1
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DK.

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Oh, yes.

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A wild DK.

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In the wild.

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Oh, we are live.

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And we're all in the wild now.

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In person.

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Great to have you back.

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It's been a minute, yeah.

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Great to have you back, DK.

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Thank you.

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In a while, DK has been spotted.

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Welcome to the Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

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We're back.

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Is this like number 63?

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I wasn't counting.

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I think it's around there.

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Yeah.

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How do you have this count?

20
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You always seem to be quoting the numbers.

21
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Oh, I don't know.

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I just saw like I saw 61 at some point.

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I think it's been two weeks.

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So, 61 bluff, 2, 63.

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He's got Oribot tracking.

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But, I mean, that's like, we're over 100 hours of yapping away with each other.

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So, that's pretty good.

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Our Friday yap.

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I love it.

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You wanted to tell us.

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I'm going to talk about these guys again.

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The University of Iowa.

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Why is it that we should be at Iowa?

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Tell us.

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I know.

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Am I sure?

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Oh, very well played, DK.

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Beat Iowa.

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I'm impressed.

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DK interpreters.

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Beat Iowa.

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be at Iowa because he doesn't understand sports rivalries. But yeah, let's first start with this

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shirt because like so many people don't understand the bitter rivalry between state schools like

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Iowa and Iowa State. In a state like Iowa, there's no professional sports. So the whole, like if you

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are a sports fan, you are the best games in town or Iowa State. And yeah, the state split. I mean,

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If you go to, like, unlike the Bay Area, if you go to Iowa, you've got, like, flags in your yard.

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Your whole car is covered with either Cyclones or Hawkeye emblems and logos.

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Every article of clothing you wear is this.

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Like, this is a daily wear shirt in Iowa.

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Yeah, so, well, I went back in December.

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I'm sure we talked about it.

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Yeah, of course.

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Back to Iowa.

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Whirlwind tour.

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We played Iowa.

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Yeah.

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I bought the Beat Iowa shirt for that game.

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Yeah.

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I'm wearing it now, though.

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Because I'm getting a little nervous.

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First of all, we have a huge game tonight.

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You got Tennessee, right?

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We got Tennessee.

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Iowa State.

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I'm from Tennessee.

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I'm not a Tennessee fan.

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I hope you guys just...

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Good.

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We'll take as many fans as possible.

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We played Tennessee tonight in the Sweet 16.

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Yep.

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We won our first two games in the tournament last weekend by over 50 points.

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Yeah.

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We just demolished both teams, including Blue Blood, Kentucky.

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We handed Kentucky the worst loss they've had in the tournament in like 50 or 60 years.

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Yeah. To be fair, their coach is kind of suspect.

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And we don't even have our best player.

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Our best player got injured two minutes into the first round game,

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which is devastating.

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Yeah, that's crazy.

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Iowa State is just like the epitome of bad luck.

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Because we don't have a final four.

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The epitome of great luck. You guys are awesome no matter what.

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Well, we'll see as the competition gets better.

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But we don't have a final four caliber team every year, right?

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Maybe every decade.

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About every decade we have that caliber of team.

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2014, we have that caliber of team.

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and George Niang, who's played in the NBA ever since then,

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goes down to the first round with an injury

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that put him out of the tournament.

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And we still made it to Sweet 16,

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but then we lost to the eventual national champion.

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Let's hope that doesn't occur this year.

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Let's win the Sweet 16.

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Even more pressure on us

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because the Iowa Hawkeyes played last night in the Sweet 16.

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Oh, really?

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They advanced to the Elite Eight.

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Iowa?

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Iowa Hawkeyes.

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Damn, I thought they were pretty bad.

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The Iowa Hawkeyes have not made the Sweet 16

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since Bill Clinton.

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30 years, yeah.

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Bill Clinton was president.

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As an Iowa State fan, we love saying that.

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Yeah.

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We love telling Hawkeye fans,

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you have not been in the Sweet 16 since Bill Clinton was president.

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Did they get a new coach?

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Like, how did they do this?

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They got a new coach.

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So Fran McCaffrey was their coach for 15 seasons.

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He won a total of four tournament games.

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How the hell did he keep his job?

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It was perfect as an Iowa State fan.

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He was just good enough.

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Yeah.

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Just good enough.

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They hired a new coach, Ben McCollum,

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and like, gotta give him credit.

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He's good.

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They had a good season.

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Like at the game I went back for,

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like we barely beat them.

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We were down by like 20 points to them.

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So it was shaky, but we beat them.

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And then Iowa upset number one seed Florida last weekend.

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That's crazy.

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And then they beat Nebraska last night.

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And they're good too.

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So the last thing I can possibly suffer

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is like Iowa State not making the Elite Eight

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and Iowa making the Elite Eight.

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That was a disaster.

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And we've not been to the Elite Eight

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since the year 2000,

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in which I went to that game

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in Auburn Hills, Michigan.

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So I'll be reading for you,

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and not to bring up any potential bad news,

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but what do you think of this talk

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of Iowa State coach going to UNC?

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Yeah.

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Real?

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TJ, our coach, shot it down,

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but we'll see.

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I don't think he'll leave.

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Yeah.

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Fingers crossed.

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One time...

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His wife is an Iowa State

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Hall of Fame basketball player.

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She also played basketball at my high school.

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Well, if you're from the area.

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And he's been a coach of some form at Iowa State for 13 years,

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three different stints.

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He loves Iowa State.

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So the one time we had a great, great coach at Memphis

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was under John Calipari.

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And I have to say, for 15-plus years since he left,

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it's all been downhill.

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But I really didn't care for Coach Cal.

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I had a lot of sort of animosity.

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Now you love him.

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This year, for the first time, I don't know what it is.

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He came to an exhibition game in Memphis.

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I'm feeling the Cal love also.

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Memphis is so damn bad.

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I got to root for somebody.

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And I was like, you know what?

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I'm just going to root for Cal.

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And I've been enjoying the Darius Akev show last night.

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I watched a little bit of that game.

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That was bad.

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Yeah, you picked Arkansas to win it all.

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I know.

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That didn't work out.

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Now you got to see how good Arizona is.

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And you can see why when Iowa State took them to a buzzer beater,

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how good we had to play.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Arizona's dominant.

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Yeah.

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So, anyways.

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Anyway.

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DK, what are your thoughts?

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Everyone needs to be rooting for Iowa State.

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Yeah, point-based mortgages.

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All right.

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The good news for people who hate the Iowa State talk,

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the worst case.

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Do they exist?

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The worst case is we make the Final Four.

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You'll hear it one more time.

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One more time and it's done.

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Until next year.

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Actually, if we win the national championship,

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you're going to hear about it.

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I guarantee it.

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Every show we're going to talk about.

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This shirt won't come off until June.

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Anyway, but back to beat Iowa.

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It is set up so we could potentially play Iowa

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in the national championship game,

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which would be like the rest of the nation.

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It would be the worst TV ratings ever

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because no one else would care.

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But the entire state of Iowa would be rocking.

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The entire audience of the city of Bitcoin Jam

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would be there and ready.

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Alive.

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Alive, yeah.

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Alrighty.

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Do you want to talk Coinbase?

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Coinbase loans.

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We don't have to get right there.

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We don't have to get right there.

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That's a great transition.

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Yeah, and we have no live audience chiming in either.

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The lone fan of Iowa State and Bitcoin

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is not listening to Bitcoin.

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If you are, please chime in.

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let us know

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oh

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that's pretty quiet

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so far

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podcast starts

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on sports bill

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it's

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oh Vinny

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Vinny

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Vinny

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Vinny

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so you guys

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leave us off

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you guys should get

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this kicked off

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and then I'll just

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wander in 10 minutes in

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yeah

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when I finally

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we'll start the

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Iowa State Talk

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at 11.50

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okay

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exactly

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okay so

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this Coinbase

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mortgages thing

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I've seen it

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I've seen it

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all over the news

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I've seen the headlines

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but I haven't actually

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read anything about it

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But I think, Steve, you've got a better...

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I know a little bit about it.

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Yeah.

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Okay, tell us.

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00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,260
Well, I mean, the eye-popping thing about...

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I mean, Coinbase already supported loans,

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and there's a zillion other lending companies.

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We've talked about many of them on the show.

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What was eye-popping about this is

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it's a Bitcoin collateral,

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you know, Bitcoin-backed loan.

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But if the price of Bitcoin goes down,

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you don't have to pony up more Bitcoin.

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Yeah, that's a pretty big deal.

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That's the eye-popping thing.

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So the volatility, then you're insulated against the volatility.

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Yeah.

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So my understanding is the only way you lose your Bitcoin

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is if you don't pay the loan back.

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And I think if you're 60 days late or something like that,

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that's when you could lose your collateral.

279
00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:05,360
But otherwise, you're not going to get margin called.

280
00:08:05,580 --> 00:08:08,900
And my understanding, and again, I just was kind of reading the headlines

281
00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:11,500
plus a little bit of detail, but maybe you can set up,

282
00:08:11,900 --> 00:08:13,600
how does this product work?

283
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,260
I thought it had some mix of traditional down payment

284
00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:21,480
or your Bitcoin is used as down payment but collateral

285
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,140
for the rest of the value?

286
00:08:23,340 --> 00:08:24,260
What's the sort of mix?

287
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,460
One question is how can they tolerate that risk?

288
00:08:30,580 --> 00:08:34,960
And the LTV is I think like 40%.

289
00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:40,540
So if you want $200K, you've got to put up $500K of Bitcoin.

290
00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:43,140
So that's probably how they calculated like,

291
00:08:43,140 --> 00:09:02,700
Okay. I mean, it's actually a really interesting position for Coinbase to take, which is they're basically saying we don't think Bitcoin price is going to dip more than that much. And so I think that's a pretty interesting risk-adjusted decision by them.

292
00:09:02,700 --> 00:09:21,420
I've seen mortgages before. I think Ledin or some of these other companies had some sort of mortgage products where you take the value of the home and you deposit the same value of the home in Bitcoin. So you basically have the full value of the home as collateral and the full value of Bitcoin as collateral. And then I think they gave good terms. Is this similar?

293
00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:27,480
One thing I don't know yet is if Coinbase and their lending partner,

294
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,420
which I think was named Better,

295
00:09:29,780 --> 00:09:33,380
I don't know if they take a lien against a home or not.

296
00:09:33,620 --> 00:09:36,560
I don't know if it's strictly Bitcoin or both.

297
00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:40,980
And I also don't know how that works if you have two lenders

298
00:09:40,980 --> 00:09:43,760
both with liens against a home.

299
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,160
Do you know how that works offhand?

300
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,240
No, so I actually have a bit more context on this.

301
00:09:47,420 --> 00:09:49,340
I was talking with Claude quite a bit about this

302
00:09:49,340 --> 00:09:50,940
because I'm actually, as you guys know,

303
00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:53,040
potentially one day thinking getting

304
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,040
a house. I'm actually very curious about how this

305
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:55,260
works.

306
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,020
My understanding is there's a few innovations here.

307
00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,060
I think the way the loan works is the better

308
00:10:01,060 --> 00:10:03,020
or whatever the name is, better home, is that's

309
00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:05,160
the home loan. Coinbase is doing a Bitcoin

310
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,060
loan. I don't know. My understanding

311
00:10:07,060 --> 00:10:09,080
was better had the home lien, but

312
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,000
I don't know how Coinbase gets

313
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,220
their backing on that. But the interesting innovation

314
00:10:13,220 --> 00:10:14,960
to me was there's a 40% LTV,

315
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,180
so you can't get liquidated

316
00:10:17,180 --> 00:10:19,220
or margin call. That's interesting. Someone's eating that risk.

317
00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:25,960
But what's also interesting to me, the real, real breakthrough is these loans can be purchased by Frannie Mae.

318
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,020
And so that is big because that's government-backed.

319
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:29,520
Fannie Mae.

320
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:30,480
Yeah, sorry.

321
00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:30,880
Or Freddie Mac.

322
00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:31,680
Fannie Mae.

323
00:10:32,180 --> 00:10:33,340
Freddie Mae.

324
00:10:33,660 --> 00:10:33,840
Freddie Mae.

325
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:34,940
It's 2026.

326
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,360
They've now merged.

327
00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:38,040
You know, it's confusing these days.

328
00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:39,400
Their gender and all that.

329
00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:39,960
But anyway.

330
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,060
It's conforming only, right?

331
00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:46,220
No, it's Fannie Mae.

332
00:10:46,420 --> 00:10:46,840
Fannie Mae.

333
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,560
And so that's effectively government backstop.

334
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:50,620
So that's a really big deal

335
00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:52,320
because they're not really taking the risk.

336
00:10:52,420 --> 00:10:55,180
At some level, I don't know exactly how the contracts

337
00:10:55,180 --> 00:10:57,420
and the status lien, but at some level,

338
00:10:57,660 --> 00:11:01,120
if the loan fails, including if Bitcoin goes to zero,

339
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:02,960
it's effectively a government bailout,

340
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,260
is the way I read it.

341
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,920
Which is huge because the government thinks Bitcoin's going to zero.

342
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,620
I had a conversation with our friend Nisha about this.

343
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:12,900
He helped me understand it better.

344
00:11:12,980 --> 00:11:15,480
But one thing I was trying to figure out is like,

345
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,200
who's the customer of this, right?

346
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:19,360
And the knee jerk is like,

347
00:11:19,420 --> 00:11:20,360
well, if you have a bunch of Bitcoin,

348
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,100
then you'd be a customer.

349
00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:27,600
But where I got to is that it makes sense for,

350
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,540
it makes sense to do it for a down payment,

351
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,380
but not for the rest of the home.

352
00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:38,640
And I say that because it is more expensive.

353
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,360
It's not like a crazy high interest rate.

354
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,500
It's actually like quite compelling interest rate,

355
00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:47,120
but it is higher than you can get with a traditional loan.

356
00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:50,320
With a traditional loan, if I can get a cheaper traditional loan,

357
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,560
which is based on home collateral and my income stream

358
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:56,660
or the belief that I'm going to keep making money,

359
00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,200
why wouldn't I do that?

360
00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:02,500
So maybe one, if you don't have a job,

361
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,120
like you have wealth,

362
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,420
but you don't have any kind of evidence of income stream,

363
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,940
like home lenders usually freak out about that

364
00:12:09,940 --> 00:12:11,600
because it's relatively rare.

365
00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:13,840
So that would be one reason.

366
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:22,860
Or if you have a job and maybe you have, well, you don't have, the only money you have for a down payment is your Bitcoin and you don't want to sell it.

367
00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:24,220
That's obviously a reason too.

368
00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:34,120
And a lot of Bitcoin holders would be more than happy to pay a point and a half more to not pay taxes on their Bitcoin holdings, but also have exposure to Bitcoin.

369
00:12:34,260 --> 00:12:37,760
They think it's going to appreciate more than the extra interest they're paying.

370
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,700
Yeah. I mean, I think my understanding was this was specifically targeted for that down payment use case.

371
00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:44,740
like, you know, maybe you put 20% down.

372
00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:46,900
And I think, yeah, I mean, to me,

373
00:12:47,340 --> 00:12:50,900
I think it probably makes sense for people that are,

374
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:52,720
I mean, like if anyone's like completely living

375
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:53,760
on a Bitcoin standard or something,

376
00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:54,760
they don't want to sell their Bitcoin,

377
00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:56,420
they want to, you know, get a down payment.

378
00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,120
And perhaps, you know, if for the very, very high end,

379
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,040
I think you can already get some of this lending

380
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:03,080
against your Bitcoin, like you're saying,

381
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:05,700
but this is probably targeted towards that mid stage

382
00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:07,240
where they probably don't have enough cash

383
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:08,600
to buy the whole house of cash anywhere.

384
00:13:08,740 --> 00:13:10,300
If they do, that's like, that would be a stretch.

385
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,240
But the down payment, okay.

386
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,060
you want to sell your Bitcoin, this allows me to get started.

387
00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:22,560
And are you using that as the Bitcoin with the 40% LTV is being used as effectively the down payment?

388
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:24,140
It's a collateral for the down payment.

389
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,700
It's collateral that gets you cash that you then use as the down payment.

390
00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:29,860
So yeah, to make the math easy, you can buy a million dollar home,

391
00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:31,680
you need to put a $200,000 payment down.

392
00:13:31,820 --> 00:13:34,400
You would need to put up $500,000 in Bitcoin as collateral.

393
00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:36,460
You get $200,000 cash, which pays that low.

394
00:13:36,740 --> 00:13:40,940
I see. And then that $500,000, if it were to drop to $100,000, you can't get called.

395
00:13:40,940 --> 00:13:41,300
Yeah.

396
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,260
Which is actually, it's very reasonable.

397
00:13:44,260 --> 00:13:46,360
Well, that's the big aha moment.

398
00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:50,400
And then also just a competitive rate, too.

399
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:51,000
Right.

400
00:13:51,180 --> 00:13:53,140
And that rate will come down because to me,

401
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,540
so the two big ahas are that

402
00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:56,920
and the fact that Fannie Mae is underwriting these loans.

403
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,660
Because that means the government is effectively taking a position

404
00:13:59,660 --> 00:14:00,740
of Bitcoin's not going to zero.

405
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,000
And if it does, we're going to bail you out.

406
00:14:02,260 --> 00:14:03,180
That's a really big deal.

407
00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:04,980
So that means they've also just stamped this.

408
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,480
And, you know, Coinbase products is the first one.

409
00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:09,360
But, like, I would expect to see, you know, a lot of these products.

410
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:15,040
It's also kind of saying we don't believe the real estate market will drop by more than 20% or something, right?

411
00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:17,980
Because ultimately, the house is still a piece of collateral.

412
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:18,760
The biggest piece.

413
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:19,180
Yeah.

414
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:21,060
So.

415
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:28,120
So, but does Coinbase face risk there?

416
00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,800
Or is it just better slash Fannie Mae taking that risk?

417
00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:32,420
That's a good question.

418
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:33,140
I don't know how that structure.

419
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:41,800
Like let's say Bitcoin appreciates, but real estate plunges, then who's winning, who's losing?

420
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:42,520
That's a good point.

421
00:14:42,580 --> 00:14:43,380
Who's holding the bags?

422
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,760
Well, the loan is probably from Better that gets bought by Fannie Mae, so their backstop

423
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:48,320
Better is.

424
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,360
The down payment came from Coinbase.

425
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:56,820
I guess if Coinbase holds that loan, or I don't know if they're able to offload that

426
00:14:56,820 --> 00:15:00,500
one, the Bitcoin one or not, but if they hold it, they have a risk.

427
00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:00,780
Right.

428
00:15:00,780 --> 00:15:16,660
So I guess if I'm the homeowner, I have this million dollar home in this example, and let's say that $500,000 of Bitcoin goes to like $2 million, but the home price goes to $200,000 or something crazy.

429
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:22,520
I'm still obligated to pay back the loan, and I am in a position to do it.

430
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,840
So I assume they can, if I'm not making my payments,

431
00:15:28,140 --> 00:15:32,000
then they'll take the Bitcoin and they're fine.

432
00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:36,280
Exactly what the agreement is between better and Coinbase is unclear,

433
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,920
but I assume it's not like one wins and one loses.

434
00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:40,340
Right.

435
00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:43,060
I'm also curious, one other question I have is in that world,

436
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,920
let's say the Bitcoin price goes up dramatically,

437
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,680
so they're not going to margin call you, but can you withdraw Bitcoin?

438
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,080
So let's say Bitcoin jumps from 70 to 140K,

439
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,000
can you take out

440
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:52,420
half your stack.

441
00:15:52,420 --> 00:15:52,720
That's interesting

442
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,380
because if you can't

443
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:55,120
then they

444
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:56,620
have this way

445
00:15:56,620 --> 00:15:57,580
excess collateral

446
00:15:57,580 --> 00:15:59,260
thing they can play with.

447
00:15:59,260 --> 00:15:59,480
Yeah,

448
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,560
that was my first thought.

449
00:16:00,660 --> 00:16:01,240
Financial engineering

450
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,580
with that extra value.

451
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,000
And that seems like

452
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:04,800
probably a way

453
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:05,300
we get into

454
00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:07,200
some shenanigans.

455
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:08,200
And then was it stated

456
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:08,880
like who

457
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,040
is Coinbase

458
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,200
costing

459
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,400
the Bitcoin

460
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:14,800
and like

461
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:15,340
control

462
00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:16,260
like you can't

463
00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:17,660
withdraw it

464
00:16:17,660 --> 00:16:18,340
or you can't go

465
00:16:18,340 --> 00:16:19,640
you can't sell it

466
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,420
you can't withdraw it

467
00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:21,580
you can't use it in any way.

468
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,440
You can keep it in a Coinbase Prime account or wallet.

469
00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:24,760
Yeah.

470
00:16:25,420 --> 00:16:26,300
It sounds a little bit,

471
00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:26,520
I mean,

472
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,240
I'm just thinking about it related to like MicroStrategy

473
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:31,560
because MicroStrategy has

474
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,120
very different types of products and offering

475
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,140
but kind of similar beliefs,

476
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:35,700
which is like,

477
00:16:36,020 --> 00:16:37,540
you believe Bitcoin is going to go up

478
00:16:37,540 --> 00:16:38,680
kind of indefinitely,

479
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,140
then you can pay some people

480
00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:43,620
11% or 11.5% yield

481
00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:45,800
and you can kind of capture the excess,

482
00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:46,540
remove it around

483
00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:47,540
and shift that to,

484
00:16:47,540 --> 00:16:47,900
you know,

485
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,140
common stockholder or something.

486
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:50,180
So it feels like you kind of,

487
00:16:50,420 --> 00:17:00,900
This is a little bit of like that same shifting around, you know, the yields and the balance expectations if you kind of believe that Bitcoin is going up relative to the dollar.

488
00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:04,340
Austin asks if it's just Bitcoin only.

489
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:09,240
I believe they also stated USDC, but I don't really understand that, to be honest.

490
00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:14,560
The whole thesis we just laid out for why it would make sense for certain customers with Bitcoin.

491
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,360
It's premised on you believe Bitcoin is going to appreciate.

492
00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:20,060
and with USDC,

493
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:22,640
it's not going to depreciate

494
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:23,860
and the only thing it could do

495
00:17:23,860 --> 00:17:26,160
is go to zero in some tail risk scenario,

496
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:27,840
unlikely tail risk scenario.

497
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,700
Well, they get better than market interest rate.

498
00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:35,580
If the market rate is whatever it is,

499
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:36,320
5% or 6%,

500
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,040
then they get 6.5% or 7%.

501
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,920
But why would you do that?

502
00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:43,160
Why would the customer?

503
00:17:44,380 --> 00:17:46,920
Well, if the customer happens to hold a bunch of USDC.

504
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,640
Why would this converge in dollars?

505
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,560
Why not just use that to pay the down payment?

506
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:53,920
You're assuming everybody's rational.

507
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,340
I don't see the...

508
00:17:57,340 --> 00:18:00,180
When I talk with Claude, I don't know if this is real,

509
00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:03,760
but it suggests that you could still get 80% of the value at USDC.

510
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:04,920
So it's strictly worse.

511
00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:09,640
It's like I post $100,000 in USDC and get $80,000 in cash.

512
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,660
I don't know.

513
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,480
This is converting USDC to old school dollars.

514
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:15,640
Is that a taxable amount?

515
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,580
Well, there's no gains.

516
00:18:18,740 --> 00:18:19,320
That's what I'm saying.

517
00:18:19,460 --> 00:18:22,100
So that just frankly makes zero sense to me.

518
00:18:22,220 --> 00:18:22,880
I don't think that would be that.

519
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,240
I assume you could use treasuries as collateral

520
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,620
and get almost 100% loan-to-value on it?

521
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:30,320
Potentially.

522
00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:31,880
But I mean, that's obviously higher end.

523
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,020
I think that's what they're saying.

524
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:35,340
They're trying to democratize a lot of these lending practices.

525
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,420
And I think eventually it mentioned that they were going to try

526
00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:41,200
and start moving beyond Bitcoin to things like,

527
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,860
yeah, like whatever tokenized crap.

528
00:18:44,860 --> 00:18:49,360
It's interesting they didn't choose to use ETH or something.

529
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:49,940
Well, obviously.

530
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:52,920
Well, not so obvious.

531
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,120
I think it's very interesting, right?

532
00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:01,900
Especially, well, like, the further out you go on the altcoins.

533
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:02,600
Risk spectrum.

534
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:03,420
Risk spectrum.

535
00:19:03,660 --> 00:19:06,080
Fartcoin is not legitimate collateral for 20 men?

536
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,520
The less surprising it is.

537
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,000
But Ethereum is one that you can certainly make the case

538
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,180
that you believe in its...

539
00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:17,000
People talk about it as if it's a blue chip.

540
00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:18,740
Including Brian Armstrong.

541
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:24,240
Blue chip and that the price isn't going to fall out from under it.

542
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840
So it's very interesting that it chose not to support Ethereum

543
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,800
or Solana or any coin like that.

544
00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:33,780
Obviously, we would not want to do that

545
00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:36,620
if we were running the company or that or a similar situation.

546
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:38,860
So it's just, it's actually,

547
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,180
I think the most interesting thing

548
00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:43,280
is their endorsement.

549
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,780
Their Coinbase's endorsement

550
00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:47,120
and the government's endorsement

551
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:48,860
of Bitcoin and not other coins.

552
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:49,460
I agree.

553
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,980
Like, Bitcoiners should just be jumping

554
00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:53,320
all over that.

555
00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:53,700
It's huge.

556
00:19:54,260 --> 00:19:56,140
Singing from on high about how,

557
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,560
what a powerful message that is.

558
00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,340
I mean, it shows, right?

559
00:19:59,420 --> 00:20:00,300
Like, follow what people do,

560
00:20:00,380 --> 00:20:00,980
not what they say.

561
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:02,560
Like, Brian Armstrong may talk about

562
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,000
ETH and shitcoins all day long,

563
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,000
but when it comes to like,

564
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,160
oh shit, am I going to bet my company

565
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,040
on this thing going down?

566
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,140
Bitcoin's the only one.

567
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,540
It's also really nice to see

568
00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:12,200
a more sustainable

569
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,880
quote legitimate use case of

570
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,880
buying a home. This really seems

571
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,860
like a credible product for people to buy

572
00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:20,940
homes and not just get loans

573
00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:22,280
to go trade meme coins.

574
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,340
Which is, you know,

575
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:26,560
I'm not going to shit on that use case.

576
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,720
People like to gamble. I don't have an issue

577
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,820
with gambling and it also can bootstrap new

578
00:20:30,820 --> 00:20:32,840
stuff. It's just nice to actually see stuff

579
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,340
being bootstrapped now that is

580
00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:36,640
a little bit more positive

581
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:37,700
for society, I think.

582
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:38,700
What if they took out

583
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:39,740
a loan against their Bitcoin

584
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:40,620
to bet on Iowa State?

585
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,300
I don't do sports funding.

586
00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:43,700
That's good.

587
00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:45,240
In fact, Iowa State got...

588
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:46,300
You really want me to go

589
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:46,960
on Iowa State again?

590
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,660
We had a huge sport

591
00:20:48,660 --> 00:20:49,760
gambling scandal

592
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:50,640
a few years ago

593
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,680
and our starting quarterback

594
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:52,620
got kicked off the team.

595
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:53,500
Anyway.

596
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,180
You were asking about

597
00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:56,280
who's the customer.

598
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:57,640
That makes me wonder,

599
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,440
does this generally compete

600
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,160
with customers

601
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,240
for some of the...

602
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:02,820
What were those other

603
00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:04,020
home lending?

604
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:04,360
Yeah.

605
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:05,540
I wanted to bring that up too.

606
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:06,240
That's a great question.

607
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:06,540
Yeah.

608
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,880
I mean, our friend Sanjay has one of them.

609
00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:13,120
And then our friends who have spent some time

610
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:14,220
at Presidio Bitcoin have another.

611
00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:14,620
Yeah.

612
00:21:15,820 --> 00:21:19,420
So I think those two companies definitely need

613
00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:22,480
to be analyzing this situation

614
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,760
because while it's not a direct competitor,

615
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,260
it has a lot of similarities.

616
00:21:27,780 --> 00:21:29,700
You know, someone who fits a profile of

617
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,960
they own some Bitcoin or they want to own some Bitcoin

618
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,300
and they don't want to have

619
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,500
all their wealth tied up into home equity.

620
00:21:40,860 --> 00:21:44,220
Or they want at least some of what notionally

621
00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:46,380
would have been in home equity in Bitcoin.

622
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:49,620
And you can achieve that two different ways now.

623
00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:51,200
Yeah, I think there's also just people

624
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,200
that maybe frankly, you know,

625
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,840
don't want to deal with like figuring out,

626
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,440
like there's, it's complex.

627
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,160
If you've got Bitcoin and it's, you know,

628
00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:01,480
self-custody or it's in one exchange

629
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:02,680
or another exchange and you have to fill it

630
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,120
with the capital gains tax and tracking,

631
00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:05,140
it's just like a pain in the ass.

632
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:06,680
And I don't know.

633
00:22:06,740 --> 00:22:09,000
I think a lot of people are probably just trying to kick that can down the road.

634
00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:12,640
One interesting stat, I think in one of these articles we said,

635
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,300
is that the better lenders estimated that they had lost some huge amount,

636
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,200
like $40 billion in generated volume from not offering a Bitcoin backbone.

637
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:23,720
How they got those numbers, I don't know.

638
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:24,340
Oh, I didn't.

639
00:22:24,580 --> 00:22:25,460
Yeah, but it's clear.

640
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:26,500
$40 billion?

641
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:27,140
I think so.

642
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:27,740
I think it was huge.

643
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:28,680
I mean, whatever.

644
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,580
Don't quote me on that.

645
00:22:29,740 --> 00:22:30,540
That sounds almost too good.

646
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:31,540
That's like a missed revenue opportunity?

647
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:32,400
Yeah, basically.

648
00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:35,020
$40,000 million home.

649
00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:36,220
I guess, yeah.

650
00:22:37,380 --> 00:22:37,720
Wow.

651
00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:39,440
I don't know if that's true, but it seems reasonable.

652
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,420
I guess it works out.

653
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:52,634
If there 100 million American to own Bitcoin and maybe or so obviously there a range of how much those people own

654
00:22:52,734 --> 00:22:55,934
but 40,000 is a small percentage of...

655
00:22:55,934 --> 00:22:58,074
Is that the generally accepted

656
00:22:58,074 --> 00:22:59,514
or expected number right now?

657
00:22:59,594 --> 00:23:00,014
About a million?

658
00:23:00,874 --> 00:23:02,034
Or a million Americans?

659
00:23:02,954 --> 00:23:04,614
So a third American in Bitcoin.

660
00:23:05,314 --> 00:23:07,014
I think it's even more.

661
00:23:07,174 --> 00:23:07,554
Really?

662
00:23:07,794 --> 00:23:08,014
Yeah.

663
00:23:08,254 --> 00:23:09,154
I didn't realize it was that high.

664
00:23:09,454 --> 00:23:09,634
Yeah.

665
00:23:09,834 --> 00:23:10,114
Wow.

666
00:23:10,574 --> 00:23:11,634
Where does that come from?

667
00:23:11,834 --> 00:23:12,354
How do you...

668
00:23:12,654 --> 00:23:16,034
my blockchain analysis

669
00:23:16,034 --> 00:23:18,134
Steve analysis

670
00:23:18,134 --> 00:23:19,294
yeah exactly

671
00:23:19,294 --> 00:23:23,774
well I mean

672
00:23:23,774 --> 00:23:26,294
like Coinbase accounts

673
00:23:26,294 --> 00:23:28,174
Cash App accounts

674
00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,314
like that's two big drivers of it

675
00:23:30,314 --> 00:23:30,534
right

676
00:23:30,534 --> 00:23:35,854
I'll be curious to see if other people

677
00:23:35,854 --> 00:23:36,474
I mean

678
00:23:36,474 --> 00:23:40,494
I forget the exact sources but certainly Coinbase is one source

679
00:23:40,494 --> 00:23:42,114
but there's others as well I think it's a credible

680
00:23:42,114 --> 00:23:43,814
I think it's a credible number

681
00:23:43,814 --> 00:23:45,234
because you can imagine how you can

682
00:23:45,234 --> 00:23:47,754
just adding up Coinbase and Cash App

683
00:23:47,754 --> 00:23:49,074
gets you a long ways there.

684
00:23:49,274 --> 00:23:49,934
I wouldn't have guessed that

685
00:23:49,934 --> 00:23:50,494
because I mean

686
00:23:50,494 --> 00:23:51,774
there's how many?

687
00:23:51,854 --> 00:23:53,814
330 million Americans or something?

688
00:23:53,914 --> 00:23:54,474
Something like that.

689
00:23:54,674 --> 00:23:55,394
And you know

690
00:23:55,394 --> 00:23:56,354
not all adults

691
00:23:56,354 --> 00:23:57,434
so like

692
00:23:57,434 --> 00:23:58,594
are we getting to the point

693
00:23:58,594 --> 00:23:59,694
where like 50%

694
00:23:59,694 --> 00:24:00,914
of adult Americans

695
00:24:00,914 --> 00:24:02,334
own Bitcoin?

696
00:24:03,174 --> 00:24:04,234
That would be crazy.

697
00:24:04,674 --> 00:24:05,214
I mean because

698
00:24:05,214 --> 00:24:07,414
I would have a hard time

699
00:24:07,414 --> 00:24:07,994
believing that.

700
00:24:08,334 --> 00:24:08,954
100 million.

701
00:24:09,414 --> 00:24:09,654
Alright.

702
00:24:10,254 --> 00:24:10,754
I'll look it up.

703
00:24:10,754 --> 00:24:11,854
100 million is a big number.

704
00:24:11,854 --> 00:24:14,414
I'll bet that it's at least 50 million.

705
00:24:14,594 --> 00:24:15,214
Anyone in the chat?

706
00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:16,494
What are your guys' numbers?

707
00:24:16,854 --> 00:24:17,174
How many?

708
00:24:17,274 --> 00:24:18,974
I mean, if I had not been influenced,

709
00:24:19,054 --> 00:24:21,254
I would have guessed 10, 20 million.

710
00:24:21,634 --> 00:24:24,694
I would have guessed probably like 50, 50 million.

711
00:24:25,474 --> 00:24:25,614
Okay.

712
00:24:25,854 --> 00:24:28,414
But like there's how many kids are there?

713
00:24:28,414 --> 00:24:30,174
How many under 18, you know?

714
00:24:30,274 --> 00:24:31,494
How many of them are using MDK?

715
00:24:34,234 --> 00:24:34,814
How many?

716
00:24:34,974 --> 00:24:37,014
Like 20, I don't know, 20%, 25%.

717
00:24:37,014 --> 00:24:37,274
Yeah.

718
00:24:37,454 --> 00:24:37,694
Okay.

719
00:24:38,334 --> 00:24:40,114
So you're cutting down 330 million.

720
00:24:40,114 --> 00:24:43,074
So it's like 270 million or something adults.

721
00:24:43,474 --> 00:24:43,594
Yeah.

722
00:24:43,994 --> 00:24:45,714
And so if you're 100 million, you're like approaching.

723
00:24:46,074 --> 00:24:46,314
Yeah.

724
00:24:46,854 --> 00:24:47,874
Kind of crazy if that's true.

725
00:24:48,394 --> 00:24:51,994
I mean, I remember the study that showed like it was huge ownership in the South.

726
00:24:52,134 --> 00:24:57,234
28% Americans own Bitcoin.

727
00:24:57,674 --> 00:24:58,994
I mean, if that's true, like over the third.

728
00:24:59,054 --> 00:25:02,554
330, 160, 80 to 90 million.

729
00:25:02,854 --> 00:25:03,094
Wow.

730
00:25:03,514 --> 00:25:03,714
Wow.

731
00:25:04,734 --> 00:25:07,034
Well, here it says implies 55 million.

732
00:25:07,894 --> 00:25:08,734
And this is everything.

733
00:25:08,734 --> 00:25:10,474
Like, this is ETFs and stuff like that.

734
00:25:10,954 --> 00:25:11,714
I'm sure it's all.

735
00:25:11,894 --> 00:25:15,274
Yeah, I mean, it includes people with $5 of a coin in a cash app account, too.

736
00:25:15,914 --> 00:25:27,174
So it's not like there's 60 million Americans who have $500,000 of Bitcoin to take a loan for a million dollar home.

737
00:25:28,054 --> 00:25:34,874
But getting back to, is it credible that there's 40,000, they lost out, better lost out on 40,000 homes?

738
00:25:35,094 --> 00:25:35,374
Probably.

739
00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:35,974
Yeah.

740
00:25:36,034 --> 00:25:36,534
Reasonable, yeah.

741
00:25:36,534 --> 00:25:36,854
It does.

742
00:25:36,934 --> 00:25:38,054
It doesn't seem outlandish.

743
00:25:38,154 --> 00:25:38,314
Yeah.

744
00:25:38,314 --> 00:25:39,334
So huge market.

745
00:25:39,594 --> 00:25:41,274
I'm curious if other people, like startups

746
00:25:41,274 --> 00:25:43,014
or even other companies, like a company like A River

747
00:25:43,014 --> 00:25:44,554
or something will offer something like this,

748
00:25:44,814 --> 00:25:46,694
or if this is going to be the kind of thing where,

749
00:25:47,114 --> 00:25:49,714
yeah, I mean, it's like if you don't have that relationship

750
00:25:49,714 --> 00:25:50,594
with like Frannie Mae,

751
00:25:50,894 --> 00:25:52,534
but I guess they're just a regulatory agency,

752
00:25:52,654 --> 00:25:54,714
but it's going to be very kind of like, you know,

753
00:25:54,834 --> 00:25:56,614
a few big players get to eat.

754
00:25:56,874 --> 00:25:58,734
Also, I think it's just,

755
00:25:59,094 --> 00:26:00,414
your example was a million dollar home,

756
00:26:00,474 --> 00:26:03,874
but I think the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac

757
00:26:03,874 --> 00:26:07,414
is only for conforming, which doesn't include Jumbo.

758
00:26:08,034 --> 00:26:09,194
I think that's somewhere in the...

759
00:26:09,194 --> 00:26:09,934
$750,000 is it?

760
00:26:10,174 --> 00:26:10,734
Is it that high?

761
00:26:10,814 --> 00:26:11,574
I thought it was even lower.

762
00:26:11,654 --> 00:26:12,994
I thought it was $500,000 or something.

763
00:26:14,054 --> 00:26:16,674
But it's a conforming loan, not a jumbo loan.

764
00:26:16,774 --> 00:26:17,354
What's the difference?

765
00:26:17,834 --> 00:26:21,894
Conforming just means it's a lower threshold of value of the home.

766
00:26:22,094 --> 00:26:22,374
Got it.

767
00:26:22,454 --> 00:26:25,114
So a million-dollar home probably would require a jumbo loan

768
00:26:25,114 --> 00:26:28,514
compared to like a $500,000 home or something.

769
00:26:28,514 --> 00:26:28,854
Right.

770
00:26:29,874 --> 00:26:30,634
It would be conforming.

771
00:26:31,594 --> 00:26:36,274
But I also wonder, we talked about those two.

772
00:26:37,414 --> 00:26:39,034
home equity Bitcoin startups,

773
00:26:39,214 --> 00:26:41,774
but also all the Bitcoin lending companies.

774
00:26:42,194 --> 00:26:42,634
Oh, yeah.

775
00:26:42,794 --> 00:26:43,294
It's like lava.

776
00:26:43,714 --> 00:26:45,014
I mean, I'm curious they're thinking about this.

777
00:26:45,014 --> 00:26:47,634
And Surge, and there's, you know,

778
00:26:48,054 --> 00:26:53,214
maybe like other bigger Bitcoin companies

779
00:26:53,214 --> 00:26:54,774
are considering lending or whatever,

780
00:26:54,974 --> 00:26:57,354
like River, Block, or...

781
00:26:57,354 --> 00:26:58,054
Like Square?

782
00:26:58,814 --> 00:27:00,214
Fidelity, et cetera.

783
00:27:00,854 --> 00:27:03,734
So I just wonder what startups

784
00:27:03,734 --> 00:27:06,674
and the bigger Bitcoin companies are evaluating.

785
00:27:06,674 --> 00:27:16,414
I expect everybody knows, I think we've said a couple times here, I think both JP Morgan and Schwab have come out saying they're going to let you custody Bitcoin natively on those platforms.

786
00:27:16,994 --> 00:27:21,474
And I think this year, Schwab, I think, said first half of this year, which is like within the next three months.

787
00:27:21,974 --> 00:27:26,714
Once they do that, that becomes another form of collateral that's in the TradFi system.

788
00:27:26,874 --> 00:27:31,454
You can actually hold native Bitcoin in a TradFi type account.

789
00:27:31,794 --> 00:27:31,894
Yeah.

790
00:27:32,294 --> 00:27:33,834
So things are happening.

791
00:27:33,834 --> 00:27:35,954
yeah so I think it's

792
00:27:35,954 --> 00:27:36,654
I think that's great

793
00:27:36,654 --> 00:27:39,614
also a quick

794
00:27:39,614 --> 00:27:42,194
update on de minimis tax

795
00:27:42,194 --> 00:27:44,454
but that continues to be

796
00:27:44,454 --> 00:27:45,774
unclear

797
00:27:45,774 --> 00:27:47,294
the future of that

798
00:27:47,294 --> 00:27:50,434
regulation seems

799
00:27:50,434 --> 00:27:52,014
to be headed to where they'll only do

800
00:27:52,014 --> 00:27:53,754
de minimis tax for stable coins

801
00:27:53,754 --> 00:27:54,354
which

802
00:27:54,354 --> 00:27:58,074
since stable coins don't gain or

803
00:27:58,074 --> 00:27:58,534
appreciate

804
00:27:58,534 --> 00:28:02,594
there might be some

805
00:28:02,594 --> 00:28:03,854
esoteric

806
00:28:03,854 --> 00:28:06,734
accounting reason

807
00:28:06,734 --> 00:28:08,334
or something. Because the stable coin

808
00:28:08,334 --> 00:28:10,234
can go to

809
00:28:10,234 --> 00:28:12,414
0.99956

810
00:28:12,414 --> 00:28:13,574
and 1.00.

811
00:28:14,394 --> 00:28:16,494
So maybe they want to have

812
00:28:16,494 --> 00:28:18,594
clear language there so that there's not

813
00:28:18,594 --> 00:28:20,794
this ridiculous accounting overhead

814
00:28:20,794 --> 00:28:22,494
of tiny

815
00:28:22,494 --> 00:28:23,034
fractions.

816
00:28:24,154 --> 00:28:26,174
Maybe that's the rationale for that.

817
00:28:26,314 --> 00:28:27,414
But obviously

818
00:28:27,414 --> 00:28:30,514
the real hope

819
00:28:30,514 --> 00:28:32,134
and expectation is that Bitcoin

820
00:28:32,134 --> 00:28:34,134
would be covered so you can make Bitcoin purchases

821
00:28:34,134 --> 00:28:35,314
without this

822
00:28:35,314 --> 00:28:37,974
massive overhead and

823
00:28:37,974 --> 00:28:38,914
annoyance or whatever.

824
00:28:40,354 --> 00:28:42,134
And so I think

825
00:28:42,134 --> 00:28:44,434
there's an event

826
00:28:44,434 --> 00:28:45,974
by Bitcoin Policy Institute

827
00:28:45,974 --> 00:28:47,634
this week or it's coming up

828
00:28:47,634 --> 00:28:50,114
where I think it just happened

829
00:28:50,114 --> 00:28:51,974
yesterday. But Block

830
00:28:51,974 --> 00:28:53,574
is part of it, Coinbase is part of it,

831
00:28:53,734 --> 00:28:56,134
and a few others. It's good to

832
00:28:56,134 --> 00:28:56,874
see unity

833
00:28:56,874 --> 00:28:59,594
among different crypto.

834
00:28:59,594 --> 00:29:01,514
I guess you'd expect Block

835
00:29:01,514 --> 00:29:01,854
to do it.

836
00:29:01,934 --> 00:29:02,814
Block's very, I mean,

837
00:29:02,874 --> 00:29:04,194
they enabled Bitcoin payments

838
00:29:04,194 --> 00:29:04,674
in Square.

839
00:29:05,994 --> 00:29:06,774
That's, you know,

840
00:29:06,854 --> 00:29:07,854
that's only going to take off

841
00:29:07,854 --> 00:29:09,294
if you don't have to pay capital

842
00:29:09,294 --> 00:29:11,354
to gain taxes on your payments.

843
00:29:12,034 --> 00:29:13,274
It's nice to see Coinbase

844
00:29:13,274 --> 00:29:15,374
at the table, too,

845
00:29:15,494 --> 00:29:16,754
and being...

846
00:29:16,754 --> 00:29:17,454
Do you have any sense

847
00:29:17,454 --> 00:29:18,654
of when we might hear

848
00:29:18,654 --> 00:29:19,714
this gets passed

849
00:29:19,714 --> 00:29:21,414
or, like, when this could become law?

850
00:29:23,254 --> 00:29:24,674
Hopefully this year

851
00:29:24,674 --> 00:29:26,654
before, like,

852
00:29:26,814 --> 00:29:28,414
midterm elections, right?

853
00:29:29,574 --> 00:29:31,214
So, I don't know.

854
00:29:31,214 --> 00:29:34,834
I'm still a pessimist, but we got to hope and push for it.

855
00:29:34,874 --> 00:29:35,934
But why before midterm?

856
00:29:36,034 --> 00:29:36,494
What is that?

857
00:29:37,034 --> 00:29:38,314
How does that impact it?

858
00:29:38,854 --> 00:29:39,114
I don't know.

859
00:29:39,174 --> 00:29:40,934
I mean, politics are always like,

860
00:29:41,094 --> 00:29:44,074
like America goes, you know, blue, then red, then blue, then red.

861
00:29:44,174 --> 00:29:47,294
So I just expect a switch from red to blue.

862
00:29:47,854 --> 00:29:48,234
This, uh...

863
00:29:48,234 --> 00:29:52,534
But meaning you need that type of thing to happen before midterms because...

864
00:29:52,534 --> 00:29:55,954
Because, well, Republicans control Congress right now.

865
00:29:56,834 --> 00:29:57,794
So by a thin margin.

866
00:29:57,794 --> 00:30:00,434
But so if they lose seats...

867
00:30:00,434 --> 00:30:01,034
If they lose it, then...

868
00:30:01,034 --> 00:30:02,214
then it's harder to pass things.

869
00:30:02,574 --> 00:30:05,654
Now, but I've also been told that for this specific issue,

870
00:30:06,254 --> 00:30:11,574
that there's a path to doing it just from the administration itself.

871
00:30:11,934 --> 00:30:14,554
To the degree that's true and possible,

872
00:30:14,994 --> 00:30:18,174
well, then there'd be at least two years left to do it.

873
00:30:18,514 --> 00:30:19,674
But like the Clarity Act,

874
00:30:19,854 --> 00:30:24,214
I think there's maybe even more urgency to pass that before the midterms.

875
00:30:24,494 --> 00:30:26,554
And it sounds like Clarity is,

876
00:30:26,934 --> 00:30:30,434
Coinbase is not supporting it right now because they don't like the way.

877
00:30:30,434 --> 00:30:35,194
I don't know the latest. I mean, I think Brian Erbstrag stated that maybe a month ago or something.

878
00:30:35,894 --> 00:30:38,894
I don't know where he and Coinbase sit on it now.

879
00:30:39,094 --> 00:30:41,874
I mean, it might have just been like negotiating tactic or whatever.

880
00:30:42,034 --> 00:30:45,674
And I don't know if they're back at the table and supportive again.

881
00:30:46,634 --> 00:30:51,294
But that is all about the stablecoin interest.

882
00:30:51,294 --> 00:30:53,794
Right. Being able to share the yield.

883
00:30:53,994 --> 00:30:55,574
Which my limited understanding here.

884
00:30:55,574 --> 00:31:12,034
So the Genius Act, which it did pass, explicitly doesn't allow the stablecoin issuers who are holding the treasuries and earning interest, it does not allow them to directly pay that as interest to their customers.

885
00:31:12,714 --> 00:31:17,214
And you can imagine banks don't like that because then that's very competitive too.

886
00:31:17,214 --> 00:31:39,394
Okay, so I want to actually pose a question to you guys about this because I, before, as you guys know, I've had a weird last couple of days with some dehydration stuff. But before that, I was at a friend's wedding and visiting with a friend, an entrepreneur that I backed. And we were discussing, you know, he's building, basically connecting all the different settlement systems in Latin America.

887
00:31:39,394 --> 00:31:41,374
I think there's this opportunity in lots of regions of the world.

888
00:31:41,514 --> 00:31:46,254
And then I think someone like LightSpark or a lot of other people that are working on Bitcoin payments

889
00:31:46,254 --> 00:31:50,074
see this opportunity to eventually connect all of those with Bitcoin, be the internet, ink them all up.

890
00:31:50,494 --> 00:31:53,014
We were chatting about different opportunities and it just hit me while we were chatting.

891
00:31:53,154 --> 00:31:55,314
And something I've been thinking about for a lot of my portfolio companies

892
00:31:55,314 --> 00:31:56,594
and something I want to explore with them.

893
00:31:58,174 --> 00:32:04,414
Why haven't we seen more people, particularly with these regional regulatory, whatever,

894
00:32:05,174 --> 00:32:07,374
they've already got the licenses and what they need to do,

895
00:32:07,374 --> 00:32:10,294
issuing stretched-back stablecoins.

896
00:32:10,454 --> 00:32:12,114
I mean, I think we just saw that BUCK token, right?

897
00:32:12,994 --> 00:32:14,274
I haven't seen anyone else launch.

898
00:32:14,354 --> 00:32:15,334
Maybe there have been other ones.

899
00:32:15,574 --> 00:32:16,094
But like, to me, I think...

900
00:32:16,094 --> 00:32:17,794
I think Saylor told us a few others.

901
00:32:17,974 --> 00:32:19,674
But there are even like...

902
00:32:19,674 --> 00:32:20,094
There are more.

903
00:32:20,214 --> 00:32:20,994
Didn't you mention like...

904
00:32:20,994 --> 00:32:21,474
Well, more.

905
00:32:21,694 --> 00:32:22,754
I mean, they're even more...

906
00:32:22,754 --> 00:32:24,854
They're even like tinier than BUCK.

907
00:32:25,234 --> 00:32:27,054
There's no major players.

908
00:32:27,394 --> 00:32:29,374
So I kind of wanted to pose this question to you guys.

909
00:32:29,374 --> 00:32:32,354
So imagine you're a fintech that speaks Bitcoin,

910
00:32:32,574 --> 00:32:34,514
that has, you know, relevant licensing

911
00:32:34,514 --> 00:32:35,774
or could get relevant licensing

912
00:32:35,774 --> 00:32:37,354
in different regions of the world,

913
00:32:37,534 --> 00:32:38,794
so, you know, say in the Philippines

914
00:32:38,794 --> 00:32:40,494
and Brazil and Central America,

915
00:32:41,014 --> 00:32:43,754
what would be your dream way

916
00:32:43,754 --> 00:32:46,794
to launch these stretch-backed stablecoins?

917
00:32:46,934 --> 00:32:49,414
Ideally, you know, they could be chain agnostic,

918
00:32:49,614 --> 00:32:52,134
and so, you know, if they want to move it on a solid base, fine,

919
00:32:52,474 --> 00:32:54,614
but ideally to get Lightning hooked in there as well,

920
00:32:54,694 --> 00:32:56,534
and, you know, maybe perhaps

921
00:32:56,534 --> 00:32:59,214
that's the way Lightning payments take off.

922
00:32:59,814 --> 00:33:02,314
Yeah, well, I mean,

923
00:33:02,434 --> 00:33:05,654
I'm a fan of stretch-backed stablecoins.

924
00:33:05,774 --> 00:33:07,434
And you all heard it here first in the show.

925
00:33:07,754 --> 00:33:08,234
That concept.

926
00:33:08,474 --> 00:33:09,354
Nine months ago.

927
00:33:09,414 --> 00:33:10,594
And literally, Max brought it to everyone

928
00:33:10,594 --> 00:33:12,354
right when they announced that.

929
00:33:12,474 --> 00:33:12,634
Yeah.

930
00:33:12,974 --> 00:33:13,674
So, well done.

931
00:33:15,974 --> 00:33:20,934
But, I mean, one challenge for anyone issuing it

932
00:33:20,934 --> 00:33:23,634
is just interoperability with others.

933
00:33:24,134 --> 00:33:26,254
Like, you issue that,

934
00:33:26,354 --> 00:33:29,154
like no one else is going to accept that stablecoin.

935
00:33:29,314 --> 00:33:29,474
Right.

936
00:33:29,554 --> 00:33:31,014
So then you have to do a bunch of work.

937
00:33:31,214 --> 00:33:31,414
Right.

938
00:33:31,534 --> 00:33:34,394
You have to convince Stripe and the bridge team.

939
00:33:34,394 --> 00:33:39,234
will you please swap our Zablecoin pair?

940
00:33:39,554 --> 00:33:41,034
And then you have to convince

941
00:33:41,034 --> 00:33:43,254
a gazillion financial institutions

942
00:33:43,254 --> 00:33:45,614
and wallets to accept and receive.

943
00:33:45,874 --> 00:33:47,734
So I know better than anyone,

944
00:33:48,074 --> 00:33:50,634
I know very well how hard it is

945
00:33:50,634 --> 00:33:53,174
to get people to adopt new payment protocols

946
00:33:53,174 --> 00:33:57,314
or new monies.

947
00:33:58,034 --> 00:33:58,194
Yeah.

948
00:33:58,194 --> 00:34:03,914
So even if you're like a big dog exchange

949
00:34:03,914 --> 00:34:05,454
and tiny little country.

950
00:34:05,814 --> 00:34:07,494
You don't really have a whole lot of muscle

951
00:34:07,494 --> 00:34:09,514
to get the world to adopt.

952
00:34:09,734 --> 00:34:10,574
But you don't need the world to.

953
00:34:10,734 --> 00:34:11,674
This is kind of my point.

954
00:34:11,794 --> 00:34:12,794
Imagine for a minute,

955
00:34:13,594 --> 00:34:15,334
let's say you're the big dog exchange

956
00:34:15,334 --> 00:34:16,654
in Vietnam or something.

957
00:34:17,014 --> 00:34:18,354
Oh, you're thinking of the savings use case.

958
00:34:18,454 --> 00:34:19,074
Yeah, absolutely.

959
00:34:19,234 --> 00:34:19,594
It's okay.

960
00:34:19,754 --> 00:34:20,634
We're going to issue this.

961
00:34:21,154 --> 00:34:23,694
But as part of the savings use case,

962
00:34:23,754 --> 00:34:24,674
people convert to that

963
00:34:24,674 --> 00:34:26,674
because with this you get whatever 5%.

964
00:34:26,674 --> 00:34:27,134
I agree with that.

965
00:34:27,234 --> 00:34:28,414
And you're saying because

966
00:34:28,414 --> 00:34:31,114
it may be disallowed or unclear yet,

967
00:34:31,754 --> 00:34:32,674
we don't have clarity.

968
00:34:32,954 --> 00:34:33,174
Right?

969
00:34:33,174 --> 00:34:35,494
So it's not clear how to do it here,

970
00:34:35,574 --> 00:34:36,414
but you're saying abroad.

971
00:34:36,414 --> 00:34:37,214
Doesn't matter in the United States.

972
00:34:37,354 --> 00:34:37,814
Yeah, totally.

973
00:34:37,934 --> 00:34:38,714
I'm saying like literally,

974
00:34:38,934 --> 00:34:40,594
if you've already got the kind of like,

975
00:34:40,794 --> 00:34:41,674
but holy, this is the main,

976
00:34:41,774 --> 00:34:42,494
like the more I talk about,

977
00:34:42,554 --> 00:34:43,654
I'm like, this is a really fucking good idea.

978
00:34:43,834 --> 00:34:46,414
Yeah, your port codes are all around the world.

979
00:34:47,194 --> 00:34:47,394
Okay.

980
00:34:47,574 --> 00:34:48,594
We'll see what I'm doing next week.

981
00:34:49,074 --> 00:34:50,114
I do agree.

982
00:34:51,374 --> 00:34:53,174
The strategy should be,

983
00:34:53,174 --> 00:34:55,394
use strategies, stretch,

984
00:34:55,534 --> 00:34:58,414
but focus on the savings use case for your customers.

985
00:34:58,614 --> 00:34:58,714
Right.

986
00:34:58,714 --> 00:35:00,954
And your customers might not have good options

987
00:35:00,954 --> 00:35:01,774
to hold dollars.

988
00:35:01,774 --> 00:35:07,214
This gives you dollars in a very novel way with stretch.

989
00:35:07,754 --> 00:35:14,514
And then over time, there'll be more and more connection points to do transfers.

990
00:35:14,834 --> 00:35:16,914
The network will grow over time.

991
00:35:17,254 --> 00:35:21,254
I'm not sure I fully understand what is disallowed by clarity.

992
00:35:21,734 --> 00:35:23,834
Like, if you can't give yield.

993
00:35:24,194 --> 00:35:24,794
Genius.

994
00:35:25,094 --> 00:35:27,374
So, Genius passed last year.

995
00:35:27,374 --> 00:35:27,854
Okay.

996
00:35:27,854 --> 00:35:30,814
it does not allow the

997
00:35:30,814 --> 00:35:31,874
or this is my

998
00:35:31,874 --> 00:35:33,474
I've not read the actual language

999
00:35:33,474 --> 00:35:34,994
so this is my interpretation

1000
00:35:34,994 --> 00:35:36,554
I think broadly speaking

1001
00:35:36,554 --> 00:35:37,354
it doesn't allow

1002
00:35:37,354 --> 00:35:38,914
like a

1003
00:35:38,914 --> 00:35:41,234
like Circle or Coinbase

1004
00:35:41,234 --> 00:35:42,594
to

1005
00:35:42,594 --> 00:35:44,134
directly give their

1006
00:35:44,134 --> 00:35:44,774
customers

1007
00:35:44,774 --> 00:35:46,054
interest on their

1008
00:35:46,054 --> 00:35:47,014
like if I deposit

1009
00:35:47,014 --> 00:35:48,854
dollars into

1010
00:35:48,854 --> 00:35:50,214
Coinbase

1011
00:35:50,214 --> 00:35:52,154
and now I have

1012
00:35:52,154 --> 00:35:52,514
you know

1013
00:35:52,514 --> 00:35:53,334
a thousand dollars

1014
00:35:53,334 --> 00:35:54,594
of USDC with them

1015
00:35:54,594 --> 00:35:55,674
they can't pay me

1016
00:35:55,674 --> 00:35:56,954
three percent interest

1017
00:35:56,954 --> 00:35:57,534
or some

1018
00:35:57,534 --> 00:35:59,974
interest on that. That's not allowed

1019
00:35:59,974 --> 00:36:00,734
by the GeneSac.

1020
00:36:02,334 --> 00:36:03,174
But what

1021
00:36:03,174 --> 00:36:05,934
I think is happening is

1022
00:36:05,934 --> 00:36:07,514
other ways are found

1023
00:36:07,514 --> 00:36:09,814
to give me rewards.

1024
00:36:10,714 --> 00:36:11,894
I get rewards some

1025
00:36:11,894 --> 00:36:13,714
other way. Or they could have another

1026
00:36:13,714 --> 00:36:14,294
partner

1027
00:36:14,294 --> 00:36:17,494
actually give me interest.

1028
00:36:17,974 --> 00:36:19,494
And I think that's happening,

1029
00:36:19,894 --> 00:36:21,594
but there's not clarity.

1030
00:36:21,794 --> 00:36:23,454
There's not clarity on it.

1031
00:36:23,854 --> 00:36:25,414
It's gray, unclear

1032
00:36:25,414 --> 00:36:27,394
how the government would view that.

1033
00:36:27,534 --> 00:36:35,434
So I think that is like the battle with the Clarity Act to get clarity on that, that that is acceptable.

1034
00:36:35,634 --> 00:36:43,594
That meaning these other forms of giving rewards to customers to share some of those profits is my understanding.

1035
00:36:46,094 --> 00:36:53,874
And then with, and there's also not clarity on stretch backed stable coins in the US either.

1036
00:36:53,874 --> 00:36:58,054
I don't believe there's an existing stable coin in the U.S.

1037
00:36:59,254 --> 00:37:02,774
The more I think about it, the more it's an insanely good opportunity.

1038
00:37:03,174 --> 00:37:03,954
More to come.

1039
00:37:09,134 --> 00:37:09,734
Lexi.

1040
00:37:10,214 --> 00:37:11,134
Should we talk about Lexi?

1041
00:37:11,814 --> 00:37:13,554
We're actually talking about Bitcoin stuff.

1042
00:37:14,114 --> 00:37:16,614
We've been AI-pilled recently.

1043
00:37:16,854 --> 00:37:17,174
Anthropic?

1044
00:37:17,174 --> 00:37:26,974
Yeah, Lexi is a startup that operates out of preceded Bitcoin, literally sits right next to me.

1045
00:37:27,294 --> 00:37:30,994
I've known those guys for three to four years now as they've been building out their solution

1046
00:37:30,994 --> 00:37:35,174
because it's based on Lightning Development Kit, which my team works on.

1047
00:37:36,974 --> 00:37:42,114
And so I've known for a long time how awesome their technical approach to this is.

1048
00:37:42,114 --> 00:37:46,854
what sets them apart is that they're running lightning nodes in the cloud,

1049
00:37:47,194 --> 00:37:51,214
but they're doing it in trusted execution environments using Intel SGX.

1050
00:37:51,854 --> 00:37:56,254
So for every user's wallet, whether it's an agentic wallet

1051
00:37:56,254 --> 00:37:59,834
or a mobile app on your phone,

1052
00:38:00,694 --> 00:38:05,054
each wallet has its own LDK instance in the cloud,

1053
00:38:05,914 --> 00:38:08,214
but it's run in a TE.

1054
00:38:08,754 --> 00:38:11,674
So Lexi does not have access to the private keys to your wallet.

1055
00:38:11,674 --> 00:38:16,794
So it's a pretty good trade-off on security and usability.

1056
00:38:18,514 --> 00:38:23,254
Good in the sense that it's pretty close to not your keys,

1057
00:38:24,034 --> 00:38:25,974
or your keys, your coins.

1058
00:38:26,934 --> 00:38:30,934
You're trusting the trust model of Intel SGX,

1059
00:38:31,074 --> 00:38:33,174
which does have some vulnerabilities,

1060
00:38:33,554 --> 00:38:36,294
but it's much, much stronger assurances

1061
00:38:36,294 --> 00:38:40,134
than if it just ran on Lexi's servers themselves.

1062
00:38:40,134 --> 00:38:42,934
without a secure enclave.

1063
00:38:43,474 --> 00:38:44,614
So it's good security assurances,

1064
00:38:44,814 --> 00:38:46,174
and it definitely addresses

1065
00:38:46,174 --> 00:38:48,294
some of the UX challenges of Lightning.

1066
00:38:48,814 --> 00:38:50,834
One is receiving payments offline.

1067
00:38:51,434 --> 00:38:53,034
Your node would be running,

1068
00:38:53,454 --> 00:38:55,854
have a persistent internet connection in the cloud

1069
00:38:55,854 --> 00:38:57,154
so you can receive payments.

1070
00:38:57,794 --> 00:38:59,454
A normal thing people would expect.

1071
00:39:01,354 --> 00:39:04,014
And just a bunch of other UX challenges.

1072
00:39:04,014 --> 00:39:07,114
Being able to have multiple applications

1073
00:39:07,114 --> 00:39:09,294
or multiple devices access your wallet.

1074
00:39:09,294 --> 00:39:12,654
it's like very easy to do if your node's running in the cloud.

1075
00:39:12,654 --> 00:39:12,974
Right.

1076
00:39:13,554 --> 00:39:17,174
So it's a really sound technical solution.

1077
00:39:17,914 --> 00:39:20,134
I've been using their mobile wallet,

1078
00:39:20,214 --> 00:39:21,134
and I don't know if you guys have either,

1079
00:39:21,294 --> 00:39:22,754
but I mean, for a long time.

1080
00:39:22,934 --> 00:39:23,314
And their SDK.

1081
00:39:23,754 --> 00:39:23,894
Yeah.

1082
00:39:24,194 --> 00:39:24,934
And their SDK, right.

1083
00:39:24,994 --> 00:39:25,554
That's right, yeah.

1084
00:39:25,554 --> 00:39:26,514
So they've had a mobile wallet,

1085
00:39:26,634 --> 00:39:29,834
like beta for, you know, at least six months.

1086
00:39:30,754 --> 00:39:31,934
It's one of my, right.

1087
00:39:32,114 --> 00:39:34,134
I mean, now with Agentec payments,

1088
00:39:34,194 --> 00:39:37,574
I'm doing payments like on a definitely weekly,

1089
00:39:37,674 --> 00:39:39,074
if not daily basis of Bitcoin.

1090
00:39:39,294 --> 00:39:39,854
which is great.

1091
00:39:40,054 --> 00:39:40,934
I mean, just toying around.

1092
00:39:42,014 --> 00:39:42,614
How can I meet you?

1093
00:39:43,494 --> 00:39:44,554
Like I bought a,

1094
00:39:44,594 --> 00:39:45,394
I used Ori to,

1095
00:39:45,734 --> 00:39:47,214
we got to get our MDK

1096
00:39:47,214 --> 00:39:48,994
comment in for the episode.

1097
00:39:49,454 --> 00:39:51,874
I bought a pencil with Ori

1098
00:39:51,874 --> 00:39:52,434
because Ori,

1099
00:39:52,654 --> 00:39:53,374
they launched

1100
00:39:53,374 --> 00:39:56,394
unhuman.shopping, is it?

1101
00:39:56,454 --> 00:39:57,574
It's like an Amazon wrapper.

1102
00:39:57,834 --> 00:40:00,654
So I bought a pencil with Ori.

1103
00:40:00,854 --> 00:40:01,094
All right.

1104
00:40:01,134 --> 00:40:01,634
Did you get it?

1105
00:40:02,354 --> 00:40:03,614
It's going to be delivered here.

1106
00:40:03,794 --> 00:40:04,074
Okay.

1107
00:40:04,214 --> 00:40:04,494
I'm excited.

1108
00:40:04,834 --> 00:40:05,634
So we'll see.

1109
00:40:05,734 --> 00:40:06,274
And I told you.

1110
00:40:06,274 --> 00:40:06,714
It's supposed to be delivered

1111
00:40:06,714 --> 00:40:07,394
to Presidio Bitcoin.

1112
00:40:07,494 --> 00:40:08,234
I told you guys,

1113
00:40:08,234 --> 00:40:15,214
I did unhuman.coffee where I used Ori to purchase coffee for a friend and arrived at his office.

1114
00:40:15,374 --> 00:40:15,874
He was thrilled.

1115
00:40:16,174 --> 00:40:16,994
It actually worked.

1116
00:40:17,134 --> 00:40:23,714
We did Bitcoin payments from an agent in WhatsApp or Telegram to receive real world coffee.

1117
00:40:23,954 --> 00:40:26,034
So people have been asking, when can we buy coffee with Bitcoin right now?

1118
00:40:26,474 --> 00:40:26,854
That's great.

1119
00:40:27,214 --> 00:40:29,674
But anyway, so I am doing more Bitcoin payments now.

1120
00:40:29,774 --> 00:40:34,794
It's still mostly tinkering, but there's definitely way more fun stuff to tinker with,

1121
00:40:34,794 --> 00:40:38,214
which is better than not having anything fun to tinker with.

1122
00:40:38,374 --> 00:40:40,234
We've gone from like, can't do it at all,

1123
00:40:40,454 --> 00:40:42,674
to like, not fun stuff to tinker with.

1124
00:40:42,774 --> 00:40:44,454
So now we have fun stuff to tinker with,

1125
00:40:44,454 --> 00:40:46,894
and then eventually they'll actually be useful stuff.

1126
00:40:48,574 --> 00:40:49,434
We're getting there.

1127
00:40:50,214 --> 00:40:52,894
But yeah, Lexi, Phoenix, and Cash App

1128
00:40:52,894 --> 00:40:55,334
are my three primary Bitcoin wallets.

1129
00:40:56,074 --> 00:40:57,154
I like all three.

1130
00:40:57,494 --> 00:41:00,674
They're all very good experiences.

1131
00:41:00,994 --> 00:41:03,674
Can I share sort of my experience with Lexi?

1132
00:41:03,674 --> 00:41:03,994
Please.

1133
00:41:03,994 --> 00:41:08,134
I want to give a little bit of the layman's intro to it

1134
00:41:08,134 --> 00:41:11,314
because I think what you just described is true technically,

1135
00:41:11,534 --> 00:41:14,434
but I think if you haven't messed with a lot of these wallets,

1136
00:41:14,454 --> 00:41:17,514
you may not be as familiar with all the problems.

1137
00:41:17,894 --> 00:41:21,014
So if you just, you know, previous to Lexi,

1138
00:41:21,054 --> 00:41:23,894
if you were to just go to the app store and download a Lightning wallet,

1139
00:41:24,394 --> 00:41:25,834
we know Lightning is fast,

1140
00:41:26,054 --> 00:41:29,794
but it depends on somebody running a Lightning node on your behalf.

1141
00:41:30,174 --> 00:41:31,474
And so if you download that on your phone,

1142
00:41:31,554 --> 00:41:33,654
you can't run the Lightning node on your phone, right?

1143
00:41:33,654 --> 00:41:36,574
because your phone sometimes is asleep and not on and stuff.

1144
00:41:36,914 --> 00:41:38,654
You need that running somewhere at all times,

1145
00:41:39,174 --> 00:41:41,874
but you need something that you control, right?

1146
00:41:42,374 --> 00:41:44,454
And so if you download something from the App Store,

1147
00:41:45,034 --> 00:41:46,874
you don't really control it or depend on somebody else

1148
00:41:46,874 --> 00:41:48,714
to run that lightning node for you.

1149
00:41:48,994 --> 00:41:51,054
And the magic of Lexi, when he first showed it to me,

1150
00:41:51,094 --> 00:41:52,134
I couldn't believe how easy it was,

1151
00:41:52,634 --> 00:41:54,574
is you download this thing from the App Store.

1152
00:41:54,634 --> 00:41:55,674
It was the test flight at the time.

1153
00:41:56,334 --> 00:41:59,294
And when you kind of set up your wallet,

1154
00:41:59,294 --> 00:42:03,314
it just has you connect your Google Drive

1155
00:42:03,314 --> 00:42:05,294
I think is one of the options, maybe a Dropbox.

1156
00:42:05,634 --> 00:42:07,234
And then it puts those credentials

1157
00:42:07,234 --> 00:42:09,054
onto your Google Drive automatically,

1158
00:42:09,554 --> 00:42:11,434
those credentials that allow you to control

1159
00:42:11,434 --> 00:42:13,394
the Lightning node. So they're running

1160
00:42:13,394 --> 00:42:14,494
the Lightning node, like Steve said,

1161
00:42:14,834 --> 00:42:17,214
execution environment in the cloud, Intel SGX.

1162
00:42:17,714 --> 00:42:19,514
But as a user, you don't really notice that.

1163
00:42:19,594 --> 00:42:20,734
You just say, I download the thing,

1164
00:42:21,094 --> 00:42:22,354
I connect my Google Drive.

1165
00:42:22,694 --> 00:42:25,054
Now, it stores away the credentials, I control them,

1166
00:42:25,134 --> 00:42:27,314
they don't. But now I have my wallet

1167
00:42:27,314 --> 00:42:29,174
and it's fully self-custodial and

1168
00:42:29,174 --> 00:42:31,294
it's running the Lightning node in the cloud

1169
00:42:31,294 --> 00:42:33,294
for me without me having to really like

1170
00:42:33,294 --> 00:42:35,794
set it up or think about it or understand

1171
00:42:35,794 --> 00:42:37,614
all the details of running a lightning node

1172
00:42:37,614 --> 00:42:39,254
but I now have my own lightning node running

1173
00:42:39,254 --> 00:42:41,254
without having to worry about it. That's I think

1174
00:42:41,254 --> 00:42:43,634
in a sense from a user

1175
00:42:43,634 --> 00:42:45,334
experience what feels like a big breakthrough to me.

1176
00:42:45,674 --> 00:42:46,414
Yeah, I agree.

1177
00:42:47,594 --> 00:42:49,674
Just to be clear, you can run a

1178
00:42:49,674 --> 00:42:51,734
lightning node on your phone and have good user experience.

1179
00:42:51,894 --> 00:42:53,534
Phoenix has a lightning node running

1180
00:42:53,534 --> 00:42:54,074
on the phone.

1181
00:42:56,534 --> 00:42:57,994
Just saying that's possible.

1182
00:42:58,634 --> 00:42:59,634
To be clear on that,

1183
00:42:59,814 --> 00:43:01,554
they have the keys for signing

1184
00:43:01,554 --> 00:43:02,134
on the phone, right?

1185
00:43:02,134 --> 00:43:04,034
Yeah, the rest of the day is split off.

1186
00:43:04,214 --> 00:43:05,054
No, it's on the phone.

1187
00:43:05,134 --> 00:43:06,034
So if I have it on my phone.

1188
00:43:06,054 --> 00:43:08,254
And LDK has also been structured to do that as well.

1189
00:43:08,294 --> 00:43:11,674
If I have it on my phone and my phone is run out of batteries, let's say, worst case, right?

1190
00:43:12,034 --> 00:43:13,914
It's definitely not internet connected.

1191
00:43:13,994 --> 00:43:15,174
Then you try to send me a payment.

1192
00:43:15,294 --> 00:43:16,394
How does that work?

1193
00:43:17,174 --> 00:43:19,214
Yeah, well, in that case, you wouldn't receive the payment.

1194
00:43:19,614 --> 00:43:23,874
Now, there's a async payments protocol that's been developed by the Spiral team

1195
00:43:23,874 --> 00:43:28,974
that would hold the payment until you come back alive.

1196
00:43:28,974 --> 00:43:29,554
Where does it hold it?

1197
00:43:29,554 --> 00:43:31,994
it actually

1198
00:43:31,994 --> 00:43:33,654
like if I'm sending you a payment

1199
00:43:33,654 --> 00:43:35,934
it would be held by the node

1200
00:43:35,934 --> 00:43:37,354
my wallet is connected to

1201
00:43:37,354 --> 00:43:39,654
it would wait until it hears from the node

1202
00:43:39,654 --> 00:43:41,694
that your wallet is connected to

1203
00:43:41,694 --> 00:43:43,594
and then once it

1204
00:43:43,594 --> 00:43:45,494
wakes once you wake up and

1205
00:43:45,494 --> 00:43:47,914
you're active you meaning

1206
00:43:47,914 --> 00:43:49,794
your node and your wallet

1207
00:43:49,794 --> 00:43:51,654
then the payment

1208
00:43:51,654 --> 00:43:52,894
would be initiated

1209
00:43:52,894 --> 00:43:55,854
it's the you've heard of

1210
00:43:55,854 --> 00:43:57,854
hodl invoices and I think we probably even

1211
00:43:57,854 --> 00:43:59,774
talked about on the show because I'm like, oh, it's hostile

1212
00:43:59,774 --> 00:44:00,494
to the network.

1213
00:44:01,694 --> 00:44:03,114
This kind of sounds like that, no?

1214
00:44:03,414 --> 00:44:04,774
But without the hostility.

1215
00:44:05,174 --> 00:44:07,494
Because the HODL invoices

1216
00:44:07,494 --> 00:44:09,714
don't require any protocol changes.

1217
00:44:10,294 --> 00:44:11,494
But if I'm sending you a payment,

1218
00:44:12,054 --> 00:44:13,834
instead of the first hop

1219
00:44:13,834 --> 00:44:15,914
holding it, it's the last hop holding it.

1220
00:44:16,454 --> 00:44:17,814
So like the node that your wallet

1221
00:44:17,814 --> 00:44:19,614
is connected to. And then when

1222
00:44:19,614 --> 00:44:21,574
it waits for you to wake up and then

1223
00:44:21,574 --> 00:44:23,174
it completes the payment.

1224
00:44:23,594 --> 00:44:25,214
And it does it in a trustless fashion.

1225
00:44:25,694 --> 00:44:27,754
The hostility comes in because the whole

1226
00:44:27,754 --> 00:44:34,034
route from me to that last hop gets that liquidity gets tied up so none of the nodes in in the route

1227
00:44:34,034 --> 00:44:38,234
like that because their money is just tied up and can't be used for future or any future payments

1228
00:44:38,234 --> 00:44:46,274
until the payment's completed and you might not receive that payment for hours or days um you might

1229
00:44:46,274 --> 00:44:50,274
not ever wake back up and then it like times out after what a week or two weeks or whatever so

1230
00:44:50,274 --> 00:44:56,654
that's why it's hostile the async payments protocol does sort of the opposite where it's held

1231
00:44:56,654 --> 00:44:58,734
from the sender side, not the receiver,

1232
00:44:58,854 --> 00:44:59,774
doesn't tie up liquidity,

1233
00:45:00,014 --> 00:45:01,794
but still completes the payment.

1234
00:45:02,234 --> 00:45:04,234
So it's definitely better, a better protocol.

1235
00:45:04,394 --> 00:45:05,774
It just, like all these protocols,

1236
00:45:06,014 --> 00:45:06,734
has to be adopted.

1237
00:45:07,134 --> 00:45:07,254
Yeah.

1238
00:45:07,654 --> 00:45:09,434
Could we zoom out on the Lexi announcement?

1239
00:45:09,614 --> 00:45:10,494
I'm really excited.

1240
00:45:10,634 --> 00:45:11,974
I mean, obviously, I'm a big fan of this team,

1241
00:45:12,414 --> 00:45:13,654
also invested in this team as well.

1242
00:45:14,494 --> 00:45:16,214
One question I'm curious y'all's thoughts,

1243
00:45:16,214 --> 00:45:18,114
I mean, I've kind of been pushing Max and Phillip,

1244
00:45:18,274 --> 00:45:20,834
that the user experience for the phone wallet is amazing.

1245
00:45:22,154 --> 00:45:23,774
You've played a little bit more with the SDK.

1246
00:45:23,774 --> 00:45:27,894
I think one thing that I've been trying to better think through is where,

1247
00:45:28,054 --> 00:45:39,948
where does this experience you know enable I don know orders of magnitude new usage like what new opportunities does this open up Are there specific things I don know from your experience with an SDK that you think it particularly well for

1248
00:45:40,348 --> 00:45:42,488
I don't know, like a vision you would love to see them explore,

1249
00:45:42,628 --> 00:45:45,368
experiments or, you know, beyond like,

1250
00:45:45,628 --> 00:45:47,408
obviously people that want to make Bitcoin payments, amazing,

1251
00:45:47,528 --> 00:45:48,728
but that's still a small market, so.

1252
00:45:49,688 --> 00:45:53,388
I've used it, I mean, last, when I was using it

1253
00:45:53,388 --> 00:45:55,008
was probably six months ago or so,

1254
00:45:55,108 --> 00:45:56,468
so it's probably a bit dated.

1255
00:45:56,708 --> 00:45:57,468
But what I was saying is like,

1256
00:45:57,508 --> 00:45:59,528
I was, I want to make a new website

1257
00:45:59,528 --> 00:46:00,708
that accepts Bitcoin payments.

1258
00:46:00,828 --> 00:46:02,388
I think I first made like a snake game

1259
00:46:02,388 --> 00:46:03,808
and I made Mika and stuff.

1260
00:46:03,908 --> 00:46:06,528
I made a bunch of little fun web apps

1261
00:46:06,528 --> 00:46:08,848
just to get, exercise the muscle

1262
00:46:08,848 --> 00:46:11,108
of making something that can receive Bitcoin.

1263
00:46:11,888 --> 00:46:13,668
And so for that, there's just,

1264
00:46:13,948 --> 00:46:14,888
in the sidebar of Lexi,

1265
00:46:14,988 --> 00:46:15,848
there's a little, you know,

1266
00:46:16,028 --> 00:46:18,868
SDK, create a SDK key or whatever.

1267
00:46:18,928 --> 00:46:20,188
And I can like easily use that

1268
00:46:20,188 --> 00:46:22,988
and drop it into my sort of vibe coded game.

1269
00:46:23,208 --> 00:46:24,948
And then I can start accepting payments right away.

1270
00:46:25,188 --> 00:46:27,008
And that worked amazingly well.

1271
00:46:27,228 --> 00:46:27,968
Very simple.

1272
00:46:28,188 --> 00:46:28,808
It was easy.

1273
00:46:28,808 --> 00:46:29,908
I've got my wallet right there.

1274
00:46:30,008 --> 00:46:33,548
I can watch the value go up as I get payments.

1275
00:46:33,748 --> 00:46:36,668
So to me, that was very clear and easy.

1276
00:46:37,168 --> 00:46:39,588
I don't know if that experience has advanced a lot

1277
00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:42,008
in the recent six months or so

1278
00:46:42,008 --> 00:46:43,488
since I was messing with it more.

1279
00:46:44,648 --> 00:46:46,948
And then as much as I'm excited about MDK

1280
00:46:46,948 --> 00:46:48,488
and big Ori user,

1281
00:46:48,608 --> 00:46:50,988
I haven't actually built anything using MDK yet.

1282
00:46:51,388 --> 00:46:51,928
So I'm wondering,

1283
00:46:53,268 --> 00:46:56,248
have either of you guys explored the edges

1284
00:46:56,248 --> 00:46:58,488
of what maybe MDK is better at?

1285
00:46:58,808 --> 00:46:59,428
Just a little bit.

1286
00:46:59,428 --> 00:47:01,088
So I'll speak to it a little bit.

1287
00:47:01,088 --> 00:47:03,888
But I want to play, I mean, we should all play with it more

1288
00:47:03,888 --> 00:47:05,788
and elaborate more on future shows.

1289
00:47:05,968 --> 00:47:11,208
But I think MDK has been designed to be like the stripe for payment.

1290
00:47:11,388 --> 00:47:15,168
So it's designed around accounts and customers and checkouts.

1291
00:47:15,368 --> 00:47:15,788
And receiving.

1292
00:47:16,088 --> 00:47:19,828
And those APIs, it's sort of at that conceptual level

1293
00:47:19,828 --> 00:47:22,068
and not at a lower level.

1294
00:47:22,228 --> 00:47:26,088
Whereas Lexi's, their API doesn't have that

1295
00:47:26,088 --> 00:47:28,288
and it's a more lower level.

1296
00:47:28,288 --> 00:47:34,828
So if you want to customize the payment flows more, Lexi allows you to do that.

1297
00:47:35,368 --> 00:47:36,988
And I don't think MDK does.

1298
00:47:37,488 --> 00:47:44,988
So it's for someone who wouldn't find the MDK checkout flow works for them.

1299
00:47:45,048 --> 00:47:46,248
They wanted to do something else.

1300
00:47:46,368 --> 00:47:47,108
They need more flexibility.

1301
00:47:47,228 --> 00:47:47,988
They need more flexibility.

1302
00:47:48,448 --> 00:47:51,848
Then Lexi, I think, fits those needs.

1303
00:47:52,108 --> 00:47:55,888
As far as what they should go after, I don't really know offhand.

1304
00:47:55,888 --> 00:48:00,148
but certainly one thing we should encourage them to do

1305
00:48:00,148 --> 00:48:05,328
is find another gear in terms of velocity.

1306
00:48:05,828 --> 00:48:07,788
One thing we've loved about the MDK team

1307
00:48:07,788 --> 00:48:09,648
is just how quickly they're experimenting.

1308
00:48:11,108 --> 00:48:14,208
None of us know yet what's going to grow

1309
00:48:14,208 --> 00:48:17,168
and be a winning formula,

1310
00:48:17,428 --> 00:48:19,948
but certainly the more at-bats you get,

1311
00:48:20,148 --> 00:48:23,668
the higher chances you're going to find that thing.

1312
00:48:23,668 --> 00:48:28,928
So I'm really bullish on MDK having a higher probability of finding stuff.

1313
00:48:29,028 --> 00:48:30,928
Now, if they do find it, others can copy, of course.

1314
00:48:31,088 --> 00:48:34,148
But if you've been in the grind every day finding it,

1315
00:48:34,188 --> 00:48:37,568
you're going to be in a nice position to have good instincts.

1316
00:48:38,388 --> 00:48:41,508
And you have internal data that you probably see it before everybody else.

1317
00:48:41,948 --> 00:48:42,548
It doesn't need to be.

1318
00:48:42,668 --> 00:48:46,768
I literally, on the way over, I was just on a call with Nick the whole time over.

1319
00:48:47,148 --> 00:48:49,528
And I was telling him, hey, great, lots of experiments.

1320
00:48:49,708 --> 00:48:52,428
But I think you get like 10x the number of experiments you're doing.

1321
00:48:52,428 --> 00:48:59,068
like brainstorm with ai you've got like the coffee thing you know there's like the the amazon buy

1322
00:48:59,068 --> 00:49:04,848
you know like buy a pencil on amazon thing those are great but i think if you i think if you want

1323
00:49:04,848 --> 00:49:10,428
to win you can't be general you have to be specific so i think coffee specific you know pencils pencils

1324
00:49:10,428 --> 00:49:14,268
are specific amazon's a little more general potatoes specific yeah potatoes are very specific

1325
00:49:14,268 --> 00:49:20,348
it's great but then create like 50 of your top ideas yeah and just do them all yeah because you

1326
00:49:20,348 --> 00:49:23,848
don't know you're not gonna be able to pick in a sense as a type of content versus a technology

1327
00:49:23,848 --> 00:49:28,908
bet yeah but do all 50 of them you know and have a ai can actually help you generate all 50

1328
00:49:28,908 --> 00:49:34,288
prioritize them implement them yeah like it doesn't just do everything you have to work with it and

1329
00:49:34,288 --> 00:49:39,948
orchestrate it right but um i think more shots on goal even though i think mdk is doing a great job

1330
00:49:39,948 --> 00:49:44,008
with shots on goal i think they could still 10 exit yeah i think lexi could definitely you know

1331
00:49:44,008 --> 00:49:49,528
10x or 100x kind of their their effort at shots on goal but the the one thing i said to them on

1332
00:49:49,528 --> 00:49:49,868
to launch.

1333
00:49:50,008 --> 00:49:50,108
I said,

1334
00:49:50,108 --> 00:49:51,368
he's giving sports.

1335
00:49:52,028 --> 00:49:52,388
Yeah.

1336
00:49:53,468 --> 00:49:53,888
I said,

1337
00:49:54,008 --> 00:49:56,348
congrats on the launch.

1338
00:49:56,468 --> 00:49:57,048
Keep launching.

1339
00:49:58,368 --> 00:49:58,508
Yeah.

1340
00:49:58,788 --> 00:49:59,048
Meaning,

1341
00:49:59,388 --> 00:49:59,528
yeah,

1342
00:49:59,688 --> 00:50:01,088
this isn't just a one and done.

1343
00:50:01,188 --> 00:50:02,808
This is like every day launch something new.

1344
00:50:03,068 --> 00:50:04,228
So we should definitely encourage,

1345
00:50:04,848 --> 00:50:06,068
I mean,

1346
00:50:06,308 --> 00:50:07,348
every team to be doing that,

1347
00:50:07,528 --> 00:50:08,968
including Lexi.

1348
00:50:09,488 --> 00:50:09,728
And then,

1349
00:50:09,888 --> 00:50:11,028
but they don't have to do

1350
00:50:11,028 --> 00:50:12,728
the same experiments as MDK.

1351
00:50:12,828 --> 00:50:13,988
They do different experiments, right?

1352
00:50:14,168 --> 00:50:15,268
Especially because they do have

1353
00:50:15,268 --> 00:50:16,488
a different API,

1354
00:50:16,648 --> 00:50:17,368
a different architecture.

1355
00:50:17,728 --> 00:50:17,888
Exactly.

1356
00:50:17,888 --> 00:50:18,088
I mean,

1357
00:50:18,148 --> 00:50:19,128
there's some overlap

1358
00:50:19,128 --> 00:50:21,948
with the solutions, but they are different.

1359
00:50:22,528 --> 00:50:24,408
And with their security model too,

1360
00:50:24,868 --> 00:50:27,068
what are the different experiences

1361
00:50:27,068 --> 00:50:28,728
where people want to take advantage of that?

1362
00:50:28,848 --> 00:50:30,288
And this is what I was trying to get at,

1363
00:50:30,368 --> 00:50:33,728
is they're going to find a different niche.

1364
00:50:34,268 --> 00:50:36,128
Think about how big commerce online is.

1365
00:50:36,208 --> 00:50:37,808
There's Stripe, there's Audient, there's PayPal,

1366
00:50:37,808 --> 00:50:40,368
and that's going to probably 100x or 1,000x from here.

1367
00:50:41,128 --> 00:50:43,888
When I think about, what I'm trying to better understand is,

1368
00:50:43,988 --> 00:50:46,808
my understanding is that MDK, at least the SDK,

1369
00:50:47,068 --> 00:50:48,628
is set up for receipt payments like Stripe.

1370
00:50:48,628 --> 00:50:52,608
Now, clearly Nick has payments working sending as well in OriBot.

1371
00:50:53,048 --> 00:50:56,748
But MDK, do you guys know, is it architected for sending as well?

1372
00:50:56,808 --> 00:50:59,428
Because I assume Lexi is easy to do, receive and send.

1373
00:50:59,948 --> 00:51:02,428
I mean, yeah, you can send payments.

1374
00:51:02,868 --> 00:51:06,068
Well, I mean, Ori is using MDK.

1375
00:51:06,888 --> 00:51:08,788
But is that like a first-class citizen in there?

1376
00:51:08,848 --> 00:51:13,408
Because I'm thinking with Lexi, there might be more cases where people are doing more.

1377
00:51:13,528 --> 00:51:17,048
It's not just like I'm receiving payments, but like, I don't know, I've got a bot playing a game.

1378
00:51:17,048 --> 00:51:18,588
but I guess Nick has that working too

1379
00:51:18,588 --> 00:51:20,668
but I almost feel like if you're

1380
00:51:20,668 --> 00:51:23,248
Lexi and you've got this more

1381
00:51:23,248 --> 00:51:24,928
flexible atomic

1382
00:51:24,928 --> 00:51:27,148
payment material you should

1383
00:51:27,148 --> 00:51:28,988
almost like demonstrate

1384
00:51:28,988 --> 00:51:31,188
like I can understand what that means but I don't

1385
00:51:31,188 --> 00:51:33,048
I don't have an example that comes to mind of what

1386
00:51:33,048 --> 00:51:34,828
Lexi can do that MDK can't

1387
00:51:34,828 --> 00:51:37,008
not that they should focus all of their experimentation there

1388
00:51:37,008 --> 00:51:39,088
but I as you know somewhat

1389
00:51:39,088 --> 00:51:41,008
friendly with each team I can't

1390
00:51:41,008 --> 00:51:43,108
articulate what that is I can hear from you that that's

1391
00:51:43,108 --> 00:51:45,168
the case but I'd like to see an example of

1392
00:51:45,168 --> 00:51:47,848
what are the cool things that you can only do with Lexi?

1393
00:51:48,268 --> 00:51:49,768
Yeah. Agreed.

1394
00:51:50,068 --> 00:51:51,388
That's exactly the question I'm trying to ask.

1395
00:51:51,948 --> 00:51:54,828
And maybe it has to do with the privacy as well, the SGX piece.

1396
00:51:55,208 --> 00:51:58,348
Yeah. Well, I mean, at least myself and probably several of us

1397
00:51:58,348 --> 00:52:01,668
will chat with them next week or in the coming weeks.

1398
00:52:02,048 --> 00:52:07,168
Hopefully we'll learn or encourage them to explore that and learn,

1399
00:52:07,268 --> 00:52:08,988
and then we can come back and chat about it here.

1400
00:52:08,988 --> 00:52:10,588
For now, it's awesome to launch that.

1401
00:52:10,688 --> 00:52:13,148
I was also very pleased to see this was at the top of Stacker News.

1402
00:52:14,068 --> 00:52:16,668
A lot of stackers I really respect

1403
00:52:16,668 --> 00:52:18,048
seem extremely excited about it.

1404
00:52:18,868 --> 00:52:21,068
So the big brains on stacker news

1405
00:52:21,068 --> 00:52:22,508
seem to think this is an excellent solution.

1406
00:52:22,668 --> 00:52:23,168
So that was nice.

1407
00:52:23,508 --> 00:52:23,608
Great.

1408
00:52:25,768 --> 00:52:26,608
What do we got next?

1409
00:52:26,848 --> 00:52:27,388
What do we got about clients?

1410
00:52:27,568 --> 00:52:28,428
It's tough.

1411
00:52:29,208 --> 00:52:29,888
That was like a seed for AI.

1412
00:52:30,388 --> 00:52:31,628
You want to talk about that a little bit?

1413
00:52:31,748 --> 00:52:31,908
Yeah.

1414
00:52:32,508 --> 00:52:34,588
Well, just, you know,

1415
00:52:34,588 --> 00:52:35,988
I was in New York a couple weeks ago

1416
00:52:35,988 --> 00:52:40,128
and gave a presentation about agentic payments.

1417
00:52:40,268 --> 00:52:41,468
But during the course of that,

1418
00:52:41,468 --> 00:52:46,408
I don't know how I was not thinking this,

1419
00:52:46,508 --> 00:52:52,768
but I was informed that Coinbase base doesn't have privacy.

1420
00:52:53,608 --> 00:52:54,968
It's a public blockchain.

1421
00:52:55,228 --> 00:52:55,308
What?

1422
00:52:56,688 --> 00:52:59,588
And this goes back to last fall,

1423
00:52:59,788 --> 00:53:02,388
I discovered that LightSparkSpark,

1424
00:53:02,508 --> 00:53:06,948
it's not a public blockchain.

1425
00:53:07,708 --> 00:53:08,308
Spark is not.

1426
00:53:08,308 --> 00:53:11,768
But they had a policy,

1427
00:53:12,308 --> 00:53:15,188
LightSpark's entity or Spark entity

1428
00:53:15,188 --> 00:53:17,588
would publish all transactions publicly.

1429
00:53:19,648 --> 00:53:23,588
And I thought that was just absolutely ludicrous

1430
00:53:23,588 --> 00:53:28,328
because while most human beings don't care

1431
00:53:28,328 --> 00:53:30,328
about the levels of privacy

1432
00:53:30,328 --> 00:53:32,108
that a lot of Bitcoiners get worked up about.

1433
00:53:32,268 --> 00:53:33,708
Yeah, they don't want their whole financial thing

1434
00:53:33,708 --> 00:53:34,568
broadcast the internet.

1435
00:53:35,008 --> 00:53:37,908
Most humans are accustomed to your bank

1436
00:53:37,908 --> 00:53:40,688
or your cash app or PayPal or whatever,

1437
00:53:40,828 --> 00:53:41,888
knowing your transactions

1438
00:53:41,888 --> 00:53:44,048
and maybe that gets shared with the government or whatever.

1439
00:53:44,148 --> 00:53:48,528
That's sort of like what normal people's expectations are for today.

1440
00:53:49,428 --> 00:53:52,028
But they don't expect all your neighbors

1441
00:53:52,028 --> 00:53:54,208
to be able to see your wallet and your transactions

1442
00:53:54,208 --> 00:53:58,388
and your balance and anyone in the world.

1443
00:53:59,888 --> 00:54:01,728
But LightSpark has since fixed that, though.

1444
00:54:01,748 --> 00:54:06,168
So then LightSpark did, they heard feedback

1445
00:54:06,168 --> 00:54:08,348
and they responded to feedback

1446
00:54:08,348 --> 00:54:11,928
and they added an API option

1447
00:54:11,928 --> 00:54:13,748
so that if you're like a Breeze SDK

1448
00:54:13,748 --> 00:54:16,048
or a wallet using Spark,

1449
00:54:16,208 --> 00:54:19,048
you can disable that publication of transactions.

1450
00:54:19,308 --> 00:54:20,748
Now, just the other day though,

1451
00:54:21,248 --> 00:54:24,268
someone, a guy on Twitter,

1452
00:54:24,568 --> 00:54:27,048
posted an example though

1453
00:54:27,048 --> 00:54:31,568
where there is apparently still leakage of privacy.

1454
00:54:31,768 --> 00:54:34,068
Like even with that disabled,

1455
00:54:34,068 --> 00:54:36,288
he was able to send a payment to someone

1456
00:54:36,288 --> 00:54:38,208
and then discover their wallet.

1457
00:54:38,548 --> 00:54:40,248
Because the wallet he is using

1458
00:54:40,248 --> 00:54:42,068
exposed some ID

1459
00:54:42,068 --> 00:54:44,348
from their side and he's able to

1460
00:54:44,348 --> 00:54:45,988
then go look it up on Spark Explorer.

1461
00:54:46,988 --> 00:54:48,428
That needs to be

1462
00:54:48,428 --> 00:54:49,828
investigated a little more to see

1463
00:54:49,828 --> 00:54:51,268
is it true and

1464
00:54:51,268 --> 00:54:54,488
what's the blast radius of that.

1465
00:54:55,048 --> 00:54:56,508
But back to

1466
00:54:56,508 --> 00:54:58,568
stablecoin stuff. I don't know why

1467
00:54:58,568 --> 00:55:00,828
I never realized

1468
00:55:00,828 --> 00:55:02,788
or I guess

1469
00:55:02,788 --> 00:55:04,868
I knew base was a public blockchain,

1470
00:55:05,048 --> 00:55:06,968
but I just didn't realize all this

1471
00:55:06,968 --> 00:55:08,928
USDC on, this

1472
00:55:08,928 --> 00:55:10,608
whole push of all your payments

1473
00:55:10,608 --> 00:55:13,148
being done on base, all your payments

1474
00:55:13,148 --> 00:55:14,748
in your wallets would be public.

1475
00:55:15,448 --> 00:55:16,448
I think that's crazy.

1476
00:55:16,868 --> 00:55:18,628
Public tied to like a

1477
00:55:18,628 --> 00:55:20,848
cryptographic key or a hash

1478
00:55:20,848 --> 00:55:21,248
or something.

1479
00:55:21,248 --> 00:55:21,488
Yeah.

1480
00:55:22,648 --> 00:55:25,048
But you know, but again,

1481
00:55:25,168 --> 00:55:27,248
if you pay the person at the farmer's market

1482
00:55:27,248 --> 00:55:28,788
or your friend or even someone

1483
00:55:28,788 --> 00:55:31,188
or a stranger, then they can just

1484
00:55:31,188 --> 00:55:32,548
look up your balance.

1485
00:55:32,788 --> 00:55:38,288
Right, which is kind of how core level one Bitcoin works, right?

1486
00:55:38,788 --> 00:55:40,888
Yeah, but that's not used for payments.

1487
00:55:41,108 --> 00:55:41,208
Yeah.

1488
00:55:41,608 --> 00:55:43,488
I mean, it doesn't scale, right?

1489
00:55:43,648 --> 00:55:47,328
Like normal people are not using on-chain Bitcoin to do payments today.

1490
00:55:47,828 --> 00:55:48,968
Only like Bitcoiners.

1491
00:55:49,088 --> 00:55:53,988
And I think people that did in the early days are probably like kind of horrified later on, you know, 15 years later.

1492
00:55:53,988 --> 00:55:58,308
Yeah, so that's actually, that's a very common response though is like it works just like Bitcoin.

1493
00:55:58,308 --> 00:56:02,988
But normal people aren't using Bitcoin for payments, and they never will because it doesn't scale.

1494
00:56:03,608 --> 00:56:05,228
It does seven transactions per second.

1495
00:56:05,348 --> 00:56:05,828
It doesn't scale.

1496
00:56:05,908 --> 00:56:08,648
So it'll never be used for payments for normal people.

1497
00:56:09,068 --> 00:56:11,208
It has to be done at another layer like Lightning.

1498
00:56:11,488 --> 00:56:12,008
And guess what?

1499
00:56:12,128 --> 00:56:13,788
Lightning has much better privacy properties.

1500
00:56:14,868 --> 00:56:24,468
But it's just crazy to me that anyone you pay with USDC base, that they can see your balance and your entire transaction history.

1501
00:56:24,468 --> 00:56:31,748
Account-centric style, where you sort of have all of your USDC on base is in a single address?

1502
00:56:32,108 --> 00:56:32,268
Yeah.

1503
00:56:32,648 --> 00:56:32,848
Okay.

1504
00:56:33,908 --> 00:56:35,768
Tempo is the same way.

1505
00:56:36,508 --> 00:56:40,948
Now, Stripe's website says privacy coming soon.

1506
00:56:41,928 --> 00:56:49,068
They claim that they're working on a Zcash-like shielded privacy solution, which will be opt-in.

1507
00:56:49,068 --> 00:56:54,508
but with regulatory hooks, compliance hooks.

1508
00:56:54,848 --> 00:56:59,348
So now that would solve the problem.

1509
00:56:59,508 --> 00:57:00,988
I mean, I think the most egregious problem

1510
00:57:00,988 --> 00:57:04,428
is if the whole world can see your wallet

1511
00:57:04,428 --> 00:57:05,288
and your payments.

1512
00:57:05,588 --> 00:57:08,748
And you pay someone and they're snooping on you.

1513
00:57:08,888 --> 00:57:11,088
That just seems completely unacceptable.

1514
00:57:12,708 --> 00:57:17,228
So if Tempo or Base were to add

1515
00:57:17,228 --> 00:57:21,508
compliance-friendly privacy solutions,

1516
00:57:21,948 --> 00:57:24,468
then it at least addresses the egregious part.

1517
00:57:25,568 --> 00:57:28,568
It's back to being on par with the current banking system.

1518
00:57:30,428 --> 00:57:33,748
So now why they're saying it'll be opt-in, I don't know.

1519
00:57:33,748 --> 00:57:37,708
Why not just be on?

1520
00:57:38,188 --> 00:57:40,348
Probably because the defaults matter.

1521
00:57:41,368 --> 00:57:42,328
Yeah, because most people don't.

1522
00:57:42,328 --> 00:57:43,128
Most people don't care.

1523
00:57:44,628 --> 00:57:47,208
But why do they want that data out there to forever walk?

1524
00:57:47,228 --> 00:57:48,828
But who would want it to be public?

1525
00:57:49,748 --> 00:57:56,948
It seems like, I mean, the only argument I've seen is like the DGens who are doing meme coin trading, they love to like look this up or whatever.

1526
00:57:57,108 --> 00:57:58,388
So that's like part of the culture.

1527
00:57:58,848 --> 00:57:58,968
Okay.

1528
00:57:59,328 --> 00:58:03,168
For them, so maybe, so it seems to me like it should be, it should be opt out, right?

1529
00:58:03,168 --> 00:58:12,068
So like if I have a DGEN wallet and that's my, my customer's thing is to look up everyone's money and wallet or whatever they've done, then great.

1530
00:58:12,248 --> 00:58:14,368
I'll turn that on for my wallet.

1531
00:58:14,368 --> 00:58:23,308
But for normal people's wallets and balances and accounts, I don't know why you would not default to.

1532
00:58:23,448 --> 00:58:25,168
It just preserves privacy.

1533
00:58:25,468 --> 00:58:30,468
To be fair, I mean, so someone in that sort of crypto world that was looking at these sort of Bitcoin payments told me,

1534
00:58:30,548 --> 00:58:34,828
he's like, oh, yeah, it's like one of the greatest things of all the crypto is like the social features you get with seeing how people spend.

1535
00:58:34,928 --> 00:58:36,868
I was like, that's really weird, number one.

1536
00:58:37,668 --> 00:58:41,108
Number two, though, is, you know, I always thought it was strange.

1537
00:58:41,108 --> 00:58:43,288
I haven't used Venmo in over a decade,

1538
00:58:43,608 --> 00:58:44,468
loyal cash app user,

1539
00:58:44,568 --> 00:58:45,808
but also because I got locked out of Venmo

1540
00:58:45,808 --> 00:58:46,608
when I was living in Mexico.

1541
00:58:47,848 --> 00:58:50,128
And it always showed like your social graph

1542
00:58:50,128 --> 00:58:50,928
of who's paying who.

1543
00:58:51,008 --> 00:58:52,468
And I thought that was super bizarre as well.

1544
00:58:52,848 --> 00:58:53,708
So I don't know if it's like,

1545
00:58:53,768 --> 00:58:54,908
I mean, there's like clearly levels.

1546
00:58:55,008 --> 00:58:55,848
There's like the whole internet,

1547
00:58:56,308 --> 00:58:57,688
no one, government,

1548
00:58:58,108 --> 00:59:00,828
and then like people you opt in to see your own feed.

1549
00:59:01,108 --> 00:59:02,988
But personally, I don't know what you guys feel,

1550
00:59:03,028 --> 00:59:03,848
but I thought that was just,

1551
00:59:04,088 --> 00:59:04,948
and maybe it's a cultural thing.

1552
00:59:04,988 --> 00:59:05,548
I'm a boomer now,

1553
00:59:05,548 --> 00:59:06,468
but like the idea of,

1554
00:59:06,568 --> 00:59:08,048
I don't want to see what my friends are paying other people.

1555
00:59:08,408 --> 00:59:09,928
Yeah, here's my history on that.

1556
00:59:09,988 --> 00:59:10,788
When it first launched,

1557
00:59:10,788 --> 00:59:12,408
I thought it was interesting.

1558
00:59:12,588 --> 00:59:15,608
And I thought maybe there's an interesting social case,

1559
00:59:15,788 --> 00:59:18,668
but I've never learned what that is.

1560
00:59:19,008 --> 00:59:20,568
And then now I think it's ridiculous.

1561
00:59:21,048 --> 00:59:22,708
And the thing, because I'm like,

1562
00:59:23,588 --> 00:59:26,508
yeah, I make payments with Venmo all the time

1563
00:59:26,508 --> 00:59:28,988
to tennis instructor or whatever, stuff like that.

1564
00:59:29,048 --> 00:59:30,128
You got to get a cash app.

1565
00:59:30,828 --> 00:59:31,708
Well, yeah.

1566
00:59:32,288 --> 00:59:32,888
That's what I do.

1567
00:59:32,968 --> 00:59:34,528
I always say, hey, it's cash app or nothing.

1568
00:59:34,888 --> 00:59:36,848
But when I open it up, I see this feed

1569
00:59:36,848 --> 00:59:40,468
and I see these people that I literally have not spoken to

1570
00:59:40,468 --> 00:59:41,708
for 20 years

1571
00:59:41,708 --> 00:59:43,368
and I'm seeing them

1572
00:59:43,368 --> 00:59:44,408
make these payments

1573
00:59:44,408 --> 00:59:44,768
I'm like

1574
00:59:44,768 --> 00:59:45,988
I don't think they want me

1575
00:59:45,988 --> 00:59:46,748
seeing these payments

1576
00:59:46,748 --> 00:59:47,628
or they're certainly

1577
00:59:47,628 --> 00:59:48,288
not related to me

1578
00:59:48,288 --> 00:59:48,708
so then

1579
00:59:48,708 --> 00:59:49,468
sometimes

1580
00:59:49,468 --> 00:59:50,508
if I actually know

1581
00:59:50,508 --> 00:59:50,888
the person

1582
00:59:50,888 --> 00:59:51,688
I'll like

1583
00:59:51,688 --> 00:59:52,728
I'll

1584
00:59:52,728 --> 00:59:54,508
message them

1585
00:59:54,508 --> 00:59:55,908
making a joke

1586
00:59:55,908 --> 00:59:56,628
about this payment

1587
00:59:56,628 --> 00:59:57,108
they made

1588
00:59:57,108 --> 00:59:58,308
and they have no idea

1589
00:59:58,308 --> 00:59:59,088
how I know this

1590
00:59:59,088 --> 01:00:00,108
they have no idea

1591
01:00:00,108 --> 01:00:01,088
so then they

1592
01:00:01,088 --> 01:00:02,208
completely forgot

1593
01:00:02,208 --> 01:00:03,328
that this was

1594
01:00:03,328 --> 01:00:05,228
it is

1595
01:00:05,228 --> 01:00:05,788
it was

1596
01:00:05,788 --> 01:00:06,748
when I used to

1597
01:00:06,748 --> 01:00:07,448
and it really

1598
01:00:07,448 --> 01:00:09,088
it really freaks them out

1599
01:00:09,088 --> 01:00:10,048
that I

1600
01:00:10,048 --> 01:00:10,828
know that.

1601
01:00:11,388 --> 01:00:13,168
I think that's the base play too.

1602
01:00:13,188 --> 01:00:16,148
I turned it off, but I had to turn it off.

1603
01:00:16,228 --> 01:00:18,308
But why doesn't Venmo make it private by default

1604
01:00:18,308 --> 01:00:19,368
and then you can opt in?

1605
01:00:19,368 --> 01:00:20,588
They've also been sued and stuff.

1606
01:00:21,028 --> 01:00:22,948
They probably think there's some social hook in there.

1607
01:00:22,948 --> 01:00:23,828
I think there probably is.

1608
01:00:24,548 --> 01:00:26,868
I've heard especially younger demographics,

1609
01:00:27,188 --> 01:00:28,068
maybe non-boomers,

1610
01:00:28,568 --> 01:00:31,388
enjoy it and they joke with each other about it.

1611
01:00:31,648 --> 01:00:33,368
Well, anyway, I have no issue

1612
01:00:33,368 --> 01:00:34,588
with the product doing that.

1613
01:00:34,668 --> 01:00:35,888
And if people like to do it, great.

1614
01:00:36,068 --> 01:00:38,368
But for most use cases,

1615
01:00:38,468 --> 01:00:39,608
that's not the expectation.

1616
01:00:40,048 --> 01:00:43,528
And it would be just like very harmful to a lot of people.

1617
01:00:44,028 --> 01:00:52,128
So anyway, so as far as like why Bitcoin versus stable coins for payments, I mean, one is

1618
01:00:52,128 --> 01:00:56,928
like just, I mean, usually when you say, oh, because of privacy, people go in their head

1619
01:00:56,928 --> 01:01:01,888
to like, oh, it's just this like crazy Bitcoiner who's like worried about the government maybe

1620
01:01:01,888 --> 01:01:04,708
seeing a $10,000 transaction or something.

1621
01:01:04,708 --> 01:01:16,728
And it's like, no, this is your neighbor or the person, anyone you pay, you don't want them to see your balance and all of your other, you know, more seedy payments or whatever.

1622
01:01:17,408 --> 01:01:17,868
Steve.

1623
01:01:18,088 --> 01:01:18,308
Steve.

1624
01:01:18,468 --> 01:01:18,628
Yeah.

1625
01:01:19,068 --> 01:01:20,688
What kind of seedy payments are we talking about?

1626
01:01:20,688 --> 01:01:21,448
I don't want to out David.

1627
01:01:21,648 --> 01:01:22,028
Oh.

1628
01:01:23,788 --> 01:01:25,048
Tennis coach.

1629
01:01:26,008 --> 01:01:26,928
Mika Chad.

1630
01:01:27,308 --> 01:01:29,808
Heavy air clothes on the tennis coach.

1631
01:01:31,248 --> 01:01:33,228
So, balls in your court.

1632
01:01:33,228 --> 01:01:33,988
Yeah, exactly.

1633
01:01:34,708 --> 01:01:36,088
Anyway, but

1634
01:01:36,088 --> 01:01:38,948
so I think there's a strong argument

1635
01:01:38,948 --> 01:01:40,828
for Bitcoin and again,

1636
01:01:41,008 --> 01:01:42,888
not on-chain because no one's going to do

1637
01:01:42,888 --> 01:01:44,688
payments on-chain. On Lightning.

1638
01:01:44,948 --> 01:01:46,068
Lightning has good privacy.

1639
01:01:48,208 --> 01:01:49,008
Relatively good

1640
01:01:49,008 --> 01:01:50,808
privacy. You don't have to opt in either, right?

1641
01:01:51,108 --> 01:01:52,688
It just works that way.

1642
01:01:52,688 --> 01:01:53,428
Yeah, it just works.

1643
01:01:54,888 --> 01:01:56,208
Anyway, I do

1644
01:01:56,208 --> 01:01:58,788
expect Coinbase and Stripe to eventually

1645
01:01:58,788 --> 01:02:00,528
add some compliancy,

1646
01:02:00,708 --> 01:02:02,628
friendly privacy solutions

1647
01:02:02,628 --> 01:02:04,488
and this goes away, but

1648
01:02:04,708 --> 01:02:07,328
unclear if it's going to, it doesn't exist today.

1649
01:02:08,148 --> 01:02:09,888
Could take many, many years.

1650
01:02:10,488 --> 01:02:13,548
So while that window's open, I think a strong argument

1651
01:02:13,548 --> 01:02:17,908
should be made for using much more private Bitcoin payments.

1652
01:02:18,848 --> 01:02:22,468
Speaking of privacy, there is this news item I thought

1653
01:02:22,468 --> 01:02:23,748
I saw today, this morning.

1654
01:02:23,908 --> 01:02:25,088
You see this thing about Hong Kong?

1655
01:02:25,648 --> 01:02:26,288
Oh, yeah.

1656
01:02:26,368 --> 01:02:27,788
They can require you to give you your phone number, right?

1657
01:02:28,228 --> 01:02:28,868
Like, yeah.

1658
01:02:29,408 --> 01:02:31,228
They can require you to decrypt.

1659
01:02:31,228 --> 01:02:31,888
Unlock your phone.

1660
01:02:31,888 --> 01:02:33,728
more than that

1661
01:02:33,728 --> 01:02:34,508
decrypt

1662
01:02:34,508 --> 01:02:35,188
like decrypt

1663
01:02:35,188 --> 01:02:36,028
any app

1664
01:02:36,028 --> 01:02:36,788
in your wallet

1665
01:02:36,788 --> 01:02:38,748
wow

1666
01:02:38,748 --> 01:02:39,708
like you

1667
01:02:39,708 --> 01:02:40,628
have to turn over

1668
01:02:40,628 --> 01:02:41,708
your decryption keys

1669
01:02:41,708 --> 01:02:42,508
so you have no privacy

1670
01:02:42,508 --> 01:02:42,908
at all

1671
01:02:42,908 --> 01:02:44,848
and they can take

1672
01:02:44,848 --> 01:02:45,588
all your money

1673
01:02:45,588 --> 01:02:47,088
so just to clarify

1674
01:02:47,088 --> 01:02:47,928
when you come

1675
01:02:47,928 --> 01:02:48,548
into the US

1676
01:02:48,548 --> 01:02:49,468
if you have

1677
01:02:49,468 --> 01:02:50,568
your iPhone locked

1678
01:02:50,568 --> 01:02:51,788
they can't force you

1679
01:02:51,788 --> 01:02:52,528
to unlock it

1680
01:02:52,528 --> 01:02:53,388
right

1681
01:02:53,388 --> 01:02:54,688
and there's like

1682
01:02:54,688 --> 01:02:55,448
case law around this

1683
01:02:55,448 --> 01:02:55,808
this one

1684
01:02:55,808 --> 01:02:56,028
yeah

1685
01:02:56,028 --> 01:02:57,328
and it's been

1686
01:02:57,328 --> 01:02:58,008
prosecuted

1687
01:02:58,008 --> 01:02:58,588
they've gone through

1688
01:02:58,588 --> 01:02:59,128
the process

1689
01:02:59,128 --> 01:02:59,648
they've decided

1690
01:02:59,648 --> 01:03:00,288
that's not allowed

1691
01:03:00,288 --> 01:03:00,908
if you have your

1692
01:03:00,908 --> 01:03:01,368
Mac

1693
01:03:01,368 --> 01:03:02,328
you open it up

1694
01:03:02,328 --> 01:03:03,368
has a password

1695
01:03:03,368 --> 01:03:04,188
they can't force you

1696
01:03:04,188 --> 01:03:04,908
to type that password

1697
01:03:04,908 --> 01:03:05,248
right

1698
01:03:05,248 --> 01:03:07,668
in Hong Kong

1699
01:03:07,668 --> 01:03:08,268
they can

1700
01:03:08,268 --> 01:03:09,488
but it's more than that

1701
01:03:09,488 --> 01:03:09,688
right

1702
01:03:09,688 --> 01:03:11,008
I didn't read all the details

1703
01:03:11,008 --> 01:03:12,148
but my understanding is like

1704
01:03:12,148 --> 01:03:14,068
it's not just

1705
01:03:14,068 --> 01:03:15,328
access to the device

1706
01:03:15,328 --> 01:03:16,408
but

1707
01:03:16,408 --> 01:03:17,208
they can

1708
01:03:17,208 --> 01:03:18,308
request keys

1709
01:03:18,308 --> 01:03:19,088
yeah

1710
01:03:19,088 --> 01:03:19,668
wow

1711
01:03:19,668 --> 01:03:20,968
so if you had a Bitcoin wallet

1712
01:03:20,968 --> 01:03:21,308
in there

1713
01:03:21,308 --> 01:03:23,328
and then if you refused

1714
01:03:23,328 --> 01:03:24,688
like you could be jailed

1715
01:03:24,688 --> 01:03:25,668
because it's illegal

1716
01:03:25,668 --> 01:03:26,848
damn

1717
01:03:26,848 --> 01:03:28,028
like I literally

1718
01:03:28,028 --> 01:03:29,408
won't travel to Hong Kong now

1719
01:03:29,408 --> 01:03:29,828
no way

1720
01:03:29,828 --> 01:03:31,048
I just literally won't go there

1721
01:03:31,048 --> 01:03:33,088
Even passing through the airport, they can do this.

1722
01:03:33,628 --> 01:03:34,108
Oh, really?

1723
01:03:34,288 --> 01:03:34,448
Yeah.

1724
01:03:34,768 --> 01:03:36,188
So you can't even use it as a hub anymore.

1725
01:03:37,388 --> 01:03:37,788
Wow.

1726
01:03:38,808 --> 01:03:40,028
I did not know that.

1727
01:03:40,948 --> 01:03:41,148
Yeah.

1728
01:03:41,948 --> 01:03:42,208
Yeah.

1729
01:03:42,848 --> 01:03:44,068
And especially, I mean, I wonder...

1730
01:03:44,068 --> 01:03:45,408
That'll be interesting to track.

1731
01:03:46,488 --> 01:03:48,528
How flight patterns and capital changes.

1732
01:03:49,248 --> 01:03:50,928
You know, I'm curious on that because...

1733
01:03:50,928 --> 01:03:52,928
So I was actually there briefly in 2019,

1734
01:03:53,408 --> 01:03:56,708
visiting another Bitcoiner when there was the protest.

1735
01:03:56,708 --> 01:03:59,048
That was a crazy experience, by the way.

1736
01:03:59,048 --> 01:04:03,848
but I given how much the protests were going off at that point I can't imagine this won't like

1737
01:04:03,848 --> 01:04:08,208
incite a whole new like wave of that I mean the whole deal was everyone was using cash that was a

1738
01:04:08,208 --> 01:04:13,168
big thing people were wearing masks when they were going to the ATMs it was like that like everyone

1739
01:04:13,168 --> 01:04:16,468
that was out there that was like part of the culture so I can't imagine that people in Hong

1740
01:04:16,468 --> 01:04:22,308
Kong like lasers everywhere right well there was tear gas it was a while it was very well

1741
01:04:22,308 --> 01:04:26,328
but I can't imagine uh yeah I can't imagine the people of Hong Kong are just gonna like take that

1742
01:04:26,328 --> 01:04:28,968
So it'll be interesting to see what the response is.

1743
01:04:28,968 --> 01:04:31,628
I feel like I just saw this this morning or something.

1744
01:04:31,848 --> 01:04:32,488
This is brand new.

1745
01:04:32,488 --> 01:04:34,068
This past week, a couple days ago.

1746
01:04:34,828 --> 01:04:35,148
Crazy.

1747
01:04:37,968 --> 01:04:39,828
Do you guys want to talk a little bit about open source?

1748
01:04:40,388 --> 01:04:42,408
I'm curious to hear how y'all's thinking has evolved.

1749
01:04:43,528 --> 01:04:44,648
We can a little bit.

1750
01:04:44,808 --> 01:04:47,448
Actually, related to that, there's this Stripe.

1751
01:04:47,608 --> 01:04:50,768
We were just talking about Stripe a little bit with Tempo you mentioned.

1752
01:04:51,268 --> 01:04:51,528
Oh, yeah.

1753
01:04:51,708 --> 01:04:53,468
Stripe had an open source.

1754
01:04:53,788 --> 01:04:54,008
That's right.

1755
01:04:54,728 --> 01:04:55,128
I don't know.

1756
01:04:55,128 --> 01:04:58,648
a project product that was just launched this week

1757
01:04:58,648 --> 01:05:01,248
that tries to do a bunch of orchestration

1758
01:05:01,248 --> 01:05:03,388
around using AI agents,

1759
01:05:03,568 --> 01:05:05,248
but I think it's all kind of closed source

1760
01:05:05,248 --> 01:05:08,508
on Stripe's platform.

1761
01:05:08,648 --> 01:05:09,648
And I think we were...

1762
01:05:09,648 --> 01:05:11,248
This was the MPP that we talked about, no?

1763
01:05:11,488 --> 01:05:12,968
Well, MPP is like the payment protocol,

1764
01:05:13,068 --> 01:05:13,988
but I think they had more of like

1765
01:05:13,988 --> 01:05:15,568
an agent orchestration thing

1766
01:05:15,568 --> 01:05:17,288
that happens through their platform.

1767
01:05:17,468 --> 01:05:19,328
And I shared out in the group,

1768
01:05:19,588 --> 01:05:21,588
like, don't we need like an open one of this?

1769
01:05:21,648 --> 01:05:22,868
I think somebody had tweeted something

1770
01:05:22,868 --> 01:05:23,808
and I shared that with,

1771
01:05:23,808 --> 01:05:25,908
I don't know if you, have you looked into that at all?

1772
01:05:26,548 --> 01:05:26,728
Nope.

1773
01:05:27,008 --> 01:05:27,908
Okay, we'll do it next week.

1774
01:05:30,388 --> 01:05:31,568
I mean, I saw your message.

1775
01:05:31,728 --> 01:05:34,648
It seems like a good, you know, we've been sort of asking the questions like,

1776
01:05:34,868 --> 01:05:38,408
how should the open source AI ecosystem evolve?

1777
01:05:38,808 --> 01:05:39,348
And this seems like...

1778
01:05:39,348 --> 01:05:45,208
But what is, I mean, there's already like, I mean, how does that compare to Conductor

1779
01:05:45,208 --> 01:05:49,048
and there's an even Goose and there's others as well.

1780
01:05:49,468 --> 01:05:51,928
What is it doing that they don't?

1781
01:05:51,928 --> 01:05:53,368
Yeah, I guess we'll have to...

1782
01:05:53,368 --> 01:05:53,488
Yeah.

1783
01:05:53,688 --> 01:05:54,288
It's more for the next time.

1784
01:05:54,308 --> 01:05:54,888
Get deeper on this, yeah.

1785
01:05:55,968 --> 01:05:57,188
Well, specifically, I mean,

1786
01:05:57,268 --> 01:06:00,048
I meant that you had posed the sort of prompt

1787
01:06:00,048 --> 01:06:01,448
that you were thinking about more open source

1788
01:06:01,448 --> 01:06:02,548
in the case of Spiral.

1789
01:06:02,808 --> 01:06:03,648
I don't think we talked about it

1790
01:06:03,648 --> 01:06:04,528
because I think it was after our show,

1791
01:06:04,588 --> 01:06:06,028
but Jack had a really interesting tweet

1792
01:06:06,028 --> 01:06:07,448
that I've been thinking a bit about

1793
01:06:07,448 --> 01:06:09,648
where he basically said, you know,

1794
01:06:09,928 --> 01:06:12,348
open source code is no longer where the value accrues.

1795
01:06:12,668 --> 01:06:14,768
It's going to be data, provenance, protocols,

1796
01:06:15,648 --> 01:06:17,728
evals, and weights in that order.

1797
01:06:18,108 --> 01:06:19,708
Now, that was like a pretty interesting take.

1798
01:06:19,708 --> 01:06:21,108
I don't know if you guys saw that

1799
01:06:21,108 --> 01:06:21,848
or thought about it yet.

1800
01:06:21,848 --> 01:06:23,968
curious if you, what you think he means

1801
01:06:23,968 --> 01:06:25,568
number one and if you agree with it or not.

1802
01:06:26,088 --> 01:06:27,748
Or if you have a different, yeah, different team.

1803
01:06:28,748 --> 01:06:29,728
I know you've thought about this.

1804
01:06:30,828 --> 01:06:31,228
Steve.

1805
01:06:35,268 --> 01:06:36,188
Yeah, I

1806
01:06:36,188 --> 01:06:37,768
spoke into him about it. I think

1807
01:06:37,768 --> 01:06:39,908
it's less about, or

1808
01:06:39,908 --> 01:06:41,888
it's not like FOSS

1809
01:06:41,888 --> 01:06:43,788
no longer has value. It's just these other

1810
01:06:43,788 --> 01:06:45,948
attributes are increasing in value.

1811
01:06:45,948 --> 01:06:48,128
FOSS just changes what is FOSS.

1812
01:06:48,448 --> 01:06:49,548
And so what does that

1813
01:06:49,548 --> 01:06:51,328
mean? And what does that mean for

1814
01:06:51,328 --> 01:06:54,148
people working on open source and organizations

1815
01:06:54,148 --> 01:06:56,008
working on open source, including Spiral.

1816
01:06:56,808 --> 01:06:58,168
I think if you just

1817
01:06:58,168 --> 01:06:59,708
evaluate off still,

1818
01:07:00,108 --> 01:07:01,208
it still matters.

1819
01:07:01,848 --> 01:07:04,328
The free part is having permissive

1820
01:07:04,328 --> 01:07:05,888
license and making it

1821
01:07:05,888 --> 01:07:07,848
accessible to others to use and you can

1822
01:07:07,848 --> 01:07:09,728
build on other people's shoulders

1823
01:07:09,728 --> 01:07:11,188
and bigger and better things.

1824
01:07:12,008 --> 01:07:14,128
Whether an AI is doing that or

1825
01:07:14,128 --> 01:07:15,968
humans, it doesn't matter.

1826
01:07:16,968 --> 01:07:17,968
There's value

1827
01:07:17,968 --> 01:07:19,728
to it being free.

1828
01:07:19,728 --> 01:07:23,228
And then being open, making it auditable, transparent,

1829
01:07:23,928 --> 01:07:26,528
like independently verifiable, reproducible builds,

1830
01:07:26,848 --> 01:07:30,948
all that matters, probably even more so in an AI world.

1831
01:07:31,188 --> 01:07:33,308
Well, I think that's where he's getting out with the providence,

1832
01:07:33,448 --> 01:07:34,788
to see who actually publishes.

1833
01:07:34,788 --> 01:07:38,368
So I think those two things still are true and matter,

1834
01:07:38,528 --> 01:07:42,128
and it doesn't matter who or what is generating code.

1835
01:07:44,168 --> 01:07:48,528
But yes, providence, I think, is extremely important.

1836
01:07:48,528 --> 01:07:51,448
And if you think about models themselves,

1837
01:07:51,668 --> 01:07:54,248
what does it mean to be open?

1838
01:07:54,488 --> 01:07:56,568
I mean, the frontier models are not open.

1839
01:07:57,568 --> 01:07:59,508
A lot of Chinese models are open.

1840
01:08:01,468 --> 01:08:04,788
I don't exactly know where Facebook is at with their strategy,

1841
01:08:04,968 --> 01:08:07,248
but at least it was open.

1842
01:08:07,908 --> 01:08:09,008
But what does open mean?

1843
01:08:09,008 --> 01:08:12,728
Well, the weights being open are a big deal.

1844
01:08:13,068 --> 01:08:16,748
But still, we don't know the inputs to the training

1845
01:08:16,748 --> 01:08:32,682
for those models which is a huge factor as well I was speaking with someone from NVIDIA last night at the Builder event we had here at PB And he said that NVIDIA open models of their training

1846
01:08:32,682 --> 01:08:35,702
do have openness around inputs.

1847
01:08:35,961 --> 01:08:37,821
So they actually have an open data set.

1848
01:08:38,042 --> 01:08:38,221
Yeah.

1849
01:08:38,561 --> 01:08:40,182
So that's huge to me.

1850
01:08:40,182 --> 01:08:40,582
It is huge.

1851
01:08:40,821 --> 01:08:43,461
And so it's on my list to investigate that more,

1852
01:08:43,502 --> 01:08:44,441
to understand those claims.

1853
01:08:44,441 --> 01:08:45,961
and there's some kind of like

1854
01:08:45,961 --> 01:08:47,542
transparency ranking

1855
01:08:47,542 --> 01:08:49,142
and I need to understand

1856
01:08:49,142 --> 01:08:50,401
who does that ranking,

1857
01:08:50,502 --> 01:08:51,341
how does that ranking work,

1858
01:08:51,421 --> 01:08:52,961
but they scored like high on that.

1859
01:08:53,162 --> 01:08:55,321
So I need to understand that better.

1860
01:08:56,281 --> 01:08:58,521
But that seems very promising to me

1861
01:08:58,521 --> 01:08:59,881
because I'd also just like to understand

1862
01:08:59,881 --> 01:09:01,901
how does it even work?

1863
01:09:02,821 --> 01:09:04,682
Like, is it just trust me, bro?

1864
01:09:04,821 --> 01:09:07,582
Or is there like cryptography

1865
01:09:07,582 --> 01:09:08,682
or verifiability

1866
01:09:08,682 --> 01:09:11,721
to what is being used for training?

1867
01:09:12,002 --> 01:09:13,002
So to me, I mean,

1868
01:09:13,142 --> 01:09:14,321
this gets a lot at,

1869
01:09:14,321 --> 01:09:17,881
And I agree, it's like the idea of what is open source, where the value is, is just shifting.

1870
01:09:18,021 --> 01:09:19,801
Like open source is still super amazing.

1871
01:09:19,941 --> 01:09:23,841
It's just like instead of the actual labor of writing code, it's now like, okay, what

1872
01:09:23,841 --> 01:09:27,441
matters is the data, like the food we put in, junk in, junk out.

1873
01:09:28,142 --> 01:09:32,102
And, you know, we talked about this almost a year ago on the show where we talked about

1874
01:09:32,102 --> 01:09:33,481
one of like the biggest pipe dreams.

1875
01:09:33,801 --> 01:09:39,142
So I've long been, I guess, a little bit concerned that open weights are certainly not enough.

1876
01:09:39,321 --> 01:09:43,122
And that, you know, even as people use these Chinese open source models, it's cool.

1877
01:09:43,122 --> 01:09:46,521
You know, I love watching Kimmy and all these things do amazing stuff.

1878
01:09:46,961 --> 01:09:51,381
But I am not at all convinced that we understand these models well enough to believe that there's

1879
01:09:51,381 --> 01:09:52,602
not like poison pills put in there.

1880
01:09:52,662 --> 01:09:54,521
And that could happen by a company, could happen by a country.

1881
01:09:54,941 --> 01:09:58,542
But, you know, if I don't trust a lot of the closed labs, I certainly am not going to just

1882
01:09:58,542 --> 01:10:00,441
trust China as being like just altruistic.

1883
01:10:00,521 --> 01:10:00,881
It's great.

1884
01:10:00,961 --> 01:10:02,542
Don't get me wrong that we have these to play with.

1885
01:10:03,042 --> 01:10:07,921
But to me, I think one of the greatest sort of public goods would be, yeah, like we basically,

1886
01:10:08,122 --> 01:10:08,642
here's the model.

1887
01:10:08,741 --> 01:10:09,461
You can see the weights.

1888
01:10:09,461 --> 01:10:16,582
You can see cryptographically proved every piece of data, which keys submitted it, how it was used in training in the model.

1889
01:10:17,061 --> 01:10:23,042
And I think our discussion at that point basically ended with, well, this would be great, but it would be so expensive.

1890
01:10:23,321 --> 01:10:28,941
You would need maybe like some early Bitcoiners that are very sort of ethos aligned to fund something like this.

1891
01:10:28,981 --> 01:10:32,241
And even then, you couldn't really probably get the right talent to do a big training run.

1892
01:10:32,662 --> 01:10:36,521
But I think what we're seeing now, and I think you kind of pushed back on, we could do like a distillation of the models.

1893
01:10:36,821 --> 01:10:38,122
Maybe that would be like a first step.

1894
01:10:38,122 --> 01:10:46,502
But I wonder now, as training, it seems like you can train pretty good models, maybe not exactly at the frontier, for a lot less money.

1895
01:10:47,821 --> 01:10:59,021
I mean, maybe just literally having a fleet of American-made or even global-made open-source models from a community, maybe the compute, maybe we have the marketplace of GPUs that can actually run the training runs itself.

1896
01:10:59,021 --> 01:11:01,241
but where every single input in there

1897
01:11:01,241 --> 01:11:02,841
is cryptographically proved and rolled up

1898
01:11:02,841 --> 01:11:04,182
and then actually,

1899
01:11:04,901 --> 01:11:05,761
and this is another idea I have,

1900
01:11:05,821 --> 01:11:06,622
I want to run by you,

1901
01:11:07,241 --> 01:11:09,261
stamped on the Bitcoin,

1902
01:11:09,741 --> 01:11:10,861
on Bitcoin, right?

1903
01:11:10,921 --> 01:11:11,702
And you can add that,

1904
01:11:11,841 --> 01:11:13,202
like this is when this model was created

1905
01:11:13,202 --> 01:11:14,042
and all the roll-ups.

1906
01:11:14,761 --> 01:11:15,981
So that's increasingly,

1907
01:11:16,602 --> 01:11:18,921
I would love to see a fleet of global

1908
01:11:18,921 --> 01:11:20,061
or American-made models

1909
01:11:20,061 --> 01:11:21,361
that follow that paradigm.

1910
01:11:22,682 --> 01:11:23,901
Yeah, and like I said,

1911
01:11:23,941 --> 01:11:25,502
I need to study the NVIDIA stuff more,

1912
01:11:25,582 --> 01:11:27,602
but that seems really promising to me

1913
01:11:27,602 --> 01:11:28,941
just because they're in a position

1914
01:11:28,941 --> 01:11:31,142
to be able to dump so much money into it.

1915
01:11:31,561 --> 01:11:34,702
And strategically, it makes sense for them to do this,

1916
01:11:34,961 --> 01:11:37,801
whereas it doesn't for the other frontier AI labs.

1917
01:11:37,961 --> 01:11:39,521
The other idea that I was thinking on,

1918
01:11:39,602 --> 01:11:41,961
from a spiral perspective,

1919
01:11:42,321 --> 01:11:43,441
because you guys obviously have funded

1920
01:11:43,441 --> 01:11:45,341
a lot of open source devs, but you also have LDK,

1921
01:11:45,821 --> 01:11:47,261
is something, this is a little chat

1922
01:11:47,261 --> 01:11:48,381
I was having with Claude last night,

1923
01:11:48,461 --> 01:11:50,082
but PDK, Providence DevKit.

1924
01:11:50,582 --> 01:11:52,381
I've been thinking a bit more about this as well,

1925
01:11:52,381 --> 01:11:56,281
where it's like, my understanding,

1926
01:11:56,401 --> 01:11:57,561
I'm not an expert in open timestamps,

1927
01:11:57,561 --> 01:12:00,801
but open timestamps is great for stamping something when it happens.

1928
01:12:01,021 --> 01:12:02,461
So like when in the order of blocks,

1929
01:12:02,941 --> 01:12:06,921
but maybe I don't think we have a good way of tying that into more of like the

1930
01:12:06,921 --> 01:12:07,281
who yet,

1931
01:12:07,341 --> 01:12:10,502
but I'm wondering if there's a way to make it super easy to stamp things with

1932
01:12:10,502 --> 01:12:12,441
a Nostra key and open timestamps.

1933
01:12:12,521 --> 01:12:16,461
You have a time and a Nostra key that you could go and like survey various

1934
01:12:16,461 --> 01:12:17,642
relays to try and find,

1935
01:12:17,761 --> 01:12:18,521
you know,

1936
01:12:18,582 --> 01:12:20,461
whatever reputation for that key that,

1937
01:12:20,741 --> 01:12:20,921
you know,

1938
01:12:20,961 --> 01:12:22,301
put this data in or something like that.

1939
01:12:22,702 --> 01:12:23,682
I don't know what that would look like,

1940
01:12:23,721 --> 01:12:26,781
but increasingly that seems like a very important kind of open source,

1941
01:12:26,781 --> 01:12:30,901
not necessarily a company, but sort of tool for humanity

1942
01:12:30,901 --> 01:12:35,381
to make it really easy to track provenance, reputation, or data.

1943
01:12:38,321 --> 01:12:38,841
Agreed.

1944
01:12:39,321 --> 01:12:43,941
Just need to, I need to see a proposal or think through a proposal

1945
01:12:43,941 --> 01:12:47,261
or a liquid plot on a proposal to make it a little more concrete,

1946
01:12:47,602 --> 01:12:49,921
but totally agree with the concept and the goals.

1947
01:12:49,921 --> 01:12:50,301
Yeah.

1948
01:12:50,722 --> 01:12:55,122
I mean, as far as, yeah, I mentioned maybe a week or two ago,

1949
01:12:55,122 --> 01:12:58,102
spirals thinking about an AI initiative

1950
01:12:58,102 --> 01:12:59,341
and what would that look like.

1951
01:13:00,502 --> 01:13:03,622
I can speak to my thinking on the criteria.

1952
01:13:03,941 --> 01:13:04,441
Yeah, please do.

1953
01:13:04,682 --> 01:13:06,521
I mean, there's the obvious that,

1954
01:13:06,642 --> 01:13:07,821
well, we want to work on a project

1955
01:13:07,821 --> 01:13:10,021
that's going to have impact and value to the world.

1956
01:13:10,142 --> 01:13:11,301
I mean, everyone does, right?

1957
01:13:11,341 --> 01:13:12,122
So of course we have that.

1958
01:13:13,042 --> 01:13:15,602
The most unique part of the analysis, though,

1959
01:13:15,622 --> 01:13:17,401
is how to work on something

1960
01:13:17,401 --> 01:13:19,361
that's not going to just get run over in three months

1961
01:13:19,361 --> 01:13:21,222
by the big AI labs or NVIDIA

1962
01:13:21,222 --> 01:13:23,582
or 50 startups in Silicon Valley.

1963
01:13:23,582 --> 01:13:26,261
we want to work on something

1964
01:13:26,261 --> 01:13:28,122
because we're going to have a small budget

1965
01:13:28,122 --> 01:13:30,502
a tiny team, maybe one

1966
01:13:30,502 --> 01:13:32,042
three people, something like that

1967
01:13:32,042 --> 01:13:33,321
a small grant program

1968
01:13:33,321 --> 01:13:36,162
and so

1969
01:13:36,162 --> 01:13:38,222
with a small

1970
01:13:38,222 --> 01:13:40,042
but mighty team

1971
01:13:40,042 --> 01:13:42,241
and effort, what's something we can

1972
01:13:42,241 --> 01:13:44,201
invest our time into and like have

1973
01:13:44,201 --> 01:13:45,981
reasonable confidence that

1974
01:13:45,981 --> 01:13:48,222
there's not going to be a thousand

1975
01:13:48,222 --> 01:13:50,061
times the investment in it three months later

1976
01:13:50,061 --> 01:13:51,901
or 12 months later or even years later

1977
01:13:51,901 --> 01:13:55,682
Right. Like picking the right problem that's super important.

1978
01:13:55,722 --> 01:14:02,821
Or just that filter. So it's like a litmus test. We should brainstorm all the ideas we could work on, but then apply it to this criteria.

1979
01:14:03,222 --> 01:14:07,981
So, well, one, we have the luxury of non-commercial. Spiral doesn't have to make money.

1980
01:14:08,821 --> 01:14:14,021
We don't, like, we explicitly don't want to have, you know, revenue, customers.

1981
01:14:14,401 --> 01:14:18,261
I mean, we want people adopting what we build, but we don't want revenue.

1982
01:14:18,261 --> 01:14:22,841
So, I've never heard those words before.

1983
01:14:24,082 --> 01:14:27,142
Well, it's our strongest lever, right?

1984
01:14:27,281 --> 01:14:29,861
I mean, because it allows us,

1985
01:14:30,021 --> 01:14:32,002
but there's certainly high impact things

1986
01:14:32,002 --> 01:14:33,701
that don't have revenue.

1987
01:14:33,901 --> 01:14:35,142
What do those things typically be?

1988
01:14:35,201 --> 01:14:38,321
So the next criteria is,

1989
01:14:39,142 --> 01:14:43,021
I believe like the further away you are from the customer,

1990
01:14:43,682 --> 01:14:45,502
the more safe you are.

1991
01:14:46,142 --> 01:14:46,602
So if you're-

1992
01:14:46,602 --> 01:14:47,682
Safe from revenue.

1993
01:14:47,682 --> 01:14:47,901
Yeah.

1994
01:14:48,261 --> 01:14:49,542
safe from

1995
01:14:49,542 --> 01:14:52,281
being run over.

1996
01:14:52,301 --> 01:14:53,622
Keep that revenue away, please.

1997
01:14:53,821 --> 01:14:56,122
I mean, look at Goose.

1998
01:14:56,241 --> 01:14:58,241
Goose was launched and it was novel

1999
01:14:58,241 --> 01:14:59,722
in many ways and now

2000
01:14:59,722 --> 01:15:02,201
others have caught up and surpassed it in many ways.

2001
01:15:02,921 --> 01:15:04,321
That doesn't mean Goose is dead

2002
01:15:04,321 --> 01:15:06,321
or going to die, but it does

2003
01:15:06,321 --> 01:15:08,021
seem to me like Goose needs to be more

2004
01:15:08,021 --> 01:15:10,241
opinionated and focused and then be world class

2005
01:15:10,241 --> 01:15:12,222
at that and defend itself versus

2006
01:15:12,222 --> 01:15:13,102
trying to be everything

2007
01:15:13,102 --> 01:15:15,861
and anything and everything to everyone.

2008
01:15:18,261 --> 01:15:20,361
And it's very much, I mean, it has a GUI, right?

2009
01:15:20,401 --> 01:15:21,901
So it's very much like in your face.

2010
01:15:22,061 --> 01:15:25,421
I mean, as a company, trying to accrue value,

2011
01:15:25,421 --> 01:15:27,521
one way to do that is you acquire customers

2012
01:15:27,521 --> 01:15:29,502
and you have a direct relationship with them, right?

2013
01:15:29,722 --> 01:15:32,961
So the further way you are from that,

2014
01:15:33,261 --> 01:15:35,082
the more, the safer you are.

2015
01:15:35,481 --> 01:15:37,281
But that doesn't mean you can't deliver impact.

2016
01:15:37,401 --> 01:15:38,061
So what does that mean?

2017
01:15:38,162 --> 01:15:40,642
Well, protocol work and low-level software work

2018
01:15:40,642 --> 01:15:42,542
and SDKs, like SDKs,

2019
01:15:42,801 --> 01:15:43,841
you used to be able to make money.

2020
01:15:44,102 --> 01:15:45,321
Borland made money doing that

2021
01:15:45,321 --> 01:15:46,102
and Microsoft made money.

2022
01:15:46,222 --> 01:15:47,662
And then now it's free, right?

2023
01:15:47,722 --> 01:15:48,042
I mean, like,

2024
01:15:48,261 --> 01:16:06,261
No one makes money off SDKs. So SDKs, protocol work, low-level software, also like protocols, but like peer-to-peer networks, the protocol software. All of that stuff is more defensible, right?

2025
01:16:06,261 --> 01:16:10,801
So I think example projects would be

2026
01:16:10,801 --> 01:16:13,662
like a peer-to-peer inference network

2027
01:16:13,662 --> 01:16:16,222
or a peer-to-peer training network.

2028
01:16:17,182 --> 01:16:21,662
Our friend Paul Itoy swung by a week or two ago.

2029
01:16:22,102 --> 01:16:23,861
Are you an investor in Stackware?

2030
01:16:24,801 --> 01:16:26,122
Great idea guy.

2031
01:16:26,821 --> 01:16:28,182
And he brought a friend along.

2032
01:16:28,381 --> 01:16:30,662
We talked about his friends all about

2033
01:16:30,662 --> 01:16:32,021
a peer-to-peer training.

2034
01:16:32,841 --> 01:16:34,921
So getting back to some kind of project

2035
01:16:34,921 --> 01:16:36,002
around Providence,

2036
01:16:36,261 --> 01:16:39,142
I haven't done the math on this

2037
01:16:39,142 --> 01:16:40,061
or any kind of analysis,

2038
01:16:40,301 --> 01:16:40,981
so I don't even know

2039
01:16:40,981 --> 01:16:41,921
if this is one of these things like,

2040
01:16:42,021 --> 01:16:43,622
oh, well, Bitcoin mine

2041
01:16:43,622 --> 01:16:44,921
with our laptops or whatever,

2042
01:16:45,042 --> 01:16:46,241
which is not realistic.

2043
01:16:46,481 --> 01:16:47,461
So maybe it's a situation.

2044
01:16:47,582 --> 01:16:47,921
I don't know.

2045
01:16:48,002 --> 01:16:50,281
But imagine a peer-to-peer network

2046
01:16:50,281 --> 01:16:55,341
of GPUs that do train

2047
01:16:55,341 --> 01:16:57,341
and part of the protocol,

2048
01:16:57,682 --> 01:16:58,741
I mean, both the ethos,

2049
01:16:58,841 --> 01:17:00,521
but also enforced in the protocol

2050
01:17:00,521 --> 01:17:02,341
is some kind of providence

2051
01:17:02,341 --> 01:17:03,261
and key signing

2052
01:17:03,261 --> 01:17:05,602
and open timestamping

2053
01:17:05,602 --> 01:17:07,421
on the Bitcoin blockchain or whatever solution

2054
01:17:07,421 --> 01:17:09,701
to train

2055
01:17:09,701 --> 01:17:11,461
models. That would be amazing.

2056
01:17:12,182 --> 01:17:13,521
So if there's a there

2057
01:17:13,521 --> 01:17:15,682
there, if no one's really doing that

2058
01:17:15,682 --> 01:17:17,561
and there's a credible plan

2059
01:17:17,561 --> 01:17:19,502
to build that, I think that's super

2060
01:17:19,502 --> 01:17:20,421
attractive. I agree.

2061
01:17:21,082 --> 01:17:23,722
And I think that there's interesting commercial opportunity

2062
01:17:23,722 --> 01:17:25,582
obviously commercial opportunity around that too.

2063
01:17:26,122 --> 01:17:27,801
You should chat, I think

2064
01:17:27,801 --> 01:17:29,701
Christopher

2065
01:17:29,701 --> 01:17:31,502
David, who I've mentioned with OpenAgents,

2066
01:17:31,502 --> 01:17:33,381
he's taken various shots on call with this and

2067
01:17:33,381 --> 01:17:34,622
has a new one coming out now.

2068
01:17:35,602 --> 01:17:37,061
His is more commercial focused,

2069
01:17:37,241 --> 01:17:38,521
but still would be interesting to...

2070
01:17:38,521 --> 01:17:39,841
Yeah, I need to...

2071
01:17:39,841 --> 01:17:41,042
He's coming until next week.

2072
01:17:41,582 --> 01:17:41,861
Oh, good.

2073
01:17:42,042 --> 01:17:44,222
All right, well, I'll try to meet with him

2074
01:17:44,222 --> 01:17:46,122
and like to study that more.

2075
01:17:46,341 --> 01:17:47,082
Actually, that popped up.

2076
01:17:47,241 --> 01:17:49,881
I was looking at GitHub dependencies.

2077
01:17:51,222 --> 01:17:53,401
I was looking at that for different projects,

2078
01:17:53,542 --> 01:17:55,122
for the adversarial part,

2079
01:17:55,261 --> 01:17:56,441
meaning like supply chain attacks.

2080
01:17:56,441 --> 01:17:59,441
But then I looked at the dependents.

2081
01:17:59,642 --> 01:18:00,682
So for the LDK project,

2082
01:18:00,781 --> 01:18:01,921
who is using LDK?

2083
01:18:02,201 --> 01:18:03,921
And I saw open agents pop up.

2084
01:18:03,921 --> 01:18:06,481
So I need to look at how they're using LDK.

2085
01:18:06,622 --> 01:18:09,082
But there are like over 800 projects using LDK.

2086
01:18:09,201 --> 01:18:09,502
Oh, wow.

2087
01:18:09,521 --> 01:18:09,881
Pretty cool.

2088
01:18:10,082 --> 01:18:10,341
That's sweet.

2089
01:18:11,002 --> 01:18:11,521
Yeah, anyway.

2090
01:18:12,321 --> 01:18:14,921
It's also worth looking at the field of interpretability.

2091
01:18:15,222 --> 01:18:15,542
Yes.

2092
01:18:15,642 --> 01:18:16,921
Because that sort of like,

2093
01:18:17,642 --> 01:18:19,722
instead of necessarily training your own model,

2094
01:18:19,722 --> 01:18:21,061
if you can work with a model

2095
01:18:21,061 --> 01:18:22,701
that has good interpretability hooks,

2096
01:18:22,781 --> 01:18:25,622
maybe you can save a lot of the cost of training,

2097
01:18:25,722 --> 01:18:27,542
but still get a grounded understanding

2098
01:18:27,542 --> 01:18:29,662
in how it is making the decisions

2099
01:18:29,662 --> 01:18:30,801
and what paths it's running through.

2100
01:18:31,521 --> 01:18:32,741
Maybe build like a test suite

2101
01:18:32,741 --> 01:18:35,381
to understand how it makes decisions

2102
01:18:35,381 --> 01:18:36,061
and how they're consistent

2103
01:18:36,061 --> 01:18:37,002
with what you would otherwise

2104
01:18:37,002 --> 01:18:37,861
have trained yourself.

2105
01:18:38,602 --> 01:18:40,502
I'd like to explore that more as well.

2106
01:18:40,921 --> 01:18:41,461
And by the way,

2107
01:18:41,521 --> 01:18:43,401
I mean, the interpretability thing,

2108
01:18:43,521 --> 01:18:44,582
my understanding is there's people

2109
01:18:44,582 --> 01:18:46,301
working on various ZK roll-ups

2110
01:18:46,301 --> 01:18:48,261
or I guess ZK proofs and whatnot

2111
01:18:48,261 --> 01:18:49,662
from maybe more crypto land

2112
01:18:49,662 --> 01:18:50,481
that have come into AI.

2113
01:18:51,682 --> 01:18:53,321
But I haven't seen anyone do this well.

2114
01:18:53,441 --> 01:18:54,542
It would be extremely useful

2115
01:18:54,542 --> 01:18:55,981
if you could make compute,

2116
01:18:56,082 --> 01:18:57,781
different kinds of compute more fungible,

2117
01:18:57,921 --> 01:18:59,381
which I think some of the ZK stuff

2118
01:18:59,381 --> 01:19:00,122
could also help with

2119
01:19:00,122 --> 01:19:00,881
because then you could actually

2120
01:19:00,881 --> 01:19:01,542
build a marketplace.

2121
01:19:01,542 --> 01:19:03,461
it's hard to build a marketplace for compute

2122
01:19:03,461 --> 01:19:06,162
if there's too many distinct types

2123
01:19:06,162 --> 01:19:09,301
catching up on that

2124
01:19:09,301 --> 01:19:11,602
we have a lot of people's commentary

2125
01:19:11,602 --> 01:19:18,421
avoiding revenue means no one wants to bother you

2126
01:19:18,421 --> 01:19:19,761
like moving into the middle west

2127
01:19:19,761 --> 01:19:24,761
you mentioned model scrutiny a few weeks ago

2128
01:19:24,761 --> 01:19:26,662
I love that concept

2129
01:19:26,662 --> 01:19:31,301
if there's something of substance that could be done there

2130
01:19:31,301 --> 01:19:34,901
I think that could be an interesting pursuit as well.

2131
01:19:35,642 --> 01:19:37,162
The Providence thing I'll come back to, though,

2132
01:19:37,222 --> 01:19:38,941
and the reason, I mean, I also love the interpretability.

2133
01:19:39,122 --> 01:19:39,881
That's a huge unlock.

2134
01:19:40,361 --> 01:19:43,201
But the Providence thing using Bitcoin,

2135
01:19:43,461 --> 01:19:46,722
I think Bitcoin is the only thing that can really do this well.

2136
01:19:47,042 --> 01:19:48,301
Some timestamping on Bitcoin,

2137
01:19:48,441 --> 01:19:50,321
because otherwise, what is the global source of truth?

2138
01:19:50,701 --> 01:19:51,381
So it's kind of interesting.

2139
01:19:51,561 --> 01:19:53,921
I think probably something like Nostra keys as well,

2140
01:19:54,061 --> 01:19:56,142
so you can actually have identity and reputation

2141
01:19:56,142 --> 01:19:57,841
that you can easily query and find.

2142
01:19:58,301 --> 01:20:00,401
But I think in order, it's kind of interesting

2143
01:20:00,401 --> 01:20:02,561
because this may be one of the legacies of Bitcoin

2144
01:20:02,561 --> 01:20:06,981
is it's the only way to prove provenance in the AI world.

2145
01:20:07,142 --> 01:20:10,381
So that's one of its ultimate biggest gifts.

2146
01:20:12,881 --> 01:20:15,301
Which also, I guess, maybe on a future show

2147
01:20:15,301 --> 01:20:16,561
you can talk about your provenance ideas,

2148
01:20:16,701 --> 01:20:17,921
but I'm pretty excited about those.

2149
01:20:17,981 --> 01:20:18,841
You're talking about the naming stuff?

2150
01:20:18,941 --> 01:20:19,142
Yeah.

2151
01:20:19,461 --> 01:20:22,021
Actually, we don't have to talk a ton about it right now,

2152
01:20:22,122 --> 01:20:26,881
but I have been intrigued by the Flint community.

2153
01:20:26,881 --> 01:20:28,301
The discussion that happened in the Flint community

2154
01:20:28,301 --> 01:20:31,941
got me thinking about that project idea again.

2155
01:20:32,421 --> 01:20:34,341
And then I actually built it this past week

2156
01:20:34,341 --> 01:20:35,261
and I kind of like it.

2157
01:20:35,341 --> 01:20:36,881
It feels like, you know, sometimes I build things

2158
01:20:36,881 --> 01:20:38,241
and I get like, you know, halfway and I'm like,

2159
01:20:38,341 --> 01:20:40,021
ugh, this actually has all kinds of problems.

2160
01:20:40,082 --> 01:20:40,561
It's not that good.

2161
01:20:40,901 --> 01:20:42,682
I got pretty far into this.

2162
01:20:42,741 --> 01:20:44,602
I'm like, actually it looks better than I thought

2163
01:20:44,602 --> 01:20:45,461
even for a bunch of reasons.

2164
01:20:45,582 --> 01:20:47,341
So I'm gaining more optimism on it.

2165
01:20:47,341 --> 01:20:51,301
But I also think it feels like the original design

2166
01:20:51,301 --> 01:20:53,261
and thinking around it was really around

2167
01:20:53,261 --> 01:20:56,021
more like self-sovereign names.

2168
01:20:56,341 --> 01:20:57,622
And I actually think there may be

2169
01:20:58,301 --> 01:21:03,801
a new or better framing around agent-based network resources.

2170
01:21:04,642 --> 01:21:07,241
Because you think about the future of the internet

2171
01:21:07,241 --> 01:21:09,561
is going to be mostly agents interacting,

2172
01:21:09,821 --> 01:21:13,122
and then human readable names are going to be valuable

2173
01:21:13,122 --> 01:21:15,301
when humans want to use network resources.

2174
01:21:15,502 --> 01:21:18,182
We're going to want to use a name that we're familiar with.

2175
01:21:18,182 --> 01:21:24,061
And so we need some way to map the human desired resource

2176
01:21:24,061 --> 01:21:28,182
to something that agents can understand and work with pretty flexibly.

2177
01:21:28,301 --> 01:21:32,241
So I'll need your guys' help in brainstorming that a little bit more,

2178
01:21:32,281 --> 01:21:33,321
but it feels like there's something,

2179
01:21:34,122 --> 01:21:36,301
in a sense it's like the same core idea,

2180
01:21:36,561 --> 01:21:41,741
but instead of just thinking about names for humans to be self-sovereign,

2181
01:21:41,821 --> 01:21:44,381
there are actually names for humans to reach.

2182
01:21:44,881 --> 01:21:47,082
This could be a spiral AI project.

2183
01:21:48,521 --> 01:21:49,042
Actually.

2184
01:21:49,361 --> 01:21:53,682
I mean, if it nicely addresses AI in an AI world

2185
01:21:53,682 --> 01:21:57,682
with a Bitcoin tie-in, that hits the sweet spot.

2186
01:21:57,682 --> 01:21:58,662
I love it.

2187
01:21:58,941 --> 01:22:00,222
Sorry to steal your project.

2188
01:22:00,361 --> 01:22:01,162
No, please.

2189
01:22:01,542 --> 01:22:02,341
It's open source.

2190
01:22:02,461 --> 01:22:03,082
It's meant to be.

2191
01:22:03,461 --> 01:22:04,881
You can apply for a job.

2192
01:22:06,002 --> 01:22:07,241
DK's about to join Steve's team.

2193
01:22:07,682 --> 01:22:09,901
What would be an example that you can think of

2194
01:22:09,901 --> 01:22:11,421
of like a resource where you need a name?

2195
01:22:12,261 --> 01:22:14,421
Well, you know, imagine some future

2196
01:22:14,421 --> 01:22:16,941
where you're not using the internet the way you use it today.

2197
01:22:17,182 --> 01:22:19,122
Today you type something into a browser,

2198
01:22:19,682 --> 01:22:21,082
but maybe in the future you're going to speak.

2199
01:22:21,082 --> 01:22:22,361
I'm just talking like this.

2200
01:22:22,381 --> 01:22:23,622
You're going to speak to a phone.

2201
01:22:23,622 --> 01:22:24,102
You just want to say,

2202
01:22:24,102 --> 01:22:27,642
go to like that place where you got those,

2203
01:22:27,861 --> 01:22:30,042
you know, I don't know, those teddy bears.

2204
01:22:30,502 --> 01:22:32,182
Like you remember that teddy bear store?

2205
01:22:32,241 --> 01:22:33,182
Go to that teddy bear store.

2206
01:22:33,281 --> 01:22:35,722
And then it has to kind of figure out what that means, right?

2207
01:22:36,321 --> 01:22:37,521
And where that's located.

2208
01:22:37,622 --> 01:22:39,861
Now, you could imagine there's a convenient way

2209
01:22:39,861 --> 01:22:41,602
to use existing infrastructure

2210
01:22:41,602 --> 01:22:43,841
and provide the mapping to the .com and stuff.

2211
01:22:44,222 --> 01:22:46,321
But like, I would imagine there's some future

2212
01:22:46,321 --> 01:22:48,881
where there's like, there's a bunch of transactions

2213
01:22:48,881 --> 01:22:51,881
that have been accomplished by some agent

2214
01:22:51,881 --> 01:22:55,561
that has some hold on a teddy bear manufacturing process.

2215
01:22:56,201 --> 01:22:57,241
And so when I say teddy bear,

2216
01:22:57,321 --> 01:22:58,461
I just want to get the thing, right?

2217
01:22:59,321 --> 01:23:01,301
I'm thinking about a resource I want to get.

2218
01:23:01,361 --> 01:23:02,622
I'm not necessarily thinking about

2219
01:23:02,622 --> 01:23:04,921
how I navigate the web to get to it

2220
01:23:04,921 --> 01:23:06,261
or my checkout flows and all that.

2221
01:23:06,281 --> 01:23:08,102
I'm just sort of asking for a resource.

2222
01:23:08,602 --> 01:23:09,622
And I think a lot of...

2223
01:23:09,622 --> 01:23:11,722
Why would you need a human-readable name for that resource?

2224
01:23:11,821 --> 01:23:12,781
Like if I'm talking to my model,

2225
01:23:12,921 --> 01:23:13,801
I can just say teddy bear.

2226
01:23:13,961 --> 01:23:15,082
I can say, okay, I'm a teddy bear

2227
01:23:15,082 --> 01:23:16,082
and go and figure it out.

2228
01:23:16,741 --> 01:23:18,781
I guess it depends on,

2229
01:23:19,281 --> 01:23:21,582
like do I care about how it solves it ever

2230
01:23:21,582 --> 01:23:22,781
and should it check in with me

2231
01:23:22,781 --> 01:23:24,122
about how it's going to solve it?

2232
01:23:24,182 --> 01:23:25,441
Like there's usually trade-offs,

2233
01:23:25,521 --> 01:23:26,722
like what's the cost?

2234
01:23:26,801 --> 01:23:27,461
What's the quality?

2235
01:23:27,722 --> 01:23:28,682
Where's it manufactured?

2236
01:23:28,901 --> 01:23:30,341
What are the ingredients?

2237
01:23:30,542 --> 01:23:33,142
So maybe I want to explain something of that

2238
01:23:33,142 --> 01:23:34,481
or I actually have a trusted brand.

2239
01:23:34,761 --> 01:23:37,182
Like, oh, Teddy Bear Store

2240
01:23:37,182 --> 01:23:40,201
is the place that I like to buy my teddy bears

2241
01:23:40,201 --> 01:23:42,602
because I know that they're eFast free or whatever,

2242
01:23:42,701 --> 01:23:45,521
you know, whatever the criteria would be.

2243
01:23:45,602 --> 01:23:47,722
So in a sense, it's like the concept of a brand

2244
01:23:47,722 --> 01:23:49,921
is the durable, sustainable thing

2245
01:23:49,921 --> 01:23:50,941
that exists in the world.

2246
01:23:50,941 --> 01:23:57,201
it's how we think of things like oh i have nike shoes a tesla car it's like i don't have to do

2247
01:23:57,201 --> 01:24:02,401
the research again i just understand that it has the properties that i've already done the why do

2248
01:24:02,401 --> 01:24:07,042
you think though if the models are super good at like parsing this stuff why do you think that

2249
01:24:07,042 --> 01:24:13,861
being able to say hey i need you to go to tesla and tesla oh that's domain name versus just saying

2250
01:24:13,861 --> 01:24:18,162
i need you to go get a tesla and like tesla dominates so that they find tesla well i think

2251
01:24:18,162 --> 01:24:19,461
it's less about

2252
01:24:19,461 --> 01:24:20,642
I need you to go here.

2253
01:24:20,761 --> 01:24:21,921
It's I want this thing

2254
01:24:21,921 --> 01:24:22,741
and I want the version

2255
01:24:22,741 --> 01:24:23,201
of this thing

2256
01:24:23,201 --> 01:24:23,841
that I know of

2257
01:24:23,841 --> 01:24:24,481
by this name.

2258
01:24:25,182 --> 01:24:25,861
It's exactly

2259
01:24:25,861 --> 01:24:26,841
what a brand is.

2260
01:24:26,961 --> 01:24:27,061
Right.

2261
01:24:27,261 --> 01:24:27,961
A brand is a way to do.

2262
01:24:27,961 --> 01:24:28,301
But you don't think

2263
01:24:28,301 --> 01:24:29,201
the models will be smart

2264
01:24:29,201 --> 01:24:30,042
enough to discern that

2265
01:24:30,042 --> 01:24:30,741
just from like

2266
01:24:30,741 --> 01:24:32,722
the underlying text itself?

2267
01:24:33,981 --> 01:24:35,021
I guess it depends

2268
01:24:35,021 --> 01:24:35,582
on how much

2269
01:24:35,582 --> 01:24:37,301
of the intelligence

2270
01:24:37,301 --> 01:24:38,222
you're relying on

2271
01:24:38,222 --> 01:24:38,901
versus how much

2272
01:24:38,901 --> 01:24:39,481
you're using

2273
01:24:39,481 --> 01:24:40,441
to demand a resource

2274
01:24:40,441 --> 01:24:41,082
that you want.

2275
01:24:41,241 --> 01:24:41,961
Like I know

2276
01:24:41,961 --> 01:24:43,201
when I order this way,

2277
01:24:43,301 --> 01:24:43,901
I know when I order

2278
01:24:43,901 --> 01:24:44,761
from Unhuman Coffee,

2279
01:24:44,881 --> 01:24:45,981
I get coffee that I like.

2280
01:24:46,182 --> 01:24:47,162
If I just tell my agent

2281
01:24:47,162 --> 01:24:47,921
to order coffee,

2282
01:24:48,162 --> 01:24:49,261
I get random coffee.

2283
01:24:49,341 --> 01:24:50,502
I might get the cheapest coffee.

2284
01:24:50,662 --> 01:24:51,142
Right, right.

2285
01:24:51,281 --> 01:24:51,781
I get your point.

2286
01:24:52,021 --> 01:24:53,021
How do you think about...

2287
01:24:53,021 --> 01:24:56,421
Humans like have brands and names and ideas in their mind

2288
01:24:56,421 --> 01:24:57,961
and then they can like demand them.

2289
01:24:58,261 --> 01:24:59,321
How do you think about that?

2290
01:24:59,441 --> 01:25:01,602
So let's say Nick wanted to buy Unhuman Coffee

2291
01:25:01,602 --> 01:25:03,301
as a name on Bitcoin.

2292
01:25:03,781 --> 01:25:05,722
How do you think about how the end user

2293
01:25:05,722 --> 01:25:07,222
that wants something done would,

2294
01:25:07,502 --> 01:25:09,222
okay, like signal I want...

2295
01:25:09,222 --> 01:25:10,521
Like if I just say Unhuman Coffee,

2296
01:25:11,241 --> 01:25:11,981
whether or not, like,

2297
01:25:12,241 --> 01:25:13,841
how do I signal I want this tied

2298
01:25:13,841 --> 01:25:15,461
to this specific name owned on Bitcoin?

2299
01:25:15,461 --> 01:25:21,162
how do you signal you're saying how yeah like if i if i'm just talking to my agent i say hey

2300
01:25:21,162 --> 01:25:25,921
give me coffee from unhuman coffee even if nick doesn't own the domain unhuman coffee i mean it's

2301
01:25:25,921 --> 01:25:30,801
still going to look for unhuman coffee if i wanted to say no go to this specific string but i need a

2302
01:25:30,801 --> 01:25:37,102
human speakable human readable oh i think it's just like on today he owns unhuman.coffee right

2303
01:25:37,102 --> 01:25:44,741
that's like a well-known universal canonical name the only place yeah so i think it's that it's that

2304
01:25:44,741 --> 01:25:48,421
same thing. It's the only place to find it. But in that world, I'm like typing it or you're saying

2305
01:25:48,421 --> 01:25:53,542
I would just speak like go to Unhuman Coffee and it would search and say, is Unhuman Coffee a name

2306
01:25:53,542 --> 01:25:58,262
owned in this domain space? Yeah. And in a sense, I would just say, I want an Unhuman Coffee and

2307
01:25:58,262 --> 01:26:02,361
it'll be like, hey, we found this. Is this the thing you want me to buy? And I'd confirm, be like,

2308
01:26:02,381 --> 01:26:06,622
yeah, of course, that's the one that maps to the thing I said I want. Interesting. But I don't just

2309
01:26:06,622 --> 01:26:11,762
want coffee in general. Maybe like owning the name coffee could be valuable to Unhuman Coffee because

2310
01:26:11,762 --> 01:26:13,122
they could then also get a lot of organic.

2311
01:26:13,122 --> 01:26:15,741
And your point is if there's a lot of people that just jack the name

2312
01:26:15,741 --> 01:26:18,262
Unhuman Coffee, they're trying to be knockoffs.

2313
01:26:18,381 --> 01:26:20,602
It's going to be hard for the agent to distinguish which is the one you want.

2314
01:26:22,921 --> 01:26:24,082
I just think people

2315
01:26:24,082 --> 01:26:26,861
have the name Unhuman as a brand

2316
01:26:26,861 --> 01:26:29,841
in their mind, and then they can express their demand for that

2317
01:26:29,841 --> 01:26:32,701
brand through some, it's just a naming

2318
01:26:32,701 --> 01:26:33,561
mechanism, maps.

2319
01:26:34,381 --> 01:26:37,002
DNS already solves this, but your solution

2320
01:26:37,002 --> 01:26:40,021
solves some of the problems with DNS. Is that accurate?

2321
01:26:40,021 --> 01:26:43,622
Yeah, I think DNS has a lot of gatekeepers.

2322
01:26:44,461 --> 01:26:48,642
There's a whole stack of registrars and ICANN and Cloudflare.

2323
01:26:49,122 --> 01:26:52,981
There's about five or six people, entities that you're depending on.

2324
01:26:53,082 --> 01:26:56,461
And so I think that if we're going to be paying for things and running agents

2325
01:26:56,461 --> 01:26:57,841
and everything's going to be autonomous,

2326
01:26:58,461 --> 01:27:01,661
we should limit the need for those dependencies.

2327
01:27:01,801 --> 01:27:04,321
And we should just say a name and a cryptographic key,

2328
01:27:04,622 --> 01:27:06,841
and they pair them, and then you can accomplish that.

2329
01:27:07,042 --> 01:27:08,741
It doesn't matter if it's a person or a...

2330
01:27:08,741 --> 01:27:08,981
That makes sense.

2331
01:27:08,981 --> 01:27:13,841
This conversation also makes me wonder if we say human-readable names,

2332
01:27:14,262 --> 01:27:16,821
but should we also be thinking about human-speakable names?

2333
01:27:17,701 --> 01:27:20,542
I can't offhand think about how that actually changes things,

2334
01:27:20,661 --> 01:27:22,941
but because we're speaking so much more now,

2335
01:27:24,781 --> 01:27:25,901
or some of us are,

2336
01:27:27,401 --> 01:27:30,381
that maybe that changes that equation.

2337
01:27:30,622 --> 01:27:32,182
But just to make sure I understand this,

2338
01:27:32,301 --> 01:27:34,821
again, if I speak on human coffee today,

2339
01:27:34,961 --> 01:27:37,122
is the idea that the models will start to train

2340
01:27:37,122 --> 01:27:38,321
and this becomes sort of a standard?

2341
01:27:38,321 --> 01:27:39,841
and it's like we're going to give more weight

2342
01:27:39,841 --> 01:27:43,182
if the name you speak is tied into this global namespace

2343
01:27:43,182 --> 01:27:45,321
versus we're just going to scrape the whole web

2344
01:27:45,321 --> 01:27:49,781
and we'll determine based on who has products out there

2345
01:27:49,781 --> 01:27:51,042
which is the real unhuman coffee.

2346
01:27:52,161 --> 01:27:56,241
I think there could be some sort of a graph

2347
01:27:56,241 --> 01:28:00,762
of all of the coffees and which one is the real human.

2348
01:28:00,762 --> 01:28:03,201
I mean, that's effectively kind of one of the features

2349
01:28:03,201 --> 01:28:05,182
of what a search engine provides today, right?

2350
01:28:05,241 --> 01:28:07,021
You can kind of just say, I want unhuman coffee.

2351
01:28:07,021 --> 01:28:11,301
and it's like, oh, you want the getunhuman.coffee

2352
01:28:11,301 --> 01:28:13,961
or is it useunhuman or buyunhuman.coffee?

2353
01:28:13,961 --> 01:28:15,241
I guess that's what I'm asking.

2354
01:28:15,781 --> 01:28:18,161
Search engines do a lot of that resolution today, right?

2355
01:28:18,222 --> 01:28:20,441
To me, the equivalent of speaking to the agent

2356
01:28:20,441 --> 01:28:22,421
is kind of like using the search engine.

2357
01:28:22,642 --> 01:28:25,002
What's the equivalent of typing in unhuman.coffee

2358
01:28:25,002 --> 01:28:26,682
if I want to specifically flag?

2359
01:28:28,281 --> 01:28:31,321
I don't think there's a close equivalent.

2360
01:28:31,561 --> 01:28:32,542
I think it is.

2361
01:28:32,801 --> 01:28:35,481
I mean, with agents, a lot of things are turning into search.

2362
01:28:35,481 --> 01:28:38,161
you're like expressing an idea, but not something so specific.

2363
01:28:38,602 --> 01:28:40,661
If you type in a domain, you know what domain you're looking for.

2364
01:28:40,661 --> 01:28:40,961
Exactly.

2365
01:28:41,341 --> 01:28:44,881
If you go to a search engine, you just express an idea that you want.

2366
01:28:44,941 --> 01:28:48,461
And then hopefully you're trusting that the search engine and the algorithms and people

2367
01:28:48,461 --> 01:28:51,881
building that are giving you the thing that you're actually looking for.

2368
01:28:52,002 --> 01:28:55,201
And they generally are because they want you to keep coming back.

2369
01:28:55,341 --> 01:28:56,061
So you need to build trust.

2370
01:28:56,182 --> 01:29:00,602
But I guess what I'm getting at is like, if this domain space, like it almost needs to

2371
01:29:00,602 --> 01:29:04,361
become a standard for, I mean, or maybe it can emerge naturally.

2372
01:29:04,361 --> 01:29:08,222
because I guess what I'm kind of getting at is like the large language models already kind of have

2373
01:29:08,222 --> 01:29:14,321
a bias for this is the real inhuman coffee versus these are all scams at what point like how do you

2374
01:29:14,321 --> 01:29:19,722
see that transition to oh we're going to check the like the global bitcoin ledger to see like first

2375
01:29:19,722 --> 01:29:25,421
and foremost this is the one we're going to give extra weight to yeah I mean it depends a lot on

2376
01:29:25,421 --> 01:29:31,361
I guess how the information retrieval ecosystem evolves like are you speaking I mean news of the

2377
01:29:31,361 --> 01:29:35,241
week, I think Apple just said that they're going to open Siri and there might be some

2378
01:29:35,241 --> 01:29:39,461
sort of an app store like thing to serve Siri. So who's running it?

2379
01:29:39,461 --> 01:29:43,061
Is it OpenAI? Is it Gemini? Is it some Apple local

2380
01:29:43,061 --> 01:29:46,941
open source model, which seems like a credible thing with Google's recent breakthrough

2381
01:29:46,941 --> 01:29:51,122
on the non-quantized models that are now

2382
01:29:51,122 --> 01:29:55,201
compressible to three bits or something. So I think

2383
01:29:55,201 --> 01:29:59,341
it's hard to predict what that future

2384
01:29:59,341 --> 01:30:01,542
information retrieval process is going to look like,

2385
01:30:01,542 --> 01:30:03,642
I think it's just going to undergo a massive amount

2386
01:30:03,642 --> 01:30:05,661
of change right now. I think it's not hard

2387
01:30:05,661 --> 01:30:07,082
to predict that humans will

2388
01:30:07,082 --> 01:30:09,441
want things and that we'll

2389
01:30:09,441 --> 01:30:11,082
express those things through language.

2390
01:30:11,781 --> 01:30:13,421
And so can we map language to

2391
01:30:13,421 --> 01:30:14,941
cryptographic keys? That's

2392
01:30:14,941 --> 01:30:17,741
the long and short of it. And then the details of exactly

2393
01:30:17,741 --> 01:30:19,102
how the routing works.

2394
01:30:19,301 --> 01:30:21,361
And do that with as few

2395
01:30:21,361 --> 01:30:22,801
middlemen as possible.

2396
01:30:23,381 --> 01:30:24,241
Ideally not.

2397
01:30:26,241 --> 01:30:27,801
It's more of a commons at that point.

2398
01:30:27,801 --> 01:30:28,201
Yes.

2399
01:30:28,602 --> 01:30:29,061
Very cool.

2400
01:30:29,201 --> 01:30:29,561
I love it.

2401
01:30:29,642 --> 01:30:31,222
I think we can get there now.

2402
01:30:31,321 --> 01:30:32,281
I think we actually can do it.

2403
01:30:33,021 --> 01:30:33,502
This is awesome.

2404
01:30:33,661 --> 01:30:34,682
We have all the pieces for it.

2405
01:30:34,762 --> 01:30:35,341
Spiral Project.

2406
01:30:35,421 --> 01:30:35,741
Let's go.

2407
01:30:36,701 --> 01:30:37,061
I just want,

2408
01:30:37,102 --> 01:30:37,502
I just want,

2409
01:30:37,921 --> 01:30:39,061
I want a few of my

2410
01:30:39,061 --> 01:30:39,741
Send me your resume.

2411
01:30:39,921 --> 01:30:40,722
Savvy friends.

2412
01:30:43,241 --> 01:30:44,722
Get that JD ready, Steve.

2413
01:30:44,801 --> 01:30:45,222
Let's go.

2414
01:30:45,561 --> 01:30:46,961
I just want a few of my savvy friends.

2415
01:30:46,981 --> 01:30:47,762
Proper cover letter.

2416
01:30:47,881 --> 01:30:48,301
Yeah, exactly.

2417
01:30:48,502 --> 01:30:48,622
That's it.

2418
01:30:48,881 --> 01:30:50,241
No, I want you to pick it apart

2419
01:30:50,241 --> 01:30:52,182
and tell me what you don't like about it.

2420
01:30:52,381 --> 01:30:52,521
Right?

2421
01:30:52,622 --> 01:30:54,241
Tell me where there are gaps or problems.

2422
01:30:54,481 --> 01:30:55,682
That would be helpful.

2423
01:30:55,801 --> 01:30:56,861
We're all ready to start speculating.

2424
01:30:57,281 --> 01:30:57,602
Awesome.

2425
01:30:57,801 --> 01:30:59,201
Well, great show, guys.

2426
01:30:59,441 --> 01:30:59,941
Oh, it's done.

2427
01:31:00,021 --> 01:31:00,122
Great.

2428
01:31:00,222 --> 01:31:00,421
Damn.

2429
01:31:00,701 --> 01:31:01,002
All right.

2430
01:31:01,142 --> 01:31:01,741
We hit it.

2431
01:31:02,622 --> 01:31:03,701
We have more to cover.

2432
01:31:04,142 --> 01:31:05,361
More to cover next week.

2433
01:31:05,502 --> 01:31:05,741
Always.

2434
01:31:06,042 --> 01:31:06,801
We'll be back.

2435
01:31:07,561 --> 01:31:08,801
Too much time spent on I with it.