1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,900 All right, welcome to another episode of the Presidio Bitcoin Jam. 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:05,200 Hey guys, what's up? 3 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:08,260 I am sorry to say it's our last episode. 4 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:09,700 It's the final show. 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:10,340 Final show. 6 00:00:10,540 --> 00:00:10,920 Almost. 7 00:00:11,220 --> 00:00:12,660 For multiple reasons. 8 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,280 For multiple reasons. 9 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,640 We originally thought because Bitcoin's dying and almost dead that it would be our final show. 10 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:19,120 Yeah. 11 00:00:19,660 --> 00:00:23,460 But then Max and I each almost died on the way to the show. 12 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:31,440 and if we've lost we've lost toshi i've lost max and we've lost steve what am i doing i'm sitting 13 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:38,560 here like narrating it's just dk and bitty are the only ones left unfortunately the suit that we 14 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:47,620 put the bitty suit just like yeah no i um yeah i mean push nature too hard swam too cold 15 00:00:47,620 --> 00:00:49,620 scary experience 16 00:00:49,620 --> 00:00:50,520 made it but 17 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:51,680 good reminder that 18 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:52,040 you know 19 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,200 the digital realm 20 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:53,840 I spend so much time 21 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:54,400 in the digital realm 22 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:54,960 going analog 23 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:55,580 you gotta be 24 00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:56,680 don't fuck with 25 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:57,100 mother nature 26 00:00:57,100 --> 00:00:57,800 yeah 27 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,800 glad you made it out 28 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:00,960 and you had your own 29 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,720 I biked to work 30 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:03,260 and 31 00:01:03,260 --> 00:01:04,700 laid my bike down 32 00:01:04,700 --> 00:01:05,100 but 33 00:01:05,100 --> 00:01:06,100 made it here 34 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:06,820 in one piece 35 00:01:06,820 --> 00:01:08,300 I was a little late 36 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:08,860 so I was pushing 37 00:01:08,860 --> 00:01:09,560 it extra hard 38 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:10,220 and 39 00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:10,800 bridges 40 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,560 wet wood bridges 41 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:13,600 laid my bike down 42 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:14,820 is kind of a gentle way 43 00:01:14,820 --> 00:01:16,000 is it destroyed 44 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,360 is your bike like 45 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,060 No, it's durable. 46 00:01:18,620 --> 00:01:19,560 It's my e-bike. 47 00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:20,380 It's my e-bike. 48 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:20,980 Oh, damn. 49 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,200 It's like a 75-pound bike. 50 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,420 It's basically like laying a motorcycle down. 51 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,580 Did you crash while I was electric, man? 52 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:28,880 Yeah. 53 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:30,080 It's both. 54 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:32,660 I'm pedaling, but with the motor. 55 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:35,400 Too much extreme sports. 56 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:36,560 Too many extreme sports. 57 00:01:36,660 --> 00:01:39,340 But we won't be here next week because it is Thanksgiving. 58 00:01:40,020 --> 00:01:40,760 Oh, that's right. 59 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:41,280 That's right. 60 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,840 So we'll be with this show, and then we'll be back in two weeks. 61 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:45,040 Yeah. 62 00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:46,120 So we're just kidding. 63 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:46,680 It'll probably be it. 64 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:47,500 It's not actually all over. 65 00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:48,940 It'll probably be a slow week next weekend. 66 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:49,560 It'll be slow. 67 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:49,860 Yeah. 68 00:01:49,860 --> 00:01:50,200 Thanksgiving. 69 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,600 Remember we used to, I think when we started this, are we a year in? 70 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:56,180 Yeah. 71 00:01:56,300 --> 00:01:57,360 It was roughly, that's right. 72 00:01:57,460 --> 00:01:58,200 About this time last year? 73 00:01:58,220 --> 00:02:00,200 It was November-ish, early December. 74 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,300 And we were going to start a gratitude practice. 75 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:03,640 That's right. 76 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:03,940 Remember? 77 00:02:03,940 --> 00:02:04,640 Pierre Rochard. 78 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,260 Pierre Rochard, we gave gratitude. 79 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:07,200 We're still grateful for Pierre. 80 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,900 We're still grateful for Pierre, but we have not kept up on our gratitude practice. 81 00:02:11,020 --> 00:02:15,900 But it's Thanksgiving, so maybe we can think about what we're thankful for and get back 82 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:18,260 either right now, real time if you have one 83 00:02:18,260 --> 00:02:20,540 or we can get back in December with our gratitude. 84 00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:22,160 Let's put you on the spot. What are you grateful for? 85 00:02:22,620 --> 00:02:23,460 I'm grateful for you, Max. 86 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,700 That's very sweet. And Steve, I'm grateful for you. 87 00:02:25,940 --> 00:02:27,020 I'm grateful for both of you guys too. 88 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,260 I'm grateful for Satoshi. 89 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:30,820 Somewhere in the hat. 90 00:02:31,060 --> 00:02:31,580 Sporting the hat. 91 00:02:33,660 --> 00:02:35,920 I believe this is episode 49. 92 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:37,960 So, not bad. 93 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:40,200 Pretty, like for one year, right? 94 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,220 We only missed a few weeks. 95 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:43,160 I didn't think about that. Wow. 96 00:02:44,180 --> 00:02:45,520 We still got a couple weeks left. 97 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:48,500 I think we started 98 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:50,500 the last week of November 99 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:53,000 so in one calendar year 100 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,240 we did 49 to 50 101 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,740 episode 50 we'll have to celebrate 102 00:02:56,740 --> 00:02:59,160 pop champagne or something 103 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:00,220 on the show 104 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:02,280 we'll have to wear a Peter Schiff hat 105 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,660 last week was super exciting 106 00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:08,780 with all the Bitcoin payment stuff 107 00:03:08,780 --> 00:03:09,440 and Square etc 108 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,780 Spiral, we talked last week 109 00:03:12,780 --> 00:03:14,500 Spiral launched some cool stuff last week 110 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:16,760 Wave 2 came out this morning, 111 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:18,160 so I wanted to talk a little bit about that. 112 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:19,660 My team's rocking. 113 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:20,940 Tell us, yeah. 114 00:03:21,260 --> 00:03:22,600 We're the no-scroll apps, guys. 115 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Well, it's... 116 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:24,940 Finish. 117 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:26,260 Pay the log. 118 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:28,700 I think, as I mentioned last week, 119 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,240 I've gone from sort of bear to bull 120 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,460 in terms of, like, coffee payments 121 00:03:33,460 --> 00:03:35,840 and retail payments in the U.S. using Bitcoin. 122 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,200 But I still think it's going to be a huge grind. 123 00:03:39,140 --> 00:03:41,180 It's not like instantly consumers are going to go 124 00:03:41,180 --> 00:03:42,700 making payments. 125 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:45,640 at US retailers. 126 00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:48,240 So we need the Bitcoin army to get out there 127 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,040 and help us out and do it in a sustainable way. 128 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,240 So we launched a marketing kit last week for folks. 129 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,000 Today, we announced several different ways 130 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,420 people can get involved. 131 00:04:00,820 --> 00:04:02,120 And often people ask me, 132 00:04:02,340 --> 00:04:05,140 they're like, hey, I'm not a protocol dev. 133 00:04:05,220 --> 00:04:06,540 How can I contribute to Bitcoin? 134 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:08,920 Well, I think this is a great way for anyone to contribute. 135 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:09,940 If you're passionate about Bitcoin, 136 00:04:10,180 --> 00:04:12,260 that's all you need is passion for Bitcoin 137 00:04:12,260 --> 00:04:13,320 and you can help in this way. 138 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,420 So one, get out there, go to your local merchants, 139 00:04:16,620 --> 00:04:18,960 use the marketing kit Spirals created to help you out. 140 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,140 They're just extra tools. 141 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:21,920 That's one way you can do it. 142 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,320 Two, if you want to be like a local champion 143 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:25,620 for your city or region, 144 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,660 you can now, one thing we announced today 145 00:04:28,660 --> 00:04:30,900 is you can apply and we'll send you a box 146 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:35,760 of itty bitty plushies and other supplies. 147 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:36,880 Your mileage may vary. 148 00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:40,540 For you, well, the enthusiasm has been very high 149 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:41,900 for the plushie. 150 00:04:42,260 --> 00:04:46,140 In fact, Joe from Pink Owl told me that kids are stealing it from. 151 00:04:46,340 --> 00:04:46,500 Seriously? 152 00:04:46,740 --> 00:04:46,940 Yeah. 153 00:04:46,940 --> 00:04:49,940 Because he puts it in front of his register and they keep taking it. 154 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:50,540 That's good. 155 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:50,980 All right. 156 00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:56,400 But we started with five physical hubs in the U.S. 157 00:04:56,420 --> 00:04:57,340 We talked about that last week. 158 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,340 Then Kansas City came to call in. 159 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:00,800 So we supply Kansas City. 160 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,060 And already today we've had Rhode Island requests. 161 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,160 Seattle asked Austin Bach. 162 00:05:06,220 --> 00:05:06,720 Is he listening? 163 00:05:06,860 --> 00:05:07,500 He usually listens. 164 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:07,900 Yeah. 165 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:08,980 He applied as well. 166 00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:12,860 So we'll get you going, Austin. 167 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:16,120 Austin Valk, not Austin the City. 168 00:05:16,300 --> 00:05:17,600 We already got Austin the City covered. 169 00:05:17,860 --> 00:05:19,140 How does someone apply if they want to? 170 00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:22,000 We'll check the Spiral Twitter account. 171 00:05:22,180 --> 00:05:25,880 We got the details there, but you fill out a very simple form. 172 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:27,500 So there's that. 173 00:05:27,740 --> 00:05:30,500 Also, we announced contributions to this community. 174 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,000 This is not just a Spiral thing. 175 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:32,780 It's public good. 176 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,460 So if you want to contribute, we provided some resources today to contribute. 177 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:37,740 Another thing we did. 178 00:05:37,740 --> 00:05:41,680 So you have something, is it monetary contribution? 179 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:47,380 No, there's a GitHub for the software or marketing techs. 180 00:05:47,940 --> 00:05:50,800 Yeah, I guess there's software for the website, 181 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,680 but it's mainly more of a marketing thing. 182 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,180 So if you want to improve the one-pager, create a new one-pager, 183 00:05:56,820 --> 00:05:58,120 maybe translate or something. 184 00:05:58,180 --> 00:05:58,820 Translate, yeah. 185 00:05:59,020 --> 00:05:59,500 Oh, that's cool. 186 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,340 And so that was one of the explicit call-outs was translations. 187 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,620 And then we're also working on, 188 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:12,060 So we have the marketing kit for Bitcoiners, but we're also working on a marketing kit for merchants. 189 00:06:12,940 --> 00:06:21,880 Because once they turn it on, then they realize, oh, other than a few rabid Bitcoiners, normal customers are not even aware to pay in Bitcoin. 190 00:06:22,420 --> 00:06:27,440 So we're creating a marketing kit for merchants to help them create awareness and provide incentives. 191 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:34,880 So people who want to contribute to that, we don't have all the ideas and knowledge, so we'd love to have other Bitcoiners contribute. 192 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:49,220 And then another thing we've noticed, all three of us have seen several people here at Presidia Bitcoin and throughout the U.S. and even world are really enjoying going out and trying to convert merchants. 193 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:55,340 And they have stories to tell and they have really amazing stories and exciting stories and wins. 194 00:06:55,940 --> 00:07:02,940 And they also have some losses and lessons like what didn't go well, what didn't land well, where can we improve? 195 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:06,520 so I was getting those in like DMs 196 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,560 and like these private messaging groups and stuff 197 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,000 and I'm like I love reading all these 198 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,280 but like we want to share that with more people 199 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,380 so Spiral created a public Discord 200 00:07:15,380 --> 00:07:19,640 for Bitcoin advocates that are going around doing this 201 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:20,600 to share their stories 202 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,360 and then for others to learn from them 203 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,620 and then bless you 204 00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:27,580 and we're going to point like Square 205 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:30,020 and all the other point of sale software solutions 206 00:07:30,020 --> 00:07:32,640 and space to that Discord as well 207 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,220 because like, hey, you can learn a lot about your own products 208 00:07:35,220 --> 00:07:37,600 and what it's like to onboard as a merchant. 209 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,360 So lots of good stuff from Spiral today. 210 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,740 I also just want to throw in my whatever two stats story. 211 00:07:44,940 --> 00:07:49,240 I did last Saturday, I tried to onboard merchants 212 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,780 at my farmer's market or one of my farmer's markets. 213 00:07:52,380 --> 00:07:55,300 And I think I spoke to five or six merchants. 214 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,640 And my biggest takeaway is I need, I'm going to go back, 215 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,580 maybe this weekend, maybe next week, I don't know, 216 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:06,240 but in bringing the orange flyer, the lead behind. 217 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,860 The lead behind is critical because I think for a lot of people, 218 00:08:10,140 --> 00:08:12,900 let's say it was five, of those that I talked to, 219 00:08:13,460 --> 00:08:16,500 one guy I have a very strong relationship with 220 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:18,240 or we've been chatting for over a year, 221 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:23,800 he's also, let's say, I don't know, open-minded, anarcho-curious. 222 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,120 And so when I was just like, hey, man, 223 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,900 this is a way to give the middle finger to the banks 224 00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:35,100 and you know the um oh so you're not leading like i thought we were talking about leading with the 225 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:39,600 three percent but i did with everyone and i used that with him as well but this guy and i have like 226 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,680 we've chatted for over a year like i know his context yeah i know his vibe and so you know for 227 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:50,140 him being able to say like you know you you would like to break away from the corporate overlords 228 00:08:50,140 --> 00:08:53,780 who may not have your best interest at heart that resonated a lot and of course three percent savings 229 00:08:53,780 --> 00:08:58,480 is also great so he's the one guy that said he would go and read more and learn about it and i 230 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,220 think he might actually so it'll be i'll be interesting interested to see if he followed 231 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:07,360 up on it or not but i would say that was like my my highest likelihood of the other ones i talked to 232 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,380 you know a couple people were curious about three percent savings but everyone kind of gave me a 233 00:09:10,380 --> 00:09:14,780 weird look um there was another woman who like definitely seemed like they thought you were 234 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:18,600 yeah like some kind of weird scammer and like you know like what is this bitcoin thing like 235 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:26,580 um one guy clearly was excited about the savings and curious but um you know just seemed busy so i 236 00:09:26,580 --> 00:09:29,980 I think what I would love to do is I'm going to go back, give them the leave behind. 237 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,720 I probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing the plushy thing for them, for these particular 238 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:34,000 guys. 239 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,440 Maybe the chocolate guy, because he's pretty cool. 240 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:40,460 But to leave behind, to show them some way that it's a real community. 241 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:43,640 I know one thing that you've been debating is how much to tie in. 242 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,580 This is from Square versus not Square. 243 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,400 In my experience, I think having something from this company you know and trust also 244 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:55,020 is a backer of this thing, would I feel like lend additional credibility? 245 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:57,820 but everyone's going to have their own experience with that. 246 00:09:59,060 --> 00:10:00,000 Yeah, I'm excited to see. 247 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:01,500 Oh, the other thing that I think we should definitely do, 248 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:03,500 maybe it's in the Discord or as people are sharing this, 249 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:05,540 is I think I asked for this last week, 250 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,180 but I would love to see videos of like, 251 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,000 show me step-by-step how do I turn it on for a merchant? 252 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:11,580 Because I don't know. 253 00:10:11,860 --> 00:10:13,440 I've never really played with a Square Terminal. 254 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:15,180 I think we have one here, which I should play with, 255 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,820 but I could see the chocolate guy being like, 256 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:19,720 cool, do it for me now, and I don't know how to. 257 00:10:19,860 --> 00:10:21,840 So I think that's something if we get those videos 258 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,000 of just like, here's a two-minute step, step, step, 259 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:27,140 that'll help at least people like me. 260 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,080 Is that easy enough to do without, 261 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,100 because I think you were mentioning 262 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,100 there's some KYB or some private material 263 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:35,160 that might get shared, 264 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:36,700 some sensitive information. 265 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,700 Is that possible to make a video like that? 266 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:39,880 It's just like an ad hoc? 267 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:41,020 Well, I don't know about it. 268 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,060 If there is, 269 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:43,900 I don't know if there's personal information in there, 270 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,120 but then someone could go 271 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,820 that has some basic editing skills 272 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:49,220 and just take that out. 273 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,260 There's a comment from Deanna 274 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:55,260 saying that GitHub can be overwhelming. 275 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,900 And I just say that for people 276 00:10:57,900 --> 00:10:59,540 that haven't used GitHub before, 277 00:11:00,940 --> 00:11:02,280 yeah, I think that's understandable. 278 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,700 But it can be really easy. 279 00:11:04,980 --> 00:11:08,600 Like if you're going to do complex Git commands, 280 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:09,960 that is definitely complicated. 281 00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:13,660 But if all you want to do is express an idea, 282 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:15,240 it's actually quite simple. 283 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:16,840 You can just create a new issue. 284 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:18,580 So you just go to the issues page, 285 00:11:18,580 --> 00:11:20,580 click a button, create new issue, 286 00:11:21,060 --> 00:11:22,120 and then you type some text. 287 00:11:22,260 --> 00:11:26,000 So, I mean, it's literally no harder than an email. 288 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,600 Now, if you want to actually contribute and open a PR, 289 00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:34,180 there's a little bit more things you need to learn. 290 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,220 But since this is content, 291 00:11:36,780 --> 00:11:38,520 you're not having to write code or anything. 292 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,360 So it shouldn't be that hard to learn 293 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,780 how to create a PR for like a text edition. 294 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,800 If we sort of take somebody who's not familiar with GitHub, 295 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:48,880 let's maybe talk through some of what, 296 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,840 because you're very familiar with GitHub, 297 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,260 So you're sort of talking about it as an expert user. 298 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,360 But my understanding is this is a unique URL that effectively hosts something like a blog. 299 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:01,640 The GitHub entry is mostly the text of the thing. 300 00:12:02,060 --> 00:12:13,680 And when you say create an issue, an issue hangs out in a public area around that text for other people who are looking at that text to be able to see and review and comment on, right? 301 00:12:13,980 --> 00:12:14,460 Yeah. 302 00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:20,460 I mean, an issue is like, hey, I found a problem or I could improve the wording. 303 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:26,440 or here's an entirely new one-pager that I created. 304 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:28,320 Sorry, sorry. 305 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:29,600 So an issue could be like, 306 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,620 here's an entirely new one-pager I would like to see created. 307 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,600 The focus on the 3% is great, 308 00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:39,080 but I want to create a one-pager that focuses on no chargebacks 309 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,480 or I want a heavily orange pill, 310 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:44,800 go hard on Bitcoin. 311 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,460 Whatever it is you want to create. 312 00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:48,560 And then you could create an issue which says, 313 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:50,840 here's what I imagine it looking like. 314 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:52,260 And you might create that 315 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:53,500 because you're going to follow up 316 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:55,300 with a quote PR pull request, 317 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:56,640 which creates it, 318 00:12:56,780 --> 00:12:58,980 or you're hoping someone else in the community does. 319 00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:00,320 So two thoughts. 320 00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:01,940 One, Matt is in the chat. 321 00:13:02,060 --> 00:13:02,800 What's up, Matt? 322 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:03,540 And he's saying, 323 00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:05,160 our design template is in Canva, 324 00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:06,000 no GitHub required. 325 00:13:06,340 --> 00:13:08,740 I would maybe just like push all of you guys, 326 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,220 particularly Steve and Matt, 327 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:12,340 y'all are so technically literate 328 00:13:12,340 --> 00:13:14,000 that like I would just, 329 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:15,420 one thing that I'm learning 330 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:17,300 over and over and over again 331 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,940 as I'm seeing things diffuse technology 332 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:23,680 is like literally assume that like we're working with people 333 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,060 who when you say GitHub, that just terrifies it. 334 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,700 So one solution that I would like to see 335 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:30,480 and maybe someone that is technically literate 336 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,240 that wants to help, 337 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,600 this would be a great initiative for someone to launch, 338 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:34,620 just do a Google Doc. 339 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,280 Everyone knows Google Docs. 340 00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:38,140 And then if they want to take that Google Doc 341 00:13:38,140 --> 00:13:40,280 and move it over to the GitHub, 342 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,360 someone who's more comfortable with that, 343 00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:43,340 that would be a great service. 344 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,980 But my guess is you'll see an order of magnitude 345 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:48,020 at least more participation with a Google Doc. 346 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,840 But let's agree to a point, 347 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:52,580 but let me be clear. 348 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:55,080 So no one is suggesting 349 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,820 that merchants start using GitHub. 350 00:13:57,820 --> 00:14:01,540 And even the Bitcoin army that we're suggesting 351 00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:03,600 goes out and tries to convert merchants. 352 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:05,680 No one has to use GitHub. 353 00:14:05,820 --> 00:14:07,120 The only people that has to use GitHub 354 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,560 is the small set of people 355 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:11,200 who want to contribute to the website 356 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,040 and add webpages. 357 00:14:12,180 --> 00:14:13,560 It'll be a relatively small group. 358 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:16,300 I do agree with the point 359 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:17,560 even for that set of people 360 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,920 using Google Doc 361 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,700 to start formulating ideas 362 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:24,380 but the reason why 363 00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:25,900 GitHub is important is because 364 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:28,300 we want a public 365 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:30,180 community for open source 366 00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:32,560 where people can view what is being 367 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,580 proposed, can review 368 00:14:34,580 --> 00:14:36,460 it, give feedback, because ultimately 369 00:14:36,460 --> 00:14:38,260 it'll need to get merged 370 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:39,760 and so 371 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,140 if Deanna 372 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:44,060 wants to create a new one-pager, 373 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,120 she absolutely should 374 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,720 feel compelled to do that. 375 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:50,240 But it needs to go through a public 376 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:51,780 review process before getting 377 00:14:51,780 --> 00:14:54,140 merged. So what I'm saying is I think 378 00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:56,240 we can do both because Deanna's comment here 379 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,320 even says, even when you say or could be confusing, 380 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,420 I only know it's pull requests. I've been hoping 381 00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:02,260 I need to get my new contacts. 382 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,220 I've been hanging out around still, 383 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,160 LOL. My point is 384 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,220 I still think it's at least one order back to 385 00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:10,080 more people in the army that are going to be 386 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,260 scared of GitHub. And this is an opportunity 387 00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:14,080 for someone that, you know, there could be like 388 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,060 a decentralized version of this where someone does their own 389 00:15:16,060 --> 00:15:17,840 like, Deanna, you could just do a Google Doc, 390 00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:19,820 publish it, and then I'm sure 391 00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:21,900 someone like Matthew saying no need for an idea. 392 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:24,060 Someone that's comfortable with both could go and 393 00:15:24,060 --> 00:15:26,040 like cull and 394 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,940 like kind of aggregate the best ideas. 395 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,040 But I'm just guessing it's at least one, 396 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,780 maybe even two orders of magnitude more people 397 00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:33,940 that will do it if it's just like 398 00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:35,400 Google. 399 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:37,400 Just my two sides. 400 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,060 Okay, but then how will they get the public review process? 401 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,780 Well, I'm saying you could still move that. 402 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:42,840 I think you could have both, right? 403 00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:43,700 Who will move it, though? 404 00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:45,880 I guess my advice to people is like, 405 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:46,420 Matt, I don't know. 406 00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:47,440 Well, that's it. 407 00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:50,120 So, I mean, I think if you want to contribute 408 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,480 by reviewing stuff or adding things, 409 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,680 you got to get comfortable with GitHub. 410 00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:56,580 I don't think it's that. 411 00:15:57,020 --> 00:15:58,160 If you're in that boat 412 00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,520 that you actually want to contribute that way, 413 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,160 it's not that difficult to use GitHub, 414 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:03,660 especially for text. 415 00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:04,720 Maybe. 416 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,320 I would just say, like, one thing 417 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:07,480 I just keep learning over and over, 418 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,020 the last thing that hits me in that is like, 419 00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:13,600 like the bar for anyone to do anything 420 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,340 has to be so much lower than I thought. 421 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:17,860 So it's a fair point, 422 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,820 but I think there's an opportunity for someone to onboard, 423 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,040 like at least I would guess an order of magnitude more contributors 424 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:25,500 if the bar is zero. 425 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:28,220 Okay, but also I'm going to keep listening 426 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:33,080 because we don't want like 10,000 people contributing to GitHub. 427 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,460 That would be like overwhelming. 428 00:16:34,740 --> 00:16:35,120 Yeah, totally. 429 00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:38,200 We want 10,000 people globally in the Bitcoin army 430 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,960 going out to the cities and converting merchants, 431 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:42,280 that's where we want 10,000 people. 432 00:16:42,420 --> 00:16:44,000 Another thing, like a healthy metric, 433 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,000 just having like, frankly, half a dozen people 434 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,660 to interview on GitHub is really all that's needed. 435 00:16:49,980 --> 00:16:50,940 We just don't want it to be like 436 00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:52,600 only a couple people from Spiral. 437 00:16:52,780 --> 00:16:54,040 Totally, and I guess what I would say 438 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,620 is maybe there's an opportunity for an agent 439 00:16:55,620 --> 00:16:57,040 or someone like a Matt 440 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,580 or someone that's like comfortable with both 441 00:16:58,580 --> 00:17:01,660 to go and like, I'm just saying 442 00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:03,260 there's probably a gem of an idea 443 00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:05,580 that will emerge in a Google Doc 444 00:17:05,580 --> 00:17:12,300 And someone who is committed and comfortable in both languages can then come and move those things over. 445 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,300 Is Mac saying this because he's never submitted a PR? 446 00:17:16,020 --> 00:17:18,480 I actually have, believe it or not. 447 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:22,700 I took Justin Moon's Biddle Bootcamp back in the day. 448 00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:25,840 So I have, in fact, built Bitcoin from scratch in Python. 449 00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:27,240 I just love the trolling, though. 450 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:28,520 It's a good trolling. 451 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,060 But it is true. 452 00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:31,280 You do have a GitHub account? 453 00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:31,760 Absolutely. 454 00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:32,060 Okay. 455 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:32,500 Yeah. 456 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:34,420 Check me out, baby. 457 00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:36,680 Cypher better. It's been a minute. 458 00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:39,000 But I will say 459 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,940 that one technology lesson 460 00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:42,900 I just keep getting whacked in the head over and over again 461 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:45,180 is like, and we'll talk more about this with defaults. 462 00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:46,800 However simple you think something is, 463 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,780 it's got to be 10,000x more. 464 00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:50,280 Maybe what we really need is 465 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,260 a Google Docs-like interface 466 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:55,500 that is built on Noster 467 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:56,500 that actually 468 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,160 can use the commenting interface, but it's actually 469 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,580 simplifying 470 00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:03,180 the UX to make it feel more 471 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:04,160 accessible or normal. 472 00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:08,760 even easier way to do this was imagine if you have a bot that could just go through discord and 473 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,360 like super easy it's like hey if you have never touched github you don't want to just like push 474 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:17,600 yourself in github and then the bot could just go and like get the best ideas publish those and then 475 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,180 someone you know from spiral or wherever could just like oh like this is cool this is worth adding or 476 00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:30,640 not yeah so anyways cool um anything else on this topic or we i think it's awesome like i'm i'm also 477 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,040 So like Steve converted from skeptic to like pretty hopeful. 478 00:18:33,380 --> 00:18:33,480 Yeah. 479 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,780 Speaking of spiral and square and block, 480 00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:40,700 there was this, I think it was a big earnings call. 481 00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:42,680 Was it last week or a few days ago? 482 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,220 Well, the earnings call was a few weeks ago, 483 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,020 but this was a block investor day. 484 00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:46,780 Okay, investor day. 485 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:50,000 Which is, you know, earnings calls are obviously every quarter. 486 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,720 This was the first investor day in I think three and a half years or so. 487 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,200 The last one was during the COVID era, 488 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,560 which kind of sucked. 489 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,440 I mean, everything about that era sucked, right? 490 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:04,360 But I mean, it was remote, videotaped. 491 00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:07,960 I participated in that one. 492 00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:09,200 I felt super robotic. 493 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,600 It was the first time I've actually read 494 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,260 off a teleprompter when being recorded. 495 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,100 That sucks. 496 00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:17,560 Yeah, I didn't think I'd really... 497 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,060 It turned me into being very robotic. 498 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,260 I would need to practice more off a teleprompter. 499 00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:24,460 Basically, I don't like teleprompters. 500 00:19:24,620 --> 00:19:25,360 Who does? 501 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,520 I like to just shoot from the hip. 502 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:37,420 so anyway um but this one was you know in person is here in the bay area and um uh i i was here 503 00:19:37,420 --> 00:19:45,040 this week at like the hrf event and stuff but i didn't attend but by all by all um uh accounts 504 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:50,900 that i've heard it was a really you know really good day vibrant you know the great dynamic being 505 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:57,280 in person. I think there's a lot better story to tell today than three years ago about the 506 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:04,040 company. And I think the people, the executives that did tell the story had a lot of good 507 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:04,640 things to say. 508 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,160 Yeah. And the video is going to be out? I looked and I didn't see it up yet. 509 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,980 Yeah, I looked yesterday morning. It's the last time I looked and it still wasn't available. 510 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,280 I don't know the ETA. 511 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,540 Well, so I think the summary most of us read was by our good homie, Q-Baby. Shout out to 512 00:20:20,540 --> 00:20:22,540 cute baby. There's like 19 or so 513 00:20:22,540 --> 00:20:24,540 points. What did you guys think from 514 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:25,280 which self? 515 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,200 I only know his 516 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,540 Twitter account, but 517 00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:32,440 apparently he was there in person, 518 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,260 so he gave an in-person account. 519 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,100 So we can verify he is a human, though? 520 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:38,580 Well, I can't. 521 00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:40,380 He's a cute baby giraffe. 522 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,520 He's a toddler now. 523 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,480 It's suggesting 524 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,500 that he's a real person. 525 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:49,440 But I thought it was interesting. 526 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,340 Because there has been speculation. 527 00:20:51,620 --> 00:20:53,940 It's like Miles Suter or Jack. 528 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:56,880 I think it's actually an independent person from Block. 529 00:20:57,180 --> 00:20:57,740 Right, right. 530 00:20:57,820 --> 00:20:59,820 From Block, meaning somebody who works there. 531 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:03,140 No, independent from Block. 532 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,060 Like not a Block employee. 533 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,900 An actual, someone who's invested money in Block. 534 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:08,440 Yeah, yeah. 535 00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:11,440 Cares about the shareholder value. 536 00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:13,880 But it is interesting because he's like obsessed with Block. 537 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,080 And I've been following this dude for a while. 538 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:17,080 He's got some good, really good ideas, good alpha. 539 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,080 But whoever it is, they're... 540 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:27,700 Yeah, his analysis and commentary is generally quite bullish and optimistic, which is consistent with investing in the company. 541 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:35,140 He seems to really get what we're doing overall, but including Bitcoin. 542 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:45,340 And I think maybe one of the things you wanted to bring up is a lot of other investors, at least the way Qbaby reported at the investor day, 543 00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:47,620 that when Bitcoin was brought up, 544 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,220 there was less of an appreciation for it. 545 00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:51,400 Everybody's kind of rolling their eyes. 546 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,160 Like, you know, Bitcoin again? 547 00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:53,520 Yeah. 548 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:54,880 This is crazy. 549 00:21:55,780 --> 00:21:56,820 This is 2025. 550 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:57,920 What is going on? 551 00:21:58,540 --> 00:22:00,180 But less of an appreciation for, 552 00:22:00,340 --> 00:22:02,740 well, I mean, I would guess such investors 553 00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:04,240 would definitely roll their eyes 554 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,220 at what we're talking about 555 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:07,600 with like Bitcoin payments to our retail. 556 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,740 Which that specific thing about Bitcoin, 557 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,360 even most Bitcoiners 558 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:14,840 would maybe roll their eyes at that. 559 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:28,100 Even I was saying two months ago, I kind of rolled my eyes at an American buying a coffee with Bitcoin because to me that was the last use case that I could imagine being converted. 560 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:30,880 As I've talked about in the show, my mind's changed on that. 561 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:44,360 But overall, it still surprises me that overall, a company doing great things around Bitcoin, it not resonating with a lot of the investors, it's kind of surprising. 562 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:49,680 And as an investor, your job is to find things that the market doesn't yet believe. 563 00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:53,240 If the whole market believes and knows a thing, it's kind of too late. 564 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,100 It's already priced in. 565 00:22:54,220 --> 00:22:58,280 So you have to be, like as an investor, your job is to find opportunity where nobody else 566 00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,120 is looking or noticing. 567 00:22:59,380 --> 00:23:02,360 I mean, you're talking about the platonic ideal of an investor, right? 568 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,440 Sadly, in a broken market with broken money, it feels like more and more investors are 569 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:07,380 just playing it safe. 570 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:11,040 Like, look, I mean, people spend more time thinking about what the Fed is going to do 571 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,360 than actually trying to find a gem. 572 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:18,660 So I wish what you were saying was true, but I mean, Cute Baby seems to be one of the real investors out there. So shout out that guy. 573 00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:36,080 So my point, though, and I think this is what Steve is raising because we talked about this a little bit yesterday, is I think, you know, we come at this from like Bitcoin holders who care about the principles of self-sovereignty and self-custody and, you know, scarcity. 574 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:38,260 And there's a lot of those kinds of things. 575 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,780 And those don't resonate with a merchant when you're pitching it to a merchant. 576 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:55,778 But we kind of discovered through the work that Spiral done that 3 save 3 is the message It not down with the state It not self It save 3 Every merchant probably perks up at that 577 00:23:56,018 --> 00:23:56,738 For sure. Who wouldn't? 578 00:23:57,378 --> 00:23:59,438 And so my question is, 579 00:23:59,538 --> 00:24:01,138 why is there not similar messaging 580 00:24:01,138 --> 00:24:05,698 to help explain to a candidate investor in Square 581 00:24:05,698 --> 00:24:10,318 kind of like disregard the Bitcoin-ness of it? 582 00:24:10,378 --> 00:24:11,258 Like, that's not the story. 583 00:24:11,258 --> 00:24:18,558 The story is make, you know, these there's this monopoly of, you know, the visa controls duopoly or duopoly. 584 00:24:19,198 --> 00:24:27,418 And you, you know, Bitcoin enables you to not be subject to the behest of that monopoly. 585 00:24:27,718 --> 00:24:28,598 Well, can we have real talk? 586 00:24:28,738 --> 00:24:34,938 I mean, to me, the big question I have and, you know, Steve, you can shut me up and kick me off the chair at any point if I need to. 587 00:24:35,018 --> 00:24:37,358 But like to me, like it's very obvious. 588 00:24:37,358 --> 00:24:39,798 It's like just disrupted visa with us. 589 00:24:39,798 --> 00:24:42,238 like Bitcoin, 3% fees. 590 00:24:43,058 --> 00:24:45,398 I mean, who's not going to use that? 591 00:24:46,538 --> 00:24:48,278 And so to me, as an investor, 592 00:24:48,398 --> 00:24:49,818 if I'm looking and saying, wait a second, 593 00:24:50,238 --> 00:24:51,098 so in the old world, 594 00:24:51,178 --> 00:24:53,518 I had to use one of the two players in the duopoly, 595 00:24:53,658 --> 00:24:55,538 Viser Massacre, they're charging 3% fees 596 00:24:55,538 --> 00:24:57,118 because they have a duopoly. 597 00:24:57,698 --> 00:24:59,018 And then someone else is coming and saying, 598 00:24:59,258 --> 00:25:00,178 we're not going to charge you fees. 599 00:25:00,258 --> 00:25:01,398 And obviously you can't do that forever, 600 00:25:01,578 --> 00:25:03,118 like block us to make money at some point, 601 00:25:03,398 --> 00:25:05,338 whatever, 1% fees, you still radically undercut them. 602 00:25:05,958 --> 00:25:07,278 I'm looking at this and I'm like, 603 00:25:07,278 --> 00:25:09,858 if I have two brain cells as an investor, 604 00:25:10,918 --> 00:25:13,298 I'm like, well, Visa's one of the most profitable companies on the planet, 605 00:25:13,838 --> 00:25:15,918 and these guys just undercut them. 606 00:25:17,378 --> 00:25:18,438 Seems like a big deal. 607 00:25:19,798 --> 00:25:23,038 So I haven't watched Investor Day yet because I wasn't there 608 00:25:23,038 --> 00:25:24,878 and the video's not available yet. 609 00:25:25,218 --> 00:25:31,758 But I'd have to think that cutting out the fees was part of the messaging. 610 00:25:32,198 --> 00:25:34,418 So I guess we'll find out when we watch the video. 611 00:25:35,258 --> 00:25:37,178 Cute Baby said they said a couple of times 612 00:25:37,178 --> 00:25:39,198 this is a paradigm shift or something like that. 613 00:25:39,478 --> 00:25:40,398 So that was the, 614 00:25:41,118 --> 00:25:43,478 I think that was in relation to dollars on lightning, 615 00:25:43,758 --> 00:25:47,018 which is very much related to this. 616 00:25:47,118 --> 00:25:50,398 But again, maybe it didn't click yet. 617 00:25:50,518 --> 00:25:51,198 I don't know. 618 00:25:51,358 --> 00:25:52,258 But I mean, 619 00:25:52,578 --> 00:25:55,338 the cutting out the middleman's having 3% fees, 620 00:25:55,538 --> 00:25:57,938 that doesn't take a genius to click. 621 00:25:58,078 --> 00:25:58,658 That's what I'm saying. 622 00:25:58,658 --> 00:26:00,098 Dollars on lightning and things like that, 623 00:26:00,158 --> 00:26:01,198 that's a little bit more. 624 00:26:02,018 --> 00:26:04,018 You might need to hear it two, three times 625 00:26:04,018 --> 00:26:06,658 or frame different ways to really 626 00:26:06,658 --> 00:26:07,658 rock that. 627 00:26:09,258 --> 00:26:10,258 And then let's see, someone, oh, 628 00:26:11,158 --> 00:26:12,958 Ram asked, how do employees 629 00:26:12,958 --> 00:26:13,958 at Blockfield out Bitcoin? 630 00:26:14,898 --> 00:26:16,718 Yeah, I mean, I can comment on that. 631 00:26:16,838 --> 00:26:18,598 I mean, I joined the company over six years ago, 632 00:26:18,818 --> 00:26:20,838 and when I joined, there were 633 00:26:20,838 --> 00:26:22,858 like 30 people, there's like 634 00:26:22,858 --> 00:26:24,858 a Slack channel called Bitcoin, right? There's probably one 635 00:26:24,858 --> 00:26:26,838 like that at every company. And there's 636 00:26:26,838 --> 00:26:28,818 like 30 people in that when I joined. 637 00:26:29,058 --> 00:26:30,738 So, I mean, when I joined, the company had already 638 00:26:30,738 --> 00:26:32,658 launched buying and selling Bitcoin 639 00:26:32,658 --> 00:26:34,738 on Cash App, and I mean, the company was 640 00:26:34,738 --> 00:26:36,198 already like very much 641 00:26:36,198 --> 00:26:38,658 known for, at least within the Bitcoin community, 642 00:26:38,778 --> 00:26:40,278 known for being into Bitcoin, right? 643 00:26:40,398 --> 00:26:42,218 And Jack was already very public, 644 00:26:42,438 --> 00:26:44,478 and the reason I even joined is because they created Spiral. 645 00:26:44,778 --> 00:26:46,078 So they're all the... 646 00:26:46,078 --> 00:26:46,678 Square crypto. 647 00:26:47,198 --> 00:26:47,918 Oh, yeah, square crypto. 648 00:26:47,918 --> 00:26:48,798 Square crypto at the time. 649 00:26:48,938 --> 00:26:49,478 Square Solana. 650 00:26:51,498 --> 00:26:54,658 So, I mean, there are already all these public data points 651 00:26:54,658 --> 00:26:55,938 on like, oh, blocks about Bitcoin. 652 00:26:56,018 --> 00:26:58,218 But I joined, there are like 30 people in this like, 653 00:26:58,398 --> 00:27:00,298 you know, many thousand person. 654 00:27:00,798 --> 00:27:02,598 I think there are 4,000 employees at the time. 655 00:27:02,598 --> 00:27:10,338 um and so that that slack channel has grown to well over it's over last i checked 1300 people 656 00:27:10,338 --> 00:27:17,418 is probably way more now um so just the level of engagement interest um another data point um 657 00:27:17,418 --> 00:27:23,118 like back when we worked on that paper together four years ago energy and environment and stuff 658 00:27:23,118 --> 00:27:30,238 like that um there are definitely there was a small but loud um uh negative group on bitcoin 659 00:27:30,238 --> 00:27:31,438 within the company. 660 00:27:31,958 --> 00:27:32,838 And I haven't heard, 661 00:27:33,098 --> 00:27:34,758 there's even like a Slack channel called, 662 00:27:35,318 --> 00:27:36,458 I actually forget what it's called now, 663 00:27:36,558 --> 00:27:37,418 but it's the haters. 664 00:27:37,778 --> 00:27:39,298 Like the people who hate Bitcoin, 665 00:27:39,718 --> 00:27:40,898 they have their own Slack channel. 666 00:27:40,978 --> 00:27:42,058 Why do they work at Block? 667 00:27:42,558 --> 00:27:42,698 Yeah. 668 00:27:42,978 --> 00:27:43,518 Well, I mean, 669 00:27:43,558 --> 00:27:46,498 some employees have been public on Twitter too, 670 00:27:47,218 --> 00:27:50,458 like with very aggressive tweets that are negative. 671 00:27:50,658 --> 00:27:52,278 I mean, that would be like me working in JP Morgan 672 00:27:52,278 --> 00:27:53,418 and be like down with banking. 673 00:27:53,558 --> 00:27:54,278 Like I hate banking. 674 00:27:54,798 --> 00:27:56,218 Well, but I mean, 675 00:27:56,278 --> 00:27:58,938 maybe what Ram is getting at is that 676 00:27:58,938 --> 00:28:01,938 if you take almost any big tech company, 677 00:28:02,278 --> 00:28:05,618 the majority are not Bitcoiners, 678 00:28:05,738 --> 00:28:06,478 not into Bitcoin. 679 00:28:07,158 --> 00:28:09,538 I would break it down roughly as like, 680 00:28:09,598 --> 00:28:09,878 you know, 681 00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:12,578 well, it used to be 1%, 682 00:28:12,578 --> 00:28:14,498 now maybe 5% are Bitcoiners, 683 00:28:14,638 --> 00:28:18,078 and then like 5% are haters, 684 00:28:18,538 --> 00:28:21,578 like just like emotional and truly hate it. 685 00:28:22,078 --> 00:28:22,998 And go public. 686 00:28:22,998 --> 00:28:25,458 It's hashtag Bitcoin dash sucks. 687 00:28:25,598 --> 00:28:25,958 Is that real? 688 00:28:26,378 --> 00:28:26,478 Yeah. 689 00:28:26,998 --> 00:28:27,698 No mommies. 690 00:28:27,778 --> 00:28:28,218 It is real. 691 00:28:28,938 --> 00:28:31,378 But I don't think it's been active for quite a while. 692 00:28:31,778 --> 00:28:32,238 Oh, Lord. 693 00:28:32,378 --> 00:28:41,878 But and then so, I mean, it's sort of like 5% huge advocates, 5% haters, and then 90% sort of like don't care, busy with life or curious or something like that. 694 00:28:41,878 --> 00:28:43,778 And I think a similar. 695 00:28:44,378 --> 00:28:55,398 So joining Block back then, it was kind of a similar distribution, which I think might surprise outsiders because they're like, because from the outside, it's like, well, the CEO, the founder and CEO is an enormous advocate. 696 00:28:56,078 --> 00:28:57,298 But well, two things. 697 00:28:57,298 --> 00:29:04,238 One, just because a CEO is passionate about something doesn't mean thousands of employees are, that they're passionate about something. 698 00:29:04,778 --> 00:29:04,878 Right. 699 00:29:05,298 --> 00:29:11,958 And then also just the way, you know, Jack leads, I mean, he very much allows people to have their own view and perspective. 700 00:29:12,118 --> 00:29:16,018 And yeah, he's not going to fire you just because you don't like Bitcoin. 701 00:29:16,658 --> 00:29:19,438 I mean, but I guess my point is like, I would, I would expect it. 702 00:29:19,478 --> 00:29:21,838 And maybe I guess just the human nature of like, you already have a good job. 703 00:29:21,838 --> 00:29:25,318 you know what I'm doing, but like if my like founder and CEO came out and started being like, 704 00:29:25,558 --> 00:29:29,958 I am so pro-swana or whatever, I would just bounce. I mean, you literally did that. 705 00:29:32,958 --> 00:29:39,078 All right. Well, yeah, all right. The man walks the walk. But anyway, 706 00:29:39,278 --> 00:29:42,878 but the last point I'll say to answer the question about like block employees, 707 00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:49,778 there's definitely been a noticeable shift over time that the haters have either left or have 708 00:29:49,778 --> 00:29:56,978 been convinced otherwise or are just quiet now. I don't know. But I think the middle 90% 709 00:29:56,978 --> 00:30:02,098 employees have definitely shifted towards a better understanding and appreciation. And 710 00:30:02,098 --> 00:30:07,218 even if they might not identify as a Bitcoiner, they're much more supportive, is my sense. 711 00:30:07,678 --> 00:30:12,878 I know that at the Block by Block event in September when 10,000 employees all came to 712 00:30:12,878 --> 00:30:19,278 Oakland, there were some human rights activists that came for a panel and spoke how they used 713 00:30:19,278 --> 00:30:22,878 Bitcoin, similar to the HRF event that happened this past week. 714 00:30:23,598 --> 00:30:26,378 And that really impacted a lot of employees as well. 715 00:30:26,518 --> 00:30:30,838 Because you got to remember, people who don't work in Bitcoin and think about it all day 716 00:30:30,838 --> 00:30:39,218 long, like us and a lot of our audience, you primarily hear about Michael Saylor and people 717 00:30:39,218 --> 00:30:40,858 getting rich and scams. 718 00:30:40,858 --> 00:30:41,618 Scams and shit. 719 00:30:41,778 --> 00:30:43,438 That's most the news. 720 00:30:43,618 --> 00:30:46,118 So that is your impression of Bitcoin. 721 00:30:46,118 --> 00:30:56,058 How does that picture align with Strock's values of economic empowerment, people giving financial access to more people? 722 00:30:56,258 --> 00:30:57,938 It sounds like two different worlds. 723 00:30:58,438 --> 00:31:04,098 But then you hear these stories of the human rights activists who have actually used it for real good. 724 00:31:04,278 --> 00:31:05,938 That changes minds. 725 00:31:05,938 --> 00:31:17,178 And if we do see success with small businesses able to cut out the fees and thrive, obviously that will land well with block employees. 726 00:31:17,438 --> 00:31:23,478 But beyond block, like Silicon Valley and everywhere, because the little guy is being helped out. 727 00:31:23,698 --> 00:31:27,698 Are you suggesting every block employee is not Red the Creature from Jekyll Island yet? 728 00:31:29,958 --> 00:31:32,318 I'll have to add that to their reading. 729 00:31:32,318 --> 00:31:32,978 Just making sure. 730 00:31:33,318 --> 00:31:34,378 Okay, cool. 731 00:31:34,378 --> 00:31:37,478 yeah okay 732 00:31:37,478 --> 00:31:39,158 so 733 00:31:39,158 --> 00:31:41,678 this should we talk 734 00:31:41,678 --> 00:31:44,138 well I mean just one more point on that before we jump into whatever 735 00:31:44,138 --> 00:31:46,298 the next topic is like to your point I guess one thing 736 00:31:46,298 --> 00:31:46,918 that like 737 00:31:46,918 --> 00:31:50,258 has just been very eye opening to me in the 738 00:31:50,258 --> 00:31:52,058 last five plus years like getting into 739 00:31:52,058 --> 00:31:54,158 quote unquote investing professionally like 740 00:31:54,158 --> 00:31:54,738 is 741 00:31:54,738 --> 00:31:57,998 you know I came into this and really thought 742 00:31:57,998 --> 00:31:59,918 like kind of like you thought I was like oh like there's more like 743 00:31:59,918 --> 00:32:02,038 efficient market hypothesis like people are like 744 00:32:02,038 --> 00:32:03,998 truly intellectually curious they truly want to find 745 00:32:03,998 --> 00:32:08,478 truth. And that, I mean, I guess exists, you know, in a couple of corners, but it's just been 746 00:32:08,478 --> 00:32:13,358 shocking to me up and down the stack from early stage, especially like the bigger funds you get 747 00:32:13,358 --> 00:32:17,218 later stage. And I get it human nature. People just want their, you know, their fees and this 748 00:32:17,218 --> 00:32:22,838 and that. But like, it's been honestly like a little, I don't know if the word is disheartening. 749 00:32:22,898 --> 00:32:25,558 I mean, in one case, it's really encouraging because like, I used to look up to a lot of 750 00:32:25,558 --> 00:32:29,198 these funds and be like, oh man, like Sequoia does it. I know it's the best. It's like, no, 751 00:32:29,238 --> 00:32:33,118 I'm like, man, I'm not really sure these guys know what they're talking about at any stage of the, 752 00:32:33,118 --> 00:32:35,998 And there are very smart people and there are exceptions. 753 00:32:36,318 --> 00:32:36,918 But I don't know. 754 00:32:36,958 --> 00:32:39,538 It's been very eye-opening to me that like, you know, 755 00:32:39,598 --> 00:32:42,138 efficient market hypothesis is absolute bullshit. 756 00:32:42,938 --> 00:32:45,018 And just in general, like most investors, 757 00:32:45,138 --> 00:32:49,058 I just don't really take seriously based on the whole Bitcoin thing. 758 00:32:50,058 --> 00:32:53,118 One last point on the investors. 759 00:32:53,618 --> 00:32:54,598 Like investors, I don't know. 760 00:32:54,738 --> 00:32:57,418 Investors who maybe, you know, don't get Bitcoin 761 00:32:57,418 --> 00:33:04,758 or don't see how to incorporate it into valuing a company like Block. 762 00:33:05,618 --> 00:33:07,238 This is just very anecdotal evidence, 763 00:33:07,338 --> 00:33:09,898 but I've heard two or three instances already just in the past week 764 00:33:09,898 --> 00:33:13,778 of Bitcoin army going out to merchants saying, 765 00:33:13,878 --> 00:33:15,518 hey, you want to save 3%? 766 00:33:15,658 --> 00:33:16,378 Turn on Bitcoin. 767 00:33:16,478 --> 00:33:16,878 Sure do. 768 00:33:16,878 --> 00:33:22,178 And then the Square customer tells them, 769 00:33:22,378 --> 00:33:24,578 and this isn't even like a Square employee. 770 00:33:24,758 --> 00:33:26,218 This is just like a Bitcoiner. 771 00:33:26,218 --> 00:33:32,918 they tell them like we're we're about ready to switch to a competitor like toast whatever and 772 00:33:32,918 --> 00:33:38,578 then they learn about square accepting bitcoin and it actually retains them as a square customer 773 00:33:38,578 --> 00:33:45,658 really yes because the fees well saving i i don't know what combination of like saving fees versus 774 00:33:45,658 --> 00:33:53,178 like oh curiosity curiosity bitcoin or or or or even just like oh square still like alive and 775 00:33:53,178 --> 00:33:55,718 relevant, alive, doing new innovative things. 776 00:33:55,818 --> 00:34:00,978 Like it might be reframing the brand as like fresh and, 777 00:34:01,018 --> 00:34:04,338 and doing new exciting things, whatever. 778 00:34:04,598 --> 00:34:05,578 So I don't know the answer. 779 00:34:05,898 --> 00:34:08,658 It's only a few anecdotes, but it, I mean, 780 00:34:08,698 --> 00:34:12,178 given the short amount of time and only if you, you know, it, it might, 781 00:34:12,378 --> 00:34:16,058 it might be, it might actually become quite significant. 782 00:34:17,098 --> 00:34:20,478 So like even if the Bitcoin payments don't happen, 783 00:34:20,478 --> 00:34:22,538 if it just from a square perspective, 784 00:34:22,538 --> 00:34:29,198 if it like refreshes the brand totally customer's eyes yeah that alone is it's great business value 785 00:34:29,198 --> 00:34:32,798 well i don't think there's any question about that and even from the investor community i think you 786 00:34:32,798 --> 00:34:38,238 know like frankly a big question has always been like when jack is locked in he's a product goat 787 00:34:38,238 --> 00:34:42,278 up there with like a steve jobs question is you know is he locked in it's very clear he's locked 788 00:34:42,278 --> 00:34:46,898 in right now like you can't look at how quickly the company is shipping like literally when i saw 789 00:34:46,898 --> 00:34:50,978 i guess it was last week when like every day miles is i don't even know how much that was planned or 790 00:34:50,978 --> 00:34:52,658 just like, fuck it, let's just ship it this week. 791 00:34:52,978 --> 00:34:54,298 But like literally every day he was like, 792 00:34:54,338 --> 00:34:55,338 all right, first you can accept Bitcoin. 793 00:34:55,498 --> 00:34:57,638 Then you can do dollars to dollars using the Bitcoin network. 794 00:34:57,758 --> 00:34:58,518 Now there's no fees. 795 00:34:58,858 --> 00:35:01,898 I was really like, literally, is Elon up in here now doing this? 796 00:35:02,058 --> 00:35:02,558 And I don't know. 797 00:35:02,738 --> 00:35:03,598 I think a lot of investors, 798 00:35:03,838 --> 00:35:05,939 I'll tell you personally for the first time in a long time, 799 00:35:05,998 --> 00:35:07,959 I'm thinking, should I be owning Square Stock? 800 00:35:08,218 --> 00:35:11,178 Well, I'll tell you, Sequoia led the Series A. 801 00:35:12,118 --> 00:35:14,459 Well, I mean, to be fair, 802 00:35:15,198 --> 00:35:18,698 Roloff seems perhaps more locked in 803 00:35:18,698 --> 00:35:21,098 than some of the other Stripe crowd there, 804 00:35:21,158 --> 00:35:21,518 but whatever. 805 00:35:22,518 --> 00:35:24,318 That was also like 15 years ago. 806 00:35:24,798 --> 00:35:28,698 I do expect product velocity to continue 807 00:35:28,698 --> 00:35:33,098 and keep the momentum up. 808 00:35:33,098 --> 00:35:36,158 So anticipate, you know, 809 00:35:36,278 --> 00:35:43,018 because the Square team moved fast to get this out 810 00:35:43,018 --> 00:35:45,078 and they hit the deadline. 811 00:35:45,278 --> 00:35:45,459 Great. 812 00:35:45,678 --> 00:35:46,538 Usually when you do that, 813 00:35:46,538 --> 00:35:50,718 There's like a list of things that you know you wanted to get into that release and didn't. 814 00:35:50,818 --> 00:35:52,258 So they're going to power through that list. 815 00:35:52,878 --> 00:35:56,718 And there's been tons of great feedback received from real world usage. 816 00:35:56,718 --> 00:35:59,038 So there's tons of things to improve. 817 00:35:59,158 --> 00:36:00,998 And I think we're going to see over the coming weeks. 818 00:36:01,258 --> 00:36:01,678 No, I love it. 819 00:36:01,738 --> 00:36:07,478 And I'll tell you just even from my like with other investor conversations in the sauna, which I do from time to time, there is renewed interest. 820 00:36:07,578 --> 00:36:13,459 I will say to me, this feels like if you came out and told me that like Kawhi Leonard is healthy and back and ready to play a whole season. 821 00:36:14,078 --> 00:36:14,878 I'm backing it. 822 00:36:15,318 --> 00:36:16,098 That's what it feels like. 823 00:36:16,098 --> 00:36:17,598 So let's go. 824 00:36:17,998 --> 00:36:18,698 All right, Quantum. 825 00:36:19,158 --> 00:36:19,998 What's up? 826 00:36:22,118 --> 00:36:25,758 I think it's more about the price movement. 827 00:36:26,198 --> 00:36:27,419 What is Quantum? 828 00:36:27,778 --> 00:36:31,018 From my vantage point, there's nothing new about Quantum. 829 00:36:31,138 --> 00:36:35,158 We put on a huge summit here at Presidio Bitcoin in July. 830 00:36:35,558 --> 00:36:40,158 We brought together world experts in Quantum physics, 831 00:36:40,439 --> 00:36:42,198 in Bitcoin dealing with Quantum. 832 00:36:42,198 --> 00:36:46,598 and we went through like five different threads of topics. 833 00:36:46,858 --> 00:36:49,498 And to me, there's not a whole lot new since then. 834 00:36:49,598 --> 00:36:52,058 But other than like, I mean, 835 00:36:52,058 --> 00:36:54,919 the price of Bitcoin has dropped 35% or whatever 836 00:36:54,919 --> 00:36:57,978 and people are speculating why. 837 00:36:58,538 --> 00:37:00,138 Is it like early investors? 838 00:37:00,578 --> 00:37:02,858 Is it quantum risk? 839 00:37:03,038 --> 00:37:06,238 Is it the, I've heard theories about the October 10th. 840 00:37:06,419 --> 00:37:10,018 I think it was October 10th when like DeFi blew up or whatever. 841 00:37:10,018 --> 00:37:12,419 and a lot of the people playing. 842 00:37:13,638 --> 00:37:15,618 All the crypto stuff blew up. 843 00:37:15,738 --> 00:37:18,058 Remember, it dropped substantially one day. 844 00:37:19,718 --> 00:37:22,178 Billions were liquidated on a Friday night or something. 845 00:37:23,058 --> 00:37:24,538 I don't follow this stuff either, but anyway, 846 00:37:25,098 --> 00:37:29,218 one theory is that a lot of those players got overexposed 847 00:37:29,218 --> 00:37:32,138 and they're having to sell a lot of Bitcoin to stay afloat. 848 00:37:32,678 --> 00:37:34,558 So I think there's two different conversations here. 849 00:37:34,698 --> 00:37:36,738 One conversation is, why is the price down? 850 00:37:36,898 --> 00:37:38,298 And I do think that's a fair conversation. 851 00:37:38,298 --> 00:37:40,598 one possibility is it's quantum risk, 852 00:37:40,658 --> 00:37:41,738 which is why we're leading into that. 853 00:37:42,038 --> 00:37:43,098 Then it's also just this thing. 854 00:37:43,338 --> 00:37:44,178 So just so I understand, 855 00:37:44,298 --> 00:37:45,258 so you're basically saying, 856 00:37:45,498 --> 00:37:47,498 and I don't know a ton about the DeFi world anymore, 857 00:37:47,498 --> 00:37:49,838 but maybe one of these large liquidity providers 858 00:37:49,838 --> 00:37:52,378 or market makers had a bunch of exposure to shitcoins. 859 00:37:52,598 --> 00:37:53,558 The shitcoins blew up. 860 00:37:53,718 --> 00:37:54,558 They are holding Bitcoin. 861 00:37:55,058 --> 00:37:57,018 And so they're being forced to sell the Bitcoin 862 00:37:57,018 --> 00:37:59,398 so that they can cover their other positions. 863 00:37:59,778 --> 00:38:01,018 I think I saw someone shared a tweet, 864 00:38:01,158 --> 00:38:01,919 maybe it was one of you guys, 865 00:38:02,258 --> 00:38:04,919 about this profit dude that was kind of interesting. 866 00:38:05,078 --> 00:38:08,118 And he was basically saying that the way whoever it is- 867 00:38:08,298 --> 00:38:11,358 P-O-F-I-T or P-R-O-P-H-T? 868 00:38:12,018 --> 00:38:13,598 Profits over profits, if you know what I'm saying. 869 00:38:15,439 --> 00:38:16,378 Interpret that as you will. 870 00:38:17,298 --> 00:38:19,098 But basically, then it's like a... 871 00:38:19,098 --> 00:38:20,118 I still don't know the ratio. 872 00:38:20,258 --> 00:38:22,158 Is it profit over profit or profit over profit? 873 00:38:22,198 --> 00:38:22,898 It depends on the day. 874 00:38:23,258 --> 00:38:25,338 It depends on what price we're at. 875 00:38:29,338 --> 00:38:29,738 PH. 876 00:38:30,419 --> 00:38:31,358 Acidic, not base. 877 00:38:34,118 --> 00:38:35,598 Yeah, we got to have some freestyle. 878 00:38:35,598 --> 00:38:36,198 I like it. 879 00:38:36,198 --> 00:38:38,978 Just give me a little beat, you know. 880 00:38:39,578 --> 00:38:43,358 But which reminds me, we got to talk to Matthew about some Bitcoin stuff and music. 881 00:38:43,638 --> 00:38:47,638 But basically, I have no idea if this is true or not. 882 00:38:47,758 --> 00:38:49,898 I've done zero research other than read this tweet. 883 00:38:49,959 --> 00:39:06,178 But his argument was that it's a, like, every day there's like a sort of almost programmatic or algorithmic selling happening that's like not at all responsive to what you would expect in markets, which might suggest that someone's like underwater and they're trying to sell in such a way that it doesn't freak everything out at once, not dump it once. 884 00:39:06,198 --> 00:39:08,158 but at the same time, it's like very programmatic. 885 00:39:08,258 --> 00:39:09,818 I don't know if that's true or not, but maybe. 886 00:39:10,419 --> 00:39:13,318 I will say I have been chatting with some friends 887 00:39:13,318 --> 00:39:15,698 in the background and like the quantum stuff, 888 00:39:16,318 --> 00:39:18,598 it's certainly not helping that there's FUD 889 00:39:18,598 --> 00:39:20,338 about quantum happening at the same time. 890 00:39:20,358 --> 00:39:21,638 And I don't even know if FUD is the right word. 891 00:39:22,078 --> 00:39:23,718 I would say maybe two things have shifted 892 00:39:23,718 --> 00:39:27,238 my own personal concern maybe about quantum 893 00:39:27,238 --> 00:39:28,078 since the summit. 894 00:39:29,298 --> 00:39:32,578 One is, well, I listened to a good podcast 895 00:39:32,578 --> 00:39:34,419 with Preston Pysh and Charles Capriol 896 00:39:34,419 --> 00:39:36,618 and this is the energy money guy 897 00:39:36,618 --> 00:39:37,919 that I think is pretty sharp 898 00:39:37,919 --> 00:39:39,718 as is Preston 899 00:39:39,718 --> 00:39:42,518 and basically one thing that he said 900 00:39:42,518 --> 00:39:44,058 and I know you're less concerned about this 901 00:39:44,058 --> 00:39:45,218 but we can maybe discuss on air 902 00:39:45,218 --> 00:39:47,439 that I hadn't really considered is like 903 00:39:47,439 --> 00:39:49,838 you know the tricky thing with quantum is 904 00:39:49,838 --> 00:39:52,038 it's like the air bars are huge right 905 00:39:52,038 --> 00:39:54,678 so like he's saying on the short end two years 906 00:39:54,678 --> 00:39:56,258 I know the kind of like consensus 907 00:39:56,258 --> 00:39:58,198 that I remember from our summit was five years 908 00:39:58,198 --> 00:40:00,618 but whatever let's say it's two years on one end 909 00:40:00,618 --> 00:40:01,678 and never on the other end 910 00:40:01,678 --> 00:40:03,378 so that's like a pretty big range 911 00:40:03,378 --> 00:40:10,178 and you know if it were two years the point he was making is there's about a quarter of the coins 912 00:40:10,178 --> 00:40:16,738 that are still directly paid a pub uh a quarter of all utxos out there i guess that's what he was 913 00:40:16,738 --> 00:40:22,338 saying and his point was if you wanted to move from pub key directly to a new address type which 914 00:40:22,338 --> 00:40:29,858 is quantum resistant so we think or so the understanding is that i have the caveat by all 915 00:40:29,858 --> 00:40:32,959 the saying it's scary when you're not like in the quantum deeply you're like well i'm just kind of 916 00:40:32,959 --> 00:40:34,959 taking secondhand, you know, whatever for this. 917 00:40:35,439 --> 00:40:37,818 But his point was like, how many years would that take 918 00:40:37,818 --> 00:40:40,478 if all of those UTXOs wanted to move 919 00:40:40,478 --> 00:40:43,959 and you basically all hit the mempool at the same time? 920 00:40:44,178 --> 00:40:46,478 And his argument was, I think he said two-ish years 921 00:40:46,478 --> 00:40:48,098 or like 18 months, Preston pushed back 922 00:40:48,098 --> 00:40:49,338 and was like, actually, it could be many years. 923 00:40:50,178 --> 00:40:51,178 I know you're not concerned 924 00:40:51,178 --> 00:40:53,098 because it's not a lot of value in a lot of these UTXOs, 925 00:40:53,198 --> 00:40:56,378 but that was something I had not thought about. 926 00:40:57,939 --> 00:41:02,538 So I'm not concerned about that specific issue. 927 00:41:02,959 --> 00:41:04,178 I'll give a few reasons why. 928 00:41:05,919 --> 00:41:11,558 I mean, Bitcoin can move several hundred million transactions a year. 929 00:41:12,018 --> 00:41:14,258 And there's not that many UTXOs. 930 00:41:14,939 --> 00:41:17,278 But he was saying there's a quarter of all UTXOs out there, no? 931 00:41:17,818 --> 00:41:21,898 So, I mean, it would take months to move everything, not years. 932 00:41:22,998 --> 00:41:24,658 Okay, I have to go back and see what their path is. 933 00:41:24,658 --> 00:41:25,578 There's some discrepancy. 934 00:41:25,878 --> 00:41:26,598 So that's one point. 935 00:41:26,598 --> 00:41:41,838 But also, when people give timeframes of like two years or 10 or 15 or whatever timeframe, you also have to ask what's happening at that point in time. 936 00:41:41,898 --> 00:41:43,078 So in two years, what does that mean? 937 00:41:43,158 --> 00:41:49,738 Does that mean there's a cryptograph or a computer that can break a key? 938 00:41:50,818 --> 00:41:51,038 Okay. 939 00:41:51,738 --> 00:41:52,979 How much does it cost? 940 00:41:53,718 --> 00:41:54,598 How long does it take? 941 00:41:54,598 --> 00:41:56,138 You got to ask those questions, right? 942 00:41:56,138 --> 00:41:56,258 Sure. 943 00:41:56,258 --> 00:42:01,098 Because if it costs $10 million, so right now it's not even possible. 944 00:42:01,678 --> 00:42:03,578 Like there's no computer that exists that can do it, right? 945 00:42:03,798 --> 00:42:09,318 So some future milestone will be like, okay, now there's a computer that can do it, but it costs $10 million and takes 10 years. 946 00:42:09,578 --> 00:42:11,258 So it's still not that threatening. 947 00:42:11,919 --> 00:42:17,718 But it would be, that would be a huge advancement over today because today no computer even works to do that. 948 00:42:18,398 --> 00:42:22,959 Then, and then those, the cost and time will go down over time. 949 00:42:22,959 --> 00:42:24,578 but when we say two years 950 00:42:24,578 --> 00:42:26,398 what exactly is that? 951 00:42:26,919 --> 00:42:28,338 And I say that because most likely 952 00:42:28,338 --> 00:42:30,718 at some point there will be a really expensive 953 00:42:30,718 --> 00:42:33,658 slow computer that can do it 954 00:42:33,658 --> 00:42:36,878 but clearly if it costs $10 million 955 00:42:36,878 --> 00:42:38,678 to break a key 956 00:42:38,678 --> 00:42:40,738 you're not going to target a UTXO 957 00:42:40,738 --> 00:42:43,138 that's only worth a million dollars 958 00:42:43,138 --> 00:42:46,098 let alone $10 or whatever. 959 00:42:46,398 --> 00:42:48,459 So while there's a lot of UTXOs 960 00:42:48,459 --> 00:42:51,598 most have very small amounts of Bitcoin 961 00:42:51,598 --> 00:42:54,479 when we actually look at 962 00:42:54,479 --> 00:42:56,218 UTXOs that 963 00:42:56,218 --> 00:42:58,098 have their public key exposed 964 00:42:58,098 --> 00:42:59,378 like pay to pub key 965 00:42:59,378 --> 00:43:02,298 the vast majority have 50 966 00:43:02,298 --> 00:43:04,678 Bitcoin because they were mined early on 967 00:43:04,678 --> 00:43:06,578 and let's see 968 00:43:06,578 --> 00:43:07,798 what's 50 Bitcoin worth? 969 00:43:08,218 --> 00:43:09,479 Something like 5 million dollars 970 00:43:09,479 --> 00:43:11,218 used to be 971 00:43:11,218 --> 00:43:14,678 4 million dollars 972 00:43:14,678 --> 00:43:15,318 5 million dollars 973 00:43:15,318 --> 00:43:16,078 before quantum fun 974 00:43:16,078 --> 00:43:19,518 so if it costs 10 million dollars 975 00:43:19,518 --> 00:43:21,058 to break a key 976 00:43:21,058 --> 00:43:23,278 you're not going to do that for one that's only worth 977 00:43:23,278 --> 00:43:24,378 four or five million dollars. 978 00:43:26,459 --> 00:43:27,158 And then again, 979 00:43:27,198 --> 00:43:28,098 you have to look at how much time. 980 00:43:30,038 --> 00:43:30,638 And then, 981 00:43:30,959 --> 00:43:33,078 I think there's only a handful of 982 00:43:33,078 --> 00:43:34,658 exposed UTXOs that 983 00:43:34,658 --> 00:43:36,358 have a lot more than 50 Bitcoin. 984 00:43:36,919 --> 00:43:38,818 So, they can all be... They can move quickly. 985 00:43:38,878 --> 00:43:40,298 They can move quickly, but 986 00:43:40,298 --> 00:43:41,858 the far more 987 00:43:41,858 --> 00:43:44,498 concerning thing... Is the lost ones. 988 00:43:44,798 --> 00:43:46,878 Yeah, the ones that can't move because 989 00:43:46,878 --> 00:43:49,078 the keys have been lost. So, it doesn't matter 990 00:43:49,078 --> 00:43:50,898 how long it takes to move, they're not going to move 991 00:43:50,898 --> 00:43:52,939 because no one is around. 992 00:43:53,118 --> 00:43:54,878 That still doesn't concern me as much personally, 993 00:43:54,939 --> 00:43:56,498 although maybe the market's going to freak out. 994 00:43:56,658 --> 00:43:59,078 But one thing I would love to see, 995 00:43:59,318 --> 00:44:03,578 and my guess is for the investor community, 996 00:44:03,638 --> 00:44:04,338 if I had to guess, 997 00:44:04,378 --> 00:44:07,479 if I still feel some uneasiness or queasiness about this, 998 00:44:07,878 --> 00:44:10,578 my guess is more of the traditional investors 999 00:44:10,578 --> 00:44:12,358 feel that on steroids. 1000 00:44:13,138 --> 00:44:14,558 And so, yes, we did the Quantum Summit, 1001 00:44:14,618 --> 00:44:15,038 which is awesome. 1002 00:44:15,038 --> 00:44:16,638 I should go back and rewatch the videos. 1003 00:44:16,738 --> 00:44:17,798 I should everyone that's concerned. 1004 00:44:18,278 --> 00:44:19,318 One thing I would love to see, 1005 00:44:19,378 --> 00:44:20,518 and maybe this is worth funding 1006 00:44:20,518 --> 00:44:26,158 for, you know, I don't know, people we know who are interested in making sure the big money is 1007 00:44:26,158 --> 00:44:32,419 not freaking out. I would love to see a like an in-depth research report. And I saw Nick Carter 1008 00:44:32,419 --> 00:44:37,558 also posting about this in a way that he seems concerned. And like, I actually, you know, take 1009 00:44:37,558 --> 00:44:42,439 Nick's concerns pretty seriously. He's been pretty, pretty right on the money about a lot of things, 1010 00:44:42,558 --> 00:44:47,358 Bitcoin, energy, AI over the years. The fact that he has any concern at all to me is like, okay, 1011 00:44:47,358 --> 00:44:49,419 I need to go back and do my own research on this, 1012 00:44:49,498 --> 00:44:51,218 which I will, but very few people are going to do this. 1013 00:44:51,718 --> 00:44:54,118 I would love to see sort of a Nick style paper. 1014 00:44:54,238 --> 00:44:55,459 And maybe this, Nick, if you're listening, 1015 00:44:55,518 --> 00:44:57,118 this could be great for you or someone else 1016 00:44:57,118 --> 00:44:59,638 that just goes through and is like, 1017 00:45:00,538 --> 00:45:03,898 really has like expert commentary cited 1018 00:45:03,898 --> 00:45:05,498 or maybe an expert writes this from like, 1019 00:45:05,818 --> 00:45:06,738 here's what Google is saying. 1020 00:45:06,818 --> 00:45:07,878 Here's what PsyQuantum is saying. 1021 00:45:07,979 --> 00:45:08,979 Here's what Microsoft is saying. 1022 00:45:09,018 --> 00:45:11,979 The people from those companies really breaks it down, 1023 00:45:12,058 --> 00:45:14,538 explains like I'm five to your point of like, 1024 00:45:14,898 --> 00:45:16,778 here are the error bars of what we would reach. 1025 00:45:17,078 --> 00:45:18,419 Here's how long we think it would take. 1026 00:45:18,518 --> 00:45:19,939 Here's what the economic costs are. 1027 00:45:20,398 --> 00:45:22,698 And then they look at, for each of those scenarios, 1028 00:45:22,778 --> 00:45:24,479 they kind of do some scenario planning of like, 1029 00:45:24,878 --> 00:45:26,798 if it's $10 million in two years, 1030 00:45:26,858 --> 00:45:29,618 if it's $10 million and takes whatever, 12 months to run, 1031 00:45:30,098 --> 00:45:31,158 here's the coins that are at risk. 1032 00:45:31,278 --> 00:45:33,218 Here's the total amount of value that is 1033 00:45:33,218 --> 00:45:34,558 and here's how long it would take them to move. 1034 00:45:34,919 --> 00:45:39,439 If it's in two years at a million dollars and a week, 1035 00:45:39,698 --> 00:45:40,598 here's what that would take. 1036 00:45:40,598 --> 00:45:43,258 I think what's scary is just like, 1037 00:45:43,338 --> 00:45:46,078 for something so foreign to so many people, myself included, 1038 00:45:46,778 --> 00:45:51,518 I don't know, man. I'm hearing all these scenarios that are out there. And I know at this point, 1039 00:45:51,578 --> 00:45:58,298 even after the summit, I don't feel equipped to truly evaluate what those timelines and what 1040 00:45:58,298 --> 00:46:04,898 those economic thresholds look like right now. Sounds like we need your anti-energy FUD paper. 1041 00:46:04,979 --> 00:46:07,718 We need someone like that. Yeah. It's probably not going to be me this time. 1042 00:46:07,798 --> 00:46:12,718 Is he in the room with us? I got a lot on my plate. Maybe. I don't know if I, but someone 1043 00:46:12,718 --> 00:46:13,919 that is like, 1044 00:46:14,038 --> 00:46:14,758 who wants to go like 1045 00:46:14,758 --> 00:46:15,979 autistically deep on this 1046 00:46:15,979 --> 00:46:17,358 and then explain it like we're five, 1047 00:46:17,838 --> 00:46:18,459 I would love that. 1048 00:46:18,919 --> 00:46:21,318 But another takeaway for me 1049 00:46:21,318 --> 00:46:22,758 from the summit we did in July 1050 00:46:22,758 --> 00:46:25,058 is that while there are some 1051 00:46:25,058 --> 00:46:27,518 real challenging problems 1052 00:46:27,518 --> 00:46:30,038 if a quantum computer is developed 1053 00:46:30,038 --> 00:46:32,118 that can crack ECDSA, 1054 00:46:33,818 --> 00:46:36,518 like we can respond. 1055 00:46:36,518 --> 00:46:38,818 Meaning there is cryptography 1056 00:46:38,818 --> 00:46:39,878 that is quantum resistant 1057 00:46:39,878 --> 00:46:41,939 that Bitcoin can adopt. 1058 00:46:41,939 --> 00:46:43,698 In fact, there's several options. 1059 00:46:43,959 --> 00:46:45,758 So one of the challenges now is which one to pick. 1060 00:46:46,058 --> 00:46:47,538 And does it have drawbacks? 1061 00:46:47,658 --> 00:46:48,618 Yes, it's less efficient. 1062 00:46:48,919 --> 00:46:53,498 But from a pure investor perspective, 1063 00:46:53,898 --> 00:46:55,098 digital gold narrative, 1064 00:46:55,858 --> 00:46:57,558 it doesn't really matter 1065 00:46:57,558 --> 00:47:01,378 if you can only cram one-tenth of the transactions 1066 00:47:01,378 --> 00:47:02,718 in a block than you could before. 1067 00:47:03,758 --> 00:47:05,838 I mean, there's a valid argument 1068 00:47:05,838 --> 00:47:06,979 to reduce the block size 1069 00:47:06,979 --> 00:47:10,678 so that there's a healthier fee market. 1070 00:47:10,678 --> 00:47:16,878 So it has a negative impact on scaling and for other use cases. 1071 00:47:17,518 --> 00:47:31,959 But if we're truly in this dire situation where Bitcoin literally is going to die or save it for the digital gold narrative and then longer term figure out the scaling, obviously you're going to pick the latter. 1072 00:47:32,298 --> 00:47:46,457 And there already plenty of options to choose from And if we in a situation where we have actually reached a point where a computer can crack a key for million 1073 00:47:47,057 --> 00:47:51,577 obviously we'll have a sense of urgency to upgrade and get it done. 1074 00:47:51,657 --> 00:47:52,517 It'll be easy to get consensus. 1075 00:47:52,517 --> 00:47:53,897 And it'll be easy to get consensus. 1076 00:47:54,337 --> 00:47:54,937 Well, you say that. 1077 00:47:55,057 --> 00:47:55,677 Then the other... 1078 00:47:56,317 --> 00:47:57,517 I hope you're right. 1079 00:47:57,517 --> 00:48:00,517 Then there's the topic of, you know, do we burn... 1080 00:48:00,517 --> 00:48:04,057 the coins that we think can't move 1081 00:48:04,057 --> 00:48:05,677 because we don't know whether they can. 1082 00:48:05,937 --> 00:48:08,617 So if we're truly in some panic situation, 1083 00:48:08,797 --> 00:48:09,777 emergency mode, 1084 00:48:10,517 --> 00:48:12,177 probably set a window of time. 1085 00:48:12,397 --> 00:48:14,857 If your coins don't move in six months or whatever, 1086 00:48:15,517 --> 00:48:18,477 they're going to get frozen. 1087 00:48:19,437 --> 00:48:20,437 And again... 1088 00:48:20,437 --> 00:48:21,557 So I strongly disagree with that. 1089 00:48:21,817 --> 00:48:22,237 Strongly. 1090 00:48:22,417 --> 00:48:25,377 So I think all of these are really good points 1091 00:48:25,377 --> 00:48:26,157 you're making. 1092 00:48:26,717 --> 00:48:28,737 I think someone needs to write the definitive paper 1093 00:48:28,737 --> 00:48:29,317 on this and explain it. 1094 00:48:29,317 --> 00:48:30,577 What do you disagree with, though? 1095 00:48:30,697 --> 00:48:31,677 That we should free some coins. 1096 00:48:31,797 --> 00:48:34,517 I am very strongly in the free market camp. 1097 00:48:34,597 --> 00:48:35,737 When they get hacked, that's the bounty. 1098 00:48:36,677 --> 00:48:37,657 The hacker takes them. 1099 00:48:37,897 --> 00:48:42,097 I do agree that that's the most controversial decision, 1100 00:48:42,477 --> 00:48:44,417 and there will be a split in the community. 1101 00:48:44,577 --> 00:48:45,957 So I think Bitcoin will split, 1102 00:48:45,957 --> 00:48:47,477 and then the free market will win, 1103 00:48:47,697 --> 00:48:51,097 and your coin will go to zero, and mine will go higher. 1104 00:48:51,097 --> 00:48:55,357 Well, I'm not that OG, bro. 1105 00:48:55,357 --> 00:49:00,137 I wish, but I think what needs to be laid out 1106 00:49:00,137 --> 00:49:03,317 as whoever works on this anti-energy, 1107 00:49:03,457 --> 00:49:04,917 anti-quantum FUD paper is like, 1108 00:49:05,017 --> 00:49:06,177 yeah, lay out all those options 1109 00:49:06,177 --> 00:49:07,437 and explain the trade-offs of like, 1110 00:49:07,477 --> 00:49:08,877 yes, we have post-quantum photography, 1111 00:49:09,017 --> 00:49:10,437 but it's fat, which is what you were saying, 1112 00:49:10,497 --> 00:49:12,217 which means signature size is thicker 1113 00:49:12,217 --> 00:49:14,617 with thicker signature size, less scaling. 1114 00:49:14,757 --> 00:49:15,857 What does that do to Bitcoin? 1115 00:49:16,237 --> 00:49:18,037 But I think what a lot of people are concerned about, 1116 00:49:18,117 --> 00:49:19,637 what I'm kind of concerned about is like, 1117 00:49:20,057 --> 00:49:22,397 the longer the Bitcoin community goes, 1118 00:49:22,897 --> 00:49:25,097 like this whole ordinals thing or whatever it is, 1119 00:49:25,097 --> 00:49:27,097 the knots 1120 00:49:27,097 --> 00:49:29,157 thing. The knots is so ridiculous in my 1121 00:49:29,157 --> 00:49:31,037 mind. And the fact, I mean, I think 1122 00:49:31,037 --> 00:49:32,977 it's probably just a psyop to get people distracted from 1123 00:49:32,977 --> 00:49:35,057 actual issues like this. And 1124 00:49:35,057 --> 00:49:37,197 like, if we're waste, if 1125 00:49:37,197 --> 00:49:39,177 the core community, the people 1126 00:49:39,177 --> 00:49:40,957 that are actually making these decisions are getting 1127 00:49:40,957 --> 00:49:42,437 bogged down with something so silly, 1128 00:49:42,977 --> 00:49:45,097 what is it going to be like when we actually have a hair on fire 1129 00:49:45,097 --> 00:49:46,017 problem? That's my concern. 1130 00:49:46,797 --> 00:49:49,117 Well, okay. But most 1131 00:49:49,117 --> 00:49:51,077 Bitcoin developers would say that the quantum 1132 00:49:51,077 --> 00:49:52,897 thing is exactly the same thing. 1133 00:49:52,897 --> 00:49:54,637 So that doesn't feel like that at all to me. 1134 00:49:54,637 --> 00:49:55,417 It does. 1135 00:49:56,337 --> 00:49:57,937 That's why we had a summit here. 1136 00:49:58,617 --> 00:50:00,577 I attended the whole summit, and I'm not convinced. 1137 00:50:00,577 --> 00:50:02,257 I filled my quota this year of quantum. 1138 00:50:02,557 --> 00:50:04,437 We had the summit this summer. 1139 00:50:04,437 --> 00:50:05,617 Now you're like me with the nuts crap. 1140 00:50:06,077 --> 00:50:07,497 We had the summit. 1141 00:50:07,677 --> 00:50:08,877 I'm really glad we did it. 1142 00:50:08,997 --> 00:50:11,497 I'm glad I put some energy into it, and other people did it as well. 1143 00:50:12,497 --> 00:50:14,597 And I learned a lot, and I came away. 1144 00:50:14,717 --> 00:50:17,257 I feel like I don't think it's an imminent threat. 1145 00:50:17,917 --> 00:50:22,577 And if it develops into an imminent threat in two years or five years or whatever, 1146 00:50:22,577 --> 00:50:26,117 I sort of have my mind, okay, I know exactly what will need to be done. 1147 00:50:26,297 --> 00:50:31,217 And while there's some thorny thing, issues, 1148 00:50:31,337 --> 00:50:35,117 like it's a lot easier to develop consensus when a key has been cracked. 1149 00:50:35,377 --> 00:50:36,477 So what do you think would happen? 1150 00:50:36,577 --> 00:50:39,877 So I hear you and like, and yet, even though I was there, 1151 00:50:39,997 --> 00:50:41,997 I don't share the same degree of confidence. 1152 00:50:42,057 --> 00:50:44,177 I would like to, I want to get there, which is why I'm asking for someone. 1153 00:50:44,297 --> 00:50:44,897 What's your concern? 1154 00:50:45,037 --> 00:50:45,717 All of the above. 1155 00:50:45,797 --> 00:50:47,137 Like, I don't understand. 1156 00:50:47,137 --> 00:50:50,897 We know of quantum resistant cryptography. 1157 00:50:51,277 --> 00:50:52,077 It's less efficient. 1158 00:50:52,417 --> 00:50:52,517 Right. 1159 00:50:52,577 --> 00:50:58,097 But if we're in this extreme existential threat scenario, then who cares? 1160 00:50:58,517 --> 00:51:06,457 Max, do you believe that we don't have functional quantum computers today that could crack Bitcoin? 1161 00:51:07,197 --> 00:51:07,937 I'm sorry, say that again. 1162 00:51:07,937 --> 00:51:09,377 Today, we don't have the quantum. 1163 00:51:10,257 --> 00:51:11,177 Do you believe that's true? 1164 00:51:11,297 --> 00:51:12,557 I don't even know that. 1165 00:51:13,357 --> 00:51:13,437 Okay. 1166 00:51:13,577 --> 00:51:13,977 Probably. 1167 00:51:14,237 --> 00:51:14,477 Probably. 1168 00:51:15,357 --> 00:51:17,097 No, I mean, probably, right? 1169 00:51:17,157 --> 00:51:18,157 It's like just fun. 1170 00:51:19,037 --> 00:51:19,877 Okay, I'm not saying it's better. 1171 00:51:19,877 --> 00:51:23,177 What I'm saying is the fact that I have these questions, 1172 00:51:23,377 --> 00:51:25,877 like this could be answered in a definitive white paper. 1173 00:51:26,037 --> 00:51:27,017 No one has published that yet. 1174 00:51:27,097 --> 00:51:27,837 I would like to see this. 1175 00:51:27,937 --> 00:51:32,077 Now, to your point, let's take all the different scenario planning, 1176 00:51:32,317 --> 00:51:33,417 you know, whatever ahead. 1177 00:51:33,497 --> 00:51:35,677 And I do think you're underrating how much of the concern 1178 00:51:35,677 --> 00:51:36,877 this is going to be for investors. 1179 00:51:37,317 --> 00:51:38,457 I never said that. 1180 00:51:38,677 --> 00:51:39,657 I agree it's a concern. 1181 00:51:39,957 --> 00:51:41,897 It's just cheaper Bitcoin for us right now. 1182 00:51:42,977 --> 00:51:43,737 I hope you're right. 1183 00:51:43,857 --> 00:51:47,797 So my question is, I think the thing you're probably the expert at 1184 00:51:47,797 --> 00:51:49,497 that you would be able to say almost better than anyone is, 1185 00:51:49,497 --> 00:51:51,097 not the quantum stuff. 1186 00:51:51,217 --> 00:51:51,897 Someone needs to write that. 1187 00:51:52,117 --> 00:51:53,737 But a key gets hacked. 1188 00:51:55,637 --> 00:51:56,337 What happened? 1189 00:51:56,717 --> 00:51:58,337 And you say it would happen quickly. 1190 00:51:58,737 --> 00:51:59,157 Like how, 1191 00:51:59,777 --> 00:52:01,837 if you had a sort of scenario plan for that, 1192 00:52:02,077 --> 00:52:03,437 what do you think the community does 1193 00:52:03,437 --> 00:52:04,437 to get a software together? 1194 00:52:04,597 --> 00:52:05,817 Well, the first thing is like, 1195 00:52:05,997 --> 00:52:08,877 even how do you validate that it was hacked? 1196 00:52:08,877 --> 00:52:09,317 Great question. 1197 00:52:09,357 --> 00:52:10,197 How was it hacked? 1198 00:52:10,277 --> 00:52:10,477 Yeah. 1199 00:52:10,937 --> 00:52:12,117 So, you know, 1200 00:52:12,157 --> 00:52:14,417 that's an interesting intellectual exercise. 1201 00:52:14,917 --> 00:52:17,317 But let's, for the sake of argument, 1202 00:52:17,317 --> 00:52:19,117 to get to the point I think you're saying, 1203 00:52:19,117 --> 00:52:23,337 Let's say we have proof that a quantum computer did it. 1204 00:52:25,837 --> 00:52:26,897 DQ's getting sick of it. 1205 00:52:27,797 --> 00:52:34,837 So I think, you know, first thing is like, get a better understanding of how much did it cost to do that and how long did it take? 1206 00:52:35,017 --> 00:52:46,657 So if it's $10 million in 10 years or something, or, you know, some super long period of time, then, I mean, there'd still be an urgency to make changes. 1207 00:52:46,657 --> 00:52:53,337 but you know it would be a very different story if it was cheaper and happening you know happening 1208 00:52:53,337 --> 00:53:00,857 much faster but like what would happen there'd be developers would be quadrupling down on like 1209 00:53:00,857 --> 00:53:08,497 okay what are option technical options to upgrade and there'd be a mad sprint to figure out which 1210 00:53:08,497 --> 00:53:15,217 one to do get developer consensus on that write the code write the tests get it prepared for a 1211 00:53:15,217 --> 00:53:19,897 soft fork. And then in parallel, the rest of the community will be like observing that and debating 1212 00:53:19,897 --> 00:53:25,297 that, et cetera. That's one thing that would happen. And that one, I guess I'm, I mean, 1213 00:53:25,397 --> 00:53:33,477 will it be chaotic and a shit show? Sure. But like, I think that the end result will be satisfactory. 1214 00:53:34,557 --> 00:53:40,577 And I think there will be consensus on, we can get the consensus on that in an emergency situation. 1215 00:53:41,137 --> 00:53:44,697 Another question, which is definitely the harder one, is what to do with the coins that 1216 00:53:44,697 --> 00:53:49,397 we don't think are going to move 1217 00:53:49,397 --> 00:53:52,557 or don't move within a certain window of time. 1218 00:53:53,397 --> 00:53:55,217 And that's where, you know, 1219 00:53:55,257 --> 00:53:57,017 there's definitely a community split today. 1220 00:53:57,177 --> 00:53:59,117 And it's not something that like developers 1221 00:53:59,117 --> 00:54:01,697 can weigh in on objectively and say like, 1222 00:54:01,777 --> 00:54:03,777 this is correct, this is incorrect. 1223 00:54:04,077 --> 00:54:04,517 That's a potential for it. 1224 00:54:04,517 --> 00:54:05,397 This is philosophical. 1225 00:54:05,837 --> 00:54:11,417 And so it really is something that all of Bitcoin should be, 1226 00:54:11,637 --> 00:54:13,637 everyone in Bitcoin should be weighing in on 1227 00:54:13,637 --> 00:54:18,357 and protocol developers don't have any extra weight in this decision. 1228 00:54:19,777 --> 00:54:23,037 Investors certainly have, whether you like it or not, 1229 00:54:23,097 --> 00:54:24,277 they definitely have the most weight 1230 00:54:24,277 --> 00:54:26,517 because that's where they're going to put their money behind 1231 00:54:26,517 --> 00:54:28,637 where they want the right decision. 1232 00:54:29,097 --> 00:54:31,357 I do think there's real risk of a fork there. 1233 00:54:32,617 --> 00:54:38,117 But even if there is, the market will play out 1234 00:54:38,117 --> 00:54:40,417 and one of them will get chosen. 1235 00:54:40,737 --> 00:54:42,057 So will that be chaotic? 1236 00:54:42,057 --> 00:54:42,617 Absolutely. 1237 00:54:42,617 --> 00:54:44,997 Absolutely. But will Bitcoin die? No. 1238 00:54:45,357 --> 00:54:51,697 It just might be that like, and like, I think you, I mean, like you're even in our little squalor there. 1239 00:54:51,777 --> 00:54:55,737 It's like, oh, you want the, you want the, the let them steal. 1240 00:54:55,917 --> 00:54:57,397 And I'm like, freeze. 1241 00:54:57,577 --> 00:54:59,257 I actually don't even feel that strongly about it. 1242 00:54:59,297 --> 00:55:03,317 So like, if there was a fork I'd hold for that issue, I would hold both sides of the fork. 1243 00:55:03,317 --> 00:55:08,877 I don't have like this strong conviction that this is right and this is wrong and I'll double down. 1244 00:55:08,997 --> 00:55:09,977 No, I'm going to hold both. 1245 00:55:10,317 --> 00:55:10,437 Yeah. 1246 00:55:10,497 --> 00:55:11,297 I bet you would too. 1247 00:55:11,417 --> 00:55:11,897 Yeah, probably would. 1248 00:55:11,897 --> 00:55:12,817 And a lot of people would. 1249 00:55:12,917 --> 00:55:14,717 So then like, okay, one of them wins. 1250 00:55:14,877 --> 00:55:16,017 And then like, because I just don't, 1251 00:55:16,097 --> 00:55:19,177 I just don't care which one wins, to be honest. 1252 00:55:19,877 --> 00:55:22,157 So one of them wins and then great, that's Bitcoin. 1253 00:55:22,397 --> 00:55:25,737 I could even care, but I don't know that it necessarily is right. 1254 00:55:25,877 --> 00:55:29,237 There's not like a right, like when a BCH or comes, 1255 00:55:29,317 --> 00:55:30,617 you're like, this trash, take rid of it. 1256 00:55:30,737 --> 00:55:35,717 I think most people will be indifferent to that decision 1257 00:55:35,717 --> 00:55:38,197 or like kind of favor this one, 1258 00:55:38,197 --> 00:55:40,157 but find the other one acceptable. 1259 00:55:40,157 --> 00:55:45,197 certainly compared to like Bitcoin's dead. 1260 00:55:45,717 --> 00:55:45,817 Sure. 1261 00:55:46,457 --> 00:55:48,077 Yeah, I mean, so a couple of thoughts on that. 1262 00:55:48,117 --> 00:55:49,817 I mean, just in that last issue first, 1263 00:55:50,077 --> 00:55:51,957 like, yeah, I would probably hold both in the same way 1264 00:55:51,957 --> 00:55:54,217 that like I don't want to like lose either way. 1265 00:55:54,297 --> 00:55:56,797 And like, that's my top priority as an individual actor. 1266 00:55:56,997 --> 00:56:00,157 Having said that, I could be convinced to get more involved. 1267 00:56:00,157 --> 00:56:03,197 And like, to me, there is a right answer. 1268 00:56:03,297 --> 00:56:05,617 And the right answer is like Bitcoin is free markets 1269 00:56:05,617 --> 00:56:06,797 and you either believe in free markets 1270 00:56:06,797 --> 00:56:07,797 or you don't believe in free markets. 1271 00:56:07,797 --> 00:56:13,117 And at the end of the day, I sadly think it's, I mean, it's very clear to me that there's 1272 00:56:13,117 --> 00:56:19,737 a line in the sand of like, you know, you start by saying with good intentions, we freeze 1273 00:56:19,737 --> 00:56:21,817 the old coins because it saves Bitcoin. 1274 00:56:21,937 --> 00:56:23,997 I think that's also very like short term price driven. 1275 00:56:24,157 --> 00:56:27,317 Like, yes, that will probably prevent panic in the market. 1276 00:56:27,517 --> 00:56:32,397 But at the same time, to me, it's a very slippery slope to Ethereum, very slippery slope. 1277 00:56:32,397 --> 00:56:34,977 and like, okay, who, you know, 1278 00:56:35,077 --> 00:56:36,257 and, you know, six months, 1279 00:56:36,337 --> 00:56:37,697 what happens if that person, 1280 00:56:37,937 --> 00:56:40,117 I don't know, Satoshi happens to be cryogenically frozen 1281 00:56:40,117 --> 00:56:41,717 and wants to come back and move their coins. 1282 00:56:42,097 --> 00:56:43,877 To me, it's a non-starter to mess with anything 1283 00:56:43,877 --> 00:56:44,477 that's not your own. 1284 00:56:44,657 --> 00:56:45,197 And I just, 1285 00:56:45,597 --> 00:56:46,337 Well, I've responded to that, 1286 00:56:46,377 --> 00:56:47,337 but I just wanted to point out, 1287 00:56:47,417 --> 00:56:48,717 Ian Smith chimed in. 1288 00:56:48,877 --> 00:56:50,917 I know he's heavily involved with the quantum stuff. 1289 00:56:51,037 --> 00:56:54,717 And my impression of his perspective is 1290 00:56:54,717 --> 00:56:56,417 he thinks it's happening sooner than later 1291 00:56:56,417 --> 00:56:57,937 and that Bitcoin needs to change. 1292 00:56:58,057 --> 00:56:59,717 So thanks for listening, Ian, and chiming in. 1293 00:56:59,917 --> 00:57:00,417 Yeah, yeah. 1294 00:57:00,417 --> 00:57:05,437 He said he's going to prepare a demonstration if he can about a quantum. 1295 00:57:05,697 --> 00:57:06,797 You about to hack Bitcoin, bro? 1296 00:57:07,217 --> 00:57:07,537 All right. 1297 00:57:08,897 --> 00:57:15,537 So, but the, oh, keep in mind there's, you know, 1298 00:57:15,817 --> 00:57:19,917 one of the things we discussed at the summit is like there's burn versus freeze as well. 1299 00:57:20,937 --> 00:57:26,777 Meaning that we already know of mechanisms that if I don't move my coins, 1300 00:57:27,397 --> 00:57:29,857 then they get burnt slash frozen. 1301 00:57:29,857 --> 00:57:31,557 They're actually frozen versus burnt. 1302 00:57:31,877 --> 00:57:33,437 I mean, no matter what is done, they're frozen. 1303 00:57:33,557 --> 00:57:38,717 Because you can always do another consensus change in the future, which unfreezes them. 1304 00:57:39,197 --> 00:57:39,337 Right? 1305 00:57:39,617 --> 00:57:41,817 And so what would that look like? 1306 00:57:42,957 --> 00:57:48,297 Well, one thing that I learned this year is that if you have a seed phrase to your coins, 1307 00:57:48,617 --> 00:57:52,057 that you can prove that your coins and a quantum computer cannot prove that. 1308 00:57:52,337 --> 00:57:57,157 Because a quantum computer cannot go from a private key to the seed words, right? 1309 00:57:57,157 --> 00:58:04,017 so interestingly even though i'm generally a proponent of seedless is safer here's an example 1310 00:58:04,017 --> 00:58:09,857 of where having a seed phrase is quite powerful steve just changes my you know everything's got 1311 00:58:09,857 --> 00:58:17,657 trade-offs so that that is definitely a win for seed phrases kind of intelligent so um so so again 1312 00:58:17,657 --> 00:58:25,417 like uh i think with if the coins are are frozen yeah if satoshi wakes up or whatever well he he 1313 00:58:25,417 --> 00:58:26,517 he would still be in trouble 1314 00:58:26,517 --> 00:58:28,917 because he doesn't have seed phrases for his coins. 1315 00:58:29,037 --> 00:58:30,877 But for people that have seed phrase, 1316 00:58:31,277 --> 00:58:31,577 they would, 1317 00:58:32,177 --> 00:58:34,337 if there's social consensus 1318 00:58:34,337 --> 00:58:36,717 to introduce that mechanism, 1319 00:58:37,197 --> 00:58:39,237 then they could get the coins back. 1320 00:58:39,257 --> 00:58:39,957 I hear you and all that. 1321 00:58:40,137 --> 00:58:41,097 I just, to me, it's just, 1322 00:58:41,177 --> 00:58:42,157 it's a clear bright line. 1323 00:58:42,297 --> 00:58:42,837 It's like, you know. 1324 00:58:42,837 --> 00:58:44,097 But again, I want to understand, 1325 00:58:44,337 --> 00:58:45,197 like, what, 1326 00:58:45,617 --> 00:58:47,437 so we're talking about 1327 00:58:47,437 --> 00:58:49,297 whether, you know, 1328 00:58:49,297 --> 00:58:51,337 the price just dumped 35%. 1329 00:58:51,337 --> 00:58:53,157 How much of that is due to quantum fear? 1330 00:58:53,357 --> 00:58:53,417 Yeah. 1331 00:58:53,617 --> 00:58:55,337 If I, so let's put our hats on 1332 00:58:55,337 --> 00:59:00,477 And all we care about, yeah, well, I've got my Satoshi hat on, so I care about peer-to-peer money. 1333 00:59:00,637 --> 00:59:03,317 But let's say I have my Michael Saylor hat on. 1334 00:59:03,437 --> 00:59:07,057 All I care about is number go up, price go up, digital gold. 1335 00:59:07,697 --> 00:59:08,257 Let's get rich. 1336 00:59:08,477 --> 00:59:09,837 Let's say that's all I care about. 1337 00:59:11,057 --> 00:59:18,557 So then I'm worried about quantum, so I sell my Bitcoin because I think it's a bad investment. 1338 00:59:19,257 --> 00:59:20,177 Well, why? 1339 00:59:20,297 --> 00:59:21,817 I'm still not hearing a reason why. 1340 00:59:21,817 --> 00:59:28,657 If a computer comes along and can crack the keys, we will change the cryptography to resist that. 1341 00:59:29,337 --> 00:59:34,697 And there's this difficult philosophical debate about freezing coins versus let them be stolen. 1342 00:59:35,117 --> 00:59:39,177 But one of the in the probably will be a split in the community in a fork. 1343 00:59:39,457 --> 00:59:41,177 But one of them will win out economically. 1344 00:59:41,497 --> 00:59:41,617 Yeah. 1345 00:59:41,837 --> 00:59:42,157 And so. 1346 00:59:42,397 --> 00:59:43,477 So it'll be a shit show. 1347 00:59:43,617 --> 00:59:44,597 It'll be a shit show. 1348 00:59:44,897 --> 00:59:46,817 But Bitcoin will still exist after that. 1349 00:59:46,877 --> 00:59:50,557 It'll it'll be secure and it will be unified. 1350 00:59:50,557 --> 00:59:52,297 and more resilient. 1351 00:59:52,557 --> 00:59:54,777 And frankly, it'll have survived 1352 00:59:54,777 --> 00:59:57,277 this horrible attack or whatever. 1353 00:59:57,877 --> 00:59:58,637 And then everything's good 1354 00:59:58,637 --> 00:59:59,217 for Bitcoin eventually. 1355 00:59:59,217 --> 01:00:01,977 So everyone's Bitcoin investment thesis 1356 01:00:01,977 --> 01:00:03,277 remains intact. 1357 01:00:03,477 --> 01:00:04,577 So why would you sell your Bitcoin? 1358 01:00:04,617 --> 01:00:05,617 I think that's a very easy answer. 1359 01:00:05,677 --> 01:00:06,377 I can answer in two ways. 1360 01:00:06,537 --> 01:00:11,437 Number one, I'll talk first like fundamentals 1361 01:00:11,437 --> 01:00:12,997 and then like sort of timing, right? 1362 01:00:13,657 --> 01:00:15,337 Fundamentals, like to be clear, 1363 01:00:15,477 --> 01:00:16,437 the post-quantum cryptography, 1364 01:00:16,517 --> 01:00:17,617 and again, I would love to see this laid out 1365 01:00:17,617 --> 01:00:18,157 in the white paper. 1366 01:00:18,257 --> 01:00:19,717 It's like we say we would make that change 1367 01:00:19,717 --> 01:00:21,857 And we say that that would be whatever functions secure. 1368 01:00:22,137 --> 01:00:24,877 Like my understanding is still the post-quantum cryptography is still like, 1369 01:00:24,917 --> 01:00:26,677 it's not been battle tested for like 50 years. 1370 01:00:27,477 --> 01:00:29,737 So that's still, it's a different proposition. 1371 01:00:29,857 --> 01:00:30,257 I hear you. 1372 01:00:30,297 --> 01:00:31,237 And like, we think it's right. 1373 01:00:31,297 --> 01:00:33,437 Like we think lattice cryptography or whatever we end up using works, 1374 01:00:33,497 --> 01:00:34,997 but like, it's not like ECDSA. 1375 01:00:35,137 --> 01:00:35,937 It's been around forever. 1376 01:00:35,977 --> 01:00:38,477 So there is new risk with a new algorithm. 1377 01:00:38,897 --> 01:00:40,617 And like the only way to do that, 1378 01:00:40,677 --> 01:00:43,777 just like with Bitcoin versus gold is time in reality. 1379 01:00:44,257 --> 01:00:45,797 And so it is a different world. 1380 01:00:45,917 --> 01:00:48,697 Like I would still be generally very favorable toward that and generally 1381 01:00:48,697 --> 01:00:53,577 agree with where you're going in the long run, but it's not, in my mind, the same slam dunk it is 1382 01:00:53,577 --> 01:00:58,757 with the old world algorithms. The bigger concern, though, is it's not even a concern, 1383 01:00:58,877 --> 01:01:03,737 but if I'm just an investor and let's say I'm in the perfect world where I don't have to pay 1384 01:01:03,737 --> 01:01:08,757 cap gains or trading, if I really think that this is going to be a shit show and let's say I think 1385 01:01:08,757 --> 01:01:13,657 Bitcoin could crash 80% to 90% again, okay, cool. I still believe in the long run. I dump now. I buy 1386 01:01:13,657 --> 01:01:15,577 again when it's at like, you know, whatever, 30K, 1387 01:01:16,117 --> 01:01:16,777 back to the races. 1388 01:01:17,097 --> 01:01:20,117 Yeah, but I think that the first point you made, 1389 01:01:20,417 --> 01:01:22,457 I think that's a valid point. 1390 01:01:22,677 --> 01:01:25,917 I personally would assign it like tiny values. 1391 01:01:25,917 --> 01:01:27,157 So it doesn't really change. 1392 01:01:27,817 --> 01:01:29,897 I don't think it changes the investment thesis. 1393 01:01:30,557 --> 01:01:32,797 Like maybe instead of like, you know, 1394 01:01:33,257 --> 01:01:36,377 a 10% allocation, I do a 9.5% allocation. 1395 01:01:36,877 --> 01:01:39,237 I mean, I kind of, well, just meaning. 1396 01:01:39,477 --> 01:01:40,577 Bro, what kind of Bitcoiner are you? 1397 01:01:40,577 --> 01:01:41,817 Yeah, what's going on there? 1398 01:01:41,817 --> 01:01:43,817 He means 110%. 1399 01:01:43,817 --> 01:01:44,197 I don't worry. 1400 01:01:46,797 --> 01:01:52,097 The second point, though, I don't really agree with. 1401 01:01:53,397 --> 01:01:56,517 Meaning the timing the market argument. 1402 01:01:57,897 --> 01:01:59,257 I'm not saying that's my position. 1403 01:01:59,777 --> 01:02:02,477 I know, but for any investor out there, 1404 01:02:02,617 --> 01:02:06,437 I don't find it to be a smart way to go about it. 1405 01:02:06,757 --> 01:02:08,737 Because there's so much uncertainty 1406 01:02:08,737 --> 01:02:11,677 about if and when the quantum computer will even exist. 1407 01:02:11,817 --> 01:02:28,557 And, you know, I certainly, I obviously don't know when this will happen, but through all the information I've consumed from a broad set of people, to me, it seems like it's still 15 to 20 years away. 1408 01:02:28,557 --> 01:02:31,617 and even if that's like 1409 01:02:31,617 --> 01:02:34,097 even if it's eight years away 1410 01:02:34,097 --> 01:02:35,777 that's just such a long time period 1411 01:02:35,777 --> 01:02:37,197 to stay out of the market 1412 01:02:37,197 --> 01:02:38,537 and not accumulate 1413 01:02:38,537 --> 01:02:39,997 so because like 1414 01:02:39,997 --> 01:02:41,597 let's say it's eight years away 1415 01:02:41,597 --> 01:02:42,277 which I think is 1416 01:02:42,277 --> 01:02:44,017 pretty aggressive estimate still 1417 01:02:44,017 --> 01:02:45,417 Bitcoin 1418 01:02:45,417 --> 01:02:46,437 most of us think 1419 01:02:46,437 --> 01:02:48,077 Bitcoin's going to a million dollars 1420 01:02:48,077 --> 01:02:49,397 or more in eight years 1421 01:02:49,397 --> 01:02:50,937 so if I could buy it today 1422 01:02:50,937 --> 01:02:51,897 for $80,000 1423 01:02:51,897 --> 01:02:53,817 and then it goes to a million dollars 1424 01:02:53,817 --> 01:02:55,377 and then we go through a shit show 1425 01:02:55,377 --> 01:02:56,877 and it goes crashes down 1426 01:02:56,877 --> 01:02:57,697 to $300,000 1427 01:02:57,697 --> 01:03:01,357 and then after the shit show, it goes to like $2 million. 1428 01:03:01,957 --> 01:03:04,537 Why would I not have wanted to invest to $80,000? 1429 01:03:04,857 --> 01:03:08,537 Well, I mean, I think the answer is not that you would just do both. 1430 01:03:08,657 --> 01:03:11,657 Like imagine you're someone who's extremely, extremely, extremely convicted 1431 01:03:11,657 --> 01:03:14,417 and you're, you know, like Steve, 110%. 1432 01:03:14,417 --> 01:03:20,157 Now, maybe you reduce your allocation from 110% to 55%. 1433 01:03:20,157 --> 01:03:20,877 You say, look, whatever. 1434 01:03:21,057 --> 01:03:23,997 Like if it goes still to the moon, like I win either way. 1435 01:03:24,357 --> 01:03:26,297 But like maybe does it make sense for me to hedge 1436 01:03:26,297 --> 01:03:27,817 with a post-quantum resistant rock. 1437 01:03:28,377 --> 01:03:29,237 I agree. 1438 01:03:29,357 --> 01:03:30,877 If you're overexposed, 1439 01:03:31,077 --> 01:03:32,137 trimming some of the position 1440 01:03:32,137 --> 01:03:34,097 probably is a smart idea regardless. 1441 01:03:34,317 --> 01:03:35,477 And I think that's a question of like, 1442 01:03:35,557 --> 01:03:36,337 is that what's happening? 1443 01:03:36,337 --> 01:03:38,577 And with, you know, 1444 01:03:39,077 --> 01:03:40,557 yeah, I think that's reasonable. 1445 01:03:41,077 --> 01:03:42,537 But if you're on the sidelines 1446 01:03:42,537 --> 01:03:45,597 or what many Bitcoin investors would say, 1447 01:03:45,677 --> 01:03:46,357 under-allocated, 1448 01:03:46,437 --> 01:03:47,937 then I think it makes no sense at all 1449 01:03:47,937 --> 01:03:50,097 to let quantum scare you out of. 1450 01:03:50,137 --> 01:03:51,317 I agree, but I would just say 1451 01:03:51,317 --> 01:03:53,337 before this one thing, 1452 01:03:53,377 --> 01:03:54,357 and I still want to get deeper on it. 1453 01:03:54,377 --> 01:03:55,397 I'm not super concerned yet, 1454 01:03:55,397 --> 01:04:14,077 I'm glad we're having this discussion. Frankly, we need to be raising a few more alarm bells if this is even a 0.1% chance of breaking our thesis. We should be aware of this. This is the first thing that I've ever been like, okay, I need to actually learn more to understand. Because I think most of us would agree, the 110% is the correct waiting if you know Bitcoin. 1455 01:04:15,217 --> 01:04:16,217 Don't use leverage. 1456 01:04:16,577 --> 01:04:17,057 I'm just kidding. 1457 01:04:17,057 --> 01:04:23,277 I think coming out of the quantum summit, 1458 01:04:23,497 --> 01:04:25,977 I thought that you and I each assessed maybe five years, 1459 01:04:26,117 --> 01:04:27,657 like our assessment. 1460 01:04:27,837 --> 01:04:29,297 Five years was like the clear, 1461 01:04:29,457 --> 01:04:31,117 that's what I took away from the summit. 1462 01:04:31,477 --> 01:04:33,417 But also with huge error bars, right? 1463 01:04:33,417 --> 01:04:35,237 Like the Japanese dude was also being like, 1464 01:04:35,297 --> 01:04:36,797 it could be in two, it could be never. 1465 01:04:37,357 --> 01:04:37,517 Yeah. 1466 01:04:38,436 --> 01:04:39,637 Speaking of Japan, 1467 01:04:40,637 --> 01:04:43,477 you shared this tweet about maybe one of the other reasons 1468 01:04:43,477 --> 01:04:44,817 that Bitcoin might be dumping 1469 01:04:44,817 --> 01:04:46,617 or the markets are going to dump, 1470 01:04:46,617 --> 01:04:49,537 which is some guy was kind of talking about macro stuff 1471 01:04:49,537 --> 01:04:51,197 around the Japanese carry trade 1472 01:04:51,197 --> 01:04:52,897 and the end of the carry trade, 1473 01:04:52,997 --> 01:04:54,737 which kind of fueled financial markets for the last 40 years. 1474 01:04:54,757 --> 01:04:56,557 DK is clearly a sophisticated macro investor. 1475 01:04:56,697 --> 01:04:57,177 Not at all. 1476 01:04:58,237 --> 01:05:00,877 Since you raised this, I assume you're going to break it down for it. 1477 01:05:01,037 --> 01:05:02,397 Explain it as the carry trade, Dika. 1478 01:05:02,617 --> 01:05:06,917 I thought you shared the tweet with something behind it. 1479 01:05:06,956 --> 01:05:08,737 Was it just like, look at this alarmist on Twitter? 1480 01:05:09,177 --> 01:05:09,697 Dude, don't you know? 1481 01:05:09,717 --> 01:05:10,537 I just share tweets. 1482 01:05:10,637 --> 01:05:11,436 I don't even read them. 1483 01:05:11,637 --> 01:05:11,956 Exactly. 1484 01:05:12,097 --> 01:05:12,477 It's true. 1485 01:05:12,597 --> 01:05:14,017 You've got like an agentic bot. 1486 01:05:14,137 --> 01:05:15,157 I understand how you just, 1487 01:05:15,157 --> 01:05:18,057 Steve sees something that he just wants to get us to talk about briefly. 1488 01:05:18,297 --> 01:05:19,777 He shared it, and I was like, oh, shit. 1489 01:05:19,977 --> 01:05:21,037 Is this going to blow up tomorrow? 1490 01:05:21,037 --> 01:05:21,997 I really have nothing to say. 1491 01:05:22,297 --> 01:05:23,417 I just don't know. 1492 01:05:23,577 --> 01:05:28,917 I mean, well, I think we all know the high-level Japan economic scene 1493 01:05:28,917 --> 01:05:30,456 from the past 30 years. 1494 01:05:30,537 --> 01:05:31,277 It's unsustainable. 1495 01:05:31,277 --> 01:05:36,097 But the specific concern that the person tweeted about, 1496 01:05:36,337 --> 01:05:40,697 I don't really – I just simply am not deep enough to really know. 1497 01:05:40,897 --> 01:05:42,877 I mean, they clearly didn't move the market this morning. 1498 01:05:43,137 --> 01:05:44,456 I mean, the tweet made it sound like – 1499 01:05:44,456 --> 01:05:46,417 He's like, get ready. Armageddon's coming tomorrow morning. 1500 01:05:46,737 --> 01:05:48,617 I also read that last night. I was like, oh, shit. 1501 01:05:48,717 --> 01:05:49,956 Like, what's coming tomorrow? Then I woke up. 1502 01:05:49,956 --> 01:05:55,517 But I mean, clearly, like, math is math. 1503 01:05:55,697 --> 01:05:57,436 So even just looking at the United States, 1504 01:05:57,857 --> 01:06:01,497 the interest payments on our debt, like, are growing. 1505 01:06:01,697 --> 01:06:04,297 When interest rates go from 0% to 5%, 1506 01:06:04,297 --> 01:06:07,956 obviously, your interest payment debt goes way up. 1507 01:06:08,936 --> 01:06:12,637 And since our debt continues to grow, the rates are going up. 1508 01:06:12,637 --> 01:06:18,717 I mean, we're spending over a trillion, Americans are spending over a trillion dollars a year of our budget on interest debt now, right? 1509 01:06:18,877 --> 01:06:20,477 Which, by the way, how insane is that? 1510 01:06:20,936 --> 01:06:22,097 It almost sounds like a cloud. 1511 01:06:22,097 --> 01:06:33,936 You can simply do the math, and I forget the exact numbers, but if it's like a 10 or 12 percent rate, I mean, if you go back to like 1980 era, interest rates rose to like 15 percent or something. 1512 01:06:33,936 --> 01:06:40,617 So imagine if they did that today, like our interest debt would be greater than our entire federal budget. 1513 01:06:40,617 --> 01:06:47,097 so the math simply doesn't work right so the united states cannot handle rates that high 1514 01:06:47,097 --> 01:06:51,837 they can't really i mean we talked about this a couple years ago like they the rates cannot go to 1515 01:06:51,837 --> 01:06:57,317 10 without things just blowing up and then ultimately really the only way out of this 1516 01:06:57,317 --> 01:07:04,177 uh and like ray dalio and any other like savvy financial people say you got to print money 1517 01:07:04,177 --> 01:07:08,597 that's the only way out of this so japan has been in a similar situation except for 1518 01:07:08,597 --> 01:07:10,517 decades. For a lot longer, yeah. 1519 01:07:10,677 --> 01:07:12,677 And so I think this guy tweeted about 1520 01:07:12,677 --> 01:07:14,936 they are raising 1521 01:07:14,936 --> 01:07:16,837 their rates now and it's just going to 1522 01:07:16,837 --> 01:07:18,717 blow things up. They sort of kept them 1523 01:07:18,717 --> 01:07:20,956 artificially low and people executed this 1524 01:07:20,956 --> 01:07:22,897 arbitrage across the cheap 1525 01:07:22,897 --> 01:07:24,797 capital you can get. They bar in yen and then 1526 01:07:24,797 --> 01:07:26,877 invest elsewhere. And so, and because 1527 01:07:26,877 --> 01:07:28,697 of that, that's actually a reason why 1528 01:07:28,697 --> 01:07:30,917 it might hurt the price 1529 01:07:30,917 --> 01:07:32,617 of it. Hey guys, this is unusual, but I have to 1530 01:07:32,617 --> 01:07:33,477 second week in a row. 1531 01:07:34,877 --> 01:07:36,537 We're going to have to schedule 1532 01:07:36,537 --> 01:07:38,577 a doctorate appointment. 1533 01:07:38,597 --> 01:07:41,477 He's just a urologist or something. 1534 01:07:41,857 --> 01:07:41,997 Sorry. 1535 01:07:43,857 --> 01:07:48,637 Well, since he's, I mean, get him like a boomer diaper or something. 1536 01:07:51,517 --> 01:07:58,497 But the, so I've heard about this U.S. debt problem forever, 1537 01:07:58,497 --> 01:08:01,837 and it always seems unsustainable, yet it keeps going. 1538 01:08:01,997 --> 01:08:04,597 So is there like one moment where people will finally wake up? 1539 01:08:04,597 --> 01:08:05,177 That's a great question. 1540 01:08:05,257 --> 01:08:07,337 Because it's like, I remember being a kid. 1541 01:08:07,337 --> 01:08:08,456 I remember being a kid. 1542 01:08:08,456 --> 01:08:09,217 This is insane. 1543 01:08:09,337 --> 01:08:14,137 I remember in the 80s hearing the ballooning debt under Reagan or whatever, 1544 01:08:14,257 --> 01:08:15,717 and that it was unsustainable. 1545 01:08:16,097 --> 01:08:18,396 And if you did the math then too, it did seem true. 1546 01:08:19,297 --> 01:08:20,537 And here we are. 1547 01:08:22,477 --> 01:08:26,797 Do we need like something to prick the balloon? 1548 01:08:28,017 --> 01:08:30,797 Is there one catastrophic moment that may happen? 1549 01:08:30,797 --> 01:08:34,797 If you print money, you can get yourself out of this pickle, 1550 01:08:34,797 --> 01:08:38,396 but then there's obviously negative ramifications of printing money. 1551 01:08:38,777 --> 01:08:43,957 So I really think that's what's been done historically, 1552 01:08:44,497 --> 01:08:46,417 and I think it's just going to continue to happen. 1553 01:08:46,497 --> 01:08:47,557 Let me summarize for Max. 1554 01:08:47,877 --> 01:08:50,217 He said, nothing stops his train. 1555 01:08:51,816 --> 01:08:53,517 I see someone's listening to a Lynn Hall podcast. 1556 01:08:53,697 --> 01:08:54,597 We should ask Glenn. 1557 01:08:54,637 --> 01:08:55,597 I don't know if Lynn listens to this. 1558 01:08:55,637 --> 01:08:56,157 Anyone knows Lynn? 1559 01:08:56,816 --> 01:08:57,157 I don't know. 1560 01:08:58,017 --> 01:08:59,396 He's not doing his gait. 1561 01:08:59,936 --> 01:09:00,557 Oh, yeah. 1562 01:09:01,037 --> 01:09:01,637 No, it's terrible. 1563 01:09:02,477 --> 01:09:03,697 I do pound. 1564 01:09:03,697 --> 01:09:06,697 And I should probably stop double fisting T when I get on the show. 1565 01:09:07,957 --> 01:09:08,896 Kegels maybe too. 1566 01:09:10,316 --> 01:09:11,097 But yeah. 1567 01:09:11,356 --> 01:09:11,977 Warm the room up. 1568 01:09:12,337 --> 01:09:13,477 I think they're. 1569 01:09:14,997 --> 01:09:17,117 No, I mean, I think we'll just keep renting money. 1570 01:09:17,257 --> 01:09:17,396 Right. 1571 01:09:17,896 --> 01:09:18,816 So it must be kind of the. 1572 01:09:19,237 --> 01:09:20,177 So it'll be just like. 1573 01:09:20,217 --> 01:09:20,677 Oh, okay. 1574 01:09:20,837 --> 01:09:22,137 I thought this would be very important. 1575 01:09:22,677 --> 01:09:23,936 Steve's told us what's going to happen. 1576 01:09:24,337 --> 01:09:24,537 Yeah. 1577 01:09:24,677 --> 01:09:28,237 We were just talking about the Japan thing and how in the 80s, even back in the 80s, we 1578 01:09:28,237 --> 01:09:29,677 were like, this is insane. 1579 01:09:29,877 --> 01:09:31,017 How does this exist? 1580 01:09:31,057 --> 01:09:31,997 And it just keeps going. 1581 01:09:31,997 --> 01:10:01,816 Well, I asked my friend that. My friend is like a sort of macro hedge fund dude. I remember like 10 years ago, I kept asking, I was like, Japan doesn't seem sustainable to me. And he kept being like, well, that's for this reason and cultural. And I do buy there's like some cultural, like they can like sort of like diffuse or like inflate away more than most places can. Because I do think Japan has like such like a almost like Japanese hive mind sort of vibe. Like people really do. Like no one like, like you can drop your credit card there and like everyone will pick it up and find you like bathrooms or spick and span. 1582 01:10:01,816 --> 01:10:07,957 They really do have a more collectivist, I think, culture than most places do, but you can only do that for someone. 1583 01:10:07,977 --> 01:10:09,557 You got to export TVs or something. 1584 01:10:09,757 --> 01:10:12,697 You have to do something that other people value. 1585 01:10:12,837 --> 01:10:15,337 You can't just pick up a card and be nice. 1586 01:10:16,257 --> 01:10:25,677 I think my takeaway from this and all of our investing conversations is just like, it's going to be really interesting to see what the world looks like with investing again on real markets. 1587 01:10:25,977 --> 01:10:29,177 This is your brain on whatever fiat. 1588 01:10:29,177 --> 01:10:32,057 and it just doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense. 1589 01:10:32,297 --> 01:10:33,597 It doesn't make sense. 1590 01:10:36,417 --> 01:10:41,717 Anything more on price or should we talk about MDK? 1591 01:10:42,617 --> 01:10:43,497 Well, it's definitely that. 1592 01:10:43,637 --> 01:10:43,777 Yeah. 1593 01:10:44,377 --> 01:10:48,356 One last thing is a lot of people have a lot of respect for Warren Buffett. 1594 01:10:48,497 --> 01:10:55,077 I'm not going to say one way or the other, but he has made his career 1595 01:10:55,077 --> 01:10:57,277 on value investing and saying, 1596 01:10:57,417 --> 01:10:59,197 like, find the things that are underpriced 1597 01:10:59,197 --> 01:10:59,757 and good assets. 1598 01:11:00,577 --> 01:11:02,977 And for two decades, 1599 01:11:03,877 --> 01:11:04,917 Larry and Sergey from Google 1600 01:11:04,917 --> 01:11:08,877 had been prompting him to participate in Google. 1601 01:11:08,997 --> 01:11:10,977 And Google really looked up to Warren Buffett 1602 01:11:10,977 --> 01:11:13,177 and wanted him to get involved 1603 01:11:13,177 --> 01:11:16,197 from the earliest days of going public. 1604 01:11:16,637 --> 01:11:18,177 And he finally made an allocation, 1605 01:11:18,297 --> 01:11:20,637 a big allocation last week. 1606 01:11:21,237 --> 01:11:31,835 So okay I have a couple questions Oh I didn know that Yeah Yeah Yeah Like 20 years late I don know Even like Warren Buffett it like I don know like a lot of these guys just seem like very close to the money printer 1607 01:11:31,975 --> 01:11:34,235 like playing rig games, banks they can't lose. 1608 01:11:34,335 --> 01:11:36,155 I'm not sure I have a lot of respect for him ever. 1609 01:11:36,515 --> 01:11:40,075 But to your point, I mean, I think aren't a lot of people suggesting 1610 01:11:40,075 --> 01:11:41,655 it wasn't Warren that made that allocation? 1611 01:11:41,815 --> 01:11:42,135 Yeah, maybe. 1612 01:11:42,916 --> 01:11:47,155 But also, it's not late in the sense that he has such massive amounts of money 1613 01:11:47,155 --> 01:11:50,335 he couldn't have invested in some tiny little Google 20 years ago, right? 1614 01:11:50,335 --> 01:11:59,395 Which is the whole problem when you get so big is like getting returns, the same kind of returns that Berkshire did in the 70s and 80s and early 90s is like impossible. 1615 01:11:59,675 --> 01:12:05,275 I do think the techniques that he used and got famous for are probably not really available anymore. 1616 01:12:05,376 --> 01:12:06,635 Like the market moves and changes. 1617 01:12:06,855 --> 01:12:07,935 So you kind of have to always change. 1618 01:12:08,175 --> 01:12:16,495 Kind of like the kind of returns Hivemind is going to return are impossible for a Sequoia or V16s either to do. 1619 01:12:16,715 --> 01:12:18,175 Our absolute assets may be small. 1620 01:12:18,175 --> 01:12:24,715 it's a big multiple game then right yeah it is yeah it is it's more fun that way too like 1621 01:12:24,715 --> 01:12:29,355 and all these guys they you know it's like banks get fat on fiat investors get fat on 1622 01:12:29,355 --> 01:12:34,675 management fees well good so that's a great segue to your investment we all three invested in a new 1623 01:12:34,675 --> 01:12:39,015 company well sorry i just want to add one last thing because i do think it's important so when i 1624 01:12:39,015 --> 01:12:44,115 when i do see them though i think in the back of my head on this macro point like buffett has been 1625 01:12:44,115 --> 01:12:47,755 in cash for a long time my other thing is just like are people smelling i think it's gonna be a 1626 01:12:47,755 --> 01:12:50,475 very weird economic time because it's like, are people smelling some big crash? 1627 01:12:50,535 --> 01:12:51,495 You see all this macro stuff? 1628 01:12:51,775 --> 01:12:52,755 It seems like there's a crash coming. 1629 01:12:53,075 --> 01:12:57,575 Yet at the same time, we have this like, the investment in AI infrastructure and data centers, 1630 01:12:57,675 --> 01:13:01,135 I'm quite convinced is just going to go vertical, even if there's a giant crash. 1631 01:13:01,435 --> 01:13:04,435 And the fact that he's allocated to Google makes me, again, I've been so super impressed 1632 01:13:04,435 --> 01:13:05,275 with Google the deeper I'm going. 1633 01:13:05,555 --> 01:13:08,975 But it does feel like we're entering this like completely uncharted territory. 1634 01:13:08,975 --> 01:13:12,075 Not only, like we've never had a situation where there's been like a fundamental macro 1635 01:13:12,075 --> 01:13:17,735 crash, but at the same time, like literal new industrial or agricultural. 1636 01:13:17,755 --> 01:13:20,275 revolution level technology 1637 01:13:20,275 --> 01:13:21,835 is going to require 1638 01:13:21,835 --> 01:13:23,916 presumably 1639 01:13:23,916 --> 01:13:26,155 all global GDP to build out the data 1640 01:13:26,155 --> 01:13:28,255 centers we need. So it's just a very weird 1641 01:13:28,255 --> 01:13:30,255 time. I don't think anyone fucking knows 1642 01:13:30,255 --> 01:13:32,155 this is the short answer. This is uncharted 1643 01:13:32,155 --> 01:13:33,835 territory. The money is going to keep printing. 1644 01:13:34,135 --> 01:13:36,095 The money will keep printing. But that's another 1645 01:13:36,095 --> 01:13:38,135 dynamic too. If AI ushers in 1646 01:13:38,135 --> 01:13:39,775 unparalleled 1647 01:13:39,775 --> 01:13:42,075 prosperity and economic growth or whatever 1648 01:13:42,075 --> 01:13:44,275 then that also is a way out of a bad 1649 01:13:44,275 --> 01:13:45,195 debt situation. 1650 01:13:45,195 --> 01:13:46,395 Yeah, it's worth it. 1651 01:13:46,515 --> 01:13:48,395 Okay, but much more exciting. 1652 01:13:48,655 --> 01:13:49,876 And it's not just HiveMind. 1653 01:13:49,995 --> 01:13:51,815 I hear there are a few other investors here 1654 01:13:51,815 --> 01:13:54,135 on the podcast with me. 1655 01:13:54,255 --> 01:13:56,916 We all, I think, are very stoked and excited. 1656 01:13:57,535 --> 01:13:58,535 It was already announced, 1657 01:13:58,675 --> 01:14:00,975 but we have invested, each of us, 1658 01:14:01,015 --> 01:14:03,755 in a company called MDK Money Development Kit 1659 01:14:03,755 --> 01:14:05,595 from our guy, Nick Slaney. 1660 01:14:06,075 --> 01:14:07,495 Those of you who don't know Nick, 1661 01:14:08,015 --> 01:14:10,975 I think I met Nick maybe four or five years ago 1662 01:14:10,975 --> 01:14:14,235 at a random bit devs back at DG Digital Garage. 1663 01:14:14,235 --> 01:14:17,835 and at the time, I guess he was on the big key team at Block 1664 01:14:17,835 --> 01:14:20,275 and I was just like, we were chatting about all this 1665 01:14:20,275 --> 01:14:21,655 Lightning Network rate of returns 1666 01:14:21,655 --> 01:14:23,435 from some of Nick Botti's early ideas 1667 01:14:23,435 --> 01:14:25,916 and I could tell this guy is super, super sharp. 1668 01:14:26,995 --> 01:14:28,355 And yeah, we had a good lunch 1669 01:14:28,355 --> 01:14:29,916 and talked about a lot of these ideas. 1670 01:14:30,115 --> 01:14:31,195 A couple months later, he's like, 1671 01:14:31,275 --> 01:14:33,215 actually now I'm building this out of Block, 1672 01:14:33,335 --> 01:14:35,575 which then became C equals, which has become, 1673 01:14:35,935 --> 01:14:37,635 I don't know if it's how you rank it, number one 1674 01:14:37,635 --> 01:14:39,775 or certainly an industry leading node. 1675 01:14:40,335 --> 01:14:42,435 And all of the big announcement that Square gave us 1676 01:14:42,435 --> 01:14:47,995 over the summer when we had the Bitcoin conference was they're getting 10%, let's say roughly 9%, 1677 01:14:47,995 --> 01:14:53,095 10% return on capital. However, you want to calculate that metric on that Lightning node, 1678 01:14:53,395 --> 01:14:56,955 still a small node in absolute terms, but I think it's like $100 million or something. So it's not 1679 01:14:56,955 --> 01:15:01,655 small in Bitcoin terms, or at least Bitcoin industry terms. And yeah, I think Nick deserves 1680 01:15:01,655 --> 01:15:07,275 a lot of credit for figuring basically how to build that node. And anyway, so I've been a big 1681 01:15:07,275 --> 01:15:12,295 fan of his for a long time. And when he left and started playing with the new idea, MDK or Money 1682 01:15:12,295 --> 01:15:17,835 development kit. I was very excited. Someone I've been tracking for five plus years or four or five 1683 01:15:17,835 --> 01:15:22,795 years. And I love his thesis. And I know DK, you've spent a lot of time with him. But the thing that 1684 01:15:22,795 --> 01:15:29,075 really I love about MDK is they're trying to find the easiest way to add like network or Bitcoin 1685 01:15:29,075 --> 01:15:37,355 payments to a new website or vibe coded app in like minutes. And so he just launched in his video 1686 01:15:37,355 --> 01:15:41,275 what he's calling a world record. I don't know who's like arbitrating that, but like, whatever, 1687 01:15:41,275 --> 01:15:45,515 we'll go with it, a world record of the fastest time to add payments to a new app. 1688 01:15:45,595 --> 01:15:46,355 And it's pretty impressive. 1689 01:15:46,995 --> 01:15:51,735 And I think my, I believe the positioning is adding payments. 1690 01:15:51,915 --> 01:15:52,095 Yes. 1691 01:15:52,615 --> 01:15:56,915 Meaning not necessarily, I mean, it is literally adding Bitcoin payments, but like, I think 1692 01:15:56,915 --> 01:16:00,715 them, and you, you, I think worked with them on, on that messaging, but just add, you know, 1693 01:16:00,715 --> 01:16:08,475 the fastest way to add Bitcoin or to add payments, but really convening with a Stripe UX. 1694 01:16:08,475 --> 01:16:10,395 so that's what I wanted 1695 01:16:10,395 --> 01:16:11,335 because I've been 1696 01:16:11,335 --> 01:16:14,395 challenging DK and Nick 1697 01:16:14,395 --> 01:16:15,855 as well about like okay 1698 01:16:15,855 --> 01:16:17,995 can't you add 1699 01:16:17,995 --> 01:16:20,595 payment super fast with some of the other tools 1700 01:16:20,595 --> 01:16:22,535 that we've been seeing like Lexi 1701 01:16:22,535 --> 01:16:24,376 and with Spark SDK 1702 01:16:24,376 --> 01:16:24,895 etc 1703 01:16:24,895 --> 01:16:28,395 I think the answer is yes 1704 01:16:28,395 --> 01:16:30,395 but we can do a bake off there but if the answer 1705 01:16:30,395 --> 01:16:32,215 is not yes I think 1706 01:16:32,215 --> 01:16:33,035 all of them 1707 01:16:33,035 --> 01:16:36,355 if not already will soon be able to do 1708 01:16:36,355 --> 01:16:37,495 less than five minutes 1709 01:16:37,495 --> 01:16:52,755 So, but we, you know, you shared some other, both Nick and you shared some other ideas about like, how can the positioning of, you know, of this product win, even in the face of other SDKs that can do that? I don't know if you want to elaborate on that. 1710 01:16:52,755 --> 01:17:01,675 Yeah, so the details were, I think, you know, the video showed like, oh, hey, like app to payment acceptance in five minutes, world record speed run. 1711 01:17:02,035 --> 01:17:07,575 And then I think Stevie made some comment like, can't you do this with like Spark and Lexi and maybe Stripe or a few others? 1712 01:17:08,055 --> 01:17:10,615 I haven't actually tried kind of a bake off like that. 1713 01:17:11,355 --> 01:17:19,175 But I think there's probably like, I don't think you purely can differentiate on like the five minute implementation because now that's kind of possible. 1714 01:17:19,175 --> 01:17:22,115 Probably everybody can kind of do something of that flavor. 1715 01:17:22,755 --> 01:17:34,695 But I think there's, you know, if you say we really care about focusing on the developer experience and developer, maybe a newly emergent developer might be a certain type. 1716 01:17:34,975 --> 01:17:36,155 A builder even, not a developer. 1717 01:17:36,255 --> 01:17:36,415 Right. 1718 01:17:36,775 --> 01:17:37,095 A vibe coder. 1719 01:17:37,095 --> 01:17:48,395 A vibe coder who can build something that's economically valuable to people, but doesn't, maybe doesn't have access to Stripe, doesn't know how to do API integrations or SDK integrations much and kind of wants to vibe code it. 1720 01:17:48,575 --> 01:17:49,876 He's asking what a pull request is. 1721 01:17:49,915 --> 01:17:50,495 Yeah, yeah, right. 1722 01:17:50,495 --> 01:17:52,155 I mean, that's very real. 1723 01:17:52,155 --> 01:18:02,835 So I think like we're sort of maybe too deep in GitHub to recognize that newcomers may not be, you know, have a lot of facility with these tools. 1724 01:18:03,895 --> 01:18:10,615 So I think the developer experience, you know, maybe starts with a five minute app to payment acceptance. 1725 01:18:10,775 --> 01:18:12,215 But I think there's so much more to it. 1726 01:18:12,295 --> 01:18:14,895 Like, who are you marketing to? 1727 01:18:14,995 --> 01:18:16,095 Who are you speaking to? 1728 01:18:16,235 --> 01:18:17,595 How are you speaking to them? 1729 01:18:17,655 --> 01:18:19,295 How does your documentation work? 1730 01:18:19,295 --> 01:18:20,615 how does your 1731 01:18:20,615 --> 01:18:23,695 you know the developer experience is like when I have a problem 1732 01:18:23,695 --> 01:18:25,876 and I talk to somebody do I get an answer 1733 01:18:25,876 --> 01:18:27,895 from the person building it or do I 1734 01:18:27,895 --> 01:18:29,495 get shuttled through some help center 1735 01:18:29,495 --> 01:18:31,915 that's developer experience in my mind so I think 1736 01:18:31,915 --> 01:18:34,095 the fact that like Nick created a video 1737 01:18:34,095 --> 01:18:35,795 and shared and he's obviously 1738 01:18:35,795 --> 01:18:37,915 accessible and available on Twitter if you build 1739 01:18:37,915 --> 01:18:39,675 something with MDK and you have a problem 1740 01:18:39,675 --> 01:18:41,755 obviously tag him and 1741 01:18:41,755 --> 01:18:43,555 I would bet that he will be very 1742 01:18:43,555 --> 01:18:45,435 quick to respond whereas if you get 1743 01:18:45,435 --> 01:18:47,735 you know it's not like a I actually like the fact 1744 01:18:47,735 --> 01:18:52,055 It was not some high gloss, you know, kind of corporate website. 1745 01:18:52,195 --> 01:18:58,755 He's speaking as an individual, which is really, you know, I think he should lean into that, what he is today and be the best at that. 1746 01:18:58,815 --> 01:19:02,535 Because that's the kind of thing that I think can attract a different, he can run hackathons. 1747 01:19:02,935 --> 01:19:08,295 There's so much to developer experience besides the five minutes, but I think the five minutes is like kind of table stakes, let's say. 1748 01:19:08,295 --> 01:19:18,735 I think both he and you also pointed out there's the dashboard and tools facing that the Vibe Coder would use. 1749 01:19:19,815 --> 01:19:23,775 And that's a product differentiation beyond just the five-minute onboarding. 1750 01:19:23,876 --> 01:19:26,876 Yeah, and I think it's also notable that we love all these companies. 1751 01:19:27,155 --> 01:19:30,415 We're also investors in Lexi, I'm an investor in Albi, a lot of these companies. 1752 01:19:30,795 --> 01:19:35,435 I think it's all Team Bitcoin, Team Lightning, and we're so, so, so, so early. 1753 01:19:35,435 --> 01:19:40,376 like you know i forgot what i was uh you know hearing about this but it's just like any um i 1754 01:19:40,376 --> 01:19:43,955 don't know like startup competition is not really a thing in my mind like there's gonna be so many 1755 01:19:43,955 --> 01:19:50,155 niches to fill like the competition is stripe to be frank right and so uh i think i'm glad to see 1756 01:19:50,155 --> 01:19:55,715 nick has been at least in my experience so far unique i mean all these guys are exploring vibe 1757 01:19:55,715 --> 01:20:00,155 coding to some degree but what got me over um the hurdle i mean i was already a big fan of nick i 1758 01:20:00,155 --> 01:20:04,995 just think like what he's done is already gangster at block he's gonna do it again but what really 1759 01:20:04,995 --> 01:20:10,675 got me sold on this particular idea, and I think you really helped him on this, was laser 1760 01:20:10,675 --> 01:20:11,035 focus. 1761 01:20:11,715 --> 01:20:12,635 Don't focus on Bitcoin. 1762 01:20:12,795 --> 01:20:14,415 This is payments for Vibe coders. 1763 01:20:14,915 --> 01:20:16,215 And that, to me, is very compelling. 1764 01:20:16,955 --> 01:20:17,015 Yeah. 1765 01:20:17,215 --> 01:20:21,795 And maybe you could speak more, because you pointed out to me, too, just the focus on 1766 01:20:21,795 --> 01:20:23,635 marketing, because I'm like, well, what about Spark? 1767 01:20:23,755 --> 01:20:27,735 And then you went and looked at their positioning and their framing. 1768 01:20:27,735 --> 01:20:33,095 And it's just, they're trying, LightSpark's trying to solve, you know, work on so many 1769 01:20:33,095 --> 01:20:35,175 use cases. Just like 1770 01:20:35,175 --> 01:20:37,535 very expansive. Yeah, and so 1771 01:20:37,535 --> 01:20:39,135 you know, 1772 01:20:39,255 --> 01:20:40,735 if a company 1773 01:20:40,735 --> 01:20:42,975 really singles in on 1774 01:20:42,975 --> 01:20:45,175 Vibe coding, it's just going to 1775 01:20:45,175 --> 01:20:46,335 reach more people 1776 01:20:46,335 --> 01:20:49,075 that will never even learn of or discover 1777 01:20:49,075 --> 01:20:50,935 Spark. Right. And I think Spark, 1778 01:20:51,095 --> 01:20:53,035 I looked on your challenge, I looked 1779 01:20:53,035 --> 01:20:54,975 at the Spark marketing 1780 01:20:54,975 --> 01:20:56,975 copy for the developer site 1781 01:20:56,975 --> 01:20:58,995 and it has really nice like, here's the code, you can 1782 01:20:58,995 --> 01:21:00,975 see it right when you open up the site, but it says 1783 01:21:00,975 --> 01:21:02,995 like to build the best, I think, financial 1784 01:21:02,995 --> 01:21:09,135 applications or like asset issuance, which sounds like that itself is a big market. 1785 01:21:09,235 --> 01:21:11,675 And that presumably is where they see a lot of value and want to focus. 1786 01:21:12,135 --> 01:21:12,535 But it's different. 1787 01:21:12,535 --> 01:21:17,515 But it seems different than like the examples, you know, that Nick was sharing with me is 1788 01:21:17,515 --> 01:21:25,355 like, you know, if you run a tarot card site, you know, like that may not work for Visa 1789 01:21:25,355 --> 01:21:29,935 because maybe there's some potential fraud or chargeback rates and there's concerns on 1790 01:21:29,935 --> 01:21:30,055 that. 1791 01:21:30,055 --> 01:21:31,876 but like if you run that site 1792 01:21:31,876 --> 01:21:32,876 and it's economically valuable 1793 01:21:32,876 --> 01:21:34,115 and people want to pay you, 1794 01:21:34,235 --> 01:21:35,255 how do you accept payments? 1795 01:21:35,415 --> 01:21:36,376 Like that's not solved, 1796 01:21:36,575 --> 01:21:37,995 whether it's vibe coded or otherwise. 1797 01:21:38,315 --> 01:21:39,795 Well, I think it also just the number of countries, 1798 01:21:39,855 --> 01:21:41,855 like how many countries is Stripe operational in? 1799 01:21:42,275 --> 01:21:43,695 It's like less than half, I think. 1800 01:21:43,695 --> 01:21:44,355 Right, yeah. 1801 01:21:44,376 --> 01:21:44,975 So like, yes, 1802 01:21:45,055 --> 01:21:47,755 they have the largest part of the GDP pie. 1803 01:21:48,195 --> 01:21:50,295 There's still like a huge chunk of humans 1804 01:21:50,295 --> 01:21:51,335 that can't access it. 1805 01:21:51,735 --> 01:21:52,955 And I think there's also not, 1806 01:21:53,075 --> 01:21:53,395 like, I mean, 1807 01:21:53,455 --> 01:21:54,495 you remember before Stripe, 1808 01:21:54,555 --> 01:21:55,175 there was Braintree. 1809 01:21:56,075 --> 01:21:58,795 You could kind of do the thing, right? 1810 01:21:58,795 --> 01:21:59,795 But it just wasn't like, 1811 01:22:00,055 --> 01:22:00,895 really well done. 1812 01:22:01,795 --> 01:22:04,315 And, you know, Braintree, I think, still exists 1813 01:22:04,315 --> 01:22:05,135 and probably was acquired. 1814 01:22:05,275 --> 01:22:05,475 I don't know. 1815 01:22:05,675 --> 01:22:08,475 What are the odds that Nick is now going to get us all 1816 01:22:08,475 --> 01:22:10,455 into cold water, hot saunas, 1817 01:22:10,655 --> 01:22:13,655 and trying to get us to eat his figgy pudding soon? 1818 01:22:14,435 --> 01:22:15,255 But I think... 1819 01:22:15,255 --> 01:22:15,915 That's act two. 1820 01:22:16,255 --> 01:22:17,795 This market is so big. 1821 01:22:18,155 --> 01:22:19,155 Like, let me ask you, 1822 01:22:19,215 --> 01:22:21,175 which is the vibe coding company? 1823 01:22:22,095 --> 01:22:22,376 Replit. 1824 01:22:22,855 --> 01:22:23,275 Replit. 1825 01:22:23,415 --> 01:22:24,235 But that's not true. 1826 01:22:24,915 --> 01:22:25,275 It's... 1827 01:22:25,275 --> 01:22:26,155 Gemini 3? 1828 01:22:26,835 --> 01:22:28,475 Well, I mean, what about Lovable? 1829 01:22:29,475 --> 01:22:30,255 What about Cursor? 1830 01:22:30,415 --> 01:22:30,535 Yeah. 1831 01:22:30,735 --> 01:22:31,435 Like, there's just, 1832 01:22:31,535 --> 01:22:32,235 these are huge. 1833 01:22:32,415 --> 01:22:32,876 Cursor's worth, 1834 01:22:32,975 --> 01:22:33,335 what do you think 1835 01:22:33,335 --> 01:22:34,555 Cursor's market cap is? 1836 01:22:34,615 --> 01:22:35,255 In private markets, 1837 01:22:35,315 --> 01:22:35,955 but what do you think it is? 1838 01:22:36,095 --> 01:22:36,475 $2 billion. 1839 01:22:37,175 --> 01:22:37,876 No, it's $80. 1840 01:22:38,535 --> 01:22:38,855 Is it? 1841 01:22:39,376 --> 01:22:40,115 Okay, I was going to say $30. 1842 01:22:40,355 --> 01:22:40,876 I was going to say $80 billion. 1843 01:22:41,255 --> 01:22:41,735 It's something. 1844 01:22:41,876 --> 01:22:42,915 They just raised again. 1845 01:22:43,235 --> 01:22:43,715 Are you serious? 1846 01:22:43,715 --> 01:22:44,395 Did they just raise it $80? 1847 01:22:44,755 --> 01:22:45,515 I think it was. 1848 01:22:45,535 --> 01:22:45,876 That could be. 1849 01:22:46,055 --> 01:22:47,035 Definitely on the order. 1850 01:22:47,075 --> 01:22:47,835 $30 recently, 1851 01:22:48,035 --> 01:22:49,095 but it certainly could be. 1852 01:22:49,095 --> 01:22:49,755 They raised again, 1853 01:22:49,835 --> 01:22:50,415 like, months. 1854 01:22:50,575 --> 01:22:50,855 All right, 1855 01:22:50,855 --> 01:22:52,435 I'm feeling like Michael Burry right now. 1856 01:22:53,815 --> 01:22:55,235 Did you register high-bind? 1857 01:22:55,235 --> 01:22:57,095 It's a little unfortunate. 1858 01:22:57,376 --> 01:22:57,675 Founders, 1859 01:22:58,475 --> 01:22:59,435 not get into that company. 1860 01:22:59,835 --> 01:23:00,635 Yeah, because they were there. 1861 01:23:00,795 --> 01:23:01,475 I remember I saw them. 1862 01:23:01,795 --> 01:23:02,975 Y'all also had, 1863 01:23:03,055 --> 01:23:04,135 and this one also pains me, 1864 01:23:04,155 --> 01:23:04,495 I've had some businesses. 1865 01:23:04,495 --> 01:23:05,495 Maybe they'll do retroactive 1866 01:23:05,495 --> 01:23:05,995 or something. 1867 01:23:06,655 --> 01:23:07,555 You had Anthropic there too. 1868 01:23:07,615 --> 01:23:08,015 I also, 1869 01:23:08,376 --> 01:23:09,175 I passed in Anthropic 1870 01:23:09,175 --> 01:23:10,135 because they were too woke. 1871 01:23:10,135 --> 01:23:11,955 They were pretty small at the time. 1872 01:23:11,955 --> 01:23:13,255 Well, that's the kind of companies 1873 01:23:13,255 --> 01:23:13,675 that go through 1874 01:23:13,675 --> 01:23:14,395 boundaries you should know. 1875 01:23:15,395 --> 01:23:16,115 By the way, 1876 01:23:17,315 --> 01:23:18,935 Odd in the series. 1877 01:23:18,935 --> 01:23:19,575 You don't like Tarot. 1878 01:23:19,876 --> 01:23:21,415 No, I have no problem with Tarot. 1879 01:23:21,555 --> 01:23:22,715 I think Vigia doesn't like Tarot. 1880 01:23:23,275 --> 01:23:23,855 And therefore, 1881 01:23:24,135 --> 01:23:25,135 Sprite doesn't like Tarot. 1882 01:23:25,315 --> 01:23:25,815 No, no, no. 1883 01:23:25,876 --> 01:23:27,015 I wanted to get back to that. 1884 01:23:27,015 --> 01:23:28,415 29.3 billion. 1885 01:23:28,475 --> 01:23:29,255 put them down today. 1886 01:23:29,455 --> 01:23:29,695 All right. 1887 01:23:30,515 --> 01:23:31,075 Seems like a problem. 1888 01:23:31,075 --> 01:23:32,835 I don't know, maybe Steve's got some inside intel. 1889 01:23:33,035 --> 01:23:34,675 This is Silicon Valley insider here. 1890 01:23:34,876 --> 01:23:36,415 Dude, I mean, just to be fair, 1891 01:23:36,575 --> 01:23:38,515 like Square is like a $60 billion company, right? 1892 01:23:39,415 --> 01:23:39,655 No. 1893 01:23:40,055 --> 01:23:40,615 What is Square now? 1894 01:23:40,675 --> 01:23:40,975 Less. 1895 01:23:41,815 --> 01:23:42,215 Less? 1896 01:23:42,215 --> 01:23:43,215 $38 billion. 1897 01:23:43,915 --> 01:23:48,215 Dude, if Cursor is raising its Square valuations. 1898 01:23:48,835 --> 01:23:51,215 Well, like Circle's worth like way more than Lockett. 1899 01:23:51,435 --> 01:23:51,495 Yeah. 1900 01:23:51,995 --> 01:23:53,335 I'm not judging you. 1901 01:23:53,435 --> 01:23:54,135 I understand my company now. 1902 01:23:54,135 --> 01:23:55,535 I wanted to get to someone's question. 1903 01:23:55,535 --> 01:23:59,055 How is the custody handled when it lands in the app? 1904 01:23:59,376 --> 01:24:00,715 Is that factored? 1905 01:24:01,795 --> 01:24:07,495 Or is this more of a transport and the app handles the storage routing after? 1906 01:24:08,035 --> 01:24:13,395 So MDK is based on Lightning Development Kit, which my team creates. 1907 01:24:13,415 --> 01:24:13,895 Who works on that? 1908 01:24:14,915 --> 01:24:20,415 But my understanding of MDK, each customer is using it. 1909 01:24:20,415 --> 01:24:23,715 So if I were a Vibe coder using it to handle my payments, 1910 01:24:24,175 --> 01:24:27,855 I have my own keys and my own node and my own channels. 1911 01:24:29,395 --> 01:24:30,975 MDK manages that for me, 1912 01:24:31,315 --> 01:24:36,015 but I'm the only one that has authentication 1913 01:24:36,015 --> 01:24:38,915 and access to that node and the keys. 1914 01:24:38,915 --> 01:24:40,655 So he has that number to live in. 1915 01:24:40,935 --> 01:24:43,575 I think it is run in the cloud. 1916 01:24:44,615 --> 01:24:45,755 Well, he calls it, 1917 01:24:45,876 --> 01:24:49,575 and I, coming from not being deep in developer land, 1918 01:24:49,575 --> 01:24:51,935 serverless. And my question was, 1919 01:24:52,035 --> 01:24:53,815 well, then where is it running? And apparently 1920 01:24:53,815 --> 01:24:55,515 what serverless actually means is 1921 01:24:55,515 --> 01:24:56,876 server, but on demand. 1922 01:24:57,455 --> 01:24:59,895 Yeah. I mean, marketing for like 1923 01:24:59,895 --> 01:25:01,855 you don't have to set up. I'm not saying that's a big problem. 1924 01:25:01,995 --> 01:25:03,635 You don't have to set up your own server. I think 1925 01:25:03,635 --> 01:25:04,975 that's the implication there. 1926 01:25:05,455 --> 01:25:07,555 The other thing we should talk about are 1927 01:25:07,555 --> 01:25:09,075 the fees. Because I saw 1928 01:25:09,075 --> 01:25:12,015 one Twitter pundit 1929 01:25:12,015 --> 01:25:13,695 saying, oh, you charge 1930 01:25:13,695 --> 01:25:15,855 2%? Because that's like 1931 01:25:15,855 --> 01:25:16,495 Oh, yeah. 1932 01:25:16,495 --> 01:25:17,235 you know 1933 01:25:17,235 --> 01:25:17,935 that's like 1934 01:25:17,935 --> 01:25:18,876 you know 1935 01:25:18,876 --> 01:25:19,455 is it more 1936 01:25:19,455 --> 01:25:20,675 or is that good or bad 1937 01:25:20,675 --> 01:25:21,495 or is it more or less 1938 01:25:21,495 --> 01:25:22,115 well it depends on your 1939 01:25:22,115 --> 01:25:23,035 frame of reference right 1940 01:25:23,035 --> 01:25:25,155 so if it's compared to 1941 01:25:25,155 --> 01:25:26,095 Square 1942 01:25:26,095 --> 01:25:27,095 which just said 1943 01:25:27,095 --> 01:25:27,775 0% 1944 01:25:27,775 --> 01:25:28,975 until 2027 1945 01:25:28,975 --> 01:25:29,895 and then 1% 1946 01:25:29,895 --> 01:25:30,355 thereafter 1947 01:25:30,355 --> 01:25:31,555 well it's more 1948 01:25:31,555 --> 01:25:32,876 or if you look at 1949 01:25:32,876 --> 01:25:33,655 but Square doesn't have 1950 01:25:33,655 --> 01:25:34,175 like an API 1951 01:25:34,175 --> 01:25:34,695 exactly 1952 01:25:34,695 --> 01:25:35,515 so it's 1953 01:25:35,515 --> 01:25:36,415 that's an Apple 1954 01:25:36,415 --> 01:25:37,855 or in just comparison 1955 01:25:37,855 --> 01:25:39,795 why doesn't Square do that 1956 01:25:39,795 --> 01:25:40,555 and then 1957 01:25:40,555 --> 01:25:41,595 why doesn't Square 1958 01:25:41,595 --> 01:25:41,815 like a merchant 1959 01:25:41,815 --> 01:25:43,315 like TOS system 1960 01:25:43,315 --> 01:25:44,275 why not have like 1961 01:25:44,275 --> 01:25:44,995 an API 1962 01:25:44,995 --> 01:25:46,095 like online payments 1963 01:25:46,495 --> 01:25:48,215 Yeah, well, I mean... 1964 01:25:48,215 --> 01:25:49,635 Why doesn't Google build a social network? 1965 01:25:49,635 --> 01:25:51,115 I know, right? 1966 01:25:51,275 --> 01:25:55,755 I think Block has made a weak attempt in the past at that, 1967 01:25:55,915 --> 01:25:59,095 but Stripe is formidable there. 1968 01:26:00,155 --> 01:26:01,235 That's Nick's opportunity. 1969 01:26:01,475 --> 01:26:03,955 But maybe that's a growth opportunity for Block in the future. 1970 01:26:04,315 --> 01:26:09,715 But in any case, I think if you look at the fees 1971 01:26:09,715 --> 01:26:12,575 that Stripe and other existing players charge, 1972 01:26:12,755 --> 01:26:14,015 it's 3-4%. 1973 01:26:14,015 --> 01:26:17,335 So from that perspective, it's cheaper. 1974 01:26:17,915 --> 01:26:19,195 And I think a lot of people, 1975 01:26:19,376 --> 01:26:20,415 there's so many people in the world 1976 01:26:20,415 --> 01:26:21,615 who can build things 1977 01:26:21,615 --> 01:26:23,376 who are locked out of that system. 1978 01:26:23,595 --> 01:26:24,855 That's not like a trivial rounding 1979 01:26:24,855 --> 01:26:26,735 or that's like a big part of humanity. 1980 01:26:26,935 --> 01:26:29,595 So I think even if it were 5%, 1981 01:26:29,595 --> 01:26:30,495 they might find it valuable 1982 01:26:30,495 --> 01:26:31,675 compared to the fact 1983 01:26:31,675 --> 01:26:33,015 they can't get anything from Stripe. 1984 01:26:33,135 --> 01:26:35,455 Now, it's healthy competition. 1985 01:26:35,695 --> 01:26:37,615 Like I think Lexi is a good solution 1986 01:26:37,615 --> 01:26:40,475 that touches on thematically similar Stripe, 1987 01:26:40,595 --> 01:26:42,075 or sorry, Spark, 1988 01:26:42,075 --> 01:26:44,255 touches on some similar theme. 1989 01:26:44,395 --> 01:26:47,455 So my point of talking about cursor evaluation 1990 01:26:47,455 --> 01:26:50,455 is not to say it's the right one or the wrong one. 1991 01:26:50,495 --> 01:26:51,975 I'm saying you just said that Replit 1992 01:26:51,975 --> 01:26:52,955 is the winner of Vibe Coding. 1993 01:26:53,035 --> 01:26:54,415 I'm saying there's a $30 billion company 1994 01:26:54,415 --> 01:26:55,455 you didn't think is the winner. 1995 01:26:55,455 --> 01:27:00,175 So I think this is similarly such a gargantuan market 1996 01:27:00,175 --> 01:27:05,835 that you could have an MDK and a Lexi and a Spark 1997 01:27:05,835 --> 01:27:07,935 could all independently be successful. 1998 01:27:07,935 --> 01:27:08,515 They're all going to be big companies. 1999 01:27:08,635 --> 01:27:08,955 I agree. 2000 01:27:09,155 --> 01:27:09,735 In their own right, 2001 01:27:09,735 --> 01:27:12,455 but they just end up serving different niches. 2002 01:27:12,615 --> 01:27:13,255 And so... 2003 01:27:13,255 --> 01:27:14,615 And I think it's also important to remember, 2004 01:27:14,775 --> 01:27:17,175 like I remember someone making this claim 2005 01:27:17,175 --> 01:27:18,895 that like a decade ago, 2006 01:27:18,995 --> 01:27:21,355 people all underestimated how big the... 2007 01:27:21,355 --> 01:27:23,135 Steve's laughing, I don't know what that means. 2008 01:27:23,415 --> 01:27:25,695 How big markets are when you expose it to the internet. 2009 01:27:25,895 --> 01:27:27,615 Like basically I think the TLDR is just like 2010 01:27:27,615 --> 01:27:29,235 the economic pie, number one, is not fixed. 2011 01:27:29,315 --> 01:27:30,415 Number two, when you expose it to the internet, 2012 01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:31,295 it's a lot bigger than you think. 2013 01:27:31,355 --> 01:27:32,195 There's gonna be a lot of winners 2014 01:27:32,195 --> 01:27:35,655 like the fact that Braintree, PayPal, Stripe, Block, 2015 01:27:35,755 --> 01:27:37,115 like all these companies are like 2016 01:27:37,115 --> 01:27:38,535 extremely successful companies. 2017 01:27:38,535 --> 01:27:40,315 like there's a lot of opportunity 2018 01:27:40,315 --> 01:27:41,855 if we're writing a thesis with Bitcoin. 2019 01:27:42,415 --> 01:27:44,455 So it's like super, super, super early. 2020 01:27:44,815 --> 01:27:47,495 So Matt is now throwing down 2021 01:27:47,495 --> 01:27:50,335 reference links to sources. 2022 01:27:50,595 --> 01:27:51,355 He's brought the receipts. 2023 01:27:51,975 --> 01:27:55,335 But also it looks like it's dated November 13th. 2024 01:27:55,335 --> 01:27:57,015 Oh, that was like a week. 2025 01:27:57,215 --> 01:27:57,715 That's a week. 2026 01:27:57,895 --> 01:27:59,635 What about their raise two days later? 2027 01:28:01,255 --> 01:28:03,235 They're only valued at $29 million. 2028 01:28:03,415 --> 01:28:03,876 Only $29 million. 2029 01:28:04,455 --> 01:28:06,255 I was even overestimating at $30 million. 2030 01:28:06,555 --> 01:28:07,555 Seems like a good deal. 2031 01:28:08,535 --> 01:28:10,435 although I will say 2032 01:28:10,435 --> 01:28:11,275 I mean I think about this 2033 01:28:11,275 --> 01:28:12,315 like are we even going to have 2034 01:28:12,315 --> 01:28:13,355 like IDEs in the future 2035 01:28:13,355 --> 01:28:14,376 like the thing I'm much more 2036 01:28:14,376 --> 01:28:14,876 interested in is like 2037 01:28:14,876 --> 01:28:15,435 what happens 2038 01:28:15,435 --> 01:28:16,955 and we should also give a shout out 2039 01:28:16,955 --> 01:28:17,275 you know 2040 01:28:17,275 --> 01:28:18,095 I guess we don't have 2041 01:28:18,095 --> 01:28:18,755 a lot of time left 2042 01:28:18,755 --> 01:28:19,755 but we had the opportunity 2043 01:28:19,755 --> 01:28:21,475 to jam with some folks 2044 01:28:21,475 --> 01:28:22,155 that we all like 2045 01:28:22,155 --> 01:28:22,675 like Pablo 2046 01:28:22,675 --> 01:28:23,615 and I 2047 01:28:23,615 --> 01:28:24,275 well by the way 2048 01:28:24,275 --> 01:28:25,775 shit we're running out of time 2049 01:28:25,775 --> 01:28:27,035 but I have a big topic 2050 01:28:27,035 --> 01:28:27,875 I want to talk about 2051 01:28:27,875 --> 01:28:28,835 maybe I'll tee it up 2052 01:28:28,835 --> 01:28:29,295 for the future 2053 01:28:29,295 --> 01:28:30,815 yeah I mean so 2054 01:28:30,815 --> 01:28:32,395 think about the future 2055 01:28:32,395 --> 01:28:33,135 of software development 2056 01:28:33,135 --> 01:28:34,155 and thinking about like 2057 01:28:34,155 --> 01:28:34,495 you know 2058 01:28:34,495 --> 01:28:35,955 where do we get from here 2059 01:28:35,955 --> 01:28:36,535 Pablo's got some 2060 01:28:36,535 --> 01:28:37,015 interesting ideas 2061 01:28:37,015 --> 01:28:37,675 we'll talk about it 2062 01:28:37,675 --> 01:28:38,195 on a future show 2063 01:28:38,195 --> 01:28:41,595 one thing I want to tee up and maybe we can have a longer conversation next week because it's very 2064 01:28:41,595 --> 01:28:47,976 important. You know, we were all at sort of an AI, open source-y, freedom-y thing. And the one 2065 01:28:47,976 --> 01:28:52,835 thing that stuck with me that I am a little concerned on was in a conversation with Cody. 2066 01:28:53,315 --> 01:28:56,675 And Cody, you know, for those of you who don't know, is a Bitcoiner now at Repl. And he made a 2067 01:28:56,675 --> 01:29:00,995 really good point to me, which is, you know, and actually, Matt, I'm super glad you're listening. 2068 01:29:00,995 --> 01:29:07,415 This one is to you. I asked him, you know, how bullish are you on like making it easier to build 2069 01:29:07,415 --> 01:29:09,595 with Bitcoin and Nostra and Lightning Network. 2070 01:29:10,275 --> 01:29:12,495 And his point to me was a bit of an eye opener. 2071 01:29:13,335 --> 01:29:15,635 And his point was, I don't know how easy it really is 2072 01:29:15,635 --> 01:29:17,275 to build with like a Nostra app in Repl. 2073 01:29:17,335 --> 01:29:18,695 Today, I know Matt has done this. 2074 01:29:18,815 --> 01:29:20,995 And so I would encourage, you know, Matt in particular, 2075 01:29:21,375 --> 01:29:23,695 you are a great hope here to make sure 2076 01:29:23,695 --> 01:29:25,335 we don't become irrelevant and die. 2077 01:29:25,895 --> 01:29:28,355 But his point to me was, if you're using Replit, 2078 01:29:28,435 --> 01:29:30,455 and let's assume Replit, that was our first answer 2079 01:29:30,455 --> 01:29:31,635 for what was the Vibe Coding Open, right? 2080 01:29:31,675 --> 01:29:33,015 So a lot of people are using Replit. 2081 01:29:33,575 --> 01:29:36,035 And if you try and build a Lightning Network 2082 01:29:36,035 --> 01:29:38,875 or certainly a Cashew or a Noster app today, 2083 01:29:39,555 --> 01:29:42,035 his point to me was the models they're using on the back, 2084 01:29:42,055 --> 01:29:42,815 and I don't know what it is. 2085 01:29:42,855 --> 01:29:44,355 I assume it's Claude, but who knows? 2086 01:29:44,935 --> 01:29:46,215 Maybe it's Elk, maybe it's not. 2087 01:29:46,275 --> 01:29:46,615 I don't know. 2088 01:29:47,095 --> 01:29:49,415 But his point was those base models 2089 01:29:49,415 --> 01:29:53,335 are trained on the past internet, right? 2090 01:29:53,335 --> 01:29:55,135 That's how LLMs work. 2091 01:29:56,115 --> 01:29:56,976 Next token prediction. 2092 01:29:57,735 --> 01:30:01,075 And his point was there were not enough examples 2093 01:30:01,075 --> 01:30:05,155 in the old training set of Noster code for sure. 2094 01:30:05,155 --> 01:30:07,235 Well, certainly something like Cache-A-Code. 2095 01:30:07,355 --> 01:30:10,255 Nostr maybe, depending on when the last models, 2096 01:30:10,455 --> 01:30:12,235 like the big last training rounds got done, 2097 01:30:12,555 --> 01:30:13,175 is on the edge. 2098 01:30:13,275 --> 01:30:14,135 Maybe there's enough Nostr. 2099 01:30:14,215 --> 01:30:15,215 There's certainly enough Bitcoin data. 2100 01:30:15,295 --> 01:30:15,675 That's good. 2101 01:30:15,995 --> 01:30:17,055 Maybe enough Lightning. 2102 01:30:17,535 --> 01:30:21,315 But his point was, you know, in the future, 2103 01:30:22,035 --> 01:30:25,976 what starts as a very tiny edge can quickly become huge. 2104 01:30:26,476 --> 01:30:29,215 And so we were talking in the context of, you know, 2105 01:30:29,255 --> 01:30:31,015 Pablo's like, oh, Rust is in this and Rust is in that. 2106 01:30:31,095 --> 01:30:32,235 And he was like, no, Python's one. 2107 01:30:32,235 --> 01:30:53,035 And the point was because there was so much more Python that in the future, as new models get trained primarily on synthetic data, that synthetic data, it's going to basically take existing edges, power feedback loops so that like, oh, there's 10% more Python that quickly becomes 10,000% more than GPT-5, which is trained off the old data. 2108 01:30:53,035 --> 01:30:58,635 to me, this was a bit of an eye opener where it's like, shit, there will always be ways to feed in 2109 01:30:58,635 --> 01:31:02,115 context for things like lightning or Nostra payments. Some of the stuff Pablo is thinking 2110 01:31:02,115 --> 01:31:07,135 about, but defaults matter. I think if I had one, if I had one episode title, I'll shoot defaults 2111 01:31:07,135 --> 01:31:11,035 matter. And the reason this is what we're talking about. Like GitHub is not for normies like yet. 2112 01:31:11,395 --> 01:31:18,435 Like if I'm a normal person and I just say, build me an app and accept payments. If 98% of that just 2113 01:31:18,435 --> 01:31:22,615 goes to, Oh, Stripe, that's what we've seen every example of. Yes. You can always go and add in 2114 01:31:22,615 --> 01:31:23,895 Bitcoin payments, build your own thing. 2115 01:31:24,395 --> 01:31:26,515 But if the default is already one, like... 2116 01:31:26,515 --> 01:31:28,935 This actually doesn't worry me because I think... 2117 01:31:28,935 --> 01:31:29,215 Please. 2118 01:31:29,415 --> 01:31:33,795 Yeah, I think if you say, hey, build me payments, 2119 01:31:34,895 --> 01:31:38,555 and Stripe is a good solution, and it integrates, 2120 01:31:38,635 --> 01:31:41,415 and I think Repl just announced that they have a nice Stripe integration now. 2121 01:31:41,895 --> 01:31:45,295 So if it works, then why should there be a new solution? 2122 01:31:45,595 --> 01:31:47,295 Like the point of these new technologies... 2123 01:31:47,295 --> 01:31:48,815 Because we want to take down the banking cartels. 2124 01:31:49,455 --> 01:31:51,255 So if you want to, you slide around about way though. 2125 01:31:51,255 --> 01:31:56,175 But let's say, what are the ramifications of that? 2126 01:31:56,255 --> 01:31:58,155 The fees are high, you're getting gouged or whatever, 2127 01:31:58,295 --> 01:32:00,155 then your prompt to the AI should be like, 2128 01:32:00,255 --> 01:32:03,115 add payments less than X percent. 2129 01:32:03,735 --> 01:32:05,175 And then it has to find another solution. 2130 01:32:05,875 --> 01:32:09,435 Or find me ad payments that are permissionless. 2131 01:32:09,675 --> 01:32:10,435 It doesn't just integrate Stripe. 2132 01:32:10,575 --> 01:32:12,755 It says, here, we've integrated Stripe. 2133 01:32:12,855 --> 01:32:14,275 Now put in your Stripe credentials. 2134 01:32:14,695 --> 01:32:16,615 Go to the website and sign up for Stripe. 2135 01:32:16,755 --> 01:32:18,875 And now you KYC, KYB, and then you find, 2136 01:32:18,915 --> 01:32:20,215 oh, actually Stripe won't support me. 2137 01:32:20,215 --> 01:32:24,895 okay come up with another solution so i think there's two concerns there yes but i think number 2138 01:32:24,895 --> 01:32:29,515 one most people don't even understand what fees are and so like again going back like to alex's 2139 01:32:29,515 --> 01:32:33,275 point he was the guy that raised this question for us on twitter again to him and to everyone 2140 01:32:33,275 --> 01:32:37,615 deep in bitcoin i would say like you have to see what normies are doing two percent people don't 2141 01:32:37,615 --> 01:32:41,335 even know the difference between one percent two percent three percent like that's the reality the 2142 01:32:41,335 --> 01:32:44,755 people that are like no but you can run your own node for so much cheaper it's like dude you're in 2143 01:32:44,755 --> 01:32:46,875 0.00001% of humans. 2144 01:32:47,335 --> 01:32:49,055 And so what I'm concerned about is defaults. 2145 01:32:49,075 --> 01:32:52,075 I'm like, yes, you always could have that right to change. 2146 01:32:52,155 --> 01:32:54,015 And to your point, if you're someone in Africa 2147 01:32:54,015 --> 01:32:55,375 that they don't support, great. 2148 01:32:55,755 --> 01:32:58,976 But like, it would be a shame if like the vast majority 2149 01:32:58,976 --> 01:33:01,775 of the GDP pie defaults to Stripe, 2150 01:33:01,835 --> 01:33:02,655 never even thinks about it. 2151 01:33:02,675 --> 01:33:04,435 And Bitcoin just becomes a tool for the renegades. 2152 01:33:05,375 --> 01:33:08,015 But that's the way you become dominant 2153 01:33:08,015 --> 01:33:10,155 is you win at the people who are desperately 2154 01:33:10,155 --> 01:33:12,415 in need of a solution and they're super underserved. 2155 01:33:12,575 --> 01:33:13,955 You don't compete with the giant. 2156 01:33:13,955 --> 01:33:15,395 you let the giant be the giant, 2157 01:33:15,755 --> 01:33:17,755 and you compete with the people in Africa trying to do it, 2158 01:33:17,795 --> 01:33:18,635 people in India trying to do it, 2159 01:33:18,655 --> 01:33:20,115 people building tarot cards. 2160 01:33:20,255 --> 01:33:22,835 I would have agreed with you 100% pre-AI, 2161 01:33:23,235 --> 01:33:24,515 but what I think has changed 2162 01:33:24,515 --> 01:33:26,755 and I think we need to be aware of, 2163 01:33:26,795 --> 01:33:27,935 not have our heads in the sand, 2164 01:33:28,115 --> 01:33:30,155 is if you really are AGI pill, 2165 01:33:30,255 --> 01:33:31,655 that you believe in all this takeoff stuff, 2166 01:33:31,755 --> 01:33:32,895 and I think Elon's already said 2167 01:33:32,895 --> 01:33:34,395 Grok 5 is going to be trained off 2168 01:33:34,395 --> 01:33:36,415 100% synthetic data from Grok 4. 2169 01:33:37,035 --> 01:33:39,235 What looked like maybe just like, 2170 01:33:39,295 --> 01:33:40,435 oh, it's a lead that we could like, 2171 01:33:40,476 --> 01:33:41,315 yeah, like Stripe, 2172 01:33:41,355 --> 01:33:42,875 it could be outflanked to the left and right, 2173 01:33:42,875 --> 01:33:46,755 if 10,000% more data gets generated, 2174 01:33:46,935 --> 01:33:48,835 it's going to get harder and harder and harder 2175 01:33:48,835 --> 01:33:50,755 over time is my concern to flank them. 2176 01:33:50,995 --> 01:33:52,175 Another potential dynamic, 2177 01:33:52,315 --> 01:33:54,976 I'm listening to the latest, 2178 01:33:55,355 --> 01:33:57,235 is it Dorcasch podcast 2179 01:33:57,235 --> 01:33:59,095 with Andre Karpathy? 2180 01:33:59,675 --> 01:34:00,195 Karpathy? 2181 01:34:00,435 --> 01:34:01,035 Karpathy, yeah. 2182 01:34:01,075 --> 01:34:01,435 Karpathy. 2183 01:34:02,075 --> 01:34:02,515 Really good. 2184 01:34:02,895 --> 01:34:05,115 I love learning from him on AI. 2185 01:34:05,675 --> 01:34:06,155 So at one point, 2186 01:34:06,155 --> 01:34:11,795 he believes that there's too much, 2187 01:34:11,795 --> 01:34:14,675 that the models are being trained on too much data. 2188 01:34:15,175 --> 01:34:16,895 There's an overfitting problem. 2189 01:34:17,315 --> 01:34:20,835 So he actually predicts that to gain more intelligence, 2190 01:34:21,415 --> 01:34:22,855 they should be trained on less data. 2191 01:34:23,055 --> 01:34:25,115 So they actually have to think on their feet more. 2192 01:34:26,476 --> 01:34:29,055 So to the degree that that happens, 2193 01:34:29,395 --> 01:34:30,935 then that would lessen that concern. 2194 01:34:31,495 --> 01:34:33,935 I do think it's something that I know we've talked about in the past. 2195 01:34:34,035 --> 01:34:36,595 We've talked about ideas for future summits around digital life 2196 01:34:36,595 --> 01:34:39,075 and open source AI and getting more of the AI 2197 01:34:39,075 --> 01:34:41,235 and open source community working with us here at PB. 2198 01:34:41,795 --> 01:34:43,095 But I do think it's something that, 2199 01:34:43,215 --> 01:34:44,435 I hope that's right. 2200 01:34:44,615 --> 01:34:44,935 I don't know. 2201 01:34:44,976 --> 01:34:45,795 I don't really have an opinion, 2202 01:34:45,955 --> 01:34:48,055 but we should be figuring out 2203 01:34:48,055 --> 01:34:48,976 how do we make sure 2204 01:34:48,976 --> 01:34:50,295 that we're not bringing sticks 2205 01:34:50,295 --> 01:34:52,476 to a nuclear weapon fight. 2206 01:34:53,275 --> 01:34:55,775 And I will say it opened my eyes 2207 01:34:55,775 --> 01:34:56,895 to if takeoff happens 2208 01:34:56,895 --> 01:34:57,755 and we're not in the takeoff, 2209 01:34:57,815 --> 01:34:58,235 it's concerning. 2210 01:34:59,555 --> 01:35:00,275 And by the way, 2211 01:35:00,395 --> 01:35:01,015 I just want to shout out, 2212 01:35:01,015 --> 01:35:02,335 I don't know who Maxwell's Equations is, 2213 01:35:02,335 --> 01:35:04,835 but Tyranny of the Default by Steve Gibson. 2214 01:35:04,976 --> 01:35:05,895 I don't know who Steve Gibson is, 2215 01:35:06,075 --> 01:35:06,995 but is that the sci-fi album? 2216 01:35:06,995 --> 01:35:07,455 Sci-fi, I think. 2217 01:35:07,476 --> 01:35:07,815 Yeah, yeah. 2218 01:35:08,155 --> 01:35:09,535 Then I should check that out. 2219 01:35:09,635 --> 01:35:10,955 Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. 2220 01:35:10,955 --> 01:35:14,195 It's not that like, it's not that like the people that are really into it. 2221 01:35:14,233 --> 01:35:18,533 you know the autists and the freedom fighters are going to be fine but like it's going to be a dark 2222 01:35:18,533 --> 01:35:23,953 world if um i don't know the default is strike yeah i just i think you can't just compete on 2223 01:35:23,953 --> 01:35:29,093 price and ideology you have to compete on it's just better i agree but my point is that's still 2224 01:35:29,093 --> 01:35:34,993 thinking from like pre pre-model takeoff i think i think the models if they're truly intelligent 2225 01:35:34,993 --> 01:35:39,713 they will find the thing that's better i don't think they're truly intelligent yeah so that's 2226 01:35:39,713 --> 01:35:43,193 i mean they're parents yeah i i think so but i think there's still a lot of development 2227 01:35:43,193 --> 01:35:45,713 happening and different, like, the LLM 2228 01:35:45,713 --> 01:35:47,553 may not be the final form of AI. 2229 01:35:47,913 --> 01:35:49,153 So that, that... 2230 01:35:49,153 --> 01:35:51,493 We should continue this conversation. 2231 01:35:51,693 --> 01:35:53,593 This is a big... After Thanksgiving. 2232 01:35:54,193 --> 01:35:55,313 We should go get lunch. 2233 01:35:56,593 --> 01:35:58,753 Good chat, guys. 2234 01:35:58,813 --> 01:35:59,133 Good chat. 2235 01:35:59,373 --> 01:36:00,913 Hey, glad we're all alive. 2236 01:36:01,373 --> 01:36:02,133 All live, yes. 2237 01:36:02,873 --> 01:36:03,993 Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. 2238 01:36:03,993 --> 01:36:05,813 Happy Thanksgiving, and we'll see you two weeks out. 2239 01:36:06,073 --> 01:36:06,733 All right, bye-bye.