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Oh, welcome to another edition of PBJ.

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How are you guys doing?

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Good.

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How are you?

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It's Friday.

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We got nothing to talk about.

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Another morning week.

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Nothing to talk about.

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I'm grateful.

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You guys know I had some stuff going on the last couple weeks.

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Feeling a lot better today.

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Okay.

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Good to hear.

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It sounds like you might have a direction to improve the situation.

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We do.

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A couple directions.

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Is this about the ED?

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I wasn't going to talk about your issue, DK.

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Sorry.

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On air.

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you said you have a gift for us

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he's just J for the EV

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he's an Elonator

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what's the

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oh you said EV

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yeah

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I thought you said EV

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DK is pretty wild enough

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alright we have lots to talk about today

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blood flow

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do we need to do a basketball

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segment or are you

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no

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I'm not wearing any Iowa State

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it's over

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alright

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well it's unfortunate

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well every team loses

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except for one

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and my team lost

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but you made it far

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it was a good season

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could be worse

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I like loyal to the soil

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yeah that's right

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well I mean

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I still gotta represent Memphis

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Steve sent me stuff

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that Memphis is apparently

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the most hood city in the country

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and you know

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I'm not a Memphis hater

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I'm just the NBA players

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are Memphis haters

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I just randomly saw that

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as I told DK

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I am loyal to the soil

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but I can also admit

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Memphis is

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it's pretty good

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I like that phrase

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yeah

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but

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oh boy

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so much to talk about today

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do you want to go

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just hit them in order

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or what's

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what's burning on your

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what's top of mind

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let's talk about

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what's exciting right now

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well

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maybe the least exciting one

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no

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Bitcoin

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Bitcoin core

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privacy

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I could

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I could

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I could describe that

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really quick

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what's top of mind for you

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we're wilding out over here

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we can do that

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another show if you want.

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How about this? Everybody's talking about this

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Bitcoin, quantum, like the

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Google thing. Everybody's asking me about it.

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I haven't studied any

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of the updates since the quantum summit

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a year ago. So I don't know.

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Has anything substantially changed since then?

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Well, for those that

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didn't see, there's another

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wave of discussion and

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drama around quantum and Bitcoin this

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past week because of

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Google dropped a paper

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which we can talk about a little bit

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and then

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there was another

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startup, I forget the name of it

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but

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in collaboration with Caltech

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announcing

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advances

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with a different approach to quantum computing

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neutral atom technology or something

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far beyond my understanding

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but those two

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both dropped this week

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and it just

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causes a lot of hysteria

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So I'll try to give my take and what I think is a balanced take on this.

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I think the simplest way to explain the Google paper,

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because the Google paper claims that there's a 20x performance improvement

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in the algorithm to break ECC and break Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

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And just to be clear, when Steve's saying elliptic curve cryptography,

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he's talking about signatures for Bitcoin.

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because there's different kinds of cryptography for different things.

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So that sounds substantial.

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They also released it in a clever,

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probably responsible way, clever way,

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definitely good marketing.

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So some combination of all those.

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And they did not reveal the details,

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but they did a zero-knowledge proof

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to prove that they have the details.

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So that was kind of interesting.

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But it definitely spices.

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Do you know how that worked?

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I saw that in the headlines, but I didn't.

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was there much about how that actually worked?

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That's how our resident DKB expert described it.

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I didn't think they were advanced enough to that,

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so no idea.

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I didn't read the details.

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But so in any case,

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oh, interestingly,

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the lead person author for that paper

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is Hartman Nevin,

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who I worked closely with at Google long ago.

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He and I worked on Wingman together,

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which is the code name for Google Glass.

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sounds like someone that should stop by

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a procedure of bitcoin

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I can reach out to them

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in any case

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a 20x speed up

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that sounds substantial

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and let's just assume that claim is

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true

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it's very material

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so I don't think we should

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dismiss this announcement

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but I think the best framing

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that I've heard on it

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is n-1

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Yes, you cryptic.

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I told you that, but I didn't explain it to you,

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so I'll explain it to you now.

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Where N can be anything.

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N is the number of years

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before we have a cryptographically relevant quantum computer.

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And as we've discussed and people have heard,

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there's a wide range of views there

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from like two years to five years to 15, 50 are impossible.

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So, right.

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And I certainly don't know,

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And I really don't think anyone knows.

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We just have to keep evaluating each new announcement

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or piece of progress to understand

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what probability we might assign to that.

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But if N minus one, just because, you know,

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if let's say 10 years from now,

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there is a cryptographically relevant computer

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that can break Bitcoin keys

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and it takes a year to crack one key,

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for that computer,

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then this announcement

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or this breakthrough

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would shrink that to two and a half weeks or so,

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20 times faster.

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So kind of N minus one.

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So in the grand scheme of things,

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I don't think it changes much.

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Now, if every week Google announces a 20x speedup

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and then it gets it down to just one qubit

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is needed to break Bitcoin,

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and then that's a different story.

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So I don't think we dismissed this,

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but some of the news headlines were outrageous,

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saying it's imminent.

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And I want to just pause on that one point.

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I mean, I think obviously everything should be balanced.

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No one's saying FUD or freak out.

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And I do think we should also talk a lot

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about the solutions that are being developed

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because that to me is really exciting.

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But I do think one thing that is a little concerning to me

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is even if you view this,

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I mean, it's obviously a potentially high-impact scenario.

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even if you view it as low likelihood or far out. I think one thing in the Bitcoin community

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in general that's changing, thankfully, but as I feel like people have not been AGI-pilled enough

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or like AI-pilled in general enough. And so, you know, when you have the brightest minds in the

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world with access to the best AI in the world at places like Google, we don't really know,

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like we have multiple S-curves happening at once and we don't know how compounding S-curves are

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going to result in faster scientific breakthroughs. So I think that that's one thing I just really

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have not liked about the quantum discourse. Not saying it's possible, not possible. That's

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clearly above my pay grade. But I don't think enough people are, you know, waiting that their

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past view of how these quantum developments or the rate of progress worked is potentially

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completely unlinked with the future as AI gets a lot better. Yeah, I mean, I often bring to mind

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Have you guys read the famous Kurzweil book?

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Which one?

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Singularity is Near?

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I mean, a long time ago.

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Yeah, a long time ago.

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I think I read it 20-something years ago.

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But it talked, I remember, about in the 90s,

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they were trying to predict how long it would take to map a single human genome.

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And I think all the experts said it was 10 or 15 years or something.

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And then I think they solved it in three or four years.

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Right.

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And that's not to say that we should be more paranoid or respond to all this,

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But just that I think to double down on what you're saying is the S-curves and the compounding nature of how these technologies converge and discover new things may not be easy for us to sort of project out.

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Exactly.

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So it doesn't mean let's all panic, but it does mean like interesting to keep an eye on this stuff.

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And, you know, if it does turn out that there's a new announcement every few weeks, then, you know, pay more attention even.

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And I would be more, I would be very happy on many, many fronts.

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I don't think it's just for quantum.

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and more inclined to take seriously

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more, I guess, Bitcoin and quantum researchers

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who are also tracking heavily

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what's happening at the frontier labs

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and have a real sense,

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not just guessing,

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of how far along DeepMind and Anthropic actually are.

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I'd also, I mean,

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so I totally acknowledge the point you made, Max.

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It's interesting then to observe it in other fields,

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both physical hardware and then software.

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So like mapping genome and AI advancements,

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those are two things that,

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well, at least genome,

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it happened faster than thought.

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Genome, is that a French?

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Is it good?

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Oh, good.

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And then AI, you know,

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it's been promised forever,

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but then all of a sudden, boom, came out of the scene.

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But like fusion, like when is that going to happen?

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That's been also been right around the corner for decades.

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But maybe AI accelerates that.

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maybe next year is the year of fusion.

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We don't know.

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Quantum computers feels

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more like fusion to me

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because of the physics and

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the very hard engineering, physical

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hard engineering problems.

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But we'll see.

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I mean, all that, I think

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all that changes, I mean, even if you hold that belief

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like, oh, there's going to be this rapid

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change, it just changes

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your probability distribution

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might be different than someone else's.

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It

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If you don't take a super extreme view, I think one has to believe, yes, there should be development in a plan put in place, a plan for different scenarios.

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One where it does take 10 plus years in which that's a slow and steady plan and incorporates the latest advances of cryptography so we don't suffer too many drawbacks by upgrading.

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And then emergency plans too.

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if we're caught off guard and it does happen really quick

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so that we save Bitcoin.

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So I've talked about, real quick,

277
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,520
I've talked about maybe a few weeks ago

278
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,520
saying that PresidioBitcoin is putting together

279
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,160
like a 12-page report soon.

280
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:46,940
Which is very needed.

281
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:47,620
Two weeks.

282
00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:48,260
Yeah, I was about to say.

283
00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:49,580
How many more two weeks?

284
00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:51,420
We now hope to publish it next week.

285
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:52,680
Austin, where are you at?

286
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:53,480
I think it's really good.

287
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,040
I think it's a really balanced account

288
00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:01,460
and it covers like describing the risks,

289
00:11:01,460 --> 00:11:04,140
describing sort of where we're at,

290
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:05,260
a plan,

291
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:07,820
like these different plans

292
00:11:07,820 --> 00:11:08,700
for different scenarios.

293
00:11:09,620 --> 00:11:10,700
So I think it'll be good

294
00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:11,360
once it's published.

295
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:12,700
And I think we should cover

296
00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:15,100
also like all the different

297
00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:16,100
worst case scenarios

298
00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:16,820
and what that means

299
00:11:16,820 --> 00:11:17,740
and the potential solutions.

300
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:18,100
Because like,

301
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:18,960
just because I'm saying this,

302
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:19,960
I'm not saying we need to panic.

303
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:20,560
Like, you know,

304
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,120
there's a lot of different routes

305
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:22,580
this could go.

306
00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:23,940
The one thing I will say though

307
00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:25,360
is even though I'm more

308
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:26,900
AGI-Pill and concerned about this

309
00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:28,060
maybe than some people are,

310
00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:29,620
I also tend to agree

311
00:11:29,620 --> 00:11:30,300
with some stuff,

312
00:11:30,420 --> 00:11:30,680
I guess,

313
00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:35,780
Taylor has said in the past of like, look, you know, there's, I agree with him. There's always

314
00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:39,680
a risk of like, if you act too soon, then you end up, you know, messing up a system that doesn't

315
00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:43,860
need to get fixed. So I certainly balance those concerns. And I also agree with him that like,

316
00:11:44,220 --> 00:11:50,140
it does feel like in addition to the frontier labs, and I don't know who's tracking this super

317
00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:53,520
closely in addition to what they release in public, but like, it's also like, I would be

318
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,380
watching the most closely of like, what is DOD, NSA, like, what's the intelligence community saying?

319
00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:00,420
what is Apple saying

320
00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:01,800
like the big tech companies

321
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,460
that are actually tracking this closely

322
00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:05,580
and like super classified government divisions

323
00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:06,900
that's what I would be using

324
00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:07,680
at my like bellwether

325
00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,540
I agree that should be paid attention to

326
00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:11,860
but a couple caveats of that

327
00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:15,500
one like NIST has come out saying

328
00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:17,040
like all government agencies

329
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,300
have to upgrade by 2030, 2035

330
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:20,540
whatever things like that

331
00:12:20,540 --> 00:12:22,640
and at first blush

332
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,600
it might seem to imply

333
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,840
that that's when the government believes

334
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,240
there'll be CRQC, right?

335
00:12:31,380 --> 00:12:32,500
And Bitcoin could be broken.

336
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,520
But that does not imply that.

337
00:12:35,620 --> 00:12:36,900
Because, and same with Google,

338
00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:39,660
just announced that they've fast-tracked

339
00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:41,580
to 2029 as their target date,

340
00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:43,380
which is just two to three years away.

341
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,440
Was that an update from this week with that paper?

342
00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:47,880
Well, I think they, no, I think two weeks ago,

343
00:12:48,020 --> 00:12:49,140
but like right before this paper.

344
00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:50,940
So people are linking to like,

345
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:53,180
they accelerated to 2029,

346
00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:54,920
they're going to upgrade all Google stuff.

347
00:12:54,920 --> 00:13:01,160
then they drop a paper with a zero knowledge proof that doesn't reveal the actual 20x improvement

348
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,540
but both the government and Google

349
00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:09,760
there's different applications and some applications are you encrypt data

350
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,580
that's supposed to be private and 40 years from now you still want it to be private

351
00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:18,240
so if you encrypt it with technology today

352
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,140
that is broken in 40 years by a quantum computer it's no longer private

353
00:13:22,140 --> 00:13:31,800
So let's upgrade soon in three years, five, ten years, because we believe in 40 to 50 years there could very well be a quantum computer that can break the encryption.

354
00:13:32,060 --> 00:13:34,560
That's a different application than stealing your Bitcoin.

355
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:44,660
So you shouldn't just assume a 2029 deadline means that that's the date that Google believes or the government believes Bitcoin's going to be broken.

356
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:47,820
Yeah, and also the fact that Google is changing that deadline also.

357
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:49,740
I wouldn't put much stock in any number.

358
00:13:49,740 --> 00:13:57,640
The other point, and this is less valuable,

359
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,660
but it's a lot easier for Google to upgrade their systems.

360
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,720
It's a centralized company.

361
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,740
The CEO says do it.

362
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:07,380
They upgrade their systems.

363
00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:10,740
They don't need anyone's cooperation or input or consensus.

364
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,800
And that's the case with banks, governments, almost anything else.

365
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,020
So that doesn't give an excuse for Bitcoin not to be,

366
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,400
the Bitcoin ecosystem not to be thinking about it,

367
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,680
but it's just a big challenge Bitcoin has that others don't.

368
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,360
The other big challenge is that, you know,

369
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,000
with quantum-resistant cryptography,

370
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,260
the signatures are larger,

371
00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:36,720
it's more expensive to compute the signatures, etc.

372
00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:39,720
I mean, no one wants that extra cost,

373
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,200
but the cost to a scarce resource like the Bitcoin blockchain

374
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,120
is much more cost-sensitive

375
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,000
than a Google or a bank.

376
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,880
And I think it's worth mentioning one very positive side

377
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,700
is, you know, while,

378
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:57,180
and this is like my kind of general philosophy

379
00:14:57,180 --> 00:14:58,120
with all the AI stuff.

380
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,380
Whenever people doomerism, you know, go doomerism

381
00:15:00,380 --> 00:15:01,940
or like freak out or whatever, it's like, yes,

382
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,000
attackers now have access to AI

383
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,460
and can do some really fucked up stuff.

384
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,980
The good news is defenders also have access to AI

385
00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:11,440
and can play defense much faster than the past.

386
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,640
And so I was encouraged just looking a little bit more

387
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,020
into like Blockstream's research

388
00:15:16,020 --> 00:15:18,060
on their, I think, new quantum, I guess,

389
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,780
resistant hash-based signature scheme.

390
00:15:20,140 --> 00:15:22,060
It looks like those are getting a little bit

391
00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:24,200
thinner. I think it's still, is it two orders of magnitude

392
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,720
bigger or one order of magnitude bigger? Well, there's

393
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,860
Shrinks and Shrimps, I believe.

394
00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:30,080
I was thinking Shrinks. Shrinks was

395
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,980
from maybe one or two months ago. We briefly

396
00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:34,160
talked about it on the show, I think. And then Shrimps was just

397
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,360
the new one.

398
00:15:36,820 --> 00:15:38,060
They're actually...

399
00:15:38,060 --> 00:15:38,700
Kind of a bad name, though.

400
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:41,720
Yeah.

401
00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:45,180
They're

402
00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:47,720
They're very similar, but different,

403
00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:49,220
but complementary to each other.

404
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,280
So Shrinks is a something like

405
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,860
354-byte signature, I think.

406
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:58,440
The baseline here is a Schnorr signature

407
00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,940
in between today is 64 bytes.

408
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,480
So it's about five times bigger.

409
00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:03,980
Not bad.

410
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:05,540
If that's all you know, that sounds horrible,

411
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,580
but compared to the 100 or 1,000 times bigger signatures

412
00:16:08,580 --> 00:16:10,480
that most other solutions have,

413
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,080
it's 5x is amazing.

414
00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:13,800
It comes with a drawback, though,

415
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,780
and that you need, with that solution,

416
00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:19,020
you need state, you add state.

417
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,460
You need off-chain data that you need to retain

418
00:16:22,460 --> 00:16:26,680
in order to spend and use that signature,

419
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,780
which is not a showstopper, but it's a big drawback.

420
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,320
The new one that they just announced, Shrimps,

421
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,120
is around 2,500 bytes.

422
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:47,080
so it's about 40x over 64 or 8x worse than drinks.

423
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,600
It's stateless.

424
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,600
So I think the thinking by the authors is that

425
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,100
if you have a primary signing device

426
00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:01,760
with a key that is never going to be removed,

427
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,960
like maybe in an HSM or even your phone or BitKey or whatever,

428
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,600
that could use this more optimized version.

429
00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:11,740
And that's the happy path.

430
00:17:11,980 --> 00:17:13,480
That's like where you'd normally spend.

431
00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:15,520
And in the recovery scenario,

432
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,620
somehow that signing device fails

433
00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:18,920
or you lose it or whatever.

434
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,640
And now you have to access your backup.

435
00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:23,340
The backup in the recovery process

436
00:17:23,340 --> 00:17:25,480
would have the larger signature version.

437
00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:26,460
Seems like a great trade-off.

438
00:17:26,820 --> 00:17:27,540
It's a good trade-off.

439
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:28,920
And the reason for that,

440
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,880
why not just use the smaller signature everywhere?

441
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,080
I think retaining that metadata

442
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,180
and extracting it

443
00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:37,220
and transitioning it to another device

444
00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:40,180
is like a failure mode and tricky.

445
00:17:40,780 --> 00:17:42,960
So to avoid that, you could set it up this way.

446
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:45,900
But that's good because like in the 99% case,

447
00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:48,460
you get the smaller signatures

448
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:50,820
and in the recovery disaster scenario,

449
00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:52,740
you haven't lost your money,

450
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,480
but you are going to have to pay higher fees.

451
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,160
And for people trying to get an idea

452
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,080
of what's this difference in state,

453
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,580
would this be fair to sort of describe this

454
00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:01,840
as analogous to like a lightning node?

455
00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:03,400
Yeah, I mean, it has state.

456
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,560
so

457
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,040
if you want to keep

458
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:06,880
track of like

459
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:07,420
what your channels

460
00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:08,060
where they're balanced

461
00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:08,540
same with like

462
00:18:08,540 --> 00:18:09,620
a multi-sig device

463
00:18:09,620 --> 00:18:10,420
also has state

464
00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:11,140
that you need to

465
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:12,780
state beyond

466
00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:13,680
just the private key

467
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:14,080
yeah

468
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,080
the simplest form

469
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:15,540
of bitcoin

470
00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:16,340
all you need

471
00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:17,700
is this big number

472
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:18,600
that's it

473
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,640
but these

474
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:20,500
you know

475
00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:21,040
these other

476
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,180
whether it be

477
00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:22,600
lightning

478
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,540
or multi-sig

479
00:18:23,540 --> 00:18:23,920
or

480
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,480
shrinks

481
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:26,780
all these

482
00:18:26,780 --> 00:18:27,840
require additional

483
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:28,340
state

484
00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:28,660
yeah

485
00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:29,840
and that state

486
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:30,220
is

487
00:18:30,220 --> 00:18:30,840
would

488
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:31,340
in this

489
00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:32,260
if I understand right

490
00:18:32,260 --> 00:18:33,260
in this scenario

491
00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:35,880
So that state would be kept on the bit key

492
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,020
or kind of in a per-user basis.

493
00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:41,940
It wouldn't be like a single state held somewhere,

494
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,180
kind of replicas of state.

495
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:44,880
It's not on the blockchain.

496
00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:48,400
Not on the blockchain, but is there some other...

497
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,020
Well, it could be stored anywhere.

498
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:51,880
I mean, you as the user,

499
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,200
you as the private key holder,

500
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,020
it's your responsibility to have that state.

501
00:18:59,160 --> 00:18:59,960
What the authors are,

502
00:19:00,220 --> 00:19:01,840
my understanding of what they're saying is like,

503
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,160
it's error prone

504
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:05,940
to try to replicate that everywhere

505
00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:07,640
and transfer it to other devices.

506
00:19:07,940 --> 00:19:09,960
It probably gets produced and

507
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,920
stored in your primary

508
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,620
signing device, so you're never

509
00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:14,500
touching it.

510
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,040
And then for recovery

511
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,800
modes, you use this other signature type.

512
00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:22,040
The drawback is you can't just have

513
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,160
12 words and have access to

514
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,760
moving Bitcoin, right?

515
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:27,440
No.

516
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,760
With the combination of these two signatures,

517
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,400
you could.

518
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,160
because if your primary

519
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:35,620
sign device has this extra data,

520
00:19:36,260 --> 00:19:38,180
if it somehow fails, disappears, whatever,

521
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:39,400
now you don't have that extra data,

522
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:41,640
but your recovery solutions

523
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,720
don't use that more optimized signature.

524
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,140
They use the shrimps version,

525
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:47,520
which is stateless.

526
00:19:48,380 --> 00:19:50,580
So you don't need anything beyond your...

527
00:19:50,580 --> 00:19:51,800
But that could still be converted

528
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,220
to stateless one to 12 words or 24 words?

529
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:56,020
Or would you still need

530
00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:57,660
some additional file or something saved?

531
00:19:57,820 --> 00:19:58,460
It's stateless.

532
00:19:58,460 --> 00:20:03,340
but the 12 words is enough yeah the 12 words would be enough yeah yeah that's interesting

533
00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:10,140
so i i think it's also worth uh well actually one idea potentially maybe a spiral idea one thing

534
00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:16,540
that i would love to understand better is are there researchers in this field working on this

535
00:20:16,540 --> 00:20:21,700
for bitcoin who are also seriously paying attention to what's happening at the front of your labs

536
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:26,240
i don't know with blockstream i mean i i would guess that they're using ai i mean i'm assuming

537
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,420
and they've got people like Andrew Polster

538
00:20:27,420 --> 00:20:29,200
who are already pretty genius.

539
00:20:29,780 --> 00:20:31,060
But I think it would be one thing,

540
00:20:31,180 --> 00:20:33,180
one project I would like to see as a public good

541
00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:36,340
is someone thinking about these issues for Bitcoin,

542
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:37,820
putting out research or whatever,

543
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,840
but who also has an actual sense

544
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,240
of what's happening at places like in propaganda.

545
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,800
I don't know the answer.

546
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:45,920
I'll ask.

547
00:20:46,020 --> 00:20:46,740
I'm curious too.

548
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:47,820
If not, maybe we can find that.

549
00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:51,660
In general, I think Bitcoin developers

550
00:20:51,660 --> 00:20:54,560
have been historically a little behind

551
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,440
on following the latest AI trends,

552
00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:58,480
but I've seen it with my own team at Spiral.

553
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,760
Huge shift since December

554
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,880
with the big step up in capabilities

555
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,660
of Opus 4.5 and 4.6.

556
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,520
It's been a complete 180.

557
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,040
And now LDK Project is heavily leveraging it.

558
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:17,300
So it's great to see.

559
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:18,880
And the way my team operates,

560
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:20,640
even though I'm the boss, I'm not the boss.

561
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:21,880
They don't really listen to me.

562
00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:24,380
So this is definitely like they see the value.

563
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,640
they've shifted their thoughts on like,

564
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,520
this has gone from not helpful for something low level

565
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:31,600
like Lightning Development Kit

566
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,160
to being extremely promising.

567
00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:36,780
In fact, in a few weeks,

568
00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:39,300
I'll talk about something they're doing recently

569
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:40,940
using how they're using AI tools.

570
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:41,720
I love to hear that.

571
00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:43,300
So we're also in, you know,

572
00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:44,980
one of the Spiral devs is a core dev.

573
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:47,660
He has been using it as well.

574
00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:49,600
Maybe in a few weeks,

575
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,360
I'll talk about how he's using it as well.

576
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,460
And we're trying to influence more core devs.

577
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,300
just to see the possibilities with this stuff.

578
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:58,560
And you guys should publish that too.

579
00:21:58,820 --> 00:21:59,620
Like publish how they're doing it.

580
00:21:59,620 --> 00:22:01,460
Well, that's what, I mean, Austin Krauss is helping.

581
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,480
So we'll have a couple of reports.

582
00:22:04,180 --> 00:22:05,960
One is already underway and almost ready to go.

583
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,260
I'll have my agent review your reports.

584
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:16,860
We surveyed 50 spiral developers and grantees on their AI usage,

585
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,580
collected all that data, and created a report.

586
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:22,260
And the report has like four different archetypes,

587
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:23,900
like different types of users.

588
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,080
So I think Austin's done a really good job on that.

589
00:22:28,180 --> 00:22:29,360
So I'm looking forward to publishing.

590
00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:30,420
I think that's going to come out.

591
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:31,800
I love it.

592
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:32,880
Two weeks, maybe even next week.

593
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,380
Can we get a flavor of the archetypes?

594
00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:41,520
Well, it ranges from sort of more like the non-developer type of person,

595
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,500
like a designer, PM, marketing person,

596
00:22:43,580 --> 00:22:46,680
and how they are doing things that they could not do before.

597
00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:48,500
It's literally zero to one.

598
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:51,500
If you ask, what percentage of performance increase

599
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:53,480
do you get from your productivity?

600
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,600
this is like infinity

601
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,100
because I couldn't do this before

602
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:56,940
now I can do it.

603
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,460
All the way down

604
00:22:58,460 --> 00:22:59,420
to like a low level

605
00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:00,500
protocol developer

606
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:01,720
who historically

607
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,460
has been like

608
00:23:02,460 --> 00:23:03,920
this stuff is non

609
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,020
you know I'm working on

610
00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:05,880
very

611
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,260
very

612
00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:08,460
you know

613
00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:09,720
security is of

614
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:10,760
utmost importance

615
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,260
every little detail

616
00:23:12,260 --> 00:23:12,580
matters

617
00:23:12,580 --> 00:23:13,320
dealing with money

618
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:14,560
dealing with trillion dollar

619
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:14,960
assets

620
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,640
and so that's

621
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:17,960
and then

622
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,480
some archetypes

623
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,120
in between

624
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:20,660
including

625
00:23:20,660 --> 00:23:32,347
including like a builder like the stuff we talk about a lot in the show and like what you do David So yeah so that be a good report And then I expect a separate report too

626
00:23:32,347 --> 00:23:35,147
in maybe three, four weeks from now.

627
00:23:35,407 --> 00:23:37,447
So I want to cover a couple of these comments here

628
00:23:37,447 --> 00:23:39,027
and I think it's worth maybe zooming out

629
00:23:39,027 --> 00:23:40,747
on a broader discussion of what's happening in quantum.

630
00:23:40,826 --> 00:23:42,947
So basically we have a couple different from Jesse

631
00:23:42,947 --> 00:23:45,787
and from Level 99 Slack or Good Name.

632
00:23:46,147 --> 00:23:47,227
Basically everyone's just saying like,

633
00:23:47,326 --> 00:23:50,427
hey, quantum has aristed all kinds of cryptography.

634
00:23:50,867 --> 00:23:51,566
Banks use cryptography.

635
00:23:51,566 --> 00:23:55,687
everyone uses cryptography why are we so stressed on bitcoin it's an everyone problem i think it's

636
00:23:55,687 --> 00:23:59,947
worth pausing and noting why it's a little different for bitcoin you already kind of did

637
00:23:59,947 --> 00:24:06,306
i already did but also but but kind of expanding into what that like what is the worst case scenario

638
00:24:06,306 --> 00:24:09,767
because i think a lot a lot of what we're seeing here is there's going to be either way like fud

639
00:24:09,767 --> 00:24:13,027
within the investment community and like there already was like the jeffrey's dude let's hang

640
00:24:13,027 --> 00:24:16,287
sell because of quantum whether he means it or not so i think that's one of the things to address

641
00:24:16,287 --> 00:24:18,727
is like, what are we talking about?

642
00:24:18,867 --> 00:24:19,967
Are we talking about practice?

643
00:24:21,407 --> 00:24:22,127
Not again.

644
00:24:22,546 --> 00:24:23,447
He doesn't get that right.

645
00:24:26,586 --> 00:24:27,027
AI.

646
00:24:28,347 --> 00:24:29,546
But not your kind of AI.

647
00:24:30,287 --> 00:24:31,187
Allen Iverson.

648
00:24:31,306 --> 00:24:32,546
That's why my initial group was called.

649
00:24:33,627 --> 00:24:35,566
2017, the truth.

650
00:24:36,187 --> 00:24:36,667
The truth.

651
00:24:36,826 --> 00:24:37,147
The truth.

652
00:24:37,167 --> 00:24:37,847
I forgot his nickname.

653
00:24:37,927 --> 00:24:38,306
The truth.

654
00:24:38,527 --> 00:24:41,627
Let me first respond to Jesse's comment

655
00:24:41,627 --> 00:24:43,947
because I actually love Jesse, but disagree.

656
00:24:44,647 --> 00:24:46,806
Quantum computing is an everyone problem, not a Bitcoin problem.

657
00:24:47,107 --> 00:24:48,306
I mean, yes.

658
00:24:48,987 --> 00:24:52,107
But for reasons I already said on the show,

659
00:24:52,687 --> 00:24:54,847
it's a much, much harder problem with Bitcoin.

660
00:24:55,586 --> 00:24:57,427
You got to get consensus to upgrade.

661
00:24:58,107 --> 00:24:59,787
And there's also Satoshi's coins.

662
00:24:59,967 --> 00:25:01,147
What do you do with Satoshi's coins?

663
00:25:01,367 --> 00:25:02,586
There's a philosophical problem.

664
00:25:02,907 --> 00:25:04,647
Google doesn't have a philosophical problem.

665
00:25:05,187 --> 00:25:06,326
So that's the second reason.

666
00:25:06,326 --> 00:25:10,887
And the third reason is different is just that the Bitcoin blockchain

667
00:25:10,887 --> 00:25:13,787
is just more cost-sensitive than others.

668
00:25:13,947 --> 00:25:17,707
So there's at least three reasons that the problem for Bitcoin is much harder.

669
00:25:17,707 --> 00:25:20,627
And I would actually say a fourth reason, this is what I would dig into.

670
00:25:20,806 --> 00:25:22,267
It's an extension of your first reason.

671
00:25:22,707 --> 00:25:27,887
So to be clear, we're talking about, as far as we understand today, the worst case situation

672
00:25:27,887 --> 00:25:34,267
for Bitcoin is you get quantum computers that can potentially take an exposed pub key and

673
00:25:34,267 --> 00:25:36,687
derive the private key and steal your coins.

674
00:25:36,847 --> 00:25:39,907
Now, there's also questions, even if that happens, of like, how long does that take

675
00:25:39,907 --> 00:25:41,147
to occur.

676
00:25:41,586 --> 00:25:44,387
How many quantum computers are out there?

677
00:25:44,566 --> 00:25:46,267
Who's the actor? If it's Google, they may not want to

678
00:25:46,267 --> 00:25:48,306
hack stuff because they're Google. That's just not

679
00:25:48,306 --> 00:25:50,167
what they're going to do. There's a lot of questions around that.

680
00:25:50,267 --> 00:25:52,207
Let's just say, absolute worst case scenario,

681
00:25:52,287 --> 00:25:54,187
there's a lot of quantum computers out there. There's unsaved

682
00:25:54,187 --> 00:25:56,227
reactors. They can break your signatures

683
00:25:56,227 --> 00:25:58,167
for exposed pub keys pretty fast.

684
00:25:58,527 --> 00:26:00,047
There's also some debate about how many

685
00:26:00,047 --> 00:26:02,127
exposed pub keys there are. Do you have an opinion

686
00:26:02,127 --> 00:26:04,107
on that? Not really. There's like six and a half

687
00:26:04,107 --> 00:26:06,227
million. That's pretty easily

688
00:26:06,227 --> 00:26:08,227
debated.

689
00:26:08,227 --> 00:26:08,907
Well, then never mind.

690
00:26:09,007 --> 00:26:10,287
So it's six and a half million coins.

691
00:26:10,387 --> 00:26:13,647
So let's say roughly a third of Bitcoin is in this situation.

692
00:26:13,787 --> 00:26:15,227
So the good news is two-thirds is not.

693
00:26:16,326 --> 00:26:18,547
When I think about the worst case...

694
00:26:18,547 --> 00:26:20,107
Those are keys, though, not coin, right?

695
00:26:20,887 --> 00:26:23,306
Those are addresses where Bitcoin is held,

696
00:26:23,367 --> 00:26:24,806
but not necessarily corresponding to the amount.

697
00:26:24,826 --> 00:26:25,586
Right, so you don't have...

698
00:26:25,586 --> 00:26:27,647
And I think in this report, we have the number.

699
00:26:27,747 --> 00:26:29,247
I forget it offhand, but I agree.

700
00:26:29,306 --> 00:26:30,467
That's a really important point.

701
00:26:30,607 --> 00:26:31,127
It's like...

702
00:26:31,127 --> 00:26:31,347
Weighted by value.

703
00:26:31,387 --> 00:26:32,467
Yeah, weighted by value.

704
00:26:32,747 --> 00:26:34,107
One other really quick thing.

705
00:26:34,107 --> 00:26:37,387
something like four of this,

706
00:26:37,727 --> 00:26:39,487
four, four and a half of those six and a half million.

707
00:26:39,627 --> 00:26:40,326
Probably be lost.

708
00:26:42,086 --> 00:26:43,167
Well, no.

709
00:26:44,527 --> 00:26:46,887
It's, there's also that.

710
00:26:46,887 --> 00:26:50,347
Well, some multi-million number

711
00:26:50,347 --> 00:26:55,487
is from exchanges that practice address reuse.

712
00:26:55,667 --> 00:26:56,427
Maybe that's what I was thinking.

713
00:26:56,467 --> 00:26:58,407
So that, and I was thinking it was four million,

714
00:26:58,507 --> 00:26:59,387
maybe it was two million, I don't know.

715
00:26:59,447 --> 00:27:01,507
But like a sizable number

716
00:27:01,507 --> 00:27:03,887
could very quickly be addressed.

717
00:27:03,887 --> 00:27:08,607
Like you just have a handful of companies that can stop doing address reuse and then boom.

718
00:27:08,847 --> 00:27:08,947
Amazing.

719
00:27:09,387 --> 00:27:15,007
And so that's where I think I was in the debate on like how many are in this decentralized cluster of uptips, a technical term.

720
00:27:15,187 --> 00:27:15,207
Yeah.

721
00:27:15,387 --> 00:27:20,727
I mean, you know, Satoshi is estimated to have 800,000 to a million coins.

722
00:27:20,887 --> 00:27:21,447
So at least those.

723
00:27:21,687 --> 00:27:24,127
Then there's some other P2PK coins.

724
00:27:24,647 --> 00:27:25,647
So you guys can see.

725
00:27:25,667 --> 00:27:26,586
There's some taproot coins.

726
00:27:26,667 --> 00:27:28,207
There's some confidence interval stuff happening here.

727
00:27:28,207 --> 00:27:33,847
But the general question, and I think why this gets trickier, and I actually haven't gone super deep on this.

728
00:27:33,887 --> 00:27:40,767
maybe one of you guys has, but not only does Bitcoin have to reach decentralized consensus,

729
00:27:40,767 --> 00:27:46,326
which we've seen as extreme challenge, but also let's say today somehow we waved a magic wand,

730
00:27:46,427 --> 00:27:49,607
everyone agreed, you know what? It's time to upgrade. We've got the post-quantum signatures.

731
00:27:49,847 --> 00:27:56,207
Let's go. Bitcoin also has a finite block space. So even if you wanted to move all of those keys

732
00:27:56,207 --> 00:28:01,187
or all of those sitting Bitcoin into new addresses, my understanding is there's some debate. I haven't

733
00:28:01,187 --> 00:28:04,566
look closely. I don't know if you have an opinion on this, but it's not, you can't just do it in one

734
00:28:04,566 --> 00:28:08,687
block, right? This could potentially take... We address this in the report and it's a non-issue.

735
00:28:08,806 --> 00:28:15,387
How long would it take? Well, again, it's a percentage of value. Like a day gets most of it.

736
00:28:15,566 --> 00:28:20,187
Like it's very, very, very quick. I mean, to get all of it is maybe five or six months or something

737
00:28:20,187 --> 00:28:24,826
like that, but like the lion's share of the value is very quick. Okay. So that's good.

738
00:28:24,967 --> 00:28:29,347
And that report runs through the math so people can look at it. I mean, I heard, yeah, exactly.

739
00:28:29,347 --> 00:28:31,407
I don't want to say it because I know there was some dude

740
00:28:31,407 --> 00:28:33,227
who went on, I think, Press and Pish's show

741
00:28:33,227 --> 00:28:35,047
and was talking about the Capriol dude.

742
00:28:35,127 --> 00:28:37,007
It was just like, oh, this is going to take one to two years.

743
00:28:37,607 --> 00:28:39,787
Maybe he means the long tail, but that...

744
00:28:39,787 --> 00:28:41,367
One of the things we do on the show

745
00:28:41,367 --> 00:28:43,487
is dispel some of the misunderstandings.

746
00:28:43,507 --> 00:28:45,467
That's good, and that's why I think this report

747
00:28:45,467 --> 00:28:47,907
will be super valuable. But regardless, even in that world,

748
00:28:48,007 --> 00:28:49,427
so let's say we realize, oh shit,

749
00:28:49,527 --> 00:28:51,607
it's a break glass scenario, we need to move ASAP.

750
00:28:51,947 --> 00:28:54,306
Maybe you can move the lion's share of the coins quickly.

751
00:28:54,767 --> 00:28:55,826
I think it's also worth noting,

752
00:28:55,927 --> 00:28:57,727
probably it would tank price

753
00:28:57,727 --> 00:29:00,687
some degree in the short term because people would freak out. There'd be a lot of uncertainty,

754
00:29:00,826 --> 00:29:04,547
a lot of education would need to happen about what's at risk, what's not. But I think one thing

755
00:29:04,547 --> 00:29:10,367
to maybe put everyone's mind at ease to some degree is, you know, Bitcoin is an anti-fragile

756
00:29:10,367 --> 00:29:15,267
system. Even if the worst case scenario happens here, it could like totally tank the fiat price

757
00:29:15,267 --> 00:29:18,367
for a while. That's certainly on the table. A lot of people wouldn't like that. It is what it is,

758
00:29:18,647 --> 00:29:21,467
but it's not like it would kill Bitcoin, right? It's like in the same way that Mt. Gox

759
00:29:21,467 --> 00:29:25,826
tanked the Bitcoin price. And that sucked if you were holding and needed to get liquidity in the

760
00:29:25,826 --> 00:29:27,306
short term. But if you're, you know,

761
00:29:27,667 --> 00:29:29,887
one sat is one sat, then one Bitcoin

762
00:29:29,887 --> 00:29:31,667
is one Bitcoin, then like in the long run,

763
00:29:31,867 --> 00:29:33,547
whatever, we'll figure it out. That's kind of my take.

764
00:29:34,367 --> 00:29:35,227
We should also,

765
00:29:35,507 --> 00:29:37,847
we're going to publish

766
00:29:37,847 --> 00:29:39,707
this report and then we'll talk about

767
00:29:39,707 --> 00:29:40,687
the report on the show too.

768
00:29:41,607 --> 00:29:43,847
We shouldn't go

769
00:29:43,847 --> 00:29:45,907
through the whole report without, you know, it'd be great

770
00:29:45,907 --> 00:29:47,747
if the audience could read the report, engage

771
00:29:47,747 --> 00:29:48,586
more on it, etc.

772
00:29:49,787 --> 00:29:51,806
One question I had, seriously

773
00:29:51,806 --> 00:29:53,627
I think it'd be cool to get some of those Google dudes like

774
00:29:53,627 --> 00:29:55,687
involved with us in some way, shape, or form if you're already

775
00:29:55,687 --> 00:30:00,487
home. He's great. One minor thing, I didn't know this. I know DK is our California expert,

776
00:30:00,607 --> 00:30:05,566
so maybe he knows this. Did you guys know that Google's quantum research was in Santa Barbara?

777
00:30:07,086 --> 00:30:09,507
Hartman lives there. That's what I figured. Did you know that?

778
00:30:09,667 --> 00:30:12,727
I didn't know that. Yeah. So I went down this little rabbit hole and I was like,

779
00:30:12,767 --> 00:30:15,167
why the hell is this coming out? I didn't know that, but I know Hartman lives there.

780
00:30:15,467 --> 00:30:19,887
I know I was a California expert. You're always driving around on trips,

781
00:30:20,287 --> 00:30:25,187
telling us, oh, you know, he's our mammoth expert. But it was interesting to me. I didn't

782
00:30:25,187 --> 00:30:27,287
realize UCSB, University of California,

783
00:30:27,387 --> 00:30:28,507
Santa Barbara is apparently like

784
00:30:28,507 --> 00:30:30,387
the hub for quantum research.

785
00:30:30,527 --> 00:30:32,707
Isn't that where Hal Fanny lives? And he did

786
00:30:32,707 --> 00:30:35,086
like quantum stuff. I think he lived in

787
00:30:35,086 --> 00:30:36,987
Santa Barbara. Interesting. And I think he

788
00:30:36,987 --> 00:30:39,066
worked on, I think he had a professional

789
00:30:39,066 --> 00:30:40,527
engagement in something

790
00:30:40,527 --> 00:30:43,066
related to that. It would be, yeah. I had

791
00:30:43,066 --> 00:30:44,707
no idea, but it's always interesting to see.

792
00:30:44,947 --> 00:30:46,806
There's probably some military thing at some point.

793
00:30:46,967 --> 00:30:49,047
You can see where all the little outputs were.

794
00:30:49,086 --> 00:30:50,667
But I was shocked it wasn't like Berkeley or Stanford.

795
00:30:50,867 --> 00:30:51,907
I was like, wow, interesting.

796
00:30:52,687 --> 00:30:54,647
Cool. Alright. New topic?

797
00:30:54,647 --> 00:31:03,027
Wait, before we finish this one, I think the Google stuff, I think Google is unlikely to be over-hyping or over-playing the hand.

798
00:31:03,227 --> 00:31:14,127
But another thing that seems to draft off of this is we hear a lot of noise from a bunch of people who I think, you know, have, I think there's a particular company that people have been investing in that.

799
00:31:14,447 --> 00:31:14,847
Project 11.

800
00:31:14,847 --> 00:31:15,707
Project 11.

801
00:31:16,527 --> 00:31:18,907
Have we learned anything new about

802
00:31:18,907 --> 00:31:21,427
what they're saying about this

803
00:31:21,427 --> 00:31:23,267
or anything from Project 11

804
00:31:23,267 --> 00:31:27,787
about this Google news?

805
00:31:27,927 --> 00:31:29,806
Or is it kind of just...

806
00:31:29,806 --> 00:31:31,607
Oh, I mean, just like playing up the hype, right?

807
00:31:31,727 --> 00:31:34,407
The more hysteria and concern,

808
00:31:35,267 --> 00:31:36,826
warranted or not,

809
00:31:37,306 --> 00:31:38,647
they stand to benefit

810
00:31:38,647 --> 00:31:40,847
because they have a centralized solution to...

811
00:31:40,847 --> 00:31:40,987
Right.

812
00:31:41,586 --> 00:31:42,847
I mean, even...

813
00:31:42,847 --> 00:31:45,847
I haven't seen Blockstream

814
00:31:45,847 --> 00:31:47,767
pushing this hard, but they have Liquid

815
00:31:47,767 --> 00:31:49,607
and Liquid could be used as a solution

816
00:31:49,607 --> 00:31:50,247
too.

817
00:31:51,347 --> 00:31:53,427
So for any of these companies

818
00:31:53,427 --> 00:31:57,747
I mean, for anyone talking about this topic

819
00:31:57,747 --> 00:31:59,567
you just need to understand their

820
00:31:59,567 --> 00:32:01,147
motivation and incentives.

821
00:32:01,287 --> 00:32:03,887
And that doesn't mean what they're saying is false or wrong.

822
00:32:04,147 --> 00:32:05,927
You just need to understand

823
00:32:05,927 --> 00:32:08,027
what their biases

824
00:32:08,027 --> 00:32:08,627
might be.

825
00:32:09,227 --> 00:32:11,927
We had the Project 11 duty.

826
00:32:11,927 --> 00:32:12,967
he came to the event, though.

827
00:32:13,607 --> 00:32:14,847
So, I mean, whatever.

828
00:32:15,047 --> 00:32:15,547
It's still worth taking.

829
00:32:15,547 --> 00:32:17,507
He was clapping back at Adam Back today

830
00:32:17,507 --> 00:32:18,767
on Twitter, I saw,

831
00:32:18,887 --> 00:32:20,067
and I didn't really.

832
00:32:20,727 --> 00:32:23,787
I generally agree with Adam Back

833
00:32:23,787 --> 00:32:25,326
as saying in general,

834
00:32:25,487 --> 00:32:26,507
but including this topic.

835
00:32:26,807 --> 00:32:26,987
Yeah.

836
00:32:27,127 --> 00:32:27,507
Well, anyways,

837
00:32:27,586 --> 00:32:28,667
I think it's good that there's people

838
00:32:28,667 --> 00:32:29,586
from different voices.

839
00:32:29,826 --> 00:32:30,907
They can argue it out,

840
00:32:30,947 --> 00:32:31,767
but it's better for all of us

841
00:32:31,767 --> 00:32:32,807
to have different perspectives.

842
00:32:33,227 --> 00:32:34,007
Do you want to answer,

843
00:32:34,307 --> 00:32:35,467
because the people got to know,

844
00:32:35,507 --> 00:32:36,347
the audience got to know.

845
00:32:37,147 --> 00:32:38,507
So to Matt,

846
00:32:38,627 --> 00:32:39,187
what's up, Matt?

847
00:32:39,507 --> 00:32:39,847
Welcome.

848
00:32:40,347 --> 00:32:40,847
And Jesse.

849
00:32:40,847 --> 00:32:42,967
they're asking about this shirt.

850
00:32:43,287 --> 00:32:44,747
I want to give a shout out to my dad.

851
00:32:45,267 --> 00:32:47,027
He always makes me the dopest shirts.

852
00:32:47,447 --> 00:32:49,826
And yeah, I'm feeling in a good mood today,

853
00:32:49,907 --> 00:32:51,447
feeling alive and awake again.

854
00:32:51,447 --> 00:32:52,527
So I wanted to wear something fun.

855
00:32:52,907 --> 00:32:54,167
This is Bebo.

856
00:32:55,647 --> 00:32:57,007
Bebo, believe it or not,

857
00:32:57,447 --> 00:32:59,787
I had an alarm clock of this as a child.

858
00:33:00,207 --> 00:33:01,967
So you would touch the little...

859
00:33:01,967 --> 00:33:03,326
That explains everything, right?

860
00:33:05,267 --> 00:33:08,047
You have no idea how unorthodox my childhood was.

861
00:33:08,867 --> 00:33:10,307
I'm from small town, Iowa.

862
00:33:10,307 --> 00:33:12,586
So a little bit of overlap probably.

863
00:33:13,907 --> 00:33:17,487
Well, not to mention my dad is on a different plane,

864
00:33:17,687 --> 00:33:19,887
but he had me this as a child and I loved it.

865
00:33:19,947 --> 00:33:22,047
And so you tap his little antenna coming out of his head.

866
00:33:22,287 --> 00:33:23,107
When he wakes you up, he says,

867
00:33:23,247 --> 00:33:25,227
Bebo, Bebo, and you tap it.

868
00:33:25,307 --> 00:33:26,367
And anyways, I loved it as a kid.

869
00:33:26,727 --> 00:33:27,867
And so now I have a shirt of it.

870
00:33:28,027 --> 00:33:29,586
And I have to say, I was a little embarrassed.

871
00:33:29,867 --> 00:33:32,027
I posted, apparently this was, I didn't know this,

872
00:33:32,326 --> 00:33:37,147
but featured in some Asian cinema.

873
00:33:37,326 --> 00:33:38,687
And as I always joked as a kid,

874
00:33:38,687 --> 00:33:39,787
because my dad's into weird movies,

875
00:33:39,787 --> 00:33:46,047
you know there's weird movies there's very weird movies and there's japanese movies and uh you know

876
00:33:46,047 --> 00:33:50,707
i always thought the japanese are like just like the like their art school stuff is the craziest

877
00:33:50,707 --> 00:33:56,107
shit you've ever seen in your entire life anyway so i wrongfully assumed that because it was so wild

878
00:33:56,107 --> 00:34:01,607
and wacky this crazy show that it was uh japanese um i was quickly corrected on nostr because nostr

879
00:34:01,607 --> 00:34:09,767
nostr is in fact the hive mind for some truth yeah well for for an orthodox uh dropouts uh

880
00:34:09,767 --> 00:34:11,606
Um, Nostra is the place to go.

881
00:34:11,646 --> 00:34:14,867
And I was quickly corrected within like five minutes that no, it is in fact Taiwanese.

882
00:34:15,527 --> 00:34:17,606
So Taiwanese are also pretty wacky.

883
00:34:17,686 --> 00:34:17,987
Okay.

884
00:34:18,206 --> 00:34:18,706
There you go.

885
00:34:19,567 --> 00:34:25,507
Um, Jesse says project 21 million, which makes me think of what one there blocked, blocked,

886
00:34:25,507 --> 00:34:27,146
dropped the teaser today.

887
00:34:27,307 --> 00:34:27,807
I saw that.

888
00:34:27,927 --> 00:34:28,287
Did you see that?

889
00:34:28,427 --> 00:34:29,047
The faucet stuff?

890
00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:29,567
The faucet.

891
00:34:29,646 --> 00:34:29,807
Okay.

892
00:34:30,007 --> 00:34:30,527
Free Bitcoin.

893
00:34:31,527 --> 00:34:34,007
That's what it, I mean, it's a teaser.

894
00:34:34,227 --> 00:34:35,606
So I don't want to like spill the beans.

895
00:34:35,747 --> 00:34:38,007
Was this dropped on April 1st or April 3rd?

896
00:34:38,007 --> 00:34:40,047
I think it came out today.

897
00:34:40,367 --> 00:34:44,487
I think it provided a date of April 6th.

898
00:34:44,586 --> 00:34:47,646
So we'll all learn on April 6th.

899
00:34:47,767 --> 00:34:52,186
But in that teaser, there was 1 billion

900
00:34:52,186 --> 00:34:54,287
with the Bitcoin B symbol,

901
00:34:54,767 --> 00:34:56,987
which got a few people riled up

902
00:34:56,987 --> 00:34:59,727
because that's more than 21 million Bitcoin.

903
00:35:01,067 --> 00:35:02,447
That's 10 BTC, right?

904
00:35:02,606 --> 00:35:03,706
Implying, yeah.

905
00:35:06,007 --> 00:35:07,247
Nice use of BTC.

906
00:35:08,007 --> 00:35:08,547
Thank you.

907
00:35:09,327 --> 00:35:11,807
That was kind of my reply as well.

908
00:35:12,047 --> 00:35:15,027
But no changes to how many Bitcoin there are.

909
00:35:15,327 --> 00:35:15,606
Good.

910
00:35:17,106 --> 00:35:23,606
But apparently a billion sats for Bitcoin faucet.

911
00:35:24,527 --> 00:35:25,007
That's pretty cool.

912
00:35:25,387 --> 00:35:25,467
Yeah.

913
00:35:25,586 --> 00:35:29,887
And I thought faucets kind of went out of common use a long time ago

914
00:35:29,887 --> 00:35:31,586
because people would just...

915
00:35:31,586 --> 00:35:32,447
Well, it's valuable now.

916
00:35:32,646 --> 00:35:34,867
Yeah, it's valuable and people would just build faucets and grab them all.

917
00:35:34,867 --> 00:35:35,626
So how do you...

918
00:35:35,626 --> 00:35:36,427
Blocks just give away a lot of value.

919
00:35:36,527 --> 00:35:36,947
It's making it rain.

920
00:35:36,947 --> 00:35:40,186
But couldn't you just build bots that collect it?

921
00:35:40,247 --> 00:35:42,527
Or is there some sort of proof of human involved?

922
00:35:42,747 --> 00:35:44,447
Or could you do a partnership with WorldCoin?

923
00:35:47,527 --> 00:35:49,447
No anal swabbing message again?

924
00:35:49,867 --> 00:35:51,547
Self protocol.

925
00:35:52,606 --> 00:35:54,047
Sorry to disappoint you.

926
00:35:54,067 --> 00:35:55,747
Google partnered with a protocol.

927
00:35:56,527 --> 00:35:58,606
I mean, I don't know if this is true.

928
00:35:58,686 --> 00:35:59,267
I heard some rumors.

929
00:35:59,527 --> 00:36:03,166
Block, I don't know, raised a little money trying to change the number of Bitcoin.

930
00:36:03,166 --> 00:36:06,646
All of a sudden now, where are these billion BTC coming from?

931
00:36:06,646 --> 00:36:07,807
I don't know.

932
00:36:08,166 --> 00:36:08,847
It's just a rumor.

933
00:36:09,367 --> 00:36:10,427
Anyway, it's a fun teaser.

934
00:36:10,747 --> 00:36:12,706
Let's see what's in store.

935
00:36:12,947 --> 00:36:13,547
You have no idea.

936
00:36:14,367 --> 00:36:15,747
Well, I can't talk about it on the show.

937
00:36:15,747 --> 00:36:17,727
He obviously has an idea to be sure.

938
00:36:18,126 --> 00:36:18,287
I know.

939
00:36:18,947 --> 00:36:21,186
I don't want to spoil it for the folks working on that.

940
00:36:21,287 --> 00:36:21,407
I know.

941
00:36:21,666 --> 00:36:21,827
Yeah.

942
00:36:22,686 --> 00:36:24,787
But yeah, that's exciting, I think.

943
00:36:25,047 --> 00:36:26,907
Well, Block had all kinds of announcements this week.

944
00:36:26,967 --> 00:36:27,206
Oh.

945
00:36:27,467 --> 00:36:28,027
Mini-AGI.

946
00:36:28,186 --> 00:36:28,686
Okay, no.

947
00:36:28,967 --> 00:36:31,686
Let's talk about Mini-AGI a minute, but while we're on Bitcoin, I have to ask,

948
00:36:31,887 --> 00:36:35,787
okay, so what the hell is going on with this turning on Bitcoin by default?

949
00:36:36,327 --> 00:36:38,387
So the way I thought that was going to work is,

950
00:36:38,507 --> 00:36:40,086
oh, you just go pay to place.

951
00:36:40,186 --> 00:36:41,727
They show you Unified QR code.

952
00:36:42,047 --> 00:36:42,807
I can pay with Lightning.

953
00:36:43,247 --> 00:36:43,987
And I was so excited.

954
00:36:44,126 --> 00:36:45,626
And I went and had lunch with Danny, actually.

955
00:36:45,727 --> 00:36:46,666
Some interesting thoughts there.

956
00:36:47,267 --> 00:36:49,427
And, you know, they brought out the little square reader.

957
00:36:49,547 --> 00:36:51,227
I have to say, by the way, the little square reader,

958
00:36:51,567 --> 00:36:52,427
very nice form type.

959
00:36:53,146 --> 00:36:53,467
Looks good.

960
00:36:53,606 --> 00:36:53,827
The new one?

961
00:36:53,967 --> 00:36:54,146
Yeah.

962
00:36:54,247 --> 00:36:55,586
Yeah, we have one here at PB, too.

963
00:36:55,686 --> 00:36:56,547
It's nice, right?

964
00:36:56,547 --> 00:36:57,126
It's really nice.

965
00:36:57,126 --> 00:37:00,547
But, like, the guy, we asked him about it,

966
00:37:00,847 --> 00:37:03,467
and he got excited at our ramen shop.

967
00:37:03,567 --> 00:37:03,827
He won.

968
00:37:03,887 --> 00:37:04,686
He was like, oh, I want to figure it out.

969
00:37:04,686 --> 00:37:05,547
and we spent like five minutes

970
00:37:05,547 --> 00:37:06,487
trying to figure out how to turn this thing on

971
00:37:06,487 --> 00:37:07,166
and we couldn't turn it on.

972
00:37:07,427 --> 00:37:08,447
So like, what's the deal?

973
00:37:09,646 --> 00:37:11,327
We talked about this a little bit on the show

974
00:37:11,327 --> 00:37:11,807
a few weeks ago,

975
00:37:11,907 --> 00:37:12,666
but I'll go into more detail.

976
00:37:12,666 --> 00:37:12,947
Yeah.

977
00:37:13,907 --> 00:37:14,847
But also just,

978
00:37:15,186 --> 00:37:18,146
it's not as simple as just yes or no

979
00:37:18,146 --> 00:37:18,987
or on or off

980
00:37:18,987 --> 00:37:20,987
or auto-enabled or not auto-enabled.

981
00:37:21,547 --> 00:37:22,467
So a few details.

982
00:37:23,907 --> 00:37:24,867
So last,

983
00:37:25,367 --> 00:37:27,186
you know, last November,

984
00:37:27,547 --> 00:37:29,507
Square enabled Bitcoin payments.

985
00:37:30,067 --> 00:37:32,747
But the seller had to go into a menu,

986
00:37:33,126 --> 00:37:34,367
enable Bitcoin payments,

987
00:37:34,686 --> 00:37:37,086
and through that exercise

988
00:37:37,086 --> 00:37:38,586
I learned a lot more about Square

989
00:37:38,586 --> 00:37:40,727
first of all there's different hardware

990
00:37:40,727 --> 00:37:42,567
there's different products

991
00:37:42,567 --> 00:37:45,327
there's also five different apps you can download from the app store

992
00:37:45,327 --> 00:37:47,387
so just because it exists here

993
00:37:47,387 --> 00:37:48,847
doesn't mean it exists here

994
00:37:48,847 --> 00:37:51,367
and just because something launches today

995
00:37:51,367 --> 00:37:53,387
doesn't mean that like four weeks from now

996
00:37:53,387 --> 00:37:55,547
there might not be another thing that launches

997
00:37:55,547 --> 00:37:57,206
so like if your buddy

998
00:37:57,206 --> 00:37:59,646
or if the business you're at

999
00:37:59,646 --> 00:38:01,247
has an app on their phone

1000
00:38:01,247 --> 00:38:02,487
maybe it's not enabled yet

1001
00:38:02,487 --> 00:38:03,507
No, it's the handheld reader.

1002
00:38:03,767 --> 00:38:05,027
Yeah, so maybe it'll be enabled later.

1003
00:38:05,686 --> 00:38:10,407
Also, it's very common with launches is rollout, right?

1004
00:38:10,527 --> 00:38:14,727
So maybe like a certain number of sellers have it enabled now and not all of them yet.

1005
00:38:14,807 --> 00:38:15,747
So all of that.

1006
00:38:16,007 --> 00:38:22,567
And then even there'll be some that there are some really old square hardware that can't upgrade the software.

1007
00:38:23,047 --> 00:38:24,646
So they'll never support it.

1008
00:38:25,307 --> 00:38:30,367
For most hardware, though, it can, in theory, support it.

1009
00:38:30,367 --> 00:38:35,626
But the seller has to upgrade at least the November release.

1010
00:38:36,367 --> 00:38:39,847
They don't have to upgrade now with this news,

1011
00:38:39,947 --> 00:38:43,387
but they have to upgrade the software from at least November on.

1012
00:38:44,067 --> 00:38:46,606
And Square does not do auto-updates.

1013
00:38:47,407 --> 00:38:50,887
Because sellers have to proactively update their software.

1014
00:38:51,267 --> 00:38:54,387
And a lot of small businesses, that's not something that's top of mind for them.

1015
00:38:54,447 --> 00:38:55,467
They're running their business, right?

1016
00:38:55,467 --> 00:38:59,307
so all of those

1017
00:38:59,307 --> 00:39:00,887
are more of a

1018
00:39:00,887 --> 00:39:02,027
it's going to take time

1019
00:39:02,027 --> 00:39:04,166
before you get to ubiquity

1020
00:39:04,166 --> 00:39:05,166
or close to ubiquity

1021
00:39:05,166 --> 00:39:07,287
but let's talk about

1022
00:39:07,287 --> 00:39:08,407
another challenge too

1023
00:39:08,407 --> 00:39:10,507
let's say it's auto enabled

1024
00:39:10,507 --> 00:39:12,626
well it's still the situation

1025
00:39:12,626 --> 00:39:14,427
let's say you're the seller

1026
00:39:14,427 --> 00:39:15,126
I'm the customer

1027
00:39:15,126 --> 00:39:15,987
I walk in your store

1028
00:39:15,987 --> 00:39:17,247
it's still the case

1029
00:39:17,247 --> 00:39:18,146
that I can't just like

1030
00:39:18,146 --> 00:39:19,507
pay in bitcoin

1031
00:39:19,507 --> 00:39:21,367
without talking to you about it

1032
00:39:21,367 --> 00:39:21,967
why not?

1033
00:39:22,067 --> 00:39:22,407
why not?

1034
00:39:22,487 --> 00:39:22,867
you know, thank you

1035
00:39:22,867 --> 00:39:24,827
I'll get into that

1036
00:39:24,827 --> 00:39:26,987
So first I'll describe the state of things.

1037
00:39:27,287 --> 00:39:30,086
So I have to tell you, hey, I want to pay in Bitcoin.

1038
00:39:30,086 --> 00:39:35,987
Or some Square devices have a customer-facing terminal.

1039
00:39:36,646 --> 00:39:39,407
I do believe they've improved from November

1040
00:39:39,407 --> 00:39:43,666
to where I, as a customer, can tap on the Bitcoin symbol.

1041
00:39:43,867 --> 00:39:45,727
So I don't have to talk to you.

1042
00:39:45,767 --> 00:39:49,027
I don't have to announce it or you don't have to understand it.

1043
00:39:49,527 --> 00:39:51,706
I, as a customer, tap on the Bitcoin symbol

1044
00:39:51,706 --> 00:39:53,787
and then pay in Bitcoin. Awesome.

1045
00:39:53,787 --> 00:39:57,086
So there's definitely major improvements with this release.

1046
00:39:57,847 --> 00:40:06,447
But for situations where I as a customer can't touch the Square software, you still have to have this conversation.

1047
00:40:07,027 --> 00:40:15,747
Another challenge is something like 1 in 10 Cash App customers have Bitcoin.

1048
00:40:15,747 --> 00:40:21,106
I don't know the specific stats, but there's 60 million active Cash App customers.

1049
00:40:21,106 --> 00:40:22,706
all of them have dollars.

1050
00:40:23,586 --> 00:40:26,267
A small number of them have Bitcoin.

1051
00:40:26,927 --> 00:40:30,227
All 60 million can now pay Square

1052
00:40:30,227 --> 00:40:31,427
over the Lightning Network.

1053
00:40:31,546 --> 00:40:31,887
Exactly.

1054
00:40:31,987 --> 00:40:33,686
And there's no fees for the merchant.

1055
00:40:33,927 --> 00:40:34,327
Exactly.

1056
00:40:34,447 --> 00:40:36,907
So while we all hope for the future

1057
00:40:36,907 --> 00:40:38,027
where people are paying in Bitcoin,

1058
00:40:38,387 --> 00:40:40,867
the near-term win for sellers

1059
00:40:40,867 --> 00:40:42,227
is cut out the fees.

1060
00:40:42,487 --> 00:40:43,367
Save the fees, right?

1061
00:40:43,787 --> 00:40:46,747
And they don't care how it's being achieved

1062
00:40:46,747 --> 00:40:48,606
whether someone's paying in Bitcoin or dollars.

1063
00:40:48,747 --> 00:40:49,247
They don't care.

1064
00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:50,287
They want to save the fees.

1065
00:40:50,287 --> 00:40:57,807
So the lion's share of the customers walking in your door that can save you fees are the cash up customers with dollars, right?

1066
00:40:58,146 --> 00:41:03,927
So another UX challenge here is that those customers, they don't own Bitcoin.

1067
00:41:04,307 --> 00:41:06,686
They might not know much about Bitcoin.

1068
00:41:06,927 --> 00:41:13,066
They certainly don't go into the store thinking, I'm going to tap on the Bitcoin symbol to pay in Bitcoin because they don't have any Bitcoin.

1069
00:41:13,407 --> 00:41:13,487
Right.

1070
00:41:13,947 --> 00:41:16,546
So that needs to be overcome as well.

1071
00:41:16,546 --> 00:41:18,706
actually we talked about that on the show

1072
00:41:18,706 --> 00:41:20,387
like Haley had the idea of like maybe

1073
00:41:20,387 --> 00:41:22,706
the messaging like the

1074
00:41:22,706 --> 00:41:24,287
seller needs to be educated on like

1075
00:41:24,287 --> 00:41:26,227
lightning network and then like

1076
00:41:26,227 --> 00:41:28,586
what so the message like

1077
00:41:28,586 --> 00:41:30,527
if you're the seller I'm the customer I walk in

1078
00:41:30,527 --> 00:41:32,686
and you could say hey I'll give you a discount

1079
00:41:32,686 --> 00:41:34,146
Steve if you pay with Cash App

1080
00:41:34,146 --> 00:41:35,867
yeah exactly

1081
00:41:35,867 --> 00:41:37,106
Cash App's a brand that I

1082
00:41:37,106 --> 00:41:39,867
and then I could be like I don't have Cash App

1083
00:41:39,867 --> 00:41:42,186
but if I have Cash App I know what it is then

1084
00:41:42,186 --> 00:41:44,407
and it's like okay great I can just pay with Cash App

1085
00:41:44,407 --> 00:41:46,467
and then whether it's dollars, bitcoin, whatever

1086
00:41:46,467 --> 00:41:48,487
I'm paying with Cash App. And you know what they should do

1087
00:41:48,487 --> 00:41:50,507
is at that point of sale, you should

1088
00:41:50,507 --> 00:41:52,467
also just have it super easy to do the referral.

1089
00:41:53,086 --> 00:41:54,427
Right? So the merchant

1090
00:41:54,427 --> 00:41:56,327
says, pay with Cash App.

1091
00:41:56,447 --> 00:41:58,566
I'm going to give you whatever this discount. Oh, by the way,

1092
00:41:58,887 --> 00:42:00,307
you know, whatever the referral bonus is,

1093
00:42:00,407 --> 00:42:01,367
collect $10 right now.

1094
00:42:02,887 --> 00:42:04,267
Sweet in the deal. Yeah, integrate it.

1095
00:42:04,347 --> 00:42:05,747
I totally agree with that as well.

1096
00:42:07,887 --> 00:42:08,206
Another,

1097
00:42:08,527 --> 00:42:10,507
so then getting back to your question,

1098
00:42:10,606 --> 00:42:11,566
why can't this just be,

1099
00:42:12,126 --> 00:42:14,387
why can't it be unified QR code? Why can't it just

1100
00:42:14,387 --> 00:42:15,626
be automatic? Because the default

1101
00:42:15,626 --> 00:42:17,807
Square Screen for most of the products

1102
00:42:17,807 --> 00:42:20,267
have a QR code, but it's the Cash App Pay

1103
00:42:20,267 --> 00:42:22,327
QR code, which has been

1104
00:42:22,327 --> 00:42:24,106
around for years. And that's if you

1105
00:42:24,106 --> 00:42:26,166
pay with Cash App, you can do that, and it actually

1106
00:42:26,166 --> 00:42:27,847
cuts out Visa. Visa is not used.

1107
00:42:28,646 --> 00:42:29,347
I used to do that.

1108
00:42:30,066 --> 00:42:30,686
Good for you.

1109
00:42:31,686 --> 00:42:34,566
For years, since I've seen Cash App Pay,

1110
00:42:34,626 --> 00:42:36,327
I was like, one day, this QR code will

1111
00:42:36,327 --> 00:42:37,927
also speak lightning. So I've been waiting.

1112
00:42:38,166 --> 00:42:39,767
Jesse asks, when's Square Sponsorship?

1113
00:42:40,566 --> 00:42:42,267
Oh, because we talk about block.

1114
00:42:42,467 --> 00:42:44,487
Well, hey, we talk about all kinds of products.

1115
00:42:44,487 --> 00:42:46,146
companies I work for

1116
00:42:46,146 --> 00:42:47,666
companies we invest in

1117
00:42:47,666 --> 00:42:48,327
but also companies

1118
00:42:48,327 --> 00:42:49,007
we don't invest in

1119
00:42:49,007 --> 00:42:50,227
and we're also not afraid

1120
00:42:50,227 --> 00:42:50,867
to like completely

1121
00:42:50,867 --> 00:42:51,686
rip apart companies

1122
00:42:51,686 --> 00:42:52,327
we invest in

1123
00:42:52,327 --> 00:42:53,827
and I'm also saying

1124
00:42:53,827 --> 00:42:54,487
right now like

1125
00:42:54,487 --> 00:42:55,546
I was told one thing

1126
00:42:55,546 --> 00:42:56,086
it's not working

1127
00:42:56,086 --> 00:42:56,686
I want to get to the bottom

1128
00:42:56,686 --> 00:42:57,027
so

1129
00:42:57,027 --> 00:42:58,626
so

1130
00:42:58,626 --> 00:42:59,787
anyway

1131
00:42:59,787 --> 00:43:00,527
oh okay

1132
00:43:00,527 --> 00:43:01,407
here's the

1133
00:43:01,407 --> 00:43:02,767
probably the thorniest

1134
00:43:02,767 --> 00:43:03,727
problem that is

1135
00:43:03,727 --> 00:43:05,046
not non-obvious

1136
00:43:05,046 --> 00:43:06,867
how do

1137
00:43:06,867 --> 00:43:08,546
the user flow

1138
00:43:08,546 --> 00:43:09,586
for tipping

1139
00:43:09,586 --> 00:43:10,086
yeah

1140
00:43:10,086 --> 00:43:11,947
and it turns out

1141
00:43:11,947 --> 00:43:12,686
Bitcoin and Lightning

1142
00:43:12,686 --> 00:43:13,987
don't

1143
00:43:14,487 --> 00:43:17,347
support the way people tip.

1144
00:43:17,867 --> 00:43:21,027
So like if you go to most point of sale terminals,

1145
00:43:21,447 --> 00:43:23,606
including Square, and you're paying in dollars,

1146
00:43:24,247 --> 00:43:27,267
you are told, oh, I owe 20 bucks or whatever.

1147
00:43:27,507 --> 00:43:27,947
Okay, great.

1148
00:43:28,387 --> 00:43:30,467
And then you tap to pay

1149
00:43:30,467 --> 00:43:32,586
or you somehow give your payment,

1150
00:43:33,027 --> 00:43:34,387
your credit card, debit card, whatever.

1151
00:43:35,027 --> 00:43:36,527
Then you're presented with,

1152
00:43:36,646 --> 00:43:37,727
would you like to add a tip?

1153
00:43:38,126 --> 00:43:39,007
And then you can do that.

1154
00:43:39,427 --> 00:43:42,007
And it handles that for you.

1155
00:43:42,007 --> 00:43:43,666
But with Bitcoin and Lightning,

1156
00:43:43,666 --> 00:43:44,747
if you're presenting an invoice,

1157
00:43:44,867 --> 00:43:46,027
it needs to be the total amount

1158
00:43:46,027 --> 00:43:47,646
unless you do two separate payments.

1159
00:43:48,407 --> 00:43:48,487
Yeah.

1160
00:43:50,287 --> 00:43:51,447
I've never considered that.

1161
00:43:51,586 --> 00:43:52,686
Why does it work that way?

1162
00:43:52,727 --> 00:43:54,166
So I'm a little disappointed that,

1163
00:43:54,586 --> 00:43:56,887
A, I did not consider this.

1164
00:43:57,487 --> 00:44:00,347
B, I've never seen the Bitcoin community consider this.

1165
00:44:01,007 --> 00:44:04,086
C, Spiral helped start the Bitcoin design community.

1166
00:44:04,227 --> 00:44:06,086
This is something that I think the design community

1167
00:44:06,086 --> 00:44:07,367
should have been on top of as well.

1168
00:44:07,626 --> 00:44:08,467
No one's thought about this.

1169
00:44:08,467 --> 00:44:08,807
No one has thought about this.

1170
00:44:09,427 --> 00:44:11,027
Well, sometimes you don't discover problems

1171
00:44:11,027 --> 00:44:12,186
until you actually try to do it.

1172
00:44:12,267 --> 00:44:13,086
So now we're trying to do it.

1173
00:44:13,086 --> 00:44:27,427
So because of that, it makes it difficult for Square to unify because the concern is that Square sellers wouldn't like changing the user flow on tipping.

1174
00:44:28,066 --> 00:44:34,367
So that needs, I haven't given it a lot of deep thought, but people need to be thinking about how to address that.

1175
00:44:34,447 --> 00:44:35,027
That's a real...

1176
00:44:35,027 --> 00:44:41,327
Maybe change user flows, maybe change customer behavior, seller behavior, maybe change Bitcoin Lightning protocol.

1177
00:44:41,327 --> 00:44:42,007
I don't know.

1178
00:44:42,007 --> 00:44:45,666
And it's a U.S. thing because like in Mexico, for example, when you, you know, you say you

1179
00:44:45,666 --> 00:44:47,706
want to pay with terminal, you don't pay with a credit card.

1180
00:44:48,027 --> 00:44:50,347
They come and they say like, okay, like, do you want to tip?

1181
00:44:50,387 --> 00:44:53,546
You say like whatever, 10, 20%, whatever it is, it's lower standards.

1182
00:44:53,827 --> 00:44:54,907
The U.S., by the way, it's kind of crazy.

1183
00:44:55,007 --> 00:44:57,206
We have a high tipping standards with like the worst service.

1184
00:44:57,407 --> 00:44:58,666
It's terrible.

1185
00:44:58,947 --> 00:45:00,727
But anyways, but then they do that first.

1186
00:45:00,767 --> 00:45:02,007
So in other countries, it's not an issue.

1187
00:45:02,086 --> 00:45:03,566
It seems like it's a U.S. cultural thing.

1188
00:45:04,967 --> 00:45:06,747
Yeah, I'm open to ideas there.

1189
00:45:07,367 --> 00:45:11,747
But Steve, on the hardware point you mentioned, so do you know, can you confirm that?

1190
00:45:12,007 --> 00:45:14,606
that only hardware that gives you the QR code

1191
00:45:14,606 --> 00:45:15,867
could even do this in the first place,

1192
00:45:15,927 --> 00:45:18,247
that the handheld terminals are definitely not turned on?

1193
00:45:21,106 --> 00:45:22,787
I don't know the answer to that.

1194
00:45:23,747 --> 00:45:25,827
Yeah, I don't know.

1195
00:45:25,987 --> 00:45:30,387
I do know that the rollout is only a portion of sellers.

1196
00:45:30,787 --> 00:45:33,626
And I think that cuts across products.

1197
00:45:33,947 --> 00:45:35,907
So it could be rolled out on that product,

1198
00:45:36,287 --> 00:45:37,586
but just not to every seller.

1199
00:45:37,586 --> 00:45:38,467
Well, and for what it's worth,

1200
00:45:38,847 --> 00:45:40,307
even this guy with the handheld thing,

1201
00:45:40,307 --> 00:45:41,666
he wanted to do it.

1202
00:45:41,666 --> 00:45:42,767
We couldn't find out to turn it off.

1203
00:45:43,027 --> 00:45:44,287
But if you recall a few weeks ago

1204
00:45:44,287 --> 00:45:45,927
when this was leaked and we talked about it,

1205
00:45:46,927 --> 00:45:51,027
I made the point that it's not a victory.

1206
00:45:51,527 --> 00:45:55,527
It's a very material, good step in the right direction,

1207
00:45:56,146 --> 00:45:58,367
including some of the UI improvements they've made.

1208
00:45:58,626 --> 00:46:01,387
But there's like 10 more things that need to be improved.

1209
00:46:01,487 --> 00:46:02,467
Yeah, we have ways to go.

1210
00:46:02,467 --> 00:46:02,527
Yeah.

1211
00:46:03,747 --> 00:46:05,206
But it's progress.

1212
00:46:05,566 --> 00:46:07,467
And like, you know, November and now we're March,

1213
00:46:07,807 --> 00:46:08,887
or I guess April now.

1214
00:46:09,427 --> 00:46:11,307
We should assign his homework.

1215
00:46:11,666 --> 00:46:16,666
one of us should be able to go and pay at a square merchant with Bitcoin

1216
00:46:16,666 --> 00:46:19,967
for a merchant that doesn't know what Bitcoin is next week.

1217
00:46:23,027 --> 00:46:24,407
I'm going to keep trying everywhere I go.

1218
00:46:24,907 --> 00:46:28,586
Paying in cash-up dollars also is a good exercise to do.

1219
00:46:28,747 --> 00:46:29,787
And that's all I do, by the way.

1220
00:46:29,867 --> 00:46:32,546
And also to me, and I think the UX needs to improve a little bit there

1221
00:46:32,546 --> 00:46:33,626
because when you go to pay, it says,

1222
00:46:33,727 --> 00:46:36,927
do you want to pay with Bitcoin or do you want to pay with dollars if you have Bitcoin?

1223
00:46:37,186 --> 00:46:40,267
But if someone has Bitcoin in cash-up, why would you ever use the Bitcoin?

1224
00:46:40,267 --> 00:46:45,727
Like the whole, like the way Square has set this up, like completely obviates like the

1225
00:46:45,727 --> 00:47:01,753
biggest issue that people always had with spending which is oh like maybe this is cap gains or oh I don want to spend my valuable asset I want to use the weak money Great So now you know in your point of lightning network all I do is use the weak money And that what I do every time And in fact I will say this just in general

1226
00:47:01,753 --> 00:47:06,833
the flows for interoperability are getting so much better. Like if you want to fund, like,

1227
00:47:06,913 --> 00:47:11,113
you know, I'd wanted to try to top me up an Albee wallet with cash app using dollars.

1228
00:47:11,493 --> 00:47:16,393
And it was just so smooth and so awesome. And it's like, I honestly think you should get to

1229
00:47:16,393 --> 00:47:20,033
the point where unless you bring your own bitcoin you shouldn't even like give people the option to

1230
00:47:20,033 --> 00:47:24,353
spend their bitcoin necessarily just be like throw away dollars over the lightning network that's it

1231
00:47:25,133 --> 00:47:31,893
all this reminds me what's the current state of the world with like apple pay can that be enabled

1232
00:47:31,893 --> 00:47:40,733
where you're paying with like a virtual card that resolves over lightning um i i don't i'm not i don't

1233
00:47:40,733 --> 00:47:46,053
have all the knowledge on this i i it's definitely not been available to third parties in general

1234
00:47:46,053 --> 00:47:50,253
I think Callie posted some breakthroughs

1235
00:47:50,253 --> 00:47:52,373
with one of the Cashew wallets and projects

1236
00:47:52,373 --> 00:47:55,433
but I couldn't tell you exactly what the details were

1237
00:47:55,433 --> 00:47:58,533
but I think you have to configure one of your

1238
00:47:58,533 --> 00:48:01,513
extra hot physical buttons on the phone to do something

1239
00:48:01,513 --> 00:48:04,253
and then you can get it or something. It's not perfect

1240
00:48:04,253 --> 00:48:05,413
but I do wonder

1241
00:48:05,413 --> 00:48:09,653
you just mentioned virtual cards

1242
00:48:09,653 --> 00:48:13,653
Cash App has 25 million debit cards

1243
00:48:13,653 --> 00:48:14,153
in existence.

1244
00:48:14,333 --> 00:48:15,573
Like the 25 million cards

1245
00:48:15,573 --> 00:48:16,113
that have been issued

1246
00:48:16,113 --> 00:48:17,153
or more.

1247
00:48:17,373 --> 00:48:18,773
I think it's the public number.

1248
00:48:19,753 --> 00:48:20,893
So like I have

1249
00:48:20,893 --> 00:48:21,553
Cash App card

1250
00:48:21,553 --> 00:48:22,593
as part of Apple Pay.

1251
00:48:22,813 --> 00:48:24,513
Like when I double click,

1252
00:48:24,833 --> 00:48:26,893
it brings up my Visa card

1253
00:48:26,893 --> 00:48:28,753
and my Cash App card, right?

1254
00:48:28,933 --> 00:48:29,653
And I can pay

1255
00:48:29,653 --> 00:48:30,613
with the Cash App card.

1256
00:48:31,873 --> 00:48:32,413
So you could,

1257
00:48:33,533 --> 00:48:35,333
I don't know what all is in,

1258
00:48:35,853 --> 00:48:37,593
I don't know if you need

1259
00:48:37,593 --> 00:48:40,193
to be a physical debit card issuer

1260
00:48:40,193 --> 00:48:41,713
to be able to do that

1261
00:48:41,713 --> 00:48:42,913
or if you're just

1262
00:48:42,913 --> 00:48:48,593
a Bitcoin wallet, if there's like a relatively low investment way to issue something on a

1263
00:48:48,593 --> 00:48:50,873
virtual card, that might be a great shortcut.

1264
00:48:50,873 --> 00:48:54,893
Because I think about how I use, whenever I see a square terminal, my default is just

1265
00:48:54,893 --> 00:48:58,913
to use it like I use everything else, which is just double tap the side of the Apple Pay.

1266
00:48:59,373 --> 00:49:04,973
And if that could be like presented as a card, but then the plumbing beneath the surface

1267
00:49:04,973 --> 00:49:06,213
actually does whatever I want it to do.

1268
00:49:06,213 --> 00:49:07,993
So that needs to be explored.

1269
00:49:07,993 --> 00:49:11,913
and if it can be done relatively easily and cheaply,

1270
00:49:12,053 --> 00:49:13,493
every Bitcoin wallet should do that.

1271
00:49:13,673 --> 00:49:14,573
If it's not, but I mean,

1272
00:49:14,833 --> 00:49:16,573
my understanding of the current state of the art though

1273
00:49:16,573 --> 00:49:18,773
is that, yeah, you have to open your app.

1274
00:49:19,153 --> 00:49:22,633
So if, you know, the seller, again,

1275
00:49:22,853 --> 00:49:25,693
for physical retail, like what's going to get me to

1276
00:49:25,693 --> 00:49:28,733
not only have Bitcoin on my phone and spend Bitcoin,

1277
00:49:28,813 --> 00:49:30,693
but even dollars on Lightning and Cash App

1278
00:49:30,693 --> 00:49:32,193
just to be aware of it and use it,

1279
00:49:32,333 --> 00:49:34,813
I have to be aware and I need to be incentivized

1280
00:49:34,813 --> 00:49:37,173
because otherwise I'm going to double click Apple Pay

1281
00:49:37,173 --> 00:49:38,673
and that's so easy.

1282
00:49:39,153 --> 00:49:40,713
It's so much easier than opening it.

1283
00:49:40,973 --> 00:49:43,113
I mean, it's marginally better,

1284
00:49:43,213 --> 00:49:44,613
but that margin matters when you're paying.

1285
00:49:45,293 --> 00:49:48,013
But if I'm offered like 5% off

1286
00:49:48,013 --> 00:49:49,973
or something material,

1287
00:49:50,273 --> 00:49:52,733
then okay, I'll open Cash App and pay that way.

1288
00:49:53,173 --> 00:49:54,433
So a couple ideas on this.

1289
00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:57,133
I'm wondering right now if the move is,

1290
00:49:57,333 --> 00:49:59,473
I mean, since they're already in this Cash App pay anyway,

1291
00:49:59,673 --> 00:50:01,013
and if we really just want to incentivize,

1292
00:50:01,393 --> 00:50:02,533
like instead of telling people anything,

1293
00:50:02,533 --> 00:50:03,513
even Bitcoin, Lightning,

1294
00:50:03,993 --> 00:50:06,033
like if you're like really in the weeds,

1295
00:50:06,033 --> 00:50:06,333
It's OG.

1296
00:50:06,593 --> 00:50:07,673
There's unified QR code.

1297
00:50:07,733 --> 00:50:10,833
You could bring your Albi or Breeze or Prime, like whatever, knock yourself out.

1298
00:50:11,173 --> 00:50:14,813
But for like most people, the 99%, you just say, pay with Cash App.

1299
00:50:15,353 --> 00:50:19,013
And like Cash App pages defaults to everything is Bitcoin Lightning, everything.

1300
00:50:19,393 --> 00:50:21,573
And like internally, I know it's like cheaper and better.

1301
00:50:21,793 --> 00:50:24,873
Like if you just have Cash App and Square just to use their own internal ledger, which they

1302
00:50:24,873 --> 00:50:25,613
already started with that.

1303
00:50:25,933 --> 00:50:29,233
But like if you're trying to like juice the network, just turn everything, like everything

1304
00:50:29,233 --> 00:50:30,093
is just a Lightning payment.

1305
00:50:30,093 --> 00:50:33,733
I think the main problem there is the tipping flow.

1306
00:50:34,033 --> 00:50:34,273
Got it.

1307
00:50:34,273 --> 00:50:37,173
Matt Coat is saying that in Canada,

1308
00:50:37,273 --> 00:50:38,873
he thinks it's the opposite.

1309
00:50:39,133 --> 00:50:40,113
You said some other countries too.

1310
00:50:40,673 --> 00:50:41,113
Yeah, Mexico.

1311
00:50:42,113 --> 00:50:43,513
One of those other countries.

1312
00:50:43,793 --> 00:50:44,853
Well, I forget which one you said.

1313
00:50:45,793 --> 00:50:48,973
Our brothers and sisters that are bordering the United States.

1314
00:50:50,913 --> 00:50:54,173
And I don't know globally.

1315
00:50:54,293 --> 00:50:55,313
The one that gave us the Gulf.

1316
00:50:55,413 --> 00:50:57,413
I don't know if it's like a U.S. only thing

1317
00:50:57,413 --> 00:50:58,853
or if it's split around the world.

1318
00:50:58,993 --> 00:50:59,313
Who knows?

1319
00:50:59,313 --> 00:51:03,173
But at least for Square and Cash App,

1320
00:51:03,173 --> 00:51:04,333
they're predominantly US.

1321
00:51:04,473 --> 00:51:06,393
And then you could also just run promotions.

1322
00:51:06,593 --> 00:51:09,213
You make it easy for the seller

1323
00:51:09,213 --> 00:51:10,433
to give promotions for using that.

1324
00:51:10,553 --> 00:51:11,653
That's some of the stuff Bob is exploring.

1325
00:51:11,773 --> 00:51:13,213
But then Cash App or Square

1326
00:51:13,213 --> 00:51:13,993
could also just be like,

1327
00:51:14,033 --> 00:51:15,413
all right, we're going to give away $10 million

1328
00:51:15,413 --> 00:51:16,433
over this whole year.

1329
00:51:16,633 --> 00:51:18,293
And it's just like, anyone that uses this,

1330
00:51:18,693 --> 00:51:20,093
and you could do it like a lottery style,

1331
00:51:20,193 --> 00:51:22,153
you can win $1,000 in Bitcoin and lottery.

1332
00:51:22,333 --> 00:51:23,693
Or every time you use it,

1333
00:51:23,753 --> 00:51:25,313
you get whatever, unlock the next level.

1334
00:51:26,113 --> 00:51:27,213
There's a lot of ways to use it.

1335
00:51:27,593 --> 00:51:29,813
I don't know if you guys have run into this.

1336
00:51:29,873 --> 00:51:31,113
I don't feel like it's frequently

1337
00:51:31,113 --> 00:51:33,233
something that merchants have enabled,

1338
00:51:33,393 --> 00:51:35,653
but I have at least a couple merchants

1339
00:51:35,653 --> 00:51:38,933
where I've just used the regular Apple Pay flow,

1340
00:51:38,933 --> 00:51:41,213
and then they somehow have added me

1341
00:51:41,213 --> 00:51:42,373
to their loyalty program.

1342
00:51:43,093 --> 00:51:44,793
Like, is that a default?

1343
00:51:45,413 --> 00:51:46,933
Is that through Cash App?

1344
00:51:47,293 --> 00:51:48,113
Oh, through Square.

1345
00:51:48,373 --> 00:51:49,893
Yeah, that's a Square thing.

1346
00:51:49,933 --> 00:51:50,553
Is it? Okay.

1347
00:51:51,573 --> 00:51:52,833
So that feels like...

1348
00:51:52,833 --> 00:51:54,113
I'm being honest, it feels...

1349
00:51:54,113 --> 00:51:55,933
I find it kind of annoying, but...

1350
00:51:55,933 --> 00:51:57,813
I've just seen it a few times,

1351
00:51:57,893 --> 00:51:59,713
but I could see that same thing

1352
00:51:59,713 --> 00:52:02,453
if it were able to be a little bit more,

1353
00:52:02,813 --> 00:52:04,453
you know, that 3% that you're saving

1354
00:52:04,453 --> 00:52:05,593
could be sort of incorporated

1355
00:52:05,593 --> 00:52:08,273
into the messaging of those kinds of loyalty programs

1356
00:52:08,273 --> 00:52:10,213
so the people that launch the loyalty program

1357
00:52:10,213 --> 00:52:11,513
and give more visibility to, like,

1358
00:52:11,573 --> 00:52:12,973
what enables the loyalty program.

1359
00:52:13,233 --> 00:52:13,413
Yeah.

1360
00:52:14,533 --> 00:52:15,833
What pays for the rewards.

1361
00:52:16,893 --> 00:52:17,233
All right.

1362
00:52:18,053 --> 00:52:20,413
So we don't frustrate Jesse.

1363
00:52:20,593 --> 00:52:21,413
We'll talk about not,

1364
00:52:21,533 --> 00:52:22,773
well, but we still have more block time,

1365
00:52:22,833 --> 00:52:23,793
but let's talk about a different topic.

1366
00:52:23,793 --> 00:52:24,413
What does Jesse want?

1367
00:52:24,513 --> 00:52:25,693
Oh, he just doesn't want to talk about it.

1368
00:52:25,693 --> 00:52:26,613
He wants more square.

1369
00:52:26,773 --> 00:52:29,093
He wants block to only sponsor the show

1370
00:52:29,093 --> 00:52:30,093
because we talk about block.

1371
00:52:31,093 --> 00:52:32,033
Here's a fun topic.

1372
00:52:32,233 --> 00:52:32,813
So OpenAI,

1373
00:52:33,753 --> 00:52:35,233
so a few months ago,

1374
00:52:36,093 --> 00:52:38,413
Coinbase bought a podcast, right?

1375
00:52:38,473 --> 00:52:39,873
I forget the name of that podcast

1376
00:52:39,873 --> 00:52:40,773
or what it even was,

1377
00:52:40,993 --> 00:52:41,853
but they bought a podcast.

1378
00:52:42,133 --> 00:52:43,573
And now OpenAI bought,

1379
00:52:44,833 --> 00:52:48,273
in a more substantial announcement,

1380
00:52:48,553 --> 00:52:50,133
bought, was it TBPN?

1381
00:52:50,373 --> 00:52:50,633
Yeah.

1382
00:52:51,373 --> 00:52:53,053
Which I did not know

1383
00:52:53,053 --> 00:52:54,973
started the same time

1384
00:52:54,973 --> 00:52:55,973
that we started this show.

1385
00:52:55,973 --> 00:52:57,053
I pointed it out

1386
00:52:57,053 --> 00:52:58,013
within the first two weeks.

1387
00:52:58,133 --> 00:52:58,433
I was like,

1388
00:52:58,533 --> 00:52:59,033
look at what they're doing.

1389
00:52:59,033 --> 00:52:59,633
I remember that.

1390
00:52:59,993 --> 00:53:01,053
I didn't know it was new, though.

1391
00:53:01,333 --> 00:53:02,693
I remember you pointing out,

1392
00:53:02,813 --> 00:53:03,153
I just thought,

1393
00:53:03,253 --> 00:53:04,373
like, Acquired has been around

1394
00:53:04,373 --> 00:53:05,133
for 10 years, right?

1395
00:53:05,153 --> 00:53:05,373
Yeah, yeah.

1396
00:53:05,393 --> 00:53:06,333
And I just learned of it

1397
00:53:06,333 --> 00:53:07,733
like the past six months.

1398
00:53:07,973 --> 00:53:08,073
Yeah.

1399
00:53:08,233 --> 00:53:09,273
My dear boomer friends.

1400
00:53:10,473 --> 00:53:11,893
I'm just trying to stay

1401
00:53:11,893 --> 00:53:12,813
atop of things.

1402
00:53:13,073 --> 00:53:14,113
Are we supposed to tell them

1403
00:53:14,113 --> 00:53:14,433
the latest thing?

1404
00:53:14,433 --> 00:53:16,113
I didn't know it was brand new.

1405
00:53:16,333 --> 00:53:16,873
Well, the latest?

1406
00:53:17,773 --> 00:53:18,753
What, they were being acquired?

1407
00:53:18,893 --> 00:53:19,973
That block is acquiring PBJ.

1408
00:53:22,133 --> 00:53:23,753
Well, we've got our valuation

1409
00:53:23,753 --> 00:53:24,853
points now.

1410
00:53:25,773 --> 00:53:26,733
Starting at $100 million.

1411
00:53:26,853 --> 00:53:27,813
Someone tweeted that

1412
00:53:27,813 --> 00:53:29,993
OpenAI paid $100 million

1413
00:53:29,993 --> 00:53:32,113
for this. And then I think,

1414
00:53:32,253 --> 00:53:33,673
and then someone I know and respect

1415
00:53:33,673 --> 00:53:35,913
nodded yes.

1416
00:53:37,413 --> 00:53:38,093
That's DK.

1417
00:53:38,533 --> 00:53:39,533
So, I don't know.

1418
00:53:39,733 --> 00:53:40,253
By the way,

1419
00:53:40,593 --> 00:53:41,173
whatever's DK,

1420
00:53:41,173 --> 00:53:43,353
is that rumor-based

1421
00:53:43,353 --> 00:53:45,033
or is it confirmed somewhere?

1422
00:53:45,273 --> 00:53:45,473
It's not.

1423
00:53:45,713 --> 00:53:46,653
I haven't confirmed it

1424
00:53:46,653 --> 00:53:47,713
through some private channel,

1425
00:53:47,813 --> 00:53:48,293
but I'm saying

1426
00:53:48,293 --> 00:53:49,853
that seems about right.

1427
00:53:49,933 --> 00:53:51,133
Okay, I agree.

1428
00:53:51,273 --> 00:53:51,913
Because they just raised

1429
00:53:51,913 --> 00:53:53,593
$122 billion or whatever.

1430
00:53:54,253 --> 00:53:54,373
Yeah.

1431
00:53:54,653 --> 00:53:55,393
And this is a,

1432
00:53:55,933 --> 00:53:57,013
I mean, the,

1433
00:53:57,813 --> 00:54:03,273
The theory I sent out, like, basically, there's just urgency for OpenAI to have a better outlet

1434
00:54:03,273 --> 00:54:06,133
because Anthropic is in our face every day.

1435
00:54:06,473 --> 00:54:13,113
Every day, there's some new cloud news that we're seeing, and we don't see that with OpenAI.

1436
00:54:13,113 --> 00:54:17,053
And Grok, Elon, controls the thing they all want to use to get information, too.

1437
00:54:17,133 --> 00:54:18,333
They don't have their own information outlet.

1438
00:54:18,593 --> 00:54:21,993
The one thing that really surprised me about this, and I'm curious how much they signed off on this,

1439
00:54:21,993 --> 00:54:28,933
my understanding is the tbpn show i kind of viewed that as like in a joke sort of as joke

1440
00:54:28,933 --> 00:54:32,953
sort of not like every venture fund has to have a podcast now right you're seeing you know people

1441
00:54:32,953 --> 00:54:38,373
buying podcasts and making them partners or whatever um actually that's a long tried and

1442
00:54:38,373 --> 00:54:43,193
true strategy in all of the industry but i kind of saw tbpn i thought that was like the founders

1443
00:54:43,193 --> 00:54:48,313
fund podcast basically because john coogan i think the guy that started it he was an entrepreneur

1444
00:54:48,313 --> 00:54:51,373
residence at founders fund trying a bunch of things and then launched this thing and i was

1445
00:54:51,373 --> 00:54:52,393
Okay, Founders Fund.

1446
00:54:52,473 --> 00:54:54,853
And then they always feature a lot of Founders Fund companies.

1447
00:54:55,013 --> 00:54:57,933
And so I just, I mean, I'm not saying anything like off the record ever.

1448
00:54:57,953 --> 00:54:59,193
I just assumed this was their thing.

1449
00:54:59,513 --> 00:55:01,913
Now, obviously, Founders Fund is a big backer of OpenAI,

1450
00:55:02,513 --> 00:55:04,693
but they're also a backer of Anthropic and a bunch of other stuff.

1451
00:55:04,753 --> 00:55:08,853
So I was a little surprised that if this was kind of like the strategic arm

1452
00:55:08,853 --> 00:55:11,073
of arguably the best venture capital firm in the world,

1453
00:55:11,373 --> 00:55:13,093
that they would let them go internal on a company.

1454
00:55:13,093 --> 00:55:18,213
I don't think it's, I think you're painting the picture a little bit more.

1455
00:55:18,213 --> 00:55:18,373
Black and white.

1456
00:55:18,613 --> 00:55:18,953
Black and white.

1457
00:55:18,993 --> 00:55:20,853
I think this is like networks of people.

1458
00:55:21,113 --> 00:55:21,313
Yeah.

1459
00:55:21,373 --> 00:55:26,613
And, you know, I think everybody understands that being able to communicate messages is high value.

1460
00:55:26,613 --> 00:55:32,653
If you rewind the clock 20 or 30 years to like pre-social media environment, the very best startups.

1461
00:55:32,813 --> 00:55:33,393
I wasn't alive then.

1462
00:55:34,353 --> 00:55:38,033
The very best startups would launch to some friends and family.

1463
00:55:38,273 --> 00:55:40,773
And, you know, they'd sort of word of mouth would drive everything.

1464
00:55:41,013 --> 00:55:41,133
Right.

1465
00:55:41,713 --> 00:55:46,613
And sort of we went through this phase where it became much more popular.

1466
00:55:46,753 --> 00:55:50,733
You'd see people trying to buy newspapers because you need to sort of get your message out.

1467
00:55:50,733 --> 00:55:52,233
You see Elon buying Twitter.

1468
00:55:52,633 --> 00:55:54,093
He wants to be able to control the message.

1469
00:55:54,093 --> 00:55:54,753
Bezos bought Washington Post.

1470
00:55:54,753 --> 00:55:56,113
Bezos had the Washington Post.

1471
00:55:56,293 --> 00:55:56,513
Murdoch.

1472
00:55:57,133 --> 00:56:00,213
So it's like owning a media channel.

1473
00:56:00,213 --> 00:56:01,393
Elon buys Twitter.

1474
00:56:02,493 --> 00:56:04,033
Yeah, it's kind of like the old media.

1475
00:56:05,313 --> 00:56:07,153
It is kind of old media versus new media.

1476
00:56:07,293 --> 00:56:08,553
And I think, in a sense,

1477
00:56:08,653 --> 00:56:11,213
like OpenAI doesn't really have a specific mouthpiece

1478
00:56:11,733 --> 00:56:12,853
that they control their own.

1479
00:56:13,233 --> 00:56:13,833
The other thing is,

1480
00:56:14,093 --> 00:56:17,953
a lot of the advertisers on TBPN

1481
00:56:17,953 --> 00:56:19,673
are OpenAI's competitors.

1482
00:56:19,673 --> 00:56:26,353
so they get to kneecap their competitors ability to buy their way into visibility one question i

1483
00:56:26,353 --> 00:56:30,193
have on the tbbn thing is like i mean i i've obviously seen clips from it but like so for

1484
00:56:30,193 --> 00:56:33,333
those who you don't know i bet a lot of our viewership i think we're in a very sort of

1485
00:56:33,333 --> 00:56:37,253
san francisco bubble yeah they may even know what tbbn is it's like espn but for for tech

1486
00:56:37,253 --> 00:56:40,913
and it's kind of got this like basically one thing i've realized is in tech you've got the people

1487
00:56:40,913 --> 00:56:44,893
that really love the technology they're just there tinkering all day and then you've got the people

1488
00:56:44,893 --> 00:56:48,553
that if they had been you know six five and athletic would have played basketball but it

1489
00:56:48,553 --> 00:56:49,333
didn't work out that way.

1490
00:56:49,673 --> 00:56:50,973
And so it is what it is.

1491
00:56:51,273 --> 00:56:53,093
And so this is like for those guys

1492
00:56:53,093 --> 00:56:54,253
because they're always breaking news.

1493
00:56:54,333 --> 00:56:55,313
This guy signed with them

1494
00:56:55,313 --> 00:56:56,373
and this is the signing bonus.

1495
00:56:56,493 --> 00:56:57,833
It's just, it's good.

1496
00:56:57,893 --> 00:56:58,473
It's kind of cheesy,

1497
00:56:58,573 --> 00:56:59,553
but it's literally like, you know,

1498
00:56:59,913 --> 00:57:00,473
they're playing their-

1499
00:57:00,473 --> 00:57:01,253
It's meant to feel like ESPN.

1500
00:57:01,413 --> 00:57:02,473
Yeah, it's meant to fulfill

1501
00:57:02,473 --> 00:57:04,033
these bros ESPN fantasy.

1502
00:57:04,993 --> 00:57:06,673
But like, I, wouldn't they're,

1503
00:57:06,813 --> 00:57:08,673
I mean, I get it that they probably have very-

1504
00:57:08,673 --> 00:57:10,253
Don't we try to be like ESPN

1505
00:57:10,253 --> 00:57:11,953
when we talk about basketball?

1506
00:57:14,833 --> 00:57:16,453
Steve is ready to join TVP.

1507
00:57:16,953 --> 00:57:18,173
It's been real, PBK.

1508
00:57:18,553 --> 00:57:28,093
But, I mean, my understanding is, I mean, I know most of the tech community, the people with capital, like, valuated viewership, I'm sure, is very high.

1509
00:57:28,453 --> 00:57:31,413
But, like, I think, weren't there viewer numbers that was, like, shockingly low?

1510
00:57:31,513 --> 00:57:32,233
It doesn't matter.

1511
00:57:32,333 --> 00:57:33,013
It's which viewers.

1512
00:57:33,273 --> 00:57:39,973
You want to be Mr. Beast and have 30 million or whatever, but they're kind of, like, ready to buy chocolate from you, but not much else?

1513
00:57:40,033 --> 00:57:40,433
I understand.

1514
00:57:40,433 --> 00:57:43,613
So, valuated, capital-weighted is probably extreme.

1515
00:57:44,173 --> 00:57:45,533
But, like, I don't know.

1516
00:57:45,673 --> 00:57:46,033
Just still.

1517
00:57:46,233 --> 00:57:47,493
These are the voices you want to influence.

1518
00:57:47,613 --> 00:57:47,773
Yeah.

1519
00:57:47,773 --> 00:57:53,593
the people listening to tppn yeah but how many subscribers on youtube did i say i i messaged it

1520
00:57:53,593 --> 00:58:04,793
out but um we we now have 3 600 we got a boost of i think 800 uh eight or 900 because of haley's

1521
00:58:04,793 --> 00:58:09,393
michael saylor interview so thank you haley i thought it came she's delivering all the value

1522
00:58:09,393 --> 00:58:15,953
to smash all the eyeballs to pbj hit subscribe right now the presidia bitcoin channel is i think

1523
00:58:15,953 --> 00:58:18,033
3,600. I forget the multiple compared

1524
00:58:18,033 --> 00:58:20,053
to TBPN. It was maybe

1525
00:58:20,053 --> 00:58:21,953
30 or 40

1526
00:58:21,953 --> 00:58:22,753
or 80x.

1527
00:58:22,753 --> 00:58:25,753
Even if it's 100x

1528
00:58:26,433 --> 00:58:27,933
and a million dollar

1529
00:58:27,933 --> 00:58:28,073
value.

1530
00:58:28,073 --> 00:58:29,813
He wants to join OpenAI.

1531
00:58:29,893 --> 00:58:31,133
100 million dollars OpenAI?

1532
00:58:31,913 --> 00:58:35,353
We're not for sale.

1533
00:58:35,853 --> 00:58:36,513
We're not for sale.

1534
00:58:36,693 --> 00:58:37,053
I agree.

1535
00:58:39,613 --> 00:58:40,093
Independence.

1536
00:58:40,373 --> 00:58:40,793
Worth it all.

1537
00:58:42,073 --> 00:58:44,113
No one has been more

1538
00:58:44,113 --> 00:58:45,333
anti-ads than me.

1539
00:58:45,333 --> 00:58:47,573
I freaking hate advertising.

1540
00:58:47,693 --> 00:58:48,893
I think it's just the absolute worst.

1541
00:58:49,193 --> 00:58:51,673
I'd rather just do value for value

1542
00:58:51,673 --> 00:58:52,593
and take one-tenth.

1543
00:58:52,953 --> 00:58:56,553
I think also all of these commercial platforms

1544
00:58:56,553 --> 00:58:59,813
can use money and influence

1545
00:58:59,813 --> 00:59:01,773
to create a voice for their platform,

1546
00:59:01,953 --> 00:59:04,653
but just like Bitcoin and Lightning

1547
00:59:04,653 --> 00:59:06,253
and other open-source technologies,

1548
00:59:06,693 --> 00:59:08,213
there isn't really an aggregation

1549
00:59:08,213 --> 00:59:10,433
of neutral voices for that.

1550
00:59:10,433 --> 00:59:11,993
So I think in a sense,

1551
00:59:12,533 --> 00:59:13,853
we can represent that neutrality,

1552
00:59:13,853 --> 00:59:15,733
but you can't go chasing

1553
00:59:15,733 --> 00:59:16,793
a hundred million dollar payday.

1554
00:59:16,893 --> 00:59:17,853
You have to be okay

1555
00:59:17,853 --> 00:59:19,753
just trying to look for truth

1556
00:59:19,753 --> 00:59:20,373
and neutrality.

1557
00:59:20,553 --> 00:59:21,433
Just being some dudes

1558
00:59:21,433 --> 00:59:21,953
on a podcast.

1559
00:59:22,233 --> 00:59:22,373
Yeah.

1560
00:59:23,993 --> 00:59:25,293
But I'm fine with the trade-off.

1561
00:59:25,373 --> 00:59:26,173
I'm fine with the trade-off.

1562
00:59:26,233 --> 00:59:26,613
It's fun.

1563
00:59:26,853 --> 00:59:27,513
That means I get to wear

1564
00:59:27,513 --> 00:59:28,393
fun shirts like this.

1565
00:59:28,613 --> 00:59:29,633
So, swag, swag.

1566
00:59:30,173 --> 00:59:31,513
Should we talk about

1567
00:59:31,513 --> 00:59:36,453
Gemma 4 being open-sourced?

1568
00:59:36,573 --> 00:59:37,513
I don't know a lot of details.

1569
00:59:37,693 --> 00:59:38,413
I haven't played with it.

1570
00:59:38,453 --> 00:59:38,673
Have you?

1571
00:59:38,833 --> 00:59:39,453
I haven't played with it.

1572
00:59:39,573 --> 00:59:40,813
I talked to one person

1573
00:59:40,813 --> 00:59:41,293
to play with it

1574
00:59:41,293 --> 00:59:41,913
and they said it's sick.

1575
00:59:42,133 --> 00:59:42,413
That's it.

1576
00:59:42,413 --> 00:59:44,093
but I guess

1577
00:59:44,093 --> 00:59:46,173
go ahead

1578
00:59:46,173 --> 00:59:49,453
maybe this can kind of talk a little bit about

1579
00:59:49,453 --> 00:59:50,973
open source AI in general

1580
00:59:50,973 --> 00:59:52,113
go into some of the Nostra stuff

1581
00:59:52,113 --> 00:59:53,333
some of the marketplace stuff

1582
00:59:53,333 --> 00:59:55,833
so we had an entrepreneur in the

1583
00:59:55,833 --> 00:59:57,733
office yesterday

1584
00:59:57,733 --> 01:00:00,333
Christopher David has been working on his open agent stuff

1585
01:00:00,333 --> 01:00:02,173
I will say as just like a

1586
01:00:02,173 --> 01:00:05,513
sort of meta point

1587
01:00:05,513 --> 01:00:07,313
it always feels to me

1588
01:00:07,313 --> 01:00:10,093
there's moments when ideas, time has come

1589
01:00:10,093 --> 01:00:11,993
and it feels like we're finally

1590
01:00:11,993 --> 01:00:20,833
getting to the point where the time has come for open networks to train and serve AI, which

1591
01:00:20,833 --> 01:00:21,833
is really exciting to me.

1592
01:00:21,913 --> 01:00:24,533
He was way ahead of his time a couple of years ago with OpenAgents.

1593
01:00:24,893 --> 01:00:25,853
He first launched a marketplace.

1594
01:00:25,993 --> 01:00:28,093
You could plug in GPUs, get paid out in sats.

1595
01:00:28,413 --> 01:00:29,713
There wasn't a lot you could do with it on the other end.

1596
01:00:30,093 --> 01:00:33,413
But now he's starting to see a little bit of traction again with his new idea.

1597
01:00:34,113 --> 01:00:37,073
Someone released, I saw on Stacker News, I think I shared this with you guys in the last

1598
01:00:37,073 --> 01:00:39,653
week or so, something called OWLs, which is a similar thing.

1599
01:00:39,653 --> 01:00:41,953
plug-in GPUs, gaming computers,

1600
01:00:42,473 --> 01:00:43,713
former Ethereum miners, whatever,

1601
01:00:44,133 --> 01:00:45,053
get paid out in sats.

1602
01:00:45,473 --> 01:00:46,473
And then obviously the stuff

1603
01:00:46,473 --> 01:00:47,933
that Jack released yesterday for Block,

1604
01:00:47,993 --> 01:00:49,333
I'm sure we'll talk a lot more about that.

1605
01:00:49,633 --> 01:00:50,873
I was also very excited to see

1606
01:00:50,873 --> 01:00:53,733
that one of these was a hive mind protocol for Noster.

1607
01:00:54,033 --> 01:00:56,053
So very, you know,

1608
01:00:56,573 --> 01:00:57,753
pointing in the same direction, obviously.

1609
01:00:59,193 --> 01:01:00,293
But I think-

1610
01:01:00,293 --> 01:01:00,853
Oh, Sprout.

1611
01:01:01,273 --> 01:01:02,233
Yeah, yeah.

1612
01:01:02,673 --> 01:01:04,933
But anyway, so I think there's a lot of cool stuff

1613
01:01:04,933 --> 01:01:07,433
with open protocols and decentralized AI.

1614
01:01:08,073 --> 01:01:09,353
Specifically on this though,

1615
01:01:09,353 --> 01:01:10,793
one thing I discussed with Christopher,

1616
01:01:11,033 --> 01:01:12,473
who's been playing with some of these models,

1617
01:01:12,533 --> 01:01:13,933
or he plays with these models all day, every day,

1618
01:01:14,533 --> 01:01:18,873
is I do think there is a major opportunity

1619
01:01:18,873 --> 01:01:23,013
for a rallying cry of we need a deep seek in America.

1620
01:01:23,333 --> 01:01:24,893
We need a deep seek moment for America.

1621
01:01:25,373 --> 01:01:27,833
We have not seen good open source models.

1622
01:01:27,993 --> 01:01:28,993
Llama was starting to do that

1623
01:01:28,993 --> 01:01:30,293
and then just kind of like shat the bed.

1624
01:01:31,053 --> 01:01:33,173
Meanwhile, Chinese models have just surged ahead

1625
01:01:33,173 --> 01:01:34,433
and there's even some question lately.

1626
01:01:34,533 --> 01:01:35,553
They've been starting to close source

1627
01:01:35,553 --> 01:01:36,553
more of their stuff too.

1628
01:01:36,553 --> 01:01:39,633
and not to mention we don't, as we've talked about,

1629
01:01:39,693 --> 01:01:41,133
have verifiability for these models.

1630
01:01:41,473 --> 01:01:43,573
So who knows, in the same way that I thought America

1631
01:01:43,573 --> 01:01:44,713
would have learned his lesson of like,

1632
01:01:44,793 --> 01:01:46,793
maybe you don't want to be entirely dependent

1633
01:01:46,793 --> 01:01:48,933
on Chinese supply chain for everything you make.

1634
01:01:49,253 --> 01:01:50,773
Maybe you don't want to be entirely dependent on China

1635
01:01:50,773 --> 01:01:51,873
for the open source models.

1636
01:01:53,013 --> 01:01:54,053
Didn't we see one?

1637
01:01:54,233 --> 01:01:56,113
Why don't you share something in the chat?

1638
01:01:56,353 --> 01:01:57,973
Well, NVIDIA.

1639
01:01:58,413 --> 01:01:59,593
Yeah, NVIDIA. You talked about that.

1640
01:01:59,593 --> 01:02:04,233
So both the $26 billion investment claim.

1641
01:02:04,493 --> 01:02:05,213
What does that mean though?

1642
01:02:05,213 --> 01:02:06,933
Did you learn anything more about that?

1643
01:02:07,153 --> 01:02:07,413
Open.

1644
01:02:07,953 --> 01:02:08,873
Yeah, but...

1645
01:02:08,873 --> 01:02:10,753
No, but I mean, they already have an open model.

1646
01:02:10,753 --> 01:02:13,253
They're going to train an open model that's supposed to have front-end.

1647
01:02:13,253 --> 01:02:22,633
So I don't know how good it is, but it definitely should be on the radar of being America's open source, open model.

1648
01:02:23,553 --> 01:02:24,513
An open data set idea.

1649
01:02:24,513 --> 01:02:26,393
Also, I was told by someone from NVIDIA

1650
01:02:26,393 --> 01:02:32,773
that they go beyond the Chinese models

1651
01:02:32,773 --> 01:02:33,613
and all the other models

1652
01:02:33,613 --> 01:02:36,593
and that they also disclose the inputs to the model.

1653
01:02:36,793 --> 01:02:37,473
That's what I'm talking about.

1654
01:02:37,513 --> 01:02:38,413
It's still...

1655
01:02:38,413 --> 01:02:40,933
I still have it queued up to go verify that

1656
01:02:40,933 --> 01:02:42,473
and understand the details of that.

1657
01:02:42,853 --> 01:02:44,073
I think it's Trust Me Bro.

1658
01:02:44,213 --> 01:02:44,433
Yeah.

1659
01:02:44,793 --> 01:02:46,773
It's Trust Me Bro or should they somehow verify?

1660
01:02:46,773 --> 01:02:48,213
But even if it's Trust Me Bro,

1661
01:02:48,433 --> 01:02:49,773
that's better than everyone else.

1662
01:02:50,113 --> 01:02:50,673
It's a step in the right direction.

1663
01:02:50,993 --> 01:02:52,393
So we definitely need to pay attention.

1664
01:02:54,513 --> 01:02:56,973
and then

1665
01:02:56,973 --> 01:02:59,173
Gemma 4

1666
01:02:59,173 --> 01:03:01,473
which apparently does really good on benchmarks

1667
01:03:01,473 --> 01:03:03,353
it's four different models for different

1668
01:03:03,353 --> 01:03:05,053
form factors including phones

1669
01:03:05,053 --> 01:03:07,013
and so

1670
01:03:07,013 --> 01:03:09,433
that's exciting and then it makes

1671
01:03:09,433 --> 01:03:10,673
it more credible and possible

1672
01:03:10,673 --> 01:03:12,533
for these peer-to-peer networks

1673
01:03:12,533 --> 01:03:14,833
which yep

1674
01:03:14,833 --> 01:03:17,193
announced with Mesh LLM

1675
01:03:17,193 --> 01:03:19,393
which McNeil has been

1676
01:03:19,393 --> 01:03:21,533
working on and it's great to see that

1677
01:03:21,533 --> 01:03:22,893
announced in

1678
01:03:22,893 --> 01:03:24,373
like an early form of it.

1679
01:03:24,593 --> 01:03:26,153
We should get him to come here. Is he local?

1680
01:03:28,453 --> 01:03:29,353
There's a good chance

1681
01:03:29,353 --> 01:03:30,293
I'm going to get him here.

1682
01:03:31,573 --> 01:03:34,053
He's in Australia, but...

1683
01:03:34,053 --> 01:03:34,813
Heard it here first.

1684
01:03:34,893 --> 01:03:35,713
Two weeks.

1685
01:03:36,933 --> 01:03:39,053
And do you want to give a little overview

1686
01:03:39,053 --> 01:03:40,353
of Mesh LLM?

1687
01:03:40,813 --> 01:03:43,293
Yeah, so peer-to-peer network.

1688
01:03:43,473 --> 01:03:44,853
I mean, what Max already said,

1689
01:03:45,073 --> 01:03:46,693
a peer-to-peer network of GPUs,

1690
01:03:46,693 --> 01:03:48,393
so if I have a compute job that

1691
01:03:48,393 --> 01:03:50,373
I don't have enough compute for,

1692
01:03:50,473 --> 01:03:52,533
I can farm it out on this peer-to-peer network.

1693
01:03:52,893 --> 01:03:55,433
I don't believe

1694
01:03:55,433 --> 01:03:58,513
the initial release works,

1695
01:03:58,633 --> 01:04:00,693
but it doesn't have any kind of payment mechanism,

1696
01:04:00,853 --> 01:04:03,133
so it's more of a community.

1697
01:04:03,793 --> 01:04:06,333
I'm giving away my GPU for you guys to use

1698
01:04:06,333 --> 01:04:07,573
or anyone else around the world.

1699
01:04:08,493 --> 01:04:10,993
There's no proof mechanism

1700
01:04:10,993 --> 01:04:13,173
that I'm proving that I'm running the model

1701
01:04:13,173 --> 01:04:13,853
you're expecting,

1702
01:04:14,373 --> 01:04:16,233
which definitely seems reasonable

1703
01:04:16,233 --> 01:04:17,673
if you're not paying for it.

1704
01:04:17,773 --> 01:04:19,993
But you can imagine the evolution of this roadmap

1705
01:04:19,993 --> 01:04:20,733
would be like,

1706
01:04:20,733 --> 01:04:23,253
well actually I want to earn some money

1707
01:04:23,253 --> 01:04:25,833
by plugging this in and letting other people use it

1708
01:04:25,833 --> 01:04:28,593
and then the customer will want some proof

1709
01:04:28,593 --> 01:04:30,513
that I'm actually doing the computation

1710
01:04:30,513 --> 01:04:32,013
and I'm actually running the model they expect

1711
01:04:32,013 --> 01:04:35,813
so those are two complexities that need to be added

1712
01:04:35,813 --> 01:04:37,673
What would be amazing, I'm just thinking out loud

1713
01:04:37,673 --> 01:04:39,213
especially if we start to get some of those guys

1714
01:04:39,213 --> 01:04:41,913
and working with and we're kind of building a little core here

1715
01:04:41,913 --> 01:04:45,293
people, Jesse and Eric and Tony and all these guys

1716
01:04:45,293 --> 01:04:47,573
that are kind of in and around these ideas

1717
01:04:47,573 --> 01:04:53,213
with the mesh network, it is just, trust me, bro, is my understanding of like, we're going to,

1718
01:04:53,213 --> 01:05:00,413
whatever, either split over different experts in the mixture of expert models or different layers

1719
01:05:00,413 --> 01:05:07,193
in more traditional models. The big question that I have on my mind, and Christian Catalini's been

1720
01:05:07,193 --> 01:05:09,813
writing a little bit about this from LightSpark. It looks like he's working on something in this

1721
01:05:09,813 --> 01:05:18,013
area is this verifiability yeah well all right excellent yeah um is uh this question of verifiability

1722
01:05:18,013 --> 01:05:23,853
it would be super cool um one to fund people from spiral like to really like open source what's the

1723
01:05:23,853 --> 01:05:28,513
latest with the verifiability research how do you solve that that problem um but two maybe we could

1724
01:05:28,513 --> 01:05:32,253
do like a mini event here getting those guys together with like some of the guys that came

1725
01:05:32,253 --> 01:05:35,693
to founders you should know who are actually working at the very frontier of verifiability

1726
01:05:35,693 --> 01:05:38,413
and compute, like mix some of those two minds.

1727
01:05:38,653 --> 01:05:41,673
Because to me, that idea will be cool and a toy

1728
01:05:41,673 --> 01:05:42,553
and it's currency.

1729
01:05:42,653 --> 01:05:43,073
And that's awesome.

1730
01:05:43,113 --> 01:05:43,853
Everything starts as a toy.

1731
01:05:43,973 --> 01:05:45,313
I can't wait to try and can't wait to use it.

1732
01:05:45,593 --> 01:05:47,613
But to go mainstream, I feel like you need

1733
01:05:47,613 --> 01:05:49,733
like the best of the best of figuring out that verifiable.

1734
01:05:50,293 --> 01:05:52,433
I have good news and bad news for you, Max.

1735
01:05:53,653 --> 01:05:55,853
I may be bringing a bunch of people here,

1736
01:05:55,993 --> 01:05:57,213
but it's during your vacation.

1737
01:05:57,453 --> 01:05:57,913
Are you serious?

1738
01:05:58,673 --> 01:05:59,373
It's not a vacation.

1739
01:05:59,513 --> 01:05:59,853
Cancel the vacation.

1740
01:06:00,073 --> 01:06:00,713
When is it?

1741
01:06:01,133 --> 01:06:01,893
It's not a vacation.

1742
01:06:01,893 --> 01:06:04,753
But Undelie's going to be like,

1743
01:06:04,913 --> 01:06:07,333
that bastard, he ruined my vacation.

1744
01:06:07,393 --> 01:06:08,513
It was super not a vacation,

1745
01:06:08,733 --> 01:06:10,433
but if it's important enough, maybe.

1746
01:06:10,773 --> 01:06:12,033
And then there's the AI hackathon

1747
01:06:12,033 --> 01:06:13,833
that Spiral's going to launch as well.

1748
01:06:14,613 --> 01:06:15,973
Also during when I'm out there.

1749
01:06:16,153 --> 01:06:17,753
I'm supposed to be offline for 10 days, but.

1750
01:06:18,313 --> 01:06:18,473
Yeah.

1751
01:06:19,093 --> 01:06:20,213
Okay, well, we should talk more about this.

1752
01:06:20,213 --> 01:06:21,593
Yeah, I'll tell you more later.

1753
01:06:21,913 --> 01:06:22,093
Yeah.

1754
01:06:22,713 --> 01:06:22,873
But.

1755
01:06:23,193 --> 01:06:23,413
Damn.

1756
01:06:24,033 --> 01:06:25,453
So I have a question for you.

1757
01:06:25,453 --> 01:06:25,933
Get through the movement.

1758
01:06:25,933 --> 01:06:27,113
Both of you guys,

1759
01:06:27,413 --> 01:06:31,513
because you're an investor in open agents, right?

1760
01:06:31,513 --> 01:06:32,953
Which I guess means we all are.

1761
01:06:33,273 --> 01:06:36,113
Or was the Hivemind fund that were LPs?

1762
01:06:36,253 --> 01:06:36,353
Yeah.

1763
01:06:37,133 --> 01:06:39,113
Because all the new exciting stuff you invest in

1764
01:06:39,113 --> 01:06:40,893
were not LPs in that fund, right?

1765
01:06:41,033 --> 01:06:41,613
You should join Fund 2.

1766
01:06:41,613 --> 01:06:43,633
Yeah, I can only blame myself.

1767
01:06:43,633 --> 01:06:44,753
I can only blame myself.

1768
01:06:44,893 --> 01:06:46,893
Well, Fund 2 is already closed, but I mean, I...

1769
01:06:46,893 --> 01:06:48,133
Sorry, this is not a SEC solicitation.

1770
01:06:48,133 --> 01:06:50,613
No talking SEC regulation, yeah, but like...

1771
01:06:50,613 --> 01:06:51,313
Non-solicitation.

1772
01:06:51,373 --> 01:06:54,213
All I hear is Fund 3 is going to be fire.

1773
01:06:56,053 --> 01:07:01,473
So let's say that Mesh LLM becomes very successful

1774
01:07:01,473 --> 01:07:03,573
And it's like an open source project.

1775
01:07:03,833 --> 01:07:05,093
There's no company behind it.

1776
01:07:05,653 --> 01:07:12,233
There's no business model other than each peer can make money by charging for their GPU.

1777
01:07:13,613 --> 01:07:20,833
Is that compatible with a vision from the open agents of the world in any commercial peer-to-peer network?

1778
01:07:21,093 --> 01:07:21,393
Yeah, totally.

1779
01:07:21,553 --> 01:07:23,453
I mean, I think there's a lot of different ways this could go.

1780
01:07:23,573 --> 01:07:24,693
I don't know exactly how it's going to go.

1781
01:07:24,773 --> 01:07:26,513
I mean, you could have a proprietary marketplace.

1782
01:07:26,733 --> 01:07:27,613
I don't think that's the right move.

1783
01:07:27,653 --> 01:07:29,173
I don't think that's what open agents wants either.

1784
01:07:29,173 --> 01:07:35,813
I think they want to build a, let's say, view and an interface around an open protocol.

1785
01:07:36,713 --> 01:07:38,033
And so I think we all want to open.

1786
01:07:38,093 --> 01:07:38,713
I want to open.

1787
01:07:39,913 --> 01:07:45,393
My kind of like take on this, a good way of thinking about this question is it would be

1788
01:07:45,393 --> 01:07:51,873
a little bit like saying, okay, you can use Bitcoin as an open protocol to like store your

1789
01:07:51,873 --> 01:07:52,833
wealth and send payments.

1790
01:07:52,993 --> 01:07:53,993
Do you really need block anymore?

1791
01:07:53,993 --> 01:08:00,493
and it's like well if you're like you know if you're the dude that's on his computer 24 7 and

1792
01:08:00,493 --> 01:08:04,153
can use the command line like probably not like you know unless he wants to interact with the

1793
01:08:04,153 --> 01:08:08,953
normal world but he's probably not doing that either um so he's good just bitcoin cli he's

1794
01:08:08,953 --> 01:08:14,993
ready to rock and roll uh for literally almost every other person on the planet yes and like i

1795
01:08:14,993 --> 01:08:20,313
think you're going to see there's always going to be opportunities to take open protocols and build

1796
01:08:20,313 --> 01:08:25,073
value-add services around them. What's open becomes a commoditized compliment. That becomes

1797
01:08:25,073 --> 01:08:30,073
commodity. But then there's always special things around it. One very obvious example. Say you're

1798
01:08:30,073 --> 01:08:34,873
using one of these marketplaces in the same way that Square does this, and you have a front row,

1799
01:08:34,973 --> 01:08:37,893
so you just make it easier for people to use this is one thing. It's like, okay, instead of having

1800
01:08:37,893 --> 01:08:42,433
to do the command line, just click a button or talk to your agent. It's just really, really simple.

1801
01:08:42,893 --> 01:08:46,893
But then maybe you don't make money on the marketplace itself. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

1802
01:08:46,893 --> 01:08:51,053
but then you make money on adjacent services. So the most obvious to me is banking, right? So let's

1803
01:08:51,053 --> 01:08:54,513
say, you know, you've got a fleet of AIs and they're all going to go out there. And I've talked

1804
01:08:54,513 --> 01:08:57,913
a little bit about this board. It's something I really want to invest in. If you're listening to

1805
01:08:57,913 --> 01:09:01,593
this, maybe you're working on one of these protocols already and you have this idea.

1806
01:09:01,673 --> 01:09:05,813
This is one thing I want to invest in. How do you bank these ideas? So in the same way that

1807
01:09:05,813 --> 01:09:11,493
Cash App generates a, you know, well, Square lenders or whatever generates a credit score

1808
01:09:11,493 --> 01:09:14,853
that's better than FICO for the lender because they have access to all their data, right? So

1809
01:09:14,853 --> 01:09:16,513
They can say, oh, you know, small business.

1810
01:09:16,813 --> 01:09:17,773
We know it's Christmas time.

1811
01:09:17,813 --> 01:09:18,793
We know you're going to be in a crunch.

1812
01:09:18,913 --> 01:09:20,633
Here's your extended loan and a better interest rate.

1813
01:09:20,673 --> 01:09:21,273
We have better data.

1814
01:09:21,693 --> 01:09:22,833
Then they're going to do that for Cash App,

1815
01:09:22,913 --> 01:09:24,113
better FICO score, amazing.

1816
01:09:24,473 --> 01:09:25,293
Who's going to do that for agents?

1817
01:09:25,793 --> 01:09:27,973
So for agents, like I've got this giant fleet of agents

1818
01:09:27,973 --> 01:09:29,673
that you need to use this open network,

1819
01:09:29,873 --> 01:09:32,013
but because I have all this data from my interface,

1820
01:09:32,153 --> 01:09:33,493
I'm going to make you a loan, Mr. Agent.

1821
01:09:33,593 --> 01:09:35,173
I'm going to underwrite you better than anyone else

1822
01:09:35,173 --> 01:09:37,073
because I have proprietary data

1823
01:09:37,073 --> 01:09:39,553
and the other scarce resource, which is capital.

1824
01:09:39,933 --> 01:09:41,413
And the other potential scarce resource,

1825
01:09:41,593 --> 01:09:42,973
which is I kissed the ring

1826
01:09:42,973 --> 01:09:44,253
and the government will let me do this.

1827
01:09:44,253 --> 01:09:50,333
So the short answer is, I want it to be open protocol, permissionless, open to everyone,

1828
01:09:50,773 --> 01:09:53,233
and there will still be opportunities to build massive companies.

1829
01:09:53,653 --> 01:09:54,453
Yeah, I agree with you.

1830
01:09:55,113 --> 01:10:00,513
In which case, the open agents of the world should, well, to the degree that Mesh LLM

1831
01:10:00,513 --> 01:10:05,973
becomes successful or some other network, then they should, it's in their interest.

1832
01:10:06,173 --> 01:10:08,693
I mean, it's in their interest for a network to take off.

1833
01:10:08,693 --> 01:10:11,453
the probability

1834
01:10:11,453 --> 01:10:13,393
of one taking off

1835
01:10:13,393 --> 01:10:14,313
is greater I think

1836
01:10:14,313 --> 01:10:14,993
with an open

1837
01:10:14,993 --> 01:10:25,800
permissionless network and they can profit the way you just talked about I think one of the biggest constraints to this idea of working is really how do you generate the demand

1838
01:10:26,060 --> 01:10:26,120
Like,

1839
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:27,220
how do you go find the demand?

1840
01:10:27,499 --> 01:10:27,600
Yeah.

1841
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:27,900
So,

1842
01:10:28,020 --> 01:10:28,120
like,

1843
01:10:28,180 --> 01:10:28,360
if,

1844
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:28,959
if,

1845
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,140
I haven't talked to

1846
01:10:31,140 --> 01:10:32,620
Christopher in a while,

1847
01:10:32,700 --> 01:10:32,900
but,

1848
01:10:32,999 --> 01:10:34,160
if I were sort of

1849
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:35,020
talking through with him,

1850
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:35,980
I'd want to understand

1851
01:10:35,980 --> 01:10:37,120
who do you expect

1852
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:38,220
are the first 10

1853
01:10:38,220 --> 01:10:38,920
or 100 users

1854
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:39,940
or maybe already has them.

1855
01:10:40,060 --> 01:10:40,260
Right.

1856
01:10:40,420 --> 01:10:40,640
But,

1857
01:10:40,999 --> 01:10:41,200
is,

1858
01:10:41,620 --> 01:10:42,220
can you go out

1859
01:10:42,220 --> 01:10:43,020
to an enterprise

1860
01:10:43,020 --> 01:10:44,020
that values

1861
01:10:44,020 --> 01:10:47,280
you know, maybe async,

1862
01:10:47,380 --> 01:10:49,080
maybe it doesn't have to be a real-time inference,

1863
01:10:49,340 --> 01:10:51,459
but values some sort of async inference,

1864
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:53,459
but needs it really, really cheap.

1865
01:10:54,140 --> 01:10:55,480
Maybe it doesn't have to be interactive,

1866
01:10:55,620 --> 01:10:57,320
but it needs to come back in 10 or 20 minutes.

1867
01:10:57,700 --> 01:10:59,660
That might actually be a new set of trade-offs

1868
01:10:59,660 --> 01:11:01,680
that's kind of underserved at the price point,

1869
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:03,980
but I think it takes a little bit of like shoe leather

1870
01:11:03,980 --> 01:11:05,280
to go find those.

1871
01:11:05,780 --> 01:11:07,720
Maybe it's research, maybe it's commercial,

1872
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:08,680
maybe it's enterprise.

1873
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,160
Do you have like any first ideas that jump to mind?

1874
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:13,940
Or if you were trying to answer that question,

1875
01:11:14,020 --> 01:11:14,560
where would you start?

1876
01:11:14,860 --> 01:11:17,340
I would guess like the large,

1877
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:18,980
all the big companies you've heard of,

1878
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:20,180
you know, OpenAI, Anthropic,

1879
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:21,760
like they're just flush with cash.

1880
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:22,640
They don't really,

1881
01:11:22,959 --> 01:11:24,200
probably not going to be super like

1882
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:25,400
responsive to that,

1883
01:11:25,480 --> 01:11:25,900
but maybe there's-

1884
01:11:25,900 --> 01:11:26,499
Unless you have a podcast.

1885
01:11:28,499 --> 01:11:29,920
Maybe there's, you know,

1886
01:11:29,940 --> 01:11:32,180
maybe there's like a university research group

1887
01:11:32,180 --> 01:11:35,160
that has applied for funding grants,

1888
01:11:35,180 --> 01:11:36,380
but is not flush with cash

1889
01:11:36,380 --> 01:11:37,560
the way commercial stuff is.

1890
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:37,920
Yeah.

1891
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:38,600
Maybe they'd be,

1892
01:11:38,980 --> 01:11:39,940
they want to do more,

1893
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:42,020
but they just don't want to do it

1894
01:11:42,020 --> 01:11:43,260
at the price points required.

1895
01:11:43,499 --> 01:11:43,620
Yeah.

1896
01:11:43,620 --> 01:11:46,220
But if you can change that by 10x or 100x,

1897
01:11:46,700 --> 01:11:48,640
maybe that's a good place to go hunting.

1898
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:49,780
It's a good idea, actually.

1899
01:11:49,940 --> 01:11:53,240
Or commercial, you know, think about commercial entities.

1900
01:11:53,420 --> 01:11:54,480
I haven't really done the list,

1901
01:11:54,480 --> 01:11:55,999
but actually I would brainstorm this with

1902
01:11:55,999 --> 01:11:58,920
Gemini, Gemma, whatever, your favorite.

1903
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:02,160
But like what are the list of potential

1904
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:03,540
like prospective customers,

1905
01:12:03,780 --> 01:12:06,499
who would value the things that this network

1906
01:12:06,499 --> 01:12:09,900
uniquely does that like traditional ones do not?

1907
01:12:09,999 --> 01:12:13,060
I think about service series Val, Val AI.

1908
01:12:13,620 --> 01:12:16,200
I've used it via an API.

1909
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:17,140
It's a really nice place

1910
01:12:17,140 --> 01:12:18,520
if you want to try out a bunch of models.

1911
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:19,520
You want to see what all the,

1912
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:21,400
some new open source Chinese model is,

1913
01:12:21,459 --> 01:12:23,480
but you don't want to set it up,

1914
01:12:23,580 --> 01:12:24,400
install it, whatever.

1915
01:12:24,620 --> 01:12:25,040
Get malware.

1916
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:27,660
You can just use it on FAL.

1917
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:29,120
And they've got a little playground.

1918
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:29,680
You can use it.

1919
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:30,959
You can use it with an API token.

1920
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:34,180
You pay them a few cents per API request.

1921
01:12:34,180 --> 01:12:35,400
So you're paying for something

1922
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:36,260
that's otherwise free,

1923
01:12:36,499 --> 01:12:37,800
but they manage all the inference

1924
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:39,080
and they manage the models

1925
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:40,940
and they kind of become a great place

1926
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:43,180
to just be able to get your experience

1927
01:12:43,620 --> 01:12:46,640
experience with these models. And if you like one, you could use it there and you can do it at scale

1928
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:51,080
there if you want, but you don't necessarily, you get to explore a lot and it's a huge business.

1929
01:12:51,340 --> 01:12:55,880
Yeah. My buddy John gave me an interesting use case as well. I was like, imagine you're like

1930
01:12:55,880 --> 01:13:02,260
a clothes business. I've been introduced lately, both the lady that used to live in my apartment

1931
01:13:02,260 --> 01:13:06,499
before me just gets like an onslaught of clothes catalogs. Like it's literally a DDoS town in my

1932
01:13:06,499 --> 01:13:11,720
mailbox and I can't stop. It's absolutely horrible. And in some recent discussions with Anjali,

1933
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:17,820
I've realized, like, I did not understand, I think, what percentage of GDP is just like

1934
01:13:17,820 --> 01:13:19,780
shopping.

1935
01:13:20,380 --> 01:13:22,900
Like, just like a lot of people.

1936
01:13:23,140 --> 01:13:24,400
What percent is not shopping?

1937
01:13:24,700 --> 01:13:29,300
Well, let's put it this way, like, clothes and shoes.

1938
01:13:29,480 --> 01:13:31,360
And I was just like, and man, the price tag.

1939
01:13:31,620 --> 01:13:32,540
Are you?

1940
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:40,300
But anyways, I got swag, one of a kind, baby.

1941
01:13:40,300 --> 01:13:40,760
end of one

1942
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:41,280
end of one

1943
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:41,940
anyways

1944
01:13:41,940 --> 01:13:42,420
it's just

1945
01:13:42,420 --> 01:13:43,800
it blows my mind

1946
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:44,220
but

1947
01:13:44,220 --> 01:13:45,680
yeah anyway

1948
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:45,959
Steve

1949
01:13:45,959 --> 01:13:46,720
Steve and I

1950
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:47,080
were just talking

1951
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:47,300
yesterday

1952
01:13:47,300 --> 01:13:48,020
he just did a big

1953
01:13:48,020 --> 01:13:49,040
clothes refresh

1954
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:49,400
yes

1955
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:50,920
I mentioned October

1956
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:51,780
this is October

1957
01:13:51,780 --> 01:13:51,999
okay

1958
01:13:51,999 --> 01:13:52,360
yeah

1959
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,020
so you're part of the

1960
01:13:54,020 --> 01:13:54,880
you're part of the problem

1961
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:56,220
yeah I'm part of the problem

1962
01:13:56,220 --> 01:13:57,420
I paid up for this

1963
01:13:57,420 --> 01:13:58,240
but yeah

1964
01:13:58,240 --> 01:13:59,660
as DK knows

1965
01:13:59,660 --> 01:14:00,300
every decade

1966
01:14:00,300 --> 01:14:01,459
I go clothes shopping

1967
01:14:01,459 --> 01:14:01,740
okay

1968
01:14:01,740 --> 01:14:02,760
well what's a decade

1969
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:03,520
I said it's time to go

1970
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:04,580
and then it just goes on

1971
01:14:04,580 --> 01:14:04,820
and it was time to go

1972
01:14:04,820 --> 01:14:05,060
yeah

1973
01:14:05,060 --> 01:14:05,860
because I literally

1974
01:14:05,860 --> 01:14:06,440
was looking at

1975
01:14:06,440 --> 01:14:07,240
some of the clothes

1976
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:07,640
I'm wearing

1977
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:08,100
and they're like

1978
01:14:08,100 --> 01:14:09,600
10, 15, 20 years old

1979
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:11,300
but it's like boiling the frog

1980
01:14:11,300 --> 01:14:13,440
you don't really notice the degradation

1981
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:15,760
and the quality of the clothes until you buy new clothes

1982
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:16,640
and it's like oh wow

1983
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:18,380
I was missing out

1984
01:14:18,380 --> 01:14:20,140
this is why it's always tough for me to understand

1985
01:14:20,140 --> 01:14:21,680
certain normie behaviors

1986
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:23,260
I can't fathom

1987
01:14:23,260 --> 01:14:26,320
other people actually go clothes shopping

1988
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:28,640
more frequently than every decade

1989
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:30,080
and enjoy it

1990
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,060
it's like a casual

1991
01:14:32,060 --> 01:14:33,400
you just browse things

1992
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,900
I can see you do a lot of that too

1993
01:14:36,900 --> 01:14:38,760
well that's the funny thing

1994
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:39,560
Everybody's always laughing.

1995
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:40,880
Like the stuff that I'm doing.

1996
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:41,780
You actually do do that?

1997
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:42,200
No, no.

1998
01:14:42,420 --> 01:14:44,840
It's like my, this is like free at a conference.

1999
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,340
This is like, I think my wife or mother-in-law or somebody.

2000
01:14:49,020 --> 01:14:51,300
Like everything I have is just like showed up somehow.

2001
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:53,040
She shows up.

2002
01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:56,020
It was all like a gift or leftovers.

2003
01:14:56,380 --> 01:14:56,620
Elves.

2004
01:14:56,620 --> 01:14:58,060
She found it at the park.

2005
01:14:58,220 --> 01:14:59,499
It was left behind by someone.

2006
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:00,200
Goodwill.

2007
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:03,360
Anyways, but that's, that's a joke.

2008
01:15:03,459 --> 01:15:03,800
But okay.

2009
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:05,820
So imagine one of these clothes companies.

2010
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,499
Like, I don't know, Ralph Lauren.

2011
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:15,720
and you know there's like probably like an infinite number of experiments they could run that could

2012
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:19,820
make the money but there's like certain like okay if you're going to a company you're like use ai

2013
01:15:19,820 --> 01:15:24,700
like everyone's like i'm gonna use ai because it's the hot thing if you can say i'm gonna cut jobs

2014
01:15:24,700 --> 01:15:30,040
and save money for better or for worse that's gonna sell immediately people are like great

2015
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:38,240
that's free money i get it if you're like we have a new uh a new friday yeah maybe we should close

2016
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:40,320
that. But if you

2017
01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:42,520
believe that this is

2018
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:44,080
all real, guys.

2019
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:45,959
Not blue screen, not AI.

2020
01:15:46,100 --> 01:15:48,200
Proof that we keep this thing, you know, we keep

2021
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,100
this thing 100. Like, there's no $100 million

2022
01:15:50,100 --> 01:15:51,100
investment happening here.

2023
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:53,600
Can't afford an air conditioner.

2024
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,160
It is fucking hot, given that

2025
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:58,080
I was not feeling well last week.

2026
01:15:59,300 --> 01:16:00,140
This is a family

2027
01:16:00,140 --> 01:16:00,900
friendly show.

2028
01:16:01,860 --> 01:16:03,580
No, it's not. This guy's...

2029
01:16:03,580 --> 01:16:06,300
What did I say? I think our YouTube channel

2030
01:16:06,300 --> 01:16:08,040
has... You've actually done a really good job not

2031
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:13,120
dropping the f-bomb no he's not yeah but you just dropped it earlier in the episode wow oh really

2032
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:18,120
yeah we'll search this is yeah okay number two number two this show dk is the inappropriate one

2033
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:25,959
on this episode shit he's gonna whip out me next like what is this about anyhow um so but but you

2034
01:16:25,959 --> 01:16:31,459
can imagine any of these like stores you could be like listen guys um this will make you get

2035
01:16:31,459 --> 01:16:36,260
guaranteed money you'll pay up for you'll play the cloud price to just like save 50 okay cool

2036
01:16:36,260 --> 01:16:42,999
you could also be like, hey, what if we created for every single customer a personalized lookbook?

2037
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:46,700
And it's just like maybe like a photo of Steve is like aspirational. It's like, you too could

2038
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:52,220
look like this. And then we customize them and like run lots of A-B testing with many different

2039
01:16:52,220 --> 01:16:55,920
outfits, right? And get people excited and they, you know, they want to spend their money, et cetera,

2040
01:16:55,999 --> 01:17:01,340
et cetera. You know, that may work. It may not work. It's probably going to work a little bit.

2041
01:17:01,340 --> 01:17:04,580
Maybe it moves revenue 2%, right?

2042
01:17:04,999 --> 01:17:06,540
2% is good, but you're not going to pay

2043
01:17:06,540 --> 01:17:07,560
like anthropic models.

2044
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:09,600
So maybe there's a market for these kind of

2045
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:10,840
just like long-term experiments.

2046
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:13,160
Hot or not, but for shopping or something?

2047
01:17:13,740 --> 01:17:16,920
I wonder if there's actually more reality to this

2048
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,540
than you are even laughing quite a bit.

2049
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,560
Do you even know what Hot or Not is?

2050
01:17:21,660 --> 01:17:22,540
Yeah, it's on Facebook started.

2051
01:17:23,459 --> 01:17:24,220
Sort of.

2052
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:24,600
Right?

2053
01:17:24,940 --> 01:17:25,840
It was part of the inside.

2054
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:27,540
A guy we know started it.

2055
01:17:28,100 --> 01:17:29,280
Hot or not.com.

2056
01:17:30,060 --> 01:17:30,660
Oh, yeah.

2057
01:17:30,660 --> 01:17:31,760
It's not what...

2058
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:32,780
It's not what...

2059
01:17:32,780 --> 01:17:34,240
This is actually a product,

2060
01:17:34,620 --> 01:17:35,520
hot or not.

2061
01:17:35,620 --> 01:17:35,860
Got it.

2062
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:36,020
Okay.

2063
01:17:36,340 --> 01:17:38,920
It actually was post-Facebook, right?

2064
01:17:39,220 --> 01:17:39,400
Yeah.

2065
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:40,420
Well, it was pre-Facebook.

2066
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:41,480
Really?

2067
01:17:41,660 --> 01:17:42,480
When did James do it?

2068
01:17:42,740 --> 01:17:45,800
I want to say 2001 or something.

2069
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:46,360
Wow.

2070
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:48,080
And Facebook was 2004.

2071
01:17:48,260 --> 01:17:49,280
I want to say it was a few years.

2072
01:17:49,380 --> 01:17:50,400
It was basically the advent,

2073
01:17:50,700 --> 01:17:53,459
when digital cameras started really becoming popular.

2074
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:55,400
It's like upload a photo

2075
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,260
and you rank it one through 10.

2076
01:17:57,499 --> 01:17:59,020
Yeah, I'm sure there was no spam on that side.

2077
01:17:59,020 --> 01:18:01,520
did he raise venture capital for this?

2078
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:01,880
No, no

2079
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:03,540
he just generated a lot of cash

2080
01:18:03,540 --> 01:18:04,240
for a bunch of years

2081
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:05,240
with as?

2082
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:06,560
oh yeah

2083
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:07,440
you could like sign up

2084
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:08,240
and have a subscription

2085
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:09,499
if you want to see

2086
01:18:09,499 --> 01:18:10,420
how people rate you

2087
01:18:10,420 --> 01:18:10,940
or something

2088
01:18:10,940 --> 01:18:12,020
I don't remember all the mechanics

2089
01:18:12,020 --> 01:18:12,940
you know he went to high school

2090
01:18:12,940 --> 01:18:13,640
with Mark and Mike

2091
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:14,540
oh I didn't know that

2092
01:18:14,540 --> 01:18:14,700
yeah

2093
01:18:14,700 --> 01:18:16,100
but he spun

2094
01:18:16,100 --> 01:18:16,499
and

2095
01:18:16,499 --> 01:18:19,200
with his ski sisters

2096
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:19,640
oh

2097
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,140
he spun a bunch of

2098
01:18:21,140 --> 01:18:22,420
they all went to Palo Alto High

2099
01:18:22,420 --> 01:18:23,580
a bunch of cool stuff

2100
01:18:23,580 --> 01:18:24,180
out of that

2101
01:18:24,180 --> 01:18:25,720
like the Hot or Not thing

2102
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:26,860
was kind of an incubator

2103
01:18:26,860 --> 01:18:27,520
for a while

2104
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:28,499
and he

2105
01:18:28,499 --> 01:18:33,720
I think actually, was it maybe Steve Chen worked out of the incubator

2106
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:37,640
and did like a pre-YouTube video thing out of there.

2107
01:18:38,380 --> 01:18:43,820
He also did a bunch of like kind of cool internet things,

2108
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:47,920
none of which caught on, but were kind of like in the vibe

2109
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:49,720
of what was about to happen, you know?

2110
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:54,380
We should start a new PBJ offshoot show, like the History Channel.

2111
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:55,120
Yeah, I love it.

2112
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:55,640
Oh, I love it.

2113
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:58,600
the history of startups and technology.

2114
01:18:59,140 --> 01:19:00,420
My elders educate me.

2115
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:01,880
What came before?

2116
01:19:03,460 --> 01:19:06,540
They educate me on the techniques of the Holonet.

2117
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:12,960
Idea, actually, Vibe good.

2118
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:13,580
Maybe we do this.

2119
01:19:13,940 --> 01:19:14,580
Bot or not?

2120
01:19:14,820 --> 01:19:15,540
Has someone done this yet?

2121
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:16,820
And he's like, hot or not?

2122
01:19:16,860 --> 01:19:18,520
But then you have to decide, is it real or is it a bot?

2123
01:19:19,100 --> 01:19:20,240
Yeah, there you go.

2124
01:19:20,399 --> 01:19:20,860
Good brand.

2125
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:21,899
I like the brand name.

2126
01:19:21,899 --> 01:19:22,380
Bot or not?

2127
01:19:22,860 --> 01:19:23,460
Brand is good.

2128
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:26,200
Okay, but you were saying this thing has legs.

2129
01:19:26,780 --> 01:19:28,840
Or as they would say in the South, that dog will hunt.

2130
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:29,560
Which one?

2131
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:31,520
The idea of like the clothes people.

2132
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:31,800
Oh, yeah.

2133
01:19:31,899 --> 01:19:35,420
So I was going to say, did you see this news,

2134
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:36,360
I think it just came out yesterday,

2135
01:19:36,420 --> 01:19:42,620
about this guy who basically did like a GLP-1 lead gen service with AI?

2136
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:43,999
No.

2137
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:46,700
But that's extremely related to what I'm saying, actually.

2138
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:47,140
Interesting.

2139
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,140
Well, I think the story, and I've seen the headlines,

2140
01:19:50,220 --> 01:19:51,300
I haven't read in depth,

2141
01:19:51,300 --> 01:19:57,399
But I think, you know, there was this bet that I think Sam Altman had made with some group of friends.

2142
01:19:57,499 --> 01:20:04,460
It was like, you know, that, you know, we're within a year or two, we're going to have the first single creator billion dollar company.

2143
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:06,420
Oh, yeah. I agree with that 100%.

2144
01:20:06,420 --> 01:20:09,920
Well, this is the first kind of evidence that we have.

2145
01:20:09,999 --> 01:20:11,600
He made a billion dollars in GLP lead?

2146
01:20:11,980 --> 01:20:19,399
I think he basically had like Claude and whatever build a bunch of like landing pages and creative copy.

2147
01:20:19,399 --> 01:20:21,499
He didn't buy good stuff, but he used AI tools to build.

2148
01:20:21,999 --> 01:20:23,600
I don't want to actually say this one.

2149
01:20:23,660 --> 01:20:26,260
Normally, I give away all my ideas, but actually, it just struck me.

2150
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:29,320
I know exactly what I can go home and buy good this weekend

2151
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:30,960
that will also just print.

2152
01:20:31,220 --> 01:20:32,520
It's a t-shirt shop, isn't it?

2153
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:32,920
No.

2154
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:34,300
Much better.

2155
01:20:35,980 --> 01:20:37,999
But I think he got it to...

2156
01:20:37,999 --> 01:20:38,999
I've never seen Max taking notes.

2157
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:40,640
This must be big.

2158
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:40,780
This must be big.

2159
01:20:40,940 --> 01:20:41,700
This is very big.

2160
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:43,060
But I think it got to...

2161
01:20:43,060 --> 01:20:46,700
Did I see $418 million in revenue in the first year?

2162
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:48,700
Or year two.

2163
01:20:48,700 --> 01:20:50,780
And it's only 18 months old, and then he hired his brother.

2164
01:20:50,940 --> 01:20:53,280
So technically, it's not a single-person company.

2165
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,999
I mean, the TLDR is just like, find a high-value ticket item,

2166
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:58,660
a high-ticket item, do lead gen.

2167
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:00,720
And if you're running a whole bunch of experiments,

2168
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:01,420
maybe you don't want to list your classes.

2169
01:21:01,420 --> 01:21:03,520
You can experiment faster than traditional marketers.

2170
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:04,160
And I forget, what are you selling?

2171
01:21:05,300 --> 01:21:05,960
GLP-1s.

2172
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,980
I think it's like a GLP-1 lead gen to the actual,

2173
01:21:09,420 --> 01:21:11,360
whatever the physician or clinic.

2174
01:21:11,460 --> 01:21:12,540
It's like telehealth.

2175
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:14,820
You acquire the lead, and then there's somebody else

2176
01:21:14,820 --> 01:21:15,820
who actually services it.

2177
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:18,600
So it's not like he's solving,

2178
01:21:18,700 --> 01:21:20,660
health. He's doing lead gen for

2179
01:21:20,660 --> 01:21:22,120
other companies that are solving health.

2180
01:21:22,899 --> 01:21:24,840
Obviously, that's... Oh, does that explain

2181
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:25,740
why I saw the

2182
01:21:25,740 --> 01:21:28,740
Viagra Legion on your website?

2183
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:30,480
On your computer earlier? Is that

2184
01:21:30,480 --> 01:21:31,240
what you were doing?

2185
01:21:32,060 --> 01:21:33,399
Just some research, you know.

2186
01:21:34,620 --> 01:21:36,540
Sorry, that was using Claude.

2187
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:38,540
BTC Moon guys

2188
01:21:38,540 --> 01:21:40,300
says, great show, guys. Thanks.

2189
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:42,360
So, we appreciate the comment.

2190
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:44,020
Thank you. I thought he was saying

2191
01:21:44,020 --> 01:21:45,620
you've overstayed your welcome.

2192
01:21:46,620 --> 01:21:46,920
Thank you.

2193
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:47,640
Thank you.

2194
01:21:48,899 --> 01:21:50,760
This guy comes all the time.

2195
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:53,440
I always appreciate your comment, BTC Moon guy,

2196
01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:54,399
that we're jamming.

2197
01:21:54,480 --> 01:21:55,999
Yes, we are, in fact, jamming right here.

2198
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:56,800
We're always jamming.

2199
01:21:57,080 --> 01:21:57,200
Yeah.

2200
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:00,300
And Matt, Ote, and Vinny.

2201
01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:01,320
Jesse, Vinny.

2202
01:22:01,499 --> 01:22:02,899
We got some diehards.

2203
01:22:03,100 --> 01:22:03,580
Much love to all you guys.

2204
01:22:03,580 --> 01:22:07,980
People want to hear about the Bitcoin Core privacy win,

2205
01:22:08,300 --> 01:22:10,200
which I'm eager to share.

2206
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:10,880
How many minutes we got?

2207
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:11,520
We contain him.

2208
01:22:11,700 --> 01:22:12,280
Yeah, I don't know.

2209
01:22:12,340 --> 01:22:13,180
We got to contain him.

2210
01:22:13,300 --> 01:22:14,460
We got to keep the ethos.

2211
01:22:14,499 --> 01:22:15,580
Guys, if you subscribe,

2212
01:22:15,580 --> 01:22:19,660
If you subscribe to the Bitcoin channel, there's an additional show afterwards.

2213
01:22:19,899 --> 01:22:22,260
It's from a spiral grantee as well.

2214
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:23,220
So there's that.

2215
01:22:23,380 --> 01:22:29,580
Or we can talk about more block stuff, which is like AGI.

2216
01:22:29,980 --> 01:22:31,660
Companies are going to become mini AGI.

2217
01:22:31,660 --> 01:22:32,280
I think that's pretty interesting.

2218
01:22:32,300 --> 01:22:32,580
I think that's a topic.

2219
01:22:32,580 --> 01:22:33,899
Hierarchy to intelligence.

2220
01:22:34,260 --> 01:22:34,800
Let's talk about it.

2221
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,140
Do you want to give the setup for it?

2222
01:22:38,440 --> 01:22:38,780
Nope.

2223
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:39,880
Why don't you set us up?

2224
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:40,120
Okay.

2225
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:41,680
I read the piece.

2226
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:51,960
It was a piece written, I think it was actually written by Jack Dorsey and Roloff Botta, who's the venture investor from Sequoia who invested in the first round of Square.

2227
01:22:52,340 --> 01:22:52,960
And it's still on the board.

2228
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:53,340
Yeah.

2229
01:22:53,560 --> 01:23:06,080
So I thought even that detail alone kind of struck me because it's like, it's not just showing where Block is moving, but it actually is maybe a little bit of a broader industry commentary was kind of what I took that double byline to mean.

2230
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:14,200
and you know i i think it's worth reading because it kind of goes through the um you know kind of

2231
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:19,560
the history of organizations and how almost like i don't know if they mentioned like the joint

2232
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:25,740
stock corporation but they sort of talk about how hierarchies help information flow and look at it

2233
01:23:25,740 --> 01:23:31,160
like a war military context and corporation context and how like so much of the reason that

2234
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:35,240
we have hierarchies for organizations is just really around the friction and information flow

2235
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:52,080
And so this is an idea that instead of, you know, instead of people being kind of these hubs of information flow, you can actually structure an organization so that the information flow happens among the agents and the people are sort of sitting outside in service to guide and direct the agents.

2236
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:54,980
but the organization itself is kind of a collection of agents.

2237
01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:58,460
And it's not really about take a certain person's role

2238
01:23:58,460 --> 01:23:59,620
and replace it with agents,

2239
01:23:59,740 --> 01:24:01,620
but it's take all of the information flow

2240
01:24:01,620 --> 01:24:04,540
and get that all working kind of at the center of the thing.

2241
01:24:04,580 --> 01:24:07,020
And all the people are at the kind of periphery,

2242
01:24:07,100 --> 01:24:11,180
kind of the frontier, guiding, directing, orchestrating agents.

2243
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:15,180
But that's kind of the future of, I think, Block,

2244
01:24:15,260 --> 01:24:16,760
they call it, I think, like a mini AGI.

2245
01:24:17,420 --> 01:24:19,580
And I think when, I think you shared it,

2246
01:24:19,580 --> 01:24:22,360
And I was like, to me, this screams yes.

2247
01:24:22,480 --> 01:24:25,300
This is like, this is the future of all white collar work.

2248
01:24:25,420 --> 01:24:27,280
It's not unemployment for everybody.

2249
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:29,980
It's like orchestration of agents.

2250
01:24:30,140 --> 01:24:33,720
But if you're a coder, it's obvious to you that you should be doing this.

2251
01:24:34,100 --> 01:24:37,700
But maybe if you're a marketer, you know, you're not thinking about the world this way.

2252
01:24:37,740 --> 01:24:39,740
You're thinking about like the activities you've done in the past.

2253
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:44,480
You know, write a blog post, you know, contact a business development partner, whatever.

2254
01:24:44,480 --> 01:24:52,680
Those kinds of things can be enabled, empowered, and scaled much better if you understand how to do these agents.

2255
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:54,220
I've actually, yeah, go ahead.

2256
01:24:54,940 --> 01:24:59,320
Well, and also just reducing friction on information flow, right?

2257
01:24:59,460 --> 01:25:06,660
I mean, whatever role you're in at a company, you often, like if you're in marketing or business development,

2258
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:10,499
you might have questions that you historically ask the engineers or a PM,

2259
01:25:10,780 --> 01:25:13,440
and you can't really effectively do your job until you have that knowledge.

2260
01:25:13,440 --> 01:25:14,660
and then you try to

2261
01:25:14,660 --> 01:25:15,800
in a large corporation

2262
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:17,160
you suffer the problems

2263
01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:17,780
of like okay

2264
01:25:17,780 --> 01:25:19,260
we'll schedule a meeting

2265
01:25:19,260 --> 01:25:20,800
and you try to schedule a meeting

2266
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:21,640
holy shit

2267
01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:22,200
is it hard

2268
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:23,760
to schedule a meeting

2269
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:25,060
at a large company

2270
01:25:25,060 --> 01:25:25,999
because

2271
01:25:25,999 --> 01:25:26,499
the

2272
01:25:26,499 --> 01:25:27,660
large company

2273
01:25:27,660 --> 01:25:28,399
you have more people

2274
01:25:28,399 --> 01:25:29,399
the more people involved

2275
01:25:29,399 --> 01:25:30,340
the probability

2276
01:25:30,340 --> 01:25:32,100
on any given day or week

2277
01:25:32,100 --> 01:25:33,200
that someone's out

2278
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:34,920
or they already have

2279
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:35,540
a ton of meetings

2280
01:25:35,540 --> 01:25:36,120
and

2281
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:37,180
crazy friction

2282
01:25:37,180 --> 01:25:38,120
right so at a startup

2283
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:38,820
like the three of us

2284
01:25:38,820 --> 01:25:39,560
are starting a company

2285
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:41,920
we can just meet right now

2286
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:42,340
it's like

2287
01:25:42,340 --> 01:25:43,180
if I have a problem

2288
01:25:43,180 --> 01:25:45,960
I'm going to go grab you guys and be like, let's solve this now.

2289
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:53,899
But at a bigger company, it's like, it's three weeks until I can find a 25-minute slot on everyone's calendar.

2290
01:25:54,420 --> 01:26:00,140
Well, what if I have this intelligence where the information I previously needed to ask PMs or engineers to get,

2291
01:26:00,399 --> 01:26:07,320
I can just ask the intelligence, ask the AI, and get like 90% of the time, get the right answer.

2292
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:09,880
or at least get 90% of the way there

2293
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:14,620
so that I ask the engineer over a text message

2294
01:26:14,620 --> 01:26:17,300
a much smarter, more pointed question

2295
01:26:17,300 --> 01:26:19,120
which can be answered asynchronously.

2296
01:26:19,580 --> 01:26:21,480
And so getting back, you know,

2297
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:24,360
Block did this layoff not too long ago

2298
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:26,280
and then there was this drama around,

2299
01:26:26,440 --> 01:26:29,520
is it really about AI or is it just BS

2300
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:30,660
because they were bloated or whatever?

2301
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:36,899
But again, you know, this hierarchy to intelligence

2302
01:26:36,899 --> 01:26:39,080
that's not just a PR move.

2303
01:26:39,180 --> 01:26:40,420
It's happening within Block.

2304
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:42,620
Like Block is using BuilderBot.

2305
01:26:43,020 --> 01:26:44,640
And BuilderBot is this intelligence

2306
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,360
that Block is building a world model,

2307
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:48,140
which gives you all this intelligence

2308
01:26:48,140 --> 01:26:48,840
at your fingertips.

2309
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:50,280
It's integrated into Slack.

2310
01:26:50,580 --> 01:26:52,020
Like you can literally ask

2311
01:26:52,020 --> 01:26:53,980
basically any question, get the answer.

2312
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:55,440
You can create PRs,

2313
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:57,240
much like we're doing with OriBot,

2314
01:26:57,340 --> 01:27:00,120
you can do within this 6,000 person company.

2315
01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:01,260
So it's very powerful.

2316
01:27:01,480 --> 01:27:03,080
What's an example of like,

2317
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:04,620
if you've seen one yet, maybe you haven't,

2318
01:27:04,620 --> 01:27:07,180
but like where this world model would slash me

2319
01:27:07,180 --> 01:27:09,300
or like speed things up?

2320
01:27:09,999 --> 01:27:11,340
Well, I mean, just my own,

2321
01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:13,640
I mean, I don't work on block products.

2322
01:27:13,740 --> 01:27:14,240
So I don't really,

2323
01:27:14,380 --> 01:27:15,700
I'm not really immersed in this world,

2324
01:27:15,700 --> 01:27:16,720
but just to play with it,

2325
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,800
I asked like for data around like,

2326
01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:21,100
you know, cash app,

2327
01:27:21,180 --> 01:27:22,640
like how many cash app customers,

2328
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:23,340
got it,

2329
01:27:23,620 --> 01:27:25,899
a non-zero balance in Bitcoin.

2330
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:26,280
Right.

2331
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:27,880
And I got, I got an answer

2332
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:30,820
and it also showed me like the SQL query that,

2333
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:31,820
you know, so, so if,

2334
01:27:32,340 --> 01:27:33,740
if I wanted to like vet it

2335
01:27:33,740 --> 01:27:39,560
And it also even recommended, here's the three people at the company you could go verify this with.

2336
01:27:39,860 --> 01:27:41,240
It was like super slick.

2337
01:27:41,260 --> 01:27:51,560
This is kind of a crazy idea, too, because like the information in an organization is often like has kind of intentional silos for certain aspects of the information.

2338
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:57,620
And how do you sort of rebuild an AI with the right permissions that can make the information flow?

2339
01:27:57,620 --> 01:28:03,020
I did test it to see if I could reveal stuff that shouldn't be revealed or like should there be access control.

2340
01:28:03,020 --> 01:28:05,260
and I get social security numbers.

2341
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:06,120
I didn't have that.

2342
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:07,399
I'm afraid to ask that question,

2343
01:28:07,540 --> 01:28:08,580
but, you know,

2344
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:09,700
just about like my own,

2345
01:28:09,700 --> 01:28:11,399
my own cash tags balance or whatever.

2346
01:28:11,440 --> 01:28:12,220
And it wouldn't tell me that.

2347
01:28:12,260 --> 01:28:13,120
So, I mean, like there's,

2348
01:28:13,180 --> 01:28:14,440
there's still guardrails in place,

2349
01:28:14,440 --> 01:28:15,999
but I just found like that,

2350
01:28:15,999 --> 01:28:16,540
that query,

2351
01:28:16,660 --> 01:28:18,700
it's the kind of thing where historically I,

2352
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:22,600
I would have to find out who is the right person

2353
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:24,899
or what's the right dashboard or whatever.

2354
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:27,160
And it's just such a burden here.

2355
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:28,499
I just ask a question,

2356
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:29,620
get an answer.

2357
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:31,820
And if I only need this,

2358
01:28:31,820 --> 01:28:38,220
you know and I didn't really need the answer so I didn't need to go vet it but if I if I'm like

2359
01:28:38,220 --> 01:28:42,440
gonna use this in a public report or something and you really want to make sure it's accurate

2360
01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:47,780
then it's just made it much easier to then verify either myself because I didn't look at the SQL

2361
01:28:47,780 --> 01:28:54,060
query or ask so and so which it told me to yeah I love all this and that's a good concrete example

2362
01:28:54,060 --> 01:28:57,360
but I think I mean in a lot of ways this is just saying like middle management no longer necessary

2363
01:28:57,360 --> 01:28:58,980
it's like you're either a builder

2364
01:28:58,980 --> 01:29:01,760
everyone's a builder

2365
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:02,980
which is what the

2366
01:29:02,980 --> 01:29:05,520
block is structuring around three different

2367
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:06,740
roles and

2368
01:29:06,740 --> 01:29:08,880
there's the individual contributor

2369
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:10,820
and then there's DRI

2370
01:29:10,820 --> 01:29:12,440
directly responsible individual

2371
01:29:12,440 --> 01:29:14,920
and then player coach and so player coach

2372
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:16,700
is the one that's still manager

2373
01:29:16,700 --> 01:29:17,660
like but

2374
01:29:17,660 --> 01:29:20,640
player is in the title

2375
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:22,520
like you're expected to contribute

2376
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:24,820
build and not like

2377
01:29:24,820 --> 01:29:26,300
in your 10% time but

2378
01:29:26,300 --> 01:29:28,120
like a substantial amount of your time.

2379
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:30,399
Seems like a win-win to me.

2380
01:29:30,399 --> 01:29:33,480
It's crazy, too, to think about, you know,

2381
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:35,980
Block is a, how many people were there, 6,000 now?

2382
01:29:36,340 --> 01:29:41,899
So it's a huge team to try to retool mid-flight, right?

2383
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:44,640
You've got the airplane already off the runway

2384
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:46,640
and you're traveling across the ocean

2385
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,560
and you're like, let's rebuild the airplane before we crash.

2386
01:29:49,999 --> 01:29:51,580
I think it's the right move,

2387
01:29:51,580 --> 01:29:57,460
but it's also hard to imagine how larger companies

2388
01:29:57,460 --> 01:29:59,120
and less tech-forward companies

2389
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:00,860
are ever going to make this transition.

2390
01:30:01,300 --> 01:30:05,020
Yeah, well, again, I mean, credit to Jack for doing this.

2391
01:30:05,100 --> 01:30:07,380
I mean, like, there's been periods of history

2392
01:30:07,380 --> 01:30:08,999
where people maybe criticize him

2393
01:30:08,999 --> 01:30:10,620
because he doesn't make decisions or whatever,

2394
01:30:10,700 --> 01:30:12,680
but I think, like, the past two to three years,

2395
01:30:12,740 --> 01:30:14,740
he's been making many decisions for Block,

2396
01:30:14,820 --> 01:30:16,360
and this is, like, a huge one.

2397
01:30:17,740 --> 01:30:20,780
My opinion, yeah, I mean, there's some risk with it,

2398
01:30:20,780 --> 01:30:25,660
But I think the risk of not doing this far exceeds the risk of taking this decision.

2399
01:30:25,660 --> 01:30:29,760
So it seems like a very strong decision.

2400
01:30:30,340 --> 01:30:35,660
Imagine what the blueprint of a new company being started today will look like.

2401
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,580
It will grow like this organically from day one.

2402
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:43,820
And everybody will be the IC, the DRI, or the player coach.

2403
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:45,160
That'll just be natural.

2404
01:30:45,300 --> 01:30:47,520
You just won't think to do something else.

2405
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:50,320
I also think it will help with recruiting.

2406
01:30:50,780 --> 01:30:58,880
So I'm currently trying to recruit a superstar engineer to join Block to work on important stuff.

2407
01:30:59,580 --> 01:31:08,700
And I think the pitch now, I called it super builder when I was, and he's like, oh, what's that?

2408
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:09,700
And I'm like, oh, I just made it up.

2409
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:12,600
But it sounds weird.

2410
01:31:13,380 --> 01:31:20,399
But I mean, I made up the term, but I think it's what's now possible at Block, which is, yes, you're an IC.

2411
01:31:20,780 --> 01:31:24,480
But that doesn't mean you're just told to stay in your corner

2412
01:31:24,480 --> 01:31:27,300
and work on your little pixel of the product or whatever.

2413
01:31:27,480 --> 01:31:27,960
Oh, I see.

2414
01:31:28,260 --> 01:31:33,200
It's like, no, you are empowered to do big things

2415
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:35,760
and really not have a bunch of stuff get in your way.

2416
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:38,420
Basically, the best engineers don't want to be micromanaged or slow down.

2417
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:45,260
And obviously, if you're launching a new financial product in CashEverSquare,

2418
01:31:45,499 --> 01:31:47,499
there's still got to be some checks and balances

2419
01:31:47,499 --> 01:31:49,520
with legal and compliance and stuff like that.

2420
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:53,960
but if you can eliminate 90% of the friction

2421
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:57,499
and really empower strong builders,

2422
01:31:58,040 --> 01:31:58,640
super builders,

2423
01:31:59,140 --> 01:32:01,960
I think that can be a really effective recruiting tool

2424
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:03,020
to attract great talent.

2425
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:03,280
For sure.

2426
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:05,640
I mean, one way I think about it to me

2427
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:07,320
it just feels like a new database in that sense.

2428
01:32:07,440 --> 01:32:08,140
Like you're literally just saying

2429
01:32:08,140 --> 01:32:09,520
we have like a new database,

2430
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:10,920
it's a new way of accessing it

2431
01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:12,960
and now people can like run experiments and do stuff.

2432
01:32:13,480 --> 01:32:14,560
And also it makes me think

2433
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:15,820
I know there's like another thread

2434
01:32:15,820 --> 01:32:16,720
that's a little bit tangential

2435
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:18,840
but like the whole like Elon Doge thing

2436
01:32:18,840 --> 01:32:19,220
with the government.

2437
01:32:19,340 --> 01:32:20,260
Like, imagine if you have, like,

2438
01:32:20,300 --> 01:32:20,980
just a little bot

2439
01:32:20,980 --> 01:32:21,620
doing all that

2440
01:32:21,620 --> 01:32:22,920
for all the government records, too.

2441
01:32:22,980 --> 01:32:24,360
Like, that could be...

2442
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:25,160
I mean, that's what I've said.

2443
01:32:25,399 --> 01:32:27,280
As much as you may...

2444
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:27,700
Pretty sweet.

2445
01:32:27,860 --> 01:32:28,780
You may have, like,

2446
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:30,160
a tribe here or there

2447
01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:30,920
in government

2448
01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:31,880
and you have a horse

2449
01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:32,940
in the race of politics.

2450
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:33,260
Yeah.

2451
01:32:33,260 --> 01:32:34,040
I think, ultimately,

2452
01:32:34,180 --> 01:32:35,580
the answer has got to be more...

2453
01:32:35,580 --> 01:32:35,760
Yeah.

2454
01:32:36,140 --> 01:32:37,620
The same concept applied

2455
01:32:37,620 --> 01:32:39,740
to, like, governance of a society.

2456
01:32:40,060 --> 01:32:41,100
I could not agree more.

2457
01:32:41,300 --> 01:32:41,700
And, like,

2458
01:32:42,020 --> 01:32:43,440
we're alive to watch it happen, gents.

2459
01:32:43,620 --> 01:32:43,960
Pretty cool.

2460
01:32:44,780 --> 01:32:45,180
Pretty cool.

2461
01:32:45,420 --> 01:32:46,940
Well, the Bitcoin core privacy

2462
01:32:46,940 --> 01:32:48,660
win, I will talk about

2463
01:32:48,660 --> 01:32:50,080
on a future episode.

2464
01:32:50,780 --> 01:32:51,399
Thank you, Austin.

2465
01:32:52,420 --> 01:32:54,220
I missed it, so you'll have to tell me after the show.

2466
01:32:54,899 --> 01:32:56,580
But just so people know,

2467
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:58,620
we've got some schedule updates.

2468
01:32:58,620 --> 01:32:59,600
So let's see.

2469
01:33:01,260 --> 01:33:03,620
We're not doing a show next week.

2470
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:04,020
That's right.

2471
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:04,600
Not at all.

2472
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,100
We are doing a show the following week,

2473
01:33:08,260 --> 01:33:09,240
but on Tuesday,

2474
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:12,240
which I think is April 14th, if I have it correct.

2475
01:33:12,460 --> 01:33:12,860
Sounds right.

2476
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:15,620
So noon Pacific, our usual time, but April 14th.

2477
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:17,220
Unless I'm convinced to change my plans

2478
01:33:17,220 --> 01:33:17,880
based on his visit.

2479
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:18,899
or something that happens.

2480
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:20,040
But it's still not so bad

2481
01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:20,480
to do it that

2482
01:33:20,480 --> 01:33:21,220
because since we're missing

2483
01:33:21,220 --> 01:33:21,680
next week.

2484
01:33:21,780 --> 01:33:22,620
So we have like

2485
01:33:22,620 --> 01:33:23,960
an extra 10 days

2486
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,220
of news and information.

2487
01:33:27,300 --> 01:33:28,260
And then, yeah.

2488
01:33:28,399 --> 01:33:30,340
So we will not do a show

2489
01:33:30,340 --> 01:33:30,860
next week.

2490
01:33:31,860 --> 01:33:32,620
April 14th

2491
01:33:32,620 --> 01:33:33,460
we'll be back.

2492
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:34,740
Back.

2493
01:33:35,940 --> 01:33:36,340
Yeah.

2494
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:37,720
Acquired at that point.

2495
01:33:38,499 --> 01:33:39,280
All righty.

2496
01:33:39,820 --> 01:33:40,100
All right.

2497
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:40,600
Is that it?

2498
01:33:40,700 --> 01:33:41,640
We're in a fancy new clothes.

2499
01:33:42,399 --> 01:33:43,120
Bye, guys.

2500
01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:43,820
Bye, everyone.

2501
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:44,520
Have a good weekend.

2502
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:45,100
Enjoy your vacations, yeah.