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All right, welcome to another edition of the Presidio Zcash Jam.

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I thought this was the Presidio Bitcoin view.

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Right, somebody was calling us for...

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That was the best comment we had on the show, where they compared us to the view, yet we

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don't do our fact checking, which maybe that's why they thought we're the view.

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Exactly, it was pretty funny.

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They're like, these clowns can't even look up the price of gold and they act like they're

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on the view.

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And you're right, it's kind of funny.

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The only question is, who's Whoopi?

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I don't even know.

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Do you guys feel like Whoopi?

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I only vaguely know that The View exists.

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I don't even know what it is.

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I don't know which character I want to.

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I don't either.

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I only know Whoopi and Rosie O'Donnell, so take your choice.

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All right, we're going to have to do our homework.

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All right, Whoopi, what do we got today?

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Whoopi, come on.

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I don't know if I'm

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I just don't even know

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I don't know that show

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I don't know what we're doing here

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but Bitcoin

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still rocking

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let's make it a more Bitcoin focused show

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this week instead of

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the Zcash plan that you

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we'll get into Zcash

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you're the one

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you said that all your Silicon Valley buddies

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are asking about Zcash

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so we'll have to talk about it

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I heard a rumor you went all in all on Zcash.

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I don't know if it's true.

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Not investment advice to dump all your Bitcoin for Zcash.

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Invest advice to not do that.

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Well, it's funny because I actually had a fairly prominent Silicon Valley investor buy here yesterday.

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And he was like, you know, oh, Bitcoin.

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Like, oh, I got some Bitcoin.

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I got some media.

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I'm like in the thing, but I don't really follow it.

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And then I said, oh, well, Presidio Bitcoin, like we actually, you should stick around for this evening because we're having a builder's jam.

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He's like, what is a builder's?

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I was like, oh, it's a thing we do, people building new products, new ideas, product people and other builders who are building things.

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And often it's related to Bitcoin.

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He's like, oh, do people even build stuff on Bitcoin?

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He's like, everybody I've seen is building on ETH and Solana and stuff.

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And I was like, OK, let's have the time.

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We got a ways to go.

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But I mean, I think that's exactly it.

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I sort of explain the open source nature of it.

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And you don't get to print new L1 tokens to distribute to people to build things.

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So like it's kind of unsurprising that we haven't seen a ton of the kind of energy that we see in those ecosystems here.

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But I think the stuff that we're doing at Builder, I think, is actually exactly is pitch perfect for what we need to do to attract and nurture and instigate this kind of ecosystem.

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What was his reaction? Like, was he curious? Was he in disbelief? Did he want to learn more?

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I think I mean, we we talked back and forth a bit about it.

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I wouldn't say he was in disbelief. I'd say he was curious. He was kind of like, oh, I didn't realize this kind of thing even existed or was happening or could be done on Bitcoin. And we ended up talking about stablecoins a bit. Because he was like, well, it seems like if payments is important, then stablecoins seems to be quite popular, which I agree with, that it is popular.

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But I think the idea of like, oh, new, you know, token issuance on ETH or Solana or something, it's like, I don't really care much about that.

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And I don't even feel like he really cares that much about that.

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So we didn't really get into that.

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But we talked about the neutrality a lot, which is what I value in Bitcoin is like no leader.

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That's cool.

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Yeah.

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But anyway, so.

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He wasn't able to stick around.

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He couldn't stick around for Builder.

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Neither did Max didn't stick around.

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guys i've been i've been i've been way too yeah i needed to chill last night but i want to hear

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all about it tell me what are you swimming or what i did no i like i i've been hustling way

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too hard we got a couple weeks well i don't want to i don't want to drop too much out but but

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until we're done with the next event uh yeah i'm i'm locked in i'm locked in max is actually

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max is actually working hard for once i am actually harder than i have in a long time

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let's go but it's gonna be fucking awesome i have more to tell you about that later but

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but yeah so anyways I needed to unplug

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but tell me what we learned

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last night what was the alpha

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I'll start but David attended episode 2

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so it was our fifth

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builder remember we had

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the idea of builder in this podcast back in

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June I think

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and then we've

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we made it happen so it's our fifth builder

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I thought tonight or last

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night was excellent

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maybe well it

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was different but it was definitely up there with

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it might have been the best one

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You're trying to make me FOMO.

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Yeah.

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I'd say it tied for first with some of the earlier ones.

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I actually missed last month because I was traveling in Berlin.

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So I can't judge that one.

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But last night, I think positives, we had four presenters.

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Nice.

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And all of them did well.

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And there was great crowd energy and participation.

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30 plus people.

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Oh, that's pretty big.

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All right.

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Good attendance and high quality folks and also a majority, maybe, I don't know, 18 to 20 is their first time.

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Oh, wow.

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So there's good and bad news of that.

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So it's great to get new people out for sure.

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That's great.

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And they seemed like they belong there.

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They seemed like they enjoyed it.

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So we'd love to have them come back.

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But the bad news is like, well, we must not have very good retention because we didn't have a lot of people who come to the previous one.

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So I don't know if that's a scheduling issue or what, but we'll have to pay attention to that.

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Just out of curiosity, for these 20 or so new people, what was your sort of profile and how did they hear about it or Bitcoin Builder?

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Didn't really ask the last one, but although we previously have learned that we're using Luma now for invites.

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and like that seems

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like it's relatively new to me

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but it seems like

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a place where people

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are going to discover events

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and so a lot of people

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This is where ADK

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to show us

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like once we

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once we do a whole snap

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what the

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what the children are using

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Yeah

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so

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We see that foundation

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It wouldn't surprise

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you are using it

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We moved to it recently

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and it has tons of

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marketing discovery

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power

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but it's

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it's not anywhere near

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the focus that

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we normally have

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so it

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it creates a lot of noise

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for us but

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So it wouldn't surprise me if that was a big driver.

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Actually, one data point,

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I guess we're not supposed to talk as people become,

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but a woman that I've known in Bitcoin for eight years,

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she's a prominent designer,

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worked for many Bitcoin companies.

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She came, and I had no idea she was going to,

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I mean, she didn't live here,

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but I learned she just moved to San Francisco.

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That's awesome.

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She's no longer working in Bitcoin,

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but she's diehard.

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I mean, she's forever Bitcoin.

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and

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but she learned

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of it through

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she just went to Luma

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and she just moved

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to the Bay Area

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the past few weeks

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and she's just looking up

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like she wants to get out

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and meet people

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on events

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and she's still a Bitcoiner

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so she came to this event

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so like profile

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of another person

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he works for

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Schneider Electric

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like some huge

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nice

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yeah so if you want him

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to come

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yeah exactly

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well if you want him

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I'm certain he'll come

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to type 1

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if you want

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but anyway

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he does like HVAC stuff

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so he

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but he's a Bitcoiner

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And so he asked me afterwards, he wants to get connected with miners to try to do business with them.

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So he doesn't work in Bitcoin, but he's just a Bitcoiner.

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And we all work in Bitcoin. Some of us just know it.

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Yeah, okay. Well, there you go.

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There's a tagline for today.

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But the audience is great.

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The energy was particularly great the first couple of presentations.

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So the first presentation was Jackson Cook, who's an engineer on...

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What?

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Shatamos.

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Well, no, we publicized the presentation on the speaker.

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He's an engineer for Square.

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He presented the Square launch that we've talked about in this show.

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It's a good, tight, funny presentation.

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And again, with really good audience questions.

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Was there a demo?

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Could someone actually do a Bitcoin transaction on Square Terminal?

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There's no demo.

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but perhaps even better, is like the next presentation was Pink Owl Coffee.

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Oh, nice. Yeah.

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The owners of Pink Owl Coffee came and spoke about their experience.

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So a few tidbits there.

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They have used the conversions feature for two years now from Square.

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Because they're like early alpha testers of conversions.

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This is the feature where a seller can say, hey, I want to save 4% of my sales in Bitcoin.

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And then it just gets tucked away in Bitcoin.

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And you just dial a knob, turn it on, dial a knob, and then you're set it and forget it.

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They've done that for two years.

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And they set it to the max of 10%.

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And they've done that for two years.

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And I mean, I think they're quite public with this.

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So I think it's fine to share it here.

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And I guess I'm not following Shadowhouse rules

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since I'm saying it's them,

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but I think they spoke at like the Vegas conference

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and stuff.

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Don't ask me to announce how much Bitcoin they've stacked.

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I think we heard their strap too, so don't worry.

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No, I mean, okay.

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I won't tell, I won't say how much Bitcoin they've made.

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Let's put it this way.

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I did the napkin math of what their sales probably are

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and what 10% would result in Bitcoin

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and the price fluctuation.

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And yeah, what they've saved.

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Makes sense to me.

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So I think they've had it turned on the whole time.

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I mean, they're definitely like Bitcoin Max isn't into Bitcoin,

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but like amazing job by them.

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And they're now accepting Bitcoin as well through Square.

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They're beta testers of that.

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Oh, yeah.

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Are they just like a local mom and pop?

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Yeah, they have three stores,

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and they just got approval the previous night for a fourth one.

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That's what happens when you save Bitcoin.

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College of Marin.

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Just keep opening their stores.

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Yeah, they have a very nice stash of Bitcoin that they've saved.

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So kudos to them.

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They had tons of great feedback as well.

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I asked them, are you going to do promotions to your customers to spend in Bitcoin?

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So they're not just capturing people like us going there to go do it.

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And they do have plans.

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They're creating some content on various social media sites that they're going to make available.

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And they're planning to do very steep discounts as well.

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like beyond like 21% now. Okay. So, okay. So I have a ton of questions on that. And, um,

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but I guess my, my, my central question is, so my understanding is the first year of the rollout,

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there is no processing fees. And then after that, it goes to 1%. That's what I write in a press

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release. I mean, that's awesome for a low margin business, two, three, even 1% savings. That's,

256
00:10:51,620 --> 00:10:54,880
that's great. And so they're incentivized to share some of that with the customer.

257
00:10:55,260 --> 00:10:59,640
21% sounds like a losing proposition. What, what, what is their thought on that just to help?

258
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:00,520
Well, one quick thing.

259
00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:04,600
I wouldn't even, like to a merchant, I wouldn't even frame it as like 1% savings.

260
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:11,540
Because like when you change your processing fees from 3% to 1%, your profit margin increases are dramatic, right?

261
00:11:11,820 --> 00:11:13,020
Especially on a low margin.

262
00:11:13,180 --> 00:11:13,460
That's true.

263
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:22,580
You know, if your profit margin is 10% and you're getting 2% back, well, that's a 20% improvement to your profit margin.

264
00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:35,860
But as far as the 21%, they rationalize it as like, well, they'll probably, you know, if they're successful with this, maybe it goes from like near 0% sales to 3% or maybe 5% of sales are in Bitcoin.

265
00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:37,580
You know, then you multiply that by 21%.

266
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,960
So their overall revenue hit is minimal.

267
00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:44,420
And they're all behind.

268
00:11:44,420 --> 00:11:49,420
I asked the question because I think it makes sense to do things like that to change human behavior.

269
00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:54,860
Change the consumer behavior to actually put in the effort to download one of these wallets,

270
00:11:54,940 --> 00:11:58,180
which now have pretty good user experiences, but you still have to download and install the wallet.

271
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,360
You have to move some of your Bitcoin or buy some Bitcoin to have some spending money.

272
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:08,120
For just a normal human being, what's the motivation to do that?

273
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:08,760
It's a pain in the ass.

274
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,080
We do it because we're Bitcoiners.

275
00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:11,540
We already have 15 wallets on our phone.

276
00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:16,320
But if you get a 21% discount, now all of a sudden people are doing it.

277
00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:24,520
And once you get over that hurdle, well, then in the future, you don't need a 21% discount anymore.

278
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,620
And also think about the second merchant that comes along.

279
00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:29,740
They don't have to offer the 21% discount.

280
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,600
The person's already downloaded the wallet, has the spending wallet, and the friction's much less.

281
00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:34,880
Everyone benefits, right?

282
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,060
He also related it to their view on the gift card business.

283
00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:42,980
because I think he said that during the Christmas holiday,

284
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,260
they have a promotion where it's like,

285
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:46,920
spend $100, get $50 gift card.

286
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:49,820
And it has such a, like, in a sense,

287
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,780
it's way too generous, you would think.

288
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,720
But he said that it all kind of makes sense

289
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,860
because of all the additional people they get

290
00:12:55,860 --> 00:12:57,040
coming into the shop,

291
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,460
might not otherwise come into the shop,

292
00:12:58,700 --> 00:12:59,540
just for that promotion.

293
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:01,240
And then they start to make habits out of that.

294
00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,500
And I mean, I can see, like, I've never been,

295
00:13:03,580 --> 00:13:05,060
it's called Pink Owl Coffee, right?

296
00:13:05,460 --> 00:13:06,420
I've never been to Pink Owl Coffee.

297
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:07,740
I'm definitely going to go there now.

298
00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:08,620
Yeah, actually so much.

299
00:13:08,620 --> 00:13:09,940
So I'm literally going to go there.

300
00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:10,680
I was never a customer.

301
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:11,320
Now I'll go there.

302
00:13:11,340 --> 00:13:11,880
I'll seek it out.

303
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,440
I'll go drive across town to go find it.

304
00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:17,620
And I think there's probably more Bitcoiners out there who are like, oh, cool.

305
00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:18,760
Some place I can go do it.

306
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,260
Like you and I did the hangover down in Vegas.

307
00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:24,220
In Vegas, we went across town.

308
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,260
We also went to that brunch place in Costa Rica.

309
00:13:28,740 --> 00:13:29,120
Oh, that's right.

310
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:29,760
Yeah, that was great.

311
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,640
And that was our first example.

312
00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:30,840
Yeah.

313
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:31,700
We paid in lightning.

314
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,280
And it was like novel and exciting.

315
00:13:33,540 --> 00:13:33,800
And yeah.

316
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,100
So I feel like that.

317
00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:35,900
It's like a marketing expense.

318
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:41,520
But like, we may, if there were another place across the street that took Bitcoin and they didn't, we would have gone to the place that took Bitcoin, right?

319
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:41,940
Totally.

320
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,540
Okay, so that makes sense to me.

321
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:45,840
The marketing expense, and I don't know if he spoke.

322
00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:46,640
And the N plus one.

323
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:48,100
And what do you mean by that?

324
00:13:48,140 --> 00:13:48,780
Like meaning like.

325
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:49,940
You just bring friends.

326
00:13:49,940 --> 00:13:53,280
You'll bring a friend and you'll tell your Bitcoin or friend, oh, there's this coffee shop.

327
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:53,620
It's weird.

328
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,000
They like 21% off.

329
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:55,860
Well, it's also sick.

330
00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:01,300
Like, you know, once it's on the, I'm assuming we'll be on the local Bitcoin map or whatever, then people start like, oh, this is the place I want to go to.

331
00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:05,860
I'm going to be more bullish on this because I think the pink owls of the world.

332
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:07,500
They're the first mover merchants.

333
00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:10,200
They're going to, they're going to, they're all in in Bitcoin.

334
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,580
They're going to do these crazy 21%, but they're going to benefit because they're the first mover.

335
00:14:15,940 --> 00:14:20,060
And so it'll attract all the Bitcoiners, but also it'll attract people who want to save 21%.

336
00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:21,280
They'll benefit from that.

337
00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:28,700
Then you have, now you've gone from almost no one to like a nice segment of people who have spending wallets on their phone.

338
00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:29,300
That's true.

339
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:34,680
So the next wave of merchants don't need to do 21% discounts and they benefit because now all of a sudden,

340
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,620
there's like a sizable portion of your customer base

341
00:14:38,620 --> 00:14:40,380
that already has spending wallets.

342
00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:41,180
That's awesome.

343
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,960
Somebody mentioned, was it you mentioned,

344
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,380
he should become the Bitcoin Chamber of Commerce hub?

345
00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:49,260
I wanted to mention that.

346
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:50,340
I didn't mention it.

347
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,340
Someone said we should create a Bitcoin merchant association.

348
00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:55,100
I didn't mean to attribute it to you.

349
00:14:56,220 --> 00:14:56,660
Yeah, I know.

350
00:14:56,940 --> 00:15:00,460
We are breaking our own rules.

351
00:15:00,660 --> 00:15:00,900
I know.

352
00:15:01,460 --> 00:15:03,120
But yeah, someone mentioned there should be

353
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,660
like a Bitcoin merchant association.

354
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,280
That's how they framed it.

355
00:15:09,220 --> 00:15:10,260
We can talk about it on the show.

356
00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:12,100
I've given no thought to it.

357
00:15:12,180 --> 00:15:13,720
What does that even mean?

358
00:15:14,460 --> 00:15:16,780
Is it good or bad in a decentralized Bitcoin?

359
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,940
I don't know, but it's interesting, right?

360
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:19,920
I think it's super good.

361
00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:20,400
It's amazing.

362
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:21,540
I mean, think about it.

363
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,640
He's investing the 21% discount

364
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,200
to get a bunch of people with these wallets.

365
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:28,800
There's all kinds of other people in town

366
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:29,740
who haven't invested that.

367
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,280
He could galvanize a movement there.

368
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,560
Now, this is not going to bleed out to like the whole world.

369
00:15:34,780 --> 00:15:35,040
Not yet.

370
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:44,160
No, my point is if he runs the Bitcoin Merchant Association for Marin County or San Rafael or whatever, that's not going to bleed out to the whole world.

371
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,580
He's not going to become like the king of Bitcoin commerce.

372
00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:48,600
He's just going to like, but he could instigate a movement.

373
00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:49,580
Other people will mimic him.

374
00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:54,380
Other people will mimic him and he can sort of instigate that, help them on board.

375
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:56,200
I think it's a great idea.

376
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:02,960
I mean, it's just kind of an offhanded comment, but I think he's sort of accidentally in pole position to be that kind of leader.

377
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,100
And that kind of leader is going to be great for his business, great for the ecosystem, great for Bitcoin, etc.

378
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:07,880
I love that.

379
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:17,620
Well, yeah, I was just going to say, I mean, you know, I think that the more they open source everything as well, like all the guides and learnings like we do with our stuff, then people want to do.

380
00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:25,940
Like, honestly, the way I see this, I think the biggest thing that makes me bullish on this, besides gift cards, which is worth talking about because I have more ideas on gift cards.

381
00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:28,820
but is this going to be like the Mormon church?

382
00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:30,100
Like it really is.

383
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,120
Like you're going to have,

384
00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:33,840
like you have the people that are into Bitcoin.

385
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,840
If anyone, if you haven't met someone in real life

386
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,820
who's into Bitcoin, like.

387
00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:40,120
I think everyone has their Thanksgiving dinner table,

388
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,840
you know, guest.

389
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:42,620
By the end of the time,

390
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:43,680
you're like, dude,

391
00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:45,520
will you please shut the fuck up about Bitcoin?

392
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:46,640
Like we get it.

393
00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:47,360
It's your religion.

394
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:48,160
Congratulations.

395
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:49,660
But like these guys,

396
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,440
there's so many people that are not technical,

397
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,440
but they are bought into the cold.

398
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:55,160
And they, I mean, this is now,

399
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,620
you're taking this free,

400
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,920
like literally religious marketing team

401
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,160
that's going to go out there,

402
00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:00,920
probably, you know,

403
00:17:01,220 --> 00:17:02,740
button down shirts and dirt ties

404
00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:03,940
and their little book of Satoshi

405
00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:05,460
and they're going to go out there

406
00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:06,680
and just orange pull the world.

407
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:07,320
It's going to be great.

408
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:07,920
And actually, you know,

409
00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:09,620
we ask ourselves a lot in the show

410
00:17:09,620 --> 00:17:10,440
and even off the show,

411
00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:12,780
like why stable coins versus Bitcoin?

412
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:13,820
Why Bitcoin, et cetera?

413
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:16,640
And it's very good to think through use cases,

414
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,920
think through advantages, pros and cons.

415
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,020
It's good to do that analysis.

416
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,180
But the passion of Bitcoin,

417
00:17:23,180 --> 00:17:25,960
find where are the Mormons of stable

418
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:27,920
there aren't any

419
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,580
it's just big like stripe

420
00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:31,760
I'm a tempo master

421
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,160
have you heard the good word

422
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,100
I mean it's just large companies

423
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:37,900
trying to cement themselves

424
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:39,700
with the next visa and that's a

425
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,160
completely different energy and vibe

426
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,100
than the masses

427
00:17:44,100 --> 00:17:45,240
of people who are into

428
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,820
Bitcoin and will push for that

429
00:17:47,820 --> 00:17:50,040
like that alone could be

430
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,240
I'm long cults

431
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,420
yeah

432
00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:56,140
So a few other thoughts on the Bitcoin Merchant Association.

433
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,800
We talked a little bit last episode about the stickers that Square's coming out with.

434
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:11,640
Another thing that I think is really important that Square does or Spiral or the broader Bitcoin space or all of the above is leave behind.

435
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,840
Because we also talked about on this show going to all the merchants in the Presidio.

436
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:22,040
We want to spend in Bitcoin right here where we work every day and where we visit local merchants.

437
00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:26,420
And well, some of them you square, some of them don't, but like we want to go talk to

438
00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:26,560
them.

439
00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:30,580
And usually when you go chat, like the person behind the counter, they're busy.

440
00:18:30,860 --> 00:18:32,520
They aren't the decision maker.

441
00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:34,040
They're not the owner or the manager or whatever.

442
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,460
And so you can strike up a quick conversation, but then that's usually the end of the story.

443
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,060
It'd be nice to have a leave behind, like a one pager or some kind of cart, you know,

444
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,580
half page card or something like that, that you can leave with them that they can read

445
00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:50,540
later or they can give to the manager or owner.

446
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,360
And it gives them the pitch on.

447
00:18:53,180 --> 00:18:54,000
why Bitcoin, right?

448
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,680
And it should obviously heavily emphasize

449
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,880
the getting rid of the 3% fee.

450
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,840
So, yeah, you know,

451
00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:02,420
I'm sure Square is going to do this.

452
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,580
It'll be Square-oriented, which is great,

453
00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:05,980
but there should be another version,

454
00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:08,380
which is just more general for Bitcoin

455
00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:10,380
and is more neutral.

456
00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:12,440
Can certainly still highlight Square

457
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,600
since that's a major option,

458
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,740
but if there's other solutions to highlight those.

459
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,600
But we can then,

460
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,680
I mean, we're going to test this out here.

461
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,780
But it can be part of the Marin Bitcoin Merchant Association

462
00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:28,560
as part of that open source package that gets published

463
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,560
that then any other location in the world can adopt.

464
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,680
And it just like, so yeah,

465
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,400
so I do think the pink owl folks should create a website

466
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,680
and promote this for Marin or whatever jurisdiction,

467
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,300
whatever geographic area they want to start with

468
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:47,460
and then go from there.

469
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:47,960
I love it.

470
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:49,780
So one idea that comes to mind immediately,

471
00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:51,420
you know, it'd be super cool to do,

472
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,820
and maybe the pink owl guys could be the first one is like,

473
00:19:54,980 --> 00:19:58,600
as companies announce they're turning on Bitcoin,

474
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,000
do you know, will they have a lightning address?

475
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:03,940
What do you mean?

476
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:04,900
Like with Square?

477
00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:05,720
Square, if you turn on.

478
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:10,220
Well, I hope they'll have a human readable name.

479
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:10,820
Okay.

480
00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:13,680
So what I was going to suggest is what would be super cool

481
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,780
if it's backwards compatible with either a lightning address

482
00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:20,080
or an in-pub, which I know there was some testing

483
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:20,720
of that at one point.

484
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,660
what we should do is we should do like money bombs or cash bombs because like there's like

485
00:20:25,660 --> 00:20:29,420
in Noster this the concept of the zap-a-thon right where they used to get together and people would

486
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:35,400
just like just go crazy just zap a whole bunch of whatever bitcoin around imagine you could just and

487
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,480
I mean this won't scale forever although maybe it will I don't know like as you have new restaurant

488
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:44,840
like I'm almost thinking like an advent calendar oh every new restaurant a day it's like hey for

489
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,240
example the woman that we really want to sign up and she's going I don't know about all this yeah

490
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,920
And we're like, okay, here's your address.

491
00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:50,940
Just watch.

492
00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:52,320
Oh, this is a great idea.

493
00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:52,880
Just watch.

494
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:54,860
And then we go and we do this on the show.

495
00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:55,920
We do this on Noster.

496
00:20:56,020 --> 00:21:00,200
And we'd be like, all right, guys, let's convert this woman to join us.

497
00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:04,500
And then people come in and just go crazy and just drop sats on her like wild.

498
00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:06,520
And she looks at it and goes, what the fuck happened?

499
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,020
Well, you're talking about having her on Noster?

500
00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:12,520
Because I thought you were driving foot traffic to the business.

501
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:13,920
Well, you can do foot traffic to the business.

502
00:21:14,060 --> 00:21:16,120
I was just saying, yeah, foot traffic to the business, that's a great idea.

503
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,200
I think that's the thing that will speak to the merchant.

504
00:21:19,340 --> 00:21:21,280
They'll be like, wow, I didn't even know about this,

505
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:23,300
and this cult showed up and bought a bunch of stuff for me.

506
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:24,700
I'm joining the cult.

507
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:27,120
So we should definitely do that, too.

508
00:21:27,260 --> 00:21:28,200
But I think there's two.

509
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,600
What I'm saying is imagine you could just take advantage

510
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,280
of all the people that are zapping on Nostra,

511
00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:34,620
and they all zap her at one moment,

512
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,460
and she looks at her wallet, and there's $10,000.

513
00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:37,980
I agree.

514
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,220
The foot track is even better.

515
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,620
So I think these ideas are very close.

516
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,300
Take this advent calendar idea.

517
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,100
It's like the 30 days before Christmas or whatever.

518
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,440
So you have like the 30 days of Bitcoin.

519
00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:53,420
And each day there's like a new restaurant in a similar geo.

520
00:21:53,740 --> 00:21:55,300
It's maybe San Rafael or whatever.

521
00:21:55,820 --> 00:21:57,300
And they're going to be Bitcoin enabled.

522
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,000
And so the leader of the Bitcoin Merchant Association says, here's the calendar.

523
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:01,800
And they publish it.

524
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:03,980
And then each day you open it up and you're like, oh, good.

525
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,140
They're having tacos 21% off.

526
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,240
And everybody shows up, foot traffic.

527
00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:10,340
Tons of Bitcoin is spent at that merchant.

528
00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:11,540
And the merchant's like, whoa.

529
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:12,140
What is going on?

530
00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:13,520
Okay, these people are for real.

531
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,060
There's a real thing.

532
00:22:14,060 --> 00:22:22,380
And now you've got this local area where all these people have Bitcoin on their phones, right, that they can use to transact like a spending wallet.

533
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:35,746
And you got a whole ecosystem kind of like the circular economy that we you know see a little bit in like you know in Costa Rica or like I think exists in like you know the beach the beach town Bitcoin Beach Bitcoin Beach

534
00:22:36,746 --> 00:22:37,766
Like do Bitcoin.

535
00:22:38,066 --> 00:22:38,786
Zcash Beach.

536
00:22:39,686 --> 00:22:40,366
Solana Beach.

537
00:22:41,186 --> 00:22:42,046
That's why it's called Solana Beach.

538
00:22:42,046 --> 00:22:42,506
That's why it is.

539
00:22:42,586 --> 00:22:42,806
Yeah, yeah.

540
00:22:42,806 --> 00:22:43,286
I didn't know that.

541
00:22:44,166 --> 00:22:45,886
But you could have, you know.

542
00:22:45,886 --> 00:22:46,866
Down by San Diego, right?

543
00:22:47,006 --> 00:22:49,686
We should actually, yeah, we should do this in Solana Beach.

544
00:22:49,686 --> 00:22:51,206
That would be so much fun.

545
00:22:51,826 --> 00:22:52,746
Takeover territory.

546
00:22:52,866 --> 00:22:53,306
Yeah, exactly.

547
00:22:53,306 --> 00:22:55,766
and just like move them out of that turf.

548
00:22:56,066 --> 00:22:57,186
I think it's an amazing idea.

549
00:22:57,286 --> 00:22:58,106
We should totally make this happen.

550
00:22:58,386 --> 00:23:00,366
I still think we should also offer a way

551
00:23:00,366 --> 00:23:01,606
for like the international people

552
00:23:01,606 --> 00:23:03,206
because I do think there's so many people

553
00:23:03,206 --> 00:23:04,726
that like just like they want to zap around.

554
00:23:04,846 --> 00:23:06,186
Like I'll come out and say now,

555
00:23:06,246 --> 00:23:07,166
if we did 30 days of Bitcoin,

556
00:23:07,266 --> 00:23:08,086
I'll zap anywhere in the world.

557
00:23:08,706 --> 00:23:09,626
Oh, so okay.

558
00:23:09,706 --> 00:23:10,646
So here's how you merge it though

559
00:23:10,646 --> 00:23:12,686
is each business like, you know,

560
00:23:12,806 --> 00:23:17,046
say Pink Isle Coffee gets an automatic Nostre account.

561
00:23:17,166 --> 00:23:17,526
Exactly.

562
00:23:17,806 --> 00:23:20,526
For, you know, signing up on this advent calendar.

563
00:23:20,526 --> 00:23:24,426
and then people all around the world

564
00:23:24,426 --> 00:23:28,306
can then zap and effectively subsidize the 21%.

565
00:23:28,306 --> 00:23:30,026
So you sort of can go to the...

566
00:23:30,026 --> 00:23:31,266
That's a great way of framing.

567
00:23:31,266 --> 00:23:33,226
You can go to the merchant and be like,

568
00:23:33,286 --> 00:23:34,246
hey, 21% off,

569
00:23:34,306 --> 00:23:35,446
but you're going to have people all over the world

570
00:23:35,446 --> 00:23:38,066
sending you Bitcoin to help subsidize the 21%.

571
00:23:38,066 --> 00:23:39,366
Yeah, that's a great idea.

572
00:23:39,386 --> 00:23:39,806
That's amazing.

573
00:23:40,086 --> 00:23:42,026
And then hopefully merchants sort of opt into

574
00:23:42,026 --> 00:23:44,726
publishing the data

575
00:23:44,726 --> 00:23:46,866
or what kind of response did they get?

576
00:23:47,126 --> 00:23:48,746
And then because the merchant association

577
00:23:48,746 --> 00:23:50,046
should encourage that

578
00:23:50,046 --> 00:23:50,886
so then it can be published

579
00:23:50,886 --> 00:23:51,666
and then everyone

580
00:23:51,666 --> 00:23:52,566
who contributed to that

581
00:23:52,566 --> 00:23:54,306
globally would be like,

582
00:23:54,426 --> 00:23:55,406
you know,

583
00:23:55,466 --> 00:23:56,386
I played a role in that

584
00:23:56,386 --> 00:23:57,566
and you feel good about yourself.

585
00:23:57,766 --> 00:23:58,066
I love it.

586
00:23:58,526 --> 00:23:59,526
Like Hands Across America.

587
00:23:59,766 --> 00:24:00,466
Do you remember that?

588
00:24:01,466 --> 00:24:01,866
No.

589
00:24:02,386 --> 00:24:02,606
You know,

590
00:24:02,906 --> 00:24:03,366
this is like

591
00:24:03,366 --> 00:24:04,706
this is from the 80s.

592
00:24:05,986 --> 00:24:06,966
Steve should know though.

593
00:24:07,246 --> 00:24:07,686
Sorry, whoopie.

594
00:24:08,046 --> 00:24:08,426
We don't know.

595
00:24:09,486 --> 00:24:11,006
There used to be some program,

596
00:24:11,126 --> 00:24:12,186
I was a fundraiser or something,

597
00:24:12,306 --> 00:24:12,966
but you do like

598
00:24:12,966 --> 00:24:13,766
Hands Across America.

599
00:24:14,026 --> 00:24:15,306
Oh, like a March of Dimes

600
00:24:15,306 --> 00:24:15,626
or something.

601
00:24:15,626 --> 00:24:17,166
You literally stand there

602
00:24:17,166 --> 00:24:17,686
hand in hand

603
00:24:17,686 --> 00:24:18,526
with the next person over

604
00:24:18,526 --> 00:24:19,986
and you kind of try to make like,

605
00:24:20,046 --> 00:24:21,446
a stretch of people.

606
00:24:21,506 --> 00:24:22,206
I think they were kind of like

607
00:24:22,206 --> 00:24:22,746
per city,

608
00:24:22,846 --> 00:24:23,426
but it was kind of like

609
00:24:23,426 --> 00:24:24,226
all in the same day.

610
00:24:24,806 --> 00:24:25,286
And you just like

611
00:24:25,286 --> 00:24:26,646
make a chain of people

612
00:24:26,646 --> 00:24:27,866
who are like part of this

613
00:24:27,866 --> 00:24:29,146
world record thing

614
00:24:29,146 --> 00:24:29,446
or something.

615
00:24:29,586 --> 00:24:29,886
I don't know.

616
00:24:30,606 --> 00:24:31,646
That sounds like a very 80s thing.

617
00:24:32,046 --> 00:24:33,346
I remember We Are The World.

618
00:24:33,346 --> 00:24:33,666
Yeah.

619
00:24:34,106 --> 00:24:36,246
I think it was six months

620
00:24:36,246 --> 00:24:37,126
before that.

621
00:24:37,766 --> 00:24:38,626
The right era.

622
00:24:39,426 --> 00:24:40,686
The Simpsons were created

623
00:24:40,686 --> 00:24:41,686
right around that same time.

624
00:24:42,286 --> 00:24:42,946
Perhaps you could give us

625
00:24:42,946 --> 00:24:43,486
a rendition of

626
00:24:43,486 --> 00:24:44,366
We Are The World for this.

627
00:24:45,406 --> 00:24:46,166
Maybe next time.

628
00:24:46,226 --> 00:24:46,986
Give me an audio track.

629
00:24:47,106 --> 00:24:47,866
And then he'll

630
00:24:47,866 --> 00:24:49,106
he'll rap it.

631
00:24:49,106 --> 00:24:52,406
I might have to use the restroom

632
00:24:52,406 --> 00:24:53,546
when you guys do that.

633
00:24:57,666 --> 00:24:58,666
Let's follow up on the

634
00:24:58,666 --> 00:25:00,046
Merchant Association idea.

635
00:25:00,246 --> 00:25:00,886
That's amazing.

636
00:25:02,006 --> 00:25:04,006
Let's make sure, do we know

637
00:25:04,006 --> 00:25:06,186
I forget the gentleman's name and we shouldn't say it anyway

638
00:25:06,186 --> 00:25:08,066
I guess. Well, I guess it's allowed to be said.

639
00:25:08,526 --> 00:25:10,166
But do we know if he's

640
00:25:10,166 --> 00:25:11,346
aware of this show?

641
00:25:11,446 --> 00:25:14,626
We'll send it to him.

642
00:25:16,446 --> 00:25:17,206
Other things,

643
00:25:17,446 --> 00:25:18,646
we're still on the first,

644
00:25:18,646 --> 00:25:21,106
It was really good. It was really good energy.

645
00:25:21,546 --> 00:25:22,286
I was excited.

646
00:25:22,726 --> 00:25:25,726
It boosted my already pretty high level of enthusiasm

647
00:25:25,726 --> 00:25:30,126
for Square Bitcoin acceptance to the next level.

648
00:25:31,486 --> 00:25:33,286
So there are a bunch of ideas from...

649
00:25:33,286 --> 00:25:35,806
Actually, I want to pause on the Square thing.

650
00:25:35,946 --> 00:25:38,146
I've got a question that I kind of wanted to ask Jackson,

651
00:25:38,206 --> 00:25:39,246
but I already asked him enough stuff.

652
00:25:40,446 --> 00:25:42,126
But I've been...

653
00:25:42,126 --> 00:25:43,826
By the way, it wasn't Jack's son.

654
00:25:44,266 --> 00:25:46,046
It was Jackson.

655
00:25:46,046 --> 00:25:46,926
Oh, I see. Right. Okay.

656
00:25:46,926 --> 00:25:48,926
I just wanted to clarify

657
00:25:48,926 --> 00:25:51,726
I've had

658
00:25:51,726 --> 00:25:52,126
I've been

659
00:25:52,126 --> 00:25:52,966
since we discussed

660
00:25:52,966 --> 00:25:53,446
on the show

661
00:25:53,446 --> 00:25:54,446
every time somebody

662
00:25:54,446 --> 00:25:55,346
asks for cash

663
00:25:55,346 --> 00:25:56,146
or some sort of payment

664
00:25:56,146 --> 00:25:56,986
that I'm having like

665
00:25:56,986 --> 00:25:57,686
a one-to-one

666
00:25:57,686 --> 00:25:58,466
with a decision maker

667
00:25:58,466 --> 00:25:59,566
I ask them if

668
00:25:59,566 --> 00:26:00,126
they'll take Bitcoin

669
00:26:00,126 --> 00:26:01,966
and I've

670
00:26:01,966 --> 00:26:03,046
had a few

671
00:26:03,046 --> 00:26:03,906
scenarios

672
00:26:03,906 --> 00:26:04,526
I think I've

673
00:26:04,526 --> 00:26:05,446
shared some of them

674
00:26:05,446 --> 00:26:05,826
with you

675
00:26:05,826 --> 00:26:06,626
but I had one

676
00:26:06,626 --> 00:26:07,266
that I ran into

677
00:26:07,266 --> 00:26:07,946
this week

678
00:26:07,946 --> 00:26:09,226
kind of a bigger ticket

679
00:26:09,226 --> 00:26:10,366
service provider

680
00:26:10,366 --> 00:26:11,626
and I was

681
00:26:11,626 --> 00:26:12,266
he wanted

682
00:26:12,266 --> 00:26:13,406
he wanted

683
00:26:13,406 --> 00:26:14,526
Venmo or Zelle

684
00:26:14,526 --> 00:26:15,386
and I tried

685
00:26:15,386 --> 00:26:16,086
and they failed

686
00:26:16,086 --> 00:26:21,606
and then it didn't really explain why and i asked bitcoin and he didn't it wasn't really

687
00:26:21,606 --> 00:26:27,166
didn't know much about it or didn't know how to do it so i do think like in one of the cases

688
00:26:27,166 --> 00:26:33,106
um we should have a leave behind for that type of person that we can sort of a one page that we can

689
00:26:33,106 --> 00:26:36,506
pull out and be like here's how this thing works because people one of the people asked me for more

690
00:26:36,506 --> 00:26:40,526
information they wanted to do it and i'll have my son help me out yeah um so i think there's a

691
00:26:40,526 --> 00:26:41,346
I'll leave behind option there,

692
00:26:41,386 --> 00:26:42,226
but I think there's also,

693
00:26:42,566 --> 00:26:44,166
I think there's also like,

694
00:26:44,386 --> 00:26:47,786
the fact that Square is willing to subsidize

695
00:26:47,786 --> 00:26:49,926
the payment fees.

696
00:26:50,066 --> 00:26:50,546
Yeah, which is crazy.

697
00:26:50,806 --> 00:26:53,566
I think almost could be a whole new,

698
00:26:54,566 --> 00:26:57,886
it could reach a whole new type of merchant

699
00:26:57,886 --> 00:27:00,566
who doesn't currently consider themselves a merchant.

700
00:27:00,666 --> 00:27:01,946
They don't want to use the POS, whatever.

701
00:27:03,346 --> 00:27:04,946
I don't know if you know the person I'm talking about,

702
00:27:04,946 --> 00:27:07,346
but like, she's not going to use the POS,

703
00:27:07,686 --> 00:27:08,826
but maybe if you said, hey, look,

704
00:27:08,826 --> 00:27:11,446
free, you know, no fees

705
00:27:11,446 --> 00:27:12,806
and, you know, sign up on this thing

706
00:27:12,806 --> 00:27:13,786
and she could kind of become like,

707
00:27:13,946 --> 00:27:14,866
so I guess my question is,

708
00:27:15,326 --> 00:27:16,586
does Square or would Square

709
00:27:16,586 --> 00:27:21,206
have like a Bitcoin-only merchant style?

710
00:27:21,806 --> 00:27:22,046
Maybe.

711
00:27:22,886 --> 00:27:24,486
Because it feels like we're pretty...

712
00:27:24,486 --> 00:27:26,526
So have you ever heard of Register World?

713
00:27:27,006 --> 00:27:27,266
No.

714
00:27:27,326 --> 00:27:28,666
Do you know that Square is global?

715
00:27:29,146 --> 00:27:30,026
Well, that's what I was about to say.

716
00:27:30,126 --> 00:27:31,106
My immediate thought was

717
00:27:31,106 --> 00:27:31,746
you could do this globally.

718
00:27:31,746 --> 00:27:33,046
So I'd worked at the company

719
00:27:33,046 --> 00:27:33,826
for like four years

720
00:27:33,826 --> 00:27:34,986
and never heard of Register World

721
00:27:34,986 --> 00:27:38,166
and Register World is a version of Square

722
00:27:38,166 --> 00:27:39,666
that anyone in the world can use.

723
00:27:39,726 --> 00:27:41,126
And it's been around for like

724
00:27:41,126 --> 00:27:42,586
eight or ten years or something.

725
00:27:42,586 --> 00:27:43,186
Is it a separate company?

726
00:27:43,586 --> 00:27:43,986
No.

727
00:27:44,446 --> 00:27:45,586
It's just all this warehouse suite

728
00:27:45,586 --> 00:27:45,686
but no pants.

729
00:27:45,686 --> 00:27:47,666
It's a product called Register World.

730
00:27:47,986 --> 00:27:49,346
So it's like invoicing and stuff?

731
00:27:49,726 --> 00:27:50,126
Yeah.

732
00:27:50,486 --> 00:27:52,446
So, I mean, you can accept cash.

733
00:27:52,846 --> 00:27:53,786
Oh, you can do cash.

734
00:27:53,846 --> 00:27:53,986
Okay.

735
00:27:54,306 --> 00:27:55,086
And then like,

736
00:27:55,206 --> 00:27:57,306
it handles, so...

737
00:27:57,306 --> 00:27:58,346
Oh, shit.

738
00:27:58,386 --> 00:27:59,046
I get this now.

739
00:27:59,126 --> 00:27:59,286
Right.

740
00:27:59,306 --> 00:27:59,826
It's going to be big.

741
00:28:00,086 --> 00:28:01,666
So that already exists.

742
00:28:01,746 --> 00:28:02,066
And actually,

743
00:28:02,186 --> 00:28:04,006
I think it's popular in Mexico City.

744
00:28:04,006 --> 00:28:05,326
I mean,

745
00:28:05,466 --> 00:28:07,626
it's not like some resounding success,

746
00:28:07,746 --> 00:28:08,146
but it has like

747
00:28:08,166 --> 00:28:09,806
pockets of it does have usage

748
00:28:09,806 --> 00:28:12,066
but you can imagine to like

749
00:28:12,066 --> 00:28:14,286
let's turn up the volume on that amplify it

750
00:28:14,286 --> 00:28:16,346
use that as a vehicle for

751
00:28:16,346 --> 00:28:18,286
Square internationally and add

752
00:28:18,286 --> 00:28:20,506
Bitcoin because Bitcoin shares a lot of characteristics

753
00:28:20,506 --> 00:28:22,546
with cash and it also can be

754
00:28:22,546 --> 00:28:24,266
like you don't need to go get

755
00:28:24,266 --> 00:28:26,306
licensed in all these different countries

756
00:28:26,306 --> 00:28:26,646
right

757
00:28:26,646 --> 00:28:30,146
that's that Max seems excited about

758
00:28:30,146 --> 00:28:32,246
that's huge because now

759
00:28:32,246 --> 00:28:34,286
Square can I think because Jack always

760
00:28:34,286 --> 00:28:36,006
said over and over and over is like this is what we

761
00:28:36,006 --> 00:28:37,846
used to go international and kind of got it but now

762
00:28:37,846 --> 00:28:44,546
But with this, you could literally just plug that in today and have the cult members in every city around the world.

763
00:28:44,686 --> 00:28:45,886
And now Square is a global company.

764
00:28:45,986 --> 00:28:46,386
Oh, man.

765
00:28:46,726 --> 00:28:46,826
Yeah.

766
00:28:47,846 --> 00:28:48,506
That's good.

767
00:28:48,906 --> 00:28:49,026
Yeah.

768
00:28:49,146 --> 00:28:51,066
So I think that would be an exciting direction.

769
00:28:51,266 --> 00:28:56,706
And we could even then, yeah, we could nationalize as we have the Mormon whatever movement in the U.S.

770
00:28:56,726 --> 00:28:59,346
You can have localized translate to Spanish from Mexico.

771
00:28:59,886 --> 00:29:00,386
Oh, this is good.

772
00:29:00,566 --> 00:29:04,546
Technology-wise, it gets into the question of like how do you deliver it, right?

773
00:29:04,786 --> 00:29:07,826
Because if it's custodial, well, then you need some kind of like…

774
00:29:07,826 --> 00:29:11,946
Some kind of licensed somewhere and some offshore this or that or whatever.

775
00:29:12,126 --> 00:29:12,646
But if it's non-custodial.

776
00:29:13,266 --> 00:29:17,126
And then if it's non-custodial, so is it Lightning or Arc or Spark or this?

777
00:29:17,706 --> 00:29:21,566
And imagine for a minute, once you have the non-custodial version, then you can do that in the U.S. too.

778
00:29:21,706 --> 00:29:23,306
And so then that opens up a whole other market.

779
00:29:23,486 --> 00:29:25,786
There's like the guys selling you burritos.

780
00:29:26,986 --> 00:29:29,746
Anyone that deals with cash in the U.S., now all of a sudden you get that.

781
00:29:31,606 --> 00:29:32,186
That's big.

782
00:29:32,326 --> 00:29:33,566
Yeah, so I think it's an exciting direction.

783
00:29:33,566 --> 00:29:47,186
Another potentially exciting direction and a request from Pink Owl and other people in the audience last night was Bitcoin-backed loans, which just seems like a natural feature for Square to offer.

784
00:29:47,666 --> 00:29:52,266
Because first of all, Square already offers loans to merchants, but non-Bitcoin.

785
00:29:52,266 --> 00:30:03,606
But now if merchants are now saving in Bitcoin and have Bitcoin, why not be able to tap into that Bitcoin to get fiat loans to grow their business, build their business, pay expenses or whatever.

786
00:30:03,986 --> 00:30:04,286
That's awesome.

787
00:30:04,726 --> 00:30:06,386
So that seems like a very natural extension.

788
00:30:06,606 --> 00:30:13,946
And obviously, there's already two Bitcoin back loan companies working out of Presidio Bitcoin, one of which we'll talk about in a few minutes because it was another presentation last night.

789
00:30:14,686 --> 00:30:16,486
And there's several others.

790
00:30:16,606 --> 00:30:20,386
So I think that's like a no-brainer to happen in the future for merchants.

791
00:30:20,386 --> 00:30:22,266
some other

792
00:30:22,266 --> 00:30:24,126
feedback was like

793
00:30:24,126 --> 00:30:25,886
you know well we mentioned

794
00:30:25,886 --> 00:30:28,006
Pink Owl might give a big discount

795
00:30:28,006 --> 00:30:29,386
but

796
00:30:29,386 --> 00:30:32,326
an idea for Square to improve would be

797
00:30:32,326 --> 00:30:34,346
to make that just dead

798
00:30:34,346 --> 00:30:36,326
simple in the UI for the merchants

799
00:30:36,326 --> 00:30:38,326
to just be like you know I want to give the

800
00:30:38,326 --> 00:30:40,346
customer a discount and then like a

801
00:30:40,346 --> 00:30:42,466
dial like 1%, 3%, 21%

802
00:30:42,466 --> 00:30:44,086
whatever and then

803
00:30:44,086 --> 00:30:46,646
have that marketed in the UI

804
00:30:46,646 --> 00:30:48,066
maybe some of the

805
00:30:48,066 --> 00:30:49,986
marketing collateral that

806
00:30:49,986 --> 00:30:55,546
Square might provide merchants could also, you know, emphasize that, highlight that.

807
00:30:55,966 --> 00:31:01,446
But basically try to drive more traffic than just the people who already know they want to spend in Bitcoin, but everyone else who you're visiting.

808
00:31:01,566 --> 00:31:03,166
So make that just dead simple for merchants.

809
00:31:03,466 --> 00:31:06,146
Has Bob talked about, did he talk about what he's doing there at all?

810
00:31:07,106 --> 00:31:08,146
Not publicly.

811
00:31:08,866 --> 00:31:09,546
Yeah, I don't know.

812
00:31:10,546 --> 00:31:13,026
Bob was there and Bob talked to Pinkal and Bob's excited.

813
00:31:13,186 --> 00:31:13,866
Let's just leave it at that.

814
00:31:13,866 --> 00:31:17,086
I won't dox by, but there are some really good ideas

815
00:31:17,086 --> 00:31:18,946
about things you can do with gift cards

816
00:31:18,946 --> 00:31:20,566
that interoperate with the Bitcoin network

817
00:31:20,566 --> 00:31:22,286
that I think could be a game changer.

818
00:31:23,286 --> 00:31:24,186
So that's exciting.

819
00:31:24,466 --> 00:31:26,446
And then what are some of the other ideas?

820
00:31:26,646 --> 00:31:27,806
Let's see, loans.

821
00:31:28,166 --> 00:31:32,026
Oh, Pingal also suggested that Square,

822
00:31:32,406 --> 00:31:33,486
and I'm saying Square,

823
00:31:33,606 --> 00:31:36,646
but really anyone providing merchant solutions in Bitcoin,

824
00:31:37,286 --> 00:31:38,346
it's an idea for them too,

825
00:31:38,846 --> 00:31:41,526
would be tutorials and educational material

826
00:31:41,526 --> 00:31:43,886
for the employees at a merchant.

827
00:31:44,326 --> 00:31:46,786
Like Pink Owl, like the owners are bought in.

828
00:31:46,886 --> 00:31:47,306
They get it.

829
00:31:47,366 --> 00:31:48,026
They know how to use it.

830
00:31:48,086 --> 00:31:51,506
They understand they have the talking points down.

831
00:31:52,166 --> 00:31:54,666
But when they hire people at their coffee shops,

832
00:31:54,866 --> 00:31:56,526
they aren't necessarily hard-grown Bitcoiners

833
00:31:56,526 --> 00:31:57,566
who know what the talking points are,

834
00:31:57,686 --> 00:31:58,786
know how it works.

835
00:31:59,206 --> 00:32:02,706
And so providing tutorials to employees at a merchant,

836
00:32:03,146 --> 00:32:05,066
that seems to make a lot of sense as well.

837
00:32:05,066 --> 00:32:07,246
And I think he mentioned too the payroll.

838
00:32:07,786 --> 00:32:09,646
I think Square has a payroll product

839
00:32:09,646 --> 00:32:12,566
that they use to pay their, I think you said, 40 employees.

840
00:32:12,906 --> 00:32:16,666
So right now that doesn't tightly integrate with Bitcoin,

841
00:32:16,786 --> 00:32:18,246
but it could be made to.

842
00:32:18,546 --> 00:32:21,406
Yeah, well, because I think I asked the question,

843
00:32:21,886 --> 00:32:24,586
does Pink Owl, since they're so hardcore into Bitcoin,

844
00:32:24,766 --> 00:32:27,186
do they ask their suppliers to accept Bitcoin

845
00:32:27,186 --> 00:32:28,946
to try to create this virtual cycle?

846
00:32:29,026 --> 00:32:30,526
And they said, yes, they do ask that.

847
00:32:30,526 --> 00:32:32,106
They also try to get paid in Bitcoin.

848
00:32:32,466 --> 00:32:35,266
Like if they do an event, they ask the event,

849
00:32:35,386 --> 00:32:36,626
will you pay us in Bitcoin?

850
00:32:36,626 --> 00:32:39,066
and they also try to

851
00:32:39,066 --> 00:32:40,926
pay their, or I mean they offer the option

852
00:32:40,926 --> 00:32:43,006
to their employees to pay them in Bitcoin, which gets to

853
00:32:43,006 --> 00:32:43,766
DK's point.

854
00:32:44,986 --> 00:32:46,906
Cash App does have the feature, Paid in Bitcoin,

855
00:32:47,126 --> 00:32:48,506
where if you're a Cash App

856
00:32:48,506 --> 00:32:50,126
customer, you can just

857
00:32:50,126 --> 00:32:53,046
change a simple UI,

858
00:32:53,146 --> 00:32:54,446
change a dial so that if you

859
00:32:54,446 --> 00:32:56,906
do direct deposit to your

860
00:32:56,906 --> 00:32:57,826
Cash App account

861
00:32:57,826 --> 00:33:00,526
in dollars, then you can say I want

862
00:33:00,526 --> 00:33:02,526
5% or 10% or whatever converted to

863
00:33:02,526 --> 00:33:04,326
Bitcoin, and I believe it's like

864
00:33:04,326 --> 00:33:05,986
no fees.

865
00:33:06,626 --> 00:33:07,806
Really? No fees? Wow.

866
00:33:09,086 --> 00:33:10,706
Don't quote me on that, but I believe that is true.

867
00:33:10,726 --> 00:33:11,066
That's a big deal.

868
00:33:11,706 --> 00:33:13,886
And then, but I think, yeah,

869
00:33:14,106 --> 00:33:15,546
what I took away from last night is that

870
00:33:15,546 --> 00:33:17,746
Square also has direct deposit

871
00:33:17,746 --> 00:33:21,346
and they don't yet have like the paid in Bitcoin feature.

872
00:33:22,226 --> 00:33:26,026
But, you know, so if the employee accepted it at Cash App,

873
00:33:26,906 --> 00:33:28,506
their direct deposit, then they could do it.

874
00:33:28,506 --> 00:33:31,246
But it'd be nice if it was integrated directly into Square.

875
00:33:31,366 --> 00:33:32,566
Two thoughts that come to mind immediately.

876
00:33:32,686 --> 00:33:33,746
I'm sure this is in the plans,

877
00:33:33,886 --> 00:33:36,606
but there should be obviously some kind of like referral system

878
00:33:36,606 --> 00:33:38,746
Like in Cash App, you refer a friend, you get a referral.

879
00:33:39,186 --> 00:33:40,666
If you sign up, you're, you know,

880
00:33:40,946 --> 00:33:41,906
someone out there hustling

881
00:33:41,906 --> 00:33:43,606
and you sign up someone as a merchant,

882
00:33:43,786 --> 00:33:45,366
hopefully there's like some referral fee for you.

883
00:33:45,706 --> 00:33:47,486
But what would also be cool is if there's a way

884
00:33:47,486 --> 00:33:49,646
for the individual to split that referral fee

885
00:33:49,646 --> 00:33:52,246
with the person at the cash register.

886
00:33:52,566 --> 00:33:53,746
So imagine for a minute, you're like,

887
00:33:53,826 --> 00:33:55,666
hey, you know, there's all this Bitcoin stuff.

888
00:33:55,726 --> 00:33:57,486
It's interesting for you and you can get paid in one day.

889
00:33:57,546 --> 00:33:59,346
By the way, if you help me sign your guy up,

890
00:33:59,386 --> 00:34:01,486
you know, I get 10 bucks, you get 10, something like that.

891
00:34:02,246 --> 00:34:04,626
I think someone also asked whether the,

892
00:34:04,626 --> 00:34:07,086
what the access controls are

893
00:34:07,086 --> 00:34:09,426
to the Square Seller Management Console

894
00:34:09,426 --> 00:34:10,386
to enable Bitcoin.

895
00:34:10,486 --> 00:34:13,166
Because if any person behind the counter can do it,

896
00:34:13,286 --> 00:34:14,566
then you could be like,

897
00:34:14,626 --> 00:34:15,686
hey, I'll give you some Bitcoin

898
00:34:15,686 --> 00:34:16,906
if you just tap that button.

899
00:34:18,386 --> 00:34:19,426
But I don't think that's the case.

900
00:34:19,746 --> 00:34:21,066
Yeah, I don't know about that.

901
00:34:22,406 --> 00:34:22,806
Cool.

902
00:34:23,146 --> 00:34:23,586
Yeah, anyway.

903
00:34:23,726 --> 00:34:24,566
So a really good presentation.

904
00:34:24,726 --> 00:34:25,446
The next presentation

905
00:34:25,446 --> 00:34:28,846
was from the head of design from Fold.

906
00:34:29,546 --> 00:34:30,466
And I thought,

907
00:34:30,466 --> 00:34:32,786
he also presented at Design Week

908
00:34:32,786 --> 00:34:36,266
last month, Joshua Philippe.

909
00:34:36,406 --> 00:34:39,466
I thought his presentation last night was really good.

910
00:34:39,466 --> 00:34:44,066
He basically went through, he joined earlier this year

911
00:34:44,066 --> 00:34:49,366
Fold and he just evaluated their design system

912
00:34:49,366 --> 00:34:52,146
and found tons of areas to improve.

913
00:34:52,466 --> 00:34:54,806
So he walked through the problems he discovered

914
00:34:54,806 --> 00:34:58,946
and he did a good job showing how they were pretty problematic

915
00:34:58,946 --> 00:35:01,766
and really slowed down their development process too

916
00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:02,806
because of all these problems.

917
00:35:03,466 --> 00:35:04,966
I thought he communicated that well.

918
00:35:05,166 --> 00:35:08,386
And then he walked through their new design system,

919
00:35:08,886 --> 00:35:11,446
which they're still, I think, building out.

920
00:35:12,646 --> 00:35:18,206
And talked about their token as well, but not.

921
00:35:19,626 --> 00:35:20,686
So you had to attend, Max.

922
00:35:20,826 --> 00:35:22,166
No, a design token,

923
00:35:22,406 --> 00:35:24,126
not the kind of tokens you're thinking about.

924
00:35:24,966 --> 00:35:26,646
But yeah, I thought that was, I mean,

925
00:35:27,766 --> 00:35:29,826
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

926
00:35:29,826 --> 00:35:31,326
That's great coverage, yeah.

927
00:35:31,326 --> 00:35:42,546
And then the last presentation was from a member here at Presidio Bitcoin, Andy, who is our inaugural EIR, Entrepreneur in Residence here.

928
00:35:42,946 --> 00:35:45,726
He came from Buenos Aires to work from here for like half a year.

929
00:35:47,226 --> 00:35:52,346
And so he just presented on his business, which is, guess what, a Bitcoin-backed loan startup.

930
00:35:52,346 --> 00:35:56,366
So beyond just talking about the product,

931
00:35:56,506 --> 00:35:58,006
I mean, he spoke to like the,

932
00:35:59,186 --> 00:36:01,946
you know, gave sort of the Argentina flavor of it

933
00:36:01,946 --> 00:36:03,826
and like some context in Argentina.

934
00:36:04,046 --> 00:36:05,426
So that was good too.

935
00:36:05,746 --> 00:36:06,106
Super cool.

936
00:36:06,366 --> 00:36:06,546
Yeah.

937
00:36:07,106 --> 00:36:07,566
I love it.

938
00:36:07,946 --> 00:36:09,786
Anything else from Builder?

939
00:36:09,946 --> 00:36:12,126
I mean, we spent 40 minutes on it, but.

940
00:36:12,466 --> 00:36:14,766
We should, Deanna asked a couple of questions

941
00:36:14,766 --> 00:36:15,086
around this.

942
00:36:15,226 --> 00:36:17,026
Can you guys talk about the pros and cons

943
00:36:17,026 --> 00:36:18,206
of making Bitcoin everyday money?

944
00:36:18,286 --> 00:36:19,566
Why would someone not want to use

945
00:36:19,566 --> 00:36:21,006
as a means of exchange right now?

946
00:36:21,006 --> 00:36:23,806
how does it overcome the push-pull with its store of value?

947
00:36:24,366 --> 00:36:25,586
I think we kind of spoke about that.

948
00:36:25,606 --> 00:36:27,026
If you get 21% discount, that's pretty cool.

949
00:36:27,026 --> 00:36:28,726
Well, that was a topic at the...

950
00:36:28,726 --> 00:36:29,806
We talked about it last night.

951
00:36:30,686 --> 00:36:33,306
There were quite a few responses.

952
00:36:33,306 --> 00:36:39,906
So, it's common for Bitcoiners to say,

953
00:36:40,666 --> 00:36:43,386
I don't want to spend my Bitcoin because the number is going to go up.

954
00:36:43,466 --> 00:36:44,666
That's very common thinking.

955
00:36:44,966 --> 00:36:47,846
I don't think it actually makes sense, though.

956
00:36:47,846 --> 00:36:55,646
because most humans can compartmentalize savings and spending.

957
00:36:55,646 --> 00:37:01,406
And I have a 401k and I own the S&P 500 index and that.

958
00:37:01,626 --> 00:37:04,726
It's kind of like I signed up for it when I started the job

959
00:37:04,726 --> 00:37:07,206
and then I don't think about it, touch it.

960
00:37:07,286 --> 00:37:07,986
It's just there.

961
00:37:08,206 --> 00:37:09,526
It hopefully grows over time.

962
00:37:10,586 --> 00:37:14,386
Then I have my billfold or my checking account

963
00:37:14,386 --> 00:37:16,486
or some kind of spending account.

964
00:37:16,486 --> 00:37:19,626
and they're just like conceptually two completely different things for me

965
00:37:19,626 --> 00:37:21,986
and I think you can do the same with Bitcoin.

966
00:37:22,246 --> 00:37:25,706
So yes, you have your stack that you don't touch,

967
00:37:25,906 --> 00:37:28,026
cold storage, whatever, you don't touch it, great.

968
00:37:28,646 --> 00:37:30,126
You're not going to be spending that.

969
00:37:30,386 --> 00:37:32,186
Instead, you have a spending wallet on your phone,

970
00:37:32,506 --> 00:37:34,686
put 50 bucks in, 100 bucks in, whatever,

971
00:37:35,306 --> 00:37:37,066
and spend and replenish, right?

972
00:37:37,986 --> 00:37:40,366
And then like if you're a super hardcore Bitcoiner

973
00:37:40,366 --> 00:37:42,206
and you're like, oh, Gresham's Law,

974
00:37:42,706 --> 00:37:45,986
I only want to spend the shit money, not the great money.

975
00:37:45,986 --> 00:37:49,226
If you're that hardcore, don't even hold dollars.

976
00:37:49,466 --> 00:37:52,986
You're going to hold all Bitcoin, and then you have to spend Bitcoin because all you have is Bitcoin.

977
00:37:53,146 --> 00:37:56,706
Well, unless you're taking out loans against your Bitcoin, you're 120%.

978
00:37:56,706 --> 00:37:59,146
Or loans. Someone mentioned that as well.

979
00:38:00,286 --> 00:38:03,926
I think it's commonly thought that way. I actually don't think it really holds water.

980
00:38:04,086 --> 00:38:07,726
I think number one is that there needs to be compelling reasons to spend your Bitcoin.

981
00:38:08,346 --> 00:38:12,206
And right now, it's largely just Bitcoiners seeking out ways to spend Bitcoin.

982
00:38:12,206 --> 00:38:14,366
the 21% type of discount

983
00:38:14,366 --> 00:38:16,726
is going to get normal people doing it

984
00:38:16,726 --> 00:38:17,986
and then it'll

985
00:38:17,986 --> 00:38:20,346
like we talked about earlier it reduces friction

986
00:38:20,346 --> 00:38:22,626
and then it'll just become more of a habit

987
00:38:22,626 --> 00:38:24,426
the number one question I still have on all that

988
00:38:24,426 --> 00:38:26,306
I buy all of that in a

989
00:38:26,306 --> 00:38:28,546
neutral world however the big issue that I always

990
00:38:28,546 --> 00:38:30,566
come back to is like and I don't know if we're ever going to get

991
00:38:30,566 --> 00:38:32,386
this but like the whatever tax exemption

992
00:38:32,386 --> 00:38:34,586
like that seems like the biggest friction point because it's like yes

993
00:38:34,586 --> 00:38:36,506
replenish your bitcoin but it's like you have to deal with the

994
00:38:36,506 --> 00:38:38,486
accounting nightmare if you're ever whatever I mean like

995
00:38:38,486 --> 00:38:39,286
that is also

996
00:38:39,286 --> 00:38:41,686
So if you would have attended last night,

997
00:38:41,686 --> 00:38:41,926
I have.

998
00:38:42,386 --> 00:38:43,746
I'm getting the recap right now.

999
00:38:43,886 --> 00:38:44,986
But our audience would like to hear it.

1000
00:38:45,126 --> 00:38:46,406
Yeah, someone raised that point.

1001
00:38:47,126 --> 00:38:48,186
It's certainly a good question.

1002
00:38:48,986 --> 00:38:51,466
And that's why there's people in Washington, D.C.

1003
00:38:51,506 --> 00:38:53,626
fighting to get the law changed

1004
00:38:53,626 --> 00:38:55,206
and have a de minimis,

1005
00:38:55,346 --> 00:38:56,866
and we talked about this in the show before,

1006
00:38:57,446 --> 00:38:58,366
$300, $600.

1007
00:38:59,246 --> 00:39:02,766
I mean, last night, I think one person was saying

1008
00:39:02,766 --> 00:39:05,346
it needs to be between $1,000 and $10,000,

1009
00:39:05,566 --> 00:39:08,746
but some kind of exemption for payments.

1010
00:39:09,286 --> 00:39:17,386
But also a point raised last night, definitely Chatham House rules, but it's like civil disobedience.

1011
00:39:18,686 --> 00:39:21,686
There's going to be a group of people who are just civil disobedience.

1012
00:39:21,826 --> 00:39:26,166
They're going to pay in Bitcoin because they're trying to start this movement and they're not going to report on the taxes.

1013
00:39:26,646 --> 00:39:32,366
There's another group of people who won't know they're supposed to report this on their taxes and they'll spend in Bitcoin.

1014
00:39:32,366 --> 00:39:35,086
And then they just won't do it because they don't know.

1015
00:39:35,086 --> 00:39:36,946
but I do think that

1016
00:39:36,946 --> 00:39:39,166
that will happen, that demand

1017
00:39:39,166 --> 00:39:40,526
will help change the law as well.

1018
00:39:40,526 --> 00:39:41,946
Totally, once you have enough people doing it.

1019
00:39:42,606 --> 00:39:44,426
And it's

1020
00:39:44,426 --> 00:39:47,206
someone,

1021
00:39:47,926 --> 00:39:48,346
myself,

1022
00:39:48,846 --> 00:39:50,046
I can out myself, right?

1023
00:39:50,286 --> 00:39:52,746
I related to Uber. Uber was

1024
00:39:52,746 --> 00:39:55,146
illegal or considered illegal or challenged

1025
00:39:55,146 --> 00:39:57,006
to be illegal in many different cities

1026
00:39:57,006 --> 00:39:58,606
but there was such substantial

1027
00:39:58,606 --> 00:40:00,346
demand by consumers.

1028
00:40:02,106 --> 00:40:02,906
Austin, I think,

1029
00:40:02,986 --> 00:40:04,766
kicked out Uber for a year or two or something

1030
00:40:04,766 --> 00:40:07,106
but a completely failed attempt

1031
00:40:07,106 --> 00:40:09,346
because there's strong consumer demand.

1032
00:40:09,526 --> 00:40:11,766
So we don't have that kind of consumer demand today

1033
00:40:11,766 --> 00:40:13,826
for people spending in Bitcoin,

1034
00:40:13,986 --> 00:40:14,866
but we can get there.

1035
00:40:15,046 --> 00:40:16,126
Yeah, that's a good point.

1036
00:40:16,126 --> 00:40:17,566
I think that'll help change the law.

1037
00:40:17,786 --> 00:40:17,886
Cool.

1038
00:40:18,446 --> 00:40:18,586
Yeah.

1039
00:40:18,806 --> 00:40:19,766
I like it.

1040
00:40:20,386 --> 00:40:20,966
Any other?

1041
00:40:24,866 --> 00:40:26,666
How to overcome objections from merchants

1042
00:40:26,666 --> 00:40:28,086
who only accept cash.

1043
00:40:28,366 --> 00:40:29,186
Well, non-custodial.

1044
00:40:30,486 --> 00:40:32,566
Well, but one, I mean, to me,

1045
00:40:32,566 --> 00:40:35,206
merchants who only accept cash,

1046
00:40:35,626 --> 00:40:38,346
I think they're ripe for accepting Bitcoin

1047
00:40:38,346 --> 00:40:40,346
because they're missing out

1048
00:40:40,346 --> 00:40:42,186
on the convenience of digital money.

1049
00:40:42,686 --> 00:40:44,086
And I'm sure they know it.

1050
00:40:44,266 --> 00:40:45,966
I'm sure they have a lot of customers come

1051
00:40:45,966 --> 00:40:47,306
and then walk away.

1052
00:40:47,806 --> 00:40:48,986
I mean, I did this in Berlin.

1053
00:40:49,086 --> 00:40:50,426
I didn't have any euros with me.

1054
00:40:50,486 --> 00:40:51,466
So I went to this coffee shop

1055
00:40:51,466 --> 00:40:52,666
and they're like, sorry, it's cash only.

1056
00:40:52,746 --> 00:40:55,506
And I walked away and they lost that on a sale.

1057
00:40:56,066 --> 00:40:58,746
So undoubtedly that occurs every single day

1058
00:40:58,746 --> 00:41:01,426
for merchants and wherever they are in the world

1059
00:41:01,426 --> 00:41:02,706
if they only accept cash.

1060
00:41:03,346 --> 00:41:06,246
So they'd love to offer the convenience of digital

1061
00:41:06,246 --> 00:41:09,826
and accept money from more people, more customers,

1062
00:41:10,086 --> 00:41:13,866
but they don't want to pay the fees.

1063
00:41:15,266 --> 00:41:18,346
And so I think the sales pitch is even stronger

1064
00:41:18,346 --> 00:41:19,106
for such merchants.

1065
00:41:19,406 --> 00:41:21,366
Yeah, I think you need non-custodial to win them over.

1066
00:41:21,766 --> 00:41:22,226
But we'll get there.

1067
00:41:22,426 --> 00:41:25,026
But I also, I think people, there's a mentality right now

1068
00:41:25,026 --> 00:41:27,486
that if it's digital, it includes some sort of fees.

1069
00:41:28,326 --> 00:41:31,086
And cash obviously does not as you hand it, right?

1070
00:41:31,426 --> 00:41:37,966
So I think there's like a little bit of a learning gap, like custodial, non-custodial is like kind of an advanced topic compared to like digital.

1071
00:41:38,466 --> 00:41:40,246
The assumption is digital always comes with fees.

1072
00:41:40,246 --> 00:41:48,126
So if there's a new type of digital that doesn't come with fees, that's notable and kind of needs to be sort of almost like the headline pitch.

1073
00:41:49,126 --> 00:41:52,146
Well, so Deanna says their cache is untraceable, though.

1074
00:41:52,226 --> 00:41:54,526
So I think that is a concern for cache only, folks.

1075
00:41:55,746 --> 00:41:59,106
Yeah, well, I mean, we'll talk about privacy in a little bit, right?

1076
00:41:59,106 --> 00:42:10,626
And so, again, if you're accepting Visa or any traditional digital money, it's all traceable.

1077
00:42:10,886 --> 00:42:15,006
So for those accepting money that don't want it to be traced for whatever reason they might have,

1078
00:42:16,106 --> 00:42:18,886
existing digital monies are horrible for that.

1079
00:42:19,946 --> 00:42:23,246
Bitcoin, while its privacy is not perfect, is dramatically better.

1080
00:42:23,246 --> 00:42:28,766
It's much closer to cash than it is any of the other forms of digital money.

1081
00:42:29,106 --> 00:42:31,346
at least traditional digital money.

1082
00:42:32,166 --> 00:42:33,086
And if they're using Lightning,

1083
00:42:33,506 --> 00:42:35,246
it's relatively private.

1084
00:42:35,766 --> 00:42:38,446
So I actually think that's a sales pitch.

1085
00:42:38,546 --> 00:42:39,926
I mean, if you're coming from cash

1086
00:42:39,926 --> 00:42:42,486
and there's maybe a little bit weaker privacy

1087
00:42:42,486 --> 00:42:43,866
with Bitcoin than cash,

1088
00:42:44,286 --> 00:42:45,406
maybe some are deterred,

1089
00:42:45,466 --> 00:42:48,026
but I think the convenience win

1090
00:42:48,026 --> 00:42:50,866
and broadening how many people can be your customer,

1091
00:42:51,446 --> 00:42:54,466
that is, and you still get most of the privacy

1092
00:42:54,466 --> 00:42:56,406
win of Bitcoin that you have with cash.

1093
00:42:56,406 --> 00:42:58,386
I think that's a pretty compelling proposition.

1094
00:42:58,386 --> 00:42:59,346
yeah so

1095
00:42:59,346 --> 00:42:59,846
awesome

1096
00:42:59,846 --> 00:43:02,526
should we talk about

1097
00:43:02,526 --> 00:43:03,126
anything else

1098
00:43:03,126 --> 00:43:04,186
Zcash then

1099
00:43:04,186 --> 00:43:04,626
sure

1100
00:43:04,626 --> 00:43:05,846
well so

1101
00:43:05,846 --> 00:43:07,926
the reason I raise this

1102
00:43:07,926 --> 00:43:08,286
is

1103
00:43:08,286 --> 00:43:08,946
you know

1104
00:43:08,946 --> 00:43:09,426
I've

1105
00:43:09,426 --> 00:43:10,486
I've known

1106
00:43:10,486 --> 00:43:11,386
of its existence

1107
00:43:11,386 --> 00:43:12,026
for years

1108
00:43:12,026 --> 00:43:12,846
but never really

1109
00:43:12,846 --> 00:43:13,346
followed it

1110
00:43:13,346 --> 00:43:13,966
super closely

1111
00:43:13,966 --> 00:43:14,946
but recently

1112
00:43:14,946 --> 00:43:15,986
I've gotten a bunch

1113
00:43:15,986 --> 00:43:16,766
of pings from

1114
00:43:16,766 --> 00:43:17,886
friends of mine

1115
00:43:17,886 --> 00:43:18,526
in Silicon Valley

1116
00:43:18,526 --> 00:43:19,166
who are like

1117
00:43:19,166 --> 00:43:19,826
you know

1118
00:43:19,826 --> 00:43:21,686
I'd call them

1119
00:43:21,686 --> 00:43:22,806
like mostly Bitcoiners

1120
00:43:22,806 --> 00:43:23,546
but then they're like

1121
00:43:23,546 --> 00:43:24,726
oh have you heard

1122
00:43:24,726 --> 00:43:25,606
so and so

1123
00:43:25,606 --> 00:43:26,106
is saying something

1124
00:43:26,106 --> 00:43:27,166
about Zcash

1125
00:43:27,166 --> 00:43:27,806
what's going on

1126
00:43:27,806 --> 00:43:30,166
And so I've been getting a lot of those questions.

1127
00:43:30,166 --> 00:43:32,426
I'm like, why is this all of a sudden like a topic?

1128
00:43:32,486 --> 00:43:33,906
Why are we readdressing this?

1129
00:43:34,606 --> 00:43:42,906
So I don't claim any expertise in it, but I did ask you guys in the chat, like, are you guys hearing this?

1130
00:43:42,926 --> 00:43:43,446
Are you seeing this?

1131
00:43:43,566 --> 00:43:45,066
Why is all this FUD coming up?

1132
00:43:45,126 --> 00:43:48,386
Or like, is there any, is there something that we should be studying here is kind of the question.

1133
00:43:48,386 --> 00:43:57,966
And I think there's not something really new, but I think it's worth, like, why is it blowing up in everybody's feeds and they're hearing about it?

1134
00:43:58,146 --> 00:44:00,826
And is there something, like, what are the stories?

1135
00:44:01,106 --> 00:44:03,666
Like, it's true that Bitcoin is not super private.

1136
00:44:03,946 --> 00:44:08,606
It's better privacy than Visa, but it's not as good as maybe Lightning, right?

1137
00:44:09,066 --> 00:44:12,926
So I think from a starting point, people are like, oh, well, Bitcoin does have this privacy problem.

1138
00:44:12,926 --> 00:44:16,406
And I think we and most Bitcoiners probably do care a lot about privacy.

1139
00:44:16,406 --> 00:44:18,486
and we kind of can admit that at the base layer,

1140
00:44:18,606 --> 00:44:22,106
Bitcoin doesn't have the privacy characteristic

1141
00:44:22,106 --> 00:44:23,646
that you would hope for or aspire to.

1142
00:44:24,126 --> 00:44:24,786
The question is like,

1143
00:44:25,526 --> 00:44:28,266
what kinds of things might make Bitcoin

1144
00:44:28,266 --> 00:44:30,086
achieve the kind of privacy we want?

1145
00:44:30,506 --> 00:44:33,346
And does Zcash offer some hope or promise

1146
00:44:33,346 --> 00:44:34,806
or is there something to learn from it

1147
00:44:34,806 --> 00:44:36,626
that could be incorporated into Bitcoin?

1148
00:44:38,366 --> 00:44:42,046
We also need to break down different types of privacy.

1149
00:44:42,046 --> 00:44:45,106
That rarely gets discussed

1150
00:44:45,106 --> 00:44:46,546
when people are debating privacy.

1151
00:44:47,066 --> 00:44:48,486
But it's really important

1152
00:44:48,486 --> 00:44:50,546
because different people

1153
00:44:50,546 --> 00:44:52,066
are going to have different perspectives

1154
00:44:52,066 --> 00:44:54,086
on this type of privacy is important to me,

1155
00:44:54,166 --> 00:44:54,946
this one isn't,

1156
00:44:55,026 --> 00:45:09,891
or this is important to society this one isn And then also is this coin or this technology solution does it solve that or this that or the other One is that your transactions are not

1157
00:45:09,891 --> 00:45:11,711
public

1158
00:45:11,711 --> 00:45:12,931
for the world to see.

1159
00:45:14,151 --> 00:45:15,591
Most blockchains

1160
00:45:15,591 --> 00:45:17,571
to date are public, including

1161
00:45:17,571 --> 00:45:19,691
Bitcoin. We can get

1162
00:45:19,691 --> 00:45:21,711
into the nuances, but the transaction

1163
00:45:21,711 --> 00:45:23,351
data is public.

1164
00:45:23,771 --> 00:45:25,651
There's not identifying information

1165
00:45:25,651 --> 00:45:26,331
in that.

1166
00:45:27,211 --> 00:45:28,351
But the amounts

1167
00:45:28,351 --> 00:45:29,031
and the sender

1168
00:45:29,031 --> 00:45:29,591
and receiver

1169
00:45:29,591 --> 00:45:31,811
like identifiers

1170
00:45:31,811 --> 00:45:32,811
are there.

1171
00:45:32,891 --> 00:45:33,671
Like an address though.

1172
00:45:33,811 --> 00:45:33,931
Yeah.

1173
00:45:34,051 --> 00:45:35,191
Like if I pay you

1174
00:45:35,191 --> 00:45:35,611
in Bitcoin

1175
00:45:35,611 --> 00:45:36,431
you can see

1176
00:45:36,431 --> 00:45:37,331
an address

1177
00:45:37,331 --> 00:45:38,291
and an address

1178
00:45:38,291 --> 00:45:38,751
and the amount

1179
00:45:38,751 --> 00:45:40,091
but you can't

1180
00:45:40,091 --> 00:45:40,831
see our names

1181
00:45:40,831 --> 00:45:41,231
or something.

1182
00:45:41,391 --> 00:45:41,551
Yeah.

1183
00:45:41,611 --> 00:45:42,371
But if you ever

1184
00:45:42,371 --> 00:45:43,331
touch anywhere near

1185
00:45:43,331 --> 00:45:44,431
KYC stuff

1186
00:45:44,431 --> 00:45:45,051
it's quite easy.

1187
00:45:45,311 --> 00:45:46,071
Well it's easy

1188
00:45:46,071 --> 00:45:47,771
for kind of

1189
00:45:47,771 --> 00:45:48,951
certain institutions

1190
00:45:48,951 --> 00:45:50,191
and using

1191
00:45:50,191 --> 00:45:50,791
certain software

1192
00:45:50,791 --> 00:45:51,012
to do it

1193
00:45:51,012 --> 00:45:52,211
but a random person

1194
00:45:52,211 --> 00:45:52,691
can't show up

1195
00:45:52,691 --> 00:45:53,071
and just be like

1196
00:45:53,071 --> 00:45:53,831
oh that's obviously

1197
00:45:53,831 --> 00:45:54,771
DK Payne's deep.

1198
00:45:54,791 --> 00:45:55,371
But that

1199
00:45:55,371 --> 00:45:58,071
That's extreme anti-privacy, right?

1200
00:45:58,071 --> 00:46:05,391
Where it's just public information and your adversaries can see it, your neighbors, your family members.

1201
00:46:05,951 --> 00:46:07,911
And there's different types of people you might care about privacy.

1202
00:46:07,911 --> 00:46:23,111
If you're a 16-year-old buying video games or whatever and you want to keep that a secret from your parents, you don't care about China adversary or something like that.

1203
00:46:23,171 --> 00:46:24,871
You just care about your parent adversary.

1204
00:46:25,371 --> 00:46:29,411
so there are different types of people you want to keep your privacy

1205
00:46:29,411 --> 00:46:33,611
from and then another is just like

1206
00:46:33,611 --> 00:46:35,371
using Visa or

1207
00:46:35,371 --> 00:46:38,992
Cash App or PayPal or whatever

1208
00:46:38,992 --> 00:46:43,012
or just your bank and that's where that institution

1209
00:46:43,012 --> 00:46:45,771
knows all about your financial history

1210
00:46:45,771 --> 00:46:49,431
they are regulated, they're generally safeguarded

1211
00:46:49,431 --> 00:46:52,651
so that it's not publicly revealed, there's a threat of

1212
00:46:52,651 --> 00:46:54,811
hacks and that data can leak but

1213
00:46:55,371 --> 00:46:59,151
They do their, in most cases, do their best to minimize that risk.

1214
00:46:59,591 --> 00:47:02,831
And it can be exposed to government, but that requires process, etc.

1215
00:47:03,231 --> 00:47:04,671
So there's that type of privacy.

1216
00:47:05,391 --> 00:47:09,751
Then there's privacy, which might be a reason the Zcash stuff is popping up,

1217
00:47:09,751 --> 00:47:14,671
which is part of the not Bitcoin core debate right now.

1218
00:47:16,091 --> 00:47:21,391
The latest wrinkle in the past month or so has been about illegal content,

1219
00:47:21,831 --> 00:47:25,051
specifically CSAM, that if it's put in the blockchain,

1220
00:47:25,371 --> 00:47:29,611
that it's like on everyone's computer that is running Bitcoin.

1221
00:47:29,811 --> 00:47:31,391
And some people are claiming that's illegal

1222
00:47:31,391 --> 00:47:33,751
and you're going to get in trouble if you run Bitcoin

1223
00:47:33,751 --> 00:47:36,191
if it has that content.

1224
00:47:36,891 --> 00:47:38,591
So that's where if you had privacy,

1225
00:47:38,951 --> 00:47:40,591
like if that data, then you don't,

1226
00:47:40,971 --> 00:47:43,331
then no one even knows if that content

1227
00:47:43,331 --> 00:47:46,071
is actually on your computer or not.

1228
00:47:46,131 --> 00:47:48,331
But that gets into a whole nother debate too.

1229
00:47:48,431 --> 00:47:51,731
Like if you have, if there is illegal content on your computer,

1230
00:47:52,251 --> 00:47:53,751
is that legally illegal?

1231
00:47:53,751 --> 00:47:58,671
even if you have like sort of nothing to do with it you have no intent or whatever secondly if it's

1232
00:47:58,671 --> 00:48:05,971
encrypted does that matter um probably not but maybe that's a reason the like naval's tweeting

1233
00:48:05,971 --> 00:48:12,811
about protecting you know if bitcoin fails then zcash um maybe he's alluding to that and just

1234
00:48:12,811 --> 00:48:18,351
saying that like any kind of blockchain with a layer one it's not fully private that it's a

1235
00:48:18,351 --> 00:48:24,671
attack vector for governments to come after it, where if it's private and no one knows what's in

1236
00:48:24,671 --> 00:48:31,371
there, then it seals up that attack vector. Now, of course, Zcash has suffered to date because

1237
00:48:31,371 --> 00:48:35,031
exchanges won't list it because of, or at least with shielded transactions.

1238
00:48:35,031 --> 00:48:38,851
And I think that's a super important point, which I'm sure we'll get into the details.

1239
00:48:39,271 --> 00:48:43,111
With Zcash, one thing people don't understand is that you can use it unshielded or shielded.

1240
00:48:43,571 --> 00:48:47,551
The vast majority of people think they're using Zcash privately or not because you haven't turned

1241
00:48:47,551 --> 00:48:48,471
on shielded transactions.

1242
00:48:48,891 --> 00:48:50,191
Don't turn on shielded transactions,

1243
00:48:50,291 --> 00:48:50,571
by the way,

1244
00:48:50,611 --> 00:48:52,771
because the size of that proof

1245
00:48:52,771 --> 00:48:53,571
is so fat

1246
00:48:53,571 --> 00:48:54,871
that it's extremely

1247
00:48:54,871 --> 00:48:55,751
whatever data intensive.

1248
00:48:55,931 --> 00:48:56,611
So to be clear,

1249
00:48:56,671 --> 00:48:57,611
most people are using Zcash

1250
00:48:57,611 --> 00:48:58,331
and think they're getting privacy

1251
00:48:58,331 --> 00:48:58,771
and they're not.

1252
00:48:59,691 --> 00:49:01,931
So my take on this,

1253
00:49:02,071 --> 00:49:03,391
the Zcash bubble

1254
00:49:03,391 --> 00:49:04,791
from the past few months

1255
00:49:04,791 --> 00:49:05,171
or whatever,

1256
00:49:05,531 --> 00:49:06,431
it feels,

1257
00:49:06,711 --> 00:49:07,731
smells and looks

1258
00:49:07,731 --> 00:49:09,331
and feels like a pump and dump

1259
00:49:09,331 --> 00:49:09,931
to me

1260
00:49:09,931 --> 00:49:11,992
and just people pumping their bags

1261
00:49:11,992 --> 00:49:12,992
and then come up with

1262
00:49:12,992 --> 00:49:14,451
narratives around that

1263
00:49:14,451 --> 00:49:14,831
or whatever.

1264
00:49:15,571 --> 00:49:17,492
I'm not aware of any real

1265
00:49:17,492 --> 00:49:20,191
no usage

1266
00:49:20,191 --> 00:49:21,751
increase in Zcash. And in fact,

1267
00:49:22,071 --> 00:49:23,992
one company said that they've literally

1268
00:49:23,992 --> 00:49:25,992
seen zero Zcash transactions in the

1269
00:49:25,992 --> 00:49:28,071
past two months since the price increased.

1270
00:49:28,651 --> 00:49:30,091
So I think

1271
00:49:30,091 --> 00:49:31,992
it would be far more interesting if there

1272
00:49:31,992 --> 00:49:33,331
was a big usage increase.

1273
00:49:34,211 --> 00:49:35,851
I'm not a big dark

1274
00:49:35,851 --> 00:49:38,051
web user, but I

1275
00:49:38,051 --> 00:49:38,931
hear that

1276
00:49:38,931 --> 00:49:44,492
Monero

1277
00:49:44,492 --> 00:49:46,391
dominates there and not Zcash.

1278
00:49:47,131 --> 00:49:48,931
So to me, that's pretty telling.

1279
00:49:49,171 --> 00:49:49,791
That's extremely telling.

1280
00:49:49,791 --> 00:49:54,971
So to me, the more interesting question is the higher level,

1281
00:49:55,931 --> 00:50:00,111
abstracting from any specific coin like Zcash or even Bitcoin,

1282
00:50:00,291 --> 00:50:04,511
but just how important is privacy at layer one

1283
00:50:04,511 --> 00:50:07,671
to protecting cryptocurrency from the state?

1284
00:50:07,831 --> 00:50:09,151
I think that's an interesting question.

1285
00:50:10,691 --> 00:50:13,811
And then we should discuss the trade-offs too.

1286
00:50:13,811 --> 00:50:16,351
if you do have confidential transactions

1287
00:50:16,351 --> 00:50:17,591
or zero-nage proof,

1288
00:50:17,711 --> 00:50:19,651
like full privacy at layer one,

1289
00:50:20,331 --> 00:50:22,291
that comes with fundamental trade-offs.

1290
00:50:22,311 --> 00:50:22,851
Huge ones, yeah.

1291
00:50:22,951 --> 00:50:24,571
And it is huge ones.

1292
00:50:24,691 --> 00:50:27,191
You can no longer have assurance

1293
00:50:27,191 --> 00:50:30,811
that you can audit the supply

1294
00:50:30,811 --> 00:50:32,051
and the minting of the coin

1295
00:50:32,051 --> 00:50:34,231
if there's a crack in the crypto,

1296
00:50:35,271 --> 00:50:35,971
if you're at quantum.

1297
00:50:35,971 --> 00:50:37,971
I mean, somewhat...

1298
00:50:38,651 --> 00:50:39,492
An inflation bug,

1299
00:50:39,711 --> 00:50:41,091
which we found in Bitcoin before.

1300
00:50:41,151 --> 00:50:41,591
Or bugs.

1301
00:50:42,351 --> 00:50:43,511
Somewhat black swan events,

1302
00:50:43,511 --> 00:50:47,951
what they absolutely can happen. They can happen. Then you can run away inflation of the coin and

1303
00:50:47,951 --> 00:50:52,071
no one knows. You can't prove it. You don't even necessarily know it. But all of a sudden,

1304
00:50:52,071 --> 00:50:57,071
it would obviously dramatically change the entire money system, right? Imagine like inflation that

1305
00:50:57,071 --> 00:51:00,011
no one knows about, but it's like out of control, like a thousand X inflation.

1306
00:51:01,271 --> 00:51:05,251
But that's it. I sound like the USD. If it was a thousand X, like people would start to know,

1307
00:51:05,331 --> 00:51:13,011
but like we don't, how much is it? Is it, you know, 20% or a thousand X? So I don't,

1308
00:51:13,011 --> 00:51:25,771
Even if we could wave a magic wand and change layer one Bitcoin to have zero knowledge proofs in this way, I don't think the majority of, I would not personally want it.

1309
00:51:25,771 --> 00:51:27,531
And it sounds like you guys wouldn't either.

1310
00:51:27,671 --> 00:51:37,891
And I think a lot of Bitcoiners would not want it either because I think you can deliver sufficient privacy on Bitcoin without doing that and without sacrificing the auditability of the system.

1311
00:51:38,091 --> 00:51:39,651
So a couple of thoughts I just want to add to that.

1312
00:51:39,651 --> 00:51:46,711
Number one, always when you're ever seeing whatever pumping, first question, how much

1313
00:51:46,711 --> 00:51:47,911
Zcash does Naval own?

1314
00:51:48,151 --> 00:51:52,891
I think he was the seed investor for whatever it was, the Z Corporation, Electro Cash Corporation,

1315
00:51:53,111 --> 00:51:53,631
whatever it was.

1316
00:51:54,111 --> 00:51:57,111
So yeah, I mean, this guy, he pumps his bags.

1317
00:51:57,531 --> 00:51:58,511
Watch them over the last decade.

1318
00:51:58,571 --> 00:51:59,091
It is what it is.

1319
00:51:59,511 --> 00:52:02,831
Although I believe through one of his other funds, they own a lot of Monero too.

1320
00:52:03,011 --> 00:52:04,851
So interesting, but he probably has more Zcash.

1321
00:52:05,151 --> 00:52:07,471
So just always question who's telling you and why, what's your incentives?

1322
00:52:07,471 --> 00:52:21,831
Number two, on the privacy point, I agree with you, Steve, 100% that I think one thing that's maybe clashed in the whole cryptocurrency world is the order of operations and also the value stack.

1323
00:52:21,951 --> 00:52:33,171
The reality is, and this is kind of where I think we get in trouble with politics and everything, it's like, look, if everyone could promise a pony for everyone and sunshine and rainbows every day and pots of gold popping out of the sky, great.

1324
00:52:33,291 --> 00:52:34,211
It's a fundamental human right.

1325
00:52:34,251 --> 00:52:35,371
Yeah, it's a fundamental human right. Amazing.

1326
00:52:35,371 --> 00:52:39,931
But like we live in, you know, a world, at least as far as we know, in this dimension where there are tradeoffs.

1327
00:52:40,051 --> 00:52:41,551
And so you have to make difficult decisions.

1328
00:52:41,771 --> 00:52:42,191
Like the qualifier.

1329
00:52:42,571 --> 00:52:42,831
Yeah.

1330
00:52:42,971 --> 00:52:45,251
It's just like, I mean, it's just like, it's just, I mean.

1331
00:52:45,631 --> 00:52:46,411
Unicorn and rainbows.

1332
00:52:46,431 --> 00:52:46,992
Yeah, exactly.

1333
00:52:47,091 --> 00:52:49,691
Unicorn and rainbows and Satoshi comes and chills with that.

1334
00:52:49,751 --> 00:52:50,051
Like whatever.

1335
00:52:50,611 --> 00:52:56,591
But so when you think about, so the order of operations, and this is, I think, a fundamental sort of debate in the Bitcoin community.

1336
00:52:56,691 --> 00:52:58,631
It's like, is it cypherpunk first and foremost?

1337
00:52:59,031 --> 00:53:01,711
Or is it sort of Austrian hard money Ron Paul?

1338
00:53:01,711 --> 00:53:07,311
and you know personally i think the hard money thing is more important right first of all but

1339
00:53:07,311 --> 00:53:11,471
number two even if you think they're both really important values which i do the other thing i think

1340
00:53:11,471 --> 00:53:15,492
that the whole crypto community and people like naval or like the poster children for this have

1341
00:53:15,492 --> 00:53:22,191
gotten wrong um is you just have to zoom out and understand it will scale in layers and you just

1342
00:53:22,191 --> 00:53:26,511
can't rush this thing right and so you know we've talked about in the past like you know people were

1343
00:53:26,511 --> 00:53:31,531
pumping dogecoin and litecoin and bcash and all the things because bitcoin is too slow

1344
00:53:31,531 --> 00:53:35,231
it's a payment system. It needs to be cash for everyone. It's like, yes, and it will get there.

1345
00:53:35,531 --> 00:53:40,291
But this is OSI protocol stack. Bitcoin is layer one TCP IP. On top of that is Lightning. That's

1346
00:53:40,291 --> 00:53:45,031
the HTTP or SMTP. You'll get your payments. Thank you, relax. Like, boco, boco, right?

1347
00:53:45,371 --> 00:53:49,251
And so I think same with the privacy. To your point, you know, and there's been huge debates.

1348
00:53:49,751 --> 00:53:53,431
I think the only kind of like, one of the only credible competitors to Bitcoin in my mind is

1349
00:53:53,431 --> 00:53:58,691
Monero. And for many reasons, I think Monero has a lot of other really interesting properties

1350
00:53:58,691 --> 00:53:59,711
besides just the privacy.

1351
00:54:00,211 --> 00:54:01,111
But even on the privacy,

1352
00:54:01,511 --> 00:54:02,771
SuperTestNet has gone to war

1353
00:54:02,771 --> 00:54:03,671
with the Monero community.

1354
00:54:03,771 --> 00:54:04,291
It's kind of funny.

1355
00:54:04,751 --> 00:54:06,471
And I haven't followed close enough

1356
00:54:06,471 --> 00:54:07,011
to have a strong opinion,

1357
00:54:07,131 --> 00:54:08,611
but his general TLDR is

1358
00:54:08,611 --> 00:54:09,691
Lightning's more private than Monero.

1359
00:54:10,071 --> 00:54:11,791
And the Monero community gets super

1360
00:54:11,791 --> 00:54:13,651
in kerfuffles and mad about this.

1361
00:54:13,811 --> 00:54:14,691
But I don't know, man,

1362
00:54:14,751 --> 00:54:16,031
SuperTestNet just continues to troll them.

1363
00:54:16,131 --> 00:54:17,451
And I think he's probably right.

1364
00:54:17,971 --> 00:54:20,451
And so what I will say is

1365
00:54:20,451 --> 00:54:23,691
Monero has found,

1366
00:54:23,771 --> 00:54:25,071
because the dark web uses it,

1367
00:54:25,131 --> 00:54:26,591
clearly the market has spoken

1368
00:54:26,591 --> 00:54:27,691
on that versus Zcash.

1369
00:54:28,071 --> 00:54:31,351
But I think in the long run, Monero, you know, for better or for worse, is going to die too

1370
00:54:31,351 --> 00:54:33,551
because you can't find these inflation bugs.

1371
00:54:33,691 --> 00:54:38,631
And that, like the people that are super into Monero, like they're super cypherpunk first

1372
00:54:38,631 --> 00:54:43,851
and foremost, but they can't wrap their head around why protecting against inflation is

1373
00:54:43,851 --> 00:54:44,571
more important.

1374
00:54:44,731 --> 00:54:46,551
And the same thing with their decision with mining.

1375
00:54:47,031 --> 00:54:50,451
Like, you know, and I say this to someone when I went deep down the rabbit hole for a minute,

1376
00:54:50,611 --> 00:54:53,751
I actually jumped from Bitcoin to Monero because I read a paper on this and I was like, oh my

1377
00:54:53,751 --> 00:54:55,871
God, without privacy, you can't have fungibility.

1378
00:54:55,871 --> 00:54:58,051
Monero has the pure launch.

1379
00:54:58,451 --> 00:55:00,011
You know, there is no token pre-mined.

1380
00:55:00,091 --> 00:55:01,571
It's got all these other interesting properties.

1381
00:55:02,031 --> 00:55:03,451
But then the more I started going deep on that,

1382
00:55:03,471 --> 00:55:04,111
I was like, okay,

1383
00:55:04,491 --> 00:55:06,951
but if you can never answer that question fundamentally,

1384
00:55:07,571 --> 00:55:09,711
then like it has, I mean, at some point,

1385
00:55:09,771 --> 00:55:11,551
something will break, whether it's, you know,

1386
00:55:11,591 --> 00:55:14,291
by a state actor, whether it's an accidental bug,

1387
00:55:14,351 --> 00:55:15,231
like something's going to break

1388
00:55:15,231 --> 00:55:17,771
and it will hyperinflate just like everything else.

1389
00:55:17,771 --> 00:55:19,551
And sorry, their mining point.

1390
00:55:19,911 --> 00:55:22,071
So they hard fork every six months.

1391
00:55:22,131 --> 00:55:22,871
I don't know if they still do,

1392
00:55:23,131 --> 00:55:25,371
but to prevent more hash rate from getting the network,

1393
00:55:25,371 --> 00:55:27,011
It's like, dude, that's so dumb.

1394
00:55:27,331 --> 00:55:28,931
The hash rate is what secures the network.

1395
00:55:29,051 --> 00:55:30,231
The energy is the point.

1396
00:55:30,351 --> 00:55:33,491
And whoever gets to decide how it's changing has too much power.

1397
00:55:33,631 --> 00:55:33,951
Exactly.

1398
00:55:34,271 --> 00:55:34,971
And so they're saying,

1399
00:55:35,071 --> 00:55:36,591
I mean, we talked about this before.

1400
00:55:36,591 --> 00:55:37,211
Yeah, we talked about it.

1401
00:55:37,351 --> 00:55:38,291
It is what it is.

1402
00:55:38,391 --> 00:55:38,891
But the point is,

1403
00:55:38,991 --> 00:55:39,511
He's fired up.

1404
00:55:39,831 --> 00:55:41,051
Bitcoin's going to scale in layers.

1405
00:55:41,471 --> 00:55:43,451
You have to have the auditability at layer one.

1406
00:55:43,551 --> 00:55:45,271
You'll get the privacy at layer two or layer three.

1407
00:55:45,831 --> 00:55:47,491
So I think it's fair to just summarize,

1408
00:55:47,771 --> 00:55:50,691
like auditability is way more important than privacy,

1409
00:55:51,051 --> 00:55:54,051
despite how much we all love and value and appreciate privacy.

1410
00:55:54,051 --> 00:56:12,791
I'd qualify that. I wouldn't want the audience to take away at least my protection. I think you guys agree that privacy is extremely important. It's just that I believe that Bitcoin can deliver the necessary privacy without having to impact layer one.

1411
00:56:12,791 --> 00:56:15,291
even that needs nuance.

1412
00:56:15,691 --> 00:56:17,251
There are many privacy improvements

1413
00:56:17,251 --> 00:56:19,171
that have already happened and more in store

1414
00:56:19,171 --> 00:56:21,451
that can impact layer one in a positive way.

1415
00:56:22,731 --> 00:56:25,071
I just don't think we need to change it

1416
00:56:25,071 --> 00:56:26,391
so that we lose auditability

1417
00:56:26,391 --> 00:56:28,251
to get the privacy we need in Bitcoin.

1418
00:56:28,591 --> 00:56:30,171
But privacy is very important to cryptocurrency.

1419
00:56:30,911 --> 00:56:32,391
We all agree on that.

1420
00:56:32,551 --> 00:56:34,891
And just to clarify, just to make sure we're all on the same page,

1421
00:56:34,951 --> 00:56:37,611
when we say auditability, we mean it's all open source code.

1422
00:56:37,691 --> 00:56:38,711
You understand how it works.

1423
00:56:38,711 --> 00:56:39,871
You understand there's 21 million.

1424
00:56:40,091 --> 00:56:41,531
It's like all of those features.

1425
00:56:41,531 --> 00:56:42,231
It's more than just the code, though.

1426
00:56:42,231 --> 00:56:43,011
It's the data.

1427
00:56:44,031 --> 00:56:44,151
Yeah.

1428
00:56:45,031 --> 00:56:45,851
So all the transactions.

1429
00:56:45,851 --> 00:56:46,931
The data is auditable.

1430
00:56:47,271 --> 00:56:48,151
I think we come back.

1431
00:56:48,151 --> 00:56:49,351
We know, like, with Bitcoin,

1432
00:56:49,451 --> 00:56:50,371
which transactions happened.

1433
00:56:51,011 --> 00:56:52,651
You can do it,

1434
00:56:52,751 --> 00:56:54,691
initial block download with Bitcoin Core,

1435
00:56:55,031 --> 00:56:58,051
and you yourself, self-sovereign,

1436
00:56:58,431 --> 00:57:01,231
can know there has not been inflation on the system.

1437
00:57:01,331 --> 00:57:02,291
The number one thing,

1438
00:57:02,351 --> 00:57:03,451
I think we've said this on the show before,

1439
00:57:03,531 --> 00:57:05,391
but it's like, keep hammering this point home,

1440
00:57:05,431 --> 00:57:06,551
because I think this is what Silicon Valley,

1441
00:57:06,611 --> 00:57:07,611
everyone else needs to understand.

1442
00:57:08,251 --> 00:57:09,651
In order for Bitcoin to win,

1443
00:57:09,651 --> 00:57:15,011
And it is critical that for a normal person, they can, whatever it is, $100 or like a normal

1444
00:57:15,011 --> 00:57:20,211
person's salary can easily, if they wanted to, buy the hardware to at home debt, do a

1445
00:57:20,211 --> 00:57:21,871
full block download and audit the system.

1446
00:57:22,111 --> 00:57:23,691
Most people won't, but it is critical.

1447
00:57:23,851 --> 00:57:28,491
The day a normal person does not have that option because it's too expensive, too complex,

1448
00:57:28,591 --> 00:57:29,011
it dies.

1449
00:57:29,351 --> 00:57:32,251
And this is the thing I used to, you know, when I debated, when I was investing in crypto,

1450
00:57:32,251 --> 00:57:37,551
you know, in a former life, you know, I had managers and big funds tell me, it's like,

1451
00:57:37,591 --> 00:57:39,011
well, decentralization doesn't matter that much.

1452
00:57:39,011 --> 00:57:42,571
like no no you don't understand not only does it matter it's the only thing that matters

1453
00:57:42,571 --> 00:57:45,011
if that piece dies bitcoin dies

1454
00:57:45,011 --> 00:57:50,691
cool anything else on zcash do we have good enough answers i think it's good yeah

1455
00:57:50,691 --> 00:57:54,211
i think at least the people who are reaching out i think would uh would benefit from hearing

1456
00:57:54,211 --> 00:57:58,551
your thoughts on it so thanks for caring man cool can i give a quick shout out to

1457
00:57:58,551 --> 00:58:07,931
chain code delegation um what's that what is chain code shout away so um the uh a couple people just

1458
00:58:07,931 --> 00:58:11,771
published a draft Bitcoin improvement proposal,

1459
00:58:12,411 --> 00:58:14,271
one of which is Jervis Tan,

1460
00:58:14,371 --> 00:58:16,611
who's an engineer at Block on BitKey,

1461
00:58:16,731 --> 00:58:18,591
and the other is Jesse Posner,

1462
00:58:18,751 --> 00:58:21,031
who is a former engineer on BitKey.

1463
00:58:21,131 --> 00:58:21,551
Go, Jesse.

1464
00:58:21,771 --> 00:58:23,871
And he's currently a member here at Presidio Bitcoin.

1465
00:58:24,051 --> 00:58:24,991
So shout out to Jesse.

1466
00:58:25,171 --> 00:58:25,751
Fun guy, too.

1467
00:58:25,771 --> 00:58:26,831
And Jervis, both great guys.

1468
00:58:27,511 --> 00:58:29,531
And so they had worked on this project

1469
00:58:29,531 --> 00:58:31,631
when Jesse was still on BitKey, I believe.

1470
00:58:32,331 --> 00:58:33,371
I'm certain.

1471
00:58:34,551 --> 00:58:36,171
And now Jesse has his own startup,

1472
00:58:36,171 --> 00:58:41,151
but he still very much believes in this idea they had.

1473
00:58:41,351 --> 00:58:42,911
It's called Chaincode Delegation.

1474
00:58:43,031 --> 00:58:46,511
So they published it on the Delving Forum this summer,

1475
00:58:46,711 --> 00:58:48,771
and they just recently published a BIP.

1476
00:58:49,291 --> 00:58:51,171
And the BitKey product team just announced

1477
00:58:51,171 --> 00:58:53,771
that BitKey is going to soon have this implemented.

1478
00:58:53,931 --> 00:58:54,511
So what is it?

1479
00:58:54,571 --> 00:58:56,231
Well, it improves privacy.

1480
00:58:56,371 --> 00:58:57,151
We were just talking about privacy.

1481
00:58:57,151 --> 00:59:01,371
So it is one way to improve privacy within Bitcoin,

1482
00:59:02,031 --> 00:59:05,411
and specifically for collaborative custodial solutions.

1483
00:59:05,411 --> 00:59:08,531
So BitKey is a two of three multi-sig out of the box.

1484
00:59:08,691 --> 00:59:09,271
So it's collaborative.

1485
00:59:09,911 --> 00:59:14,211
It's not only two of three, but it's collaborative in the sense that one of those keys is held by block.

1486
00:59:14,411 --> 00:59:16,311
So the customer holds two keys.

1487
00:59:16,411 --> 00:59:17,151
One's on their phone.

1488
00:59:17,391 --> 00:59:18,551
One's on their BitKey device.

1489
00:59:18,851 --> 00:59:20,051
The third key is with block.

1490
00:59:20,791 --> 00:59:26,991
So, you know, there's other solutions that are like this from Unchained and Casa and a few other companies.

1491
00:59:27,771 --> 00:59:31,511
The trade-off's always been, though, that you lose privacy.

1492
00:59:31,511 --> 00:59:40,531
Because every transaction you do, even if you don't use the key from your collaborative partner, they can see all your transactions on chain.

1493
00:59:41,591 --> 00:59:43,611
And so it's not good for privacy.

1494
00:59:44,051 --> 00:59:49,071
That the provider sees all your transactions.

1495
00:59:49,471 --> 00:59:54,551
Ideally, if you're not using their key, they don't know that you've moved.

1496
00:59:54,551 --> 00:59:55,511
Is it because of a shared XPUB?

1497
00:59:56,411 --> 00:59:57,751
It's because of a shared XPUB.

1498
00:59:57,911 --> 00:59:58,591
Yeah, exactly.

1499
00:59:58,591 --> 01:00:18,811
And so the idea behind Chaincode delegation is that you don't share the XPub with that collaboration partner. And Chaincode, in case people are not familiar with it, it's a technical term within Bitcoin and specifically BIP32 HD wallets where, let me give a little bit of history on this.

1500
01:00:18,811 --> 01:00:25,551
original Bitcoin, if you had a wallet, you'd have a private key and a public key, and you might

1501
01:00:25,551 --> 01:00:29,831
produce an address from that public key, but then I'd give you the address, you could pay me.

1502
01:00:31,331 --> 01:00:36,671
Good privacy practice is to not reuse that address. Because if I reuse that address, then

1503
01:00:36,671 --> 01:00:42,971
if you pay me next, you can learn about my payment from him, right? And the whole world can see that

1504
01:00:42,971 --> 01:00:47,071
they're linked. So you don't want to reuse an address. Well, original Bitcoin, that was like

1505
01:00:47,071 --> 01:00:48,151
a real pain in the ass.

1506
01:00:48,431 --> 01:00:49,271
Because every payment

1507
01:00:49,271 --> 01:00:49,991
I would want to receive,

1508
01:00:50,091 --> 01:00:50,851
I'd have to generate

1509
01:00:50,851 --> 01:00:53,251
a new public-private key pair,

1510
01:00:53,751 --> 01:00:54,651
and I'd have to manage

1511
01:00:54,651 --> 01:00:55,451
all those private keys,

1512
01:00:55,811 --> 01:00:56,951
especially if you're a merchant.

1513
01:00:57,451 --> 01:00:58,611
Or imagine an exchange,

1514
01:00:58,751 --> 01:00:59,711
you have millions, right?

1515
01:00:59,771 --> 01:01:00,691
So you'd have millions

1516
01:01:00,691 --> 01:01:03,611
of these unassociated

1517
01:01:03,611 --> 01:01:06,111
public-private key pairs.

1518
01:01:06,651 --> 01:01:07,931
So the HD wallets

1519
01:01:07,931 --> 01:01:08,991
created a system

1520
01:01:08,991 --> 01:01:10,091
where it's much more manageable.

1521
01:01:10,271 --> 01:01:10,891
You could just have

1522
01:01:10,891 --> 01:01:13,151
like a master private key,

1523
01:01:13,151 --> 01:01:14,131
which generates

1524
01:01:14,131 --> 01:01:15,871
everything deterministically.

1525
01:01:16,071 --> 01:01:16,911
The HD stands for

1526
01:01:16,911 --> 01:01:18,611
hierarchical deterministic wallet.

1527
01:01:19,231 --> 01:01:20,451
So you can start with one key,

1528
01:01:20,731 --> 01:01:22,231
generate a key of trees,

1529
01:01:22,591 --> 01:01:23,931
and anytime you start up,

1530
01:01:24,011 --> 01:01:25,111
if you lose all those keys,

1531
01:01:25,171 --> 01:01:26,791
but you still have your master key,

1532
01:01:26,991 --> 01:01:27,851
you can start with that

1533
01:01:27,851 --> 01:01:30,731
and regenerate all the keys you need

1534
01:01:30,731 --> 01:01:32,011
to find your funds,

1535
01:01:32,111 --> 01:01:33,071
spend your funds, etc.

1536
01:01:33,771 --> 01:01:35,351
So a massive UX plan.

1537
01:01:35,351 --> 01:01:36,291
And isn't it like you have

1538
01:01:36,291 --> 01:01:37,691
billions of addresses?

1539
01:01:38,131 --> 01:01:38,511
Basically.

1540
01:01:38,971 --> 01:01:39,691
Basically infinite.

1541
01:01:39,691 --> 01:01:41,651
But there is an order to them.

1542
01:01:41,931 --> 01:01:43,811
Yeah, it's a deterministic order.

1543
01:01:44,151 --> 01:01:46,391
So sometimes I think in the software,

1544
01:01:46,591 --> 01:01:46,871
there's like,

1545
01:01:46,911 --> 01:01:48,311
you're only looking at the next 10

1546
01:01:48,311 --> 01:01:49,391
where you don't find any,

1547
01:01:49,451 --> 01:01:50,991
or you'll kind of look ahead 10

1548
01:01:50,991 --> 01:01:51,571
until you find...

1549
01:01:51,571 --> 01:01:52,151
There's like a gap limit.

1550
01:01:52,331 --> 01:01:52,451
Yeah, gap limit.

1551
01:01:52,451 --> 01:01:53,931
So like the software wallet

1552
01:01:53,931 --> 01:01:55,171
has to determine a gap limit.

1553
01:01:55,251 --> 01:01:56,411
How many do you look ahead?

1554
01:01:56,411 --> 01:01:59,191
You want to look at all billions or infinite.

1555
01:01:59,331 --> 01:02:00,671
But the reason,

1556
01:02:00,771 --> 01:02:02,491
so within that system,

1557
01:02:02,591 --> 01:02:03,531
the HD wallet system,

1558
01:02:03,751 --> 01:02:05,451
is this notion of chain code.

1559
01:02:05,611 --> 01:02:06,351
And so that you can,

1560
01:02:06,511 --> 01:02:07,691
so from an XPUB,

1561
01:02:07,751 --> 01:02:09,471
you can derive the whole tree.

1562
01:02:09,791 --> 01:02:11,631
Like a popular way to use BTC Pay

1563
01:02:11,631 --> 01:02:14,591
as a merchant is that,

1564
01:02:15,711 --> 01:02:16,791
so if I'm a merchant,

1565
01:02:16,911 --> 01:02:20,151
I can use a third-party service running the BTCPay software.

1566
01:02:20,651 --> 01:02:22,451
All I have to do is give them my XPUB.

1567
01:02:23,051 --> 01:02:25,271
I can have, my wallet can be in cold storage,

1568
01:02:25,551 --> 01:02:27,331
and then all the payments that are accepted

1569
01:02:27,331 --> 01:02:29,571
just go straight to my cold storage wallet.

1570
01:02:29,571 --> 01:02:31,251
It's quite nice.

1571
01:02:31,871 --> 01:02:34,571
And that third-party can keep serving up invoices,

1572
01:02:34,911 --> 01:02:37,331
each one with a new, fresh address,

1573
01:02:37,851 --> 01:02:41,851
and they're just generating it from this tree, right?

1574
01:02:42,631 --> 01:02:44,271
So that's quite nice.

1575
01:02:44,271 --> 01:02:46,291
but in that scenario

1576
01:02:46,291 --> 01:02:48,571
you do lose your privacy

1577
01:02:48,571 --> 01:02:50,071
to that third party you're trusting

1578
01:02:50,071 --> 01:02:51,871
because they can see all of your wallet

1579
01:02:51,871 --> 01:02:54,051
transaction history even if

1580
01:02:54,051 --> 01:02:55,811
they're not the ones serving up the invoices

1581
01:02:55,811 --> 01:02:58,131
so back to this proposal

1582
01:02:58,131 --> 01:02:59,971
chain code delegation

1583
01:02:59,971 --> 01:03:02,011
it's where

1584
01:03:02,011 --> 01:03:04,051
if I'm using BitKey or

1585
01:03:04,051 --> 01:03:05,271
again it can be any

1586
01:03:05,271 --> 01:03:07,991
collaborative custodian, if I'm doing

1587
01:03:07,991 --> 01:03:10,151
a transaction where I'm using the keys I control

1588
01:03:10,151 --> 01:03:13,791
I don't have to

1589
01:03:14,271 --> 01:03:17,731
I don't have to share any information with the third party.

1590
01:03:17,731 --> 01:03:21,291
Instead of sharing the chain code in the XPUB

1591
01:03:21,291 --> 01:03:24,031
so that they can see all transaction history,

1592
01:03:24,711 --> 01:03:28,511
they devised a system where you only have to send a tweak

1593
01:03:28,511 --> 01:03:31,351
to just that one public-private key pair

1594
01:03:31,351 --> 01:03:34,631
so that it can still properly do velocity controls

1595
01:03:34,631 --> 01:03:37,611
and it can properly sign.

1596
01:03:38,071 --> 01:03:39,851
And one thing Jesse was telling me right before we opened the show

1597
01:03:39,851 --> 01:03:42,471
is that there's actually two variations they mentioned in the BIP,

1598
01:03:42,471 --> 01:03:45,411
one that's a blind signer and one that's a non-blind signer

1599
01:03:45,411 --> 01:03:47,311
with varying trade-offs.

1600
01:03:47,451 --> 01:03:53,071
If it's a non-blind signer, it's more practical to implement today,

1601
01:03:53,511 --> 01:03:58,051
but it would mean that the third party would still become aware

1602
01:03:58,051 --> 01:04:00,431
of transactions that you ask it to sign.

1603
01:04:01,271 --> 01:04:04,651
The blind signer, though, then they wouldn't even know about

1604
01:04:04,651 --> 01:04:06,871
the transactions that they're signing for,

1605
01:04:07,031 --> 01:04:08,971
but that would probably require something like

1606
01:04:08,971 --> 01:04:10,831
zero-knowledge-proof technology,

1607
01:04:11,131 --> 01:04:13,251
which is maybe impractical

1608
01:04:13,251 --> 01:04:15,651
for a mobile phone to be able to deliver today.

1609
01:04:15,991 --> 01:04:17,211
But high-level,

1610
01:04:17,411 --> 01:04:19,211
what does this mean for big-key customers?

1611
01:04:19,451 --> 01:04:21,011
But also, since it's an open standard

1612
01:04:21,011 --> 01:04:21,551
that they publish,

1613
01:04:21,731 --> 01:04:23,351
any other product can adopt this,

1614
01:04:23,691 --> 01:04:24,831
is improve privacy

1615
01:04:24,831 --> 01:04:26,691
when you're using a collaborative custodian.

1616
01:04:26,751 --> 01:04:28,651
So I think that Unchained and Casa

1617
01:04:28,651 --> 01:04:29,671
and other hardware wallets

1618
01:04:29,671 --> 01:04:30,891
would want to adopt this

1619
01:04:30,891 --> 01:04:32,371
to improve user privacy.

1620
01:04:32,391 --> 01:04:34,031
Is this potentially open opportunity?

1621
01:04:34,351 --> 01:04:34,791
You mentioned,

1622
01:04:34,971 --> 01:04:36,011
I don't know of any of these companies,

1623
01:04:36,011 --> 01:04:38,771
but more opportunity for businesses

1624
01:04:38,771 --> 01:04:40,971
to start basically helping to serve

1625
01:04:40,971 --> 01:04:42,811
BTC pay server for

1626
01:04:42,811 --> 01:04:44,351
companies that want to use that?

1627
01:04:46,411 --> 01:04:47,271
In a, I guess,

1628
01:04:47,331 --> 01:04:48,171
potentially more private way?

1629
01:04:48,611 --> 01:04:50,291
Well, I think in this case,

1630
01:04:50,391 --> 01:04:51,791
I'd have to think about it more,

1631
01:04:51,851 --> 01:04:53,811
but I don't know if it helps that use case

1632
01:04:53,811 --> 01:04:56,371
because the third party here is also serving up

1633
01:04:56,371 --> 01:04:59,331
like invoices for the,

1634
01:04:59,731 --> 01:05:02,531
so it's basically a UI for the merchant as well.

1635
01:05:02,771 --> 01:05:04,231
So I don't know if you'd be able to deliver

1636
01:05:04,231 --> 01:05:05,851
the same privacy in that case.

1637
01:05:06,691 --> 01:05:08,451
This would mostly be implemented

1638
01:05:08,451 --> 01:05:09,551
by these third parties

1639
01:05:09,551 --> 01:05:10,491
who are kind of

1640
01:05:10,491 --> 01:05:11,371
coordinating payments

1641
01:05:11,371 --> 01:05:12,891
on behalf of somebody else

1642
01:05:12,891 --> 01:05:13,551
who's holding it

1643
01:05:13,551 --> 01:05:15,511
in self-custody?

1644
01:05:15,771 --> 01:05:17,031
It's like a BitKey,

1645
01:05:17,131 --> 01:05:17,951
a Casa Unchained.

1646
01:05:18,231 --> 01:05:18,371
I mean,

1647
01:05:18,651 --> 01:05:20,311
so anyone using a wallet

1648
01:05:20,311 --> 01:05:20,831
where you have

1649
01:05:20,831 --> 01:05:21,731
collaborative custody,

1650
01:05:22,091 --> 01:05:22,951
which by definition

1651
01:05:22,951 --> 01:05:24,031
means you're relying

1652
01:05:24,031 --> 01:05:24,851
on a third party,

1653
01:05:25,211 --> 01:05:26,951
or you're being assisted

1654
01:05:26,951 --> 01:05:27,711
by a third party,

1655
01:05:27,831 --> 01:05:28,771
not necessarily relying

1656
01:05:28,771 --> 01:05:29,391
on the third party,

1657
01:05:29,811 --> 01:05:30,511
but you're being assisted

1658
01:05:30,511 --> 01:05:31,131
by a third party.

1659
01:05:31,251 --> 01:05:32,191
If you want to improve

1660
01:05:32,191 --> 01:05:33,471
your privacy with that third party,

1661
01:05:33,651 --> 01:05:35,931
this improvement matters.

1662
01:05:36,271 --> 01:05:36,751
And so this is

1663
01:05:36,751 --> 01:05:38,211
in a BIP-formed

1664
01:05:38,211 --> 01:05:40,251
what does it take to get from there to

1665
01:05:40,251 --> 01:05:42,091
So the draft BIP

1666
01:05:42,091 --> 01:05:44,171
BIP keys announced that they're going to

1667
01:05:44,171 --> 01:05:46,771
they're implementing this and they're going to ship it

1668
01:05:46,771 --> 01:05:48,411
and

1669
01:05:48,411 --> 01:05:50,471
you know I hope to see

1670
01:05:50,471 --> 01:05:52,291
other products adopt it as well

1671
01:05:52,291 --> 01:05:54,471
I mean other than engineering time it seems like

1672
01:05:54,471 --> 01:05:56,371
a no brainer to do it's just an overall

1673
01:05:56,371 --> 01:05:57,351
win for the customer

1674
01:05:57,351 --> 01:06:00,251
and once there's two implementations

1675
01:06:00,251 --> 01:06:02,311
then the BIP can become

1676
01:06:02,311 --> 01:06:04,531
like ratified or whatever

1677
01:06:04,531 --> 01:06:04,931
but

1678
01:06:04,931 --> 01:06:08,691
But honestly, I don't think bits really matter.

1679
01:06:08,891 --> 01:06:10,611
People put way too much weight on BIP.

1680
01:06:10,611 --> 01:06:10,631
I agree.

1681
01:06:10,771 --> 01:06:13,451
So, I mean, there are things that have been adopted

1682
01:06:13,451 --> 01:06:14,751
by the ecosystem for like a decade

1683
01:06:14,751 --> 01:06:16,771
and the BIP still isn't even like finalized or whatever

1684
01:06:16,771 --> 01:06:17,491
and like no one cares.

1685
01:06:17,711 --> 01:06:21,371
What matters is, is it a quality idea

1686
01:06:21,371 --> 01:06:22,851
and then adoption?

1687
01:06:23,071 --> 01:06:24,391
That's consensus and running code?

1688
01:06:24,511 --> 01:06:25,731
That's what matters.

1689
01:06:26,111 --> 01:06:30,171
So, you know, let's hope BitKey ships this soon

1690
01:06:30,171 --> 01:06:33,811
and it works well and people gain privacy

1691
01:06:33,811 --> 01:06:35,351
and other people follow and adopt it.

1692
01:06:35,491 --> 01:06:36,591
That's what we hope for.

1693
01:06:36,811 --> 01:06:37,051
That's cool.

1694
01:06:37,271 --> 01:06:37,411
Yeah.

1695
01:06:37,911 --> 01:06:38,091
Yeah.

1696
01:06:38,231 --> 01:06:40,011
So I think that's a pretty cool.

1697
01:06:40,331 --> 01:06:40,551
Yeah.

1698
01:06:40,731 --> 01:06:41,011
Love it.

1699
01:06:41,071 --> 01:06:41,631
Pretty cool win.

1700
01:06:41,791 --> 01:06:42,331
Love the shout out.

1701
01:06:42,611 --> 01:06:42,731
Yeah.

1702
01:06:43,111 --> 01:06:43,451
Go, Jesse.

1703
01:06:43,731 --> 01:06:46,991
How are we doing on topics here?

1704
01:06:47,711 --> 01:06:48,631
Hackathon, Cyberpunk?

1705
01:06:48,631 --> 01:06:51,391
Well, we can talk about NBA.

1706
01:06:52,131 --> 01:06:52,851
Oh, actually, yeah.

1707
01:06:52,911 --> 01:06:53,391
That's a good one.

1708
01:06:53,551 --> 01:06:54,271
Arrests and stuff.

1709
01:06:55,011 --> 01:06:55,411
Arrests?

1710
01:06:55,491 --> 01:06:56,171
I didn't even get that.

1711
01:06:56,191 --> 01:06:57,731
I was just going to say I got excited because.

1712
01:06:57,951 --> 01:06:59,731
Oh, we can start about the NBA.

1713
01:06:59,851 --> 01:07:03,131
The NBA is like off to a bang this week, right?

1714
01:07:03,131 --> 01:07:05,311
I mean, we're like two or three days into the season.

1715
01:07:06,351 --> 01:07:07,451
Chauncey Billups is in jail.

1716
01:07:07,991 --> 01:07:08,151
Yeah.

1717
01:07:08,431 --> 01:07:12,291
So we'll start with some of the athletic highlights.

1718
01:07:12,351 --> 01:07:13,151
Okay, let's start with that one.

1719
01:07:13,891 --> 01:07:16,311
So probably what you were doing last night

1720
01:07:16,311 --> 01:07:17,391
was watching the Warriors game.

1721
01:07:17,671 --> 01:07:20,271
But I got home from the Builder event last night

1722
01:07:20,271 --> 01:07:22,331
and I'm like, I missed a damn good game.

1723
01:07:23,091 --> 01:07:24,451
It was Warriors-Nuggets.

1724
01:07:25,151 --> 01:07:26,111
And it went to overtime.

1725
01:07:26,131 --> 01:07:37,177
Who won Warriors in overtime And Aaron Gordon scored 50 Career high for Denver Wow Is the most efficient 50 points

1726
01:07:37,177 --> 01:07:38,017
ever scored in the NBA.

1727
01:07:38,237 --> 01:07:39,557
17 of 21 shooting,

1728
01:07:39,757 --> 01:07:40,857
10 of 11 three-pointers.

1729
01:07:41,077 --> 01:07:41,597
What about Djokic?

1730
01:07:41,797 --> 01:07:43,717
So if I told you that Aaron Gordon

1731
01:07:43,717 --> 01:07:44,617
pulled that game off,

1732
01:07:44,697 --> 01:07:45,397
do you think the Warriors,

1733
01:07:45,617 --> 01:07:46,577
would you say the Warriors won?

1734
01:07:46,717 --> 01:07:46,937
No.

1735
01:07:46,997 --> 01:07:47,477
Absolutely not.

1736
01:07:47,497 --> 01:07:48,537
But Steph was Steph

1737
01:07:48,537 --> 01:07:49,177
and he had 42

1738
01:07:49,177 --> 01:07:50,777
and was like brilliant at the end.

1739
01:07:50,777 --> 01:07:51,657
How old is that guy now,

1740
01:07:51,697 --> 01:07:52,057
by the way?

1741
01:07:52,217 --> 01:07:52,517
Steph?

1742
01:07:52,857 --> 01:07:54,337
I looked it up because he's 37

1743
01:07:54,337 --> 01:07:55,297
and he's playing,

1744
01:07:55,297 --> 01:08:00,457
he's playing elite he has not dropped off at all what what has happened i you know and this actually

1745
01:08:00,457 --> 01:08:08,417
will tie into bitcoins as well like how is it that i feel like in in ages past like everyone

1746
01:08:08,417 --> 01:08:16,017
was done by like 33 or 34 and like now i mean lebron how old is he like 50 like like these dudes

1747
01:08:16,017 --> 01:08:20,017
keep dominating and they're like kevin durant i watched a game with him with the rockets

1748
01:08:20,017 --> 01:08:24,857
that's what i'm saying and i'm like dude he looks like he did 20 years ago so

1749
01:08:24,857 --> 01:08:40,657
So I guess my fundamental question, this is like kind of a tie into society is, are we at an age where all of the advances in technology at the very high end, if you're Steph Curry or LeBron James, you can drop infinite amounts of money and keep yourself young forever while the rest of society basically crumbles with fiat flaps.

1750
01:08:42,857 --> 01:08:43,617
That's my take.

1751
01:08:44,257 --> 01:08:53,637
But I think, I mean, I don't just people focus on the importance of nutrition and sleep before, like 20 years ago, 40 years ago.

1752
01:08:53,637 --> 01:08:56,037
I don't really think like just like Michael Jordan wasn't sleeping well.

1753
01:08:56,137 --> 01:08:59,877
I mean, not, I mean, I think at the high end, it's even more pronounced and extreme.

1754
01:09:00,077 --> 01:09:04,117
Like there's probably power law, but I think, you know, your, your average, you know, 50

1755
01:09:04,117 --> 01:09:07,497
year old probably looks a lot better today than they did 20 years ago.

1756
01:09:08,017 --> 01:09:08,377
Really?

1757
01:09:09,577 --> 01:09:10,257
I don't know.

1758
01:09:10,617 --> 01:09:11,017
I don't know.

1759
01:09:11,917 --> 01:09:12,397
Maybe not.

1760
01:09:12,777 --> 01:09:14,197
I guess just conjecture.

1761
01:09:14,497 --> 01:09:14,737
Go on.

1762
01:09:14,857 --> 01:09:15,497
Cryogen, freeze.

1763
01:09:15,637 --> 01:09:15,997
I don't know.

1764
01:09:16,037 --> 01:09:17,097
People are doing like something.

1765
01:09:17,097 --> 01:09:18,437
I go back home Midwest.

1766
01:09:18,837 --> 01:09:19,197
I don't know.

1767
01:09:19,457 --> 01:09:19,697
Okay.

1768
01:09:19,757 --> 01:09:21,137
Maybe it's living in California.

1769
01:09:21,137 --> 01:09:21,437
Yeah.

1770
01:09:21,437 --> 01:09:22,277
Also in the South.

1771
01:09:22,277 --> 01:09:24,297
not so much

1772
01:09:24,297 --> 01:09:25,597
but yeah

1773
01:09:25,597 --> 01:09:26,737
so that was a great game

1774
01:09:26,737 --> 01:09:27,837
Oklahoma City's

1775
01:09:27,837 --> 01:09:28,517
played two games

1776
01:09:28,517 --> 01:09:28,737
so far

1777
01:09:28,737 --> 01:09:29,537
both went to double

1778
01:09:29,537 --> 01:09:29,977
overtime

1779
01:09:29,977 --> 01:09:30,857
double overtime

1780
01:09:30,857 --> 01:09:32,057
and they won both

1781
01:09:32,057 --> 01:09:33,117
which I thought

1782
01:09:33,117 --> 01:09:33,777
SGA scored

1783
01:09:33,777 --> 01:09:35,297
SGA scored 55

1784
01:09:35,297 --> 01:09:35,937
last night

1785
01:09:35,937 --> 01:09:37,877
like 23

1786
01:09:37,877 --> 01:09:38,917
for 26 free throws

1787
01:09:38,917 --> 01:09:39,957
and then

1788
01:09:39,957 --> 01:09:41,077
there's some

1789
01:09:41,077 --> 01:09:42,177
rookie for Philadelphia

1790
01:09:42,177 --> 01:09:42,917
scored 34

1791
01:09:42,917 --> 01:09:43,817
in his first game

1792
01:09:43,817 --> 01:09:44,217
wow

1793
01:09:44,217 --> 01:09:45,497
anyway

1794
01:09:45,497 --> 01:09:46,837
exciting start

1795
01:09:46,837 --> 01:09:47,697
oh and then

1796
01:09:47,697 --> 01:09:49,077
did you see Wemby's game?

1797
01:09:49,477 --> 01:09:49,577
no

1798
01:09:49,577 --> 01:09:51,877
I'll send you the highlights

1799
01:09:51,877 --> 01:09:52,157
okay

1800
01:09:52,157 --> 01:09:53,037
It's ridiculous.

1801
01:09:53,297 --> 01:09:54,617
But, I mean, Wemby is Wemby,

1802
01:09:54,697 --> 01:09:57,977
but he is more assertive and more powerful this season,

1803
01:09:58,057 --> 01:09:59,237
it looks like, in this first game.

1804
01:09:59,517 --> 01:10:00,357
He scored 40.

1805
01:10:01,557 --> 01:10:05,017
He was, I mean, the dude, he, like, blocked the shot,

1806
01:10:05,357 --> 01:10:07,857
grabbed the rebound, dribbled the full length of the court,

1807
01:10:08,317 --> 01:10:11,817
was defended, like, started driving to the basket,

1808
01:10:12,277 --> 01:10:15,157
to the free throw line, stepped back, hits the three,

1809
01:10:15,277 --> 01:10:16,557
gets fouled, makes a four-point play.

1810
01:10:16,877 --> 01:10:18,657
I mean, so he looks like an MVP candidate.

1811
01:10:18,757 --> 01:10:19,177
He's ridiculous.

1812
01:10:19,517 --> 01:10:19,717
Yeah.

1813
01:10:19,717 --> 01:10:25,897
but well i i have to give a shout out so i didn't get to watch this game sadly but i did watch

1814
01:10:25,897 --> 01:10:29,797
the highlights and one thing i enjoy doing now is just watching the highlights and putting on some

1815
01:10:29,797 --> 01:10:36,997
like just like filthy raunchy 90s memphis rap and just watching jaw do his thing i gotta say um

1816
01:10:36,997 --> 01:10:43,617
the john moran redemption season is underway and i am super here for it jaw's looking great

1817
01:10:43,617 --> 01:10:48,457
his hair is looking great his uh his game is looking great he looks happy and all we need is

1818
01:10:48,457 --> 01:10:54,977
a happy jaw. Happy jaw is a winning jaw. And 35 in his first game. He's not dunking anymore

1819
01:10:54,977 --> 01:10:57,297
because he's got to preserve those knees, which I as a long-term.

1820
01:10:57,497 --> 01:10:58,577
Really, he's not flying through the air?

1821
01:10:58,817 --> 01:11:02,757
Not as much, but even his layups. I mean, he's got some like, look at the highlights. He's got

1822
01:11:02,757 --> 01:11:08,037
some sick. I mean, he's a special player. He's got some sick layups. Nike has made it clear

1823
01:11:08,037 --> 01:11:12,777
they're investing him. I think jaw could be the face of the league. He's a lot more fun than,

1824
01:11:12,777 --> 01:11:14,717
what's his name? The dude in LA.

1825
01:11:16,617 --> 01:11:17,017
Not

1826
01:11:17,017 --> 01:11:18,317
Braun, but the other guy.

1827
01:11:18,877 --> 01:11:19,977
Oh, Luca. Yeah, Luca.

1828
01:11:21,337 --> 01:11:23,037
Ja's so much more fun. So anyway, so I'm excited about

1829
01:11:23,037 --> 01:11:24,217
DK has no idea what we're talking about.

1830
01:11:24,897 --> 01:11:26,617
We're like literally speaking code.

1831
01:11:26,877 --> 01:11:27,697
But he does not understand.

1832
01:11:28,137 --> 01:11:29,977
Rough consensus right now.

1833
01:11:30,397 --> 01:11:32,657
But Ja is, just so you are aware,

1834
01:11:32,737 --> 01:11:34,597
he's previously had some entanglements

1835
01:11:34,597 --> 01:11:36,757
with the law, but he seems to be okay now.

1836
01:11:36,917 --> 01:11:38,717
But nothing like what...

1837
01:11:39,457 --> 01:11:40,457
So just so the audience knows,

1838
01:11:40,557 --> 01:11:42,077
there's a Bitcoin

1839
01:11:42,077 --> 01:11:44,377
aspect of what we're talking about.

1840
01:11:44,497 --> 01:11:46,037
I didn't know there was a Bitcoin asset.

1841
01:11:46,257 --> 01:11:47,037
I barely heard.

1842
01:11:48,037 --> 01:11:50,597
Was it yesterday or two years ago?

1843
01:11:50,817 --> 01:11:51,757
Breaking news.

1844
01:11:52,817 --> 01:11:54,177
FBI arrests

1845
01:11:54,177 --> 01:11:56,557
Chauncey Billups, head coach of the Portland

1846
01:11:56,557 --> 01:11:57,317
Trailblazers.

1847
01:11:57,697 --> 01:11:59,277
And former player for, he was what?

1848
01:11:59,677 --> 01:12:02,717
He was a champion with Detroit.

1849
01:12:02,717 --> 01:12:02,997
Detroit.

1850
01:12:04,497 --> 01:12:06,397
Played for Colorado in college.

1851
01:12:06,517 --> 01:12:06,717
Really?

1852
01:12:07,117 --> 01:12:08,797
I grew up watching him.

1853
01:12:08,917 --> 01:12:11,937
And then

1854
01:12:11,937 --> 01:12:13,857
there's a

1855
01:12:13,857 --> 01:12:15,737
player was arrested and like a former

1856
01:12:15,737 --> 01:12:17,597
coach or player was arrested for

1857
01:12:17,597 --> 01:12:18,837
for gambling

1858
01:12:18,837 --> 01:12:21,557
and like throwing

1859
01:12:21,557 --> 01:12:23,877
games and like links to the Italian

1860
01:12:23,877 --> 01:12:25,777
mafia. Still? They're still around?

1861
01:12:26,817 --> 01:12:27,657
Italian mafia?

1862
01:12:27,857 --> 01:12:29,217
They're still rigging games? Damn.

1863
01:12:29,837 --> 01:12:31,897
And somehow I saw some Twitter theory I didn't follow

1864
01:12:31,897 --> 01:12:33,897
up so it's probably just like nonsense but it all links

1865
01:12:33,897 --> 01:12:35,797
back to like Louisville and Rick Pitino or something

1866
01:12:35,797 --> 01:12:35,977
but

1867
01:12:35,977 --> 01:12:39,517
that dude has a checkered past

1868
01:12:39,517 --> 01:12:40,977
in any case

1869
01:12:40,977 --> 01:12:44,457
yeah, and then

1870
01:12:44,457 --> 01:12:46,217
you can go look at some of the games,

1871
01:12:46,417 --> 01:12:48,217
disputed games, and this player was

1872
01:12:48,217 --> 01:12:50,757
airballing it. It was crazy.

1873
01:12:50,837 --> 01:12:51,697
What about John Cunningham?

1874
01:12:52,097 --> 01:12:54,337
But the latest

1875
01:12:54,337 --> 01:12:56,637
gambling apps, it's not

1876
01:12:56,637 --> 01:12:58,537
just like, oh, I think this team's

1877
01:12:58,537 --> 01:13:00,277
going to win or lose, but you can do these prop bets

1878
01:13:00,277 --> 01:13:01,817
throughout the game. Real-time.

1879
01:13:01,817 --> 01:13:03,857
Real-time prop bets throughout the game.

1880
01:13:04,197 --> 01:13:06,097
Specific players, specific things.

1881
01:13:06,617 --> 01:13:08,257
So this one player, he's accused

1882
01:13:08,257 --> 01:13:08,557
of

1883
01:13:08,557 --> 01:13:11,157
he's accused of telling

1884
01:13:11,157 --> 01:13:13,517
bettors ahead of time, I'm going to leave the game

1885
01:13:13,517 --> 01:13:15,237
after like nine minutes and guess what?

1886
01:13:15,277 --> 01:13:17,417
He left the game after nine minutes and then all

1887
01:13:17,417 --> 01:13:18,577
the prop bets, like, so

1888
01:13:18,577 --> 01:13:21,137
the people with this insider information

1889
01:13:21,137 --> 01:13:23,497
took the under on what he's going to do

1890
01:13:23,497 --> 01:13:25,397
in the game because he left the game after nine minutes

1891
01:13:25,397 --> 01:13:26,797
and they won a lot of money.

1892
01:13:28,457 --> 01:13:29,017
And so

1893
01:13:29,017 --> 01:13:30,817
that's going down, but

1894
01:13:30,817 --> 01:13:32,177
I think it

1895
01:13:32,177 --> 01:13:35,557
and then someone, one of you guys sent out

1896
01:13:35,557 --> 01:13:36,257
there's some

1897
01:13:36,257 --> 01:13:38,217
a new sports betting app.

1898
01:13:38,397 --> 01:13:39,037
That made me...

1899
01:13:39,037 --> 01:13:40,017
You sent out, right?

1900
01:13:40,197 --> 01:13:41,137
No, definitely not.

1901
01:13:41,217 --> 01:13:42,057
I don't do sports betting.

1902
01:13:42,557 --> 01:13:43,137
I saw...

1903
01:13:43,137 --> 01:13:43,977
Maybe someone sent it to me

1904
01:13:43,977 --> 01:13:44,497
and I heard it.

1905
01:13:44,557 --> 01:13:45,537
Anyway, there's...

1906
01:13:45,537 --> 01:13:46,737
But it just made me think.

1907
01:13:46,877 --> 01:13:48,417
DK and I actually invested

1908
01:13:48,417 --> 01:13:49,197
in an investor like

1909
01:13:49,197 --> 01:13:50,317
seven, eight years ago.

1910
01:13:51,117 --> 01:13:52,277
Ex-Facebook guy

1911
01:13:52,277 --> 01:13:53,517
who created...

1912
01:13:53,517 --> 01:13:55,217
He was creating a gambling app

1913
01:13:55,217 --> 01:13:56,017
and we thought it was

1914
01:13:56,017 --> 01:13:57,537
super compelling vision because...

1915
01:13:57,537 --> 01:13:58,537
And it was on prop bets.

1916
01:13:59,237 --> 01:13:59,997
It was on prop bets.

1917
01:14:00,097 --> 01:14:00,517
I didn't even know

1918
01:14:00,517 --> 01:14:01,257
what a prop bet was

1919
01:14:01,257 --> 01:14:02,397
until he told me about it.

1920
01:14:02,477 --> 01:14:04,317
But so the Supreme Court

1921
01:14:04,317 --> 01:14:05,837
had a ruling like a decade ago

1922
01:14:05,837 --> 01:14:10,457
which made it so that federally it wasn't illegal to do sports betting.

1923
01:14:10,577 --> 01:14:12,737
And that's enabled each state to decide what to do.

1924
01:14:12,857 --> 01:14:15,617
And so slowly over time, more and more states have made it legal.

1925
01:14:16,717 --> 01:14:18,137
So we knew this opportunity.

1926
01:14:18,477 --> 01:14:20,677
We knew there's always demand for sports betting.

1927
01:14:22,377 --> 01:14:25,877
And I think there can be healthy sports betting that doesn't rig games, right?

1928
01:14:26,117 --> 01:14:27,337
This sounds shitty, to be honest.

1929
01:14:27,937 --> 01:14:33,117
And then, but what's funny about that app,

1930
01:14:33,117 --> 01:14:34,837
they built out the PropBets app.

1931
01:14:34,837 --> 01:14:36,557
it's called Betty Labs.

1932
01:14:37,157 --> 01:14:39,257
And then they pivoted though.

1933
01:14:39,597 --> 01:14:43,157
They pivoted right when Clubhouse was like a big deal.

1934
01:14:43,337 --> 01:14:44,497
There's like that window of time

1935
01:14:44,497 --> 01:14:46,577
where everyone was talking about Clubhouse

1936
01:14:46,577 --> 01:14:47,377
and using Clubhouse.

1937
01:14:47,397 --> 01:14:48,517
Everyone was locked in their homes.

1938
01:14:49,077 --> 01:14:52,297
And then Betty Labs decided to pivot,

1939
01:14:52,617 --> 01:14:53,837
literally just clone that.

1940
01:14:53,837 --> 01:14:56,457
And then they got acquired by Spotify months later

1941
01:14:56,457 --> 01:14:58,737
for hundreds of millions of dollars.

1942
01:14:59,357 --> 01:14:59,997
For real?

1943
01:15:00,417 --> 01:15:00,657
Yeah.

1944
01:15:01,117 --> 01:15:02,897
It was like one of our best investments ever.

1945
01:15:02,897 --> 01:15:05,437
and it wasn't even what we invested in.

1946
01:15:06,957 --> 01:15:07,877
In any case,

1947
01:15:08,117 --> 01:15:10,317
in any case,

1948
01:15:10,517 --> 01:15:11,717
how does this relate to Bitcoin?

1949
01:15:11,977 --> 01:15:12,577
I mean, we talked before,

1950
01:15:12,737 --> 01:15:13,937
Bitcoin and gambling are,

1951
01:15:14,317 --> 01:15:17,117
like, Bitcoin is a good currency for gambling

1952
01:15:17,117 --> 01:15:19,937
because gambling is often illegal in places

1953
01:15:19,937 --> 01:15:21,857
or gray area or regulated or whatever.

1954
01:15:22,717 --> 01:15:23,857
It's one of those things.

1955
01:15:23,937 --> 01:15:24,597
You need that privacy.

1956
01:15:25,117 --> 01:15:26,017
Yeah, you need privacy.

1957
01:15:26,437 --> 01:15:28,417
But also, I think it's not,

1958
01:15:28,797 --> 01:15:30,317
again, it depends on what you're talking about.

1959
01:15:30,377 --> 01:15:31,757
But in general, like, yeah,

1960
01:15:31,837 --> 01:15:32,477
like,

1961
01:15:32,897 --> 01:15:36,277
in general gambling, I have no ethical issue with.

1962
01:15:36,377 --> 01:15:38,317
Obviously, people are fixing games and stuff.

1963
01:15:38,317 --> 01:15:39,977
Yeah, that makes it no longer fun.

1964
01:15:40,977 --> 01:15:43,317
But just like without fixing games,

1965
01:15:43,437 --> 01:15:45,557
like gambling, I have no ethical issue with.

1966
01:15:46,517 --> 01:15:50,817
So I do wonder, like, why isn't Bitcoin more?

1967
01:15:50,897 --> 01:15:53,657
I mean, we have seen evidence of Bitcoin being used for gambling.

1968
01:15:53,657 --> 01:15:54,777
Yeah, with Bitcoin Dice, right?

1969
01:15:54,797 --> 01:15:55,757
That was like the original use.

1970
01:15:56,077 --> 01:15:57,837
Yeah, but even like recent,

1971
01:15:58,197 --> 01:16:00,337
I discovered some gambling websites that use Bitcoin

1972
01:16:00,337 --> 01:16:03,977
and saw some data that shows that it's growing in trends.

1973
01:16:04,137 --> 01:16:06,737
I think it's real, but I'm just surprised it's not more.

1974
01:16:07,157 --> 01:16:07,817
Like it's the main thing.

1975
01:16:08,057 --> 01:16:11,057
Because, I mean, sports betting in America is like $150 billion business.

1976
01:16:11,397 --> 01:16:11,577
For real?

1977
01:16:12,397 --> 01:16:17,317
82% of college males bet on sports.

1978
01:16:17,437 --> 01:16:17,617
Really?

1979
01:16:17,697 --> 01:16:18,837
It's like insanely popular.

1980
01:16:18,837 --> 01:16:22,897
I've got a friend who has like, these kids are like 16 or 18-year-old.

1981
01:16:22,997 --> 01:16:24,777
He said they just bet on everything.

1982
01:16:25,257 --> 01:16:26,577
Like any random thing.

1983
01:16:26,577 --> 01:16:27,237
This sounds extremely unhealthy.

1984
01:16:27,237 --> 01:16:31,877
They're just betting about like a teacher's going to do something in school and they create

1985
01:16:31,877 --> 01:16:32,817
a prop bet on it.

1986
01:16:33,157 --> 01:16:35,897
It's like huge in the culture right now if you're like a kid.

1987
01:16:36,617 --> 01:16:39,077
So, I mean, look, I don't have ethical qualms exactly.

1988
01:16:39,417 --> 01:16:41,417
I mean, like I think whatever free markets, people can do what they want.

1989
01:16:41,437 --> 01:16:43,017
But like it does seem like something's broken.

1990
01:16:43,217 --> 01:16:44,377
Like everyone's just betting on everything.

1991
01:16:44,877 --> 01:16:45,717
I don't know.

1992
01:16:45,917 --> 01:16:47,157
Maybe it's around becoming a boomer.

1993
01:16:47,297 --> 01:16:49,057
I think it's a symptom of the boomer.

1994
01:16:49,137 --> 01:16:51,357
Like boomers had kind of had it easy, right?

1995
01:16:51,357 --> 01:16:54,077
Like they sort of like just go to college, get a job, buy a house.

1996
01:16:54,217 --> 01:16:55,077
Like everything just works out.

1997
01:16:55,077 --> 01:17:01,237
And I think now people are getting to a point where it's like, you can't just kind of play the system and win.

1998
01:17:01,397 --> 01:17:06,237
You kind of have to do something on the edge, something that's maybe too risky, but then a few pay off.

1999
01:17:06,357 --> 01:17:08,077
And then that becomes the attraction because...

2000
01:17:08,937 --> 01:17:10,577
Max is okay with 100x leverage.

2001
01:17:10,697 --> 01:17:12,077
He's okay with OnlyFans.

2002
01:17:12,717 --> 01:17:14,057
He's okay with drugs.

2003
01:17:14,457 --> 01:17:17,337
But betting a dollar on a profit, that's too much.

2004
01:17:17,717 --> 01:17:18,177
I'm just joking.

2005
01:17:18,457 --> 01:17:20,337
It just seems, I mean, I hear you.

2006
01:17:20,497 --> 01:17:20,857
It just seems like...

2007
01:17:20,857 --> 01:17:24,237
I'm saying it's like more of a symptom of the culture, the symptom of the structure.

2008
01:17:24,237 --> 01:17:26,037
It seems like something is ill in society.

2009
01:17:26,477 --> 01:17:27,877
I agree with you.

2010
01:17:28,017 --> 01:17:29,957
It's all about moderation. I have no issue

2011
01:17:29,957 --> 01:17:31,397
with betting. I've bet myself.

2012
01:17:31,677 --> 01:17:32,857
We do March Madness pools.

2013
01:17:34,457 --> 01:17:36,177
It's social

2014
01:17:36,177 --> 01:17:36,597
and fun.

2015
01:17:37,217 --> 01:17:40,037
I haven't

2016
01:17:40,037 --> 01:17:41,817
done one of these prop betting apps, but I would

2017
01:17:41,817 --> 01:17:43,657
totally do it and have fun with it. It's like entertainment.

2018
01:17:43,657 --> 01:17:45,177
If I go to Vegas, I'll play a little bit.

2019
01:17:45,477 --> 01:17:46,237
It's all about moderation.

2020
01:17:46,517 --> 01:17:51,337
If it's the mafia, if you're addicted,

2021
01:17:51,497 --> 01:17:53,757
if it ruins your life, obviously that's crossing the line.

2022
01:17:53,757 --> 01:17:55,497
but you can say that about almost anything.

2023
01:17:55,737 --> 01:17:55,937
Anything.

2024
01:17:56,237 --> 01:17:57,457
And most technology, like, yeah.

2025
01:17:57,917 --> 01:17:59,097
Yeah, I mean, it is what it is.

2026
01:17:59,377 --> 01:18:01,397
I mean, one question I have, right,

2027
01:18:01,437 --> 01:18:02,157
is because I, you know,

2028
01:18:02,217 --> 01:18:03,497
one thing that Bitcoin has, I guess,

2029
01:18:03,537 --> 01:18:04,877
taught me is to look at the incentives of things.

2030
01:18:05,157 --> 01:18:06,697
So one question I have immediately is like,

2031
01:18:06,757 --> 01:18:08,777
okay, well, if players are doing this,

2032
01:18:08,857 --> 01:18:10,037
they can make money doing this, right?

2033
01:18:10,057 --> 01:18:11,237
So one question I have is like,

2034
01:18:11,237 --> 01:18:12,277
are they just not making them enough

2035
01:18:12,277 --> 01:18:13,677
from the game itself, right?

2036
01:18:13,737 --> 01:18:15,057
The player that was arrested,

2037
01:18:15,277 --> 01:18:17,277
I think he's on like a $96 million contract.

2038
01:18:17,437 --> 01:18:18,117
So that, like, what the fuck?

2039
01:18:18,337 --> 01:18:19,837
But I mean, it's just like everything.

2040
01:18:20,157 --> 01:18:23,057
And I think he won like thousands of dollars

2041
01:18:23,057 --> 01:18:23,837
at all for this gambling.

2042
01:18:24,057 --> 01:18:24,937
So I think it's more...

2043
01:18:24,937 --> 01:18:25,357
Thousands of dollars.

2044
01:18:25,437 --> 01:18:26,417
Yeah, I think it's like psychological.

2045
01:18:26,857 --> 01:18:27,477
Like it's like...

2046
01:18:27,477 --> 01:18:29,077
It's just like feeling the feel of a win.

2047
01:18:29,817 --> 01:18:32,057
So I think I saw this, where was it?

2048
01:18:32,237 --> 01:18:32,817
Like, I don't know,

2049
01:18:32,857 --> 01:18:34,457
maybe it was like on Twitter

2050
01:18:34,457 --> 01:18:35,317
and speaking of addiction,

2051
01:18:35,457 --> 01:18:37,637
but like one of these guys,

2052
01:18:38,197 --> 01:18:39,597
I saw some NBA player.

2053
01:18:39,597 --> 01:18:41,517
I mean, I sometimes feel like

2054
01:18:41,517 --> 01:18:42,777
in my own little boomer world,

2055
01:18:42,977 --> 01:18:44,537
like this is shocking,

2056
01:18:44,617 --> 01:18:45,657
but when I moved back from Mexico

2057
01:18:45,657 --> 01:18:46,297
a couple of years ago,

2058
01:18:46,317 --> 01:18:47,737
I didn't even know what Apple pay is, right?

2059
01:18:47,817 --> 01:18:49,597
So like it is what it is.

2060
01:18:49,897 --> 01:18:51,097
I knew all about Bitcoin payments.

2061
01:18:51,177 --> 01:18:51,937
I was like, Apple pay?

2062
01:18:51,957 --> 01:18:52,577
What the fuck is this?

2063
01:18:52,577 --> 01:18:53,717
How do I enable this thing?

2064
01:18:54,137 --> 01:18:56,437
So I've been a boomer at various points of my life.

2065
01:18:57,077 --> 01:18:57,777
Proudly so.

2066
01:18:59,097 --> 01:19:02,057
But like, I mean, in this clip,

2067
01:19:02,217 --> 01:19:04,677
the guy's sitting there on the floor,

2068
01:19:04,777 --> 01:19:06,037
like floor side seats, I guess.

2069
01:19:06,857 --> 01:19:08,617
And I think it was even, it was preseason.

2070
01:19:08,717 --> 01:19:11,037
It was preseason because the game's just started.

2071
01:19:11,577 --> 01:19:12,597
And he's there squatting.

2072
01:19:12,677 --> 01:19:14,697
He's like, bro, I just need you to score one more basket.

2073
01:19:14,697 --> 01:19:15,177
Come on, man.

2074
01:19:15,297 --> 01:19:16,477
I'm just down one basket.

2075
01:19:16,837 --> 01:19:18,177
And the player, I don't even know who the player was,

2076
01:19:18,237 --> 01:19:19,557
but looked back and said, you have an addiction.

2077
01:19:20,717 --> 01:19:21,637
It's preseason.

2078
01:19:21,877 --> 01:19:22,417
Like, relax.

2079
01:19:22,577 --> 01:19:23,797
I mean, I don't know.

2080
01:19:24,217 --> 01:19:26,377
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

2081
01:19:26,497 --> 01:19:26,997
I hear you.

2082
01:19:27,177 --> 01:19:28,957
People can do with Bitcoin whatever they want,

2083
01:19:29,037 --> 01:19:31,017
but I hope we one day get to a world

2084
01:19:31,017 --> 01:19:33,597
where it's not dopamine and, I don't know.

2085
01:19:33,617 --> 01:19:36,617
It may be the GLPs save everybody.

2086
01:19:37,957 --> 01:19:39,657
Like today, they're mostly used for weight loss.

2087
01:19:39,877 --> 01:19:40,917
But you don't use it for addiction battling.

2088
01:19:41,037 --> 01:19:41,657
Yeah, I've heard about that.

2089
01:19:41,657 --> 01:19:43,217
Yeah, but I think a lot of people are saying

2090
01:19:43,217 --> 01:19:45,657
just the way it regulates your dopamine

2091
01:19:46,257 --> 01:19:49,277
actually breaks you up addictions and stuff like that.

2092
01:19:49,317 --> 01:19:50,137
So if you're addicted to Twitter,

2093
01:19:50,277 --> 01:19:50,977
you're addicted to gambling.

2094
01:19:51,497 --> 01:19:51,977
I don't know, man.

2095
01:19:51,977 --> 01:19:54,297
I'm just like, it's become Amish.

2096
01:19:54,557 --> 01:19:54,677
Yeah.

2097
01:19:55,237 --> 01:19:57,497
What you're saying resonates. I agree.

2098
01:19:58,237 --> 01:20:00,437
We got like 10 minutes left. Let's talk a little bit of

2099
01:20:00,437 --> 01:20:02,137
Strike had an announcement of

2100
01:20:02,137 --> 01:20:03,777
Bitcoin back loans.

2101
01:20:04,797 --> 01:20:05,777
Another Bitcoin back.

2102
01:20:06,177 --> 01:20:08,277
The announced

2103
01:20:08,277 --> 01:20:10,377
Bitcoin back loans a few months ago. We talked

2104
01:20:10,377 --> 01:20:11,137
about it on the show.

2105
01:20:11,857 --> 01:20:14,317
What they announced this week was

2106
01:20:14,317 --> 01:20:15,657
a line of credit.

2107
01:20:16,377 --> 01:20:17,697
So I don't know. What's the difference?

2108
01:20:18,097 --> 01:20:20,277
Well, that's sort of thing we should talk about.

2109
01:20:20,837 --> 01:20:21,917
Theoretically. I don't think

2110
01:20:21,917 --> 01:20:25,257
any of us studied the product to know exact details to compare,

2111
01:20:25,377 --> 01:20:28,637
but what is the difference between a loan and a line of credit?

2112
01:20:29,317 --> 01:20:30,097
Let's talk about that.

2113
01:20:30,197 --> 01:20:31,477
Now, first of all, with the loans,

2114
01:20:31,677 --> 01:20:32,977
I think a lot of people, when they think of a loan,

2115
01:20:33,037 --> 01:20:34,117
they think of a long-term loan.

2116
01:20:34,237 --> 01:20:36,977
You get a 30-year or 15-year home loan

2117
01:20:36,977 --> 01:20:39,317
or a five-year car loan or something.

2118
01:20:39,877 --> 01:20:41,257
Now, most of the Bitcoin lending products

2119
01:20:41,257 --> 01:20:43,857
are not 5, 15, or 30 years.

2120
01:20:44,297 --> 01:20:46,397
They're like, the one presented yesterday

2121
01:20:46,397 --> 01:20:50,757
was 30 days up to a year.

2122
01:20:50,757 --> 01:20:53,397
and I think that's what we've seen

2123
01:20:53,397 --> 01:20:56,017
from Lava and others as well.

2124
01:20:56,317 --> 01:20:57,657
It's like less than one year,

2125
01:20:57,897 --> 01:20:58,997
shorter term.

2126
01:20:59,597 --> 01:21:01,357
Now, line of credit is,

2127
01:21:01,877 --> 01:21:03,257
and I think you might know more

2128
01:21:03,257 --> 01:21:05,197
about general concept of line of credit

2129
01:21:05,197 --> 01:21:07,477
than maybe me.

2130
01:21:07,477 --> 01:21:07,977
Tell us more.

2131
01:21:09,517 --> 01:21:11,177
But it's a different,

2132
01:21:11,477 --> 01:21:12,737
it is a degenerate gambler.

2133
01:21:16,257 --> 01:21:17,517
We don't want to talk about it.

2134
01:21:17,517 --> 01:21:20,117
He's got his prop that line of credit

2135
01:21:20,117 --> 01:21:21,837
It's 100x profit.

2136
01:21:25,277 --> 01:21:27,137
It's obviously credit as well,

2137
01:21:27,497 --> 01:21:29,537
but it's definitely different than a loan.

2138
01:21:29,597 --> 01:21:30,037
I mean, it's like,

2139
01:21:30,197 --> 01:21:32,057
duration's different.

2140
01:21:32,317 --> 01:21:34,597
And I do suspect this product

2141
01:21:34,597 --> 01:21:36,237
is packaged up differently

2142
01:21:36,237 --> 01:21:38,377
than taking out a loan.

2143
01:21:38,797 --> 01:21:39,657
But do you have, like,

2144
01:21:39,797 --> 01:21:40,637
can you tell us more about

2145
01:21:40,637 --> 01:21:41,937
maybe line of credit in general

2146
01:21:41,937 --> 01:21:43,517
and how it compares to like a loan?

2147
01:21:43,717 --> 01:21:44,937
Yeah, tell us more.

2148
01:21:45,077 --> 01:21:46,657
Well, yeah, I don't mean to represent

2149
01:21:46,657 --> 01:21:48,257
the financial services industry.

2150
01:21:48,257 --> 01:22:03,077
I mean, I guess I wouldn't claim any expertise in this, but I would talk about like a loan, you know, usually thinking about it as like maybe a fixed term, maybe there's an origination fee, there's a payback period and, you know, an APR or something.

2151
01:22:03,417 --> 01:22:10,457
And so, you know, maybe if you do a one year loan and then you want it to go on for a second year, maybe you have to renegotiate terms.

2152
01:22:10,457 --> 01:22:14,397
Maybe you have to figure out an effective way to roll the loan over.

2153
01:22:14,397 --> 01:22:16,697
and so you take out a new loan

2154
01:22:16,697 --> 01:22:18,017
and part of your new loan

2155
01:22:18,017 --> 01:22:18,877
pays back the proceeds

2156
01:22:18,877 --> 01:22:19,777
of the old loan

2157
01:22:19,777 --> 01:22:22,077
or kind of your debt due

2158
01:22:22,077 --> 01:22:22,757
on the old loan

2159
01:22:22,757 --> 01:22:23,797
and you kind of keep

2160
01:22:23,797 --> 01:22:25,277
inching it forward

2161
01:22:25,277 --> 01:22:26,637
but you have to make

2162
01:22:26,637 --> 01:22:27,737
more explicit decisions.

2163
01:22:27,997 --> 01:22:28,377
It's kind of

2164
01:22:28,377 --> 01:22:29,357
at least my understanding.

2165
01:22:29,477 --> 01:22:30,277
I don't know if that's

2166
01:22:30,277 --> 01:22:31,517
sort of what the financial services

2167
01:22:31,517 --> 01:22:32,117
issue would say.

2168
01:22:32,517 --> 01:22:33,117
And then a line of credit

2169
01:22:33,117 --> 01:22:33,917
is a little bit more like

2170
01:22:33,917 --> 01:22:35,237
I want to spend some

2171
01:22:35,237 --> 01:22:36,257
so I'm going to get

2172
01:22:36,257 --> 01:22:37,657
even to use this

2173
01:22:37,657 --> 01:22:39,017
like I have a line of credit

2174
01:22:39,017 --> 01:22:40,397
I'm going to spend down

2175
01:22:40,397 --> 01:22:41,397
from this line

2176
01:22:41,397 --> 01:22:43,337
and those can also be

2177
01:22:43,337 --> 01:22:44,377
collateralized by

2178
01:22:44,377 --> 01:22:47,577
equities or ETFs or whatever.

2179
01:22:49,217 --> 01:22:51,217
But it's not like a fixed term.

2180
01:22:51,737 --> 01:22:52,957
It's kind of constantly rolling.

2181
01:22:53,697 --> 01:22:56,757
APR changes daily based on SOFR and a spread.

2182
01:22:57,657 --> 01:22:59,537
And you're just kind of constantly rolling it forward.

2183
01:22:59,697 --> 01:23:02,157
So when I think about a line of credit,

2184
01:23:02,937 --> 01:23:04,837
one of the things that I would think about is

2185
01:23:04,837 --> 01:23:08,877
what are you collateralizing for your credit?

2186
01:23:09,037 --> 01:23:10,137
And what is the growth rate of that?

2187
01:23:10,177 --> 01:23:12,457
And then what is the cost of capital for that line of credit?

2188
01:23:12,457 --> 01:23:36,157
And as long as you've got a healthy spread there, you know, you're probably going to be good. So if you think I was talking through an example with a friend, a mutual friend the other day. And if you like if you believe that Bitcoin, you know, if you look at historical CAGR, I would guess that's not going to happen. But future CAGR is going to be a muted version of that, but not muted like treasuries is going to be muted.

2189
01:23:36,157 --> 01:23:38,457
like instead of 100% year over year,

2190
01:23:38,517 --> 01:23:41,397
you're going to get 50% or 40% or 30%.

2191
01:23:41,397 --> 01:23:42,777
It'll probably decrease 10 years out.

2192
01:23:42,877 --> 01:23:44,217
Maybe you only get 20% a year.

2193
01:23:44,497 --> 01:23:46,157
And it's volatile and stuff.

2194
01:23:46,637 --> 01:23:48,397
But if your cost of capital is otherwise,

2195
01:23:48,657 --> 01:23:50,797
you know, 4, 5, 6, 7%.

2196
01:23:50,797 --> 01:23:51,637
Speculative attack.

2197
01:23:52,037 --> 01:23:56,397
You can actually just run your life off of that.

2198
01:23:56,917 --> 01:23:57,877
Micro strategy for your life.

2199
01:23:58,177 --> 01:24:00,017
Then there's also, I mean, credit cards, right?

2200
01:24:00,097 --> 01:24:02,217
Which is another form of credit and debt.

2201
01:24:03,317 --> 01:24:05,897
And so I don't know if the strike announcement

2202
01:24:05,897 --> 01:24:08,817
is more like line of credit or credit card.

2203
01:24:10,077 --> 01:24:11,037
But I do think there's,

2204
01:24:11,997 --> 01:24:13,797
I'm glad it exists.

2205
01:24:13,937 --> 01:24:15,817
It's yet another recipe that's different than others.

2206
01:24:16,297 --> 01:24:17,437
And we'll see what adoption's like.

2207
01:24:17,657 --> 01:24:18,277
I'm curious to see what it's like.

2208
01:24:18,557 --> 01:24:19,457
I will just come back.

2209
01:24:19,537 --> 01:24:21,437
I mean, I feel like I'm increasingly becoming

2210
01:24:21,437 --> 01:24:24,217
like the old man Orthodox person here on the show.

2211
01:24:24,577 --> 01:24:26,397
I don't know if, I haven't actually read it.

2212
01:24:26,437 --> 01:24:27,037
I look forward to it

2213
01:24:27,037 --> 01:24:29,977
because I really appreciate everything Alan Farrington writes.

2214
01:24:29,977 --> 01:24:33,097
He just wrote a new piece on Islamic finance and Bitcoin,

2215
01:24:33,237 --> 01:24:34,437
which I'm extremely excited about.

2216
01:24:34,437 --> 01:24:36,457
and the TODR is basically

2217
01:24:36,457 --> 01:24:37,637
and it's not just Islam

2218
01:24:37,637 --> 01:24:38,677
but in many religions

2219
01:24:38,677 --> 01:24:39,537
usually is legal

2220
01:24:39,537 --> 01:24:41,957
and yeah I don't know

2221
01:24:41,957 --> 01:24:43,197
is it legal or illegal?

2222
01:24:43,217 --> 01:24:43,577
Illegal

2223
01:24:43,577 --> 01:24:46,398
and I've always come back to this

2224
01:24:46,398 --> 01:24:46,797
of like

2225
01:24:46,797 --> 01:24:47,977
we talked about this on that show

2226
01:24:47,977 --> 01:24:49,398
maybe we should revisit this

2227
01:24:49,398 --> 01:24:50,057
at some point in the future

2228
01:24:50,057 --> 01:24:51,677
of like what the world looks like

2229
01:24:51,677 --> 01:24:52,757
when it's backed by a hard money

2230
01:24:52,757 --> 01:24:53,957
or like an equity world

2231
01:24:53,957 --> 01:24:54,837
versus a debt world

2232
01:24:54,837 --> 01:24:56,277
and you know I get it

2233
01:24:56,277 --> 01:24:56,898
like it's

2234
01:24:56,898 --> 01:24:58,497
you're not going to go from zero

2235
01:24:58,497 --> 01:24:59,197
to a hundred

2236
01:24:59,197 --> 01:25:01,357
there has to be a transition period

2237
01:25:01,357 --> 01:25:01,997
you need to like

2238
01:25:01,997 --> 01:25:03,437
kind of like fit Bitcoin

2239
01:25:03,437 --> 01:25:05,097
into the existing financial services,

2240
01:25:05,517 --> 01:25:06,898
fit Bitcoin into the existing mindset.

2241
01:25:07,237 --> 01:25:08,817
But I don't know, part of me is like,

2242
01:25:08,877 --> 01:25:10,317
I do, I don't know,

2243
01:25:10,497 --> 01:25:11,917
I hope over time people just like,

2244
01:25:12,937 --> 01:25:14,857
we don't need all these tricky debt things.

2245
01:25:15,477 --> 01:25:17,157
Even like, yes, Bitcoin back loans,

2246
01:25:17,297 --> 01:25:17,757
great business.

2247
01:25:17,898 --> 01:25:19,577
Obviously I'm an investor in one of these companies,

2248
01:25:19,657 --> 01:25:20,217
a couple of these companies.

2249
01:25:20,777 --> 01:25:23,077
But I do hope we get to a world one day

2250
01:25:23,077 --> 01:25:24,377
where that's not even necessary.

2251
01:25:24,657 --> 01:25:26,217
I'm not sure though that it makes sense

2252
01:25:26,217 --> 01:25:27,317
to say it's not necessary

2253
01:25:27,317 --> 01:25:30,277
because money is ultimately like allocation of resources

2254
01:25:30,277 --> 01:25:32,677
and time and energy, right?

2255
01:25:32,677 --> 01:25:39,417
and there's people who are like let's say you're let's say you're you know 16 years old and you

2256
01:25:39,417 --> 01:25:43,637
need to what do you need to buy a car go to school whatever you need money for something

2257
01:25:43,637 --> 01:25:48,077
that you're going to be like you need to arbitrage time right credit is really just a way to

2258
01:25:48,077 --> 01:25:55,117
arbitrage time now it had i think credit in general has kind of an appropriate bad rap because

2259
01:25:55,117 --> 01:26:00,237
it's not just it's not really in service of the consumer it's really in service of the platform

2260
01:26:00,237 --> 01:26:01,537
because none of it's auditable

2261
01:26:01,537 --> 01:26:04,337
and there's all kinds of bad terms

2262
01:26:04,337 --> 01:26:05,297
that get snuck in there.

2263
01:26:05,337 --> 01:26:06,797
It all sees people hooked like profit.

2264
01:26:07,177 --> 01:26:07,617
Yeah, yeah.

2265
01:26:07,617 --> 01:26:08,497
That's what I was going to say.

2266
01:26:08,597 --> 01:26:09,597
It can be abused as well.

2267
01:26:09,737 --> 01:26:12,217
I mean, if you don't pay off your credit card debt,

2268
01:26:12,317 --> 01:26:16,117
you're paying 21% rates against that.

2269
01:26:16,537 --> 01:26:18,417
You're digging yourself a hole forever.

2270
01:26:18,417 --> 01:26:18,537
Totally.

2271
01:26:19,057 --> 01:26:20,617
I mean, one thing I think about, though,

2272
01:26:20,617 --> 01:26:21,357
is I hear you.

2273
01:26:21,477 --> 01:26:23,217
And I mean, we've chatted before about this.

2274
01:26:23,297 --> 01:26:26,297
It's like, what is the role of debt in a Bitcoin world?

2275
01:26:26,577 --> 01:26:28,117
Like, I think there will still be some.

2276
01:26:28,117 --> 01:26:30,217
I think it's going to be dramatically less than we have today.

2277
01:26:30,317 --> 01:26:31,657
I think you're going to see a lot more equity.

2278
01:26:31,857 --> 01:26:33,457
And I think, so the hurdle rate of like Bitcoin, right?

2279
01:26:33,497 --> 01:26:35,117
So in a world where you go from 2-3% inflation

2280
01:26:35,117 --> 01:26:37,697
to 2-3% deflation, just as an example,

2281
01:26:38,177 --> 01:26:39,997
all of a sudden now it's like, if I'm lending,

2282
01:26:40,197 --> 01:26:42,277
like that's a much higher hurdle where you have to hit.

2283
01:26:42,317 --> 01:26:43,437
So this better be a damn good loan.

2284
01:26:43,917 --> 01:26:46,117
Where I think things, where I'm curious

2285
01:26:46,117 --> 01:26:48,177
and I think some interesting innovation could be is,

2286
01:26:48,557 --> 01:26:49,597
I mean, look, I'm all for making money,

2287
01:26:49,697 --> 01:26:51,417
but like if you can do that in a way

2288
01:26:51,417 --> 01:26:52,757
that aligns incentives better.

2289
01:26:53,277 --> 01:26:56,257
And so I think about, actually I think mutual friends of ours,

2290
01:26:56,537 --> 01:26:57,437
friends of mine from Collagen,

2291
01:26:57,437 --> 01:26:59,398
and I think friends of y'all's from other form of life

2292
01:26:59,398 --> 01:27:02,398
or moment of life, Upstart, the company.

2293
01:27:03,377 --> 01:27:04,597
Now, when they got started,

2294
01:27:05,637 --> 01:27:06,977
in fact, one of my buddies from college

2295
01:27:06,977 --> 01:27:08,117
was their guinea pig.

2296
01:27:08,837 --> 01:27:12,457
The idea was you buy equity in someone's upside.

2297
01:27:12,777 --> 01:27:13,957
So instead of, I'm a young person

2298
01:27:13,957 --> 01:27:14,997
and you're arbitraging time,

2299
01:27:15,137 --> 01:27:16,377
one way to do that is, here's a loan.

2300
01:27:16,457 --> 01:27:17,257
You have to pay me back.

2301
01:27:17,398 --> 01:27:17,857
Good luck.

2302
01:27:18,398 --> 01:27:21,097
Another way is, okay, like startup investing,

2303
01:27:21,557 --> 01:27:24,257
I want to get a buy a percentage of your future cash flows.

2304
01:27:24,257 --> 01:27:26,657
Yeah, that's dicier for me.

2305
01:27:26,657 --> 01:27:27,517
I mean, it may happen.

2306
01:27:27,937 --> 01:27:29,557
You're like selling off your life.

2307
01:27:30,257 --> 01:27:30,957
Yeah, it's also risky.

2308
01:27:31,117 --> 01:27:34,477
I'd rather sell off some future capped amount.

2309
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,357
I think debt is a better product in that case than equity.

2310
01:27:38,977 --> 01:27:39,398
I think it depends.

2311
01:27:39,477 --> 01:27:40,937
I think all these things come back to it.

2312
01:27:40,957 --> 01:27:41,737
Yeah, they're all just tools.

2313
01:27:42,157 --> 01:27:44,777
It's also hard to like legalize and quantify.

2314
01:27:45,037 --> 01:27:47,577
Legalize meaning like actually spell out.

2315
01:27:48,037 --> 01:27:48,997
Yeah, what do you own?

2316
01:27:49,257 --> 01:27:49,777
What do you own?

2317
01:27:49,777 --> 01:27:50,437
Yeah, I mean, I get it.

2318
01:27:50,457 --> 01:27:51,317
It's a slippery slope to slavery.

2319
01:27:51,577 --> 01:27:53,817
But like, so is debt.

2320
01:27:53,817 --> 01:27:57,057
I think debt is a more capped version, but yeah.

2321
01:27:57,737 --> 01:28:00,957
But I would say ultimately these are tools of arbitraging time.

2322
01:28:01,097 --> 01:28:01,977
Right, exactly.

2323
01:28:02,317 --> 01:28:05,857
And so if you want to build a data center with a bunch of solar,

2324
01:28:06,517 --> 01:28:09,017
who might want to do that, gentlemen?

2325
01:28:09,237 --> 01:28:10,117
It doesn't exist today.

2326
01:28:10,237 --> 01:28:11,237
Somebody needs to pay for it.

2327
01:28:11,277 --> 01:28:14,437
Somebody has to take risk, and you're going to take risk and time

2328
01:28:14,437 --> 01:28:15,557
and bake those together.

2329
01:28:16,398 --> 01:28:20,457
And equity is useful in certain cases where you need an unkept upside,

2330
01:28:20,457 --> 01:28:22,777
but if you're going to own the panels that you could redeploy

2331
01:28:22,777 --> 01:28:26,537
in case they fail, you actually have it collateralized by those panels to some extent.

2332
01:28:26,657 --> 01:28:28,377
So actually, maybe debt is a better version.

2333
01:28:28,777 --> 01:28:33,617
I'm actually not opposed to the concept of debt, though a lot of people use debt in very

2334
01:28:33,617 --> 01:28:35,157
irresponsible ways.

2335
01:28:35,677 --> 01:28:38,477
But I think the concept is not bad.

2336
01:28:38,657 --> 01:28:42,517
It's just misused, abused, not kind of properly employed.

2337
01:28:42,597 --> 01:28:47,917
But if you employ it appropriately, it can actually help you achieve your goals in a better

2338
01:28:47,917 --> 01:28:48,937
way than anything else.

2339
01:28:48,937 --> 01:28:54,777
Perhaps. I mean, I hear you and there's probably always gradations and it depends on the specific

2340
01:28:54,777 --> 01:28:59,817
circumstance. Equity in its best form though, what I like about this is in terms of incentives,

2341
01:29:00,017 --> 01:29:05,917
number one, if the venture fails, you're off the hook. So that's very important. I think that's a

2342
01:29:05,917 --> 01:29:10,757
critical, critical aspect. One thing with debt is if the venture fails for whatever reason,

2343
01:29:10,937 --> 01:29:14,497
and perhaps you just misprice the risk or whatever, that becomes sort of an albatross.

2344
01:29:14,637 --> 01:29:16,857
And then there's bankruptcy. It doesn't have to.

2345
01:29:16,857 --> 01:29:17,957
It totally depends on the terms.

2346
01:29:17,997 --> 01:29:18,697
It depends on the terms.

2347
01:29:18,777 --> 01:29:20,277
It depends on the country you're doing and all that.

2348
01:29:21,037 --> 01:29:22,737
But the other thing that's nice about equity,

2349
01:29:22,837 --> 01:29:23,537
when it's used correctly,

2350
01:29:23,637 --> 01:29:25,337
maybe there needs to be a capped upside,

2351
01:29:25,477 --> 01:29:26,657
perhaps to start as a nonprofit

2352
01:29:26,657 --> 01:29:27,697
and then become a company.

2353
01:29:31,457 --> 01:29:33,037
There's abuse all over the place.

2354
01:29:33,037 --> 01:29:33,357
Exactly.

2355
01:29:33,437 --> 01:29:33,957
There's abuse everywhere.

2356
01:29:34,177 --> 01:29:37,577
But one thing that is really nice is in theory,

2357
01:29:37,577 --> 01:29:39,917
and this was the idea of Upstart in the early days,

2358
01:29:40,337 --> 01:29:43,777
was it aligns the equity holders

2359
01:29:43,777 --> 01:29:44,937
to want to help that person.

2360
01:29:44,937 --> 01:29:49,457
And so the idea is to try and grow the pie and not just claw back no matter what.

2361
01:29:49,557 --> 01:29:51,357
And I do think those are very different mindsets.

2362
01:29:51,477 --> 01:29:54,437
The mindset of let's grow the pie versus I'm clawing no matter what.

2363
01:29:56,217 --> 01:29:56,617
Cool.

2364
01:29:57,197 --> 01:29:58,917
Should we wrap it at that?

2365
01:29:59,917 --> 01:30:00,237
All right.

2366
01:30:00,317 --> 01:30:00,857
Good show, guys.

2367
01:30:00,977 --> 01:30:01,317
Thanks, guys.