All right, Friday at noon, welcome to the Presidio Bitcoin Jam.
And welcome to all of our new visitors here from LinkedIn.
Yes, we're now streaming to LinkedIn.
We're streaming live on LinkedIn.
And I just learned that Max is a LinkedIn maximalist.
I have become a LinkedIn maximalist, guys.
How did that happen?
Yeah, I thought I was going to defect from Twitter and run to Nostra.
It's LinkedIn.
I'm not even kidding.
I don't know where to start this, but fuck it.
Let's start here.
we're going to talk more about what we just announced this week,
type 1 summit, some serious things to discuss.
But can I just say, the alpha is on LinkedIn.
Twitter, as you said, there's so much damn content you're posting.
There's noise.
On LinkedIn, everybody and their sister's on LinkedIn,
and ain't nobody posting anything interesting.
I've got so much more interest and feedback in our event on LinkedIn,
and I'm shocked.
You've got to watch your NSFW mouth.
Oh.
It's work. It's literally work.
Also, I've got to call you out for a second on here.
Uh, actually shout out to Anjali cause she found this.
I don't know why we were talking about people come into the event.
She looked at your profile and said, yo, what is going on with DK going unhinged?
Come at me, bro.
Yeah.
That's my LinkedIn profile.
That's my bio.
That's your bio.
What is going on with this unhinged bio?
I don't know.
What are you going to say?
Come at me, bro.
Should we come at you?
Like connect.
Let's go.
The spiciest thing I've seen on LinkedIn.
I know by far.
I think there's not like as much range bait on LinkedIn too.
The algo probably doesn't optimize for that yet, at least.
Yeah, exactly.
Furtle ground.
And to be clear, most content on LinkedIn sucks.
Like most of us are just like, oh, congratulations, I'm doing a thing.
But you actually have something interesting to post.
Max is now insulted about half the viewership.
Yeah, whatever.
It's trash.
But everyone's there and everyone's addicted.
And because it's all trash, there's opportunity.
So if you're not already LinkedIn maxing, like I highly agree.
But that would require us to be putting out good content.
Wow.
Speaking of good content,
I'm going to do a quick product review.
It has nothing to do with Bitcoin or software.
You got new running shoes?
I got new running shoes.
How did I guess that?
It was not revealed in the chat.
I didn't tell you that.
Wow, good guess.
Seems like you guys have known each other for a while.
I bought the OG Nike Vaporflies
like six, seven years ago.
That's with the carbon plate in it, right?
I mean, there's been studies after study,
and Strava Davis shows it makes a material difference
on your performances,
whether it be on the track or marathons or whatever.
Are they legal?
To the tune of 4%.
Are they legal for Olympic marathon?
Yes, they're legal.
So I've had them for a long time,
but they wear out quickly,
so I usually just reserve them for the track.
You get like 200 miles on them or something, right?
Something like that.
Only 200 miles?
Why is that?
That's even nothing.
They're brittle shoes.
that are performance.
I know nothing about tracks.
It's like if you have a Formula 1 car.
You wouldn't drive it to a whole...
Or performance tires versus reliable.
As someone who knows nothing,
would it be better just to do it barefoot?
No.
Especially these shoes.
As soon as you put them on and run,
you feel the performance increase.
It's crazy.
Really?
I'd be curious if you timed yourself barefoot
versus the shoes, how much they make a difference.
Barefoot is definitely not the fastest.
anyway so I've had those shoes a long time but yet they have like something like 170 miles on them
they're tattered um so I bought the latest and greatest vaporflies the vaporfly 4s and I've got
to say they're the coolest looking shoe that I've ever seen they're amazingly cool looking but I wore
them today on the track and this is made in void little disappointed in the performance oh no I had
read reviews where nothing's like the OGs
and I actually agree with those reviews. They both
feel, they don't feel as much,
they don't feel as fast as the OG, Vaporflies
and
my times in the 800 intervals were
slightly worse.
Okay, but then what are your times in the 800
intervals?
I was expecting one or two seconds
per 800 faster due to
fitness gains. Not even the shoes.
Maybe even a boost because of the shoes.
And I was one second slower.
And anyone who does 800 intervals knows that one second is significant.
The fitness gains you're talking about here.
How do we know there are fitness gains?
Well, I mean, it's not like a controlled test, right?
These are some three-minute 800s, I'm sure.
There are some barely, though.
With these new shoes, barely some three minutes.
But anyway, a little disappointed, but they are the coolest-looking shoes ever.
You also bring up a very important, I think this is like a life philosophy question.
many of us have to struggle with. And it's a choice we all have to make, which is the end of
the day, you know, performance matters. Of course, we all want to win and do well with that we're
doing, but also so does swag, right? And so sometimes there is a trade-off between performance
and swag. And I think about this, like in the game of basketball, it's like, all right, you want to
be the best? You're Michael Jordan, but that man's kind of a psychopath, right? Do you really want to
be Michael Jordan? No. You want to be Allen Iverson. He didn't actually win the championship, but this
man's out here, you know, he's wild now. He's having a good time. Practice. You want to talk
about practice.
And so sometimes, you know, you still want to do well,
of course, but like, yeah. So I kind of like having
both pair of shoes. There you go. When I want to
perform my best or look my best. There you go.
What about Scotty Pittman? Isn't he the Bitcoiner?
Pittman? Oh, that. But he doesn't need a shit
coiner. Scotty Pimpin.
Most celebrities are Bitcoiner
turned shit coiner.
Whatever pumps are. It sounds like Paris
Sulton or something. I don't know. Maybe.
Anyhow, did you mention
something about Type 1 Summit?
Oh. Well, thank you for
that excellent layup.
Alley-oop talking about swag.
What is type one?
What does that even mean?
Yeah, great question.
So, Carter Sheff scale,
everyone's probably heard of this,
or maybe you haven't heard of this.
Sci-fi, very popular among nerds, I suppose.
But the idea is that...
And he wrote, he's an author, right?
Science fiction author, yeah.
Who wrote a few books.
Was it a particular book
that this term came from?
That's a good question.
I actually don't know.
I mean, it's become such a popular term.
I don't remember which book originated from.
But anyways, the gist of it is,
is that taking a step back,
as civilization, we are direct, like our advancement, our evolution is directly proportional to how much
energy we can harness and use. And so this is something that's always bothered me, even though
I definitely consider myself an environmentalist. We'll talk about solar and all this stuff. I've
been in that industry and that world for decades at this point, almost decades. But I really,
really kind of despise this idea of like, use less. And so dude, use less. Like the whole history
of humanity, the whole history of bringing people out of poverty, doing new stuff,
of pushing the frontiers is literally directly correlated to using more energy. That's it.
Like if you, if you wanted to track one metric, one metric to say, where is, where are we at as
a society? It's how much energy have we harvested for productive or however you want to define that
purposes. And so the car is more, more energy naturally becomes better use of energy. That's
correct. Those, those kind of go hand in hand and people seem to, I think, get a little twisted
about it. Like using more energy, then the goal, you find you're using more energy and able to
accomplishment where you're like, quick, let's use it more efficiently. So in effect, that's like a
yin and yang kind of tug and pull that is kind of aligned with the environmentalist ideal.
Totally.
Right? So it's really both.
Yeah. And as we're using more energy, we're doing so in a much more efficient, much cleaner,
much more, I guess you're going to say, humanitarian way. So we can get into all that.
But the Kardashev scale itself, type 1, type 2, type 3, type 1, you use all the energy from your
star hitting your planet. So that would be all the radiation that hits the earth. Type two would be
use all the energy from your sun itself. So you build like it's like a Dyson sphere or something
around the sun. Type three would be all from your, so I guess that solar system, all your galaxy.
I have no idea how the hell you get to type three. Type one is very, very, very doable. Type two
actually is pretty doable. But even type one from here, that's a hugely ambitious goal. It's not
like we're, where are we? Are we 2% in or 5% in? Well, we were debating this in our signal chat.
We're three to four orders of magnitude away.
That's right.
Away from 100%.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
But much closer than my intuition.
Like my intuition before looking at the numbers or really having any idea at all was six to
seven orders of magnitude like a million, 10 million times away.
But it's only like a thousand times away.
Yeah.
Wow.
Three to four.
So anyways.
It feels like, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Next week.
It's like, yeah.
Matter of time.
One, as we start accelerating, right?
And I think one of the other things you have to keep in mind, there's so many things,
But like, when we talk about Bitcoin, we talk about this technology, it's, you can't look
at anything like in isolation because everything affects everything else, right?
So it was like, is all of our technology like just, you know, skyrockets on the AI front?
Well, when we talk about that, that increases energy demand.
And as we have, you know, Bitcoin is what I see is energy backed money and the ability
to coordinate markets much better.
That allows things to move faster.
And so it's really hard to like, it's really hard to predict how long these things are
going to take, which is why one of my other core theses in life is just like, don't ask
all the questions. Don't be the guy in the middle of the curve or in the middle of the bell curve.
If you see a curve like a Moore's law, or you see a curve of, I don't know, there's other laws I'm
forgetting the names of, but if you see some curve that's directly relation between how much of
something we deploy and the cost of something, don't ask too many questions, just roll with it.
Because that's emergent intelligence. And that's one of my core beliefs in life is the human mind
is limited. We can use the mind for very certain things, but at the end of the day, nature's
intelligence is far greater than ours. So type one summit, you know, if we're three to four orders
of magnitude away from using all of the sun's energy that's hitting our planet, you know,
it's interesting because if you zoom out, it's like, we think we're so advanced and, you know,
and, and, you know, and we just have so many just like political quibblings and all this
bullshit argumentation. It's like, dude, we're so early in civilization. If you can, if you can just
zoom out, just zoom out a little bit. It's like one day, the way that we look at a lot of ancient
civilizations, although there's a question of how far an ancient civilization has gotten,
That's a different rabbit hole.
We could go down if you want.
We're going to talk Mars?
We could talk Mars, for sure.
I was going to say the Asian Egyptians and the Athanas.
I know.
I knew who.
Do you know offhand how much energy hits Mars?
I don't.
That'd be interesting.
One of the guys I'm a big fan of that I shout out to this dude, Casey Hannemer, who's taking
my solar maximals on mainstream, all of Silicon Valley.
We'll talk about this.
They've been very skeptical, but I think he has the best blogger.
That man.
Say it again.
What was it?
Casey Handerburn.
He's the guy that runs Terraformer Industries.
I've been reading his blog.
I've been just binging it for the last several months.
He's starting to go mainstream now.
I think he was on the Dworkesh Palad a couple weeks ago,
which is kind of bringing him to the mainstream.
And I mean this with all the affection in the world,
like very high Tiz.
You read the articles, and it's just like,
he goes through every calculation as highly as you want,
like everything you want.
So he's got an article just on the Mars one,
and I would recommend.
Basically, just read his blog.
I didn't look at the deep, but I saw NASA just reported
there's evidence of microbial life in Mars history,
which is interesting.
I didn't even know that.
Perseverance, was that the name of the rover or whatever?
Yep.
And then someone also linked to a harvard.edu post
talking about evidence of nuclear power in Mars history.
I didn't read that either.
Wait a second.
But it came from harvard.edu.
So it must be true.
It must be true.
the fed.gov
is
just make sure
you're back
for that
when we
tapped out
the energy
on the earth
we can go
I will say though
never in my wildest dreams
I'm used to being
someone that brings
a little bit more
provocative ideas
never did I expect
Steve to make me go
dude what the fuck
there was life on Mars
we got the evidence baby
it might have ended
in tragedy
yeah
yeah exactly
so anyway
so yeah
there's rabbit holes
of how many times we've been through this.
Interesting question.
Are we just going through another call right now?
Yes, that's another interesting rabbit hole.
But coming back to what we can do with our world today,
you know, again, I think,
and if it, we're probably going through
something like the great filter right now,
which is like, will we survive or will we not?
And as a species, I mean, we have nuclear weapons,
we have all this stuff that's really, really bad
and people that are angry at each other
and all this fucked up stuff.
But we also have incredible technologies,
like energy technologies like solar,
one day nuclear, but for now solar storage.
We have, you know, something like Bitcoin,
which is probably the greatest human coordination tool ever invented.
And we have Nostra.
We have all these incredible building blocks.
And so if we make it through here and we're, you know,
a thousand years in the future,
people will one day look back at our civilization and be like,
dude, these guys were so primitive.
They were using, you know, just a tiny fraction of their energy.
They were trapped on this rock.
And anyways, yeah, I think we're going to shoot for the stars and beyond.
So that's part of the thesis.
The short-term thesis for the Type 1 Summit is also, if I put on more of my investor hat and where are we in the world today, there is a very specific need we have to, I would call it, free electricity markets or to build the internet of electricity.
So over the last several months,
so for those of you who don't know,
my background is originally in solar energy.
So back in the early 2010s,
I got fully solar pilled by Ramez Nam
and a few other guys.
It was like the Casey Hennemer before Casey Hennemer.
I think he actually solar pilled Casey.
Shout out to Ramez.
He's actually going to come to our event.
So we're chatting about it next week.
That's amazing.
Great.
Alpha League.
Good get, yeah.
Yeah, he's the man.
I think he was also,
he was at the Singularity Institute
and so it was like tight with Kurzweil and those guys.
And he's got some fascinating books also
about like a human computer interaction, which we'll talk more about. Very, very good futurist.
And anyways, so I got fully solar pilled. And basically the thesis when I got fully solar
pilled was every doubling of cumulative capacity of solar installed, the levelized cost of
electricity, the end cost of electricity comes down by, we thought at the time, 20, 25% turns
out as more like 40, 42%. I think 42 is the number Casey is quoting. Storage batteries,
lithium ion batteries, and there's other materials, there's other formulas you could use for batteries.
But lithium ion batteries have been on a similar cost curve, which is to say every double
cumulative capacity installed, you end up with something like 20 to 25% reduction in
the levelized cost of full cycle storage.
And so again, you know, left side of the curve, zoom out, don't ask why, don't ask questions.
I mean, the high level answer to why similar to something like Moore's law is economies
of scale and getting better with production.
Both of these technologies are technologies that you can just mass produce over and over
and over and over again.
And as you get better and you build more factories and you have more expertise, similar to computer chips.
In fact, what is a solar panel, but a little thing of, you know, silicon that takes a photon and converts it to an electron?
Which, by the way, I heard someone mention that we should call solar panels quantum converters.
Way sexier, way better.
But it's very similar and similar to lithium ion batteries.
You get these economies of scale.
The more you make as you mass produce, you get all these benefits of bringing down the cost.
And so, yeah, I've been following this for well over a decade.
Everyone who's ever made a prediction about this has, including Mez himself, has been wrong and always to the under.
Always.
Every single time.
And so then at some point, there's always this kind of running joke in the energy circles where you have the IEA, the International Energy Agency.
I don't know if it's international.
I think it's international.
And they're kind of similar to what we'd expect from Fed.gov or Harvard.edu.
And every year, every year, you know, it's so fucking funny.
every year with solar panels, they would show, okay, so from last year to this year,
there was a whatever, 40%, 30%, whatever numbers are using, reduction in the levelized cost of
electricity. But this year, it's going to flatline. And the next year, it would go down 20%, 30%.
And they'd be like, okay, so there's another 20% to 30% reduction in the cost of electricity,
but this year, it's going to flatline. Was there a reason that they thought it was going to flatline
and again and again?
It felt like there was some limitation
to the ability to shrink the converters or something?
I don't know anyone at the IEA,
but my high-level take is the same reason
that all of our centralized institutions are collapsing.
Everything is...
Maybe they were long Exxon or something.
Maybe they were long Exxon.
That's the even more cynical view.
I was even going to be less cynical and just say,
most people in these positions of power,
you don't lose your job for saying it's going to go up 2%.
Right.
you lose your job if you make some what sounds like a crazy person you know prediction and you're
wrong um so this doesn't apply to bitcoin price predictors right hey man the bitcoiners are
already crazy so there's there's no one judging us um anyways so so that keeps happening and so
i've been just following these curves closely for well over a decade and um you know at the same
time obviously i've been very deep into bitcoin i see bitcoin as energy-backed money satoshi
Energy, one of my portfolio companies, really, really pilled me on that about five years ago.
We've talked about this, but I literally, at the end of the day, I think it's a commodity currency.
I think we're going to have the ability to answer empirical questions like what percentage of the
world's monetary or energy supply is necessary to secure the monetary supply, which the gold bugs
have asked, but no one's been able to answer because it's all sort of theoretical. I think
we're going to answer that in our lifetime. Shout out to Drew Bansel for posing that question.
And by the way, shout out, I don't even know if you guys know this yet, but I mentioned this
to Mark or to our friend Mark, Mark, if you're listening, and thinking a little bit more about
this in the context of I have a crazy idea for who could be doing this research and related to
our PBJ discussion of who are the economists and who's going to study Bitcoin. Anyways, there's all
this energy stuff. But yeah, so I've seen all this happening over years. And, you know, it's
been interesting to me, but obviously my focus in the last couple of years has been more on Nostra,
more on the Lightning Network, more on scaling Bitcoin. In the last several months, a few things
have changed my perspective on the world.
One thing is,
without doxing anyone's numbers or whatever,
basically the companies I know
that started off in Bitcoin mining,
still a great business,
but like across the board
have started like pivoting into AI
and holy shit,
I have never seen anything like this
in my entire life.
Without again,
revealing anyone's numbers,
but just look at Crusoe,
look at Satoshi,
look at all of these companies.
Like, dude, it's just like,
it's just like a vertical line,
a vertical line.
And the, I mean,
you can read all,
I mean, you can read my essay.
It's hivemind.vc slash grid.
I lay all this out in excruciating detail.
But like the majority of this
is being driven by data centers, right?
So depending on, you know, whose numbers you look,
you have Zuckerberg committing to, you know,
hundreds of billions of dollars
to build, you know, data centers the size of Manhattan.
You've got Google kind of stealthily.
Google is like, Google's gangster now.
They're doing this, signing, you know,
sort of like quiet deals to build
one and three gigawatt scale data centers right now,
mostly solar and battery,
which we'll talk about. You've got Anthropics saying you need 50 gigawatts by 2028. You've
just got all these things. And then you've got Elon, the original Solar Maxi, who's the
most solar-pilled person in the world, saying he wants to build one terawatt of compute.
These numbers sound grandiose. They sound insane. But I mean, I'm not going to fade
Elon, are you? And you see all these companies basically saying, if you trust the scaling
laws like Leopold, the guy that we discussed
a couple weeks ago.
Do you believe we just...
I started listening to...
He is on a podcast with
Dworkett.
It's like four hours long.
That's good.
And I learned how to pronounce the last name, but I already
forget. It definitely wasn't what you said.
I feel a little mad about that. I'm sorry.
I don't want to say Ashenbrenner, but...
That sounds right.
We already gave some love for the Tiz. I apologize.
They have a name. But anyways,
Um, he basically is just like, trust the curves.
Scaling laws are not dead.
We just need a lot more compute.
He's calling for hundreds of gigawatts.
I think he's going to end up being like Mez was in the early 2010s.
Um, he's the most bullish person I know predicting stuff, but I think he's going to be too conservative.
Because whenever you see a J curve, never take the hundred.
That's my general thesis.
So you need all this compute.
Problem is the grid as we have it today.
And there's not really just one grid.
There's actually, you know, you look at it kind of three grids.
And then there's a lot of subgrids below that, but like East, West, Texas.
because Texas always does its own thing.
And the more you drill into things,
the more you realize our grid cannot take
the amount of compute we're trying to bring online.
Impossible, impossible.
So context, ERCOT,
which is the freest electricity market in the world in Texas,
80 gigawatts of peak load or peak demand right now.
What that means is whenever it's hot in Texas,
which usually every summer,
you got all the ACs running,
you have the industrial smelters doing their smelting,
the businesses are running whatever they're running,
the computers, the data centers,
they already have there,
which I don't know if it's a super hot spot,
but I imagine there's some.
That's 80 gigawatts.
The amount of demand to interconnect
mostly AI data centers right now,
I think I already told you,
you already read the essay, but.
Tell us.
Like 140, at least.
So basically double that.
And the AI boom is still very early And it not just Texas You can go to all the different states around the world and just see you know the TLDR is the amount even in Michigan which was shocking to me You have a question Go ahead
Yeah. Even in Michigan, what's shocking to me, which is like a much, much smaller market,
you have at least a doubling and sometimes like a tripling or more of all of the existing load
asking to get built. Now, for the energy people in the audience, I will give the caveat. Yes,
these queues are often over subscribed and a lot of these projects don't plan to get built and
because and this is one of the ways we're gonna go there why is that because it's so fucking hard
to get an internet connect to the grid that you throw in every possible application humanly
possible you try and get all the finance you can because you know most of these are not getting
approved and just having that sweet sweet sweet sweet spot on the line is so important that yes
these are and that's the problem by the way these are numbers that are inflated but even if you like
discount them heavily. We're talking about increasing the grid in a way that we've never
done. Do you know offhand how much solar has been built out that's been built out? So it's not like
a proposal, but it's been built out waiting to get connected and just sitting there.
Well, typically you don't just have stuff built out waiting to get interconnected. There might be
some, but generally you get the interconnect first because that's the project. Okay. So when you have
the project finance for this stuff, the project financier, and these are typically really big
funds or really big banks or funds like TPG or whatever, they need basically assurance
that there's an off-taker and generally an interconnect.
And so a lot of these projects will only get billed.
They'll break ground on it once they know it's going to happen.
There might be other examples of that.
Maybe people that are deep in the industry can share some other examples, but that's
generally the way it works.
How much delay is there once you get that interconnect approval?
How long from that until you're producing it?
Well, that's a great question. And that's changing in real time. So right now, the interconnection
queues, and I don't know, this is interconnection queues, this may not be from approval. So I don't
know that specific piece of this, but five years. It's insane. And it's gotten way worse in the last
couple of years. So I assume anybody who I mean, I agree with all of the the stuff you're laying
out sounds very rational and logical. I think historically, it feels like these maybe like
people doing the grid and generation and production were separate from the consumption of energy.
But I think because there's all these big dollars being thrown around like AI data centers,
they know that they're going to exceed the grid. How much do you think they're saying,
we also need to plan for the energy? Or are they saying we need to find third-party providers? Or
how does that dynamic work?
Well, I'm not sure I understand your question. Who?
So Zuckerberg says, I'm going to spend $600 billion in the US.
And he's like, we need to build tons of data centers because AI stuff's going off the rails.
Is he saying, I hope somebody shows up with the energy?
Or is he saying, we need to fix the energy thing for ourselves?
That's a good question.
I think it differs company by company.
So generally speaking, my understanding is they probably do for them internal.
I'm not an expert.
If there's people at the hyperscalers, we'd love to get more of the hyperscalers coming to our summit.
We've got the energy people.
Awesome.
If you know hyperscalers or cloud folks,
we definitely want to get more of those folks in the room
to better understand the details.
The core weaves of the world?
The core weaves, which hopefully we'll get.
Chase, hopefully, from Crusoe is going to be a yes.
But we'd also love to get folks.
No pressure, Chase.
Yeah, no pressure.
If you're listening to this, shout out.
Chase is a day zero, high mine LP as well.
But we need decision makers from the big companies.
And so I guess it differs company by company.
Zuck may be a little different because he can just do some more of what he wants.
But generally speaking, I think they would contract out to someone else to actually build
the energy infrastructure piece of this.
I don't know if they actually want to own the data centers themselves or not.
There's one entity that does that.
I would say in almost all the hyperscalers, I think they do want to own the data centers.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
And so I'm just wondering, because the energy piece of it is such a big risk, and it's also
kind of like strategic. If you have a third party who could turn it off, then you're kind of like,
you know, in a bad power dynamic with them. So if you're like, look, I'm going to go build out
this huge data center. Are you also saying I'm also going to build out the energy for my data
center? Or are they like, historically, they've been a little more separate, but it seems to me
that those would converge. Yeah. Generally, you do have both parties agree. So you have an off
So whoever is the solar or whatever, any energy generation site builder, they're going to have a contract with a hyperscaler to get going.
And even then, by the way, it's a very interesting, another company in my portfolio is Sonoda, Austin Mitchell, who is also sort of an expert on the energy staff, also going to come.
He has made the point that even in those worlds, so much of this industry is risk-driven.
because even if you say,
I have this contract from Google,
like they could still back out.
And so there's always this risk of like,
how do we know we're actually going to get paid?
Something that both he and Satoshi
are working on in slightly different ways
is like, how do you reduce credit risk?
So you have like real-time settlement of payments,
which is something-
When you say Satoshi, the audience might-
Oh, sorry, for Satoshi Energy, satoshienergy.com.
Are you talking about the risk
between the people constructing the generator
and the people who would be consuming it?
And mostly for the underwriter.
And I'm saying-
Isn't it the case that if you know that you're going to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in building the data center, you may not choose to work with a third party?
That's a great question.
Is it a very different skill set?
I know that it's a different skill set building software versus building a data center.
Yeah, it's definitely a different skill set.
But they've all adopted the expertise internally to be able to build the data centers.
It's a good question and something that I would love to get those folks to have a better understanding.
My sense is that's probably changing in real time.
historically it is a very different skill set to be able to for example navigate the interconnection
process build the farms like that's like that's what a company like satoshi does and they're like
they're effectively brokers between data centers and um it used to be um more miners but now ai as
well and the energy asset owner and the energy asset owner typically i mean to be clear like
we're talking about scales of like many many billions of dollars to build this kind of stuff
so you generally have some major underwriter at the table and like yes the googles and facebook's
could underwrite that,
but that's not been their core business.
It's very different in terms of the returns profiles
they're going to get from something else.
But to your point, that could be changing.
It probably is changing.
It feels to me like it would be changing.
So shouldn't we definitely try to get folks
from Google, Microsoft, Facebook?
Yes.
I've got the energy side pretty covered.
I don't have that yet, and that should be our time.
Because I have a big strategic question about that.
Let's get to work on that.
That sounds like an interesting one.
To me, it feels rational that that would change
because it's not like a money issue.
And they're already committing.
And if they're going to be like,
you know, it's almost like any strategic relationship.
Like if you have a single customer,
you're in trouble.
If you have thousands of customers,
then any one of them could abandon.
Whereas if you are the single customer,
you should just also,
you can arrange project financing.
I'll give you one data point on what's happening.
Google is being,
and again, a lot of this is kind of like,
Google is like, you know,
Google is lasagna right now.
Silent like a G?
Silent like a G.
In lasagna?
Yeah, like, you know, Facebook's out here.
I'd say Google is like a G.
A G in all sense.
Facebook's out here making a lot of noise.
Elon's making a lot of noise.
By the way, Elon's going to own it all.
I mean, again, if I had to bet the farm
on who's going to build the terawatt of off-grid,
it's going to be Elon.
But, like, we should all still try
and, like, get more people involved.
But, like, it's going to be Elon.
And Google's the only other in my group that could try.
And, like, they're more, as I've gone on the rabbit hole,
they're more impressive than I realized,
but I still wouldn't pay Elon.
So what they're doing from what I can tell is they're taking major positions in a lot of these companies right now on the development and data center side.
So two major positions they've taken in the last several months.
The big one, which is very interesting to me, is Intersect Power.
Intersect raised, I think it was like $800 million round, like very large round.
And they're still a private company, but they basically are a solar developer.
Solar and storage.
That's basically what they do.
They do some net gas and you're going to hook up some net gas.
but they raised a major strategic ground
from Google and from TPG
and their climate fund.
And yeah, so like they,
I mean, it's not Google,
but like, I mean,
they effectively are,
it's a quiet acquisition, I'd say.
I have a question.
Would love to discuss your views,
your most recent views
on Bitcoin's role on all of this.
And I'll bring up a couple of examples.
Please.
Recently, we talked in this show,
I don't know, maybe a few months ago,
but like it was this year we talked about
how like these data center companies,
they either emerged to satisfy AI
or they've transitioned from Bitcoin to AI.
But that Bitcoin still plays a role,
at minimum plays a role to be like a scout,
like scouting new physical locations
and being the first user to build out.
And then stage two would be to advance it
so that AI can be used there.
So I assume that hasn't, you know,
So that's one way that Bitcoin is related.
But what about like four years ago, over four years ago, you wrote the paper in conjunction with Square and us, which talked about a different application, which was just making it more economical to finance new energy projects.
Yes.
But with a combination of Bitcoin mining, batteries, and solar.
Yep.
And like an oversupply of solar so that you can address the duck curve.
have your views so number one if your views changed on that do you still see bitcoin playing
that role um and then two are there any other ways you see bitcoin being part of this yes for sure
and i should address one thing before i jump into those questions which i think is important just to
to sort of tie the knot on this for the audience so a big part of my thesis in this essay is
if the grid is so sclerotic and so fucked that we literally even if we slashed regulation which i
I think, yes, that's part of it.
But it's not just regulation.
It's also just like the physical infrastructure is so bad and so dated.
I think the like, I forgot, like one of the like civic engineer groups gave us a D plus
infrastructure rating.
There's also like, even if you wanted to build a lot more transmission distribution, good
luck getting transformers.
There are no transformers.
So there's all of these problems where even if you wanted to slash all regulation, go
full Texas and Texas is doing that.
It's extremely difficult to imagine a world where that could happen in the next five years.
And one of my theses, by the way, is that the next five years matters a lot.
And so there's also this position in Silicon Valley, which is very popular.
And that position is, let's do nuclear.
Not anti-nuclear.
It's cool.
There's no way nuclear is going to rock and roll in the next five years.
I'm also the view that, I guess this is a little controversial.
I don't mean this in a bad way, but it's kind of true, which is like, we either figure this
out in the next five years or start learning Mandarin.
That's my take.
I knew you were going to say that.
That's a good line.
But it conveys, it's kind of a joke, but it conveys a lot of information.
And I'm not anti-China either.
Like, good on them.
They've been so smart and so ahead of the curve.
But it's just kind of like shocking to see the U.S. be so far behind.
Is it Leo? Leonardo?
Leopold? Leopold.
Sorry, Leopold.
DiCaprio?
Yeah.
Leopold DiCaprio.
Leopold.
He touches on the geopolitical ramifications.
Very well.
Right at the beginning of that podcast.
Yeah.
And I would argue, I mean, again, energy.
So one of my core theses on Bitcoin, Bitcoin is energy back to money.
if you think about it, there really is only one currency in the known universe and it's always
jewels. That's it. It's only jewels. Everything we've ever used as money is a proxy in the energy
full stop. Gold, oil, whatever you want to say, it's always jewels. And so, yeah. And what do
countries fight over? Power. And what is power? Application of jewels. So you think about this
and anyways, there's a lot of interesting rabbit holes. I'm not anti-China, but I do think that
it would be radically irresponsible for us to let them just run away with the IRAs.
Because they're, by the way, I mean, you can see in my essay, you can see all over Twitter,
if you want, just look at Elon's Twitter feed, the amount of solar that China is deploying right now,
like over the next three years, the amount of solar they're set to deploy is going to dwarf
our entire generation capacity in the United States combined, the entire grid, all of it.
And it's just, it's literally, it's a vertical line. And that's because they understand what's
going on. And so, so, you know, again, nuclear, yeah, they're building some nuclear, but like,
You just can't compete with the cost curves.
And so, by the way, I should also clarify,
solar plus storage is the missing piece
because if you just do solar, yes, I get it.
Sun only shines half the day, got it.
But if you then combine that with cheap enough batteries,
all of a sudden you can have many days off-grid.
And by the way, I mean,
if you have other cheap sources of electricity,
I'm not into that.
If you have cheap geothermal, great.
If you do, for whatever reason,
have nuclear that's already working, great.
There's going to be many uses,
cases for NatGas as well.
And I actually have some creative ways
you can do sort of in Casey's style,
create synthetic net gas from solar
and just store it there on site
so you don't even need to use the pipelines.
So anyways, we can go deeper on that
if you guys have questions on that.
Bitcoin.
Yeah, we'll get into Bitcoin.
I have one thing,
and I think I mentioned it to you before
a few weeks ago,
but I was hanging out with a group
of kind of sci-fi thinkers,
and one guy was saying...
That sounds spicy.
One guy was suggesting that
it may be credible to...
be collecting solar from outer space
and beaming it back in some sort of microwave rectangular shape.
I don't know.
Do you know anything about this?
Is this credible?
That I don't have a strong opinion.
I've seen strong arguments either way.
In the long run, yes.
But let's get to that later
because I think that's its own really interesting rabbit hole.
So in order to get to Bitcoin,
the last piece of my thesis that's important is
one of my goals or one of my kind of like ideas for the summit is,
okay, if the old grid is so broken, leave it, defect, and build a new grid in the style of
Buckminster Fuller, you know, instead of trying to change things that are broken, just build
something new that makes the old obsolete. Like, like why waste all of our time, like with all
these frustrating, just impossibly opaque rules and all this stuff, like, let's just go build new.
And so there's obviously many impediments to doing that. But my sort of vision for this is,
can we build eventually a terawatt scale, many of them,
grid, off-grid, solar plus storage,
maybe you need some net gas and there's ways to do that, fine,
sites where you don't need the interconnection.
I would love to get the interconnection.
And eventually my view is we connect all of these sites together
and eventually subsume the old grid
and the old grid joins us in this new free market.
Now, to your question on Bitcoin, in order for that-
That's how media has worked, by the way, right, with the internet.
That's how everything works.
I don't think this is a controversial opinion at all.
It's like, that's how payment networks were.
What's the old story of like, you know,
we started doing the internet over phone lines,
phone lines, right?
Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
Yep, yep, yep.
And then we got to whatever we're using now.
And anyways, fiber.
But meaning like when, say like when Twitter launched day one,
it was like you're talking about sandwiches
that you're eating for lunch.
The New York Times does not want to be there.
Right.
But it's like a new way to broadcast communicate.
Yeah.
And then over time, the New York Times says, actually, we better join Twitter and have an account.
So it's kind of that same pattern seems to play out again and again.
And the internet did it to media, but you're talking about how it probably gets done in the grid and energy.
Yeah.
So to your questions, I'll take them one by one.
Has my views changed on what's going to be the, I forgot what you call it, but like the species, the lichen?
well the the paper that we wrote four and a half years ago do you still hold that view yeah i do
but i i think one thing i've changed my mind on one thing i've changed my mind on is i don't think
at least in the short run bitcoin is going to be the biggest early adopting species um thank you
i think it's going to be i think bitcoin will play a role in this um no maybe i mean to create a the
most economical way to build out a new energy system, is your current thesis solar plus
battery or solar plus battery plus Bitcoin?
Because the paper four and a half years ago was all three.
I think it is short, short term.
I think this is changing still in real time.
I don't think we're still at the point where solar plus Bitcoin plus battery fully pencils
with the data center yet.
But I do know one company where the founder will be speaking.
uh it's not stushy it's another one um probably giving way too much information shit uh anyways
i'm not gonna say but it's one of these two i know exactly uh but tells me that that's gonna
happen the next year what's gonna happen that they're gonna there will be examples of totally
off-grid solar plus storage plus completely depreciated s19 style like old asic miners and
And that gets into a very interesting question because in order for that to work, you know, you basically, you either have to be okay running it less than 24-7 if you have the new generation miners because those are expensive, or you have to buy ones where the CapEx is effectively zero or super low because you've already depreciated them.
So I think that's going to happen first.
I do expect that to start happening in the next year or two.
He might be a little overly bullish, maybe not.
but I think that one thing I changed my view on is
in the early days I thought Bitcoin would be
that's the thing we go and we build new societies
and civilizations around Bitcoin mining, maybe
but I do feel much more confident
that that first lichen species or whatever you want to call it
is going to be at data centers
so my view now is it's going to be
these multi-gigawatt data centers
as your first off-taker
and then over time it's going to grow out
And I actually think, you know, Bology's idea of the network state, maybe this is how the network
state actually evolves, is like you build a giant ass data center in Abilene, okay? Now you have all
this electricity. And because if you're doing another advantage of doing solar and storage is
it's modular. If you do nuclear, you design it for years and that's, you know, it's a one gigawatt
plant, that's what you get. Solar, you can just keep expanding, keep expanding. Solar and storage
as you go from a gigawatt to 10 gigawatts to 100 gigawatts to a terawatt. And I think that basically
we're going to see like new cities pop up around these data centers and bitcoin will definitely
eventually be part of that and as it keeps getting cheaper and cheaper the old the miners and you
know the price of bitcoin keeps going up it'll probably play more of a role where i see bitcoin
playing a massive role in this vision are you all right make sure i got that out yes please
thank you thank you um yeah that's good thank you is um i think it's going to be the bitcoin network
more and more. I think the miners are certainly going to play a role, but I think that if you
listen to this kind of crazy vision I'm talking about, if we build completely new grids, you need
a way to do effectively super state settlement, supra state settlement, and effectively the way to
meter electricity in real time. And so increasingly, I am extremely, extremely,
extremely, extremely bullish on this future where you're in real time doing electrons for Bitcoin.
And you can literally just meter that in real time. You know, so much of the failures of our grid,
it's the same. Why do we have failures in banking? Why do we have failures in universities? Why do
we have failures in home building? Why do we have failures in healthcare? Once you have a monopoly,
innovation stops. You can't use the holy nature of prices, which is to bring in all these disparate
pieces of information into one piece of information. Prices are magic. And this is why I effectively
think Hayek was right. And by the way, in order to do this, you're going to need a sly roundabout
way to build a new grid, just like you did to take money away from the monopoly there.
And it's going to be much harder because we have to deal with atoms, not just bits. But
what's missing is, you know, not only the infrastructure, but once you have new infrastructure
and you can actually kind of build new rules. And again, I don't think the people like managing
these are like evil or anything. I think it's just like, they have rules from like 1910.
And like, turns out now we have the internet. Turns out now solar is really cheap. Turns out
you have batteries now, which can arb in real time and batteries, you know, I'm increasingly
thinking of as the high frequency traders of this whole world. So batteries I'm more and more and
more and more and more bullish on. I would love to like back more battery companies that are
building battery fleets, that's very viable. We should get battery people at the Type 1 Summit
as well. Yeah, we should 100% get the best battery people. Michael Dell's kid is doing something
fascinating. Fascinating. Genius, genius. He's basically doing what we used to do for solar
when I was in ResiSolar, where we would finance the solar panels for you. You pay nothing up front
or reduced up front, and then we take a cut of the savings. He's doing that for batteries and
oversizing batteries in texas which allows them to basically build a giant sort of a virtual
power plant more like a virtual battery where they can then interact with texas's best free
market but even texas market is not nearly as good as it could be if you had real pricing for everyone and so anyways all that what the name of that company by the way remember i don remember Okay look it up Yeah I super long We should definitely get them there Super long
I think Valor and Founders Fund
and some others,
I guess that's going to be a good one.
Cool.
Anyways,
so what I see Bitcoin doing
is enabling real-time markets.
And I actually even see a world
for the Nostra community,
like,
you know,
there's so many problems,
by the way,
there's all these national security risks
with the grid,
like that's going to get hacked.
That's going to be crazy
even when grids start getting hacked.
Maybe the Spain thing already was.
And so with Nostra now,
you could do something,
and I'm not saying it's definitely gonna be Nostra,
but Ben from EllenBits has been doing all this really cool,
he's always doing the hardware tinkering,
and he's already getting this idea
of you could have every device have a Nostra identity.
And that's really cool,
because now you can imagine every load asset,
every generation asset, every storage asset
has a private key,
and that's its identity,
and it can then send messages back and forth to each other.
And you can really, with Bitcoin,
Lightning, whatever, ends up working with Lightning.
And Nostra, the dream is to build a free market for electricity
and internet of electricity.
That's where I think Bitcoin's going to play the best role.
Cool.
By the way, I already got questions from people interested in Type 1 Summit.
Yeah.
And for those that aren't able to come,
is anything going to be recorded?
or do you think there'll be like a,
some kind of published summary of what we discuss?
Good question.
I don't want to commit to that now
because I haven't thought about it.
And so what I will say is the goal at this point,
and, you know, obviously this is a collaborative effort,
so we should all figure this out together.
I don't know.
But I would say we should aim for doing,
we're going to have some kind of more,
you know, discussion,
panel-y type things in the morning
and probably live stream that or at least record it.
and then the afternoon and evening, totally Chatham House.
So if it's Chatham House, I mean, yeah,
we'll have to see how much we want to summarize or not.
Yeah, even in Chatham House,
we could publish a report and just not-
Not attribute it, yeah.
Okay.
And do you have a sense,
let's say we're sitting here the day after Type 1 Summit,
there's been tons of new ideas shared,
a lot of new connections made and relationships.
Is there sort of like a go-forward path?
Would there be a Type 1 Summit too,
or maybe a company or two that gets started from that?
Or like, do you have sort of a goal?
I have mind fund four.
Steve knows what it is.
Is that what it is?
Absolutely.
Oh, okay.
I mean, well, if we do a type two summit,
we'll have had to reach type one.
I'm in type one summit, part two.
I can't, I can't.
Yeah, I mean, I'm going into this with a very open mind.
Obviously, you know, one of my goals is
I want to fund some of the projects that come out of this.
And I've already, honestly, even just yesterday, we've already had, I think, four or five, like
I would consider, I don't know if they're elite level entrepreneurs yet, but at least
elite level thinkers, people I've been like following pretty obsessively, reach out.
I think we'll get a bunch of them to come here.
And I don't know which ones are going to be like, maybe some of them will team up.
Maybe some of them will, you know, I don't know.
So yeah, I would love to fund some of these.
And I would also love to help, you know, I have relatively small funds, so it'd be great
to get some of the bigger funds and the infrastructure fund guys here as well.
We're hoping to get, we'd love to get folks from places like TPG and Blue Owl and all these.
And like, you know, it'd be cool if like maybe we help, you know, at the early stages and they can actually make this like a reality with like kinds of capital that, you know, it's like tens of billions of dollars.
But yeah, I don't know.
I'm very open-minded and like who knows what's going to come out of it.
I like that.
Just like explore the possibilities and see what kind of magic.
And for those listening interested, what's the URL for the website type?
So type1summit.org, and one is a numeral.
So type number one, type1summit.org.
Do you want to read my essay, which talks more about it?
I think it's linked on there, but hivemind.vc slash grid.
And people can apply to participate?
Yes, so we should talk about that.
I mean, I would love to have as many people as possible.
I do think, honestly, just from feedback yesterday,
I think this is going to like oversubscribe super, super fast.
so um yeah i mean definitely apply if you're interested i mean um we're gonna have super
limited space because we want to keep this really tight and you know encourage as much conversation
the chatham house but we need to figure that out i would love to to get more people involved um but
um yeah like i don't know to tell us what you want to contribute what you hope to get out of it those
are some of the questions uh if you have a contrarian take on the future of electricity
we're interested in hearing that and yeah i don't know i guess we'll probably work as a group to
figure out who comes.
We also talked about different types of people
we'd love to have here
to make it a richer experience.
So we'll get to work on our own networks,
but if people listening know folks
at the big tech companies
that work on infrastructure
or energy data centers,
that would be...
Super helpful.
Helpful, and who else did we name?
The big project finance shops,
the people that are financing the big,
you know, TPGs, Blue Owls of the world.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Okay.
Great.
Cool.
One thing we maybe should have mentioned at the beginning,
we didn't talk about our sign.
Oh, yeah.
That was about the sign.
Speaking of electricity.
And construction.
Well, I'm not the expert on the sign.
There's a new sign.
People can see that.
It's partially working.
So it makes you look kind of like a Christ figure.
There's a...
Sort of have a halo around you.
So it's super cool neon sign.
This is the new Satoshi.
Custom design, right?
It's dope.
I don't know if it's...
Yeah.
Down here, that's where you can turn it on.
There's two boxes.
You notice the middle PB is not lit up.
We discovered a mosquito that got fried.
A literal bug.
Yes.
And it apparently caused it to stop working.
So we have to debug our bug problem.
Which, by the way, I learned recently that's the reason we say debug in computers, too.
The old days when we had the tape recorder stuff.
It was like a moth, I think, right?
I think the original bug was a moth.
It made its way in.
Anyway, so we're proud of our sign, but it's only partially working.
Hopefully we get it in working order by next week.
It's pretty fucking sick.
Shout out to Alex, who I guess thought of this.
Like, this is cool.
And I like that we got real neon.
It also took like 10 hours to install.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was crazy.
It was no joke.
But it looks very nice.
Yeah.
There's like paint involved.
I mean, there's like actual neon gas.
So Max, you also wanted to talk about the flipping.
Oh, yeah.
A flippening.
Yes.
A new type of flippening.
A new flippening.
Tell us about it.
Oh, well, I mean, my thinking about this came from a couple of different places.
You know, I briefly scrolled through a couple of the talks from the last Bitcoin conference.
And, you know, I briefly scrolled through Bology.
I think Bology has a lot of good ideas.
Scriptiveness aside, I think he has a lot of good ideas.
And one of them, I hadn't thought of this yet.
I guess I have kind of informally thought of this.
and we've sort of mentioned this in the show,
but it just really crystallized it for me,
was based on some, I guess,
numbering some data that they crunched at Coinbase,
his guess was that, you know,
the total number of billionaires in the world,
which I think he shares like 3,000,
something like that, that we know of,
is, you know, basically once Bitcoin,
somewhere between $100,000 a coin
and a million dollars a coin,
we have a flippening where the majority
of the world's billionaires are Bitcoiners.
And that's very interesting for a number of reasons.
one of the reasons it's very interesting to me
in relationship to the type 1 summit
in relationship to a prior PBJ episode
where we discussed building an open source foundational model
and also inspired last night
as so many things are for me
in a great spontaneous sauna conversation
is I was talking for someone working at one of these HCI companies
the human computer interface
basically like Neuralink
like putting a chip in your brain
and increasingly coming away from that conversation
I was one more excited about learning about, you know, this, uh, the singularity, uh, the
fusion or whatever you want to call it.
But I left just like terrified.
I was already scared, but now I'm like, oh man, like as much as I love the compute and
the solar and money, like, that's all great.
And we need to fix that first.
Like there's so many, again, like if I could go back to what I was saying earlier, so many
incentive structures in our world that are just broken and we have the tools with Bitcoin
with NOS for all this stuff to like fix it in a way that you don't have a corporation
or government.
And I just think that corporations and nations are just outdated structures.
Like, they're not bad.
They're not evil.
It's just they had their own in the 20th century, and now it's time for internet native stuff.
And hearing him say all this, I was like, man, there is – and I get the people that
they and Neuralink and others are putting chips for now are people that are paralyzed.
And yeah, if you're paralyzed, totally makes – the risk tradeoff makes it totally worth
it.
But like, would you guys put a random chip, even from someone like Elon in your head?
I wouldn't.
No way.
Absolutely no fucking way on this.
Like, no fucking way.
and but at the other hand it's kind of like ai future generations might yeah say yes easily well
maybe but but but here's the thing it's not that i i want to be clear it's not that i wouldn't put
a chip in my brain it's that i wouldn't put a chip in my brain closed source from a company
or government that i can't audit and know what the hell is going on yep and so yeah the more i was
talking about this the more i was like oh man like it's like ai when we talked about the open
source stuff it's like i don't want to be left behind you know i want to have the superpowers
that come with being transhuman
or whatever you want to call it.
But like, I'm just not,
I just never would put a company in my head,
no matter who the company is.
Have you seen the Black Mirror episode about this?
No.
There's a great Black Mirror episode
that walks through this.
I'll fail to get the exact details right,
but there's some sort of,
I think there was some sort of injury
that this woman had
and there was one way to save her life.
She was on the operating room about to die
and they asked her husband,
well, hey, we have this new startup
that claims they can solve this thing.
Should we try?
And she was basically on her deathbed.
And he said, yeah, sure, go for it.
And then they did it.
And then they walked through and they're like,
oh, we have an expansion pack available.
Would you like to buy that?
Like, well, no, I'd rather not.
And then she sort of has Tourette's or something weird.
And then like, actually, you can buy the expansion pack
and that'll fix it.
And so you see this little boiling the frog,
and then it gets to be the point
where she's like totally dependent on this corporation.
and there's no real alternative option.
And I think it's, you know, like a lot of Black Mirror,
it's like both near and familiar and very likely in a sense
unless you take explicit choices to opt out or to shape
or change the incentives for kind of how it works.
It's a worthwhile view if you're thinking about getting a chip implanted.
I'm not thinking about getting a chip implanted.
Not now.
Maybe if there's an open source one.
You were before.
I don't like kings and masters
and I don't like people controlling my thoughts.
Chips in your brain.
Not for me.
Not for you.
Well, anyways, so I agree with you.
The TLDR is I want an open source version.
I'm open to exploring this in the future
after they've had decades of figuring this out or whatever.
But I would only consider if it was open source.
And so I asked this guy, I'm like,
how much money would you need?
I was like, well, you guys open source?
He's like, I'm just a software engineer.
I don't know.
He's like, sounds cool, but they need to make money.
and so maybe Elon will do it again
with Elon you're rolling the dice like
he could just go totally like he did with Tesla
patents and open source reports but again you never want
to just like depend I mean who knows
right and Elon may not be here in the future
right so he's like here's a self-driving
car you can drive yourself like
that's not what I had in mind
DK is more skeptical but
regardless my broader point is you don't want to be
dependent on any centralized entity
to put a chip in your brain all stop
but you also don't want to be left behind because then you're gonna be like
like an aborigine when everyone else is off like you know going to mars and stuff so which is not
necessarily bad and maybe i don't mind that actually yeah actually maybe maybe that's the
trade-offs i think i'll take that one given the current traps but again we could imagine a better
world and so i was asking well how much money do you think roughly if you had to guess what it take
to develop a product that you could bring to market because i don't know 50 to 100 million
dollars so i was like i mean it sounds like a lot but it's not that much in the grand scheme of
things and then that's when i started thinking i was like you know what maybe the biggest legacy
of Bitcoin really is going to be
that some of these people get
that still have cypherpunk values,
that still care about human freedom,
that still want the light of consciousness
to shine on,
that are not completely jaded and nihilistic.
Maybe the biggest legacy of Bitcoin
is they're just going to fund
all of these projects,
maybe for profit,
maybe as kind of like cathedral style,
just like giving back to humanity.
And yeah, I thought about it.
The open source model,
that's important,
but this is even more important.
And I was thinking,
could I back this out of high minds?
I'm probably too early for that right now.
and you did way more capital than we have.
But could a bunch of Bitcoin billionaires
who care about human freedom come up?
Okay, we're going to start working way ahead of time
on the open source Neuralink.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a good...
I mean, we're working out of a studio right now
courtesy of two wealthy Bitcoin holders.
Yeah, thanks, guys.
Thank you.
Thank you, Wensis, and thank you, Mark.
All the procedure of Bitcoin is funded by them.
Or not all now, because we do have 25 paying members,
which helps defray the cost.
But still, the majority of the costs are funded by them.
So that's just like a small example of what can come.
And it does seem like I did, I ran the,
I didn't watch Balashie's talk on this,
but I just did my own quick math.
Looks like 3,000 billionaires.
So to flip that, there needs to be 3,000.
I think a million dollar Bitcoin gets us there.
I don't know about $100,000, but.
And as it gets there, does that mean there's $3,000 or 3,000 people who have about a billion dollars worth of purchasing power?
Yes.
So if we assume none of the current billionaires have Bitcoin, then it would flip.
It would flip earlier, sooner if some of them are, obviously some of them already have Bitcoin.
And to be clear, we're not saying all 3,000, 1,500 to get 51%.
1%.
Presumably as Bitcoin is growing to be
worth a million
dollars per Bitcoin,
even if the existing
billionaires in US dollar terms don't
hold any Bitcoin, presumably
they're starting to buy some during that
process, but they also continue to hold
USD assets.
In the extreme case,
none of the existing 3,000
ever have Bitcoin.
We would need 3,000
Bitcoin billionaires to flip
and what is the folding?
I'm saying you only need half now
to be 51%.
No, because if you have 1,500,
then you only have a third
of the billionaires.
I think so there's 3,000.
There are 3,000 today.
Assume they just sit statically.
Oh, got it, got it.
Meaning that 3,000
people should be added.
Depends on how fast we hyperinflate.
Anyway, to me, it's inevitable.
Bitcoin is going to get to a million dollars.
there will be a flip.
Yeah.
I kind of like the flip.
The flip?
The flip.
Team flip.
And when do you, I mean, what do you think the,
like, I think there's like,
what do existing billionaires do with that wealth?
And then what would Bitcoin billionaires,
would it look very similar?
Would it look pretty different in some ways?
Like you mentioned,
funding Neuralink or an open source model.
Well, one concern I'd have,
just looking at the amount of donations now
from wealthy Bitcoiners,
I think it's quite poor.
It's just like a few.
It's a few, right?
They're doing a lot of lifting.
Wentz has done a lot over time,
and Mark more recently.
John Pfeffer has done a lot.
Yeah, shout out to John.
Michael Saylor's funded certain things too.
But it's a short list.
So it's a small percentage of...
Jack is funding like half of everything.
Yeah, it's a small percentage of Bitcoin whales
and a small percentage of, quote, available funds.
Like, you know, that gets into a philosophical discussion.
But so I don't know how much that will change.
And then for those that do donate,
yeah, that gets to your question of like,
do they fund different initiatives
than have been done historically
because maybe it skews libertarians,
skews cyberpunk.
Maybe skews open source.
Skews more digital.
So that seems very plausible.
And then do they structure it differently
than historically,
like for-profit versus non-profit
or something new.
dows or something i don't know i wonder if some of the you know limitation in choice is sort of
once you understand bitcoin and you understand kind of it's going up forever it's harder to say
look i'm gonna donate to a place that may not have that same belief and they might sell it to
try to fund operations and it might get a little bit off the rails versus if i wait 10 years and
then i do it i can actually you know make a bigger impact do more and i don't have the risk of people
kind of like selling early to convert to some project which may not quite so i wonder if people
become like more generous as that price rises in a sense well you can also just lock it up
you can lock it up and then they'd be forced to um take out bitcoin back loans right but retain
their Bitcoin. Or you could, could you even
do like HTLCs to time lock it
to a future point? Or like
dole it out over, like you almost set a
budget and dole it out?
I wouldn't use HTLCs, but yes.
Okay, sorry.
Watch out.
DK's getting into the Bitcoin technical.
But yeah, so I think, you know,
interesting structures like that, like
programmable, like let's use programmable money.
Yeah.
Yep, so that's like
under-discussed.
I'm glad you brought that up.
And it's also because you can imagine
the structure's changing.
Maybe the reality is
some of these things are effectively public goods.
And frankly, this is what the government should be doing.
One day we'll have an effective government again
and they'll be doing that.
But maybe you basically need generous donors
that skew open source, skew ProFreedom
to get it started.
But you could also be a hybrid structure
where it's like, okay,
but then it becomes a company, right?
Because one of my theses is that,
like imagine,
and I would love to fund this out of HighMind,
it's probably way too early,
but imagine you had an open source competitor
and the human brain interface,
there's a lot of people that are going to be like,
yeah, I'll do it,
but I'm not using the proprietary one.
And particularly people that tend to have money
or skew wealth will understand why this is so important.
So it's not like this is pure charity.
You might need charity to kickstart things,
but then I think you could build a great business too.
Yeah.
Food for thought.
You mentioned earlier gold,
and this discussion reminds me.
Did I?
Just briefly.
It was a passing company.
didn't he say something?
It's an awkward segue.
Yeah, it's a super awkward segue.
Sorry, it was bland in my mind.
It was like an offhanded comment,
I think, earlier.
We can check the transcript.
It's in there.
I think Steve was mentioning
gold, the ancient civilizations
visited by aliens.
Maybe that's what I was, yeah.
I think my head has just been
visited by aliens.
That's what I heard on ancient history.
It's a ship and his head is malfunctioning.
I would never get a chance to do it.
I was talking to a friend yesterday who's a Bitcoiner, and he was trying to convince me of the gold hypothesis and thesis.
And I've never been a gold person.
I think I only came to understand gold after I came to understand Bitcoin.
I think hearing the gold narrative initially was a turnoff.
The e-gold narrative was a turnoff for me.
I think I understand them both a lot better now.
but I feel like gold has these problems with it.
We have custodying it and quantity is particularly challenging
and transferring it and stuff, yeah.
But this friend of mine was mentioning that it may be that
a lot of what we talk about is trying to help people understand
Bitcoin and the philosophy and what it's all about
and why it's not purely a technology
and that it's different than all the rest of these kind of crypto things.
and you know i thought maybe like there's a different framing that would help people kind
of on board which is if people understood gold better and then understood the bugs but i don't
know like i don't feel like there's a lot of this at least in the last let's say decade there hasn't
been a lot of discourse about gold but i think in recent years there is i think i think in the last
couple years has been one of the better performing assets i don't i don't track it too closely it has
outperformed Bitcoin the past four years.
Has it?
The past four years has outperformed Bitcoin.
We talked about this a month ago.
And it's even outperforming it more now
because it's all time high.
Right.
But it easy for I think it easy for like sovereigns to buy gold It probably not easy for sovereigns to buy Bitcoin Both from like logistically and I think there a lot of
gold getting repatriated these days
where, you know, which is kind of like
maybe portends war and stuff like that.
But by the way,
sorry, just really quick question on that. Is there, are there any
companies that specialize in just helping
sovereigns acquire, acquire
and kind of see their Bitcoin?
I guess Coinbase could do it. Other companies could be like,
is there anyone that's like, that's what they're focused on? That seems like
a great business.
I'm not aware.
I assume anybody who does,
I mean,
we should ask Alan Bays.
Yeah.
Like whether he's considered it
or if he knows of others.
Yeah.
If you're out there doing that,
it's a good idea.
Right.
From River.
Yeah.
But if you have this
as a great performing asset,
you can kind of predict
that all the sovereigns
are going to continue
to buy gold.
I mean,
you would think
they're going to buy Bitcoin someday.
Maybe some of them are,
but like maybe you don't have
as much IMF challenge.
Maybe just have like,
it's just like,
it's more standard in a sense.
It's easier for people
that understand, you know, you don't get fired for buying, you know, whatever, IBM or gold or
whatever. So I wonder if actually just coming to a deeper understanding of gold and it's like
exciting again, I guess I didn't realize the last four years it's outperformed Bitcoin,
but it's like exciting in a way. Does that draw in a bunch of attention that then gets people
excited about gold? And then you come to learn more about like the problems and challenges and
the opportunities with digital. Yeah. And we haven't talked about this on the show.
In my mind, to me, the whole digital gold narrative is like I've been told so many times because within Bitcoin circles, I do think it's like, I think it is the one of the best ways, if not the best way to like help people understand the potential value of Bitcoin in the future.
But that's if you believe in gold.
Yeah.
Then digital gold makes it.
So the other point I was going to make is I think, I forget if you said this pre-show or not, maybe I'm making it up, but.
It's the chip.
Yeah.
Is this a good story to narrative for Silicon Valley big tech people?
And I think no, unless it's maybe what you just said here,
which is first educate big tech on why gold and then why Bitcoin.
Because my experience with tech people is that they don't understand gold.
And my own personal story, like I initially did buy, like a long time ago, I bought some gold because I was at the 101 level of investing.
And like I found a bunch of sites and they're like, yeah, you should have a portion in gold.
I'm like, all right, I'll just follow that advice.
And then the next step was, well, the Warren Buffett thesis, which is like gold's stupid.
It's a nonproductive asset.
There's no yield.
It doesn't earn anything.
It's stupid.
and I'm like, that's true.
You pay people to dig it up
and then you pay people to put it under.
I'm like, it is nonproductive.
It's stupid.
So then I sold all my gold
and I actually wrote up
like a six page
like
memo on like
why it's so stupid
to invest in gold.
For who?
I shared it with a friend.
I think I shared it with you.
Steve does these like
this private writing.
I've never gotten a memo.
I would like to read
this private Steve.
Before I met you.
I'm happy to show you.
Actually, I'd be curious.
It's kind of funny now.
We should live read it.
And then similar to DK's path,
then I got into Bitcoin
and then I understood gold.
So I actually think
the average tech person,
they are not invested in gold.
They don't get gold.
They sort of have the Warren Buffett view on it.
So I think selling them on Bitcoin through that lens out of the gate is a non-starter.
So instead, yeah, and maybe what you're hoping to do, like we can explain why we now think gold has had value for thousands of years and why it still like is valuable today.
That it's not just a bunch of, you know, stupid investors or people holding it.
And then what are the characteristics of it that make it quite unique?
and then be like, oh, Bitcoin actually has
almost all of those characteristics and even more.
So are you winning?
Is that what you were hoping to walk through?
I mean, gold pull us.
Kind of, yeah.
I mean, and I wouldn't say,
I don't claim to be a gold expert.
Gold bug.
DK is the gold bug on the show.
I had a chat with a friend yesterday.
Do you feel it was Ron Paul?
Actually, to be honest, I don't own any gold.
Like zero.
So I'm not saying I'm bullish on gold.
I just don't really,
I don't have much of an opinion about it, but this friend was pointing out to me that there's a lot of people who are paying a lot more attention to it today and are getting excited about gold because of the nation states are getting excited and they're repatriating it.
And it's outperformed Bitcoin, I guess.
I didn't realize it was, he mentioned the last two years, but you're mentioning the last four years.
But I think there's, I mean, you have to cherry pick the timeframe.
Yeah.
When Bitcoin was 60K in 2021, then that's four years.
But people who are not thinking about Bitcoin are thinking about gold and they're just watching. His example was the last two years. It's been this fantastic run, I guess. And so he's like, you know, why wouldn't you talk about that story? Because like it's obviously exciting to people when numbers go up. Right.
And instead of explaining Bitcoin, is there an opportunity to get people who are neither educated about Bitcoin nor gold to kind of use gold as an on-ramp to understand effectively the simple way I think of it now, which I've kind of always believed and had concerns with is like, if you believe that your government is here to serve you, then you don't need gold.
But if you believe there's anybody in power who may have misaligned interests, then gold is your way to protect yourself from the misalignment.
Yeah.
Well, go deeper.
Imagine, I mean, I think this is a great question.
You know, hey, I work at Google.
I do tech stuff all day.
The rock people are dumb.
Why are they not dumb?
Well, I think I don't look at backward performance, but I think a lot of people are attracted to like this thing has gone up a lot.
Why has it gone up?
Right.
You work at Google. Maybe you want to hold, maybe you want to have inflation protection. You want to be hedged against inflation. I think people who are successful in the financial ecosystem and the monetary ecosystem still sometimes hear about the problems with inflation and want to protect against it. And obviously holding Google stock is a fine way to protect against inflation and get AI upside. Gold is more.
But what is inflation? That's the greedy corporations, right?
I'll give my
so here's my current view on
investing I mean we can talk about
the properties
of gold which make it a unique
asset we can do that but also like
I'll start with my own
why to invest
in gold I think for
your average tech person
you shouldn't put like a quarter
of your portfolio in gold
you're actually basically
fine if you own no gold
you're not like a complete idiot
and missing the boat on something.
I think buying
1% or even 50 basis points
of your net worth in gold
and actually self-custodied it
That sounds scary.
Well, I think that's the move.
The rationale behind that,
it's like insurance
against the world turning upside down.
And if shit hits the fan
and like the like fiat currencies die and the internet goes down or like bitcoin for whatever
reason bitcoin um hasn't completely dominated gold at that event right then um you know holding
gold it it's like extremely high awareness humans around the the world to recognize it recognize it
and value it.
So if you're in need of money
to trade for weapons, food, shelter, whatever.
Now you sound like a Texans, David.
Well, I mean, we're talking about this extreme event, right?
Then you want to hold gold.
But you don't need to hold a huge portion of your net worth.
Because the thing is,
in such a horrible scenario,
you'll be very rich,
even if you only have a tiny percentage.
Because everything else will be kind of worthless, right?
I think we should also just explain that, like, I hear you on that, but like, I think one of the reasons people are very skeptical of gold is like, because whenever people start talking about gold, it's like, listen, when there's an apocalypse and you need gas for your motorcycle and you have the guns, even people that own the ETFs, which are probably, you know, false and paper traded or whatever, like that's still, there's a middle ground to it.
So the second, that's one, maybe I shouldn't have started with that.
Yes, that's an extreme scenario.
Another scenario is simply like you need places to put your money.
And in almost every other asset class, it is a productive asset.
So you need to then, you need to value it.
Like what are the cash flow, future cash flow projections for this stock or for the S&P 500 or whatever.
and if
here's your projection
and the market is valuing it higher than that
like okay
I no longer want to put my money in that
and same with like oh I could buy some land
and rent it out but if the
math doesn't work out where it makes sense
for the rent prices then I can't put my money
there either and then like CDs
and bonds and like if I can't put my money anywhere
because none of that makes
sense where do you put it well
you can put it in a store of value that's independent
of all that independent of the nation of all that stuff and so it's like gold has been a unique
asset class for that reason until the emergence of bitcoin and now bitcoin is that alternative
with similar properties yeah i would start maybe i agree with all that i would start uh i definitely
wouldn't leave with the extreme scenario because i do think that's why the gold bugs get like
painted is because they're like okay these are like the mad max people like the preppers and like
Yes, the proper case is there.
I sincerely hope that never happens.
I don't think it will.
I'm pretty optimistic.
It's always good to have insurance.
Always good to plan.
You never fucking know.
The world is a crazy place.
But generally, I'm very bullish on humanity.
We generally figure our stuff out.
We generally go through bad periods
and then come together
and generally stuff works out.
That's my belief.
Whether I'm right or wrong,
I'm sticking with it
because it makes life a lot better.
Now, one thing that I would start with
with the Silicon Valley crew,
I think it is smart,
and maybe someone should write a piece about this.
Maybe one of us.
Maybe someone listening to this.
It kind of just like, hey, you're, you know, a, whatever, a Google engineer, and you haven't
thought a lot about gold you're seeing going up.
Why?
The thing I would start with is actually the photo here in Presidio Bitcoin.
I had, I had my LP call this week.
I had a couple folks come in person.
And, you know, it's really funny.
Shout out to, shout out to Maurice and Ben, if you're listening.
But it's funny because Ben in particular, I can tell like they're, they're open-minded.
They thought the thesis was cool, but like, I'm literally watching them join, particularly
Ben.
and I mean this in a very good way,
join the cult in real time.
And so the more they read,
the more it started off
as we started having these conversations,
like, yeah, there's this Bitcoin thing.
It seems like Trump administration
is going to kind of line their own pockets.
Probably a good idea.
You start reading more
and you start reading more
and you're like, wait a second.
Where does money come from?
What is money?
All these questions
and I'm seeing them in real time.
Now he's going to come next week
to our design week.
I'm watching someone join the cult
in real time and it's awesome.
And one of the things
that really resonated with them
when they were here in person
was our Andy Warhol photo or painting
or whatever it is in the kitchen.
And it just shows a can of Campbell's soup
in the famous Andy Warhol style.
And it just shows the price over time.
And I don't know if those numbers are accurate.
Do we know?
Did someone actually check the math on that?
Yeah, well, assume they did for a minute.
It like the can of soup, it keeps going up over time.
It was like a nickel.
And it was like 50 cents, like all this stuff.
But then like the price jump in the last five years,
they show it twice, it's just like, what?
Like it was like, you know, a dollar
and it was $1.25 and $1.50 in like five years.
And you're like, wait a second, what's going on?
That to them was a very powerful thing.
They're like, yeah, like why is there so much inflation?
So let's start with something like that.
That's like a fact.
No one can dispute that's a fact.
You might say it's more than is reported
and it probably is, but that's a fact.
Then you say, well, why is there inflation?
And I think most people have never thought about this ever.
They've never thought about what money is.
And when they hear the popular talking points are inflation,
it's the greedy corporations.
I actually like Bernie, but it's the greedy corporations, you know?
Or it's, you know, it's the supply chain.
It's like all these ridiculous things.
But it's like, no, the reason there's inflation,
and sure, maybe short-term, some things, whatever.
But like, it's because we rent money out of thin air.
Like, I always tell people, it's like, listen,
if there's 10 Monopoly houses and you're playing Monopoly and you have $10, okay?
And then all of a sudden, you just go to the bank and grab $10
and throw that on the table.
still 10 houses now there's $20 price your house the wealth did not change there's 10 houses
same as before and after but now a house that used to cost $1 is $2 because you just threw $10
into the mix and it's literally if you try to sell it you get taxed on the game yeah it's literally a
pee and shell game and you're like well wait a second well why why is that why is that another
way i think about it maybe this will actually resonate with the uh the high tis crowd is like
Think of it as like height.
Okay.
You know, you're probably 5'10".
Is that right?
5'10 and a half.
With his carbon plates in.
With the carbon plates.
5'10 and a half.
If you came in tomorrow and I measured you again and you haven't changed.
You're 5'10 and a half.
That's what you've been probably your whole life.
maybe age 18 or something and i say you know what steve actually here's the thing uh today
you're actually 6'3 first you'd be like all right sweet that's cool all right and then you'd be like
but why am i 6'3 i didn't get any taller maybe like oh don't worry about that we just changed
the definition of a foot in an inch just a little bit right we just changed a little bit you'd be
like huh that's kind of weird all right whatever i never think about it and the next time i come
back a couple years later you're measuring him like steve you're seven eight like wait a second
six three was cool seven eight now we're getting into like giant i don't want to be seven eight
but all the 10 foot dudes are still getting all the ladies what's up yeah exactly what's going on
yeah the 10 foot dudes why are they 10 feet it's just like in the fullness of time and history the
way money works is going to be seen as so ridiculous because it is it's like what was the
It was the best we had.
Before we had the internet, it was the best we had.
Well, it's not the best we had.
The best we had was gold.
Sure.
Right?
And so that's its own thing.
And this gets back to your thesis of why did we have gold in the first place?
Because if you measure the cost of an apartment or a wool suit or all these things in gold,
it doesn't change.
It only changes in fiat terms.
It changes more than Bitcoin because there's more inflation with gold.
Anyways, but like one way that I've explained this to the engineer types that really resonates
is imagine, you know, if you're a scientist, there's a metric system.
There's meters.
Yeah.
Just Kelvin.
There's systems that we use to measure things because we're doing science.
And if I were out there telling you, actually, here's the thing, we're going to keep doing science.
I'm just going to kind of slightly change the definition of a Kelvin or of a meter every day.
You'd be like, that's insane.
Because it is insane.
But that's what we do with money.
So Bitcoin is the metric system of money.
Full stop.
It's like a standard unit of account for money.
It's a metric system for money.
It's a great way to do it.
And gold has been that for thousands of years.
It's imperfect, but by far the best thing that humans discovered throughout our history.
Right.
And now we have developed the perfect system for measuring money, measuring wealth.
Closest to perfect.
I mean, we'll see.
Who knows?
Maybe something far from the future one day will even replace Bitcoin.
For now.
Okay.
I think we are down to just a few minutes.
We have a third topic, do we?
The Apple memory.
Did you guys order your iPhone this morning?
Oh, is today the first?
Today's the first day for pre-order.
Oh, I need to because I want to be hacker-proof.
I ordered the orange one, of course.
Oh, there's an orange one.
Steve.
I don't know.
I don't read the news.
I actually don't know either.
I'm related.
I have no idea.
I don't read the news, but I've got like an iPhone 13.
I've got like an old school.
I'm like desperate.
I'm rocking the SE and it's busted.
My battery is like less.
I've had two iPhone 16s in less than a year.
Oh, okay.
So you're very moderate.
Due to failure.
Well, yeah.
Production issues.
I'm debating moving back to a Nokia at this point.
Anyway, I'll have to check out the orange one.
But no, Apple announced a new type of memory in the iPhone 17, along with operating system software changes that implement memory tagging.
I actually forget MIE, I think.
I forget what it even stands for.
but I didn't study the details,
so don't ask me to explain it in depth,
but the customer benefit is it significantly reduces
or can even eliminate certain categories of malware.
So that's a good thing.
So, I mean, honestly, I could see this being a difference maker
for people choosing between an iPhone and an Android phone.
You said it's a new memory system?
Yeah, memory tagging.
So a very common way that malware or viruses can take control of a computer and get root access is if a software application is identified to have a bug where you have a memory overflow error.
So you might have an array, like a region of memory in which there's bugs and it tries to access outside of that memory.
And that was not the programmer's intention, but that's how the software works.
If a hacker learns that, discovers that, then they can take advantage of it by getting the program to start running their software instead of the actual program.
So with memory tagging, the actual hardware in conjunction with the OS can tag memory so that if that memory, like that out of bounds access is made, it will throw a hardware exception.
And so the OS can then decide to just kill the process.
So it's, I mean, it's pretty incredible.
So this is done at the hardware level.
Like meaning like you have an object and in memory and then like the hardware actually knows.
It knows where it's supposed to be able to be allowed to live.
Yeah.
And is that, has this been done before on like traditional computers and just made its way into iPhone finally?
What I read, I mean, Arm announced like sort of a memory tracking protocol maybe like five years ago.
And I think it adopted that.
And Apple extended and embraced it, I think.
They took that, adopted it, made it better.
but I mean
I think Graphene OS
got pissed off about this because they've been doing it
forever but like you know Apple
there's a lot more Apple customers
and they control the hardware
and the software. Graphene OS
doesn't control the hardware so I think that's why
it's a big deal.
Could Android choose
to do this or is it like the OEM
versus open source OS thing
makes it tough to...
The Apple semiconductor chips were modified to support this
so I mean you could do it in software
but then it's like super inefficient.
I see.
One thing,
I don't understand all that yet.
I'm going to go deeper.
It sounds great.
One thing that I will say is,
in general,
it's awesome how much Apple
really does seem to like
walk the walk on privacy.
You know, we talked about
security and privacy.
Security and privacy.
Shout out to the OpenAI,
or not OpenAI,
the actually OpenAI,
MapleAI,
OpenSeeker guys,
who, you know,
have this,
we talked about the secure
or the trusted execution environment
in the cloud,
which effectively is
they took something from Apple,
like a concept that Apple is pioneering
their own cloud and giving it to everyone
which is awesome, we should find a way to get
Apple more involved in Cydia.
Because I feel like there's so much
like our ethos is very, very aligned.
Yep, yep. I agree.
Rom comes
here often and he works for Apple so he's
got to help us out.
If there's any Apple people listening,
we're very aligned.
Very cool.
Alright, I think that's good. Good wrap.
Alright. Good to see you guys.
Thanks, Juan.
Bye-bye.