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All right, Friday at noon, welcome to the Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

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And welcome to all of our new visitors here from LinkedIn.

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Yes, we're now streaming to LinkedIn.

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We're streaming live on LinkedIn.

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And I just learned that Max is a LinkedIn maximalist.

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I have become a LinkedIn maximalist, guys.

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How did that happen?

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Yeah, I thought I was going to defect from Twitter and run to Nostra.

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It's LinkedIn.

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I'm not even kidding.

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I don't know where to start this, but fuck it.

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Let's start here.

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we're going to talk more about what we just announced this week,

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type 1 summit, some serious things to discuss.

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But can I just say, the alpha is on LinkedIn.

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Twitter, as you said, there's so much damn content you're posting.

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There's noise.

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On LinkedIn, everybody and their sister's on LinkedIn,

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and ain't nobody posting anything interesting.

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I've got so much more interest and feedback in our event on LinkedIn,

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and I'm shocked.

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You've got to watch your NSFW mouth.

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Oh.

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It's work. It's literally work.

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Also, I've got to call you out for a second on here.

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Uh, actually shout out to Anjali cause she found this.

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I don't know why we were talking about people come into the event.

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She looked at your profile and said, yo, what is going on with DK going unhinged?

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Come at me, bro.

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Yeah.

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That's my LinkedIn profile.

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That's my bio.

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That's your bio.

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What is going on with this unhinged bio?

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I don't know.

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What are you going to say?

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Come at me, bro.

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Should we come at you?

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Like connect.

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Let's go.

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The spiciest thing I've seen on LinkedIn.

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I know by far.

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I think there's not like as much range bait on LinkedIn too.

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The algo probably doesn't optimize for that yet, at least.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Furtle ground.

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And to be clear, most content on LinkedIn sucks.

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Like most of us are just like, oh, congratulations, I'm doing a thing.

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But you actually have something interesting to post.

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Max is now insulted about half the viewership.

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Yeah, whatever.

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It's trash.

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But everyone's there and everyone's addicted.

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And because it's all trash, there's opportunity.

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So if you're not already LinkedIn maxing, like I highly agree.

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But that would require us to be putting out good content.

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Wow.

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Speaking of good content,

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I'm going to do a quick product review.

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It has nothing to do with Bitcoin or software.

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You got new running shoes?

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I got new running shoes.

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How did I guess that?

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It was not revealed in the chat.

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I didn't tell you that.

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Wow, good guess.

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Seems like you guys have known each other for a while.

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I bought the OG Nike Vaporflies

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like six, seven years ago.

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That's with the carbon plate in it, right?

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I mean, there's been studies after study,

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and Strava Davis shows it makes a material difference

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on your performances,

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whether it be on the track or marathons or whatever.

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Are they legal?

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To the tune of 4%.

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Are they legal for Olympic marathon?

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Yes, they're legal.

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So I've had them for a long time,

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but they wear out quickly,

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so I usually just reserve them for the track.

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You get like 200 miles on them or something, right?

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Something like that.

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Only 200 miles?

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Why is that?

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That's even nothing.

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They're brittle shoes.

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that are performance.

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I know nothing about tracks.

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It's like if you have a Formula 1 car.

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You wouldn't drive it to a whole...

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Or performance tires versus reliable.

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As someone who knows nothing,

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would it be better just to do it barefoot?

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No.

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Especially these shoes.

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As soon as you put them on and run,

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you feel the performance increase.

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It's crazy.

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Really?

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I'd be curious if you timed yourself barefoot

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versus the shoes, how much they make a difference.

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Barefoot is definitely not the fastest.

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anyway so I've had those shoes a long time but yet they have like something like 170 miles on them

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they're tattered um so I bought the latest and greatest vaporflies the vaporfly 4s and I've got

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to say they're the coolest looking shoe that I've ever seen they're amazingly cool looking but I wore

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them today on the track and this is made in void little disappointed in the performance oh no I had

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read reviews where nothing's like the OGs

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and I actually agree with those reviews. They both

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feel, they don't feel as much,

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they don't feel as fast as the OG, Vaporflies

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and

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my times in the 800 intervals were

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slightly worse.

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Okay, but then what are your times in the 800

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intervals?

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I was expecting one or two seconds

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per 800 faster due to

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fitness gains. Not even the shoes.

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Maybe even a boost because of the shoes.

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And I was one second slower.

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And anyone who does 800 intervals knows that one second is significant.

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The fitness gains you're talking about here.

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How do we know there are fitness gains?

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Well, I mean, it's not like a controlled test, right?

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These are some three-minute 800s, I'm sure.

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There are some barely, though.

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With these new shoes, barely some three minutes.

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But anyway, a little disappointed, but they are the coolest-looking shoes ever.

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You also bring up a very important, I think this is like a life philosophy question.

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many of us have to struggle with. And it's a choice we all have to make, which is the end of

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the day, you know, performance matters. Of course, we all want to win and do well with that we're

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doing, but also so does swag, right? And so sometimes there is a trade-off between performance

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and swag. And I think about this, like in the game of basketball, it's like, all right, you want to

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be the best? You're Michael Jordan, but that man's kind of a psychopath, right? Do you really want to

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be Michael Jordan? No. You want to be Allen Iverson. He didn't actually win the championship, but this

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man's out here, you know, he's wild now. He's having a good time. Practice. You want to talk

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about practice.

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And so sometimes, you know, you still want to do well,

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of course, but like, yeah. So I kind of like having

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both pair of shoes. There you go. When I want to

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perform my best or look my best. There you go.

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What about Scotty Pittman? Isn't he the Bitcoiner?

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Pittman? Oh, that. But he doesn't need a shit

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coiner. Scotty Pimpin.

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Most celebrities are Bitcoiner

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turned shit coiner.

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Whatever pumps are. It sounds like Paris

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Sulton or something. I don't know. Maybe.

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Anyhow, did you mention

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something about Type 1 Summit?

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Oh. Well, thank you for

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that excellent layup.

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Alley-oop talking about swag.

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What is type one?

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What does that even mean?

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Yeah, great question.

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So, Carter Sheff scale,

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everyone's probably heard of this,

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or maybe you haven't heard of this.

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Sci-fi, very popular among nerds, I suppose.

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But the idea is that...

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And he wrote, he's an author, right?

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Science fiction author, yeah.

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Who wrote a few books.

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Was it a particular book

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that this term came from?

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That's a good question.

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I actually don't know.

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I mean, it's become such a popular term.

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I don't remember which book originated from.

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But anyways, the gist of it is,

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is that taking a step back,

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as civilization, we are direct, like our advancement, our evolution is directly proportional to how much

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energy we can harness and use. And so this is something that's always bothered me, even though

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I definitely consider myself an environmentalist. We'll talk about solar and all this stuff. I've

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been in that industry and that world for decades at this point, almost decades. But I really,

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really kind of despise this idea of like, use less. And so dude, use less. Like the whole history

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of humanity, the whole history of bringing people out of poverty, doing new stuff,

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of pushing the frontiers is literally directly correlated to using more energy. That's it.

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Like if you, if you wanted to track one metric, one metric to say, where is, where are we at as

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a society? It's how much energy have we harvested for productive or however you want to define that

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purposes. And so the car is more, more energy naturally becomes better use of energy. That's

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correct. Those, those kind of go hand in hand and people seem to, I think, get a little twisted

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about it. Like using more energy, then the goal, you find you're using more energy and able to

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accomplishment where you're like, quick, let's use it more efficiently. So in effect, that's like a

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yin and yang kind of tug and pull that is kind of aligned with the environmentalist ideal.

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Totally.

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Right? So it's really both.

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Yeah. And as we're using more energy, we're doing so in a much more efficient, much cleaner,

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much more, I guess you're going to say, humanitarian way. So we can get into all that.

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But the Kardashev scale itself, type 1, type 2, type 3, type 1, you use all the energy from your

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star hitting your planet. So that would be all the radiation that hits the earth. Type two would be

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use all the energy from your sun itself. So you build like it's like a Dyson sphere or something

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around the sun. Type three would be all from your, so I guess that solar system, all your galaxy.

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I have no idea how the hell you get to type three. Type one is very, very, very doable. Type two

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actually is pretty doable. But even type one from here, that's a hugely ambitious goal. It's not

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like we're, where are we? Are we 2% in or 5% in? Well, we were debating this in our signal chat.

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We're three to four orders of magnitude away.

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That's right.

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Away from 100%.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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But much closer than my intuition.

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Like my intuition before looking at the numbers or really having any idea at all was six to

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seven orders of magnitude like a million, 10 million times away.

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But it's only like a thousand times away.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Three to four.

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So anyways.

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It feels like, you know.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Next week.

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It's like, yeah.

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Matter of time.

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One, as we start accelerating, right?

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And I think one of the other things you have to keep in mind, there's so many things,

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But like, when we talk about Bitcoin, we talk about this technology, it's, you can't look

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at anything like in isolation because everything affects everything else, right?

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So it was like, is all of our technology like just, you know, skyrockets on the AI front?

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Well, when we talk about that, that increases energy demand.

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And as we have, you know, Bitcoin is what I see is energy backed money and the ability

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to coordinate markets much better.

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That allows things to move faster.

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And so it's really hard to like, it's really hard to predict how long these things are

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going to take, which is why one of my other core theses in life is just like, don't ask

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all the questions. Don't be the guy in the middle of the curve or in the middle of the bell curve.

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If you see a curve like a Moore's law, or you see a curve of, I don't know, there's other laws I'm

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forgetting the names of, but if you see some curve that's directly relation between how much of

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something we deploy and the cost of something, don't ask too many questions, just roll with it.

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Because that's emergent intelligence. And that's one of my core beliefs in life is the human mind

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is limited. We can use the mind for very certain things, but at the end of the day, nature's

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intelligence is far greater than ours. So type one summit, you know, if we're three to four orders

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of magnitude away from using all of the sun's energy that's hitting our planet, you know,

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it's interesting because if you zoom out, it's like, we think we're so advanced and, you know,

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and, and, you know, and we just have so many just like political quibblings and all this

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bullshit argumentation. It's like, dude, we're so early in civilization. If you can, if you can just

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zoom out, just zoom out a little bit. It's like one day, the way that we look at a lot of ancient

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civilizations, although there's a question of how far an ancient civilization has gotten,

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That's a different rabbit hole.

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We could go down if you want.

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We're going to talk Mars?

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We could talk Mars, for sure.

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I was going to say the Asian Egyptians and the Athanas.

247
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I know.

248
00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:11,140
I knew who.

249
00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:15,440
Do you know offhand how much energy hits Mars?

250
00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:16,180
I don't.

251
00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:17,620
That'd be interesting.

252
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,840
One of the guys I'm a big fan of that I shout out to this dude, Casey Hannemer, who's taking

253
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,700
my solar maximals on mainstream, all of Silicon Valley.

254
00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:25,360
We'll talk about this.

255
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,260
They've been very skeptical, but I think he has the best blogger.

256
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:29,960
That man.

257
00:10:32,140 --> 00:10:32,780
Say it again.

258
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:33,260
What was it?

259
00:10:33,260 --> 00:10:33,980
Casey Handerburn.

260
00:10:34,180 --> 00:10:35,760
He's the guy that runs Terraformer Industries.

261
00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:36,880
I've been reading his blog.

262
00:10:36,980 --> 00:10:39,300
I've been just binging it for the last several months.

263
00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:40,780
He's starting to go mainstream now.

264
00:10:40,820 --> 00:10:42,600
I think he was on the Dworkesh Palad a couple weeks ago,

265
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,040
which is kind of bringing him to the mainstream.

266
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,700
And I mean this with all the affection in the world,

267
00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:48,940
like very high Tiz.

268
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,220
You read the articles, and it's just like,

269
00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,120
he goes through every calculation as highly as you want,

270
00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:54,880
like everything you want.

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00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,640
So he's got an article just on the Mars one,

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00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:57,620
and I would recommend.

273
00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:58,660
Basically, just read his blog.

274
00:10:58,660 --> 00:11:02,000
I didn't look at the deep, but I saw NASA just reported

275
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,700
there's evidence of microbial life in Mars history,

276
00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:08,060
which is interesting.

277
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:08,680
I didn't even know that.

278
00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:11,340
Perseverance, was that the name of the rover or whatever?

279
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:11,680
Yep.

280
00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:17,100
And then someone also linked to a harvard.edu post

281
00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:22,340
talking about evidence of nuclear power in Mars history.

282
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,460
I didn't read that either.

283
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:24,980
Wait a second.

284
00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:27,980
But it came from harvard.edu.

285
00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:29,980
So it must be true.

286
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:30,920
It must be true.

287
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,900
the fed.gov

288
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:33,060
is

289
00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:35,200
just make sure

290
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:35,440
you're back

291
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:35,900
for that

292
00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:38,600
when we

293
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:39,420
when we

294
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tapped out

295
00:11:40,260 --> 00:11:40,900
the energy

296
00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:41,780
on the earth

297
00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:42,700
we can go

298
00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:44,180
I will say though

299
00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:46,020
never in my wildest dreams

300
00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:46,860
I'm used to being

301
00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:47,500
someone that brings

302
00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:48,020
a little bit more

303
00:11:48,020 --> 00:11:48,620
provocative ideas

304
00:11:48,620 --> 00:11:49,520
never did I expect

305
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:50,880
Steve to make me go

306
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:51,560
dude what the fuck

307
00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,220
there was life on Mars

308
00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:55,260
we got the evidence baby

309
00:11:55,260 --> 00:11:56,360
it might have ended

310
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:56,940
in tragedy

311
00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:57,420
yeah

312
00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:58,280
yeah exactly

313
00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:58,960
so anyway

314
00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,540
so yeah

315
00:11:59,540 --> 00:12:00,620
there's rabbit holes

316
00:12:00,620 --> 00:12:02,100
of how many times we've been through this.

317
00:12:02,660 --> 00:12:03,400
Interesting question.

318
00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:05,080
Are we just going through another call right now?

319
00:12:05,140 --> 00:12:06,740
Yes, that's another interesting rabbit hole.

320
00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,900
But coming back to what we can do with our world today,

321
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,120
you know, again, I think,

322
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,260
and if it, we're probably going through

323
00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:15,420
something like the great filter right now,

324
00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:17,200
which is like, will we survive or will we not?

325
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,060
And as a species, I mean, we have nuclear weapons,

326
00:12:20,180 --> 00:12:21,600
we have all this stuff that's really, really bad

327
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:22,680
and people that are angry at each other

328
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:23,560
and all this fucked up stuff.

329
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,540
But we also have incredible technologies,

330
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:27,260
like energy technologies like solar,

331
00:12:27,420 --> 00:12:29,260
one day nuclear, but for now solar storage.

332
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:31,820
We have, you know, something like Bitcoin,

333
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,960
which is probably the greatest human coordination tool ever invented.

334
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,180
And we have Nostra.

335
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:38,780
We have all these incredible building blocks.

336
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,100
And so if we make it through here and we're, you know,

337
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:41,940
a thousand years in the future,

338
00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:44,400
people will one day look back at our civilization and be like,

339
00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:45,600
dude, these guys were so primitive.

340
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,560
They were using, you know, just a tiny fraction of their energy.

341
00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:49,820
They were trapped on this rock.

342
00:12:50,820 --> 00:12:53,280
And anyways, yeah, I think we're going to shoot for the stars and beyond.

343
00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:56,520
So that's part of the thesis.

344
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:15,820
The short-term thesis for the Type 1 Summit is also, if I put on more of my investor hat and where are we in the world today, there is a very specific need we have to, I would call it, free electricity markets or to build the internet of electricity.

345
00:13:16,540 --> 00:13:19,000
So over the last several months,

346
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,120
so for those of you who don't know,

347
00:13:20,180 --> 00:13:22,040
my background is originally in solar energy.

348
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,200
So back in the early 2010s,

349
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,120
I got fully solar pilled by Ramez Nam

350
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,320
and a few other guys.

351
00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:30,260
It was like the Casey Hennemer before Casey Hennemer.

352
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,700
I think he actually solar pilled Casey.

353
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:32,680
Shout out to Ramez.

354
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:33,820
He's actually going to come to our event.

355
00:13:34,060 --> 00:13:35,840
So we're chatting about it next week.

356
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,100
That's amazing.

357
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:36,440
Great.

358
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:37,100
Alpha League.

359
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:37,520
Good get, yeah.

360
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:38,860
Yeah, he's the man.

361
00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:39,660
I think he was also,

362
00:13:39,780 --> 00:13:41,080
he was at the Singularity Institute

363
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,060
and so it was like tight with Kurzweil and those guys.

364
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,180
And he's got some fascinating books also

365
00:13:45,180 --> 00:13:49,440
about like a human computer interaction, which we'll talk more about. Very, very good futurist.

366
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,300
And anyways, so I got fully solar pilled. And basically the thesis when I got fully solar

367
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:59,400
pilled was every doubling of cumulative capacity of solar installed, the levelized cost of

368
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,080
electricity, the end cost of electricity comes down by, we thought at the time, 20, 25% turns

369
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,640
out as more like 40, 42%. I think 42 is the number Casey is quoting. Storage batteries,

370
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,760
lithium ion batteries, and there's other materials, there's other formulas you could use for batteries.

371
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,840
But lithium ion batteries have been on a similar cost curve, which is to say every double

372
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,740
cumulative capacity installed, you end up with something like 20 to 25% reduction in

373
00:14:22,740 --> 00:14:25,500
the levelized cost of full cycle storage.

374
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,360
And so again, you know, left side of the curve, zoom out, don't ask why, don't ask questions.

375
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,760
I mean, the high level answer to why similar to something like Moore's law is economies

376
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,160
of scale and getting better with production.

377
00:14:37,940 --> 00:14:41,840
Both of these technologies are technologies that you can just mass produce over and over

378
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:42,540
and over and over again.

379
00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:46,020
And as you get better and you build more factories and you have more expertise, similar to computer chips.

380
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:53,320
In fact, what is a solar panel, but a little thing of, you know, silicon that takes a photon and converts it to an electron?

381
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,420
Which, by the way, I heard someone mention that we should call solar panels quantum converters.

382
00:14:57,540 --> 00:14:58,480
Way sexier, way better.

383
00:14:58,780 --> 00:15:00,900
But it's very similar and similar to lithium ion batteries.

384
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,020
You get these economies of scale.

385
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:06,400
The more you make as you mass produce, you get all these benefits of bringing down the cost.

386
00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:10,440
And so, yeah, I've been following this for well over a decade.

387
00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:17,180
Everyone who's ever made a prediction about this has, including Mez himself, has been wrong and always to the under.

388
00:15:17,380 --> 00:15:17,680
Always.

389
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,040
Every single time.

390
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:27,100
And so then at some point, there's always this kind of running joke in the energy circles where you have the IEA, the International Energy Agency.

391
00:15:27,380 --> 00:15:28,020
I don't know if it's international.

392
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:28,880
I think it's international.

393
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:33,240
And they're kind of similar to what we'd expect from Fed.gov or Harvard.edu.

394
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,180
And every year, every year, you know, it's so fucking funny.

395
00:15:37,180 --> 00:15:44,460
every year with solar panels, they would show, okay, so from last year to this year,

396
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,220
there was a whatever, 40%, 30%, whatever numbers are using, reduction in the levelized cost of

397
00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:55,020
electricity. But this year, it's going to flatline. And the next year, it would go down 20%, 30%.

398
00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:59,460
And they'd be like, okay, so there's another 20% to 30% reduction in the cost of electricity,

399
00:15:59,460 --> 00:16:03,600
but this year, it's going to flatline. Was there a reason that they thought it was going to flatline

400
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:04,060
and again and again?

401
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,580
It felt like there was some limitation

402
00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:09,880
to the ability to shrink the converters or something?

403
00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:12,120
I don't know anyone at the IEA,

404
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,860
but my high-level take is the same reason

405
00:16:14,860 --> 00:16:16,840
that all of our centralized institutions are collapsing.

406
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:17,900
Everything is...

407
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:19,800
Maybe they were long Exxon or something.

408
00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:21,020
Maybe they were long Exxon.

409
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,620
That's the even more cynical view.

410
00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:24,460
I was even going to be less cynical and just say,

411
00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,160
most people in these positions of power,

412
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,160
you don't lose your job for saying it's going to go up 2%.

413
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:31,580
Right.

414
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:36,500
you lose your job if you make some what sounds like a crazy person you know prediction and you're

415
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:43,200
wrong um so this doesn't apply to bitcoin price predictors right hey man the bitcoiners are

416
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,620
already crazy so there's there's no one judging us um anyways so so that keeps happening and so

417
00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:53,280
i've been just following these curves closely for well over a decade and um you know at the same

418
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,240
time obviously i've been very deep into bitcoin i see bitcoin as energy-backed money satoshi

419
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,380
Energy, one of my portfolio companies, really, really pilled me on that about five years ago.

420
00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:05,440
We've talked about this, but I literally, at the end of the day, I think it's a commodity currency.

421
00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:10,680
I think we're going to have the ability to answer empirical questions like what percentage of the

422
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,140
world's monetary or energy supply is necessary to secure the monetary supply, which the gold bugs

423
00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:18,240
have asked, but no one's been able to answer because it's all sort of theoretical. I think

424
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,380
we're going to answer that in our lifetime. Shout out to Drew Bansel for posing that question.

425
00:17:22,860 --> 00:17:26,880
And by the way, shout out, I don't even know if you guys know this yet, but I mentioned this

426
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,940
to Mark or to our friend Mark, Mark, if you're listening, and thinking a little bit more about

427
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:37,640
this in the context of I have a crazy idea for who could be doing this research and related to

428
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,440
our PBJ discussion of who are the economists and who's going to study Bitcoin. Anyways, there's all

429
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:47,300
this energy stuff. But yeah, so I've seen all this happening over years. And, you know, it's

430
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,200
been interesting to me, but obviously my focus in the last couple of years has been more on Nostra,

431
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,700
more on the Lightning Network, more on scaling Bitcoin. In the last several months, a few things

432
00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,620
have changed my perspective on the world.

433
00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,340
One thing is,

434
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,560
without doxing anyone's numbers or whatever,

435
00:18:02,060 --> 00:18:03,520
basically the companies I know

436
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:04,900
that started off in Bitcoin mining,

437
00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:05,880
still a great business,

438
00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:07,840
but like across the board

439
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,360
have started like pivoting into AI

440
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:10,440
and holy shit,

441
00:18:10,740 --> 00:18:12,160
I have never seen anything like this

442
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:12,860
in my entire life.

443
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:14,040
Without again,

444
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:14,960
revealing anyone's numbers,

445
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:15,880
but just look at Crusoe,

446
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:16,560
look at Satoshi,

447
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:17,900
look at all of these companies.

448
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:19,080
Like, dude, it's just like,

449
00:18:19,180 --> 00:18:21,000
it's just like a vertical line,

450
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,520
a vertical line.

451
00:18:22,980 --> 00:18:24,320
And the, I mean,

452
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,020
you can read all,

453
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:25,980
I mean, you can read my essay.

454
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:27,860
It's hivemind.vc slash grid.

455
00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:29,700
I lay all this out in excruciating detail.

456
00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:32,380
But like the majority of this

457
00:18:32,380 --> 00:18:34,100
is being driven by data centers, right?

458
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,400
So depending on, you know, whose numbers you look,

459
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,280
you have Zuckerberg committing to, you know,

460
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:39,660
hundreds of billions of dollars

461
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:41,860
to build, you know, data centers the size of Manhattan.

462
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:45,380
You've got Google kind of stealthily.

463
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:47,140
Google is like, Google's gangster now.

464
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:48,800
They're doing this, signing, you know,

465
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,780
sort of like quiet deals to build

466
00:18:50,780 --> 00:18:53,600
one and three gigawatt scale data centers right now,

467
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:54,560
mostly solar and battery,

468
00:18:54,560 --> 00:19:00,080
which we'll talk about. You've got Anthropics saying you need 50 gigawatts by 2028. You've

469
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:05,020
just got all these things. And then you've got Elon, the original Solar Maxi, who's the

470
00:19:05,020 --> 00:19:10,040
most solar-pilled person in the world, saying he wants to build one terawatt of compute.

471
00:19:11,020 --> 00:19:15,580
These numbers sound grandiose. They sound insane. But I mean, I'm not going to fade

472
00:19:15,580 --> 00:19:20,500
Elon, are you? And you see all these companies basically saying, if you trust the scaling

473
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:22,800
laws like Leopold, the guy that we discussed

474
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,400
a couple weeks ago.

475
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:26,120
Do you believe we just...

476
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,920
I started listening to...

477
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,660
He is on a podcast with

478
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:32,140
Dworkett.

479
00:19:33,220 --> 00:19:34,440
It's like four hours long.

480
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,360
That's good.

481
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:38,560
And I learned how to pronounce the last name, but I already

482
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,260
forget. It definitely wasn't what you said.

483
00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:42,120
I feel a little mad about that. I'm sorry.

484
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:43,720
I don't want to say Ashenbrenner, but...

485
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:44,540
That sounds right.

486
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,020
We already gave some love for the Tiz. I apologize.

487
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:50,240
They have a name. But anyways,

488
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:52,940
Um, he basically is just like, trust the curves.

489
00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:54,020
Scaling laws are not dead.

490
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,240
We just need a lot more compute.

491
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:56,740
He's calling for hundreds of gigawatts.

492
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,440
I think he's going to end up being like Mez was in the early 2010s.

493
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,360
Um, he's the most bullish person I know predicting stuff, but I think he's going to be too conservative.

494
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,520
Because whenever you see a J curve, never take the hundred.

495
00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:07,280
That's my general thesis.

496
00:20:07,540 --> 00:20:09,480
So you need all this compute.

497
00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:13,420
Problem is the grid as we have it today.

498
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:14,780
And there's not really just one grid.

499
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,280
There's actually, you know, you look at it kind of three grids.

500
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,980
And then there's a lot of subgrids below that, but like East, West, Texas.

501
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:21,480
because Texas always does its own thing.

502
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,700
And the more you drill into things,

503
00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:27,820
the more you realize our grid cannot take

504
00:20:27,820 --> 00:20:29,640
the amount of compute we're trying to bring online.

505
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:31,440
Impossible, impossible.

506
00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:34,940
So context, ERCOT,

507
00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:37,300
which is the freest electricity market in the world in Texas,

508
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,720
80 gigawatts of peak load or peak demand right now.

509
00:20:41,060 --> 00:20:43,520
What that means is whenever it's hot in Texas,

510
00:20:43,660 --> 00:20:44,800
which usually every summer,

511
00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:46,520
you got all the ACs running,

512
00:20:46,940 --> 00:20:49,280
you have the industrial smelters doing their smelting,

513
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,880
the businesses are running whatever they're running,

514
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:52,960
the computers, the data centers,

515
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:53,780
they already have there,

516
00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:55,760
which I don't know if it's a super hot spot,

517
00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:56,620
but I imagine there's some.

518
00:20:57,340 --> 00:20:58,440
That's 80 gigawatts.

519
00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:02,820
The amount of demand to interconnect

520
00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:04,640
mostly AI data centers right now,

521
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:06,480
I think I already told you,

522
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,260
you already read the essay, but.

523
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:09,420
Tell us.

524
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,140
Like 140, at least.

525
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,160
So basically double that.

526
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:24,476
And the AI boom is still very early And it not just Texas You can go to all the different states around the world and just see you know the TLDR is the amount even in Michigan which was shocking to me You have a question Go ahead

527
00:21:24,636 --> 00:21:29,236
Yeah. Even in Michigan, what's shocking to me, which is like a much, much smaller market,

528
00:21:29,896 --> 00:21:36,996
you have at least a doubling and sometimes like a tripling or more of all of the existing load

529
00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:41,436
asking to get built. Now, for the energy people in the audience, I will give the caveat. Yes,

530
00:21:41,436 --> 00:21:47,976
these queues are often over subscribed and a lot of these projects don't plan to get built and

531
00:21:47,976 --> 00:21:52,456
because and this is one of the ways we're gonna go there why is that because it's so fucking hard

532
00:21:52,456 --> 00:21:56,676
to get an internet connect to the grid that you throw in every possible application humanly

533
00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:59,436
possible you try and get all the finance you can because you know most of these are not getting

534
00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:04,176
approved and just having that sweet sweet sweet sweet spot on the line is so important that yes

535
00:22:04,176 --> 00:22:09,916
these are and that's the problem by the way these are numbers that are inflated but even if you like

536
00:22:09,916 --> 00:22:12,976
discount them heavily. We're talking about increasing the grid in a way that we've never

537
00:22:12,976 --> 00:22:18,716
done. Do you know offhand how much solar has been built out that's been built out? So it's not like

538
00:22:18,716 --> 00:22:23,116
a proposal, but it's been built out waiting to get connected and just sitting there.

539
00:22:23,296 --> 00:22:28,196
Well, typically you don't just have stuff built out waiting to get interconnected. There might be

540
00:22:28,196 --> 00:22:34,656
some, but generally you get the interconnect first because that's the project. Okay. So when you have

541
00:22:34,656 --> 00:22:39,576
the project finance for this stuff, the project financier, and these are typically really big

542
00:22:39,576 --> 00:22:45,956
funds or really big banks or funds like TPG or whatever, they need basically assurance

543
00:22:45,956 --> 00:22:48,076
that there's an off-taker and generally an interconnect.

544
00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:51,456
And so a lot of these projects will only get billed.

545
00:22:51,536 --> 00:22:53,316
They'll break ground on it once they know it's going to happen.

546
00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:54,636
There might be other examples of that.

547
00:22:54,696 --> 00:22:59,056
Maybe people that are deep in the industry can share some other examples, but that's

548
00:22:59,056 --> 00:22:59,816
generally the way it works.

549
00:22:59,816 --> 00:23:06,616
How much delay is there once you get that interconnect approval?

550
00:23:07,076 --> 00:23:09,356
How long from that until you're producing it?

551
00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:12,876
Well, that's a great question. And that's changing in real time. So right now, the interconnection

552
00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:17,256
queues, and I don't know, this is interconnection queues, this may not be from approval. So I don't

553
00:23:17,256 --> 00:23:24,796
know that specific piece of this, but five years. It's insane. And it's gotten way worse in the last

554
00:23:24,796 --> 00:23:30,956
couple of years. So I assume anybody who I mean, I agree with all of the the stuff you're laying

555
00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:37,556
out sounds very rational and logical. I think historically, it feels like these maybe like

556
00:23:37,556 --> 00:23:44,256
people doing the grid and generation and production were separate from the consumption of energy.

557
00:23:44,476 --> 00:23:49,316
But I think because there's all these big dollars being thrown around like AI data centers,

558
00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:53,356
they know that they're going to exceed the grid. How much do you think they're saying,

559
00:23:53,576 --> 00:24:00,116
we also need to plan for the energy? Or are they saying we need to find third-party providers? Or

560
00:24:00,116 --> 00:24:02,436
how does that dynamic work?

561
00:24:02,676 --> 00:24:04,476
Well, I'm not sure I understand your question. Who?

562
00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:07,736
So Zuckerberg says, I'm going to spend $600 billion in the US.

563
00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:11,136
And he's like, we need to build tons of data centers because AI stuff's going off the rails.

564
00:24:11,496 --> 00:24:13,916
Is he saying, I hope somebody shows up with the energy?

565
00:24:14,016 --> 00:24:16,356
Or is he saying, we need to fix the energy thing for ourselves?

566
00:24:16,456 --> 00:24:16,916
That's a good question.

567
00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:18,256
I think it differs company by company.

568
00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:23,716
So generally speaking, my understanding is they probably do for them internal.

569
00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:24,836
I'm not an expert.

570
00:24:24,976 --> 00:24:28,136
If there's people at the hyperscalers, we'd love to get more of the hyperscalers coming to our summit.

571
00:24:28,236 --> 00:24:29,056
We've got the energy people.

572
00:24:30,056 --> 00:24:30,416
Awesome.

573
00:24:30,416 --> 00:24:32,656
If you know hyperscalers or cloud folks,

574
00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:35,216
we definitely want to get more of those folks in the room

575
00:24:35,216 --> 00:24:36,416
to better understand the details.

576
00:24:36,416 --> 00:24:37,396
The core weaves of the world?

577
00:24:37,496 --> 00:24:38,896
The core weaves, which hopefully we'll get.

578
00:24:39,496 --> 00:24:42,556
Chase, hopefully, from Crusoe is going to be a yes.

579
00:24:43,296 --> 00:24:44,656
But we'd also love to get folks.

580
00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:45,936
No pressure, Chase.

581
00:24:46,036 --> 00:24:46,516
Yeah, no pressure.

582
00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:48,456
If you're listening to this, shout out.

583
00:24:49,096 --> 00:24:51,776
Chase is a day zero, high mine LP as well.

584
00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:55,896
But we need decision makers from the big companies.

585
00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:57,576
And so I guess it differs company by company.

586
00:24:57,576 --> 00:25:01,276
Zuck may be a little different because he can just do some more of what he wants.

587
00:25:01,896 --> 00:25:06,396
But generally speaking, I think they would contract out to someone else to actually build

588
00:25:06,396 --> 00:25:07,776
the energy infrastructure piece of this.

589
00:25:08,136 --> 00:25:10,836
I don't know if they actually want to own the data centers themselves or not.

590
00:25:10,896 --> 00:25:12,096
There's one entity that does that.

591
00:25:12,096 --> 00:25:15,936
I would say in almost all the hyperscalers, I think they do want to own the data centers.

592
00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:17,136
Yeah, that makes sense.

593
00:25:17,256 --> 00:25:17,396
Yeah.

594
00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:23,236
And so I'm just wondering, because the energy piece of it is such a big risk, and it's also

595
00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:28,036
kind of like strategic. If you have a third party who could turn it off, then you're kind of like,

596
00:25:28,416 --> 00:25:32,776
you know, in a bad power dynamic with them. So if you're like, look, I'm going to go build out

597
00:25:32,776 --> 00:25:37,176
this huge data center. Are you also saying I'm also going to build out the energy for my data

598
00:25:37,176 --> 00:25:40,836
center? Or are they like, historically, they've been a little more separate, but it seems to me

599
00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:46,756
that those would converge. Yeah. Generally, you do have both parties agree. So you have an off

600
00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:56,756
So whoever is the solar or whatever, any energy generation site builder, they're going to have a contract with a hyperscaler to get going.

601
00:25:57,296 --> 00:26:05,696
And even then, by the way, it's a very interesting, another company in my portfolio is Sonoda, Austin Mitchell, who is also sort of an expert on the energy staff, also going to come.

602
00:26:06,296 --> 00:26:12,656
He has made the point that even in those worlds, so much of this industry is risk-driven.

603
00:26:12,656 --> 00:26:14,676
because even if you say,

604
00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:16,856
I have this contract from Google,

605
00:26:17,296 --> 00:26:18,416
like they could still back out.

606
00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:20,816
And so there's always this risk of like,

607
00:26:20,856 --> 00:26:21,976
how do we know we're actually going to get paid?

608
00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:23,656
Something that both he and Satoshi

609
00:26:23,656 --> 00:26:24,856
are working on in slightly different ways

610
00:26:24,856 --> 00:26:26,696
is like, how do you reduce credit risk?

611
00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:28,556
So you have like real-time settlement of payments,

612
00:26:28,976 --> 00:26:29,636
which is something-

613
00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:31,436
When you say Satoshi, the audience might-

614
00:26:31,436 --> 00:26:34,776
Oh, sorry, for Satoshi Energy, satoshienergy.com.

615
00:26:35,416 --> 00:26:36,256
Are you talking about the risk

616
00:26:36,256 --> 00:26:38,956
between the people constructing the generator

617
00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:40,776
and the people who would be consuming it?

618
00:26:40,816 --> 00:26:41,776
And mostly for the underwriter.

619
00:26:41,856 --> 00:26:42,296
And I'm saying-

620
00:26:42,656 --> 00:26:50,676
Isn't it the case that if you know that you're going to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in building the data center, you may not choose to work with a third party?

621
00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:51,576
That's a great question.

622
00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:53,136
Is it a very different skill set?

623
00:26:53,176 --> 00:26:56,336
I know that it's a different skill set building software versus building a data center.

624
00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:57,636
Yeah, it's definitely a different skill set.

625
00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:01,756
But they've all adopted the expertise internally to be able to build the data centers.

626
00:27:01,936 --> 00:27:05,356
It's a good question and something that I would love to get those folks to have a better understanding.

627
00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:07,876
My sense is that's probably changing in real time.

628
00:27:07,876 --> 00:27:12,796
historically it is a very different skill set to be able to for example navigate the interconnection

629
00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:16,576
process build the farms like that's like that's what a company like satoshi does and they're like

630
00:27:16,576 --> 00:27:22,076
they're effectively brokers between data centers and um it used to be um more miners but now ai as

631
00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:26,276
well and the energy asset owner and the energy asset owner typically i mean to be clear like

632
00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:29,596
we're talking about scales of like many many billions of dollars to build this kind of stuff

633
00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:34,576
so you generally have some major underwriter at the table and like yes the googles and facebook's

634
00:27:34,576 --> 00:27:35,516
could underwrite that,

635
00:27:35,576 --> 00:27:37,036
but that's not been their core business.

636
00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:39,256
It's very different in terms of the returns profiles

637
00:27:39,256 --> 00:27:40,076
they're going to get from something else.

638
00:27:40,396 --> 00:27:41,956
But to your point, that could be changing.

639
00:27:42,056 --> 00:27:42,776
It probably is changing.

640
00:27:42,776 --> 00:27:44,236
It feels to me like it would be changing.

641
00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:47,936
So shouldn't we definitely try to get folks

642
00:27:47,936 --> 00:27:50,056
from Google, Microsoft, Facebook?

643
00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:50,516
Yes.

644
00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:53,216
I've got the energy side pretty covered.

645
00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:55,276
I don't have that yet, and that should be our time.

646
00:27:55,276 --> 00:27:57,096
Because I have a big strategic question about that.

647
00:27:57,096 --> 00:27:57,836
Let's get to work on that.

648
00:27:57,976 --> 00:27:59,336
That sounds like an interesting one.

649
00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:02,616
To me, it feels rational that that would change

650
00:28:02,616 --> 00:28:04,396
because it's not like a money issue.

651
00:28:04,576 --> 00:28:05,976
And they're already committing.

652
00:28:06,136 --> 00:28:07,276
And if they're going to be like,

653
00:28:07,536 --> 00:28:09,756
you know, it's almost like any strategic relationship.

654
00:28:10,256 --> 00:28:12,236
Like if you have a single customer,

655
00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:13,296
you're in trouble.

656
00:28:13,416 --> 00:28:14,796
If you have thousands of customers,

657
00:28:14,896 --> 00:28:16,176
then any one of them could abandon.

658
00:28:16,296 --> 00:28:17,636
Whereas if you are the single customer,

659
00:28:17,736 --> 00:28:18,676
you should just also,

660
00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:20,156
you can arrange project financing.

661
00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:23,136
I'll give you one data point on what's happening.

662
00:28:23,356 --> 00:28:24,076
Google is being,

663
00:28:24,296 --> 00:28:25,576
and again, a lot of this is kind of like,

664
00:28:25,576 --> 00:28:26,676
Google is like, you know,

665
00:28:27,096 --> 00:28:30,256
Google is lasagna right now.

666
00:28:31,136 --> 00:28:32,076
Silent like a G?

667
00:28:32,256 --> 00:28:32,916
Silent like a G.

668
00:28:32,976 --> 00:28:33,396
In lasagna?

669
00:28:33,396 --> 00:28:35,436
Yeah, like, you know, Facebook's out here.

670
00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:36,396
I'd say Google is like a G.

671
00:28:37,616 --> 00:28:38,456
A G in all sense.

672
00:28:39,116 --> 00:28:40,376
Facebook's out here making a lot of noise.

673
00:28:40,476 --> 00:28:41,216
Elon's making a lot of noise.

674
00:28:41,276 --> 00:28:42,396
By the way, Elon's going to own it all.

675
00:28:43,016 --> 00:28:45,076
I mean, again, if I had to bet the farm

676
00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:46,556
on who's going to build the terawatt of off-grid,

677
00:28:46,576 --> 00:28:47,196
it's going to be Elon.

678
00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:48,736
But, like, we should all still try

679
00:28:48,736 --> 00:28:49,816
and, like, get more people involved.

680
00:28:50,656 --> 00:28:51,736
But, like, it's going to be Elon.

681
00:28:52,296 --> 00:28:55,916
And Google's the only other in my group that could try.

682
00:28:56,076 --> 00:28:59,116
And, like, they're more, as I've gone on the rabbit hole,

683
00:28:59,156 --> 00:29:00,216
they're more impressive than I realized,

684
00:29:00,276 --> 00:29:01,136
but I still wouldn't pay Elon.

685
00:29:01,136 --> 00:29:10,416
So what they're doing from what I can tell is they're taking major positions in a lot of these companies right now on the development and data center side.

686
00:29:10,536 --> 00:29:13,256
So two major positions they've taken in the last several months.

687
00:29:13,376 --> 00:29:15,716
The big one, which is very interesting to me, is Intersect Power.

688
00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:19,516
Intersect raised, I think it was like $800 million round, like very large round.

689
00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:24,256
And they're still a private company, but they basically are a solar developer.

690
00:29:24,676 --> 00:29:25,236
Solar and storage.

691
00:29:25,496 --> 00:29:26,336
That's basically what they do.

692
00:29:26,376 --> 00:29:28,116
They do some net gas and you're going to hook up some net gas.

693
00:29:28,116 --> 00:29:30,856
but they raised a major strategic ground

694
00:29:30,856 --> 00:29:32,456
from Google and from TPG

695
00:29:32,456 --> 00:29:33,956
and their climate fund.

696
00:29:34,776 --> 00:29:36,976
And yeah, so like they,

697
00:29:37,136 --> 00:29:38,036
I mean, it's not Google,

698
00:29:38,216 --> 00:29:39,236
but like, I mean,

699
00:29:39,256 --> 00:29:39,876
they effectively are,

700
00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:43,036
it's a quiet acquisition, I'd say.

701
00:29:43,296 --> 00:29:44,036
I have a question.

702
00:29:44,456 --> 00:29:47,196
Would love to discuss your views,

703
00:29:47,596 --> 00:29:48,576
your most recent views

704
00:29:48,576 --> 00:29:50,256
on Bitcoin's role on all of this.

705
00:29:50,416 --> 00:29:52,176
And I'll bring up a couple of examples.

706
00:29:52,596 --> 00:29:52,836
Please.

707
00:29:53,056 --> 00:29:54,476
Recently, we talked in this show,

708
00:29:54,576 --> 00:29:55,476
I don't know, maybe a few months ago,

709
00:29:55,476 --> 00:29:57,156
but like it was this year we talked about

710
00:29:57,156 --> 00:30:01,176
how like these data center companies,

711
00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:05,576
they either emerged to satisfy AI

712
00:30:05,576 --> 00:30:08,316
or they've transitioned from Bitcoin to AI.

713
00:30:08,616 --> 00:30:11,076
But that Bitcoin still plays a role,

714
00:30:11,436 --> 00:30:14,156
at minimum plays a role to be like a scout,

715
00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:16,836
like scouting new physical locations

716
00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:19,936
and being the first user to build out.

717
00:30:19,936 --> 00:30:23,316
And then stage two would be to advance it

718
00:30:23,316 --> 00:30:24,736
so that AI can be used there.

719
00:30:25,796 --> 00:30:26,796
So I assume that hasn't, you know,

720
00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:30,036
So that's one way that Bitcoin is related.

721
00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:46,096
But what about like four years ago, over four years ago, you wrote the paper in conjunction with Square and us, which talked about a different application, which was just making it more economical to finance new energy projects.

722
00:30:46,096 --> 00:30:46,336
Yes.

723
00:30:46,336 --> 00:30:49,816
But with a combination of Bitcoin mining, batteries, and solar.

724
00:30:50,116 --> 00:30:50,216
Yep.

725
00:30:50,376 --> 00:30:55,416
And like an oversupply of solar so that you can address the duck curve.

726
00:30:55,416 --> 00:31:00,916
have your views so number one if your views changed on that do you still see bitcoin playing

727
00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:07,796
that role um and then two are there any other ways you see bitcoin being part of this yes for sure

728
00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:11,476
and i should address one thing before i jump into those questions which i think is important just to

729
00:31:11,476 --> 00:31:16,516
to sort of tie the knot on this for the audience so a big part of my thesis in this essay is

730
00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:22,796
if the grid is so sclerotic and so fucked that we literally even if we slashed regulation which i

731
00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:23,996
I think, yes, that's part of it.

732
00:31:24,136 --> 00:31:24,956
But it's not just regulation.

733
00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:28,756
It's also just like the physical infrastructure is so bad and so dated.

734
00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:32,856
I think the like, I forgot, like one of the like civic engineer groups gave us a D plus

735
00:31:32,856 --> 00:31:33,696
infrastructure rating.

736
00:31:34,656 --> 00:31:37,916
There's also like, even if you wanted to build a lot more transmission distribution, good

737
00:31:37,916 --> 00:31:38,956
luck getting transformers.

738
00:31:39,076 --> 00:31:40,316
There are no transformers.

739
00:31:40,676 --> 00:31:43,956
So there's all of these problems where even if you wanted to slash all regulation, go

740
00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:45,636
full Texas and Texas is doing that.

741
00:31:46,736 --> 00:31:51,996
It's extremely difficult to imagine a world where that could happen in the next five years.

742
00:31:51,996 --> 00:31:55,976
And one of my theses, by the way, is that the next five years matters a lot.

743
00:31:56,056 --> 00:31:58,676
And so there's also this position in Silicon Valley, which is very popular.

744
00:31:58,976 --> 00:32:00,716
And that position is, let's do nuclear.

745
00:32:01,056 --> 00:32:01,796
Not anti-nuclear.

746
00:32:01,996 --> 00:32:02,216
It's cool.

747
00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:04,556
There's no way nuclear is going to rock and roll in the next five years.

748
00:32:04,936 --> 00:32:08,696
I'm also the view that, I guess this is a little controversial.

749
00:32:08,816 --> 00:32:12,376
I don't mean this in a bad way, but it's kind of true, which is like, we either figure this

750
00:32:12,376 --> 00:32:14,196
out in the next five years or start learning Mandarin.

751
00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:15,536
That's my take.

752
00:32:15,776 --> 00:32:16,576
I knew you were going to say that.

753
00:32:17,016 --> 00:32:17,496
That's a good line.

754
00:32:18,756 --> 00:32:21,896
But it conveys, it's kind of a joke, but it conveys a lot of information.

755
00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:23,256
And I'm not anti-China either.

756
00:32:23,416 --> 00:32:24,016
Like, good on them.

757
00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:25,976
They've been so smart and so ahead of the curve.

758
00:32:26,316 --> 00:32:29,796
But it's just kind of like shocking to see the U.S. be so far behind.

759
00:32:30,536 --> 00:32:32,096
Is it Leo? Leonardo?

760
00:32:32,616 --> 00:32:33,516
Leopold? Leopold.

761
00:32:33,616 --> 00:32:34,276
Sorry, Leopold.

762
00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:35,076
DiCaprio?

763
00:32:35,416 --> 00:32:35,776
Yeah.

764
00:32:36,376 --> 00:32:37,296
Leopold DiCaprio.

765
00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:39,676
Leopold.

766
00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:43,636
He touches on the geopolitical ramifications.

767
00:32:43,936 --> 00:32:44,276
Very well.

768
00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:45,596
Right at the beginning of that podcast.

769
00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:46,076
Yeah.

770
00:32:46,316 --> 00:32:48,056
And I would argue, I mean, again, energy.

771
00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:51,316
So one of my core theses on Bitcoin, Bitcoin is energy back to money.

772
00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,756
if you think about it, there really is only one currency in the known universe and it's always

773
00:32:54,756 --> 00:32:58,796
jewels. That's it. It's only jewels. Everything we've ever used as money is a proxy in the energy

774
00:32:58,796 --> 00:33:04,756
full stop. Gold, oil, whatever you want to say, it's always jewels. And so, yeah. And what do

775
00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:12,916
countries fight over? Power. And what is power? Application of jewels. So you think about this

776
00:33:12,916 --> 00:33:19,296
and anyways, there's a lot of interesting rabbit holes. I'm not anti-China, but I do think that

777
00:33:19,296 --> 00:33:23,816
it would be radically irresponsible for us to let them just run away with the IRAs.

778
00:33:23,936 --> 00:33:27,356
Because they're, by the way, I mean, you can see in my essay, you can see all over Twitter,

779
00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:31,756
if you want, just look at Elon's Twitter feed, the amount of solar that China is deploying right now,

780
00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:35,496
like over the next three years, the amount of solar they're set to deploy is going to dwarf

781
00:33:35,496 --> 00:33:40,216
our entire generation capacity in the United States combined, the entire grid, all of it.

782
00:33:40,656 --> 00:33:44,216
And it's just, it's literally, it's a vertical line. And that's because they understand what's

783
00:33:44,216 --> 00:33:48,076
going on. And so, so, you know, again, nuclear, yeah, they're building some nuclear, but like,

784
00:33:48,496 --> 00:33:50,416
You just can't compete with the cost curves.

785
00:33:50,576 --> 00:33:52,236
And so, by the way, I should also clarify,

786
00:33:52,656 --> 00:33:54,736
solar plus storage is the missing piece

787
00:33:54,736 --> 00:33:56,696
because if you just do solar, yes, I get it.

788
00:33:56,856 --> 00:33:58,396
Sun only shines half the day, got it.

789
00:33:58,856 --> 00:34:01,136
But if you then combine that with cheap enough batteries,

790
00:34:01,636 --> 00:34:03,656
all of a sudden you can have many days off-grid.

791
00:34:04,516 --> 00:34:05,256
And by the way, I mean,

792
00:34:05,296 --> 00:34:06,816
if you have other cheap sources of electricity,

793
00:34:06,896 --> 00:34:07,416
I'm not into that.

794
00:34:07,456 --> 00:34:08,836
If you have cheap geothermal, great.

795
00:34:09,216 --> 00:34:10,196
If you do, for whatever reason,

796
00:34:10,296 --> 00:34:11,936
have nuclear that's already working, great.

797
00:34:12,216 --> 00:34:13,256
There's going to be many uses,

798
00:34:13,396 --> 00:34:15,076
cases for NatGas as well.

799
00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:16,136
And I actually have some creative ways

800
00:34:16,136 --> 00:34:18,336
you can do sort of in Casey's style,

801
00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:21,016
create synthetic net gas from solar

802
00:34:21,016 --> 00:34:22,796
and just store it there on site

803
00:34:22,796 --> 00:34:25,136
so you don't even need to use the pipelines.

804
00:34:25,696 --> 00:34:28,116
So anyways, we can go deeper on that

805
00:34:28,116 --> 00:34:28,976
if you guys have questions on that.

806
00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:29,316
Bitcoin.

807
00:34:29,816 --> 00:34:30,596
Yeah, we'll get into Bitcoin.

808
00:34:30,716 --> 00:34:31,916
I have one thing,

809
00:34:32,396 --> 00:34:33,796
and I think I mentioned it to you before

810
00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:34,736
a few weeks ago,

811
00:34:34,796 --> 00:34:35,916
but I was hanging out with a group

812
00:34:35,916 --> 00:34:38,016
of kind of sci-fi thinkers,

813
00:34:38,936 --> 00:34:40,256
and one guy was saying...

814
00:34:40,256 --> 00:34:40,916
That sounds spicy.

815
00:34:41,456 --> 00:34:43,056
One guy was suggesting that

816
00:34:43,056 --> 00:34:46,016
it may be credible to...

817
00:34:46,136 --> 00:34:50,456
be collecting solar from outer space

818
00:34:50,456 --> 00:34:55,036
and beaming it back in some sort of microwave rectangular shape.

819
00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:55,636
I don't know.

820
00:34:55,996 --> 00:34:56,996
Do you know anything about this?

821
00:34:57,036 --> 00:34:57,516
Is this credible?

822
00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:01,196
That I don't have a strong opinion.

823
00:35:01,196 --> 00:35:03,176
I've seen strong arguments either way.

824
00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:04,116
In the long run, yes.

825
00:35:04,996 --> 00:35:06,456
But let's get to that later

826
00:35:06,456 --> 00:35:08,096
because I think that's its own really interesting rabbit hole.

827
00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:09,996
So in order to get to Bitcoin,

828
00:35:10,296 --> 00:35:12,216
the last piece of my thesis that's important is

829
00:35:12,216 --> 00:35:15,776
one of my goals or one of my kind of like ideas for the summit is,

830
00:35:15,776 --> 00:35:23,136
okay, if the old grid is so broken, leave it, defect, and build a new grid in the style of

831
00:35:23,136 --> 00:35:26,816
Buckminster Fuller, you know, instead of trying to change things that are broken, just build

832
00:35:26,816 --> 00:35:31,456
something new that makes the old obsolete. Like, like why waste all of our time, like with all

833
00:35:31,456 --> 00:35:38,276
these frustrating, just impossibly opaque rules and all this stuff, like, let's just go build new.

834
00:35:38,796 --> 00:35:43,916
And so there's obviously many impediments to doing that. But my sort of vision for this is,

835
00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:47,576
can we build eventually a terawatt scale, many of them,

836
00:35:47,876 --> 00:35:50,476
grid, off-grid, solar plus storage,

837
00:35:50,976 --> 00:35:52,916
maybe you need some net gas and there's ways to do that, fine,

838
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:55,656
sites where you don't need the interconnection.

839
00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:56,976
I would love to get the interconnection.

840
00:35:56,976 --> 00:36:00,356
And eventually my view is we connect all of these sites together

841
00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:02,336
and eventually subsume the old grid

842
00:36:02,336 --> 00:36:04,356
and the old grid joins us in this new free market.

843
00:36:04,756 --> 00:36:08,336
Now, to your question on Bitcoin, in order for that-

844
00:36:08,336 --> 00:36:10,076
That's how media has worked, by the way, right, with the internet.

845
00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:11,096
That's how everything works.

846
00:36:11,696 --> 00:36:13,636
I don't think this is a controversial opinion at all.

847
00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:15,196
It's like, that's how payment networks were.

848
00:36:15,436 --> 00:36:16,736
What's the old story of like, you know,

849
00:36:16,776 --> 00:36:19,536
we started doing the internet over phone lines,

850
00:36:19,896 --> 00:36:20,556
phone lines, right?

851
00:36:21,416 --> 00:36:22,376
Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

852
00:36:22,436 --> 00:36:22,776
Yep, yep, yep.

853
00:36:22,936 --> 00:36:25,616
And then we got to whatever we're using now.

854
00:36:25,876 --> 00:36:28,076
And anyways, fiber.

855
00:36:28,736 --> 00:36:32,256
But meaning like when, say like when Twitter launched day one,

856
00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:35,036
it was like you're talking about sandwiches

857
00:36:35,036 --> 00:36:36,356
that you're eating for lunch.

858
00:36:36,556 --> 00:36:38,336
The New York Times does not want to be there.

859
00:36:38,456 --> 00:36:38,656
Right.

860
00:36:38,876 --> 00:36:41,596
But it's like a new way to broadcast communicate.

861
00:36:42,016 --> 00:36:42,176
Yeah.

862
00:36:42,176 --> 00:36:46,016
And then over time, the New York Times says, actually, we better join Twitter and have an account.

863
00:36:46,556 --> 00:36:49,336
So it's kind of that same pattern seems to play out again and again.

864
00:36:49,876 --> 00:36:53,596
And the internet did it to media, but you're talking about how it probably gets done in the grid and energy.

865
00:36:53,996 --> 00:36:54,276
Yeah.

866
00:36:54,676 --> 00:36:57,336
So to your questions, I'll take them one by one.

867
00:36:58,996 --> 00:37:04,956
Has my views changed on what's going to be the, I forgot what you call it, but like the species, the lichen?

868
00:37:04,956 --> 00:37:13,856
well the the paper that we wrote four and a half years ago do you still hold that view yeah i do

869
00:37:13,856 --> 00:37:19,456
but i i think one thing i've changed my mind on one thing i've changed my mind on is i don't think

870
00:37:19,456 --> 00:37:25,156
at least in the short run bitcoin is going to be the biggest early adopting species um thank you

871
00:37:25,156 --> 00:37:32,576
i think it's going to be i think bitcoin will play a role in this um no maybe i mean to create a the

872
00:37:32,576 --> 00:37:40,516
most economical way to build out a new energy system, is your current thesis solar plus

873
00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:42,816
battery or solar plus battery plus Bitcoin?

874
00:37:43,176 --> 00:37:45,276
Because the paper four and a half years ago was all three.

875
00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:48,676
I think it is short, short term.

876
00:37:49,116 --> 00:37:50,636
I think this is changing still in real time.

877
00:37:50,716 --> 00:37:54,756
I don't think we're still at the point where solar plus Bitcoin plus battery fully pencils

878
00:37:54,756 --> 00:37:55,876
with the data center yet.

879
00:37:55,996 --> 00:38:00,016
But I do know one company where the founder will be speaking.

880
00:38:00,016 --> 00:38:08,056
uh it's not stushy it's another one um probably giving way too much information shit uh anyways

881
00:38:08,056 --> 00:38:13,876
i'm not gonna say but it's one of these two i know exactly uh but tells me that that's gonna

882
00:38:13,876 --> 00:38:19,296
happen the next year what's gonna happen that they're gonna there will be examples of totally

883
00:38:19,296 --> 00:38:26,436
off-grid solar plus storage plus completely depreciated s19 style like old asic miners and

884
00:38:26,436 --> 00:38:40,896
And that gets into a very interesting question because in order for that to work, you know, you basically, you either have to be okay running it less than 24-7 if you have the new generation miners because those are expensive, or you have to buy ones where the CapEx is effectively zero or super low because you've already depreciated them.

885
00:38:41,196 --> 00:38:42,476
So I think that's going to happen first.

886
00:38:42,896 --> 00:38:45,176
I do expect that to start happening in the next year or two.

887
00:38:45,436 --> 00:38:47,056
He might be a little overly bullish, maybe not.

888
00:38:47,056 --> 00:38:50,196
but I think that one thing I changed my view on is

889
00:38:50,196 --> 00:38:51,976
in the early days I thought Bitcoin would be

890
00:38:51,976 --> 00:38:54,936
that's the thing we go and we build new societies

891
00:38:54,936 --> 00:38:57,296
and civilizations around Bitcoin mining, maybe

892
00:38:57,296 --> 00:39:00,596
but I do feel much more confident

893
00:39:00,596 --> 00:39:02,996
that that first lichen species or whatever you want to call it

894
00:39:02,996 --> 00:39:04,116
is going to be at data centers

895
00:39:04,116 --> 00:39:08,456
so my view now is it's going to be

896
00:39:08,456 --> 00:39:11,616
these multi-gigawatt data centers

897
00:39:11,616 --> 00:39:12,736
as your first off-taker

898
00:39:12,736 --> 00:39:15,276
and then over time it's going to grow out

899
00:39:15,276 --> 00:39:20,176
And I actually think, you know, Bology's idea of the network state, maybe this is how the network

900
00:39:20,176 --> 00:39:25,636
state actually evolves, is like you build a giant ass data center in Abilene, okay? Now you have all

901
00:39:25,636 --> 00:39:29,776
this electricity. And because if you're doing another advantage of doing solar and storage is

902
00:39:29,776 --> 00:39:33,896
it's modular. If you do nuclear, you design it for years and that's, you know, it's a one gigawatt

903
00:39:33,896 --> 00:39:37,636
plant, that's what you get. Solar, you can just keep expanding, keep expanding. Solar and storage

904
00:39:37,636 --> 00:39:42,856
as you go from a gigawatt to 10 gigawatts to 100 gigawatts to a terawatt. And I think that basically

905
00:39:42,856 --> 00:39:46,536
we're going to see like new cities pop up around these data centers and bitcoin will definitely

906
00:39:46,536 --> 00:39:50,476
eventually be part of that and as it keeps getting cheaper and cheaper the old the miners and you

907
00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:55,176
know the price of bitcoin keeps going up it'll probably play more of a role where i see bitcoin

908
00:39:55,176 --> 00:40:01,456
playing a massive role in this vision are you all right make sure i got that out yes please

909
00:40:01,456 --> 00:40:08,656
thank you thank you um yeah that's good thank you is um i think it's going to be the bitcoin network

910
00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:14,236
more and more. I think the miners are certainly going to play a role, but I think that if you

911
00:40:14,236 --> 00:40:19,156
listen to this kind of crazy vision I'm talking about, if we build completely new grids, you need

912
00:40:19,156 --> 00:40:25,176
a way to do effectively super state settlement, supra state settlement, and effectively the way to

913
00:40:25,936 --> 00:40:33,936
meter electricity in real time. And so increasingly, I am extremely, extremely,

914
00:40:33,936 --> 00:40:41,296
extremely, extremely bullish on this future where you're in real time doing electrons for Bitcoin.

915
00:40:43,016 --> 00:40:49,616
And you can literally just meter that in real time. You know, so much of the failures of our grid,

916
00:40:50,116 --> 00:40:55,736
it's the same. Why do we have failures in banking? Why do we have failures in universities? Why do

917
00:40:55,736 --> 00:40:59,716
we have failures in home building? Why do we have failures in healthcare? Once you have a monopoly,

918
00:40:59,716 --> 00:41:07,956
innovation stops. You can't use the holy nature of prices, which is to bring in all these disparate

919
00:41:07,956 --> 00:41:13,076
pieces of information into one piece of information. Prices are magic. And this is why I effectively

920
00:41:13,076 --> 00:41:16,136
think Hayek was right. And by the way, in order to do this, you're going to need a sly roundabout

921
00:41:16,136 --> 00:41:20,036
way to build a new grid, just like you did to take money away from the monopoly there.

922
00:41:20,596 --> 00:41:23,296
And it's going to be much harder because we have to deal with atoms, not just bits. But

923
00:41:23,296 --> 00:41:30,176
what's missing is, you know, not only the infrastructure, but once you have new infrastructure

924
00:41:30,176 --> 00:41:34,156
and you can actually kind of build new rules. And again, I don't think the people like managing

925
00:41:34,156 --> 00:41:37,316
these are like evil or anything. I think it's just like, they have rules from like 1910.

926
00:41:37,576 --> 00:41:41,536
And like, turns out now we have the internet. Turns out now solar is really cheap. Turns out

927
00:41:41,536 --> 00:41:45,636
you have batteries now, which can arb in real time and batteries, you know, I'm increasingly

928
00:41:45,636 --> 00:41:49,056
thinking of as the high frequency traders of this whole world. So batteries I'm more and more and

929
00:41:49,056 --> 00:41:53,036
more and more and more bullish on. I would love to like back more battery companies that are

930
00:41:53,036 --> 00:42:00,096
building battery fleets, that's very viable. We should get battery people at the Type 1 Summit

931
00:42:00,096 --> 00:42:04,236
as well. Yeah, we should 100% get the best battery people. Michael Dell's kid is doing something

932
00:42:04,236 --> 00:42:10,056
fascinating. Fascinating. Genius, genius. He's basically doing what we used to do for solar

933
00:42:10,056 --> 00:42:14,576
when I was in ResiSolar, where we would finance the solar panels for you. You pay nothing up front

934
00:42:14,576 --> 00:42:17,956
or reduced up front, and then we take a cut of the savings. He's doing that for batteries and

935
00:42:17,956 --> 00:42:23,456
oversizing batteries in texas which allows them to basically build a giant sort of a virtual

936
00:42:23,456 --> 00:42:28,956
power plant more like a virtual battery where they can then interact with texas's best free

937
00:42:28,956 --> 00:42:43,372
market but even texas market is not nearly as good as it could be if you had real pricing for everyone and so anyways all that what the name of that company by the way remember i don remember Okay look it up Yeah I super long We should definitely get them there Super long

938
00:42:43,972 --> 00:42:45,272
I think Valor and Founders Fund

939
00:42:45,272 --> 00:42:45,592
and some others,

940
00:42:45,712 --> 00:42:46,932
I guess that's going to be a good one.

941
00:42:47,072 --> 00:42:47,172
Cool.

942
00:42:47,872 --> 00:42:48,272
Anyways,

943
00:42:48,652 --> 00:42:51,272
so what I see Bitcoin doing

944
00:42:51,272 --> 00:42:52,552
is enabling real-time markets.

945
00:42:53,632 --> 00:42:55,072
And I actually even see a world

946
00:42:55,072 --> 00:42:56,412
for the Nostra community,

947
00:42:56,652 --> 00:42:56,792
like,

948
00:42:57,212 --> 00:42:57,512
you know,

949
00:42:57,712 --> 00:42:58,552
there's so many problems,

950
00:42:58,612 --> 00:42:58,892
by the way,

951
00:42:58,892 --> 00:43:00,132
there's all these national security risks

952
00:43:00,132 --> 00:43:00,472
with the grid,

953
00:43:00,572 --> 00:43:01,432
like that's going to get hacked.

954
00:43:01,552 --> 00:43:02,452
That's going to be crazy

955
00:43:02,452 --> 00:43:03,652
even when grids start getting hacked.

956
00:43:03,752 --> 00:43:05,172
Maybe the Spain thing already was.

957
00:43:06,212 --> 00:43:08,152
And so with Nostra now,

958
00:43:08,292 --> 00:43:09,112
you could do something,

959
00:43:09,292 --> 00:43:10,512
and I'm not saying it's definitely gonna be Nostra,

960
00:43:10,632 --> 00:43:13,472
but Ben from EllenBits has been doing all this really cool,

961
00:43:13,632 --> 00:43:15,092
he's always doing the hardware tinkering,

962
00:43:15,532 --> 00:43:16,992
and he's already getting this idea

963
00:43:16,992 --> 00:43:19,652
of you could have every device have a Nostra identity.

964
00:43:19,792 --> 00:43:20,512
And that's really cool,

965
00:43:20,632 --> 00:43:22,832
because now you can imagine every load asset,

966
00:43:22,952 --> 00:43:24,632
every generation asset, every storage asset

967
00:43:24,632 --> 00:43:26,932
has a private key,

968
00:43:27,432 --> 00:43:28,352
and that's its identity,

969
00:43:28,572 --> 00:43:30,652
and it can then send messages back and forth to each other.

970
00:43:30,712 --> 00:43:32,212
And you can really, with Bitcoin,

971
00:43:32,212 --> 00:43:35,592
Lightning, whatever, ends up working with Lightning.

972
00:43:36,452 --> 00:43:41,412
And Nostra, the dream is to build a free market for electricity

973
00:43:41,412 --> 00:43:42,592
and internet of electricity.

974
00:43:43,172 --> 00:43:44,532
That's where I think Bitcoin's going to play the best role.

975
00:43:45,292 --> 00:43:45,372
Cool.

976
00:43:46,032 --> 00:43:51,712
By the way, I already got questions from people interested in Type 1 Summit.

977
00:43:52,032 --> 00:43:52,172
Yeah.

978
00:43:53,832 --> 00:43:56,172
And for those that aren't able to come,

979
00:43:57,312 --> 00:43:58,632
is anything going to be recorded?

980
00:43:58,632 --> 00:44:00,332
or do you think there'll be like a,

981
00:44:00,712 --> 00:44:04,912
some kind of published summary of what we discuss?

982
00:44:05,792 --> 00:44:06,412
Good question.

983
00:44:06,472 --> 00:44:07,312
I don't want to commit to that now

984
00:44:07,312 --> 00:44:08,152
because I haven't thought about it.

985
00:44:08,252 --> 00:44:11,732
And so what I will say is the goal at this point,

986
00:44:12,272 --> 00:44:14,252
and, you know, obviously this is a collaborative effort,

987
00:44:14,312 --> 00:44:15,312
so we should all figure this out together.

988
00:44:15,392 --> 00:44:16,052
I don't know.

989
00:44:16,412 --> 00:44:20,172
But I would say we should aim for doing,

990
00:44:20,312 --> 00:44:21,652
we're going to have some kind of more,

991
00:44:21,792 --> 00:44:22,872
you know, discussion,

992
00:44:23,012 --> 00:44:24,192
panel-y type things in the morning

993
00:44:24,192 --> 00:44:26,932
and probably live stream that or at least record it.

994
00:44:26,932 --> 00:44:30,192
and then the afternoon and evening, totally Chatham House.

995
00:44:30,592 --> 00:44:32,992
So if it's Chatham House, I mean, yeah,

996
00:44:33,032 --> 00:44:34,692
we'll have to see how much we want to summarize or not.

997
00:44:34,972 --> 00:44:35,992
Yeah, even in Chatham House,

998
00:44:36,392 --> 00:44:39,112
we could publish a report and just not-

999
00:44:39,112 --> 00:44:40,212
Not attribute it, yeah.

1000
00:44:41,072 --> 00:44:41,272
Okay.

1001
00:44:41,512 --> 00:44:42,352
And do you have a sense,

1002
00:44:43,352 --> 00:44:46,652
let's say we're sitting here the day after Type 1 Summit,

1003
00:44:46,772 --> 00:44:48,432
there's been tons of new ideas shared,

1004
00:44:48,612 --> 00:44:50,292
a lot of new connections made and relationships.

1005
00:44:50,932 --> 00:44:53,072
Is there sort of like a go-forward path?

1006
00:44:53,072 --> 00:44:55,212
Would there be a Type 1 Summit too,

1007
00:44:55,212 --> 00:44:57,532
or maybe a company or two that gets started from that?

1008
00:44:57,632 --> 00:44:58,992
Or like, do you have sort of a goal?

1009
00:44:59,312 --> 00:45:00,612
I have mind fund four.

1010
00:45:02,532 --> 00:45:03,372
Steve knows what it is.

1011
00:45:03,732 --> 00:45:04,412
Is that what it is?

1012
00:45:04,852 --> 00:45:05,212
Absolutely.

1013
00:45:05,532 --> 00:45:05,952
Oh, okay.

1014
00:45:06,392 --> 00:45:09,652
I mean, well, if we do a type two summit,

1015
00:45:09,812 --> 00:45:10,812
we'll have had to reach type one.

1016
00:45:10,812 --> 00:45:12,872
I'm in type one summit, part two.

1017
00:45:14,432 --> 00:45:15,372
I can't, I can't.

1018
00:45:16,892 --> 00:45:19,252
Yeah, I mean, I'm going into this with a very open mind.

1019
00:45:19,392 --> 00:45:21,732
Obviously, you know, one of my goals is

1020
00:45:21,732 --> 00:45:23,512
I want to fund some of the projects that come out of this.

1021
00:45:23,512 --> 00:45:27,432
And I've already, honestly, even just yesterday, we've already had, I think, four or five, like

1022
00:45:27,432 --> 00:45:30,472
I would consider, I don't know if they're elite level entrepreneurs yet, but at least

1023
00:45:30,472 --> 00:45:34,172
elite level thinkers, people I've been like following pretty obsessively, reach out.

1024
00:45:34,312 --> 00:45:35,692
I think we'll get a bunch of them to come here.

1025
00:45:36,172 --> 00:45:38,832
And I don't know which ones are going to be like, maybe some of them will team up.

1026
00:45:38,892 --> 00:45:40,812
Maybe some of them will, you know, I don't know.

1027
00:45:42,012 --> 00:45:44,172
So yeah, I would love to fund some of these.

1028
00:45:44,612 --> 00:45:49,612
And I would also love to help, you know, I have relatively small funds, so it'd be great

1029
00:45:49,612 --> 00:45:52,072
to get some of the bigger funds and the infrastructure fund guys here as well.

1030
00:45:52,072 --> 00:45:57,192
We're hoping to get, we'd love to get folks from places like TPG and Blue Owl and all these.

1031
00:45:57,672 --> 00:46:06,832
And like, you know, it'd be cool if like maybe we help, you know, at the early stages and they can actually make this like a reality with like kinds of capital that, you know, it's like tens of billions of dollars.

1032
00:46:07,332 --> 00:46:08,012
But yeah, I don't know.

1033
00:46:08,032 --> 00:46:10,152
I'm very open-minded and like who knows what's going to come out of it.

1034
00:46:10,332 --> 00:46:11,192
I like that.

1035
00:46:11,272 --> 00:46:13,912
Just like explore the possibilities and see what kind of magic.

1036
00:46:14,232 --> 00:46:18,852
And for those listening interested, what's the URL for the website type?

1037
00:46:18,852 --> 00:46:23,712
So type1summit.org, and one is a numeral.

1038
00:46:23,952 --> 00:46:27,172
So type number one, type1summit.org.

1039
00:46:27,492 --> 00:46:29,392
Do you want to read my essay, which talks more about it?

1040
00:46:29,432 --> 00:46:32,372
I think it's linked on there, but hivemind.vc slash grid.

1041
00:46:32,992 --> 00:46:35,472
And people can apply to participate?

1042
00:46:35,472 --> 00:46:37,012
Yes, so we should talk about that.

1043
00:46:37,092 --> 00:46:39,152
I mean, I would love to have as many people as possible.

1044
00:46:39,492 --> 00:46:42,172
I do think, honestly, just from feedback yesterday,

1045
00:46:42,172 --> 00:46:44,492
I think this is going to like oversubscribe super, super fast.

1046
00:46:44,492 --> 00:46:51,292
so um yeah i mean definitely apply if you're interested i mean um we're gonna have super

1047
00:46:51,292 --> 00:46:55,172
limited space because we want to keep this really tight and you know encourage as much conversation

1048
00:46:55,172 --> 00:46:59,792
the chatham house but we need to figure that out i would love to to get more people involved um but

1049
00:46:59,792 --> 00:47:04,812
um yeah like i don't know to tell us what you want to contribute what you hope to get out of it those

1050
00:47:04,812 --> 00:47:08,092
are some of the questions uh if you have a contrarian take on the future of electricity

1051
00:47:08,092 --> 00:47:11,172
we're interested in hearing that and yeah i don't know i guess we'll probably work as a group to

1052
00:47:11,172 --> 00:47:13,332
figure out who comes.

1053
00:47:13,532 --> 00:47:15,512
We also talked about different types of people

1054
00:47:15,512 --> 00:47:17,112
we'd love to have here

1055
00:47:17,112 --> 00:47:19,032
to make it a richer experience.

1056
00:47:19,252 --> 00:47:22,252
So we'll get to work on our own networks,

1057
00:47:22,372 --> 00:47:24,352
but if people listening know folks

1058
00:47:24,352 --> 00:47:25,892
at the big tech companies

1059
00:47:25,892 --> 00:47:27,832
that work on infrastructure

1060
00:47:27,832 --> 00:47:30,252
or energy data centers,

1061
00:47:30,472 --> 00:47:31,592
that would be...

1062
00:47:31,592 --> 00:47:31,972
Super helpful.

1063
00:47:32,572 --> 00:47:34,612
Helpful, and who else did we name?

1064
00:47:34,732 --> 00:47:35,912
The big project finance shops,

1065
00:47:36,032 --> 00:47:37,432
the people that are financing the big,

1066
00:47:37,552 --> 00:47:39,192
you know, TPGs, Blue Owls of the world.

1067
00:47:39,332 --> 00:47:39,752
Mm-hmm, yeah.

1068
00:47:40,272 --> 00:47:40,492
Okay.

1069
00:47:40,992 --> 00:47:41,192
Great.

1070
00:47:41,672 --> 00:47:41,832
Cool.

1071
00:47:42,092 --> 00:47:43,792
One thing we maybe should have mentioned at the beginning,

1072
00:47:43,872 --> 00:47:45,032
we didn't talk about our sign.

1073
00:47:45,072 --> 00:47:45,412
Oh, yeah.

1074
00:47:45,552 --> 00:47:46,012
Oh, yeah.

1075
00:47:46,032 --> 00:47:46,692
That was about the sign.

1076
00:47:46,692 --> 00:47:47,512
Speaking of electricity.

1077
00:47:48,112 --> 00:47:48,932
And construction.

1078
00:47:49,152 --> 00:47:50,752
Well, I'm not the expert on the sign.

1079
00:47:51,052 --> 00:47:51,952
There's a new sign.

1080
00:47:52,052 --> 00:47:52,792
People can see that.

1081
00:47:53,192 --> 00:47:54,892
It's partially working.

1082
00:47:55,952 --> 00:47:58,332
So it makes you look kind of like a Christ figure.

1083
00:47:58,672 --> 00:47:59,232
There's a...

1084
00:47:59,232 --> 00:48:00,372
Sort of have a halo around you.

1085
00:48:01,032 --> 00:48:02,512
So it's super cool neon sign.

1086
00:48:02,752 --> 00:48:03,292
This is the new Satoshi.

1087
00:48:04,252 --> 00:48:05,272
Custom design, right?

1088
00:48:05,412 --> 00:48:05,872
It's dope.

1089
00:48:05,872 --> 00:48:07,872
I don't know if it's...

1090
00:48:07,872 --> 00:48:08,632
Yeah.

1091
00:48:08,632 --> 00:48:11,252
Down here, that's where you can turn it on.

1092
00:48:11,512 --> 00:48:12,332
There's two boxes.

1093
00:48:13,192 --> 00:48:16,152
You notice the middle PB is not lit up.

1094
00:48:16,692 --> 00:48:18,992
We discovered a mosquito that got fried.

1095
00:48:19,572 --> 00:48:20,352
A literal bug.

1096
00:48:20,552 --> 00:48:20,872
Yes.

1097
00:48:21,612 --> 00:48:24,352
And it apparently caused it to stop working.

1098
00:48:24,572 --> 00:48:27,252
So we have to debug our bug problem.

1099
00:48:27,452 --> 00:48:30,772
Which, by the way, I learned recently that's the reason we say debug in computers, too.

1100
00:48:31,252 --> 00:48:33,632
The old days when we had the tape recorder stuff.

1101
00:48:33,812 --> 00:48:35,392
It was like a moth, I think, right?

1102
00:48:35,392 --> 00:48:37,152
I think the original bug was a moth.

1103
00:48:37,272 --> 00:48:38,452
It made its way in.

1104
00:48:38,632 --> 00:48:41,852
Anyway, so we're proud of our sign, but it's only partially working.

1105
00:48:41,992 --> 00:48:44,752
Hopefully we get it in working order by next week.

1106
00:48:44,772 --> 00:48:45,512
It's pretty fucking sick.

1107
00:48:45,632 --> 00:48:47,552
Shout out to Alex, who I guess thought of this.

1108
00:48:47,692 --> 00:48:49,732
Like, this is cool.

1109
00:48:50,232 --> 00:48:51,892
And I like that we got real neon.

1110
00:48:52,572 --> 00:48:55,052
It also took like 10 hours to install.

1111
00:48:55,132 --> 00:48:55,312
Yeah.

1112
00:48:55,432 --> 00:48:55,952
Yeah, it was crazy.

1113
00:48:55,952 --> 00:48:56,492
It was no joke.

1114
00:48:56,812 --> 00:48:57,412
It was no joke.

1115
00:48:57,592 --> 00:48:58,512
But it looks very nice.

1116
00:48:58,972 --> 00:48:59,072
Yeah.

1117
00:48:59,232 --> 00:49:00,272
There's like paint involved.

1118
00:49:00,412 --> 00:49:01,852
I mean, there's like actual neon gas.

1119
00:49:03,252 --> 00:49:08,412
So Max, you also wanted to talk about the flipping.

1120
00:49:08,632 --> 00:49:08,892
Oh, yeah.

1121
00:49:09,372 --> 00:49:10,032
A flippening.

1122
00:49:10,272 --> 00:49:10,472
Yes.

1123
00:49:10,652 --> 00:49:11,632
A new type of flippening.

1124
00:49:11,692 --> 00:49:12,212
A new flippening.

1125
00:49:12,792 --> 00:49:13,412
Tell us about it.

1126
00:49:13,972 --> 00:49:17,232
Oh, well, I mean, my thinking about this came from a couple of different places.

1127
00:49:17,512 --> 00:49:22,792
You know, I briefly scrolled through a couple of the talks from the last Bitcoin conference.

1128
00:49:23,912 --> 00:49:26,172
And, you know, I briefly scrolled through Bology.

1129
00:49:26,272 --> 00:49:28,232
I think Bology has a lot of good ideas.

1130
00:49:29,272 --> 00:49:31,012
Scriptiveness aside, I think he has a lot of good ideas.

1131
00:49:31,652 --> 00:49:34,692
And one of them, I hadn't thought of this yet.

1132
00:49:34,692 --> 00:49:36,152
I guess I have kind of informally thought of this.

1133
00:49:36,152 --> 00:49:37,572
and we've sort of mentioned this in the show,

1134
00:49:37,652 --> 00:49:39,272
but it just really crystallized it for me,

1135
00:49:39,272 --> 00:49:40,852
was based on some, I guess,

1136
00:49:40,932 --> 00:49:43,932
numbering some data that they crunched at Coinbase,

1137
00:49:44,692 --> 00:49:46,672
his guess was that, you know,

1138
00:49:46,732 --> 00:49:48,452
the total number of billionaires in the world,

1139
00:49:48,592 --> 00:49:49,932
which I think he shares like 3,000,

1140
00:49:50,052 --> 00:49:51,492
something like that, that we know of,

1141
00:49:51,892 --> 00:49:55,212
is, you know, basically once Bitcoin,

1142
00:49:55,392 --> 00:49:56,892
somewhere between $100,000 a coin

1143
00:49:56,892 --> 00:49:57,852
and a million dollars a coin,

1144
00:49:57,932 --> 00:49:59,072
we have a flippening where the majority

1145
00:49:59,072 --> 00:50:00,672
of the world's billionaires are Bitcoiners.

1146
00:50:01,292 --> 00:50:03,532
And that's very interesting for a number of reasons.

1147
00:50:03,532 --> 00:50:06,752
one of the reasons it's very interesting to me

1148
00:50:06,752 --> 00:50:08,992
in relationship to the type 1 summit

1149
00:50:08,992 --> 00:50:11,952
in relationship to a prior PBJ episode

1150
00:50:11,952 --> 00:50:14,992
where we discussed building an open source foundational model

1151
00:50:14,992 --> 00:50:17,212
and also inspired last night

1152
00:50:17,212 --> 00:50:18,472
as so many things are for me

1153
00:50:18,472 --> 00:50:21,532
in a great spontaneous sauna conversation

1154
00:50:21,532 --> 00:50:24,152
is I was talking for someone working at one of these HCI companies

1155
00:50:24,152 --> 00:50:25,912
the human computer interface

1156
00:50:25,912 --> 00:50:27,112
basically like Neuralink

1157
00:50:27,112 --> 00:50:28,172
like putting a chip in your brain

1158
00:50:28,172 --> 00:50:31,592
and increasingly coming away from that conversation

1159
00:50:31,592 --> 00:50:37,512
I was one more excited about learning about, you know, this, uh, the singularity, uh, the

1160
00:50:37,512 --> 00:50:38,652
fusion or whatever you want to call it.

1161
00:50:39,352 --> 00:50:41,112
But I left just like terrified.

1162
00:50:41,992 --> 00:50:45,712
I was already scared, but now I'm like, oh man, like as much as I love the compute and

1163
00:50:45,712 --> 00:50:47,692
the solar and money, like, that's all great.

1164
00:50:47,752 --> 00:50:48,872
And we need to fix that first.

1165
00:50:48,872 --> 00:50:53,152
Like there's so many, again, like if I could go back to what I was saying earlier, so many

1166
00:50:53,152 --> 00:50:55,892
incentive structures in our world that are just broken and we have the tools with Bitcoin

1167
00:50:55,892 --> 00:50:58,672
with NOS for all this stuff to like fix it in a way that you don't have a corporation

1168
00:50:58,672 --> 00:50:59,572
or government.

1169
00:50:59,572 --> 00:51:02,012
And I just think that corporations and nations are just outdated structures.

1170
00:51:02,252 --> 00:51:03,632
Like, they're not bad.

1171
00:51:03,712 --> 00:51:04,172
They're not evil.

1172
00:51:04,292 --> 00:51:08,252
It's just they had their own in the 20th century, and now it's time for internet native stuff.

1173
00:51:08,912 --> 00:51:12,592
And hearing him say all this, I was like, man, there is – and I get the people that

1174
00:51:12,592 --> 00:51:16,352
they and Neuralink and others are putting chips for now are people that are paralyzed.

1175
00:51:16,472 --> 00:51:20,332
And yeah, if you're paralyzed, totally makes – the risk tradeoff makes it totally worth

1176
00:51:20,332 --> 00:51:20,452
it.

1177
00:51:20,472 --> 00:51:24,252
But like, would you guys put a random chip, even from someone like Elon in your head?

1178
00:51:24,632 --> 00:51:25,272
I wouldn't.

1179
00:51:25,452 --> 00:51:25,792
No way.

1180
00:51:26,132 --> 00:51:27,372
Absolutely no fucking way on this.

1181
00:51:27,372 --> 00:51:28,912
Like, no fucking way.

1182
00:51:28,912 --> 00:51:35,692
and but at the other hand it's kind of like ai future generations might yeah say yes easily well

1183
00:51:35,692 --> 00:51:39,112
maybe but but but here's the thing it's not that i i want to be clear it's not that i wouldn't put

1184
00:51:39,112 --> 00:51:43,832
a chip in my brain it's that i wouldn't put a chip in my brain closed source from a company

1185
00:51:43,832 --> 00:51:49,852
or government that i can't audit and know what the hell is going on yep and so yeah the more i was

1186
00:51:49,852 --> 00:51:53,892
talking about this the more i was like oh man like it's like ai when we talked about the open

1187
00:51:53,892 --> 00:51:58,392
source stuff it's like i don't want to be left behind you know i want to have the superpowers

1188
00:51:58,392 --> 00:51:59,652
that come with being transhuman

1189
00:51:59,652 --> 00:52:00,872
or whatever you want to call it.

1190
00:52:01,192 --> 00:52:02,272
But like, I'm just not,

1191
00:52:02,372 --> 00:52:04,412
I just never would put a company in my head,

1192
00:52:04,572 --> 00:52:05,572
no matter who the company is.

1193
00:52:05,792 --> 00:52:08,652
Have you seen the Black Mirror episode about this?

1194
00:52:08,752 --> 00:52:08,932
No.

1195
00:52:09,332 --> 00:52:10,812
There's a great Black Mirror episode

1196
00:52:10,812 --> 00:52:12,092
that walks through this.

1197
00:52:12,892 --> 00:52:15,532
I'll fail to get the exact details right,

1198
00:52:15,572 --> 00:52:16,552
but there's some sort of,

1199
00:52:16,832 --> 00:52:17,992
I think there was some sort of injury

1200
00:52:17,992 --> 00:52:19,412
that this woman had

1201
00:52:19,412 --> 00:52:21,692
and there was one way to save her life.

1202
00:52:21,772 --> 00:52:23,872
She was on the operating room about to die

1203
00:52:23,872 --> 00:52:25,572
and they asked her husband,

1204
00:52:25,772 --> 00:52:26,792
well, hey, we have this new startup

1205
00:52:26,792 --> 00:52:29,112
that claims they can solve this thing.

1206
00:52:29,432 --> 00:52:29,912
Should we try?

1207
00:52:30,232 --> 00:52:32,832
And she was basically on her deathbed.

1208
00:52:33,332 --> 00:52:34,412
And he said, yeah, sure, go for it.

1209
00:52:34,532 --> 00:52:35,352
And then they did it.

1210
00:52:35,432 --> 00:52:36,892
And then they walked through and they're like,

1211
00:52:37,652 --> 00:52:39,392
oh, we have an expansion pack available.

1212
00:52:39,452 --> 00:52:40,172
Would you like to buy that?

1213
00:52:40,612 --> 00:52:42,272
Like, well, no, I'd rather not.

1214
00:52:42,272 --> 00:52:45,232
And then she sort of has Tourette's or something weird.

1215
00:52:45,372 --> 00:52:47,852
And then like, actually, you can buy the expansion pack

1216
00:52:47,852 --> 00:52:48,472
and that'll fix it.

1217
00:52:48,672 --> 00:52:52,352
And so you see this little boiling the frog,

1218
00:52:52,732 --> 00:52:54,192
and then it gets to be the point

1219
00:52:54,192 --> 00:52:56,172
where she's like totally dependent on this corporation.

1220
00:52:56,172 --> 00:52:58,872
and there's no real alternative option.

1221
00:52:59,732 --> 00:53:01,972
And I think it's, you know, like a lot of Black Mirror,

1222
00:53:02,312 --> 00:53:07,492
it's like both near and familiar and very likely in a sense

1223
00:53:07,492 --> 00:53:11,912
unless you take explicit choices to opt out or to shape

1224
00:53:11,912 --> 00:53:14,792
or change the incentives for kind of how it works.

1225
00:53:15,372 --> 00:53:19,672
It's a worthwhile view if you're thinking about getting a chip implanted.

1226
00:53:20,792 --> 00:53:22,732
I'm not thinking about getting a chip implanted.

1227
00:53:22,932 --> 00:53:23,472
Not now.

1228
00:53:23,732 --> 00:53:24,752
Maybe if there's an open source one.

1229
00:53:24,772 --> 00:53:25,312
You were before.

1230
00:53:25,312 --> 00:53:29,632
I don't like kings and masters

1231
00:53:29,632 --> 00:53:31,432
and I don't like people controlling my thoughts.

1232
00:53:32,332 --> 00:53:33,112
Chips in your brain.

1233
00:53:33,232 --> 00:53:33,992
Not for me.

1234
00:53:34,132 --> 00:53:34,512
Not for you.

1235
00:53:35,112 --> 00:53:37,152
Well, anyways, so I agree with you.

1236
00:53:37,352 --> 00:53:39,072
The TLDR is I want an open source version.

1237
00:53:39,212 --> 00:53:41,032
I'm open to exploring this in the future

1238
00:53:41,032 --> 00:53:43,892
after they've had decades of figuring this out or whatever.

1239
00:53:44,452 --> 00:53:46,272
But I would only consider if it was open source.

1240
00:53:46,452 --> 00:53:47,452
And so I asked this guy, I'm like,

1241
00:53:47,472 --> 00:53:48,432
how much money would you need?

1242
00:53:48,552 --> 00:53:49,552
I was like, well, you guys open source?

1243
00:53:49,652 --> 00:53:50,652
He's like, I'm just a software engineer.

1244
00:53:50,652 --> 00:53:51,892
I don't know.

1245
00:53:52,012 --> 00:53:53,552
He's like, sounds cool, but they need to make money.

1246
00:53:53,552 --> 00:53:55,712
and so maybe Elon will do it again

1247
00:53:55,712 --> 00:53:57,272
with Elon you're rolling the dice like

1248
00:53:57,272 --> 00:53:59,892
he could just go totally like he did with Tesla

1249
00:53:59,892 --> 00:54:01,852
patents and open source reports but again you never want

1250
00:54:01,852 --> 00:54:04,012
to just like depend I mean who knows

1251
00:54:04,012 --> 00:54:05,872
right and Elon may not be here in the future

1252
00:54:05,872 --> 00:54:07,872
right so he's like here's a self-driving

1253
00:54:07,872 --> 00:54:09,512
car you can drive yourself like

1254
00:54:09,512 --> 00:54:11,612
that's not what I had in mind

1255
00:54:11,612 --> 00:54:13,052
DK is more skeptical but

1256
00:54:13,052 --> 00:54:15,712
regardless my broader point is you don't want to be

1257
00:54:15,712 --> 00:54:17,612
dependent on any centralized entity

1258
00:54:17,612 --> 00:54:19,092
to put a chip in your brain all stop

1259
00:54:19,092 --> 00:54:21,532
but you also don't want to be left behind because then you're gonna be like

1260
00:54:21,532 --> 00:54:25,532
like an aborigine when everyone else is off like you know going to mars and stuff so which is not

1261
00:54:25,532 --> 00:54:29,852
necessarily bad and maybe i don't mind that actually yeah actually maybe maybe that's the

1262
00:54:29,852 --> 00:54:34,352
trade-offs i think i'll take that one given the current traps but again we could imagine a better

1263
00:54:34,352 --> 00:54:38,732
world and so i was asking well how much money do you think roughly if you had to guess what it take

1264
00:54:38,732 --> 00:54:43,092
to develop a product that you could bring to market because i don't know 50 to 100 million

1265
00:54:43,092 --> 00:54:47,052
dollars so i was like i mean it sounds like a lot but it's not that much in the grand scheme of

1266
00:54:47,052 --> 00:54:51,072
things and then that's when i started thinking i was like you know what maybe the biggest legacy

1267
00:54:51,072 --> 00:54:52,872
of Bitcoin really is going to be

1268
00:54:52,872 --> 00:54:54,292
that some of these people get

1269
00:54:54,292 --> 00:54:55,772
that still have cypherpunk values,

1270
00:54:55,872 --> 00:54:57,032
that still care about human freedom,

1271
00:54:57,152 --> 00:54:58,252
that still want the light of consciousness

1272
00:54:58,252 --> 00:54:59,052
to shine on,

1273
00:54:59,392 --> 00:55:01,072
that are not completely jaded and nihilistic.

1274
00:55:01,572 --> 00:55:03,412
Maybe the biggest legacy of Bitcoin

1275
00:55:03,412 --> 00:55:04,512
is they're just going to fund

1276
00:55:04,512 --> 00:55:05,772
all of these projects,

1277
00:55:05,892 --> 00:55:06,732
maybe for profit,

1278
00:55:06,872 --> 00:55:08,752
maybe as kind of like cathedral style,

1279
00:55:08,752 --> 00:55:11,252
just like giving back to humanity.

1280
00:55:12,112 --> 00:55:13,992
And yeah, I thought about it.

1281
00:55:14,052 --> 00:55:14,872
The open source model,

1282
00:55:14,992 --> 00:55:15,472
that's important,

1283
00:55:15,532 --> 00:55:16,532
but this is even more important.

1284
00:55:17,132 --> 00:55:17,532
And I was thinking,

1285
00:55:17,672 --> 00:55:18,872
could I back this out of high minds?

1286
00:55:18,932 --> 00:55:20,352
I'm probably too early for that right now.

1287
00:55:20,352 --> 00:55:22,052
and you did way more capital than we have.

1288
00:55:22,672 --> 00:55:24,912
But could a bunch of Bitcoin billionaires

1289
00:55:24,912 --> 00:55:26,112
who care about human freedom come up?

1290
00:55:26,232 --> 00:55:28,232
Okay, we're going to start working way ahead of time

1291
00:55:28,232 --> 00:55:29,492
on the open source Neuralink.

1292
00:55:30,232 --> 00:55:30,632
Yeah.

1293
00:55:31,252 --> 00:55:32,512
Yeah, I think that's a good...

1294
00:55:32,512 --> 00:55:35,352
I mean, we're working out of a studio right now

1295
00:55:35,352 --> 00:55:38,312
courtesy of two wealthy Bitcoin holders.

1296
00:55:38,612 --> 00:55:38,972
Yeah, thanks, guys.

1297
00:55:39,212 --> 00:55:39,592
Thank you.

1298
00:55:39,592 --> 00:55:40,912
Thank you, Wensis, and thank you, Mark.

1299
00:55:41,752 --> 00:55:43,772
All the procedure of Bitcoin is funded by them.

1300
00:55:45,112 --> 00:55:48,152
Or not all now, because we do have 25 paying members,

1301
00:55:48,152 --> 00:55:50,372
which helps defray the cost.

1302
00:55:50,472 --> 00:55:52,072
But still, the majority of the costs are funded by them.

1303
00:55:53,192 --> 00:55:56,392
So that's just like a small example of what can come.

1304
00:55:57,272 --> 00:55:59,472
And it does seem like I did, I ran the,

1305
00:55:59,912 --> 00:56:03,672
I didn't watch Balashie's talk on this,

1306
00:56:03,812 --> 00:56:05,692
but I just did my own quick math.

1307
00:56:06,052 --> 00:56:07,592
Looks like 3,000 billionaires.

1308
00:56:07,972 --> 00:56:10,292
So to flip that, there needs to be 3,000.

1309
00:56:10,752 --> 00:56:15,152
I think a million dollar Bitcoin gets us there.

1310
00:56:15,292 --> 00:56:16,712
I don't know about $100,000, but.

1311
00:56:16,712 --> 00:56:23,812
And as it gets there, does that mean there's $3,000 or 3,000 people who have about a billion dollars worth of purchasing power?

1312
00:56:24,212 --> 00:56:24,552
Yes.

1313
00:56:24,952 --> 00:56:30,732
So if we assume none of the current billionaires have Bitcoin, then it would flip.

1314
00:56:30,812 --> 00:56:36,092
It would flip earlier, sooner if some of them are, obviously some of them already have Bitcoin.

1315
00:56:36,152 --> 00:56:38,712
And to be clear, we're not saying all 3,000, 1,500 to get 51%.

1316
00:56:38,712 --> 00:56:39,232
1%.

1317
00:56:39,232 --> 00:56:42,852
Presumably as Bitcoin is growing to be

1318
00:56:42,852 --> 00:56:44,852
worth a million

1319
00:56:44,852 --> 00:56:45,832
dollars per Bitcoin,

1320
00:56:46,332 --> 00:56:47,672
even if the existing

1321
00:56:47,672 --> 00:56:50,772
billionaires in US dollar terms don't

1322
00:56:50,772 --> 00:56:52,052
hold any Bitcoin, presumably

1323
00:56:52,052 --> 00:56:54,792
they're starting to buy some during that

1324
00:56:54,792 --> 00:56:56,772
process, but they also continue to hold

1325
00:56:56,772 --> 00:56:57,412
USD assets.

1326
00:56:57,852 --> 00:57:00,492
In the extreme case,

1327
00:57:00,712 --> 00:57:02,432
none of the existing 3,000

1328
00:57:02,432 --> 00:57:04,032
ever have Bitcoin.

1329
00:57:04,992 --> 00:57:06,592
We would need 3,000

1330
00:57:06,592 --> 00:57:08,692
Bitcoin billionaires to flip

1331
00:57:08,712 --> 00:57:10,852
and what is the folding?

1332
00:57:10,852 --> 00:57:12,072
I'm saying you only need half now

1333
00:57:12,072 --> 00:57:13,772
to be 51%.

1334
00:57:13,772 --> 00:57:16,852
No, because if you have 1,500,

1335
00:57:17,812 --> 00:57:18,812
then you only have a third

1336
00:57:18,812 --> 00:57:19,972
of the billionaires.

1337
00:57:20,112 --> 00:57:20,852
I think so there's 3,000.

1338
00:57:21,032 --> 00:57:22,592
There are 3,000 today.

1339
00:57:22,752 --> 00:57:23,952
Assume they just sit statically.

1340
00:57:23,952 --> 00:57:24,772
Oh, got it, got it.

1341
00:57:24,832 --> 00:57:25,912
Meaning that 3,000

1342
00:57:25,912 --> 00:57:27,092
people should be added.

1343
00:57:27,952 --> 00:57:29,392
Depends on how fast we hyperinflate.

1344
00:57:30,312 --> 00:57:33,692
Anyway, to me, it's inevitable.

1345
00:57:34,012 --> 00:57:35,572
Bitcoin is going to get to a million dollars.

1346
00:57:35,572 --> 00:57:38,932
there will be a flip.

1347
00:57:39,732 --> 00:57:39,832
Yeah.

1348
00:57:40,192 --> 00:57:41,472
I kind of like the flip.

1349
00:57:41,792 --> 00:57:42,212
The flip?

1350
00:57:43,112 --> 00:57:43,592
The flip.

1351
00:57:44,012 --> 00:57:44,632
Team flip.

1352
00:57:44,892 --> 00:57:49,272
And when do you, I mean, what do you think the,

1353
00:57:49,472 --> 00:57:50,792
like, I think there's like,

1354
00:57:50,852 --> 00:57:53,012
what do existing billionaires do with that wealth?

1355
00:57:53,232 --> 00:57:56,032
And then what would Bitcoin billionaires,

1356
00:57:56,572 --> 00:57:57,712
would it look very similar?

1357
00:57:57,872 --> 00:57:59,612
Would it look pretty different in some ways?

1358
00:57:59,632 --> 00:58:00,212
Like you mentioned,

1359
00:58:00,612 --> 00:58:02,172
funding Neuralink or an open source model.

1360
00:58:02,812 --> 00:58:04,312
Well, one concern I'd have,

1361
00:58:04,312 --> 00:58:09,212
just looking at the amount of donations now

1362
00:58:09,212 --> 00:58:11,272
from wealthy Bitcoiners,

1363
00:58:11,392 --> 00:58:13,432
I think it's quite poor.

1364
00:58:14,872 --> 00:58:15,872
It's just like a few.

1365
00:58:16,312 --> 00:58:17,492
It's a few, right?

1366
00:58:17,712 --> 00:58:18,612
They're doing a lot of lifting.

1367
00:58:19,092 --> 00:58:22,532
Wentz has done a lot over time,

1368
00:58:22,912 --> 00:58:24,512
and Mark more recently.

1369
00:58:25,472 --> 00:58:27,552
John Pfeffer has done a lot.

1370
00:58:27,552 --> 00:58:28,512
Yeah, shout out to John.

1371
00:58:30,972 --> 00:58:33,592
Michael Saylor's funded certain things too.

1372
00:58:33,592 --> 00:58:35,912
But it's a short list.

1373
00:58:37,172 --> 00:58:38,872
So it's a small percentage of...

1374
00:58:38,872 --> 00:58:39,972
Jack is funding like half of everything.

1375
00:58:40,352 --> 00:58:44,392
Yeah, it's a small percentage of Bitcoin whales

1376
00:58:44,392 --> 00:58:48,192
and a small percentage of, quote, available funds.

1377
00:58:48,452 --> 00:58:51,212
Like, you know, that gets into a philosophical discussion.

1378
00:58:51,532 --> 00:58:55,692
But so I don't know how much that will change.

1379
00:58:56,112 --> 00:58:59,472
And then for those that do donate,

1380
00:59:00,012 --> 00:59:01,972
yeah, that gets to your question of like,

1381
00:59:01,972 --> 00:59:06,372
do they fund different initiatives

1382
00:59:06,372 --> 00:59:08,032
than have been done historically

1383
00:59:08,032 --> 00:59:10,712
because maybe it skews libertarians,

1384
00:59:10,992 --> 00:59:12,212
skews cyberpunk.

1385
00:59:12,652 --> 00:59:13,772
Maybe skews open source.

1386
00:59:14,052 --> 00:59:15,052
Maybe skews open source.

1387
00:59:15,072 --> 00:59:15,772
Skews more digital.

1388
00:59:16,432 --> 00:59:17,352
Skews more digital.

1389
00:59:17,612 --> 00:59:20,752
So that seems very plausible.

1390
00:59:21,932 --> 00:59:26,252
And then do they structure it differently

1391
00:59:26,252 --> 00:59:27,072
than historically,

1392
00:59:27,272 --> 00:59:29,072
like for-profit versus non-profit

1393
00:59:29,072 --> 00:59:30,332
or something new.

1394
00:59:30,332 --> 00:59:37,272
dows or something i don't know i wonder if some of the you know limitation in choice is sort of

1395
00:59:37,272 --> 00:59:42,492
once you understand bitcoin and you understand kind of it's going up forever it's harder to say

1396
00:59:42,492 --> 00:59:49,932
look i'm gonna donate to a place that may not have that same belief and they might sell it to

1397
00:59:49,932 --> 00:59:55,232
try to fund operations and it might get a little bit off the rails versus if i wait 10 years and

1398
00:59:55,232 --> 01:00:03,452
then i do it i can actually you know make a bigger impact do more and i don't have the risk of people

1399
01:00:03,452 --> 01:00:07,932
kind of like selling early to convert to some project which may not quite so i wonder if people

1400
01:00:07,932 --> 01:00:12,812
become like more generous as that price rises in a sense well you can also just lock it up

1401
01:00:12,812 --> 01:00:22,592
you can lock it up and then they'd be forced to um take out bitcoin back loans right but retain

1402
01:00:22,592 --> 01:00:24,472
their Bitcoin. Or you could, could you even

1403
01:00:24,472 --> 01:00:26,612
do like HTLCs to time lock it

1404
01:00:26,612 --> 01:00:28,532
to a future point? Or like

1405
01:00:28,532 --> 01:00:30,612
dole it out over, like you almost set a

1406
01:00:30,612 --> 01:00:32,592
budget and dole it out?

1407
01:00:32,932 --> 01:00:34,552
I wouldn't use HTLCs, but yes.

1408
01:00:34,552 --> 01:00:35,052
Okay, sorry.

1409
01:00:36,232 --> 01:00:36,812
Watch out.

1410
01:00:38,312 --> 01:00:39,712
DK's getting into the Bitcoin technical.

1411
01:00:42,712 --> 01:00:44,472
But yeah, so I think, you know,

1412
01:00:44,692 --> 01:00:46,112
interesting structures like that, like

1413
01:00:46,112 --> 01:00:48,312
programmable, like let's use programmable money.

1414
01:00:48,312 --> 01:00:48,672
Yeah.

1415
01:00:50,332 --> 01:00:52,212
Yep, so that's like

1416
01:00:52,592 --> 01:00:53,972
under-discussed.

1417
01:00:54,652 --> 01:00:55,772
I'm glad you brought that up.

1418
01:00:56,212 --> 01:00:57,352
And it's also because you can imagine

1419
01:00:57,352 --> 01:00:58,152
the structure's changing.

1420
01:00:58,332 --> 01:00:59,552
Maybe the reality is

1421
01:00:59,552 --> 01:01:01,452
some of these things are effectively public goods.

1422
01:01:01,752 --> 01:01:03,232
And frankly, this is what the government should be doing.

1423
01:01:03,432 --> 01:01:05,292
One day we'll have an effective government again

1424
01:01:05,292 --> 01:01:06,172
and they'll be doing that.

1425
01:01:06,512 --> 01:01:08,172
But maybe you basically need generous donors

1426
01:01:08,172 --> 01:01:10,592
that skew open source, skew ProFreedom

1427
01:01:10,592 --> 01:01:11,752
to get it started.

1428
01:01:11,892 --> 01:01:13,352
But you could also be a hybrid structure

1429
01:01:13,352 --> 01:01:14,052
where it's like, okay,

1430
01:01:14,172 --> 01:01:15,752
but then it becomes a company, right?

1431
01:01:15,772 --> 01:01:17,212
Because one of my theses is that,

1432
01:01:17,552 --> 01:01:17,992
like imagine,

1433
01:01:18,152 --> 01:01:19,352
and I would love to fund this out of HighMind,

1434
01:01:19,412 --> 01:01:20,072
it's probably way too early,

1435
01:01:20,132 --> 01:01:21,872
but imagine you had an open source competitor

1436
01:01:21,872 --> 01:01:24,132
and the human brain interface,

1437
01:01:24,472 --> 01:01:25,672
there's a lot of people that are going to be like,

1438
01:01:25,712 --> 01:01:26,692
yeah, I'll do it,

1439
01:01:26,832 --> 01:01:29,212
but I'm not using the proprietary one.

1440
01:01:29,592 --> 01:01:31,872
And particularly people that tend to have money

1441
01:01:31,872 --> 01:01:34,452
or skew wealth will understand why this is so important.

1442
01:01:34,732 --> 01:01:35,992
So it's not like this is pure charity.

1443
01:01:36,112 --> 01:01:37,812
You might need charity to kickstart things,

1444
01:01:37,912 --> 01:01:39,452
but then I think you could build a great business too.

1445
01:01:40,832 --> 01:01:40,972
Yeah.

1446
01:01:41,572 --> 01:01:42,312
Food for thought.

1447
01:01:43,752 --> 01:01:46,132
You mentioned earlier gold,

1448
01:01:47,032 --> 01:01:48,912
and this discussion reminds me.

1449
01:01:48,912 --> 01:01:49,212
Did I?

1450
01:01:50,332 --> 01:01:51,012
Just briefly.

1451
01:01:51,112 --> 01:01:51,792
It was a passing company.

1452
01:01:51,872 --> 01:01:53,052
didn't he say something?

1453
01:01:53,192 --> 01:01:54,112
It's an awkward segue.

1454
01:01:54,512 --> 01:01:55,732
Yeah, it's a super awkward segue.

1455
01:01:56,692 --> 01:01:57,972
Sorry, it was bland in my mind.

1456
01:01:58,092 --> 01:01:59,312
It was like an offhanded comment,

1457
01:01:59,452 --> 01:02:00,052
I think, earlier.

1458
01:02:00,132 --> 01:02:01,292
We can check the transcript.

1459
01:02:01,552 --> 01:02:01,852
It's in there.

1460
01:02:02,992 --> 01:02:04,272
I think Steve was mentioning

1461
01:02:04,272 --> 01:02:05,392
gold, the ancient civilizations

1462
01:02:05,392 --> 01:02:06,292
visited by aliens.

1463
01:02:06,312 --> 01:02:07,472
Maybe that's what I was, yeah.

1464
01:02:07,772 --> 01:02:09,092
I think my head has just been

1465
01:02:09,092 --> 01:02:09,792
visited by aliens.

1466
01:02:09,892 --> 01:02:11,732
That's what I heard on ancient history.

1467
01:02:11,912 --> 01:02:14,532
It's a ship and his head is malfunctioning.

1468
01:02:18,172 --> 01:02:19,732
I would never get a chance to do it.

1469
01:02:19,732 --> 01:02:31,012
I was talking to a friend yesterday who's a Bitcoiner, and he was trying to convince me of the gold hypothesis and thesis.

1470
01:02:31,692 --> 01:02:33,452
And I've never been a gold person.

1471
01:02:33,552 --> 01:02:36,872
I think I only came to understand gold after I came to understand Bitcoin.

1472
01:02:37,452 --> 01:02:40,272
I think hearing the gold narrative initially was a turnoff.

1473
01:02:41,032 --> 01:02:43,112
The e-gold narrative was a turnoff for me.

1474
01:02:43,852 --> 01:02:45,892
I think I understand them both a lot better now.

1475
01:02:45,892 --> 01:02:49,072
but I feel like gold has these problems with it.

1476
01:02:49,212 --> 01:02:52,912
We have custodying it and quantity is particularly challenging

1477
01:02:52,912 --> 01:02:54,532
and transferring it and stuff, yeah.

1478
01:02:55,712 --> 01:03:00,312
But this friend of mine was mentioning that it may be that

1479
01:03:00,312 --> 01:03:03,912
a lot of what we talk about is trying to help people understand

1480
01:03:03,912 --> 01:03:06,652
Bitcoin and the philosophy and what it's all about

1481
01:03:06,652 --> 01:03:09,892
and why it's not purely a technology

1482
01:03:09,892 --> 01:03:14,832
and that it's different than all the rest of these kind of crypto things.

1483
01:03:14,832 --> 01:03:21,392
and you know i thought maybe like there's a different framing that would help people kind

1484
01:03:21,392 --> 01:03:27,772
of on board which is if people understood gold better and then understood the bugs but i don't

1485
01:03:27,772 --> 01:03:32,272
know like i don't feel like there's a lot of this at least in the last let's say decade there hasn't

1486
01:03:32,272 --> 01:03:36,992
been a lot of discourse about gold but i think in recent years there is i think i think in the last

1487
01:03:36,992 --> 01:03:41,152
couple years has been one of the better performing assets i don't i don't track it too closely it has

1488
01:03:41,152 --> 01:03:43,592
outperformed Bitcoin the past four years.

1489
01:03:43,592 --> 01:03:44,192
Has it?

1490
01:03:44,192 --> 01:03:45,392
The past four years has outperformed Bitcoin.

1491
01:03:45,392 --> 01:03:46,892
We talked about this a month ago.

1492
01:03:46,892 --> 01:03:49,212
And it's even outperforming it more now

1493
01:03:49,212 --> 01:03:51,352
because it's all time high.

1494
01:03:51,352 --> 01:03:52,192
Right.

1495
01:03:52,192 --> 01:04:02,788
But it easy for I think it easy for like sovereigns to buy gold It probably not easy for sovereigns to buy Bitcoin Both from like logistically and I think there a lot of

1496
01:04:02,788 --> 01:04:04,868
gold getting repatriated these days

1497
01:04:04,868 --> 01:04:06,608
where, you know, which is kind of like

1498
01:04:06,608 --> 01:04:09,008
maybe portends war and stuff like that.

1499
01:04:09,748 --> 01:04:10,588
But by the way,

1500
01:04:10,688 --> 01:04:12,688
sorry, just really quick question on that. Is there, are there any

1501
01:04:12,688 --> 01:04:14,708
companies that specialize in just helping

1502
01:04:14,708 --> 01:04:16,568
sovereigns acquire, acquire

1503
01:04:16,568 --> 01:04:17,788
and kind of see their Bitcoin?

1504
01:04:18,588 --> 01:04:20,608
I guess Coinbase could do it. Other companies could be like,

1505
01:04:20,608 --> 01:04:22,588
is there anyone that's like, that's what they're focused on? That seems like

1506
01:04:22,588 --> 01:04:23,128
a great business.

1507
01:04:23,628 --> 01:04:24,148
I'm not aware.

1508
01:04:24,788 --> 01:04:26,028
I assume anybody who does,

1509
01:04:26,228 --> 01:04:26,448
I mean,

1510
01:04:26,688 --> 01:04:28,008
we should ask Alan Bays.

1511
01:04:28,268 --> 01:04:28,448
Yeah.

1512
01:04:28,708 --> 01:04:30,028
Like whether he's considered it

1513
01:04:30,028 --> 01:04:30,868
or if he knows of others.

1514
01:04:31,048 --> 01:04:31,248
Yeah.

1515
01:04:31,368 --> 01:04:32,288
If you're out there doing that,

1516
01:04:32,288 --> 01:04:33,468
it's a good idea.

1517
01:04:33,808 --> 01:04:33,948
Right.

1518
01:04:34,028 --> 01:04:34,348
From River.

1519
01:04:34,628 --> 01:04:34,768
Yeah.

1520
01:04:35,848 --> 01:04:36,928
But if you have this

1521
01:04:36,928 --> 01:04:38,148
as a great performing asset,

1522
01:04:38,348 --> 01:04:39,188
you can kind of predict

1523
01:04:39,188 --> 01:04:39,988
that all the sovereigns

1524
01:04:39,988 --> 01:04:40,948
are going to continue

1525
01:04:40,948 --> 01:04:42,008
to buy gold.

1526
01:04:42,368 --> 01:04:42,548
I mean,

1527
01:04:42,568 --> 01:04:43,068
you would think

1528
01:04:43,068 --> 01:04:44,288
they're going to buy Bitcoin someday.

1529
01:04:45,068 --> 01:04:45,668
Maybe some of them are,

1530
01:04:45,768 --> 01:04:46,588
but like maybe you don't have

1531
01:04:46,588 --> 01:04:47,768
as much IMF challenge.

1532
01:04:47,988 --> 01:04:48,808
Maybe just have like,

1533
01:04:49,448 --> 01:04:49,968
it's just like,

1534
01:04:50,028 --> 01:04:51,368
it's more standard in a sense.

1535
01:04:51,488 --> 01:04:52,288
It's easier for people

1536
01:04:52,288 --> 01:04:57,888
that understand, you know, you don't get fired for buying, you know, whatever, IBM or gold or

1537
01:04:57,888 --> 01:05:03,928
whatever. So I wonder if actually just coming to a deeper understanding of gold and it's like

1538
01:05:03,928 --> 01:05:07,368
exciting again, I guess I didn't realize the last four years it's outperformed Bitcoin,

1539
01:05:07,468 --> 01:05:12,168
but it's like exciting in a way. Does that draw in a bunch of attention that then gets people

1540
01:05:12,168 --> 01:05:16,968
excited about gold? And then you come to learn more about like the problems and challenges and

1541
01:05:16,968 --> 01:05:21,928
the opportunities with digital. Yeah. And we haven't talked about this on the show.

1542
01:05:21,928 --> 01:05:40,128
In my mind, to me, the whole digital gold narrative is like I've been told so many times because within Bitcoin circles, I do think it's like, I think it is the one of the best ways, if not the best way to like help people understand the potential value of Bitcoin in the future.

1543
01:05:41,268 --> 01:05:42,748
But that's if you believe in gold.

1544
01:05:42,768 --> 01:05:42,928
Yeah.

1545
01:05:43,128 --> 01:05:44,088
Then digital gold makes it.

1546
01:05:44,088 --> 01:05:49,188
So the other point I was going to make is I think, I forget if you said this pre-show or not, maybe I'm making it up, but.

1547
01:05:50,108 --> 01:05:50,768
It's the chip.

1548
01:05:50,768 --> 01:05:51,268
Yeah.

1549
01:05:51,268 --> 01:06:00,448
Is this a good story to narrative for Silicon Valley big tech people?

1550
01:06:01,128 --> 01:06:06,368
And I think no, unless it's maybe what you just said here,

1551
01:06:06,368 --> 01:06:12,448
which is first educate big tech on why gold and then why Bitcoin.

1552
01:06:13,088 --> 01:06:18,868
Because my experience with tech people is that they don't understand gold.

1553
01:06:18,868 --> 01:06:29,148
And my own personal story, like I initially did buy, like a long time ago, I bought some gold because I was at the 101 level of investing.

1554
01:06:29,488 --> 01:06:33,548
And like I found a bunch of sites and they're like, yeah, you should have a portion in gold.

1555
01:06:33,628 --> 01:06:35,148
I'm like, all right, I'll just follow that advice.

1556
01:06:35,408 --> 01:06:42,628
And then the next step was, well, the Warren Buffett thesis, which is like gold's stupid.

1557
01:06:42,868 --> 01:06:44,148
It's a nonproductive asset.

1558
01:06:44,288 --> 01:06:45,048
There's no yield.

1559
01:06:45,388 --> 01:06:46,748
It doesn't earn anything.

1560
01:06:46,748 --> 01:06:47,368
It's stupid.

1561
01:06:47,368 --> 01:06:48,988
and I'm like, that's true.

1562
01:06:49,208 --> 01:06:50,368
You pay people to dig it up

1563
01:06:50,368 --> 01:06:51,848
and then you pay people to put it under.

1564
01:06:52,348 --> 01:06:53,728
I'm like, it is nonproductive.

1565
01:06:53,828 --> 01:06:54,288
It's stupid.

1566
01:06:54,648 --> 01:06:55,848
So then I sold all my gold

1567
01:06:55,848 --> 01:06:57,188
and I actually wrote up

1568
01:06:57,188 --> 01:06:58,348
like a six page

1569
01:06:58,348 --> 01:07:01,148
like

1570
01:07:01,148 --> 01:07:04,408
memo on like

1571
01:07:04,408 --> 01:07:05,768
why it's so stupid

1572
01:07:05,768 --> 01:07:06,888
to invest in gold.

1573
01:07:07,088 --> 01:07:07,368
For who?

1574
01:07:08,068 --> 01:07:09,248
I shared it with a friend.

1575
01:07:09,388 --> 01:07:10,148
I think I shared it with you.

1576
01:07:11,528 --> 01:07:12,668
Steve does these like

1577
01:07:12,668 --> 01:07:13,648
this private writing.

1578
01:07:13,828 --> 01:07:14,788
I've never gotten a memo.

1579
01:07:15,128 --> 01:07:15,728
I would like to read

1580
01:07:15,728 --> 01:07:16,748
this private Steve.

1581
01:07:16,748 --> 01:07:18,528
Before I met you.

1582
01:07:19,248 --> 01:07:20,368
I'm happy to show you.

1583
01:07:20,488 --> 01:07:21,088
Actually, I'd be curious.

1584
01:07:21,128 --> 01:07:22,128
It's kind of funny now.

1585
01:07:22,808 --> 01:07:24,608
We should live read it.

1586
01:07:26,448 --> 01:07:30,828
And then similar to DK's path,

1587
01:07:31,008 --> 01:07:32,748
then I got into Bitcoin

1588
01:07:32,748 --> 01:07:35,328
and then I understood gold.

1589
01:07:36,328 --> 01:07:37,288
So I actually think

1590
01:07:37,288 --> 01:07:40,068
the average tech person,

1591
01:07:40,748 --> 01:07:42,908
they are not invested in gold.

1592
01:07:43,088 --> 01:07:43,988
They don't get gold.

1593
01:07:43,988 --> 01:07:46,128
They sort of have the Warren Buffett view on it.

1594
01:07:46,128 --> 01:07:52,228
So I think selling them on Bitcoin through that lens out of the gate is a non-starter.

1595
01:07:52,868 --> 01:08:03,468
So instead, yeah, and maybe what you're hoping to do, like we can explain why we now think gold has had value for thousands of years and why it still like is valuable today.

1596
01:08:03,748 --> 01:08:08,508
That it's not just a bunch of, you know, stupid investors or people holding it.

1597
01:08:09,288 --> 01:08:13,448
And then what are the characteristics of it that make it quite unique?

1598
01:08:13,448 --> 01:08:16,108
and then be like, oh, Bitcoin actually has

1599
01:08:16,108 --> 01:08:19,788
almost all of those characteristics and even more.

1600
01:08:21,208 --> 01:08:22,408
So are you winning?

1601
01:08:22,568 --> 01:08:23,708
Is that what you were hoping to walk through?

1602
01:08:23,968 --> 01:08:24,848
I mean, gold pull us.

1603
01:08:24,928 --> 01:08:25,308
Kind of, yeah.

1604
01:08:25,368 --> 01:08:26,448
I mean, and I wouldn't say,

1605
01:08:26,608 --> 01:08:28,328
I don't claim to be a gold expert.

1606
01:08:28,648 --> 01:08:28,768
Gold bug.

1607
01:08:29,148 --> 01:08:30,308
DK is the gold bug on the show.

1608
01:08:30,488 --> 01:08:32,208
I had a chat with a friend yesterday.

1609
01:08:32,208 --> 01:08:32,708
Do you feel it was Ron Paul?

1610
01:08:33,308 --> 01:08:35,328
Actually, to be honest, I don't own any gold.

1611
01:08:36,188 --> 01:08:36,768
Like zero.

1612
01:08:37,268 --> 01:08:39,848
So I'm not saying I'm bullish on gold.

1613
01:08:39,848 --> 01:08:41,248
I just don't really,

1614
01:08:41,248 --> 01:08:58,088
I don't have much of an opinion about it, but this friend was pointing out to me that there's a lot of people who are paying a lot more attention to it today and are getting excited about gold because of the nation states are getting excited and they're repatriating it.

1615
01:08:58,227 --> 01:08:59,968
And it's outperformed Bitcoin, I guess.

1616
01:09:00,088 --> 01:09:03,128
I didn't realize it was, he mentioned the last two years, but you're mentioning the last four years.

1617
01:09:03,748 --> 01:09:05,748
But I think there's, I mean, you have to cherry pick the timeframe.

1618
01:09:05,748 --> 01:09:06,068
Yeah.

1619
01:09:06,188 --> 01:09:10,708
When Bitcoin was 60K in 2021, then that's four years.

1620
01:09:10,708 --> 01:09:28,748
But people who are not thinking about Bitcoin are thinking about gold and they're just watching. His example was the last two years. It's been this fantastic run, I guess. And so he's like, you know, why wouldn't you talk about that story? Because like it's obviously exciting to people when numbers go up. Right.

1621
01:09:28,748 --> 01:09:52,328
And instead of explaining Bitcoin, is there an opportunity to get people who are neither educated about Bitcoin nor gold to kind of use gold as an on-ramp to understand effectively the simple way I think of it now, which I've kind of always believed and had concerns with is like, if you believe that your government is here to serve you, then you don't need gold.

1622
01:09:52,328 --> 01:09:59,688
But if you believe there's anybody in power who may have misaligned interests, then gold is your way to protect yourself from the misalignment.

1623
01:10:01,008 --> 01:10:01,068
Yeah.

1624
01:10:01,348 --> 01:10:02,128
Well, go deeper.

1625
01:10:03,168 --> 01:10:04,968
Imagine, I mean, I think this is a great question.

1626
01:10:05,548 --> 01:10:07,368
You know, hey, I work at Google.

1627
01:10:07,808 --> 01:10:09,128
I do tech stuff all day.

1628
01:10:09,288 --> 01:10:10,308
The rock people are dumb.

1629
01:10:11,208 --> 01:10:12,128
Why are they not dumb?

1630
01:10:12,868 --> 01:10:19,908
Well, I think I don't look at backward performance, but I think a lot of people are attracted to like this thing has gone up a lot.

1631
01:10:20,108 --> 01:10:21,008
Why has it gone up?

1632
01:10:21,408 --> 01:10:21,808
Right.

1633
01:10:21,808 --> 01:10:47,588
You work at Google. Maybe you want to hold, maybe you want to have inflation protection. You want to be hedged against inflation. I think people who are successful in the financial ecosystem and the monetary ecosystem still sometimes hear about the problems with inflation and want to protect against it. And obviously holding Google stock is a fine way to protect against inflation and get AI upside. Gold is more.

1634
01:10:47,588 --> 01:10:51,028
But what is inflation? That's the greedy corporations, right?

1635
01:10:51,808 --> 01:10:53,708
I'll give my

1636
01:10:53,708 --> 01:10:55,788
so here's my current view on

1637
01:10:55,788 --> 01:10:57,888
investing I mean we can talk about

1638
01:10:57,888 --> 01:11:00,148
the properties

1639
01:11:00,148 --> 01:11:01,788
of gold which make it a unique

1640
01:11:01,788 --> 01:11:03,548
asset we can do that but also like

1641
01:11:03,548 --> 01:11:05,888
I'll start with my own

1642
01:11:05,888 --> 01:11:07,868
why to invest

1643
01:11:07,868 --> 01:11:09,308
in gold I think for

1644
01:11:09,308 --> 01:11:11,828
your average tech person

1645
01:11:11,828 --> 01:11:13,988
you shouldn't put like a quarter

1646
01:11:13,988 --> 01:11:15,988
of your portfolio in gold

1647
01:11:15,988 --> 01:11:18,008
you're actually basically

1648
01:11:18,008 --> 01:11:19,528
fine if you own no gold

1649
01:11:19,528 --> 01:11:21,608
you're not like a complete idiot

1650
01:11:21,608 --> 01:11:23,008
and missing the boat on something.

1651
01:11:23,608 --> 01:11:25,308
I think buying

1652
01:11:25,308 --> 01:11:30,068
1% or even 50 basis points

1653
01:11:30,068 --> 01:11:31,928
of your net worth in gold

1654
01:11:31,928 --> 01:11:34,468
and actually self-custodied it

1655
01:11:34,468 --> 01:11:36,408
That sounds scary.

1656
01:11:37,408 --> 01:11:39,048
Well, I think that's the move.

1657
01:11:39,048 --> 01:11:40,908
The rationale behind that,

1658
01:11:42,328 --> 01:11:43,888
it's like insurance

1659
01:11:43,888 --> 01:11:46,868
against the world turning upside down.

1660
01:11:47,888 --> 01:11:49,208
And if shit hits the fan

1661
01:11:49,208 --> 01:11:57,488
and like the like fiat currencies die and the internet goes down or like bitcoin for whatever

1662
01:11:57,488 --> 01:12:07,988
reason bitcoin um hasn't completely dominated gold at that event right then um you know holding

1663
01:12:07,988 --> 01:12:14,988
gold it it's like extremely high awareness humans around the the world to recognize it recognize it

1664
01:12:14,988 --> 01:12:16,108
and value it.

1665
01:12:16,708 --> 01:12:18,548
So if you're in need of money

1666
01:12:18,548 --> 01:12:21,828
to trade for weapons, food, shelter, whatever.

1667
01:12:22,727 --> 01:12:24,028
Now you sound like a Texans, David.

1668
01:12:24,727 --> 01:12:27,748
Well, I mean, we're talking about this extreme event, right?

1669
01:12:28,128 --> 01:12:29,588
Then you want to hold gold.

1670
01:12:29,888 --> 01:12:32,888
But you don't need to hold a huge portion of your net worth.

1671
01:12:33,948 --> 01:12:34,808
Because the thing is,

1672
01:12:35,148 --> 01:12:37,727
in such a horrible scenario,

1673
01:12:37,948 --> 01:12:39,028
you'll be very rich,

1674
01:12:39,148 --> 01:12:41,128
even if you only have a tiny percentage.

1675
01:12:41,348 --> 01:12:43,368
Because everything else will be kind of worthless, right?

1676
01:12:43,368 --> 01:13:02,328
I think we should also just explain that, like, I hear you on that, but like, I think one of the reasons people are very skeptical of gold is like, because whenever people start talking about gold, it's like, listen, when there's an apocalypse and you need gas for your motorcycle and you have the guns, even people that own the ETFs, which are probably, you know, false and paper traded or whatever, like that's still, there's a middle ground to it.

1677
01:13:02,328 --> 01:13:05,908
So the second, that's one, maybe I shouldn't have started with that.

1678
01:13:05,928 --> 01:13:06,988
Yes, that's an extreme scenario.

1679
01:13:07,248 --> 01:13:11,448
Another scenario is simply like you need places to put your money.

1680
01:13:11,448 --> 01:13:17,668
And in almost every other asset class, it is a productive asset.

1681
01:13:18,328 --> 01:13:20,727
So you need to then, you need to value it.

1682
01:13:20,828 --> 01:13:26,908
Like what are the cash flow, future cash flow projections for this stock or for the S&P 500 or whatever.

1683
01:13:26,908 --> 01:13:29,088
and if

1684
01:13:29,088 --> 01:13:31,048
here's your projection

1685
01:13:31,048 --> 01:13:33,528
and the market is valuing it higher than that

1686
01:13:33,528 --> 01:13:34,888
like okay

1687
01:13:34,888 --> 01:13:37,248
I no longer want to put my money in that

1688
01:13:37,248 --> 01:13:39,308
and same with like oh I could buy some land

1689
01:13:39,308 --> 01:13:41,068
and rent it out but if the

1690
01:13:41,068 --> 01:13:43,168
math doesn't work out where it makes sense

1691
01:13:43,168 --> 01:13:45,308
for the rent prices then I can't put my money

1692
01:13:45,308 --> 01:13:47,268
there either and then like CDs

1693
01:13:47,268 --> 01:13:49,488
and bonds and like if I can't put my money anywhere

1694
01:13:49,488 --> 01:13:51,428
because none of that makes

1695
01:13:51,428 --> 01:13:52,928
sense where do you put it well

1696
01:13:52,928 --> 01:13:55,508
you can put it in a store of value that's independent

1697
01:13:55,508 --> 01:14:01,488
of all that independent of the nation of all that stuff and so it's like gold has been a unique

1698
01:14:01,488 --> 01:14:07,648
asset class for that reason until the emergence of bitcoin and now bitcoin is that alternative

1699
01:14:07,648 --> 01:14:16,588
with similar properties yeah i would start maybe i agree with all that i would start uh i definitely

1700
01:14:16,588 --> 01:14:19,428
wouldn't leave with the extreme scenario because i do think that's why the gold bugs get like

1701
01:14:19,428 --> 01:14:23,968
painted is because they're like okay these are like the mad max people like the preppers and like

1702
01:14:23,968 --> 01:14:25,288
Yes, the proper case is there.

1703
01:14:25,548 --> 01:14:27,368
I sincerely hope that never happens.

1704
01:14:27,448 --> 01:14:28,048
I don't think it will.

1705
01:14:28,227 --> 01:14:29,428
I'm pretty optimistic.

1706
01:14:29,727 --> 01:14:30,608
It's always good to have insurance.

1707
01:14:30,928 --> 01:14:31,548
Always good to plan.

1708
01:14:31,608 --> 01:14:32,248
You never fucking know.

1709
01:14:32,428 --> 01:14:33,268
The world is a crazy place.

1710
01:14:33,648 --> 01:14:35,268
But generally, I'm very bullish on humanity.

1711
01:14:35,408 --> 01:14:36,708
We generally figure our stuff out.

1712
01:14:36,788 --> 01:14:38,048
We generally go through bad periods

1713
01:14:38,048 --> 01:14:39,288
and then come together

1714
01:14:39,288 --> 01:14:40,548
and generally stuff works out.

1715
01:14:41,208 --> 01:14:41,868
That's my belief.

1716
01:14:41,948 --> 01:14:42,548
Whether I'm right or wrong,

1717
01:14:42,588 --> 01:14:43,148
I'm sticking with it

1718
01:14:43,148 --> 01:14:44,108
because it makes life a lot better.

1719
01:14:45,108 --> 01:14:47,528
Now, one thing that I would start with

1720
01:14:47,528 --> 01:14:50,208
with the Silicon Valley crew,

1721
01:14:50,248 --> 01:14:50,888
I think it is smart,

1722
01:14:50,948 --> 01:14:52,208
and maybe someone should write a piece about this.

1723
01:14:52,208 --> 01:14:52,828
Maybe one of us.

1724
01:14:52,888 --> 01:14:53,748
Maybe someone listening to this.

1725
01:14:53,968 --> 01:14:58,588
It kind of just like, hey, you're, you know, a, whatever, a Google engineer, and you haven't

1726
01:14:58,588 --> 01:15:00,308
thought a lot about gold you're seeing going up.

1727
01:15:00,708 --> 01:15:00,948
Why?

1728
01:15:01,868 --> 01:15:05,268
The thing I would start with is actually the photo here in Presidio Bitcoin.

1729
01:15:05,868 --> 01:15:07,808
I had, I had my LP call this week.

1730
01:15:07,888 --> 01:15:09,268
I had a couple folks come in person.

1731
01:15:09,868 --> 01:15:11,808
And, you know, it's really funny.

1732
01:15:12,368 --> 01:15:15,768
Shout out to, shout out to Maurice and Ben, if you're listening.

1733
01:15:16,288 --> 01:15:19,908
But it's funny because Ben in particular, I can tell like they're, they're open-minded.

1734
01:15:20,028 --> 01:15:23,568
They thought the thesis was cool, but like, I'm literally watching them join, particularly

1735
01:15:23,568 --> 01:15:23,808
Ben.

1736
01:15:23,968 --> 01:15:25,368
and I mean this in a very good way,

1737
01:15:26,108 --> 01:15:27,428
join the cult in real time.

1738
01:15:28,388 --> 01:15:29,468
And so the more they read,

1739
01:15:29,588 --> 01:15:30,628
the more it started off

1740
01:15:30,628 --> 01:15:31,628
as we started having these conversations,

1741
01:15:31,768 --> 01:15:33,208
like, yeah, there's this Bitcoin thing.

1742
01:15:33,488 --> 01:15:34,668
It seems like Trump administration

1743
01:15:34,668 --> 01:15:36,528
is going to kind of line their own pockets.

1744
01:15:36,648 --> 01:15:37,108
Probably a good idea.

1745
01:15:37,688 --> 01:15:38,388
You start reading more

1746
01:15:38,388 --> 01:15:39,068
and you start reading more

1747
01:15:39,068 --> 01:15:39,788
and you're like, wait a second.

1748
01:15:39,928 --> 01:15:40,748
Where does money come from?

1749
01:15:40,788 --> 01:15:41,227
What is money?

1750
01:15:41,308 --> 01:15:42,008
All these questions

1751
01:15:42,008 --> 01:15:43,088
and I'm seeing them in real time.

1752
01:15:43,388 --> 01:15:44,528
Now he's going to come next week

1753
01:15:44,528 --> 01:15:45,408
to our design week.

1754
01:15:45,648 --> 01:15:47,768
I'm watching someone join the cult

1755
01:15:47,768 --> 01:15:48,848
in real time and it's awesome.

1756
01:15:49,628 --> 01:15:51,188
And one of the things

1757
01:15:51,188 --> 01:15:52,428
that really resonated with them

1758
01:15:52,428 --> 01:15:53,348
when they were here in person

1759
01:15:53,348 --> 01:15:57,408
was our Andy Warhol photo or painting

1760
01:15:57,408 --> 01:15:59,248
or whatever it is in the kitchen.

1761
01:15:59,748 --> 01:16:01,748
And it just shows a can of Campbell's soup

1762
01:16:01,748 --> 01:16:03,428
in the famous Andy Warhol style.

1763
01:16:03,808 --> 01:16:05,548
And it just shows the price over time.

1764
01:16:06,288 --> 01:16:07,788
And I don't know if those numbers are accurate.

1765
01:16:08,148 --> 01:16:08,568
Do we know?

1766
01:16:08,768 --> 01:16:10,328
Did someone actually check the math on that?

1767
01:16:10,968 --> 01:16:12,428
Yeah, well, assume they did for a minute.

1768
01:16:12,727 --> 01:16:15,248
It like the can of soup, it keeps going up over time.

1769
01:16:15,288 --> 01:16:15,928
It was like a nickel.

1770
01:16:16,768 --> 01:16:18,227
And it was like 50 cents, like all this stuff.

1771
01:16:18,227 --> 01:16:22,928
But then like the price jump in the last five years,

1772
01:16:22,928 --> 01:16:24,848
they show it twice, it's just like, what?

1773
01:16:25,288 --> 01:16:26,868
Like it was like, you know, a dollar

1774
01:16:26,868 --> 01:16:29,227
and it was $1.25 and $1.50 in like five years.

1775
01:16:29,308 --> 01:16:30,668
And you're like, wait a second, what's going on?

1776
01:16:31,108 --> 01:16:32,648
That to them was a very powerful thing.

1777
01:16:32,688 --> 01:16:34,768
They're like, yeah, like why is there so much inflation?

1778
01:16:35,508 --> 01:16:36,488
So let's start with something like that.

1779
01:16:36,568 --> 01:16:37,188
That's like a fact.

1780
01:16:37,248 --> 01:16:38,168
No one can dispute that's a fact.

1781
01:16:38,388 --> 01:16:40,108
You might say it's more than is reported

1782
01:16:40,108 --> 01:16:41,408
and it probably is, but that's a fact.

1783
01:16:42,068 --> 01:16:43,727
Then you say, well, why is there inflation?

1784
01:16:44,227 --> 01:16:46,688
And I think most people have never thought about this ever.

1785
01:16:46,808 --> 01:16:47,828
They've never thought about what money is.

1786
01:16:47,908 --> 01:16:51,088
And when they hear the popular talking points are inflation,

1787
01:16:51,088 --> 01:16:52,488
it's the greedy corporations.

1788
01:16:52,488 --> 01:16:55,928
I actually like Bernie, but it's the greedy corporations, you know?

1789
01:16:57,688 --> 01:17:00,448
Or it's, you know, it's the supply chain.

1790
01:17:00,608 --> 01:17:02,188
It's like all these ridiculous things.

1791
01:17:02,568 --> 01:17:04,588
But it's like, no, the reason there's inflation,

1792
01:17:04,748 --> 01:17:06,468
and sure, maybe short-term, some things, whatever.

1793
01:17:06,828 --> 01:17:09,348
But like, it's because we rent money out of thin air.

1794
01:17:09,928 --> 01:17:11,628
Like, I always tell people, it's like, listen,

1795
01:17:11,708 --> 01:17:16,288
if there's 10 Monopoly houses and you're playing Monopoly and you have $10, okay?

1796
01:17:17,468 --> 01:17:20,248
And then all of a sudden, you just go to the bank and grab $10

1797
01:17:20,248 --> 01:17:21,668
and throw that on the table.

1798
01:17:21,668 --> 01:17:28,128
still 10 houses now there's $20 price your house the wealth did not change there's 10 houses

1799
01:17:28,128 --> 01:17:33,448
same as before and after but now a house that used to cost $1 is $2 because you just threw $10

1800
01:17:33,448 --> 01:17:40,168
into the mix and it's literally if you try to sell it you get taxed on the game yeah it's literally a

1801
01:17:40,168 --> 01:17:44,328
pee and shell game and you're like well wait a second well why why is that why is that another

1802
01:17:44,328 --> 01:17:49,328
way i think about it maybe this will actually resonate with the uh the high tis crowd is like

1803
01:17:49,328 --> 01:17:53,908
Think of it as like height.

1804
01:17:54,968 --> 01:17:55,148
Okay.

1805
01:17:56,188 --> 01:17:58,788
You know, you're probably 5'10".

1806
01:17:58,788 --> 01:17:59,248
Is that right?

1807
01:17:59,988 --> 01:18:00,788
5'10 and a half.

1808
01:18:01,628 --> 01:18:03,348
With his carbon plates in.

1809
01:18:04,248 --> 01:18:05,268
With the carbon plates.

1810
01:18:06,388 --> 01:18:07,168
5'10 and a half.

1811
01:18:08,788 --> 01:18:13,588
If you came in tomorrow and I measured you again and you haven't changed.

1812
01:18:13,727 --> 01:18:14,488
You're 5'10 and a half.

1813
01:18:14,528 --> 01:18:16,348
That's what you've been probably your whole life.

1814
01:18:16,348 --> 01:18:24,388
maybe age 18 or something and i say you know what steve actually here's the thing uh today

1815
01:18:24,388 --> 01:18:31,128
you're actually 6'3 first you'd be like all right sweet that's cool all right and then you'd be like

1816
01:18:31,128 --> 01:18:36,248
but why am i 6'3 i didn't get any taller maybe like oh don't worry about that we just changed

1817
01:18:36,248 --> 01:18:40,108
the definition of a foot in an inch just a little bit right we just changed a little bit you'd be

1818
01:18:40,108 --> 01:18:44,048
like huh that's kind of weird all right whatever i never think about it and the next time i come

1819
01:18:44,048 --> 01:18:49,008
back a couple years later you're measuring him like steve you're seven eight like wait a second

1820
01:18:49,008 --> 01:18:53,768
six three was cool seven eight now we're getting into like giant i don't want to be seven eight

1821
01:18:53,768 --> 01:18:57,688
but all the 10 foot dudes are still getting all the ladies what's up yeah exactly what's going on

1822
01:18:57,688 --> 01:19:05,368
yeah the 10 foot dudes why are they 10 feet it's just like in the fullness of time and history the

1823
01:19:05,368 --> 01:19:09,528
way money works is going to be seen as so ridiculous because it is it's like what was the

1824
01:19:09,528 --> 01:19:10,128
It was the best we had.

1825
01:19:11,288 --> 01:19:13,468
Before we had the internet, it was the best we had.

1826
01:19:13,488 --> 01:19:14,108
Well, it's not the best we had.

1827
01:19:14,128 --> 01:19:14,948
The best we had was gold.

1828
01:19:15,168 --> 01:19:15,368
Sure.

1829
01:19:15,628 --> 01:19:15,788
Right?

1830
01:19:16,028 --> 01:19:17,468
And so that's its own thing.

1831
01:19:17,528 --> 01:19:19,868
And this gets back to your thesis of why did we have gold in the first place?

1832
01:19:20,128 --> 01:19:23,468
Because if you measure the cost of an apartment or a wool suit or all these things in gold,

1833
01:19:23,548 --> 01:19:24,388
it doesn't change.

1834
01:19:24,428 --> 01:19:25,668
It only changes in fiat terms.

1835
01:19:25,888 --> 01:19:27,928
It changes more than Bitcoin because there's more inflation with gold.

1836
01:19:28,328 --> 01:19:31,868
Anyways, but like one way that I've explained this to the engineer types that really resonates

1837
01:19:31,868 --> 01:19:34,988
is imagine, you know, if you're a scientist, there's a metric system.

1838
01:19:35,088 --> 01:19:35,608
There's meters.

1839
01:19:36,008 --> 01:19:36,088
Yeah.

1840
01:19:36,488 --> 01:19:37,128
Just Kelvin.

1841
01:19:37,128 --> 01:19:43,008
There's systems that we use to measure things because we're doing science.

1842
01:19:43,488 --> 01:19:47,227
And if I were out there telling you, actually, here's the thing, we're going to keep doing science.

1843
01:19:47,368 --> 01:19:51,708
I'm just going to kind of slightly change the definition of a Kelvin or of a meter every day.

1844
01:19:51,828 --> 01:19:52,608
You'd be like, that's insane.

1845
01:19:53,148 --> 01:19:54,188
Because it is insane.

1846
01:19:54,588 --> 01:19:55,368
But that's what we do with money.

1847
01:19:55,668 --> 01:19:57,548
So Bitcoin is the metric system of money.

1848
01:19:57,868 --> 01:19:58,208
Full stop.

1849
01:19:58,248 --> 01:20:00,068
It's like a standard unit of account for money.

1850
01:20:00,448 --> 01:20:01,528
It's a metric system for money.

1851
01:20:01,528 --> 01:20:02,368
It's a great way to do it.

1852
01:20:02,368 --> 01:20:04,448
And gold has been that for thousands of years.

1853
01:20:04,448 --> 01:20:09,648
It's imperfect, but by far the best thing that humans discovered throughout our history.

1854
01:20:09,648 --> 01:20:09,988
Right.

1855
01:20:10,328 --> 01:20:17,208
And now we have developed the perfect system for measuring money, measuring wealth.

1856
01:20:17,328 --> 01:20:18,028
Closest to perfect.

1857
01:20:18,188 --> 01:20:18,888
I mean, we'll see.

1858
01:20:18,948 --> 01:20:19,168
Who knows?

1859
01:20:19,227 --> 01:20:21,288
Maybe something far from the future one day will even replace Bitcoin.

1860
01:20:21,688 --> 01:20:22,068
For now.

1861
01:20:24,208 --> 01:20:24,648
Okay.

1862
01:20:24,928 --> 01:20:27,508
I think we are down to just a few minutes.

1863
01:20:28,408 --> 01:20:29,928
We have a third topic, do we?

1864
01:20:30,388 --> 01:20:31,088
The Apple memory.

1865
01:20:31,227 --> 01:20:31,908
The Apple memory.

1866
01:20:32,068 --> 01:20:33,628
Did you guys order your iPhone this morning?

1867
01:20:34,368 --> 01:20:35,188
Oh, is today the first?

1868
01:20:35,208 --> 01:20:36,328
Today's the first day for pre-order.

1869
01:20:36,348 --> 01:20:38,388
Oh, I need to because I want to be hacker-proof.

1870
01:20:38,828 --> 01:20:41,208
I ordered the orange one, of course.

1871
01:20:41,988 --> 01:20:42,768
Oh, there's an orange one.

1872
01:20:44,268 --> 01:20:44,668
Steve.

1873
01:20:45,208 --> 01:20:45,588
I don't know.

1874
01:20:45,628 --> 01:20:47,068
I don't read the news.

1875
01:20:47,227 --> 01:20:47,928
I actually don't know either.

1876
01:20:48,068 --> 01:20:48,528
I'm related.

1877
01:20:48,708 --> 01:20:49,208
I have no idea.

1878
01:20:49,208 --> 01:20:52,408
I don't read the news, but I've got like an iPhone 13.

1879
01:20:52,528 --> 01:20:53,508
I've got like an old school.

1880
01:20:54,648 --> 01:20:55,568
I'm like desperate.

1881
01:20:55,568 --> 01:20:56,988
I'm rocking the SE and it's busted.

1882
01:20:57,008 --> 01:20:59,188
My battery is like less.

1883
01:20:59,348 --> 01:21:02,568
I've had two iPhone 16s in less than a year.

1884
01:21:02,928 --> 01:21:03,568
Oh, okay.

1885
01:21:03,628 --> 01:21:04,808
So you're very moderate.

1886
01:21:04,908 --> 01:21:05,628
Due to failure.

1887
01:21:05,808 --> 01:21:06,308
Well, yeah.

1888
01:21:06,548 --> 01:21:07,668
Production issues.

1889
01:21:07,848 --> 01:21:10,148
I'm debating moving back to a Nokia at this point.

1890
01:21:12,368 --> 01:21:14,008
Anyway, I'll have to check out the orange one.

1891
01:21:14,348 --> 01:21:29,748
But no, Apple announced a new type of memory in the iPhone 17, along with operating system software changes that implement memory tagging.

1892
01:21:29,748 --> 01:21:31,708
I actually forget MIE, I think.

1893
01:21:31,828 --> 01:21:32,988
I forget what it even stands for.

1894
01:21:32,988 --> 01:21:35,188
but I didn't study the details,

1895
01:21:35,308 --> 01:21:36,828
so don't ask me to explain it in depth,

1896
01:21:37,028 --> 01:21:42,688
but the customer benefit is it significantly reduces

1897
01:21:42,688 --> 01:21:46,008
or can even eliminate certain categories of malware.

1898
01:21:47,388 --> 01:21:48,648
So that's a good thing.

1899
01:21:48,788 --> 01:21:52,328
So, I mean, honestly, I could see this being a difference maker

1900
01:21:52,328 --> 01:21:55,828
for people choosing between an iPhone and an Android phone.

1901
01:21:56,348 --> 01:21:57,948
You said it's a new memory system?

1902
01:21:58,608 --> 01:21:59,508
Yeah, memory tagging.

1903
01:21:59,508 --> 01:22:18,488
So a very common way that malware or viruses can take control of a computer and get root access is if a software application is identified to have a bug where you have a memory overflow error.

1904
01:22:18,488 --> 01:22:28,388
So you might have an array, like a region of memory in which there's bugs and it tries to access outside of that memory.

1905
01:22:29,508 --> 01:22:33,988
And that was not the programmer's intention, but that's how the software works.

1906
01:22:34,628 --> 01:22:48,028
If a hacker learns that, discovers that, then they can take advantage of it by getting the program to start running their software instead of the actual program.

1907
01:22:48,028 --> 01:23:06,148
So with memory tagging, the actual hardware in conjunction with the OS can tag memory so that if that memory, like that out of bounds access is made, it will throw a hardware exception.

1908
01:23:06,948 --> 01:23:10,188
And so the OS can then decide to just kill the process.

1909
01:23:11,008 --> 01:23:13,128
So it's, I mean, it's pretty incredible.

1910
01:23:13,608 --> 01:23:15,348
So this is done at the hardware level.

1911
01:23:15,348 --> 01:23:20,768
Like meaning like you have an object and in memory and then like the hardware actually knows.

1912
01:23:20,768 --> 01:23:23,288
It knows where it's supposed to be able to be allowed to live.

1913
01:23:23,408 --> 01:23:23,468
Yeah.

1914
01:23:23,948 --> 01:23:28,788
And is that, has this been done before on like traditional computers and just made its way into iPhone finally?

1915
01:23:29,328 --> 01:23:35,468
What I read, I mean, Arm announced like sort of a memory tracking protocol maybe like five years ago.

1916
01:23:35,708 --> 01:23:37,227
And I think it adopted that.

1917
01:23:37,368 --> 01:23:39,928
And Apple extended and embraced it, I think.

1918
01:23:40,068 --> 01:23:42,188
They took that, adopted it, made it better.

1919
01:23:42,188 --> 01:23:43,948
but I mean

1920
01:23:43,948 --> 01:23:46,208
I think Graphene OS

1921
01:23:46,208 --> 01:23:48,088
got pissed off about this because they've been doing it

1922
01:23:48,088 --> 01:23:49,568
forever but like you know Apple

1923
01:23:49,568 --> 01:23:51,048
there's a lot more Apple customers

1924
01:23:51,048 --> 01:23:53,888
and they control the hardware

1925
01:23:53,888 --> 01:23:55,868
and the software. Graphene OS

1926
01:23:55,868 --> 01:23:57,727
doesn't control the hardware so I think that's why

1927
01:23:57,727 --> 01:23:58,608
it's a big deal.

1928
01:23:58,968 --> 01:24:01,868
Could Android choose

1929
01:24:01,868 --> 01:24:03,808
to do this or is it like the OEM

1930
01:24:03,808 --> 01:24:05,868
versus open source OS thing

1931
01:24:05,868 --> 01:24:06,968
makes it tough to...

1932
01:24:06,968 --> 01:24:10,008
The Apple semiconductor chips were modified to support this

1933
01:24:10,008 --> 01:24:11,688
so I mean you could do it in software

1934
01:24:11,688 --> 01:24:13,028
but then it's like super inefficient.

1935
01:24:13,328 --> 01:24:13,408
I see.

1936
01:24:14,908 --> 01:24:15,508
One thing,

1937
01:24:15,588 --> 01:24:16,648
I don't understand all that yet.

1938
01:24:16,668 --> 01:24:17,128
I'm going to go deeper.

1939
01:24:17,248 --> 01:24:17,808
It sounds great.

1940
01:24:18,268 --> 01:24:21,128
One thing that I will say is,

1941
01:24:21,208 --> 01:24:21,568
in general,

1942
01:24:21,668 --> 01:24:22,828
it's awesome how much Apple

1943
01:24:22,828 --> 01:24:23,948
really does seem to like

1944
01:24:23,948 --> 01:24:25,168
walk the walk on privacy.

1945
01:24:25,688 --> 01:24:26,468
You know, we talked about

1946
01:24:26,468 --> 01:24:27,868
security and privacy.

1947
01:24:28,068 --> 01:24:28,808
Security and privacy.

1948
01:24:29,227 --> 01:24:30,088
Shout out to the OpenAI,

1949
01:24:30,388 --> 01:24:31,168
or not OpenAI,

1950
01:24:31,348 --> 01:24:32,568
the actually OpenAI,

1951
01:24:32,968 --> 01:24:33,708
MapleAI,

1952
01:24:34,028 --> 01:24:34,868
OpenSeeker guys,

1953
01:24:35,248 --> 01:24:36,148
who, you know,

1954
01:24:36,188 --> 01:24:36,708
have this,

1955
01:24:36,828 --> 01:24:37,748
we talked about the secure

1956
01:24:37,748 --> 01:24:39,048
or the trusted execution environment

1957
01:24:39,048 --> 01:24:39,488
in the cloud,

1958
01:24:39,588 --> 01:24:40,308
which effectively is

1959
01:24:40,308 --> 01:24:41,328
they took something from Apple,

1960
01:24:41,328 --> 01:24:43,128
like a concept that Apple is pioneering

1961
01:24:43,128 --> 01:24:44,968
their own cloud and giving it to everyone

1962
01:24:44,968 --> 01:24:47,227
which is awesome, we should find a way to get

1963
01:24:47,227 --> 01:24:48,648
Apple more involved in Cydia.

1964
01:24:49,048 --> 01:24:50,988
Because I feel like there's so much

1965
01:24:50,988 --> 01:24:53,388
like our ethos is very, very aligned.

1966
01:24:53,888 --> 01:24:54,948
Yep, yep. I agree.

1967
01:24:56,288 --> 01:24:57,408
Rom comes

1968
01:24:57,408 --> 01:24:59,308
here often and he works for Apple so he's

1969
01:24:59,308 --> 01:25:00,568
got to help us out.

1970
01:25:00,868 --> 01:25:02,748
If there's any Apple people listening,

1971
01:25:02,948 --> 01:25:03,868
we're very aligned.

1972
01:25:05,568 --> 01:25:06,248
Very cool.

1973
01:25:07,248 --> 01:25:08,788
Alright, I think that's good. Good wrap.

1974
01:25:08,788 --> 01:25:10,668
Alright. Good to see you guys.

1975
01:25:10,668 --> 01:25:11,248
Thanks, Juan.

1976
01:25:11,468 --> 01:25:11,948
Bye-bye.

1977
01:25:12,068 --> 01:25:12,308
Bye-bye.