1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Presidio Bitcoin Jam. It's Friday, so it must be Friday at noon and ready to hang. How are you guys doing?

2
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,380
Great. Doing good. Doing good. What's going on with you, JK?

3
00:00:09,540 --> 00:00:10,520
Miss you from the studio.

4
00:00:10,820 --> 00:00:11,060
Yeah.

5
00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:28,260
Yes. I can't wait to get back. Well, I'm over out in the Eastern Sierras, as I often am for the summer. I had a good chance to hang with you guys back through a lot of July, but I'm back here now and then we'll be back in SF in studio in like early September, I think.

6
00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:34,480
great so looking forward to uh to getting there and getting more mountain bike sessions and more

7
00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:38,560
you know sauna sessions and everything well i've heard a rumor that the early september

8
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,160
presidio bitcoin jams might happen in the sauna i don't know i think our producer are we gonna

9
00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:48,660
set up a full studio a waterproof heatproof we'll have to chat with alex about that out here but

10
00:00:48,660 --> 00:00:54,700
nvk may come through because i i hear he uh he may want to see what the sauna studio looks like

11
00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:55,040
Oh yeah.

12
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:56,240
You have Banya.lol.

13
00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:58,000
Don't miss it.

14
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,320
So we've got a big list of topics.

15
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,400
Say, I think we had like 15 things,

16
00:01:04,540 --> 00:01:06,220
you know, fast and furious, everything's going.

17
00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:07,520
There's so much going,

18
00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:10,300
but I feel like I'm like way under informed

19
00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:10,900
about everything.

20
00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:12,460
So I'm going to use this as a chance

21
00:01:12,460 --> 00:01:14,200
to just kind of listen and learn

22
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,960
and get educated about all the chaos

23
00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:16,800
going on in the world.

24
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,480
Nice pop out, dude.

25
00:01:19,980 --> 00:01:20,840
Not doing your homework.

26
00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:22,260
Someone doing prep.

27
00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:22,840
Exactly.

28
00:01:24,700 --> 00:01:27,720
did your dog happen to eat any of your

29
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:27,960
preparation sheets?

30
00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,380
My dog ate all my preparation notes, yeah.

31
00:01:31,740 --> 00:01:33,860
So, yeah, we do have a lot of topics.

32
00:01:34,180 --> 00:01:36,200
I don't know what to start with, but I'm going to

33
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,080
throw out one maybe that wasn't in our

34
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:39,860
tweet. Yeah, yeah. Spicy.

35
00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:41,360
Perfect. I want to talk about the

36
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,660
Play Store and

37
00:01:43,660 --> 00:01:46,060
what Callie has been

38
00:01:46,060 --> 00:01:47,340
tweeting about trying to get BitChat.

39
00:01:47,820 --> 00:01:49,940
Yeah. Because we talked about that

40
00:01:49,940 --> 00:01:51,480
a little bit and I actually, it just raised

41
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:57,320
it raised policy questions for an app store that I hadn't considered before

42
00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,680
and I still don't have answers.

43
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,840
And let's set it up from the beginning in case people haven't caught all this.

44
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,540
The context here, so BitChat, which is probably something we want to talk about as well today,

45
00:02:10,260 --> 00:02:14,320
new open source project that Jack Dorsey created and published.

46
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,680
he built it for

47
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,800
iPhone, published all the software

48
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,820
free open source

49
00:02:21,820 --> 00:02:23,660
license and then

50
00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:25,160
Callie took the code

51
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,660
created an Android

52
00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:29,660
code base and made it available

53
00:02:29,660 --> 00:02:30,340
for Android

54
00:02:30,340 --> 00:02:33,340
someone

55
00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:35,540
else took the code

56
00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:37,500
and then submitted it to the app store

57
00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:39,380
and got it in, sorry the play store

58
00:02:39,380 --> 00:02:41,680
into the Google play store and got it into the play store

59
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,440
Callie then started

60
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:45,300
tweeting a lot about that.

61
00:02:46,660 --> 00:02:48,200
And was that other one called

62
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,140
ByteChat, not BitChat?

63
00:02:50,260 --> 00:02:51,520
No, it was called BitChat.

64
00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:52,460
Oh, it was. Okay.

65
00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:53,940
There's also a ByteChat.

66
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:57,760
You're getting ahead of the story here, DK.

67
00:02:58,660 --> 00:02:59,800
Sorry, I did too much homework.

68
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:00,660
You're more prepared.

69
00:03:01,660 --> 00:03:02,480
You're more prepared.

70
00:03:02,620 --> 00:03:03,380
I didn't even know about ByteChat.

71
00:03:04,780 --> 00:03:07,020
And then Callie's complaining

72
00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:09,440
because the authoritative source

73
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,060
or the real source was getting

74
00:03:11,060 --> 00:03:12,060
denied then.

75
00:03:12,060 --> 00:03:14,960
but then that raised questions for me

76
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,120
even though I know Callie did the work

77
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,220
to create the Android port

78
00:03:18,220 --> 00:03:21,260
so it seems intuitive

79
00:03:21,260 --> 00:03:23,100
that he should be the one to be able to submit it

80
00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:23,620
to the app store

81
00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:25,600
it's a free open source license

82
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:26,860
so this other person

83
00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:28,580
and I don't know who that is

84
00:03:28,580 --> 00:03:30,120
but the other person that submitted it and got it to the app store

85
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,660
why doesn't that person have the right to get it to the app store

86
00:03:32,660 --> 00:03:35,200
so then there's been

87
00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,820
weeks of hassle there

88
00:03:36,820 --> 00:03:37,880
and you know the byte chat thing

89
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,360
I think one of the pushbacks that Callie got from Google

90
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,980
was that offensive language,

91
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,020
bit chat, you can also pronounce it bitch at.

92
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:47,780
Are you serious?

93
00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:48,960
That was one of their complaints.

94
00:03:49,540 --> 00:03:50,700
So it was getting denied for that.

95
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,820
That's why some other person submitted byte chat,

96
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,240
which got past the bit chat or bitch at language.

97
00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,240
I'm actually impressed.

98
00:03:59,420 --> 00:04:01,700
So this was in theory like an Android reviewer.

99
00:04:01,820 --> 00:04:03,560
Someone was paid probably to go through this.

100
00:04:04,220 --> 00:04:05,260
Because whoever did that,

101
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,620
that was not obvious to me when I saw bit chat.

102
00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:12,680
I think, I think Callie likes to sort of like play that aspect up.

103
00:04:12,860 --> 00:04:14,200
At least I've seen her bitch hat.

104
00:04:14,260 --> 00:04:16,160
And so you mentioned that on the show two weeks ago.

105
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,160
I mean, it's, it's funny and hilarious, but.

106
00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:24,520
I also learned that there's that those words in French are the male and female genitalia

107
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,180
bit and chat.

108
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,540
Maybe I didn't pronounce it the French way, but.

109
00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:31,400
I also had not heard of that.

110
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:32,940
So you've been doing a lot of words.

111
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,700
I learned it in the comments.

112
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,120
Yeah.

113
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,500
I was trying to get to the bottom of me

114
00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:39,820
Yeah, I feel so

115
00:04:39,820 --> 00:04:44,340
Are you going to tell us about Ani next? Did she help you with that?

116
00:04:45,780 --> 00:04:47,180
Oh my god, let's not go there

117
00:04:47,180 --> 00:04:50,080
Elon has been nuts this week

118
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:50,920
He's been having fun

119
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:56,200
So the policy question that raised for me is

120
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,440
When you do have free open source software

121
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,220
Who does have the right to get an app

122
00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:05,220
in the App Store, and then how should that be reasoned about?

123
00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:09,520
I did a little bit of LLM sleuthing to try to figure out what are the

124
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,180
guidelines and policies today for the Play Store and the App Store.

125
00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:17,800
What I learned, and again, it's LLM, so

126
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,360
not necessarily fully accurate, but it seems plausible.

127
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,220
If you own the trademark, that gives you a lot of

128
00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:30,020
power in getting that you can then

129
00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:33,260
get your app named that in the app store because you own the trademark.

130
00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:38,140
But if you don't own the trademark, then even if you're the copyright

131
00:05:38,140 --> 00:05:42,280
holder of the code, if you licensed it free open source,

132
00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:46,340
owning the copyright actually doesn't have much sway

133
00:05:46,340 --> 00:05:50,460
at all. And of course, if you extrapolate that further, it can

134
00:05:50,460 --> 00:05:54,460
get diluted because if you're the sole copyright holder and you

135
00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:58,640
initially do a code dump and open source it, sure, you have 100% of the copyright.

136
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,960
But most open source projects over time, it gets diluted.

137
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,040
There's many contributors.

138
00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,100
And so I even have a PR merged on...

139
00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:07,820
I saw that, actually.

140
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,460
I was looking at the GitHub today and I saw Mr. Stephen.

141
00:06:09,460 --> 00:06:11,520
Although to be fair, it was the white paper, not the code.

142
00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:12,960
Dude, there's like five people.

143
00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:13,560
You're one of those.

144
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,880
He's also a Bitcoin contributor.

145
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:18,960
He's a core dev, you know?

146
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:20,220
Yeah, Bitcoin core.

147
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:20,820
I know that.

148
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,560
This was before Vibe coding.

149
00:06:22,740 --> 00:06:27,140
They sneak in with these trivial PRs to add to my resume.

150
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,540
So, but an open source code base,

151
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,220
copyright gets distributed,

152
00:06:35,740 --> 00:06:37,560
but whether it's concentrated or distributed,

153
00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:39,880
the free open source license

154
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,240
gives license to other people.

155
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:42,980
As long as you follow the license,

156
00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:44,300
give proper attribution,

157
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:45,640
or whatever you need to do for the license,

158
00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:48,700
you have just as much right to distribute it

159
00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,140
as the person who wrote the code

160
00:06:51,140 --> 00:06:52,160
or people who wrote the code.

161
00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:55,400
So it kind of calls into question,

162
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,340
why should

163
00:06:57,340 --> 00:06:59,480
Kali's app

164
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,480
get precedent over the other person who

165
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,100
published it? I don't know

166
00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:05,480
the answer to that. Now I've heard also that

167
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:06,980
the initial one that got submitted

168
00:07:06,980 --> 00:07:11,360
it might have been scammy in some way.

169
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,140
I actually don't know the facts there but

170
00:07:13,140 --> 00:07:14,540
assuming it

171
00:07:14,540 --> 00:07:17,260
was, well then that's reason alone

172
00:07:17,260 --> 00:07:18,460
to pull it but

173
00:07:18,460 --> 00:07:21,260
I'm more interested in the general

174
00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:23,340
discussion here. We have this

175
00:07:23,340 --> 00:07:25,240
concrete example but just

176
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,320
in general, let's say

177
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,420
Mac writes software,

178
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,340
publishes it, open sources

179
00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:33,040
it, you don't trademark a name,

180
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,440
but you call it whatever, Mac's app.

181
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:36,940
And then I come along,

182
00:07:37,260 --> 00:07:38,920
submit Mac's app to the store.

183
00:07:39,380 --> 00:07:40,780
At a period, publish it.

184
00:07:41,380 --> 00:07:42,980
And then

185
00:07:42,980 --> 00:07:45,260
you get offended by that

186
00:07:45,260 --> 00:07:47,120
and it's like, hey, but you don't own the trademark.

187
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,080
So who has the right

188
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:50,680
to have that app in the app store?

189
00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:52,860
And so if we argue that, well,

190
00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:55,740
the early bird gets the worm

191
00:07:55,740 --> 00:07:57,960
and the first mover gets the app store

192
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,180
okay that could be a policy

193
00:08:00,180 --> 00:08:01,520
but then let's say in this example

194
00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,480
I stop maintaining it

195
00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,520
like I submitted it

196
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,400
I put it in the store and then I just don't touch it

197
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,260
and then meanwhile you just keep improving the app

198
00:08:09,260 --> 00:08:11,780
and there's all kinds of new releases and functionality and bug fixes

199
00:08:11,780 --> 00:08:13,920
and the only thing

200
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,820
you can do is submit the app

201
00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:18,140
that's better now under a different name

202
00:08:18,140 --> 00:08:19,840
so that doesn't seem

203
00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:20,560
fair at all either

204
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,380
so what do we think

205
00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:26,820
Do we know anything more about the actual policies and guidelines now?

206
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,400
And if not, what do we think they actually should be?

207
00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:33,440
Well, to me, this highlights, we had a bit of this discussion, I think, last week.

208
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,920
But, I mean, this is just the problem with having any centralized point of trust, right?

209
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,200
At the end of the day, I mean, it's a very, I guess, you know,

210
00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:46,400
I think with any App Store policy, there's always going to be some human judgment piece, right?

211
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,900
Like, with the Domus release, with the Primo releases, with all these different releases,

212
00:08:50,100 --> 00:08:51,560
like, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

213
00:08:51,620 --> 00:08:51,800
Why?

214
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,680
maybe you got the right review or maybe you didn't.

215
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,920
And in this case, I mean, I am sort of sympathetic to

216
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,660
if there was something scammy,

217
00:08:57,700 --> 00:09:00,280
obviously that's something that should be pulled directly for that.

218
00:09:00,660 --> 00:09:02,540
And I guess that's the job of the reviewer to figure that out.

219
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:04,500
But how do you decide scammy even?

220
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,880
Well, if someone like loses their money or something, I don't know.

221
00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:11,340
Like, but I mean, like, like what if I take the, like, like,

222
00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:15,400
so Jack, you know, composes the iOS one, submits it.

223
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,260
I pull the open source software.

224
00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:20,780
I use exactly that same software and I put in a paywall and I say,

225
00:09:20,780 --> 00:09:22,160
hey, use Jack's new app.

226
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,800
It's, you know, $10 a month.

227
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,700
Is that like scammy?

228
00:09:26,820 --> 00:09:28,080
I mean, it feels scammy to me,

229
00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:29,960
but like, it's not like an outright scam.

230
00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:31,700
It's just somebody kind of, you know,

231
00:09:31,860 --> 00:09:35,220
optimizing around kind of a brand that's growing.

232
00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:36,520
Yeah, that's a good example.

233
00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:37,400
It's a great example.

234
00:09:37,460 --> 00:09:38,640
And I think it comes to, I mean,

235
00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:39,920
so I think there's two areas, right?

236
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,240
There's like the letter of the law

237
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:42,300
and then there's the way the world,

238
00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:44,500
and I think most of us think should work.

239
00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:45,320
So the letter of the law is,

240
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,020
I mean, if it's totally free and open source

241
00:09:47,020 --> 00:09:49,020
and that includes for commercial usage,

242
00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:50,500
then I don't think anyone did anything wrong.

243
00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:59,660
Unless, again, they did something where they stated one fact, like, hey, deposit some Bitcoin here or whatever, and then they just steal it.

244
00:09:59,860 --> 00:10:05,000
Okay, well then, if there's a lie and something's violated, that seems like something would get pulled.

245
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,440
But otherwise, if they want a paywallet and the software is totally false, that's not illegal, right?

246
00:10:10,940 --> 00:10:15,600
But to me, the broader question is how should the world work?

247
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,420
And it's very obvious to me that anyone should be able to publish whatever they want, and this is where we come back to Web of Trust.

248
00:10:20,780 --> 00:10:38,820
Like if some random guy wants to publish Cali software and then Cali publishes it and they both publish it from their private keys, which have organic reputation in the ideal world. And this is what Zap store is trying to build. And we talked about maybe trying to attack the old world app stores is not the right sort of vector, the better vectors for LLMs, whatever.

249
00:10:38,820 --> 00:10:48,860
But in any way you want to distribute media or software or any kind of information, if you're doing it with a key that has reputation, anyone should be able to publish whatever they want.

250
00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:51,820
And I, as a user, should be able to decide with my own algo which one I want to download.

251
00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:56,620
I mean, haven't we dealt with a lot of these issues in Bitcoin itself?

252
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,600
Because people take free open source code.

253
00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:00,640
They make the name Bitcoin.

254
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,220
They make a logo for Bitcoin.

255
00:11:02,740 --> 00:11:04,360
They say this is the canonical one.

256
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:11,780
then people make bsv and b whatever xbtc and all these other things that sort of draft off of the

257
00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:16,900
brand recognition but then take it in a different direction for their own purposes bsv and what was

258
00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:21,080
their bitcoin gold there's all kinds of i don't know what xbtc is but i'm curious i'm now i'm

259
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:29,660
how's your trade going yeah exactly wasn't this one extreme btc or i forget what it was i thought

260
00:11:29,660 --> 00:11:34,780
this was in like the like extended btc or ultimate bitcoin ultimate wasn't that a thing

261
00:11:34,780 --> 00:11:40,680
there were so many diamonds that was a implementation of bitcoin like a oh okay so that was

262
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:46,060
legit see so i don't even know right like which ones are legit and what i don't know i don't know

263
00:11:46,060 --> 00:11:51,160
if i'd call it legit i mean it was a legitimate fork of bitcoin core software whether you like

264
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:59,280
that version of bitcoin is so it's like a like a knots competitor yes it was coined i believe it

265
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:06,280
coinbase is not's competitor okay yeah back when it was called uh what was it luke originally called

266
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,340
it like luke bitcoin or something or it was literally named after it yeah well that's a

267
00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:15,900
more accurate representation but my my point is we sort of we sort of have some precedent for how

268
00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:20,840
these things work and how names and confusion works in the bitcoin land the bit chat thing is

269
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,420
different in some ways but are there are there parallels or what can we learn from the parallels

270
00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:27,820
with how Bitcoin worked and works

271
00:12:27,820 --> 00:12:29,880
and kind of continues to build consensus

272
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,000
around the real one Bitcoin

273
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,000
that we all believe and care about

274
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,480
versus kind of all the other kind of brand draft,

275
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,740
you know, kind of brand affinity scamming that happens.

276
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:40,840
At least for app,

277
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:42,460
for the mobile phone app store,

278
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:44,100
it's the same issue exists.

279
00:12:44,420 --> 00:12:47,480
I mean, they don't allow multiple apps

280
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:48,860
with the same name.

281
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,540
So like, there's already an app called Bitcoin Wallet,

282
00:12:54,580 --> 00:12:55,280
so I can't come around.

283
00:12:55,420 --> 00:12:57,280
around and submit Bitcoin wallet.

284
00:12:58,340 --> 00:12:59,320
And, but

285
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,320
to me, it seems like, is it fair?

286
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:03,000
Well, it depends on

287
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,020
or it seems to me like

288
00:13:05,020 --> 00:13:07,180
in today's world with the rules we have

289
00:13:07,180 --> 00:13:08,260
and the app stores we have,

290
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,220
getting trademarked

291
00:13:11,220 --> 00:13:12,780
before you publish your open source software

292
00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:14,800
seems important

293
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,100
if you want to,

294
00:13:16,980 --> 00:13:19,200
if you're

295
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,820
intending to be a good steward

296
00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:22,900
of the software code base, which

297
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:24,980
you probably are if you created it and decided

298
00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:26,700
to release it to the world as a public good.

299
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,720
You probably want to get trademark

300
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,380
so that you can protect that.

301
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:32,800
Because even in the case,

302
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,160
like, yeah, if someone comes along

303
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:34,940
and submits it before you,

304
00:13:35,020 --> 00:13:35,740
they put a paywall,

305
00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:36,900
it's not scammy,

306
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,000
but it's not what you intended,

307
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,860
and then you can't get your app

308
00:13:40,860 --> 00:13:41,460
in the app store,

309
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:42,320
that seems like a problem.

310
00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:44,000
Or in the scenario where the person

311
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,880
submits it, gets it in the app store,

312
00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:47,000
and then they never maintain it.

313
00:13:47,460 --> 00:13:49,500
Like, I actually don't know

314
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:50,920
what the current policies are

315
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:51,440
from the app store.

316
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,780
Do they have any way

317
00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:54,940
to protect against that?

318
00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:58,280
I think you can provide, like you said,

319
00:13:58,340 --> 00:14:01,660
like if you own a trademark for BitChat.

320
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:02,880
I mean, without the trademark.

321
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:03,520
Without the trademark.

322
00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:04,560
You're saying if you don't have the trademark.

323
00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:05,760
Yeah, I don't know how.

324
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,140
If the first mover never then maintains it,

325
00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:11,740
and there's like a tremendously better version

326
00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:14,160
of the same software code base,

327
00:14:14,380 --> 00:14:16,020
the same name, and it can't get in the app store,

328
00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:18,380
that seems like society loses.

329
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:19,100
Totally.

330
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,520
And even from an Apple or Google perspective.

331
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:24,560
Yeah, they'd probably want.

332
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:25,200
They're losing.

333
00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:26,600
They want the better version.

334
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,080
Maintain software that people...

335
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,340
I don't know what the right answer there is.

336
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,500
It seems like, though, in today's world, the best practices get a trademark.

337
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,460
And getting the trademark takes a little bit of effort and money, right?

338
00:14:39,580 --> 00:14:39,860
Exactly.

339
00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:40,960
Like it's not money, time.

340
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,840
Wait, how long, how much are we...

341
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,820
You have to do a search.

342
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:45,420
You have to do an international search.

343
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:46,220
You have to apply.

344
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,100
And there's a ton of...

345
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:51,400
When you work with a lawyer to do this, it's minimum $5,000.

346
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:52,760
Are you serious?

347
00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:54,200
So that creates a barrier.

348
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,780
Especially if you want to go global.

349
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,640
And you're then obligated to defend the trademark.

350
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,520
So if anyone abuses it later, you might not want to lawyer up,

351
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,500
you might not want to go through that hassle,

352
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,720
but you have to to protect the trademark or you'll lose the trademark.

353
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,940
So then we can talk about delete IP, right?

354
00:15:14,980 --> 00:15:16,000
Let's just get rid of trademarks.

355
00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:18,060
But then we do get back to the problem of like,

356
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,100
okay, well then how do we solve the problem we're talking about?

357
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:22,940
You've proposed, you know,

358
00:15:22,940 --> 00:15:24,540
just anyone can publish whatever they want.

359
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:25,800
So let's explore that more.

360
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,300
So in some hypothetical store.

361
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:32,640
And it's not hypothetical, actually.

362
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:33,780
ZapStore is doing this now.

363
00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:37,020
Yeah, so a store that anyone can submit anything,

364
00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:38,640
then you can get Sybil attack.

365
00:15:38,780 --> 00:15:42,000
So there could literally be a billion bit chats in the store.

366
00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:47,580
But that doesn't bother me at all, right?

367
00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:51,240
Because the whole thesis of ZapStore

368
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,240
and the idea I'm going with is they're all signed by a private key

369
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:55,720
and those private keys have a reputation, right?

370
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,780
So it all comes back to Noster and the web of trust

371
00:15:57,780 --> 00:16:00,040
or even without Noster, just web of trust in general, right?

372
00:16:00,580 --> 00:16:02,000
Let's say there's a million different people

373
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,200
that submit a version of BitChat

374
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,220
and I know that Kali is the guy

375
00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:06,880
that submitted the first piece of software.

376
00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:08,700
I'm going to use the Kali version all day, every day.

377
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,380
And even if it's a new piece of software

378
00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:11,520
where I don't know the name,

379
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:12,280
I'm just going to be like,

380
00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:14,620
okay, what is DK using?

381
00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:16,180
I'm going to use theirs because I trust them.

382
00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:19,320
Or even if you don't know anyone involved,

383
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,000
but it's a situation where like one person's like not maintaining.

384
00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:24,760
And then there's a big uproar.

385
00:16:24,980 --> 00:16:29,460
Like people, like let's say the iPhone version is up to date

386
00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:30,860
and the Android version isn't.

387
00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:33,480
And then there's just a lot of social media and communication about that.

388
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,680
People are pissed off and there's a movement there.

389
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,420
Then they could boost the reputation or score or whatever

390
00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:43,160
of the latest version on Android and people would use it.

391
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,880
And the interesting thing here is like, look, I mean, even, I mean, again,

392
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,060
I come back to the problem is it's all the centralized choke points.

393
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,900
And I don't even think it's all like Apple and Google being necessarily bad actors.

394
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,380
Like obviously they want to take their cut.

395
00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:56,620
And in my dream world, IP is gone.

396
00:16:56,820 --> 00:16:59,700
No one can take their cut like by being sort of a troll on the bridge.

397
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:00,260
It's all open.

398
00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:04,200
But even like, even, you know, looking from Apple and Google's perspective and giving

399
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,080
them the benefit of the doubt, you made a great point as well.

400
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:11,900
Like it hurts them if they take the version of BitChat that's not being maintained.

401
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,440
Like they would much rather use, you know, quote unquote, the popular shelling point

402
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:17,060
for that app.

403
00:17:17,060 --> 00:17:18,480
but it's also like,

404
00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:19,940
it's just a pain in the ass for them too.

405
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:21,060
They have to hire reviewers.

406
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,480
I guess eventually AI will do more and more of this for them.

407
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:24,500
So maybe that's the solution.

408
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:24,840
But like,

409
00:17:25,180 --> 00:17:28,260
I imagine Apple and Google would like to say everyone submit and we're going

410
00:17:28,260 --> 00:17:32,280
to surface the one that has the most stars or downloads or whatever that is.

411
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,220
Like it seems like they would prefer that.

412
00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:34,820
Cool.

413
00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:35,500
I'm satisfied.

414
00:17:35,940 --> 00:17:36,080
Yeah.

415
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:36,500
I mean,

416
00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:36,980
thanks.

417
00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:37,380
But,

418
00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:37,500
but,

419
00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:37,860
but again,

420
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:39,940
I think to me that the challenge is,

421
00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:41,780
and this is what you were talking about last week,

422
00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:42,280
DK is like,

423
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:43,740
we have a cool version of Zap store.

424
00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:45,180
You know,

425
00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:45,960
obviously it's,

426
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,120
you can only, I think, use it with the APK on Android.

427
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:49,960
It's not user-friendly at all.

428
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,080
The problem is you can get the

429
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,220
cypherpunks playing with this stuff, but the normies

430
00:17:54,220 --> 00:17:56,260
and myself included that are primarily

431
00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:57,880
downloading from Apple or Google

432
00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,680
are not going to download this weird new stuff.

433
00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:01,920
So I think it kind of comes back to what we were discussing

434
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,040
last week. The best chance for a world like this to

435
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,060
thrive is just to completely

436
00:18:06,060 --> 00:18:08,220
shoot for the new. In the world where the LLMs

437
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:10,060
are pulling the apps, how do we

438
00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:11,840
make sure that that is radically open,

439
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,120
incorporates a web of trust? I think that's

440
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:18,160
our best shot. Like I strongly doubt, sadly, that we're going to solve this problem with Apple and

441
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:24,220
Google. I would love to be wrong, but I don't see it. And so what does that look like though? Is it

442
00:18:24,220 --> 00:18:31,660
that you're relying on an LLM that you're chatting with to do the kind of web of trust investigation

443
00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:35,220
on your behalf? Yeah. I mean, I think it's kind of like what you were saying last week. It's like,

444
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,100
I don't know exactly what the form factor is going to be. And this actually gets to one of

445
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:43,200
your topics you wanted to discuss. Like imagine if the phone is no longer running and, you know,

446
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,120
I guess we can talk about it now.

447
00:18:44,180 --> 00:18:47,320
You mentioned Elon saying the phone no longer is going to run apps,

448
00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:50,480
but it's basically just going to be an interface for your assistant,

449
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,540
for your Ani, to help you pull the software that you need

450
00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:55,540
to do whatever you need in the world.

451
00:18:55,540 --> 00:19:01,700
And so in that world, you may conjure on demand and say,

452
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,740
hey, I need to be able to communicate with other people

453
00:19:06,740 --> 00:19:10,220
that are using the whatever white noise protocol,

454
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,960
which is what's happening beneath BitChat.

455
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,600
and you say, I want you to download the necessary tooling

456
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,260
or whatever you need to access this protocol.

457
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,300
And first, maybe you could say,

458
00:19:22,420 --> 00:19:27,360
surface me a UI right now that shows me the different,

459
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,040
whatever, the five most popular versions of this protocol

460
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,220
and show me which of my friends are using which

461
00:19:33,220 --> 00:19:35,820
or which of the people that I follow on Twitter or Nostra

462
00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:36,680
or whatever are using that.

463
00:19:37,020 --> 00:19:37,980
And I choose that one.

464
00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:42,700
Or I just say, Grok, Ani, whoever,

465
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,940
do this for me, you know my preferences,

466
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,760
if there's a problem, I'll talk to you and let you update it.

467
00:19:48,260 --> 00:19:49,720
I don't know exactly what it's going to look like,

468
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:50,620
but I actually think, yeah,

469
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:51,860
I think you had some pretty good ideas

470
00:19:51,860 --> 00:19:52,720
around that last week, so.

471
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:56,240
Yeah, we'll see.

472
00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,900
I think a lot of these things are going to be,

473
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,760
you know, they need new interfaces.

474
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,360
And I think the idea of like re, you know,

475
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,980
competing against the old style of like,

476
00:20:09,220 --> 00:20:10,420
take an app store and make it open

477
00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:11,180
or make it decentralized

478
00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:12,760
probably doesn't make as much sense.

479
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:27,020
I have been thinking, I think we had a topic we were talking about GitHub and sort of how it's sort of related is how does, you know, I think was GitHub recently the leadership change within Microsoft.

480
00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:33,580
So now it's more tightly held or maybe more, more, even more centrally controlled than maybe it was before.

481
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:34,580
I thought that I saw some.

482
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,280
Their CEO left and they didn't, they're not going to replace the CEO.

483
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:50,040
So instead, GitHub reports straight to the core AI team, which suggests less independence than they've had the past six or seven years or whatever.

484
00:20:50,040 --> 00:21:00,280
Right. And we've talked about the risk of centralized GitHub to Bitcoin, because Bitcoin lives on GitHub and that's where people go to find it often.

485
00:21:01,020 --> 00:21:07,600
So if Microsoft decided they didn't like Bitcoin, you'd kind of wonder, well, what are you going to do about that?

486
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,280
So I think having a new place to host that would be interesting.

487
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,860
But I think it all kind of touches on similar themes, which is like, how are we going to access information in the future?

488
00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:19,000
How is software going to be built in the future?

489
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:20,960
How is collaboration around software going to be built?

490
00:21:21,260 --> 00:21:30,800
And all of these, in a sense, are like themes that weave and feed into each other that probably determine somewhat like the final interface for this.

491
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,520
but it does feel like

492
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:33,320
it does feel like

493
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,720
something chat based

494
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,440
seems like a likely

495
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,820
interface to access it

496
00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:38,260
but I don't know

497
00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:38,920
that it's going through

498
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,120
a centralized provider chat

499
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:40,740
or if there are

500
00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:42,080
maybe there's

501
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:42,760
maybe there's something

502
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,000
like an open source

503
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,060
you know

504
00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:46,780
maybe it's like

505
00:21:46,780 --> 00:21:48,360
a Noster style chat

506
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:49,060
where you can chat

507
00:21:49,060 --> 00:21:50,060
into the service

508
00:21:50,060 --> 00:21:50,880
and then it dispatches

509
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,080
to a bunch of different services

510
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,180
but you control

511
00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:53,620
sort of

512
00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:54,400
which services

513
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,720
it chooses to use

514
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:56,180
and some of them

515
00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:56,960
are maybe open source

516
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,400
and some of them

517
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:57,760
are closed

518
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:58,420
and they have different

519
00:21:58,420 --> 00:21:59,660
kind of cost quality

520
00:21:59,660 --> 00:22:00,640
performance trade-offs

521
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,020
I think one thing that could look really cool around this is

522
00:22:05,020 --> 00:22:09,220
I like this idea that maybe the future is like a mashup of

523
00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:13,360
something a chatbot can access, but maybe a mashup of GitHub

524
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,540
and an app store, because it's like, what's the difference between the software and the app itself?

525
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,780
Increasingly, if you don't actually need to run the app on your phone, there kind of is none, right?

526
00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:22,940
And so maybe it looks more in the direction of GitHub.

527
00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,920
I could see if it's a very simple first example of this. Imagine you have

528
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:34,440
just like a giant database. And I guess what you need to agree on is the NIPs or the standards,

529
00:22:34,540 --> 00:22:37,940
like I'm thinking in NOSTER terms. And so what you would do is you would say, okay,

530
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:42,500
I publish a piece of information, right? So the standard is there's a piece of information,

531
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:48,340
that's the payload or whatever. Then you have the private key or associated with the public key

532
00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:52,160
who published it. Okay, great. And then with that, you can start to do some of the reputation stuff.

533
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,080
And then maybe you have to agree on like the kinds, and maybe that's even too restrictive.

534
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,260
Maybe there's like a more flexible way to do it, but you could do the kinds, right?

535
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:03,600
And so as an example, imagine one kind is, you know, a mini app or a piece of software.

536
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:04,000
Great.

537
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,900
So I know these are all mini apps that are compatible with the specific chatbot, Grok,

538
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:09,840
or whatever that I'm using.

539
00:23:10,220 --> 00:23:13,060
And then maybe you can have other kinds of, you know, pieces of information as well.

540
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,880
It's like, yes, this is, you know, a long form essay.

541
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,240
I guess we already have that, our kind one.

542
00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:19,680
This is a short form, you know, piece of information.

543
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,200
And like at some level, I guess what's cool about this is the more flexible you could

544
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,160
make this giant database, like there is no difference.

545
00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:32,820
I mean, there really is no difference between a tweet, an essay, and a piece of code.

546
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,160
It's all just text.

547
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:35,220
Right.

548
00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:38,540
So how do we get there?

549
00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:40,840
I don't know what that first step is.

550
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:50,180
I mean, one way is just maybe building better tools to like surface and search different

551
00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:52,280
kinds that different people publish

552
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,320
and maybe also propose a kind for software.

553
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,160
Which I don't know if the guys

554
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,980
working on the Nostra GitHub

555
00:23:57,980 --> 00:23:59,580
clones already did that.

556
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:01,920
Is there anybody building

557
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,300
application development,

558
00:24:04,380 --> 00:24:05,960
let's call it vibe coding tools,

559
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,880
where the ultimate destination

560
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,000
for serving that

561
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,740
is on Nostra?

562
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:13,140
I think Alex Gleason is.

563
00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:15,880
Or Soapbox.

564
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,560
I haven't played with it much recently, but

565
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,580
I think he's probably...

566
00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:21,540
He and Pablo are probably for this down that line.

567
00:24:21,940 --> 00:24:23,080
Because it feels like you're listening.

568
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,260
Alex, let us know.

569
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:53,391
Yeah I mean it feels like something in that vein is sort of like helps people create things and helps those things kind of naturally live in an uncontrolled environment and helps more collaboration where people can sort of hop in and take it in their own direction But it sort of lives on a substrate If it can live in a substrate that doesn require like okay you know clone the repo from GitHub and I run it on my own servers Like it a much more you know either that environment or something like a repli which is

570
00:24:53,391 --> 00:24:57,511
very easy to use and wonderful for prototyping, but ultimately you're kind of in their ecosystem

571
00:24:57,511 --> 00:25:03,551
and you're not, in a sense, like you're not as open as you would be if you sort of could do a

572
00:25:03,551 --> 00:25:08,571
similar type of thing in a more Noster native way. But what do you mean even substrate, right?

573
00:25:08,571 --> 00:25:12,811
Because I think you could have different interfaces along the way as you progress on this.

574
00:25:13,251 --> 00:25:19,651
But it isn't the interface itself just basically a database, just a piece of information, a kind, and an author.

575
00:25:20,311 --> 00:25:21,891
And that's all just stored on Nostra Relays.

576
00:25:22,411 --> 00:25:24,251
But you need some code to execute somewhere.

577
00:25:24,591 --> 00:25:28,591
I want to do a query to pull the data and use it in a certain way.

578
00:25:29,091 --> 00:25:31,911
So is that a function of a relay?

579
00:25:31,911 --> 00:25:38,251
Is that another type of decentralized relay-like infrastructure that's more like a code operation infrastructure?

580
00:25:38,251 --> 00:25:50,031
I think Whole Punch Explore is doing this in the web browser via JavaScript and sort of has all the apps served among peers in JavaScript in the browser.

581
00:25:50,951 --> 00:25:55,171
So I think we need some idea of like, where does the compute happen?

582
00:25:55,291 --> 00:25:56,491
Not just where's the data stored?

583
00:25:58,031 --> 00:25:58,991
Quick question.

584
00:25:59,211 --> 00:26:01,551
Alex, can you click comment on this?

585
00:26:01,671 --> 00:26:03,611
We're trying new software.

586
00:26:03,911 --> 00:26:04,771
Oh, perfect.

587
00:26:05,431 --> 00:26:05,891
There we go.

588
00:26:06,051 --> 00:26:06,331
All right.

589
00:26:06,331 --> 00:26:07,091
We do have an audience.

590
00:26:07,091 --> 00:26:07,891
Oh, nice.

591
00:26:08,251 --> 00:26:09,791
Oh, Austin.

592
00:26:11,751 --> 00:26:14,171
Well, perhaps we'll start.

593
00:26:14,891 --> 00:26:16,651
I wasn't going to discuss this too much,

594
00:26:16,771 --> 00:26:19,911
but my guy, Andy, is asking me in the chat if I am all right.

595
00:26:20,311 --> 00:26:21,311
Andy, we'll have to chat more.

596
00:26:21,511 --> 00:26:23,031
I am, in fact, not all right.

597
00:26:23,091 --> 00:26:24,031
Why would you not be all right?

598
00:26:24,331 --> 00:26:25,011
Oh, you don't know this.

599
00:26:25,011 --> 00:26:27,231
I won't go into all the details,

600
00:26:27,651 --> 00:26:30,111
but Andy took me for a ride this week,

601
00:26:30,171 --> 00:26:31,491
and I am currently in a boot.

602
00:26:32,171 --> 00:26:35,091
On the plus side, I told Steve I looked like Tyrese Hunter

603
00:26:35,091 --> 00:26:36,171
when he was out for the Memphis game,

604
00:26:36,211 --> 00:26:36,991
so I got some swag.

605
00:26:36,991 --> 00:26:38,991
I'm rocking the boot with swag

606
00:26:38,991 --> 00:26:40,471
no I'm not

607
00:26:40,471 --> 00:26:45,331
I thought you said Tyrese Halliburton

608
00:26:45,331 --> 00:26:47,691
but it could apply to either Tyrese

609
00:26:47,691 --> 00:26:50,591
I always thought I'd kind of look like a Tyrese

610
00:26:50,591 --> 00:26:53,291
alright cool back on track

611
00:26:53,291 --> 00:26:57,751
I haven't caught up on all of Austin's participation here

612
00:26:57,751 --> 00:27:01,891
did you guys catch Wild West App Store

613
00:27:01,891 --> 00:27:03,591
doesn't bother me if things are signed

614
00:27:03,591 --> 00:27:04,491
people figure it out

615
00:27:04,491 --> 00:27:06,931
any little tidbits there?

616
00:27:06,991 --> 00:27:08,051
or do you want to change topic?

617
00:27:09,011 --> 00:27:09,891
No, let's move on.

618
00:27:09,971 --> 00:27:10,731
We get a lot of topics.

619
00:27:10,911 --> 00:27:11,011
Yeah.

620
00:27:11,091 --> 00:27:11,251
Okay.

621
00:27:13,311 --> 00:27:14,411
One thing,

622
00:27:14,871 --> 00:27:15,031
yeah,

623
00:27:15,271 --> 00:27:15,971
one thing,

624
00:27:16,231 --> 00:27:17,851
maybe it is before we move on,

625
00:27:18,031 --> 00:27:19,891
I thought that in Callie's tweet,

626
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:20,591
he'd mentioned something

627
00:27:20,591 --> 00:27:22,191
about how he is the copyright owner.

628
00:27:23,191 --> 00:27:24,431
Does that ring a bell?

629
00:27:25,751 --> 00:27:25,971
No.

630
00:27:26,791 --> 00:27:28,591
But we already discussed that though.

631
00:27:29,491 --> 00:27:29,891
Well,

632
00:27:30,051 --> 00:27:31,171
I didn't understand that part.

633
00:27:31,231 --> 00:27:32,631
That's why I was just revisiting.

634
00:27:33,211 --> 00:27:35,091
Well, he is the copyright holder

635
00:27:35,091 --> 00:27:36,291
of the Android code base

636
00:27:36,291 --> 00:27:36,711
because he,

637
00:27:36,991 --> 00:27:37,791
created it.

638
00:27:38,391 --> 00:27:42,911
But anyone who contributes more

639
00:27:42,911 --> 00:27:43,951
is the copyright holder

640
00:27:43,951 --> 00:27:45,031
for whatever they contribute.

641
00:27:46,071 --> 00:27:47,091
And also, like I said,

642
00:27:47,871 --> 00:27:49,391
my LLM sleuthing suggests

643
00:27:49,391 --> 00:27:51,351
that doesn't play a role

644
00:27:51,351 --> 00:27:53,411
in deciding who gets to submit

645
00:27:53,411 --> 00:27:54,031
to the App Store.

646
00:27:54,351 --> 00:27:54,451
Yeah.

647
00:27:54,711 --> 00:27:56,011
Well, just one last comment on that,

648
00:27:56,051 --> 00:27:57,371
and maybe we can chat more about the chat

649
00:27:57,371 --> 00:27:58,131
at a higher level

650
00:27:58,131 --> 00:27:59,051
because there's a lot to say on that.

651
00:27:59,451 --> 00:28:01,611
I think that anything that requires

652
00:28:01,611 --> 00:28:02,651
an open source dev,

653
00:28:02,711 --> 00:28:03,411
particularly a NEM,

654
00:28:03,511 --> 00:28:05,391
to spend substantial money,

655
00:28:05,391 --> 00:28:05,931
anything over,

656
00:28:05,931 --> 00:28:08,711
really any amount of money or a substantial amount of time

657
00:28:08,711 --> 00:28:10,871
or even talk with a lawyer? Do you really think the NEMs

658
00:28:10,871 --> 00:28:13,171
want to talk with lawyers? That to me is a non-starter.

659
00:28:14,171 --> 00:28:15,051
I get it.

660
00:28:15,151 --> 00:28:16,571
If that's what you have to do to cut it.

661
00:28:16,671 --> 00:28:18,431
That's today's world, I think, but it's

662
00:28:18,431 --> 00:28:20,151
big friction and barrier.

663
00:28:20,551 --> 00:28:22,671
If you have to do that to be compatible with the

664
00:28:22,671 --> 00:28:24,791
legacy world, so be it. But we have

665
00:28:24,791 --> 00:28:26,371
to aim for a world. Maybe AI is part of this.

666
00:28:26,451 --> 00:28:28,191
You're already using LLM. I was using LLM

667
00:28:28,191 --> 00:28:30,771
as a doctor this morning. You're using it for a lawyer.

668
00:28:30,911 --> 00:28:32,331
Maybe that helps solve a lot of the problems.

669
00:28:32,851 --> 00:28:34,731
But it's a non-starter moving forward

670
00:28:34,731 --> 00:28:36,491
if we want the free and open world

671
00:28:36,491 --> 00:28:37,471
that I think all of us do.

672
00:28:38,511 --> 00:28:38,871
Yeah.

673
00:28:39,491 --> 00:28:39,711
Cool.

674
00:28:40,131 --> 00:28:41,491
Can we talk about BitChat in general?

675
00:28:41,671 --> 00:28:42,391
Not just the copyright.

676
00:28:42,511 --> 00:28:43,271
Let's talk about BitChat.

677
00:28:43,651 --> 00:28:45,451
Because I'm getting fired up about this.

678
00:28:45,531 --> 00:28:47,031
So I just want to mention maybe a little bit

679
00:28:47,031 --> 00:28:47,951
what I'm getting excited about.

680
00:28:48,071 --> 00:28:50,671
I know Steve, as the resident contributor here,

681
00:28:50,751 --> 00:28:52,551
hope I have a lot to say on BitChat as well.

682
00:28:53,051 --> 00:28:55,831
But I just have to say, it is so fucking cool.

683
00:28:56,451 --> 00:28:58,311
And honestly, shout out to Jack

684
00:28:58,311 --> 00:29:00,571
because that man always has a vision.

685
00:29:00,991 --> 00:29:03,891
And I didn't see him taking this step,

686
00:29:03,891 --> 00:29:07,051
but the more I see it, the more I see the way the pieces are coming together, and it's fucking cool.

687
00:29:07,511 --> 00:29:13,231
So for those of you who don't know, so BitChat, just as a reminder, it started off as a mesh

688
00:29:13,231 --> 00:29:17,411
network, right? So you download BitChat, you can chat with other people that are within

689
00:29:17,411 --> 00:29:21,731
whatever the radius is in your mesh, which is your Bluetooth, and in theory, you can route

690
00:29:21,731 --> 00:29:25,691
messages over different hops in your Bluetooth network. A lot of cool things you could do with

691
00:29:25,691 --> 00:29:29,911
that. We discussed on prior episodes of PBJ, if you want to go find the earlier episodes,

692
00:29:29,911 --> 00:29:36,051
where might this be used? I believe concerts and other peer-to-peer exchanges were some of the

693
00:29:36,051 --> 00:29:41,031
ideas that we bandied about. The coolest thing though that just dropped is, I don't know if it

694
00:29:41,031 --> 00:29:47,991
was just yesterday or today, but Jack announced geohashing. And geohashing is super dope because

695
00:29:47,991 --> 00:29:57,051
basically when you engage in your first peer-to-peer or like local mesh chat, now that also

696
00:29:57,051 --> 00:30:02,971
includes with it a geohash, which you can think of as like a zip code for wherever you are on the

697
00:30:02,971 --> 00:30:07,071
internet. But it's cool because the zip code doesn't like docks all of your exact GPS location.

698
00:30:07,151 --> 00:30:09,291
Wherever you are on the internet or wherever you are in the world.

699
00:30:09,331 --> 00:30:13,791
Sorry, sorry. Wherever you are in the physical world, wherever you are in the physical world,

700
00:30:13,791 --> 00:30:18,571
but accessing, I guess, over the internet to reach different people. So what's super cool now is you

701
00:30:18,571 --> 00:30:22,471
have like a zip code, but it's not a super docksing zip code. And then you start thinking, well,

702
00:30:22,511 --> 00:30:26,591
what kind of cool stuff can you do with that? Well, one cool thing you can do with that is there's

703
00:30:26,591 --> 00:30:30,731
an app I love called Radio.Garden. It's one of my favorite apps of all time. I found this,

704
00:30:30,731 --> 00:30:35,071
by the way, on Stackin News. So shout out to the Cypherpunk community that always finds the cool

705
00:30:35,071 --> 00:30:39,291
stuff. And Radio.Garden allows you just to basically take a little cursor and move it

706
00:30:39,291 --> 00:30:44,611
anywhere around the globe and listen to all the radio stations and all the cool local radio

707
00:30:44,611 --> 00:30:48,451
stations in that frequency. So you can go to Argentina or Japan or wherever. It's awesome.

708
00:30:48,551 --> 00:30:52,311
I love that app. And immediately, that was the first thing that clicked for me. I was like,

709
00:30:52,351 --> 00:30:56,571
oh, this is super cool. I could just go and zoom out. We have our tiny whatever little

710
00:30:56,571 --> 00:31:00,871
district here in San Francisco. I wonder what people are talking about in Buenos Aires. I wonder

711
00:31:00,871 --> 00:31:04,531
what people are talking about in Seoul. I wonder what people are talking about in Nigeria. Obviously,

712
00:31:04,531 --> 00:31:09,351
it's not everywhere yet. But Steve showed us, I think, a map, a heat map this morning. It's like

713
00:31:09,351 --> 00:31:13,051
popping off in different parts around the world. So obviously, there's a lot to do with it.

714
00:31:13,151 --> 00:31:18,911
How does that work? So if I were at PBJ right now, I would obviously be able to connect to you via

715
00:31:18,911 --> 00:31:24,891
Mesh. Since I'm not there, can I access, do I have to talk to you to figure out what the

716
00:31:24,891 --> 00:31:29,871
the geo hashes for any location in the world.

717
00:31:30,311 --> 00:31:31,931
So they all listed in the app,

718
00:31:32,031 --> 00:31:33,931
what all the available locations are.

719
00:31:34,671 --> 00:31:35,871
That's actually a great question.

720
00:31:35,991 --> 00:31:37,311
So let me check right now.

721
00:31:37,871 --> 00:31:38,051
The,

722
00:31:38,371 --> 00:31:39,111
as I recall,

723
00:31:39,351 --> 00:31:43,171
you can choose some specific areas.

724
00:31:43,271 --> 00:31:44,271
So I'm going to go right now.

725
00:31:44,671 --> 00:31:46,011
So I can find,

726
00:31:46,791 --> 00:31:47,151
uh,

727
00:31:47,151 --> 00:31:48,051
in real time,

728
00:31:48,051 --> 00:31:52,491
I can choose to go like to my country or to my district or whatever.

729
00:31:52,491 --> 00:31:57,331
Right now, you do have to plug in specific zip codes or geohashes.

730
00:31:57,811 --> 00:32:03,611
And so the most popular one right now is 21M, 21 million, 21M, three characters.

731
00:32:04,051 --> 00:32:06,231
And there's currently 47 people in that chat.

732
00:32:07,091 --> 00:32:09,611
That sounds like that's not a location, that's a topic.

733
00:32:09,931 --> 00:32:10,571
Oh, okay.

734
00:32:10,711 --> 00:32:13,311
So maybe you can do both topics and locations.

735
00:32:13,631 --> 00:32:16,751
Well, I don't, I'm just, it sounds like a topic, not a location.

736
00:32:16,911 --> 00:32:17,871
It's a good point.

737
00:32:18,011 --> 00:32:19,551
This could be a global chat.

738
00:32:20,331 --> 00:32:22,271
My guess would be this would be like for everyone.

739
00:32:22,271 --> 00:32:24,351
I'm not sure how they created that.

740
00:32:24,711 --> 00:32:25,111
But it's cool.

741
00:32:25,211 --> 00:32:28,791
I mean, I'm looking right now, and in real time, I'm seeing 47 people.

742
00:32:29,231 --> 00:32:30,951
There's like a tremendous amount of conversation.

743
00:32:32,131 --> 00:32:36,811
Some Arabic, some English, some definitely.

744
00:32:37,371 --> 00:32:39,951
I'm going to be a little more critical about this.

745
00:32:42,451 --> 00:32:46,871
I mean, Google Buzz launched 15 plus years ago.

746
00:32:47,211 --> 00:32:47,311
Right.

747
00:32:48,031 --> 00:32:50,271
I was part of that launch.

748
00:32:50,271 --> 00:32:59,231
And it's cool initially when people all around the world are geotagging their messages and you can pop into those different locations.

749
00:32:59,651 --> 00:33:04,591
But for that to be success, I mean, first of all, Google Buzz was a failure.

750
00:33:06,011 --> 00:33:11,731
And for it to be successful is more than just enabling geohashes and geotags.

751
00:33:11,991 --> 00:33:15,691
Because the quality of the conversation matters tremendously.

752
00:33:15,991 --> 00:33:16,211
Totally.

753
00:33:16,211 --> 00:33:19,971
So I'm not saying BitChad's going to fail at this.

754
00:33:19,971 --> 00:33:21,811
I'm just saying the details really matter.

755
00:33:24,271 --> 00:33:27,331
Because if it becomes popular,

756
00:33:28,771 --> 00:33:31,391
the quality will get diluted.

757
00:33:31,851 --> 00:33:34,471
And we kind of saw that on Clubhouse a few years ago as well.

758
00:33:34,791 --> 00:33:36,911
Clubhouse was initially amazing.

759
00:33:37,951 --> 00:33:40,911
And then when it grew, then the quality decreased.

760
00:33:42,411 --> 00:33:46,251
And also, I'd hope that BitChap is careful

761
00:33:46,251 --> 00:33:47,451
about introducing this.

762
00:33:47,451 --> 00:33:50,571
because the mesh network

763
00:33:50,571 --> 00:33:52,511
like with the mesh network

764
00:33:52,511 --> 00:33:54,591
I see a path

765
00:33:54,591 --> 00:33:55,971
for high quality signal

766
00:33:55,971 --> 00:33:58,651
because you start with people

767
00:33:58,651 --> 00:34:00,571
who are physically proximate to you

768
00:34:00,571 --> 00:34:02,671
you likely have some kind of

769
00:34:02,671 --> 00:34:04,571
affinity with them if not

770
00:34:04,571 --> 00:34:06,631
the location, the event you're at or you're

771
00:34:06,631 --> 00:34:08,571
literally next to them

772
00:34:08,571 --> 00:34:10,591
in person so there's all

773
00:34:10,591 --> 00:34:12,751
kinds of reasons to believe that's going to be substantial

774
00:34:12,751 --> 00:34:14,651
relationship formed

775
00:34:14,651 --> 00:34:15,691
and

776
00:34:15,691 --> 00:34:17,171
content

777
00:34:17,171 --> 00:34:20,471
and then I really liked the Nostra integration

778
00:34:20,471 --> 00:34:23,011
because then you can then carry over

779
00:34:23,011 --> 00:34:25,851
to communicate with that person wherever that in the world

780
00:34:25,851 --> 00:34:28,271
but you start with this initial high quality.

781
00:34:28,271 --> 00:34:28,731
Totally.

782
00:34:28,951 --> 00:34:29,951
So I love all that.

783
00:34:31,851 --> 00:34:35,251
A little concerned with this stuff

784
00:34:35,251 --> 00:34:39,271
because let's say that teleporting to a location

785
00:34:39,271 --> 00:34:43,411
if like almost all the people

786
00:34:43,411 --> 00:34:46,171
that are part of a particular community in that location

787
00:34:46,171 --> 00:34:52,251
aren't at that location that just and they're and they're not just reading but they're writing

788
00:34:52,251 --> 00:34:57,451
right then it doesn't like does it really have anything to do with that location

789
00:34:57,451 --> 00:35:05,551
should be a two-tier system then where if you're at the location or you're favorited by people at

790
00:35:05,551 --> 00:35:10,471
the location you can both read and write and if you're just like an observer like you want to go

791
00:35:10,471 --> 00:35:15,911
to buenos aires or whatever you can read everything but you can't really chat or maybe you can chat

792
00:35:15,911 --> 00:35:21,111
in like a secondary side chat or like almost like the distinction between the stage and the audience

793
00:35:21,111 --> 00:35:26,031
in clubhouse i wonder if you had like the location and the spectators kind of with a stronger

794
00:35:26,031 --> 00:35:32,191
distinction so that they don't sort of get the the pool muddied yeah i agree with uh that or at

795
00:35:32,191 --> 00:35:42,011
exploring that um uh and or uh indication in the ui for the people within um a room or channel

796
00:35:42,011 --> 00:35:42,691
or whatever it's called,

797
00:35:42,951 --> 00:35:43,551
of like,

798
00:35:43,671 --> 00:35:45,171
just have an icon next to them

799
00:35:45,171 --> 00:35:45,431
like,

800
00:35:45,931 --> 00:35:46,531
that indicates

801
00:35:46,531 --> 00:35:47,831
they are actually there

802
00:35:47,831 --> 00:35:48,891
versus they're not.

803
00:35:49,151 --> 00:35:49,511
I agree.

804
00:35:50,331 --> 00:35:50,771
That,

805
00:35:50,891 --> 00:35:52,231
that should be explored

806
00:35:52,231 --> 00:35:53,191
as well.

807
00:35:53,411 --> 00:35:53,711
And actually,

808
00:35:53,811 --> 00:35:53,911
let,

809
00:35:54,151 --> 00:35:54,891
let me plug,

810
00:35:55,671 --> 00:35:55,791
we're,

811
00:35:55,991 --> 00:35:57,211
we've talked before

812
00:35:57,211 --> 00:35:57,671
on the show

813
00:35:57,671 --> 00:35:59,291
once or twice about

814
00:35:59,291 --> 00:36:00,671
Presidio Bitcoin's

815
00:36:00,671 --> 00:36:01,091
going to host

816
00:36:01,091 --> 00:36:02,311
a Bitcoin design week

817
00:36:02,311 --> 00:36:03,431
the middle of September.

818
00:36:03,791 --> 00:36:04,151
That ass.

819
00:36:04,251 --> 00:36:05,371
The week of September 15th

820
00:36:05,371 --> 00:36:05,971
and 19th.

821
00:36:07,451 --> 00:36:08,631
So people should check

822
00:36:08,631 --> 00:36:09,331
that out in general,

823
00:36:09,451 --> 00:36:09,591
but

824
00:36:09,591 --> 00:36:10,471
I'll,

825
00:36:10,471 --> 00:36:14,391
a segment that I'll be leading is on BitChat.

826
00:36:14,771 --> 00:36:16,931
So like BitChat, design sprints,

827
00:36:17,051 --> 00:36:18,311
vibe coding and exploring things

828
00:36:18,311 --> 00:36:20,211
like we're talking about right now.

829
00:36:20,411 --> 00:36:24,611
So I'd love to explore with talented designers,

830
00:36:24,951 --> 00:36:27,231
attract Silicon Valley and designers,

831
00:36:27,371 --> 00:36:29,291
big tech designers to come to help explore

832
00:36:29,291 --> 00:36:34,011
how should BitChat proceed to this

833
00:36:34,011 --> 00:36:34,951
and solve some of these problems,

834
00:36:35,271 --> 00:36:39,691
ensure that the quality of the conversations are high.

835
00:36:39,691 --> 00:36:41,171
and take advantage of it.

836
00:36:41,591 --> 00:36:43,231
All the reasons you're excited about it,

837
00:36:43,611 --> 00:36:45,651
I share that enthusiasm.

838
00:36:46,551 --> 00:36:48,471
I had that same enthusiasm with Google Buzz

839
00:36:48,471 --> 00:36:50,111
and then saw how it fails.

840
00:36:50,231 --> 00:36:51,611
And then same with Clubhouse, saw how that fails.

841
00:36:51,991 --> 00:36:55,831
So I'm only pointing out that it's a really big challenge.

842
00:36:56,171 --> 00:36:59,251
So how can we best guide BitChat to avoid those pitfalls?

843
00:36:59,491 --> 00:37:00,251
I love all that.

844
00:37:00,311 --> 00:37:02,071
And I think we should actually take one step back

845
00:37:02,071 --> 00:37:02,691
because you mentioned,

846
00:37:02,811 --> 00:37:04,071
and I don't think we've explicitly,

847
00:37:04,271 --> 00:37:05,451
at least on this show, explained that,

848
00:37:05,491 --> 00:37:06,651
that it uses Nostra, right?

849
00:37:06,651 --> 00:37:09,071
And so the key piece is when you're local

850
00:37:09,071 --> 00:37:10,091
with someone in person,

851
00:37:10,631 --> 00:37:12,191
you speak over Bluetooth,

852
00:37:12,511 --> 00:37:13,191
so over the mesh.

853
00:37:13,711 --> 00:37:15,351
However, once you leave,

854
00:37:15,691 --> 00:37:16,411
so let's say, you know,

855
00:37:16,471 --> 00:37:17,191
DK right now,

856
00:37:17,451 --> 00:37:19,351
if we've already favorited each other,

857
00:37:19,771 --> 00:37:20,851
you know, which we did

858
00:37:20,851 --> 00:37:21,771
when you were in the office,

859
00:37:21,851 --> 00:37:22,871
although I think there might be an issue,

860
00:37:22,931 --> 00:37:23,351
we have to refavor,

861
00:37:23,411 --> 00:37:23,971
I don't know, but anyways,

862
00:37:24,411 --> 00:37:25,771
still early.

863
00:37:25,771 --> 00:37:28,531
My favorite Pedro has gone to sleep.

864
00:37:28,791 --> 00:37:29,871
There's a little moon icon.

865
00:37:30,231 --> 00:37:31,611
I don't know what you're talking about, bro.

866
00:37:32,611 --> 00:37:33,251
Don't be laughing.

867
00:37:33,251 --> 00:37:35,371
Sorry, sorry, this was some doctor, you know.

868
00:37:35,551 --> 00:37:37,331
Yeah, shit, live too.

869
00:37:37,751 --> 00:37:38,331
Fuck, man.

870
00:37:38,331 --> 00:37:40,971
I talked to myself a long time ago.

871
00:37:42,231 --> 00:37:46,191
Anyways, what's cool is, as Steve mentioned,

872
00:37:46,831 --> 00:37:50,751
you're then in the background communicating over Nostra Relays

873
00:37:50,751 --> 00:37:51,731
to share those messages.

874
00:37:52,331 --> 00:37:55,431
And so there's so, so, so, so many cool things about all this.

875
00:37:55,431 --> 00:37:57,791
And I should mention, first of all,

876
00:37:57,871 --> 00:37:59,371
I love that you're going to do this during design week.

877
00:37:59,451 --> 00:38:00,831
There's so much to explore here.

878
00:38:01,791 --> 00:38:04,871
And I'm just obviously saying some things get me excited today.

879
00:38:04,871 --> 00:38:09,011
But what excites me the most is, one, there's a critical mass.

880
00:38:09,491 --> 00:38:13,131
I mean, there was last week or two weeks ago, 100,000 people plus who have downloaded it around the world.

881
00:38:13,231 --> 00:38:15,511
I'm sure it's much more now as it's popping off again.

882
00:38:15,631 --> 00:38:17,111
So there's interest in the app.

883
00:38:17,511 --> 00:38:18,871
The app looks nice.

884
00:38:19,031 --> 00:38:19,831
It works.

885
00:38:20,211 --> 00:38:24,851
It's not super slow and buggy, which I love Nostra, and I love all the cool stuff we have there.

886
00:38:24,891 --> 00:38:28,591
But a lot of times, it starts off pretty hood for the cypherpunks, which is fine.

887
00:38:28,851 --> 00:38:31,391
But this is something I can show to a normie, and they can get it.

888
00:38:31,451 --> 00:38:31,931
They'll use it.

889
00:38:31,971 --> 00:38:32,271
It's cool.

890
00:38:32,271 --> 00:38:39,971
and so what I see is we have a um I see the potential we have a hot bed a core of people

891
00:38:39,971 --> 00:38:45,611
who are using Nostra and I would argue you know maybe other than Primal and Domus maybe it's

892
00:38:45,611 --> 00:38:48,931
already even overtaken them this is the most used Nostra app in the world right now and no one knows

893
00:38:48,931 --> 00:38:54,691
that it's using Nostra which I love and so what I see coming next to all this and okay some of the

894
00:38:54,691 --> 00:38:57,691
questions you asked right like how do you know if someone's in that location all these different

895
00:38:57,691 --> 00:39:03,271
things. That to me is the exact same question and the exact same answer as the app store.

896
00:39:04,411 --> 00:39:08,631
Right? Like the way we're going to do that is web of trust. And I don't know exactly what that's

897
00:39:08,631 --> 00:39:12,891
going to look like, but it's going to be like, okay, well, this person, you know, DK, Max, and

898
00:39:12,891 --> 00:39:19,811
Steve all mutually favored each other. So that, um, you know, builds out to saying, we know that

899
00:39:19,811 --> 00:39:23,571
at least according to these guys, they started in San Francisco and then you kind of build from

900
00:39:23,571 --> 00:39:25,651
there. Well, meaning

901
00:39:25,651 --> 00:39:26,971
you're trying to

902
00:39:26,971 --> 00:39:29,191
address spoofing,

903
00:39:29,491 --> 00:39:31,611
location spoofing? That's one way.

904
00:39:32,411 --> 00:39:33,531
Because how big a problem? I mean,

905
00:39:33,611 --> 00:39:34,971
the obvious answer is just

906
00:39:34,971 --> 00:39:37,311
get your location from the phone

907
00:39:37,311 --> 00:39:38,971
and then that's your location. But

908
00:39:38,971 --> 00:39:41,431
location

909
00:39:41,431 --> 00:39:43,371
spoofing, it doesn't seem like a

910
00:39:43,371 --> 00:39:45,011
widespread problem to me.

911
00:39:45,231 --> 00:39:46,991
Most people don't install

912
00:39:46,991 --> 00:39:49,371
that software to...

913
00:39:49,371 --> 00:39:51,331
I don't even

914
00:39:51,331 --> 00:39:52,891
know if it's possible on iPhone.

915
00:39:52,891 --> 00:40:17,191
Awesome. There's a comment right now from Program Scarcity, which says, how easy would it be to spoof a device's BLE address? So I just want, because we're talking about, I just want to raise, I think it would not be, my guess is that the app would not be able to find that because you would need to have some device locally that is a BLE device. So you can't just spoof it like on the internet. You actually need a physical device present to be able to join the mesh network, right?

916
00:40:17,191 --> 00:40:22,451
he says then infer from network topology what is this i suppose you might need to learn how to

917
00:40:22,451 --> 00:40:28,951
analyze blie signal that interesting but but you'd need to be like a ble chip you'd need to have in

918
00:40:28,951 --> 00:40:33,911
the physical presence right you can't just trust it's on the internet in order like bitchhead i

919
00:40:33,911 --> 00:40:40,191
think will not investigate the internet will only investigate the the bluetooth chips that it finds

920
00:40:40,191 --> 00:40:45,491
nearby right so if you wanted to spoof you need to like physically get a bluetooth chip nearby which

921
00:40:45,491 --> 00:40:47,411
and is arguably not even spoofing.

922
00:40:47,611 --> 00:40:49,011
And to be clear, I'm not clear on this,

923
00:40:49,071 --> 00:40:50,851
so I'm assuming BLE is Bluetooth, is that right?

924
00:40:51,011 --> 00:40:51,931
Yeah, Bluetooth.

925
00:40:52,751 --> 00:40:54,171
So if that's the case,

926
00:40:54,771 --> 00:40:58,031
but if you're going and traveling around the world

927
00:40:58,031 --> 00:40:59,231
like to Argentina or something,

928
00:40:59,391 --> 00:41:00,831
that's not happening over Bluetooth anymore.

929
00:41:00,911 --> 00:41:02,971
That's happening via NOSTA relays, correct?

930
00:41:03,211 --> 00:41:03,411
Right.

931
00:41:04,331 --> 00:41:06,031
So you're using the traditional internet

932
00:41:06,031 --> 00:41:07,351
to be able to...

933
00:41:07,351 --> 00:41:08,451
So I don't see...

934
00:41:08,451 --> 00:41:09,491
If you're using the traditional internet

935
00:41:09,491 --> 00:41:10,691
to be able to connect to a NOSTA relay,

936
00:41:10,771 --> 00:41:13,991
then you could use more of a VPN to spoof.

937
00:41:13,991 --> 00:41:19,291
now like you can't spoof over the mesh but you could smooth spoof if you're doing internet to

938
00:41:19,291 --> 00:41:25,011
nostr but what are you spoofing at that point your location so i can use like i could download a vpn

939
00:41:25,011 --> 00:41:30,631
on my app yeah i'm in witness saturdays and whatever right but if you're if you're only

940
00:41:30,631 --> 00:41:35,871
connecting to people around you with your bluetooth you won't be in like if you create a distinction

941
00:41:35,871 --> 00:41:40,851
between people who are part of the bluetooth mesh and people who are otherwise favorited

942
00:41:40,851 --> 00:41:46,031
by people and those are connecting over the internet or that you're connecting via a geohash

943
00:41:46,031 --> 00:41:52,831
that's all application logic that you could use to okay the behavior or spaces you want so so two

944
00:41:52,831 --> 00:41:55,951
quick things that just jumped out my mind are exciting one to be clear what i'm seeing with

945
00:41:55,951 --> 00:41:59,911
the web of trust stuff and all this like spoofing is one specific example i think my broader point

946
00:41:59,911 --> 00:42:04,991
though is like you can build like different icons to show different things like you could have

947
00:42:04,991 --> 00:42:09,471
different badges where it's like dk was one of the first people to connect in whatever the um

948
00:42:09,471 --> 00:42:12,011
the Presidio Bitcoin mash and whatever.

949
00:42:12,151 --> 00:42:13,591
You could show he's currently in SF

950
00:42:13,591 --> 00:42:14,691
where he's not based on this.

951
00:42:15,071 --> 00:42:15,831
But the point is-

952
00:42:15,831 --> 00:42:16,551
You can recreate Foursquare.

953
00:42:16,951 --> 00:42:17,411
Yeah, exactly.

954
00:42:17,531 --> 00:42:18,451
You can recreate Foursquare.

955
00:42:18,811 --> 00:42:20,091
And because this is all open source,

956
00:42:20,211 --> 00:42:21,531
again, and using Nostra,

957
00:42:21,631 --> 00:42:24,051
you could have a ton of different apps

958
00:42:24,051 --> 00:42:25,031
showing different interfaces.

959
00:42:25,191 --> 00:42:26,451
So you could just do a Foursquare on this.

960
00:42:26,811 --> 00:42:27,971
Another thing that I would like to see,

961
00:42:27,991 --> 00:42:29,151
because we keep saying geohashing,

962
00:42:29,411 --> 00:42:31,151
whatever reason I keep thinking geocaching,

963
00:42:31,611 --> 00:42:33,031
how badass would it be

964
00:42:33,031 --> 00:42:34,231
if we started doing geocaching

965
00:42:34,231 --> 00:42:36,571
where people are just dropping Bitcoin around the world?

966
00:42:37,291 --> 00:42:38,351
That could really catch up.

967
00:42:38,411 --> 00:42:39,451
I would love to see that.

968
00:42:39,471 --> 00:42:43,851
If someone wanted to do either like a Pokemon Go or like just a, I know, I guess we talked

969
00:42:43,851 --> 00:42:47,131
to someone or you guys talked to someone doing that a while ago, or a geocache where you

970
00:42:47,131 --> 00:42:50,331
just like literally hide Bitcoin or some cool thing around the world.

971
00:42:50,431 --> 00:42:51,051
Like that would be dope.

972
00:42:51,511 --> 00:42:52,431
How is it hidden?

973
00:42:52,551 --> 00:42:55,271
Is it tied to somebody else's Bluetooth device?

974
00:42:55,491 --> 00:42:58,311
I don't know, but you could just say like, hey guys, I-

975
00:42:58,311 --> 00:42:59,651
Put a Bluetooth transmitter somewhere?

976
00:43:00,031 --> 00:43:00,291
Yeah.

977
00:43:00,291 --> 00:43:05,731
Or I like, you know, because you can zoom out the super local all the way up to the state

978
00:43:05,731 --> 00:43:06,531
or national level.

979
00:43:06,591 --> 00:43:09,151
You'd be like, I'll tell you it's in like this state, but that's it.

980
00:43:09,471 --> 00:43:10,951
find it.

981
00:43:11,791 --> 00:43:13,451
One thing we talked a little bit about

982
00:43:13,451 --> 00:43:15,871
is BitChat

983
00:43:15,871 --> 00:43:17,851
like an application platform.

984
00:43:18,131 --> 00:43:19,711
If you wanted to create an application

985
00:43:19,711 --> 00:43:21,331
like which layer do you

986
00:43:21,331 --> 00:43:23,171
plug in whatever, I think

987
00:43:23,171 --> 00:43:24,971
that would be interesting to

988
00:43:24,971 --> 00:43:27,811
explore in general and maybe

989
00:43:27,811 --> 00:43:29,671
the design week as well

990
00:43:29,671 --> 00:43:31,251
that that could be a nice situation

991
00:43:31,251 --> 00:43:32,271
because

992
00:43:32,271 --> 00:43:35,971
there's probably a million ideas of what to do

993
00:43:35,971 --> 00:43:37,831
but if we cram it all into one app

994
00:43:37,831 --> 00:43:40,771
then it kind of feels like

995
00:43:40,771 --> 00:43:42,211
WeChat or something

996
00:43:42,211 --> 00:43:44,151
or maybe Elon's

997
00:43:44,151 --> 00:43:46,071
vision for X being

998
00:43:46,071 --> 00:43:47,431
an everything app

999
00:43:47,431 --> 00:43:50,131
but there's trade-offs with an everything app

1000
00:43:50,131 --> 00:43:52,631
things that matter to you get buried

1001
00:43:52,631 --> 00:43:54,591
etc. And maybe AI is the new

1002
00:43:54,591 --> 00:43:55,051
interface

1003
00:43:55,051 --> 00:43:57,551
but it would be interesting

1004
00:43:57,551 --> 00:44:00,691
what should be the direction of BitChat as a platform

1005
00:44:00,691 --> 00:44:02,851
versus a singular application

1006
00:44:02,851 --> 00:44:03,691
I love it

1007
00:44:03,691 --> 00:44:06,091
another good hackathon too

1008
00:44:06,091 --> 00:44:17,911
And then another direction is like, yeah, how could an AI prompt be part of it?

1009
00:44:18,411 --> 00:44:18,791
What do you mean?

1010
00:44:20,231 --> 00:44:26,811
Well, just like at the Proto launch, they showed the fleet software having like an AI prompt.

1011
00:44:26,931 --> 00:44:32,731
You just like prompt it with speaking to it or text if you have a question, right?

1012
00:44:32,731 --> 00:44:33,631
I mean, one.

1013
00:44:33,771 --> 00:44:34,691
It's like a whole new interface.

1014
00:44:34,691 --> 00:44:40,931
Instead of clicking menus and icons and tabs to access functionality, you just tell it what you want.

1015
00:44:41,391 --> 00:44:46,331
So one immediate thought that comes is when we're seeing BitChat as a development platform,

1016
00:44:46,471 --> 00:44:51,951
it's almost like saying in the background, it's like Noster plus this mesh network piece as a development platform,

1017
00:44:52,391 --> 00:44:54,551
but it actually has adoption, which is the key.

1018
00:44:54,651 --> 00:44:55,951
It's so hard to actually get adoption.

1019
00:44:56,771 --> 00:45:00,251
And I kind of see the world quickly siphoning off.

1020
00:45:00,251 --> 00:45:08,591
So to the tweet you shared from Elon that we mentioned where he says the phone basically just becomes your interface for everything in the world, like you're talking to it.

1021
00:45:08,911 --> 00:45:17,351
I could easily see a world where it's like the people that, the companies that create the supermodels or whatever, like they probably will each have their interface for that.

1022
00:45:17,431 --> 00:45:21,531
So Google will have one, X will have one, maybe OpenAI, Microsoft or whatever, a couple of those.

1023
00:45:21,531 --> 00:45:30,691
But each of those are supermodels. Are you referring to amazing LLMs or more of an Elon flavor of supermodels?

1024
00:45:30,831 --> 00:45:31,671
Take your pick.

1025
00:45:32,071 --> 00:45:42,091
Exactly. I was, in fact, thinking very well-trained models. But again, take your pick.

1026
00:45:43,911 --> 00:45:48,051
However, the broader point I'm saying is we need an open version of this too.

1027
00:45:48,051 --> 00:46:05,851
And, you know, I love for a long time, you know, Primal and Million was always talking about like, think about, you know, what he's trying to build is the open version of X. And I think that applies not just to Primal, but to Nostra as an ecosystem. And I just view BitChat as an extension of that. I view BitChat as Nostra with some additional awesome features and adoption, which is great.

1028
00:46:05,851 --> 00:46:21,331
And so, yeah, I increasingly think, what does it look like where, again, going back to that vision of the software apps and the information, you can access this whole, basically you create a giant database of the world that's open, read, write.

1029
00:46:21,611 --> 00:46:26,751
The only requirement is you need a public-private key to conform with the standard.

1030
00:46:26,871 --> 00:46:29,031
And beyond that, you can do whatever the hell you want with any of this.

1031
00:46:29,451 --> 00:46:35,271
And that's beautiful because then you can have people listed on there, agents, but it's all using the web of TrustFilter.

1032
00:46:35,271 --> 00:46:58,911
So the things that really matter are, you know, the model that you use to access all this stuff and do things with it and the identity piece. And as long as you, you know, and the identity and the algorithms that come with that to serve a specific identity, as long as you have that, this to me seems like the jumping off point for the sort of truly open AI platform or open AI ecosystem, whatever you want to call it, open source AI ecosystem.

1033
00:46:58,911 --> 00:47:06,471
yeah and i i like the way you know all of that stuff uh works for me but i also like you know

1034
00:47:06,471 --> 00:47:13,771
i think there's something to study or learn from bitchat which is bitchat uses nostr like it's

1035
00:47:13,771 --> 00:47:18,471
infrastructure and it doesn't say hey go sign up for a nostr account kind of just does that

1036
00:47:18,471 --> 00:47:23,751
in the background and i i think ultimately nostr is infrastructure more so than like

1037
00:47:23,751 --> 00:47:28,771
a collection of applications but i i think bitchat's maybe one of the first examples we've seen

1038
00:47:28,771 --> 00:47:32,091
where the app is built with that assumption

1039
00:47:32,091 --> 00:47:34,551
instead of like, hey, go generate your private keys.

1040
00:47:34,631 --> 00:47:35,371
You know, it's kind of more like,

1041
00:47:35,951 --> 00:47:38,211
here's a service, do this thing you want to do.

1042
00:47:38,491 --> 00:47:40,891
And I could imagine that that same framing

1043
00:47:40,891 --> 00:47:43,691
could be taken to like an LLM chat experience,

1044
00:47:44,011 --> 00:47:45,671
which is just like, here's a thing,

1045
00:47:45,991 --> 00:47:48,251
you can use it and don't worry about the fact

1046
00:47:48,251 --> 00:47:49,211
that it happens to use Nostra,

1047
00:47:49,271 --> 00:47:50,651
but Nostra gives you a lot of advantages

1048
00:47:50,651 --> 00:47:52,591
as infrastructure for this.

1049
00:47:53,111 --> 00:47:54,051
Yeah, 100% agree.

1050
00:47:54,471 --> 00:47:55,531
So I guess for me, the summary

1051
00:47:55,531 --> 00:47:56,791
of where things are at with BitChat,

1052
00:47:56,791 --> 00:47:59,811
I get excited about all the possibilities.

1053
00:48:00,191 --> 00:48:04,191
I get worried, though, that if they all get crammed into the app,

1054
00:48:04,331 --> 00:48:07,091
that it muddies the waters, and then it's like a crappy app

1055
00:48:07,091 --> 00:48:08,551
for everything and everyone.

1056
00:48:09,151 --> 00:48:11,331
So I think there needs to be a lot of discipline there.

1057
00:48:12,011 --> 00:48:15,471
Maybe BitChat as a platform allows for that exploration

1058
00:48:15,471 --> 00:48:19,931
while keeping things siloed.

1059
00:48:20,151 --> 00:48:20,711
I don't know.

1060
00:48:20,711 --> 00:48:36,091
And then with the, I really like the mesh network and Nostra connections, and I just hope that these new geohashes head in the right direction and the wrong direction.

1061
00:48:36,091 --> 00:48:51,451
I mean, one thing we talked about prior to the show, if there's a quorum of people who are actually at a location, then that can give it enough authenticity so that the quality there is good.

1062
00:48:51,691 --> 00:48:58,891
And I think if you mix in like what we said earlier, if you're not actually there, then you have sort of read access but not write access.

1063
00:48:58,891 --> 00:49:01,031
maybe having visual distinctions

1064
00:49:01,031 --> 00:49:03,651
on the icon next to people's names, etc.

1065
00:49:03,791 --> 00:49:07,271
I think that treatment is important.

1066
00:49:07,731 --> 00:49:08,431
Yeah, I love that.

1067
00:49:08,911 --> 00:49:09,691
And just to clarify,

1068
00:49:09,911 --> 00:49:11,251
I think if you're not there,

1069
00:49:11,671 --> 00:49:13,231
the default, if you're just kind of browsing,

1070
00:49:13,851 --> 00:49:15,531
might be nice to be read-only.

1071
00:49:16,111 --> 00:49:16,991
But in my case,

1072
00:49:17,051 --> 00:49:18,731
I'm not at Presidio Bitcoin right now,

1073
00:49:18,811 --> 00:49:20,891
but there is a Presidio Bitcoin member

1074
00:49:20,891 --> 00:49:22,251
who has favorited me.

1075
00:49:22,331 --> 00:49:23,351
So even though I'm not present,

1076
00:49:23,611 --> 00:49:39,661
maybe I can participate in the real chat Because I think ultimately we just trying to say can you can you um recreate the the norms or standards around who gets to talk where versus necessarily saying everybody you know

1077
00:49:39,661 --> 00:49:44,641
has to be in the same place in order to chat with each other right because like the the nostrum

1078
00:49:44,641 --> 00:49:49,941
mutual favoriting already is sort of a dipping the toe in the water outside of that you know

1079
00:49:49,941 --> 00:49:56,601
core restriction that was the initial part of it um but i'm i'm wondering too um do we know i'd

1080
00:49:56,601 --> 00:50:00,801
asked a while back and i i never got a lot of clarity on this and if you guys have heard more

1081
00:50:00,801 --> 00:50:07,781
recently but do we know sort of is the i assume the protocol is just open source software and

1082
00:50:07,781 --> 00:50:13,921
stuff if somebody wanted to write their own bit chat client byte chat or max chat or something

1083
00:50:13,921 --> 00:50:19,601
and wanted to have a different set of features or a different take on how it works but integrate

1084
00:50:19,601 --> 00:50:21,481
with the mesh networking

1085
00:50:21,481 --> 00:50:24,641
or sort of the messaging system of BitChat?

1086
00:50:24,761 --> 00:50:27,061
Do we know if that's like possible today

1087
00:50:27,061 --> 00:50:29,001
or if it's restricted or limited somehow?

1088
00:50:30,141 --> 00:50:30,741
It's a great question.

1089
00:50:31,441 --> 00:50:32,621
I mean, I assume because it's using

1090
00:50:32,621 --> 00:50:33,581
the white noise protocol,

1091
00:50:33,901 --> 00:50:36,361
like anyone could be able

1092
00:50:36,361 --> 00:50:38,061
to build something that's interoperable,

1093
00:50:38,161 --> 00:50:38,581
but I don't know.

1094
00:50:40,001 --> 00:50:41,221
We should figure it out for next week.

1095
00:50:41,241 --> 00:50:41,981
I haven't checked it.

1096
00:50:42,021 --> 00:50:44,641
It wouldn't surprise me if early on at least,

1097
00:50:44,761 --> 00:50:47,501
maybe the binary only accepts things signed

1098
00:50:47,501 --> 00:50:48,901
by that binary or something

1099
00:50:48,901 --> 00:50:50,901
just to try to keep it a little clean.

1100
00:50:51,081 --> 00:50:52,241
But in the longer run,

1101
00:50:52,281 --> 00:50:55,861
I'd hope that there's some way to decide

1102
00:50:55,861 --> 00:50:58,221
what other apps can participate

1103
00:50:58,221 --> 00:50:59,701
in those messaging channels.

1104
00:51:00,861 --> 00:51:02,241
Because it does seem like

1105
00:51:02,241 --> 00:51:04,061
if you can take some of these ideas,

1106
00:51:04,461 --> 00:51:06,081
experiment with them outside

1107
00:51:06,081 --> 00:51:08,221
without sort of muddying the waters.

1108
00:51:08,381 --> 00:51:09,401
Like if you want to try these

1109
00:51:09,401 --> 00:51:11,101
like location geohash things

1110
00:51:11,101 --> 00:51:12,001
and let everybody talk

1111
00:51:12,001 --> 00:51:13,101
or let nobody talk

1112
00:51:13,101 --> 00:51:14,021
or only people who are there,

1113
00:51:14,081 --> 00:51:15,701
you can sort of mix and match

1114
00:51:15,701 --> 00:51:16,981
different takes on that.

1115
00:51:16,981 --> 00:51:23,921
if that was more of an experimental surface, then you could let those experiments play out.

1116
00:51:24,021 --> 00:51:27,061
And the good ones could be incorporated in the more broadly distributed apps and the

1117
00:51:27,061 --> 00:51:33,021
bad ideas can sort of fade away. I would just like to throw back out to the ideas.

1118
00:51:33,141 --> 00:51:36,001
We've mentioned this before, but that I would love to see. And maybe this is something we can

1119
00:51:36,001 --> 00:51:40,641
actually explore further in the design week. But when using BitChatt as a development platform,

1120
00:51:40,721 --> 00:51:45,621
the two things that jump out to me again, local Bitcoins, someone make local Bitcoins on BitChatt.

1121
00:51:45,621 --> 00:51:48,761
this is going to be awesome and it's going to be really important in the future.

1122
00:51:49,481 --> 00:51:50,641
And the compute marketplace.

1123
00:51:50,941 --> 00:51:54,521
I could see something where, because your point, someone actually has to compile and

1124
00:51:54,521 --> 00:51:54,981
run the code.

1125
00:51:55,481 --> 00:52:00,041
And we've talked about all the advantages of having an open marketplace as things get,

1126
00:52:00,621 --> 00:52:03,141
as restrictions come down all around the internet.

1127
00:52:04,281 --> 00:52:08,841
Imagine you could say, well, I need to run whatever this operation, I need to do this

1128
00:52:08,841 --> 00:52:09,221
thing.

1129
00:52:09,881 --> 00:52:15,081
But in El Salvador, I know there's a server there that will do this thing.

1130
00:52:15,081 --> 00:52:17,041
because they're okay with that.

1131
00:52:17,161 --> 00:52:17,921
But maybe, you know,

1132
00:52:17,941 --> 00:52:19,021
it's similar to VPNs today.

1133
00:52:19,781 --> 00:52:21,581
I think that that's going to be very interesting.

1134
00:52:22,721 --> 00:52:22,921
Yep.

1135
00:52:23,981 --> 00:52:24,421
Cool.

1136
00:52:24,721 --> 00:52:28,321
Any, any more topics on BitChat

1137
00:52:28,321 --> 00:52:29,261
that we want to address?

1138
00:52:31,301 --> 00:52:33,021
It's just exciting to see it has adoption.

1139
00:52:34,201 --> 00:52:34,861
You know, it's rare.

1140
00:52:35,401 --> 00:52:35,501
So.

1141
00:52:36,241 --> 00:52:36,381
Cool.

1142
00:52:37,001 --> 00:52:38,361
Well then, you know,

1143
00:52:38,381 --> 00:52:40,521
let's, let's move on topics then.

1144
00:52:41,261 --> 00:52:42,501
I think we had,

1145
00:52:42,721 --> 00:52:43,181
I mean, geez,

1146
00:52:43,221 --> 00:52:44,421
there was so much stuff here.

1147
00:52:45,081 --> 00:52:51,421
we i think we have in the title what do we have in the title we have uh stablecoin stuff was there

1148
00:52:51,421 --> 00:52:58,841
us i mean we've had discussions in the past on stablecoins and um we have these comments around

1149
00:52:58,841 --> 00:53:03,801
like discuss various platforms which will win eth tron soul base arc tempo spark taproot ss

1150
00:53:03,801 --> 00:53:09,961
discuss various issuers that will win do you guys have sort of a an entry point for for what you're

1151
00:53:09,961 --> 00:53:10,701
excited about this week?

1152
00:53:11,441 --> 00:53:12,541
Well, we talked last week about,

1153
00:53:13,041 --> 00:53:14,881
I mean, we gave a brief summary

1154
00:53:14,881 --> 00:53:16,341
of Tempo and Arc,

1155
00:53:16,441 --> 00:53:17,301
which are two new

1156
00:53:17,301 --> 00:53:19,561
layer one blockchains,

1157
00:53:20,001 --> 00:53:21,721
primarily for stable coins.

1158
00:53:22,621 --> 00:53:24,301
Steve came out as an L1 Maximus.

1159
00:53:24,761 --> 00:53:24,921
Yeah.

1160
00:53:26,701 --> 00:53:28,961
So we teed that up last week,

1161
00:53:29,001 --> 00:53:29,821
but we didn't really

1162
00:53:29,821 --> 00:53:32,301
go deep into stable coins,

1163
00:53:32,301 --> 00:53:35,381
so we can go deep right now.

1164
00:53:36,681 --> 00:53:37,221
You know, I think,

1165
00:53:37,221 --> 00:53:41,341
I forget if we talked about this in the show, but

1166
00:53:41,341 --> 00:53:45,621
I think the two of you spoke with someone, one of our colleagues

1167
00:53:45,621 --> 00:53:49,761
and friends, who asserted that Tether on Tron

1168
00:53:49,761 --> 00:53:53,281
has already won, and won in a way that it would be

1169
00:53:53,281 --> 00:53:55,981
a monopoly, basically.

1170
00:53:56,861 --> 00:54:00,861
Yeah, kind of unassailable, just move on. Don't fight over that battle anymore.

1171
00:54:01,861 --> 00:54:05,441
And I just, I find that,

1172
00:54:05,441 --> 00:54:09,141
I mean, clearly it's true that it's number one right now.

1173
00:54:09,381 --> 00:54:12,141
Tether is number one as the issued stablecoin,

1174
00:54:12,281 --> 00:54:14,381
and Tether on Tron, that pair, is number one.

1175
00:54:14,501 --> 00:54:15,601
So that's a fact.

1176
00:54:15,681 --> 00:54:16,421
We can all look at the data.

1177
00:54:18,021 --> 00:54:20,401
I find it super unlikely, though,

1178
00:54:20,741 --> 00:54:24,961
that it gets near 100% market share and everything else loses.

1179
00:54:26,101 --> 00:54:28,601
Because all we see right now is an explosion

1180
00:54:28,601 --> 00:54:34,021
of new stablecoin issuance and platforms.

1181
00:54:34,021 --> 00:54:35,181
and then it's a

1182
00:54:35,181 --> 00:54:36,761
combinatorial

1183
00:54:36,761 --> 00:54:40,041
from there, all the different pairs.

1184
00:54:41,361 --> 00:54:42,001
And I think we're only

1185
00:54:42,001 --> 00:54:43,981
with the Genius Act, we're only going to see

1186
00:54:43,981 --> 00:54:44,581
more.

1187
00:54:45,281 --> 00:54:48,021
We see explosion of creation, but do we

1188
00:54:48,021 --> 00:54:50,021
see explosion of usage of these other

1189
00:54:50,021 --> 00:54:50,281
ones?

1190
00:54:52,321 --> 00:54:54,061
Not yet, but we'll see.

1191
00:54:54,321 --> 00:54:56,041
We just saw, I think in the past week,

1192
00:54:57,141 --> 00:54:58,141
I think it was Wyoming,

1193
00:54:59,041 --> 00:55:00,061
the state of Wyoming

1194
00:55:00,061 --> 00:55:02,161
or some kind of governmental body within

1195
00:55:02,161 --> 00:55:03,861
Wyoming issued their own

1196
00:55:04,021 --> 00:55:12,821
stablecoin and the genius act is a framework that that supports that so banks governments state

1197
00:55:12,821 --> 00:55:19,381
level federal level in the u.s all will be creating stablecoins um can we just pause for a second what

1198
00:55:19,381 --> 00:55:25,081
what do we imagine that would enable or support or like what is it like if i were a citizen

1199
00:55:25,081 --> 00:55:32,441
of wyoming or like a resident that i could go to my bank put in fiat dollars and get the stablecoin

1200
00:55:32,441 --> 00:55:36,581
but what do I do with it? Do I pay other Wyoming people or is it

1201
00:55:36,581 --> 00:55:40,661
interchangeable when I go to Buenos Aires I can pay for stuff

1202
00:55:40,661 --> 00:55:43,081
so interchange with Toronto?

1203
00:55:44,041 --> 00:55:48,481
I'll share the high level benefits and then we can talk about the challenges

1204
00:55:48,481 --> 00:55:52,281
to get there like interoperability being the real challenge

1205
00:55:52,281 --> 00:55:56,721
but setting aside challenges, what does a digital

1206
00:55:56,721 --> 00:56:00,481
dollar give you over traditional dollars? First of all

1207
00:56:00,481 --> 00:56:01,901
24-7 settlement.

1208
00:56:02,121 --> 00:56:04,741
You don't have bank holidays and stuff like that.

1209
00:56:05,821 --> 00:56:07,961
You can exchange money anytime you want.

1210
00:56:08,361 --> 00:56:09,461
And you can do it anywhere you want.

1211
00:56:09,741 --> 00:56:13,161
So your example, you can go to, did you say Argentina or wherever,

1212
00:56:13,461 --> 00:56:18,061
and pay someone in dollars just from your mobile app.

1213
00:56:18,401 --> 00:56:23,561
So I think that's the high-level vision that anyone or everyone has

1214
00:56:23,561 --> 00:56:24,681
around stablecoins.

1215
00:56:24,681 --> 00:56:28,981
And if I'm using a JPMorgan stablecoin and I go to Argentina

1216
00:56:28,981 --> 00:56:30,301
and they're using Tether on Tron,

1217
00:56:30,661 --> 00:56:32,081
or if that's what their wallet receives,

1218
00:56:32,141 --> 00:56:34,301
if I can pay them and not have to worry about those details,

1219
00:56:34,441 --> 00:56:35,361
that would be amazing.

1220
00:56:35,581 --> 00:56:38,581
Then everyone's paying each other in dollars around the world.

1221
00:56:39,401 --> 00:56:42,701
But in a sense, if we want interoperability

1222
00:56:42,701 --> 00:56:45,961
and 24-7 settlement,

1223
00:56:46,581 --> 00:56:48,441
why don't we just all converge on one?

1224
00:56:49,281 --> 00:56:52,301
Yeah, well, because business reasons, right?

1225
00:56:52,821 --> 00:56:54,641
So like, people want that sweet, sweet yield.

1226
00:56:56,001 --> 00:56:58,461
Yeah, I mean, if you're JP Morgan

1227
00:56:58,461 --> 00:56:59,841
or any other company,

1228
00:57:00,181 --> 00:57:03,641
already Tether is making insane profits.

1229
00:57:04,581 --> 00:57:06,721
So if I'm a bank,

1230
00:57:06,961 --> 00:57:08,001
I want those profits.

1231
00:57:08,261 --> 00:57:10,501
If I have a huge customer base

1232
00:57:10,501 --> 00:57:12,081
and I'm giving my customer base

1233
00:57:12,081 --> 00:57:12,781
that I've acquired,

1234
00:57:12,881 --> 00:57:13,661
my customer base,

1235
00:57:14,381 --> 00:57:15,181
digital dollars,

1236
00:57:15,241 --> 00:57:16,501
why do I want to give all the profits

1237
00:57:16,501 --> 00:57:18,481
to Tether or Circle

1238
00:57:18,481 --> 00:57:20,041
or Coinbase or another company?

1239
00:57:20,041 --> 00:57:21,741
And for people that don't know,

1240
00:57:21,861 --> 00:57:22,781
when Steve's talking about the profits,

1241
00:57:22,921 --> 00:57:23,681
what they're doing is

1242
00:57:23,681 --> 00:57:25,041
they're holding treasuries on the back end,

1243
00:57:25,101 --> 00:57:25,701
which pays whatever,

1244
00:57:25,841 --> 00:57:27,101
4% or 5% at least now.

1245
00:57:27,101 --> 00:57:30,501
and their users get access to dollars.

1246
00:57:30,681 --> 00:57:31,141
So they're literally,

1247
00:57:31,461 --> 00:57:33,441
like when Tether is just printing billions of dollars,

1248
00:57:33,561 --> 00:57:34,561
they're literally just holding treasuries.

1249
00:57:34,741 --> 00:57:36,001
It's like, in some ways,

1250
00:57:36,261 --> 00:57:38,381
since Google, the greatest business model

1251
00:57:38,381 --> 00:57:39,681
in the last 20 years.

1252
00:57:40,361 --> 00:57:43,361
So it's more profitable on a per employee basis, right?

1253
00:57:43,941 --> 00:57:44,161
Yeah.

1254
00:57:44,441 --> 00:57:45,421
And again, I mean,

1255
00:57:45,581 --> 00:57:47,341
what we talked about last week,

1256
00:57:48,181 --> 00:57:50,121
I think the obvious answer,

1257
00:57:50,121 --> 00:57:52,421
why is Stripe and Paradigm

1258
00:57:52,421 --> 00:57:54,521
working on a new layer one tempo

1259
00:57:54,521 --> 00:57:57,441
that's intended to be a stablecoin

1260
00:57:57,441 --> 00:57:58,161
layer one.

1261
00:58:00,381 --> 00:58:02,761
I think for that, they don't want

1262
00:58:02,761 --> 00:58:04,541
Coinbase's base to run away

1263
00:58:04,541 --> 00:58:06,941
with being the online platform. So there's competition

1264
00:58:06,941 --> 00:58:08,801
for the platform and then the stablecoin

1265
00:58:08,801 --> 00:58:09,601
issuance on top.

1266
00:58:11,441 --> 00:58:12,301
And we'll see.

1267
00:58:12,541 --> 00:58:13,441
It's unclear

1268
00:58:13,441 --> 00:58:16,741
at both layers, it's unclear

1269
00:58:16,741 --> 00:58:18,881
how competitive it'll ultimately

1270
00:58:18,881 --> 00:58:20,701
be. It's very competitive now

1271
00:58:20,701 --> 00:58:22,181
in terms of lots of options.

1272
00:58:22,181 --> 00:58:26,341
but we'll see how much

1273
00:58:26,341 --> 00:58:28,841
consolidation there is for each

1274
00:58:28,841 --> 00:58:31,941
and obviously if you're in the lead right now

1275
00:58:31,941 --> 00:58:36,581
you are unlikely to be investing

1276
00:58:36,581 --> 00:58:39,381
in technologies that make it interoperable

1277
00:58:39,381 --> 00:58:42,781
although having said that even Tether who has the lead

1278
00:58:42,781 --> 00:58:46,181
they've issued Tether on Bitcoin

1279
00:58:46,181 --> 00:58:50,021
and then Ethereum and then Tron

1280
00:58:50,021 --> 00:58:52,861
and Solana, and now they're coming back to,

1281
00:58:53,241 --> 00:58:55,021
or they're exploring coming back to Bitcoin

1282
00:58:55,021 --> 00:58:59,861
on taproot assets, on their own RGB-based system,

1283
00:59:00,281 --> 00:59:03,041
and who knows if they're exploring on Spark as well.

1284
00:59:03,041 --> 00:59:07,861
But Tether clearly has shown they're agnostic

1285
00:59:07,861 --> 00:59:09,881
to underlying platform,

1286
00:59:10,281 --> 00:59:12,101
and they need to provide interoperability

1287
00:59:12,101 --> 00:59:14,361
between all those if they want

1288
00:59:14,361 --> 00:59:15,761
to create a good customer experience.

1289
00:59:15,961 --> 00:59:17,941
So even they're incentivized to do that.

1290
00:59:17,941 --> 00:59:24,021
It seems like they would feel a little bit trapped by Tron, right? Like they don't want to be stuck on Tron.

1291
00:59:24,261 --> 00:59:25,121
Totally. It's not theirs.

1292
00:59:25,441 --> 00:59:42,661
But I do, I worry, like, so I asked why should there be a lot of these? And you mentioned, well, JP Morgan wants to, you know, they have their customer base and they want to capture the sweet, sweet yield. But like, if I'm a customer of JP Morgan, why do I want to take some stable coin that's not really useful anywhere?

1293
00:59:42,661 --> 01:00:06,341
Well, I mean, we can get it into interoperability, but I mean, if we assume a world in which there's interoperability, then the customer doesn't even have to know about that, think about that or worry about that. It just works. And why would they pick JPMorgan Digital Dollar over Tether? Well, if I'm a JPMorgan customer, number one, I've probably never heard of Tether. Number two, if I've heard of it, I've read all this horrible FUD and it sounds like some kind of scam, right?

1294
01:00:06,341 --> 01:00:13,221
so there's tons of people who either have no brand affinity to it or are scared of it and i've been a

1295
01:00:13,221 --> 01:00:17,741
30 year customer at jp morgan or whatever which one am i going to choose obviously i'm going to

1296
01:00:17,741 --> 01:00:24,441
trust jp morgan they're my bank they've been my bank my whole life um so to me that seems obvious

1297
01:00:24,441 --> 01:00:29,301
why they'd pick it seems obvious why they would choose to do it if interoperability is solved

1298
01:00:29,301 --> 01:00:31,561
but at the point interoperability is solved

1299
01:00:31,561 --> 01:00:33,921
it also seems like less

1300
01:00:33,921 --> 01:00:35,401
important

1301
01:00:35,401 --> 01:00:36,941
where you got them really

1302
01:00:36,941 --> 01:00:39,621
so yes you have a relationship with JP Morgan

1303
01:00:39,621 --> 01:00:41,741
but will JP Morgan be able

1304
01:00:41,741 --> 01:00:43,821
to capture excess profits

1305
01:00:43,821 --> 01:00:45,741
if these are fully interchangeable

1306
01:00:45,741 --> 01:00:46,201
in commodity

1307
01:00:46,201 --> 01:00:49,541
well they have a lot

1308
01:00:49,541 --> 01:00:51,501
for the reasons

1309
01:00:51,501 --> 01:00:52,461
I think I just said

1310
01:00:52,461 --> 01:00:54,521
they have a huge customer base

1311
01:00:54,521 --> 01:00:56,961
and they'll just capture their

1312
01:00:56,961 --> 01:00:59,101
existing customer base

1313
01:00:59,101 --> 01:01:00,481
and whoever other customers they have.

1314
01:01:00,581 --> 01:01:00,721
I mean,

1315
01:01:00,821 --> 01:01:01,941
they won't necessarily,

1316
01:01:02,261 --> 01:01:05,521
they won't necessarily like win a new customer

1317
01:01:05,521 --> 01:01:08,661
because they have JP Morgan coin.

1318
01:01:09,221 --> 01:01:09,701
Right.

1319
01:01:09,841 --> 01:01:11,421
They'll capture customers

1320
01:01:11,421 --> 01:01:13,221
for all the other reasons they capture customers.

1321
01:01:14,261 --> 01:01:14,741
Yeah.

1322
01:01:15,341 --> 01:01:15,461
But,

1323
01:01:15,761 --> 01:01:16,801
and then as far as interoperability,

1324
01:01:16,961 --> 01:01:17,101
I mean,

1325
01:01:17,241 --> 01:01:19,561
Stripe paid a billion dollars for Bridge.xyz.

1326
01:01:19,661 --> 01:01:19,961
Exactly.

1327
01:01:20,181 --> 01:01:22,781
That is an interoperability solution.

1328
01:01:23,321 --> 01:01:26,601
Circle has an interoperability solution for USDC.

1329
01:01:27,101 --> 01:01:28,601
I actually don't know offhand

1330
01:01:28,601 --> 01:01:30,581
if Tether has one as part of their wallet

1331
01:01:30,581 --> 01:01:32,681
development kit, WDK, but I assume

1332
01:01:32,681 --> 01:01:34,561
they do, at least within their own

1333
01:01:34,561 --> 01:01:36,601
family of Tether.

1334
01:01:37,321 --> 01:01:38,401
And then there's undoubtedly,

1335
01:01:38,401 --> 01:01:40,461
I mean, anytime you get a billion-dollar acquisition

1336
01:01:40,461 --> 01:01:42,581
from Stripe, I'm sure there's like a dozen startups

1337
01:01:42,581 --> 01:01:44,621
that are trying to do some kind of bridge

1338
01:01:44,621 --> 01:01:46,621
solution as well. And then if you look

1339
01:01:46,621 --> 01:01:48,481
at Taproot Assets and Spark, they

1340
01:01:48,481 --> 01:01:50,561
both also offer inoperability.

1341
01:01:50,841 --> 01:01:52,281
Because if your Taproot Assets or Spark,

1342
01:01:52,401 --> 01:01:54,401
those are platforms that are trying to compete, enter

1343
01:01:54,401 --> 01:01:56,101
the game, they have no market share right now,

1344
01:01:56,721 --> 01:01:57,941
it's early, so

1345
01:01:57,941 --> 01:02:00,661
they obviously need to promote interoperability

1346
01:02:00,661 --> 01:02:02,081
because they're trying to

1347
01:02:02,081 --> 01:02:03,841
they need to interoperate with

1348
01:02:03,841 --> 01:02:06,281
USDC

1349
01:02:06,281 --> 01:02:07,701
on base for example.

1350
01:02:08,601 --> 01:02:10,441
Do we know if the interoperability

1351
01:02:10,441 --> 01:02:12,081
does it like a bridge

1352
01:02:12,081 --> 01:02:13,921
dot XYZ do they

1353
01:02:13,921 --> 01:02:16,421
interoperate like both

1354
01:02:16,421 --> 01:02:18,201
the stablecoin and the

1355
01:02:18,201 --> 01:02:20,121
underlying L1 or do they

1356
01:02:20,121 --> 01:02:22,121
interoperate one or the other or both?

1357
01:02:23,441 --> 01:02:24,281
Well in theory

1358
01:02:24,281 --> 01:02:26,281
it can be both. I think bridge dot

1359
01:02:26,281 --> 01:02:28,641
because AZ is both, but I'm not quite certain.

1360
01:02:28,801 --> 01:02:29,501
But certainly in theory,

1361
01:02:29,621 --> 01:02:31,621
and definitely taproot assets can do both.

1362
01:02:32,881 --> 01:02:34,841
I think if it's custodial,

1363
01:02:35,241 --> 01:02:37,241
then it's, I mean, if all this is done on a server,

1364
01:02:37,441 --> 01:02:39,501
it's like quite easy to do technically.

1365
01:02:41,141 --> 01:02:43,581
There's going to be middlemen and fees

1366
01:02:43,581 --> 01:02:44,421
and stuff like that.

1367
01:02:44,421 --> 01:02:48,721
There's going to be regulatory scrutiny and concerns

1368
01:02:48,721 --> 01:02:51,501
like can taproot assets or Spark

1369
01:02:51,501 --> 01:02:54,141
or any of these remain KYC free

1370
01:02:54,141 --> 01:02:55,641
is a big question.

1371
01:02:56,281 --> 01:02:59,341
because regulators might go to any of those,

1372
01:03:00,221 --> 01:03:04,941
whether you call it a bridge or DEX or exchange or swap

1373
01:03:04,941 --> 01:03:06,361
or whatever word you want to call it.

1374
01:03:06,361 --> 01:03:15,361
If I have stablecoin X on platform P1

1375
01:03:15,361 --> 01:03:19,441
and I'm trading with you and you have stablecoin Y on P2,

1376
01:03:19,941 --> 01:03:21,401
somehow that has to get converted.

1377
01:03:21,721 --> 01:03:23,321
There's a variety of solutions there,

1378
01:03:23,581 --> 01:03:25,961
but regulators can go to whoever's doing those swaps

1379
01:03:25,961 --> 01:03:28,201
and be like, hey, this is an MSB.

1380
01:03:28,621 --> 01:03:31,061
This feels and looks and smells like an MSB.

1381
01:03:31,621 --> 01:03:32,721
I'm calling it MSB.

1382
01:03:33,061 --> 01:03:35,841
You need to be licensed, and you need to KYC.

1383
01:03:36,561 --> 01:03:40,021
And I don't, that seems, I don't know.

1384
01:03:40,201 --> 01:03:42,161
I mean, kind of seems inevitable to me.

1385
01:03:42,301 --> 01:03:43,501
Honestly, the more I see all this,

1386
01:03:43,561 --> 01:03:46,461
it's a very interesting set of incentives and tensions here.

1387
01:03:46,581 --> 01:03:48,121
Because for example, you've got Stripe,

1388
01:03:48,201 --> 01:03:49,521
they pay a billion dollars to do Bridge,

1389
01:03:49,581 --> 01:03:51,161
and Theory Bridge exists just to swap

1390
01:03:51,161 --> 01:03:52,161
between the different stablecoins.

1391
01:03:52,241 --> 01:03:54,821
But now Stripe's going to launch their own L1.

1392
01:03:54,821 --> 01:04:19,781
I don't know if they're going to do their own stablecoin next on top of that remains to be seen, but that's like pretty big tension with their acquisition of bridge. And so honestly, the way I see more and more of this playing out, this actually just hearing you describe like that, making me more bullish on Bitcoin as the swap or interoperability layer in the long run, because these all just feel like different intranets, just like all the different cryptocurrencies again, right?

1393
01:04:19,781 --> 01:04:29,041
Like, you know, maybe they'll start with interoperability, but there will certainly be fights where, you know, okay, you're not giving me enough of my juice between Stripecoin and Tether.

1394
01:04:29,221 --> 01:04:31,121
And so, oh, sorry, interoperability is lost.

1395
01:04:31,181 --> 01:04:32,761
And that's just like a worse customer experience.

1396
01:04:33,281 --> 01:04:36,081
So I don't know exactly how this is going to flow.

1397
01:04:36,401 --> 01:04:45,701
And maybe the first round, and also like what happens like for the long tail, like, you know, maybe there's not a ton of users on whatever, some new stable coin that gets launched.

1398
01:04:45,701 --> 01:04:49,601
Maybe there's like a thousand, and maybe there's a thousand of those, and they start aggregating over time.

1399
01:04:49,781 --> 01:04:55,341
I think somehow, and also the sort of gray market use cases, right?

1400
01:04:55,361 --> 01:05:00,501
So like maybe you've got your Stripe coin and, you know, Stripe is being fully compliant,

1401
01:05:00,721 --> 01:05:05,301
but like all of a sudden the UK says, actually, sorry, like, you can't make your donation to

1402
01:05:05,301 --> 01:05:07,921
Alex Jones or whatever the next like controversial thing is.

1403
01:05:08,221 --> 01:05:09,121
People are like, what the fuck?

1404
01:05:09,221 --> 01:05:09,841
I thought I had a dollar.

1405
01:05:10,761 --> 01:05:11,301
Yeah, exactly.

1406
01:05:11,701 --> 01:05:12,141
PBJ.

1407
01:05:13,621 --> 01:05:14,701
And so I don't know.

1408
01:05:14,821 --> 01:05:19,521
I just, I don't know exactly how it's going to roll, but again, the beauty of Bitcoin

1409
01:05:19,521 --> 01:05:21,701
is internet versus intranet.

1410
01:05:22,141 --> 01:05:23,521
And so I don't know if it's going to be

1411
01:05:23,521 --> 01:05:25,621
the first step of that

1412
01:05:25,621 --> 01:05:27,641
is centralized where it's just like Bridge or someone

1413
01:05:27,641 --> 01:05:29,521
actually just runs a Bitcoin or Lightning

1414
01:05:29,521 --> 01:05:31,341
node and they can swap in and out of Tapper

1415
01:05:31,341 --> 01:05:33,201
assets and all these, you know, whatever

1416
01:05:33,201 --> 01:05:35,401
L1 stablecoins, maybe that's step

1417
01:05:35,401 --> 01:05:37,521
one. But it feels like on

1418
01:05:37,521 --> 01:05:39,321
a 10 plus year time horizon,

1419
01:05:39,541 --> 01:05:41,401
internet always wins, open wins. Like there's

1420
01:05:41,401 --> 01:05:43,581
just going to continually be

1421
01:05:43,581 --> 01:05:45,281
new restrictions

1422
01:05:45,281 --> 01:05:47,081
placed on the

1423
01:05:47,081 --> 01:05:49,361
regulated stablecoins and not just

1424
01:05:49,521 --> 01:05:54,081
government restrictions. There's just going to be like sort of mafioso style battles between

1425
01:05:54,081 --> 01:05:59,221
these companies, whereas anyone that can like route through Bitcoin, it'll just work. So I

1426
01:05:59,221 --> 01:06:02,321
don't know how that's going to happen, but internet over intranet.

1427
01:06:03,221 --> 01:06:08,641
So it's still, it feels to me like there's just so many competing business interests

1428
01:06:08,641 --> 01:06:18,781
that I just have a hard time seeing how everyone's going to be like cool with Tether being the only

1429
01:06:18,781 --> 01:06:20,961
issuer. Like whether you're Stripe

1430
01:06:20,961 --> 01:06:21,921
or

1431
01:06:21,921 --> 01:06:24,741
Coinbase or

1432
01:06:24,741 --> 01:06:26,081
JP Morgan to the world

1433
01:06:26,081 --> 01:06:28,421
to just like hand over that

1434
01:06:28,421 --> 01:06:30,601
to Tether. So that trillions

1435
01:06:30,601 --> 01:06:32,881
of dollars is all

1436
01:06:32,881 --> 01:06:34,881
on Tether and that one company

1437
01:06:34,881 --> 01:06:36,601
would be making like

1438
01:06:36,601 --> 01:06:38,881
hundreds of billions

1439
01:06:38,881 --> 01:06:40,261
of dollars of profits a year

1440
01:06:40,261 --> 01:06:41,361
or more.

1441
01:06:41,801 --> 01:06:44,821
I find that very hard to believe.

1442
01:06:45,021 --> 01:06:46,761
So these other very large

1443
01:06:46,761 --> 01:06:48,681
powerful actors are going

1444
01:06:48,681 --> 01:06:50,121
to compete with that.

1445
01:06:50,841 --> 01:06:52,121
And I just find it hard to believe

1446
01:06:52,121 --> 01:06:55,661
that somehow the user experience

1447
01:06:55,661 --> 01:06:59,641
leads to no swaps or bridges

1448
01:06:59,641 --> 01:07:04,061
and everyone's using Tether on Tron.

1449
01:07:04,681 --> 01:07:06,381
I think there will be swaps and bridges.

1450
01:07:06,521 --> 01:07:07,521
Lots of people are working on it.

1451
01:07:07,861 --> 01:07:08,541
And because of that,

1452
01:07:09,181 --> 01:07:11,421
it will be a solved problem

1453
01:07:11,421 --> 01:07:13,181
and then people are going to use

1454
01:07:13,181 --> 01:07:16,601
whatever product is most natural fit for them.

1455
01:07:16,601 --> 01:07:22,181
One more request for product or business I've been hoping to see for a very long time.

1456
01:07:23,001 --> 01:07:30,541
Someone still needs to build lightning network bridges between any of these Bitcoin chains that support HDLCs and Bitcoin.

1457
01:07:31,061 --> 01:07:39,601
Because even if some of these chains don't want to participate in swaps, as long as they support HDLCs,

1458
01:07:39,661 --> 01:07:44,861
there's a huge opportunity here to build that interoperability layer between Bitcoin and any of these chains.

1459
01:07:44,861 --> 01:07:53,161
I don't know if Stripe or any of those guys will support his shield sees or not, but if they do, that's a huge opportunity. Someone should build that company. And if you do, send me a message.

1460
01:07:53,161 --> 01:08:02,241
cool yeah and and just for the record here i'm not claiming that i believe usdt tron is the only

1461
01:08:02,241 --> 01:08:09,161
solution but it feels like if there are going to be others it's there's a lot to navigate here and

1462
01:08:09,161 --> 01:08:15,761
it feels like maybe new use cases that show up are more likely to be the places where there's

1463
01:08:15,761 --> 01:08:22,421
space for them um or like the existing use cases i think the existing use cases you know maybe

1464
01:08:22,421 --> 01:08:29,281
global south use cases probably work well enough for the time being so you kind of need i think new

1465
01:08:29,281 --> 01:08:34,821
use cases to come in like i have dabbled in stable coins out of curiosity but i never use them for

1466
01:08:34,821 --> 01:08:42,321
anything and so is there somebody like jp morgan who would help reveal a use case to me i'm guessing

1467
01:08:42,321 --> 01:08:46,002
this is the same for you guys you probably never actually use them right like you've you've dabbled

1468
01:08:46,002 --> 01:08:51,761
steve and i have sent some back and forth like years ago but we don't actually do any uh something

1469
01:08:51,761 --> 01:08:59,121
like it was it was tether and or usdc on various l1s so i remember the the reason i remember it is

1470
01:08:59,121 --> 01:09:04,901
because it was so surprisingly hard to do anything you wanted to do you're like because you have to

1471
01:09:04,901 --> 01:09:11,621
know oh tether but it's tether on top of polygon or you know some other some other l1 so you kind

1472
01:09:11,621 --> 01:09:16,341
of have to know that pair and then that kind of makes the whole experience really bad so my point

1473
01:09:16,341 --> 01:09:20,801
is not that USDT on Tron wins everything at all times.

1474
01:09:20,881 --> 01:09:25,002
I think USDT on Tron wins at what it's doing,

1475
01:09:25,142 --> 01:09:27,061
which is kind of a newly emergent

1476
01:09:27,061 --> 01:09:30,161
kind of Global South use case of a dollar-like thing.

1477
01:09:30,981 --> 01:09:34,102
But we don't have any stable coins

1478
01:09:34,102 --> 01:09:35,721
really integrated into our lives.

1479
01:09:35,841 --> 01:09:37,261
And so I think the opportunity,

1480
01:09:37,441 --> 01:09:38,381
if there are new things,

1481
01:09:38,461 --> 01:09:40,281
it's to serve sort of new use cases.

1482
01:09:40,381 --> 01:09:42,281
I think we're one example of a new use case

1483
01:09:42,281 --> 01:09:44,901
that is underserved or not served well

1484
01:09:44,901 --> 01:09:51,221
by the you know we need 24 7 settlement um but uh but yeah just how it's all going to play out

1485
01:09:51,221 --> 01:09:55,621
it's kind of fascinating hard to predict i don't i don't feel like i have a a silver bullet

1486
01:09:55,621 --> 01:10:01,621
prediction for how this thing is gonna gonna turn to you guys indy has an interesting point he's

1487
01:10:01,621 --> 01:10:05,961
saying in the chat argentina leads the region in terms of cryptocurrency value received which i

1488
01:10:05,961 --> 01:10:11,561
assume is primarily tether uh estimated 91.1 billion only slightly ahead of brazil's estimated

1489
01:10:11,561 --> 01:10:16,002
a 90.3 billion. If that's true, I mean, those are pretty big numbers. So I guess kind of gets to

1490
01:10:16,002 --> 01:10:19,881
your point that maybe there's going to be network effects in different use cases. I think the

1491
01:10:19,881 --> 01:10:24,781
question is also going to be like, okay, well, you know, if Stripe, Stripe has a shit ton of

1492
01:10:24,781 --> 01:10:28,401
merchants too, right? So they have a clear network effect. So maybe it's kind of like the US bifurcates

1493
01:10:28,401 --> 01:10:32,461
and like they're either going to use Circle or Stripe's coin, Global South uses Tether.

1494
01:10:33,261 --> 01:10:35,721
I want to see who's going to build the stable coins for the eyes, which is your...

1495
01:10:35,721 --> 01:10:40,221
And how does, how does the Stripe, the Stripe, I mean, I get Stripe, big payment network,

1496
01:10:40,221 --> 01:10:45,521
a lot of different, you know, UIs that they could expose, but I'm trying to imagine how

1497
01:10:45,521 --> 01:10:47,781
does the Stripe stable coin work?

1498
01:10:47,881 --> 01:10:53,241
Like, do they get a merchant, you know, surfacing the stable coin on tempo?

1499
01:10:53,241 --> 01:10:59,161
And then I come to it with a temp, like, do I have some wallet then that pays that way?

1500
01:10:59,201 --> 01:11:02,801
Or can I just use Apple pay and it kind of converts to the stable coin or like, yeah,

1501
01:11:02,881 --> 01:11:07,281
I feel like owning a network like that without the use case necessarily demanding a stable

1502
01:11:07,281 --> 01:11:13,401
coin i'm not trying to just see where that bridge if you can't pardon so imagine a world where

1503
01:11:13,401 --> 01:11:19,441
everyone has a stable coin wallet on their phone and then they go to a website or some kind of

1504
01:11:19,441 --> 01:11:24,341
they want to make a purchase and they're presented with stripe instead of paying with visa they pay

1505
01:11:24,341 --> 01:11:32,201
with their mobile wallet but it so the imagine part though we need to imagine a world where

1506
01:11:32,201 --> 01:11:34,021
I start carrying around

1507
01:11:34,021 --> 01:11:36,421
a stablecoin in some

1508
01:11:36,421 --> 01:11:37,581
mobile wallet, right?

1509
01:11:38,261 --> 01:11:39,321
I mean, there's like,

1510
01:11:39,981 --> 01:11:41,701
Trust Wallet has like

1511
01:11:41,701 --> 01:11:44,261
hundreds of millions of downloads

1512
01:11:44,261 --> 01:11:46,201
and while that's

1513
01:11:47,042 --> 01:11:48,581
his Trust Wallet

1514
01:11:48,581 --> 01:11:50,301
and MetaMask and Phantom, that's

1515
01:11:50,301 --> 01:11:52,201
more like gambling casino use case,

1516
01:11:52,301 --> 01:11:54,381
but I mean, you can definitely imagine

1517
01:11:54,381 --> 01:11:56,381
a world where there's hundreds of millions, billions of people

1518
01:11:56,381 --> 01:11:57,761
that have a wallet with stablecoin.

1519
01:11:57,761 --> 01:11:59,761
Those overlapping

1520
01:11:59,761 --> 01:12:01,761
with the BA and

1521
01:12:01,761 --> 01:12:03,561
that, you know. Yeah, exactly.

1522
01:12:03,801 --> 01:12:05,841
Yeah. So, and I think this was

1523
01:12:05,841 --> 01:12:07,681
our mutual friend's point is like the

1524
01:12:07,681 --> 01:12:09,602
people that would download

1525
01:12:09,602 --> 01:12:11,701
a stable coin wallet are the people in the

1526
01:12:11,701 --> 01:12:13,821
global south. So I think his point is you have network

1527
01:12:13,821 --> 01:12:15,581
effects in countries like Argentina

1528
01:12:15,581 --> 01:12:17,861
and Brazil where people actually want and need dollars.

1529
01:12:18,542 --> 01:12:19,602
Why wouldn't any of us download

1530
01:12:19,602 --> 01:12:21,861
a stable coin wallet? I'm not saying that we wouldn't,

1531
01:12:21,941 --> 01:12:23,161
but like we have Apple Pay.

1532
01:12:23,661 --> 01:12:25,761
And maybe they can integrate with Apple Pay, but like unless

1533
01:12:25,761 --> 01:12:27,642
there's some new thing that we can only get

1534
01:12:27,642 --> 01:12:29,661
with the stable coin. Right. Because I can use

1535
01:12:29,661 --> 01:12:31,381
Apple Pay even when the banks are closed. I have

1536
01:12:31,381 --> 01:12:33,721
24-7 access to pay whoever I want with Apple Pay.

1537
01:12:34,261 --> 01:12:34,321
Right?

1538
01:12:35,201 --> 01:12:35,401
Right.

1539
01:12:35,741 --> 01:12:36,841
How sophisticated are you?

1540
01:12:37,081 --> 01:12:39,861
I mean, it's similar to the Bitcoin pitch for merchants,

1541
01:12:40,021 --> 01:12:40,741
cut out Visa.

1542
01:12:40,981 --> 01:12:43,841
Like, you want to cut out these exorbitant fees, right?

1543
01:12:44,181 --> 01:12:46,281
I get why they want to cut out Visa, yeah.

1544
01:12:46,921 --> 01:12:47,102
Yeah.

1545
01:12:47,481 --> 01:12:52,081
So when you unlock billions or trillions of dollars,

1546
01:12:53,042 --> 01:12:54,381
then you can...

1547
01:12:54,381 --> 01:12:55,121
But why does it...

1548
01:12:55,121 --> 01:12:56,681
So I get that from the merchant perspective,

1549
01:12:56,681 --> 01:12:58,681
but the user doesn't even know how any of this works.

1550
01:12:58,901 --> 01:13:00,061
Well, the merchant can give discounts.

1551
01:13:00,061 --> 01:13:01,321
Like a rebate or something?

1552
01:13:01,381 --> 01:13:03,321
It always comes back to this discount,

1553
01:13:03,421 --> 01:13:04,321
which is what people have been saying

1554
01:13:04,321 --> 01:13:05,741
for a long time with payments too.

1555
01:13:05,821 --> 01:13:07,781
And if that actually starts happening, cool.

1556
01:13:07,981 --> 01:13:08,961
But even then, I wonder,

1557
01:13:09,241 --> 01:13:11,441
is saving 2% enough to like,

1558
01:13:11,681 --> 01:13:12,821
okay, I'll give you an example.

1559
01:13:13,241 --> 01:13:14,521
I've been going to this grocery store

1560
01:13:14,521 --> 01:13:15,761
next to my house recently,

1561
01:13:16,181 --> 01:13:17,602
and they have really good,

1562
01:13:17,861 --> 01:13:19,281
clean tasting coconut water.

1563
01:13:19,901 --> 01:13:21,061
And I'm buying a lot of coconut water.

1564
01:13:21,161 --> 01:13:22,221
I'm finding I feel a lot better

1565
01:13:22,221 --> 01:13:23,081
after all my saunas

1566
01:13:23,081 --> 01:13:24,181
with these clean electrolytes.

1567
01:13:24,701 --> 01:13:25,961
And they have like a rewards program.

1568
01:13:26,061 --> 01:13:27,161
And I get a tiny little bit,

1569
01:13:27,201 --> 01:13:28,801
a couple percentage points of cash back.

1570
01:13:29,102 --> 01:13:29,581
And I keep thinking,

1571
01:13:29,681 --> 01:13:30,481
you know, I should download that,

1572
01:13:30,542 --> 01:13:31,042
get a couple of percent.

1573
01:13:31,042 --> 01:13:34,181
And then I'm just like, nah, I don't want to like fuck with the app and all this stuff.

1574
01:13:34,261 --> 01:13:34,602
Yeah, yeah.

1575
01:13:35,161 --> 01:13:35,761
I don't know.

1576
01:13:35,861 --> 01:13:40,481
But I mean, sure, I have examples like that too where I don't waste my time.

1577
01:13:40,481 --> 01:13:47,801
But like clearly people spend an enormous amount of time with like credit cards and points back and dollars back.

1578
01:13:47,901 --> 01:13:52,401
And like there's tons of resources on the internet to compare all these cards.

1579
01:13:52,821 --> 01:13:52,921
Yeah.

1580
01:13:53,121 --> 01:13:55,161
And like a few basis points matters.

1581
01:13:55,542 --> 01:13:59,961
I mean, there's clearly a lot of demand for saving money through that.

1582
01:13:59,961 --> 01:14:07,381
It's fair, but I feel like how many people, I feel like people in our circles probably do that, like people that are like really into research, but like, and I guess, and maybe they represent.

1583
01:14:07,441 --> 01:14:08,481
It's a mainstream thing.

1584
01:14:08,602 --> 01:14:08,961
Is it?

1585
01:14:09,861 --> 01:14:21,092
Yeah I think there is a mainstream thing And also same with discounts Like maybe the reason you don hassle with it anymore is because you don care about a few dollars here and there

1586
01:14:21,192 --> 01:14:21,912
Next is too rich.

1587
01:14:23,352 --> 01:14:26,072
We're talking about getting a quarter.

1588
01:14:26,532 --> 01:14:29,192
You're valuing your time more than a few dollars.

1589
01:14:29,192 --> 01:14:30,972
But tons of people value it.

1590
01:14:31,032 --> 01:14:34,912
I mean, the reason why there's these discounts at these stores

1591
01:14:34,912 --> 01:14:36,352
is very popular, very mainstream.

1592
01:14:36,352 --> 01:14:39,332
and I think the rewards programs

1593
01:14:39,332 --> 01:14:40,212
and you know

1594
01:14:40,212 --> 01:14:41,232
optimizing credit cards

1595
01:14:41,232 --> 01:14:42,192
is like a hobby

1596
01:14:42,192 --> 01:14:43,412
of a lot of people

1597
01:14:43,412 --> 01:14:44,932
like people love that stuff

1598
01:14:44,932 --> 01:14:45,532
even though it's

1599
01:14:45,532 --> 01:14:46,852
I think it's mostly irrational

1600
01:14:46,852 --> 01:14:48,312
yeah they're very like

1601
01:14:48,312 --> 01:14:50,532
it's a particular personality

1602
01:14:50,532 --> 01:14:51,172
yeah

1603
01:14:51,172 --> 01:14:54,972
Austin was mentioning

1604
01:14:54,972 --> 01:14:56,372
you can put 200k on Coinbase

1605
01:14:56,372 --> 01:14:57,152
and get 4%

1606
01:14:57,152 --> 01:14:58,612
on your credit card now

1607
01:14:58,612 --> 01:14:59,932
what do you mean

1608
01:14:59,932 --> 01:15:00,712
200k on Coinbase

1609
01:15:00,712 --> 01:15:01,852
that sounds really mainstream

1610
01:15:01,852 --> 01:15:02,972
yeah

1611
01:15:02,972 --> 01:15:04,892
4% on 200k

1612
01:15:04,892 --> 01:15:06,292
putting $200,000

1613
01:15:06,292 --> 01:15:07,112
into Coinbase?

1614
01:15:07,472 --> 01:15:08,812
Why doesn't everyone do that?

1615
01:15:08,852 --> 01:15:09,572
That's a very mainstream.

1616
01:15:11,392 --> 01:15:13,212
Everyone has an extra $200,000

1617
01:15:13,212 --> 01:15:14,492
to throw on the Coinbase.

1618
01:15:14,592 --> 01:15:16,872
I think he's saying $200,000 Bitcoin

1619
01:15:16,872 --> 01:15:18,072
in KSATs.

1620
01:15:18,432 --> 01:15:19,972
No, it's $200,000.

1621
01:15:20,492 --> 01:15:20,892
I'm joking.

1622
01:15:21,252 --> 01:15:21,392
Okay.

1623
01:15:22,032 --> 01:15:23,872
If you put $200,000 on Coinbase,

1624
01:15:23,952 --> 01:15:25,652
then you can get 4% back.

1625
01:15:26,232 --> 01:15:27,312
That almost is like

1626
01:15:27,312 --> 01:15:28,412
a little bit at odds.

1627
01:15:28,412 --> 01:15:29,232
This guy doesn't know

1628
01:15:29,232 --> 01:15:30,372
the price of a gallon of milk.

1629
01:15:30,812 --> 01:15:32,352
Rich people care less

1630
01:15:32,352 --> 01:15:33,532
about the points back.

1631
01:15:33,592 --> 01:15:34,652
I feel I should just say

1632
01:15:34,652 --> 01:15:35,972
I am actually quite cheap.

1633
01:15:35,972 --> 01:15:41,112
you guys know i'm very chen yeah we know again i'm extremely but believe me i know i know the

1634
01:15:41,112 --> 01:15:44,972
price well i don't know the price of gallon milk because i don't drink milk but anyways whatever

1635
01:15:44,972 --> 01:15:50,192
i've minds doing better than we i'm lazy if anything i'm lazy

1636
01:15:50,192 --> 01:15:53,152
the shippy bc

1637
01:15:53,152 --> 01:16:02,792
um okay uh stable coins more commentary did you guys have anything else on this topic i know we're

1638
01:16:02,792 --> 01:16:06,272
we're only 15 minutes before we hit

1639
01:16:06,272 --> 01:16:08,712
let me ask you guys

1640
01:16:08,712 --> 01:16:12,352
same topic but just a different angle

1641
01:16:12,352 --> 01:16:13,552
let's say you're

1642
01:16:13,552 --> 01:16:18,292
whether you're a startup building a new product

1643
01:16:18,292 --> 01:16:20,132
like a new wallet

1644
01:16:20,132 --> 01:16:23,192
or you're at some fintech company or whatever

1645
01:16:23,192 --> 01:16:25,952
and you decide

1646
01:16:25,952 --> 01:16:29,612
stable coins, they're important

1647
01:16:29,612 --> 01:16:31,672
we need a stable coin strategy

1648
01:16:31,672 --> 01:16:37,992
we're going to do stable coins what do you what does that mean then what do you do what is it what

1649
01:16:37,992 --> 01:16:43,752
do you do when you add stable coins which which issuance which platforms yeah sounds a lot like

1650
01:16:43,752 --> 01:16:49,452
we need a blockchain strategy but how do you how do you think how do you think through that and

1651
01:16:49,452 --> 01:16:56,372
decide geez i mean i i don't know i i feel like a lot of it is like who is the customer of this

1652
01:16:56,372 --> 01:17:04,192
business what are the use cases where that customer um would change behavior for a different

1653
01:17:04,192 --> 01:17:10,752
pricing scheme right so that's why i'm i'm i feel like we have to to answer this question we have to

1654
01:17:10,752 --> 01:17:14,332
really think through the details it's not just oh stable coins are big let's do stable coins which

1655
01:17:14,332 --> 01:17:17,992
i think is kind of what's happening in the market it was like oh we want a piece of that action

1656
01:17:17,992 --> 01:17:22,112
did you see tether how are you just going to let tether run away with all that yield we want some

1657
01:17:22,112 --> 01:17:25,652
the yield piece. I get it. You want the yield, but how are you going to get the yield? Well,

1658
01:17:25,652 --> 01:17:30,952
the only way you really do this sustainably is to create value for people. So if now you're in

1659
01:17:30,952 --> 01:17:35,112
charge of like the blockchain group or the stable coin group, I think the big question is like,

1660
01:17:35,252 --> 01:17:40,092
who are our customers? What do they want? What kinds of incentives could we get them to do

1661
01:17:40,092 --> 01:17:45,412
something that they don't naturally want, but that we want and try to make that whole thing

1662
01:17:45,412 --> 01:17:51,752
fit together. And to be honest, I don't know that I'm super convinced that most, like, I think it

1663
01:17:51,752 --> 01:18:00,072
would be hard for a u.s business running stripe to have a really compelling offering for why i should

1664
01:18:00,072 --> 01:18:05,732
carry digital dollars and pay them with digital dollars i feel like apple pays a fine solution i

1665
01:18:05,732 --> 01:18:10,392
think you can get credit cards to get you cash back and stuff like that so i'm like skeptical

1666
01:18:10,392 --> 01:18:16,752
that there's just like a really good silver bullet answer here um but i think it's it's got to be like

1667
01:18:16,752 --> 01:18:19,052
where are you creating value for your customers?

1668
01:18:19,872 --> 01:18:21,752
And then you can maybe share some of that value

1669
01:18:21,752 --> 01:18:23,352
to get your customers to do something

1670
01:18:23,352 --> 01:18:25,252
that they don't otherwise naturally want to do.

1671
01:18:25,732 --> 01:18:28,412
All right, as long as you don't break the law

1672
01:18:28,412 --> 01:18:29,632
with the Genius Act.

1673
01:18:29,912 --> 01:18:30,472
Right, right.

1674
01:18:30,592 --> 01:18:31,972
But there's probably ways around that.

1675
01:18:32,572 --> 01:18:34,532
If I were asked for my company,

1676
01:18:34,832 --> 01:18:36,652
what would be my stablecoin strategy?

1677
01:18:37,172 --> 01:18:39,972
I would start by saying, let's buy Bitcoin.

1678
01:18:41,572 --> 01:18:43,432
Yeah, the stablecoin strategy.

1679
01:18:43,432 --> 01:18:43,792
Exactly.

1680
01:18:43,792 --> 01:18:52,872
that's a stretch exactly very very well played so actually yeah i think that's that's an interesting

1681
01:18:52,872 --> 01:18:58,752
new market let's say right like actually i don't i don't hold u.s dollars but if i did

1682
01:18:58,752 --> 01:19:07,592
i would rather hold them in a in a you know stretch yielding money market like fund uh and

1683
01:19:07,592 --> 01:19:15,652
And so you could imagine somebody who is interested in holding US dollars would be attracted to that kind of thing.

1684
01:19:15,712 --> 01:19:23,432
And if you can say, hey, look, we're going to take our major competitors getting all this yield instead of that, use our stable coins and get 9% yourself.

1685
01:19:23,772 --> 01:19:27,532
I think maybe 2% sounds kind of small, but I think Stretch is paying 9%.

1686
01:19:27,532 --> 01:19:29,412
So if there were a Stretch stable coin.

1687
01:19:29,732 --> 01:19:30,632
I would switch for that.

1688
01:19:31,052 --> 01:19:36,452
I think a lot of people who are interested in holding dollars, again, I wouldn't count myself among that.

1689
01:19:36,452 --> 01:19:50,812
But I think if you're interested in holding dollars, I think a stretch stablecoin would be a very different value prop, which doesn't try to compete directly with the Tether on Tron value prop.

1690
01:19:51,252 --> 01:19:52,652
I agree 100%.

1691
01:19:52,652 --> 01:19:58,372
And honestly, I think the biggest threat to Tether right now is MicroStrategy paying 9%.

1692
01:19:58,372 --> 01:19:59,732
2%, maybe not.

1693
01:19:59,992 --> 01:20:02,492
If MicroStrategy can pay you a lot, yes, that starts.

1694
01:20:02,492 --> 01:20:11,992
And I guess if Global South right now, I guess like the, I think the contention would be that it's already a network effect, already have entrenched habits, already have wallets, et cetera.

1695
01:20:12,572 --> 01:20:17,612
I think people maybe wouldn't pay, wouldn't change just for like a little bit of yield split.

1696
01:20:18,012 --> 01:20:26,792
But if it felt like they were giving up a lot of yield split, I think in that case, Tether, you know, Tether on Tron may be disruptible.

1697
01:20:26,972 --> 01:20:31,692
But my guess is it kind of enters, you know, sly roundabout way, not straight through the front door.

1698
01:20:31,692 --> 01:20:34,772
So the other thing I just want to mention, so I agree 100%.

1699
01:20:34,772 --> 01:20:37,112
So I meant this unironically.

1700
01:20:37,252 --> 01:20:40,732
If someone actually asked me for the stablecoin strategy, I would say to buy Bitcoin instead.

1701
01:20:40,852 --> 01:20:46,132
I think Stripe would be much better served just buying Bitcoin than trying to get the stablecoin wars, but so be it.

1702
01:20:46,952 --> 01:20:49,152
Max wants everybody to be a treasury company.

1703
01:20:49,312 --> 01:20:50,192
We don't have enough.

1704
01:20:50,792 --> 01:20:51,372
So be it.

1705
01:20:51,772 --> 01:20:55,572
Well, again, treasury company, let's say in the block style.

1706
01:20:56,332 --> 01:20:59,012
That always gets lost in conversations.

1707
01:20:59,012 --> 01:21:01,432
You guys are doing a better job framing it that way.

1708
01:21:01,432 --> 01:21:05,152
but everyone else, they lump it all together.

1709
01:21:05,372 --> 01:21:08,392
And it's extremely different strategy.

1710
01:21:08,492 --> 01:21:10,412
100% different strategy.

1711
01:21:10,732 --> 01:21:11,992
It only exists to hold Bitcoin

1712
01:21:11,992 --> 01:21:14,732
or does it exist to serve another business purpose

1713
01:21:14,732 --> 01:21:17,412
and then it chooses to hold the treasury and Bitcoin?

1714
01:21:17,592 --> 01:21:18,072
How about this?

1715
01:21:18,252 --> 01:21:21,612
I'm going to sort of diverge and say,

1716
01:21:21,732 --> 01:21:23,612
if you're just putting your profits in Bitcoin,

1717
01:21:23,832 --> 01:21:24,192
I'm just going to say,

1718
01:21:24,272 --> 01:21:25,552
just use Bitcoin as a savings technology.

1719
01:21:25,652 --> 01:21:26,552
It's not a treasury company.

1720
01:21:26,632 --> 01:21:28,532
You're just using Bitcoin for what it's intended as.

1721
01:21:28,592 --> 01:21:29,852
You're just using it as a savings technology.

1722
01:21:29,852 --> 01:21:38,892
So if I were running Stripe, I would tell them, guys, let's start, you know, stop trying to find the next Stellar Lumen and let's just save in Bitcoin because it works.

1723
01:21:39,032 --> 01:21:39,872
Okay, so that would be number one.

1724
01:21:40,432 --> 01:21:44,612
Number two, I have a response to that, but I'll wait.

1725
01:21:44,812 --> 01:21:46,012
This is just my take.

1726
01:21:46,232 --> 01:21:52,732
Number two, I think the most likely thing to pop would be tokenizing or whatever the stretch, 9%, even 5%.

1727
01:21:52,732 --> 01:21:54,112
That's something really interesting.

1728
01:21:54,112 --> 01:21:56,732
but I think if I were thinking longer term

1729
01:21:56,732 --> 01:21:59,272
as we discussed with Bitcoin payments as well

1730
01:21:59,272 --> 01:22:00,332
to your point DK

1731
01:22:00,332 --> 01:22:03,412
I actually I love the way you frame this

1732
01:22:03,412 --> 01:22:05,032
in general for any business conversation

1733
01:22:05,032 --> 01:22:06,032
I hate when people are always like

1734
01:22:06,032 --> 01:22:06,972
yeah let's start with like

1735
01:22:06,972 --> 01:22:07,972
where can we make some money

1736
01:22:07,972 --> 01:22:09,032
it's like that's so dumb

1737
01:22:09,032 --> 01:22:11,192
it's like what can we actually offer to the world

1738
01:22:11,192 --> 01:22:12,432
and then if we do a good job of that

1739
01:22:12,432 --> 01:22:13,272
we can make some money on it

1740
01:22:13,272 --> 01:22:13,452
cool

1741
01:22:13,452 --> 01:22:16,332
and so the two areas that I would be really focused on

1742
01:22:16,332 --> 01:22:17,212
one remittances

1743
01:22:17,212 --> 01:22:18,452
there's a lot of people in the US

1744
01:22:18,452 --> 01:22:19,552
sending a lot of money back home

1745
01:22:19,552 --> 01:22:20,152
I just realized

1746
01:22:20,152 --> 01:22:21,712
do you guys know how big the remittance flows

1747
01:22:21,712 --> 01:22:22,632
to Guatemala right now

1748
01:22:22,632 --> 01:22:23,452
I know Mexico is huge

1749
01:22:23,452 --> 01:22:29,052
but even i don't know the number okay uh 20 billion dollars a year right now it's been

1750
01:22:29,052 --> 01:22:35,292
exploding okay if i can get stable coin users guatemalans or mexicans in the united states

1751
01:22:35,292 --> 01:22:42,252
cool there's a real use case there boom that's one example for people like you me and uh dk

1752
01:22:42,252 --> 01:22:49,292
i would say something with stable coins for ai why because the bots are never going to work for

1753
01:22:49,292 --> 01:22:53,812
Apple Pay or Visa or like these like antiquated ACH, whatever old school things.

1754
01:22:54,112 --> 01:22:57,212
So I don't know what that answer is, but I would be going all in on just like sponsoring

1755
01:22:57,212 --> 01:22:59,452
tons of hackathons, getting people to use my stable coin with AI.

1756
01:22:59,792 --> 01:23:00,732
And that's all I would focus on.

1757
01:23:01,452 --> 01:23:06,672
Yeah, I feel like that's a great example of a new use case where people may not get Bitcoin

1758
01:23:06,672 --> 01:23:08,552
or care about Bitcoin, but they get dollars.

1759
01:23:08,632 --> 01:23:13,512
And if they can use a digital dollar to have their AIs pay each other, I think that's a

1760
01:23:13,512 --> 01:23:14,732
great example of a new use case.

1761
01:23:15,032 --> 01:23:17,792
So that to me feels like an area where you could disrupt.

1762
01:23:17,792 --> 01:23:27,052
But then again, if you're just in charge of this tablecoin arm of another existing business, that may not make sense with the existing business, right?

1763
01:23:28,052 --> 01:23:36,172
So a couple of things. One, I looked up Stretch. And for people wondering what we're talking about, STRC, stock ticker symbol.

1764
01:23:36,172 --> 01:23:40,612
it's trading at $95.05

1765
01:23:40,612 --> 01:23:41,292
right now

1766
01:23:41,292 --> 01:23:43,052
so it is below

1767
01:23:43,052 --> 01:23:45,072
the

1768
01:23:45,072 --> 01:23:48,232
I mean they want it to be

1769
01:23:48,232 --> 01:23:49,932
$100 right they want it to be stable

1770
01:23:49,932 --> 01:23:52,332
it hit as low

1771
01:23:52,332 --> 01:23:53,192
as $92

1772
01:23:53,192 --> 01:23:56,312
in the past week

1773
01:23:56,312 --> 01:23:58,312
so it's up to $95

1774
01:23:58,312 --> 01:24:00,092
it's as high as $98

1775
01:24:00,092 --> 01:24:02,212
is that good for

1776
01:24:02,212 --> 01:24:04,392
yield like if you buy it at $92

1777
01:24:04,392 --> 01:24:05,352
well their ideal world

1778
01:24:05,352 --> 01:24:08,992
They started at 9% to test the market.

1779
01:24:09,552 --> 01:24:15,672
Because if it can be traded at $100 and offer 9%, that's great news for them.

1780
01:24:15,972 --> 01:24:17,892
In fact, maybe they'd even raise the percentage then.

1781
01:24:18,432 --> 01:24:21,732
But if it's trading at 95, that's not stable.

1782
01:24:22,632 --> 01:24:27,652
So they will need to lower, or they may need to lower the interest rate.

1783
01:24:27,912 --> 01:24:28,912
No, lower the interest rate.

1784
01:24:29,412 --> 01:24:32,152
Wouldn't it be raised because they want more people to buy the instrument?

1785
01:24:32,152 --> 01:24:35,732
So if they're offering 9%, if they offer 10%,

1786
01:24:35,732 --> 01:24:36,852
I'm more likely to buy the instrument.

1787
01:24:36,952 --> 01:24:39,252
No, I think people are trading it down

1788
01:24:39,252 --> 01:24:41,732
because of the risk concern

1789
01:24:41,732 --> 01:24:43,392
that they won't be able to pay it off.

1790
01:24:43,532 --> 01:24:46,092
Right, but wouldn't you need to sweeten the pot

1791
01:24:46,092 --> 01:24:47,432
by paying a higher interest rate

1792
01:24:47,432 --> 01:24:50,292
to get people to still take that extra risk?

1793
01:24:50,712 --> 01:24:52,452
What I'm saying is if we're trading over $100,

1794
01:24:52,752 --> 01:24:53,992
then they would lower the interest rate

1795
01:24:53,992 --> 01:24:56,872
because, oh, we don't need to pay 9%, we could pay 5%.

1796
01:24:56,872 --> 01:25:00,952
But if it's trading below $100 at 9%,

1797
01:25:00,952 --> 01:25:03,652
that they need to try 10 or 11, which is crazy to me.

1798
01:25:03,812 --> 01:25:05,872
But that's my take.

1799
01:25:06,432 --> 01:25:07,032
What's your take, DK?

1800
01:25:08,352 --> 01:25:15,332
Yeah, I would guess the pricing is obviously set by the market.

1801
01:25:15,452 --> 01:25:16,992
There's just bids and asks, right?

1802
01:25:17,432 --> 01:25:21,272
So the reason it's not 100 is because people don't want to own it at 100

1803
01:25:21,272 --> 01:25:24,752
if it's only paying out $9 per.

1804
01:25:24,752 --> 01:25:34,232
My question is when the bidding goes down to 92, does it still pay out $9 or does it pay out 9% of 92?

1805
01:25:34,872 --> 01:25:36,292
I think it still pays out $9.

1806
01:25:36,612 --> 01:25:37,272
I think it pays out $9.

1807
01:25:38,972 --> 01:25:43,512
So my point is, if people aren't buying it, if I pay you $10, then $11.

1808
01:25:43,652 --> 01:25:47,072
Like there's some, I mean, there's some rate at which those two things will match.

1809
01:25:47,992 --> 01:25:52,572
We should look it up later though as to whether it's a fixed.

1810
01:25:52,572 --> 01:25:56,872
All this finance, fiat finance talk is hurting my head.

1811
01:25:57,372 --> 01:25:57,732
I agree, man.

1812
01:25:57,852 --> 01:26:00,972
I can't wait till stablecoins and everything is just gone.

1813
01:26:01,652 --> 01:26:05,032
One day there will be an energy-backed currency that we all use

1814
01:26:05,032 --> 01:26:07,132
and we can drop this little messy nonsense.

1815
01:26:07,472 --> 01:26:09,032
The other thing I wanted to comment on, though,

1816
01:26:09,112 --> 01:26:10,972
is back to the Stripe example.

1817
01:26:11,132 --> 01:26:12,532
That was partially tug-of-cheek, by the way.

1818
01:26:13,052 --> 01:26:14,292
I just wanted to respond.

1819
01:26:14,392 --> 01:26:16,292
Your first point about Stripe, they should just hold Bitcoin?

1820
01:26:16,292 --> 01:26:20,532
I don't really, or I mean, in isolation, sure, that's fine.

1821
01:26:20,532 --> 01:26:22,892
but I think it's, to me, it's apples to oranges,

1822
01:26:23,392 --> 01:26:24,632
like what they're trying to do with stable.

1823
01:26:24,932 --> 01:26:28,052
Like, currently they have a big business

1824
01:26:28,052 --> 01:26:30,472
based on TradFi.

1825
01:26:31,012 --> 01:26:33,672
If they see a world in which things move

1826
01:26:33,672 --> 01:26:36,332
from dollars and Visa to dollars and stable coins,

1827
01:26:36,672 --> 01:26:38,292
if they don't latch onto that world

1828
01:26:38,292 --> 01:26:39,512
and they stay in the old world,

1829
01:26:39,652 --> 01:26:41,172
their profits are going to go to zero

1830
01:26:41,172 --> 01:26:43,892
and then they'll have no profits to put into Bitcoin.

1831
01:26:44,092 --> 01:26:45,572
So that's a failed direction.

1832
01:26:45,992 --> 01:26:48,272
If they see a world moving to stable coins

1833
01:26:48,272 --> 01:26:49,892
and they embrace that,

1834
01:26:49,892 --> 01:26:52,052
they make a lot of fees and profits off of that.

1835
01:26:52,172 --> 01:26:53,992
They can still put it in Bitcoin.

1836
01:26:54,172 --> 01:26:57,112
So it seems, they seem orthogonal to me.

1837
01:26:57,412 --> 01:26:59,112
I was mostly being in tongue-in-cheek.

1838
01:26:59,632 --> 01:27:01,892
However, I will say that...

1839
01:27:01,892 --> 01:27:05,012
You're just waiting for my response.

1840
01:27:06,132 --> 01:27:09,132
However, I will say it reminds me just a little bit.

1841
01:27:09,872 --> 01:27:11,892
Like, and honestly, I'll just say this,

1842
01:27:12,012 --> 01:27:14,192
like increasingly Striped was just like a Coinbase.

1843
01:27:14,592 --> 01:27:18,212
Like, I mean, they had the chance

1844
01:27:18,212 --> 01:27:19,672
to be a generational company.

1845
01:27:19,772 --> 01:27:20,332
They already are.

1846
01:27:20,432 --> 01:27:21,452
I think they're going to squander it.

1847
01:27:21,532 --> 01:27:22,172
Same as Coinbase.

1848
01:27:22,352 --> 01:27:24,152
Like, yeah, Coinbase made a lot of fees

1849
01:27:24,152 --> 01:27:24,832
trading shitcoins.

1850
01:27:25,552 --> 01:27:27,752
And he could have been Michael Saylor,

1851
01:27:27,912 --> 01:27:28,772
or as Alex said,

1852
01:27:28,792 --> 01:27:30,612
he could have built the next JP Morgan instead.

1853
01:27:30,992 --> 01:27:31,812
It's going to stay Caesar's.

1854
01:27:31,812 --> 01:27:33,452
And now they're starting to gobble up some Bitcoin,

1855
01:27:33,632 --> 01:27:36,072
but 15 years too late or whatever it's been.

1856
01:27:36,372 --> 01:27:37,292
I mean, they're going to do fine.

1857
01:27:37,372 --> 01:27:38,032
Coinbase is going to be fine.

1858
01:27:38,112 --> 01:27:38,552
They're going to stick around.

1859
01:27:38,972 --> 01:27:40,112
My point is just like,

1860
01:27:40,572 --> 01:27:42,212
play fiat games, win fiat prizes.

1861
01:27:42,652 --> 01:27:43,272
It is what it is.

1862
01:27:44,892 --> 01:27:46,532
Speaking of casinos,

1863
01:27:46,532 --> 01:27:49,852
it just reminded me of a conversation I was having

1864
01:27:49,852 --> 01:27:51,232
did you see

1865
01:27:51,232 --> 01:27:52,712
and this is not a casino

1866
01:27:52,712 --> 01:27:56,232
but it might run the risk if it were to launch such a feature

1867
01:27:56,232 --> 01:27:57,352
so I wanted to

1868
01:27:57,352 --> 01:28:00,732
get your guys real time feedback on this

1869
01:28:00,732 --> 01:28:02,792
you guys are Lava users

1870
01:28:02,792 --> 01:28:04,152
customers, investors

1871
01:28:04,152 --> 01:28:06,932
demo beta users or something right?

1872
01:28:07,532 --> 01:28:08,532
familiar with the interface?

1873
01:28:09,972 --> 01:28:11,092
are you trying to like

1874
01:28:11,092 --> 01:28:11,632
out of something?

1875
01:28:12,392 --> 01:28:15,792
I've heard of Lava

1876
01:28:15,792 --> 01:28:23,192
You've heard of lava. You're familiar with what it is. So you can deposit Bitcoin, you can get a loan in stablecoin dollars.

1877
01:28:23,812 --> 01:28:24,852
Or in some bank account.

1878
01:28:25,732 --> 01:28:31,132
Well, you could get the loan in stablecoin dollars and then you can off ramp it from stablecoin dollars to bank account in whatever way you like.

1879
01:28:32,132 --> 01:28:37,952
And some people take the stablecoins and use it to buy Bitcoin.

1880
01:28:38,792 --> 01:28:44,512
So they're effectively depositing Bitcoin to get a loan in stablecoin to buy Bitcoin.

1881
01:28:44,512 --> 01:28:50,092
so you can see there's a little circularity there it's like a form of leverage my question is if you

1882
01:28:50,092 --> 01:29:00,332
were in charge of lava would you try to support that behavior more and give more like simplification

1883
01:29:00,332 --> 01:29:07,432
of that in the ui and help people do that and help people understand the risks or model out

1884
01:29:07,432 --> 01:29:11,572
the flows or would you try to somehow prevent that or limit that kind of behavior

1885
01:29:11,572 --> 01:29:15,392
I feel like I'm being put on the spot

1886
01:29:15,392 --> 01:29:16,752
I know, this is a hot one

1887
01:29:16,752 --> 01:29:18,632
I think yes

1888
01:29:18,632 --> 01:29:21,452
I'm not

1889
01:29:21,452 --> 01:29:25,372
today's use cases

1890
01:29:25,372 --> 01:29:26,792
I think are leverage

1891
01:29:26,792 --> 01:29:29,912
leverage slash shitcoin gambling

1892
01:29:29,912 --> 01:29:31,732
so you want to get a loan

1893
01:29:31,732 --> 01:29:33,672
on your Bitcoin because you want to go gamble

1894
01:29:33,672 --> 01:29:35,792
in Solana ecosystem or Ethereum

1895
01:29:35,792 --> 01:29:37,692
and buy meme coins and try to

1896
01:29:37,692 --> 01:29:39,032
moon and get leverage there

1897
01:29:39,032 --> 01:29:41,532
or you're a Bitcoin maximalist but you

1898
01:29:41,532 --> 01:29:45,572
just want to grow your stack, you're willing to take that risk, which is the scenario you presented.

1899
01:29:46,632 --> 01:29:53,092
So if we assume that's today's market and where the billions of dollars are being traded and not

1900
01:29:53,092 --> 01:30:01,012
other markets yet, then if I'm starting a company that's in the mix there, I think the most wholesome

1901
01:30:01,012 --> 01:30:06,492
way to do it while still making money would be to focus on the Bitcoin maximalists who want to

1902
01:30:06,492 --> 01:30:08,312
lever up and do what you just said.

1903
01:30:09,272 --> 01:30:09,872
Otherwise,

1904
01:30:10,972 --> 01:30:12,512
you're probably in

1905
01:30:12,512 --> 01:30:14,512
for a long road

1906
01:30:14,512 --> 01:30:15,612
to wait for

1907
01:30:15,612 --> 01:30:18,512
even more wholesome activities like

1908
01:30:18,512 --> 01:30:20,372
getting a loan to buy a home

1909
01:30:20,372 --> 01:30:21,972
or a boat or

1910
01:30:21,972 --> 01:30:24,392
your child's college expenses

1911
01:30:24,392 --> 01:30:26,572
or whatever, or you have a sudden

1912
01:30:26,572 --> 01:30:28,332
medical expense or something.

1913
01:30:29,912 --> 01:30:30,452
Those...

1914
01:30:30,452 --> 01:30:31,212
Oh, it's wholesome again?

1915
01:30:32,072 --> 01:30:34,052
I think that'll be...

1916
01:30:34,052 --> 01:30:36,392
I think that will become a very

1917
01:30:36,392 --> 01:30:43,772
large business, but like over a 10 plus year period. Yeah. I mean, I think I, um, I think it

1918
01:30:43,772 --> 01:30:51,212
depends on what Shazan wants to do. I mean, I think the, so, I mean, I know, I know these Bitcoiners

1919
01:30:51,212 --> 01:30:56,112
are good, wholesome people like the, uh, the shit quarters. Um, just kidding. There's, there's

1920
01:30:56,112 --> 01:31:02,352
plenty of Jajira Bitcoiners too, but, um, I mean, on the one hand, I don't really think,

1921
01:31:02,352 --> 01:31:06,092
you know, personally, it's like, it's not really any of my business what someone wants to do with

1922
01:31:06,092 --> 01:31:09,932
their own money. And so if they want to do that, like more power to them. I mean, I think it's

1923
01:31:09,932 --> 01:31:13,992
obviously good to surface the risks and explain it. But like, I think an interesting story is

1924
01:31:13,992 --> 01:31:21,812
in the early days, if I recall correctly, BitMEX got very, very little adoption on their platform

1925
01:31:21,812 --> 01:31:25,352
until they were doing like 2X leverage or something. Then all of a sudden when they

1926
01:31:25,352 --> 01:31:30,492
offered 100X, they became a pretty big platform. And like people are going to do it again.

1927
01:31:30,572 --> 01:31:34,192
And obviously this is not like that. And also we have a question in the chat, like how is this not

1928
01:31:34,192 --> 01:31:37,572
capital gains. We've talked about this a lot in the past. You can find some of those earlier episodes,

1929
01:31:37,892 --> 01:31:41,952
but they use discrete law contracts, DLCs, the Bitcoins held in a contract, and you only get

1930
01:31:41,952 --> 01:31:46,052
liquidated if it reaches a certain price. I'm of the view that this is just

1931
01:31:46,052 --> 01:31:49,932
a loophole intended to keep the wealthy and connected wealthy and connected,

1932
01:31:50,132 --> 01:31:53,212
and now it's available to everyone. I don't like the laws, but it is what it is.

1933
01:31:55,352 --> 01:31:58,212
The ability to take out loans against capital assets.

1934
01:31:59,852 --> 01:32:02,232
But if I were Shazan, and that's

1935
01:32:02,232 --> 01:32:07,232
what people want to use it for, I would probably allow them to use that. But I also have to

1936
01:32:07,232 --> 01:32:11,152
say, I can see the opposite side of this. I really respect Alex at River, who's basically,

1937
01:32:11,272 --> 01:32:13,612
I don't want to do any lending. It's just not the kind of business I want to build.

1938
01:32:13,692 --> 01:32:15,752
So I could see going either way. It just depends on what he wants to do.

1939
01:32:16,512 --> 01:32:24,732
I see no ethical issue with leverage to buy more at Bitcoin. It can absolutely be irresponsibly

1940
01:32:24,732 --> 01:32:30,952
done, but it also can be responsibly done. If you're in your early 20s, just starting

1941
01:32:30,952 --> 01:32:32,952
your career, you don't really

1942
01:32:32,952 --> 01:32:34,792
have that much money because you're just starting your career.

1943
01:32:35,552 --> 01:32:36,712
But you have

1944
01:32:36,712 --> 01:32:38,052
the conviction that

1945
01:32:38,052 --> 01:32:40,772
for example, we have about Bitcoin

1946
01:32:40,772 --> 01:32:41,832
and where

1947
01:32:41,832 --> 01:32:44,012
you think it's going to go.

1948
01:32:45,852 --> 01:32:46,792
Getting leverage

1949
01:32:46,792 --> 01:32:48,392
to grow your stack, I think

1950
01:32:48,392 --> 01:32:51,032
whether it's 2x or 100x

1951
01:32:51,032 --> 01:32:53,092
matters, right? But some leverage

1952
01:32:53,092 --> 01:32:54,932
I think completely

1953
01:32:54,932 --> 01:32:56,992
is reasonable. Because if it's a

1954
01:32:56,992 --> 01:32:58,192
failed bet,

1955
01:32:58,712 --> 01:33:00,872
you're young and you didn't

1956
01:33:00,872 --> 01:33:04,792
even really risk that much money in the first place compared to your future earning power.

1957
01:33:04,932 --> 01:33:07,412
So I don't think it's like an ethical quandary at all.

1958
01:33:07,552 --> 01:33:10,532
I think one way, and again, like I'm seeing a lot of things tongue and cheek, I think

1959
01:33:10,532 --> 01:33:13,352
ultimately people are adults and they can make up their own minds.

1960
01:33:13,512 --> 01:33:15,872
It's not really my place to say or the company's place.

1961
01:33:15,992 --> 01:33:18,992
Although it could be the company's place if they have a specific vision of the world,

1962
01:33:19,332 --> 01:33:20,332
but that just comes down to the founder.

1963
01:33:20,492 --> 01:33:23,572
Like I don't think Alex wants to do this and I respect that, but I also don't think it's

1964
01:33:23,572 --> 01:33:24,672
like a bad thing to offer it.

1965
01:33:24,852 --> 01:33:30,372
So I think one thing you could do is you could have like, potentially this could be interesting

1966
01:33:30,372 --> 01:33:31,092
for design week,

1967
01:33:31,132 --> 01:33:32,312
you can have a user interface

1968
01:33:32,312 --> 01:33:33,272
or experience

1969
01:33:33,272 --> 01:33:34,692
where you're allowed

1970
01:33:34,692 --> 01:33:35,972
to take a loan

1971
01:33:35,972 --> 01:33:36,592
against your Bitcoin

1972
01:33:36,592 --> 01:33:37,372
to get more leverage,

1973
01:33:37,672 --> 01:33:38,212
but there's just like

1974
01:33:38,212 --> 01:33:39,172
a few questions

1975
01:33:39,172 --> 01:33:39,932
they ask you first.

1976
01:33:40,032 --> 01:33:40,492
Like, for example,

1977
01:33:40,672 --> 01:33:41,992
like, do you own any chairs?

1978
01:33:42,112 --> 01:33:42,512
Or like,

1979
01:33:42,632 --> 01:33:43,472
do you still have a kidney?

1980
01:33:44,392 --> 01:33:45,172
I thought you were going

1981
01:33:45,172 --> 01:33:46,852
to suggest a skibbity UI.

1982
01:33:48,632 --> 01:33:49,932
Max up the menu gate

1983
01:33:49,932 --> 01:33:51,112
to help regulate this.

1984
01:33:51,152 --> 01:33:51,772
And you could have

1985
01:33:51,772 --> 01:33:52,432
like a little kidney

1986
01:33:52,432 --> 01:33:52,952
like figure,

1987
01:33:53,052 --> 01:33:53,372
and it's like,

1988
01:33:53,432 --> 01:33:54,172
if you still have a kidney,

1989
01:33:54,312 --> 01:33:55,292
like we might suggest

1990
01:33:55,292 --> 01:33:56,552
exploring that option first.

1991
01:33:58,832 --> 01:33:59,192
Just,

1992
01:33:59,192 --> 01:34:11,792
We should wrap up, but just the last comment, which you spoke to already, but Program Scarcity says, I don't get how the Bitcoin loan companies work. They hold the private keys. How is that not considered a capital gain cell?

1993
01:34:11,792 --> 01:34:25,732
Well, Max responded to that specifically with Lava's solution in which the loan company, the lender, Lava is the intermediary and the lender.

1994
01:34:25,932 --> 01:34:27,452
Neither of them have your private keys.

1995
01:34:27,692 --> 01:34:28,872
They do not control your Bitcoin.

1996
01:34:29,732 --> 01:34:38,372
So I think that solution is pretty airtight in terms of not being any kind of transaction of selling your Bitcoin.

1997
01:34:39,172 --> 01:34:41,592
Other loan companies, I think it's more gray area.

1998
01:34:41,972 --> 01:34:43,492
For example, with Coinbase,

1999
01:34:44,152 --> 01:34:48,832
they turn your Bitcoin into CBDC,

2000
01:34:49,232 --> 01:34:50,692
like they're wrapped Bitcoin.

2001
01:34:51,512 --> 01:34:53,292
And then it goes on to the Morpho chain.

2002
01:34:53,552 --> 01:34:55,572
Who knows how many layers deep it goes?

2003
01:34:56,312 --> 01:34:57,872
Not only are there all kinds of risks

2004
01:34:57,872 --> 01:34:59,272
and scary things about that,

2005
01:34:59,872 --> 01:35:03,992
but none of us are accountants or lawyers.

2006
01:35:04,392 --> 01:35:07,852
So who knows what the IRS treatment of that

2007
01:35:07,852 --> 01:35:13,312
would be today or in the future but it certainly would raise more questions than the the lava

2008
01:35:13,312 --> 01:35:19,772
approach but it's less it's less about the who holds the private keys but it's really if you

2009
01:35:19,772 --> 01:35:24,832
have a custodian that you entrust your bitcoin to who holds your private keys and then they do

2010
01:35:24,832 --> 01:35:29,632
something else with your bitcoin besides just hold it as bitcoin i think that's where the issue comes

2011
01:35:29,632 --> 01:35:36,392
because there's you know long long history of custodians who hold assets and give you

2012
01:35:36,392 --> 01:35:43,932
you know debt you know credit against those assets that let you get cash out that's a very

2013
01:35:43,932 --> 01:35:50,092
well understood area even if the even if the asset is fully transferred to the custodian

2014
01:35:50,092 --> 01:35:52,892
so it's not really about the private keys it's about like what they do with it

2015
01:35:52,892 --> 01:36:00,212
i don't know um so i think if i understand what you're saying dk like if i um own tesla stock

2016
01:36:00,212 --> 01:36:05,472
and the firm I hold that with,

2017
01:36:06,072 --> 01:36:06,372
they might,

2018
01:36:07,412 --> 01:36:08,032
J.B. Morgan,

2019
01:36:08,272 --> 01:36:08,792
people are thinking,

2020
01:36:09,152 --> 01:36:10,492
I'm actually not a J.B. Morgan customer,

2021
01:36:10,672 --> 01:36:12,072
but I've played one on the show.

2022
01:36:13,752 --> 01:36:15,832
So I hold it with J.B. Morgan, let's say,

2023
01:36:16,632 --> 01:36:19,852
and they then re-hypothecate it

2024
01:36:19,852 --> 01:36:24,392
and will supply it to short sellers,

2025
01:36:24,392 --> 01:36:26,152
et cetera, and profit off of that.

2026
01:36:26,152 --> 01:36:29,552
I think that's sort of what you're

2027
01:36:29,552 --> 01:36:31,492
referring to and that doesn't like cause

2028
01:36:31,492 --> 01:36:33,472
me some tax event or something

2029
01:36:33,472 --> 01:36:35,412
but that's different

2030
01:36:35,412 --> 01:36:37,512
in that whereas

2031
01:36:37,512 --> 01:36:39,472
with it's different than the

2032
01:36:39,472 --> 01:36:40,972
case with Coinbase and Bitcoin

2033
01:36:40,972 --> 01:36:43,292
loans because I get

2034
01:36:43,292 --> 01:36:45,372
I have one asset called Bitcoin and I give it

2035
01:36:45,372 --> 01:36:47,232
to Coinbase then they actually

2036
01:36:47,232 --> 01:36:49,072
trade my Bitcoin

2037
01:36:49,072 --> 01:36:50,932
for another asset

2038
01:36:50,932 --> 01:36:52,792
wrapped Bitcoin

2039
01:36:52,792 --> 01:36:55,392
totally different asset like the Tesla stock

2040
01:36:55,392 --> 01:37:02,632
is not traded to a different, like, you know, Rivian stock or something, right?

2041
01:37:03,052 --> 01:37:03,572
Is that true?

2042
01:37:04,252 --> 01:37:04,972
Do we know that?

2043
01:37:05,212 --> 01:37:09,072
I'm pretty sure JP Morgan does not trade Tesla stock for Rivian stock.

2044
01:37:09,392 --> 01:37:10,552
Well, but could they?

2045
01:37:10,552 --> 01:37:12,452
Not as an investment decision, right?

2046
01:37:13,192 --> 01:37:16,732
No, but if they're just like, I don't know, all day doing some kind of like short-term,

2047
01:37:16,812 --> 01:37:17,972
high-frequency, I don't know if they are.

2048
01:37:18,052 --> 01:37:22,172
I mean, I think it is a good point you're making that even when you have a traditional

2049
01:37:22,172 --> 01:37:28,132
custodian holding traditional kind of non-crypto assets that they sometimes do other things with

2050
01:37:28,132 --> 01:37:35,012
those assets and and so far the history is like you know the tax treatment on that is that it's

2051
01:37:35,012 --> 01:37:42,352
not a taxable event and my guess is a lot of that comes down to the fact that jp morgan owes you the

2052
01:37:42,352 --> 01:37:47,352
tesla stock back because they they did whatever they felt like with it but as far as you're

2053
01:37:47,352 --> 01:37:53,012
concerned, they showed it on your ledger in your account as Tesla stock, even if the Tesla stock

2054
01:37:53,012 --> 01:37:58,232
got sold and rehypothecated 10 times over, right? I think the honest answer to all of this is that

2055
01:37:58,232 --> 01:38:03,212
all of these questions, whenever you're dealing with banking or tax laws, it's all extremely

2056
01:38:03,212 --> 01:38:09,672
arbitrary. And frankly, I would say all part of the P&HL scam in which we have lived for a long

2057
01:38:09,672 --> 01:38:15,212
time. Tremendous amount of trust, yeah. Tremendous amount of trust. Like, hey, I have a dollar with

2058
01:38:15,212 --> 01:38:17,292
JP Morgan, where all of a sudden did they get $10

2059
01:38:17,292 --> 01:38:18,472
to go and gamble with?

2060
01:38:19,272 --> 01:38:21,172
I don't know. And so I think

2061
01:38:21,172 --> 01:38:23,152
increasingly, I'm glad that we're giving

2062
01:38:23,152 --> 01:38:25,212
this superpower to hack the system

2063
01:38:25,212 --> 01:38:26,912
to everyone now, but

2064
01:38:26,912 --> 01:38:29,252
I look forward to a day where

2065
01:38:29,252 --> 01:38:31,452
these silly P and Shell games are no longer.

2066
01:38:32,392 --> 01:38:32,932
That's my day.

2067
01:38:34,252 --> 01:38:34,832
All right.

2068
01:38:35,692 --> 01:38:37,472
All right. I think we got to call it.

2069
01:38:37,832 --> 01:38:39,032
We got to call it. We're over time.

2070
01:38:40,232 --> 01:38:41,112
Great chat, guys.

2071
01:38:41,492 --> 01:38:42,732
Good to see you guys again.

2072
01:38:42,992 --> 01:38:44,672
Good bitching at you guys. Bye-bye.

2073
01:38:45,212 --> 01:38:48,372
I'll bit chat you on the interwebs.

2074
01:38:49,032 --> 01:38:50,292
We'll bit you at you too, DK,

2075
01:38:50,432 --> 01:38:51,012
even though you're not here.

2076
01:38:52,212 --> 01:38:56,632
Just favorite me so I can be part of your club.

2077
01:38:57,072 --> 01:38:57,312
Sweet.

2078
01:38:57,672 --> 01:38:57,892
All right.

2079
01:38:57,912 --> 01:38:58,452
Bye, everyone.

2080
01:38:58,672 --> 01:38:58,832
Yeah.