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Bitcoin solves the problem of how to communicate truth, trust, value and meaning across time

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spacing culture, verifiably and without coercion or intermediaries.

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Bitcoin allows for consensus without rulers and re-architecting trust and inviting a future

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That's river.com forward slash WBD.

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Troy, thank you for coming back on the show.

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I'm slightly embarrassed it's taken me this long to get you on the new show,

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but thank you for coming on.

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And Ella, welcome.

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Awesome. First time on What Bitcoin Did. I see you at all the conferences there with your mom in the

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front row taking notes, being a good Bitcoiner. But do you want to start with a bit of an

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introduction? Tell everyone who you are. Yes, thank you, Danny. My name is Ella Huff. I am

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the co-founder of the Bitcoin Students Network, which works with Gen Z all around the world. Now

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we're up to about 70 countries on just becoming more active in the Bitcoin space. And I'm also

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a junior fellow at the Cornell Brooks Tech Policy Institute, where we are doing the first

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large-scale global Bitcoin adoption study. And I recently graduated from Cornell,

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where I got to study Bitcoin officially, and was very grateful to have Troy on my committee.

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Very cool. And so we're going to get into all the adoption work, because Troy,

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with the Nakamoto Project, you've just done another report. But before we do that,

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Can we talk about your senior thesis?

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Explain to everyone what it was, because this sounds really interesting.

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Thank you.

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Yes.

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So my thesis was titled Bitcoin, the language for discovering, speaking, settling and preserving truth.

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And I wrote this for the Robert S. Harrison College Scholar major program.

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And so it's an independent major program where you apply with a question that you can't study in any other established major on campus.

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And as a part of that, you get to choose all of your courses.

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And for your senior thesis, you get to choose your committee of advisors who are on it and the topic.

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And you just kind of have a year to go for it.

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And in May, you defend it.

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And then you get to choose the title that appears on your transcript for what you studied. And so for me, I submitted Bitcoin and it was approved. So now that is on my transcript. And I should preface that I'm not great at writing concisely. And this turned into a about 350 page thesis.

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Yes, that actually two months ago to the day that we're recording, I turned into the library and I haven't quite figured out the best package to share it out with everyone, but I will eventually.

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But I argue that Bitcoin solves the problem of how to communicate truth, trust, value and meaning across time, space and culture verifiably and without coercion or intermediaries.

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And I would, there's a lot kind of packed into all this, but I think if someone only remembers one thing that I were to say about my thesis, it would be that languages can be really impactful frameworks, vessels, kind of protocols on the dynamics of how our world works and how we perceive our world.

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especially I discovered when there is an economic component to it. And so I, you know, argue Bitcoin

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as maybe the first or better language than others. Troy really helped me with this nuance of what I

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was claiming throughout my thesis at being a language for discovering truth, speaking truth,

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settling truth, preserving truth, and kind of the best or better protocol we have for navigating

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the unknown and what lies in the future. And so I, throughout it, try really hard to not take

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anything for granted. There are a lot of tables and charts kind of helping guide the reader along

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and how I was thinking and how I was reaching conclusions. And it's certainly not the final

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word on any of this, but perhaps just the beginning of a discussion of Bitcoin as a language.

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Amazing. So we're not going to be able to get into the entire 350 pages of this today. But what do you mean when you say Bitcoin as a language, like help people understand what you're trying to say there?

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Yeah, because it's, you know, full transparency for me. I think it's the product of like six years of work, but I perhaps embarrassingly wrote it in about two months as I saw all the pieces come together and really try to provide some essence and deep thought into what do I mean when Bitcoin is a language.

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And so I structured it in five epochs, all with different blocks. And so the second epoch was kind of the first third of the thesis statement. And I describe how Bitcoin is structurally and functionally.

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So I actually go into the definitions of what is money, what is language, and try to define Bitcoin in those frameworks and show how it's the first performative meaning action, not just kind of static and non-extractive language.

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And so often in translation, when let's say you're going from Mandarin or English, you lose value, you lose meaning in that. So Bitcoin's the first language that's non-extractive.

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that every human, no matter where you're from, can speak and that embodies five different types

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of capital that I go into and ultimately allows you to instantly and verifiably and 100% error

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free and a trustless manner, established truth. So that's kind of the first third.

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But then after you get away from- That's 100 pages, Dani.

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after you get away from some of that then I get into okay what does this do for our world how does

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this shift power structures and so where this came from and this is why I give Troy a lot of

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credit for how this shaped or helped me think about it it's because I thought oh this is kind

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of crazy not so right but Troy encouraged me to dive in and keep thinking and keep pursuing

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Often we hear about Bitcoin as the separation of money and state.

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And I'm sure many people are familiar with kind of the number symbolism of the separation of church and state with Martin Luther and the publication of the White Paper on October 31st.

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But when I was reading, I discovered that often there is a real tie between linguistic and economic dominance and how there's this tension that comes up with the want to be present and vocal in the global world, but having to sacrifice your culture and your identity.

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And so this kind of next part talks about how Bitcoin allows for consensus without rulers and re-architecting trust and inviting a future where power structures as they've been could start to shift.

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Actually, just before we get on to the final part, I want to ask you a question about that.

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So you're arguing in this that English-speaking countries retain economic dominance because they're English-speaking?

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So a little bit different.

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So I'm saying economic dominance often sustains linguistic dominance.

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And so Nigeria has more than 500 languages, but English is the official language.

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And if you look at the education of all of the world leaders today, the majority have

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come from or been educated in an English speaking institution.

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And so I am saying how, okay, if you all of a sudden maybe have a world where this economic dominance is neutral, anyone can partake in it, it's not controlled by rulers, then is there a world where we can really see a revival of culture and freedom and human flourishing in that sense?

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Amazing.

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I need to read the full 350 pages of this.

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I'll send it to you.

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But again, I try to not take things for granted. And so I actually go into some network theory and, you know, cognitive influences on adoption and there's game theory. And so I try to take a lot of what I've learned in classes and use that or just some of those frameworks. So it's not just me thinking or overly biasing where it goes.

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Have you thought about turning this into a book?

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Yes.

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I have.

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You need to do it.

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Yeah.

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I look at it and there's holes that I see in it, but I need to figure out how to properly

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package it.

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If I can say just a few words about Ella's thesis.

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Please do.

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First of all, I've already gotten too much credit here today.

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I was just an outside advisor who just threw cold water on some things early on.

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But Ella's done a tremendous amount of work here.

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My biggest takeaway was, oh, my God, Ella is a workhorse.

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I just couldn't believe I was watching her Twitter and seeing her like travel schedule and everything.

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And I also knew what she had done and what she had yet to do.

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And the pages just kept keep cranking out at an extraordinary rate.

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I know Ella has a job already and already a bright future in Bitcoin.

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But my takeaway was like, oh, my God, she's an amazing, has an amazing work ethic.

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And I wanted to know how she manages her time and is able to get so much stuff done.

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That was my number one takeaway.

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No, going back to the thesis, I think it's really noteworthy for its originality.

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There's original thoughts throughout this thesis that are 100 percent Ella's.

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She's read like the entire Bitcoin corpus from the Bitcoin side.

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And this is a bit of the problem in how to package it. Could she publish the book? Yes, she could publish the thesis pretty much as is. And it would be an absolute bestseller on the Bitcoin side of things. It's full of bangers. It's like full of bangers throughout the whole book. Interesting thoughts. Well, well put.

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But in terms of like aiming at an academic audience that's outside, those people are going to want something more focused and in-depth.

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And just like the thesis itself, I mean, the major, it's hard to know where to put it.

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It's really the kind of thesis that only could have been written in the format that she wrote it because it draws on so many different disciplines.

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and so another thing she could do with it is take the best chunks out of it and go deeper into the

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relevant academic literature and do that i mean could do both could could uh yeah condense it a

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little bit take the greatest hits for bitcoiners and write a popular book and it would you know it

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would sell very well and and then could pick one or two of the philosophical or academic ideas and

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go deep with them uh i mean i think i think uh one of the things that the thesis got me thinking about

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was that a language could have an orientation towards truth.

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You know, Bitcoin is a, it's many things,

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but Ella makes the case at length that it is a language

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in more than just the sense that it's a simple system

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or it allows for the transmission of information.

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But it's a language in that it's performative

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and that it's involved with our lives in ways that languages are.

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But most languages are, I mean, all languages are neutral

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with respect to what is true.

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You can say falsehoods as well as you can say truths. Bitcoin, for a select set of propositions that you can express in that language, doesn't allow you to speak falsehoods because the map is the territory, as Gigi would put it.

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When the map is the territory, the map can't lie about the territory. And if the territory is transactions in Bitcoin and the history of transactions, then it can't lie. And there are other ways that Bitcoin is connected to the truth beyond that sort of most obvious way.

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You know, the Bitcoin record tells you truths about thermodynamics, like how much energy has been expended in the pursuit of in the pursuit of blocks.

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It tells you in the kind of Jeff Booth sense, the Bitcoin standard tells you truths about supply and demand in the prices that are priced in Bitcoin.

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Because it can't lie in the way that fiat can lie by shifting supply.

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So there are kind of multiple dimensions along which Bitcoin is truth-related as a technology and as a language.

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And that's really interesting that a language could be oriented towards truth, even for some subset of things.

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Not at all obvious and a really interesting point.

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I think this sounds absolutely fascinating.

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Ella, will you send me a copy of this?

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And I think we should do a full show on just this thesis.

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But we are here to talk about adoption today.

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Um, so Troy, you've obviously just dropped a, the latest report from the Nakamoto Institute,

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uh, not Nakamoto Institute, what's it called?

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Nakamoto Project.

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Nakamoto Project.

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Unfortunately, just almost exactly the same label as Nakamoto Institute.

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And Ella, you're working on something at Cornell.

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So why don't we start with you, Troy?

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Do you want to start with the slides and we'll work through some of the stuff?

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Let me share here.

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Maybe Danny, while Troy's pulling them up, I just want to give a shout out to my other

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two thesis advisors, Sarah Kreps, who I'm working on the study with. And then my third advisor is

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Kaushik Basu, who is the former chief economic advisor to India. So I was so grateful to have

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him on board. That's very cool. Thanks to both of them too.

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So Troy, why don't you start with explaining the first survey you did and kind of what the idea

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behind this project is? Yeah. First of all, last year we did the largest at that time,

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comprehensive survey of Bitcoin adoption and attitudes in the US. We surveyed 3,538 people

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with a professional survey company to get a representative sample. And I think I talked

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about this with you and Peter in one of your last shows recorded. And the big upshot was

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that Bitcoin owners look pretty much just like Americans, except they're younger and they're male.

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and politically at that time they were neither left nor right but just matched the broader

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population pretty much exactly that was the most surprising part in the original one is that it was

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it yeah it was in fact it may have even skewed to like the far left in some in some areas yeah we

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what we had last year was it looked pretty much like america except the the high the single group

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that was most likely to own Bitcoin

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was very liberal on the left-right spectrum.

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And that's not to say most Bitcoiners are very liberal.

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That's to say among the very liberal people who are there,

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a higher percentage of them own Bitcoin

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than a percentage of moderates or whatever.

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The very far right was also overrepresented

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relative to the population.

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So we had just like slightly higher tips on the curve,

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but mostly it looked just like the curve

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And it didn't go left or right overall when he just looked at the average as it was dead center. That was our big surprising result. Nobody really believed us. Or as you say, very few people believed us. Nobody believed us on Noster, where everybody told me like, no, you're using the wrong scale because it's left right. And it's not libertarian authoritarian, like for the political compass.

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But we did ask a question about libertarianism. And 5% of our sample of Bitcoin owners said they were libertarian. And that was a much higher percentage than the libertarians in the population. But it still only represents 1 in 20 people who hold Bitcoin.

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So this year we ran the survey again.

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We ran it with the same exact number of participants,

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not that we were aiming for that exact number,

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we got the exact same number of participants.

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We used the same polling company.

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We ensured that none of the participants were the same.

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So we weren getting the same person from last year at all all new people And it took us about a month actually the whole month of March to collect this data because you know we giving people a small monetary reward for taking the sample

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And the first kind of people to sign up for these things tend to be elderly. You know,

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they're not employed. They're not high income, high education. They're just like looking for

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ways to make a little bit of money. So we very quickly filled up our senior citizens, and then

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we had to work really hard to get young people college educated in that kind of range. So we did

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a lot of work to gather a representative sample, and of course no sample is perfect. We're really

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proud of this one geographically, in terms of gender distribution, ethnic composition, educational

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attainment, income, and other markers we tried as hard as we could to match the U.S. census.

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something to bear in mind so i think we did talk about this last time you're on the show but the

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big question i have here which you kind of touched on then is how do you make sure you get the right

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people in the study because if you're offering i don't know what you offer these people in terms of

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a monetary incentive to actually fill out this survey but i assume it's harder to get people

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earning like 100k plus a year than it is to get low-income people it is it is it took us like the

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entire month of March to gather this sample. We didn't do it ourselves. Some people who

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questioned our results said that we got our sample from Coinbase or we got our sample from

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the Bitcoin Magazine subscribers. And those are the sorts of critiques we got.

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We also got a lot of people saying, if I were to ask 50 people at Walmart or 50 people at Home

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Depot whether they own Bitcoin, I guarantee you I would get a different result from you guys.

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And yeah, that's because representative sampling is hard.

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This is why we hired a professional company to do it.

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Yeah, we give a monetary reward for taking the sample.

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But also in order to qualify to the sample, you have to fit certain demographic criteria.

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And we filled up on the unemployed older people right away.

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And we had to work hard to get our younger part of our sample.

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And that's increasingly an issue for online surveys.

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I mean, I don't like filling out online surveys myself.

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We also did attention checks throughout the process of the survey.

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So if people weren't really paying attention, but just filling things in, we toss the results.

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So these are people who at least paid attention enough to pass through the checks.

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And in fact, the survey data matched very closely a lot of things from last year and what we expected across different questions.

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So we think it's a really good sample. We're very proud of the sample itself.

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And then the other question on that, which is, when you say this is a Bitcoin sample,

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how do you make sure they know what Bitcoin actually is and they're not talking about crypto?

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We actually did it twice in the report itself. We started off by saying this is a survey about

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Bitcoin ownership and not any other kind of cryptocurrency like Ether or Solana or Ripple

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or whatever. And then later on, when we ask a specific question about, do you own Bitcoin?

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We also said, bearing in mind that the survey is not about any other kind of cryptocurrency other

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than Bitcoin. Do you own Bitcoin? Because we were sensitive that last year, even though we had that

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disclaimer at the beginning of the survey last year, we were sensitive that they had kind of

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forgotten it by the time they got to this, do you own Bitcoin questions? We still think some of them

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might have forgotten it or still might not recognize it. It's Andy, my co-author, Andy

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00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:30,280
Perkins was saying Bitcoin is the Kleenex of cryptocurrencies. The name for the brand has

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become the name for the segment. And that makes Griff, that makes affinity scamming very easy.

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You know, the Kleenex executives are probably really pissed off when people buy puffs and say,

250
00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:48,800
yes, I got some Kleenex when you had Kleenex on the to buy list, right? And the same goes for

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Kodak or Xerox or any of these other kind of market leaders. It's the blessing and the curse

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of being the segment leader that people just associate you with the whole segment. In some

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ways, that's brand dominance, but in other ways, it sucks. But we did our very best to kind of

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pare that down. And it might explain the difference between our numbers and some numbers that are even

255
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282
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Okay, cool. So let's get into it. So what's changed since last time you did this?

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00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:28,040
Okay, good. Well, first of all, yeah, we introduced a new method of,

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a new way of testing for Bitcoin ownership, because we also got a critique last year. Last

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year, we found one in seven or 13% of people said they owned Bitcoin. And we just asked that simple

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question, do you own Bitcoin? And we got a lot of people saying, well, maybe more own it than that,

287
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but they own it in ways that they're not going to say yes to that question. Like their spouse owns

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it and they own everything jointly with their spouse, but they're not going to answer yet.

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Yes, or maybe they have it through an ETF. So this time we asked an open-ended question,

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do you own Bitcoin? And then we'd say on exchanges, in self-custody, in an ETF,

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jointly with a partner, through a business investment, and click all that apply or check

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all that apply. And then we also had an option that said none of these ways. And so there we

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found 18.6% ownership of Bitcoin, which is between one in five and one in six, which is 48 million

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Americans. I looked up a Pew research study on Catholics in America, and there's supposedly 50

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million Catholics. They're probably also counting kids. So roughly Bitcoin owners equals Catholics

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in terms of population in the US.

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Yeah, that is formidable political constituency.

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That's very interesting.

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And when you, like, I can obviously see this here

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on the ownership, exchanges dominating

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by quite a long way, which is probably not surprising.

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Self-custody, relatively high, 23%.

303
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The ETF thing's interesting,

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because that's obviously, I don't even know

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if that was around when you did the last report.

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It was around, but just barely.

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But that's already at 20%.

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ETF share is almost equal to self-custody.

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Probably next year, it'll be in the second position behind exchanges.

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Was there anything in here that surprised you?

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Yeah.

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Self-custody, you mentioned it's 22% of Bitcoin owners, that roughly one in five owners holds

313
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in self-custody.

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but what's really shocking is that's 4.1 percent of the whole population or 11 million american

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adults and this one uh honestly made me question our data because i thought it just couldn't be

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true i thought it was just too high and i was like oh no like does this doom the whole survey

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and i looked up um i looked up hardware wallet sales uh ledger sold 8 million wallets uh

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Cumulatively, globally, Trezor has sold 2 million.

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You know, those dominate the numbers for hardware wallets.

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So if every one of those wallets was still in use and all belonged to exactly one American each,

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then, you know, that would accommodate our 11 million, roughly.

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But we know that's not the case.

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And, you know, probably it's more like 1 million out of that 11 million that holds on a hardware wallet.

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So other possibilities, you know, maybe people just don't understand what self-custody means. We tried to explain it in the question. But another possibility is that they hold them on mobile wallets where you write down your keys. And we looked at downloads of popular mobile wallets and Trust Wallet is 200 million downloads.

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And it's also a garbage wallet. So if anyone's listening and uses it, do not use it.

326
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it's a garbage early wallet that came out of the Binance ecosystem.

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But Binance is huge in everything, and it's in first place by a lot.

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So my theory on this is that the 4.21% self-custody number represents the blessing of crypto.

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Because I think a lot of people downloaded these wallets because it's a lot easier and cheaper.

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it's free cheaper than buying a hardware wallet and they probably a lot of people bought these

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wallets in order to hold their nfts and play games on defi yield farm and that sort of thing in the

332
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last cycle and then you know as all that stuff crashes they move into bitcoin or maybe wrapped

333
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bitcoin because it's the safest and best um crypto asset so i think a lot of people are doing self

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custody because they came in through the crypto route and it's less just less of a big hurdle to

335
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have a mobile wallet like that but yeah that's a huge constituency 11 million people who do this

336
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thing that elizabeth warren and others have characterized as shadowy super code or behavior

337
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,340
like no that's a lot of that's a lot of americans right now the roman storm trial is going on

338
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you know the the issues the three bills that are before congress and debating about whether to be

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bundled, whether to provide developers immunity from charges that have to do with how their

340
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software is used.

341
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Like, who cares about those issues?

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I think this 11 million, they're a serious, passionate constituency of the electorate.

343
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Totally.

344
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It would be interesting.

345
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I don't know if you could do this.

346
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Maybe people wouldn't want to share this data, but it would be interesting if you could kind

347
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of weight that by how much Bitcoin they actually own and see how that changed the scale.

348
00:31:56,140 --> 00:32:01,420
Absolutely. And I think this is a big kind of flaw in our study overall is that what we're

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talking about is whether you own Bitcoin, not how much you own. And a lot of our results that

350
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shock people, I think, is that people's opinions are weighted by the whales that they know.

351
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and um you know i don't know how much money is on the typical cash app wallet but my guess is it's

352
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not a lot so you might have 20 on your cash app and you might have 10 in bitcoin and you're going

353
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to show up as a yes in this survey i would imagine if if you did weight it by how much bitcoin they

354
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were going to own it'd be really interesting to see what went i assume self-custody would be higher

355
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you'd hope so um but maybe things like the etf would also be much higher um ella does this i i

356
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know your survey you did was on a global scale but does this data match up with what you're seeing

357
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yeah it tracks very closely um and i can show you if that's helpful to charts if we want to

358
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switch over but um troy we have similar numbers on self-custody it's about like 14 15 million

359
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americans um similarly on ownership we got 49 um million americans very close so they're really

360
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close to what you found wow that is that's i mean that must be a a bit of a blessing to see that

361
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the data is actually pretty similar because otherwise i don't know who would be wrong

362
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:27,200
but so ella let's let's go through your slides after we'll keep going through troy's first so

363
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should we move on to the next one i'll march us along i'll march us along take your time on uh on

364
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gender and age, we found the same thing as last year. Bitcoin is a young male phenomenon.

365
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And like I said last year, if we want to cross the chasm of adoption, eventually,

366
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women need to use Bitcoin as well as men. And also, you know, we need to get the old zin on it

367
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eventually at some point. Do you know what, just quickly before we move on from that,

368
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the interesting thing there is if I compare that to the audience on the podcast,

369
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it's actually quite different um good so when i was in austin i was me and marty were both judges

370
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on this um on the pleb lab builder day thing and we were talking about this because one of the um

371
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,660
projects that was being pitched was a sort of mobile game app that was trying to get younger

372
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people into bitcoin and we were both saying that like our podcast numbers aren't it's not young

373
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people like the gen z is a very very small percentage of who listens to this podcast

374
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and maybe that's to do with it being long form and like to stereotype gen z they have a short

375
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:38,780
attention span but um my podcast audience gets older not younger which i think is quite interesting

376
00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:45,520
and maybe conflicts with this data a little bit well um i i think you're i think that's right

377
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:51,460
and even last year are under 25 you'll notice a slight drop off from 26 to 30

378
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and 31 to 35, those are the highest.

379
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Under 25, it drops off a bit.

380
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,200
If you look on the female side last year,

381
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the drop off at under 25 was a little more dramatic.

382
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And these are smaller samples

383
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within these like five year range.

384
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So my confidence intervals are much wider.

385
00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:12,940
I think 18 to 25 is an area we need to work on.

386
00:35:13,340 --> 00:35:13,400
Yeah.

387
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,240
I think it's an area we need to work on.

388
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:17,120
Also, I just talked to my students about it

389
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,480
and none of them are interested in Bitcoin.

390
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:26,220
They might be interested in some kind of shitcoin technology or nothing, but they view it as

391
00:35:26,220 --> 00:35:29,520
something where the train already left the station by the time they came along.

392
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,660
And, you know, they sort of see it as boomer coin.

393
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,640
And so I think we need to work on that demographic.

394
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,180
It's key moving forward.

395
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:38,560
Well, hey, we got Ella here.

396
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I know.

397
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:39,660
Yeah.

398
00:35:39,740 --> 00:35:40,920
I don't know why I was old.

399
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,380
I don't know why I'm even talking here.

400
00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:44,880
But I do think there's an interesting thing there.

401
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,980
Like when I found Bitcoin, I was in my mid 20s.

402
00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:51,020
But Bitcoin was, I mean, I had very little money, but Bitcoin was a lot cheaper then.

403
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,500
And so it made more sense.

404
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,880
But if you're in your like early mid 20s now and you're looking at Bitcoin at 120K, like

405
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,860
that seems like a something that's maybe out of reach.

406
00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:01,420
But Ella, you should probably talk on this.

407
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,120
What do Gen Z think of Bitcoin?

408
00:36:04,260 --> 00:36:07,580
I think it's mixed and I think it's really mixed around the world.

409
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,900
I mean, in especially because this study, it's global.

410
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:18,160
Like there's only three countries where it's really high outliers on the older age ranges.

411
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:21,740
And that is, I believe, Kenya, Nigeria, and El Salvador.

412
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,940
All of the other countries, it's not like that when you get to the older age ranges.

413
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:35,340
And I think I have had success introducing the concept of stats and satoshis to younger,

414
00:36:35,340 --> 00:36:41,740
you know gen z just the same way we have cents and a dollar you know showing how it is achievable

415
00:36:41,740 --> 00:36:48,000
and there are still ways for you to you know get into this space and i'll just say really quickly

416
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:54,540
i think a key conversation that's often not had in colleges in just discussions when you're growing

417
00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:59,800
up and thinking about the future is really you know what are we even all here for what are we

418
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:06,980
trying to accomplish. For me, Bitcoin resonated because essentially from age 13, when I was

419
00:37:06,980 --> 00:37:10,300
thinking about my future, how am I going to take care of myself? What am I going to do?

420
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,340
I essentially had to plan for when I was going to die, not to be dramatic.

421
00:37:15,860 --> 00:37:17,640
You were thinking about this at 13 hours?

422
00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:24,900
Yes. And then when I found Bitcoin, it was literally like the flip of a light switch. Oh,

423
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:32,180
now there is this tool that I can use to help me plan for life and what gives me joy and meaning.

424
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,560
And I think that's a message that's also not really translated or told to younger people about

425
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,280
what is Bitcoin going to do for your life and what impact can it have?

426
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,940
That's, I mean, I was definitely not thinking about these huge existential questions when I

427
00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:52,540
was 13. I was thinking about football. But it is interesting because like on the older side,

428
00:37:52,540 --> 00:37:59,860
I imagine that I can see how that grows with the kind of financialization, monetization of Bitcoin, all these like ETF products.

429
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,260
I can see how that grows.

430
00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:04,280
I think the younger side is actually going to be harder to grow going forward.

431
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:06,420
I agree, Danny.

432
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,300
And I think what Ella said is so, so beautiful and appealing.

433
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,520
Our kids don't have a lot of things that make them hopeful.

434
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,940
They don't have a lot of they don't see a future for themselves.

435
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:28,160
and um what they've been told about bitcoin definitely doesn't help them see a future uh

436
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:35,560
from from the media or from you know the the elites that are guiding them uh in education

437
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:42,780
they've been told that bitcoin is like other extractive technologies like um it's going to

438
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:48,460
it's going to take from the poor and give to the rich it's going to destroy the environment that

439
00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:53,940
they live in, and it's going to inhibit the ability of government to operate and work.

440
00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,860
So they don't really see it as hope. And that's where we have a massive educational task in front

441
00:39:00,860 --> 00:39:05,800
of us. Yeah, totally. Because you can flip all of those narratives on the head. And that is why

442
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:12,840
Bitcoin is hope. Absolutely. And it's hope for a much simpler reason that the number is still going

443
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:26,680
up and has a long way to go And you don have to have one Bitcoin The unit bias thing is extreme You know we make fun of it in Bitcoin but I don buy Berkshire Hathaway stock by the fraction you know because it just such an

444
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:32,580
expensive stock. I don't own Berkshire Hathaway. And there's no rational reason for me not to buy

445
00:39:32,580 --> 00:39:39,000
a fraction of a share. You can do that. But I still look at it like it's some kind of luxury

446
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,740
thing and that ship kind of sailed and it would have been nice to be, you know, Buffett's friend

447
00:39:43,740 --> 00:39:53,080
30 years ago. But I think for like, like, like Ella said, sats is is good. I've heard other

448
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:59,300
proposals, you know, making bits the standard and just like listing the price of Bitcoin with bits.

449
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,280
I know there's an effort in the industry to do that. I think something like that might be really

450
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:09,780
helpful for for Gen Z. Actually, I like bits and sats. I think they can both work. What I don't

451
00:40:09,780 --> 00:40:16,280
Mike is calling sats Bitcoin. Yeah, I agree. It's just too confusing.

452
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,720
Something that in Brent Buchanan's study, signal study, I presented with this guy in DC,

453
00:40:23,460 --> 00:40:29,000
they did 800 people, likely voters. They had a like, why don't you own Bitcoin question?

454
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:35,020
And I consulted with them before they offered up the alternatives there. And I was like, well,

455
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,760
one of the alternatives should be, I don't have enough money. I don't have the funds to do it.

456
00:40:39,780 --> 00:41:06,980
And sure enough, like that was one of the highest ranking answers, right? People just, I don't have enough money to do it. And I think it was like 25% or 30% of people who don't have Bitcoin just said, that's the reason. And yeah, if you have, um, if it's a dollar a Bitcoin or 10 cents a Bitcoin on the way to a dollar, uh, sorry, a, a bit, uh, then maybe that's a little, I always thought just like the exchanges just list another coin called the Satoshi.

457
00:41:06,980 --> 00:41:11,640
and it actually is just Bitcoin, but it's denominated Satoshi's, right? And it's like,

458
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:15,480
look at this Satoshi coin. It's tracking Bitcoin precisely. It's the hottest new thing,

459
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,480
but it's actually, they're just buying Bitcoin. They also, you know what I mean? They can exchange

460
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,440
it for Bitcoin and it's just actually just an internal calculation within the exchange.

461
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:31,740
I like that. All right, let's move on from age. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Race and this data

462
00:41:31,740 --> 00:41:36,840
different from what we found last year. Last year, we found slightly more likely to own Bitcoin

463
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,220
if you're non-white.

464
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,100
This year we found Hispanic-Latino ownership

465
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:43,480
was considerably higher.

466
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,740
And so was Pacific Islander, Native American, Black, and Asian.

467
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:51,980
I don't really count the Pacific Islander, Native American numbers too much

468
00:41:51,980 --> 00:41:55,920
because that represents very few people who own Bitcoin in our sample

469
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,120
and the error bars on those are huge.

470
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,840
But I'm confident in the Hispanic-Latino one and the Black one

471
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,480
as both considerably higher than white.

472
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:22,600
And this matches other surveys in crypto. It also matches something we saw in the election last year, where Donald Trump gained significantly among young Hispanic men and even young black men from before. Yeah. And it matches, I think. Yeah, it matches other data from the industry.

473
00:42:23,260 --> 00:42:25,940
So tell me why you think that it skews that way.

474
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:32,260
Because like my gut reaction, I actually think is a total mid curve take is that maybe like,

475
00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:40,080
especially when you look at the Hispanic Latino population, like, does this come down to maybe at some point they've used it for omissances and then understood what Bitcoin is?

476
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:42,520
Or like, what do you think the reason for this is?

477
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,700
I think it's different reasons for the black population and the Hispanic Latino population.

478
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:50,580
But both related to financial privilege.

479
00:42:50,580 --> 00:43:09,440
I think the friends of mine who are from Latin America or have relatives there have a much easier time grokking the value of Bitcoin because they say, oh, yeah, I know when the Argentinian peso exploded or I had a family in Venezuela and they lost everything.

480
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:15,700
Or, you know, they all know that or they've done a remittance with with black Americans.

481
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:20,080
it's a history of distrust with banking. You know, something else that we showed in the signal

482
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,040
poll really went into this is looking at trust of traditional financial institutions and correlating

483
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,720
that with ownership of Bitcoin. And it's just as you would expect, the less you trust financial

484
00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:36,860
institutions, the more likely you are to own Bitcoin. So black people trust financial institutions

485
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:43,480
in America less. And that's because a history of redlining, a history of discriminatory treatment

486
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:49,300
on lending and, you know, dramatic things like Black Wall Street in Tulsa.

487
00:43:49,940 --> 00:43:52,300
So that memory doesn't fade.

488
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:59,660
And I saw in the signal poll, if you say that you're a politician and you say you're supporting

489
00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:05,600
Bitcoin, 50% of Black Americans say that makes them more likely to vote for you.

490
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:11,580
They were the single highest group in terms of expressing political support for politicians

491
00:44:11,580 --> 00:44:17,480
who say they back Bitcoin. And I think it's this entire history of mistrust.

492
00:44:18,140 --> 00:44:19,640
All right, cool. Let's go on to the next one.

493
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:27,100
Okay. Political orientation and Bitcoin ownership. This year's results are very similar to last

494
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:33,540
year's in the sense that Bitcoin owners look kind of like the rest of America. But on the

495
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:39,520
sort of liberal and somewhat liberal, the numbers have dropped slightly and the numbers have jumped

496
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,740
slightly on the somewhat conservative and conservative side. Basically, we've had a pivot

497
00:44:44,740 --> 00:44:51,160
around the middle, left to right. And we measured political orientation in four different ways. This

498
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:56,780
is just one of them. The other ones showed at least this much shift, if not more. So we're

499
00:44:56,780 --> 00:45:01,620
pretty confident there was a rightward shift among Bitcoin owners. Which makes total sense with Trump

500
00:45:01,620 --> 00:45:06,060
and everything that's happened there. Which makes sense. And here's sentiment. It's just kind of the

501
00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:10,860
same theme, except now it's not whether you own Bitcoin, but what you think of Bitcoin,

502
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:17,480
whether you think it's good. You can see in the gray is 2024 data and orange is 2025.

503
00:45:18,220 --> 00:45:23,480
Basically, on the left side of the political spectrum, we had a pretty big drop in sentiment

504
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:29,500
towards Bitcoin. And on the right, it holds steady. It's interesting, though, that sentiment

505
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:34,880
has dropped pretty much across the board while ownership's gone up. Yeah. Well, whether or not

506
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:40,400
ownership has gone up is actually we don't take a stand on that because we changed our question.

507
00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:46,940
So we can't actually say whether ownership went up. What we can say is that when we ask the very

508
00:45:46,940 --> 00:45:53,640
same question again, which we did, we this time had a new qualifier in front of it, but we got

509
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:58,760
a statistically indistinguishable answer. Where we get the increase from is from asking this

510
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,960
question about how many do you own it in one of the following six ways.

511
00:46:04,020 --> 00:46:07,080
And so we don't know what the answer to that would have been last year.

512
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:07,780
I see.

513
00:46:08,020 --> 00:46:12,220
I don't think that ownership is really up or we don't have any evidence that it's up.

514
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,400
And so the interesting is price is up.

515
00:46:15,540 --> 00:46:19,280
In March, the average price of Bitcoin over that month was something like 84,000.

516
00:46:20,620 --> 00:46:25,880
And when we gathered our data before the period over which we gathered, it was around 40,000.

517
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:47,700
So price of Bitcoin doubled between our two surveys. Also, ETFs exploded, becoming the best selling ETF in history, most rapid growth in history. We have the explosion of Treasury Company's micro strategy, ballistic. We, of course, Donald Trump won the election, announced a strategic Bitcoin reserve in an executive order.

518
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:56,680
basically and then Operation Chokepoint 2.0 wound down. I mean, I can't even recount all of the wins.

519
00:46:57,060 --> 00:47:04,480
It was it's been an insane year of winning. And what's interesting is that all of that winning

520
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:10,920
did not translate into necessarily broader ownership or sentiment. Sentiment went down

521
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,780
slightly, but it went down a lot on the left and among women. And so I think that's kind of a I

522
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:20,780
think that's kind of a red flag for us. And you might, it might be different now. This was March.

523
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:31,260
Sentiment is not tracking price and it represents basically the shift of Bitcoin from a popular

524
00:47:31,260 --> 00:47:38,040
movement to an institutional and government asset. And some of that energy and momentum

525
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:44,740
of previous bull cycles is not yet here. Maybe retail comes along now and it explodes,

526
00:47:44,740 --> 00:47:49,260
but they weren't there in March. I do wonder though, if there's another dynamic there. So

527
00:47:49,260 --> 00:47:54,640
like, I agree that this probably shows that Bitcoin is moving from like a grassroots movement

528
00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:01,080
to institutional movement, but does it, it could also be Bitcoin price ripping and salty no coiners

529
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:09,720
getting pissed off at it? Of course. I mean, in another respect, like if we didn't have 2024 data

530
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:11,060
and we were just looking at this,

531
00:48:11,420 --> 00:48:14,560
you see a center-right orientation of Bitcoin owners,

532
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,720
mostly center, and then a little bit right of the country.

533
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,640
And then you look at sentiment,

534
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,300
and you see across the political spectrum,

535
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,220
it's slightly below neutral,

536
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,700
but not a whole lot of difference between left and right.

537
00:48:30,460 --> 00:48:32,980
And I would have said, wow, Bitcoin isn't political.

538
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:33,840
That would be my headline.

539
00:48:34,660 --> 00:48:36,860
It's only because I have last year's data

540
00:48:36,860 --> 00:48:39,360
that I see the trend is actually negative.

541
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:53,620
And I do think a lot of it is like, yeah, price is going up, but if you're not in, which 80% of the country is not in, then you're like, sons of bitches. They're getting rich and I'm not.

542
00:48:54,040 --> 00:49:02,380
Yeah, I think maybe sentiment's going to drop for a lot of these studies you do, as Bitcoin just goes to a million dollars. All right, let's keep it moving. What's the next one?

543
00:49:02,380 --> 00:49:07,960
Let's keep going. Basically, we found this last year, we found it again. Whether you trust Bitcoin,

544
00:49:08,180 --> 00:49:14,240
know about Bitcoin, think it's useful, or think it's good, highly correlates with owning Bitcoin.

545
00:49:14,420 --> 00:49:18,900
And those things all correlate with each other. And if you look at politics, it's gray and light

546
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:23,720
gray in this chart. You can see these attitudes towards Bitcoin are slightly different among left

547
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:29,280
and right. And then if you look at owners versus non-owners, which is orange versus gray, you see

548
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:34,000
a massive difference. I mean, a truly huge difference. And this wipes out everything like

549
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:41,120
age, gender, race, even combinations of age, gender, and race are still not as powerful a

550
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:47,020
predictor as just knowing about Bitcoin. And that's our real headline. I think that comes down to,

551
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:50,480
like, if you own Bitcoin, you probably understand what it is, so you have a better take on...

552
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:56,380
Like, that one makes total sense to me. Yeah. I won't rehash the moral foundations

553
00:49:56,380 --> 00:50:01,440
profile in debt. Not changed a lot. But it hasn't changed at all. What we found last year,

554
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,240
we do have a new name for it. We're calling it moral maximalism,

555
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:13,060
where people who are Bitcoin owners tend to care about matters of purity, loyalty,

556
00:50:13,340 --> 00:50:20,220
proportionality, equality, just a lot and more than the average person. But they don't match

557
00:50:20,220 --> 00:50:24,440
the profiles of either liberals or conservatives. They have their own distinctive profile.

558
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,280
Bitcoiners are good people.

559
00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:36,540
Bitcoiners, that's not what I want to say, because I keep getting called on that in the comments. It doesn't mean Bitcoiners are good. It means that they care more.

560
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,760
They're just better than everyone else.

561
00:50:38,020 --> 00:50:43,540
They care more about certain issues or they express that care. It doesn't mean they actually follow through on it.

562
00:50:43,540 --> 00:50:49,560
finally uh attitudes towards a strategic crypto reserve or strategic bitcoin reserve

563
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:55,440
if you just ask people the question straight up should we start this new thing called a strategic

564
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:02,300
crypto reserve and start buying crypto with your tax dollars they mostly are neutral to negative on

565
00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:08,640
it however we also asked people another question which was the government is considering the u.s

566
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:15,400
government is considering diversifying some of its $800 billion of gold into Bitcoin. If you were

567
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:23,600
advising the government, how much gold would you advise them to convert to Bitcoin? And we gave

568
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:29,860
them a slider going from zero to 100. The slider was initially set on 50, but if you didn't touch

569
00:51:29,860 --> 00:51:34,500
the slider, your vote was not counted. That was a couple hundred people. So you had to grab this

570
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:40,240
slider and put it on the number you wanted. And what we found was that 80% of people put that

571
00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:46,860
number somewhere other than zero, with a median result of 10% and a mean result of 20%.

572
00:51:48,140 --> 00:51:55,660
So, and especially we found even like young people, young people much more likely to convert

573
00:51:55,660 --> 00:52:03,380
larger amounts of gold to Bitcoin than older people. But even among old people, we found

574
00:52:03,380 --> 00:52:06,940
like actually the gender thing was slightly reversed.

575
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:09,760
Like women in general were very reluctant

576
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,680
to go onto zero Bitcoin.

577
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,540
And in particularly older women were off zero

578
00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:16,920
where old men, a lot of old men

579
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:18,180
were just like straight on zero.

580
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:21,060
And we think it's kind of like a risk tolerance

581
00:52:21,060 --> 00:52:23,640
or a risk thing flipped

582
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,300
because it seems risky to be all in gold

583
00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:28,040
and not even 1% in Bitcoin.

584
00:52:28,620 --> 00:52:29,380
Ah, that's interesting.

585
00:52:29,980 --> 00:52:31,800
Yeah, so you had these like really confident

586
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:38,260
Peter Schiff type older males were like zero. But women who in general are less risk tolerant

587
00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:46,460
were more friendly to us getting off zero in terms of Bitcoin. So our conclusion on this one

588
00:52:46,460 --> 00:52:50,800
was like, this issue is really tricky and very sensitive to how we frame the question.

589
00:52:51,340 --> 00:52:55,680
If you say like, would you like to be a part of this newfangled thing where we stack Bitcoin

590
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:02,500
instead of gold, people are going to balk. But if we say, should we be entirely exposed with $800

591
00:53:02,500 --> 00:53:07,780
billion worth of gold and no Bitcoin, or should we get a little Bitcoin, then people want us to

592
00:53:07,780 --> 00:53:13,220
get off zero. Very interesting. And it also, compared to the first chart you showed there,

593
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,520
I understand why people, especially people who don't own Bitcoin, would be reluctant to spend

594
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:23,640
tax dollars on it. But this one makes loads more sense. Exactly. It's just diversifying holdings

595
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:31,600
we already have we're massively overexposed to gold among uh assets yeah cool oh is that all the

596
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:38,360
charts that's it okay perfect so so tell me like what's your takeaway from this troy compared to

597
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:44,280
last year like what do you think is good what's bad what would you like to see change i mean uh

598
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,640
i would i kept looking for the one-liner and this is what held me up the most writing the report i

599
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:54,780
wanted like that one banger that was like the result and i don't think there is one i think it's

600
00:53:54,780 --> 00:54:02,540
that uh bitcoin you know is here to stay it has a very large constituency in the u.s you know 48

601
00:54:02,540 --> 00:54:09,620
million adults is uh not it's not going away and it's it's a force to be reckoned with politically

602
00:54:09,620 --> 00:54:17,500
um i i think even the self-custody number was really amazing and encouraging i think about the

603
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:25,080
percentage of Bitcoiners that we talk to and know. You know, how many people are at a conference?

604
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:33,340
How many people were in Vegas? Like 30,000? And that was a huge conference, right? 30,000 out of

605
00:54:33,340 --> 00:54:40,120
48 million is nothing. That's nothing. And that's not a random sample. That's people who can afford

606
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,900
a ticket, who want to go to the conference and so on. If we think about the number of people on

607
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:53,840
Bitcoin Twitter who are active on Bitcoin Twitter. I don't know what it is. At the most, it's 150,000,

608
00:54:53,840 --> 00:55:00,800
200,000 out of 48 million. I think surveys like this are really interesting because they

609
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:06,400
get us to see the people we're not seeing. And we kind of realize that all of our opinions about

610
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:13,380
what Bitcoin is politically or socially, we are all basing ours on the basis of a very skewed and

611
00:55:13,380 --> 00:55:19,080
very small sample. Yeah, it's really easy to think Bitcoin Twitter is Bitcoin. But there's a lot of

612
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,700
people out there who will just own this thing and not think about it all day, every day. And I find

613
00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:29,840
that hard to understand. They own it. I do too. They own it. They own a small amount. They don't

614
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:36,800
think they know that much about it. They don't fully understand it. They're busy with life.

615
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:43,220
Don't have strong opinions about it. Don't want to talk about it. And they're the ones showing up

616
00:55:43,220 --> 00:55:48,280
in the survey. I think that the other thing that this data shows us is it's kind of a warning.

617
00:55:48,940 --> 00:55:56,880
It's like that dip in sentiment. I like your salt theory, Danny, but I think it's up to us

618
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:02,920
to carry the message of Bitcoin forward to individuals, like through efforts like Ella's,

619
00:56:03,260 --> 00:56:06,160
through like what the Nakamoto Project is doing, Bitcoin Policy Institute,

620
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,440
what Bitcoin did.

621
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:09,760
This culture

622
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:14,800
still hasn't found its place

623
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:15,980
in the mainstream media.

624
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:18,240
People are still not telling our stories

625
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:19,340
the way we want to tell them.

626
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:21,420
They're still telling them in negative ways.

627
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,920
And that's showing up in the sentiment.

628
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:26,840
And the same with a Donald Trump

629
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,980
marriage of orange brands,

630
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,060
the orange brand of Trump,

631
00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:32,280
the orange brand of Bitcoin.

632
00:56:33,380 --> 00:56:34,620
That's very powerful

633
00:56:34,620 --> 00:56:36,640
and we are seeing the effects of that.

634
00:56:37,180 --> 00:56:38,600
And we want Bitcoin to be,

635
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,220
or I want Bitcoin to be anyway,

636
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:41,820
a universal technology.

637
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:43,220
If we understand that,

638
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:45,240
we see it's not left or right.

639
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:47,660
It's money for enemies

640
00:56:47,660 --> 00:56:49,880
and it's money for everyone.

641
00:56:50,780 --> 00:56:55,440
And so it's on us to carry that message forward

642
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:56,980
and communicate it out to people.

643
00:56:56,980 --> 00:56:59,860
So, yeah, I see us like winning

644
00:56:59,860 --> 00:57:00,940
on all sorts of fronts,

645
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,120
but I see these little trends

646
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:04,140
that I'm concerned about

647
00:57:04,140 --> 00:57:08,180
and that we're tracking, you know, and that we can take action on.

648
00:57:09,020 --> 00:57:10,920
How funny that there's people out there who own Bitcoin

649
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,260
who are just like touching grass and living their lives.

650
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:14,020
What weirdos.

651
00:57:15,420 --> 00:57:19,940
Ella, so Troy's survey was obviously based solely in the US,

652
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,200
but you've done this on a global scale with Cornell.

653
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,640
Do you want to run through some of your slides and we'll see what's different?

654
00:57:25,380 --> 00:57:27,520
Yes, I will. I'll pull them up right now.

655
00:57:28,020 --> 00:57:29,440
I think that report's fascinating, Troy.

656
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:30,980
Thanks, Danny.

657
00:57:31,380 --> 00:57:32,080
When's the next one?

658
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:33,780
You said you were going to do these every quarter.

659
00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:39,520
is that still the plan we're definitely not going to do that okay i i basically i didn't pay myself

660
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:46,280
anything for for for these so i i'm i'm i'm just doing them on my free time and that's not a lot

661
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:52,120
and uh and we have to raise money for each one and so i mean i think annually is a much better

662
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:58,800
seems more achievable for us yes all right ella you've been out in the cold for a minute there

663
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:05,660
let's get into it yes so it's nice that most of our results uh that i'll share align very closely

664
00:58:05,660 --> 00:58:12,040
with what troy has just shared with their study um just a quick note of when our study was done

665
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:21,480
so there's 2108 americans who were surveyed and it was done um in mid-december 2024 so there is a

666
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:27,800
nice time chunk between troy when your uh survey was done most recently and when we did our numbers

667
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:39,060
And we looked at 25 countries across all different regions, status of development, type of government.

668
00:58:39,060 --> 00:58:45,620
And when we started this, we looked at 178 different countries.

669
00:58:45,620 --> 00:58:47,600
And I can't take credit for this work.

670
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:53,280
Three professors, Professor Sarah Kreps and two others, then scored all of those countries

671
00:58:53,280 --> 00:59:05,340
across about 15 different factors ranging from inflation remittances civil war civil unrest to then get to our 25 countries that we have today

672
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,200
And one piece that isn't going to show up in the data that we'll run through is that

673
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:16,300
in addition to these about 25,000 surveys, a little more, across these countries, we're

674
00:59:16,300 --> 00:59:24,760
also doing about 10 interviews for 250 total across all of the countries to help provide

675
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:31,040
more nuance or stories that might otherwise be lost when we just have the data.

676
00:59:31,620 --> 00:59:32,440
Oh, that's very cool.

677
00:59:33,140 --> 00:59:40,040
Yeah, so it's really nice. And what's also nice about it is that we have about 15 students from

678
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:45,840
the Cornell Bitcoin Club who are actually doing the interviews and getting to talk to people

679
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:52,180
all around the world about how they're using Bitcoin or why they're not using Bitcoin and

680
00:59:52,180 --> 00:59:57,040
learning from that very interesting so just quickly like with these countries that you've

681
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:03,160
picked um have you tried like so obviously the uk the us is in this but the uk is not is that is

682
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,020
the thinking behind that that while different they're relatively similar and you want to make

683
01:00:07,020 --> 01:00:13,040
sure you hit lots of different audiences yeah and so that it comes up uh like even canada for

684
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:20,600
instance isn't in this um but the us is and so it really comes back to just that scoring of all of

685
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:25,140
the countries across the different factors. And then it was just basically ranked. And I think

686
01:00:25,140 --> 01:00:31,140
there was some tweaking and editing. But yes, in short, we wanted to try to be as representative

687
01:00:31,140 --> 01:00:36,220
as possible. And while it's a little different for Europe, we still have a decent number of

688
01:00:36,220 --> 01:00:41,020
countries. There's Italy, Poland, and then Switzerland, and then Russia and Ukraine,

689
01:00:41,020 --> 01:00:44,600
we added in as well. Makes sense. Okay, cool.

690
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:45,500
Yes.

691
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:49,000
It's a phenomenal data collection effort, Ella.

692
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:49,880
Thank you.

693
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:56,600
I mean, amazing. And also the qualitative part really does is valuable. And I can see that

694
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:01,840
because so many people ask us why people are giving the answers they're giving. And I always

695
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:07,480
have to just say, I don't know. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's, it's sort of a blessing and a curse

696
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,220
because, um, professor Krebs and I have talked about this a lot recently. We have so much data

697
01:01:12,220 --> 01:01:16,840
and we have these interviews and the stories, but we want to be careful as well that we're not

698
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:24,040
telling the wrong story or, you know, overbiasing on one thing versus another. But I'll show in one

699
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:30,180
of these charts an example of where I think the interviews have come into helpful with that. But

700
01:01:30,180 --> 01:01:37,820
maybe just to dive in, this is a chart just showing Bitcoin awareness. So the question was,

701
01:01:37,820 --> 01:01:45,900
are you aware of Bitcoin? Yes or no? Then a question about knowledge. You self-rated on a

702
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:50,860
scale of one to 10, how knowledgeable you are about Bitcoin. And then the final piece that's

703
01:01:50,860 --> 01:01:57,220
shown on here, which just for the sake of this chart, I titled understanding. But the question

704
01:01:57,220 --> 01:02:02,780
was basically about, do you know that there's only 21 million Bitcoin, that a supply cap exists?

705
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:12,880
And I'll zoom in right now just to the US, but only about 5% of Americans know that Bitcoin has

706
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:19,200
a supply cap of 21 billion bitcoin which is really low and so i know we were just speaking about

707
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:24,420
um you know if you're aware versus if you own bitcoin i'm going to show that number two

708
01:02:24,420 --> 01:02:31,120
um you know we thought that owners of bitcoin might be more knowledgeable about bitcoin or

709
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:37,520
really understand what they're owning um but as i mentioned our numbers showed that 49 million

710
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:47,300
Americans own Bitcoin currently, but only 17 of that about know that there's even 21 million.

711
01:02:47,820 --> 01:02:54,360
And we're actually doing over the next 10 weeks, different data releases. And so tomorrow,

712
01:02:54,360 --> 01:03:00,140
we're going to release more context on, you know, do they think there's any supply cap? Do they think

713
01:03:00,140 --> 01:03:05,800
it's something else? And it's really shocking. So 128 million Americans who say they feel

714
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:07,720
knowledgeable about Bitcoin are probably lying.

715
01:03:08,860 --> 01:03:09,020
Yeah.

716
01:03:09,820 --> 01:03:13,780
And, you know, I think there's that joke, like no one who understands the difficulty

717
01:03:13,780 --> 01:03:17,880
adjustment thinks Bitcoin's a bad idea or doesn't want to own it.

718
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:22,600
And I feel we can lower the thresholds a little bit more and just say, do you know

719
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:23,580
there's 21 million?

720
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:26,020
There's a couple of things I want to interject here.

721
01:03:26,020 --> 01:03:33,340
One is that we tested financial literacy through a series of questions, like, you

722
01:03:33,340 --> 01:03:39,540
know, test questions, but not Bitcoin literacy. So I'm really glad you did that because we just

723
01:03:39,540 --> 01:03:45,760
went with basically subjective opinion on how much you take yourself to know about Bitcoin.

724
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:51,740
Yeah, that's great. Because I think we would get a similar, I know a lot about finance would

725
01:03:51,740 --> 01:03:56,600
probably be a lot of people, but then when you actually ask them questions, they would fail these

726
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:02,440
basic questions. We owe a lot of credit to, you know, Troy having your study out before we sent

727
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:08,720
out the surveys, you know, other people revert the 1A1Z group. Like there's a lot of good work

728
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,180
that people have done that we've been able to look at and leverage for how we drafted this.

729
01:04:13,980 --> 01:04:17,480
Totally. This chart makes total sense to me, though, because like whenever I'm talking to

730
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:22,180
people, if they ask what I do and I tell them I'm into Bitcoin, no one really says what's that.

731
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,320
But I feel like very, very few people understand it. This just shows how much work we've still got

732
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:31,280
to do. Yeah. One other thing we did was when we asked about the trust, whether you trust Bitcoin,

733
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:44,160
We had four questions. One of them was like, do you trust it as an investment over time to hold value? And another one was, do you trust the truth of the Bitcoin record of what exchanges have taken place?

734
01:04:44,160 --> 01:05:05,740
Yeah. And those responses were almost identical in our survey. That's like wildly different. Nobody should distrust on the second one. And the other one is controversial, but they just tracked exactly like people don't know yet, Ella, the point of your thesis that Bitcoin's a language aimed at truth. They don't know that basic point either.

735
01:05:05,740 --> 01:05:25,640
Yeah. And just a quick aside. So we also asked these questions for general financial knowledge. Actually, there was a couple of questions under that. And then we did the same for crypto awareness, knowledge, and then stable coins as well. And so that's just other data that's out there that we can share.

736
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:39,940
But moving on to ownership. And so this chart here is showing current Bitcoin ownership across the 25 countries, as well as have you ever owned Bitcoin across the 25 countries?

737
01:05:39,940 --> 01:05:49,460
And the reason I wanted to make sure to include both of them here is that for China and Hong Kong, we could not ask, do you currently own Bitcoin?

738
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:54,600
And so that's why it's zero here in this chart.

739
01:05:54,740 --> 01:06:01,840
But I think it's helpful context to just show where the numbers are under the have you ever owned Bitcoin question.

740
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:11,840
and so if you look at this the U.S. is over here kind of in the latter right half of Bitcoin

741
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:17,400
ownership which again is just interesting putting it in context of other studies the River report I

742
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:23,120
was mentioning that showed you know just how much or how dominant Americans are in the Bitcoin

743
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:30,720
ecosystem or at least how it appears and zooming in again currently about 49 million Americans own

744
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:36,680
Bitcoin. But over the course ever, the number is about 95 million Americans.

745
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:41,480
That's really interesting. The El Salvador one on the previous charts, interesting too,

746
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:46,340
at one point is over like 75% of people had owned Bitcoin and now it's below 30.

747
01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:53,380
Yeah, yeah. Ben, I think obviously we know some impacts onto why that is. And so that's again,

748
01:06:53,540 --> 01:06:59,160
you know, to why the interviews are helpful. And on that note, if it's in, we can certainly go back,

749
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:05,360
but we also asked about custody and trust. And I'm just going to go out of order for the sake of

750
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:10,440
this. But in terms of trust in Bitcoin, so I think, Troy, you mentioned that your number,

751
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:18,560
was it about 4.9 or somewhere, I think, close to that of trust or how Americans rated their trust

752
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:27,120
in Bitcoin? And in our study, it came up at 3.43 right next to South Korea. And a couple of the

753
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:34,080
interviews in South Korea, people were saying how they really distrusted Bitcoin, crypto,

754
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:41,280
Web3 because of Do Kwon and Terra Luna and that crash. And so I sort of wonder,

755
01:07:41,620 --> 01:07:46,080
and we actually haven't done the US interviews yet, but I wonder if we're going to get,

756
01:07:46,180 --> 01:07:51,800
you know, FTX, SPF coming up in those. And if that's, you know, any reason for this.

757
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,500
I'm sure they will come up. The interesting thing on this chart, so this is trust in Bitcoin for

758
01:07:55,500 --> 01:08:00,720
anyone listening um and we have japan with the lowest trust nigeria with the highest trust but

759
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:07,060
you can almost go down this list and be like how bad is your fiat currency and the worst the current

760
01:08:07,060 --> 01:08:11,360
the fiat currency is the better the trust in bitcoin is with a few exceptions though like

761
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:16,900
it's interesting to see the uae with such high trust in bitcoin yes and just while we're talking

762
01:08:16,900 --> 01:08:22,460
that and you know how bad is your currency for the question of you know do you correctly know

763
01:08:22,460 --> 01:08:29,020
there's only 21 million Bitcoin. Switzerland was the highest with 25 point something of that nature.

764
01:08:29,700 --> 01:08:33,120
And they have a relatively good currency compared to others.

765
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:37,100
Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, they do no money.

766
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:43,620
And they've been such early adopters in terms of Bitcoin, crypto and regulations especially. So

767
01:08:43,620 --> 01:08:48,860
maybe that's why. And this just gets into the blessing and curse of having so much information

768
01:08:48,860 --> 01:08:53,360
in the interviews and can we do our best job in telling the story accurately?

769
01:08:54,380 --> 01:08:57,480
And then the final piece that I wanted to share was custody.

770
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:03,860
And so this chart, it's maybe a little daunting when you first glance at it, but the piece

771
01:09:03,860 --> 01:09:08,180
that I think is interesting to focus on is the red, and that's for people that say they

772
01:09:08,180 --> 01:09:10,540
hold Bitcoin in a hardware wallet.

773
01:09:10,700 --> 01:09:13,300
So self-custody, but with a physical hardware wallet.

774
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,640
And again, we don't have this data for Hong Kong or China.

775
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:26,500
but mexico is the highest and then the u.s is a bit in the middle um zooming in though for the u.s

776
01:09:26,500 --> 01:09:33,620
uh troy similar to you higher than 11 million but about 15 million americans use a hardware wallet

777
01:09:33,620 --> 01:09:42,640
damn which that's wild yeah yeah so there's question on you know of course uh you know

778
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,780
Troy, you brought up looking at the numbers of sales, but I think it's reassuring to know that

779
01:09:46,780 --> 01:09:52,700
these studies done pretty close in time together have reasonably close numbers as well.

780
01:09:53,180 --> 01:09:58,660
I just wonder what people mean by hardware wallet. You know, this is the impossible thing

781
01:09:58,660 --> 01:10:03,800
about surveys, right? You'd never know if the way you intend the question to be interpreted is the

782
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:12,360
way they're taking it. I think 14.8 million Americans using a hardware wallet, given the

783
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:18,000
ledger has only sold 8 million cumulatively and trezor 2 million and maybe the rest is a million

784
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:28,380
or two that would require that basically all of those wallets in the world are um in america and

785
01:10:28,380 --> 01:10:35,340
the one user per wallet and and both of those seem seem suspect and i wonder i mean i'm my first

786
01:10:35,340 --> 01:10:44,020
wallet was just my computer because I had the wallet.dat file on Bitcoin.

787
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:45,460
You're an OG here though, Troy.

788
01:10:45,940 --> 01:10:52,740
So, you know, like, was that a hardware wallet? It's hardware. I don't know. I think so. But

789
01:10:52,740 --> 01:11:00,140
the term hardware wallet didn't even exist back then. I don't know. If I didn't know what a ledger

790
01:11:00,140 --> 01:11:03,620
or Trezor was, how would I interpret that question?

791
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:07,280
Like maybe I've got it on my phone and I'm like, yeah, phone's hardware.

792
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:08,220
It's a wallet.

793
01:11:08,420 --> 01:11:09,380
It's on my phone, right?

794
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:11,960
Anyway, I think it's a great number.

795
01:11:12,340 --> 01:11:13,300
It's an awesome number.

796
01:11:13,540 --> 01:11:15,300
I really wonder what people mean.

797
01:11:16,340 --> 01:11:20,260
Same exact question about our own characterization of self-custody.

798
01:11:20,260 --> 01:11:20,900
Yeah.

799
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:27,820
And I will say part of this other bucket, we asked self-custody digital wallet.

800
01:11:27,820 --> 01:11:35,180
and so we at least have that distinction as well but i just lumped that into other because there's

801
01:11:35,180 --> 01:11:41,740
uh just for right now how we'll present it um wanted to highlight the numbers for etf exchange

802
01:11:41,740 --> 01:11:47,360
and hardware wallet but at least we did ask you know is it hardware or is it your mobile wallet

803
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:52,440
or digital well that's really interesting and can you just go back to that previous chart ella

804
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:59,300
yes um which one because uh the custody one this one yeah because this this is like what we were

805
01:11:59,300 --> 01:12:04,360
talking about before when it's very easy to think that bitcoin twitter is bitcoin uh the thing that

806
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:10,200
surprises me in here is just how dominant mexico is like the vastly more people using a hardware

807
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:15,660
wallet in mexico than anywhere else poland kenya sw i mean switzerland they love a swiss bank

808
01:12:15,660 --> 01:12:20,080
um but like these aren't the countries i would expect to be at the top of that which is very

809
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:24,280
interesting. No. And you know, what's also interesting is that I'm going a little bit

810
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:31,480
off recollection, but I believe Mexico in terms of awareness is very low. Yes. Okay. So if you

811
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:39,720
look over here, Mexico is in last in terms of understanding of the 21 million supply cap. And

812
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:46,240
then this is not ordered, but I believe they're the bottom three in terms of awareness of Bitcoin.

813
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:51,680
super interesting so you're either unaware of it or you have it in a hardware wallet

814
01:12:51,680 --> 01:13:01,180
it's like the divide in the society yeah it's really cool um it's very useful very useful to

815
01:13:01,180 --> 01:13:06,740
to know that you know what i what i said to a lot of my critics online was like look i i don't know

816
01:13:06,740 --> 01:13:10,860
exactly what people meant by self-custody they took themselves to have bitcoin in self-custody

817
01:13:10,860 --> 01:13:16,580
OK, I didn't make up the data. It's 11 million Americans who said I have it in self-custody.

818
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:21,220
Yours are even higher. So that's a that's a political constituency.

819
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:28,940
Even if, you know, if you're a ledger and you're looking at it and you're wondering how many hardware wallets you've sold or can sell, you might not be able to trust it as much.

820
01:13:28,940 --> 01:13:40,840
But if you're a politician saying we're going to treat people who have hardware wallets like their banks and make them collect information on all the transactions that, you know, then, you know, you've got a real constituency.

821
01:13:40,860 --> 01:13:43,960
and it doesn't really matter if people don't quite understand it.

822
01:13:44,540 --> 01:13:49,120
I was going to add, we asked, you know, in the most recent election, because this was done after

823
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:56,640
the election, did you vote for Harris or Trump? And I believe it was 47% said they voted for Harris

824
01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:04,680
and 50% for Trump and 3% for other. And so it's pretty even split. Yeah, pretty even split.

825
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:11,720
very that is interesting um you know when it comes down to bitcoin is actually holding bitcoin

826
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:16,620
in self-custody is there a way that you could use like on-chain data to substantiate the claims

827
01:14:16,620 --> 01:14:24,600
you're making here we we had that uh criticism lobbed at us by uh some people online and i think

828
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:30,920
uh yeah you can criticize our numbers here because you could just look at the number of wallets

829
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:34,780
that hold non-dust levels of Bitcoin.

830
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,520
And I don't know where you draw that threshold exactly,

831
01:14:38,260 --> 01:14:43,380
but the 11 million looks like it's a considerable percentage

832
01:14:43,380 --> 01:14:46,740
of all the wallets at the non-dust level already.

833
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:49,760
And we know that a lot of wallets are held by exchanges,

834
01:14:50,460 --> 01:14:52,440
ETFs and institutions and businesses.

835
01:14:53,380 --> 01:14:56,220
So, and we know that people have a lot of wallets,

836
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:57,960
like have more than one wallet.

837
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:08,760
So looking at, I think it's tricky looking at on-chain data to try to determine how many people, you know, hold Bitcoin in self-custody.

838
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:12,800
Do people consider lightning self-custody?

839
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,920
Well, there are forms of it that are and forms of it that aren't.

840
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:22,660
But things will show up in different forms that are going to be called self-custody or not.

841
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:24,580
But it's another great data point.

842
01:15:24,580 --> 01:15:34,040
And once I saw that criticism, I was like, that would have been a really nice part of our report, actually, to put the on-chain data there against the self-reported numbers.

843
01:15:34,660 --> 01:15:39,480
Yeah, because, again, it's just down to how people actually interpret the question and their understanding of the question.

844
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:46,320
Yeah. And for ours, what we also asked is what percent of your savings is in Bitcoin as well as other assets.

845
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:50,020
And then we also have when did you first buy Bitcoin?

846
01:15:50,020 --> 01:15:58,280
And so I imagine compared with on-chain, that would also help us, you know, back into that or get closer to the correct data.

847
01:15:59,300 --> 01:16:01,200
Well, this has been really interesting.

848
01:16:01,340 --> 01:16:11,940
I think, again, like I said, just to reiterate the point, it makes it very clear that what I may sometimes think of as Bitcoin is not actually, or as Bitcoiners, is not actually who Bitcoiners are.

849
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:14,800
It's way broader than I think I probably imagined.

850
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:18,360
I think so.

851
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:23,580
from your takeaway i asked troy the same question like what surprised you in this what was a sort of

852
01:16:23,580 --> 01:16:29,440
standout piece of data you collected i mean i was shocked by how many people aren't aware of 21

853
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:36,480
million because i just for myself i just feel like it was the main point that helped me connect

854
01:16:36,480 --> 01:16:46,960
the dots and understand why i why i own bitcoin and to see how few people know that um that was

855
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:53,660
really shocking to me and i think it's also it's so easy to share that and explain it and so again

856
01:16:53,660 --> 01:16:58,700
troy was talking about you know what's our responsibility what can we do um you know that

857
01:16:58,700 --> 01:17:03,880
that's a very easy thing that we can do to help others understand bitcoin we've got a lot of work

858
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:09,200
to do i think i need to do a podcast with parker lewis on 21 million um but i massively appreciate

859
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:14,100
the time the work like it's incredible the two the two surveys are very very interesting thank

860
01:17:14,100 --> 01:17:18,380
you guys so much. Before we close out though, where do you want to send anyone? Ella, you kick

861
01:17:18,380 --> 01:17:26,440
us off. Sure. Well, for myself, speaking of 21 million, my handle is 2121mm for the 21st.

862
01:17:27,020 --> 01:17:32,620
But then for all things for the study, we are open sourcing all the data, everything as it comes

863
01:17:32,620 --> 01:17:40,500
out just on cornellbitcoinclub.org or the Twitter handle. And so over the next 10 weeks, we're going

864
01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:45,200
to share data. So if people want to stay up to date to that, then I would recommend checking there.

865
01:17:46,740 --> 01:17:55,220
And Troy, I'm at the TroCro, T-H-E-T-R-O-C-R-O, Twitter. And you can also follow the

866
01:17:55,220 --> 01:18:01,020
Nakamoto Project at nakamotoproject.org. Amazing. Well, thank you both so much the time. Really

867
01:18:01,020 --> 01:18:07,120
appreciate it, guys. And Ella, I do want to do a podcast with you on your thesis. We'll do that

868
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,120
at some point. Please send it to me and I'll read it and we can do that. I will. Thank you so much

869
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:15,140
for having me. All right, cool. Thank you, Danny. I'm so honored to be on Ella's first

870
01:18:15,140 --> 01:18:20,480
What Bitcoin Did appearance, which I can hardly believe. There you go. And there's going to be

871
01:18:20,480 --> 01:18:23,440
more for sure. Thanks, guys. Thanks. Thank you.

872
01:18:40,120 --> 01:19:10,100
Thank you.