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The Kraken is now putting its arms over the system that we've been building for 15 years now.

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And yeah, we're starting to feel the consequences of that.

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You need to be able to express yourself.

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You know, we have understood that privacy is necessary for a democracy to function.

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Otherwise, you're just a tool.

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You're not a free human being.

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The general population will only start to understand things once it starts to hurt.

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We rely on a small number of large corporations that have a lot of control over our lives.

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They have accumulated so much power, it becomes trivial to control those companies politically

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and then affect billions of people at this point.

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We're not trying to do anything bad.

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We're literally just trying to improve the world.

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As long as we just keep moving into the right direction, I think we'll, I hope we'll be okay.

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Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and in every bull market there's always a new wave of investors

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and with it a flood of new companies, new products and new promises.

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But if you've been around long enough you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them.

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Some cut corners, take risks with your money or just disappear.

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That's why when it comes to buying Bitcoin the only exchange I recommend is River.

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They deeply care about doing things right for their clients and are built to last with security and transparency at their core.

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With River you have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin is held in multi-sig cold storage

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and it's the only Bitcoin-only exchange in the US with proof of reserves.

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There really is no better place to buy Bitcoin,

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so to open an account today, head over to river.com forward slash WBD

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and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy.

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That's river.com forward slash WBD.

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What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

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Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can.

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Of course, none of this is tax advice. Speak with Blockware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD.

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All right, Kali, man. It's been too long. How are you doing?

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Danny, nice to see you again. I'm great. How are you?

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I'm very good. I've not seen you since you came to Cheat Code, which was like a year and a half ago.

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And you've been a busy man. But one of the things that I wanted to start with is in Bitcoin,

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everyone's constantly saying we are winning. Bitcoin's at all-time highs. There's like

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seemingly good regulation being passed through the US. New treasury company every week. So it's

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like the taking down the traditional markets. But there's a big but in that last week,

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the two samurai devs, Bill and Keone, pled guilty.

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They're facing up to five years in prison.

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From what I've heard, it sounds like they're going to get

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the harsher end of that sentence.

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Roman Storm was found guilty by jury.

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And now the UK has brought in the Online Safety Act.

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And all of this seems like we're not winning.

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So I want to know your take, just like a vibe check.

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What do you think of what's happening right now?

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I think they're catching up to us.

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That's what it feels like.

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So on a financial side, everything is going great, right?

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So the playbook is evolving just the way that people predicted it.

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Price goes up, people FOMO in, institutions are coming, etc., etc.

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That's the most predictable, maybe even like the most boring part of Bitcoin,

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which is still a necessary part for Bitcoin to gain global dominance.

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I understand that.

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On the freedom and privacy front, which is kind of, in my mind, a necessary precondition for the first thing to succeed.

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It seems like we've had quite some room to work on things for now 15 years.

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And the system didn't quite understand what Bitcoin is and what we do with it.

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and now it's closing down and using like old playbook

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like oppression against freedom technologies that have been going on for decades so zooming out

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I think it's just a continuation of a process that has already started if you want in the 80s

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which is to clamp down on the freedom of expression,

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whether that's messaging, calling people, just communication,

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crypto wars 1.0,

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and a continuation of that in the crypto space,

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in the Bitcoin space, which is now exchange of value

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without any intermediaries, without control, without borders,

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any of the old rules that apply in cyberspace.

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And the Kraken is now putting its arms

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over the system that we've been building

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for 15 years now.

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And yeah, we're starting to feel the consequences of that.

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So in the midst of this,

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what do you think the way out for us as Bitcoiners is?

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Is it just to build the tools that we need to use?

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No, I think we need to engage much more

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with the external world.

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So, you know, we need to build the tools and we need to make sure that we build parallel systems that we can use.

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So I think this movement is a constructive movement.

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We're building a parallel system because the old system is not building the tools that we need for the next century.

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And so there's a constructive part.

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but we tend to be a community that talks a lot with itself. You know, we say Bitcoin is winning

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and it's like everyone is repeating the same old sentences. This is good for Bitcoin and Bitcoin is

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for enemies and blah, blah, blah. It's the same things that people just say in circles.

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And I think it's a mechanism to ensure what the boundaries of the community is and what's inside

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and outside, but we are clearly lacking the voices that bridge those gaps and try to communicate

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to the outside world what we're doing here and why we're doing it.

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And so what do you think the key things that we need to change are?

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I think these movements, they live off individuals that represent the links between the inside

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and the outside.

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So there is a groupthink in the crypto and the Bitcoin space that has lasted for a while now, which is like as long as we keep building, then we'll reach freedom.

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But I think we're waking up to the fact that we are still embedded in a larger system.

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So we need to find the voices that can communicate to society in a way that helps people to understand why we're trying to build Bitcoin systems.

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And why we're, you know, this is about human rights, freedom, freedom of expression.

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It is about transcending nations and transcending politics.

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It is about mathematics.

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And, you know, these are complex questions that we are very used to.

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We've been talking about these for years.

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Yeah.

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But talk to a normie.

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And the association that people have with Bitcoin is trading, the value going up, or terrorist financing, tax evasion, all these bad labels that they've put onto Bitcoin.

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Our job is not only to defend Bitcoin in a technological way, but also try to put out

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the narratives that are stronger than the bad ones.

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So, you know, we're in a situation where they determine what Bitcoin is from the outside.

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And what we should be doing is we determine what Bitcoin is from the inside and spread

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this message.

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I want to give an example.

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For example, I think Alex Gladstein has been one of the most influential and important people in shaping the narrative around what Bitcoin is because of his background.

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It comes from human rights perspective.

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You know, he's been working in that field before he's got quite some, you know, people know him from that world.

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Yeah.

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So he has managed to build like an entire narrative, very strong, very good narrative, an ethical narrative around Bitcoin, which is to help the people who need the help the most.

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So whether that's refugees, political dissent, or human rights groups around the world, protest movements that rely on a system like Bitcoin to operate when a cruel, unjust regime tries to crack them down.

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And Alex has done such an amazing job at that.

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Because the message is so powerful and it's also one that you just can't ignore.

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You can't sit there and pretend, you know, all the FUD against Bitcoin, whether it's on mining or whether it's used to finance terrorists or whatever.

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When that comes from the mainstream media, you can't use the same FUD if you're saying this woman in Afghanistan is using Bitcoin to fund a school.

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Like, it's just, it's such a powerful narrative.

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He does such a good job.

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When we did Cheat Code last year, the one you weren't able to come to, he had an hour slot where it was all human rights.

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And a guy from the Bedford Independent came and was watching the conference.

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And he wrote an amazing piece afterwards.

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I'll put it in the show notes, but it was basically, it was how Alex Gladstein's hour of presentations,

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all from different people across the HRF's kind of roster, just changes perception on Bitcoin entirely.

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And like, I think you're right, but what I think is a really hard narrative to sell people,

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and I don't know why this is, is the need for privacy.

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I was talking to some friends when I was back in the UK recently,

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and I was talking to them about the Online Safety Act that came in,

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and how this is a terrible precedent to set,

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and no one gets it.

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Why do you think privacy is so hard to sell to people?

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So the story about privacy is a long one

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that has been going on for decades at this point.

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And to really understand how the evolution

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of this narrative in society evolved,

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I think it makes sense to start with,

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you know, what we call the Crypto Wars 1.0 at this point.

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And we call it 1.0 because there is now Crypto Wars 2.0 also going on.

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So Crypto Wars 1.0 is, let's say, in the 80s, even in the late 70s, where intelligence agencies in the U.S., primarily in the U.S., but this spread across the globe, started to fight encryption.

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because they thought that talking without the state's ability,

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communication without the state's ability to intercept

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and to read what you're talking,

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allows criminals to, drug dealers, all this FUD,

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human trafficking, child safety, and we can come to that later,

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All these labels that they put on used to justify the fact that they wanted to put literal hardware into our devices that can listen to the messages that you're writing to someone, even with end-to-end encryption.

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so what has happened since then is and this is a remarkable remarkable change and evolution that i

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think we need to learn from is that decades of work from activists from you know people fighting

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this fight had shifted the narrative around the need for encryption for communication quite

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considerably. So while encryption was only for criminals in the 80s, sometime in the 90s and in

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the 2000s, the story started to shift, but very slowly after decades and decades of fighting from

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especially activists, not only like cryptographers, and there are like big cryptographers that have

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that have fought that fight and were, you know, necessary to get to that point.

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but the narrative needed to shift from the criminals needed to you needed to to write a

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love letter to someone you needed to communicate to your family to your friends to you know to

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retain your human dignity you need to be able to express yourself you know we have understood that

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privacy is necessary for a democracy to function because you cannot be a uh an intelligent um

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well, informed citizen, if you're not able to communicate freely with your citizen peers,

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right? To form a political opinion and to be able to cast a vote in democracy requires you to be able

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to get that information freely and to share information freely. Our democracy is literally

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built on the necessity of privacy. In any democratic country today, the ballot is private.

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It needs to be private. Otherwise, you can be pressured to vote for someone specific.

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And after the fact, also that, you know, after voting, that also needs to remain private.

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Otherwise, you can be, you know, you can get a bonus or you can be rewarded for voting for

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this candidate rather than that candidate. By the way, like, I hope everyone remembers what Elon Musk

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did with the American elections last year, which is like terrible way of interfering with a

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democratic process that needs to remain pure because the process itself, the principle around

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it is so much more important than the result of each individual vote. So I think, you know, we,

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The fight is not over.

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Crypto Wars 1.0 is still going on, to be honest.

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But at some point, the DOJ was decided that...

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No, sorry.

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I should say the fight against the DOJ,

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the Supreme Court in the US decided in a case against the DOJ

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that encryption is everyone's right

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and you're allowed to encrypt your communication.

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So it went from being treated the same as munitions

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to being the right of every citizen.

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Correct, yeah.

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The export of cryptography was treated

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like exporting weapons in the United States,

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which is insane if you think about it today.

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And so the crypto wars was won.

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And then narratives started to shift

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and we've seen the EU parliament

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than recommending to their constituents,

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to the parliamentarians, like use Signal,

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because Russia is watching

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and people starting to understand

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that we need to rely on these things.

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And you have things like TOR being funded by US agencies

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because they noticed that this can be a quite useful tool

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for freedom in other countries

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when you have political dissent

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and they want to have secure communication.

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So this is something that they want to push.

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So the fight for privacy in communication has done quite some leaps.

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And at this point, I think most people understand,

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at least have a sense of intuition that the NSA is watching what you're typing here.

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And it's kind of disgusting, the feeling that someone is watching you.

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And I have a friend, I always think about,

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like we were chatting on telegram and he told me like you know i i can't talk freely here let's use

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signal and then we switched over to signal and the the way that communication changes once you

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know that there is no one watching is you become like your normal self yeah it's like it's like

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across this table yeah exactly like one street whoever you are that's how you should be and as i

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like i want to repeat this this is necessary for democracy to work right otherwise you're just a

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tool you're not a free human being we understand that and now decades of work have resulted in this

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00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:24,140
intuition of people feeling that it is you know a disgusting feeling that someone can read what

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you're watching by the way in physical space we have this intuition already we've been in physical

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00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:35,480
space as humans. You know, we've existed for hundreds of thousands or hundreds of thousands

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00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:41,540
of years as Homo sapiens. You know, we have curtains, we do, you know, we whisper and we

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hide our mouth when we talk because people can read your lips, right? We do this intuitively,

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although we don't even understand why it's about reading the lips.

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And you also even have a, almost like a sixth sense where it can make you feel uneasy if you

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think someone's watching you in public.

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And you, like, I don't know what that is,

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but if someone stood in the corner

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and they're looking at you,

234
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sometimes you get that intuition of like,

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you know it and it makes you feel uncomfortable.

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Absolutely.

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There's like, there's loads of psychological research

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on behavioral science.

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Like how do people behave when,

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if there's a camera just pointing towards you

241
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,800
and like how your behavior changes.

242
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,200
And so in physical space, we have the intuition.

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We close the curtain.

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It's not a problem.

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It's a human right to close a curtain.

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We have ballot rooms.

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You cast a vote in this little thing, the chamber.

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In digital space, for communication, for phone calls, for chats,

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we're developing an intuition.

250
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I think we're still at the beginning there, but people are starting to get it.

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Most people still don't.

252
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Now let's come to financial privacy.

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Sending money around, the most basic form of it.

254
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I pay you in cash.

255
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Like you, I don't know, you pay for the dinner, next day I pay you in cash.

256
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We take it for granted.

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We took it for granted that most payment systems, which was physical cash, was perfectly private.

258
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And we never really, you know, got the feeling, got to understand what it feels like at this point.

259
00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,760
We're starting maybe to understand it.

260
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Credit cards and everything came a bit later.

261
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So I think society doesn't get it at all yet.

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when you talk about sending money to your friends even,

263
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and the need to remain private,

264
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then people still associate it with,

265
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:38,200
you know, only criminals would want that.

266
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Or what are you trying to hide?

267
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Or, you know, I have nothing to hide.

268
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It's just a pizza or something like that.

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Right?

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So I think, I hope we will also get to a point

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where we are with messaging in terms of financial privacy.

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and I think we will have to get there

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because people will develop that intuition.

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The same way as when Edward Snowden revealed

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that the NSA is literally watching everything

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that is happening on the internet,

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I think we will also get to the point with money.

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And the reason why we will get there

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is that money is almost as important,

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if not more important than speech.

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In fact, here again, the American Supreme Court has ruled that money is speech.

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And I can make some examples why money is speech.

283
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For example, you have a political belief.

284
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You want to support this political movement.

285
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You donate to them.

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This is expression of speech.

287
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Like, I support this political cause.

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Now, someone could stop you from doing that.

289
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That's financial censorship.

290
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:46,940
Or someone could just observe your bank account from, you know, you're doing that.

291
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And then retroactively after the regime, you know, this current regime has been toppled by the next regime.

292
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They might say like, hmm, actually, we want to persecute everyone who is donated to that to that foundation, to that cause five years ago.

293
00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:07,280
Right. So there are many ways how we express speech or human freedom or personal freedoms through money.

294
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I'll make another example is we're in Riga right now.

295
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It's a Bitcoin conference.

296
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:19,060
you know your credit card statement says you're in Riga and Danny is in Riga right now so they can

297
00:22:19,060 --> 00:22:24,120
see like you're in Riga right now maybe that's not so interesting but maybe they'll see like oh

298
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:28,780
there's a bunch of Bitcoiners now in Riga you know lots of people suddenly appearing in Riga and they

299
00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:35,200
all go to the same place like this cafe shop has like a high influx of international credit cards

300
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,380
now paying at that cafe maybe there is a conference of Bitcoiners there right so there is a social

301
00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:46,820
graph as well associated with money. It shows who your therapist is. You can see like, oh,

302
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:54,100
you're doing psychotherapy at this place. Or who you're going to cinema with. Oh, you paid for four

303
00:22:54,100 --> 00:23:00,940
tickets and there were these people around you. So, so many ways how we leave traces around.

304
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:18,025
And unfortunately I care about these things you care about these things We kind of have an idea of what happening The general population will only start to understand things once it starts to hurt And with money I think like with money it can hurt really really bad

305
00:23:18,305 --> 00:23:20,525
It can hurt more than with messaging, even.

306
00:23:20,845 --> 00:23:24,245
Like when they turn off your bank account, you know, you might lose your home.

307
00:23:24,925 --> 00:23:27,685
And sounds unrealistic to people.

308
00:23:28,125 --> 00:23:30,925
To some, they say like, oh, I will never be affected by this.

309
00:23:31,005 --> 00:23:32,425
But yeah, good luck, right?

310
00:23:32,425 --> 00:23:34,125
You don't know what's going to happen.

311
00:23:34,125 --> 00:23:40,205
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353
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I do think that's almost

354
00:25:52,905 --> 00:25:54,605
the most dangerous narrative though,

355
00:25:54,645 --> 00:25:55,605
is that I'm doing nothing wrong.

356
00:25:55,605 --> 00:25:56,845
so I don't need to worry about privacy.

357
00:25:57,525 --> 00:25:59,425
And I think that's like a very pervasive,

358
00:25:59,505 --> 00:26:00,265
well, yes, yeah,

359
00:26:00,345 --> 00:26:01,925
but I think that's a very pervasive

360
00:26:01,925 --> 00:26:02,965
kind of way of thinking.

361
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:04,805
That is one of the things that we need to change.

362
00:26:04,965 --> 00:26:05,865
But with messaging,

363
00:26:05,965 --> 00:26:06,945
before we get onto the sort of

364
00:26:06,945 --> 00:26:08,285
financial privacy side of things,

365
00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:10,245
have we not just taken a huge step back

366
00:26:10,245 --> 00:26:11,585
with this Online Safety Act?

367
00:26:11,665 --> 00:26:12,825
I mean, I know this in the UK,

368
00:26:13,025 --> 00:26:15,665
but I assume this is going to spread to more countries.

369
00:26:16,165 --> 00:26:18,005
And with it, I know that Signal have said,

370
00:26:18,545 --> 00:26:19,545
well, the government have said to Signal

371
00:26:19,545 --> 00:26:20,845
that they want to have backdoor access,

372
00:26:21,125 --> 00:26:22,345
and they somehow trying to say

373
00:26:22,345 --> 00:26:24,145
that they can still be end-to-end encrypted.

374
00:26:24,145 --> 00:26:27,345
but Signal just said they're going to leave the UK

375
00:26:27,345 --> 00:26:28,485
if they try and make them do that

376
00:26:28,485 --> 00:26:31,565
I applaud Signal and Signal Foundation

377
00:26:31,565 --> 00:26:32,565
for doing that

378
00:26:32,565 --> 00:26:34,945
and I hope they will do that

379
00:26:34,945 --> 00:26:37,185
once that terrible point is reached

380
00:26:37,185 --> 00:26:39,485
obviously I hope that point will never be reached

381
00:26:39,485 --> 00:26:41,805
but they should definitely do it

382
00:26:41,805 --> 00:26:43,745
and I hope the parliamentarians in the UK

383
00:26:43,745 --> 00:26:44,925
will feel what it feels like

384
00:26:44,925 --> 00:26:47,325
when Signal doesn't exist in that country anymore

385
00:26:47,325 --> 00:26:49,845
but yes it feels like

386
00:26:49,845 --> 00:26:51,085
we're taking a huge step back

387
00:26:51,085 --> 00:26:53,425
the Online Safety Act at this point

388
00:26:53,425 --> 00:27:02,625
it looks more like a way to regulate internet access to public internet services like Twitter,

389
00:27:02,625 --> 00:27:09,905
Reddit, and so on. At this point, this is how we see it. Once they enforce messengers that are

390
00:27:09,905 --> 00:27:14,385
meant for peer-to-peer, person-to-person interaction as well with the same techniques,

391
00:27:15,025 --> 00:27:20,465
then I think most people will start... Hopefully most people will start to question whether this

392
00:27:20,465 --> 00:27:28,225
was this is like truly just an issue for for the criminals or not so yeah online safety act is

393
00:27:28,225 --> 00:27:36,785
it's it's truly astonishing how fast uh things have changed in the last couple weeks we should

394
00:27:36,785 --> 00:27:43,905
say maybe in in france something similar happened uh one month ago or one month before that when um

395
00:27:43,905 --> 00:27:49,285
under a similar disguise maybe we can put those actually actually side next to each other in

396
00:27:49,285 --> 00:27:55,065
France, they've started to regulate the internet because of porn. Because they say porn is not,

397
00:27:55,245 --> 00:28:00,805
you know, this is not moral. And you need to verify that you're actually holding a credit card

398
00:28:00,805 --> 00:28:09,085
in order to access a porn website. Right? So because it's immoral. And then in the UK,

399
00:28:09,805 --> 00:28:15,665
the narrative is save the children, protect the children. You know, it's very dangerous if children

400
00:28:15,665 --> 00:28:24,065
can read a Reddit forum or be just a free user on X on Twitter.

401
00:28:24,765 --> 00:28:32,285
So in both of these cases, and remembering the crypto wars 1.0, where this was about

402
00:28:32,285 --> 00:28:38,225
drug dealers and human trafficking, it's basically, there is a scapegoat.

403
00:28:38,225 --> 00:28:47,745
But there is some kind of a narrative du jour that people come up with that strikes the chords of the population the most.

404
00:28:48,445 --> 00:28:49,685
Currently, it's about the children.

405
00:28:50,205 --> 00:28:52,785
It's always been about the children for a while, actually.

406
00:28:53,285 --> 00:28:56,545
And it also feels like literally no one cares about the children.

407
00:28:58,465 --> 00:29:01,825
It really doesn't feel like they're trying to help the children at all.

408
00:29:02,465 --> 00:29:04,325
You might even say, you know, the opposite.

409
00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:14,105
it but um so right now we've seen in the last couple weeks that a surprising shocking number

410
00:29:14,105 --> 00:29:20,045
of internet platforms have introduced uh age verification due to the online safety act

411
00:29:20,045 --> 00:29:25,645
in the uk so that means if you're an online user your ip address is from the united kingdom

412
00:29:25,645 --> 00:29:33,665
then um you go to reddit or to twitter and many other platforms and you will you won't

413
00:29:33,665 --> 00:29:41,305
even spotify you won't see or hear certain types of content that was deemed to be not okay for

414
00:29:41,305 --> 00:29:47,405
children by someone that someone could be an automated algorithm that makes mistakes that

415
00:29:47,405 --> 00:29:52,285
also could be just you know a ministry of truth in that country that presses the button like this

416
00:29:52,285 --> 00:29:59,485
is okay and this is not okay and um you know you know just this is not this is not about porn or

417
00:29:59,485 --> 00:30:05,985
hiding like nudity or anything uh rather what we've seen like there are already mistakes that

418
00:30:05,985 --> 00:30:12,065
are showing up i've recently seen um a post by you know i'm not an expert in uk politics but

419
00:30:12,065 --> 00:30:18,925
like we're uh there was like a post by by some politicians in the uk where they said like we're

420
00:30:18,925 --> 00:30:24,165
making a new party and they're leaving like your summers coalition or something like that and

421
00:30:24,165 --> 00:30:29,625
And then like, hey, I'm excited to start, you know, to join this new party or something like that.

422
00:30:29,625 --> 00:30:35,005
And that was blocked by the same online safety act.

423
00:30:35,605 --> 00:30:39,925
So it has already affected just pure political speech.

424
00:30:40,465 --> 00:30:41,865
Nothing bad about it.

425
00:30:41,905 --> 00:30:45,205
It's just like it was blocked by whatever mechanism that happened.

426
00:30:45,405 --> 00:30:47,385
It's terrible that this could even happen.

427
00:30:47,385 --> 00:30:54,785
and uh and if this just keeps continuing we'll see like more and more of the internet becoming

428
00:30:54,785 --> 00:31:03,025
a kyc hell where you're you'll have to identify yourself to participate now i need to say this

429
00:31:03,025 --> 00:31:08,185
it's called online safety act first of all this is like this is psyops uh like saying that word

430
00:31:08,185 --> 00:31:14,285
i feel bad saying that because it's it's like saying us8 you know it's a id and this is like

431
00:31:14,285 --> 00:31:22,505
online safety acts portrays this whole problem as if it's increasing safety somehow and it could

432
00:31:22,505 --> 00:31:26,005
be the opposite like maybe there's information that you really need to get but it's blocked by

433
00:31:26,005 --> 00:31:32,705
the online safety act because someone has you know sense press the sensor button um so

434
00:31:32,705 --> 00:31:48,105
So I think the end goal is to introduce a KYC door through which everyone needs to go in order to access the internet.

435
00:31:48,805 --> 00:31:52,165
Because, you know, this all ties back to the beginning of the story.

436
00:31:52,785 --> 00:31:56,285
The internet is the biggest innovation in human history.

437
00:31:56,685 --> 00:31:58,825
It is the most important thing that we need to protect.

438
00:31:58,825 --> 00:31:59,745
We're just at the beginning.

439
00:31:59,745 --> 00:32:03,065
Like, you know, the graph is just like starting here.

440
00:32:03,265 --> 00:32:07,585
And we have hopefully thousands more years to go as humans, right?

441
00:32:07,645 --> 00:32:09,425
Everything will be online and digital.

442
00:32:09,625 --> 00:32:10,085
That's clear.

443
00:32:10,225 --> 00:32:12,485
Everyone, like even the boomers got that at this point.

444
00:32:13,125 --> 00:32:15,525
And they're noticing that they're losing control.

445
00:32:16,425 --> 00:32:21,305
You know, people are talking to each other, spreading, you know, information about their

446
00:32:21,305 --> 00:32:26,525
governments, leaking information and, you know, holding people accountable.

447
00:32:26,525 --> 00:32:29,465
There is misinformation and fake news going on.

448
00:32:29,525 --> 00:32:31,865
They're talking about things that they shouldn't be talking about.

449
00:32:32,925 --> 00:32:40,845
So the political system is losing control about what people say and think and do.

450
00:32:41,045 --> 00:32:46,045
And more and more, it becomes stronger and stronger with every day because everything

451
00:32:46,045 --> 00:32:48,725
gets more digitized and more online.

452
00:32:49,625 --> 00:32:54,665
So now they're trying to put a door there where you need to go and you need to swipe

453
00:32:54,665 --> 00:33:00,125
your credit card before you can get into that door. And that's not how the internet was designed

454
00:33:00,125 --> 00:33:07,805
in the first place. So we need to, we need to put all our efforts into protecting that and

455
00:33:07,805 --> 00:33:14,465
hopefully helping people to circumvent these tools. I hear now that politicians in the UK

456
00:33:14,465 --> 00:33:19,885
are fighting even VPN use. It's like for the good of the children, please don't use a VPN.

457
00:33:20,365 --> 00:33:24,005
But I do think that's one of the most interesting things that came out of this. From the day that

458
00:33:24,005 --> 00:33:27,005
this online safety act was put in place.

459
00:33:28,045 --> 00:33:30,425
VPN usage went up like crazy in the UK.

460
00:33:30,605 --> 00:33:31,885
It was the top of all the app stores.

461
00:33:32,385 --> 00:33:34,165
And I just wonder if it's one of those things

462
00:33:34,165 --> 00:33:35,685
where things have to get bad enough

463
00:33:35,685 --> 00:33:38,785
for people to see kind of behind the veil

464
00:33:38,785 --> 00:33:39,845
and make change.

465
00:33:40,245 --> 00:33:42,365
Well, very good question.

466
00:33:42,925 --> 00:33:45,765
And I don't know if I'm optimistic about it.

467
00:33:46,245 --> 00:33:47,985
So we've just briefly talked about this.

468
00:33:47,985 --> 00:33:49,985
You know, we are...

469
00:33:49,985 --> 00:34:00,685
we're um we're governed by boomers old people they are let's say like 50 plus

470
00:34:00,685 --> 00:34:08,505
they don't know what the internet can be most of them don't know they're like the you know they're

471
00:34:08,505 --> 00:34:13,385
they're at the iphone level like yeah they've never you know done anything interesting with

472
00:34:13,385 --> 00:34:18,685
their computers most of them i'm not saying like everyone so there is an older population that just

473
00:34:18,685 --> 00:34:25,005
doesn't get it and it's too late to tell them and again like there are many ogs and very very cool

474
00:34:25,005 --> 00:34:32,225
very old you know super important old people that also help and fight this fight i'm just saying how

475
00:34:32,225 --> 00:34:39,365
it is and i don't think that you can you know you can really educate that part of the population

476
00:34:39,365 --> 00:34:47,825
about what the internet will be for the rest of humanity going forward they're kind of stuck in

477
00:34:47,825 --> 00:34:57,345
this, you know, you have 20 channels on your TV and information is filtered through this,

478
00:34:57,345 --> 00:35:03,985
this, the ministry of truth. And, and I never say anything edgy. I never did anything edgy.

479
00:35:04,485 --> 00:35:09,245
You know, those are people, often people will say, you know, I have nothing to hide. I have

480
00:35:09,245 --> 00:35:16,125
nothing. I've done nothing wrong. On the other spectrum, you have the younger generation,

481
00:35:16,125 --> 00:35:23,285
let's call them Gen Z, that really don't know what it felt like to be free on the internet.

482
00:35:23,865 --> 00:35:31,805
You have like people with now 16 years old, 18 years old, 14 years old. They're growing up now

483
00:35:31,805 --> 00:35:37,665
and they're growing up in a world where the internet already has to go through that door.

484
00:35:37,845 --> 00:35:44,125
They need to go through that door. So they don't know what it could be. There's a thin sliver

485
00:35:44,125 --> 00:35:52,665
of a population of let's call them like plus minus millennials that are that grew up with an

486
00:35:52,665 --> 00:36:01,225
internet that was like wild west complete freedom no identities just no logins yeah no logins you

487
00:36:01,225 --> 00:36:07,405
know just irc chat rooms anonymous people you just talk about your interests and you don't present

488
00:36:07,405 --> 00:36:13,905
yourself it's not about like look at me but it's look at this interesting thing and anything goes

489
00:36:13,905 --> 00:36:19,705
file sharing sharing of information the age of wikileaks you know we're going to revolutionize

490
00:36:19,705 --> 00:36:26,545
the way that the planet works because we can now finally communicate we're going to grow together

491
00:36:26,545 --> 00:36:32,545
as humanity because now we have this internet that is like this this web of neural web the

492
00:36:32,545 --> 00:36:39,205
global neural web that is going to like put us together there's like this idealism from that time

493
00:36:39,205 --> 00:36:41,885
affected only a small part of the population

494
00:36:41,885 --> 00:36:43,765
that is still around today.

495
00:36:44,105 --> 00:36:45,725
And those are the people that care the most.

496
00:36:46,045 --> 00:36:47,525
Do you think the birth of social media

497
00:36:47,525 --> 00:36:49,365
was like the death of the free and open internet?

498
00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:52,745
That's a good question.

499
00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:54,445
So the birth of social media,

500
00:36:55,285 --> 00:36:58,005
for anyone who has been around before social media,

501
00:36:58,505 --> 00:37:00,865
remembers this very vividly, I'm pretty sure,

502
00:37:01,205 --> 00:37:03,785
is when profile pictures started to pop up,

503
00:37:03,825 --> 00:37:05,985
when people put their faces online

504
00:37:05,985 --> 00:37:08,365
and then put their first name and last name there.

505
00:37:08,365 --> 00:37:13,765
whether they were single everyone else was like what the hell like why would you say who you are

506
00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:20,665
to everyone it's just you know and then people started put their uh their their vacation photos

507
00:37:20,665 --> 00:37:26,505
online and just dump everything without thinking twice about the consequences of that i mean you

508
00:37:26,505 --> 00:37:30,445
know there's also an interesting development there that people don't do that anymore the

509
00:37:30,445 --> 00:37:36,665
people starting to understand like it's kind of idiotic to just overshare yeah and could get you

510
00:37:36,665 --> 00:37:42,185
trouble to overshare. So you're kind of selectively sharing what's good or not.

511
00:37:43,025 --> 00:37:48,725
So, but yeah, the rise of social media was inevitable in the sense that the normies

512
00:37:48,725 --> 00:37:55,325
needed to join at some point, right? The internet should be in the hands of everyone. So, of course,

513
00:37:55,705 --> 00:38:04,965
it's going to get normalized. But what couldn't have been predicted maybe is that the social

514
00:38:04,965 --> 00:38:10,285
media platforms are going to dominate the internet and going to be the biggest companies in human

515
00:38:10,285 --> 00:38:16,685
history or be extremely profitable and control web standards fight web standards and you know

516
00:38:16,685 --> 00:38:22,365
build these silos that people think that that's the internet there are many countries out there

517
00:38:22,365 --> 00:38:29,825
where people think that the internet is facebook that's all they have and where you get free data

518
00:38:29,825 --> 00:38:36,025
if you want to access Facebook, but everything else is paid, you know, which is also against

519
00:38:36,025 --> 00:38:39,745
net neutrality principles where everything should be treated the same because bits and

520
00:38:39,745 --> 00:38:41,325
bytes are just bits and bytes, right?

521
00:38:41,845 --> 00:38:50,265
So I think, yes, social media definitely put us into a place where we rely on a small number

522
00:38:50,265 --> 00:38:54,605
of large corporations that have a lot of control over our lives.

523
00:38:54,605 --> 00:39:09,425
That's why it's so important to advocate for systems like Noster, where we're trying to bootstrap social connections outside of the control of individual companies.

524
00:39:10,485 --> 00:39:21,985
And it's just because there is too much risk to put all your communication, all your social online life into the hands of a single company or a small number of companies.

525
00:39:21,985 --> 00:39:42,885
And yeah, so they have accumulated so much power that at the end of the day, once the draconian laws come into play, like the Online Safety Act, it becomes trivial to control those companies politically and then affect billions of people at this point, which we're seeing now.

526
00:39:43,885 --> 00:39:47,465
So I want to move on to the financial privacy side of it.

527
00:39:47,525 --> 00:39:50,065
We did a first show on what you're building at Cashew.

528
00:39:51,345 --> 00:39:52,985
I think it was about two years ago now.

529
00:39:53,145 --> 00:39:56,525
So a lot's changed, and it was really in its infancy then compared to where it is today.

530
00:39:56,865 --> 00:40:01,105
Do you want to start by talking about what eCash is and what you're building at Cashew?

531
00:40:01,285 --> 00:40:01,505
Yes.

532
00:40:02,485 --> 00:40:05,165
So let's start with a bit of history.

533
00:40:05,485 --> 00:40:09,685
So this system that we're working on is called Chomian eCash.

534
00:40:09,685 --> 00:40:16,385
and chomming e-cash is named after the inventor of this david chom and david chom is one of the

535
00:40:17,385 --> 00:40:23,445
og cryptography professors who's done so much for the fact you know that we have private

536
00:40:23,445 --> 00:40:30,285
communications today and he's working on private voting and he also invented the concept of digital

537
00:40:30,285 --> 00:40:38,525
cash so e-cash was invented in a famous paper and blind signatures in 1982 by david chom

538
00:40:38,525 --> 00:40:45,865
where he described for the first time how to make a digital money that works online but is untraceable.

539
00:40:45,865 --> 00:40:50,065
So it has the same properties as physical cash, but digital.

540
00:40:50,425 --> 00:40:52,345
So e-cash, electronic cash.

541
00:40:53,105 --> 00:40:57,105
And he was way too early for the world.

542
00:40:57,265 --> 00:40:58,465
No one was online yet.

543
00:40:58,705 --> 00:41:02,965
The internet still takes like 15 years to propagate to most people.

544
00:41:02,965 --> 00:41:05,485
And even then, people weren't spending money on the internet like they are today.

545
00:41:05,485 --> 00:41:09,005
No, no, no. There were no websites to spend money on the internet on.

546
00:41:09,425 --> 00:41:12,505
But he was extremely visionary, extremely visionary.

547
00:41:12,725 --> 00:41:15,425
And he's also, you know, he's famous for saying things like

548
00:41:15,425 --> 00:41:19,305
that privacy is a necessity for a free society.

549
00:41:20,065 --> 00:41:26,265
So he knew in the 80s that we're going to live in the world that we live today.

550
00:41:26,605 --> 00:41:29,565
He knew that everything will be digital at some point

551
00:41:29,565 --> 00:41:30,865
and everything will touch the internet.

552
00:41:30,865 --> 00:41:35,965
So we need to work on a way to make private transactions possible on the internet.

553
00:41:36,185 --> 00:41:41,685
Otherwise, the internet cannot work because you're not going to register for every single

554
00:41:41,685 --> 00:41:43,225
service that you're going to use, right?

555
00:41:43,405 --> 00:41:44,665
So that's kind of funny.

556
00:41:45,465 --> 00:41:46,305
Yes, we are.

557
00:41:46,485 --> 00:41:46,905
Yes, we are.

558
00:41:47,345 --> 00:41:50,145
So he came up with this idea and it's called Chominy eCash.

559
00:41:50,205 --> 00:41:52,765
And it was 30 years before Bitcoin.

560
00:41:52,765 --> 00:42:02,585
And he started a research revolution in which thousands and thousands of researchers after his invention tried to improve on it.

561
00:42:02,865 --> 00:42:05,325
And that's the quest for digital cash, by the way.

562
00:42:05,625 --> 00:42:06,545
So it starts with him.

563
00:42:06,905 --> 00:42:11,325
And people have been working for decades for how to improve the system.

564
00:42:11,425 --> 00:42:17,625
Because there was one big flaw in his idea, which is you need the banking system in order to make it work.

565
00:42:17,625 --> 00:42:22,325
So his idea was, so I'll briefly explain what it is, is you go to a bank.

566
00:42:22,765 --> 00:42:27,585
your bank Chase account. And then, you know, imagine you go to an ATM and you withdraw

567
00:42:27,585 --> 00:42:31,685
physical cash, right? So it's subtracts from bank account, you get physical cash, and then you go

568
00:42:31,685 --> 00:42:36,185
around and spend it. Instead of doing that with physical cash, you do it with electronic cash.

569
00:42:36,245 --> 00:42:41,185
You log into your bank account, you press a button, you download eCash that's stored on your device,

570
00:42:41,185 --> 00:42:46,885
and then you walk around the internet and you spend it. And then the receiver gets the eCash,

571
00:42:47,145 --> 00:42:51,065
and then they can go back to the bank and then say, like, look, here's eCash. Can I have it back

572
00:42:51,065 --> 00:42:55,085
on my bank account. So that's how he envisioned it. So maybe the naive part of that was thinking

573
00:42:55,085 --> 00:43:00,025
that banks would give up that kind of financial surveillance. Well, interestingly, the world was

574
00:43:00,025 --> 00:43:06,545
different back then. So the banks loved this idea. This was the most revolutionary financial

575
00:43:06,545 --> 00:43:12,505
technology on the block back then. And literally everyone wanted a piece of it.

576
00:43:12,845 --> 00:43:19,205
Wasn't it even in Windows 95? They were very close to putting it into there. They had the

577
00:43:19,205 --> 00:43:23,905
history of it is crazy so you had like the big banks they wanted this like they said this is

578
00:43:23,905 --> 00:43:28,665
crazy we want this everything is going to be online let's put e-cash into our systems so there

579
00:43:28,665 --> 00:43:33,745
were already digicash is the company by david chom that had these talks and then even microsoft

580
00:43:33,745 --> 00:43:39,045
that might have been one of the biggest potential deals was said that like this is this is great

581
00:43:39,045 --> 00:43:46,605
let's put this into windows 95 maybe 98 uh i'm don't quite remember let's put it like as a

582
00:43:46,605 --> 00:43:53,865
standard default wallet into every installation and um well you would ask like why didn't it happen

583
00:43:53,865 --> 00:43:59,985
and the reasons for that is kind of like business related when you look back it's like david shawm

584
00:43:59,985 --> 00:44:05,245
did some mistakes and the negotiations were really bad and he changed the terms after saying yes and

585
00:44:05,245 --> 00:44:12,445
so on blah blah blah and none of this happened so all these big banks is credit suisse and you had

586
00:44:12,445 --> 00:44:17,945
like MasterCard and you had like Bank of America, like big, big, big banks. We said like, we want

587
00:44:17,945 --> 00:44:23,805
this. And then everyone was evading, awaiting it to happen. This is mid nineties, beginning nineties.

588
00:44:24,165 --> 00:44:30,605
And then nothing happened. Like none of them really implemented this. And then there's silence.

589
00:44:30,605 --> 00:44:39,185
And then 95, 96, 98, we had credit cards, you know, things like PayPal pop up and those kind of

590
00:44:39,185 --> 00:44:40,605
completely different.

591
00:44:40,825 --> 00:44:44,045
There's no notion of privacy

592
00:44:44,045 --> 00:44:46,325
in the systems that came after it

593
00:44:46,325 --> 00:44:48,005
and then conquered the internet.

594
00:44:48,705 --> 00:44:50,985
But I think what's more interesting

595
00:44:50,985 --> 00:44:52,505
than the business perspective here

596
00:44:52,505 --> 00:44:53,805
is the research perspective

597
00:44:53,805 --> 00:44:55,285
that this caused.

598
00:44:55,645 --> 00:44:56,925
So in 98,

599
00:44:57,105 --> 00:44:58,125
when you started working on this,

600
00:44:58,705 --> 00:44:59,185
people started,

601
00:44:59,365 --> 00:45:00,105
like the cypherpunks

602
00:45:00,105 --> 00:45:01,225
are getting started.

603
00:45:01,465 --> 00:45:02,705
And they noticed that

604
00:45:02,705 --> 00:45:04,325
this is amazing.

605
00:45:04,485 --> 00:45:05,525
We need digital money

606
00:45:05,525 --> 00:45:06,185
for the internet.

607
00:45:06,385 --> 00:45:07,325
This is privacy preserving.

608
00:45:07,325 --> 00:45:09,345
Now let's make it decentralized.

609
00:45:09,685 --> 00:45:12,945
Now let's take away the trust part

610
00:45:12,945 --> 00:45:16,005
that we still require towards the banks.

611
00:45:17,665 --> 00:45:20,405
And then there is like 25 years of research.

612
00:45:20,925 --> 00:45:23,605
And what they're all trying is kind of like improve e-cash,

613
00:45:23,805 --> 00:45:26,845
try to like get rid of the trust here

614
00:45:26,845 --> 00:45:28,465
and improve the properties there.

615
00:45:28,785 --> 00:45:31,745
And you see all these papers coming out.

616
00:45:32,205 --> 00:45:34,285
These are like wide eyes, B money and things like that.

617
00:45:34,285 --> 00:45:47,945
Yes, so they all built on this whole story that starts with David Schaum until Satoshi Nakamoto, 2008, 2009, where he released the white paper, the first code.

618
00:45:47,945 --> 00:45:52,565
and with finally a solution to the electronic cash problem,

619
00:45:52,705 --> 00:45:57,385
which is finally a way that is sustainable, that works,

620
00:45:57,825 --> 00:46:00,965
that doesn't require any third parties or intermediaries

621
00:46:00,965 --> 00:46:03,285
where we can transact with electronic cash,

622
00:46:04,225 --> 00:46:05,665
a peer-to-peer electronic cash,

623
00:46:05,725 --> 00:46:07,205
the title of the Bitcoin white paper,

624
00:46:08,005 --> 00:46:10,205
is where we can transact with electronic cash

625
00:46:10,205 --> 00:46:11,825
without the need for the banks.

626
00:46:12,205 --> 00:46:13,485
And the way that he did it is,

627
00:46:13,825 --> 00:46:23,890
first of all he decentralized it So he came up with a way to decentralize it He came up with a way to with a similar way to how he decentralized he also managed to you know

628
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:27,250
to limit the issuance of it, 21 million Bitcoin.

629
00:46:28,610 --> 00:46:33,590
And back it with physical energies

630
00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:35,390
to protect it from the outside, right?

631
00:46:35,450 --> 00:46:36,450
So fantastic.

632
00:46:36,450 --> 00:46:40,870
And that's kind of the conclusion of this quest,

633
00:46:41,110 --> 00:46:42,350
which was finally found.

634
00:46:42,350 --> 00:46:48,190
and um so at this point we're very different from original charming e-cash there is no bank involved

635
00:46:48,190 --> 00:46:53,910
but there's also no like tokens that you share and so on this is a blockchain system like that's

636
00:46:53,910 --> 00:47:00,530
invented the idea of blockchains you can imagine this like in the physical in the ether there is

637
00:47:00,530 --> 00:47:04,710
some kind of like this this this blockchain thing and then when you want to make a payment you just

638
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:09,270
like say hey blockchain i want to send money to danny and then something happens here and then

639
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:11,270
it pops up on your site.

640
00:47:12,330 --> 00:47:14,930
So then we started looking into Bitcoin

641
00:47:14,930 --> 00:47:16,170
and Bitcoin was its revolution.

642
00:47:17,310 --> 00:47:18,390
But the big trade-off with Bitcoin

643
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:19,950
is that it isn't inherently private.

644
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:23,490
Yes, that's one of the trade-offs of Bitcoin

645
00:47:23,490 --> 00:47:25,830
is it's not inherently private.

646
00:47:25,970 --> 00:47:27,430
Although, you know, to be fair,

647
00:47:27,570 --> 00:47:30,510
some of the altcoins that came after

648
00:47:30,510 --> 00:47:32,370
also found ways to make it more private.

649
00:47:32,970 --> 00:47:35,010
Also accepting other trade-offs, right?

650
00:47:35,010 --> 00:47:36,790
That we don't want to accept in Bitcoin.

651
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:37,630
The auditability.

652
00:47:37,890 --> 00:47:39,070
Especially the auditability.

653
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:42,670
So there's a trade-off between privacy and auditability.

654
00:47:43,290 --> 00:47:46,270
And Bitcoin went full-on auditability, no privacy,

655
00:47:46,490 --> 00:47:51,290
in that sense that all the transactions can be traced in the blockchain,

656
00:47:51,490 --> 00:47:53,350
but you don't need an account with the bank.

657
00:47:53,490 --> 00:47:54,910
So you're just like a random number.

658
00:47:55,450 --> 00:47:56,770
So you don't need an ID.

659
00:47:57,010 --> 00:47:58,130
You don't need to talk to anyone.

660
00:47:58,230 --> 00:48:01,990
You just start your Bitcoin node, and you're immediately part of the system.

661
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:04,450
And you're making it stronger by starting your Bitcoin node.

662
00:48:05,070 --> 00:48:07,030
So it's an amazing thing.

663
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:08,510
It started a whole revolution.

664
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:14,130
And so that's one trade-off is the privacy.

665
00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:15,770
And the other one is speed.

666
00:48:16,310 --> 00:48:18,330
So Bitcoin is slow by design

667
00:48:18,330 --> 00:48:22,250
and it is slow because we want to keep it decentralized

668
00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:24,690
and easy to verify and easy to participate.

669
00:48:24,990 --> 00:48:28,890
So there's again, another trade-off is a super fast system

670
00:48:28,890 --> 00:48:31,030
and how many people can participate, right?

671
00:48:31,070 --> 00:48:33,350
A super fast system requires very big servers.

672
00:48:33,490 --> 00:48:35,890
So then your Bitcoin node is not like this,

673
00:48:35,890 --> 00:48:38,150
like a hundred dollar machine

674
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:40,150
that you can run in your bedroom

675
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:42,010
that protects the Bitcoin system.

676
00:48:42,910 --> 00:48:44,590
Whereas like when you go full retard,

677
00:48:44,830 --> 00:48:46,830
like Solana is like,

678
00:48:47,050 --> 00:48:48,810
we don't care about decentralization.

679
00:48:49,170 --> 00:48:49,670
Like we're just-

680
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:50,410
There's three nodes.

681
00:48:50,550 --> 00:48:51,310
Super fast,

682
00:48:51,410 --> 00:48:52,770
but there's only like three nodes

683
00:48:52,770 --> 00:48:54,050
controlled by a single company.

684
00:48:54,170 --> 00:48:54,710
Like, I don't know,

685
00:48:54,910 --> 00:48:56,450
but like a handful of people

686
00:48:56,450 --> 00:48:58,350
and no one can reproduce it

687
00:48:58,350 --> 00:48:59,970
or replicate the system.

688
00:49:00,310 --> 00:49:02,370
And like, they want that.

689
00:49:02,510 --> 00:49:03,850
Like, whatever, like have fun.

690
00:49:03,850 --> 00:49:11,230
so um it's it's not really private and it's not really fast and those are very conscious decisions

691
00:49:11,230 --> 00:49:20,290
that are necessary to make bitcoin successful that satoshi chose um very consciously so okay

692
00:49:20,290 --> 00:49:32,410
um 82 2008 and then 10 years of bitcoin uh 15 years of bitcoin we're building the lightning

693
00:49:32,410 --> 00:49:37,530
network. We're trying to scale it and so on and so forth. But very early in the history of Bitcoin,

694
00:49:37,710 --> 00:49:49,490
already 2010, I think, there were already people theorizing about now that we have a

695
00:49:49,490 --> 00:49:57,750
parallel financial system, can't we implement the ideas of David Charm on top of that parallel

696
00:49:57,750 --> 00:50:02,390
financial system, on top of Bitcoin? So in the beginning, we needed to build this on the banks.

697
00:50:02,410 --> 00:50:05,390
and all the problems with making deals

698
00:50:05,390 --> 00:50:07,490
and the bank says no and then it doesn't happen.

699
00:50:08,190 --> 00:50:09,310
Let's scratch all that.

700
00:50:09,570 --> 00:50:10,950
We have a system that cannot be stopped.

701
00:50:11,730 --> 00:50:14,110
Let's build a charming e-cash banks on top of that.

702
00:50:14,990 --> 00:50:19,590
And Halfini himself, the first Bitcoin contributor,

703
00:50:20,330 --> 00:50:23,890
the first person who was positive towards Satoshi Nakamoto,

704
00:50:24,030 --> 00:50:25,850
by the way, everyone else said it's not going to work.

705
00:50:25,850 --> 00:50:27,630
And he was the first one that said like, amazing.

706
00:50:28,850 --> 00:50:31,970
He even proposed this very early on

707
00:50:31,970 --> 00:50:36,350
that we could build like charmian banks on top of bitcoin right so and then he saw like the vision

708
00:50:36,350 --> 00:50:42,270
of his bitcoin world before you know we have now also other ways of thinking about scaling that

709
00:50:42,270 --> 00:50:48,470
weren't present back then but he already envisioned that so 15 years later then a couple of projects

710
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:53,490
in bitcoin started to pop up that actually wanted to implement this idea and i want to know that two

711
00:50:53,490 --> 00:50:59,310
of them are fediment and cashew i work on cashew it's a charming e-cash system so what this allows

712
00:50:59,310 --> 00:51:08,030
you to do is to basically build a community bank on top of bitcoin without having to ask anyone to

713
00:51:08,030 --> 00:51:13,850
do it you just like plug it into your computer the bitcoin protocol is underneath it and you can like

714
00:51:13,850 --> 00:51:20,550
run the software on top and then issue e-cash tokens that are backed by the bitcoin that people

715
00:51:20,550 --> 00:51:26,610
can deposit or not so replace the entire bank account thing with bitcoin and then issue digital

716
00:51:26,610 --> 00:51:35,370
e-cash to the users they can now trade online on the internet for example and so what this gives us

717
00:51:35,370 --> 00:51:44,330
today de facto is mainly two things is one of one is that it greatly increases the privacy of

718
00:51:44,330 --> 00:51:48,990
custodial solutions right now so this is a trust-based system still you still need to trust

719
00:51:48,990 --> 00:51:59,650
the issuer of the e-cash that they don't debase the e-cash um but it but accepting that is uh makes

720
00:51:59,650 --> 00:52:04,430
you allows you to increase the privacy of that system like many many folds so it's like almost

721
00:52:04,430 --> 00:52:10,730
perfect privacy e-cash is known to be like the best in class in terms of privacy and the reason

722
00:52:10,730 --> 00:52:16,650
for that is like many cryptographic reasons as well but like you can imagine the fact that i have

723
00:52:16,650 --> 00:52:23,570
now a bear e-cash token that is like cash in my digital wallet. And to pay you, I don't have to

724
00:52:23,570 --> 00:52:27,750
now call the Bitcoin blockchain and say, hey, Bitcoin blockchain, can you send any money?

725
00:52:28,250 --> 00:52:32,610
I can just take it out from my phone and just hand it over to you. You can scan it with a QR

726
00:52:32,610 --> 00:52:37,450
code. We can do tap to pay or something like that. So the money flows peer to peer from me to you

727
00:52:37,450 --> 00:52:41,650
and doesn't even really touch the internet. And you can do offline payments with this.

728
00:52:41,650 --> 00:52:42,590
One side can be offline.

729
00:52:42,810 --> 00:52:45,750
So to complete the entire flow is you need to,

730
00:52:46,050 --> 00:52:50,970
the receiver needs to reissue the token once with the mint.

731
00:52:51,090 --> 00:52:55,670
We call this object, the issuer, we call it the mint.

732
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:58,550
You need to reissue the token once.

733
00:52:58,690 --> 00:53:00,450
Otherwise I could double spend it with someone else.

734
00:53:01,070 --> 00:53:03,630
So this is super cool because first of all,

735
00:53:03,670 --> 00:53:06,550
the transaction is kind of, it doesn't require the internet.

736
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:10,270
The payment itself happens only between the two of us.

737
00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:14,370
You need internet to verify and then reissue.

738
00:53:14,550 --> 00:53:17,110
So I cannot double spend the coin that I just gave you.

739
00:53:18,050 --> 00:53:20,730
But we can also reverse the roles.

740
00:53:21,250 --> 00:53:25,070
You could be offline as a receiver and I could be online as the sender.

741
00:53:25,570 --> 00:53:31,670
And what I can do is I can lock the eCash token so I can construct the token so that only you can spend it.

742
00:53:32,010 --> 00:53:35,170
So you can look at it and say like, this is a token that only I can spend.

743
00:53:35,530 --> 00:53:36,730
You don't need to be online for that.

744
00:53:36,730 --> 00:53:42,470
So with eCash, we can build a system where one of the two parties can be offline and we can still make a transaction work.

745
00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:45,310
Make it work means not double spend the token.

746
00:53:45,850 --> 00:53:52,610
And this is like very common for a merchant situation where you have a merchant.

747
00:53:52,850 --> 00:53:54,730
The merchant is, for example, online.

748
00:53:54,990 --> 00:53:58,390
They have a payment terminal point of sale that is connected to the Internet.

749
00:53:58,870 --> 00:54:03,070
And then I, as a customer, can come with my eCash wallet that is backed by Bitcoin.

750
00:54:03,070 --> 00:54:05,570
and I can just like do tap

751
00:54:05,570 --> 00:54:07,850
and it goes instantly goes from my phone

752
00:54:07,850 --> 00:54:08,950
into the POS system.

753
00:54:09,110 --> 00:54:10,730
The POS is internet and can say like,

754
00:54:10,830 --> 00:54:12,110
this is verified, everything is done.

755
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:14,190
So I can be offline as a payer.

756
00:54:14,530 --> 00:54:16,490
It gives me amazing privacy for the payer

757
00:54:16,490 --> 00:54:19,050
and like instant confirmation.

758
00:54:19,830 --> 00:54:20,770
So I think one of the things

759
00:54:20,770 --> 00:54:23,110
that's probably most misunderstood about eCash

760
00:54:23,110 --> 00:54:24,950
is the fact that there is a central issue.

761
00:54:25,130 --> 00:54:27,450
So you're not in total control of your own funds.

762
00:54:28,050 --> 00:54:31,050
But maybe you could explain how you should use that

763
00:54:31,050 --> 00:54:32,930
to make that as little of an issue as possible.

764
00:54:32,930 --> 00:54:37,210
And then also last time we spoke, these things like multi-nut payments weren't a thing.

765
00:54:37,330 --> 00:54:38,630
So maybe you can go through some of that.

766
00:54:38,850 --> 00:54:38,950
Yeah.

767
00:54:39,330 --> 00:54:41,270
So yeah, we've built quite a lot.

768
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:46,890
So the way you have to think about this is that, you know, there is not a single Mint,

769
00:54:47,290 --> 00:54:49,870
the big Mint that everyone uses.

770
00:54:50,130 --> 00:54:54,330
And we all need to trust that one Mint with the Bitcoin that we give

771
00:54:54,330 --> 00:54:56,630
and then hope that the e-cash that we get is actually backed.

772
00:54:57,110 --> 00:54:59,250
No, it's like a completely open source system.

773
00:54:59,250 --> 00:55:06,670
and it's just code that you can download and run yourself and you can run this for your local group

774
00:55:06,670 --> 00:55:12,010
of bitcoiners like 20 people if you want you can run a mint for them and what people are doing is

775
00:55:12,010 --> 00:55:17,670
like for for their village or for their uh for their like physical bitcoin meetup community that

776
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:25,850
there's like one technical guy and that technical guy runs the mint and the friends around the guy

777
00:55:25,850 --> 00:55:27,970
can use the Mint to make Lightning payments,

778
00:55:28,070 --> 00:55:30,430
to have like a custodial wallet with the guy,

779
00:55:30,910 --> 00:55:32,170
like an Uncle Jim system,

780
00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:35,470
where they can make Lightning payments.

781
00:55:35,690 --> 00:55:40,570
So it's enough to have one guy who's technical

782
00:55:40,570 --> 00:55:44,310
to help like 100 people around that guy

783
00:55:44,310 --> 00:55:46,710
to have like a perfectly private

784
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:50,050
and offline payment system that they can use.

785
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:52,250
But what we're also seeing is

786
00:55:52,250 --> 00:55:55,270
that this is not only for physical communities,

787
00:55:55,270 --> 00:56:02,130
but also like digital communities basically if you if you want so there are websites that have

788
00:56:02,130 --> 00:56:07,190
like some kind of a payment system inside and they they would usually like you go to a website and

789
00:56:07,190 --> 00:56:11,390
it says like you know charge your account then you send some bitcoin over then it says like you

790
00:56:11,390 --> 00:56:16,330
have now 20 000 satoshis on that website and then you do you press some buttons you watch a video

791
00:56:16,330 --> 00:56:22,270
video or something and that's like subtracts from your account right you can replace this system also

792
00:56:22,270 --> 00:56:23,370
with a Charmin Mint.

793
00:56:23,610 --> 00:56:25,770
So instead of like charging your account

794
00:56:25,770 --> 00:56:27,350
and then showing it like up there

795
00:56:27,350 --> 00:56:31,630
where the balance is like fully controlled

796
00:56:31,630 --> 00:56:33,810
on the web service database,

797
00:56:34,310 --> 00:56:36,290
what the web server can do is just run a mint

798
00:56:36,290 --> 00:56:37,390
and give you e-cache.

799
00:56:37,870 --> 00:56:39,870
And then you have the e-cache,

800
00:56:40,070 --> 00:56:41,130
you have it.

801
00:56:41,570 --> 00:56:43,150
And then you use the website

802
00:56:43,150 --> 00:56:44,610
by interacting with the website,

803
00:56:44,750 --> 00:56:46,770
you pay back the website for the services

804
00:56:46,770 --> 00:56:47,510
that you use.

805
00:56:47,570 --> 00:56:48,490
For example, video streaming.

806
00:56:48,910 --> 00:56:50,970
What we're seeing right now is for AI use,

807
00:56:51,070 --> 00:56:51,850
this is really popular.

808
00:56:52,270 --> 00:56:54,110
where people are building like chatbots,

809
00:56:54,890 --> 00:56:56,610
like AI chatbots that everyone knows,

810
00:56:56,970 --> 00:56:59,510
where you can pay Bitcoin to charge your balance.

811
00:56:59,730 --> 00:57:01,490
You don't really have, like you don't charge your balance,

812
00:57:01,530 --> 00:57:02,430
you get e-cash for it.

813
00:57:02,850 --> 00:57:04,870
And then as you chat with the chatbot,

814
00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:08,010
you pay for the service with the e-cash.

815
00:57:08,430 --> 00:57:09,150
And why is this cool?

816
00:57:09,510 --> 00:57:11,550
It's cool for several reasons,

817
00:57:11,710 --> 00:57:13,610
but like the most important part

818
00:57:13,610 --> 00:57:15,010
is that you don't need an account

819
00:57:15,010 --> 00:57:17,790
or you don't need to register to be able to use it.

820
00:57:17,850 --> 00:57:20,490
There is no email address or telephone number

821
00:57:20,490 --> 00:57:27,010
required to be able to use the system, you just send Bitcoin, get eCash, use eCash. That's it.

822
00:57:27,470 --> 00:57:35,230
And just pay it back. So it's super easy to onboard users. And at the same time,

823
00:57:35,610 --> 00:57:39,390
the privacy of using it is like best in class privacy. Just by default, it's like the best

824
00:57:39,390 --> 00:57:45,370
privacy that you can get. For the chatbot use case, it means that you as a person, you as an

825
00:57:45,370 --> 00:57:51,270
email address, you as an account identify, you cannot be connected to the payments that you do

826
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:57,810
for the chat interaction. So no one really knows who's the person now entering this text there.

827
00:57:58,250 --> 00:58:04,830
So we have use cases where people build wallets with this. And we have use cases where people

828
00:58:04,830 --> 00:58:11,550
just build web experiences with it. And the nice thing is there are many men's out there that are

829
00:58:11,550 --> 00:58:18,150
run by individuals, by companies, by web services, and so on that you can choose from. And you can,

830
00:58:18,390 --> 00:58:24,050
because it's a protocol, Cashew is a protocol. It's not an app. It's not a company. It's just a

831
00:58:24,050 --> 00:58:28,810
bunch of code with specifications. That means there are many different people who have built

832
00:58:28,810 --> 00:58:36,310
the mints and the wallets. So it's kind of the first that you can choose which wallet you want

833
00:58:36,310 --> 00:58:42,570
to use. And you can choose the custodian that you want to use. And you're not bound to that wallet

834
00:58:42,570 --> 00:58:48,990
or to the custodian. So you can choose from like 15 different wallets, the one that you like most.

835
00:58:49,410 --> 00:58:54,270
And then in that wallet, you can have like 10 different mints where you have like 2,000

836
00:58:54,270 --> 00:58:59,290
satoshis in this mint, 5,000 satoshis in that mint, and so on and so forth. And then just keep

837
00:58:59,290 --> 00:59:02,750
using it like a normal lightning wallet. So it doesn't lock you in. You can choose the software.

838
00:59:02,750 --> 00:59:05,550
If you don't like the software, you can just say, I don't want this anymore.

839
00:59:05,830 --> 00:59:11,690
Move to the other one and just keep using the same protocol with a different app made by someone completely different.

840
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:19,870
And you can also move your funds around between the different mints, depending on, let's say, I trust this guy more because this is like a regulated company.

841
00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:24,750
And I'm OK with leaving 100 bucks on that account.

842
00:59:25,530 --> 00:59:27,330
No, it's not an account, but getting from that mint.

843
00:59:27,330 --> 00:59:29,810
and like maybe 2,000 sets

844
00:59:29,810 --> 00:59:30,750
only from this rando

845
00:59:30,750 --> 00:59:32,150
that I found on the internet

846
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:33,750
that whose Mint I used.

847
00:59:34,690 --> 00:59:36,170
So, and this,

848
00:59:36,430 --> 00:59:37,710
most of it is abstracted away.

849
00:59:37,930 --> 00:59:38,530
So I was going to say

850
00:59:38,530 --> 00:59:39,390
for anyone listening to this,

851
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:40,670
it's not as complicated as it sounds.

852
00:59:40,670 --> 00:59:42,130
Like all of this is abstracted away.

853
00:59:42,270 --> 00:59:44,850
And the first time I ever received eCash

854
00:59:44,850 --> 00:59:46,170
was from you on the last show we did

855
00:59:46,170 --> 00:59:46,870
a couple of years ago.

856
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:47,510
Yeah, I remember.

857
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:48,810
And it was almost like

858
00:59:48,810 --> 00:59:50,050
the first time you send

859
00:59:50,050 --> 00:59:51,290
or receive a Bitcoin transaction.

860
00:59:51,410 --> 00:59:52,030
The fact that it's like,

861
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:52,870
holy shit,

862
00:59:53,330 --> 00:59:54,770
it's a mind-blowing thing.

863
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:55,650
People should try it out.

864
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:56,790
Yeah, you should try it out.

865
00:59:56,790 --> 00:59:59,770
So you can go to cashew.space.

866
00:59:59,990 --> 01:00:01,710
You'll find a few wallets there.

867
01:00:02,250 --> 01:00:05,570
And then you can discover mints using Nostra, and you'll find them.

868
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:07,430
You can try them out.

869
01:00:07,650 --> 01:00:10,110
The experience is very different from using a normal Bitcoin wallet

870
01:00:10,110 --> 01:00:12,070
because the eCache itself is like bearer.

871
01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:13,790
You can copy-paste it.

872
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:15,230
You can take the message.

873
01:00:15,470 --> 01:00:16,470
You can take the eCache.

874
01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:20,170
And I think last time I sent it to you over Signal or Telegram or something.

875
01:00:20,530 --> 01:00:22,890
And it looks like a piece of string text.

876
01:00:22,890 --> 01:00:30,490
That is like you can imagine it as a piece of paper money, basically, that you can send over the internet and the other person receives it.

877
01:00:31,170 --> 01:00:36,350
And because it's a bearer asset, the eCash itself is a bearer token.

878
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:52,030
We can build experiences with it that are not possible with like OG normal Bitcoin, which is, for example, tap to pay, which I'm very excited about because the fiat system is like really, you know, putting it out there.

879
01:00:52,030 --> 01:00:54,070
But the UX of Tap2Pay is amazing.

880
01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:59,070
The UX of, like, that's the most bearish thing that I can think of.

881
01:00:59,190 --> 01:01:05,410
You go to, you know, you go on a hike in Guatemala in the mountains, and there's like a little hut that sells you like a Coke.

882
01:01:06,270 --> 01:01:12,190
And in the middle of nowhere, you take out your iPhone, you do this beep, and it takes half a second, and the payment clears.

883
01:01:12,330 --> 01:01:18,330
It's just amazing, really, the level, the bar that they set.

884
01:01:18,490 --> 01:01:19,150
Very high.

885
01:01:19,150 --> 01:01:20,390
And it's very high.

886
01:01:20,390 --> 01:01:25,590
And we as an open source community working around Bitcoin, we should also try to replicate,

887
01:01:25,770 --> 01:01:30,690
you know, the same ease of use and the same intuition for payments.

888
01:01:31,450 --> 01:01:38,070
So with Cashew, we're really trying to rebuild also these experiences for the Bitcoin space

889
01:01:38,070 --> 01:01:42,530
because we care about how Bitcoin works and how easy it should be to use Bitcoin.

890
01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:50,070
In my mind, like the prototypical user I always think about is the mango selling old lady

891
01:01:50,070 --> 01:01:53,350
in the Brazilian beach where the internet is bad, right?

892
01:01:53,450 --> 01:01:56,190
That's like, I want to build software for her.

893
01:01:57,130 --> 01:01:59,610
I want her to have the best privacy

894
01:01:59,610 --> 01:02:00,870
and the best experience

895
01:02:00,870 --> 01:02:02,970
and like the fastest transaction possible.

896
01:02:03,710 --> 01:02:05,870
And I think we'll get there.

897
01:02:06,130 --> 01:02:08,810
So like it's one of the tools

898
01:02:08,810 --> 01:02:10,370
that we have in our tool belt.

899
01:02:10,730 --> 01:02:12,230
So when we last did that show,

900
01:02:12,310 --> 01:02:13,350
the Cashew Wallet was new.

901
01:02:13,450 --> 01:02:14,510
I remember you putting a tweet out,

902
01:02:14,570 --> 01:02:15,790
which was like, I've just built this.

903
01:02:15,870 --> 01:02:17,530
It's full of bugs, but have a play.

904
01:02:17,770 --> 01:02:19,770
And now, like I still use the Cashew Wallet.

905
01:02:19,770 --> 01:02:22,170
I've used macadamia as well. That's very good.

906
01:02:22,850 --> 01:02:24,290
What's the state of Cashew now?

907
01:02:24,370 --> 01:02:26,250
Is it to the point where it's really solid?

908
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:28,970
Anyone can trust it with a decent...

909
01:02:28,970 --> 01:02:30,770
Obviously, it's not something you're going to put a lot of money in,

910
01:02:30,810 --> 01:02:31,830
but a decent amount of money.

911
01:02:32,030 --> 01:02:38,190
Yeah, so I think in terms of software quality, cryptography,

912
01:02:39,050 --> 01:02:43,550
how much effort we've put into it at this point,

913
01:02:43,550 --> 01:02:48,810
I can really say it's a solid system, and I trust it.

914
01:02:48,810 --> 01:02:51,130
and it's open and verifiable.

915
01:02:51,410 --> 01:02:52,870
So you can just like, you can look at it.

916
01:02:52,990 --> 01:02:54,670
If you're competent, you can read the code

917
01:02:54,670 --> 01:02:56,230
and you can look at it yourself.

918
01:02:56,770 --> 01:02:59,070
And if you don't trust the app,

919
01:02:59,370 --> 01:03:00,950
if you don't trust the app that someone else made,

920
01:03:01,050 --> 01:03:02,270
you can just make your own app.

921
01:03:02,450 --> 01:03:03,750
There's specifications.

922
01:03:04,030 --> 01:03:05,310
They're written in English language

923
01:03:05,310 --> 01:03:06,950
and you can read those documents

924
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:08,670
that describe exactly how Cache works

925
01:03:08,670 --> 01:03:10,190
and you can build your own app.

926
01:03:10,510 --> 01:03:13,090
That's why there are like 15 different wallets.

927
01:03:13,850 --> 01:03:17,570
So in terms of software, I think, yes,

928
01:03:17,570 --> 01:03:22,430
where like really solid at this point it's super fast it's super reliable it just works

929
01:03:22,430 --> 01:03:30,710
and it doesn't require you to know any of the things that i just said uh it just works in terms

930
01:03:30,710 --> 01:03:37,930
of trust uh what it means to put money into it i would always advise people to just you know do it

931
01:03:37,930 --> 01:03:43,310
with microscopic amounts just small amounts i treat it you know i'm a developer in that space

932
01:03:43,310 --> 01:03:45,910
I treat it like my physical wallet.

933
01:03:46,250 --> 01:03:49,630
I wouldn't put like hundreds and hundreds of dollars

934
01:03:49,630 --> 01:03:51,490
into my physical wallet and run around

935
01:03:51,490 --> 01:03:52,850
because you could lose it.

936
01:03:52,930 --> 01:03:55,630
You could forget it in a bar and someone could steal it.

937
01:03:56,350 --> 01:04:01,150
So the way that you make that trade-off with physical cash,

938
01:04:01,630 --> 01:04:04,310
I make the same kind of trade-off with eCash.

939
01:04:04,490 --> 01:04:08,690
So I keep, I don't know, a dozen bucks, 20 bucks,

940
01:04:08,990 --> 01:04:11,790
maybe a hundred with different mints.

941
01:04:11,790 --> 01:04:19,390
and i tried to separate it if one of them tries to rug me well then i might lose like 20 bucks or so

942
01:04:19,390 --> 01:04:25,550
which obviously sucks but you know it's a calculated risk that i took have any of them

943
01:04:25,550 --> 01:04:31,410
yet any of them i don't know of any mint that has rugged so far no no one has rugged so far

944
01:04:31,410 --> 01:04:38,350
as far as i know like um i don't also i'm even like knock on wood there haven't been any major

945
01:04:38,350 --> 01:04:46,570
technical issues either. So I'm not aware of things going super bad for anyone. There might be

946
01:04:46,570 --> 01:04:53,430
a bug here and there with the wallet, but that's isolated issues. But no one has rugged. And I hope

947
01:04:53,430 --> 01:04:59,130
that continues. But obviously, it's not in my control. I don't run these systems. It's just

948
01:04:59,130 --> 01:05:04,710
people can do with it what they want. So I want to ask you a question that's a little bit awkward.

949
01:05:04,710 --> 01:05:06,830
and I'm nervous to ask it

950
01:05:06,830 --> 01:05:08,590
because I don't want to wish anything into the world.

951
01:05:08,770 --> 01:05:10,910
But when we've seen such a crackdown

952
01:05:10,910 --> 01:05:12,490
in privacy developers in Bitcoin,

953
01:05:13,230 --> 01:05:14,210
are you nervous at all?

954
01:05:16,050 --> 01:05:18,070
It does affect me.

955
01:05:18,330 --> 01:05:21,610
Yes, because I'm a normal person.

956
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:22,970
I care a lot.

957
01:05:23,310 --> 01:05:24,810
I care about the people in this space

958
01:05:24,810 --> 01:05:25,810
and I care about Bitcoin

959
01:05:25,810 --> 01:05:28,390
and I care about the safety of the people

960
01:05:28,390 --> 01:05:32,330
and what it does to the psyche of a developer.

961
01:05:33,370 --> 01:05:34,350
I'm not alone.

962
01:05:34,710 --> 01:05:37,210
I'm in touch with many developers out there.

963
01:05:37,650 --> 01:05:41,910
We're trying to be a union of developers

964
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:45,190
that also care about each other and each other's safety.

965
01:05:46,070 --> 01:05:50,150
So I'm not the only one who's affected

966
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:52,050
by the things happening around us

967
01:05:52,050 --> 01:05:55,310
because we all believe that we're doing the right thing.

968
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:56,770
We're doing a moral thing.

969
01:05:57,050 --> 01:06:00,930
And we're not trying to do anything bad.

970
01:06:01,070 --> 01:06:02,930
We're literally just trying to improve the world.

971
01:06:02,930 --> 01:06:06,690
and we're thinking about the most vulnerable

972
01:06:06,690 --> 01:06:08,750
and those who need it the most.

973
01:06:09,470 --> 01:06:10,510
And at the same time,

974
01:06:11,550 --> 01:06:15,030
you see that governments

975
01:06:15,030 --> 01:06:19,230
even contradict their own suggestions

976
01:06:19,230 --> 01:06:20,550
on how to operate, right?

977
01:06:20,650 --> 01:06:25,110
So we've seen Wasabi Wallet,

978
01:06:25,330 --> 01:06:26,670
I'm sorry, not Wasabi Wallet,

979
01:06:27,410 --> 01:06:29,010
Samurai Wallet and Tornado Cash

980
01:06:29,010 --> 01:06:30,090
as two prime examples

981
01:06:30,090 --> 01:06:31,650
that were the developers

982
01:06:31,650 --> 01:06:35,510
and the operators of these systems

983
01:06:35,510 --> 01:06:38,430
were heavily sanctioned

984
01:06:38,430 --> 01:06:41,750
and now also are threatened with jail time

985
01:06:41,750 --> 01:06:45,030
for operating non-custodial systems

986
01:06:45,030 --> 01:06:48,930
where everyone, like with FinCEN guidance, basically.

987
01:06:49,070 --> 01:06:51,190
Yeah, well, FinCEN said they couldn't register with them

988
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:51,990
even if they wanted to.

989
01:06:52,010 --> 01:06:54,190
Government guidance that says, you know,

990
01:06:54,510 --> 01:06:56,330
these are the rules, play by these rules,

991
01:06:56,430 --> 01:06:57,230
everything will be okay.

992
01:06:57,650 --> 01:06:59,110
And then you start building

993
01:06:59,110 --> 01:07:05,530
and then some, you know, due to unforeseen,

994
01:07:06,730 --> 01:07:10,970
how do you even calculate that risk?

995
01:07:12,310 --> 01:07:16,990
And so I think the most stressful part

996
01:07:16,990 --> 01:07:20,670
is just not knowing what the rules are.

997
01:07:20,930 --> 01:07:23,910
And when you don't know what the rules are,

998
01:07:24,450 --> 01:07:28,830
it can really affect your productivity.

999
01:07:29,110 --> 01:07:36,950
and i mean obviously also like mental health and and psyche and some people are more stress

1000
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:44,490
resistant than others but especially the the way that we can move forward to build to build our way

1001
01:07:44,490 --> 01:07:52,950
out of the old system it requires like a lot of energy and mission driven like focus and lots of

1002
01:07:52,950 --> 01:08:01,750
people cannot handle that you know the fact that we just don't know so i think it's more important

1003
01:08:01,750 --> 01:08:11,970
than ever to show support to your local neighborhood hacker to support them and to you know just be

1004
01:08:11,970 --> 01:08:19,910
vocal about what your ideals are and and and especially show them that they're not alone i

1005
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:27,970
know we're not alone we have like a big system of individuals and organizations that really care

1006
01:08:27,970 --> 01:08:39,450
and that that are also like that can protect uh you legally so i would advise for anyone who feels

1007
01:08:39,450 --> 01:08:45,130
like this and i again i know that there are people out there who feel like this to just reach out to

1008
01:08:45,130 --> 01:08:52,230
others and just talk about you know the situation that you're in and often it really helps a lot

1009
01:08:52,230 --> 01:09:01,290
but then again uh do not lose focus we you know we're just one individual in a larger process

1010
01:09:01,290 --> 01:09:09,470
and the goal is more important than the localized like little failures and the successes like the

1011
01:09:09,470 --> 01:09:16,210
goal is much, much, much bigger than that. And, you know, as long as we just keep moving into the

1012
01:09:16,210 --> 01:09:20,630
right direction, I think we'll, I hope we'll be okay. Yeah. Well, I think it's amazing what you're

1013
01:09:20,630 --> 01:09:34,575
doing I think you definitely are building tools that humanity needs So I very glad you staying in your building because I would understand why you might walk away from a project like this at the moment So I think it very cool But what next I know you been working on BitChat

1014
01:09:35,895 --> 01:09:37,515
Yeah, I've been also working on BitChat.

1015
01:09:37,695 --> 01:09:40,735
So I like freedom tech.

1016
01:09:40,915 --> 01:09:42,695
I like cypherpunk tech.

1017
01:09:42,695 --> 01:09:54,015
And for me, that means, you know, shaping the Internet in a way that I want the Internet to be and fulfilling the cypherpunk vision of the Internet.

1018
01:09:54,415 --> 01:10:00,875
So we've just talked a lot about Bitcoin, money, e-cash and how that, you know, the role that plays.

1019
01:10:01,695 --> 01:10:03,295
But communication is a big part.

1020
01:10:03,715 --> 01:10:10,075
Communication and, you know, things like Signal, for example, or Tor or Matrix.

1021
01:10:10,075 --> 01:10:11,735
Those are projects driving it forward.

1022
01:10:11,735 --> 01:10:17,995
so um recently i've been involved in a project called bitchat bitchat is a project started by

1023
01:10:17,995 --> 01:10:23,935
jack dorsey no other one than jack dorsey who uh i mean i had nothing to do with that he just came

1024
01:10:23,935 --> 01:10:30,335
up with a he vibe coded it he vibe coded a project that is a messenger that runs on your on your

1025
01:10:30,335 --> 01:10:37,275
iphone initially only on the iphone that's what he built that connects to uh to your peers over

1026
01:10:37,275 --> 01:10:41,495
bluetooth so you can chat over bluetooth but the most interesting part is that it builds a mesh

1027
01:10:41,495 --> 01:10:47,915
so it's a mesh network what does it mean you can imagine it like a network like a yeah like a

1028
01:10:47,915 --> 01:10:53,755
network of individual phones that all can like that can transport the messages between them so

1029
01:10:53,755 --> 01:11:01,895
the message between me and uh you um like if there are people between us they can transport that

1030
01:11:01,895 --> 01:11:08,415
message from me to you so that means like bluetooth it's a bluetooth mesh messenger and

1031
01:11:08,415 --> 01:11:12,635
Bluetooth has a fairly limited range in terms of proximity.

1032
01:11:13,155 --> 01:11:17,615
It can be a couple dozen meters or sometimes even more,

1033
01:11:17,955 --> 01:11:21,735
but it's certainly not going to be hundreds of kilometers.

1034
01:11:21,735 --> 01:11:22,835
It's not getting across the city.

1035
01:11:23,115 --> 01:11:23,295
No.

1036
01:11:23,955 --> 01:11:27,375
But if you have a mesh that is large enough,

1037
01:11:27,375 --> 01:11:30,855
there is at least a chance that you can reach your destination

1038
01:11:30,855 --> 01:11:32,975
through multiple hops through that mesh.

1039
01:11:33,895 --> 01:11:35,875
And lots of network systems work that way,

1040
01:11:35,875 --> 01:11:41,115
Even like the normal internet that you use is a protocol that is routed.

1041
01:11:41,455 --> 01:11:47,155
So when I send a message from my computer to your computer, it doesn't go like single hop,

1042
01:11:47,315 --> 01:11:50,895
but goes through several routers who all help me to reach you.

1043
01:11:51,415 --> 01:11:54,035
So you can imagine this a bit similar, but hyper localized.

1044
01:11:54,535 --> 01:11:58,115
So BitChat allows you to chat with those people in your proximity.

1045
01:11:58,675 --> 01:12:02,915
And wherever you go, it doesn't require an email address or sign up.

1046
01:12:02,915 --> 01:12:08,975
you can just like you start it up then you see who's around you and who's reachable and you can

1047
01:12:08,975 --> 01:12:13,635
just start chatting with them it's funny because i i didn't get in on the test flight of this app i

1048
01:12:13,635 --> 01:12:17,375
got it when it was like on main release only a few days ago and i've been looking at it and i've

1049
01:12:17,375 --> 01:12:22,655
not had a single connection until you walked in the door see yeah it's running on my phone and

1050
01:12:22,655 --> 01:12:27,155
yeah it's constantly like if you leave it running it constantly looks for other bit chat users and

1051
01:12:27,155 --> 01:12:33,535
you can just start chatting with them and um so he put out that ios app and i thought it's like

1052
01:12:33,535 --> 01:12:40,715
fantastic it's amazing it's like exactly it's up my alley and and uh i'm an android user so i took

1053
01:12:40,715 --> 01:12:48,335
it and i also like i heavily love vibe coding a lot so uh i took his ios app and translated it

1054
01:12:48,335 --> 01:12:54,435
into an android app that looks and feels the same and published that so now we're kind of working on

1055
01:12:54,435 --> 01:12:59,615
two different apps. He's building the iOS app. I'm building the Android app. And they're compatible

1056
01:12:59,615 --> 01:13:05,375
with each other so they can talk to each other. And we're at a conference here in Riga. And

1057
01:13:05,375 --> 01:13:13,295
today we had the developer conference, the pre-conference BTC++. And it was super fun and

1058
01:13:13,295 --> 01:13:19,175
very useful at that conference. So basically, lots of people have that app running. And you can just

1059
01:13:19,175 --> 01:13:25,255
You can watch a talk and you can take out BitChat and you see like 25 people are online right now.

1060
01:13:25,335 --> 01:13:27,115
And you can just talk about what you're seeing.

1061
01:13:27,315 --> 01:13:30,475
You can, you know, or say like, what's the Wi-Fi password?

1062
01:13:30,915 --> 01:13:35,315
And like people sending me the Wi-Fi password over BitChat because you can use it while you're offline.

1063
01:13:35,315 --> 01:13:43,275
It's just it relies on Bluetooth, which is completely different from the other Internet apps that you have on your phone.

1064
01:13:43,415 --> 01:13:47,835
So it's cool because it's a parallel system again.

1065
01:13:47,835 --> 01:13:49,475
It doesn't require internet.

1066
01:13:49,735 --> 01:13:51,075
It doesn't require registration.

1067
01:13:51,655 --> 01:13:54,595
And it doesn't require anyone's permission.

1068
01:13:54,935 --> 01:13:58,075
So you can just like, we don't need a SIM card

1069
01:13:58,075 --> 01:14:00,295
that we would have to buy and register.

1070
01:14:00,975 --> 01:14:03,375
Or we don't need a router that would need

1071
01:14:03,375 --> 01:14:04,755
like a cable internet connection.

1072
01:14:05,055 --> 01:14:07,315
It's just peer-to-peer pure magic

1073
01:14:07,315 --> 01:14:10,175
being, you know, hopping from one phone to another.

1074
01:14:10,555 --> 01:14:12,355
What's like the best use case for a mesh network?

1075
01:14:12,435 --> 01:14:14,355
Because even if you're in a pretty highly

1076
01:14:14,355 --> 01:14:16,155
densely populated city,

1077
01:14:16,155 --> 01:14:21,835
you still have like this so for example the building i live in like i could imagine a mesh

1078
01:14:21,835 --> 01:14:25,275
network working in that building but if i want to message the building over the street like it's

1079
01:14:25,275 --> 01:14:30,835
probably not going to reach that far so like what is the ideal use case for a mesh so um like with

1080
01:14:30,835 --> 01:14:35,395
any network there is a network effect that means like the it gets more useful the more people use

1081
01:14:35,395 --> 01:14:39,575
it yeah right so i mean that's also true for any messenger but here in this case it's like

1082
01:14:39,575 --> 01:14:44,455
literally true for the infrastructure itself so the more people have it running the more people

1083
01:14:44,455 --> 01:14:50,935
you can reach in principle funny because i also use it like in in apartments talking to to neighbors

1084
01:14:50,935 --> 01:14:57,295
and work kind of it worked really well um so let's say if they're like we don't know how well it

1085
01:14:57,295 --> 01:15:03,495
scales yet uh the the largest meshes are still kind of small but potentially like what are use

1086
01:15:03,495 --> 01:15:07,835
cases for it is especially in cases where the internet doesn't work this can really shine so

1087
01:15:07,835 --> 01:15:11,255
and there are many cases where the internet doesn't work especially when people concentrate

1088
01:15:11,255 --> 01:15:18,255
so this could be a sports stadium could be a festival could be a conference but it could also

1089
01:15:18,255 --> 01:15:24,655
be a disaster situation where i don't know maybe an emp has turned off the internet or some like

1090
01:15:24,655 --> 01:15:30,215
natural disaster has taken down the cell network or something where you still want to be able to

1091
01:15:30,215 --> 01:15:35,575
communicate to your neighborhood for example in those cases like an app like bitchin bitchat can

1092
01:15:35,575 --> 01:15:39,615
be the last digital communication that you have.

1093
01:15:39,735 --> 01:15:41,355
So obviously we're not building yet

1094
01:15:41,355 --> 01:15:42,475
for the disaster use case.

1095
01:15:42,735 --> 01:15:44,615
So it's still an early development

1096
01:15:44,615 --> 01:15:46,895
and we need to test it

1097
01:15:46,895 --> 01:15:51,275
and make sure that it scales to larger meshes

1098
01:15:51,275 --> 01:15:54,855
and see how reliable it is to reach people.

1099
01:15:55,795 --> 01:15:57,155
But it's looking pretty good so far.

1100
01:15:57,255 --> 01:15:58,875
So we're just going to keep improving it.

1101
01:15:59,595 --> 01:16:02,575
And I think since this hasn't really,

1102
01:16:02,675 --> 01:16:04,295
there are other mesh projects

1103
01:16:04,295 --> 01:16:07,795
that we can mention like MeshTastic or LoRa,

1104
01:16:08,115 --> 01:16:08,895
the technology.

1105
01:16:09,475 --> 01:16:12,095
There's FireChat that is like previous work

1106
01:16:12,095 --> 01:16:13,455
that has done something similar.

1107
01:16:14,155 --> 01:16:17,015
So maybe one interesting example here is FireChat,

1108
01:16:17,215 --> 01:16:21,295
which was important in the Hong Kong protest in 2019.

1109
01:16:21,575 --> 01:16:22,095
Oh, that's cool.

1110
01:16:22,835 --> 01:16:26,955
Yes, where the Chinese regime monitored

1111
01:16:26,955 --> 01:16:28,835
the internet of protesters

1112
01:16:28,835 --> 01:16:31,135
or also can play around with the internet,

1113
01:16:31,135 --> 01:16:34,755
and turn it off to basically make it harder

1114
01:16:34,755 --> 01:16:39,455
to voice your political opinion and organize on the streets.

1115
01:16:39,455 --> 01:16:42,115
People started using FireChat back then

1116
01:16:42,115 --> 01:16:43,555
to send each other messages.

1117
01:16:43,555 --> 01:16:46,855
Like, it's safe here now, now we're going here.

1118
01:16:46,855 --> 01:16:50,235
So anything where the communication requires you

1119
01:16:50,235 --> 01:16:53,575
to talk to lots of people around you

1120
01:16:53,575 --> 01:16:55,835
and you don't wanna go over the internet,

1121
01:16:55,835 --> 01:16:57,175
this is super useful.

1122
01:16:57,175 --> 01:16:58,015
That's very cool.

1123
01:16:58,015 --> 01:17:00,775
And so, like, as this scales,

1124
01:17:00,775 --> 01:17:02,195
Is it the kind of thing that you could use

1125
01:17:02,195 --> 01:17:04,955
as a mesh network that's also connected to the internet

1126
01:17:04,955 --> 01:17:06,815
when you're not in one of those disaster scenarios?

1127
01:17:06,815 --> 01:17:07,675
Yes.

1128
01:17:07,675 --> 01:17:09,855
Yes, so we're already working on this.

1129
01:17:09,855 --> 01:17:12,595
There are like already, you know,

1130
01:17:12,595 --> 01:17:14,535
BitChat has this already,

1131
01:17:14,535 --> 01:17:16,975
for the iOS app has this already integrated,

1132
01:17:16,975 --> 01:17:21,215
which we can, where we can connect meshes,

1133
01:17:21,215 --> 01:17:25,015
individual meshes basically through Noster.

1134
01:17:25,015 --> 01:17:28,295
So there's another freedom technology like Noster

1135
01:17:28,295 --> 01:17:31,075
where you can just talk to a public key, basically.

1136
01:17:31,075 --> 01:17:33,275
So the way it's implemented right now

1137
01:17:33,275 --> 01:17:36,595
is that we two meet in a physical space.

1138
01:17:36,595 --> 01:17:39,235
I see your phone, like your public key, you see mine,

1139
01:17:39,235 --> 01:17:40,895
and then we can favorite each other's.

1140
01:17:40,895 --> 01:17:43,435
So to make sure that we're actually the person

1141
01:17:43,435 --> 01:17:45,095
that you know that you're talking to.

1142
01:17:45,095 --> 01:17:47,795
And then when we spread and we go apart

1143
01:17:47,795 --> 01:17:50,655
and there is no Bluetooth connection between us anymore,

1144
01:17:50,655 --> 01:17:54,495
then we can default back to Noster, basically.

1145
01:17:54,495 --> 01:17:57,515
And then use the Noster network to talk to each other.

1146
01:17:57,515 --> 01:17:59,795
So it's not taking a social graph from Noster.

1147
01:17:59,915 --> 01:18:01,775
It's just using the public-private keypad.

1148
01:18:01,835 --> 01:18:06,095
So the base is like the, yes, the basis for it is your bit chat identity.

1149
01:18:06,315 --> 01:18:11,775
And Noster is just used as a communication layer in case the Bluetooth range is out of range.

1150
01:18:11,995 --> 01:18:12,395
I see.

1151
01:18:12,735 --> 01:18:13,655
That's very cool.

1152
01:18:14,075 --> 01:18:19,055
And so I want to know about you vibe coding this app because like I've never written a single line of code.

1153
01:18:19,075 --> 01:18:19,515
Oh, you should.

1154
01:18:19,515 --> 01:18:21,075
So that's where I'm at with this.

1155
01:18:21,075 --> 01:18:24,815
But when you take the iOS app that Jack developed,

1156
01:18:25,235 --> 01:18:27,495
is it literally as easy as like putting that through AI

1157
01:18:27,495 --> 01:18:29,755
and being like, make this the same, but for Android?

1158
01:18:30,835 --> 01:18:33,235
Kind of, yeah. Kind of, yes. And no.

1159
01:18:33,395 --> 01:18:37,415
I mean, it really, it definitely helps when you know,

1160
01:18:38,075 --> 01:18:40,675
if you know what you're doing and what the machine is doing.

1161
01:18:40,935 --> 01:18:43,415
Because like right now, the AI tools are in this like,

1162
01:18:43,535 --> 01:18:44,855
first of all, they're amazing.

1163
01:18:45,015 --> 01:18:48,815
So I should like be super encouraging to anyone listening here

1164
01:18:48,815 --> 01:18:56,055
is to try it out because coding itself gives you the feeling of, you know, agency. It is

1165
01:18:56,055 --> 01:19:04,375
the closest thing to magic in the current world that you can get to is making electrons do what

1166
01:19:04,375 --> 01:19:08,335
you want them to do, right? Trust me, Kelly. I know how much you love this. I remember when you

1167
01:19:08,335 --> 01:19:12,415
came to Bedford for cheat code on the second day, whenever I went to the football, everyone's

1168
01:19:12,415 --> 01:19:18,115
hanging out, drinking beers, you're in the clubhouse coding. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't alone.

1169
01:19:18,115 --> 01:19:26,795
So two years ago, maybe two years ago, this required expert level knowledge.

1170
01:19:27,415 --> 01:19:28,355
You couldn't do anything.

1171
01:19:28,555 --> 01:19:32,335
As a beginner, just to get to a point where you can do anything interesting

1172
01:19:32,335 --> 01:19:33,875
required so much effort.

1173
01:19:34,035 --> 01:19:35,455
And it's still worth the effort.

1174
01:19:36,455 --> 01:19:41,635
You should still learn how to really code if you really want to walk that path.

1175
01:19:42,015 --> 01:19:43,595
But sometimes you just want to make a website.

1176
01:19:43,915 --> 01:19:46,055
Sometimes you just want to make a game.

1177
01:19:46,055 --> 01:19:54,535
Sometimes like maybe you're a designer and you need a website or you have just like a crazy idea and you want to see it live and see like play around with it.

1178
01:19:54,815 --> 01:20:07,555
The tools today are good enough for a person who doesn't know like almost nothing about coding to get an agent and try something and let it build an app that you like.

1179
01:20:07,555 --> 01:20:21,735
And then you can just like, once it starts to build like a framework around and shows, look, let's say you say, let's build a marketplace where I can put like where I can sell objects for my neighborhood or something like that.

1180
01:20:21,775 --> 01:20:29,395
And it will make a website for you where you can like list objects and then communicate with those who are interested in buying them, for example.

1181
01:20:29,535 --> 01:20:29,695
Right.

1182
01:20:30,475 --> 01:20:32,515
So it will be able to do that at this point.

1183
01:20:32,595 --> 01:20:35,715
You can do that without knowing a single line how to code.

1184
01:20:35,715 --> 01:20:42,975
for a project as complex as bichat that's like more on the complicated side

1185
01:20:42,975 --> 01:20:52,015
you can get away like you can do 95 percent 90 percent of the work without even looking at the

1186
01:20:52,015 --> 01:20:59,335
code but at some point things are at this point at least the ais aren't there yet that they still

1187
01:20:59,335 --> 01:21:05,835
need someone to hold their hands so as a coder who's been coding for a very long time just without

1188
01:21:05,835 --> 01:21:12,775
ais and you know knows i kind of know what i'm doing um it becomes like you you you change your

1189
01:21:12,775 --> 01:21:19,535
role from being a developer into a project manager where you you're talking to the ai as if it's a

1190
01:21:19,535 --> 01:21:25,675
programmer and you can even larp a project like we're working on this project and it's supposed

1191
01:21:25,675 --> 01:21:32,095
to be great and like i want it to be super stable and easy to use and it should you know it has these

1192
01:21:32,095 --> 01:21:38,395
requirements and then you say like make a detailed plan of how you would approach this and you can

1193
01:21:38,395 --> 01:21:43,135
just generate a very detailed plan like in a project that you would do in a software startup

1194
01:21:43,135 --> 01:21:49,295
for example where it says like step one build like the framework of the app step two build the

1195
01:21:49,295 --> 01:21:57,155
interface step three talk to bluetooth step four find others step five implement dms step six

1196
01:21:57,155 --> 01:22:03,375
implement nostra so step by step by step by step you can spell out what the project should be and

1197
01:22:03,375 --> 01:22:08,215
you can take this long plan give it back to a give it back to the next day so what you do is like

1198
01:22:08,215 --> 01:22:13,115
you're managing multiple ais doing it you can choose one is better at planning the other one

1199
01:22:13,115 --> 01:22:17,715
is better at implementing and so on like you you gain more experience in doing that but yeah generally

1200
01:22:17,715 --> 01:22:22,695
speaking as a software developer i think like at this point like almost everyone understands if

1201
01:22:22,695 --> 01:22:27,975
you're not in this game right now then i mean i hope you'll have a job in five years because

1202
01:22:27,975 --> 01:22:34,695
it's the the most ironic part about the the uh evolution of ai right now is that we thought

1203
01:22:34,695 --> 01:22:39,475
it would replace the boring jobs yeah everybody was it was always meant to be the blue collar

1204
01:22:39,475 --> 01:22:45,075
workers that would get replaced yeah yeah it's a good good news uh your job has just gotten more

1205
01:22:45,075 --> 01:22:49,715
important than before the plumber is not getting replaced yes and i'm very happy for the plumber

1206
01:22:49,715 --> 01:22:56,595
on the contrary software developers around the world are kind of like you know are in a high

1207
01:22:56,595 --> 01:23:01,615
alert mode right now i hope most of them are is that if you are not on top of your game

1208
01:23:01,615 --> 01:23:09,035
and using ai to increase your own productivity by like 10x then you know you're falling behind

1209
01:23:09,035 --> 01:23:10,035
You're falling behind.

1210
01:23:10,515 --> 01:23:17,755
And the question for a company in a couple of years will be like, do I need 20 people

1211
01:23:17,755 --> 01:23:19,915
to build this app who don't use AI?

1212
01:23:20,255 --> 01:23:23,195
Or do I need three of them who use AI?

1213
01:23:23,595 --> 01:23:24,615
And that's already happening.

1214
01:23:25,135 --> 01:23:29,095
So yeah, you better get started if you haven't yet.

1215
01:23:29,635 --> 01:23:31,455
I really need to improve my website.

1216
01:23:31,755 --> 01:23:33,755
What AI tool do you use to do this?

1217
01:23:34,215 --> 01:23:35,355
There are many to choose from.

1218
01:23:35,355 --> 01:23:38,075
My favorite one is a goose from Block.

1219
01:23:39,035 --> 01:23:47,415
um that's a fully open source interface that's like a chat window on your computer and then the

1220
01:23:47,415 --> 01:23:51,975
good the nice thing about it is that it can talk to any lm provider that you want so you can get a

1221
01:23:51,975 --> 01:24:00,295
subscription with grog or gpt or entropic and you put your uh api keys in there and then it's it's

1222
01:24:00,295 --> 01:24:05,495
an agent so it's not just a text chat box like you know from chat gpt where it can like ask a

1223
01:24:05,495 --> 01:24:11,895
question get a response but it's an agent and that means that it can do things so it can it can

1224
01:24:11,895 --> 01:24:16,395
change things on your computer it can write files on your computer it can execute commands on your

1225
01:24:16,395 --> 01:24:22,235
computer so you're kind of giving it control over your computer and that's how it can just like

1226
01:24:22,235 --> 01:24:27,275
generate an entire website for you with a single command at this point they are so good that you

1227
01:24:27,275 --> 01:24:38,235
can say, build me a educational Bitcoin website for activists from Asia and explain how multisig

1228
01:24:38,235 --> 01:24:44,975
and coin joins work. Right. So that could be a prompt. I'm pretty sure with that prompt,

1229
01:24:44,975 --> 01:24:51,495
you could one shot a website that looks pretty good. That's insane. It's a, it's fucking cool to

1230
01:24:51,495 --> 01:24:55,355
see. Um, I'm so impressed with everything you've done, Kelly. You're like the most prolific dev in

1231
01:24:55,355 --> 01:25:00,535
Bitcoin right now. Can we close with one kind of big question? So I did a show with Odell

1232
01:25:00,535 --> 01:25:06,295
maybe three or four months ago now. And the whole thing was on like, is Bitcoin still freedom money?

1233
01:25:06,775 --> 01:25:10,615
And with taking into account like everything we've gone through today, do you think Bitcoin

1234
01:25:10,615 --> 01:25:17,895
is still freedom money? I absolutely do think that Bitcoin is freedom money. And the nice thing

1235
01:25:17,895 --> 01:25:25,335
about Bitcoin is that it does not depend so much on the interpretation of what Bitcoin is.

1236
01:25:25,955 --> 01:25:33,635
Bitcoin is just is. It has the properties that it has. And those don't change with, you know,

1237
01:25:33,635 --> 01:25:38,615
the bull market and the bear market or the suits coming in or the suits selling their

1238
01:25:38,615 --> 01:25:48,515
stash again or tornado cash and and and you know being indicted or not so bitcoin is a constant

1239
01:25:48,515 --> 01:25:54,675
so and because it has it still has the same properties that it had when satoshi invented

1240
01:25:54,675 --> 01:25:59,795
it which is it is decentralized it is uncontrollable it is unstoppable it is verifiable

1241
01:25:59,795 --> 01:26:06,615
and it's fair and everyone can have access to it without permission those things haven't changed

1242
01:26:06,615 --> 01:26:13,715
However, I want to say that Bitcoin also depends on the people who use it.

1243
01:26:14,475 --> 01:26:20,235
So as long as there are enough people who uphold these ideals, I think we're in a safe place.

1244
01:26:21,295 --> 01:26:31,635
But, you know, even for those who are just interested in the monetary value that Bitcoin brings them in the investment case and just, you know, the number going up.

1245
01:26:31,635 --> 01:26:34,295
I think

1246
01:26:34,295 --> 01:26:36,355
even that number go up

1247
01:26:36,355 --> 01:26:38,375
story depends on the

1248
01:26:38,375 --> 01:26:40,535
basis of these properties

1249
01:26:40,535 --> 01:26:41,095
that I said

1250
01:26:41,095 --> 01:26:44,615
if Bitcoin becomes just

1251
01:26:44,615 --> 01:26:45,535
like an

1252
01:26:45,535 --> 01:26:47,515
investment account

1253
01:26:47,515 --> 01:26:50,535
that where you

1254
01:26:50,535 --> 01:26:52,435
never make use of the properties

1255
01:26:52,435 --> 01:26:54,735
which is like permissionless

1256
01:26:54,735 --> 01:26:55,255
use of it

1257
01:26:55,255 --> 01:26:58,555
if all the Bitcoin in the world would be held

1258
01:26:58,555 --> 01:26:59,375
at the banks

1259
01:26:59,375 --> 01:27:07,115
and the only interaction that people have with Bitcoin is from an account where you don't control

1260
01:27:07,115 --> 01:27:15,235
the Bitcoin, then it will lose all of its interesting properties. Even the 21 million cap

1261
01:27:15,235 --> 01:27:20,775
is not worth anything if the underlying principles and the underlying properties are not met.

1262
01:27:20,775 --> 01:27:29,935
so the bitcoin i think you know the white paper says it it's peer-to-peer electronic cash

1263
01:27:29,935 --> 01:27:35,875
it's made for payments and it's made for individuals that use it at their own free will

1264
01:27:35,875 --> 01:27:45,415
so we we we cannot lose that mission from like we cannot lose sight of that mission and

1265
01:27:45,415 --> 01:27:51,455
And all the stories that we tell about Bitcoin on top of it all rely on this.

1266
01:27:52,035 --> 01:28:01,375
Luckily, it's one of the most resilient and most stable, most badass systems ever created in the history of the world.

1267
01:28:02,015 --> 01:28:04,235
So I'm not worried at all.

1268
01:28:05,055 --> 01:28:14,135
But it depends on people listening to this that understand what the value proposition is to drive this forward.

1269
01:28:14,135 --> 01:28:17,235
because no one is working on it except us.

1270
01:28:17,655 --> 01:28:20,055
It's not improving if we don't improve it.

1271
01:28:20,235 --> 01:28:21,815
It's not reaching more people

1272
01:28:21,815 --> 01:28:23,955
if we don't spread the message.

1273
01:28:24,575 --> 01:28:28,655
So we cannot depend on the people

1274
01:28:28,655 --> 01:28:31,435
who are just interested in the financial aspect of it.

1275
01:28:31,795 --> 01:28:33,615
That's not what makes Bitcoin great.

1276
01:28:34,375 --> 01:28:36,635
And 21 million of something that is useless

1277
01:28:36,635 --> 01:28:38,335
is not worth anything, right?

1278
01:28:38,335 --> 01:28:41,775
21 million of something that has these properties,

1279
01:28:41,995 --> 01:28:43,515
that is worth something, right?

1280
01:28:43,515 --> 01:28:53,295
So even if you're only interested in a financial use case, then you should think about how you can support the basis of that investment.

1281
01:28:54,095 --> 01:29:04,555
So support developers, support open source development, support all the foundations and organizations that support this open source movement.

1282
01:29:05,295 --> 01:29:10,755
Because those are the people that keep it alive and that give it the purpose that it has.

1283
01:29:10,755 --> 01:29:15,075
So we can just go forward for another 100 and another 1,000 years.

1284
01:29:15,915 --> 01:29:18,355
Maybe a more interesting way of framing that question is,

1285
01:29:18,735 --> 01:29:22,435
what percentage of Bitcoin users do you think will use Bitcoin as freedom money?

1286
01:29:25,115 --> 01:29:26,215
That's a good question.

1287
01:29:26,375 --> 01:29:31,275
I think right now, probably most people who are interfacing with Bitcoin

1288
01:29:31,275 --> 01:29:37,695
are using it in a way where they do not control the Bitcoin itself.

1289
01:29:37,695 --> 01:29:47,235
so most people most people have bitcoin on on an exchange account but also the number of people who

1290
01:29:47,235 --> 01:29:54,635
don't have an exchange account is increasing so i don't know the number but as long as there is a

1291
01:29:54,635 --> 01:29:59,875
healthy number of people that just you know keep running the nodes and keep verifying the network

1292
01:29:59,875 --> 01:30:02,615
and like give us hash rate to secure it,

1293
01:30:03,455 --> 01:30:06,815
then as long as that is given,

1294
01:30:07,635 --> 01:30:09,555
then everyone who uses Bitcoin

1295
01:30:09,555 --> 01:30:11,755
in a way that doesn't support its principles

1296
01:30:11,755 --> 01:30:14,895
still has the option to fall back.

1297
01:30:15,155 --> 01:30:17,635
So that's the most important part for me.

1298
01:30:18,115 --> 01:30:19,375
I'm not saying, you know,

1299
01:30:19,495 --> 01:30:22,015
I'm not moralizing that you're using Bitcoin wrong

1300
01:30:22,015 --> 01:30:23,155
and you're using Bitcoin right.

1301
01:30:23,335 --> 01:30:24,515
Just like, just use Bitcoin.

1302
01:30:24,775 --> 01:30:27,535
Like even the wrong way of using Bitcoin

1303
01:30:27,535 --> 01:30:28,955
is already great.

1304
01:30:28,955 --> 01:30:36,695
but we as developers and the community and educators we need to remind people that you know

1305
01:30:36,695 --> 01:30:41,295
and make sure that also the institutions and organizations who manage bitcoin for others

1306
01:30:41,295 --> 01:30:47,455
respect these principles is that they can withdraw their bitcoin from a from a exchange account you

1307
01:30:47,455 --> 01:30:52,795
can put it in your cold storage and that also i mean it has many technical dimensions we need to

1308
01:30:52,795 --> 01:30:58,355
scale bitcoin we need to be able to provide like faster transactions and cheaper transactions for

1309
01:30:58,355 --> 01:31:00,335
the increasing number of people using Bitcoin.

1310
01:31:01,095 --> 01:31:04,815
So the most important part is that there's always an exit

1311
01:31:04,815 --> 01:31:08,515
from the permission system into the permissionless world.

1312
01:31:09,495 --> 01:31:12,755
And yeah, so I think there's a significant number

1313
01:31:12,755 --> 01:31:14,215
of people that make use of that.

1314
01:31:14,915 --> 01:31:18,135
And, you know, I'm not too worried

1315
01:31:18,135 --> 01:31:19,775
that we're in a bad place.

1316
01:31:20,395 --> 01:31:22,095
Well, Kali, man, this has been amazing.

1317
01:31:22,275 --> 01:31:24,355
I think as Bitcoiners, we're very lucky to have you.

1318
01:31:24,455 --> 01:31:25,995
So thank you for giving me the time, man.

1319
01:31:26,355 --> 01:31:26,895
Thank you, Danny.

1320
01:31:26,895 --> 01:31:32,195
Oh, actually, before we go, first of all, everyone should go try out eCache, try out Nostra.

1321
01:31:32,415 --> 01:31:33,515
But where do you want to send anyone?

1322
01:31:33,595 --> 01:31:36,375
Where can they find out more about you and Cashew and everything you're doing?

1323
01:31:36,475 --> 01:31:38,195
You can go to cashew.space.

1324
01:31:38,535 --> 01:31:40,295
You'll find a lot of information.

1325
01:31:40,555 --> 01:31:42,875
If you're a user, you can find applications that you want to use.

1326
01:31:43,115 --> 01:31:46,095
If you're a developer, then you'll find ways to contribute.

1327
01:31:47,195 --> 01:31:50,695
You can find me on Nostra and on Twitter, but you'll find me.

1328
01:31:50,775 --> 01:31:51,755
That's not the interesting part.

1329
01:31:53,155 --> 01:31:54,435
I'll just say, like, whatever.

1330
01:31:54,435 --> 01:31:58,275
if you're i want to talk to the software developers if you're a software developer

1331
01:31:58,275 --> 01:32:02,655
you're working in a company and you feel like your your job is shit it doesn't give you fulfillment

1332
01:32:02,655 --> 01:32:06,455
and you're like you're always thinking of how could i change the situation i'm in

1333
01:32:06,455 --> 01:32:11,395
the bitcoin space literally needs you like we need more people working on bitcoin and improving

1334
01:32:11,395 --> 01:32:17,575
bitcoin so please consider it open source is now viable we never had a system where the system can

1335
01:32:17,575 --> 01:32:24,015
fund itself from the inside so join bitcoin and contribute to bitcoin put some effort into

1336
01:32:24,015 --> 01:32:30,235
improving Bitcoin. And I can assure you, you will have the most amazing experience because

1337
01:32:30,235 --> 01:32:34,695
the open source world is there and it's waiting for your contribution. So please join us.

1338
01:32:35,195 --> 01:32:37,995
Work on Cashew. If you're not interested in Cashew, just on the broadcast,

1339
01:32:38,047 --> 01:32:40,467
Bitcoin ecosystem, join us.

1340
01:32:40,587 --> 01:32:41,787
And if you talk to me directly,

1341
01:32:41,847 --> 01:32:43,247
I'll hold your hand and show you around.

1342
01:32:43,587 --> 01:32:46,207
So whatever we can do to increase

1343
01:32:46,207 --> 01:32:48,407
the number of developers and the support that we get,

1344
01:32:49,047 --> 01:32:51,327
I'll do my best to help with that.

1345
01:32:51,527 --> 01:32:51,927
Let's go.

1346
01:32:52,127 --> 01:32:52,407
All right.

1347
01:32:52,447 --> 01:32:52,947
Thank you, Kali.

1348
01:32:53,027 --> 01:32:53,607
Appreciate you, man.

1349
01:32:53,847 --> 01:32:54,507
Appreciate you too.

1350
01:33:08,047 --> 01:33:38,027
Thank you.