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They can't see. The moment they're spending right now is the most important thing.

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An abundance that we can't even imagine because we can't see what's not there.

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You won't even be able to keep up with the rate of change.

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You'd expect the centralized system to attack this everywhere.

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You're going to see supply chain shortages. You're going to see inflation like crazy.

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Then there's going to be printing into that.

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Because if there isn't printing into that, there's going to be a deflationary collapse that destroys all money.

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If what you're saying is right and we're entering this sort of super chaotic period, is the only thing to do hold Bitcoin?

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If you haven't done the work to understand this and you're trusting somebody else and you don't have agency, then you're likely to get annihilated.

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But the point here is you have a choice.

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You've been deceived your entire life.

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You don't want to believe it.

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It gets easier when you face the truth.

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All right, Jeff, my roommate in Costa Rica, you're back on the show.

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When we were in Costa Rica, we had a few conversations that I think opened my eyes to the way you view the world.

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And the analogy that I've come to is, you know that scene in The Matrix where Neo sees like the green code for the first time.

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And he's like, what, you just look at code?

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And the other guy's like, oh, no, I don't see code.

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That's like blonde, brunette, redhead.

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that's like how i view your thesis like when i i see the world i'm a bitcoiner i live on a bitcoin

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standard i totally understand everything you say in your argument but i struggle to just naturally

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see the world that way um whereas you seem to see the world and everything fits into your thesis

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like how do you get to that point um that's a big question and i think before i go there i would say

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most people see the world and everything fits under their thesis and it reflects back to them

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and they're completely convinced that they're right and and they can't see other people's

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view because their their their their reflection of the world is is true to them so you probably

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heard me say before many times that our reflection of the world is us, right? The world we observe

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is literally a reflection of our thoughts, reactions, and we create that too.

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And so when I say that, some people think that, okay, that's true for Jeff, but it's not true

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for me. But I didn't say it's true for me. I said it's true for every single person.

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So, so your construct of what reality is to you is true for you and, and you will make it true. You will, you will sort information to make it true. You will, you will ensure that that view cannot be distorted.

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and it'd be other people's problem.

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And when you look around the world

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and you look at everybody else viewing the world

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and how could they think the world looks like that?

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And you think they're like completely crazy?

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If you realize the entire world looks like that,

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then you must be subject to the same thing.

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So then how would you know?

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So how would I know that my view of reality or what I call reality is true for me?

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And I would need an outside objective measure because it's not true, true.

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It's a belief system that feeds back on itself.

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So how would I know my belief system is right for me?

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is probably, that takes us, that could take us down a crazy journey.

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And one of the things I constantly think about in my own journey to this,

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and we'll go into Bitcoin and what, so, but if everyone else believes their truth

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unconditionally and they'll push back and they'll fight people and they'll so sure,

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then and they're only human then wouldn't that mean that i would be subject to the same thing

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and so how would i know i spend a lot of time on i spend a lot of time in how would i know what is

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actually the sand down to the sand what is true for sure um and then and then how do i reconstruct

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my actions and reality from that truth for sure. And I'm constantly challenging those assumptions

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as well. So I know that's probably a different answer than you were looking for. And now we can

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take that into why I wrote the book, what Bitcoin is to me, what that looks like to me. But I think

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that's the fundamental thing. I wonder, I'm constantly curious, if we live in this matrix

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of all of these ideas bouncing into each other, and I'm a construct of a whole bunch of ideas of

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people that touched me in my life that have changed me. In other words, those people are in me.

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what's already in me, and I believe a certain version of the world,

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and then until I don't, and then it changes, and I'm different,

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then that means that those intersections of people touching me

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impact me in a big way.

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And then you watch other people have the same interactions,

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but nothing changes in their life.

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their belief system just carries on and and what could be a zero to one moment and have

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something that totally changed they're so they're so dealing in their past reality is their reality

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that they can't see that the moment in front of them the moment they're spending right now is the

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most important thing so they don't never see the change that could change everything in the future

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and they continue to stay in a very narrow path of a belief system.

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So there's a load in there that I want to dig into.

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But the first one, you said everyone believes their own truth.

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And I agree with that, but I don't know if everyone has thought as deeply as you have about this.

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So for all the people that are still supporting and living within the current system that we have,

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I don't think they're necessarily viewing that as the right thing to do or the good thing to do.

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I think they're just seeing it as this is the way it is.

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And what I've never fully got is like what has to change for that to change?

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Yeah, and that's why, so this is all of us in every single 8 billion people on the planet.

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So if there are 8 billion people on the planet going through a structural change, and most people were fighting that structural change because of their own beliefs from past biases, then the expectation would be this would be really hard.

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because most of the people, and it would be really noisy,

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because most of the people were feeding back against the system

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that they said they hated and using the exact same money

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that they said they hated to increase the power of the state

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and the system over them.

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And what they would find is they would find always somebody else.

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They would find Candace Owens.

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They would find Tucker Carlson.

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They would find good people yelling at the system, but with no solution to the system.

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And so they would find themselves in this hate, right?

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That they didn't know that they were creating because they were using the same money that funded it all.

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and they would find belonging in that hate.

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They would find, I know more than those other people,

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those stupid other people.

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And it would feel like love.

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It would feel like belonging.

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It would feel like I know something that the rest of the people don't do.

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And that would expand everywhere

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while using the exact same money that funds the entire thing.

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and and and when i look at when i look at that i totally understand it's natural it's what people

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do um i but but i wonder why i wonder i wonder if you if you can't solve the problem

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what are you doing right so what are what are you doing to actually solve the problem

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And what, because what it's actually saying is in all of those versions of their realities is somebody else will save me instead of I have agency.

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Every single other version says somebody else is to blame.

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But by the way, we would easily see, we would easily see in a world that looked like this, we would easily not see our own agency.

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And we would easily see that we would be led to believe from that same system that it's not you, it's somebody else.

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And we would want to believe that because it couldn't be us.

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Because everything is downstream of money,

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is it possible to have agency without Bitcoin?

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So that's actually why I don't think so.

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So, you know, I've started, and why I continually start with, here's the thing that I feel like even with you, right, in Costa Rica is talking, but in, like, we're good friends.

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You inspire me in this space.

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there's so many people who have different views and everything else that same similar to to that

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make me smarter in this space either or try to clarify what i'm saying to bring it tighter and

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tighter and something that's so obvious to me that uh but but when i watch this space evolve

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right and i and i and i and i try to put simple language to something that's really complex um

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when I start with the natural state of the free market is deflation.

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People laugh at that because I say it over and over and over again.

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And you're smiling now.

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But if you think of the magnitude of those, what is it, seven words,

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what they actually mean to every other nonsense that you've ever heard

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and that you choose.

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So when I say that, I mean, entrepreneurs have to, whether you're working for an entrepreneur, you're working for a new business, or you're an entrepreneur, in the free market, you have to create more value for somebody else to get paid.

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If you don't, the company fails.

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Why does a company fail?

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Because us as users, us as purchasers of the product or service, demand more value.

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So how could those two things, right?

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You have to create more value than what was there before, and we use more value.

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how could those two things in a free market not produce more value it's it and why i try to

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drive into this so carefully is because it has to and people can hear these words and you've heard

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these words and you smile at these words without thinking about the repercussions of the world

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the imaginary world that you've always lived in that looks nothing like i just described

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And so if you had one, the natural state of the free market is deflation, you had two, our ideas move exponentially to create more value, then three, you would expect exponential deflation or prices falling or value increasing for humanity.

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four you would expect with ai where it's going every single person to be able to contribute

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to humanity and accelerate that curve and you would expect an abundance that we can't even

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imagine because we can't see what's not there we can't even measure what's not there we measure

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from the other system so but if those things are true and they are most certainly true

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If those things are true, then the entire nonsense, everything we've been taught about economics, every single other thing means we lose our agency to somebody else's agency.

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We, everything is, and we trust the economists, we trust Trump, we trust Biden, we trust, somebody else always has to be the person that we trust because we don't live in a free market.

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And so it's actually really simple. It's really simple. Now, the only question now, the next question, a derivative of that question, can Bitcoin withstand all of our nonsense actions trying to stop it?

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That was going to be exactly my next question because there's never been a time in history where Bitcoin has been more ingrained in the old financial system.

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And can it remain a free market?

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So then to that degree, what you would have to do, and this is where I've spent a lot of time, a lot of time.

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Why would I believe it does?

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And I'm going to talk about this in my speech in Vegas.

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But why I believe it does is because of people like you.

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And I mean that actually very seriously because of people like you that are bringing this to other people, even if you didn't know it all the way to the sand.

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Right But um and and and not just you but all of the others that I meet every day who are who know this as a protocol emerging in layers and are building on a protocol And if you added up all of those people it might only be 10 people

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Many of them private for most of the nonsense.

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But building protocol technology in service of humankind that is the free market and protecting it.

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And what would you expect?

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you'd expect the centralized system to attack this everywhere but and and so if there were

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10 000 people like let's call it 10 000 and there's probably 10 000 it might even be be more but you

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have to assume some of those 10 000 people will sell for pieces of paper and go back to the other

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system right so um and they'll be replaced with more and more people that are understanding this

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and developing in as this changes,

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then those 10,000 people are against,

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not against, but are building the future.

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Their actions are building the future

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that 8 billion people don't know yet.

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And so if you looked at the market at any given time,

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the expectation would be the noise

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of all of these other people with their own observations

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of what Bitcoin is to them or what money is to them

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or who should be in charge of money.

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All of those people would drown out these people.

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But they wouldn't drown out these people inside that bubble.

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And so what I live in every day is circular economies,

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expansion, a network effect on Bitcoin that is like, it's just, it's so incredible.

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What I live in is, and I recognize that for somebody observing the system without living

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like I do, investing in these companies, investing in these people, seeing who these people were,

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and they're never going back, no matter what. If I didn't, if I wasn't here, I can imagine what

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they would think about what this looked like. So now how do I know I'm right? If they all think

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they're right inside a system that has to steal their money to be able to, and they stay in it,

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how could I know I'm right? And why I know I'm right is objectively, I'm watching more and more

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people build this. I'm watching more and more layers being built on top of Bitcoin. I'm watching

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prices relative to Bitcoin fall exactly as I would expect them to fall. Not that all the risks don't

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exist because if all of these people stopped tomorrow and said, ah, nice experiment, let's go

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back, then Bitcoin wouldn't be a thing. This is why, like, one of the things I've said over and

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over again is Bitcoin without the freedom money aspect isn't interesting to me. And this is exactly

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why. And to get back to your point a little earlier, you said like the people that aren't

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going to leave Bitcoin. This is a thing that I say over and over again. It's like people ask you

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when you're going to sell Bitcoin. And I'm like, sell it for what? I'm not going to sell it for

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more dollars, that's for sure. But the thing that I will do at some point is sell it to buy my family

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a nice house. And does that reinforce the old system? Because when I do that, I'm going to do

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it with as big a mortgage as possible to basically short the fiat system with the housing market.

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And is that not a reinforcement of that system?

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So why do houses have as much value as they have?

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They have as much value as they have because money is broken, right?

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Yeah.

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And so when you decide to make that, so I've told this story many times, right?

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My house five, six years ago was 300 Bitcoin.

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Now it's 15 Bitcoin.

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So pretend I don't have a house and I have 300 Bitcoin.

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then I can choose when to buy that house,

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and I can buy it for one Bitcoin if I want to hold off,

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or I can buy it for 15 Bitcoin,

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or I can put a mortgage down and buy it for one Bitcoin

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and have a mortgage.

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All of these are free choices,

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as this new system imposes discipline around the other.

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And each choice has repercussions.

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So when you buy a house, you're choosing to buy now for your lifestyle of your family, which is totally fine.

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Which was meaning you're going to distribute your Bitcoin to other people.

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And other people are going to take them and then buy a house later for less Bitcoin.

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And it's just part of the evolution of this thing repricing the entire world.

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that has to look like this. And each of our choices in a free market, when we want value,

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when we decide that this is the right price for us, is part of those choices.

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But you are kind of propping up the debt Ponzi for a period of time though, while this happens.

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So let's change that subject or tackle this from a different way. In the next little while

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in the economy,

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you're going to see supply chain shortages,

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you're going to see inflation like crazy,

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you're going to see crazy,

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and then there's going to be printing into that.

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Because if there isn't printing into that,

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there's going to be a deflationary collapse

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from money that can't allow deflation

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that destroys all money.

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And so there is going to be,

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and it's likely an order of magnitude higher

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than what COVID was.

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as that happens and pushes prices up like crazy at the same time as jobs are leaving the market

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because the businesses the businesses have to use ai to get you to use their system to remove the job

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because if they don't um you won't use their system because you won't have the money so you're

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going to create so you're going to create this inflationary pulse massive inflationary pulse

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There's going to be food insecurity. There's going to be uprisings all over the world and everything else because fertilizers are also going up in price. And all of these inputs are going up in price. At the same time, there's going to be massive printing to save the financial system.

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at that time at that time that inflation is going to cause um demand destruction

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right because people won't be able to afford it their jobs and what they get paid especially in

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00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:53,990
the businesses that pay them that are going to have to shed that there's going to be massive

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demand destruction and it's going to collapse in a deflationary spiral so now let's say and so

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these things, if you look back into Weimar Germany, as it was going through this, you see this chart

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that goes up and down and up and down, and it flushes people up and down and down. We're used

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to living in stability. But when it looks like that, and we think we're outsmarting the market,

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we're going to take massive leverage at the time, thinking it's going to be devalued,

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and then it's going to go into deflation, and we're going to owe the leverage, and we're going

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it wiped out. So a lot of people inside of this system, and it has nothing to do with Bitcoin,

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zero to do with Bitcoin, that this is happening. It has to do with money being debased at a crazy

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rate and physics coming due, right? And the free market coming due and a realization that we live

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in a nonsensical world that is more and more controlled.

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And this is going to create psychological breaks everywhere too in people

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because they're not going to be ready.

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They're thinking they're living in a normal world

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that's always looked this way.

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And it's not going to look that way.

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And so let's say now you, Danny, take this

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and take a huge mortgage, Bitcoin, at this time,

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And then mortgage rates go way up at the wrong time.

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And what does that do to you when you think you played the game properly?

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So from the other system, which is growing in instability and has to do a certain number of things,

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which have second order consequences to people and third order consequences to people,

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00:26:44,030 --> 00:26:50,690
and those people change what they think from that, you can expect this crazy chaos.

293
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Or you could just hold your Bitcoin.

294
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Just stay in stability.

295
00:26:57,730 --> 00:27:04,510
Yeah, and no matter what side of it, you're going to win.

296
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Now, we look back to fonder times and say, I want a family home.

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I want it to look like that.

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I want a white picket fence with the kids and everything else.

299
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In the next little while in where we're going, it's unlikely to look like the past 30 years, past 40 years.

300
00:27:25,130 --> 00:27:32,050
It was a construct out of manipulated money that felt right.

301
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:34,490
And that construct is going to break down.

302
00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:35,590
and so

303
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:36,150
so

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00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:36,970
so

305
00:27:36,970 --> 00:27:38,750
so all of these

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individual choices

307
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including in bitcoin

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00:27:41,310 --> 00:27:42,350
right

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00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:43,810
are going to long

310
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for those times

311
00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:46,030
and make choices

312
00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:46,830
and they're going to sell

313
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:47,290
their bitcoin

314
00:27:47,290 --> 00:27:47,850
and then

315
00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:49,310
many people will sell

316
00:27:49,310 --> 00:27:50,010
all their bitcoin

317
00:27:50,010 --> 00:27:51,090
for the pieces of paper

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00:27:51,090 --> 00:27:52,850
then it will go to zero

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00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:54,830
and

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all they'll do

321
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:56,910
is distribute their bitcoin

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00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:57,430
if you just

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00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:58,610
stay with

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00:27:58,610 --> 00:27:59,750
the natural state

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00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:00,370
of the free market

326
00:28:00,370 --> 00:28:01,030
is deflation

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00:28:01,030 --> 00:28:03,690
exponentially

328
00:28:03,690 --> 00:28:10,290
exponential technology gains should mean exponential deflation or prices falling or

329
00:28:10,290 --> 00:28:18,590
abundance if bitcoin stayed decentralized and secure it is measuring that and just stay there

330
00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:25,510
everything else is uh everything else the problem and what you're doing and house the question too

331
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:32,450
what you're doing is an emotional need to what does security look like and family look like to you

332
00:28:32,450 --> 00:28:40,050
tied to an old system wanting that wanting that to be true but it's no longer but but it's it's

333
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:44,370
less and less true if what you're saying is right and we're entering this

334
00:28:44,370 --> 00:28:52,210
sort of super chaotic period is the only thing to do hold bitcoin so it so that would be so

335
00:28:52,210 --> 00:28:59,690
imagine you so now that's an entirely different vector you just hold bitcoin um you don't spend it

336
00:28:59,690 --> 00:29:08,130
If you just held Bitcoin and didn't spend it, and it looked like that, then Bitcoin would get centralized, just like people held gold.

337
00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:12,110
And they used a monetary system that they knew was always broken.

338
00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:18,890
And why they needed an asset underpinning the monetary system is because the monetary system was broken.

339
00:29:20,270 --> 00:29:28,690
And so Bitcoin is different in that way, in that you don't need an asset underneath the monetary system because the money isn't broken.

340
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:49,630
The money itself is the network and you can store your money in money without having to store it in a piece of paper tied to a broken monetary system. So that change is another huge change in our perspective of what reality looks like.

341
00:29:49,630 --> 00:30:11,210
Now, in Bitcoin, you have a whole camp of people talking about digital credit and what that would look like. You have an entire camp of people that believe that this is the strongest asset in the world, but it's not money. It's credit.

342
00:30:11,950 --> 00:30:13,150
Well, what is credit?

343
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:15,670
Credit is loaned into existence from nothing.

344
00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:18,270
So if you had the strongest asset in the world

345
00:30:18,270 --> 00:30:21,710
and you had this credit that was loaned into existence for nothing,

346
00:30:22,450 --> 00:30:26,630
then most people would centralize their Bitcoin

347
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:30,630
just like they centralize gold.

348
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:37,230
And you would have this nonsense system of broken money on top of gold.

349
00:30:37,370 --> 00:30:39,530
And then what would happen eventually is gold would break.

350
00:30:40,050 --> 00:30:41,070
You'd reprice gold.

351
00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:56,570
And so we can expect, if we look back at history and we know human nature, we can expect these things to happen. We can expect lots of people to be fooled, just like they were in FTX, just like they were in some of these others, and like they will be again.

352
00:30:56,570 --> 00:31:04,090
we can expect tons of people to go into etfs trusting somebody else removing their own agency

353
00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:10,290
and and and trusting somebody else to get a higher yield

354
00:31:10,290 --> 00:31:17,950
um and and if if bitcoin all look like that if it looked like that it won't

355
00:31:17,950 --> 00:31:25,410
um but if it all looked like that it would fail so like you're obviously talking about sailor there

356
00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:28,050
I want to be careful

357
00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:30,330
of this because I can

358
00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:32,290
coexist in a world that I like

359
00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:34,270
Saylor I think he's good for

360
00:31:34,270 --> 00:31:36,330
Bitcoin I think he does a lot of great

361
00:31:36,330 --> 00:31:37,570
things I actually like the

362
00:31:37,570 --> 00:31:40,290
investor in the business at least in my

363
00:31:40,290 --> 00:31:42,110
RRSP investor in the business

364
00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:43,050
but

365
00:31:43,050 --> 00:31:45,610
think he's brilliant

366
00:31:45,610 --> 00:31:48,290
but also disagree with him

367
00:31:48,290 --> 00:31:49,610
on a fundamental premise

368
00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:50,510
of

369
00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:54,290
and he can be right

370
00:31:54,290 --> 00:31:55,150
for a long time

371
00:31:55,150 --> 00:31:59,490
he can actually be, he can consolidate a lot of Bitcoin

372
00:31:59,490 --> 00:32:04,270
by telling the world that it's just an asset.

373
00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:10,930
But that is fundamentally different than it is money

374
00:32:10,930 --> 00:32:13,010
and it is used as money.

375
00:32:13,650 --> 00:32:16,550
And so I can like him.

376
00:32:16,550 --> 00:32:19,210
I can think he's really smart.

377
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:22,050
I can see a lot of things that he does that are well for this.

378
00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:35,710
And I can disagree with him that I believe it's a protocol and the protocol is emerging as money and privacy and everything else. It's a new internet protocol.

379
00:32:35,710 --> 00:32:44,950
So, and so, and I, that's why I want to be careful of the creating an us versus them and everything.

380
00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:50,490
Cause it is really easy to bite and say, yeah, he's terrible and everything else.

381
00:32:50,490 --> 00:33:00,090
He's done a lot of great things for Bitcoin and a whole bunch of people that have understood his actions in Bitcoin will then in turn understand it's a protocol.

382
00:33:01,090 --> 00:33:03,370
Do you want to pay less in taxes and stack more Bitcoin?

383
00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:04,410
Of course you do.

384
00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:06,870
Well, by mining Bitcoin with Blockware, you can.

385
00:33:07,450 --> 00:33:09,750
Under section 168K of the US tax code,

386
00:33:10,050 --> 00:33:13,090
Bitcoin mining servers qualify for 100% bonus depreciation.

387
00:33:13,650 --> 00:33:17,550
This means every dollar you spend on miners can directly offset your income in a single year.

388
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:20,490
And that's true for both business owners and W2 earners.

389
00:33:20,910 --> 00:33:23,290
If you have $100,000 in ordinary income,

390
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:27,910
you can purchase $100,000 in miners and potentially offset your tax liability entirely.

391
00:33:28,830 --> 00:33:30,790
Blockware's mining as a service does all the heavy lifting.

392
00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:33,130
They secure the rigs, they source the low-cost power,

393
00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:34,690
and they handle all the day-to-day maintenance.

394
00:33:35,230 --> 00:33:37,290
So you get to stack Bitcoin every single day

395
00:33:37,290 --> 00:33:39,010
while drastically shrinking your tax bill.

396
00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:43,510
Get started today at blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD

397
00:33:43,510 --> 00:33:46,690
and use code WBD for $100 off your first miner.

398
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:50,490
That's blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD.

399
00:33:50,730 --> 00:33:52,470
If you haven't tried out Club Orange yet,

400
00:33:52,590 --> 00:33:53,510
then now is the time.

401
00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:55,450
It's my go-to place to find Bitcoiners

402
00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:56,430
whenever I'm traveling.

403
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:59,210
Club Orange is a social app built for Bitcoiners

404
00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:01,410
where you can find meetups and events in your area

405
00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:03,330
and find merchants that are accepting Bitcoin.

406
00:34:04,010 --> 00:34:06,070
There are over 19,000 Bitcoiners on there

407
00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:07,590
and whether you're at home or traveling,

408
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:09,750
it's a great place to keep in touch with Bitcoiners

409
00:34:09,750 --> 00:34:10,910
from all over the world.

410
00:34:11,590 --> 00:34:13,850
I've been using Club Orange since it was Orange Pill app

411
00:34:13,850 --> 00:34:14,890
and it really is awesome.

412
00:34:15,330 --> 00:34:17,230
So if you're on there, drop me a DM and say hi.

413
00:34:17,490 --> 00:34:19,510
And if you want to find out more and download the app,

414
00:34:19,670 --> 00:34:21,370
just search for Club Orange on your app store

415
00:34:21,370 --> 00:34:23,250
or go to cluborange.org.

416
00:34:23,490 --> 00:34:25,050
If you already self-custody Bitcoin,

417
00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:26,910
you know the deal with hardware wallets.

418
00:34:27,310 --> 00:34:29,030
Complex setups, clumsy interfaces

419
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:31,790
and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen or forgotten.

420
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:33,650
Well, BitKey fixes that.

421
00:34:34,170 --> 00:34:37,670
BitKey is a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square and Cash App.

422
00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:41,170
It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature

423
00:34:41,170 --> 00:34:45,110
into an intuitive, easy-to-use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over.

424
00:34:45,850 --> 00:34:48,810
It's simple, secure self-custody without the stress.

425
00:34:49,370 --> 00:34:51,910
And time named BitKey one of the best inventions of 2024.

426
00:34:52,870 --> 00:34:56,530
Get 20% off at bitkey.world when you use the code WBD.

427
00:34:56,530 --> 00:35:04,350
that's b-i-t-k-e-y dot world and use the code w-b-d so i like i agree with that sailor's

428
00:35:04,350 --> 00:35:10,070
clearly a genius um i think he's been good for bitcoin but i also would agree with you on the

429
00:35:10,070 --> 00:35:14,750
digital credit part but is there a world where that can be a dangerous narrative for bitcoin

430
00:35:14,750 --> 00:35:21,130
yes yes so so that digital credit narrative will get wiped out

431
00:35:21,130 --> 00:35:29,350
not might get wiped out it's it's binary an inflationary system

432
00:35:29,350 --> 00:35:37,070
is opposite from the free market an inflationary system must centralize

433
00:35:37,070 --> 00:35:46,160
if you using digital credit on top of bitcoin and trust somebody else with your keys it is being centralized

434
00:35:47,340 --> 00:35:52,360
And at some point that's going to create a chain fork in Bitcoin.

435
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:55,280
And one of those two, it's binary.

436
00:35:55,540 --> 00:35:57,280
One will win, one will not.

437
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,680
If you were the U.S. government and you were saying,

438
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:03,040
I need my U.S. dollars to be the strongest,

439
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:20,900
You would try to co-opt Bitcoin to using Tether and stable coins and everything else to concentrate other people so they don't hold their keys to concentrate enough Bitcoin.

440
00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:34,140
But the concentrating enough Bitcoin in sheer volume doesn't concentrate the nodes, doesn't concentrate the votes, doesn't concentrate the activity on Bitcoin.

441
00:36:34,860 --> 00:36:40,260
And so by doing that, you're taking massive risk by trusting somebody else with your keys.

442
00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:47,740
The is eventually has to stop, because the inflationary system has to stop the deflationary one.

443
00:36:47,740 --> 00:36:55,260
or said differently, the system of abuse or centralization that we've always lived in

444
00:36:55,260 --> 00:37:02,080
can't allow the free market. But the point here is you have a choice. Your actions determine the

445
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:10,680
choice. And what gives me so much confidence in my choice being the one that's going to resolve

446
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,540
and win is it's not alone.

447
00:37:13,940 --> 00:37:17,340
It's with thousands, tens of thousands of other people.

448
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,560
And most of those people are hardly even known.

449
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,360
And that's the number that goes up.

450
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:23,680
Their heart and soul of Bitcoin

451
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,680
and they're proving it with their actions every day.

452
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,620
And so when I watch what's happening there

453
00:37:29,620 --> 00:37:32,060
and the emergence of the protocol

454
00:37:32,060 --> 00:37:35,180
and developing privacy and everything else

455
00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:38,360
and money and circular economies

456
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,340
against what I would expect to happen

457
00:37:41,340 --> 00:37:43,980
with the vast majority of most people

458
00:37:43,980 --> 00:37:45,480
getting stuck in the old system.

459
00:37:46,740 --> 00:37:48,440
It's just, I expect it.

460
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:49,980
I completely expect it.

461
00:37:50,020 --> 00:37:50,940
I expect it to,

462
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,560
and then now if you're taking,

463
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:54,540
if you have,

464
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,000
if you don't hold your own coins,

465
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,840
if you don't hold your own keys,

466
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,040
if you haven't trusted,

467
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,300
if you haven't done the work to understand this

468
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:04,620
and you're trusting somebody else

469
00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:05,840
and you don't have agency,

470
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:14,180
then you're likely to get annihilated so when you say that digital credit can't survive

471
00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:18,160
does that mean you don't think strategy as a business model will survive

472
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,440
no i think i i think that that depending on how much uh

473
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:32,360
so so i think strategy as a business model could actually do extraordinarily well um and

474
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:40,500
And because we're so early in this change, but many others will get hurt along the way.

475
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:47,980
And strategy could get hurt if they're over-levered against a deflationary collapse.

476
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,400
At some point, they could get really hurt.

477
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,900
But I don't think they are over-levered.

478
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,880
I think what you're talking about, I think Saylor is brilliant.

479
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,540
I think he understands the game that is being played.

480
00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:06,400
He might not be able to, as a public company,

481
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:08,380
he might not be able to talk like I talk.

482
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,600
You're part of your public company

483
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,660
and you might get tapped on the shoulder and say,

484
00:39:15,820 --> 00:39:20,380
hey, and all of the people around,

485
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,400
you can't go against the US dollar.

486
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,100
I've always had that opinion.

487
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:31,180
I think Saylor has left the US dollar alone very purposefully.

488
00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:34,800
I don't know if he said that he doesn't think Bitcoin is a threat to the US dollar.

489
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,280
I don't know if he believes that or if that's just the line he has to toe.

490
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:42,600
Yeah, I would just say, keep going back to what I said in the beginning.

491
00:39:43,180 --> 00:39:44,960
Natural state of the free market is deflation.

492
00:39:45,740 --> 00:39:51,780
It means every single human being on the planet is working for you, trying to create value for you.

493
00:39:51,780 --> 00:39:58,060
if you take where ai is going and where it is today that means eight billion people can create

494
00:39:58,060 --> 00:40:03,940
new apps new technologies and attempt right now using the technology we have right now

495
00:40:03,940 --> 00:40:08,800
to collapse price and deliver you more value and you're only going to use the things that

496
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:17,220
deliver you more value so how in that world how possibly in that world could that be inflationary

497
00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:21,280
it's impossible

498
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,800
the free market is

499
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,360
massive abundance

500
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,580
delivered by you

501
00:40:28,580 --> 00:40:30,460
you choosing more value

502
00:40:30,460 --> 00:40:33,060
and the other system is a control system

503
00:40:33,060 --> 00:40:34,720
whether it's US dollar

504
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,240
yuan, everything else

505
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,000
and the emergence of the US

506
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,720
as the greatest nation

507
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:42,920
in the world was actually

508
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:43,620
the free market

509
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:47,220
if you look at in the 1800s

510
00:40:47,220 --> 00:40:49,080
you had something called the great deflation

511
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,000
and what it was

512
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:56,460
there's a whole bunch of people moving to the U.S. from these countries where they couldn't make it.

513
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:57,320
Yeah.

514
00:40:57,420 --> 00:41:05,080
So, their ideas could make it. And those ideas create the value. So, those ideas of creating

515
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:11,800
value for other people is the thing that creates value for all people. And the more you constrain

516
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:21,280
that so so let's go into a different vector of what we're talking about which is which is so if

517
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:26,220
you have an inflationary system that punishes people that most people can't contribute

518
00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:35,260
and you only very few people can contribute then all society suffers you know when you wrote this

519
00:41:35,260 --> 00:41:41,740
book um ai was obviously a pretty big part of it but i think the did the book come out in 2019 is

520
00:41:41,740 --> 00:41:47,800
that right yeah yeah so the it while it was a big part of the book there was not that much happening

521
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:54,280
in the ai space at that time like it was all very behind the scenes and then today like it's crazy

522
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,140
like the rate of change is unbelievable these are getting super powerful and only they're basically

523
00:41:59,140 --> 00:42:04,480
on like an exponential curve upwards does that speed up your timeline of when you think this

524
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,620
change will come no it's been the same timeline all along so when i wrote the book so so you

525
00:42:09,620 --> 00:42:15,500
remember in the book that i wrote about the paper folding and and i wrote it's like 50 folds get

526
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:22,620
you to the sun or whatever it is exactly but most most people guess two inches at 50 folds you can

527
00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:27,620
only fold a piece of paper seven times but if you could continue folding it it reaches from here to

528
00:42:27,620 --> 00:42:35,580
the sun and most people when i say most people 99.999 percent guess two inches um it means we

529
00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:42,220
can't understand exponentials but that um but what i what i wrote and i'm pretty sure i wrote

530
00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:49,820
exactly this in in the ai chapter that it's been the exact same rate since the 50s it's just the

531
00:42:49,820 --> 00:42:56,740
first fold created the first ai winter because the expectations were do everything and it did nothing

532
00:42:56,740 --> 00:43:03,980
and then there was another ai winter in the late 70s 80s and the expectation that now is the time

533
00:43:03,980 --> 00:43:08,040
and call it fold 15 or 16,

534
00:43:08,620 --> 00:43:10,540
that now is the time it's going to do everything.

535
00:43:11,060 --> 00:43:12,320
And then the fold just kept on,

536
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,500
now they're bigger steps.

537
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:15,060
But now what does that mean?

538
00:43:15,220 --> 00:43:16,220
So this is why,

539
00:43:16,860 --> 00:43:19,280
like nothing I wrote has changed

540
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:20,840
and nothing in the future,

541
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,820
you can see perfectly what's going to happen

542
00:43:22,820 --> 00:43:24,480
out of what I wrote then.

543
00:43:25,220 --> 00:43:28,100
This is the slowest by far

544
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:30,320
that AI is ever going to get.

545
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,140
And every day you hear something,

546
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:33,840
oh my God, Claude just removed,

547
00:43:33,980 --> 00:43:40,800
this now it's open source because it's now in Rust libraries that's yesterday and then DeepSeek

548
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,620
comes out and then this so it's every day you're going to hear these things and you won't even be

549
00:43:46,620 --> 00:43:52,940
able to keep up with the rate of change because it's moving at such a rate so the AI where you're

550
00:43:52,940 --> 00:44:00,320
using today is by far the worst it's ever going to be and that means that AI is going to be free

551
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:08,860
it's going to be abundant, it's going to be ubiquitous, and it's going to tie into physical

552
00:44:08,860 --> 00:44:13,840
goods too, robots and different physical goods that are going to do the same thing, create that

553
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:21,300
abundance in all of those jobs and such everywhere. It's inevitable, right? And that's what I wrote

554
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:27,600
about in my book. And you knew exactly where it'd be now. So nothing's changed. It hasn't

555
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,980
accelerate at all. It's exactly the same path I wrote about in my book and why you needed

556
00:44:31,980 --> 00:44:38,180
honest money because a debt-based system couldn't allow that deflation.

557
00:44:39,060 --> 00:44:42,220
You know, you say humans can't understand exponentials, which is like the first time

558
00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:48,660
I heard the paper analogy, I got it miles wrong. Do you understand? How do you see this?

559
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:55,140
So what I recognize is if every, I always ask myself, if everyone else is confused,

560
00:44:55,140 --> 00:45:02,980
I must be too. That's my starting position. So where might I be confused? Even when I wrote that,

561
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:11,380
and when I came up with the paper folding analogy for the book, and the same analogy

562
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:18,280
is the rice on the chessboard doubling. You've heard that one?

563
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,180
I don't know if I have heard that one.

564
00:45:19,180 --> 00:45:39,280
So it's an ancient story. Somebody tells the king of China, I will four X, I will each grain of rice. So you need to double a grain of rice on each chessboard piece and the grains of rice take over the entire kingdom.

565
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:46,400
right there's something so and um but you hear something like that you hear something you hear

566
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,980
exponential patterns and then your brain goes yeah i get it one nice trick what a cool story and then

567
00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:58,440
you go straight back into your linear life and so so these things that that i realize other people do

568
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:06,580
then i realize i must too and i work really hard to try to say to error correct that thing and and

569
00:46:06,580 --> 00:46:15,120
adjust my thinking for the thing that i'm not used to thinking so not perfect not uh but but

570
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:21,660
those when i see something when i observe something in everybody else i realize it must be in me too

571
00:46:21,660 --> 00:46:27,580
and when you say that like with the ai growth it's going to get to the point where you can't

572
00:46:27,580 --> 00:46:33,300
even keep up i feel that we're really close to that now we're past that now yeah and that's

573
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:38,400
obviously very linked to the sort of debt-based system that we live in because ai is going to be

574
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,940
hugely disruptive and earlier in the show you were talking about us going into this really chaotic

575
00:46:42,940 --> 00:46:49,120
time do you think this is the final sort of debt bubble debt cycle that we're going to go through

576
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,340
before something actually breaks and we have entirely different system on the other side

577
00:46:53,340 --> 00:46:54,700
yes

578
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:56,620
really good question

579
00:46:56,620 --> 00:46:58,320
I suspect not

580
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,800
and

581
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,500
it could be

582
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:03,680
when I say agency

583
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,840
let's just do a toy experiment

584
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,700
if everyone today

585
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:10,700
stopped using

586
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:12,480
pieces of paper

587
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:13,500
and used Bitcoin

588
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:15,260
if they knew what you knew

589
00:47:15,260 --> 00:47:16,840
and were actually living in Bitcoin

590
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,120
and building in this

591
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,540
how fast the world would move to abundance

592
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:22,760
would be

593
00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:24,660
It would take your breath away.

594
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,260
It would be so crazy.

595
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:28,880
There would be a repricing of everything.

596
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:31,920
It would be all in Bitcoin.

597
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:33,400
We're using Bitcoin.

598
00:47:33,540 --> 00:47:34,600
It would take your breath away.

599
00:47:35,180 --> 00:47:38,820
So then the question is to your thing,

600
00:47:39,220 --> 00:47:40,760
it has nothing to do with Bitcoin

601
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,740
because we know that's true.

602
00:47:44,060 --> 00:47:45,740
And we know we can make it stronger

603
00:47:45,740 --> 00:47:47,360
with our actions within it.

604
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,240
Yet we choose not to.

605
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:57,360
the vast majority of people have their agency giving their agency away and so it's not about

606
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:06,700
bitcoin it's about us and so what would be more likely if if what i said that somebody

607
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:12,680
and you can see this in other countries you can see a currency completely lose everything

608
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:19,220
complete reset people lose everything and then go back immediately to believing in that currency

609
00:48:19,220 --> 00:48:27,700
that's way more likely why like why does that happen what's the the sort of game theory behind

610
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:35,080
that so it happens because because we we don't want to look at first that we don't want to look

611
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:40,740
at these first principles like so what i talk about over and over and over again like i might

612
00:48:40,740 --> 00:48:47,120
say they they it's actually really simple you could explain economics to a five-year-old

613
00:48:47,120 --> 00:49:01,400
We compete to provide value to other people in the world, and we use the things that give us more value. That's it. That's it. There is no more to economics.

614
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,420
meaning everything the construction of our belief system

615
00:49:06,420 --> 00:49:11,480
inside those other people who are smarter than us

616
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:18,100
is is so wound it part of our psyche that we don't want to take our we don't want to claim our

617
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:23,860
own agency i don't i find it really hard to understand that mindset though like when i first

618
00:49:23,860 --> 00:49:30,340
got into bitcoin um it was almost like hearing a conspiracy theory in the sense that it was like

619
00:49:30,340 --> 00:49:36,580
everything that you think every way that you think the world works is actually wrong and but

620
00:49:36,580 --> 00:49:41,120
unlike other conspiracy theories it had an answer like bitcoin was the answer to this other system

621
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:46,200
um and as soon as i heard that i was like if you're telling me there's this asymmetric bet that i can

622
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:52,500
make that there's a ton of fraud and ponzi-like dynamics with the debt-based system then i'm going

623
00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:57,100
to take that bet every single day and i don't know how once the curtain gets pulled back people can

624
00:49:57,100 --> 00:50:04,500
still opt to live in that other system. I can't tell you why. I can just observe what is.

625
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:12,660
And if you looked around the world today, what do most people do? They live in that other system.

626
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:18,400
And they might hear this. I was just at lunch. I was just at lunch with people who've read my book

627
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:26,720
three times. And they said the exact same thing. I know it's true, but I'm spending all of my time

628
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:32,040
in the other system but it i guess it is hard to break out of but one of the things you've said a

629
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:38,080
few times in this is that you know it's true and i i believe that you know it's true but what

630
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:47,300
happened what has to happen for it to be like provably true so it's a so it's a really good

631
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:55,280
you know in bitcoin there's uh if you're intj entj it's a very small fraction of the population

632
00:50:55,280 --> 00:51:00,320
but it's a really high percentage of Bitcoiners.

633
00:51:01,340 --> 00:51:03,220
This is on the personality test thing.

634
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:04,220
Personality test.

635
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,660
I think it's because people that are that,

636
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:10,740
not that they're better or worse,

637
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,980
but they can handle an abstract concept.

638
00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:16,560
They can hold it and realize that

639
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,760
they in turn create reality of the new thing.

640
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,420
Where other people need to see the thing

641
00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:30,520
logically fitted in and it feeds back and everything else. So if you have this new,

642
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:37,020
new thing that's never existed before, that's really abstract and it's protocol emerging in

643
00:51:37,020 --> 00:51:42,900
layers and that has so many layers, then the people that are being most attracted to that

644
00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:50,040
new, new thing would be the people that would drive into, wait, how could the world look?

645
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,620
and what are my actions in creating the world to look like that?

646
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,640
And that wouldn't make the other people bad.

647
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:02,120
They would just need to see more and more evidence of that working.

648
00:52:02,540 --> 00:52:05,600
And there wouldn't be evidence because it was emergent.

649
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,940
It was emergent from the actions that people took.

650
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:12,660
And so I think that's why.

651
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:19,080
I think that we just have different strengths, weaknesses.

652
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,200
each person has different strengths or weaknesses,

653
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,560
and some people are more likely to grab onto something like this

654
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,820
that creates something totally different,

655
00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:36,620
and some people need to wait until it's proven in their minds.

656
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:42,320
And so what would that feel to people that are used to measuring

657
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:47,760
physical reality from proof, from a system designed against them?

658
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,120
It would be really chaotic, right?

659
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,340
Because this new thing would feel abstract.

660
00:52:53,540 --> 00:52:57,800
It would feel like what I'm talking about right now is word salad.

661
00:52:58,420 --> 00:53:04,160
They wouldn't be able to hold on to an abstract concept that was emerging.

662
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:18,620
They would hold on to, I have pieces of paper, and the government says they're real, and here's how GDP works, and everything that they believe from their system, they would hold on to that.

663
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:38,970
I remember when I don know a few maybe like a year ago Brandon Quitton put a thing on Twitter trying to get people to do that personality test and he was taking data of it And I was like oh I be different And so I did the test and yeah I was one of the two groups that basically every Bitcoin falls into Which is a really like that is strange that it has attracted that particular

664
00:53:38,970 --> 00:53:40,930
sort of personality type over others.

665
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:44,290
But one of the interesting things is that

666
00:53:44,290 --> 00:53:46,210
as you get more and more into Bitcoin,

667
00:53:47,290 --> 00:53:49,590
talking about the price becomes less of a talking point.

668
00:53:49,590 --> 00:53:52,290
No one really desperately wants to talk.

669
00:53:52,350 --> 00:53:53,150
Like when we meet up,

670
00:53:53,570 --> 00:53:55,150
how many times did we talk about the price of Bitcoin?

671
00:53:55,570 --> 00:53:55,950
Like zero.

672
00:53:55,950 --> 00:54:00,950
but like safe dean said something to me that i thought was really interesting when i had him on

673
00:54:00,950 --> 00:54:06,250
the show he he said that the price is the ultimate scoreboard because that's how we see how much

674
00:54:06,250 --> 00:54:12,610
we're winning if bitcoin goes to a million dollars is that your thesis proven out as you were right

675
00:54:12,610 --> 00:54:20,550
no no so but but again i i can totally accept somebody else's observation of what they think

676
00:54:20,550 --> 00:54:25,830
it is to win and have a different observation of what I think it looks like to win.

677
00:54:25,830 --> 00:54:37,490
When I think about, so let me talk about Saifedean, what he just said in the way that I would look at

678
00:54:37,490 --> 00:54:48,710
that. We know in Fiatland, prices are imagined. You print more money and house prices go up and

679
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:56,870
asset prices go up, but it's all an imaginary construct from infinite units that are able to

680
00:54:56,870 --> 00:55:01,690
be printed infinite. If you have infinite units pricing the world and you keep on printing those,

681
00:55:01,830 --> 00:55:08,210
all prices will rise. So house prices and everything else would rise. If you had non-infinite units in

682
00:55:08,210 --> 00:55:16,330
Bitcoin, then those will rise to against that dollar. And all of it will be, if you said pricing,

683
00:55:16,330 --> 00:55:22,930
will be kind of an illusion because it's based,

684
00:55:23,090 --> 00:55:26,710
that price based in US dollars is based on an infinite variable.

685
00:55:27,330 --> 00:55:31,290
If you said what should happen in a free market is prices fall

686
00:55:31,290 --> 00:55:36,670
of everything, and they might fall really fast

687
00:55:36,670 --> 00:55:41,350
because some of that money has already gone to money heaven.

688
00:55:42,370 --> 00:55:44,210
It's just been propped up, right?

689
00:55:44,210 --> 00:55:47,270
It's completely gone.

690
00:55:47,890 --> 00:55:51,350
And so some of those companies are going to fail spectacularly.

691
00:55:51,610 --> 00:55:52,790
They're going to be wiped out.

692
00:55:53,510 --> 00:56:08,750
But if you just looked at the trend, you could just say, if the natural state of the free market is deflation, and we know it is for sure, and if Bitcoin stayed decentralized and secure, it will price number one.

693
00:56:10,270 --> 00:56:11,350
No matter what.

694
00:56:12,030 --> 00:56:13,770
It will price the free market.

695
00:56:14,210 --> 00:56:18,250
And then if the free market is, now we don't live in a free market.

696
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:22,750
So there's all these crazy prices all over the places.

697
00:56:23,850 --> 00:56:29,690
And so some prices are going to fall like in a straight line.

698
00:56:30,650 --> 00:56:34,170
But over time anyways, this is going to reprice everything.

699
00:56:34,790 --> 00:56:36,770
If it stays decentralized and secure.

700
00:56:37,250 --> 00:56:40,630
And so I don't, that's why I don't think in price and fiat dollar.

701
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:46,630
because it takes Bitcoin into the denominator of something that's infinite

702
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:53,090
and tries to pull me back to the other system.

703
00:56:54,410 --> 00:56:57,710
I just think about goods and services priced in Bitcoin.

704
00:56:59,470 --> 00:57:00,610
Now, that's hard to do.

705
00:57:01,830 --> 00:57:07,090
It's almost like if you're the first time you've traveled a lot in the world,

706
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:09,050
when we went to Costa Rica,

707
00:57:09,050 --> 00:57:13,470
when you're changing your US dollars for cloning

708
00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:16,170
and you're trying to figure out

709
00:57:16,170 --> 00:57:18,290
what does this mean for goods and services

710
00:57:18,290 --> 00:57:19,150
and everything else

711
00:57:19,150 --> 00:57:23,090
it's a mental tax that you're constantly having to do

712
00:57:23,090 --> 00:57:24,550
it's the same thing in Bitcoin

713
00:57:24,550 --> 00:57:27,710
it's a mental tax because you're used to doing this

714
00:57:27,710 --> 00:57:31,210
and the mental tax and what is the value in Bitcoin

715
00:57:31,210 --> 00:57:34,070
and it's probably a harder mental tax

716
00:57:34,070 --> 00:57:36,290
because it's never existed before

717
00:57:36,290 --> 00:57:38,890
but that's what I try to

718
00:57:39,050 --> 00:57:45,290
constantly do try to constantly and and and what what would my expectation in the free market look

719
00:57:45,290 --> 00:57:51,530
like in bitcoin if it stayed decentralized and secure and and that's what i see that's what i

720
00:57:51,530 --> 00:57:59,270
observe i observe that happening around the world in the um i'm sure you saw elon musk talk about

721
00:57:59,270 --> 00:58:04,850
in the sort of ai world of the future we're not going to need money because as you say like the

722
00:58:04,850 --> 00:58:09,570
cost of everything drops to its marginal cost of production, like things might just be free and

723
00:58:09,570 --> 00:58:13,930
abundant. Do you think that's true? Do you think we will still need money?

724
00:58:15,970 --> 00:58:22,570
Very little. So a better way to look at it and imagine how complicated this is right now. And

725
00:58:22,570 --> 00:58:27,650
then somebody wants to make that complication. And typically when they do that, they're jumping,

726
00:58:27,650 --> 00:58:35,470
the shark and they say, like Elon Musk is not a Bitcoiner. Most of his money comes from government

727
00:58:35,470 --> 00:58:44,510
contracts and government. And subsidies. Subsidies and such. I'm not saying he's not a great

728
00:58:44,510 --> 00:58:50,890
entrepreneur or a great marketer or something. He clearly is, yeah. He clearly is. But if you

729
00:58:50,890 --> 00:58:57,550
actually understood what it would look like in a free market, prices would fall and he would

730
00:58:57,550 --> 00:59:07,870
have to compete broadly with everybody. And so it's illogical to me that you could say,

731
00:59:08,170 --> 00:59:16,530
we don't need money. Well, he uses money that's growing infinitely to create a crazy empire.

732
00:59:16,530 --> 00:59:20,290
Because what that means is he controls the means of production.

733
00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:25,290
and he controls the means of production

734
00:59:25,290 --> 00:59:26,870
and everybody operates on

735
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:29,330
or he does, Google does, Amazon does

736
00:59:29,330 --> 00:59:32,610
maybe in China a couple of other

737
00:59:32,610 --> 00:59:35,950
but the means of productions are controlled by the technocrats

738
00:59:35,950 --> 00:59:40,130
and we all use that and we can get shut off of that anytime

739
00:59:40,130 --> 00:59:43,630
and the means of

740
00:59:43,630 --> 00:59:46,870
why those are centralizing is because of money

741
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:51,310
so a free market looks

742
00:59:51,310 --> 00:59:54,010
different so to answer your question

743
00:59:54,010 --> 00:59:56,110
in the year 2140

744
00:59:56,110 --> 00:59:57,690
when Bitcoin mining

745
00:59:57,690 --> 00:59:59,690
when we've mined the last block

746
00:59:59,690 --> 01:00:04,190
would we ever go back to a time

747
01:00:04,190 --> 01:00:07,830
where we thought it was normal

748
01:00:07,830 --> 01:00:09,810
to manipulate money and that was normal

749
01:00:09,810 --> 01:00:12,030
nobody would ever make that choice

750
01:00:12,030 --> 01:00:14,190
it would be insane to make that choice

751
01:00:14,190 --> 01:00:29,710
So the thing we would use as money, not that we wouldn't still use an abstract concept of Bitcoin to base the free market, but you wouldn't feel like you needed it.

752
01:00:29,710 --> 01:00:47,830
You'd never go back to a time where, like, if we go to that point, if you just move forward, assuming Bitcoin stays decentralized and secure, and what that world looks like, can you imagine those people looking back at this timeline and saying, what were they thinking?

753
01:00:47,830 --> 01:00:54,190
how could they how could they trust all of those people that were extorting them

754
01:00:54,190 --> 01:01:04,270
and and constantly believe in that nonsense and and do more of it right we'd never go back

755
01:01:04,270 --> 01:01:11,570
have you ever read the mandibles this is the obligatory hat tip to odell um because in that

756
01:01:11,570 --> 01:01:16,450
you do kind of see in that book so this is a book about basically fiat collapse and then there's the

757
01:01:16,450 --> 01:01:23,870
free state of Nevada where they basically have zero tax and the whole point of the book is these

758
01:01:23,870 --> 01:01:28,410
people trying to go from New York to Nevada. When they get there, I think the last line of the book

759
01:01:28,410 --> 01:01:34,450
is and then they implemented like a 5% tax. Do you think there's no way that if we do move to this

760
01:01:34,450 --> 01:01:41,150
world, we don't end up very slowly moving back into a fiat type system? No, I don't think so.

761
01:01:41,150 --> 01:01:44,010
So, and that's chosen by us.

762
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:50,770
If we move just about all that way, if we move to it's just a store of value, then guaranteed that's what we do.

763
01:01:51,790 --> 01:01:52,530
For sure.

764
01:01:52,530 --> 01:02:03,610
But I don't think, and that's why this is going to be a chaotic transition, because I think all of these observations or truths in the market are true today equally.

765
01:02:04,070 --> 01:02:07,290
And each person is making one more true than the other.

766
01:02:07,290 --> 01:02:15,150
and so what's happening is at least from my observation is as you have a protocol that's

767
01:02:15,150 --> 01:02:19,890
emerging and it's adding privacy and it's adding payments and you have these circular economies

768
01:02:19,890 --> 01:02:27,010
growing and you have this emergence um those people just like us in costa rica we're not

769
01:02:27,010 --> 01:02:34,410
talking about price if you go back on on crypto twitter or bitcoin twitter it would look like

770
01:02:34,410 --> 01:02:41,510
everybody is. But those people don't at all. They're building something entirely new that's

771
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:48,270
totally different. They don't care. They're never going back. And they don't see it as just a store

772
01:02:48,270 --> 01:02:56,610
of value. They see it as money. And so, of course, it has to go through all of our belief systems,

773
01:02:56,610 --> 01:02:59,470
and only one's going to win.

774
01:03:00,930 --> 01:03:04,930
Last question on this sort of future Bitcoinized world

775
01:03:04,930 --> 01:03:08,490
is what do you think happens with credit markets?

776
01:03:08,850 --> 01:03:12,050
Because I don't believe you can ever get rid of credit.

777
01:03:12,450 --> 01:03:14,390
What would that look like in a Bitcoin world?

778
01:03:15,410 --> 01:03:18,350
Yeah, and a lot of your questions,

779
01:03:18,350 --> 01:03:21,690
actually most of these, even in the entire way,

780
01:03:22,070 --> 01:03:24,730
start from a credit-based system, which you're used to,

781
01:03:24,730 --> 01:03:28,850
and move into what does Bitcoin look like.

782
01:03:29,010 --> 01:03:31,630
If you want to know my simple,

783
01:03:32,090 --> 01:03:34,030
how I make it easy for myself,

784
01:03:34,570 --> 01:03:36,910
I start with first principles.

785
01:03:37,770 --> 01:03:39,470
Natural state of the free market is deflation.

786
01:03:40,110 --> 01:03:42,250
We have exponential technology growth

787
01:03:42,250 --> 01:03:44,390
from the free market.

788
01:03:45,070 --> 01:03:47,410
And if Bitcoin stayed decentralized and secure,

789
01:03:47,510 --> 01:03:49,950
you have an energy-backed system protocol

790
01:03:49,950 --> 01:03:51,910
emerging around the world.

791
01:03:52,010 --> 01:03:52,910
What would it look like?

792
01:03:52,910 --> 01:03:56,530
So I start from a different place than you start from.

793
01:03:57,130 --> 01:04:02,710
So what you're starting from is to buy a house, I need credit.

794
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:05,170
To start a business, I need credit.

795
01:04:05,850 --> 01:04:08,530
I start from a different point.

796
01:04:08,950 --> 01:04:10,750
Natural state of the free market is deflation.

797
01:04:10,970 --> 01:04:14,150
I invest in companies all the time, and I always have.

798
01:04:15,190 --> 01:04:20,210
And when I start a company, when I've started a company, I can never get credit.

799
01:04:20,210 --> 01:04:29,930
I have to get equity. Somebody has to believe in my view of the world is going to produce more

800
01:04:29,930 --> 01:04:35,490
return for me and them by delivering value to somebody else. No one gives you credit.

801
01:04:37,730 --> 01:04:44,810
And so I start from that spot. And so people say, well, there's no way business could survive.

802
01:04:44,810 --> 01:04:51,930
and I ask why that's the way the world looks right that's the way that's that's the way it

803
01:04:51,930 --> 01:04:58,170
looks right now so so what happens is credit gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller

804
01:04:58,170 --> 01:05:04,350
as a percentage of the overall economy today it is the economy because we live in credit-based

805
01:05:04,350 --> 01:05:09,730
money that is always manipulated and if you're if you're the biggest credit provider then you

806
01:05:09,730 --> 01:05:15,950
provide systematic risks. If you fail, the entire system fails. So government always bails out the

807
01:05:15,950 --> 01:05:23,050
largest credit providers. And so if you knew that and you were a credit provider,

808
01:05:23,870 --> 01:05:30,790
systematic, you would want to get as big as you could as fast as you could. So you had heads,

809
01:05:30,790 --> 01:05:38,210
I win, tails. Now that feeds back everywhere in the market. So if you're bidding on other

810
01:05:38,210 --> 01:05:45,010
companies, if you're a private equity company, and you can't lose, then if other people are going

811
01:05:45,010 --> 01:05:51,850
to bid four times for a company, you'd bid six because you always have somebody else to. And so

812
01:05:51,850 --> 01:06:01,030
it's a rational game to overpay when you have a backstop of credit money, which is more and more

813
01:06:01,030 --> 01:06:08,190
debt forever, and you can never lose. So all of these things that people's perception of what the

814
01:06:08,190 --> 01:06:14,910
what money looks like and debt looks like and that the prices because those are overbid

815
01:06:14,910 --> 01:06:24,190
and um seem so high you think you need more debt so and then the other part of that which is

816
01:06:24,190 --> 01:06:32,390
important is if you had productivity gains all the time and you take took debt then the debt

817
01:06:32,390 --> 01:06:39,130
gets more expensive in real terms. So if you took too much debt, the debt would fail.

818
01:06:40,670 --> 01:06:45,410
So I do, I could totally understand what you're saying there, but in this future world,

819
01:06:45,410 --> 01:06:49,930
if someone like everything's abundant, everything's marginal cost production,

820
01:06:50,070 --> 01:06:55,030
so very cheap, abundant world, there's still going to be people striving for things that they

821
01:06:55,030 --> 01:07:00,710
may not have the capital to do on their own. And so like, if you're a credit worthy person with an

822
01:07:00,710 --> 01:07:04,090
idea that you think you're going to add more value to society there's going to be people that are

823
01:07:04,090 --> 01:07:12,310
willing to back you in that and offer you credit like but how how does that work in this bitcoinized

824
01:07:12,310 --> 01:07:18,750
world yeah so what is so probably they offer you equity they want to be owners of your business

825
01:07:18,750 --> 01:07:24,610
with you if they believe in you it's not just credit out of thin air i just it's not just

826
01:07:24,610 --> 01:07:30,270
credit out of thin air and and the credit out of thin air the credit out of thin air

827
01:07:30,270 --> 01:07:36,550
on a Bitcoin standard will blow up if it's a Bitcoin standard.

828
01:07:36,970 --> 01:07:40,210
So the credit, it'll get less and less and less.

829
01:07:41,410 --> 01:07:43,890
So now, if you think about this,

830
01:07:44,010 --> 01:07:46,130
even the conversation we're having right now,

831
01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:50,010
I'll bet you most people that are listening to this right now go,

832
01:07:50,150 --> 01:07:54,310
that's insane because they're measuring it from the other system too.

833
01:07:54,310 --> 01:07:57,970
And they're used to living in a credit involvement that is unlimited credit.

834
01:07:57,970 --> 01:08:05,770
When we say $39 trillion, remember in my book I said in the last 20 years credit had grown $185 trillion?

835
01:08:07,830 --> 01:08:09,570
That was to 2019.

836
01:08:10,170 --> 01:08:11,830
That's more than double now.

837
01:08:12,770 --> 01:08:13,170
Crazy.

838
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:15,270
But it had to.

839
01:08:15,450 --> 01:08:20,810
It's mathematically because deflation is one side of the axis and the credit's the other.

840
01:08:21,690 --> 01:08:25,170
But what people don't realize is that's centralization.

841
01:08:26,170 --> 01:08:26,610
Right?

842
01:08:26,610 --> 01:08:42,510
That's centralization of everything. Why they see big tech, big government, and they're yelling at all of these centralized things is because it's mathematical. It's part of a system designed to extract. It has to.

843
01:08:42,510 --> 01:08:50,210
it's i i just wish i thought like you more jeff i'm getting there um i i always love talking to

844
01:08:50,210 --> 01:08:55,230
you let's close out with if there was one thing that you could say to all the listeners that

845
01:08:55,230 --> 01:09:01,470
helped them get a little bit closer to jeff booth's way of thinking like what is it i i i know

846
01:09:01,470 --> 01:09:05,050
i joke around about the kind of when i say the natural state of the free market is deflation

847
01:09:05,050 --> 01:09:11,090
but they should hold that thought in their head over and over and over again and if it's true

848
01:09:11,090 --> 01:09:21,450
then then the next step is i have agency or i don't right every time i use a piece of paper

849
01:09:21,450 --> 01:09:32,350
that somebody else can print unilaterally i lose my agency if i if if i move my time into this other

850
01:09:32,350 --> 01:09:40,490
into this other system i have agency in the world that's that's emerging um and so those are the

851
01:09:40,490 --> 01:09:48,370
things that I would get them to, if something's true, even if it's uncomfortable, if it's true,

852
01:09:48,490 --> 01:09:54,630
it's true. And this is an uncomfortable truth, meaning that we've always lived in a lie.

853
01:09:56,070 --> 01:09:57,050
Uncomfortable truth.

854
01:09:57,110 --> 01:10:03,910
And that's the hardest thing. The hardest thing in that is to examine that for what it is.

855
01:10:04,370 --> 01:10:07,270
And because we don't want to believe we've always lived in a lie.

856
01:10:07,270 --> 01:10:11,510
and that's probably the thing that's going to perpetuate this system longer yeah is that no

857
01:10:11,510 --> 01:10:16,010
one's willing to admit that you don't want to believe it it's just too hard on your own psyche

858
01:10:16,010 --> 01:10:21,050
to to believe you've all you've you've you've been deceived your entire life

859
01:10:21,050 --> 01:10:26,710
and into this in this system that you thought was a free market and that that you have a construct

860
01:10:26,710 --> 01:10:33,030
for your belief on what it is that's why i'd say you have to break that you don't have to

861
01:10:33,030 --> 01:10:34,230
you could stay trapped

862
01:10:34,230 --> 01:10:37,410
but it gets easier

863
01:10:37,410 --> 01:10:38,570
when you face the truth

864
01:10:38,570 --> 01:10:40,110
and then decide

865
01:10:40,110 --> 01:10:42,490
I love it Jeff

866
01:10:42,490 --> 01:10:45,490
when we were in Costa Rica I said we had to make a show

867
01:10:45,490 --> 01:10:47,810
on this you said a few things to me that kind of blew my mind

868
01:10:47,810 --> 01:10:49,450
I think you were the only

869
01:10:49,450 --> 01:10:51,330
person in Costa Rica that can snore louder than a

870
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:51,910
growling monkey

871
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:57,450
but it's been

872
01:10:57,450 --> 01:10:59,470
awesome hanging out Jeff I appreciate you

873
01:10:59,470 --> 01:11:01,410
so much thank you for coming on the show

874
01:11:01,410 --> 01:11:02,710
yeah you too buddy

875
01:11:02,710 --> 01:11:05,350
alright I will see you soon see you in Vegas

876
01:11:05,350 --> 01:11:06,750
yeah sounds good