don't lose focus where is bitcoin going who is it going to benefit is this actually going to
unlock this freedom the greatest change of the global order maybe ever and maybe the final one
or will it sort of unlock and enable you know the same networks that were running the dollar system
to have a really neat way to get out of their debt problem and and you know kick the can down
the road. It was designed to kind of have this disinflationary, asymptotic approach to zero
issuance. That has not been co-opted. That will not be co-opted. And because of that, Bitcoin will
win, but it might not win carrying along the carriage behind it of peer-to-peer, uncensurable
cash. If there was something that was co-opted, it's the Bitcoin culture. It's the people. It's
the community. It's the discourse. If we're not ready to onboard billions of people onto Bitcoin
and give them sovereignty, a permissionless network like it was when we found it years ago.
If we can't give that to our kids, then we failed, even though we're going to be multimillionaires.
Let's go. Mark Goodwin, what a terrible time to be a conspiracy theory denier.
Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. The only one who's down more to go on the last week.
Yeah, the only people that are down more than the Bitcoin holders right now are the conspiracy short sellers. So yeah, it's been interesting. It's been fun. Twitter's on fire. And it's just we're in the fog of war, the eye of the storm, whatever crappy metaphor you want to use. But yeah, files are some of them are out. There's some people that are now having to accept the reality that they've denied for years.
And, you know, here we are.
And Bitcoin gets wrapped all up in it, you know.
So very, very fun for, you know, for folks like me who've been sort of yelling for a while about this stuff.
And, you know, obviously many times spoken on this show with you, with Peter, about a lot of this stuff.
So, yeah.
Wakey, wakey.
Welcome.
I hope you had a nice nap.
Welcome back.
I mean, I feel like you're an apology from some people over this.
this is like like you say you've been banging this drum for so long i do want to get into the
bitcoin and epstein um stuff a little bit later but can we start on just the epstein files like
more broadly because i know you'll have been paying a lot of attention to this it's been
impossible to to not see this on twitter for the last couple weeks but i don't even know where to
start because there's just so much in this like what where do you think we should start with this
well I think just you know zooming out quite a bit and just looking at you know what is the real
Epstein story um you know for starters anybody that says they they know the whole Epstein story
is full of it because there's just so much we don't know and and from what we do know there's
so many tangent tangential connections and the web of it is just very insane no pun intended of
course, with Whitney Webb's wonderful book that sort of broke down, you know, all of this years
ago about as thoroughly as one could. So I highly recommend checking out her work, both online and
One Nation Under Blackmail for the real story. I'm not an Epstein expert. I just work with one
who's like the premier. So I get a lot of, you know, osmosis, you know, thinking about Epstein.
But I think the main thing for me that I think people miss with the Epstein story is, yeah,
there was sex, blackmail, and illegal trafficking and prostitution,
and a whole bunch of disgusting stuff with real victims and real people.
And it's so sensational that it's hard sometimes to remember
that there were real people involved, not just the bad people,
but the people that were hurt.
And it's a really sensational story.
And I think by design, the story has always sort of focused
on the sensationalism of it.
You know, he's got this crazy island and they're doing occult rituals and, you know, using code words and eating jerky and pizza and all this insanity.
And I think there's a ton of truth to that stuff.
And it's really disturbing.
But to me, I think the story and maybe it's just because of where my interests lie.
But, you know, the technology angle, the science angle and the financial angle of the Epstein case are just severely under investigated.
especially the financial angle.
So that's where, you know, if I have any right to speak on this topic,
you know, surely where the Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency networks,
you know, combine with the Epstein network
and why someone like Epstein would be interested in,
you know, a technology like Bitcoin.
You know, he's the money man of, you know, that network,
of that, you know, power nexus that obviously has pretty significant control, if not influence,
over American politics. And it seems to be a lot more than just that, but sort of this worldwide,
you know, power structure that influences world governments. And, you know, you look into some
of these emails, there's some really telling things and, you know, that relate to that,
Like Larry Summers, the former Treasury secretary, referring to Epstein as Mr. Money.
You know, I mean, this is a guy that was running, you know, the Treasury at the most important financial powerhouse in the world, sending an email to this guy with, you know, very few credentials in the academic sense.
And he's emailing him, asking him questions and calling him Mr. Money.
You know, I mean, it's like this guy was the money man for this currency speculation network that sort of, you know, grew out of the mega group.
Robert Maxwell, Glenn Maxwell's dad, Jimmy Goldsmith.
And then, of course, Leslie Wexner, who is, you know, kind of the main financial beneficer benefactor for Epstein was one of the main ways that he got the majority of his money.
and Epstein was sort of the money guy for these for these people. These people have billions of
dollars, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. And, you know, they have to figure out a way to
deal with the tax code to, you know, launder successfully to figure out how to hide illegal
money to wash illegal money, to put it in legitimate ventures. And Epstein was the guy.
I mean, he he was the guy for this network that understood the tax code better than everyone else,
which is interesting as it relates to him talking about Bitcoin.
A lot of his Bitcoin discussion was talking about tax code.
And no, you can't say that.
Try not to use coin when doing ICO stuff because it brings up a bunch of legal gray areas and yada yada.
But this guy, he was the money man for the people behind the control nexus.
And, you know, he was heavily involved in what developed in 2008 and 2007 with the financial crisis at Bear Stearns. And he had this firm, I believe it was called Liquid Holdings, that got liquidated.
But they were one of the first people that was really working on these collateralized debt obligations and doing these synthetic mortgage plays that obviously developed and spiraled out of control, which led to the huge crash.
which of course again Larry Summers was one of the main guys behind the deregulation
you know in the Glass-Steagall era that led to you know this stuff being able to be
to be legal that people could split up these mortgages and play with them and take these
huge risks and this you know this this new way this new kind of evolution of the junk bond
that Mike Milken kind of created, you know, a decade prior, two decades prior,
the modern iteration in the 2000s, you know, a lot of it was,
let's play with mortgages, let's cut them up, let's create synthetic versions of these mortgages
and speculate all over them and just blow it out into this big bubble.
And then it popped.
And, you know, these people in the network of Epstein were, you know, pretty responsible
for a lot of what went down at the great financial crisis.
And, you know, for the listeners, if you've listened to me on the show before, you know,
I've talked a lot about how it is absolutely not an accident that Bitcoin came, you know,
right when the U.S., you know, monetary system needed a relief valve for the economic stimulus
that came downstream of these great financial crisis.
um you know obviously it's very convenient at the start of 2009 that you know this white paper comes
out of nowhere and and here we go uh and then of course what happened in covid in 2020 you know
bitcoin was was ready um right before the halvening that brings it down to its relative issuance below
the rate of gold below the target inflation rate of of uh the dollar um that would be in may in 2020
So right before that, we see, you know, the going direct reset with BlackRock and Donald Trump kind of putting together this plan of how do we deal with this stimulus? How do we get it into the right hands? And they created this whole plan, you know, months before there was any whisper of a virus. Again, very convenient place for Bitcoin to be ready, waiting to take on that, you know, be the debt sink, basically, for that massive monetary stimulus.
So Epstein, you know, prior to 2020, obviously he's not around by then. But in 2008, he's right there. He's right in the smack of, you know, really everything that was going down in 2008.
Right. And very interestingly, you know, what these emails have shown is that he was speaking in 2009 to John Brockman, who was the co-founder of the, you know, the Mindshift Conference and the Edge Foundation, which were these kind of like gatherings of scientific minds, you know, kind of the best of the best.
you know, Epstein kind of collected smart people, whether they were, you know, doctors or scientists
or, you know, money people themselves like Summers or like a Brock Pierce. And in 09, he, you know,
obviously after the network had launched, but I believe it was in August of 09, he sent an email
to John Brockman saying, you know, it's time for a new financial, you know, system. It's time for a
new alternative currency um this is what paypal set out to do initially you know this was this was
what they set out to do a new world currency which of course again listeners that listened in that was
kind of the finishing blow of the chain series that was you know hey maybe bitcoin and stable
coins are the final culmination of paypal's quest to create a new world currency um and he was
talking about it right then, you know, in 2009. Now, again, let's just, we have to be very clear
when we're talking about this stuff. He never specifically says he's talking about Bitcoin.
You know, these are unencrypted emails. They're just, you know, he's probably shooting it off
from his BlackBerry at the side of the pool, you know, doing sketchy shit. And, you know,
you can look at the way he types and, you know, they're very casual emails,
but the implications are very, very big. And so to me, like that was kind of the one that
blew my brain open where I was like, aha, like you just connected all of these tropes that I've been
trying to connect. And I'd say I did for the most part, but trying to connect, you know,
how does the Epstein network combine with the PayPal network and culminating all together at
the same time as the Bitcoin network is launching off? Who really had the power, the technical chops,
the economic chops and the influence the political influence and the banking influence to pull
something like this off um and it's that network to me i don't think there's any other network that
could if we want to sort of you know let's moonlight the idea that it was just the shadowy
coder in in uh in his basement you know just a single guy who who did the bitcoin um white paper
and the coding.
You know, if we ignore that possibility,
which is, of course, an absolutely valid possibility.
Again, if anyone's talking in absolutes here,
they're full of shit.
I mean, we just, we don't know.
There's no evidence that the Bitcoin network
came out of PayPal or the Epstein network.
Just like there's actually no evidence
that it came out of a single solitary guy
writing code in a UK basement
or a California basement or whatever.
There's a lot of speculation.
lots of good research that's been done trying to pin it down,
but there just isn't and there never will be.
And to me, you know, the fact that there never will be is also very telling.
You know, we know the state that we're in,
the surveillance state that we exist in and operate in.
And if Bitcoin was this grand, you know,
threat to this group's power that it was,
I think we would know who Satoshi is,
or certainly they would know who Satoshi is.
and Bitcoin would have been dealt with in a way
that never would have allowed it
to become a trillion dollar asset
and be borderline too big to fail
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and certainly the institutions that profit off of them.
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purchased. When you say like who could have pulled this off are you saying you think this came out of
the PayPal mafia people the CIA do you think it was like an intelligence group that actually built
Bitcoin or or do you think really this was like Epstein realizing there needed to be an alternative
and looking for something and finding Bitcoin?
I mean, that's a great question
that I don't think we'll ever get an answer to.
I think these emails give us kind of the closest,
you know, glimpse into that,
but like, we'll never know.
I mean, we will never know where Bitcoin came from.
Obviously, what is infinitely more important
is where it's going.
And that's always been the case.
And, you know, we have a lot to talk about here today,
but I think that's like the main point
of why I was excited to come on.
Well, also, it's just always great to talk to you, Danny.
But, you know, the main thing I was really excited about
to talk about now is just like, don't lose focus.
You know, where is Bitcoin going?
Where is it being pushed to?
Who is it going to benefit?
You know, is this actually going to unlock this freedom,
you know, kind of utopia because we have sound money
and that can be used on the internet?
or will it sort of unlock and enable, you know, the same networks that were running the dollar system
to have a really neat way to get out of their debt problem and, you know, kick the can down the road
10 to 15 years, maybe 40 years at a very important time when technology is really hitting this kind of parabolic breakthrough
with autonomy, with AI, with, you know, robotics, just drone satellites, just internet, you know, architecture
kind of breaking in the world of bits, breaking into the world of atoms as it's sort of happening.
You know, let's focus on that. Where is it going? So the question of was it Epstein? Was Satoshi
Epstein? I think it's kind of a ridiculous question like on its face because he very clearly
wasn't a coder. Very clearly was, you know, in the emails buying books in 2018, you know, that,
you know, was like Bitcoin for dummies and this. And I think a bit of that is sort of him being a
curious guy and, you know, wanting to see what was, well, what is the Bitcoin for dummies? What
is the, you know, how do we reduce this for dummies? Let me check it out. But obviously,
he knew very much about it. I mean, he was reaching out to Gavin Andreessen in 2011 to,
like, ask about what was going on with Bitcoin at the time. You know, again, that email to John
Brockman saying it's time for a viable alternative currency. His connections with Amir and Adam Back
Amir Taki and Adam Back you know he he claimed multiple times in multiple emails that he met
with the founders of Bitcoin and you know there are these kind of crazy guys that are willing to
go to jail for it and I'm not and you know so it's very clear pretty early on in the network cycle
he was hip to Bitcoin and had a pretty good understanding of it you know there's some pretty
pretty interesting emails in there where he where he talks about this so the idea that he was there
at the very, very, very beginning is unknown.
I don't think he has the technical chops
to have created it,
but I do think he knew the people
that did have the technical chops to create it.
And you know the chain series sort of concludes with this idea that you know the most likely people that would benefit from it and have the ability to create it would be the paypal guys would be peter teal and max
lefkin specifically and we know how close they were with with epstein specifically teal um and
there's even emails with peter teal talking to epstein about you know the coming anti-bitcoin
pressure in 2014, which I think, again, everybody read it wrong. Everybody read that email being
like, look, Epstein and Teal are here to take down Bitcoin. They're talking about the coming
pressure. It's like, no, they're sitting on their tower looking at like, oh, there's a new front
developing in the Bitcoin space. And here comes the legislators that don't know that it is
designed to beat the system and become the new reserve currency, a reserve asset, really.
I think they're sort of like, we're expecting it and waiting for it.
And then they saw it and they're sharing it with each other.
And Teal's like, oh, is this the start of what we thought was going to happen?
Which is like, actually the incumbent system pushing back on Bitcoin.
That's how I read it.
I don't see how you could read it any other way.
I mean, I don't think the Epstein network or Teal, I mean, PayPal was playing around
with Bitcoin by then publicly.
Teal owned it.
A lot of those guys owned it.
you know, Balaji and co were working on their mining, you know, their ASICs. And a lot of the
people in the Bitcoin network, you know, had intense connections to the PayPal network. Max
Levchin was an investor in that Balaji, you know, ASIC project. So no, I don't think he's Satoshi.
I don't. Yeah, no, I, Epstein's clearly not Satoshi. But I do think we should dispel some
FUD here because I think there's a few things that are in the emails, like one saying he met
the creators of Bitcoin. I think that could really be easier, easily be explained by maybe he met
like Amir Taki, Gavin Andreessen or spokes Gavin Andreessen and put like chalked them up as the
creators of Bitcoin, which they clearly weren't just like developers in the space early. I think
in 2009, 2010, that's kind of an understandable take. But like the really interesting thing here
is that there's becoming this connection, like especially on Twitter, maybe people who are newer
to Bitcoin who think that this is kind of an issue that Epstein was in Bitcoin very early,
maybe like had something to do with the developers back then.
But really, that doesn't matter.
Do you want to explain why?
Well, it doesn't matter and it does matter.
It does matter in the sense that it is very clear that this network was in on Bitcoin in
the first epoch, which is the epoch that 50% of all Bitcoin were issued.
And that's something that the chain looked at as well.
You look at Charles Cascarilla of Paxos.
He talks about running a mining operation out of a failed bank in Manhattan where he got free electricity.
And he had enough GPUs and early ASICs where he was actually running, you know, he had over 25% of the hash rate of the network during the first epoch, right?
You know, you look at Wenceslas Casares, who was incredibly involved in the PayPal network and, you know, formed Zappo.
He has a hot wallet that's linked to his name that he published online that had a million Bitcoin flow through it.
Right. So these guys were there at the beginning.
This idea that Bitcoin was this complete immaculate conception and there were not bankers or intelligence or scummy people at the beginning is ridiculous.
they were they were there um the difference though is that it was designed so that the
issuance was not controlled by any of these people um specifically unlike uh you know an
ethereum or something like that where there's a pre-mine and this stuff is distributed uh you
know there's at least the idea the concept that this was distributed fairly um and that's important
I think for it to kind of get the treatment from the market as it does as being kind of a commodity versus, you know, XRP that printed 100 billion tokens in the Genesis block, if it even is a Genesis block.
But you know what I mean? It's like they just printed it, distributed it. Yes, they locked half away, but, you know, they were all created at the beginning.
Bitcoin isn't like that. It's infinitely more like a commodity and you have to kind of put in work to get the Bitcoins out.
But it is important that this network was there at the beginning because they probably hold a shit ton of Bitcoin.
But they can't do anything with that Bitcoin.
They can't change the rules because they have a load of Bitcoin.
Well, right.
But also that shows that if this is going to become the new reserve asset of the world, they might have 25 percent of the supply that we don't know about.
And what if it's like, you know, we're seeing consolidation within that network.
It's not like these networks are perfect and there's not infighting within them.
um you know who knows where all that bitcoin went and who knows who has control of satoshi's wallets
um you know all we have is these little data points these little emails these little things
the the little bit of architecture that people have kind of designed to look at the blockchain
and try to make guesses but like we don't really know and if this is going to be something that
you know is a true social post away from becoming a 10 trillion dollar market cap
well you know some of the worst people in the world might hold 10 percent 5 percent of the
supply and we and we would have no idea so to say that that doesn't matter uh is ludicrous in the
sense that well we just made these guys some of the richest people in the world and uh if this is
going to plan out or pan out the way that we as bitcoiners think it will bitcoin will continue to
appreciate immensely um and of course have boom bust like we're seeing now at bitcoin looks
absolutely terrible right now um but you know like like these guys have a lot of power i mean
if this becomes the next reserve asset of the world like it of course it's important but does
that mean that they control consensus moving forward like not at the protocol level i mean
it's not a proof of stake system holding a bunch of bitcoin does not mean you can censor the next
person or restrict a transaction from going through or uh you know my favorite fud i guess is is you
know this idea that they'll make more than 21 million it's like why would someone that controls
that much of the asset want there to be more i mean it makes absolutely no sense um and so but
but but yeah i mean it of course matters um you know if if gold had a had a fair launch like that
but had a limited supply and there was someone that held you know let's say even two percent five
percent of the supply you know it's a big deal i mean they can find ways to paperize it and not
have to sell it they can find ways to financialize it and make um you know make that work for them
without actually moving the asset at all which is one of the big things that worries me about
where bitcoin is going as this like treasury asset um by the way love your interview with
sailor i thought it was great i really enjoyed it that was great but and and i'm not you know
I don't really care what happens to strategy, but I think the idea of like, OK, so this network has X amount of the next reserve asset and it is going to continue to inflate like crazy and it's not going to be distributed necessarily.
It does matter who is there at the beginning. And now we have proof that this network was there at the beginning.
It just was maybe not before the white paper came out. Maybe they weren't there.
I think that's a good point that maybe they came in and saw it and went, we were, you know, experimenting already with alternative currencies. You know, that's something that's really important with this nexus that, again, I talked about quite a bit in the chain is the Steve Bannon, Brock Pierce, IGE company that, you know, Goldman took a big share of that Brock Pierce started after he left the Digital Entertainment Network.
It blew up in flames because of a sexual assault pedophilia scandal.
And he was really into World of Warcraft.
And they developed a virtual goods system where they were, you know, finding value in these multi, you know, massive multiplayer online games like World of Warcraft.
and literally mining gold in the game with these, you know, paying people minimum wage
or way less, you know, but paying people to farm gold, virtual gold in the game, and
then consolidating it and selling it on eBay for tons of money.
And then eBay started to shut them down.
PayPal said, you can't, you know, process your, you know, we're not letting you process
this money.
And they had to look for an alternative currency to sell the alternative currency, you know,
But this network, you know, it's not an accident.
You know, Pierce talks about this, which is noted in the chain, that they were working with economists to try out things in online games because the outcome was a game.
So it didn't have real world effects if they inflated the supply of a rare item, if they only created one of a rare item.
And they basically ran experiments on the players and the users of the world to figure out, you know, OK, how do we not piss everybody off but create scarcity? How do we, you know, do X, Y, Z within the digital space? And that network was very interested in that. I mean, they understood that the world was digitizing and that, you know, that there was an exceptionally good chance that the world economy would run on Internet rails, whether that's the dollar or some other alternative currency.
and again that email from from epstein in 2009 to john brockman was like now's the time this was
this was paypal's original vision the the technology is there we can actually do this
um and there's actually a a super telling email it's probably my favorite in the whole bunch it
was it it was released actually in november um but it's an email from um from uh jeffrey uh to
Steve Bannon in 2018 talking about, you know, should we get rid of Powell or get rid of
Mnuchin, you know, kind of talking about the Trump administration, you know, right before
the going direct happens, right before COVID, you know, is December 2018, like the end of
the year.
And Bannon asked him, you know, should we get rid of Powell or Mnuchin, which is very
strange that Bannon, who was, you know, a political advisor to Trump, you know, very
early on, it was a big part of the campaign, but he kind of, at least publicly, sort of
looked like he had kind of taken a step back from the administration.
But, you know, there were reports, as this email notes, you know, like the Hill was reporting
that Trump was discussing firing Powell because of interest rate hikes.
And Epstein says, no, Mnuchin is OK.
It's simple.
Fifteen years ago, the geriatrics understood that the Internet was like telephones, connections
only.
Then my nerds taught them that cyber is a weapon.
Same with the Fed.
It's a weapon to be used with sophistication.
Inflation is a concept from the 50s
before the internet sent instantaneous info around the world.
So dumb.
Great Epstein banter there.
I mean, it's pretty funny,
but I think it really sets up this idea.
Again, this is 2018.
He's had extensive connections with the Bitcoin space.
by then Bitcoin really had its big pop in 2017 where it really became kind of indisputable that
it was going to be around for a bit that was really the you know to me I mean I got into it
in 2017 but it seemed like that was kind of the okay we're we're we're crossing 10,000 you know
we're going to be here for a bit and I think he understood he was a technologist and interested
in technology and a money man and he knew that inflation was is an outdated concept and we have
technology and algorithms and instantaneous information that can collude and create a
monetary network with zero inflation interesting um you know these were his people so he's being
asked by you know a close advisor to to trump you know do we need to get rid of some of the
most important bankers in the world and he's like nah no cyber cyber is the weapon and and this is
how we're going to do it. And again, he doesn't specifically say we're going to use Tether and
Bitcoin and we're going to create the Bitcoin dollar and this guy Mark Goodwin is going to
write a book about it. No, he doesn't say any of that shit, obviously. But what the fuck else is
he talking about? I mean, it's very obvious that the fight for the future of the financial system
and the global economy was through digital rails. It wasn't through these analog connections like
early telephones it's through packets um it's through creating a monetary ledger um and an
asset that lives on it and he understood that and he understood it early and early enough um
to probably help guide it along i mean he's advising treasury secretaries he's advising
um you know the people at um the digital currency initiative at mit that were helping you know take
over the void left when the Bitcoin Foundation exploded, you know, you know, helping developers
get money. I mean, he he really did understand where this was going. And I think he helped
connect the people that needed to be connected to do it. He connected Larry Summers and and
Brock Pierce at the Mindshift conference, like really early on 2011. I think he, you know, he
He was obviously in the Bannon sphere and talking with Bannon.
He was talking with the MIT guys.
He was talking with Amir.
He was talking apparently with Adam Back.
Gavin Andreessen, at least it seems in the emails, said no, which is very interesting.
So hats off to him.
But, you know, he was all over the space.
And his connections with Teal are pretty immense.
And he was quite literally putting his money where his mouth was.
He wasn't just coming up with these ideas or connecting people.
I mean, he was investing in these companies.
There's tons of portfolios and things strewn throughout.
I mean, I almost kind of feel bad for some of the people that whose names are just in the files technically, right?
Because it's like, you know, here's all the cryptocurrency partners, like the early version of blockchain capital, Brock Pearson and the Stevens brothers, you know, really the first VC firm that, you know, it was kind of behind all the early Bitcoin companies.
You know, they have all of these investor decks just like all over the, you know, the files because they emailed them with Jeffrey because they were, you know, investing with him.
And Jeffrey invested in, you know, in Coinbase.
and was divested from it you know pretty quickly on a slight tangent here it is kind of funny
actually you look at the block stream emails you know he was conversing a lot with austin hill of
block stream and there's actually a uh you know so he he was working with reed hoffman who was
another paypal mafia guy the founder of linkedin who was you know we know was was one of the the
seed investors of Blockstream. And they were really good buddies, Epstein and Reid Hoffman.
And but it's funny, there's this email with Austin Hill where he talks about like, hey,
I see that you guys are putting money in like Stellar and Ripple. And like, there are competitors
and we don't want like, like what they're doing is very bad for our ecosystem. Like we don't want
this competition and basically ask them to divest because they were investing in competitors.
So like that's another angle to this that's very interesting.
To me, it seems very obvious Bitcoin is created to be the commodity that it is.
But like it wasn't always a sure bet.
It's pretty sure now that it has the, you know, mostly has the regulatory clarity of the only jurisdiction that really matters that it's a commodity.
But like that wasn't true back then.
And it really was, you know, a fight to see who would win and who would who would, you know, stand the test of time and actually have a chance at becoming an alternative currency.
And so it was a bit more of a battle then between Bitcoin and these alternative these alternative ideas that even, you know, some of the most important people in the space at the time were like, don't you can't put money into our competitors.
Like, what if we lose? It's so funny to think of that. But yeah, I mean, Epstein was all over this space, all over with Brock Pierce, who, you know, Tether is the most important, maybe the most important company in the world, like in many ways.
like yeah okay they're not creating ai that's going to take over so much of of you know uh you
know jobs and and how people interact with each other and interface with companies okay but they
are investing in it um they're not creating the chips that um are going to run all the computers
that run all this stuff like sure maybe nvidia is up there obviously apple and microsoft you know
there's these software and hardware companies that are stalwarts that are exceptionally important
but like what's more important than the the digital federal reserve i mean like the like
the company that prints dollars and gets four and a half percent or whatever three percent um to
issue dollar tokens i mean it's it's incredible what the the way that tether has squeaked through
um where their bag man now who's all over the files as well howie lutnik is like running commerce
for years and years, right?
It's been Bitfinexed and a lot of these truthers
who are like 99% correct about everything about Tether
except the most important thing to me,
which is that it's not a fraud in the typical sense
where it's not this Ponzi scheme that's going to blow up
because it's too important.
It is way, way, way too important
for dollar hegemonic advances.
for the U.S. government to let Tether die.
And so, I don't know, maybe I'll eat my words.
Maybe it will.
Maybe it finally will.
This will be the cycle,
and I'm totally wrong about all this,
and Tether blows up.
But it's like Tether resembles so much more
of an intelligence operation than it does a fraud.
And I think the Tether truthers for years and years
have really done the research
about how nefarious a lot of these people are
and how they are working at the behest of the government in so many ways,
freezing funds and this and that.
But now they're like the largest private holder of gold in the world.
They have 100,000 Bitcoin.
They have a money printer.
They've basically gotten the okay from at least the current administration.
We'll see if that stays.
And they have a big enough head start in the stablecoin space
that, you know, I don't see the market cap being challenged imminently.
Yeah, they're one of the most important companies in the world.
Which is wild.
Which is crazy.
Obviously, some of us knew that that was coming a little earlier on than others.
But, I mean, the gold thing is...
I know I've been ranting a ton, but the gold thing is crazy.
I don't know if you have any thoughts on it, but it's like,
what's going on here?
This is an interesting development.
I remember Ansel, who, you know, I used to work with a bit at Bitcoin magazine.
He runs some pretty good financial market stuff.
And, you know, he had a tweet about, you know, pretty early on in the gold bull run that was like, what if the gold story is actually kind of accidentally a Bitcoin story?
And it's really about Tether buying up tons of gold to get ready for the expansion of the tokenized gold system.
You know, wouldn't that be kind of funny?
and everybody was ripping him apart and being like,
you so crazy they not buying enough This is a central bank and this china and and sure it is but also no he was right like this this is tether they bought a fucking
shit ton of gold and they're getting ready i mean they they are the prime company set up for
you know if this financial system you know goes into place which like i don't know what other
choice the u.s government has why would trump uh let himself go into the midterms um you know
With a collapsed economy, when there's an alternative where he could theoretically do the things we've discussed for years and use Bitcoin as this debt sink and print a bunch of money at zero rates to the stablecoin issuers and have the new buyers of debt issue stablecoins who hold a lot of Bitcoin and pump Bitcoin.
I mean, to me, it's sort of a no brainer versus like, let's lose all the midterms, get everything all fucked up, have the economy crash, have the world, you know, take over US dollar hedge fund and we lose it to gold backed stable coins from China.
You know, I don't think they're going to let that happen.
They're definitely not going to let that happen.
And so Tether has emerged as too big to fail again.
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The interesting thing is like we've been calling Tether sort of a de facto central bank for such a
long time and so i didn't i didn't guess they were going to buy a massive amount of gold be the
largest private holder of gold in the world but no they're just behaving like a central bank like
it all makes sense like they are just doing what all the other central banks are doing at this
point and i think the tokenization of gold is really i don't really know what their end game is
there um can we go back a little bit because that was an insane rant um you're awesome yeah sorry but
i do want to ask a question about the paypal mafia still because there's tons of people that
got into Bitcoin in, you know, 2010, 2009, like super, super early that are going to get rich that
I might not like. And there's nothing I can do about that. Nothing I should do about that.
But like, do you think there's a non-nefarious answer to why the PayPal guys got into Bitcoin
so early in the sense that they were trying to build a monetary system for the world? They were
obviously going to be paying attention to anything like Bitcoin that did come out.
Is there no explanation where they just spotted it early and thought this is interesting?
I should buy some while it's really cheap.
Well, I think the answer sort of lies in the words of Teal, which is interesting because, you know, he says a lot of things that are obviously not true.
Like, I'm a libertarian and blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, no, you work with the state like you're on the Bilderberg Steering Committee.
Like, what are you talking about?
But, you know, he talks about how competition is for losers.
And that is how you lose profits is entering an environment with competition.
um you know find something that no one else does create it build it offer it and dominate it
become the monopoly of the thing that you offer that no one else does and that is what paypal did
i mean you have to tip your hat these guys are the the ultra spooks of of the the modern world
but you have to kind of tip your hat sometimes and be like okay paypal did it you know levchin
studied distributed systems and cryptography and he meets up with teal um and uh you know they have
a breakfast one morning and he tells him i want to you know build the cryptography for uh you know
sending money um you know using using palm pilots that was the initial idea and they he jumped on it
and they were like that's an amazing idea i'm a currency speculator that's what teal did you know
His first fund was a hedge fund that dealt with, you know, Forex currency, you know, markets.
And they knew right away that, hey, actually, we can blow this out.
I shouldn't say right away, actually.
It actually came when Reid Hoffman joined and when David Sachs, who's now running crypto and AI for Trump, when they both joined, you know, they weren't founders.
it was you know mostly Levchin and Teal but they decided like hey you know we are the we're in
Silicon Valley this is where all the PayPal or sorry all the Palm Pilot users of the world are
if we build this thing as a Palm Pilot native thing like great our like target audience is like
40 bros that live in Silicon Valley whereas if we use email everyone has email and literally
the PayPal idea of emails was just the backup. Like that was just the way to access if your
Palm Pilot got lost. Like they had a backup system that used email where you could send money if your
Palm Pilot infrared, you know, doohickey wasn't working. It was literally just like, you know,
the backup. And then they're like, let's focus on that and let's grow it out like that. And they
were correct. And what people never understand about PayPal is they were the first people to
dollarize the internet they made the dollar via paypal and ebay who later bought them um you know
the the native currency of the internet was the dollar that's extremely important i mean as it
relates to you know these again these are decade-long plans the dollar system new technology
is coming a lot of this um you know communication technology will lead to uh new new ways to uh
spend and transact financially. PayPal understood that. They dominated it. They took over. And they
not only dominated it within the U.S., but throughout the world, they made the U.S. dollar
the de facto currency of the internet. So there's the rant there. How does that relate to your
question? They're already saying that they're not going to let competitors into the space.
You find the space, you dominate the space, and you kill the competitors. Why would this group of
people that understood that there was a viable alternative currency that was that was being born
that was now starting to get a little bit of a market cap and get a little bit of a network
um bitcoin was a lot more fragile than than it is now and rather than embracing it uh they could
have done things to try to displace it um in line with this idea of let's not have competitors and
they didn't do that i mean paypal flirted with doing bitcoin stuff in 2014 like there are um
There's like deleted like commercials that they made that reference Bitcoin payments that they ended up taking that out and not not delivering that option.
And there's a lot of interesting interviews with like David Marcus, who's at LightSpark now, who was at PayPal then talking about, you know, how they were interested in, you know, using Bitcoin early on.
And Teal and Epstein are emailing about Bitcoin in 2014.
He bought it then. That whole network is all over it. They would not let it let it blossom. They wouldn't invest their money into it. They wouldn't be pushing it as this altruistic good or this potential commodity replacement if they thought it was a real threat to their model rather than something that could extend their their dominance.
and so I do think it's very possible that they weren't behind it and they saw it and they went
actually we can use this better than everybody else by you know tweaking a couple things and
actually there's an interesting email there um uh let me just find it here um where he's talking
about he's talking to bill gross um who is the the guy that founded idea labs and idea labs is
this like southern california incubator that was the first investor the first institutional investor
in paypal um and paypal was initially funded with a million dollar um fund from teal himself from his
from his hedge fund that he gave basically to him and Levchin to start the company.
But the first real investor was this incubator Idea Labs.
And Bill Gross, one of the co-founders with him was Bill Elkis, who was the guy that led
the investment into PayPal.
He was the signee on that.
Also, turns out, he was the co-signee of the Jay Epstein Foundation and was very close
to Epstein.
They had known each other since 85.
And there's this exchange between Epstein and Bill Gross
where he talks to Jeff, and they get connected in 2013.
And he says, I'd love to talk to you about my new currency idea.
And they talk about Bill Elkis, and they have this little bit of an exchange.
and um you know they they literally bring up you know are you thinking of doing this with brock
pierce and bill gross says i don't know brock pierce it's very interesting that he says that
because brock pierce at the time was actually running a fund with bill with with bill elkus
um under his clearstone ventures which was a spinoff from idea labs and um pierce was was
running this fund with William Quigley that was the Clearstone Ventures gaming fund.
And that was sort of a spinoff of when he got replaced by Steve Bannon at IGE when they
were doing the World of Warcraft stuff.
He got sucked into this world and he started this online gaming fund.
And so Bill Gross is reaching out to Epstein.
He's like, hey, I have this new idea for a currency.
He brings up, Epstein says, you should talk to Brock Pierce.
And Bill Gross says, I don't know Brock Pierce.
obviously you know he it's very close in his network that he could he could get to know Pierce
very well because he's working with one of his best friends Bill Elkis and in this email after
he says you should talk to Brock Pierce Epstein writes to Bill Gross it just randomly turns and
starts talking about Bitcoin and so in 2013 after discussing I have this new idea for a currency
you should talk to Brock Pierce and then it just randomly cuts to discussing Bitcoin and Epstein
says this. He says, this is May 30th, 2013, Epstein to Bill Gross. The good is that Bitcoin
uses an algorithm to limit supply. Unlike the variable of gold or other commodities. However,
two main issues. One, the government doesn't like it. Money laundering, money transmitting,
aiding and abetting all types of crime, etc. Two, all transactions are arguably taxable
and therefore extra tricky. The Bitcoin guys came to see me early in the process and made it clear
they were all willing to go to jail for their ideas.
I'm not.
But there is a way to do it.
But it turns the Bitcoin model on its head.
Talk to you soon.
So that's 2013.
They're talking about, hey, how can we flip this model on its head?
I have this idea.
You got to talk to Brock Pierce,
who's buddies with Bill Elkis, who we're both buddies with.
And Tether gets formed the next year in 2014,
founded by Brock Pierce.
and Reeves and Sellers,
but then the kind of fourth guy that joins on,
technically I've been corrected by Craig Sellers personally
that William Quigley was actually not a co-founder of Tether,
but he came on pretty promptly after.
Him and Brock Pierce worked on that fund together
under Elkis at Clearstone,
and he comes on and William Quigley considers himself
one of the founders of Tether,
but apparently the other Tether boys do not.
but then they go on and they create Tether which kind of flips the Bitcoin model on its head
and sort of this new idea of a currency that Bill Gross had Bill Gross is like an incredibly
important guy in the in the in the tech space who was you know kind of a an uncle figure for a lot
of these pretty important companies early on PayPal absolutely included and he went on to then form
near intelligence, which became one of the largest data brokers and trackers of human
and data in the world. It's this huge, you know, kind of think like a primordial pound here.
But these guys are, I mean, they're just discussing very openly in these emails,
like, how do we flip the Bitcoin thing on its head? How do we create a new currency? Hey,
you should talk to Brock Pierce. Oh, you know, Bill Elkis. And it's like, they're the PayPal guys.
They were the money behind PayPal. They were the incubators behind PayPal.
you know these guys are all there they could see you know to your point of okay maybe they didn't
start it but did they try to co-opt it you know I to me the tether model doesn't work unless there
is extreme belief that bitcoin will monetize excessively because it's sort of this play that
the dollar will continue to depreciate relative to bitcoin so we have this huge bitcoin holdings
And we can use Tether to not artificially necessarily, but to by creating more dollars of these digital tokens, what else are you using them for other than trading and going in and out of Bitcoin?
So it becomes this way to generate more liquidity in dollars in the Bitcoin space and quite literally tether the Bitcoin price to the US dollar price.
To me, that's not a necessarily like a mutualistic bad relationship with Bitcoin.
You could argue that it does. And a lot of people do. A lot of the hijacking Bitcoin people talk excessively about how Tether is this big fraud. And it's, you know, well, you know, really only started doing this in 2017 when it picked the winner of the block size war. It was Tether that did it.
But to me, I think the story is a lot deeper than that.
And these guys understood that there was going to be economic debasement that would threaten the U.S. dollar system because of just the math of X trillion dollars of debt.
It's obviously gone up exceptionally since these systems were even put in place.
But to me, it doesn't seem like Tether or PayPal has any interest in killing Bitcoin because it actually helps them a lot because they own a shit ton of it.
And so why would they hurt this system?
um how can we try to monetize it and create a you know a profit model around something that
doesn't have a profit model other than just hold and watch the asset appreciate you know you have
to sell you have to distribute you have to you know find uh income right and so paypal and tether
and and this group that is immensely connected at its origins understood how they could build a
system that kind of flipped the bitcoin thing on its head when you look at what tether is today
it has i mean it's it's an important part of like the bitcoin story that is now has like regulatory
clarity in the u.s at least but like go back to 2016 2017 it didn't at all it was under massive
scrutiny yeah do you think um what was sort of well that's that was going to be my question do
you think the kind of epstein paypal mafia connection is what allowed it to kind of get
through that period where like i think who was it the new york fed were trying to sue not the new
No offense, sorry.
The New York DA suit.
Yeah, the SDNY.
Yeah.
I think it's theater.
I think a lot of this stuff is theater.
I think the other big story that was going on at that time was Facebook's Libra.
And they were going to create this basket of currencies.
Then it turned into a stable coin, a US dollar stable coin.
And, you know, immediately upon Facebook, which, again, we know so much about their intelligence
connections at their origin as well.
this idea that the US government wouldn't want the most active website with the most active
monthly users to create a US dollar you know asset that is totally surveillable and seizeable
and freezable and used by the world like the fact that the Senate like called them in like
immediately upon the announcement of it and did this whole you're threatening the US dollar system
and doing all this bullshit.
It's like, why the hell wouldn't they want that?
You know, why wouldn't they want that?
It doesn't threaten the power structures of the Fed at all.
Well, was that not when they were trying to do it
with like a basket of different things?
They wanted to have like gold in there, different currencies.
Well, yeah, it was going to be, you know,
the euro and the pound.
And, you know, I think there was a bunch of different discussions.
And the hard part about talking about Libra
is it literally like changed names and changed ideas
and changed lead developers.
And it just moved around so much.
It's hard to say specifically.
But initially, when that first happened, the first white paper and getting called to Congress, it was a basket of currencies.
And it's hilarious to me that the U.S. government would pretend that they didn't want that.
Now, I get other central banks not wanting it, which is also true.
I mean, there was a lot of talk.
I think Mark Carney, who's now the president of Canada, was running the Bank of England at the time.
and um he talked about you know how this is a threat to you know if it gets put in this basket
and then we create extreme monetary velocity because it's a digital asset and then they have
200 million active users and um you know this could become a threat to like our financial um
you know sovereignty basically and i understand everyone else being involved in the libra project
the basket of currencies pissing their pants but the u.s government it's like you guys obviously
created Facebook and why wouldn't you want this? To me, it was just a lot of theater about like,
okay, well, if there's going to be centralization-
We've got to go back. You say so many things that I've got questions on.
You say like the US government obviously created Facebook. Is that true?
Yeah. I mean, the LifeLog story of kind of this idea that, you know, the day the LifeLog
project was shuttered which was this darpa project um that basically was to create a database an id
pictures um a life log you know of every person of every citizen in the united states the day
that was shuttered was the day that facebook was launched um and um there an amazing article by um by whitney webb about the military origins of facebook and it is a crazy it a lot to like accept of course this this idea that like is
intelligence really in the private sector like this like doing social networks and like
is the remnants of DARPA and the CIA like, you know, actually the company that Mark Zuckerberg
is running. And there's a lot of like suspension of disbelief to sort of accept the premise that
maybe it's true. But when you read about it, I mean, definitely I urge everyone to read it and
make the decision for themselves. It's like pretty undeniable, I think. And, you know, again,
does it matter who created Facebook just like who doesn't matter who created Bitcoin like no it
doesn't really but at the end of the day where is it going and what is it doing and what does it
enable and it created the first it created consent for uh you know the digital ID it created the
first kind of web of interconnectivity between all these people these spokes of people on the
internet I mean it's it's absolutely proven that they have IDs for people that don't even have
um you know uh accounts on facebook like they were able to just sort of map everybody that's
interacted with each other and create um you know through our consent right i mean i was all over
facebook when i was like a child and in high school and came out and tagging yourself in
tagging myself and putting like pick like squares over my face and being like this is me and like
this is my grandma and this is my best friend and i'm at camp and i'm this and just the web of
connections that that whole network created plays a huge role in, you know, like the Bitcoin is
pseudo anonymous. But if you have all of this just crap laying around that you were kind of
careless about all over the Internet, it becomes a lot easier to sort of, you know, analyze and do
heuristic analysis to figure out, you know, what everybody's doing on the Internet. And the Internet's
really hard to be private, like not because there aren't technologies to be private on the Internet,
But like there's so much lossiness in the process of trying to be private.
And when you've created so much evidence and breadcrumbs through social networks that you consented to giving your information to and didn't really think about why that would be a bad idea.
Yeah. And so so anyways, I think it's I think it's pretty, pretty proven that that there was a military origin to the background of Facebook.
and there's more to it um i i i haven't read the article in a little bit and i i don't exactly
remember but um there there's there's a lot more to it than just the day that it shuttered was the
day that it opened that shared some advisors and some people left from darpa to then go
and work um directly at facebook um but but regardless right like the u.s government
understands the importance of facebook being basically the face of the internet for like
billions of people i mean at least a billion people like a lot of places in the world like
that's how you it's kind of the american online portal like that's how you get on the internet
it's like you use facebook it's a lot of times it's free you can't access the internet but you
can access facebook like with a phone um and so like why wouldn't the u.s government want there
to create a u.s dollar asset that runs around on its rails that users in africa can send to each
other for free with their smartphones. Like, why wouldn't they want to extend dollar hedge fund in
that way? Of course they would. But to me, I looked at it as this sort of like, well, this is how we
create consent for what we really want to do. And we have to create the regulatory environment and
use the government as the enabling environment to create the system that we really want. So we'll
huff and puff and make a big stink about, oh, no, like Facebook is becoming too powerful and it's
too centralized. And so it basically creates this perfect opportunity for what we're seeing now,
which is the proliferation of privately issued stable coins that, you know, because of the Genius
Act, that was really the evolution of the Gillis or the Lummis-Gillenbrand bill that had so much
to do and talked so much about the Terra Luna implosion. We can't have algorithmic backed
stable coins they need to be backed with u.s treasuries um you know we need to be very careful
because it's very dangerous and they just created all of this consent and for the perfect you know
um you know opportunity for them to just enshrine u.s debt has to back stable coins these are the
people that can issue them we don't really care who issues them as long as they're backed with
our debt and they uphold to these kyc and aml and all these things and they really just set you know
the perfect gumbo for the U.S. dollar to just spread all over the world and just infiltrate like a virus every other national sovereign central bank.
Why would you keep your money in a local currency if you can just use your cell phone and get a U.S. dollar token?
And, you know, it's a total domination.
The U.S. is in perfect place.
You know, the dollar is over levered against itself, but every other currency looks like shit, too.
and the U.S. dollar is having a technological breakthrough
whereas really nothing else in the world
is having that technological breakthrough by any means
and these rails are there to create enough liquidity
for the whole world to use dollars.
I mean, stable coins are the big, you know,
they are the big kahuna of what's happening.
Whether it's gold-backed or U.S. dollar-backed,
like, that's the fight.
And it's really interesting to me that Tether now
is the largest private holder of gold.
Yeah, it's going to win the fight.
Yeah.
Tether's going to win.
Yeah, it's a showdown between US dollar backed stable coins
and gold backed stable coins.
And the winner is already determined.
It's Tether.
Thanks for playing.
Have a good time.
So I don't know where we started there,
but I think there was a question.
I probably didn't answer it, but we can-
Well, I don't remember either,
but I have another question anyway.
So last time we spoke,
we talked a little bit about, well, we talked a lot about the idea of Bitcoin being co-opted
and what role Tether plays in that. I've also, since then, I did an interview with Brent Johnson
where we talked about his dollar milkshake theory, which Tether only accelerates to a crazy degree.
Oh, yeah.
That is the way that the world dollarizes. Do you think that Bitcoin is co-opted at this point?
No, I don't actually, which I think is probably surprising to a lot of my
independent media friends because I think they would just assume that I think that because I've
talked so much about the Epstein network and Bitcoin and the PayPal mafia and Tether is,
you know, a lot of these things being ultimately bad for sovereignty and privacy and human freedom.
But I don't think Bitcoin was co-opted because I think it is doing exactly what it was designed to
do. I don't know if it's better that it's not co-opted or that like, I don't know if it's like
a worse thing that it was created under these perfect altruistic scenarios and then got co-opted
by the baddies does that feel better is it better for us to think that way um i don't know i don't
know what's better what's not but but but bitcoin was designed to to do exactly what it's doing
right now maybe not literally this month but with you know with the with the down but i mean it's
just very clearly proven itself to be a very strategically important asset at a time where
the economic debasement of the U.S. dollar is about to create, you know, the debasement trade
when the world currency, world reserve currency begins to debase. You just want to get rid of
all of your dollars and throw it into assets. And that has not happened yet. I mean, despite gold
going gangbusters and silver having that that crazy blow off top there um and i'm very happy
for my silver and gold bugs friends i own some and and and great and i do think it will appreciate
immensely um eventually when it gets its shit back together um but but no i don't think i think
bitcoin was designed to do exactly what um it needs to do to um to win you know it i don't think
it was really designed to fight um it was designed to win and be the most mathematically astute
investment you can make during the debasement trade um and i think it's very clear that it is
being embraced by the very administration at the very time that it needs to be embraced to allow
to get the regulatory clarity and have the inbound action, you know, have enough ability
for people to get their money in, more so the institutions maybe than retail.
And that's kind of already happened.
I think if the U.S. government really didn't want Bitcoin to win, they wouldn't let MicroStrategy
do what they're doing, which is obviously a speculative attack on the dollar.
It's just there is no other way to put it.
and if Bitcoin was truly co-opted
it wouldn't have gotten this far
it would have died a few years ago
it wouldn't have had the COVID expansion that it saw
COVID was the perfect opportunity to kill something like Bitcoin
when we saw it crash down to 3,000
if the powers that be wanted Bitcoin to die
they would have killed it then
and they didn't
And they didn't because it is very useful to them. And that does not mean that it was co-opted useful. It means that it is what it is. And it is the only digital commodity that can and will ever exist. It will never happen again.
this idea that you can just carbon copy and create another one or increase the 21 million.
I mean, these are things that will not happen.
They can technically happen, but they will not happen economically or socially.
I can create a fork right now.
I can increase the supply of Bitcoin on my node.
Neither of those things matter at all.
Bitcoin was designed to be a liquidity sink and be a reserve asset at the time when economic
debasement goes gangbusters.
And it is mostly centralized within the United States power system, within the Western power system. It is mostly, even within that power structure, it's mostly centralized within Silicon Valley from a technology standpoint.
And now from an institutional standpoint, there's enough held in private companies or rather public companies that the U.S. government doesn't actually need to buy Bitcoin at all.
They can basically just use reserve capital requirements and tell these publicly traded companies that hold millions of dollars of Bitcoin or millions of Bitcoin.
You have to have a dollar for every dollar of Bitcoin value you have on your balance sheet.
here we'll we'll link you up with a stable coin issuer that will lend you a stable coin so you can
hold for every dollar a bitcoin and we'll charge you a little fee and bitcoin goes up to be a 10
million dollar market cap we generate 10 dollar 10 million 10 trillion dollars of dollar demand
bitcoin goes to 50 trillion we create 40 trillion more dollars a dollar demand like there's so many
ways that the that the system can use bitcoin um that are just innately baked into what bitcoin is
that the idea that this was hijacked by roger or sorry by the epstein group and roger ver was right
and he totally wasn't wrong about anything and i think this bifurcation that's occurred within
the bitcoin space is also part of the design of the bitcoin project which was to keep us all sort
of on the reservation and infighting between the ideologues and the technologists and not
really paying attention to what's going on outside of that.
And instead of focusing on, you know, scaling tools and privacy tools and barter and, you
know, local economies and getting, you know, people that can actually, you know, really
benefit from the monetization of Bitcoin, getting Bitcoin. We're instead cheering on
an administration that is incredibly corrupt and has been proven in these emails to be incredibly
corrupt and is trying, whether it's Lutnik or Trump, and trying to basically get the US government
to pump the shit out of our bags rather than focusing on all the things that we as people
can use. Bitcoin is an amazing idea. It will never happen again. Why do we want to let it
be centralized entirely into some of the worst people in the world holding the majority of
Bitcoin. If we could keep this message going and everyone just keeps bike shedding on who won the
block size war, should it be two megabyte block? Should it be four? Was BSV the right choice?
Maybe Ripple's the right choice. Was it XRP? Was it Ethereum? All of these things that were just in
this little box and they're just shaking it and laughing at us and we're just infighting
instead of actually building something um that will create um you know freedom and success and
and and what have you at the local level it's become zoomed out and it's this big um
you know it's it's ridiculous i think the amount of time we've wasted um whether you believe roger
Veyer's book is the Bible or, you know, the block size war is the Bible. I think you miss the bigger
picture that like Bitcoin was actually probably designed by an intelligence group early on to
create this exact environment and be there when monetary debasement happens and sort of push us
along into the new financial system. And Bitcoin is the only digital commodity. And we're fighting
all of this time, wasting all of this amazing human capital and human energy on infighting.
And I'm not saying that we should reach out this big olive branch to Craig Wright or whatever,
or even Roger. I think these guys have done some pretty dumb things that don't deserve
forgiveness. I mean, you look at who's cost more people more Bitcoin in the world. Roger
Vare is right up there with Mt. Gox and Bcash. I mean, it's just unfortunate. It's true.
But a lot of the people that went over there thinking this guy was correct because he said a lot of nice things like aren't necessarily bad people and they haven't done necessarily bad things on Bcash development.
Like it's not a terrible idea. Increasing the block size was something that most people in Bitcoin agreed with.
We don't need it yet because no one's fucking using Bitcoin to transact. We're just holding it and hoping that we become billionaires.
and I think the real freedom that humans could find out of it is a uncensorable peer-to-peer
cash like that is that is the ultimate goal not because the white paper says it not because Roger
Baer said it but because that is actually what it would would be helpful that I could have an
uncensorable monetary good I think that's that's the greatest but but to be fair Bitcoin economically
you know uh it was designed to kind of have this disinflationary asymptotic approach to zero
issuance and that is what it is that's what it was designed to do that has not been co-opted
that will not be co-opted and because of that bitcoin will win on that metric of being the
reserve asset it will win mathematically but it might not win carrying along the carriage behind
it of peer-to-peer, uncensurable cash. And so can we create an environment where we understand,
okay, it's going to win. It's going to monetize. That's going to happen. The government's there.
BlackRock's there. All the worst people in the world are there. The Epstein's there. Teal's
there. You know, okay. Like, they're not going to just blow this up. I don't think it's a giant
Ponzi scheme. I think it's something a lot more important. Can we come together and understand
that we do have human power and human capital that we can lever against these institutions
that hold all the Bitcoin. But can we create tools, create way to spend Bitcoin privately,
create, you know, education and marketing and ways to get people into Bitcoin,
understanding all of the faults of it and that it that may be this dream of peer to peer
uncensorable cash may fail, but the monetary side will definitely win. Can we fight that battle
knowing that it probably almost definitely was designed to win the reserve asset battle.
And if we can kind of get our shit together and stop infighting and wasting more time on did Epstein hijack Bitcoin,
what size should block and just focus on like, what the fuck do we want?
Because so many of us made it.
I mean, so many Bitcoiners made it and we have all day to sit on pods and sit on spaces and talk about fucking JPEGs and talk about bullshit and nothing is happening.
there is no push towards scaling solutions there's very little work on privacy stuff we're not
developing cool alternative ways to like you know create dollar denominated value and send it you
know we're we're just recreating old shitty systems on top of bitcoin over and over and over again
that are centralized and shitty and that we're doomed to fail on the peer-to-peer cash element
for 8 billion people if we keep bike-shedding and fighting the block-size war every three years
when there's a bear market. It's fucking stupid, and it's probably by design. If there was something
that was co-opted, I'll leave it at this, it's the Bitcoin culture. It's the people. It's the
community. It's the discourse. And it has been co-opted by people that have alternative motives
that are not expressed and they censor and they promote and they tweak and they tweak the discourse
towards specific ways so that we're all wasting our time talking about bullshit and not fighting
the the giant elephants in the room and the block size war is not the elephant in the room
it's not important it it it happened it here we are uh move on like figure it out i can't send
Bitcoin to you privately easily. Can we solve for that? Can we get people to open a million
lightning channels in a single transaction? Can we onboard 8 billion people onto Bitcoin? No.
Does that mean we need bigger blocks? Maybe. But there's probably a bunch of other ways that we can
do it too. And if we just continually to get baited by fucking spooks in the Bitcoin space
that have terrible motives
and are probably taking money
from certain entities
to push certain narratives,
to push certain books,
you know, we're not going to get anywhere.
And so Bitcoin culture,
in my opinion, has been co-opted.
And, you know,
I can hear people already thinking,
like, there is no Bitcoin culture.
You're just projecting
because you worked at Bitcoin Magazine.
You're talking about Mr. Huddle here.
Yeah.
How the fuck did you know?
I'm exactly thinking about Mr. Huddle.
And I disagree.
I think there obviously very clearly is like a multimillion dollar Bitcoin culture industry, but that is also not necessarily representative of what Bitcoin culture could be. And like eventually it's just going to be money. It's just we're all going to be running around with shirts on that just say money on it. And it's not going to be cool or interesting. That's already kind of started to happen.
But if we're not ready from a technological and ideological standpoint to deal with the transition, which has not happened yet, the economic debasement trade has not happened yet.
If we're not ready to onboard billions of people onto Bitcoin and give them sovereignty and give them a permissionless network like it was when we found it years ago, if we can't give that to our kids, then we failed, even though we're going to be multimillionaires.
Like that sucks.
I don't want that world.
I want I want people to be able to use this technology and have access to this monetary policy in a self-sovereign way, holding their own UTXOs rather than having to go through some paperized Bitcoin bullshit where there's there's there's third party trust.
There's custodial risk.
There's all of these issues surveying.
censorship, freezability. I don't want that to be how everyone interacts with Bitcoin,
knowing that it's probably almost definitely designed to win the economic debasement trade.
How do we make it a useful technology for everyone else that doesn't hold it? Because frankly,
not a lot of people own Bitcoin. They just don't. You know?
Damn, you got me fired up, Mark. We need to do better. This has been awesome. Is there anything
else that you want to talk about when it comes to Epstein and Bitcoin? I have one more question
about Epstein, but it's got nothing to do with Bitcoin? I don't know. I talked about a good
amount of stuff. I think the Tether stuff is super interesting. Yes, there is one more thing I want
to talk about. It'll be quick, though, I know, because we've been ripping for a bit. But hey,
you don't have to be quick. We've got all the time in the world, man. Right on, brother. Well,
in 2014, August, Epstein emailed a group of people, or at least one person. It's redacted.
A lot of people speculate it's Austin Hill from Blockstream, but I don't know. It's hard to see. There is a redaction there. But he messages in August 14, 2014, I'm going to Treasury to talk Bitcoin. Questions?
which a that to me is extremely interesting that well after he was arrested the first time
uh you know epstein is going to treasury to to discuss financial things you know mr money is
strutting into treasury um that obviously should be a huge red flag about our government and by
our government i mean the united states government um that financial decisions and and counsel
is being had with convicted sexual abusers.
So that's, A, very interesting.
But also the fact that he is being brought into Treasury
to discuss Bitcoin.
You could argue, is he doing it to discuss
how do we stop it or how do we embrace it
or just, hey, did you make this thing?
I don't know. No one has any ideas.
But the response is very interesting to me.
And I think it really sums up kind of everything that I've sort of speculated regarding stable coins and Bitcoin.
And the response is, I'm more interested in planting some seeds of thought.
Ecuador is working on a nationally approved cryptocurrency.
Looks like we will have a pilot in the works with India to do a digital rupee to phase out grift and corruption.
Canada is also looking at doing a digital Canadian dollar.
I'm more interested in what Treasury thinks about doing a Fed Reserve-backed digital USD,
especially if they felt like they could embed AML and KYC policy into the coin.
It's one of the few legitimate approaches they have to change the adoption use cases of Bitcoin.
A digital USD wouldn't suffer the volatility of Bitcoin and could gain wider adoption
and allow them to have a seat at the table, as opposed to regulating Bitcoin
and driving innovation overseas and criminals underground.
Any insights on this will be great.
That, to me, sums up so much about what we've discussed
about the perception of stablecoins.
And that, interestingly, I think you could make an argument
based on that, that, okay, maybe this is a co-option play
and the stablecoins are part of this co-option play.
of how do we coax, you know, the Treasury into playing ball,
and here's how they can co-opt in and do it.
But to me, it seems like a really clever plan,
especially if this did come from Austin Hill,
that it is them saying, here's how we trick Treasury
and the U.S. government into thinking they have a seat at the table,
and they get a seat at the table to ensure, you know,
U.S. dollar hegemony lasts.
But in reality, us Bitcoiners are actually really playing them and playing the uninitiated into the Bitcoin scheme. And we're tricking them into thinking, yeah, if you use stable coins, you don't got to worry about Bitcoin at all. But in reality, we obviously know that that's not true. And there's this incredible symbiotic relationship between stable. Now, let's talk about it. In 2014, I mean, there was no stable coin industry.
Tether was founded then. I mean, we're talking, you know, at most when it was MasterCoin on OmniLayer. I mean, you know, we're talking millions of dollars, well under a billion dollars. I mean, it was just this tiny little list little thing. But this seed being planted, like as as this email says, like this is how we get Treasury, which again is bringing in Epstein for counsel to talk about Bitcoin.
This is how we get them to be comfortable with the growth of Bitcoin, which, of course, we saw massive growth of Bitcoin in that era. You know, this is how we get them comfortable is we tell them this and they think they're playing this game when in reality we're playing this game, which is the Bitcoin.
And that to me, I think, is like such a perfect summation of a lot of the questions I have about like which came first, the stable coin or the Bitcoin, like the chicken and the egg thing.
Like, was it just to trick the government? Was it created as a ploy? Was Bitcoin created as a ploy to extend the dollar? Was it actually created by a bunch of insiders to make a breakaway financial system that mathematically will win as we see the economic debasement? Like, who knows?
But I think the reality of that situation that Epstein is going into Treasury to talk Bitcoin and he's coming in with this idea in his head after he just discussed in emails previously a year ago with Bill Gross about how he had this idea to flip Bitcoin on its head and you should talk to Brock Pierce and found this new alternative currency, which very likely became Tether.
and then he's going into treasury and then this guy is saying trick them with this tell them this
you know we don't want to force innovation to go overseas like you hear so many of those talking
points in senators today talking about stable coins we can't drive innovation overseas that
was in an email from this guy to epstein on his way probably looking at his blackberry walking
into the fucking treasury to talk about bitcoin in 2014 and he's getting fed this yeah that's that's
a pretty good idea. I actually might have just helped create Tether and that's a pretty good idea.
It just so crazy that we think of these technologies as inhuman and especially Bitcoin as not having been created or pushed along by humans It like the philosophers of Bitcoin about how Bitcoin wasn invented it was discovered
And the fires of math and the proof of work and just like absolute slop ridiculousness.
Although sometimes I do think it's fun and I get it.
But no, it was obviously invented.
Bitcoin was fucking invented.
Grow up.
It wasn't discovered.
There are elements of math that, of course, will always exist.
But like, yeah, it was invented.
It was invented by people.
They coded it.
They released it.
They created pseudonyms.
They did like Satoshi was a human being.
He might have been multiple human beings, but he was a human being or they were a human being or whatever.
And it was this.
This is a plan that was done.
It was done very carefully.
It was done at the specific time.
It was done to do exactly what it is doing now.
It was not co-opted. Tether didn't co-opt Bitcoin. The big blockers didn't lose. It isn't some whatever conspiracy you think it is. It's like the conspiracy is actually simpler in that it was a group of people came together and went, let's do this and let's do that and let's tell them this and we'll release it here and we'll do that and we'll sit back and we'll make billions and billions of dollars and we'll have a whole new alternative currency network where we can launder and we can pay for nefariousness.
things and do a whole bunch of crazy shit and take over the world global economy. And the fact
that at the very beginning, these discussions were being had with the Epstein network deserves
a think. It deserves a thought to think about what does that mean? Does that change my relationship
with Bitcoin? Am I selling all my Bitcoin because I think that there were bad things,
bad people involved at the beginning, or it might be this big trick? I'm not. And I know people
probably don't get that. Like, how could you? You know, I've been called crazy things on Twitter
because people sort of assumed I was someone other than I was by saying that there's a lot
of issues with Bitcoin and a lot of bad people and blah, blah, blah. But like it was designed
to do what it's going to do. And I want to be there for it when it does it. So I can use that
my asymmetric, you know, information advantage of being early to Bitcoin to go do cool things with
my family and help and help people and hopefully build things because ultimately the final play of
the bitcoin dollar stable coin hoopla blah is is not a decentralization of monetary policy it's a
centralization of the u.s dollar policy over the world and then that versus gold and versus bitcoin
and that trifecta will play out and if i had to choose between bitcoin gold or u.s dollars to hold
long term to be able to give something to my kids, I would certainly put some in gold,
but I would put the vast majority of it in Bitcoin, which is what I'm doing, which is what I'm living.
I'm not lying to you. I'm going down with the ship with all of you if this goes to zero, too.
You know, like that's just the reality and it will be painful, but it is what it is. But if I had to
pick between those three things, I'm picking Bitcoin for the long term, for the most appreciation
and in the most sovereignty.
And I hope that the Bitcoin space
can stop arguing and fighting
like Don Quixote style,
the windmills of the block size war
over and over again.
And we can come together and be like,
OK, maybe we were fooled.
Maybe we were bamboozled.
Who gives a shit?
It is what it is.
Let's fight.
What do we do?
How do we build?
How do we put this money towards?
Bitcoiners like suck at supporting stuff
as it relates to development.
Like there's a lot of cool stuff going on.
But like in general, other spaces, because it's a much less hard money, you know, there's so much more money in Ethereum and in these shit coins to slosh around to buy influencers to do this stuff.
Bitcoiners need to sort of to use sailor talking to you, like not eat their own and and and support their own.
Because there are a bunch of true Bitcoiners that don't give a shit about state power and want the U.S. dollar to not necessarily go up in flames, but like, you know, do a controlled demolition of the power structures that are upheld because of dollar hegemony.
and and i think bitcoiners can do it and uh i hope they do um but either way i mean i'm pretty
sure bitcoin uh is going to succeed because it was designed to succeed and uh you know how how
that success is distributed is up to us um and i think there's a lot of demoralization in hearing
about all these bad things like oh my god epstein wasn't talking about bitcoin and maybe 2009 like
this is so bad. Like, it's not the money of pedophiles. Like, sorry, that's the US dollar,
maybe the pound. I don't know. But it's not Bitcoin. And certainly, we can get rid of that
moniker and get rid of that stickiness of these bad people by using it as a tool that empowers,
you know, local trade and economic freedom that doesn't touch status government bags. So,
yeah long story short that's that's that's about it um okay last question on epstein do you did
this um document drop unearth anything about who he exactly was and who he was working for how what
where he kind of fit in the power structure yeah i mean nothing that i think wasn't already pretty
expressed by a lot of great Epstein researchers, but obviously Whitney Webb has done excessive
amounts of work and research on this. But no, I mean, he talks about how he basically is a
representative of the Rothschild banking dynasty, which is also very interesting because
Trump himself was bailed out by Wilbur Ross, who later worked in his first administration
when he was a banker at Rothschild Inc.
You know, when he got into a bunch of gambling debt.
You know, so he was very likely an asset
of Rothschild banking dynasty as well.
Obviously, Rothschild, like when you talk about them,
it like devolves really quickly into, you know, like,
I don't know, like Luciferian, anti-Semitic, crazy.
I mean, it's just you can't like say Rothschild
without it going into that place,
which I think is probably by design
where you can't actually talk about them
because if you do, you're this crazy guy
and you hate Jews or whatever.
And it's just like, no, that has nothing to do with that.
It's like, this is a banking dynasty
that has controlled humongous areas
of the world global financial system for centuries And it interesting that I think a lot of people when they think about these banker families they think of you know gold silver like napoleonic era
um which is true that's where they were there as well but like these banking dynasties these these
infrastructure dynasties the rockefellas these the you know they don't they don't just disappear
they didn't lose all of their money they got guys like epstein to hide it and that's what epstein
was doing i mean he was he was the best at finding these offshore banking communities using cayman
you know um fronts and and washing you know billions and billions of dollars for the wealthiest
people in the world and he so much as says that in in the in the docs that he is a representative
of them he obviously isn't only a representative of them i mean he obviously has humongous
ties to Leslie Wexner and, you know, a lot of other people and obviously had his hands
in, you know, he was distributing money for Bill Gates, you know, who also invested in
MIT on behalf of him.
He was obviously all over the PayPal mafia through Peter Thiel and Reid Hoffman and,
you know, was investing money in Thiel's valor, you know, his fund there.
Like, I don't think there is one answer of who he worked for.
I think he was the best at, you know, brokering power and blackmailing was a part of it.
But I think it was mostly a money manager and finding ways, you know, working with the Bronfmans, finding ways to hide humongous amounts of money for these families that had so much money.
and he was better at it than anyone
because he understood the math.
He understood foreign exchange,
you know, and currency plays
and the tax code.
And he was just so good at what he did
that, you know, we get treasury secretaries
calling him Mr. Money, you know.
But I don't think there's one single answer.
I don't think we'll ever have a single answer.
We'll never know why he died
or if he died or how he died
or why he got into this network in the first place,
although there is a lot of speculation
about his connections going overseas
and meeting up with Jimmy Goldsmith,
who formed the mega group.
And there's a lot of interesting conversation there,
especially with the Dalton School and William Barr
and his connections with the Trump administration.
Like, looking at the life of Epstein,
I mean, this guy is everywhere,
everywhere you want and don't want to be.
and there is not one handler.
He had multiple projects
where he was working on specific people.
He had multiple people that were working with him.
I think he was taking directions
from multiple intelligence agencies,
from multiple countries.
I think the answer to who runs the world,
it's not necessarily a fun answer
because it doesn't really answer anything,
but it's a trans-fraternal, trans-national,
transgenerational uh group of people so it doesn't really narrow it down you can't just say oh it's
the city of london oh it's it's israel oh it's the u.s oh it's it it's all of those things it's it's
it's so much more simpler and more complicated at the same time and again i'm not an expert on
epstein um i just work with one and i've read the books and and you know done a lot of reading myself
But, you know, like, we'll never know the true answer.
Even the things that we got, the Epstein files, like, how can you possibly trust this administration at this time?
Why are they dropping it now?
What is the point?
You know, I'm seeing people say that it's a big sting operation and Q is real and Trump's going to there's a thing.
And he actually blew the whistle on him.
and it's like I just I think they're going to do some sort of play like that
where they'll try to make Trump the hero.
I think it will probably work on a lot of people.
It won't work on me.
I don't I don't trust this guy.
I never liked Trump.
I mean I think he's hilarious like early on Trump was very funny
and I living in a super liberal area.
I thought it was very funny when he won watching you know
the Californians just lose their minds.
It was fun.
I enjoyed that. But I also knew what was coming was was was very serious that if they're going to put in this sort of very compromised chaos agent to run the most important government in the world, that like very intense, dramatic things were going to change and were going to happen.
I mean, you look at that election, it's like Hillary was obviously made more sense as like a insider and the continuation of the status quo of the Obama years and bringing back a little bit of neocon hawkishness there and a little bit more Bush era than Obama.
But, you know, let's continue on this path.
And then Trump comes in and he's a wrecking ball by design.
And he set up everything that we're seeing now, legislation-wise, all of these things that we were talking about of like, how do we set up the Bitcoin dollar system? Like he set all that up in his first term, created the scenario to print tons of money, worked with Fink and created the going direct reset, leaves for four years. And it's just, we have this, you know, a cadaver as president. And it just doesn't even make any sense. The Biden era is like a dream. It's like it didn't even happen.
And then they run Kamala and Waltz, which is the most obvious just poison pill.
They know they're not going to win candidacy ever.
And Trump comes in, you know, number 47 and he's here.
And now it's just absolute insanity by design.
Tariffs, gold, silver explosions.
You know, Bitcoin, at least at first, did break all time highs and went to 126.
I mean, that was only October.
The stablecoin market exploded.
There's way more stablecoins now.
Now the tokenized gold market has exploded.
Tethers down the largest private gold holder.
Like all of these things are, you know, are being done basically under the guise of a chaos agent of chaos.
But in reality, I think it's a lot more controlled than that.
And this trans fraternal, transgenerational, transnational group that is very possibly behind all of the, you know, the most important players in the Trump government.
You know, Trump himself.
Besant is this longtime Soros guy.
uh lutnik is a lot is an epstein affiliate and is the bad guy for tether uh we're having kevin
warsh come in as the um uh you know most likely coming in he been picked anyway to be the new fed chair he was an advisor to anchorage digital um up until a week ago till they took his name off of it I mean alongside Max Levchin of PayPal alongside
Stanley Drunkenmiller, another Soros guy. And, you know, Anchorage Digital was the bank that the
Trump administration gave the first bank charter to as Brian Brooks, who was like a founding,
not founding, but very early PayPal VP, or sorry, Coinbase VP. He was like their head legal guy that
set up all the legal environments there to let Coinbase become the publicly traded company that
it is. And on his last days in office, when Trump's leaving, he sends them a bank charter.
Kevin Warsh, you know, Bilderberg Steering Committee member who worked with Teal there,
and he's advisor to like the one bank that the Trump administration gave the bank charter to
up until a week ago and now he's going to go run the fed uh and is going to come in to theoretically
cut rates to zero and let the let the real economic debasement begin um again i don't
think that's an accident i don't think that's chaos that to me sounds very it doesn't seem like
an accident when you look at how it doesn't seem like an accident i don't believe in coincidences
they do happen but i i think what we're going to see is warsh come in and cut rates and we're going
to see tokenized gold explode and we're going to see Bitcoin explode and we're going to see
the debasement trade begin. Stocks are going to go crazy because why would you hold anything in
dollars? Real estate probably will go crazy. And then we'll see these crazy boom busts all
throughout the system at the same time. And what will be the outcome? I think it will be the U.S.
finds a way to basically force demand for dollars and pay off their debt. They'll still be way in
debt, but they'll find buyers to service the old debt that they have. And, you know, basically,
things will turn on for another 10 to 40 years. And then we'll see what drone warfare, AI,
all the crazy scientific sci-fi future, how that affects power structures. Do we live in a
multipolar world? Or is it already one world government already? And it's just a bunch of
theater. We'll find all that out in our lifetime, which is exciting. But, you know, it's going to be
insane because they don't want us to feel like it's by design. They want us to feel like it's
chaos. So they will generate social chaos. And if you are engaged all the time and you're online
and you're getting this dream of slop and you're looking at YouTube shorts and you're on Twitter
and you're doing the thing, you're going to you're not it's going to be this very gradual
thing and then you're suddenly oh wow uh every commercial at the super bowl was about ai
ring doorbell was using ai to find dogs and they can track everything that they see in all the
neighborhoods in the world i mean it's like like it's insane where we're going and if you're
involved in looking at the screen like you it'll be so gradual you won't notice um but if you're
not looking and then you check back in every once in a while like it's so crazy and so insane how
fast everything is moving. Um, and they keep you on the edge of your seat. I mean, it's like,
like what's going on in El Paso, Texas? Oh, they closed the border. They closed the, they closed the,
the airport for 10 days. Cause are we going to war with Mexico? Oh no, it was a balloon.
And they shot it down and they already like that story happened and ended like this morning for me,
you know? Um, the chaos of that is like, they're, they're just, they're creating, you know, they're
wagging the keys and you're looking and then you miss that brian brooks handed anchorage digital a
bank charter on the final days of the administration because you're still wondering how the fuck biden
won you know it's like you look away because the keys are so shiny and dangly and jingly
and then it's like oh holy shit we're in a new financial system um and so like enjoy the ride
have fun be safe don't fucking lever up like you're gonna get fucked like bitcoin could go to
40 35 who the fuck knows it could it could it could absolutely go down another 50 for like a
second and then shoot the fuck back up it could go to zero but i think long term if you hold spot
and you chill buy some metals buy land get yourself so that you're not dependent on anything
i don't want anyone listening to this to be a stable coin slave or surf i want to see you have
assets and have land and live a nice life. And, uh, you know, at least you'll be able to write a
cool memoir because you saw the, the, the greatest change of the global order, um, you know, maybe
ever and maybe the final one. Damn, Mark, what a way to end the show. Um, you're fucking awesome.
Where do people go to find all your writing? Um, where do you want to send people? Yeah. Thanks,
brother. I think you're the man too, man. I really appreciate these conversations. It's very fun. I,
It really means a lot that there are places where we can have these conversations and, you know, who the fuck knows what's going to happen.
But the only thing that I care about is people are informed enough to then go inform themselves.
So there's a lot of things we've sprinkled out there.
Go look them up.
I'll send the email links so you can post them if people want to look at those emails and everything I talked about.
But you can find me on Twitter, Mark Good W underscore I N.
uh i try not to be there as much but then when something like this happens i have to go look at
what everyone's finding and spend a couple days um being in the slop with everyone else um but
i've been writing for unlimited hangout for a couple years now and we actually just started
a new publication um called paper cut publishing house um whitney myself and my dear friend ab
very excited about that our first book is is out it's just shipping now um called the technocratic
Dark State by Ian Davis, who's the man who, you know, has been writing for UH for a long time,
too. So find me at Unlimited Hangout. We got a whole bunch of new stuff coming, website redesign,
maybe some video content, a whole bunch of shit. We want to thank everybody for
taking care of us for a while. And we got a bunch of cool shit coming, a magazine,
all this good stuff. So it's been a little bit of a dormancy period for me because I've been
dealing with a bunch of health issues, but feeling so much better and alive and excited to
make a bunch of more articles for you. And so that's all coming. So yeah, find me on Twitter
and on Limited Hangout. Well, let's go. Thank you, Mark. This was really cool. Hopefully I'll
see you in person again at some point soon, but I appreciate you, man. Cheers, brother.
Thank you.