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Big mining pools and big businesses and exchanges don't want to play games of chicken with consensus

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with plebs because plebs ultimately are the ones that won't compromise. That's the network's

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greatest strength. As a payment network, it's fallen into complete neglect. No one is using it.

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We don't have that much time. And I think it's more just like, who's driving this thing? Who's

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got what direction are we going? It's grabbing the wheel and saying, all right, we're turning around.

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I don't want the network to be like held to ransom by trolls unless people can actually coalesce around resisting it.

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Your best strategy is ignoring it and hoping it goes away.

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And the problem with ignoring it and hoping it goes away is that other people might not.

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Whoever blinks first wins basically.

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You have to be prepared for the nuclear option all the time.

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Most failure scenarios there's no recovery from.

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all right let's get into it then um mechanic good to have you back on the show man i uh i text you

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like i don't know six months ago when i think it was still called bit 444 being like if you want to

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come on and talk about this give me a shout and uh last week you texted me so why now i guess is

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the starting point why is now the time that's a good question i don't know i feel like i'm not

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really meeting the responsibility of it. It's kind of laziness on my part. In an ideal world,

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no one needs to champion anything. Everyone can just, what is it, rational consumers making

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informed decisions. Nothing actually works like that, does it? Like people have got to be motivated

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to actually learn about it and figure it out. And something like a soft walk in Bitcoin, you need

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people to pay attention to it and you need other people to go, oh, maybe I should listen and figure

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out what this thing is. Because right now, most people are not against it. I will concede that it

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doesn't have a great deal of support, but the people that don't support it typically are

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ambivalent or have never heard about it, rather than are actively thinking it's a bad idea or

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against it. So that means I should get off my butt and actually make some effort explaining it to

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people and furthering the conversation because who knows maybe it's terrible and i didn't realize

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and the last thing i want to do is make the kinds of mistakes i've made before where i've advocated

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for things like segwit and taproot and they did have issues and i would never have noticed them

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at the time because i was so gung-ho about supporting them i mean there's definitely a

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sort of vocal minority that are very loud about this like under my video i get tons of comments

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being like, why aren't I talking about this? And truthfully, probably for the last six months,

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I've completely checked out of the conversation. I got sick of all the personal attacks. I felt

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like it wasn't really going anywhere. And so I haven't really spent any time getting into it. So

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maybe we should start with catching me up. Since last time we spoke, what's changed? Where are we

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at now? Not a lot technically. So on a technical level, nothing's really changed from what it was

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before. All it does is crudely look at the ways in which people are stashing arbitrary data in

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Bitcoin at the moment and make them impossible for a year. It doesn't pretend that they won't

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find other ways of doing that. And it doesn't pretend that it's been done in such a careful

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and considered way that it's something we could permanently do to Bitcoin forever.

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Now, that's a relief for me because every single upgrade in Bitcoin I've been excited about has

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always had something up with it that I didn't anticipate and that we all didn't anticipate.

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So temporary soft forks are a nice way for once where we can finally go, all right, if something

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about this sucks, don't worry, the rules are going away after a year. So to be honest, that's about

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it for the technical elements of it. It puts limits on taproot, broad strokes, no one is using

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the things it does in Taproot apart from inscribers. To be honest, most people aren't

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even using Taproot. I can't remember the last time someone gave me a Taproot address. Most people just

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use native SegWit as opposed to nested SegWit. That's basically it for where it's at. The 444

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numbering thing, that was just amongst the BIP editors. That's not Bitcoin Core, right? That's

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a different group of people. We call it RDTS. That's what it's referred to in the latest release

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of knots that merged it which means reduced data temporary soft fork and it's you can refer it to

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that if you it's kind of like the artist formerly known as prince at this point like it's the bit

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formerly known as 444 it's it's whatever like uh 110 is what most people know it as at the moment

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yeah so and and give me the timeline like what what are you proposing now because i think you

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only have like a few months left until this activates right yeah so uh around the 7th of

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August is when miners must signal for it according to the rules of people running it. That doesn't

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do, that's not the thing coming into effect, but it's effectively the start date of it.

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In early September is when the actual full rules come into effect.

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Where, you know, and at that point you can no longer make giant op returns.

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But the rules effectively come into effect in early August because if everyone's signaling

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for it, then that amounts to the same thing because the policy mirrors the incoming consensus changes

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where if you have giant op returns, they remain consensus valid in August, but no one's going to

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be relaying them at that point. So they wouldn't really get around the network assuming people are

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actually running it. So it kind of soft activates around that time, but I don't mean to imply that

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it's a thing a miner could ignore. Should it get enough enforcement, a miner would be crazy to mine

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mine blocks that don't comply with it because then they risk, however many people are enforcing it,

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throwing their block in the garbage, which no miner wants. And it's why miners do what they do.

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It's why they respect halvings because at the end of the day, they want a network that will accept

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their block. And that's how soft forks can win, even if miners aren't really particularly

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interested one way or the other.

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so i want to know like what you think the chance of this actually going ahead are because

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like in my mind six months ago or whatever it kind of reached fever pitch it was like it was a

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big talk on twitter and i don't know if it's because i checked out and then the algorithm

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stopped feeding me stuff but i see this a lot less now like and i know in terms of like signaling

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for this change the number of blocks mined with like signaling for this is something like six like

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it's very very small like is there still demand for this yeah among node runners not really amongst

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miners that we've seen but um that the miners aren't a great indicator of much because of how

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centralized mining is and for the purposes of in indicating consensus changes you only really have

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a few miners like because it depends how you define miner right there's a lot of hashes around

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the world but most hashes have nothing to do with this they just work on templates that are sent to

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them by their pool and there's only a few pools so that for all intents and purposes the incoming

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signaling for a consensus change to Bitcoin with regard to miners is basically only down to a

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couple of companies, Foundry and Bitmain, F2Pool and Viya. So it's a little bit of a stretch,

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but it's a philosophical point I like to make anyway. If Foundry and Bitmain said, all right,

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we like this fork, and they started indicating that it should go ahead, a lot of people in the

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space would be like okay let's we're doing this then that's a foregone conclusion and i think

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that's wrong um that's why i haven't been yelling at these guys to activate it because it's genuinely

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not it's a convenient uh stopgap solution for it and this isn't me trying to pretend that foundry

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would listen to me if i did yell at them i'm not saying that i'm just saying that if if a couple

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of companies unilaterally decided to change bitcoin's consensus rules and most of the space

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went, yeah, all right, we'll just go along with that. That wouldn't bode well for the future of

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Bitcoin. And I like the fact that this thing has gotten, I called it a soft fork activation on hard

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mode, because there is no support from miners pretty much, but we know that's a very, very small

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handful of people. Businesses have said pretty much nothing about it, including ones that are

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sort of formally quite activist in the space, like bull Bitcoin and, you know, the more based,

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but smaller companies. So they've been quiet. But there's a lot of plebs out there that will run it.

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And those guys are the ones with nothing to lose, really. They will run those nodes and they will

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throw blocks in the garbage that don't comply with it. And that was, we've got some precedent for that

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with BIP 148, right? So like people called it a bluff or whatever. But at the end of the day,

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big mining pools and big businesses and exchanges don't want to play games of chicken with consensus

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with plebs because plebs ultimately are the ones that won't compromise. And I think that's the

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network's greatest strength because those are the people that will never bend in ways that could

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compromise the network in bad ways. They will always stick to, you know, these absurd things

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that Saylor would characterize as paranoid crypto anarchism, right? And I think that just encapsulates

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it there because Saylor and that sort of what he represents within the Bitcoin space is very

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risk averse to doing things with Bitcoin and wouldn't ever do these kinds of controversial

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and activist endeavors. But the people that would are the people that keep 21 million safe on his

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behalf. And it's funny that he doesn't make that connection. If you hold Bitcoin, your phone number

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00:09:58,460 --> 00:10:02,640
is one of your biggest vulnerabilities. SimSwap attacks are one of the most common attack vectors

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targeting Bitcoiners. Somebody socially engineers an employee at your carrier, moves your number to

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a new device, and they're into your account. It happens because traditional carriers put a human

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in control of your phone number, someone who can be bribed or tricked. But CAPE is a US mobile

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I've just realized we've kind of gone in at the deep end here.

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And there'll be people listening that may not really know exactly what it is that you're kind of against and what Bit110 is going to attempt to do.

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Do you want to just explain from a higher level what your issue is with Bitcoin at the moment?

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Yeah, my issue with Bitcoin at the moment is, and there's so many ways to come at this and attack it.

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I feel like we had a war in the past.

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And everything in Bitcoin comes down to not understanding that it's two things at once.

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It's the Bitcoin.

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Like you have the dollar, which is the currency that people love.

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It's limited to 21 million.

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It's deflationary.

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All these, you know, it's unconfiscatable.

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It's, you know, uncounterfeitable.

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All that great stuff.

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But Bitcoin is also the name of a payment network where you move that currency around.

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So there's a million payment networks where you can move dollars around,

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but none of them are their own currency.

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And the dollar doesn't depend on those payment networks exactly.

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but it's nothing without them.

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And similarly, Bitcoin is nothing without its payment network,

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and that's the blockchain.

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The blockchain is kind of this commons that serves a specific purpose

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that's to facilitate this permissionless money,

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this censorship resistance and all that,

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but it's very, very neglected.

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So with that framing, I'll go back to the prior blow-up

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and civil war in Bitcoin where you had Roger Ver

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and the big blockers who primarily loved Bitcoin because of this freedom to transact and peer-to-peer

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payments, which is an entirely a celebration of Bitcoin as a payment network, which is beautiful.

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But they saw it being limited grossly by the size of blocks and they wanted to make blocks larger

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to facilitate more cheap, easy access, you know, financial activity for the world. Very admirable

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goal, but it came at the cost of decentralization, of verification of the rules. And that's a

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compromise just not worth doing because it unravels everything, including the store of

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value element of it. And he famously said, Roger, the champion of that whole movement,

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if we risk Bitcoin becoming PayPal 2.0 in order to scale it, I think that's a risk worth taking.

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Apologies if I got the quote slightly wrong. Obviously, they forked and Bitcoin Cash and all

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that history and all that, but this was a fight between the two prioritizing the two different

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use cases. But the point I'm going to make is that you need both. They reinforce one another.

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Fast forward to today, and you have the opposite war. You have Michael Saylor, you have, sorry to

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keep Duncan on Saylor, but he definitely represents a kind of mentality where he will, on pizza day,

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the legendary pizza day, which we sort of champion as the initiation of Bitcoin

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as a way of paying people to do things rather than just, you know,

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what can I really do with this?

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You know, on Bitcoin pizza day, MicroStrategy said, you know,

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we bought all these pizzas with dollars.

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Don't ever spend your Bitcoins.

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Keep your Bitcoins.

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Spend dollars.

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And that's the opposite approach of Roger, right?

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It's don't spend Bitcoin.

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It's not a payment network.

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Ignore the blockchain.

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Just hold it.

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and use it as a hedge against inflation and the fiat system dying and all that stuff.

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But the problem is, the life of Bitcoin is in its payments.

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And that's what keeps 21 million alive.

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Every single payment is a reaffirmation of the fact that there's only 21 million Bitcoins.

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And that, because that's not a law of physics, it's a rule that needs constant reinforcement

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and people to assert that that's true, because otherwise it can slip away.

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so what's happening today I feel is that Bitcoin is being treated as an amazing store of value

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without an understanding of where that comes from and what reinforces that and it's reinforced by

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the other aspect of what it is which is this payment network now the payment network is the

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blockchain and the activity on the blockchain is no longer being treated as something that

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facilitates financial activity. It's being treated as a way of storing data on other people's

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computers for free, as long as you can pay a miner to do it. Now that's a misunderstanding of what

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it's there for and a misunderstanding of what would motivate a person to store it and actually

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maintain decentralization. So all that context is how I view the problem. Because I've looked at

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crypto and I've tried to ascertain why is bitcoin good and crypto isn't why do we get to say bitcoin

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not crypto why do we get to make that distinction and it was always something around decentralization

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and the decentralization in bitcoin is around the enforcement of its rules which is done by the

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people running nodes who have to store the blockchain so we have to be honest with ourselves

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about what motivates them to do that and they're definitely not motivated to store other people's

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data for free. And Bitcoin is also anonymously uploadable data. And you have some, there was

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some questions obviously around the kind of content people would put on cloud storage that

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you could use anonymously. I'm not going to go into that because it's just horrible to talk about.

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But it's also a distraction because it's so inflammatory. I don't really want to

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harp on about it too much. All I'm saying is that crypto has an incentive problem.

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none of the cryptos that compete with Bitcoin are genuinely decentralized because it's really

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hard to motivate people to keep them decentralized. And Bitcoin, while I don't think arbitrary data

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just kills Bitcoin overnight if you turn a blind eye to it, if your incentives become warped,

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like Rogers were when he said, let's just make blocks huge, or like, you know, the store of value

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maxis, I'll call them, so I can stop dunking on Saylor endlessly. If your values go in that

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direction instead, then you neglect the payment network aspect of what it is, and you forget

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about who's actually going to maintain the decentralization. So, example, you have this new

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stretch, SRTC, whatever it is, Saylor's new thing. They are egregiously using Bitcoin as a way of

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recording history of someone moving stable coins around on Bitcoin. I have no interest in storing

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that. No one who runs a node does. That's not what the blockchain's for. And the only reasonable

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assumption you could make for a network where that kind of stuff goes on is that a node is something

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someone else runs, not a thing I need to run. I spoke to one of the biggest Bitcoin exchanges in

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the world a few days ago, and they told me they don't run a node. A third party does that on their

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behalf. And it wasn't even a thing that they felt like silly about. And I couldn't believe this.

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You don't run a node. Like, if you're listening to this, and you know, you spoke to me a couple

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of days ago, I'm not trying to dunk on you. You're an awesome person, and I like your company. But

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you don't run a node. And that's becoming a thing that someone else does on your behalf.

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That just turns Bitcoin into everything we're used to with the internet. It's third parties.

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it's big data companies running things on your behalf and then they become the gatekeepers of

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the whole thing so you already have that in mining you have crazy centralization with what

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goes in the chain in the first place due to how centralized mining is then you have centralization

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of enforcement and that that comes as a result of very specifically treating the blockchain

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like something someone else has to deal with on your behalf and then you just need a username and

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password to access whatever it is you need to do with Bitcoin as a payment network. For me,

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that's going to only trend towards the crypto centralization end of things. And it stands to

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reason that we would go down that path at some point. But we didn't back in 2017. And we need

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to not do that now So I paint the positive picture of it just to kind of wrap it up The reason I support Bitcoin 10 is that it quite crudely looks at some of the things that have gone on over the last couple of years since 2023

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and it says, so we made data carrier size bigger, which allowed much larger op returns.

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Granted, not a lot of people have ended up using that because you can do witness stuffing with

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taproot stuff more cheaply, but it was the wrong direction. And everyone knows the trend is much

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more important than where you are. Like I would much rather watch Bitcoin go from $10 to $20

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than I would watch it go from $100,000 to $90,000 because the trend is much more important, right?

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So the trend towards abuse of the blockchain and usage of it for non-monetary activity

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and resignation to people that would do such a thing is an issue because that only compounds and

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gets worse and worse over time. You set precedent as you go and we have a long history of being

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hostile to arbitrary data. We fought wars over it. We kicked Vitalik out and made him do Ethereum

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elsewhere because of spam filters. So when we started getting rid of stuff like that in 2023,

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to me, it spelt the beginning of Ethereum and Bitcoin would have just been one thing rather

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than separate. And for me, I'm like that cycles back, it informs development. Bitcoin just becomes

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infected with everything that made crypto, crypto. And then it becomes very difficult to defend it

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because it's kind of dead on an identity level at that point.

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What even is it?

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And interestingly, there was some conjecture from Epstein

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in the Epstein emails where he was talking to Peter Thiel

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and saying, we can screw with Bitcoin

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because there's confusion about what it actually is.

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Some people view it as this, some people view it as that.

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More when I see you.

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And there's nothing more on that topic,

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but it was very reminiscent of, you know,

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if you want to destroy something, undermine its identity

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so that people don't actually know what it is.

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And I promise final point in this rant,

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which is Bitcoin is money,

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has been the mantra, a very crude sort of slogan

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of the people on my side of the debate.

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And it's been said in response to people on the other side

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who are like, no, it's a database.

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It's just a database.

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It's just a chain of blocks.

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It's just a crypto.

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Any of these things that denature it

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and make it a very difficult thing to identify and define

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and place sensible boundaries on.

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but i i think there's some semantics in that because like i i don't think the people that say

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bitcoin is a database would disagree that it's money but like technically it is a database but

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it's a database that acts as money but there's a few things in that because i agree with you in

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terms of like the store of value side of things like i think that has been a dominant narrative

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and it's one that i don't agree with like i think bitcoin is money and should be used as money

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but i feel like that's changing like some of this needed technical improvements to become

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usable money and i think the stuff like cash app have done with all the square terminals awesome

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that's going to allow bitcoin to be used as money more and like as bitcoin is used as money more does

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that not then solve the spam problem in the sense that they just get priced out of transactions

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because like right now you can send a bitcoin transaction for less than a sat up of e-bike like

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it's it's insanely cheap yeah and as more monetary transactions happen does that not just price spam

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out anyway rather than trying to like gatekeep who can send bitcoin for what reason i think so two

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points. I don't think there's gatekeeping involved. I think Bitcoin has been optimized. It is a

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database, as you say, but it has been heavily optimized for financial activity. There's lots of

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annoying things that would get in your way if you were trying to use it for other stuff. It's why

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spammers pay 546 sats per output more than they need to because of the dust limit and things like

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that that say you're not using this for financial activity. So gatekeeping is a perspective, but I

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think it's that. I think it's not... there are different kinds of databases for different

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purposes and Bitcoin is useless if you want to upload like a Blu-ray rip of some of Jurassic Park

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or something. It's just not designed for that but you could do that on a different database.

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So it is a question of optimization and I would never look at that as gatekeeping.

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And your other point about pricing out the arbitrary data use case, that has been an assertion

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that's been made many times and I just don't see any evidence for it ever becoming true because the

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trend again is the opposite. I'm stunned at how much of a ghost town the blockchain actually is

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and like we're paying 0.14 cents uh oh sorry 0.41 sats of e-byte to get transactions in the chain

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and that's reliably getting in and there are miners that are still keeping the limit of one

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sat of e-byte and you're paying only 14 percent of that and another miner will just pick it up and

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put it in. And this is so nuts because a lot of nodes don't, I'll get a little bit technical here,

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a lot of nodes don't relay transactions that are below one sat per vbyte, which means if you mine

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a block that has transactions that are that cheap in there, your block runs the risk of taking a

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little bit longer to verify and getting thrown away. So you're risking 3.125 bitcoins, you know,

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250 grand worth of fresh bitcoins for the cheapest transactions possible. I mean, we're talking about

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like 30 bucks worth of stuff, which is usually just op returns. And the trend here has been

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really worrying. First off, I don't know why anyone thinks Bitcoin would naturally only,

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why the people that would pay the most to use it for storage would be people engaging in financial

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activity rather than people looking to store data on other people's computers. I don't know why you

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would make that assumption. Lots of people do, and it's just because it's a monetary network,

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So you'd expect that. But second off, the trend is just wrong. Like five years ago, there was higher fees. People were paying more and most of the stuff was economic activity. The trend is since 2023 has only gotten worse and worse and worse. We had a massive peak of spam and around the halving it went, it reached fever pitch. And, you know, there was like millions of dollars of transaction fees over a tiny little period. And then it just dwindled and it seems to be dying. And I'm just stunned by it.

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Like on a Monday morning, when historically you'd pay a lot for a transaction fee, there's just no competition.

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Like the only time you'll see expensive fees is if there's like an anomaly block where it took an hour and a half to find a block or something.

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Outside of that, people are just not using it.

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And to me, that just means like, yeah, it might be at $77,000 a Bitcoin.

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The store of value aspect is doing fantastic, undeniable.

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This is historically one of the bare years as well.

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but as a payment network it's fallen into complete neglect no one is using it and the optimistic

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stance there is okay well they're using lightning instead or something and i hope that's true but i

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really just don't i don't think it is i i think people would much rather just use centralized

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third parties we know that's what happened with el salvador like they'll just use stuff where

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they're moving money around uh off chain because it's easier it was cheaper bitcoin's cheap now but

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But I don't know. I don't see any evidence for the idea that Bitcoin wouldn't just become a tragedy of the commons or the blockchain, at least, where, you know, you can buy 100,000 Bitcoins and it's one on-chain, you know, one on-chain event.

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And then you never touch the blockchain for years after that. Unfortunately, that's just not going to work.

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But why do you think that is? Because it'd be easy to say, like, this is just like the monetization phase of a new asset.

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And like you could make that argument if fees had always been low.

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But fees, like you said, have been much higher in the past.

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So like why do you think it's dwindling so much now?

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Because like even if Bit.1.10 happens and like it's not going to fix that problem.

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I agree.

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I think this and this has nothing to do with my stance on Bit.1.10 or data or anything like that.

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It's a cultural shift.

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Back in the day, like I'll speak from my perspective.

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I got into Bitcoin because of the payments, not because of the Austrian economics.

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I didn't have a clue about any of that stuff.

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I wanted to send money to Julian Assange and I wanted to buy drugs on Silk Road.

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And all of those kinds of things were, you could only do them with Bitcoin because it was,

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everything else was Visa or PayPal on and you couldn't use those kinds of networks for those

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things. I didn't know anything about deflationary economics. So, and I think Roger and all those

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early guys felt the same. It was an amazing, it was money on the internet. It was, it worked like

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a network. You moved stuff around like emails. It was incredible. And I think, you know, and it had

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no interest to the people, to a guy running a hedge fund that wanted to stop, you know, losing

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money to inflation and stuff like that. It was way too risky and way too tainted with illegal

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this, that and the other. So after a while, we fought and fought and fought and managed to make

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the thing appear a bit more legitimate on the world stage. And then you have a very friendly

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US administration to crypto rather than Bitcoin exactly, mainly just because Trump and his kids

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want to scam as many people as possible, but I digress. So now we've got the money here,

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and the money guys, they don't care at all. Everything they do is so publicly obvious.

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If you've got a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin, you're not flying under the radar using a

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permissionless payment system for that. It's completely no interest to you. So I understand

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why it's a blind spot for Saylor. But unfortunately, that again is an essential part of it. And I just

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think it's a cultural shift. So again, this isn't me wearing my Bitp 110 hat and advocating for that.

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That's a different topic. I just think we've completely changed into this. We want a deflationary

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currency. Fiat's broken. We can store in something that isn't a melting ice cube in our hands.

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Wonderful. But this thing was a payment network too, guys. And you've never acknowledged it as

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being one and you've never used it as one. And if you continue to champion only 50% of the story,

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then you'll find out we have nothing. It just, it necessarily goes away. You have to have both

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elements of it to reinforce one another. I don't know if you agree, but that's been a cultural

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shift I've definitely noticed. No, I do agree with that. And I think, I guess maybe I don't

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think, I hope that that sort of shifts. And I think stuff like Cash App allowing all Square

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terminals to accept bitcoin as payment maybe that's like start of a change i think it's going

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to probably be a long road but i hope it's start of a change because i want to see bitcoin users

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money and and i guess like it is going to come down to merchants demanding to be paid in bitcoin

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people like actually actively using this thing as money but again that's that's kind of not really

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tied to the bit 110 stuff but to get back into that like you said before um like most nodes aren't

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even allowing less than one sap v by transactions but they're still getting into blocks and this was

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always kind of the argument about knots before the bit 110 conversation was that like even if you get

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to like 80 of nodes running knots it's still not going to stop spam getting into the blockchain

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um so was that basically the realization or the thing that you acknowledged to then move forward

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with an actual consensus change to bitcoin no um it's a good question but it and it's very logical

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i see why you'd see it that way but the bip itself says look after this thing activates we're right

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back to having spam filters again because this is not how you fight spam. You can't have a fork

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every time someone's doing too much of an activity that's causing harm to the network. It's not

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realistic and it's not practical. That's why filters are there in the first place. So that is

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acknowledged in the BIP itself. It's not something I wrote, but I do agree with the sentiment in it.

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I think that it's a very good point that the intolerant minority, or the tolerant minority as they're referred to, can punch a hole through the network and say, right, none of you are relaying this stuff, don't worry, I will.

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but that's more indicative i would say of how centralized mining is so sub sat sub sat per v

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byte summer that happened last year which was a group of people decided all right core has this

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spam filter of one sat per v byte and if you pay less than that for a transaction fee it's not

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getting relayed and no miner will mine it um so they sort of colluded a group of people i'm not

386
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sure who they were, most likely the Libra Relay guys. So Riordan and Peter Todd and I don't know,

387
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probably Portland Hoddle and a couple other guys. And I guess F2Pool and Mara decided, all right,

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we're just going to start putting this stuff in blocks. I don't think F2Pool participated actually,

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but definitely Mara. And the problem is Mara is enormous. They're probably the biggest miner in

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the world, depending on how you define miner. So you very quickly can make what nodes are doing

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look very silly with regard to what they relay. That's the first point. You can punch a hole

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through a network. And Peter Todd first did this with full RBF, right? And this kicked off that

393
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whole argument between him and John Carvalho, who was like, no, we can't have full RBF because we use

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unconfirmed transactions and we consider people having paid us on our business based on that.

395
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and full RBF breaks that because people can double spend much more easily.

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And, you know, Peter Todd made his point and went, I don't care.

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00:33:46,973 --> 00:33:49,753
Core aren't getting rid of that spam filter, so I'm going to blast through it

398
00:33:49,753 --> 00:33:54,332
and take advantage of the centralized nature of mining and get one pool to accept it.

399
00:33:54,753 --> 00:33:59,693
And that blows open the spam filters, and then the filters at that point might as well just go.

400
00:34:00,332 --> 00:34:05,533
So that's point number one, is that if you have centralized mining,

401
00:34:05,713 --> 00:34:08,732
you can make spam filters look ridiculous very quickly.

402
00:34:08,873 --> 00:34:14,793
however bitcoin doesn't work if mining is centralized so we know that already i know it

403
00:34:14,793 --> 00:34:22,593
is working today but the the reason that we don't trust it is because it just we know it's not

404
00:34:22,593 --> 00:34:27,073
sustainable eventually foundry and antpool can come under the kind of pressure where they can

405
00:34:27,073 --> 00:34:30,893
do things that we don't want them to do and they're just going to do it and their miners are

406
00:34:30,893 --> 00:34:36,873
just not going to leave it's not 2015 so mining needs to be decentralized and spam filters work

407
00:34:36,873 --> 00:34:41,593
much more effectively in an environment where mining is decentralized and we should be going

408
00:34:41,593 --> 00:34:47,532
in that direction. That's point one that I'll mention in disagreeing with this idea that you

409
00:34:47,532 --> 00:34:53,313
can just, you know, spam filters are useless, which I hope is a fair characterization of what

410
00:34:53,313 --> 00:35:01,393
you're getting at. Number two is that it's beside the point because I don't want to relay certain

411
00:35:01,393 --> 00:35:06,593
stuff around regardless. And that's just the end of it. And that comes down to a more sort of

412
00:35:06,593 --> 00:35:12,993
moralizing position where, you know, there's $20 fell on the floor. It's not mine. I'll pick it up.

413
00:35:13,113 --> 00:35:16,773
I can either walk off with it or just go, excuse me, someone drop this and figure out who they are.

414
00:35:17,133 --> 00:35:22,512
Like you can always tell yourself, oh, you know, someone else, someone else will just pick it up.

415
00:35:22,512 --> 00:35:26,573
If I don't like, I might as well just put it in my pocket and walk off. I don't want to do that.

416
00:35:26,852 --> 00:35:31,433
And I don't want to contribute to making Bitcoin worse. And it's no skin off my nose. If I have

417
00:35:31,433 --> 00:35:37,512
sensible mempool policies that take stuff that's obviously people doing NFT scams or whatever,

418
00:35:38,273 --> 00:35:43,273
you know, clogging up the network, trying as good as possible to run some sort of

419
00:35:43,273 --> 00:35:46,913
affinity scam where, you know, they would have got laughed out of town in crypto,

420
00:35:47,073 --> 00:35:52,133
but they come to Bitcoin and pretend it's somehow, you know, legit at this point and

421
00:35:52,133 --> 00:35:57,332
immutable and all that stuff. I don't want to participate in that. It cheapens what Bitcoin is.

422
00:35:57,332 --> 00:36:03,252
I really do think Bitcoin is a beautiful, important technology, and I don't like denigrating it with this kind of stuff.

423
00:36:03,673 --> 00:36:09,212
And I don't want to participate in it, and I'm not going to, and I don't have to.

424
00:36:09,493 --> 00:36:17,453
And that's, like I said, people can call that sanctimonious if they want, but if you want to have any kind of quality of life,

425
00:36:17,633 --> 00:36:24,113
you do have to have people adhere to these kinds of, I don't know what you would refer to it as,

426
00:36:24,113 --> 00:36:31,252
but these kinds of not race to the bottom ethics.

427
00:36:31,512 --> 00:36:32,373
That's all I'll say.

428
00:36:32,552 --> 00:36:33,773
Like you want to live in a town

429
00:36:33,773 --> 00:36:35,113
where people just don't litter.

430
00:36:35,373 --> 00:36:36,153
It's not illegal.

431
00:36:36,453 --> 00:36:37,913
You're not going to get in trouble for doing it,

432
00:36:38,212 --> 00:36:39,512
but just don't do it.

433
00:36:39,953 --> 00:36:41,613
Like stop making the place worse.

434
00:36:41,773 --> 00:36:44,193
Like I know that's maybe not sustainable

435
00:36:44,193 --> 00:36:46,633
in a thing with Bitcoin if it becomes huge,

436
00:36:46,773 --> 00:36:49,032
but I'm not going to actively participate

437
00:36:49,032 --> 00:36:50,113
in making it worse.

438
00:36:50,433 --> 00:36:53,552
And it's undeniable that what happened

439
00:36:53,552 --> 00:36:59,573
And with the UTXO set in 2023, where it went from like 80 million to 160 million, that messed

440
00:36:59,573 --> 00:37:00,113
up stuff.

441
00:37:00,212 --> 00:37:02,273
And it made it way harder for people to run nodes.

442
00:37:02,393 --> 00:37:03,832
And I didn't want to participate that.

443
00:37:04,173 --> 00:37:10,012
And that was when the beef started with Core because they just completely fell down in front

444
00:37:10,012 --> 00:37:10,232
of it.

445
00:37:10,252 --> 00:37:12,993
And we're like, all right, we'll just tolerate this.

446
00:37:13,052 --> 00:37:14,173
There's nothing we can do about it.

447
00:37:14,173 --> 00:37:15,633
And I really don't think that was true.

448
00:37:16,373 --> 00:37:18,993
Do you want to pay less in taxes and stack more Bitcoin?

449
00:37:19,433 --> 00:37:20,153
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450
00:37:20,153 --> 00:37:22,613
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451
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452
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453
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454
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455
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456
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457
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458
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459
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460
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461
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462
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464
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466
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467
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470
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471
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472
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473
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474
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475
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476
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477
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479
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486
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487
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489
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490
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491
00:39:41,913 --> 00:39:48,052
so let's talk about the things that you won't be able to do on bitcoin that you can now um because

492
00:39:48,052 --> 00:39:52,712
like i think we could leave jpeg aside like i'm not here defending jpegs at all but like what else

493
00:39:52,712 --> 00:39:59,493
does it get rid of because like you won't be able to do bit bm stuff right no you can okay so what

494
00:39:59,493 --> 00:40:05,533
can't you do the limits of bit.10 are big opera turns so you can't make an opera turn bigger than

495
00:40:05,533 --> 00:40:12,913
183 bytes. Op return itself remains because it's completely how segwit works. Taproot, it puts a

496
00:40:12,913 --> 00:40:19,692
bunch of guardrails on taproot. So op if and not if, which, you know, this conditional element that

497
00:40:19,692 --> 00:40:27,672
you can put inside a script, that doesn't need to be in taproot. I made a video saying

498
00:40:27,672 --> 00:40:34,192
if someone actually has a use for this, come and tell me I'm wrong about it. But as far as I can

499
00:40:34,192 --> 00:40:38,672
tell there's no use for op-if. And I had a conversation with Nunchuck, who make a pretty

500
00:40:38,672 --> 00:40:43,732
awesome wallet. And they're pretty pissed off about this whole thing. And they're saying, look,

501
00:40:43,973 --> 00:40:49,033
Miniscript can compile to have op-ifs in it. And I was saying, all right, that does seem to be the

502
00:40:49,033 --> 00:40:53,692
best argument you have for it. But you're not saying you need it. You're just saying that it

503
00:40:53,692 --> 00:40:59,573
might accidentally show up in some of your scripts, in which case, fix Miniscript so that it doesn't

504
00:40:59,573 --> 00:41:01,732
Like, you don't want to have wallets that accidentally

505
00:41:01,813 --> 00:41:15,625
generate consensus invalid stuff or that you can spend and it be consensus valid I kind of going off way too far too fast It basically says here how Taproot is actually designed

506
00:41:15,725 --> 00:41:17,745
which is that you have these different spending conditions

507
00:41:17,745 --> 00:41:21,385
and rather than reveal them all when you go to spend your UTXO,

508
00:41:21,485 --> 00:41:23,545
which is really expensive for transaction fees

509
00:41:23,545 --> 00:41:26,185
because you've got to show all the different ways you could have spent it,

510
00:41:26,505 --> 00:41:27,585
including the one you did,

511
00:41:28,005 --> 00:41:31,205
the genius of Taproot as scaling technology was,

512
00:41:31,205 --> 00:41:36,765
I only have to reveal the one leaf, the one condition that I actually chose to execute,

513
00:41:36,965 --> 00:41:44,005
and the others might as well have not existed. But if you're using if statements instead,

514
00:41:44,185 --> 00:41:49,125
then all of the other options, like if this happens, then that, if something else happens,

515
00:41:49,205 --> 00:41:53,045
then that. When you're executing things in that more traditional way in Bitcoin,

516
00:41:53,165 --> 00:41:57,265
then everything gets written to chain. So the reason Taproot was scaling tech in the first

517
00:41:57,265 --> 00:42:01,385
place was that you only need to reveal one leaf. That's why it's good for privacy and it's good for

518
00:42:01,385 --> 00:42:06,885
scaling. So there was no, there was an assumption that people wouldn't use it. People might push

519
00:42:06,885 --> 00:42:13,165
back on that, but I think it was just an oversight. But then, you know, Casey Rodimore, inventor of

520
00:42:13,165 --> 00:42:19,505
inscriptions, figured out, oh, we can use this to stash a bunch of data that gets ignored because

521
00:42:19,505 --> 00:42:24,625
it's after a false. So you put op false, then you put op if, and then everything in the if condition

522
00:42:24,625 --> 00:42:30,525
gets ignored. That's what an inscription is. And that all gets disabled. So you can't use op-if

523
00:42:30,525 --> 00:42:34,645
anymore inside Taproot. You still can use op-if, but you can't use it in Taproot.

524
00:42:35,345 --> 00:42:38,765
Let me ask you one quick question on that, because this is where I think you've had some pushback,

525
00:42:38,865 --> 00:42:43,545
because for people who are using Taproot in a pretty obscure way, I'm sure it's a very,

526
00:42:43,625 --> 00:42:47,845
very small number of people, but are the conditions where you can be using Bitcoin

527
00:42:47,845 --> 00:42:53,505
in a real way that is going to get essentially frozen after this soft fork or hot fork or whatever

528
00:42:53,505 --> 00:42:58,105
is. I think the technically true answer is yes, but it'd be misleading for me to just say that

529
00:42:58,105 --> 00:43:05,625
because no one actually is. I think the conditions in which Bit.1.10 could activate and a Bitcoiner

530
00:43:05,625 --> 00:43:12,305
could suddenly find themselves unable to spend their funds are so unbelievably contrived that

531
00:43:12,305 --> 00:43:17,385
I have to acknowledge it. I can't just say no, because that would technically be a lie. But if

532
00:43:17,385 --> 00:43:22,105
I say yes, it's definitely going to give you the wrong impression. First off, everything gets

533
00:43:22,105 --> 00:43:28,985
grandfathered in. So if you have a taproot UTXO with no key path, which already is, you know,

534
00:43:29,785 --> 00:43:39,185
one subset of taproot outputs, and then the only way you can spend it requires revealing something

535
00:43:39,185 --> 00:43:45,405
that a condition with an if statement in it, you can still spend that UTXO provided it was created

536
00:43:45,405 --> 00:43:47,945
before the activation height of bit.1.10.

537
00:43:48,485 --> 00:43:53,045
So you're talking about a UTXO that very likely does not exist,

538
00:43:53,345 --> 00:43:54,425
but can still be spent.

539
00:43:55,045 --> 00:43:57,925
The only way you can get locked out of your fund

540
00:43:57,925 --> 00:44:01,745
if you're sending money to a taproot address due to bit.1.10

541
00:44:01,745 --> 00:44:06,405
is if you create the UTXO after the fork happens,

542
00:44:06,805 --> 00:44:09,465
and then you just have to wait until it expires

543
00:44:09,465 --> 00:44:10,765
before you can spend it again.

544
00:44:13,465 --> 00:44:15,225
And here's the thing.

545
00:44:15,405 --> 00:44:21,885
I'll say is that there are zero people in the world that know how to make the kinds of taproot outputs

546
00:44:22,525 --> 00:44:30,285
that BIP 110 forbids who aren't well aware of how BIP 110 works. Most people are just not even using

547
00:44:30,285 --> 00:44:35,245
taproot at all, let alone the last condition which I didn't mention yet, which is you can't have

548
00:44:36,445 --> 00:44:41,645
a tree depth greater than 7 which gives you 128 leaves. You can't go deeper than that because then

549
00:44:41,645 --> 00:44:46,725
then you get a control block that's bigger than 257 bytes, if I recall correctly.

550
00:44:47,345 --> 00:44:48,665
And that's the final condition.

551
00:44:48,765 --> 00:44:49,505
There's no op success.

552
00:44:49,805 --> 00:44:50,505
There's no op if.

553
00:44:50,965 --> 00:44:52,425
There's no op not if.

554
00:44:52,705 --> 00:44:53,765
There's no big op returns.

555
00:44:54,045 --> 00:44:57,785
And you can't have more than 128 leaves.

556
00:44:58,125 --> 00:44:58,705
That's it.

557
00:44:59,065 --> 00:45:04,585
But all I'm just saying to round off that point is no one using Taproot in that sophisticated

558
00:45:04,585 --> 00:45:07,745
a degree is going to be unaware of what's going on here.

559
00:45:07,745 --> 00:45:11,765
And if for some reason they are, the rules expire.

560
00:45:12,005 --> 00:45:14,025
So they will be able to spend the UTXO again.

561
00:45:14,745 --> 00:45:18,945
So this is kind of a hard circle to square, square to circle, whatever.

562
00:45:19,105 --> 00:45:20,585
Because I agree.

563
00:45:20,705 --> 00:45:25,365
I'm sure the people who are technically capable of making a transaction like that do know this is happening.

564
00:45:25,765 --> 00:45:32,625
And I'm sure that people are going to make those transactions because this is happening to say, look, you're locking me out of my Bitcoin.

565
00:45:32,625 --> 00:45:38,685
and and like bitcoin like changes to bitcoin shouldn't make people's coins invalid to spend

566
00:45:38,685 --> 00:45:44,325
so like how do you try and square that circle well it depends how you want to look at it because i

567
00:45:44,325 --> 00:45:51,345
can ruin any soft fork i can make a utxo today that if you activate ctv makes me unable to spend

568
00:45:51,345 --> 00:45:57,765
that utxo i can do that just to mess with people and then i can and i can annoyingly grandstand on

569
00:45:57,765 --> 00:46:01,725
principle and say you're not allowed to do this because you're violating a principle of bitcoin

570
00:46:01,725 --> 00:46:03,645
by making a UTXO unspendable.

571
00:46:04,445 --> 00:46:07,945
And I will say the people that are most concerned about that

572
00:46:07,945 --> 00:46:11,305
also have floated the idea about the quantum computing fork

573
00:46:11,305 --> 00:46:13,765
where they take all of Satoshi's coins,

574
00:46:13,885 --> 00:46:18,145
which is a million real Bitcoins worth of real UTXOs.

575
00:46:18,265 --> 00:46:19,765
So I'll point out the hypocrisy there.

576
00:46:20,225 --> 00:46:20,925
But I will just say,

577
00:46:21,505 --> 00:46:26,085
adhering to that as a principle is too crude, in my opinion,

578
00:46:26,225 --> 00:46:28,425
because you can mess with people

579
00:46:28,425 --> 00:46:31,425
and you can't have Bitcoin be so principled

580
00:46:31,425 --> 00:46:34,365
that those principles can be weaponized against you

581
00:46:34,365 --> 00:46:36,345
from making the system work properly.

582
00:46:36,545 --> 00:46:38,485
You have to be quite pragmatic with it.

583
00:46:38,945 --> 00:46:41,145
It's not being done in a gratuitous sense

584
00:46:41,145 --> 00:46:43,045
where we're saying, you know,

585
00:46:43,165 --> 00:46:45,305
here's a fairly normal use for taproot

586
00:46:45,305 --> 00:46:47,905
or even something that happens occasionally

587
00:46:47,905 --> 00:46:50,705
that we're making impossible.

588
00:46:51,485 --> 00:46:53,525
But also I'll further say,

589
00:46:53,725 --> 00:46:56,885
if I did troll you and you were a CTV advocate

590
00:46:56,885 --> 00:46:59,225
or, you know, whatever it is,

591
00:46:59,225 --> 00:47:04,465
like any one of the soft forks that people are excited about in the Covenants camp,

592
00:47:05,025 --> 00:47:07,145
if you were an advocate for one of those soft forks,

593
00:47:07,385 --> 00:47:11,685
and I decided to make UTXOs that made it impossible for you to activate it

594
00:47:11,685 --> 00:47:14,085
without making my UTXO unspendable,

595
00:47:14,565 --> 00:47:19,385
and you then took the extra step to grandfather in all existing UTXOs,

596
00:47:19,745 --> 00:47:21,525
I don't think I'd have much left at that point.

597
00:47:21,605 --> 00:47:23,205
And that's what BIP-110 did, right?

598
00:47:23,265 --> 00:47:26,165
So when it first came out, people said,

599
00:47:26,165 --> 00:47:28,085
this is technically confiscatory.

600
00:47:28,085 --> 00:47:35,005
there are UTXOs that are going to be rendered unspendable by this so Dathan implemented a UTXO

601
00:47:35,005 --> 00:47:39,785
height checker which said if you created the UTXO before this thing activates then you're exempt

602
00:47:39,785 --> 00:47:46,385
so to me that was a good enough back and forth with the community saying all right if this is a

603
00:47:46,385 --> 00:47:50,805
problem and a sticking point I'll address it with this and I think that was reasonable and I think

604
00:47:50,805 --> 00:47:54,905
it's reasonable to be reasonable here rather than adhere to principles to the point where we just

605
00:47:54,905 --> 00:48:00,225
can't ever do anything even if it's quite beneficial in other ways and so the other thing

606
00:48:00,225 --> 00:48:04,385
on that is like you say they'll unlock after year after a year because it's a temporary soft fork but

607
00:48:04,385 --> 00:48:09,465
like is that a bit of trust me bro in the temporary side of things not at all that's a very common one

608
00:48:09,465 --> 00:48:13,985
because it feels like a government measure and there's nothing more permanent than a temporary

609
00:48:13,985 --> 00:48:19,905
government measure but it's not there's no unilateral extension of it it is what it is if

610
00:48:19,905 --> 00:48:26,385
people accept BIP-110, they accept the time limit of it too. I have no special power. If I had the

611
00:48:26,385 --> 00:48:33,845
power to extend BIP-110 unilaterally, or a small group of us did, beyond the 12 months, then I would

612
00:48:33,845 --> 00:48:39,085
have activated it today in the first place. I don't have that kind of power or influence. Bitcoiners

613
00:48:39,085 --> 00:48:45,005
ultimately would have to agree to it and enforce it beyond the 12-month period. And if they do that,

614
00:48:45,005 --> 00:48:50,605
then it was probably really good and it wasn't breaking anything but the the expiry to me is

615
00:48:50,605 --> 00:48:56,505
just so we can get something done in a timely capacity that doesn't get bike shed for you know

616
00:48:56,505 --> 00:49:02,745
for the next 10 years because we don't have that much time and i think it's more just like who's

617
00:49:02,745 --> 00:49:07,545
who's driving this thing who's what direction are we going it's grabbing the wheel and saying all

618
00:49:07,545 --> 00:49:13,005
right we're turning around like it's not it's not it doesn't need to be the most elegant thing ever

619
00:49:13,005 --> 00:49:18,265
and that's why it works and that's why it's capable of establishing a shelling point and for people to

620
00:49:18,265 --> 00:49:22,385
go you know what this is good enough and i don't think anyone should sit here and pretend that it's

621
00:49:22,385 --> 00:49:27,345
a beautifully elegant fork that does everything that needs to be done it's crude and that's why

622
00:49:27,345 --> 00:49:33,165
it's temporary but it is temporary and i don't i think at the end of the 12 months if people

623
00:49:33,165 --> 00:49:38,205
decide to continue certain aspects of it there will be another fork proposed that would do that

624
00:49:38,205 --> 00:49:44,865
so yeah i really do want to stress i do not have i wish i did but i do not have the power to to

625
00:49:44,865 --> 00:49:48,905
unilaterally say all right we're carrying on past 12 months boys and then everyone just did it

626
00:49:48,905 --> 00:49:53,565
i don't think i don't think anyone could do that unless it genuinely just was good and lots of us

627
00:49:53,565 --> 00:49:58,885
agreed that it was good and and so when is so you at first you're trying to do this as like a minor

628
00:49:58,885 --> 00:50:05,485
activated soft fork um let's actually start with that because you have a is it a 55 threshold that

629
00:50:05,485 --> 00:50:12,145
you're trying to hit uh that yeah if you hit 55 in any difficulty epoch then it activates

630
00:50:12,145 --> 00:50:17,505
so why have you gone 55 when normally it's like an overwhelming majority of like 90 plus percent

631
00:50:17,505 --> 00:50:25,465
um i mean i will stress that wasn't my decision like so it's not a thing when i say you i'm

632
00:50:25,465 --> 00:50:33,405
talking about like yeah yeah i don't know because it gets enforced as a user activated software

633
00:50:33,405 --> 00:50:39,985
regardless of that and i think the bigger you go with it the trouble is like foundry regularly hit

634
00:50:39,985 --> 00:50:47,605
like 35 40 so the the problem with mining being so centralized is that if you have like these

635
00:50:47,605 --> 00:50:53,605
very comfortable thresholds that are like near 100 you just get one guy like wang chun from

636
00:50:53,605 --> 00:50:58,265
f2 pool who's like no i'm not activating screw you or they even like what he did in segwit he

637
00:50:58,265 --> 00:51:02,845
started signaling for segwit and then turned it off again and was like troll lol like he's just

638
00:51:02,845 --> 00:51:10,645
I don't want the network to be like held to ransom by trolls. Like I can't, I don't think it's good.

639
00:51:10,725 --> 00:51:15,085
I don't think that's a good idea. Like if mining was decentralized, then I think it would make sense

640
00:51:15,085 --> 00:51:19,945
to have a much higher threshold. But in its current state, it's kind of a farce anyway. A miner

641
00:51:19,945 --> 00:51:26,685
activated soft fork, like I said at the beginning of the rip, if Foundry and Antpool decided to go,

642
00:51:26,685 --> 00:51:32,045
all right, 55% and we'll do it and turn it on. And there was clearly massive pushback rather

643
00:51:32,045 --> 00:51:38,185
than ambivalence from the community, I would not consider that a good precedent at all. And I would

644
00:51:38,185 --> 00:51:42,605
consider that a Faustian bargain. And if people said, you know, you're working for Ocean, you're

645
00:51:42,605 --> 00:51:46,985
against centralization of mining, and here you are using a fork that was activated by two companies,

646
00:51:47,345 --> 00:51:53,725
I would say fair dues. That's a fair thing to call me out on. So I'm not pushing for that.

647
00:51:54,845 --> 00:52:01,265
I think minor thresholds, it's just an artifact of Bitcoin. You always have this beautiful,

648
00:52:01,265 --> 00:52:06,565
graceful way of activating a fork where miners can do it by flipping version bits. And then it's

649
00:52:06,565 --> 00:52:12,645
so much more objective. And everyone agrees it started at block height X. This is very elegant.

650
00:52:12,645 --> 00:52:16,605
And it's why we always do soft forks with that kind of approach. It wasn't always done that way,

651
00:52:16,665 --> 00:52:21,925
but it almost always is now. But you never want to put them in a position where they have

652
00:52:21,925 --> 00:52:27,445
too much influence over the rules of the protocol because miners can't. The whole reason Bitcoin

653
00:52:27,445 --> 00:52:32,625
works is because they don't get a choice in their 50% pay cut every four years. They have no say in

654
00:52:32,625 --> 00:52:37,545
the matter. And when we start giving them a say in the matter, it creates problems. But we still do

655
00:52:37,545 --> 00:52:42,305
it because we can't help ourselves because it's so elegant. If they all decide it's active at

656
00:52:42,305 --> 00:52:48,805
block height X because we signaled with 55% within this epoch, then there's just no ambiguity around

657
00:52:48,805 --> 00:52:55,705
it. And we like that because it's elegant. But with Bit.10, unlike SegWit and unlike how Taproot

658
00:52:55,705 --> 00:53:02,885
was, you know, at least how Core activated it with a speedy trial, there is no option for Minus to

659
00:53:02,885 --> 00:53:08,445
say no. There is just the option for them to activate it whenever they like, if they decide,

660
00:53:08,725 --> 00:53:15,825
but they can't delay it beyond August the 7th. Okay, I'm going to come back to this. I'm sorry,

661
00:53:15,885 --> 00:53:18,905
I'm jumping around a little bit, but I meant to ask a follow-up question on the BitVM thing before,

662
00:53:18,905 --> 00:53:25,165
because you said they still can operate on this. How? Do they have to get their proofs

663
00:53:25,165 --> 00:53:26,345
under a certain number of bytes?

664
00:53:26,525 --> 00:53:28,145
And is that actually going to be possible?

665
00:53:29,105 --> 00:53:31,305
So I'm not an expert in BitVM.

666
00:53:31,845 --> 00:53:34,525
As far as I know, from SuperTestNet,

667
00:53:34,625 --> 00:53:37,105
who has self-declared, he's pretty respected,

668
00:53:37,345 --> 00:53:39,985
and he's a self-proclaimed expert in BitVM.

669
00:53:40,425 --> 00:53:43,585
He told me not only does it not break BitVM,

670
00:53:43,585 --> 00:53:45,445
it makes no difference to it at all.

671
00:53:45,805 --> 00:53:47,665
So I think it breaks BitVM1,

672
00:53:48,065 --> 00:53:49,685
but no one cares about that anymore

673
00:53:49,685 --> 00:53:51,885
because we're onto BitVM2 and BitVM3.

674
00:53:52,285 --> 00:53:54,485
So in BitVM3, I think everything is,

675
00:53:54,485 --> 00:53:59,265
I think it's all done client-side. All of the proofs and calculations are done client-side,

676
00:53:59,425 --> 00:54:04,805
and it all gets wrapped up into one leaf. I might be talking out on my rear end here, I don't know,

677
00:54:05,065 --> 00:54:10,825
but I'm deferring to people, like SupertestNet is not in favor of Bit.110, and he's told me

678
00:54:10,825 --> 00:54:15,765
it does not break BitVM, because I came out and said it was a trade-off and an unfortunate aspect

679
00:54:15,765 --> 00:54:22,085
of Bit.110, and he said you're wrong about that, it doesn't break Bit.110. So I'm very happy to

680
00:54:22,085 --> 00:54:26,265
take him at his word there. I think it breaks old versions of it, but I don't think anyone cares

681
00:54:26,265 --> 00:54:30,865
about those. Okay. I just wanted to clear that up before we moved on. All right. So when it comes to

682
00:54:30,865 --> 00:54:35,105
this like minor signaling, like it probably, it doesn't look likely that you're going to get 55%

683
00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:41,785
anyway. Is that fair? No, I have no idea what's going to happen there. I think soft forks are one

684
00:54:41,785 --> 00:54:46,065
of those things that just look insane and stupid and then suddenly they win. Like I wouldn't,

685
00:54:46,065 --> 00:54:52,325
That's the game theory of it, and we also have practical ramification of, not ramification,

686
00:54:52,765 --> 00:54:59,685
we have a sort of a case study of that. BIP-148 really did look really stupid. A lot of people

687
00:54:59,685 --> 00:55:07,525
kind of that didn't have much to do with it at the time may celebrate it today and wear UASF hats

688
00:55:07,525 --> 00:55:12,645
and things like that, but at the time it really was just a few of us looking like idiots, just

689
00:55:12,645 --> 00:55:17,645
like BIP-110 does now. The burden of the whole thing is I have to look really stupid because

690
00:55:17,645 --> 00:55:22,685
everyone's saying your fork's going to fail, you're a loser, all this stuff. That's fine. I'm

691
00:55:22,685 --> 00:55:29,565
happy to carry that. But I'm just saying that's how BIP-148 went as well. Everyone was laughing

692
00:55:29,565 --> 00:55:34,285
at us. You're stupid. There was more support amongst smaller businesses. And like the one

693
00:55:34,285 --> 00:55:38,725
I mentioned before, Bull Bitcoin, they did support it. And there was a few statements from meetups

694
00:55:38,725 --> 00:55:45,385
and things like that. But again, I talk back to the comment on culture. The businesses are a lot

695
00:55:45,385 --> 00:55:51,425
larger and a lot more risk averse these days. And again, it's not that they think Bit.1.10 is bad,

696
00:55:51,525 --> 00:55:55,825
it's that they do not want to touch it because it's reputational kryptonite. If, you know,

697
00:55:55,925 --> 00:56:00,025
if bull Bitcoin comes out today and says we're running a Bit.1.10 node, then they have to deal

698
00:56:00,025 --> 00:56:04,385
with flame wars and trolls and people attacking them all day on Twitter and they got work to do.

699
00:56:04,725 --> 00:56:07,905
I understand why they want to avoid that, but it doesn't mean they're against it.

700
00:56:07,905 --> 00:56:14,245
so I think it looks crazy until it doesn't that's what happened with BIP-148 and there was that

701
00:56:14,245 --> 00:56:21,805
famous sort of political concession where James Hilliard wrote BIP-91 which replicated BIP-148

702
00:56:21,805 --> 00:56:27,545
and then the miners all ran that instead and then they complied with BIP-148 and in the final weeks

703
00:56:27,545 --> 00:56:33,265
of July suddenly BIP-148 won when it looked like it wouldn't and there was only like 500 nodes

704
00:56:33,265 --> 00:56:40,225
running bit.48 back then. It was tiny. There's way more than that running bit.10. And I mean,

705
00:56:40,325 --> 00:56:46,045
I know the node stats are not fully reliable, but I know a lot of people that genuinely run it.

706
00:56:46,045 --> 00:56:50,905
And I know that a lot of the lesser statistics as well that are ignored, like the umbral downloads,

707
00:56:51,205 --> 00:56:55,945
for example, who's paying attention and gaming the umbral downloads of the latest version of

708
00:56:55,945 --> 00:57:00,605
Nots? I don't think anyone is, and I've watched it grow quite organically. We released the last

709
00:57:00,605 --> 00:57:05,785
version of Notts on Friday, which finally contained Bit.1.10, because it was always a third-party

710
00:57:05,785 --> 00:57:13,785
implementation until Friday. Now it's in Notts proper. And Umbral finally released the option

711
00:57:13,785 --> 00:57:19,365
to update to that last Friday, and there's been around 1,700, 1,800 downloads of it since then.

712
00:57:20,285 --> 00:57:25,125
I consider that mostly sincere. I don't think that's people Sybil attacking, because people

713
00:57:25,125 --> 00:57:30,445
Sybil attacking the node counts on the Bitcoin network do so in a VPS, and they, you know,

714
00:57:30,445 --> 00:57:33,185
They're not going to use stuff like Umbrell, a node in a box.

715
00:57:33,245 --> 00:57:34,145
It's way too inefficient.

716
00:57:34,365 --> 00:57:35,585
So I think those are real users.

717
00:57:36,265 --> 00:57:39,145
And you can say they're not economic nodes, but I don't know how you define that.

718
00:57:39,525 --> 00:57:40,725
Do they have a Lightning node?

719
00:57:40,805 --> 00:57:41,465
Are they using it?

720
00:57:41,685 --> 00:57:43,205
Do they have a Sparrow wallet they connected?

721
00:57:43,545 --> 00:57:44,625
That's an economic node.

722
00:57:45,005 --> 00:57:47,645
They might not be Coinbase, but they're still real.

723
00:57:48,065 --> 00:57:52,325
So there's thousands of people running Bit.10, and that's real.

724
00:57:53,025 --> 00:57:56,045
And those people, depending on how committed they are,

725
00:57:56,045 --> 00:58:02,965
are quite prepared, presumably, to throw blocks in the garbage come August if they're not enforcing

726
00:58:02,965 --> 00:58:09,625
Bit.10. So on the other side, you don't have any kind of, we hate Bit.10 and we're going to resist

727
00:58:09,625 --> 00:58:15,605
it and we're going to actively oppose it. You don't have that on the other side. You just have

728
00:58:15,605 --> 00:58:21,345
ambivalence. And every large miner I've spoken to when it comes to Bit.10 just says, what's this?

729
00:58:21,445 --> 00:58:25,945
Do I need to do anything? They're never like, we hate this and we're against it and we're going to

730
00:58:25,945 --> 00:58:31,905
URSF it. So that being the case, once you get a few miners, like we had a block today from a new

731
00:58:31,905 --> 00:58:37,605
miner called SOV, and we've had, you know, 234 Alberta, and we've had barefoot mining. These are

732
00:58:37,605 --> 00:58:43,765
small, but not insignificant miners. SOV has a couple of ex-ash, right? They're sitting at 0.3%

733
00:58:43,765 --> 00:58:48,925
of the whole network. That's not nothing. And I don't know if that's the whole fleet or not. Maybe

734
00:58:48,925 --> 00:58:54,265
they have, you know, single digit percentages of the whole network. Once a few of them go,

735
00:58:54,265 --> 00:58:59,785
for everyone else they might as well go on board too because otherwise they're just running a bunch

736
00:58:59,785 --> 00:59:05,205
of pointless risk for in order to oppose something that they don't actually have any quarrel with

737
00:59:05,205 --> 00:59:12,405
i don't think there's any most bitcoiners if they are not advocates of bit.10 don't care so that

738
00:59:12,405 --> 00:59:18,865
means they'll just go along with it because they have no yeah i'll round off there i think we look

739
00:59:18,865 --> 00:59:23,585
at this the same thing from a different perspective like i think you see silence as potential support

740
00:59:23,585 --> 00:59:26,185
and I see silence as potential resistance.

741
00:59:27,205 --> 00:59:28,565
And the truth will be in the middle.

742
00:59:28,745 --> 00:59:30,365
Like some people will be on either side of this.

743
00:59:30,565 --> 00:59:32,785
But like what I want to know is what happened?

744
00:59:32,905 --> 00:59:34,485
Like, so let's just assume,

745
00:59:34,885 --> 00:59:36,005
and you might say I'm wrong here,

746
00:59:36,005 --> 00:59:38,525
but I'm going to assume that you don't reach 55%

747
00:59:38,525 --> 00:59:40,505
and get this as a minor activated soft fork

748
00:59:40,505 --> 00:59:43,065
and that you end up doing like a user activated soft fork.

749
00:59:43,285 --> 00:59:45,065
And what happens after that?

750
00:59:45,145 --> 00:59:47,325
Like if you don't have many people

751
00:59:47,325 --> 00:59:49,005
building on top of this chain,

752
00:59:49,165 --> 00:59:51,005
like what do you get orphaned off the network?

753
00:59:51,105 --> 00:59:51,785
Like what happens?

754
00:59:51,785 --> 00:59:59,125
So the chain split scenarios are like technical rabbit holes and they're fun to go down, but I think they're really unrealistic.

755
00:59:59,125 --> 01:00:08,805
I think the two most likely scenarios are BIP 110 completely dies and there's never a block on that UASF activated chain.

756
01:00:09,225 --> 01:00:11,605
But I think that's the lesser of the two scenarios.

757
01:00:11,845 --> 01:00:20,445
I think what happens is as you come up to that height, the tension rises, the temperature rises, more conversations start happening.

758
01:00:20,445 --> 01:00:25,025
and the prisoner's dilemma type scenarios start kicking off.

759
01:00:25,405 --> 01:00:27,705
Because at the end of the day, if you're foundry or ant pool,

760
01:00:27,805 --> 01:00:30,025
you need to be ready for it to activate.

761
01:00:30,385 --> 01:00:34,965
Because if the other pool activates it and you're not ready to activate it,

762
01:00:35,025 --> 01:00:37,005
you're mining on a chain that can get wiped out.

763
01:00:37,005 --> 01:00:42,225
And this is a very important point about the asymmetry of soft fork enforcement.

764
01:00:42,805 --> 01:00:47,025
So when you said what I view as ambivalence, you view as resistance,

765
01:00:47,025 --> 01:00:53,505
the problem is resistance is not the same thing as ambivalence because ambivalence to any consensus

766
01:00:53,505 --> 01:00:58,225
rule in bitcoin means you're going along with it if you don't like a consensus rule in bitcoin

767
01:00:58,225 --> 01:01:04,365
not talking about how enforced they are for the moment you have no choice but to go along with it

768
01:01:04,365 --> 01:01:09,225
you might not like the you know the one megabyte block size limit but that doesn't mean you get to

769
01:01:09,225 --> 01:01:14,125
pretend it doesn't exist you have to to get along with everyone else so this is a very important

770
01:01:14,125 --> 01:01:18,845
point of it the pools can let me just ask a question on that because why why why do they have

771
01:01:18,845 --> 01:01:22,865
to go along with it why wouldn't they just keep like keep going on bitcoin as we know it today

772
01:01:22,865 --> 01:01:27,225
because they need everyone else to agree to do that too and if they don't then they can end up

773
01:01:27,225 --> 01:01:33,605
on a dead chain but the vast majority does agree with that agree with what ignoring agree with

774
01:01:33,605 --> 01:01:47,957
bitcoin as it is today like i think the vast majority of people are not in support of bitcoin you have to you have to just project forward a bit if your foundry and I don know how close these companies are right Let just talk in game theory abstracts If your foundry and

775
01:01:47,957 --> 01:01:53,998
Antpool's looking for a way to screw you, if Antpool's ready for Bit.10 and they activate it,

776
01:01:54,718 --> 01:01:58,998
say they're 25, 30 percent, all right, Antpool's actually more like 40 percent with all its little

777
01:01:58,998 --> 01:02:06,318
sub pools. If the fork height hits and unbeknownst to you, they now start enforcing this, then your

778
01:02:06,318 --> 01:02:14,098
blockchain where you were ignoring it slows down to 60% of what it was, which means the minute

779
01:02:14,098 --> 01:02:19,758
ant pool gets longer than you, it wipes out your chain because you will accept all the bit.110

780
01:02:19,758 --> 01:02:24,638
blocks. They don't break any of the existing rules. That is an enormously risky position to

781
01:02:24,638 --> 01:02:31,358
put yourself in. So if that scenario were to happen, you want to be the one that brings it about.

782
01:02:31,358 --> 01:02:37,438
and if either side has done this calculation they realize they have no choice but to go along with it

783
01:02:37,438 --> 01:02:43,477
that's i don't know if that is well enough explained but you can't it is a classic

784
01:02:43,477 --> 01:02:47,957
prisoner's dilemma situation where you need to be sure that the other person is going to do

785
01:02:47,957 --> 01:02:52,878
the thing that doesn't cause you to risk having your blocks wiped out and if you can't be sure of

786
01:02:52,878 --> 01:02:57,398
that then you need to be the one putting them in danger and then they assume you're putting you

787
01:02:57,398 --> 01:03:02,238
that you're putting them in danger and they want to put you in danger. And then all that happens is

788
01:03:02,238 --> 01:03:06,338
everyone enforces the rules of BIP-110 because no one wants to risk being on a chain that can get

789
01:03:06,338 --> 01:03:12,818
wiped out. And if there's no indication about anything, like even if the CEOs meet and say,

790
01:03:12,818 --> 01:03:16,538
don't worry, we'll ignore this stupid fault. We don't like it. The minute the backs turned,

791
01:03:16,618 --> 01:03:22,538
they might just think they were lying to each other. And this is a very real fact of the matter

792
01:03:22,538 --> 01:03:26,498
about the dynamics of soft fork activation.

793
01:03:27,118 --> 01:03:29,318
And there has been concern raised about this

794
01:03:29,318 --> 01:03:30,538
because what if someone comes up

795
01:03:30,538 --> 01:03:31,957
with a really awful soft fork?

796
01:03:32,318 --> 01:03:35,678
Can a minority always get a soft fork activated in Bitcoin

797
01:03:35,678 --> 01:03:36,858
just because of these dynamics?

798
01:03:37,598 --> 01:03:40,198
And I'm saying, yeah, actually they can.

799
01:03:40,278 --> 01:03:41,738
And that's why you have to be prepared

800
01:03:41,738 --> 01:03:44,618
to actively resist it, which no one is doing.

801
01:03:44,898 --> 01:03:47,298
You need a URSF to commit to a chain

802
01:03:47,298 --> 01:03:49,198
that cannot be wiped out by Bit.10.

803
01:03:49,738 --> 01:03:51,698
And there's no energy around that.

804
01:03:51,698 --> 01:03:57,618
so it's either it kind of wins in all scenarios and it sounds crazy to say that given what a

805
01:03:57,618 --> 01:04:03,138
fringe movement it seems like at the moment but unless people can actually coalesce around

806
01:04:03,138 --> 01:04:08,957
resisting it and saying we can't get wiped out by bit 110 because we are going to intentionally

807
01:04:08,957 --> 01:04:15,198
reject that soft fork with a counter fork unless you can get energy around that your best strategy

808
01:04:15,198 --> 01:04:19,178
is ignoring it and hoping it goes away and the problem with ignoring it and hoping it goes away

809
01:04:19,178 --> 01:04:24,938
is that other people might not. And if they don't, then you get these last minute, like I said,

810
01:04:25,158 --> 01:04:32,018
super charged, you know, emotionally, emotional conversations in late July, where everyone's

811
01:04:32,018 --> 01:04:37,138
throwing things at each other. Some people choose to start activating. And then at that point,

812
01:04:37,218 --> 01:04:41,678
everyone else just goes, all right, well, do I hate this thing enough to actually URSF it?

813
01:04:41,678 --> 01:04:46,318
Or shall I just go along with it? And then the price stops falling. I think that's realistically

814
01:04:46,318 --> 01:04:51,098
scenario we get into so you're obviously like optimistic on your side of this works like

815
01:04:51,098 --> 01:04:55,918
personally from my side i i can't see it like i think people will just ignore it but like

816
01:04:55,918 --> 01:05:03,198
time will tell um if they do ignore it what happens like do you hard fork i don't know what

817
01:05:03,198 --> 01:05:07,598
people would want to do in that scenario if if everyone ignores it and their chain carries on

818
01:05:07,598 --> 01:05:14,158
you know for if there's nothing suspicious going on right like if if foundry ignores it when we hit

819
01:05:14,158 --> 01:05:19,758
the block height and there's suspiciously no blocks from ant pool for four hours or something

820
01:05:19,758 --> 01:05:25,938
like that then that's not enough to concede defeat and that's going to be extremely uncomfortable for

821
01:05:25,938 --> 01:05:30,738
foundry if the major pools are all mining blocks and carrying on as though nothing happened

822
01:05:30,738 --> 01:05:37,957
i think i would be in a very disillusioned state because at that point the miners essentially said

823
01:05:37,957 --> 01:05:42,518
there's a bunch of nodes enforcing a rule we decided not to care about those rules

824
01:05:43,158 --> 01:05:45,898
I don't know what threshold the nodes have to hit

825
01:05:45,898 --> 01:05:47,178
before they become respected,

826
01:05:47,477 --> 01:05:49,598
but clearly BIP110 wouldn't have been high enough.

827
01:05:50,178 --> 01:05:52,298
And unfortunately, you can extrapolate from that

828
01:05:52,298 --> 01:05:53,878
and say the nodes actually don't matter.

829
01:05:54,278 --> 01:05:55,878
And a lot of people really don't think they do.

830
01:05:55,957 --> 01:05:58,118
They just say, look, if the miners activate it,

831
01:05:58,178 --> 01:05:58,977
it's a rule.

832
01:05:59,078 --> 01:06:00,198
If they don't, it's not.

833
01:06:00,838 --> 01:06:03,298
At that point, the next halving is done, in my opinion,

834
01:06:03,558 --> 01:06:06,038
because the miners are just going to do what they did in 2012

835
01:06:06,038 --> 01:06:07,718
and say, we're ignoring the halving

836
01:06:07,718 --> 01:06:09,618
and we don't care about a bunch of nodes

837
01:06:09,618 --> 01:06:12,498
telling us that we have to have a 50% pay cut.

838
01:06:12,518 --> 01:06:19,078
i'm pretty sure that uh the next halving would be called into question and because you also have

839
01:06:19,078 --> 01:06:25,238
so strongly on that though like i i think that's a way too big extrapolation to make because like

840
01:06:25,238 --> 01:06:30,038
the if the miners did that like they what they care about obviously they want to make revenue

841
01:06:30,038 --> 01:06:34,638
but what they care about is the price of bitcoin going up as well and like if they did that they

842
01:06:34,638 --> 01:06:40,038
have basically completely broken bitcoin what is the like what happens to the price of bitcoin what

843
01:06:40,038 --> 01:06:42,778
happens to their business. I think that's a way bigger risk than anything else.

844
01:06:42,898 --> 01:06:46,518
I don't think they would have broken it. I think they just would have called the network's bluff

845
01:06:46,518 --> 01:06:52,378
and said it is broken because the only reason we accept this pay cut is, first off, I don't think

846
01:06:52,378 --> 01:07:01,358
miners are really that cognizant of what keeps the network appearing healthy. Sorry to say.

847
01:07:01,758 --> 01:07:07,457
But there's also developer push for this stuff. The transaction fee argument didn't work out.

848
01:07:07,457 --> 01:07:13,038
right that miners aren't making any money they're making 250 grand in subsidy and 50 cents from

849
01:07:13,038 --> 01:07:18,477
transaction fees right i'm exaggerating a little bit but it's it's ridiculous and you have peter

850
01:07:18,477 --> 01:07:25,198
todd who was one of the main brains behind blowing out spam filters saying 21 million is a stupid

851
01:07:25,198 --> 01:07:30,258
meme and it's something that idiot bitcoin is having tattooed on themselves but it doesn't work

852
01:07:30,258 --> 01:07:35,658
satoshi made a mistake economically okay so he's getting pushback from people like greg maxwell and

853
01:07:35,658 --> 01:07:42,518
stuff. But he maintains that just because it's politically impossible today to break 21 million

854
01:07:42,518 --> 01:07:46,998
doesn't mean it will be in the future. And if people can be given a sufficient scare story

855
01:07:46,998 --> 01:07:53,158
about, hey, look, hash rate death spiral, blah, blah, blah, from, you know, the subsidy is too low.

856
01:07:54,078 --> 01:07:58,418
People can be scared by things like that. And people are compelled by having a very,

857
01:07:58,418 --> 01:08:03,838
very high difficulty as a result of a very, very high hash rate. And you maintain that by

858
01:08:03,838 --> 01:08:08,618
throwing lots of money at miners. And if you're not getting that from subsidy anymore, I don't

859
01:08:08,618 --> 01:08:14,918
know. I can see a new generation of Bitcoiners not having any kind of, like, it seems inconceivable

860
01:08:14,918 --> 01:08:21,417
to you today. I get that. But I can see in four years, eight years, 12 years, the culture completely

861
01:08:21,417 --> 01:08:25,658
changing to the point where everyone's like, no, no, Bitcoin needs to have a steady inflation rate.

862
01:08:25,738 --> 01:08:29,198
Otherwise, the miners won't get paid and, you know, there'll be no security for the network.

863
01:08:29,198 --> 01:08:33,018
The security budget is a meme. Like, it's not that big yet, but it's a meme.

864
01:08:33,018 --> 01:08:39,317
but i i just like i see this as fear-mongering like i think i think you're trying to say that

865
01:08:39,317 --> 01:08:43,778
like bitcoin is like existentially broken if this doesn't happen because like when even when you say

866
01:08:43,778 --> 01:08:48,278
like developers are talking about this i think that's way too broad a book brush like peter todd

867
01:08:48,278 --> 01:08:51,278
is talking about this i don't think anyone else is and i don't think anyone's taking it that

868
01:08:51,278 --> 01:08:56,917
seriously um and and if anyone did try and change that rule then that would take that would have some

869
01:08:56,917 --> 01:09:04,438
serious backlash, way bigger than like Bitcoin 10. I think that you'd be surprised. Like I honestly

870
01:09:04,438 --> 01:09:10,837
just think in 10 years, a lot can change. And I honestly, the fear mongering comment, I view it,

871
01:09:10,837 --> 01:09:15,317
the fear mongering is the concern around security budget. I don't think there is a concern around

872
01:09:15,317 --> 01:09:20,598
security budget. I think Bitcoin is long term hodlers mining. I ultimately think that's what's

873
01:09:20,598 --> 01:09:24,518
going to secure it. I don't think mining is fundamentally supposed to be a profitable thing.

874
01:09:24,518 --> 01:09:26,977
and most of the giant companies that do it are in the red.

875
01:09:27,317 --> 01:09:31,718
So it's basically how cheap credit can you access

876
01:09:31,718 --> 01:09:33,837
and how much can you scam shareholders.

877
01:09:34,138 --> 01:09:36,817
It's never, oh, we actually made some calculated decisions

878
01:09:36,817 --> 01:09:39,218
and we're able to turn a profit every month.

879
01:09:39,618 --> 01:09:42,898
Most companies that can mine, can produce Bitcoin

880
01:09:42,898 --> 01:09:46,857
for cheaper than buying its spot by paying less in electricity.

881
01:09:47,458 --> 01:09:50,158
They just usually bamboozle you by never telling you

882
01:09:50,158 --> 01:09:51,018
the cost of the hardware.

883
01:09:51,877 --> 01:09:53,477
It's kind of that nuts.

884
01:09:53,477 --> 01:10:08,958
But, look, point taken, I don't mean to pontificate in that too much. It could never happen. And Bitcoiners could be very adamant that the next halving must happen and they could never fall for some political narrative about how it should be cancelled and we should reintroduce Keynesian economics and all that stuff.

885
01:10:08,958 --> 01:10:14,758
I'm pretty black-pilled so I can see people going down that path but I'm not gonna like you could

886
01:10:14,758 --> 01:10:19,538
you could very well be right about that and I could just be being overly pessimistic so back

887
01:10:19,538 --> 01:10:25,658
to the point around what happens if it fails yeah I think that would that would herald the failure of

888
01:10:25,658 --> 01:10:33,498
the the hierarchy in Bitcoin I think if not if if a bunch of like pleb node hodlers can't bring

889
01:10:33,498 --> 01:10:37,798
about the activation of new rules because they can't get over the inertia of the general Bitcoin

890
01:10:37,798 --> 01:10:41,798
I think it would have lost something and I think it wouldn't be immediately obvious overnight.

891
01:10:42,158 --> 01:10:44,538
I think Bitcoin would carry on like nothing happened for a while.

892
01:10:45,317 --> 01:10:49,678
And then five years from now, everyone would just be like, do you remember when we used to say Bitcoin, not crypto?

893
01:10:49,977 --> 01:10:55,398
And now the blockchain is just one long, you know, history of stablecoin transactions.

894
01:10:55,877 --> 01:11:00,738
And like, like, I just think it would, those things you never get there in one night.

895
01:11:00,798 --> 01:11:03,038
It's always just, how did it get so shitty?

896
01:11:03,158 --> 01:11:05,977
Like the center of your town, it was good five years ago.

897
01:11:05,977 --> 01:11:13,178
it sucks now no one really knows what law changed or what happened but it just sucks now but i think

898
01:11:13,178 --> 01:11:20,038
that's basically what my assertion would be for bitcoin so if um if you make this change and the

899
01:11:20,038 --> 01:11:24,198
miners don't come across so there's obviously a few people mining signaling for bit 110 now but

900
01:11:24,198 --> 01:11:28,377
it's like i don't know let's say it's one two percent of the network of the hash rate like

901
01:11:28,377 --> 01:11:33,658
that's optimistic i'll be honest it's not even that but it's suddenly it went up to 2x a hash

902
01:11:33,658 --> 01:11:40,498
from like 200 per hash. So it 10x'd last night. So is that people like renting hash rate? Is that

903
01:11:40,498 --> 01:11:47,018
where that's coming from? Sov, which was the miner that found a block last night,

904
01:11:47,838 --> 01:11:53,817
if I did know who they were and what they were, like Ocean's permissionless, right? We don't have

905
01:11:53,817 --> 01:11:57,578
accounts or any of that stuff. So it's not appropriate for me to talk about. Unfortunately,

906
01:11:58,158 --> 01:12:03,338
I can talk about, you know, some useful heuristics. A lot of people have rented hash rate.

907
01:12:03,658 --> 01:12:07,698
and they've been unbelievably unlucky, and you're just going to have to take my word for this,

908
01:12:07,738 --> 01:12:15,638
because this is all Ocean's back end. They found, between the last block 234 Alberta found,

909
01:12:15,738 --> 01:12:20,338
and the one at SOV found last night, they found a quadrillion shares, which is enough to find

910
01:12:20,338 --> 01:12:26,338
around seven or eight blocks, and they found none in that time, which was super unlucky.

911
01:12:26,877 --> 01:12:32,578
So realistically, with the hash rate, around four exahash at the moment, which is about half a

912
01:12:32,578 --> 01:12:38,538
percent of the whole network signaling bit.110 at least through ocean there might be more signaling

913
01:12:38,538 --> 01:12:44,138
for it in lotto pools and stuff like that we don't know but there's around 4x hash pointed at bit.110

914
01:12:44,138 --> 01:12:49,317
at the moment around you know 0.4 percent of the network if you assume a zeta hash

915
01:12:49,317 --> 01:12:55,458
that should give you a couple of blocks a week right and that's enough for people to say all

916
01:12:55,458 --> 01:12:59,998
right i'll pay attention to this thing if it grows i'll need to pay attention and i do think that

917
01:12:59,998 --> 01:13:04,598
most of the, if it were to activate, most of the people that would go along with it aren't going

918
01:13:04,598 --> 01:13:09,138
to be diehard Bit.110 fans. They're going to be people that are like, oh yeah, this, I didn't want

919
01:13:09,138 --> 01:13:14,898
to think about it anymore. And this made it, this, this got rid of all the ambiguity. It just made

920
01:13:14,898 --> 01:13:19,618
everything a lot simpler. And I think that's what happened with Bit.148. I really do. Like,

921
01:13:20,238 --> 01:13:25,138
SegWit could have just been ignored and expired, but people forced the issue and everyone went,

922
01:13:25,138 --> 01:13:30,218
all right well if you're going to force the issue i'll just go along with it i i do genuinely think

923
01:13:30,218 --> 01:13:34,118
that's how things play out but the people renting hash rate they're like they're making a statement

924
01:13:34,118 --> 01:13:37,377
they're they're putting the money on the line to try and like signal for this but they're going to

925
01:13:37,377 --> 01:13:42,518
be losing money right so that that's not going to be sustainable in the long term no because like i

926
01:13:42,518 --> 01:13:49,198
said i think the network is ultimately secured not like a i don't think bitcoin mining is profitable

927
01:13:49,198 --> 01:13:54,238
because the minute it is profitable the difficulty goes up and it's not profitable anymore it's

928
01:13:54,238 --> 01:13:59,078
designed to lose money. And that's an uncomfortable truth, but a truth nonetheless.

929
01:14:00,138 --> 01:14:06,578
B, I want to mine. And if you've ever met anyone that owns a BitX, they want to mine as well. And

930
01:14:06,578 --> 01:14:12,798
renting hash rate is like a thousand times cheaper, you know, per terahash than buying a BitX.

931
01:14:12,977 --> 01:14:18,158
Obviously, it's not sovereign, but that's the final point, which is that's basically how...

932
01:14:18,158 --> 01:14:21,198
Yeah, right. Everyone has a BitX because it's fun and you want to mine.

933
01:14:21,198 --> 01:14:26,477
like yeah i mean i i do it knowing that this is almost certainly never going to make me any money

934
01:14:26,477 --> 01:14:31,058
i just do it because it's kind of a little cool but so do mara and so do so does everyone else

935
01:14:31,058 --> 01:14:37,317
that's the problem like if if if you can buy a bit axe and it costs you 200 000 sats and you only

936
01:14:37,317 --> 01:14:44,158
ever mine like 50 000 you're exactly the same to me as mara who will post a quarter losing 200

937
01:14:44,158 --> 01:14:50,698
million dollars like it's the same thing it's just that you don't get to split it up into chunks and

938
01:14:50,698 --> 01:14:55,518
be an executive that can walk away with a bunch of money while the shareholders all eat it like

939
01:14:55,518 --> 01:15:01,398
like it's mining is lossy and it's necessary to secure the network and plebs want hash rate

940
01:15:01,398 --> 01:15:07,718
and they're sick of look all love to scott 9000 in the bit axe project but i need some actual

941
01:15:07,718 --> 01:15:15,438
hash rate and i have no ideological issue well i i do have ideological issues with everything on

942
01:15:15,438 --> 01:15:19,817
the hardware side of mining but i have no practical issue with renting hash rate because

943
01:15:19,817 --> 01:15:25,798
it's how mining works. Foundry is a miner by any reasonable definition, and they're paying people

944
01:15:25,798 --> 01:15:30,777
to point compute at their servers. Foundry runs the node, they make the templates, they have the

945
01:15:30,777 --> 01:15:36,298
mempool, they broadcast blocks to the chain. They pay miners for high performance compute who

946
01:15:36,298 --> 01:15:40,718
couldn't care less. And we call them hashes, and those guys can all move into AI if they want,

947
01:15:40,777 --> 01:15:44,338
and many of them are, because they don't fundamentally care about what they're crunching

948
01:15:44,338 --> 01:15:50,277
in their centers. They just want to be told what to do, burn a bunch of electricity and get paid

949
01:15:50,277 --> 01:15:56,977
for it. That's it. And why should the people who want to mine Bitcoin that live in cities,

950
01:15:57,098 --> 01:16:02,218
who have no access to cheap electricity, not be able to take advantage of the fact that there's

951
01:16:02,218 --> 01:16:07,758
someone out there, a hasher, who will go to Odessa, Texas and get cheap power and set up a bunch of

952
01:16:07,758 --> 01:16:13,638
ant miners, and instead of pointing them at an FPPS pool, charges 1% more than they do to the pool,

953
01:16:13,638 --> 01:16:20,138
to make a pleb mine and have them point, you know, an exahash at their node. Like this is

954
01:16:20,138 --> 01:16:26,098
unbelievable power. Like you can, if you go on Brains and they're a rival pool, right? But if

955
01:16:26,098 --> 01:16:31,317
you go on Brains hash power, they've got three exahash there. That's 0.3% of the whole network.

956
01:16:31,317 --> 01:16:36,938
You rent the whole lot for fun, maybe burn, you know, maybe burn five grand for fun and rent

957
01:16:36,938 --> 01:16:43,538
three exahash. Rent 0.3% of the entire Bitcoin network for, you know, a few grand for fun and

958
01:16:43,538 --> 01:16:49,178
have it go through your umbrella sitting on your desk, you're just never going to experience that

959
01:16:49,178 --> 01:16:55,578
kind of power. If you're talking about percentages of it, that's like temporarily coming into custody

960
01:16:55,578 --> 01:17:02,958
of 150,000 bitcoins or something. That ratio versus 21 million, that's how much hash rate

961
01:17:02,958 --> 01:17:08,038
you can have. People say, well, it's not yours, it's not sovereign. That's the norm for mining,

962
01:17:08,158 --> 01:17:12,298
unfortunately. It would be great if everyone was running open hardware and all that stuff,

963
01:17:12,298 --> 01:17:17,458
but no one actually is like even the bit axes themselves they still use the closed design

964
01:17:17,458 --> 01:17:24,438
bitmain ASIC chips on them because there's no other game in town you can't beat that it's

965
01:17:24,438 --> 01:17:29,898
it's just so efficient yeah but so so in the scenario though where this happens and you'll

966
01:17:29,898 --> 01:17:33,658
have like some of the hash rate like I'm sure Bob Burnett he's going to be doing bit.110

967
01:17:33,658 --> 01:17:37,898
compliant blocks like there'll be there'll be the people renting hash rate you'll have an amount of

968
01:17:37,898 --> 01:17:42,817
the network let's just say it's like one percent um what happens then because like blocks are going

969
01:17:42,817 --> 01:17:47,098
to be found every i don't know 15 hours or something and like difficulty adjustment period

970
01:17:47,098 --> 01:17:51,738
will be huge like what what happens like what do you do you must have thought about this yeah for

971
01:17:51,738 --> 01:17:56,738
sure again i do think these are all theoretical scenarios i don't if it comes down to dire

972
01:17:56,738 --> 01:18:01,298
straits like that i think i think some of the bit.10 miners might just go like i can't do this

973
01:18:01,298 --> 01:18:07,178
and go back like that's very real scenario but i also don't think if it's like plebs renting and

974
01:18:07,178 --> 01:18:11,458
stuff. Like at the moment, they've managed to get 4x ash, right? So that's a couple of blocks a week.

975
01:18:11,698 --> 01:18:17,458
So you're looking at 50 weeks, a year, before you get a downwards difficulty adjustment of 25%,

976
01:18:17,458 --> 01:18:22,317
right? It's going to be difficult. But at the same time, they're mostly hodlers. And the transaction

977
01:18:22,317 --> 01:18:27,398
fee pressure can build up enough. Like, people are going to laugh at this. But the problem is,

978
01:18:27,438 --> 01:18:31,998
these are theoretical scenarios. So it makes sense to go over it. The transaction fee pressure would

979
01:18:31,998 --> 01:18:36,758
be insane if you're only finding two blocks a week. So miners could make a fortune. But is there

980
01:18:36,758 --> 01:18:42,317
even an exchange that lists it how would you even separate them because it's not a hard fork

981
01:18:42,317 --> 01:18:48,417
so having an exchange track both tokens would be pretty complicated and i don't know that any of

982
01:18:48,417 --> 01:18:55,357
them would so i don't know man like i i really don't think it's that likely i really do think

983
01:18:55,357 --> 01:18:59,917
that if it's like okay we're finding a fairly common amount of blocks now like there's three

984
01:18:59,917 --> 01:19:05,277
or four bit.10 blocks a day i don't know i think they all just start looking at each other and they

985
01:19:05,277 --> 01:19:12,838
go whoever blinks first wins basically like i know that sounds crazy but if we didn't have bit 148

986
01:19:12,838 --> 01:19:16,938
i would be like no you can't be right about any of this but we do have bit 148 so i'm like

987
01:19:16,938 --> 01:19:22,817
maybe we get lucky twice and the network works the way we actually think it does and think it should

988
01:19:22,817 --> 01:19:27,718
in that scenario though would you do something like an emergency difficulty adjustment like would

989
01:19:27,718 --> 01:19:32,538
you even potentially change the algo like i know luke has talked about firing the miners like would

990
01:19:32,538 --> 01:19:35,338
Would you take one of those more drastic steps?

991
01:19:35,338 --> 01:19:41,817
I don't know. Because first off, it's kind of a question of what everyone else is prepared to do as well.

992
01:19:42,078 --> 01:19:46,917
There's no point forking off by yourself, right? That's too reckless.

993
01:19:48,138 --> 01:19:52,058
And it depends if it's failing in that kind of way where you'd have those conversations.

994
01:19:52,578 --> 01:19:58,698
To be honest, I think discussions around power changes, they're totally valid, right?

995
01:19:58,698 --> 01:20:03,817
if Bitmain turned hostile to the network and we found out their stuff was backdoored again and,

996
01:20:03,998 --> 01:20:09,158
you know, they were like, you know, jerry-rigging stuff so that other pools were suffering and Antpool

997
01:20:09,158 --> 01:20:13,958
wasn't, you have to be prepared to do a proof-of-work change just to say, no, you're not in

998
01:20:13,958 --> 01:20:18,398
control of the network. Like, you have to be prepared for the nuclear option all the time,

999
01:20:18,438 --> 01:20:22,838
right? I think that's, and if you're scared of doing it just because you want stability and,

1000
01:20:22,838 --> 01:20:28,298
you know, reliability and all that stuff, then you're, you know, you're turning in your firearm.

1001
01:20:28,298 --> 01:20:33,258
so to speak. That's not a good idea. You need to remain willing to push the nuclear button

1002
01:20:33,258 --> 01:20:38,838
if the time ever calls for it. Like you have two miners that can do 51% attacks at the moment.

1003
01:20:39,277 --> 01:20:44,558
They are not big enough to do it successfully for long, but they're big enough that they can

1004
01:20:44,558 --> 01:20:48,678
really mess with things that they want. And if you're not prepared to say,

1005
01:20:48,898 --> 01:20:52,977
if you do something like that, we will take the network back by force,

1006
01:20:53,618 --> 01:20:58,277
then you're kind of just waiting for that day, right? And I don't want to not have

1007
01:20:58,277 --> 01:21:04,398
a trump card up our sleeve. So I'm not trying to be evasive. I don't know what I would do in that

1008
01:21:04,398 --> 01:21:10,317
scenario. And like I say, it really would depend on what other people do. Because I don't, I believe

1009
01:21:10,317 --> 01:21:15,558
Bitcoin is a community. And that's the only thing that makes it strong. And I wouldn't want to be

1010
01:21:15,558 --> 01:21:20,238
completely on my own with it because it's money and money's useless unless other people use it too.

1011
01:21:20,857 --> 01:21:26,118
So I don't know. I would love to give you some soundbites, some fun stuff like I'm going to do

1012
01:21:26,118 --> 01:21:30,618
this i'm going to do that and but i don't like being i don't i don't want to posture about it

1013
01:21:30,618 --> 01:21:35,098
i don't want to sit here and be like i'm going to do this and screw anyone like and beat my chest

1014
01:21:35,098 --> 01:21:39,398
about it i'd rather just be honest with you i don't know what's coming in that circumstance

1015
01:21:39,398 --> 01:21:45,158
i'm genuinely not like i'm not after soundbites here like i disagree with you on the bit 110 stuff

1016
01:21:45,158 --> 01:21:48,758
but i think you you're good for bitcoin like i don't want to see you end up hard forking and

1017
01:21:48,758 --> 01:21:53,558
like rage quitting bitcoin like that that wouldn't be a good outcome i don't think um but like if it

1018
01:21:53,558 --> 01:21:59,058
If it did go that far, if this hard fork, would you sell your Bitcoin and move over to this new thing?

1019
01:21:59,058 --> 01:22:07,058
To the hard fork? Again, it would depend. There might not be a lot of point.

1020
01:22:07,058 --> 01:22:15,398
I think, to be honest, most failure scenarios there's no recovery from. I think if Bit.110 fails, I don't think there's any

1021
01:22:15,445 --> 01:22:19,845
to salvage anything from the wreckage, I think Bitcoin itself would just carry on,

1022
01:22:20,165 --> 01:22:24,025
but I think the foundation would be gone in a way that's not immediately obvious.

1023
01:22:24,565 --> 01:22:28,745
And I think, and this is like a painful thing to admit,

1024
01:22:28,885 --> 01:22:32,505
but I think I basically would just withdraw from the space

1025
01:22:32,505 --> 01:22:39,025
because it's increasingly becoming a thing that I don't resonate with.

1026
01:22:39,465 --> 01:22:44,185
And I don't like, I'm in Bitcoin because I love it, not because of anything else, right?

1027
01:22:44,185 --> 01:22:48,185
I really love this thing and I'm very grateful to the people in it that have made it what it is.

1028
01:22:48,725 --> 01:22:51,225
And that's why I fight the way I do.

1029
01:22:52,245 --> 01:22:58,145
So if it were to come to that kind of situation where I think something really did need to be done

1030
01:22:58,145 --> 01:23:02,765
and it failed to pick up adoption and we just carried on like nothing happened,

1031
01:23:03,525 --> 01:23:05,445
I think that would spell the end for me.

1032
01:23:05,985 --> 01:23:09,145
I don't know, like, I have a job in the space.

1033
01:23:09,225 --> 01:23:12,325
I don't know what the ramifications with that would be and all that stuff.

1034
01:23:12,325 --> 01:23:14,825
But at the end of the day, I have a YouTube channel.

1035
01:23:15,245 --> 01:23:16,565
It's not monetized.

1036
01:23:16,805 --> 01:23:18,705
I don't make any money off it.

1037
01:23:19,265 --> 01:23:22,285
I'll make a video once every six months if I feel like it.

1038
01:23:22,545 --> 01:23:26,145
It's not like I only do it because I'm compelled to do it.

1039
01:23:26,305 --> 01:23:28,865
And I think the compulsion would stop at that point, right?

1040
01:23:29,625 --> 01:23:34,085
So I think it would be sad is basically the point of it.

1041
01:23:35,125 --> 01:23:36,525
I'm not going to sit here and be like,

1042
01:23:36,585 --> 01:23:37,805
oh, we're all going to die immediately.

1043
01:23:38,245 --> 01:23:41,445
I think it can be a thing that carries on in perpetuity.

1044
01:23:41,445 --> 01:23:47,585
but I just would lose the love for it I think you kind of answered partly one of my questions I was

1045
01:23:47,585 --> 01:23:51,805
going to ask is like if let's say this doesn't go the way you expect it or hope it to go like

1046
01:23:51,805 --> 01:23:56,705
do you have to do you leave ocean like if this if like bitcoin isn't the thing that you want it to

1047
01:23:56,705 --> 01:24:01,445
be like do you carry on that job like how how does your life change after this I don't know I'd have

1048
01:24:01,445 --> 01:24:09,525
to reanalyze it I mean if if I can find a silver lining I'll try and work with it you know like

1049
01:24:09,525 --> 01:24:17,785
if there's a way like there is a lot of unknown unknowns here and i'm very like call it like uh

1050
01:24:17,785 --> 01:24:22,645
sort of wisdom or whatever like rather than technical knowledge or anything i'm pretty sure

1051
01:24:22,645 --> 01:24:27,325
that something is going to happen in the next couple of months that's going to be very humiliating

1052
01:24:27,325 --> 01:24:33,625
for the people supporting bit.10 and the people against it i'm sure there's going to be something

1053
01:24:33,625 --> 01:24:36,425
that emerges that no one could have predicted,

1054
01:24:36,505 --> 01:24:39,505
that's going to change the conversation.

1055
01:24:39,585 --> 01:24:41,465
And my entire purpose...

1056
01:24:41,545 --> 01:24:57,800
This is why I haven been on here telling you we need to do BIP 110 right now right now it the best thing ever because I want to have the humility and openness to the idea that there are better solutions that might enter the fray and I don want to be like blocked from noticing and picking up what they are

1057
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:06,360
and I just feel like historically that kind of thing is what comes along and you never know what

1058
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:13,740
it's going to be but the point is to be able to you know to not be too egotistically attached to

1059
01:25:13,740 --> 01:25:20,160
one idea that you can't listen to other good ideas so all that is to say I'm not going to like make a

1060
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:25,420
commitment with regards to what I'll do specifically I can just tell you how I'll feel when it all goes

1061
01:25:25,420 --> 01:25:31,500
down if it goes down in the worst way possible. But with regards to what happens to Ocean,

1062
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:38,100
what I would do within Ocean, and what other Bit.110 supporters would do, I think everyone

1063
01:25:38,100 --> 01:25:43,580
just needs to look and be very, very careful and pay attention to what everyone else is doing

1064
01:25:43,580 --> 01:25:51,020
and remain as agile as possible. So that, you know, there's some nasty stuff that can happen

1065
01:25:51,020 --> 01:25:54,1000
and I don't like talking about it because it makes it more likely. And I really hope it doesn't.

1066
01:25:55,420 --> 01:26:03,760
Um, people can read between the lines on that, but you know, if you're thinking of doing sabotage on either chain, please don't be that person.

1067
01:26:04,420 --> 01:26:08,940
Um, cause that's just mutually assured destruction if we're in a chain split scenario.

1068
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:12,460
And, um, I'm not going to say any more than that.

1069
01:26:12,780 --> 01:26:16,980
No, but like just to, cause I know, I obviously know what you're saying there.

1070
01:26:16,980 --> 01:26:25,400
Um, that's something that I really don't want to see happen because like, like we were talking about before with the taproot addresses where people are going to do it because they know that they're going to do it.

1071
01:26:25,420 --> 01:26:29,820
going to essentially become confiscated coins for a year or whatever like i think you could see a

1072
01:26:29,820 --> 01:26:34,240
false flag on the other side which is just not what anyone needs like i really hope people uh

1073
01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:40,480
people act a bit better than that but they probably won't i hope no i i think it's we're

1074
01:26:40,480 --> 01:26:45,900
saved kind of by how risky it is right like if you if you did try and do something like that you

1075
01:26:45,900 --> 01:26:50,980
better be very confident in your in your coin joining or whatever it is that that you needed

1076
01:26:50,980 --> 01:26:51,800
to make you anonymous.

1077
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,300
But I don't want to even reason about this anymore because...

1078
01:26:57,400 --> 01:26:58,140
Yes, I agree.

1079
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:00,980
Well, is there anything like on this Bit1 TensorFlow,

1080
01:27:01,100 --> 01:27:02,680
as I say, I've not been following it super closely.

1081
01:27:02,780 --> 01:27:04,220
Is there anything we've not spoken about in there?

1082
01:27:05,580 --> 01:27:08,200
Probably a fair few elements of it.

1083
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:12,540
There's just, there's endless perspectives on it.

1084
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:22,895
And I always realizing new and different things about it every day but I think we gone over pretty much everything I like to have talked about

1085
01:27:22,995 --> 01:27:24,595
And I appreciate you taking the time.

1086
01:27:24,695 --> 01:27:26,395
I know that you're not a fan of it.

1087
01:27:27,095 --> 01:27:30,515
But I also know that you're not dismissing

1088
01:27:30,615 --> 01:27:35,115
what me and others have to say on it, you know, frivolously either.

1089
01:27:35,215 --> 01:27:37,415
I know you're prepared to listen, and I appreciate that.

1090
01:27:37,915 --> 01:27:39,815
No, I'm glad you came on, because like I say,

1091
01:27:39,815 --> 01:27:44,535
say like even though i disagree with you i like you i i want i don't want you to rage quit bitcoin

1092
01:27:44,535 --> 01:27:50,175
um so it's going to be an interesting few months anyway and like i think the the block size walls

1093
01:27:50,175 --> 01:27:54,975
proved that even people who are not necessarily on the the side of the battle that won like still

1094
01:27:54,975 --> 01:28:00,795
came back to bitcoin so some of them some did roger never did well he kept all his bitcoin

1095
01:28:00,795 --> 01:28:05,975
but i don't know are you going to be the roger or are you going to be the mike belchy no because

1096
01:28:05,975 --> 01:28:12,615
Roger really was like, his heart was in the right place, but he was wrong, right? And he just can't

1097
01:28:12,615 --> 01:28:18,675
admit that he was wrong. Like, if I'm wrong, then it's me making a mistake. If I'm wrong about

1098
01:28:18,675 --> 01:28:25,015
Bit.10, hey, I'm open about there being mistakes with it that need to be fixed. And if it expires

1099
01:28:25,015 --> 01:28:31,215
within a year, relief. I'm not telling you it's like, I've done it enough now that I've advocated

1100
01:28:31,215 --> 01:28:36,435
for a soft fork and it had a mistake in it and then I look stupid. I did that with Segwit and I

1101
01:28:36,435 --> 01:28:40,815
did that with Taproot. I'm not going to do that with Bit.10 where I'm like this is the perfect

1102
01:28:40,815 --> 01:28:45,335
thing. Everyone needs to adopt it and then you just have to eat humble pie years later.

1103
01:28:46,415 --> 01:28:52,055
If you stay humble then you can fix it when it goes wrong and no one has to humiliate you over

1104
01:28:52,055 --> 01:28:59,195
it. So no, I'm not going to be like Roger about it because he can't admit the mistakes he made is

1105
01:28:59,195 --> 01:29:04,615
the problem, right? Like, everyone would welcome him back in five minutes if he was to eat humble

1106
01:29:04,615 --> 01:29:12,135
pie over it, but he won't. And he's busy inventing conspiracy theories about, you know, well, stuff

1107
01:29:12,135 --> 01:29:16,175
that actually comes out of a lot of the Bit.10 supporters mail these days around Blockstream and,

1108
01:29:16,235 --> 01:29:21,115
you know, Epstein contamination and all that stuff. Some of that did end up being a bit more

1109
01:29:21,115 --> 01:29:26,875
accurate than we'd have liked, but, you know, anyway, I appreciate the kind sentiment. I wouldn't,

1110
01:29:26,875 --> 01:29:28,635
Rage quitting's not my style.

1111
01:29:28,715 --> 01:29:31,175
I think it's genuinely just a passion thing for me.

1112
01:29:31,255 --> 01:29:32,555
I've always loved Bitcoin,

1113
01:29:32,655 --> 01:29:34,715
and I've always loved advocating for it.

1114
01:29:34,775 --> 01:29:37,215
And I don't want to be advocating for something

1115
01:29:37,295 --> 01:29:38,715
if I feel like it's not,

1116
01:29:38,795 --> 01:29:43,355
if it lost its sort of moral conviction or, you know, purpose.

1117
01:29:43,455 --> 01:29:55,790
And it just became like a thing that a bunch of Wall Street guys were really enjoying getting super rich off I like this is nonsense now Like there no way to passionately advocate for that Yeah No I mean I agree with you on a lot of this stuff

1118
01:29:55,870 --> 01:29:57,890
Like, I think we need to see Bitcoin be used as money more.

1119
01:29:58,030 --> 01:29:59,530
I don't agree with you on the Bit110 stuff.

1120
01:30:00,010 --> 01:30:01,910
I can't say I hope you win.

1121
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:04,590
But thank you for coming on and talking about it anyway.

1122
01:30:04,890 --> 01:30:05,570
It's been cool.

1123
01:30:06,230 --> 01:30:08,570
And hopefully, well, we're going to see what happens.

1124
01:30:09,030 --> 01:30:10,830
I'm sure there'll be another podcast in it at some point.

1125
01:30:10,830 --> 01:30:37,730
Yeah, I think like in late July is when everything comes to a head, because you can totally ignore this fork. No one's going to throw your block in the trash until late July comes. And then you need to be like, what if like every mind is going to ask themselves that question? What if another giant pool goes along with this? We don't have any infrastructure set up with it. Right. Oh, let me I didn't quite finish making this point before. I know this is a natural place to end it. But I do want to make this one point.

1126
01:30:37,730 --> 01:30:44,710
if you're foundry or if you're ant pool and you're concerned about the other pool going with the fork

1127
01:30:44,710 --> 01:30:51,110
then you can't console yourself with the idea that if they do i can just flip a switch and i'm way

1128
01:30:51,110 --> 01:30:56,110
over you need to do a bunch of testing and build it out and make sure it works and that takes enough

1129
01:30:56,110 --> 01:31:02,890
time and energy that once you do it it's kind of a foregone conclusion that it goes that way

1130
01:31:02,890 --> 01:31:09,370
Does that make sense? Like some things are like, if there's, there's an analogy for this, but if you,

1131
01:31:09,530 --> 01:31:15,990
if you prepare for a scenario, you make that scenario more likely and you can't afford to

1132
01:31:15,990 --> 01:31:23,150
not prepare for it. I hope that sort of condenses it down. Like certain things that you can't,

1133
01:31:23,410 --> 01:31:28,370
like it can happen just due to people preparing for it, even though it wouldn't have happened if

1134
01:31:28,370 --> 01:31:31,970
they'd never bothered preparing. If everyone just ignores it, it's not going to happen.

1135
01:31:31,970 --> 01:31:35,810
but I don't think they can afford to do that.

1136
01:31:37,090 --> 01:31:39,030
I totally understand what you're saying.

1137
01:31:39,330 --> 01:31:42,250
And you know how these mining pools work far better than I do.

1138
01:31:43,010 --> 01:31:46,790
My gut is that they're not even going to prepare for it

1139
01:31:46,790 --> 01:31:47,590
and they're going to ignore it.

1140
01:31:47,650 --> 01:31:50,030
But I guess this is one of the things that only time will tell.

1141
01:31:50,270 --> 01:31:51,330
One of us will be right.

1142
01:31:51,750 --> 01:31:52,570
We will see.

1143
01:31:52,910 --> 01:31:54,750
And I'll be watching just like you.

1144
01:31:55,670 --> 01:31:56,070
Awesome.

1145
01:31:56,170 --> 01:31:56,790
Well, thank you, man.

1146
01:31:56,810 --> 01:31:57,690
I appreciate you coming on.

1147
01:31:57,850 --> 01:31:59,830
And yeah, I'm sure we'll speak again soon.

1148
01:32:00,350 --> 01:32:00,650
Thanks.

1149
01:32:00,650 --> 01:32:01,490
Thanks for having me.

1150
01:32:01,490 --> 01:32:02,270
Thanks, mate.