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Our home was at five in the morning raided by the FBI.

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And there's laser sights on our chests and we're handcuffed and separated.

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These are the prosecutors who brought charges asked,

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do you think, FinCEN, that Samurai Wallet is a money service business?

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And they had said emphatically, no, they're not because they don't take custody.

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They will lie, cheat, you know, do whatever it takes.

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So they don't want the truth.

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They're out to win.

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They're not out for truth.

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They're not out for justice. They're out to win.

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This case doesn't just affect us.

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It has broader implications for not only Bitcoin, but kind of developers as a whole.

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You know, this did stifle innovation.

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This goes against Trump's executive orders.

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This goes against the deputy AG's memo that they put out, violates on some constitutional grounds.

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The war on crypto is not over.

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And at any point, this could resurface.

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Lauren. Hi, Danny. Good to see you. Thank you for coming to Denver for this.

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Thank you for having me on. There's some shows that you just know are really important shows to

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make, and this is definitely one of them. But you've obviously not been on the show before.

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Do you want to start off by just introducing yourself? Sure. My name is Lauren Rodriguez,

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and I'm the wife of Keone Rodriguez, who is currently serving a five-year federal prison

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sentence for developing a Bitcoin wallet called Samurai Wallet.

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So I have covered this case a little bit before Bill and Keone actually went to jail.

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I had Bill's lawyer on the show with Zach Shapiro from BPI. But for anyone who maybe

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hasn't listened to that show, doesn't know what Samurai Wallet was, do you want to start by

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explaining?

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Sure. So Samurai Wallet, as you said, was founded by Keone, my husband, and his partner and

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co-defendant, Bill William Hill, in 2015. And they started Samurai because at that time,

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there was definitely a maybe ethos transition within the Bitcoin space.

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It was towards the end, you know, dark wallet had kind of paused development.

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there was a real focus towards making Bitcoin that your grandma can use. And that just did not

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interest them. They were interested in the censorship resistant promises of Bitcoin.

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They're cypherpunks.

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Yeah. And so they started Samurai for themselves primarily. Said, you know,

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we're going to build a wallet for ourselves and everyone else is along for the ride.

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And what that meant is they definitely had a strong focus on privacy features within the wallet. It was a full Betch32 wallet, but they had added features such as integrated Tor, Paynems, let's see, Cahoots.

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there was a lot of them, Stonewall, Stonewall 2X, a lot of interesting features like type change

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outputs and various things. And then there were two features that is what the government took issue

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with, which were ricochet, which added extra hops to transactions all within a user's wallet,

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but to separate where the funds came from to where they were going. And then Whirlpool,

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which was their CoinJoin implementation. So they operated Samurai for almost 10 years,

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no problems on Google Play Store, had a lot of users, a lot of core support, and

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never had any interaction, never any requests for information from law enforcement in any sense.

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They even helped fund a letter in response to a proposed legislation from FinCEN, along with 25 other companies that signed this.

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So they were out there operating the business.

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And then on April 24th of 2024, our home was at five in the morning raided by the FBI and the IRS.

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And at the same time, Bill in Portugal, there was a coordinated raid on him and his wife's house.

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Again, first interaction with law enforcement.

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We never received a notice of investigation or a letter saying, don't destroy anything.

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This was our first encounter.

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with was a light rising up to our window at five in the morning and our dog barking and, you know,

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us waking up and realizing there's people surrounding our house and, you know, here,

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come out with your hands raised and the action of, you know, trying to throw on slippers and a robe

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and because it was cold and going downstairs and Keone's just in shorts and I'm trying to leash

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our dog because, you know, as the meme goes, ATF agents or government agents like to shoot dogs.

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So that was a big concern of mine. And we go outside and there's laser sights on our chest

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and we're handcuffed and separated. And I watch, you know, 40 armed tactical gear, night vision,

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you know, nods. Well, first they flew a drone into the house and then continue to clear our

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house, about 40 agents. And this is a small two-bedroom cottage. And I'm standing in the street,

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you know, handcuffed, watching it happen and not understanding what was going on.

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So what happened next that morning? So you were both handcuffed. You were outside.

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Presumably, Keone was taken away. Were you?

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So he was kept, he was placed in a car and I was stood outside. And eventually,

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they brought me back into my house and sat me on my kitchen table.

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Did they tell you what was happening?

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No. And that's, I had asked, I'd asked the, I guess maybe, you know, watch too many television shows, but had asked the officer who was a local officer, you know, holding me like, well, what's this about?

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What, you know, do I get to see a warrant? And he informed me that, no, it's not like the shows where they hold up a warrant.

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I assumed you needed a warrant to do that.

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Well, they had a warrant, but they just don't have to present it to you.

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Okay.

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So they led me back in and they told me they had a warrant and that they politely told me that I need to clear out.

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That I could say if I wanted to, but they wanted me out of the house.

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And so I left.

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Because they were going to search the house pretty quickly.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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They had called in other agents to search.

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And so thankfully my parents live close by.

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So I took the dog and they took Keone away at this point.

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And so I frantically was trying to call Samurai's attorney because it's the only attorney's number that I knew.

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Hadn't realized that he had moved from the East Coast time zone to the West Coast.

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So it was about 2 or 3 in the morning for him and woke him up.

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And it was stressful, but just trying to figure out what do you do in this situation was my first interaction with it.

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And thankfully, he was able to then call some criminal defense attorneys and kind of get the lay of the land and what happens.

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And then later that day, Keone was arraigned in Pittsburgh, where we live.

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And at that point, he had met with a public defender within Pittsburgh who showed him the indictment and let him know that these were charges in relation to Samurai Wallet being brought out of the Southern District of New York, where I hadn't really spent any time.

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Business never operated. We never lived, but it's coming out of that district and that the charges were conspiracy to operate a unlicensed money service business and conspiracy to money launder, which was shocking.

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But at the same time, we're like, well, that's not the case.

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We never conspired to money launder and everyone in the industry knows we're non-custodial, so therefore we're not money transmitters.

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They just don't understand how this works.

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We'll explain it.

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And it'll all be okay.

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And I'll be okay.

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So I think that's a really important distinction though,

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is that Samurai was always non-custodial.

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And is it right that Samurai had even gone to FinCEN

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to ask if they needed to register and were told no?

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So no, we never went because the way FinCEN operates

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is you can go and ask, but there had been a lot of,

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FinCEN had put out guidance.

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the FinCEN stands for the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and their branch regulator

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underneath the Treasury Department. And they're in charge of financial crime and enforcing that.

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And so money licenses falls under their jurisdiction. And it had been the case that a lot of

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companies within the space were applying and then they just were not getting any response from them.

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They had put out guidance in 2013 and 2019, which was really good guidance, especially when other branches of the United States government were not as clear like the SEC, whereas a little more vague.

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Vincen said, you know, if you don't take custody, you are not a money transmitter. And they even had

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a stipulation in there for anonymizing service providers, which Whirlpool would have fallen under,

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that they are also not a money service business. So therefore you don't need a license.

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And as it was common knowledge that they weren't responding to these things, it was,

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we didn't request at that time. However, I think what you're referring to is,

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kind of comes up later in the course of the case, where we found out that the prosecution

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six months prior to indictment had gone to FinCEN, and they asked, these are the prosecutors who

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brought charges, asked, do you think, FinCEN, that samurai wallet is a money service business?

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And they had said emphatically, no, they're not, because they don't take custody.

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Okay, so this was an entirely legal business operating.

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But when this raid happened, did you still like in your gut know that this was about Samurai?

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And even if you thought maybe you could explain it, that that was the reason?

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Because we also know, even if it was legal,

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that the US government maybe doesn't like privacy-preserving software.

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I think just, I mean, just the time of day and news sources

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that I think part of me was maybe in the response of it too,

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the fact that it was so heavily armed, you know, an MRAP,

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which is like an armored vehicle and the drone.

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Like, I think my idea was, they have the wrong house.

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Like, I think that was my initial thought.

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And then once they arrested Keone, I think it's like, okay,

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I mean, we literally don't do anything else.

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You know, his work was, that's all, pretty much all he did,

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was work on samurai and talk to people about samurai.

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So then that's the point where it's like, okay,

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it has to be related to samurai, but didn't know what.

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Okay.

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And then it wasn't until he had met with the public defender

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and she had a copy of the indictment and a copy of, you know,

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the charges brought against him that that's when we knew what they were

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or why they were coming after us.

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But we really thought, oh, this will go away quickly.

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And so what did happen next?

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So Keone was taken away.

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When did you next hear from him?

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So that same evening, we were able to get an arraignment.

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And because we live in Pennsylvania,

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Western District of Pennsylvania,

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he was first arraigned in Pennsylvania.

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This isn't their case.

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They don't really care.

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They let him out on a, I believe it was $100,000,

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not backed, so just by signature.

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He just had to sign it saying he would show up to his first court appearance in New York

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because that's who had brought the charges.

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And he was able to come home that night.

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Bill, on the other hand, in Portugal, because it was the Southern District of New York

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and he lived in Portugal, he was arrested and held in a Portuguese prison for, I believe,

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three to five months.

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I can't remember the exact amount of time, but a really long time awaiting extradition.

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And he wasn't fighting extradition.

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This is just the slowness of bureaucracies.

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And I believe it wasn't a very nice place to be kept for that long.

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No, no.

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It was, yeah, medieval prison and everything that entails.

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Damn.

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You can imagine.

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And so when Keone got home, how was he?

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This is a while ago now I think I went to the court and picked him up and brought him a change of clothes because he had you know went downstairs barefoot in shorts

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And I was able to get him, like, a t-shirt and some,

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I don't know, flip flops or something.

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But I wasn't sure if he'd need to change for a court.

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So I kind of brought him some clothes and drove him back home.

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And I think we were both in shock still a bit.

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We called an attorney, kind of talked to them a bit,

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just really, you know, what's going on?

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Why is this happening?

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And I think at that time,

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from what I remember, I think we really were,

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did not think it would be over two years later

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and he'd be in prison.

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Like, you know, I think we were hopeful and...

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So when did the sort of reality

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of what the situation is now first kind of set in?

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So, court processes are very slow and take a very long time.

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00:16:38,008 --> 00:16:45,068
So, we had to go to New York numerous times for short little procedural, you know, making

219
00:16:45,068 --> 00:16:50,148
sure that they're handing over discovery and short little hearings.

220
00:16:50,308 --> 00:16:51,348
We did that quite a bit.

221
00:16:52,108 --> 00:16:58,428
One of these hearings, the bill's attorney brought up the fact that the discovery in

222
00:16:58,428 --> 00:17:06,548
this case was 17 terabytes, which is 75% of the Library of Congress and had the really,

223
00:17:06,548 --> 00:17:10,908
you know, cool picture to just demonstrate how much that if it would have been printed out,

224
00:17:10,988 --> 00:17:16,088
it would reach the moon and back 22 times. So it's a ton of discovery to go through. And with

225
00:17:16,088 --> 00:17:22,048
discovery, they don't point to things that they're going to bring up. Yeah. So you really have to go

226
00:17:22,048 --> 00:17:26,528
through it all. It's a very expensive. Is the idea there that it makes it so expensive that you can't

227
00:17:26,528 --> 00:17:29,528
I mean, I'm sure that's part of it, right?

228
00:17:29,608 --> 00:17:32,528
They don't want to make it easy. They're out to win.

229
00:17:32,608 --> 00:17:34,528
They're not out for truth. They're not out for justice.

230
00:17:34,608 --> 00:17:38,868
They're out to win. It's a very adversarial nature

231
00:17:38,948 --> 00:17:43,248
of the justice system. And so that was a lot.

232
00:17:43,308 --> 00:17:47,248
And then, but we were seeing what was there,

233
00:17:47,308 --> 00:17:49,248
and there wasn't anything there.

234
00:17:49,308 --> 00:17:53,288
You know, every, all the evidence that they presented

235
00:17:53,288 --> 00:17:59,348
presented was things they had said.

236
00:17:59,348 --> 00:18:02,068
So whether it be on Twitter or private messaging

237
00:18:02,068 --> 00:18:04,268
or different forums like that, I

238
00:18:04,268 --> 00:18:07,868
think they pulled a single slide out of a deck

239
00:18:07,868 --> 00:18:09,308
and misconstrued it.

240
00:18:09,308 --> 00:18:13,108
And everything was taken out of context,

241
00:18:13,108 --> 00:18:17,168
purposely misconstrued, maybe non-purposely on some of it.

242
00:18:17,168 --> 00:18:22,228
But it was, in our view, there wasn't anything there.

243
00:18:22,228 --> 00:18:28,068
There are some memes that they, I don't know, thought were serious.

244
00:18:29,068 --> 00:18:36,348
And then there was the blockchain data, which, again, Whirlpool and Ricochet were the two.

245
00:18:37,968 --> 00:18:38,908
They were the issues.

246
00:18:39,068 --> 00:18:40,348
Yeah, that they had problems with.

247
00:18:40,788 --> 00:18:42,188
Ricochet, they didn't really focus on.

248
00:18:42,268 --> 00:18:43,648
They just said, it's bad.

249
00:18:43,688 --> 00:18:44,308
We don't like it.

250
00:18:44,308 --> 00:18:52,048
But Whirlpool, at its height, had $80,000 Bitcoin capacity.

251
00:18:52,228 --> 00:18:52,508
Mm-hmm.

252
00:18:53,648 --> 00:18:58,228
They were citing transactions that they claim,

253
00:18:58,288 --> 00:19:02,368
and we never got to the point where we had our own investigation

254
00:19:02,368 --> 00:19:04,648
to look into whether these numbers were accurate.

255
00:19:04,888 --> 00:19:06,128
So we'll just say that they are.

256
00:19:07,328 --> 00:19:12,808
Quite small numbers by comparison to nothing that would raise a red flag

257
00:19:12,808 --> 00:19:17,288
as an observer, just watching a casual observer watching Whirlpool,

258
00:19:17,288 --> 00:19:20,008
because, again, as we all know, Bitcoin's a public ledger,

259
00:19:20,268 --> 00:19:22,148
and you can watch everything that goes on.

260
00:19:22,228 --> 00:19:32,828
So they said it was, I think they said under 10% of Oracle pool capacity was connected to criminal proceeds.

261
00:19:32,828 --> 00:19:37,808
But this is the nature of working on an open source tool in Bitcoin that you don't control.

262
00:19:38,048 --> 00:19:40,588
You also don't control who uses it and what they use it for.

263
00:19:40,708 --> 00:19:41,368
Yeah, that's correct.

264
00:19:41,468 --> 00:19:47,768
And those numbers are in comparison with regulated entities such as banks that have the same criminality.

265
00:19:47,768 --> 00:19:57,668
And those are under obligation to KYC and AML, their customers, where we and the regulator didn't think that we had those obligations.

266
00:19:58,188 --> 00:20:00,228
So you had these small court dates in New York.

267
00:20:01,108 --> 00:20:06,608
Was there a point before this went to full trial that you were like, OK, we could be in trouble here?

268
00:20:07,628 --> 00:20:09,488
No, at this point, we're still really positive.

269
00:20:10,808 --> 00:20:12,248
Legal team was pretty confident.

270
00:20:12,488 --> 00:20:16,768
I mean, you're always, when you're going up against the federal government, they're, you know, Goliath.

271
00:20:16,768 --> 00:20:17,268
Goliath.

272
00:20:17,648 --> 00:20:19,308
Yeah, good batting average.

273
00:20:19,428 --> 00:20:20,428
They have endless resources.

274
00:20:21,348 --> 00:20:22,408
You don't.

275
00:20:22,648 --> 00:20:23,508
We didn't.

276
00:20:23,988 --> 00:20:25,968
So there's always that to contend with.

277
00:20:25,968 --> 00:20:29,488
But, you know, we felt truth was on our side.

278
00:20:30,048 --> 00:20:31,548
It came up through discovery.

279
00:20:31,748 --> 00:20:39,188
Our attorney thought, thankfully, to ask the prosecutors, hey, did you ever have a conversation with Vincent?

280
00:20:39,628 --> 00:20:40,568
And they said, yeah.

281
00:20:40,668 --> 00:20:42,588
And that's when that came out.

282
00:20:42,608 --> 00:20:43,668
And that was a Brady violation.

283
00:20:43,668 --> 00:20:45,988
So because they should have handed that over and they didn't.

284
00:20:45,988 --> 00:20:47,608
So we thought, well, that's good.

285
00:20:47,708 --> 00:20:49,188
The judge isn't going to like this, right?

286
00:20:49,248 --> 00:20:50,348
It goes against judge's rules.

287
00:20:50,428 --> 00:20:55,008
So you need to hand over this information by a certain date.

288
00:20:55,808 --> 00:20:59,508
And so taking long, you know, everything's feeling good.

289
00:20:59,508 --> 00:21:06,348
And then where we got to, and this is over a year in,

290
00:21:07,228 --> 00:21:12,608
and we've, you know, assembled a motion to dismiss.

291
00:21:13,088 --> 00:21:15,068
We've assembled some other motions.

292
00:21:15,068 --> 00:21:21,688
and Judge Berman, who was our judge at the time, wanted everything. He was going to pile everything

293
00:21:21,688 --> 00:21:25,788
together. We're going to have one big hearing. This would be our first big hearing. And we would

294
00:21:25,788 --> 00:21:36,428
go over the Brady violation, have oral arguments on our motion to dismiss. He was going to rule on

295
00:21:36,428 --> 00:21:42,068
some other minor issues and decide whether he was going to take amicus briefs, some things like that.

296
00:21:42,068 --> 00:22:04,608
A few days before this hearing, gearing up to go, we're suddenly told that Judge Berman has recused himself. Don't know why. And we have a new judge, Judge Coate. She's going to keep the same date. So go to court and expecting to present and have oral arguments in front of her.

297
00:22:04,908 --> 00:22:07,848
So was that a red flag when you heard that he'd recused himself?

298
00:22:07,848 --> 00:22:24,788
Oh, well, a little bit. We're a little kind of surprised. You know, he is, both these judges are in their 80s, but he was still seeing other cases. He wasn't like, he didn't recuse himself from everything. It was just our case, which was a bit odd.

299
00:22:24,788 --> 00:22:29,528
But first time dealing with the justices, I just go with the flow on that.

300
00:22:29,648 --> 00:22:32,148
But our attorney's thought was a little bit weird.

301
00:22:33,268 --> 00:22:43,908
And also the distinction between the two judges is, so Judge Berman is one of the few judges within the Southern District of New York who does not come from a prosecutor's background.

302
00:22:45,828 --> 00:22:54,148
Judge Coate, our new judge, on the other hand, was the former chief of the criminal division of the Southern District of New York prosecutor's office.

303
00:22:54,148 --> 00:22:58,148
So the people who wrote the charges against us, she used to be their boss.

304
00:22:59,148 --> 00:23:00,648
She's a prosecutor's prosecutor.

305
00:23:00,648 --> 00:23:01,948
So that was a little bit weary.

306
00:23:01,948 --> 00:23:04,748
We're like, okay, but judges are supposed to be non-biased.

307
00:23:04,748 --> 00:23:06,148
They're supposed to be fair.

308
00:23:06,148 --> 00:23:09,948
But did it feel like you were getting a tougher hand when the judge changed?

309
00:23:09,948 --> 00:23:12,748
A little bit, a little bit, but not so much.

310
00:23:12,748 --> 00:23:13,748
We're still ready to go.

311
00:23:13,748 --> 00:23:15,548
You know, we had strong arguments.

312
00:23:16,348 --> 00:23:18,348
Again, we had two conspiracy charges.

313
00:23:19,348 --> 00:23:21,748
Both the charges were conspiracy.

314
00:23:21,748 --> 00:23:30,428
and in a conspiracy charge, the government is supposed to prove that you entered into an

315
00:23:30,428 --> 00:23:35,968
agreement to break federal law. Well, we knew that wasn't the case. That was never the intent.

316
00:23:37,348 --> 00:23:41,308
That never happened. So there wouldn't be any, there wasn't any evidence to that.

317
00:23:42,028 --> 00:23:49,028
And then we also had the Brady violation, which said FinCEN, who is, you know, directed by Congress

318
00:23:49,028 --> 00:23:53,308
to be the regulator who's in charge of money service business.

319
00:23:53,308 --> 00:23:55,188
They're saying that you're not a money service business.

320
00:23:55,768 --> 00:23:58,088
So I felt pretty confident.

321
00:23:58,728 --> 00:24:02,868
And our motion to dismiss had some really good case law,

322
00:24:03,288 --> 00:24:08,628
one from the 1940s with prohibition,

323
00:24:08,688 --> 00:24:12,348
and it was a sugar manufacturer who was selling to bootleggers.

324
00:24:12,748 --> 00:24:17,048
And that was ruled through the appeals process that no,

325
00:24:17,048 --> 00:24:21,928
even though he knowingly was selling to bootleggers, he was not part of the conspiracy

326
00:24:21,928 --> 00:24:28,208
to create and distribute alcohol. And then there was another case in the 90s where a grow light

327
00:24:28,208 --> 00:24:36,628
operator was advertising in High Times Magazine. And that case as well went to the appellate court

328
00:24:36,628 --> 00:24:43,908
and they said, no, even if you're advertising, knowing that it could be used for criminality,

329
00:24:43,908 --> 00:24:46,248
is not enough to be considered a conspiracy.

330
00:24:46,608 --> 00:24:47,888
So we're feeling pretty confident.

331
00:24:48,108 --> 00:24:48,568
Seems to fit.

332
00:24:48,808 --> 00:24:49,008
Yeah.

333
00:24:50,368 --> 00:24:52,948
And from the outside of someone who was watching this case,

334
00:24:53,028 --> 00:24:54,808
the Brady violation seemed like a really big deal.

335
00:24:54,928 --> 00:24:55,288
It was.

336
00:24:55,448 --> 00:24:57,708
I thought that was going to be sort of the smoking gun

337
00:24:57,708 --> 00:24:59,848
that meant that Kearney and Bill got off.

338
00:24:59,908 --> 00:25:00,068
Yeah.

339
00:25:00,428 --> 00:25:03,168
But obviously that didn't come to play.

340
00:25:03,628 --> 00:25:06,728
But so when you went to court,

341
00:25:07,408 --> 00:25:09,828
was the plan to plead not guilty?

342
00:25:10,508 --> 00:25:13,268
Yeah, we had pled not guilty up to this point.

343
00:25:13,268 --> 00:25:18,068
And we're going, and this is our first appearance a few days after the judge has changed.

344
00:25:18,068 --> 00:25:19,508
So she's just gotten the case.

345
00:25:19,888 --> 00:25:24,068
She's just been given all of the motions that have been submitted to her in writing.

346
00:25:24,488 --> 00:25:28,468
We're going in thinking we're going to be in court for a few hours.

347
00:25:28,708 --> 00:25:31,668
There's going to be, you know, these motions can be argued back and forth.

348
00:25:32,328 --> 00:25:35,788
And, you know, we'll see where they fall, but we're feeling good.

349
00:25:36,388 --> 00:25:40,848
We go before this judge, and it was maybe a five to 10-minute hearing.

350
00:25:40,848 --> 00:25:45,428
She gets on the bench, says, good morning, says, I'm denying everything.

351
00:25:46,428 --> 00:25:47,108
Goodbye.

352
00:25:48,488 --> 00:25:57,928
And when you have that, when you're not allowed to, she wasn't interested in hearing anything

353
00:25:57,928 --> 00:26:03,208
more, didn't explain why, which usually they will give either orally or in writing while

354
00:26:03,208 --> 00:26:04,308
they're denying things.

355
00:26:04,548 --> 00:26:05,728
It was shocking.

356
00:26:05,728 --> 00:26:31,688
And that's the point where we realized, okay, the math's changed. This is not the same. And we were advised at that point as well. And something I didn't realize before having this interaction, that the judge really does have such an impact in determining the outcome of a trial.

357
00:26:32,148 --> 00:26:34,508
Same set of circumstances, same facts,

358
00:26:35,008 --> 00:26:38,768
and who your judge is can determine whether you're found guilty or not.

359
00:26:39,168 --> 00:26:44,428
A judge gets to decide what kind of defense you're allowed to put on.

360
00:26:44,908 --> 00:26:48,088
They get to decide who you're allowed to present as witnesses,

361
00:26:49,148 --> 00:26:54,848
what kind of evidence you can present to the jury,

362
00:26:55,208 --> 00:26:58,388
and as well as down to what words you're allowed to use in front of the jury.

363
00:26:58,388 --> 00:27:01,388
So they really are kings and queens of their courtrooms.

364
00:27:01,388 --> 00:27:03,388
And what they say is kind of final.

365
00:27:03,388 --> 00:27:14,388
And so hearing that, and hearing that we wouldn't be able to put on the defense that we had been planning, again, this is over a year into this process.

366
00:27:14,388 --> 00:27:18,388
That's crazy. They can sort of sway the outcome before anything's even been said in court.

367
00:27:18,388 --> 00:27:19,388
Yeah.

368
00:27:19,388 --> 00:27:20,388
I did not realize that's how it worked.

369
00:27:20,388 --> 00:27:27,388
Yeah. They get to say whether, yeah, I mean, what, they could have two sheets of paper and they say, yeah, you can show this one.

370
00:27:27,388 --> 00:27:29,388
show this one, but you can't show this one.

371
00:27:29,388 --> 00:27:31,388
Wow. So, yeah.

372
00:27:31,388 --> 00:27:35,388
So at that point, this is more serious than maybe we thought.

373
00:27:35,388 --> 00:27:41,388
Yeah. And it was after that hearing where everything was denied. And it came down to,

374
00:27:41,388 --> 00:27:48,388
she denied amicus briefs, which for those who don't know are friends of the court letters.

375
00:27:48,388 --> 00:27:55,388
They're interested parties, but not for the defense or the prosecution, just giving more

376
00:27:55,388 --> 00:27:58,208
more educational insight into a case,

377
00:27:58,248 --> 00:27:59,968
because a judge can't be expected to know,

378
00:28:00,128 --> 00:28:02,268
be an expert in every case that comes before her,

379
00:28:02,348 --> 00:28:03,708
especially in such a technical one,

380
00:28:03,848 --> 00:28:06,288
such as one involving Bitcoin.

381
00:28:06,648 --> 00:28:08,408
What was the stuff that they weren't going to allow you to say?

382
00:28:08,928 --> 00:28:10,948
Well, we didn't get to that point,

383
00:28:11,068 --> 00:28:12,988
but we were advised by the attorneys.

384
00:28:13,788 --> 00:28:17,968
So a legal defense option is defensive counsel.

385
00:28:19,048 --> 00:28:20,668
We, as in the whole industry,

386
00:28:20,668 --> 00:28:26,028
had reviewed the guidance of FinCEN.

387
00:28:26,808 --> 00:28:28,828
And again, it wasn't just our attorney saying this.

388
00:28:28,828 --> 00:28:32,708
This was industry-wide, reviewed what FinCEN said and said,

389
00:28:32,788 --> 00:28:34,828
no, if you're non-custodial, you're not a money transmitter.

390
00:28:35,188 --> 00:28:36,748
And that was really the crux of it.

391
00:28:36,768 --> 00:28:39,928
Because if you're not a money transmitter, if you don't need to do KYC, IML,

392
00:28:40,568 --> 00:28:44,508
then how can you be a money launder?

393
00:28:44,948 --> 00:28:46,488
Because you don't know who's coming through,

394
00:28:46,508 --> 00:28:49,148
and you're not holding anyone's funds to move.

395
00:28:50,668 --> 00:28:52,828
Again, whole industry was under this interpretation.

396
00:28:54,188 --> 00:28:55,408
It wasn't even an interpretation.

397
00:28:55,668 --> 00:28:58,188
It was pretty black and white, what the guidance said.

398
00:28:58,908 --> 00:29:03,248
And so that was one of our defense options,

399
00:29:03,388 --> 00:29:05,848
to present a defensive counsel saying,

400
00:29:05,988 --> 00:29:09,268
this is what the law says, what we told a lawyer said,

401
00:29:09,348 --> 00:29:10,708
we thought we were following the laws,

402
00:29:11,288 --> 00:29:14,088
therefore we can't have conspired to break the law,

403
00:29:14,748 --> 00:29:15,868
which is pretty accurate.

404
00:29:16,108 --> 00:29:19,768
They designed it to stay within the bounds of the law

405
00:29:19,768 --> 00:29:24,648
as we understood it. They said, that's not going to fly with her. She's not going to let you put on

406
00:29:24,648 --> 00:29:30,788
that defense. And shortly after this hearing that the prosecution came to us. So they don't want the

407
00:29:30,788 --> 00:29:41,688
truth. No, no, no, it's, you know, prosecutors and maybe, maybe in some cases they do, but a case like

408
00:29:41,688 --> 00:29:49,728
this, um, the head of the Southern district of New York at the time under Biden had said he

409
00:29:49,728 --> 00:29:57,088
wanted to be the sheriff of Bitcoin or sheriff of crypto, actually, which was in reference to,

410
00:29:57,088 --> 00:30:04,048
I think in the 90s, the head of the SDNY was the sheriff of Wall Street. So he was looking to make

411
00:30:04,048 --> 00:30:08,968
a name. That's why there were, you know, these cases didn't happen, right? Samurai was in operation

412
00:30:08,968 --> 00:30:15,248
under President Obama, President Trump won, and then Biden. Biden's when it, you know, they came

413
00:30:15,248 --> 00:30:21,568
brought these charges. Same set of facts, different interpretation. And that's not how the law is

414
00:30:21,568 --> 00:30:28,128
supposed to work. But there was a lot of crypto cases all brought within the Southern District

415
00:30:28,128 --> 00:30:33,648
of New York at roughly the same time. With Roman Storm. Roman Storm is another, yeah.

416
00:30:34,848 --> 00:30:43,648
And these are AUSAs who are looking to make a name for themselves. And that's what was interesting

417
00:30:43,648 --> 00:30:49,228
with the whole, you know, when we were talking to different law firms, the first thing they

418
00:30:49,228 --> 00:30:57,908
all said when meeting with them, their pitch to us, for us to be their client, was formerly

419
00:30:57,908 --> 00:30:59,948
an AUSA at the SDNY.

420
00:31:00,268 --> 00:31:00,908
Formerly an AUSA.

421
00:31:01,248 --> 00:31:08,688
They all come from there and then go into private sector, or they turn their prosecution

422
00:31:08,688 --> 00:31:11,168
job into a political career.

423
00:31:11,408 --> 00:31:12,588
It's just a stepping stone.

424
00:31:12,588 --> 00:31:13,448
And what are they after?

425
00:31:13,448 --> 00:31:15,948
or thereafter wins under the belt.

426
00:31:15,948 --> 00:31:27,936
And that definitely came to this because if they were after truth then there wouldn have been a need to hide the Brady That Vincent said we weren you know

427
00:31:28,015 --> 00:31:31,275
there wouldn't be a need to twist things the way they did.

428
00:31:32,936 --> 00:31:35,035
They were after a win.

429
00:31:35,775 --> 00:31:37,775
And so that's when they came to us,

430
00:31:37,936 --> 00:31:41,636
and they said, we're going to make you an offer,

431
00:31:42,095 --> 00:31:43,396
offer of a plea deal.

432
00:31:43,816 --> 00:31:45,136
You have 24 hours to decide.

433
00:31:45,136 --> 00:31:48,055
You both have to agree or the deal's off.

434
00:31:48,855 --> 00:32:00,035
And what they offered was plead to unlicensed money transmission and will drop conspiracy to money launder.

435
00:32:00,616 --> 00:32:06,255
And the difference of those two charges is unlicensed money transmission has a max sentence of five years,

436
00:32:06,576 --> 00:32:10,855
while the conspiracy to money launder has a 20 year.

437
00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:14,936
So go to trial, you're looking at 25 years.

438
00:32:15,136 --> 00:32:19,995
And Bill is in his late 60s.

439
00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,316
That's potentially a life sentence.

440
00:32:23,156 --> 00:32:43,376
Not to mention, they're also threatening that the entirety of the money they said went through Bitcoin or went through Whirlpool or people that use Whirlpool that were criminal proceeds, which they claimed is 248 some million dollars, maybe more.

441
00:32:43,376 --> 00:32:47,676
that they would put a fine against them.

442
00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:48,876
So it's life bankruptcy.

443
00:32:49,275 --> 00:32:51,576
Yeah. Well, it's not even just life bankruptcy.

444
00:32:51,876 --> 00:32:53,736
It's if you have that over you,

445
00:32:53,835 --> 00:32:56,495
you're on kind of bail conditions for the rest of your life

446
00:32:56,495 --> 00:32:57,676
until you pay that off.

447
00:32:57,775 --> 00:32:59,035
So you're never a free person.

448
00:32:59,555 --> 00:33:02,396
And when you went home to discuss this,

449
00:33:03,156 --> 00:33:04,476
did any part of you want to fight it?

450
00:33:04,816 --> 00:33:07,995
Yeah. Yeah. Keone, I mean, it was a really tough call

451
00:33:07,995 --> 00:33:12,716
because he didn't conspire.

452
00:33:13,376 --> 00:33:15,335
to operate an unloaced money service business

453
00:33:15,335 --> 00:33:17,576
and he didn't conspire to money launder,

454
00:33:17,576 --> 00:33:18,576
which were the two charges.

455
00:33:18,576 --> 00:33:21,636
So it was a lot of,

456
00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:26,316
you know, it did, it weighed really heavily,

457
00:33:26,316 --> 00:33:29,216
but it came down to there's no way

458
00:33:29,216 --> 00:33:31,755
we're gonna get a fair trial

459
00:33:31,755 --> 00:33:35,295
with the judge operating as a fifth prosecutor from the bench.

460
00:33:35,295 --> 00:33:37,656
You know, you're fighting with both hands tied behind your back

461
00:33:37,656 --> 00:33:40,576
and, you know, what do you do?

462
00:33:40,576 --> 00:33:49,216
So if we would take it to trial, and prosecutions have a 90-plus percent conviction rate for a reason.

463
00:33:50,495 --> 00:33:58,595
If you take it to trial and lose, which the fact that we're not going to be able to present anything, yeah, is the likely outcome.

464
00:34:00,816 --> 00:34:08,936
If you would appeal it, a lot of times you're appealing it, not all the time, but depending on the judge, you might have to appeal from prison.

465
00:34:08,936 --> 00:34:16,216
And there's people in prison with Keone right now that are appealing their sentences, and they can take years.

466
00:34:17,675 --> 00:34:23,175
So, you know, the decision was made that we're going to take the deal.

467
00:34:23,615 --> 00:34:26,135
And were your lawyers saying that was the best outcome here?

468
00:34:26,175 --> 00:34:27,516
Yeah, they were.

469
00:34:27,856 --> 00:34:29,095
And that's the thing, too.

470
00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:31,655
It was hard and still hard.

471
00:34:31,655 --> 00:34:39,496
But when you have two law firms that are leaving a lot of money on the table, and they're both advising the same thing.

472
00:34:40,315 --> 00:34:51,756
I didn't realize this, but to fight a technical case within the Southern District of New York through trial, to go to trial, is about $13 million per defendant.

473
00:34:52,236 --> 00:34:53,496
We don't have that kind of money.

474
00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:54,376
We still don't.

475
00:34:54,376 --> 00:35:01,916
BPI was great, and they were able to raise about a million dollars that was divided between the two things.

476
00:35:02,055 --> 00:35:04,236
But we're a million dollars in debt at this point.

477
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:07,595
Yeah, there's no—so there wasn't any money to fight it.

478
00:35:09,135 --> 00:35:15,595
You know, with her as a judge, we weren't going to be able to present our defense as we wanted.

479
00:35:17,575 --> 00:35:20,815
And, you know, the downside is a big downside.

480
00:35:20,815 --> 00:35:25,055
So it was, you know, ultimately came to the decision.

481
00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:31,835
And when you do change your plea, you have to give something called an allocution statement.

482
00:35:32,256 --> 00:35:40,335
And it's pretty much just in your own words stating how you broke the law as it's been charged.

483
00:35:40,876 --> 00:35:44,496
And that took a lot of back and forth too because Keone would not lie.

484
00:35:44,655 --> 00:35:45,996
He's like, I'm not going to lie in this.

485
00:35:46,835 --> 00:35:50,315
If you already self-custody Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets.

486
00:35:50,315 --> 00:35:55,256
complex setups clumsy interfaces and a seed phrase that can be lost stolen or forgotten

487
00:35:55,256 --> 00:36:00,416
well bitkey fixes that bitkey is a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind square

488
00:36:00,416 --> 00:36:05,275
and cash app it packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an

489
00:36:05,275 --> 00:36:11,095
intuitive easy to use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over it's simple secure self-custody

490
00:36:11,095 --> 00:36:18,236
without the stress and time named bitkey one of the best inventions of 2024 get 20 off at bitkey.world

491
00:36:18,236 --> 00:36:19,956
when you use the code WBD.

492
00:36:20,536 --> 00:36:23,036
That's B-I-T-K-E-Y dot world

493
00:36:23,036 --> 00:36:24,795
and use the code WBD.

494
00:36:25,315 --> 00:36:26,675
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495
00:36:26,675 --> 00:36:27,835
without selling your Bitcoin?

496
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497
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498
00:36:32,075 --> 00:36:33,155
and since 2018,

499
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they've issued over $9 billion in loans

500
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501
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502
00:36:40,095 --> 00:36:42,275
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503
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504
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505
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506
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507
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508
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509
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510
00:37:04,175 --> 00:37:06,956
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511
00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:12,456
Head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan

512
00:37:12,456 --> 00:37:16,595
that's l-e-d-n dot i-o forward slash w-b-d

513
00:37:16,595 --> 00:37:19,615
if you haven't tried out club orange yet then now is the time

514
00:37:19,615 --> 00:37:22,536
it's my go-to place to find bitcoiners whenever i'm traveling

515
00:37:22,536 --> 00:37:27,476
club orange is a social app built for bitcoiners where you can find meetups and events in your area

516
00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:29,516
and find merchants that are accepting bitcoin

517
00:37:29,516 --> 00:37:33,696
there are over 19,000 bitcoiners on there and whether you're at home or traveling

518
00:37:33,696 --> 00:37:36,996
it's a great place to keep in touch with bitcoiners from all over the world

519
00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:40,976
i've been using club orange since it was orange pill app and it really is awesome

520
00:37:40,976 --> 00:37:43,216
So if you're on there, drop me a DM and say hi.

521
00:37:43,216 --> 00:37:45,416
And if you want to find out more and download the app,

522
00:37:45,416 --> 00:37:47,275
just search for Club Orange on your app store

523
00:37:47,275 --> 00:37:49,216
or go to cluborange.org.

524
00:37:49,216 --> 00:37:51,916
Is that one of those really tricky situations

525
00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:54,216
where you're trying to please the judge

526
00:37:54,216 --> 00:37:58,595
and kind of let them think that you're confessing to your sins

527
00:37:58,595 --> 00:38:00,555
and accepting responsibility when really,

528
00:38:00,555 --> 00:38:03,095
you want to just tell your truth of what actually happened?

529
00:38:03,095 --> 00:38:05,595
It's actually more so, so the allocution

530
00:38:05,595 --> 00:38:08,376
had to go back and forth between the defense attorneys

531
00:38:08,376 --> 00:38:10,095
and the prosecution attorneys.

532
00:38:10,095 --> 00:38:11,095
OK.

533
00:38:11,095 --> 00:38:13,536
First, before it was presented to her.

534
00:38:13,536 --> 00:38:16,196
So they actually got a say in what he said.

535
00:38:16,196 --> 00:38:21,736
And it finally came down to what his statement, and I'm paraphrasing, but basically was, you

536
00:38:21,736 --> 00:38:32,835
know, I founded, coded, and maintained Samurai Wallet, which allowed users to transact their

537
00:38:32,835 --> 00:38:40,476
Bitcoin and knowing that some of those users could be some of the proceeds from those users

538
00:38:40,476 --> 00:38:45,155
could have been from crime, which is completely true.

539
00:38:45,155 --> 00:38:51,335
I think anyone that's a developer or that builds anything, whether it be a gun, hammer.

540
00:38:51,335 --> 00:38:52,335
It could be used for that.

541
00:38:52,335 --> 00:38:53,335
It could be used for good.

542
00:38:53,335 --> 00:38:54,335
Yeah.

543
00:38:54,335 --> 00:38:56,335
That people could possibly use.

544
00:38:56,335 --> 00:38:57,335
Yeah.

545
00:38:57,335 --> 00:39:00,335
Didn't know of any specifics, but that was enough.

546
00:39:00,335 --> 00:39:02,356
That was enough and they accepted that.

547
00:39:02,356 --> 00:39:09,376
So how was that last night before you went to court, knowing that potentially you weren't going to see him again in the same capacity for five years?

548
00:39:10,675 --> 00:39:13,436
Well, part of what we.

549
00:39:15,115 --> 00:39:25,095
So once you once you change your plea and then you go away for a bit and there's like this whole pre sentencing report, a couple of months, everything, everything is really slow.

550
00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:30,615
And they do a pre sentencing report and some interviews and then you go back for sentencing.

551
00:39:30,615 --> 00:39:42,675
So it was after the change of plea, it was hard, but once it was done, it's kind of like you can't go back.

552
00:39:43,575 --> 00:39:46,595
So there was a lot of anxiety until that point.

553
00:39:46,815 --> 00:39:47,896
Are we doing the right thing?

554
00:39:47,956 --> 00:39:49,396
And then we can't go back.

555
00:39:49,696 --> 00:39:50,396
We've done it.

556
00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:51,115
It's done.

557
00:39:51,536 --> 00:39:53,835
So it was just moving forward and focusing on sentencing.

558
00:39:54,976 --> 00:39:56,456
And so we went to the sentencing.

559
00:39:56,456 --> 00:40:00,595
And that's really when we realized, yeah, this was the right call.

560
00:40:00,615 --> 00:40:05,516
because this judge threw the max of everything at him.

561
00:40:06,255 --> 00:40:08,876
And if she could have given him life, she would have.

562
00:40:09,016 --> 00:40:12,736
But there's legal maximums, and she meant all of those.

563
00:40:13,876 --> 00:40:18,496
And that was the point when Keone said, like, yeah, this was the right call.

564
00:40:18,956 --> 00:40:21,476
Like, we definitely made the right decision.

565
00:40:22,175 --> 00:40:25,196
At that point, part of what was agreed with the prosecution

566
00:40:25,196 --> 00:40:26,936
was that he would be able to self-surrender.

567
00:40:26,936 --> 00:40:32,976
because, again, there's a waiting time between sentencing and when the prison, federal prison,

568
00:40:32,976 --> 00:40:40,675
will be ready for you. A lot of paperwork has to go through. If you are not self-surrendering,

569
00:40:40,815 --> 00:40:48,635
then you may be remanded to a jail. And in New York, that's, I think it's a jail in Brooklyn,

570
00:40:49,216 --> 00:40:53,835
which was obviously not close to where we live. So that's part of what he agreed,

571
00:40:53,835 --> 00:40:54,976
that he wanted to self-surrender.

572
00:40:55,716 --> 00:40:58,476
The judge was ready to take him into custody right then.

573
00:40:58,556 --> 00:41:04,016
She had marshals in the back of the room of the court hearing.

574
00:41:04,155 --> 00:41:08,496
So that was her intent, but it would have looked bad

575
00:41:08,496 --> 00:41:09,936
if she would have gotten up and remanded him,

576
00:41:09,996 --> 00:41:13,416
even though the prosecution had agreed to let him self-surrender.

577
00:41:13,516 --> 00:41:16,056
And he had been out on bail, again, for over a year.

578
00:41:16,196 --> 00:41:16,356
Yeah.

579
00:41:16,736 --> 00:41:18,556
So there wasn't a flight risk.

580
00:41:19,356 --> 00:41:23,255
So she agreed, but that was definitely a close call.

581
00:41:23,255 --> 00:41:27,795
She would have, had it not been agreed and said openly in court,

582
00:41:27,896 --> 00:41:29,655
she would have definitely taken him there.

583
00:41:29,696 --> 00:41:32,936
And I didn't realize that was until I saw the marshals that...

584
00:41:32,936 --> 00:41:36,155
But how weird, like, your life must have felt so strange

585
00:41:36,155 --> 00:41:38,876
in that interim period between getting the sentence

586
00:41:38,876 --> 00:41:42,315
and before he self-surrendered, like, what did you even do?

587
00:41:42,615 --> 00:41:44,996
Cry. Cry a lot. I mean, really.

588
00:41:47,075 --> 00:41:49,216
Yeah, it was hard because it's...

589
00:41:49,216 --> 00:41:52,436
He was very focused on a couple of things.

590
00:41:52,436 --> 00:42:00,755
One, making sure that you're married, you have, there's just certain things that you take care of versus your wife takes care of.

591
00:42:00,996 --> 00:42:07,575
And so he kind of wrote me this huge guide of what happens if the internet goes out, like how to fix that.

592
00:42:07,615 --> 00:42:09,335
I don't know how to fix that, but now I do.

593
00:42:10,556 --> 00:42:12,315
Where to get toner for the printer.

594
00:42:12,315 --> 00:42:17,155
So, I mean, that was a very practical thing, which I appreciate.

595
00:42:17,155 --> 00:42:29,155
But then also he was finally like free to tell his side because of this whole up until this point, everything that was coming out was from the prosecution.

596
00:42:29,996 --> 00:42:36,036
So I think that in a sense was a relief that he was finally had his voice back for a brief time.

597
00:42:37,255 --> 00:42:40,255
And so, you know, that was nice.

598
00:42:40,255 --> 00:42:50,775
But then it also took him away a little bit because he was doing as many speaking engagements as he could just to get the word out of this is how it actually is.

599
00:42:51,976 --> 00:42:53,295
But yeah, it was hard.

600
00:42:53,536 --> 00:42:57,716
And she said he needed to self-surrender on December 19th.

601
00:42:57,716 --> 00:43:02,996
So just before Christmas, actually just before one of my brother's weddings was on the 20th.

602
00:43:02,996 --> 00:43:12,996
So, I mean, yeah, just kind of, there was no reason that it couldn't have been after Christmas. It was pretty spiteful, I think.

603
00:43:13,335 --> 00:43:18,135
Yeah, for sure. And how did he feel? Because I know if I was in his shoes, I'd be terrified.

604
00:43:18,516 --> 00:43:25,036
Like the idea of what you see on TV and in the movies about going to prison, terrifying ordeal, how was he?

605
00:43:25,036 --> 00:43:32,295
um he's pretty pragmatic so he read a lot of books of people or blogs of people who have been

606
00:43:32,295 --> 00:43:39,196
in we knew where he was going so where sorry where is he he's at morgantown federal corrections camp

607
00:43:39,196 --> 00:43:48,095
or federal prison camp i should say i should say um so he kind of so knowing that able to do some

608
00:43:48,095 --> 00:43:54,755
research, able to kind of get an understanding of how it functions, you know, the more information

609
00:43:54,755 --> 00:43:59,755
kind of better prepared. I don't think you can ever be fully prepared. Uh, but I think that

610
00:43:59,755 --> 00:44:06,416
helped and gave him something to do, something to focus on. Um, again, he's just the kind of

611
00:44:06,416 --> 00:44:12,075
person that's like, this is, yeah, I mean, really. And, you know, just trying to, trying to comfort

612
00:44:12,075 --> 00:44:17,736
me and, you know, I was trying not to be too big of a mess. And, um, and is that, how far is that

613
00:44:17,736 --> 00:44:21,775
from you. Can you easily go and visit him? Thankfully, yeah. It's about an hour and a half

614
00:44:21,775 --> 00:44:23,655
from me. Do you get any say in that, where he goes?

615
00:44:24,236 --> 00:44:31,315
So, the way it works, he requested that because it's the closest to our house. And it's all based

616
00:44:31,315 --> 00:44:37,416
on what level of prison you're at. It is based on a variety of factors, whether it's violent crime

617
00:44:37,416 --> 00:44:41,775
or not, whether it's your first offense or not, how many years the sentence is. So, like, all these

618
00:44:41,775 --> 00:44:45,815
play into it. And so, he was going to be at a federal prison camp, and they've been shutting

619
00:44:45,815 --> 00:44:55,315
a lot of prison camps down. So the fact that there was one that close was really lucky for us.

620
00:44:55,996 --> 00:45:02,056
They have to play, or they try to place you. They don't have to. They try to place you within 500

621
00:45:02,056 --> 00:45:08,835
miles of family. That's a pretty big distance. So yeah, an hour and a half drive isn't so bad.

622
00:45:08,916 --> 00:45:13,956
And there's a lot of guys that are in there with them that families have to fly in because they

623
00:45:13,956 --> 00:45:19,755
live so far away. So the fact that I can go down and I'm able to go and see him at least once a

624
00:45:19,755 --> 00:45:23,736
week is, you know, and if there's a federal holiday, I can go on federal holidays. So that's

625
00:45:23,736 --> 00:45:27,916
definitely been a blessing. And what kind of reputation does that jail have or that prison

626
00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:36,736
have? It's because it's a prison camp. So there's no fences or walls. It's actually used to be,

627
00:45:36,736 --> 00:45:42,416
it's a beautiful setting, like rolling hills. And there's a lot of like geese and ducks and deer.

628
00:45:42,416 --> 00:45:53,315
So it's kind of, you know, this juxtaposition between all these prisoners and that it's not violent, which is, you know, right.

629
00:45:53,376 --> 00:45:59,876
That's what I'm, I think, most thankful for is that like he's safe, but it's still prison.

630
00:45:59,876 --> 00:46:16,755
And it's still, especially for someone who, you know, as I think a lot of Bitcoiners are so invested in freedom to have that stripped away and, you know, told this is, and it's like silly little things that, you know, they'll call it the Bureau of Prisons.

631
00:46:16,755 --> 00:46:21,635
they, they nickname it, you know, they say it's backwards on, on purpose. Cause like just things

632
00:46:21,635 --> 00:46:30,456
that you think in any other section of society would be so easy to have operate in a certain way,

633
00:46:30,635 --> 00:46:37,216
logical way, and it'll be the complete opposite there. Um, so that's frustrating, but you know,

634
00:46:37,236 --> 00:46:43,516
he's got to kind of just one day at a time and do it and read a lot and kind of try to distract

635
00:46:43,516 --> 00:46:44,956
himself, but it's, it's boring.

636
00:46:45,216 --> 00:46:52,396
It's very boring, especially for someone who, you know, was so active and, and

637
00:46:52,396 --> 00:46:54,795
thinking and learning and yeah, developing.

638
00:46:54,956 --> 00:46:55,675
How has he been?

639
00:46:55,675 --> 00:46:57,275
Like, how was the first time you went to see him?

640
00:46:57,996 --> 00:47:09,443
Uh the first time was a big relief for me Cause I didn know you know I dropped him off but I did I couldn even get close to it so when I was first able to to go down and see him that which

641
00:47:09,443 --> 00:47:15,323
was I think it was Christmas day it was the first day I drove down to see him um was a huge relief

642
00:47:15,323 --> 00:47:22,983
you know he was okay um he had eaten like just like normal concerns that I just didn't know what

643
00:47:22,983 --> 00:47:28,463
to expect yeah so now we've definitely gone into a routine like that that took a while to

644
00:47:28,463 --> 00:47:33,223
right you have your partner who's we've been together for a long time and you're used to

645
00:47:33,223 --> 00:47:39,223
waking up next to them or you know fixing coffee and just normal daily life and then that person's

646
00:47:39,223 --> 00:47:45,043
gone you definitely notice it so as we've progressed and it's it's been over three months

647
00:47:45,043 --> 00:47:49,663
now like kind of right getting used to things yeah it's crazy though because like you obviously

648
00:47:49,663 --> 00:47:54,523
always will think of him in that situation but it completely throws your life upside down as well

649
00:47:54,523 --> 00:47:56,023
How have you managed it?

650
00:47:56,543 --> 00:48:00,163
Yeah, it's definitely being able to focus on, right,

651
00:48:00,263 --> 00:48:02,903
continuing to try to be his voice out here.

652
00:48:03,063 --> 00:48:03,283
Yeah.

653
00:48:03,603 --> 00:48:07,503
Because, yeah, he's been writing articles,

654
00:48:07,803 --> 00:48:09,363
but it's not the same.

655
00:48:09,523 --> 00:48:10,763
And, you know, I think it's important

656
00:48:10,763 --> 00:48:13,863
because this case doesn't just affect us.

657
00:48:13,863 --> 00:48:16,563
It has broader implications for, you know,

658
00:48:16,563 --> 00:48:21,203
not only Bitcoin, but kind of developers as a whole and further.

659
00:48:21,203 --> 00:48:29,763
so that's really been kind of something to keep me occupied and focused on and yeah you know i just

660
00:48:29,763 --> 00:48:35,023
get by we kind of gotten our like i said our routine down with you know i know to expect us

661
00:48:35,023 --> 00:48:40,543
call between six and six thirty in the morning and you know we talk for this amount of time and

662
00:48:40,543 --> 00:48:44,123
then we email throughout the day like just little things like that but but those are always weird

663
00:48:44,123 --> 00:48:49,163
too because you're like aware that there's a third person yeah you know listening in and oh

664
00:48:49,163 --> 00:48:51,423
Or are they literally live monitoring every call you do?

665
00:48:51,683 --> 00:48:52,523
I don't know how.

666
00:48:52,623 --> 00:48:53,363
I mean, they could be.

667
00:48:53,443 --> 00:48:54,183
You have to assume that.

668
00:48:54,283 --> 00:48:54,623
Yes.

669
00:48:54,623 --> 00:48:55,083
Yeah.

670
00:48:55,263 --> 00:48:58,683
And it's not like we have anything bad to say.

671
00:48:58,703 --> 00:48:59,243
It's still weird.

672
00:48:59,243 --> 00:48:59,523
Yeah.

673
00:48:59,643 --> 00:48:59,883
Yeah.

674
00:49:00,023 --> 00:49:02,883
It's weird to, you know, you want to have a private conversation.

675
00:49:03,163 --> 00:49:05,043
And it's just, that's just not how it is.

676
00:49:05,143 --> 00:49:06,563
And you have to accept that.

677
00:49:06,823 --> 00:49:07,503
And yeah.

678
00:49:07,723 --> 00:49:13,663
So because he pled guilty in the end, obviously sentenced to five years, which started just

679
00:49:13,663 --> 00:49:18,903
before Christmas, the pleading guilty means there's no appeal process, right?

680
00:49:18,903 --> 00:49:19,303
Yeah.

681
00:49:19,583 --> 00:49:26,663
Okay. So really your options are that he's either going to serve five years or you can try and get him a pardon.

682
00:49:26,943 --> 00:49:27,143
Yeah.

683
00:49:27,503 --> 00:49:29,183
So what's happening with that now?

684
00:49:29,683 --> 00:49:34,603
So the pardon route is, you know, and I think we have good cause.

685
00:49:36,483 --> 00:49:39,883
This goes against, you know, Trump's executive orders.

686
00:49:39,883 --> 00:49:43,223
This goes against the deputy AG's memo that they put out.

687
00:49:43,303 --> 00:49:46,383
This goes against the regulation that was there.

688
00:49:46,383 --> 00:50:01,523
It violates on some constitutional grounds of the fact that they brought the charges to begin with, because there's rules within the Constitution that if a law is ambiguous, that it should always be cited on the defendant's side.

689
00:50:01,923 --> 00:50:10,663
And if you can't change a law and then just go and arrest people or change the interpretation of a law and go and arrest people, which is exactly what happened here.

690
00:50:10,663 --> 00:50:21,223
So there's a lot of grounds for President Trump to be able to grant a pardon and be doing the right thing, the just thing.

691
00:50:21,223 --> 00:50:27,583
but you know it's uh the pardon process is president trump's very busy and it has to get

692
00:50:27,583 --> 00:50:32,523
in front of him and that's why keeping this you know keone and bill's name out there and keeping

693
00:50:32,523 --> 00:50:40,044
the story um on people's minds is is important because they're not going to want to you know to

694
00:50:40,044 --> 00:50:47,743
get the attention of the president it needs to have wider attention in people's minds and be

695
00:50:47,743 --> 00:50:52,063
something they care about. Totally. And it is obviously very in line with what you'd expect

696
00:50:52,063 --> 00:50:58,743
Trump to do, like with Russ Ulbrich and I think CZ got a pardon. But I could be totally wrong here,

697
00:50:58,783 --> 00:51:02,143
but the way you hear about pardons generally is it'll be like at the very start of a presidential

698
00:51:02,143 --> 00:51:06,083
campaign or the very end. Like, do they still happen all the way throughout their term?

699
00:51:06,203 --> 00:51:12,563
They do. There was last month, he did a round of pardons that, and sometimes they go in themes,

700
00:51:12,563 --> 00:51:14,423
which is, I don't know why, but they do.

701
00:51:14,563 --> 00:51:16,603
And it was former NFL players.

702
00:51:17,103 --> 00:51:18,243
Much of them got a pardon.

703
00:51:18,703 --> 00:51:20,943
So they do happen throughout.

704
00:51:21,463 --> 00:51:24,863
There are, like you said, kind of larger chunks of,

705
00:51:25,063 --> 00:51:27,023
there might be thousands of people pardoned, you know.

706
00:51:27,163 --> 00:51:30,423
And obviously with the January 6th political prisoners,

707
00:51:30,423 --> 00:51:33,023
that was a huge one at the beginning.

708
00:51:33,263 --> 00:51:35,963
But there have been some throughout.

709
00:51:36,223 --> 00:51:38,003
It's just not the numbers.

710
00:51:38,544 --> 00:51:40,203
But you're really at the whim of him,

711
00:51:40,203 --> 00:51:41,623
whenever he feels like it, I guess.

712
00:51:42,563 --> 00:51:52,603
Yeah, and I don't even know if it's so much the president as it is, you know, he has a lot of people advising him that someone has to carry it over to his desk at some point.

713
00:51:52,763 --> 00:51:57,083
And when they decide to do that, I don't know how that works.

714
00:51:57,083 --> 00:51:58,483
It's all about picking the opportune moment.

715
00:51:58,583 --> 00:51:58,803
Yes.

716
00:51:58,803 --> 00:52:02,463
But the crazy thing here is like there's huge implications for Bitcoin.

717
00:52:02,683 --> 00:52:05,803
Like we want this to happen because that then,

718
00:52:05,903 --> 00:52:07,903
I don't know if it's maybe not set a legal precedent,

719
00:52:07,983 --> 00:52:10,663
but it does set some kind of precedent that like you can work on free

720
00:52:10,663 --> 00:52:13,763
and open source software that is like in the benefit of Bitcoin.

721
00:52:13,903 --> 00:52:14,743
You're not breaking the law.

722
00:52:14,923 --> 00:52:17,503
Like it seems obvious that there should be a pardon here,

723
00:52:17,603 --> 00:52:19,883
but what can we do to like amplify that message?

724
00:52:19,943 --> 00:52:21,203
What do you need Bitcoiners to do?

725
00:52:21,623 --> 00:52:27,843
So we do have a change.org petition to sign in support of a pardon.

726
00:52:28,123 --> 00:52:28,783
Do they work?

727
00:52:28,803 --> 00:52:42,283
So Ross Albrecht did say that that was instrumental in, because he's had over 100,000 signatures, that that was instrumental in him being able to be granted a pardon by President Trump.

728
00:52:42,283 --> 00:52:51,743
Because they saw that this, again, people care about this topic and they care about this injustice of, in his case, a double life, over a double life sentence.

729
00:52:51,983 --> 00:52:53,503
How many signatures do you have so far?

730
00:52:53,663 --> 00:52:54,983
Just over 15,000.

731
00:52:55,223 --> 00:52:56,323
We need to pump those numbers.

732
00:52:56,503 --> 00:52:56,783
Yes.

733
00:52:57,003 --> 00:52:58,403
Well, I'll make sure that's included.

734
00:52:58,403 --> 00:53:05,044
everyone go and sign that petition. And so the petition is one thing, but I'm sure this legal

735
00:53:05,044 --> 00:53:11,063
case cost you an absolute fortune. Can people still donate to this? I know BPI had their fund

736
00:53:11,063 --> 00:53:16,523
set up where you could go and donate Bitcoin. Is that still there? So BPI's fund was for the

737
00:53:16,523 --> 00:53:25,544
defense costs. They've since closed that, but we do have a lot of legal debt. And so if people do

738
00:53:25,544 --> 00:53:32,044
want to be so generous to help us and kind of say, again, another way to say this is wrong and

739
00:53:32,044 --> 00:53:37,823
we support it. There is a website, billandkeone.org. And through there, there's a link to the petition

740
00:53:37,823 --> 00:53:42,503
they can sign. And then there's also links to Gifts on Go as well as Bitcoin donations.

741
00:53:42,743 --> 00:53:45,523
Okay. Well, I'm going to try and send as many people to those links as possible.

742
00:53:46,023 --> 00:53:51,603
What does this mean for Bill? Because obviously you're fighting for Keone's pardon. Is he also

743
00:53:51,603 --> 00:53:58,423
trying to get pardoned? Yeah. As much as I'm mentioning Keone a lot because he is my husband,

744
00:53:58,703 --> 00:54:03,183
everything we're doing, the fundraising, the petition, as well as the pardon application,

745
00:54:03,363 --> 00:54:09,463
has all been together. They started Samurai together. They're co-founders, co-defendants,

746
00:54:09,463 --> 00:54:16,283
and hopefully co-pardonies. But yeah, everything's been in lockstep with them throughout this

747
00:54:16,283 --> 00:54:22,023
process. He's just, and this is how it was, you know, Keone was the kind of the spokesperson did

748
00:54:22,023 --> 00:54:27,923
the speaking on behalf of Samurai and that's just not what Bill's interests are, so.

749
00:54:28,443 --> 00:54:33,763
Fair. But we need to get them both pardoned. How hopeful are you? Do you think there's a good

750
00:54:33,763 --> 00:54:41,463
chance this happens? I do. I do. Again, it's, you know, so the Southern District of New York is the

751
00:54:41,463 --> 00:54:47,723
same federal prosecutors that went after President Trump. So he knows. He doesn't like him. He doesn't

752
00:54:47,723 --> 00:54:54,603
like them because he knows, he knows, he has an insight where I didn't before this, and I don't

753
00:54:54,603 --> 00:55:01,023
think a lot of the American population has to the fact that they will lie, cheat, you know, do whatever

754
00:55:01,023 --> 00:55:05,623
it takes to win, that they're not after truth, they're not after justice. So the fact that he's

755
00:55:05,623 --> 00:55:09,483
a president who has been through this process, who has had lawfare perpetrated against him,

756
00:55:09,483 --> 00:55:12,903
and can see it,

757
00:55:13,763 --> 00:55:16,903
he's also then someone

758
00:55:16,903 --> 00:55:20,203
who is able to fix the injustice.

759
00:55:20,443 --> 00:55:21,703
And I think he likes to do that.

760
00:55:21,923 --> 00:55:23,103
I think, you know,

761
00:55:23,243 --> 00:55:25,943
given if the case was sat in front of him

762
00:55:25,943 --> 00:55:28,483
and he was able to, you know,

763
00:55:28,503 --> 00:55:30,044
if he watches this podcast, hi,

764
00:55:31,143 --> 00:55:32,803
then he would get it.

765
00:55:32,803 --> 00:55:34,243
If he saw the facts, he'd be on your side.

766
00:55:34,283 --> 00:55:34,463
Yeah.

767
00:55:34,603 --> 00:55:34,843
Yeah.

768
00:55:35,143 --> 00:55:35,963
I think so too.

769
00:55:37,003 --> 00:55:38,523
Can I ask you an awkward question?

770
00:55:38,703 --> 00:55:38,843
Sure.

771
00:55:39,483 --> 00:55:51,564
Obviously, one of the things that was, I believe, going to be brought up in court, one of the things that maybe played against Bill and Keone's defense was some of the tweets that they'd written, which were kind of out there.

772
00:55:52,023 --> 00:55:56,544
I think you can definitely argue that they're joking and it's like tongue in cheek.

773
00:55:56,983 --> 00:56:00,963
But was that a big, was that like an instrumental part of the prosecutor?

774
00:56:01,703 --> 00:56:06,763
That was definitely, I mean, that was their whole case was, look at these things these guys said.

775
00:56:06,763 --> 00:56:13,483
And a lot of them, right, there's one, the Russian oligarch one, they like to point out that I said, welcome Russian oligarch users.

776
00:56:14,203 --> 00:56:20,683
And anyone that, you know, the X handles of Samurai Wallet is still up there. You can go and search.

777
00:56:20,683 --> 00:56:28,283
And if you see welcome new, you know, blank users, you pull up a lot of them. This is a meme template that they used.

778
00:56:28,283 --> 00:56:33,403
And right, they got into, so when we kind of all got into Bitcoin, Bitcoin was this magical internet money.

779
00:56:33,403 --> 00:56:37,643
and there was a lot of people like fun yeah using like unicorns and so it was still kind of that

780
00:56:37,643 --> 00:56:42,283
mentality and i know it's like it's changed a lot it's a lot more serious and you know a lot more

781
00:56:42,283 --> 00:56:48,983
money at stake and yeah everything but that was kind of the ethos still behind it and they didn't

782
00:56:48,983 --> 00:56:52,403
have a you know they didn't have a marketing budget they didn't have this you know relatively

783
00:56:52,403 --> 00:57:01,423
small team and um so right these kind of catchy meme expost tweets whatever you want to call them

784
00:57:01,423 --> 00:57:07,683
were it. And there was, I mean, there was one welcome new Fed users, welcome new Kuwaiti. Like

785
00:57:07,683 --> 00:57:12,203
it was just, it was a template, a meme template that they used. And some of the other things that

786
00:57:12,203 --> 00:57:17,643
they pointed to, that was the big one that really, like, because I think Russia was the bad guy with

787
00:57:17,643 --> 00:57:25,343
the whole Ukraine war. But they mentioned something about, there was a slide deck that

788
00:57:25,343 --> 00:57:30,003
they had posted that, again, they made a big deal out of, and this is a 40 some page invest,

789
00:57:30,003 --> 00:57:34,323
you know, trying to get investors, probably the first slide, one of the first slide decks they made.

790
00:57:34,323 --> 00:57:42,963
And on the far column, it said something about, um, illicit something, I forget the actual

791
00:57:42,963 --> 00:57:48,323
terminology. But if you would flip through a couple of slides before and a couple of slides

792
00:57:48,323 --> 00:57:54,003
after, it was animated where there was a little samurai icon logo saying, these are the things we

793
00:57:54,003 --> 00:58:01,044
want to be in and there was arrows pointing to um we want to be we don't want to be in the on-ramp

794
00:58:01,683 --> 00:58:08,643
the fiat to bitcoin not interested in that we want to be in this little space of wallet

795
00:58:09,283 --> 00:58:15,923
and you know transactional at no point did it did it point to the illicit or anything like that i mean

796
00:58:15,923 --> 00:58:19,603
this point to the poker didn't point to like there's a lot of things on that list but again

797
00:58:19,603 --> 00:58:23,363
It's just their way of cherry picking things to say something

798
00:58:23,443 --> 00:58:25,283
that the original document didn't say at all.

799
00:58:25,363 --> 00:58:27,323
Yeah, I mean, it's one of the tricky things where, like,

800
00:58:27,403 --> 00:58:30,483
the reason that this is an amazing tool for human rights activists,

801
00:58:30,564 --> 00:58:32,803
dissidents, just normal people who want to protect their privacy,

802
00:58:32,883 --> 00:58:34,843
is the same reason that people who are doing illicit things

803
00:58:34,923 --> 00:58:37,564
might want to use it. And it's like, you can't have one without the other.

804
00:58:37,643 --> 00:58:41,523
And I don't think those tweets are at all soliciting Russian oligarchs

805
00:58:41,603 --> 00:58:42,963
to come and use it. It's a joke.

806
00:58:44,163 --> 00:58:47,363
It's crazy that that's what the prosecution was based off.

807
00:58:47,363 --> 00:59:01,863
I mean, the facts were always on your side. Hopefully, I've got everything crossed for you that you do manage to get Q&A and bill pardoned. What's next for you? What do you have to do? What are the steps between here and there?

808
00:59:01,863 --> 00:59:13,483
So, I mean, from my understanding, I don't fully know if I would find out with everyone else if he got a pardon. I'm not sure how that process works.

809
00:59:13,483 --> 00:59:14,443
If you get a heads up or not.

810
00:59:14,443 --> 00:59:28,183
Yeah, there's not too many people that have, I guess, been through this process. But that really is, you know, continuing to raise awareness to the point where I do get that call to go pick him up from prison. That's the end goal.

811
00:59:28,183 --> 00:59:35,383
And that's what's next. But further than that, I think it's important for people to realize that

812
00:59:36,583 --> 00:59:42,983
one, this did stifle innovation, privacy innovation on Bitcoin and innovation in the

813
00:59:42,983 --> 00:59:49,544
space in general. And that's all still needed. I think, I don't know, we get this weird separation

814
00:59:49,544 --> 00:59:56,263
that people forget that the Bitcoin blockchain is exposing your bank or your credit card statements

815
00:59:56,263 --> 01:00:05,463
online for the world to see, good, bad, everywhere in between. And so I hope that if there is a

816
01:00:05,463 --> 01:00:14,583
pardon, that there's some taken seriously, the privacy within the Bitcoin space. And then also,

817
01:00:14,583 --> 01:00:21,303
kind of in a larger scale, that the war on crypto is not over and that people keep-

818
01:00:21,303 --> 01:00:23,143
You don't think it's over?

819
01:00:23,143 --> 01:00:24,143
No.

820
01:00:24,143 --> 01:00:28,483
So have you, because I'm sure you're watching this closely, do you think there has been

821
01:00:28,483 --> 01:00:31,603
any change under Trump, or do you think this is still alive and developers are still at

822
01:00:31,603 --> 01:00:32,603
risk?

823
01:00:32,603 --> 01:00:38,683
So there's definitely been a pause because, thankfully, President Trump is friendly to

824
01:00:38,683 --> 01:00:39,683
this space.

825
01:00:39,683 --> 01:00:47,544
But the people who are starting these investigations, who are bringing the charges, are not the

826
01:00:47,544 --> 01:00:50,843
AG or Deputy AG, these appointed positions.

827
01:00:50,843 --> 01:00:56,443
They are the line prosecutors and the FBI investigators.

828
01:00:56,443 --> 01:01:02,323
These are kind of the lower level people and they still have an ideological lean and they

829
01:01:02,323 --> 01:01:04,943
don't like Bitcoin.

830
01:01:05,103 --> 01:01:11,423
They don't like, you know, that's just so at any point, this could resurface.

831
01:01:11,423 --> 01:01:16,683
And I was saying earlier that I do hope clarity gets passed.

832
01:01:16,823 --> 01:01:19,163
I think there's a lot of protections in there.

833
01:01:19,343 --> 01:01:19,503
Yeah.

834
01:01:19,503 --> 01:01:41,083
But it doesn't necessarily stop a prosecutor from bringing charges like they did here, right? In this case, it was unprecedented, novel theories, taking established, you know, what a whole industry was built on as guidelines, regulations, and turning it on its head.

835
01:01:41,203 --> 01:01:41,423
Yep.

836
01:01:41,564 --> 01:01:42,643
And that can still be done.

837
01:01:42,643 --> 01:01:51,483
I mean, and we saw the chilling effect from that. Like companies left America straight after that, stopped offering services in America. And like, I know a lot of them have come back, but it's not to say that can't happen again.

838
01:01:52,663 --> 01:01:56,064
Well, I hope the next time we do this show is with you and Kione.

839
01:01:56,383 --> 01:01:56,743
Yes.

840
01:01:56,903 --> 01:01:57,663
That would be awesome.

841
01:01:57,963 --> 01:01:59,323
I'll just let him do it. He's much better.

842
01:02:00,143 --> 01:02:10,083
But like, if there's anywhere else you want to send anyone, let them know. If not, I'm going to put those links in the show. Everyone go and sign the petition. If you've got some money that you want to donate, do it.

843
01:02:10,083 --> 01:02:15,643
I really wish you the best of luck. I hope that we are sat here in a few months time doing this

844
01:02:15,643 --> 01:02:19,943
with you and Q&A. Thank you so much for having me on. No, thank you for coming on. It's amazing.

845
01:02:20,183 --> 01:02:21,943
This is the most serious I've been in an interview in a long time.

846
01:02:23,163 --> 01:02:27,683
But thank you so much, Lauren. And I really do wish you all the luck in the world. Thank you.

847
01:02:40,083 --> 01:03:10,064
Thank you.