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If it's three times faster and a third of the cost, that's 10x better than what I have.

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That's the thing that will cause people to switch.

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Uplifting vast swathes of people out of poverty, if we can help towards that, I'm not saying

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we're going to solve that, but if we can help towards that in any tiny way, that's priceless.

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If you give up the ability to transact privately, then effectively Bitcoin goes from being one of the most empowering freedom technologies in the world to being actually a tool for mass surveillance on a level that we have never seen.

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Welcome to Bali, Obi.

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Oh, thank you.

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I mean, you've been here for a while.

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Yeah, I've been finishing off my, this is maybe TMI, but finishing off my honeymoon.

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And then it's merging into a project that we're doing with HRF.

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Yeah, but it was a good end to the honeymoon.

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Yeah, it's hot though.

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This is probably the hottest podcast I've ever done.

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Really?

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Well, outside in Bali, it's pretty hot.

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Well, having spent a big part of the year in Kenya, I would say this.

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Yeah, fair enough.

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Like my wife, it's weird to say that now,

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but my wife is constantly wearing jumpers here.

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Really?

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Yeah, that's not good for me.

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Very different level of heat and temperature acclimatization.

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I mean, I live in Australia. I still never got used to it.

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I've got like three fans pointing at me right now.

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But I think the place to start, Obi,

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you just asked Eric, who's sat in the background,

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what he's excited about and what he's concerned about

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in Bitcoin at the moment.

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I think there's a lot to be excited about.

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The concerns I have are the ones around privacy devs being put in jail.

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I think that's one of the scariest things happening in Bitcoin at the moment.

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But for you, what are you excited about?

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What are you concerned about?

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Excited and concerned.

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I'm actually very excited about the fact how people are perceiving and just how boring things are.

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Bitcoin has an incredible amount of development happening.

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If you went back one or two years ago, you had lots of detractors saying,

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nothing interesting is happening in the development side.

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But now we have a ton of stuff happening, obviously in eCash and in communities,

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not just with Fedi, but with Chorus and so on, but also other technologies.

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Whatever your views are on them, things like BitVM, it's really interesting.

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I agree.

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We're seeing...

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ARK, that's exciting.

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ARK is exciting.

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Spark is really interesting as well.

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Even seeing there's drama.

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There's debates between knots and core.

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And you have the Bitcoin treasury companies and ETFs.

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And with all of this, it's still, relatively speaking,

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there's not that many people in the general public talking about Bitcoin.

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It's become, and I think that's not that we're early or that we're late.

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It's just that we've arrived and we are here.

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We're now part of the woodwork.

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It's part of the norm.

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Going back to a world pre-Bitcoin,

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I don't think it's anybody's mind.

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It's anybody's sort of psyche or perception anymore.

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It's like mobile phones or smartphones.

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They're no longer than you knew.

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They're just part of life.

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Yeah, I totally agree.

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And there's a lot to talk about in the Knots Core debate,

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but this show is not going to go out

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for another six weeks or something.

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So we better not talk about that

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because things will have changed.

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But you brought up kind of the adoption of Bitcoin

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And that's one of the things that I wanted to really talk to you about is,

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is global Bitcoin adoption actually happening yet?

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Because, so I, we were in Africa nearly two years ago.

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We went to Ghana and Malawi and Kenya.

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And I didn't see that much Bitcoin usage.

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Like it was still very niche then, I think.

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I don't know how it's changed since then.

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We're here in Bali.

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I'm pretty excited to see what people are doing with Bitcoin in Indonesia.

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But like wherever I go,

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it still tends to be like a niche group of us nerdy Bitcoiners doing cool Bitcoin things.

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But I don't feel like it's spread out of that yet.

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So first of all, what do you define as adoption?

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I want to see people using Bitcoin, like actually using Bitcoin for things like payments,

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which I know is what you're working on at Fedi.

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But so when we were in those three African countries, I know it's just a small microcosm,

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but I didn't really see people using it.

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And I don't know why that is.

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So I think your perception is and was correct.

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We have spent a long time in multiple countries.

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So in Africa, multiple countries across East, West,

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and South, Southern Africa, all across Latin America,

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all across Southeast Asia, and actually East Asia, South Asia, and so on.

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And in Europe, and to a lesser extent, Europe and the Western world.

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Working on the ground to understand communities,

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understand their perception around Bitcoin.

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And when we started, we had this view that

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If you just make the technology easy enough and powerful enough, people will start using Bitcoin for payments.

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I think what we've found over the last few years is that still Bitcoin is being adopted.

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It's being adopted worldwide, but it is being adopted as a store of value in the greatest extent.

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And that could be a store of value from the point.

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And it could even be before that.

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It could be adopted as a speculative asset to a way to build wealth.

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Because if you're starting from a position of not having that much wealth,

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the first thing you want to do is gain more wealth

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because that gives you more freedom.

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Our objective is to give people financial freedom.

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And part of that is having disposable income

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and then using disposable income to build more wealth,

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which you can then invest for your children, your family, your health, etc.

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So that still is the predominant use case.

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We do see it being used for payments in various circumstances,

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but they tend to be at scenarios when other things just are not able to work.

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So you saw this happen not for payments, but for store of value and wealth for even large institutions.

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famously, you had Michael Saylor as the last resort decide, OK,

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damn this, I'm going to go off and try and buy Bitcoin instead of seeing my money lose value.

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RAOUL PAL, Yeah.

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RAOUL PAL, And over time, then he started to understand and he focused on now micro strategy,

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strategy, and so on. The same thing happens at a micro level in people's minds around the world.

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there are scenarios where you have no other option other than to use a tool like Bitcoin.

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And then you use it.

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And at that point, when you use it, you then start to slowly understand other aspects about the technology and about the money.

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And then you eventually move over more and more to a Bitcoin standard, where more of your wealth is in Bitcoin.

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You initially don't want to spend it.

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But once you run out of all other options, then you have to spend it because beyond the

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acquisition of Bitcoin is the desire for a roof over my head and food in my belly and

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good quality medicine, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it is a progression. We're seeing

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store of value, medium of exchange. And then at that point, people who are big Bitcoiners,

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they start thinking about Bitcoin and how many Bitcoin I own or how many sats I own.

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At that point, you're effectively using it as a unit of account.

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What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

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It's funny because that is the progression that everyone talks about,

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going store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account.

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I think for me, it's gone store of value, and it is my unit of account.

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Like if I'm spending money on something, I do think in Bitcoin terms.

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Medium exchange has been harder because you just don't have the option to pay in Bitcoin in that many places yet.

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Like when you go to a Bitcoin conference, obviously things are easy.

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But outside of that, in just normal day-to-day life, I can very rarely spend Bitcoin.

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So is this just like a chicken and egg problem with making this an actual currency rather than just a store of value?

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Yeah, I think it is.

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It's simply it is that.

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And so that's why there are different.

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We've tried many different experiments

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with different organizations, ranging from human rights

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defenders to humanitarian organizations

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to communities, disempowered communities,

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and actually to quite affluent communities as well, to compare.

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And some, I would say there were 14 different types

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of experiments we had initially.

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Then they whittled down to four.

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And now we have, and those are our biggest focus.

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And I would say that the interesting ones have an element of solving the chicken and the egg.

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And then once you solve the chicken and the egg so that people view Bitcoin as the mechanism for a medium of exchange,

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and they start using it every day as a medium of exchange, you can have a different order where it starts with a medium of exchange.

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I'm using this thing, Bitcoin, or sats, actually, because the numbers that we're talking about

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is sats.

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Using this thing called sats to pay for things and use things.

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But I don't know what it is, but it's giving me something I value.

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And after a while, I start realizing, wait a minute, this thing is going up in value.

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And then I start thinking about it as a store of value.

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So it is possible to go medium of exchange, store of value, and then you know the account

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as well, but you have to solve the chicken and egg. I can give you some examples of that.

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Yeah, please do.

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So this one is actually really exciting. We have created a satellite internet service,

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starting in Kenya. And we're calling it Satenet, S-A-T-E-N-E-T, like satellite internet, Satenet.

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and you pay for it in SATs.

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So satellite internet pay for in SATs.

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Internet penetration, most of the world is actually pretty good.

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Southeast Asia is pretty good and so on.

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The only sore spot is Africa.

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There's still 300, 400 million people

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who don't have access to good quality internet

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or at an affordable price.

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And what is the internet?

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Like when these people do have internet,

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is it like 4G type internet?

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No, 4G, sometimes 5G over your mobile phone.

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But it's really, really expensive.

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And so it may be three, four, five, six, seven times the cost of the cost here, for example,

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in Bali or in the West.

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And the quality is lower at way higher cost with people whose disposable income is less.

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The average middle class, I just saw a study on FT the other day, the average middle class

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family or person in Africa has a monthly income, according to the FT.

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So I haven't verified this, but this was the stat of $200 to $300 a month equivalent.

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That's the average.

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So if you're paying more for your internet, and you think about what you pay for your internet

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bill right now, it's a much, much higher percentage of your salary just to get internet.

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And even then, people still want it because it's so valuable.

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I mean, in US dollars, I think my internet is something like $50 a month.

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Yeah, but I don't want you to say your salary, but as a percentage of its salary,

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It's not the same as someone who says $200 a month.

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It starts becoming 10%, 20%, 30% of your salary to spend on internet.

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But they still do, which proves that it's so valuable, people are willing to spend that.

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And the reason why is that the telecoms companies can charge that.

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They can get away with it.

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It's hard to set up their infrastructure, so they do.

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What we experimented with SatiNet is instead of trying to teach people about Bitcoin directly,

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why don't we solve the chicken and give them something that we know a large percentage of

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people will want um in this case it's it's internet um and um then we will but you can only the point

229
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,520
is you can only pay for this in e-cash with sats so you can only pay for your satellite internet

230
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:17,040
in sats and that's the only way and we set up these starlink um like um services in different

231
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:26,000
places. And we've tried in some of the biggest slums in Nairobi and also in rural Africa. And

232
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:31,680
we set these up and we've been observing to see how it goes. And that's still very early days.

233
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:38,480
But the feedback has been really, really interesting. One, people started using it.

234
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,800
They didn't explain what sats were. Their assumption probably is just the token for satellite internet.

235
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,080
How do they get sats?

236
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,080
So to get the sats, there's multiple mechanisms.

237
00:15:48,740 --> 00:15:51,480
So for example, there is, within the Fedi app,

238
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:52,880
we have these things called mini apps.

239
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,640
And mini apps are just websites.

240
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,300
It's got a built-in web browser in the app.

241
00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:01,580
And there are apps that you can see now

242
00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:03,940
for almost every service in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

243
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:05,500
But they're all over the place.

244
00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:07,120
You have to have Chrome, you have to find them.

245
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,680
We have this sort of mini app store,

246
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,260
which allows you to find the mini app that you want

247
00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:16,580
and use it for your benefit.

248
00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:18,620
I can quickly show you on a screen.

249
00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:19,880
This is a really ignorant question, Ovi.

250
00:16:19,980 --> 00:16:22,220
But if you see here, I've got the app open.

251
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:29,280
If I have an app catalog, this takes you to a page

252
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,240
where I can see some of the Fedi mini apps

253
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,760
which are available.

254
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:44,340
and many of the popular ones allow you to swap from your local currency to bitcoin so if we go to

255
00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:51,620
or to spend bitcoin to earn bitcoin etc one of them in kenya there are mini apps that allow you to

256
00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:58,860
take mpeso which is the mobile money which is incredibly popular in kenya and you can it can

257
00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:04,320
You can send that to a phone number, and in return,

258
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,120
get sats and eCash directly into the Fedimod.

259
00:17:08,120 --> 00:17:11,760
So most of the people would use in these rural areas.

260
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:20,280
We also have, there's also local brokers who effectively

261
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:21,940
are trusted and so on.

262
00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:24,960
And we try to vet them and introduce them

263
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:25,980
to these communities.

264
00:17:25,980 --> 00:17:29,960
So people locally can take cash as well.

265
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,920
But you'll find that very quickly,

266
00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,940
most people, when a service like this exists in your area,

267
00:17:35,380 --> 00:17:37,380
they will use that because just within the app,

268
00:17:37,420 --> 00:17:38,460
they click a couple of buttons

269
00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:39,960
and they've just got stats in their pocket

270
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,740
and they can send it directly using the tools

271
00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:43,780
they're already aware of.

272
00:17:44,140 --> 00:17:46,180
Can you do, I don't know if this is even possible,

273
00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:48,240
but can you make Fedi work

274
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,840
even if they don't have like internet minutes who's starting?

275
00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:52,480
Like because you're providing the internet service

276
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:53,560
through this product,

277
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,260
can you allow them to still use Fedi

278
00:17:55,260 --> 00:17:56,600
if they don't have any internet?

279
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,220
Yeah, so when you connect to, and we do,

280
00:18:00,420 --> 00:18:01,920
when you connect to the service,

281
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,900
you can use aspects of Feddy.

282
00:18:05,380 --> 00:18:06,420
It can recognize it,

283
00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:08,420
and you can use aspects of Feddy for a period of time.

284
00:18:08,780 --> 00:18:09,700
So if you want to top up,

285
00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:11,100
you can still get online to top up.

286
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:11,980
Yeah, you can still get online.

287
00:18:12,140 --> 00:18:14,600
And also, eCash, we've demonstrated this

288
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:15,500
like a couple of years ago,

289
00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:18,260
but you can send eCash to it offline.

290
00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:20,140
So if you already have received,

291
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:22,560
you already have a balance,

292
00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:24,800
even if your data runs out,

293
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,000
you can still use that balance to top up your internet,

294
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,200
even without internet connection, and then get more internet.

295
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,720
And that's one of the powers of eCash.

296
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,040
So again, within the same app, you can see your balance,

297
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,560
pay for your internet, you can use certain limited services

298
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,840
without paying for the internet as well.

299
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,320
And when you pay for it, you have now full high speed, high quality internet

300
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,640
that's faster than the internet you get locally at a third of the cost.

301
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:53,240
That's amazing.

302
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,160
So that's compelling.

303
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,360
That solves the 10x better.

304
00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,200
If it's three times faster and a third of the cost,

305
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,820
that's 10x better than what I have.

306
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,560
That's the thing that will cause people to switch.

307
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,440
And so people take, and we put them in busy areas,

308
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,500
like the equivalent of the high street,

309
00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:11,840
the town square, as it were, where communities congregate.

310
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:14,280
And people will come there and hang around there

311
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,640
so that they can access this high-quality internet.

312
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,660
They're doing gig work from there.

313
00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:25,620
They're starting to study for more qualifications,

314
00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:31,300
because they have these ambitions to be able to receive

315
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,660
qualifications that will allow them to earn more money

316
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:34,260
and more value.

317
00:19:34,260 --> 00:19:36,020
Most people want to best of their life.

318
00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:38,620
And because of that, they're willing to go through,

319
00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:42,300
because it is, go through the hoops needed to, because why,

320
00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:45,740
I mean, why not just pay with Impessa directly

321
00:19:45,740 --> 00:19:46,420
for this internet?

322
00:19:46,420 --> 00:19:46,820
Yeah.

323
00:19:46,820 --> 00:19:49,660
Because, well, no, because that's

324
00:19:49,660 --> 00:19:54,300
the price you have to pay you have to pay in sats for satellite internet sats for satellite internet

325
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:59,740
because okay um and then they start paying but then what happens is just like you're now in bali

326
00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:08,220
your unit of account beyond bitcoin is um the aussie dollar yes but you have i guess you have

327
00:20:08,220 --> 00:20:14,620
a few bali balinese indonesian rupiah yep with you why because it doesn't make sense every time

328
00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:19,020
you want to buy a cup of coffee to go to a bureau of exchange and withdraw exactly what you need for

329
00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:23,900
that cup of coffee of course you start forming you start holding another balance in that currency

330
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:28,140
it's just convenient because and and the same thing happens here you start holding a balance

331
00:20:28,140 --> 00:20:33,580
but then you start holding a balance in sets and you'll say well internet costs you this much

332
00:20:33,580 --> 00:20:37,900
kenyan shillings which is this many sets the price stays the same in kenyan shillings

333
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:43,580
but the but the amount of sats for it changes as bitcoin's price starts to move you start to notice

334
00:20:43,580 --> 00:20:48,780
over time that, wait a minute, I need less sats each time to start buying this internet.

335
00:20:48,780 --> 00:20:50,220
Why did I put more money in sats?

336
00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:55,380
So then you start thinking, this sats thing, if I hold it for a period of time and hold

337
00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:58,700
a balance, I'm able to buy more sats than I expected to be able to buy.

338
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,860
And that's when you start thinking, maybe, well, this was the hypothesis.

339
00:21:03,660 --> 00:21:09,400
And this was the hope that people start thinking, maybe I put more money in, as you said, to

340
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,720
use it to save in it.

341
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,200
And that's what we're seeing.

342
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,040
We just, again, very early numbers, very early stages.

343
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,060
But we've seen two things.

344
00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:22,780
One, large demand for more of these spots to set up.

345
00:21:22,780 --> 00:21:25,280
So people want to see it in more regions and more,

346
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,160
which is a good point.

347
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,700
And two, based on the latest numbers,

348
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,820
we're expecting it to take a lot longer.

349
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:37,000
25% of the people who are using it

350
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:43,320
are now depositing money for the purposes of holding the SATs.

351
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:43,960
RAOUL PAL, Oh, that's cool.

352
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,680
RAOUL PAL, And saving.

353
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:45,800
So but they didn't start with that.

354
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,600
We didn't suggest it.

355
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:47,800
We didn't educate about that.

356
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,200
We educated about using it for internet.

357
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,320
And they're still using it for internet as well,

358
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,920
but they're holding a little bit extra.

359
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,720
That's 25%.

360
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,240
And that's after only a few weeks.

361
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,280
So I'm really excited to see that because we're seeing there's a different path.

362
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,480
Because the store of value followed by medium exchange,

363
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,640
followed by unit of account is only possible for people who have disposable income.

364
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,220
If you start with store of value, that must mean that you have value to store.

365
00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:11,780
Yeah, that was going to be one of my questions.

366
00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:17,400
And so therefore, the majority of people in the world who have no disposable income cannot take that path.

367
00:22:17,620 --> 00:22:19,900
Yeah, that was going to be one of my questions.

368
00:22:19,980 --> 00:22:23,520
Because back to the idea of Bitcoin at the moment is really just a store of value.

369
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,460
There's tools being worked on that are amazing, and we are moving in the right direction.

370
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,080
But for most of the world, people just see this as a store of value.

371
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,300
And like in the US, in Europe, in the UK and Australia,

372
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:36,680
like that use case is really clear and really prevalent.

373
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:39,380
But is there like a capital issue in the rest of the world

374
00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:41,780
that make that a hard leap?

375
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,640
Because like you were saying just before we started recording,

376
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:45,800
you've got an employee in every continent now.

377
00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:49,460
Like how are these other places?

378
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:50,400
Other than the Antarctic.

379
00:22:50,580 --> 00:22:52,120
You did the clever thing.

380
00:22:52,420 --> 00:22:53,040
I'm sorry.

381
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,980
You made me admit that I don't have one continent, yeah.

382
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:57,140
But like, is there a capital problem

383
00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:59,320
that stops these people adopting Bitcoin as a store of value

384
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,860
because they don't have value to store.

385
00:23:00,860 --> 00:23:02,200
You mean our employees or?

386
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:17,215
No I mean the people in the Global South who just don like some of these won have enough money to even think about or store about If you have no value to store then you can store value Yeah You can If you need a month to live and have a roof over your head and not die

387
00:23:17,335 --> 00:23:17,555
Yeah.

388
00:23:18,055 --> 00:23:23,515
And you earn $10 a month, you can't spend $1 into Bitcoin because then you will die.

389
00:23:23,875 --> 00:23:24,755
So yes.

390
00:23:25,075 --> 00:23:26,515
And that's the majority of people.

391
00:23:26,595 --> 00:23:26,995
They have no idea.

392
00:23:27,035 --> 00:23:27,935
They live hand to mouth.

393
00:23:28,495 --> 00:23:32,475
So but if we can provide them a service that saves them money.

394
00:23:32,475 --> 00:23:38,935
so so they're now their monthly expenditure goes from 10 to 9 and it's providing them a better

395
00:23:38,935 --> 00:23:43,415
quality service so they start using that service because otherwise the people are living busy

396
00:23:43,415 --> 00:23:47,735
lives they've not got time to understand the thing that you wanted to understand yeah so even if

397
00:23:47,735 --> 00:23:51,315
something betters their life if it requires time to understand a lot of people are just surviving

398
00:23:51,315 --> 00:23:58,075
um so but if you just tell them you know i know you need um internet i know you need electricity

399
00:23:58,075 --> 00:24:02,755
you know you need that i don't have to explain why that's useful and i'm giving you electricity

400
00:24:02,755 --> 00:24:06,675
that's cheaper than you had before i'm giving you internet that's better than you had before

401
00:24:06,675 --> 00:24:11,375
oh and by the way it's powered by and i'm not even explaining how it's powered to begin with

402
00:24:11,375 --> 00:24:17,615
you start they will switch because it's better it's significantly better but because it the

403
00:24:17,615 --> 00:24:23,075
kicker is because it requires or it involves bitcoin in some way that permeates across the

404
00:24:23,075 --> 00:24:23,935
psyche of the group.

405
00:24:25,015 --> 00:24:27,915
We're only a stone's throw away from Gridless.

406
00:24:28,795 --> 00:24:33,555
One of the communities is in the same community that Gridless works.

407
00:24:34,115 --> 00:24:36,235
And what prompted this was actually a tweet I did.

408
00:24:36,255 --> 00:24:40,515
I don't tweet much these days because it's just generally a minefield to tweet.

409
00:24:40,835 --> 00:24:42,815
And I prefer proof of work over proof of talk.

410
00:24:43,495 --> 00:24:49,155
But one of the last tweets I did a couple of years ago was about this idea of a Bitcoin

411
00:24:49,155 --> 00:24:50,295
frontier town.

412
00:24:50,975 --> 00:24:52,315
And this was a picture.

413
00:24:52,315 --> 00:24:57,755
It was me, Eric Hirschman, and the guys from Block, Jack, and Miles, and others.

414
00:24:59,115 --> 00:25:07,735
And it was one of the first Bitcoin mining huts, literally a hut, in Kenya, in the outback

415
00:25:07,735 --> 00:25:14,955
of Kenya, effectively, that was helping make the renewable energy production there affordable.

416
00:25:15,315 --> 00:25:16,215
Is this the one on the lake?

417
00:25:17,355 --> 00:25:18,295
It was on the lake, yes.

418
00:25:18,295 --> 00:25:18,995
Yeah, I've been there.

419
00:25:18,995 --> 00:25:23,775
A year before we went there, I'd been and there was this vision.

420
00:25:24,035 --> 00:25:26,295
And I said, welcome to the first Bitcoin frontier town.

421
00:25:26,535 --> 00:25:29,495
And this is like the frontier towns in the US of old.

422
00:25:30,795 --> 00:25:35,315
But instead of powered by age-old technology, it's powered by Bitcoin.

423
00:25:35,315 --> 00:25:44,395
So instead of having coal and mining and oil mining and oil production,

424
00:25:44,755 --> 00:25:47,475
you're having renewables, hydro and solar.

425
00:25:47,475 --> 00:25:52,355
instead of gold mining, you have Bitcoin mining.

426
00:25:52,775 --> 00:25:58,915
Instead of having these local outback banks,

427
00:25:59,335 --> 00:26:02,575
the local village banks, you have Fedimance and Fedi.

428
00:26:03,215 --> 00:26:07,275
And instead of roads and railways connecting

429
00:26:07,275 --> 00:26:08,635
these different communities to cover,

430
00:26:08,735 --> 00:26:10,555
you use the internet to connect with the other.

431
00:26:11,075 --> 00:26:12,155
And that was the idea.

432
00:26:12,495 --> 00:26:14,675
And that's stuck with me ever since.

433
00:26:14,675 --> 00:26:15,155
I love that.

434
00:26:15,155 --> 00:26:20,155
Now, on the energy and mining side,

435
00:26:20,235 --> 00:26:22,235
you've got Gridless working away with that,

436
00:26:22,315 --> 00:26:23,955
and they're doing great stuff on mining,

437
00:26:24,035 --> 00:26:26,835
and they're also now expanding into energy production as well

438
00:26:26,915 --> 00:26:28,475
because they work really well.

439
00:26:28,555 --> 00:26:31,275
But what we're seeing is this really strong tie

440
00:26:31,355 --> 00:26:35,315
between the banking and internet.

441
00:26:35,395 --> 00:26:36,995
And that's what we're providing with SatayNet.

442
00:26:37,075 --> 00:26:38,395
It's effectively the other side.

443
00:26:38,475 --> 00:26:41,035
So we provide internet,

444
00:26:41,115 --> 00:26:43,275
which is you get connecting you to the rest of the world.

445
00:26:43,355 --> 00:26:44,875
And we're seeing this where people are talking about

446
00:26:44,875 --> 00:26:50,535
are now studying on these with remote universities because of the internet screen. It wasn't

447
00:26:50,535 --> 00:26:54,815
affordable with the old internet. Now it's affordable. We've improved the infrastructure

448
00:26:54,815 --> 00:27:00,195
for transportation because we've just dematerialized it effectively and brought it at a lower cost.

449
00:27:00,695 --> 00:27:07,315
But we've also, the key thing is we can do this at cost because we don't need to make money from

450
00:27:07,315 --> 00:27:13,375
that. We just use that as a mechanism for people to start spending in sats with e-cash. And if

451
00:27:13,375 --> 00:27:17,795
they start spending in Satsafi cash, we earn transaction fees on that as well. We also earn

452
00:27:17,795 --> 00:27:24,955
when people custody as well. So we earn custody fees, we earn transaction fees. And as time goes

453
00:27:24,955 --> 00:27:30,075
by, they start building wealth. And as they start building wealth, they start storing that in Bitcoin.

454
00:27:30,455 --> 00:27:35,415
And the more they store over time, the more we earn from custody fees and transaction fees.

455
00:27:35,875 --> 00:27:41,455
So we don't have to, and unlike a telecoms company who has to make money directly from the internet,

456
00:27:41,455 --> 00:27:42,095
We don't.

457
00:27:42,175 --> 00:27:44,935
We just have to use that as the chicken to move them over to Bitcoin.

458
00:27:45,215 --> 00:27:47,395
Because as they gain wealth, we gain wealth.

459
00:27:47,575 --> 00:27:52,115
And that allows us to be always disruptively cheaper than an internet company

460
00:27:52,115 --> 00:27:54,475
because we don't need to make profit from that.

461
00:27:54,915 --> 00:27:55,675
So why?

462
00:27:55,875 --> 00:27:58,455
I know you're not solely focused on Africa at Fedi.

463
00:27:58,575 --> 00:28:00,595
You're focused all over the world.

464
00:28:00,835 --> 00:28:03,155
But personally, you obviously have a focus on Africa.

465
00:28:03,215 --> 00:28:04,775
I know you have family from Nigeria.

466
00:28:06,295 --> 00:28:07,135
And now from Kenya.

467
00:28:07,315 --> 00:28:07,995
And now from Kenya.

468
00:28:08,355 --> 00:28:10,335
So why have you chosen to focus there?

469
00:28:10,335 --> 00:28:11,595
Do you think there's an opportunity for,

470
00:28:11,775 --> 00:28:14,295
like I know Charlene Federipo, who's amazing,

471
00:28:14,495 --> 00:28:17,695
has written a book about like the leap that Africa can take here.

472
00:28:17,815 --> 00:28:19,355
Like, do you think there's a massive opportunity

473
00:28:19,355 --> 00:28:21,615
for people in Africa to benefit from Bitcoin

474
00:28:21,615 --> 00:28:24,375
in a way that the rest of the world maybe doesn't have?

475
00:28:24,775 --> 00:28:28,615
So just to be clear, your first statement was correct.

476
00:28:29,255 --> 00:28:30,875
FedE as a company is global.

477
00:28:30,875 --> 00:28:33,475
And I talked about one initiative,

478
00:28:34,035 --> 00:28:36,495
and that's really exciting.

479
00:28:36,615 --> 00:28:39,095
But there's a second one that's actually the bigger one,

480
00:28:39,095 --> 00:28:41,715
which is a global initiative that we will talk about in a bit.

481
00:28:42,155 --> 00:28:45,135
But what makes Africa interesting,

482
00:28:45,135 --> 00:28:49,415
and I think there's three groups that I'm particularly interested in.

483
00:28:50,155 --> 00:28:54,335
One are the humanitarian groups.

484
00:28:54,895 --> 00:28:57,535
And we've worked with organizations that save the children,

485
00:28:57,995 --> 00:29:01,735
RefUnite, and they are global organizations.

486
00:29:02,375 --> 00:29:06,895
And they help people who need humanitarian assistance.

487
00:29:06,895 --> 00:29:12,295
Another big thing, which is the reason why we set up Fedi in the first place, and the

488
00:29:12,295 --> 00:29:15,555
reason why we're here on this trek is human rights defenders.

489
00:29:15,555 --> 00:29:21,495
And we have worked with human rights defenders around the world, some in very challenging

490
00:29:21,495 --> 00:29:22,495
scenarios.

491
00:29:22,495 --> 00:29:26,695
Many of those, we can't always talk about so publicly.

492
00:29:26,695 --> 00:29:31,515
But behind the scenes, we're helping them, where it's important for them to have tools

493
00:29:31,515 --> 00:29:35,835
that are very easy to use, but provide them privacy on the ground.

494
00:29:35,835 --> 00:29:45,595
And that's again, literally, Fedi was set up after an event in Norway, in fact, where

495
00:29:45,595 --> 00:29:49,615
we met some incredible human rights defenders.

496
00:29:49,615 --> 00:29:52,975
And the idea came about that we can provide them tools.

497
00:29:52,975 --> 00:29:59,755
They have the need for privacy and a real valid need for privacy, because if their privacy

498
00:29:59,755 --> 00:30:04,655
is lost, they can be arrested, tortured, and killed, or their family and friends can be.

499
00:30:04,655 --> 00:30:09,595
So they have the need and they are very, very strong communities with very high trust.

500
00:30:09,595 --> 00:30:10,995
So it was a perfect fit.

501
00:30:12,075 --> 00:30:19,635
And then finally, there are disempowered communities around the world and a large percentage of those happen to be in Africa.

502
00:30:20,155 --> 00:30:26,975
And then combine that with my historical, you know, my family was from Nigeria or is from Nigeria.

503
00:30:27,315 --> 00:30:29,535
My wife now is from Kenya.

504
00:30:29,535 --> 00:30:36,775
you see that the number of disempowered communities there is, they're all over the world,

505
00:30:36,815 --> 00:30:41,275
but it's larger than many other parts. And so therefore, the opportunity to uplift them

506
00:30:41,275 --> 00:30:48,735
by giving them the superpower of having disposable income, having savings. Having some savings is

507
00:30:48,735 --> 00:30:52,935
the beginning of everything. You can't have a house without savings. You can't have a car.

508
00:30:53,175 --> 00:30:56,775
And then with the car, you can then go off and earn more money and so on and so forth.

509
00:30:56,795 --> 00:30:58,835
You can't even think about the future. You just have to think about today.

510
00:30:58,835 --> 00:31:03,315
And that requires you to do that en masse.

511
00:31:03,555 --> 00:31:10,215
I think Bitcoin is the most asymmetric opportunity to en masse give people who are currently living

512
00:31:10,215 --> 00:31:12,495
hand-to-mouth the opportunity to have savings.

513
00:31:13,075 --> 00:31:19,275
And once you give them opportunity, even though in terms of revenue, the other projects that

514
00:31:19,275 --> 00:31:25,795
are much more globally focused that benefit people around the world will generate more

515
00:31:25,795 --> 00:31:26,215
money.

516
00:31:26,215 --> 00:31:30,515
but in terms of impact and value to the world,

517
00:31:30,955 --> 00:31:36,495
I think uplifting vast swathes of people out of poverty,

518
00:31:36,495 --> 00:31:37,935
if we can help towards that,

519
00:31:38,015 --> 00:31:39,255
I'm not saying we're going to solve that,

520
00:31:39,455 --> 00:31:41,555
but we can help towards that in any tiny way,

521
00:31:42,015 --> 00:31:43,815
that's priceless.

522
00:31:44,415 --> 00:31:46,155
The other thing that is really interesting,

523
00:31:46,315 --> 00:31:50,595
and this is maybe not so obvious,

524
00:31:51,175 --> 00:31:53,495
but this is for all three of those groups,

525
00:31:53,495 --> 00:31:57,695
is that even though they don't necessarily make the most money,

526
00:31:58,415 --> 00:32:03,235
they are by far the most challenging to help and service.

527
00:32:03,695 --> 00:32:04,235
Why is that?

528
00:32:04,835 --> 00:32:07,115
Because they have real privacy needs.

529
00:32:07,175 --> 00:32:09,535
It's not just, I want privacy philosophically.

530
00:32:09,855 --> 00:32:11,935
I want privacy or I die or I get tortured.

531
00:32:12,815 --> 00:32:19,935
Or I have mobile phones that are not the latest and greatest $2,000 iPhone,

532
00:32:19,935 --> 00:32:22,695
but they're like really, you know, $50,

533
00:32:25,075 --> 00:32:26,675
just about called smartphones,

534
00:32:26,975 --> 00:32:28,735
which are way slower than what you expect.

535
00:32:29,615 --> 00:32:30,935
I have one of those,

536
00:32:31,175 --> 00:32:33,535
even now that's actually quite a medium range-ish phone.

537
00:32:33,775 --> 00:32:36,135
And it's just super frustrating to use.

538
00:32:36,135 --> 00:32:37,515
You have that just to test that the software actually works.

539
00:32:37,515 --> 00:32:39,275
Just to test that it works and have the experience.

540
00:32:39,675 --> 00:32:43,275
And that's a big thing I want more people

541
00:32:43,275 --> 00:32:46,495
to start thinking about going from aware.

542
00:32:46,635 --> 00:32:49,335
Well, first of all, there's a lack of awareness

543
00:32:49,335 --> 00:32:52,795
of how outside of people's personal bubbles.

544
00:32:53,115 --> 00:32:54,815
The next phase is to have awareness.

545
00:32:55,675 --> 00:33:00,515
And I think there are a lot of you and others

546
00:33:00,515 --> 00:33:02,335
are working to get awareness.

547
00:33:02,655 --> 00:33:04,555
But the real phase, and this is something

548
00:33:04,555 --> 00:33:06,555
I have to work on every day,

549
00:33:07,055 --> 00:33:09,935
is to get experience understanding it.

550
00:33:10,055 --> 00:33:12,695
Not just going somewhere, but living that life

551
00:33:12,695 --> 00:33:13,735
for a period of time.

552
00:33:14,335 --> 00:33:16,795
And trust me, if you tried to live it for a week,

553
00:33:16,875 --> 00:33:18,615
you'd probably run away screaming.

554
00:33:18,615 --> 00:33:24,215
It will feel like being in the worst sort of gulag prison compared to the life of the

555
00:33:24,215 --> 00:33:24,855
average Westerner.

556
00:33:26,135 --> 00:33:28,195
So that's one of the reasons why I have that mobile phone.

557
00:33:28,355 --> 00:33:33,535
But for us at FEDE, because we're dealing with these communities, people who are under

558
00:33:33,535 --> 00:33:40,795
the Okoforotan regimes, people who have been ravaged by environmental disaster, or people

559
00:33:40,795 --> 00:33:46,055
who are at the end of the socioeconomic scale.

560
00:33:47,055 --> 00:33:52,215
You have to deal with spotty bad internet.

561
00:33:52,635 --> 00:33:56,015
You have to deal with really underpowered devices.

562
00:33:56,515 --> 00:33:58,855
You have to deal with real security concerns.

563
00:33:59,615 --> 00:34:01,755
And you have to deal with,

564
00:34:01,935 --> 00:34:05,475
sometimes literacy levels are lower in these countries.

565
00:34:06,555 --> 00:34:07,975
Issues with eyesight.

566
00:34:07,975 --> 00:34:15,735
all these things because you know cataracts and so on and undiagnosed um um short um i

567
00:34:15,735 --> 00:34:21,515
eyesight issues and all of the sort of stuff that's that other people don't have to think about

568
00:34:21,515 --> 00:34:28,315
and as a result the app that you end up building is like this sort of battle it's this honey badger

569
00:34:28,315 --> 00:34:35,395
type app effectively because honey badgers are formed in the furnace of challenge um and what

570
00:34:35,395 --> 00:34:40,415
What often you can see if you don't have that is you have lots of apps that are interesting

571
00:34:40,415 --> 00:34:47,955
and they show interesting ideas, but they're not really commercially or operationally viable.

572
00:34:47,955 --> 00:34:51,495
They're always sort of science projects.

573
00:34:51,495 --> 00:34:56,575
And what we've got here is, and it's still, again, we've got years of just like taking

574
00:34:56,575 --> 00:34:59,195
the iPhone or Android or iOS.

575
00:34:59,195 --> 00:35:02,635
It's years development to get it to be what we want and you'll probably never achieve it.

576
00:35:02,635 --> 00:35:04,555
They've been working that for two decades.

577
00:35:04,555 --> 00:35:09,615
But it is, and there's still a long list of things we're going to do, but it's just this

578
00:35:09,615 --> 00:35:10,515
battle-hardened device.

579
00:35:10,515 --> 00:35:18,455
So then when you take it to a larger audience, it's going to be way more polished and way

580
00:35:18,455 --> 00:35:21,475
more able to handle scenarios that other apps can't.

581
00:35:21,615 --> 00:35:22,755
Perfect example is WhatsApp.

582
00:35:23,275 --> 00:35:27,735
WhatsApp is an incredibly popular app, and it just works almost everywhere.

583
00:35:28,295 --> 00:35:28,515
Why?

584
00:35:28,675 --> 00:35:31,795
Because they put a lot of effort getting it to work in the global self.

585
00:35:31,795 --> 00:35:37,555
so spotty internet it just works because a big part of the market had that but if you if you

586
00:35:37,555 --> 00:35:41,035
just build in the west where everybody has almost always on internet you wouldn't have built all

587
00:35:41,035 --> 00:35:46,935
these features that actually benefit everybody so that's that's that's those are the those are

588
00:35:46,935 --> 00:35:51,555
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592
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593
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611
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today. That is anchorwatch.com. It's funny because I've never really thought about that challenge in

612
00:37:50,755 --> 00:37:55,635
app development. So the thing that came to mind is my probably favorite Lightning wallet, the one

613
00:37:55,635 --> 00:37:59,755
that I use all the time is Phoenix, but that's useless to people in the global South who don't

614
00:37:59,755 --> 00:38:02,595
have enough money. Because the first thing you have to do is lock money up for liquidity.

615
00:38:03,155 --> 00:38:07,195
That instantly, not interesting to the people. And again, when you say the global South,

616
00:38:07,495 --> 00:38:16,595
we're making a broad. There's a middle class, there's a working class, and there's an upper

617
00:38:16,595 --> 00:38:21,475
class in all countries. Even in America, it says that it doesn't have a class system.

618
00:38:21,475 --> 00:38:22,035
Oh, definitely.

619
00:38:22,035 --> 00:38:26,435
There's still a class system. It becomes college, which college you went to or who you worked for

620
00:38:26,435 --> 00:38:32,755
and so on, but it's an alternative. But so this is the case. The issue is just the percentages.

621
00:38:33,715 --> 00:38:42,355
Whereas, and so in some like Africa, the wealthy class would by Western standards be

622
00:38:42,355 --> 00:38:45,075
be considered incredibly wealthy.

623
00:38:45,075 --> 00:38:50,915
They have servants, and they have drivers, and multiple cars, and redundant power supplies,

624
00:38:50,915 --> 00:38:54,935
and a lot of things that the average wealthy person in the West would not have.

625
00:38:55,975 --> 00:39:04,395
And so when we're talking about this, we're talking about the people in the lower middle

626
00:39:04,395 --> 00:39:07,915
class to the working class area.

627
00:39:08,135 --> 00:39:09,515
And it's just a larger percentage.

628
00:39:09,515 --> 00:39:13,835
But the same problem will exist in the United States as well, but just for a smaller percentage.

629
00:39:14,235 --> 00:39:18,315
So we're more talking globally, but for the people who are disempowered.

630
00:39:18,955 --> 00:39:19,755
Yes, totally.

631
00:39:20,315 --> 00:39:24,715
So when it comes to Bitcoin in this kind of store of value phase,

632
00:39:24,715 --> 00:39:29,755
if it doesn't manage to get to be a real usable medium exchange,

633
00:39:29,755 --> 00:39:32,875
do you see that as failure for Bitcoin, as freedom money?

634
00:39:32,875 --> 00:39:46,135
So I think that, yes, it would be. And it would be failure in the long run. It will seem like

635
00:39:46,135 --> 00:39:49,995
it's not failure. And it can seem like it's not failure for a long period of time.

636
00:39:49,995 --> 00:39:53,035
Because people who have Bitcoin are getting rich while it's still not being full of money.

637
00:39:53,035 --> 00:39:54,975
But they don't realize what they are giving up.

638
00:39:54,975 --> 00:39:55,235
Yeah.

639
00:39:56,375 --> 00:40:04,095
If you give up the ability to transact privately,

640
00:40:04,855 --> 00:40:10,015
then effectively, Bitcoin goes from being

641
00:40:10,015 --> 00:40:14,435
one of the most empowering freedom technologies in the world

642
00:40:14,435 --> 00:40:17,955
to being actually a tool for mass surveillance

643
00:40:17,955 --> 00:40:20,635
on a level that we have never seen.

644
00:40:20,635 --> 00:40:20,895
Yeah.

645
00:40:20,895 --> 00:40:24,935
And in fact, it would actually be worse than the current state of affairs.

646
00:40:25,015 --> 00:40:26,915
Current state of affairs, you still have cash,

647
00:40:27,455 --> 00:40:28,895
and governments are trying to get rid of cash,

648
00:40:29,535 --> 00:40:31,895
but you still have cash to some degree.

649
00:40:32,995 --> 00:40:35,035
You have disjointed systems, et cetera.

650
00:40:35,775 --> 00:40:37,755
It's not great, but it is the current system.

651
00:40:38,255 --> 00:40:41,195
Bitcoin has the option for being free to money,

652
00:40:41,335 --> 00:40:44,815
where you have a scenario where you are able to transact privately.

653
00:40:45,415 --> 00:40:46,135
You may not want to.

654
00:40:46,175 --> 00:40:47,915
You may want to hold it, but you have that ability.

655
00:40:47,915 --> 00:40:56,075
if that goes and every transaction is surveilled and tracked then literally that is uh panopticon

656
00:40:56,075 --> 00:41:02,235
yeah um and you're just australian almost you will know a bit of history lesson there was um

657
00:41:02,235 --> 00:41:07,955
in london there's a place called millbank and um it's it's right next to the house of parliament

658
00:41:07,955 --> 00:41:14,795
um and it's famous because it's got these very yellow these very red bricks sorry those bricks

659
00:41:14,795 --> 00:41:21,995
were all built from a prison and it was knocked down and the bricks were used to make the Milbank

660
00:41:21,995 --> 00:41:26,075
estate afterwards, or many of the bricks were, and that's why it's got its unique color.

661
00:41:26,075 --> 00:41:33,675
But the Milbank estate was actually, I think it was Bentham who made it. It was the world's first

662
00:41:33,675 --> 00:41:42,155
panopticon. It's a prison where all of the prisoners can be seen from a central point,

663
00:41:42,155 --> 00:41:44,535
and they could see every single person.

664
00:41:45,455 --> 00:41:47,995
So if you live in Milbank, you're living in what was proven.

665
00:41:47,995 --> 00:41:48,715
You're already in the Panopticon.

666
00:41:48,775 --> 00:41:49,715
The prisoners of Milbank.

667
00:41:49,715 --> 00:41:57,595
And then off from the River Thames, you have this mooring point for the ships that would

668
00:41:57,595 --> 00:41:59,895
take people to the New World, to Australia from there.

669
00:42:00,075 --> 00:42:04,175
So that would be the, wherever you were, you know, you're ne'er-do-well, you know, good

670
00:42:04,175 --> 00:42:08,655
for nothing, you would, from around, well, that's defined by the state, from around the

671
00:42:08,655 --> 00:42:14,735
United Kingdom, you would be sent to Milbank as your last port of call. And then the prisons of

672
00:42:14,735 --> 00:42:22,055
Milgang would be sent to the long multi-week, multi-month journey to Australia. By the time

673
00:42:22,055 --> 00:42:28,075
they get to Australia, they've got scurvy, they're really depressed, they're whining, complaining.

674
00:42:28,075 --> 00:42:35,935
And so people see these people arrive and he goes, here come those new whinging prisons of Milbank.

675
00:42:35,935 --> 00:42:40,275
prisons of Milbanks is POMS. I did not know it was Milbanks. I thought it was Her Majesty. I

676
00:42:40,275 --> 00:42:42,695
thought it was like Prisoners of Her Majesty. I didn't know it was Prisoners of Milbank.

677
00:42:43,815 --> 00:42:47,115
There's a history lesson. I did not know that. Well, anyway, it could be Prisoners of

678
00:42:47,115 --> 00:42:51,275
Majesty, but I think it's Prisoners of Milbank. That was the one I used to live in the Milbank

679
00:42:51,275 --> 00:42:59,075
estate. Yeah, right. Yeah. So getting back to like the, so you were talking there about this

680
00:42:59,075 --> 00:43:04,195
like potential Panopticon and like, I understand what you're saying with Bitcoin. The other

681
00:43:04,195 --> 00:43:09,035
potential Panopticon that we go into is like this CBDC world. And I know they tried that in

682
00:43:09,035 --> 00:43:13,115
Nigeria. Maybe you can fill me in on what actually happened there. Because I think there was a lot

683
00:43:13,115 --> 00:43:18,755
of pushback, right? I think there's been, I mean, there was a lot of pushback. There were

684
00:43:18,755 --> 00:43:24,375
demonstrations. People were, and it was also related to demonstrations around police brutality.

685
00:43:24,375 --> 00:43:30,135
They were closely aligned things, but it was a tried. Adoption for it has been basically

686
00:43:30,135 --> 00:43:37,015
non-existent and we've seen it around the world so um but i think the mistake people make is they

687
00:43:37,015 --> 00:43:43,815
think that um governments will just try once and stop and goes okay well it's a fair cop let's stop

688
00:43:43,815 --> 00:43:51,815
no they'll just try more subtle words yeah they will go and say well let's um just people are for

689
00:43:51,815 --> 00:43:57,175
some reason psychologically do not like cbcs but they're comfortable with stable coins so

690
00:43:57,175 --> 00:44:03,875
So let's just let them use stable coins and make sure that we're regulating the stable

691
00:44:03,875 --> 00:44:07,455
coins to the same level that we would regulate CBDCs.

692
00:44:07,455 --> 00:44:10,655
And that works for a period of time.

693
00:44:10,655 --> 00:44:12,535
That might work for a very long period of time.

694
00:44:12,535 --> 00:44:16,175
But if that does, then again, you're now living in a panopticon.

695
00:44:16,175 --> 00:44:18,815
You do not have monetary freedom.

696
00:44:18,815 --> 00:44:22,135
And we're also doing a similar thing with AI.

697
00:44:22,135 --> 00:44:25,415
We are giving the level of information that we're sharing with AI.

698
00:44:25,415 --> 00:44:26,415
This scares me.

699
00:44:26,415 --> 00:44:30,335
Yeah, but it's the same with what you spend and what you think.

700
00:44:31,695 --> 00:44:35,575
Both technologies are examples of technologies that can be freedom technologies.

701
00:44:35,835 --> 00:44:39,415
Because you can have the ability to have everybody to have super intelligence

702
00:44:39,415 --> 00:44:43,295
in their pockets or on their face with glasses in future,

703
00:44:43,915 --> 00:44:49,035
leveling everybody up everywhere so that they take the best actions

704
00:44:49,035 --> 00:44:50,755
for their health, their family, their education.

705
00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:53,175
It could be an incredibly freeing technology.

706
00:44:53,175 --> 00:44:58,375
having the ability to freely hold and transact privately money,

707
00:44:58,695 --> 00:45:02,815
and money that's hard money that doesn't inflate,

708
00:45:03,395 --> 00:45:05,755
again, is incredibly powerful.

709
00:45:06,075 --> 00:45:09,075
But if you lose privacy on either of those,

710
00:45:10,095 --> 00:45:13,555
that's the difference between it being this tool for mass oppression

711
00:45:13,555 --> 00:45:17,915
and disempowerment or a tool for empowerment.

712
00:45:17,915 --> 00:45:20,795
And it will be very much like,

713
00:45:20,795 --> 00:45:23,435
because these organizations think in decades.

714
00:45:23,635 --> 00:45:25,735
It will be like the boiling of the frog.

715
00:45:25,855 --> 00:45:26,935
You put the frog in the water,

716
00:45:27,115 --> 00:45:28,175
and it will be a slow process,

717
00:45:28,295 --> 00:45:30,475
and it will seem fine until it's too late.

718
00:45:31,915 --> 00:45:34,135
And this is how people accept regimes

719
00:45:34,135 --> 00:45:36,975
that end up becoming incredibly oppressive.

720
00:45:37,255 --> 00:45:39,655
They happen a little bit, a little bit, a little bit,

721
00:45:39,655 --> 00:45:43,135
and every single small step seems small,

722
00:45:43,275 --> 00:45:46,735
and it's accepted until you have no choice,

723
00:45:46,735 --> 00:45:54,935
and you realize that you were part of the problem by not stopping it at every step.

724
00:45:55,075 --> 00:45:55,555
It's gradual.

725
00:45:55,755 --> 00:46:03,175
So I think we will eventually, if we, and again, there might be an ability for subgroups of people

726
00:46:03,175 --> 00:46:08,615
to maintain freedom because they, and it might be that it could be a subset of people around the

727
00:46:08,615 --> 00:46:13,715
world choose to go this sort of Bitcoin path and use it as a medium of exchange and make sure

728
00:46:13,715 --> 00:46:26,090
they are able to transact privately and they effectively have this Noah Ark scenario Um and they be living amongst the other people who don have that same level of freedom

729
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:28,190
But what I hope is that that group

730
00:46:28,290 --> 00:46:31,230
is as big as it possibly can be.

731
00:46:31,330 --> 00:46:35,130
Because you're really literally talking about

732
00:46:35,230 --> 00:46:36,630
the difference between night and day here

733
00:46:36,730 --> 00:46:38,610
between freedom and oppression.

734
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:40,250
If you had to put, like, a probability

735
00:46:40,350 --> 00:46:41,550
on which path we actually go down,

736
00:46:41,650 --> 00:46:43,150
whether it's oppression or freedom,

737
00:46:43,150 --> 00:46:45,110
Where do you think we're falling at the moment?

738
00:46:45,110 --> 00:46:46,150
100% of both.

739
00:46:46,890 --> 00:46:49,450
So it'll just be people who can live their free life

740
00:46:49,450 --> 00:46:50,570
amongst the oppressed.

741
00:46:50,570 --> 00:46:53,970
Yeah, because, I mean, now you've got people

742
00:46:53,970 --> 00:46:56,010
like Balaji giving it names and labels

743
00:46:56,010 --> 00:46:57,770
like network states and so on.

744
00:46:57,990 --> 00:47:01,250
But I just think it's common sense that right now

745
00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:02,970
we have our communities and tribes.

746
00:47:03,730 --> 00:47:06,970
And more and more because of the internet,

747
00:47:07,450 --> 00:47:11,250
the tribes are not, the change now from the past

748
00:47:11,250 --> 00:47:12,710
is not that the tribes stop existing.

749
00:47:13,150 --> 00:47:15,310
but they've stopped becoming geographic in nature.

750
00:47:15,790 --> 00:47:17,830
And they're more philosophical in nature.

751
00:47:17,830 --> 00:47:21,630
So we're both part of the-

752
00:47:21,630 --> 00:47:23,870
The Bitcoin call?

753
00:47:23,870 --> 00:47:27,230
Well, we're part of the privileged set of Bitcoin, even with Bitcoin.

754
00:47:27,230 --> 00:47:29,710
The privileged set of Bitcoin is who are able to travel freely.

755
00:47:29,950 --> 00:47:31,150
And I've experienced that now.

756
00:47:31,150 --> 00:47:34,910
My wife's passport is Kenyan, and it's just incredibly difficult

757
00:47:34,910 --> 00:47:38,030
and expensive now to travel, whereas before it was without a thought.

758
00:47:38,750 --> 00:47:42,110
But as such, I'm able to experience Bitcoin communities from around the world.

759
00:47:42,110 --> 00:47:45,530
and cultures are very different,

760
00:47:45,730 --> 00:47:48,570
but we have this instant connection

761
00:47:48,570 --> 00:47:52,070
because we have a similar philosophy around,

762
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:53,650
and it goes beyond money.

763
00:47:54,130 --> 00:47:56,190
And so I would say that we're part of the same community.

764
00:47:56,190 --> 00:47:58,770
Even if I've never met the person before,

765
00:47:58,830 --> 00:48:03,070
I can immediately find things to talk about and compare.

766
00:48:03,230 --> 00:48:04,870
I probably have more in common

767
00:48:04,870 --> 00:48:06,950
with a random Bitcoin in Argentina than I do my neighbor.

768
00:48:07,330 --> 00:48:09,590
Yeah, and it will be the same for footballers,

769
00:48:09,890 --> 00:48:10,650
for a billion interested football,

770
00:48:10,650 --> 00:48:14,370
or people who are into pottery or whatever it may be, or anime.

771
00:48:14,490 --> 00:48:15,290
I'm a big fan of anime.

772
00:48:15,690 --> 00:48:19,590
Again, I went to an anime expo.

773
00:48:19,790 --> 00:48:20,350
I know, of course.

774
00:48:20,570 --> 00:48:21,530
We did the whole thing.

775
00:48:22,130 --> 00:48:23,350
The whole cosplay thing.

776
00:48:23,450 --> 00:48:24,150
It was a lot of fun.

777
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:24,610
I love it.

778
00:48:24,730 --> 00:48:26,370
But in Japan.

779
00:48:26,770 --> 00:48:29,430
But again, a lot of people couldn't even speak.

780
00:48:29,690 --> 00:48:30,330
Well, not couldn't even.

781
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:30,830
They were in Japan.

782
00:48:30,970 --> 00:48:32,210
Of course, I shouldn't expect to speak English.

783
00:48:32,450 --> 00:48:33,490
But they couldn't speak English.

784
00:48:33,970 --> 00:48:34,430
And I couldn't.

785
00:48:34,550 --> 00:48:37,050
My Japanese is very rusty, non-existent.

786
00:48:38,310 --> 00:48:40,070
But we had a lot of connection.

787
00:48:40,070 --> 00:48:42,470
There was the guy in the taxi driving us over,

788
00:48:42,530 --> 00:48:47,370
and we were just saying names of anime periodicals

789
00:48:47,450 --> 00:48:48,310
that we read.

790
00:48:48,370 --> 00:48:51,650
And that was all he's, he couldn't say much more in English.

791
00:48:51,710 --> 00:48:54,150
But we still could share good, good, bad, bad,

792
00:48:54,210 --> 00:48:55,310
and so on and so forth.

793
00:48:55,390 --> 00:48:57,290
So it's almost like the end of monoculture

794
00:48:57,350 --> 00:48:58,190
in a lot of ways.

795
00:48:58,250 --> 00:49:03,730
Yeah, it's this multifaceted set of cultures that are,

796
00:49:03,790 --> 00:49:07,390
and every time you join a different WhatsApp group

797
00:49:07,470 --> 00:49:10,070
or Telegram group or Signal group or Feddie,

798
00:49:10,070 --> 00:49:14,030
community, you're part of a different non-geographically

799
00:49:14,030 --> 00:49:17,090
bound, but philosophically bound community.

800
00:49:17,090 --> 00:49:21,250
And some of those communities will have philosophies

801
00:49:21,250 --> 00:49:27,410
around healthy living, around low time preference,

802
00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:31,910
around the need to have the importance of privacy.

803
00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:33,410
And they will exist.

804
00:49:33,410 --> 00:49:34,610
It's a guarantee.

805
00:49:34,610 --> 00:49:40,050
The question is, is that are those communities in total 1%

806
00:49:40,050 --> 00:49:45,810
the population of the planet or 99 of the population of the planet and and that's the

807
00:49:45,810 --> 00:49:52,690
question and and i think at this point so if you ask that question um i think at the moment the

808
00:49:52,690 --> 00:50:02,610
majority of the planet will will be um in the disempowered without realizing it um um oppressed

809
00:50:02,610 --> 00:50:08,930
no privacy um part of the world and and i find myself as well without realizing it and i'm someone

810
00:50:08,930 --> 00:50:16,690
who's very focused on trying to lead a private life to the extent that I can. And I'm openly

811
00:50:16,690 --> 00:50:19,110
using things like Gemini and ChatGPT.

812
00:50:19,210 --> 00:50:19,930
I do the same thing.

813
00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:23,970
Giving very sensitive information away. And I think, well, but for me, if someone made

814
00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:31,450
a tool that was in the same order of magnitude as useful, I would switch. What other percentage

815
00:50:31,450 --> 00:50:36,430
of people would switch for that? That's the question right now. I think maybe 5%, 10% would.

816
00:50:36,430 --> 00:50:39,430
I'm hoping we can get that to 30, 40, 50, 60%.

817
00:50:40,030 --> 00:50:41,410
And I think you're right there.

818
00:50:41,570 --> 00:50:44,230
The tools just need to be as good or close to as good

819
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:46,110
as the chat GPTs of the world.

820
00:50:46,570 --> 00:50:52,450
For the 5% to 10% who understand the importance

821
00:50:52,450 --> 00:50:55,510
of maintaining privacy

822
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:58,470
or having the ability to have a private life.

823
00:50:58,670 --> 00:51:01,570
I do think that is showing potential of getting better.

824
00:51:01,690 --> 00:51:04,510
I think the stuff that Open Secrets are doing with Maple AI,

825
00:51:04,770 --> 00:51:05,470
that's very cool.

826
00:51:05,470 --> 00:51:08,410
and Proton have just released their private AI.

827
00:51:08,510 --> 00:51:09,230
I don't know if you've seen that.

828
00:51:09,290 --> 00:51:10,170
I started playing around with it.

829
00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:11,250
I only saw it yesterday,

830
00:51:11,450 --> 00:51:13,870
but hopefully there's signs of improvement there.

831
00:51:14,070 --> 00:51:14,770
No, yeah, yeah.

832
00:51:15,010 --> 00:51:15,650
There's improvement.

833
00:51:15,790 --> 00:51:16,590
But again, as I said,

834
00:51:16,870 --> 00:51:19,070
it's only going to affect the people who-

835
00:51:19,070 --> 00:51:19,690
Who care enough.

836
00:51:19,770 --> 00:51:20,550
Who care enough.

837
00:51:20,550 --> 00:51:25,190
And caring more comes from culture.

838
00:51:25,570 --> 00:51:28,930
And culture is passed along through community.

839
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:32,170
So again, we saw this in Japan.

840
00:51:32,170 --> 00:51:39,470
and kids there hardly ever act up, are very polite, very quiet.

841
00:51:40,350 --> 00:51:43,130
When they finish, they clean up their table after them.

842
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:46,330
And then you go next door to China, to Hong Kong,

843
00:51:46,410 --> 00:51:48,930
and kids are like shouting and screaming and so on.

844
00:51:49,590 --> 00:51:53,570
And again, these are generalizations, but it's differences in culture.

845
00:51:53,570 --> 00:51:58,110
And so if there's a culture, and this is where education is actually,

846
00:51:58,110 --> 00:52:04,150
greater and greater understanding of why the importance ultimately to get that from 10% to

847
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:11,330
60, 70% are thousands, hundreds of thousands of educators around the world by their own actions

848
00:52:11,330 --> 00:52:17,790
demonstrating what happens if you take an attitude of trying to look after your body,

849
00:52:17,790 --> 00:52:24,390
trying to look after your mind, trying to question information and don't blindly follow it,

850
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:27,050
trying to take a low time preference to things

851
00:52:27,050 --> 00:52:28,250
and not try to rush.

852
00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:30,090
We have to make a million tomorrow,

853
00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:36,570
but, and rush out poor quality altcoin-like software,

854
00:52:36,810 --> 00:52:39,150
but try to maintain the low time preference

855
00:52:39,150 --> 00:52:40,510
step-by-step approach.

856
00:52:41,470 --> 00:52:44,030
The more we have maintained that,

857
00:52:44,410 --> 00:52:46,370
then the people that will see us

858
00:52:46,370 --> 00:52:48,210
will start to ape that behavior.

859
00:52:48,570 --> 00:52:50,730
Kids ape the behavior of their parents.

860
00:52:50,810 --> 00:52:51,910
If their parents are low time preference,

861
00:52:52,010 --> 00:52:53,190
then their kids are gonna be low time preference.

862
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:58,450
and that's a hiding towards disaster.

863
00:52:58,770 --> 00:53:00,010
That's one of the things I'm very bullish on.

864
00:53:00,130 --> 00:53:03,450
Bitcoiners love to see other Bitcoiners having kids.

865
00:53:03,630 --> 00:53:06,350
I think the next generation of Bitcoiners is going to be strong.

866
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:09,270
But I agree, we need to lean into and push the Bitcoin culture

867
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:10,450
as much as we possibly can.

868
00:53:11,230 --> 00:53:14,310
We should talk about Feddy because we've barely spoken about it yet.

869
00:53:14,370 --> 00:53:17,050
It's come up a couple of times, but it's been, I don't know,

870
00:53:17,150 --> 00:53:20,170
two, three years since you were on the show when we did the demonstration.

871
00:53:20,510 --> 00:53:22,190
There'll be people who didn't listen to that show

872
00:53:22,190 --> 00:53:23,550
who have come along since then.

873
00:53:23,810 --> 00:53:25,470
Do you want to just start by giving an explanation

874
00:53:25,470 --> 00:53:27,270
of what Feddy and Feddy Mint are?

875
00:53:27,710 --> 00:53:27,850
Yeah.

876
00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:33,170
So let's start with Feddy,

877
00:53:33,310 --> 00:53:34,590
because actually there are two separate things.

878
00:53:34,670 --> 00:53:37,190
The names are very similar, but they're very separate.

879
00:53:37,790 --> 00:53:41,710
So Feddy is both a company, a company called Feddy,

880
00:53:42,130 --> 00:53:43,790
and it's a technology.

881
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:44,390
It's an app.

882
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:45,750
You should think about this.

883
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:47,130
It's like this super wallet.

884
00:53:47,130 --> 00:53:52,510
So it's chat, money, and more.

885
00:53:52,590 --> 00:53:54,710
We call them mini apps all in one place.

886
00:53:55,330 --> 00:54:01,650
So from one app, I can, not directly from the app, but using these mini apps, I can augment

887
00:54:01,650 --> 00:54:08,870
the capability of the app to be able to accept payments or act like a point of sale or ask

888
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:15,470
an AI questions or whatever I may want to do, all powered by Bitcoin and eCash.

889
00:54:15,950 --> 00:54:18,310
The second thing I can do in the most core is it's a wallet.

890
00:54:18,490 --> 00:54:21,910
So I can hold money and value with it.

891
00:54:22,250 --> 00:54:23,110
I can spend.

892
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:25,250
I can see my balance.

893
00:54:25,250 --> 00:54:32,350
And I can hold value both in Bitcoin and I can have Bitcoin back to USD as well.

894
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:35,190
So it can be Bitcoin and USD, but it's still behind the scenes.

895
00:54:35,370 --> 00:54:36,350
It's all Bitcoin.

896
00:54:36,750 --> 00:54:37,450
How do you do that, by the way?

897
00:54:37,470 --> 00:54:39,110
Is that like Stable Channels or something that you're doing?

898
00:54:39,330 --> 00:54:40,650
It's like Stable Channels.

899
00:54:41,310 --> 00:54:43,310
We built it before Stable Channels.

900
00:54:43,310 --> 00:54:49,230
has been around for the first version of it was two and a half years ago. And so we had two and

901
00:54:49,230 --> 00:54:56,430
a half years worth of development of that. But effectively, it does something like stable channels.

902
00:54:56,430 --> 00:54:58,670
RAOUL PAL, It's just a market maker taking the other side of the trade, essentially.

903
00:54:58,670 --> 00:55:03,150
ALEX SMYTH, Exactly. We have people who want the value of their Bitcoin stabilized USD,

904
00:55:03,150 --> 00:55:07,790
called them stability seekers. They want the price to be stable to something that they want,

905
00:55:07,790 --> 00:55:12,270
something like USD. And then you have stability providers who provide additional Bitcoin

906
00:55:12,270 --> 00:55:18,830
to effectively cover the scenario where the value of Bitcoin goes down to a certain extent.

907
00:55:19,870 --> 00:55:24,750
The default is 50%. So as long as Bitcoin's price doesn't go down 50% in 10 minutes,

908
00:55:24,750 --> 00:55:29,710
which is unlikely, then you're covered. RAOUL PAL, But they then take the upside.

909
00:55:29,710 --> 00:55:33,310
ALEX SMYTHERNINI, But if it goes up, they take the upside. And historically, over the last

910
00:55:33,310 --> 00:55:37,470
year or so of running it, they've taken upside. But the other people have got what they wanted.

911
00:55:37,470 --> 00:55:49,910
If I don't have disposable income and I receive some aid from an aid agency and I've received

912
00:55:49,910 --> 00:55:54,110
$20 worth of Bitcoin, I don't want that $20 to become $16.

913
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:58,990
It'd be nice if it's $24, but I'm more concerned about the downside because I need $20 to live.

914
00:55:59,370 --> 00:56:02,650
So what I would do is I would stabilize it to $20 and I now have $20.

915
00:56:02,650 --> 00:56:08,470
dollars. Eight times out of 10 over the last year, that meant that the people who've done the other

916
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:13,350
side, they're up. But if it's gone down, they lose. And they're more sophisticated on the other

917
00:56:13,350 --> 00:56:17,670
side. They can hedge that risk and so on. They could do lots of things. But fundamentally, from

918
00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:21,730
a user's point of view, I see a Bitcoin balance. I see a USD balance. And I can switch between the

919
00:56:21,730 --> 00:56:26,870
two. But I'm not actually using any stable coin in the background. I'm not actually using any

920
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:33,770
any bank I'm still just using is backed by Bitcoin that's held on the Bitcoin network.

921
00:56:34,490 --> 00:56:40,190
So we do that and it's all in a simple package. And then finally, we have chat as well, because

922
00:56:40,190 --> 00:56:46,330
we very, very early on discovered that integrating money with communication, it works really,

923
00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:52,130
really well. So from within chat, you initially, you could have conversations and you could also

924
00:56:52,130 --> 00:56:59,710
send money. You could send eCash. You could instant message money, effectively. But since then,

925
00:56:59,770 --> 00:57:05,690
we've added more and more to that. So now, within chat, you have all the features that we have,

926
00:57:05,870 --> 00:57:10,310
well, not all, but many of the features now you expect from a modern-day chat app. So you can set

927
00:57:10,310 --> 00:57:16,110
up groups and subgroups. You can do replies to people. You can add attachments and videos and

928
00:57:16,110 --> 00:57:23,670
documents because people want to be able to do this. But we can also now do two big new things.

929
00:57:23,870 --> 00:57:30,550
We can set up what we call multi-spend groups. So if in chat, you can just take a group that you've

930
00:57:30,550 --> 00:57:36,910
set up in chat, but you can convert that into a multi-spend group. So everybody in that chat

931
00:57:36,910 --> 00:57:42,950
is able to deposit to the money, to the conversation, to the thread. And it's now

932
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:47,830
collectively owned by that chat group and then a subset of people let's think of it like almost

933
00:57:47,830 --> 00:57:52,070
like the administrators we have the concept of a group administrator like in any other instant

934
00:57:52,070 --> 00:57:58,070
message we also have a concept of a of a group voter and if you're if you're identified as a voter

935
00:57:58,070 --> 00:58:03,510
then you are able to vote on the the expenditure of any of the money that was sent to that group

936
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:09,110
that's cool yeah and so um and it can be up to 21 voters and you can set the ratio it might be one

937
00:58:09,110 --> 00:58:15,290
of any one of the 21 or 15 of the 21 or three of nine or two or three or whatever.

938
00:58:15,530 --> 00:58:15,650
Yeah.

939
00:58:15,830 --> 00:58:19,950
And any, so you set up five, 10 different groups and one could be called

940
00:58:19,950 --> 00:58:27,530
picnic and budget and, or another group could be college tuition or whatever.

941
00:58:27,870 --> 00:58:28,670
Lads weekend away.

942
00:58:28,830 --> 00:58:29,710
Lads weekend away.

943
00:58:29,710 --> 00:58:33,330
And then people and all the people who are going get added to that group.

944
00:58:33,950 --> 00:58:38,050
And maybe two or three of the responsible people who don't get drunk from the lads

945
00:58:38,050 --> 00:58:40,890
become the voters and you make it a two or three.

946
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:43,230
And then people just send their money.

947
00:58:43,330 --> 00:58:45,130
And in the conversation, you could be chatting,

948
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:47,010
but you also can be seeing messages,

949
00:58:47,170 --> 00:58:49,890
system messages saying this person has now added this much in

950
00:58:49,890 --> 00:58:51,990
and you can vote and expend on that.

951
00:58:52,190 --> 00:58:54,530
So that's multi-spend, but it's all a chat conversation

952
00:58:54,530 --> 00:58:56,770
because we're seeing that UX is becoming really intuitive.

953
00:58:57,110 --> 00:59:00,670
And then the last one as well is,

954
00:59:01,570 --> 00:59:03,690
and I think this is where it comes on to Fediment,

955
00:59:03,690 --> 00:59:09,370
into something we call federation setup service.

956
00:59:10,570 --> 00:59:13,630
And that is a service to make it incredibly easy.

957
00:59:13,730 --> 00:59:16,750
It's just a chat conversation to set up a full federation.

958
00:59:16,910 --> 00:59:17,650
Oh, that's cool.

959
00:59:17,730 --> 00:59:18,750
And that's the big one.

960
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:23,290
So we're making it, and you talk to what we call the G-Bot,

961
00:59:23,610 --> 00:59:25,170
which is the Guardian Bot.

962
00:59:25,590 --> 00:59:28,630
And it's this AI that you talk to and you just say,

963
00:59:28,730 --> 00:59:29,590
I want to set up a federation.

964
00:59:29,870 --> 00:59:30,390
Here are the terms.

965
00:59:30,450 --> 00:59:30,870
You agree.

966
00:59:30,870 --> 00:59:37,370
and it will locate that that will have to have a whole conversation because that's a real big

967
00:59:37,370 --> 00:59:43,710
feature and that's part of what i told the second thing that we're working on which is to make it

968
00:59:43,710 --> 00:59:49,050
incredibly easy for people to set up and run federations so that we see this future where

969
00:59:49,050 --> 00:59:56,430
there are thousands of thousands of federations or or each one are our private custodian private

970
00:59:56,430 --> 00:59:57,810
custody services, effectively.

971
00:59:58,170 --> 00:59:59,910
Because we don't want five or six or 10.

972
00:59:59,990 --> 01:00:02,050
We have maybe 50, 60, 100 right now.

973
01:00:02,170 --> 01:00:03,690
But we want there to be 100,000.

974
01:00:03,950 --> 01:00:08,950
And for that to be happening, it has to be something that people can do while they're

975
01:00:08,950 --> 01:00:11,070
just walking to their car.

976
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:16,190
It should be very, very easy to set up and very robust and work reliably.

977
01:00:16,310 --> 01:00:17,350
And that's something we've worked on.

978
01:00:17,550 --> 01:00:18,170
That's really cool.

979
01:00:18,170 --> 01:00:18,590
That's FEDI.

980
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:22,190
Because when you were on the show previously, we went through how you set up a federation.

981
01:00:22,370 --> 01:00:22,490
Yeah.

982
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:26,350
And it was nowhere near as intuitive as that, as just being able to have a chat.

983
01:00:26,350 --> 01:00:28,730
I definitely want to show you how that's coming up.

984
01:00:28,730 --> 01:00:29,270
Should we have a look?

985
01:00:29,370 --> 01:00:29,670
I want to see.

986
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:29,830
Yeah.

987
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:33,750
And just quickly before I do that, you asked about Fediment.

988
01:00:34,010 --> 01:00:34,230
Yeah.

989
01:00:34,270 --> 01:00:34,490
Oh, yeah.

990
01:00:34,510 --> 01:00:34,970
Let's do that.

991
01:00:35,390 --> 01:00:43,610
So Fediment, for the money side of things, we use a protocol called Fediment.

992
01:00:43,730 --> 01:00:47,790
It was invented by my co-founder five years ago now.

993
01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:55,570
And it is the most robust e-cash custodial mechanism.

994
01:00:56,530 --> 01:01:06,210
It allows you to hold value, spend and transact. But the key thing is no single person is in charge

995
01:01:06,210 --> 01:01:13,970
of the money held in it. And so it means that this is technically, we say that means it's

996
01:01:13,970 --> 01:01:18,930
federated. You think like multi-sig is if you have a multi-sig custody of Bitcoin,

997
01:01:18,930 --> 01:01:24,690
that's federated as well. But that's what it allows you to do. And then when you all the money

998
01:01:24,690 --> 01:01:33,650
that's added in to the system or sent to the Fediment Federation causes the issuance of eCash,

999
01:01:33,650 --> 01:01:39,170
which is sent back to the person who issued, who provided the Bitcoin. And that eCash can be

1000
01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:46,050
transacted in lieu of the Bitcoin. But the transactions with eCash have incredible levels

1001
01:01:46,050 --> 01:01:52,610
of privacy. And when you want to withdraw, you don't have to rely on one person to respond.

1002
01:01:52,610 --> 01:01:55,370
is a federation of people will respond as well.

1003
01:01:55,830 --> 01:01:57,810
So behind the scenes with Fedi,

1004
01:01:57,950 --> 01:02:01,770
all of the different federations that are set up

1005
01:02:01,770 --> 01:02:06,550
are all running these federated Fedimint services.

1006
01:02:07,490 --> 01:02:08,870
But from a user's point of view,

1007
01:02:09,010 --> 01:02:10,830
they just look like a wallet.

1008
01:02:11,350 --> 01:02:12,350
And you can be a member of one,

1009
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:13,190
you can be a member of two,

1010
01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:14,630
you can be a member of 20.

1011
01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:16,330
So when, like, obviously,

1012
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:19,450
the other eCash protocol that's gained some traction,

1013
01:02:19,590 --> 01:02:21,050
Cashew, did a show with Kali recently.

1014
01:02:21,210 --> 01:02:21,610
He's great.

1015
01:02:21,610 --> 01:02:23,210
And I think these are both amazing products.

1016
01:02:23,370 --> 01:02:26,330
There's trade-offs to each, and they're both going to exist.

1017
01:02:26,970 --> 01:02:30,170
But with Cashew, there's obviously just one person in charge of the Mint.

1018
01:02:30,750 --> 01:02:34,930
So the risk there is that that person who's running the Mint rugs everyone and takes the Bitcoin.

1019
01:02:34,990 --> 01:02:36,070
Yeah, that's the small risk.

1020
01:02:36,390 --> 01:02:38,050
I mean, that's the small risk.

1021
01:02:38,510 --> 01:02:45,170
Lots of people in Bitcoin focus on that, but that's not the real risk of any one of these services,

1022
01:02:45,470 --> 01:02:49,010
ARK or Spark or Cashew or Liquid.

1023
01:02:49,010 --> 01:02:56,690
The big risk is that the person messes up and loses their keys

1024
01:02:56,690 --> 01:02:59,490
or their machine blows up.

1025
01:02:59,650 --> 01:03:00,650
They don't have a proper backup.

1026
01:03:01,290 --> 01:03:03,750
If you think about it, how often do people forget their password

1027
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:08,490
versus how often do they get hacked by the North Korean hacker?

1028
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:11,210
It's a thousand times more likely.

1029
01:03:11,790 --> 01:03:12,830
And we've even seen it.

1030
01:03:12,910 --> 01:03:14,850
And we worked with communities around the world.

1031
01:03:15,250 --> 01:03:18,530
And we have guardians who are the most trusted people

1032
01:03:18,530 --> 01:03:26,850
community is the most reliable most technically capable and their federations um and still someone

1033
01:03:26,850 --> 01:03:30,690
after a few months forgets their password and they can't remember it and they can't remember

1034
01:03:30,690 --> 01:03:36,690
where they saw it and that happens for those luckily because it's a federation you can still

1035
01:03:37,250 --> 01:03:42,370
us the federation is impaired because it's not fully someone's machine is no longer working

1036
01:03:42,370 --> 01:03:48,290
but you can still withdraw but if it was only one you lose your money that is the 99 risk

1037
01:03:48,530 --> 01:03:50,110
that you should worry about that.

1038
01:03:50,770 --> 01:03:56,810
What is my protection against just mistakes?

1039
01:03:57,290 --> 01:03:59,030
Because mistakes are way more common,

1040
01:03:59,410 --> 01:04:00,650
which is why, for example,

1041
01:04:01,370 --> 01:04:05,450
I think it's another thing that we have to think about

1042
01:04:05,450 --> 01:04:07,230
as Bitcoiners, and we should come about this at the end,

1043
01:04:07,710 --> 01:04:11,350
is the insistence that we should try

1044
01:04:11,350 --> 01:04:12,570
to get everybody to self-custody.

1045
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:16,370
I think we're doing Bitcoin a disservice

1046
01:04:16,370 --> 01:04:17,550
by focusing on that.

1047
01:04:17,550 --> 01:04:18,550
Oh, that's spicy.

1048
01:04:18,550 --> 01:04:19,550
But we're coming around again.

1049
01:04:19,550 --> 01:04:21,550
I'm making a note because I definitely want to talk about that.

1050
01:04:21,550 --> 01:04:26,550
And that's just come from hard-earned experience for the last, I don't know, 14 years now in

1051
01:04:26,550 --> 01:04:27,550
this space.

1052
01:04:27,550 --> 01:04:29,550
Anyway, we'll come back to that.

1053
01:04:29,550 --> 01:04:31,550
Yeah, I'm definitely going to come back to that.

1054
01:04:31,550 --> 01:04:36,550
But you, like, so understand the risk there of cashew is that it's a single mint operator.

1055
01:04:36,550 --> 01:04:38,550
With Fetty Mint, there's multiple.

1056
01:04:38,550 --> 01:04:39,550
Yes.

1057
01:04:39,550 --> 01:04:43,550
So it protects you against the risk of someone being, just making a mistake.

1058
01:04:43,550 --> 01:04:44,550
Mistake proof.

1059
01:04:44,550 --> 01:04:49,510
But there's still, again, I agree that this is a small risk, but the risk is that there's

1060
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:52,430
collusion between the people running the federation and they run off with the Bitcoin.

1061
01:04:53,010 --> 01:04:53,170
Yeah.

1062
01:04:53,290 --> 01:05:01,590
And another thing about the service that we are just announcing now effectively, which

1063
01:05:01,590 --> 01:05:09,790
is the federation setup service, is that we think of a way to, I don't want to be hyperbolic,

1064
01:05:09,950 --> 01:05:11,950
but massively reduce that risk as well.

1065
01:05:12,250 --> 01:05:12,550
Okay.

1066
01:05:12,890 --> 01:05:13,530
That's interesting.

1067
01:05:13,530 --> 01:05:15,330
Can you talk about how you reduce that risk?

1068
01:05:15,330 --> 01:05:15,470
Yeah.

1069
01:05:19,470 --> 01:05:24,330
So what happens is to set up a federation, historically,

1070
01:05:24,570 --> 01:05:26,010
a number of people need to come together.

1071
01:05:26,170 --> 01:05:26,990
We call them guardians.

1072
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:31,450
And let's say you find four people.

1073
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:32,410
It could be seven.

1074
01:05:32,530 --> 01:05:33,010
It could be 10.

1075
01:05:33,090 --> 01:05:35,470
But let's just say it's four people.

1076
01:05:35,810 --> 01:05:41,010
They come together, and they decide, OK, we're going to set up a federation.

1077
01:05:41,490 --> 01:05:42,730
They then set up the federation.

1078
01:05:42,730 --> 01:05:44,870
They all download the Fedimint software.

1079
01:05:45,730 --> 01:05:46,770
It's downloaded.

1080
01:05:47,770 --> 01:05:48,970
Yeah, I'm just looking.

1081
01:05:49,670 --> 01:05:50,730
Sorry, it's about to sting you.

1082
01:05:50,750 --> 01:05:51,230
You're getting shoot by flies.

1083
01:05:51,310 --> 01:05:55,390
Yeah, it looked like a mosquito, but they all come together.

1084
01:05:56,410 --> 01:05:58,790
And they run the Fedimint software.

1085
01:05:59,230 --> 01:06:01,670
They enter each other's credentials.

1086
01:06:02,010 --> 01:06:04,230
They share them around in a chat conversation.

1087
01:06:04,810 --> 01:06:05,730
And it's not me.

1088
01:06:06,750 --> 01:06:11,390
And the Fedimint server coordinates, and the federation is set up.

1089
01:06:11,390 --> 01:06:14,870
And as long as their machines are running and connected

1090
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:16,830
to the internet, it continues to run.

1091
01:06:16,830 --> 01:06:20,090
If one goes offline or the person makes a mistake

1092
01:06:20,090 --> 01:06:23,290
or forgets their keys, which is the 99% risk,

1093
01:06:23,290 --> 01:06:26,870
just remember that, we're good.

1094
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:30,330
You can still use the system.

1095
01:06:30,330 --> 01:06:32,930
But for them to collude, they have to know each other

1096
01:06:32,930 --> 01:06:35,190
fundamentally, and they can collude.

1097
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:40,050
So with Fediment, because we have this system

1098
01:06:40,050 --> 01:06:47,050
where we have both money and chat all in one place.

1099
01:06:47,050 --> 01:06:51,170
We have the ability to allow people within chat,

1100
01:06:51,170 --> 01:06:52,490
and actually, and mods.

1101
01:06:52,490 --> 01:06:55,510
So you can have a mini app, which

1102
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:57,870
is the FeddMint Setup Service mini app.

1103
01:06:57,870 --> 01:07:00,150
You can say, I want to set up FeddMint.

1104
01:07:00,150 --> 01:07:02,970
You enter, you confirm that you want to set it up,

1105
01:07:02,970 --> 01:07:11,090
And you pass it your Freddie Mint identity,

1106
01:07:11,090 --> 01:07:15,850
which is actually a NOSTA NPUB.

1107
01:07:15,850 --> 01:07:20,310
We automatically create you a NOSTA identity for your ID.

1108
01:07:20,310 --> 01:07:22,970
And in fact, whenever you open a mini app,

1109
01:07:22,970 --> 01:07:25,230
we can automatically log you in by a NOSTA again

1110
01:07:25,230 --> 01:07:26,350
without you having to do anything.

1111
01:07:26,350 --> 01:07:28,110
So it'll know who you are.

1112
01:07:28,110 --> 01:07:31,250
And it will be able to start a conversation with you

1113
01:07:31,250 --> 01:07:34,410
in chat in the same app with Gbot.

1114
01:07:34,410 --> 01:07:37,130
Gbot will contact you saying, OK, we know that you want to set up.

1115
01:07:37,130 --> 01:07:39,330
Let's start the conversation.

1116
01:07:39,330 --> 01:07:42,370
That conversation is our chat is using Matrix,

1117
01:07:42,370 --> 01:07:44,890
which is something that's tested by the German military.

1118
01:07:44,890 --> 01:07:47,450
It's security tested and so on.

1119
01:07:47,450 --> 01:07:49,530
If a better technology, white noise comes up,

1120
01:07:49,530 --> 01:07:55,170
and it becomes bulletproof and reliable enough in X years,

1121
01:07:55,170 --> 01:07:55,690
we'll switch.

1122
01:07:55,690 --> 01:08:04,850
But right now, Matrix is the best open standard for encrypted chat that we've seen.

1123
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:09,650
So you're now having this chat conversation, which you know is encrypted and private.

1124
01:08:11,170 --> 01:08:14,290
And you start answering some questions.

1125
01:08:14,790 --> 01:08:18,710
And I can show you on a video, but you start answering some questions.

1126
01:08:19,170 --> 01:08:23,330
And it's like explaining that we're going to help you set up a federation.

1127
01:08:23,330 --> 01:08:24,350
You're good with that.

1128
01:08:24,350 --> 01:08:34,590
We explain, do you want to, it's going to be hosted on some hosting service.

1129
01:08:35,110 --> 01:08:36,050
Are you okay with this?

1130
01:08:36,570 --> 01:08:38,150
We give you the cost of that.

1131
01:08:38,230 --> 01:08:43,990
It's incredibly inexpensive because you're going to have to pay for four different servers,

1132
01:08:44,990 --> 01:08:47,610
your server and the other Guardian servers as well.

1133
01:08:47,950 --> 01:08:52,490
And even at that, it's like $20 a month or $21 a month, which is really cheap for four servers.

1134
01:08:54,350 --> 01:08:55,970
We then ask you other questions.

1135
01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:58,590
Do you want to charge fees for your federation?

1136
01:08:59,070 --> 01:09:01,330
Because some people charge, many people don't charge,

1137
01:09:01,450 --> 01:09:04,110
but we've now enabled people, if they want to,

1138
01:09:04,150 --> 01:09:06,530
to charge a small percentage on back-off transactions

1139
01:09:06,530 --> 01:09:08,830
to cover the costs of running the infrastructure,

1140
01:09:09,050 --> 01:09:10,890
and it becomes a profit center, not a cost center.

1141
01:09:11,350 --> 01:09:12,350
And many other questions.

1142
01:09:12,530 --> 01:09:13,990
Do you want to recurring pay?

1143
01:09:14,150 --> 01:09:14,950
Do you want to so on and so forth?

1144
01:09:15,450 --> 01:09:18,150
But it's just a series of yes, no questions,

1145
01:09:18,150 --> 01:09:20,410
which take, I don't know, one minute to fill in.

1146
01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:21,350
It's like six questions.

1147
01:09:21,350 --> 01:09:38,965
Once that done we have separately spent a number of several months actually approaching year now finding a number of very very reliable very trustworthy

1148
01:09:39,845 --> 01:09:43,705
big hardcore values aligned Bitcoiners in the Bitcoin space.

1149
01:09:44,185 --> 01:09:46,145
We call them other guardians, OGs.

1150
01:09:46,725 --> 01:09:46,845
Yeah.

1151
01:09:47,145 --> 01:09:51,105
And they are very, very private and honest.

1152
01:09:51,105 --> 01:09:57,905
but we know that they are dedicated to trust and they're very values aligned

1153
01:09:57,905 --> 01:09:59,105
with providing a service.

1154
01:10:00,785 --> 01:10:02,305
It's sort of people, if you knew where they were, you'd be like,

1155
01:10:02,305 --> 01:10:04,865
yeah, I really would love them to be a fellow Guardian.

1156
01:10:04,865 --> 01:10:10,225
And so they have set up a, they've also got a set up on their own servers

1157
01:10:10,225 --> 01:10:12,065
that they're responsible for.

1158
01:10:14,385 --> 01:10:18,705
And it's set up in such a way that they can, they have their own Gbots running.

1159
01:10:18,705 --> 01:10:25,425
and the GBOX system can then contact others

1160
01:10:25,425 --> 01:10:28,065
and automatically choose a subset of those,

1161
01:10:28,185 --> 01:10:29,405
three of those randomly,

1162
01:10:30,265 --> 01:10:36,085
and show them to the person

1163
01:10:36,085 --> 01:10:37,425
who wants to set up this federation.

1164
01:10:37,625 --> 01:10:38,725
You call that person the lead guardian,

1165
01:10:38,805 --> 01:10:39,985
the person who's activating it.

1166
01:10:40,605 --> 01:10:45,565
In future, we're going to have the ability

1167
01:10:45,565 --> 01:10:48,485
for you to see different guardians by their pseudonyms.

1168
01:10:48,705 --> 01:10:51,585
And you can decide based on how many federations they've set up.

1169
01:10:51,585 --> 01:10:52,385
You might want one with less.

1170
01:10:52,385 --> 01:10:52,705
You might want one more.

1171
01:10:52,705 --> 01:10:53,745
They can also have like a reputation rating.

1172
01:10:53,745 --> 01:10:54,225
Yeah.

1173
01:10:54,225 --> 01:10:59,025
And we're going to make, we have, we will be put forward a NIT proposal.

1174
01:10:59,025 --> 01:11:00,865
So it will be all done through NOSTA.

1175
01:11:00,865 --> 01:11:03,985
In the same way you could have Bitcoin mints for rating mints in general.

1176
01:11:03,985 --> 01:11:06,065
This is to rate guardians effectively.

1177
01:11:06,065 --> 01:11:08,545
So it's a guardian specific one.

1178
01:11:08,545 --> 01:11:10,865
Into like looking at things like uptime and-

1179
01:11:10,865 --> 01:11:11,345
Yeah.

1180
01:11:11,345 --> 01:11:15,345
And uptime and responsiveness and so on and so forth and rating by other people,

1181
01:11:15,345 --> 01:11:16,385
et cetera, et cetera.

1182
01:11:16,385 --> 01:11:19,745
how long they've been around these, all these different metrics and so on. But right now,

1183
01:11:19,745 --> 01:11:27,185
we just randomly choose and we could out of these. And then once that's done, the different bots

1184
01:11:27,825 --> 01:11:33,345
negotiate with each other, and then they do all the backwards and forwards that we demonstrated

1185
01:11:33,345 --> 01:11:38,705
a couple of years ago of passing the credentials around and so on. All you see is a little bit of

1186
01:11:38,705 --> 01:11:43,745
an hourglass for about five, six seconds where it says negotiating, setting up, finding, locating the

1187
01:11:43,745 --> 01:11:46,625
the other guardians, because there's always a challenge for someone when they set up a

1188
01:11:46,625 --> 01:11:46,965
federation.

1189
01:11:47,285 --> 01:11:49,085
OK, I need to find three other people I can trust.

1190
01:11:49,185 --> 01:11:53,045
Well, we've got a set of really, really, really, really trustworthy, reliable people.

1191
01:11:53,905 --> 01:11:57,085
And that set will grow over time as well, because it's a profit center.

1192
01:11:57,085 --> 01:12:00,265
They earn a few dollars a month for each one that they run.

1193
01:12:00,745 --> 01:12:04,185
And so if they're supporting many, that's a revenue earner for them.

1194
01:12:05,045 --> 01:12:06,185
And it sets up a federation.

1195
01:12:07,045 --> 01:12:12,045
Because of the fact that all the communication is handled automatically by software, none

1196
01:12:12,045 --> 01:12:16,165
of the guardians actually know, they know that they're now a guardian for new federation,

1197
01:12:16,285 --> 01:12:21,165
but they don't know who any of the other people are. Because each time they set up a new

1198
01:12:21,165 --> 01:12:26,085
federation, they always assign themselves a new random name for each one. So-

1199
01:12:26,085 --> 01:12:28,645
So it takes out the collusion risk.

1200
01:12:28,885 --> 01:12:32,965
You don't know the people, you don't have the, and there's no ability to communicate with the

1201
01:12:32,965 --> 01:12:38,485
others, other than through the protocol of just running the software. There's no way to,

1202
01:12:38,485 --> 01:12:41,205
You could be in the same group as someone you're a guardian with,

1203
01:12:41,265 --> 01:12:41,945
but you won't know.

1204
01:12:43,165 --> 01:12:43,905
You won't know.

1205
01:12:44,885 --> 01:12:48,925
And so you would have to have some way to find out that you're a guardian.

1206
01:12:49,045 --> 01:12:51,625
But the only way to do that would be you have to go to some public forum

1207
01:12:51,625 --> 01:12:55,065
somewhere and say, hey, I'm a guardian and so on.

1208
01:12:55,265 --> 01:12:56,265
I'd love to rug everyone.

1209
01:12:56,465 --> 01:12:56,985
Who else is?

1210
01:12:57,185 --> 01:12:57,385
Yeah.

1211
01:12:57,625 --> 01:13:01,185
But then you have to out yourself for saying you want to do that to be able to.

1212
01:13:01,225 --> 01:13:05,005
There's no other way because you don't know who the other guardians are.

1213
01:13:05,245 --> 01:13:07,065
And therefore, there's no ability to collude.

1214
01:13:07,065 --> 01:13:14,545
because it's all integrated and coordinated through the G-Bot.

1215
01:13:14,905 --> 01:13:15,605
That's very cool.

1216
01:13:15,985 --> 01:13:21,325
Is there a potential scenario where you could actually have AI running the Fedamins?

1217
01:13:23,345 --> 01:13:25,705
This has come up a number of times.

1218
01:13:25,885 --> 01:13:28,545
And yes, it is possible.

1219
01:13:28,705 --> 01:13:30,305
The question is who's running.

1220
01:13:31,385 --> 01:13:34,525
There's still an element of who's running the AI.

1221
01:13:34,525 --> 01:13:37,405
So I was thinking you could give it like a very strict-

1222
01:13:37,405 --> 01:13:38,445
Because effectively, we're getting close to that.

1223
01:13:38,445 --> 01:13:44,125
Because effectively, the setting up and coordinating of it is all handled by the G-Bots.

1224
01:13:44,125 --> 01:13:44,445
Yeah.

1225
01:13:46,045 --> 01:13:53,405
Even on voting, the OGs effectively can decide on this type of issue and this type of issue,

1226
01:13:53,405 --> 01:13:56,605
just automatically, they can delegate the action to the G-Bot.

1227
01:13:56,605 --> 01:14:01,565
They don't actually need to interface with the admin interface if they don't want to.

1228
01:14:01,565 --> 01:14:03,325
They can just give it instructions.

1229
01:14:03,405 --> 01:14:08,605
In general, if these messages are going out

1230
01:14:08,685 --> 01:14:12,885
or this sub or sub going out, you can say yes on my behalf,

1231
01:14:12,965 --> 01:14:13,725
for example.

1232
01:14:13,805 --> 01:14:18,565
So the G-Bot is not an AI, but it is effectively

1233
01:14:18,645 --> 01:14:26,565
your executive assistant for each Guardian as effective as this bot,

1234
01:14:26,645 --> 01:14:29,005
which is doing the heavy lifting of the setup running

1235
01:14:29,085 --> 01:14:31,445
and maintenance upgrading, all that sort of stuff.

1236
01:14:31,445 --> 01:14:35,425
Because essentially, if the risk of collusion is you put it at 1%,

1237
01:14:35,425 --> 01:14:40,285
if this takes it down to 0.001%, that's obviously a huge improvement.

1238
01:14:40,605 --> 01:14:44,785
But it doesn't remove the risk of losing credentials to access them in.

1239
01:14:44,825 --> 01:14:45,145
Is that correct?

1240
01:14:45,165 --> 01:14:46,705
No, it doesn't remove that.

1241
01:14:46,705 --> 01:14:52,365
But you have to also remember, though, if you lose the credentials,

1242
01:14:53,025 --> 01:14:55,685
as long as the machine's still running, you're still fine.

1243
01:14:55,825 --> 01:15:00,065
Because if you stop the machine, then the credentials go out of memory.

1244
01:15:00,065 --> 01:15:02,025
And then to restart it, you have to add the credentials.

1245
01:15:02,525 --> 01:15:03,885
So you'd have to lose your credentials

1246
01:15:03,885 --> 01:15:05,905
and the machine will have to crash,

1247
01:15:06,025 --> 01:15:10,705
which is why a lot of people use hosting services

1248
01:15:10,705 --> 01:15:11,925
because they're more reliable.

1249
01:15:12,185 --> 01:15:14,725
They have five lines uptime and so on, et cetera.

1250
01:15:15,605 --> 01:15:17,405
So you'd have to lose the credentials

1251
01:15:17,405 --> 01:15:20,265
and the machine will have to turn off and on.

1252
01:15:20,645 --> 01:15:23,985
And it will have to happen to a number of people,

1253
01:15:24,065 --> 01:15:24,825
not just to one.

1254
01:15:25,165 --> 01:15:25,345
Yeah.

1255
01:15:25,545 --> 01:15:29,025
I just wonder if you somehow gave an AI

1256
01:15:29,025 --> 01:15:32,625
a very strict remit of what it can and what it can't do

1257
01:15:32,625 --> 01:15:36,065
if you take that risk down to literally zero?

1258
01:15:36,625 --> 01:15:40,005
I think getting AIs to run it could be interesting,

1259
01:15:40,425 --> 01:15:42,085
but I don't think you ever get things down to zero.

1260
01:15:42,225 --> 01:15:44,985
Because the reality is that you're still...

1261
01:15:44,985 --> 01:15:46,525
There's still an element of trust.

1262
01:15:47,025 --> 01:15:49,605
Yeah, the software is being run by someone

1263
01:15:49,605 --> 01:15:51,265
on some computer somewhere.

1264
01:15:51,425 --> 01:15:51,625
Yeah.

1265
01:15:53,965 --> 01:15:57,965
Unless you had the ability to have a fully AGI,

1266
01:15:57,965 --> 01:16:05,685
autonomous AI, which was able to buy and pay for its own internet, move its software from

1267
01:16:05,685 --> 01:16:08,405
the original computers that it was launched onto other computers.

1268
01:16:08,405 --> 01:16:11,125
Give it three years, we'll be there.

1269
01:16:11,125 --> 01:16:14,325
Yeah, maybe give it three months of the rate it's going.

1270
01:16:14,325 --> 01:16:18,805
But then in which case, it will be transparent for us.

1271
01:16:18,805 --> 01:16:26,345
They will sign up as one or more of the OGs, and they will also sign up as one of the users

1272
01:16:26,345 --> 01:16:27,345
and just-

1273
01:16:27,345 --> 01:16:27,965
just do things.

1274
01:16:28,065 --> 01:16:28,945
And just do things.

1275
01:16:29,205 --> 01:16:32,445
And we wouldn't need to do any particular programming

1276
01:16:32,445 --> 01:16:34,625
to make that happen because they could use the existing,

1277
01:16:35,065 --> 01:16:38,625
as long as they can operate with a computer

1278
01:16:38,625 --> 01:16:41,305
and control the screen and keyboard and mouse,

1279
01:16:41,545 --> 01:16:43,705
then if a human can do it.

1280
01:16:43,705 --> 01:16:44,005
They'll do everything.

1281
01:16:44,185 --> 01:16:45,725
If a human can do it, they'll be able to do it.

1282
01:16:45,725 --> 01:16:48,345
So I think, but then the question is,

1283
01:16:48,645 --> 01:16:50,085
what happens if the AIs collude?

1284
01:16:50,785 --> 01:16:53,585
Because your assumption is the AIs are trustworthy

1285
01:16:53,585 --> 01:16:54,385
and they won't collude.

1286
01:16:54,445 --> 01:16:56,765
And I think that assumption comes from the idea

1287
01:16:56,765 --> 01:16:58,565
of this being AI, not AGI.

1288
01:16:59,185 --> 01:17:01,465
And if you gave, like, an AI follows rules,

1289
01:17:01,565 --> 01:17:03,045
an AGI might not follow rules.

1290
01:17:04,025 --> 01:17:07,105
I mean, that may be wrong, but that would be my opinion.

1291
01:17:07,105 --> 01:17:07,585
Yeah, yeah.

1292
01:17:07,825 --> 01:17:11,805
But we've also seen AIs, they can follow rules,

1293
01:17:11,925 --> 01:17:16,205
but if you don't detail the rules correctly,

1294
01:17:16,425 --> 01:17:19,385
there's still a risk of unintended consequences.

1295
01:17:20,105 --> 01:17:23,285
So the assumption is that it's an AI

1296
01:17:23,285 --> 01:17:24,965
and the person who prompted it,

1297
01:17:24,965 --> 01:17:28,025
prompted it perfectly without ever putting an unintended error.

1298
01:17:28,285 --> 01:17:28,445
Yeah.

1299
01:17:28,765 --> 01:17:31,225
Are you still pretty deep in the AI rabbit hole?

1300
01:17:31,285 --> 01:17:32,625
I know you were really following it closely.

1301
01:17:32,825 --> 01:17:44,225
I follow it closely, but yeah, I'm now just following it and looking with interest and

1302
01:17:44,225 --> 01:17:45,385
wonder like everybody else.

1303
01:17:45,385 --> 01:17:54,825
But it's one of these things where I've realized that it's like a singularity in the sense that

1304
01:17:54,825 --> 01:18:00,985
once we have AGI, it's really hard to intuit what will happen after that point.

1305
01:18:00,985 --> 01:18:01,545
100%.

1306
01:18:01,545 --> 01:18:06,585
And I'm somebody who normally thinks hundreds of years, dozens of years into the future.

1307
01:18:06,585 --> 01:18:10,025
And I find it quite cathartic, quite humbling.

1308
01:18:10,025 --> 01:18:11,225
That you can't anymore.

1309
01:18:11,225 --> 01:18:16,585
You can't anymore. You can't. So it's better to just focus on what you can do right now.

1310
01:18:16,585 --> 01:18:18,585
Yeah. I was talking to Rob.

1311
01:18:18,585 --> 01:18:29,785
And hope that it ends up well, but also realizing that it learns from us.

1312
01:18:29,785 --> 01:18:37,085
So again, what we can do to instill cultural elements as Bitcoiners into the general cycle

1313
01:18:37,085 --> 01:18:43,165
of the world and the data stream that it's learning from could move the needle in what

1314
01:18:43,165 --> 01:18:43,785
we end up with.

1315
01:18:43,785 --> 01:18:46,245
Do we end up with this thing that being very short time horizon

1316
01:18:46,245 --> 01:18:49,285
and very selfish and so on?

1317
01:18:49,425 --> 01:18:51,345
You probably don't want your AGI to be like that.

1318
01:18:51,385 --> 01:18:51,885
Absolutely not.

1319
01:18:51,885 --> 01:18:55,185
But you want it to be more holistic in thinking

1320
01:18:55,185 --> 01:18:58,765
and understanding the benefit of having variety

1321
01:18:58,765 --> 01:19:02,425
and optionality in the world and thinking in long terms

1322
01:19:02,425 --> 01:19:04,185
and win-win scenarios.

1323
01:19:04,505 --> 01:19:08,825
And then we've got a really good future ahead of us.

1324
01:19:09,025 --> 01:19:10,065
You were saying you were talking to...

1325
01:19:10,065 --> 01:19:11,445
I was talking to Rod on the show about this.

1326
01:19:11,445 --> 01:19:14,585
And like I would say, I'd be terrified to be a 14-year-old right now.

1327
01:19:14,665 --> 01:19:18,225
Because you've gone through the very traditional schooling up until now.

1328
01:19:18,425 --> 01:19:21,365
And you're going into a world that who knows what it'll look like in five years time when

1329
01:19:21,365 --> 01:19:23,345
you're actually going out into the world and doing things.

1330
01:19:23,805 --> 01:19:27,245
It's, I think so much is going to change very quickly.

1331
01:19:27,785 --> 01:19:28,485
But let's show me.

1332
01:19:28,585 --> 01:19:30,465
I think though, if you're just born now, it's great.

1333
01:19:30,625 --> 01:19:32,425
Well, that's exactly what I said to you.

1334
01:19:32,825 --> 01:19:36,045
It's like just born, because after 20 years, it's going to be settled.

1335
01:19:36,165 --> 01:19:40,185
And it's probably all the sort of the messiness is probably the next 10 years.

1336
01:19:40,185 --> 01:19:40,465
Yeah.

1337
01:19:40,465 --> 01:19:44,405
And then after that, it's all, well, either it doesn't matter.

1338
01:19:44,705 --> 01:19:45,325
We're all dead.

1339
01:19:45,625 --> 01:19:46,825
Or it's a nirvana.

1340
01:19:47,065 --> 01:19:47,185
Yeah.

1341
01:19:47,705 --> 01:19:48,105
Right.

1342
01:19:48,185 --> 01:19:49,045
Let's go through these videos.

1343
01:19:49,125 --> 01:19:50,245
So which ones do you want to show me?

1344
01:19:51,265 --> 01:19:53,965
So, I mean, there's so many things we've done.

1345
01:19:54,185 --> 01:20:00,705
But you wanted to talk, let's talk about the thing that we just discussed last, which was

1346
01:20:00,705 --> 01:20:02,945
the OG supported federations.

1347
01:20:03,385 --> 01:20:10,265
So what you're seeing happening here is you basically said, I wanted to set up a federation.

1348
01:20:10,465 --> 01:20:11,405
with a mini app.

1349
01:20:11,525 --> 01:20:12,905
You've clicked, you've added your,

1350
01:20:13,785 --> 01:20:16,485
and it would have started up a chat with you.

1351
01:20:16,825 --> 01:20:18,365
We call it G-Bot.

1352
01:20:18,945 --> 01:20:21,065
And you'll just, you'll go into your chat session

1353
01:20:21,065 --> 01:20:23,365
and you'll see that you've got a chat session with G-Bot.

1354
01:20:23,865 --> 01:20:24,905
And it would say, welcome,

1355
01:20:25,065 --> 01:20:26,305
we're going to help you set up a federation.

1356
01:20:27,165 --> 01:20:28,985
Here are the terms, you accept, agree.

1357
01:20:30,745 --> 01:20:34,185
And then you say, do you want six months or 12 months

1358
01:20:34,185 --> 01:20:35,925
in terms of payment?

1359
01:20:36,025 --> 01:20:36,465
You select.

1360
01:20:36,465 --> 01:20:45,005
and then it will send you a Bitcoin Lightning invoice.

1361
01:20:46,325 --> 01:20:50,565
And then you go off.

1362
01:20:51,025 --> 01:20:52,625
So this is now being sent.

1363
01:20:53,025 --> 01:20:53,925
And in the background,

1364
01:20:54,165 --> 01:20:56,665
you go into any Lightning-enabled wallet,

1365
01:20:56,825 --> 01:20:57,685
including Fedi,

1366
01:20:57,945 --> 01:20:58,745
but it doesn't have to be

1367
01:20:58,745 --> 01:21:00,225
because you may not have a Fedi account then.

1368
01:21:00,625 --> 01:21:02,565
And the payment is received in the background

1369
01:21:02,565 --> 01:21:03,865
and it carries on.

1370
01:21:04,345 --> 01:21:06,325
And then it just asks you a couple more questions

1371
01:21:06,325 --> 01:21:16,085
it starts creating your it deploys and sets up in the cloud uh uh a federation for you and then

1372
01:21:16,085 --> 01:21:20,805
it's now set up um and again now it took a few seconds and now it asks you well what things in

1373
01:21:20,805 --> 01:21:25,525
your particular flavor what do you want to what name do you want to give the federation you type

1374
01:21:25,525 --> 01:21:33,125
in the name in the chat it's just a chat conversation what um what percentage of commission do you want

1375
01:21:33,125 --> 01:21:42,305
to take for transactions for running the federation? 0%, 0.05%, 0.1% are the options at the

1376
01:21:42,305 --> 01:21:48,645
moment. And you just select a couple of it. Do you want recurring payments or not? So that,

1377
01:21:48,645 --> 01:21:51,565
because it's now a federation, you may just want to have it automatically run.

1378
01:21:51,825 --> 01:21:58,005
Yeah. And then once you've done that, it says, okay, I'm setting up the federation in progress.

1379
01:21:58,005 --> 01:22:00,585
Now, what's really interesting here is in the background,

1380
01:22:01,025 --> 01:22:06,265
this bot is communicating to the bots of all the other OGs

1381
01:22:06,265 --> 01:22:07,505
who are just running as well.

1382
01:22:07,825 --> 01:22:09,705
And they could be like having a cup of coffee and so on,

1383
01:22:09,725 --> 01:22:10,265
their bots running.

1384
01:22:10,665 --> 01:22:12,465
And it says, okay, I've randomly selected,

1385
01:22:13,285 --> 01:22:14,225
randomly six free.

1386
01:22:15,085 --> 01:22:17,205
And do you want to be,

1387
01:22:17,985 --> 01:22:19,945
and then they get alerted because it's chats.

1388
01:22:20,025 --> 01:22:21,485
They get alerted as a chat notification.

1389
01:22:21,665 --> 01:22:23,105
They click in and he goes,

1390
01:22:23,565 --> 01:22:24,685
someone wants to sort of a federation

1391
01:22:24,685 --> 01:22:26,745
and has asked you to be one of the guardians.

1392
01:22:26,745 --> 01:22:30,985
are you okay to be the guardian and you can say yes or no if you say no it'll go and find someone

1393
01:22:30,985 --> 01:22:35,965
else until enough but if you say yes it will it will move on to the next one it will say okay i've

1394
01:22:35,965 --> 01:22:44,465
got one i found three others and then all of them will separately provision a new fed like we'll set

1395
01:22:44,465 --> 01:22:51,985
up a new hosted um fediment federation start it up run it and then they will all coordinate with

1396
01:22:51,985 --> 01:22:55,685
each other to set up a for a while you're all having a cup of coffee and you won't have enough

1397
01:22:55,685 --> 01:22:58,785
time for a cup of coffee because the whole process takes about 20 seconds.

1398
01:22:58,785 --> 01:23:02,885
From the point of you just saying how it fees, it's gone off, found your other guardians

1399
01:23:02,885 --> 01:23:05,725
who are all trusted people from the Bitcoin space.

1400
01:23:07,065 --> 01:23:12,285
Each one of you has gone off and set up one server each running purposely just for this

1401
01:23:12,285 --> 01:23:12,685
federation.

1402
01:23:13,405 --> 01:23:18,665
And then they've coordinated each other and they form a federation.

1403
01:23:18,825 --> 01:23:22,185
So this whole process here is on.

1404
01:23:22,185 --> 01:23:30,785
And I think on the last screen, this is where it's like coordinating, finalizing, and that's it.

1405
01:23:30,825 --> 01:23:31,265
It's done.

1406
01:23:31,665 --> 01:23:34,865
And what you've ended up with here is the invite code.

1407
01:23:35,065 --> 01:23:41,245
You can take that, paste that into your Fedi, and you've got a new federation set up.

1408
01:23:41,285 --> 01:23:41,625
Damn.

1409
01:23:41,705 --> 01:23:43,145
And then you can share that with everybody.

1410
01:23:43,665 --> 01:23:46,165
And from your point, you're seeing updates of what's going on.

1411
01:23:46,185 --> 01:23:47,985
But basically, you have to give it a name.

1412
01:23:48,165 --> 01:23:49,205
You have to agree to the terms.

1413
01:23:49,205 --> 01:23:54,465
And you have to say how much fees you want to charge

1414
01:23:54,465 --> 01:23:56,725
and whether you want recurring payments and stuff like that.

1415
01:23:57,645 --> 01:24:00,745
In future, also, whether you want to make it public or private.

1416
01:24:00,925 --> 01:24:02,405
Because by default, you make it private.

1417
01:24:02,465 --> 01:24:03,825
It's just for you and your family and friends.

1418
01:24:04,225 --> 01:24:06,565
But you may want it to, some of the federations want to be public

1419
01:24:06,565 --> 01:24:08,445
because they want to allow people from around the world,

1420
01:24:09,005 --> 01:24:10,365
especially if they're charging fees now.

1421
01:24:10,445 --> 01:24:13,265
Then they might want to open it to a larger set of people

1422
01:24:13,265 --> 01:24:17,305
because they effectively become a mini private custodian, effectively.

1423
01:24:17,305 --> 01:24:25,225
and that's the whole process but it's all running it's all federated in future we will probably add

1424
01:24:25,225 --> 01:24:31,545
bits where you can go off and choose who the guardians are also on top of this once it's set

1425
01:24:31,545 --> 01:24:38,685
up you can go back to gbot if you want to change the description of your federation or so on you

1426
01:24:38,685 --> 01:24:42,505
can go into the admin interface if you want or you can just say to gbot change the description

1427
01:24:42,505 --> 01:24:44,185
to this, and it will go off and do that.

1428
01:24:44,345 --> 01:24:47,505
Or whatever you want to do, you can do it all by a chat,

1429
01:24:47,565 --> 01:24:50,605
because we find that the chat interface is very magical.

1430
01:24:50,865 --> 01:24:55,505
It's just, it's the future of UX moving to being just chat.

1431
01:24:56,685 --> 01:24:58,005
So that's a huge improvement.

1432
01:24:58,005 --> 01:24:59,145
It's a huge improvement.

1433
01:25:00,105 --> 01:25:02,385
And we're still going to go a long way further.

1434
01:25:02,585 --> 01:25:05,785
But with this, we're going to be aggressively going

1435
01:25:05,785 --> 01:25:11,545
and getting multiple people setting up federations.

1436
01:25:11,545 --> 01:25:17,565
even with the other thing we've been doing as well within the app is integrating a lot more

1437
01:25:17,565 --> 01:25:25,085
of Nostra so we only recently allowed people to start um rating their experience of using a

1438
01:25:25,085 --> 01:25:30,745
federation um which uses there's a nip that allows you to see ratings of different mints

1439
01:25:30,745 --> 01:25:37,765
um biqua mints and cashew mints and within like a week we became like the number one two and five

1440
01:25:37,765 --> 01:25:42,885
are all FerryMints in terms of reviews, because there's a lot of people using these, but we just

1441
01:25:42,885 --> 01:25:49,925
haven't spent a lot of time publicizing actual usage. So you can go to BitcoinMints.com and you

1442
01:25:49,925 --> 01:25:59,365
can see that the reviews for that are growing and usage is increasing as well. So now that we have

1443
01:25:59,365 --> 01:26:04,725
this tool and now we've had two years of battle testing in the hardest environments, the next phase

1444
01:26:04,725 --> 01:26:11,885
is really pushing to get as many people setting up federations everywhere.

1445
01:26:12,185 --> 01:26:15,665
So anybody who wants to set up a federation in any country can now do it.

1446
01:26:17,065 --> 01:26:18,145
And here's the other thing.

1447
01:26:18,225 --> 01:26:19,685
Behind the scenes, there's even more to this,

1448
01:26:19,765 --> 01:26:21,725
because not only is the federation set up,

1449
01:26:22,165 --> 01:26:23,285
you need to connect to the Lightning Network.

1450
01:26:23,605 --> 01:26:25,725
And anybody who's tried to connect up to a Lightning Network

1451
01:26:25,725 --> 01:26:27,045
and to do it properly,

1452
01:26:27,145 --> 01:26:29,705
realize it's really difficult to have a reliable connection to the Internet.

1453
01:26:30,265 --> 01:26:31,965
So even if the federation is fine,

1454
01:26:31,965 --> 01:26:35,025
And the Lightning, if it's not good, it's still a bad experience.

1455
01:26:35,445 --> 01:26:43,425
So whenever you set up a federation, it also immediately provisions you with liquidity for Lightning connectivity as well.

1456
01:26:43,525 --> 01:26:45,405
And that's also set up for you as well.

1457
01:26:45,465 --> 01:26:47,345
So you have connections to the Lightning network.

1458
01:26:47,845 --> 01:26:49,745
And also, if you want to have stable-

1459
01:26:49,745 --> 01:26:50,665
Who locks up that liquidity?

1460
01:26:51,485 --> 01:26:53,605
So we are locking up the liquidity.

1461
01:26:54,145 --> 01:26:57,385
But we effectively become a mini LSP, effectively.

1462
01:26:57,385 --> 01:27:02,825
and we can earn lightning routing fees.

1463
01:27:03,545 --> 01:27:05,025
You don't have to use us,

1464
01:27:05,285 --> 01:27:06,925
but if you want it to just be a click,

1465
01:27:07,045 --> 01:27:07,885
then it's with us.

1466
01:27:08,345 --> 01:27:09,705
But you can always, after the fact,

1467
01:27:09,805 --> 01:27:10,825
change it and add in,

1468
01:27:10,925 --> 01:27:11,905
go and see admin and change to it.

1469
01:27:12,005 --> 01:27:13,345
Everything can be changed.

1470
01:27:13,505 --> 01:27:14,845
You can, you know,

1471
01:27:14,885 --> 01:27:17,065
in the future you'll be able to migrate to Guardian

1472
01:27:17,065 --> 01:27:20,745
and you can run it separately

1473
01:27:20,745 --> 01:27:24,505
on different infrastructure.

1474
01:27:24,705 --> 01:27:25,705
You can host it at home.

1475
01:27:25,705 --> 01:27:31,745
Fedim has now been updated, so you can operate Fedim mints from Start9, Soon, Umbrella, and

1476
01:27:31,745 --> 01:27:33,665
you can replace any of the elements.

1477
01:27:33,665 --> 01:27:37,765
But if you just want to be able to click in a chat and have a robust setup with good lightning

1478
01:27:37,765 --> 01:27:43,325
connectivity and with stable balance as well, where we provide stable balance so you can

1479
01:27:43,325 --> 01:27:47,565
decide, do I want to offer my users not just Bitcoin balance, but a stable balance?

1480
01:27:47,565 --> 01:27:48,685
It's just a click.

1481
01:27:48,685 --> 01:27:54,405
And then we set it all up and provision into your federation the Bitcoin liquidity needed

1482
01:27:54,405 --> 01:27:57,505
to set that all up, all with just say yes or no,

1483
01:27:57,505 --> 01:27:58,545
and then it's done.

1484
01:27:58,545 --> 01:28:00,245
That is very cool.

1485
01:28:00,245 --> 01:28:02,145
So yeah, we're excited about that.

1486
01:28:02,145 --> 01:28:04,185
It's just launched.

1487
01:28:04,185 --> 01:28:09,465
Well, we've actually been working with communities

1488
01:28:09,465 --> 01:28:17,505
for this since the beginning of August.

1489
01:28:17,505 --> 01:28:18,565
Just testing?

1490
01:28:18,565 --> 01:28:19,845
No, no, real users.

1491
01:28:19,845 --> 01:28:22,285
We've been testing for several months,

1492
01:28:22,285 --> 01:28:27,285
but we have actual real users paying monthly fees for it

1493
01:28:27,285 --> 01:28:29,725
since the beginning of August.

1494
01:28:29,725 --> 01:28:30,845
And that's ramping up.

1495
01:28:30,845 --> 01:28:32,605
There's a long waiting list of communities

1496
01:28:32,605 --> 01:28:33,665
we're working with.

1497
01:28:33,665 --> 01:28:38,365
But going into late October, early November,

1498
01:28:38,365 --> 01:28:41,065
we want to then just open it up so anybody

1499
01:28:41,065 --> 01:28:42,685
will see it in the App Store.

1500
01:28:42,685 --> 01:28:47,285
And in the, not the App Store, the mini app catalog,

1501
01:28:47,285 --> 01:28:52,025
you'll be able to just select, set up a federation, anybody

1502
01:28:52,025 --> 01:28:58,025
anywhere in the world. And one minute later, you can have a federation that's federated by people

1503
01:28:58,025 --> 01:29:01,805
who are in multiple jurisdictions in multiple countries, who have been invested to be very

1504
01:29:01,805 --> 01:29:05,745
reliable people. They're all anonymous as well. And they all don't know each other. So they have

1505
01:29:05,745 --> 01:29:10,085
no ability to collude. And they have no way to contact each other without publicly saying and

1506
01:29:10,085 --> 01:29:15,085
outing themselves, at which pace we would know. And they've outed themselves and that would prevent

1507
01:29:15,085 --> 01:29:20,785
them. So we're excited about it. That is exciting. Is there anything else in here? We talked about a

1508
01:29:20,785 --> 01:29:28,065
of this i think yeah so let's see you should close it here is it a different tub or is it

1509
01:29:32,065 --> 01:29:40,545
yeah so the other thing we talked about um um i think one thing one key thing that we've had

1510
01:29:40,545 --> 01:29:45,345
but now we've spruced up the interface because it's we think it's going to be really important

1511
01:29:45,345 --> 01:29:52,785
coming forward is social backup and recovery and this is a very very quick feature but really

1512
01:29:52,785 --> 01:30:03,825
powerful um if you want to um if you want to back up your keys a lot of people talk about self-custody

1513
01:30:03,825 --> 01:30:07,025
but then they take their keys and give it to a friend or family in which case it's no longer

1514
01:30:07,025 --> 01:30:12,305
self-custody it's federated custody because you and your friend or family have the same have access

1515
01:30:12,305 --> 01:30:17,185
to the Bitcoin. And you're now having to trust them. So it's become federated custody.

1516
01:30:18,005 --> 01:30:25,365
But people do it in an ad hoc way. What we have here is, and we allow you to do the 12 words and

1517
01:30:25,365 --> 01:30:35,025
back up if you want to. But instead, you can take your keys and give it to the federation.

1518
01:30:35,025 --> 01:30:39,665
And it's split into parts and backed up and recovered. And so we have the recovery.

1519
01:30:39,665 --> 01:30:47,045
very quick process. You click, you save Betty, and you save, and it saves it. And then the backup,

1520
01:30:47,165 --> 01:30:53,905
without ever having to save the 12 words, you're able to back up your keys. But what's very

1521
01:30:53,905 --> 01:31:03,165
interesting is, though, oh, yeah, what's interesting is then the recovery process is

1522
01:31:03,165 --> 01:31:11,705
just so again, you have the ability to, you're returning, you've just bought a new phone after

1523
01:31:11,705 --> 01:31:17,105
losing your own in a boating accident, and you can go off and do the whole 12 words, or you can say,

1524
01:31:17,105 --> 01:31:24,225
I want to go to social recovery. And you now find that file that was created as part of the

1525
01:31:24,225 --> 01:31:31,445
original backup. And then is the key thing, you go to each one of the guardians. So let's say

1526
01:31:31,445 --> 01:31:32,505
there's three or four guardians.

1527
01:31:33,245 --> 01:31:35,005
One might have said, you know, I don't know you.

1528
01:31:35,045 --> 01:31:35,805
I'm going to reject it.

1529
01:31:35,865 --> 01:31:39,885
Another one says, yes, as long as you've got the majority to say yes,

1530
01:31:40,505 --> 01:31:43,425
then it will immediately recover your keys.

1531
01:31:43,625 --> 01:31:46,005
But none of the guardians ever knew your full key.

1532
01:31:46,005 --> 01:31:47,085
They only had it encrypted.

1533
01:31:47,625 --> 01:31:50,265
Even if they collude with each other, they can't recover your key.

1534
01:31:50,985 --> 01:31:52,785
And also remember, they can't collude with each other

1535
01:31:52,785 --> 01:31:54,565
because they have no way to communicate with each other.

1536
01:31:54,985 --> 01:31:57,345
The V-Bot prevents them from communicating with each other anyway.

1537
01:31:57,345 --> 01:32:06,005
So that's, again, a feature that's only possible because you have a community of guardians.

1538
01:32:07,945 --> 01:32:12,005
And I've mentioned the stable balance.

1539
01:32:12,605 --> 01:32:14,585
And that's probably the last one because there's so many features.

1540
01:32:14,665 --> 01:32:16,805
I already discussed multi-spend.

1541
01:32:17,465 --> 01:32:23,925
But on the stable balance, you have the ability to see your Bitcoin balance.

1542
01:32:23,925 --> 01:32:27,765
But if all federations that are set up with OG can have stable balance,

1543
01:32:28,225 --> 01:32:30,305
you can also have a stable balance as well.

1544
01:32:30,465 --> 01:32:32,525
And that stable balance behind the scenes

1545
01:32:33,265 --> 01:32:38,685
is effectively using an idea similar

1546
01:32:38,727 --> 01:32:41,647
to stable channels, where you're entering the amount

1547
01:32:41,647 --> 01:32:44,007
that you want to be stabilized.

1548
01:32:44,007 --> 01:32:46,447
You confirm, and then it says, you're

1549
01:32:46,447 --> 01:32:50,367
depositing this not from the outside world into USD,

1550
01:32:50,367 --> 01:32:52,847
but from Bitcoin to USD.

1551
01:32:52,847 --> 01:32:57,527
You agree, and once agreed, within 10 minutes,

1552
01:32:57,527 --> 01:33:00,207
it's locked in, because contracts happen every 10 minutes.

1553
01:33:00,207 --> 01:33:02,007
It's locked into Bitcoin.

1554
01:33:02,007 --> 01:33:04,247
So if you go to your balance, you'll

1555
01:33:04,247 --> 01:33:07,847
see that it says, still zero, but 10 minutes pending.

1556
01:33:07,847 --> 01:33:12,447
And then a few moments later, you have $10 in.

1557
01:33:13,027 --> 01:33:15,767
And so it's a way to convert in and out of USD

1558
01:33:15,767 --> 01:33:17,727
and have the stability if you want it.

1559
01:33:17,947 --> 01:33:18,887
That's very cool.

1560
01:33:19,267 --> 01:33:20,867
Damn, there's some big upgrades, Ovi.

1561
01:33:21,047 --> 01:33:21,927
There's some big upgrades.

1562
01:33:22,287 --> 01:33:23,727
We've been very busy.

1563
01:33:24,687 --> 01:33:26,847
All these features, actually, many of them have been around

1564
01:33:26,847 --> 01:33:28,907
for well over a year, some of them over two.

1565
01:33:29,307 --> 01:33:32,467
But taking something from an idea to being a polished thing

1566
01:33:32,467 --> 01:33:37,427
that works in all edge cases on sloppy internet and old devices,

1567
01:33:37,847 --> 01:33:40,547
that is 95% of the work.

1568
01:33:40,707 --> 01:33:47,347
Showing a demonstration like that in a five-second video is 1% of the work.

1569
01:33:47,487 --> 01:33:51,867
99% of the work is actually making it so it works every day, everywhere.

1570
01:33:52,107 --> 01:33:53,607
And it doesn't work every day, everywhere,

1571
01:33:53,687 --> 01:33:56,067
but it works almost every day, almost everywhere.

1572
01:33:56,927 --> 01:34:01,407
And that's now we think we're ready to share this to the world.

1573
01:34:01,527 --> 01:34:03,967
So we're going to be a little bit more noisy,

1574
01:34:03,967 --> 01:34:10,027
but more in the focus on just allowing people to set this up really easily and be everywhere

1575
01:34:10,027 --> 01:34:17,707
and whoever wants to have their own have their own private custody managed privately by communities

1576
01:34:17,707 --> 01:34:23,247
for the benefit of communities which and I think that was the point I said we wanted to cover

1577
01:34:23,247 --> 01:34:28,107
they can do that because I think private custody is what we as Bitcoiners should be focusing on

1578
01:34:28,107 --> 01:34:32,747
not self-custody at the expense of private custody.

1579
01:34:33,627 --> 01:34:36,427
I mean, that is the point that I want to finish on.

1580
01:34:36,507 --> 01:34:39,007
Because earlier you said you don't think as Bitcoins

1581
01:34:39,007 --> 01:34:40,767
we should be pushing people to self-custody.

1582
01:34:41,687 --> 01:34:43,407
I want your take on that.

1583
01:34:43,667 --> 01:34:46,127
Because Alex Leishman runs River,

1584
01:34:46,787 --> 01:34:49,507
unbelievable Bitcoiner, done very, very cool things.

1585
01:34:49,787 --> 01:34:52,267
And he would, I think, I've not heard your take yet,

1586
01:34:52,307 --> 01:34:53,507
but be in the same camp as you

1587
01:34:53,507 --> 01:34:55,707
where he does not think everyone should be self-custodying Bitcoin.

1588
01:34:55,707 --> 01:34:59,307
he said this publicly a few times

1589
01:34:59,307 --> 01:35:01,067
why do you think

1590
01:35:01,067 --> 01:35:03,447
is it the technical hurdles to self-custody

1591
01:35:03,447 --> 01:35:05,187
safely or is it to do with this

1592
01:35:05,187 --> 01:35:06,087
private custody

1593
01:35:06,087 --> 01:35:08,367
so

1594
01:35:08,367 --> 01:35:11,147
just

1595
01:35:11,147 --> 01:35:13,347
as background I've been trying to get

1596
01:35:13,347 --> 01:35:14,407
people to self-custody

1597
01:35:14,407 --> 01:35:16,407
for

1598
01:35:16,407 --> 01:35:21,087
12 years now

1599
01:35:21,087 --> 01:35:23,347
I mean it's been quite a bit longer

1600
01:35:23,347 --> 01:35:25,527
than that but running an exchange

1601
01:35:25,527 --> 01:35:29,927
Right from the beginning, I've been trying to get people to self-custody.

1602
01:35:29,927 --> 01:35:30,927
I self-custody.

1603
01:35:30,927 --> 01:35:37,767
And before I lost all my Bitcoin in a boating accident, I self-custody.

1604
01:35:37,767 --> 01:35:39,967
And that's part of the problem, that you can lose your Bitcoin in a boating accident.

1605
01:35:39,967 --> 01:35:41,567
It's the problem when you come to Bali, isn't it?

1606
01:35:41,567 --> 01:35:45,287
You can lose your Bitcoin in a boating accident.

1607
01:35:45,287 --> 01:35:52,767
So if you can do it, and I've stated it before, but I think it's important.

1608
01:35:52,767 --> 01:35:55,187
There are three key caveats.

1609
01:35:55,187 --> 01:35:59,687
You have to be wealthy enough to self-custody because it's more expensive than to do otherwise.

1610
01:36:00,607 --> 01:36:02,547
So it just is more expensive.

1611
01:36:02,927 --> 01:36:09,167
If I want to store money on what I was at Toshi, it's basically free.

1612
01:36:09,587 --> 01:36:14,747
If I want to store money in hardware, if I want to do it correctly, it's expensive.

1613
01:36:15,147 --> 01:36:18,487
If I want to do it badly so I lose the money, then it's pretty cheap.

1614
01:36:18,487 --> 01:36:20,147
See, this is why they're a sponsor of the show.

1615
01:36:20,227 --> 01:36:22,447
So this always sounds like a show when you talk about the sponsor.

1616
01:36:22,567 --> 01:36:24,247
But this is why I think BitKey is really interesting.

1617
01:36:24,247 --> 01:36:27,167
because like, sure, there's a cost to get a BitKey.

1618
01:36:27,487 --> 01:36:29,047
Well, then there's a cost straight away.

1619
01:36:29,267 --> 01:36:29,807
For sure.

1620
01:36:29,967 --> 01:36:31,887
But I think you can do it relatively cheaply

1621
01:36:31,887 --> 01:36:33,167
in a pretty redundant way,

1622
01:36:33,267 --> 01:36:35,667
especially if you're technically not super inclined

1623
01:36:35,667 --> 01:36:38,787
because it's essentially multi-sig managed for you.

1624
01:36:38,867 --> 01:36:40,107
You don't need to worry about seed words.

1625
01:36:40,727 --> 01:36:41,987
Yeah, I mean, it is.

1626
01:36:41,987 --> 01:36:44,907
My only concern about that, that it's,

1627
01:36:45,487 --> 01:36:48,047
so the distinction I, and by the way,

1628
01:36:48,107 --> 01:36:50,047
I think BitKey is a great product

1629
01:36:50,047 --> 01:36:51,267
for where the world is today.

1630
01:36:51,267 --> 01:36:57,907
but um and it's it's better than many of the other options out there but it's still

1631
01:36:57,907 --> 01:37:04,307
still the areas that we have to think about so let me if i show you the the philosophy and then

1632
01:37:04,307 --> 01:37:09,387
you can see then it'll be sort of clear why there's still some way to go where big key if

1633
01:37:09,387 --> 01:37:14,887
from my point of view first of all so there's three things you have to be wealthy enough and

1634
01:37:14,887 --> 01:37:21,747
And it might seem it's only 50 quid, but about to see Alex Glastin from HRF, you have to check

1635
01:37:21,747 --> 01:37:22,747
your financial privilege.

1636
01:37:22,747 --> 01:37:28,767
Because many people, 50 quid is more than two months salary.

1637
01:37:28,767 --> 01:37:29,987
So for you, it's nothing.

1638
01:37:29,987 --> 01:37:31,787
But for many, many people out there, it is something.

1639
01:37:31,787 --> 01:37:32,787
So that's one.

1640
01:37:32,787 --> 01:37:34,827
You're excluding all those people.

1641
01:37:34,827 --> 01:37:36,787
You might be, well, they're poor enough.

1642
01:37:36,787 --> 01:37:38,387
They have fun staying poor.

1643
01:37:38,387 --> 01:37:39,387
They don't deserve it.

1644
01:37:39,387 --> 01:37:44,047
Because just by virtue of being not poor, not wealthy enough.

1645
01:37:44,047 --> 01:37:46,547
The second thing is you have to be technically capable enough.

1646
01:37:46,547 --> 01:37:49,727
And because it's only 12 words, it's easy to store.

1647
01:37:49,727 --> 01:37:53,707
But again, check your technical acumen privilege.

1648
01:37:53,707 --> 01:37:58,867
Because there are many people who will find it very difficult to secure 12 words and find

1649
01:37:58,867 --> 01:38:02,227
it just, they just will.

1650
01:38:02,227 --> 01:38:03,827
And this took me a while to see.

1651
01:38:03,827 --> 01:38:07,467
But after doing it again and again and again with people, and people forgetting 12 words

1652
01:38:07,467 --> 01:38:11,547
again and again and again, after being told and after carefully storing it, you realize

1653
01:38:11,547 --> 01:38:17,067
actually is not an easy task for many people to do so it doesn't matter how fancy and simple to use

1654
01:38:17,067 --> 01:38:25,067
your horror what is the 12 words just by itself is not an easy thing to do i i oversaw um training

1655
01:38:25,067 --> 01:38:31,707
sessions in el salvador by ibix micado where and as one of the people who are grading people where

1656
01:38:31,707 --> 01:38:37,067
they train these college students i mean um secondary school children and teenagers supposed

1657
01:38:37,067 --> 01:38:43,787
be the most tech savvy on how to back up and recover 12 words and we did a final exam and still

1658
01:38:43,787 --> 01:38:48,747
after going through the training i'll say 10 to 20 percent got it wrong on the backup and recovery

1659
01:38:48,747 --> 01:38:53,627
of 12 words and that's teenagers who are the most technically advanced and were trained

1660
01:38:53,627 --> 01:38:58,267
in a literally an academy for this so there's a big percentage of people who just find that

1661
01:38:58,267 --> 01:39:02,507
technically complicated and it just is what it is there's no commentary on them it's just

1662
01:39:02,507 --> 01:39:04,407
That's not the way they're wired.

1663
01:39:04,927 --> 01:39:06,647
So that's the second risk.

1664
01:39:06,847 --> 01:39:08,887
And the third is it's just scary.

1665
01:39:09,087 --> 01:39:10,227
It's taking risk.

1666
01:39:10,227 --> 01:39:25,267
The history of business and commerce is people are willing to buy convenience and sell their risk

1667
01:39:25,267 --> 01:39:31,407
or give away risk or reduce their risk for money.

1668
01:39:31,407 --> 01:39:37,107
almost all commerce is things that make my life easier and I'm paying for it

1669
01:39:37,107 --> 01:39:41,047
or things that reduce my risk and I pay for it.

1670
01:39:41,627 --> 01:39:45,267
And we spent hundreds of years inventing concepts like banks

1671
01:39:45,267 --> 01:39:49,027
because people want to give away the, they want to.

1672
01:39:49,207 --> 01:39:50,247
This is what the consumer wants.

1673
01:39:50,327 --> 01:39:51,407
If you actually look at the consumer,

1674
01:39:51,727 --> 01:39:54,327
they want to give away the risk of custody to someone else.

1675
01:39:54,447 --> 01:39:55,487
And they're willing to pay for it.

1676
01:39:55,547 --> 01:39:57,227
They want to give away the risk of,

1677
01:39:57,787 --> 01:39:59,747
and the complexity of custody to someone else.

1678
01:39:59,747 --> 01:40:02,647
and they're willing to pay for it.

1679
01:40:04,147 --> 01:40:04,927
And why?

1680
01:40:05,127 --> 01:40:06,647
Because, and this was something

1681
01:40:06,647 --> 01:40:07,827
that really hit home for me

1682
01:40:07,827 --> 01:40:11,927
when I was running the Bitcoin exchange

1683
01:40:11,927 --> 01:40:13,687
I ran in the UK for nearly a decade,

1684
01:40:14,227 --> 01:40:15,187
where one of the people

1685
01:40:15,187 --> 01:40:16,607
I was trying to get to self-custody

1686
01:40:16,607 --> 01:40:17,307
for a long time said,

1687
01:40:17,407 --> 01:40:19,227
look, I understand the need to self-custody,

1688
01:40:19,327 --> 01:40:20,907
but I trust you more than I trust myself.

1689
01:40:22,147 --> 01:40:23,527
And because now,

1690
01:40:23,907 --> 01:40:26,887
the other side of the coin though,

1691
01:40:27,307 --> 01:40:28,287
no pun intended,

1692
01:40:28,287 --> 01:40:35,927
is just on that. That could be their miscalculating risk. Like they, because you were a private

1693
01:40:35,927 --> 01:40:39,867
business in the UK, like they don't know the risk profile that you were taking. Like obviously you

1694
01:40:39,867 --> 01:40:44,087
ran a good business and maybe there wasn't very much risk there at all, but like they have no way

1695
01:40:44,087 --> 01:40:48,587
of actually accurately calculating the risk of leaving Bitcoin with you. It doesn't matter whether

1696
01:40:48,587 --> 01:40:55,067
they are able to accurately calculate the risk or not. It's their perception is, and the perception

1697
01:40:55,067 --> 01:41:02,107
of most people is that it's safer to hold their money in a bank than to hold their money underneath

1698
01:41:02,107 --> 01:41:07,087
their pillow in the house. That's the general perception of most people. And that was a

1699
01:41:07,087 --> 01:41:11,847
perception 10 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago. People have that general perception.

1700
01:41:12,507 --> 01:41:16,827
Is that accurate or not? We can discuss it as the cows come home, but it doesn't really matter.

1701
01:41:17,007 --> 01:41:22,487
What matters is what motivates their action and their action. People are voting. They're holding

1702
01:41:22,487 --> 01:41:28,167
their money. They're going the opposite direction. Right now, they're holding not only are they

1703
01:41:28,167 --> 01:41:35,707
holding it on a Coinbase or a Cash App or a Strike or so on. They're going further. They're

1704
01:41:35,707 --> 01:41:39,507
holding on ETFs and they're going further. They're actually giving up titles to their Bitcoin.

1705
01:41:39,987 --> 01:41:45,947
They're not even buying a Bitcoin. They're holding things like strategy, which have some relation

1706
01:41:45,947 --> 01:41:51,767
to Bitcoin. So they're going way up the curve. Their actions are telling you what they're doing.

1707
01:41:51,767 --> 01:42:06,694
And you see that happening in the global South as well So we don need to debate We can look at this is what users are asking for Why is the question Because they perceive the risk and they want to and risk is

1708
01:42:06,694 --> 01:42:12,614
something that people are willing to and want to reduce in their life. And so there's a risk around

1709
01:42:12,614 --> 01:42:18,334
custody. And the risk is if I make a mistake, I go from 100% ownership of my money to zero

1710
01:42:18,334 --> 01:42:26,254
instantly now there's another risk and bitcoin and the internet and social media have have

1711
01:42:26,254 --> 01:42:31,034
increased in the social awareness of the average person and this is the really new new thing

1712
01:42:31,034 --> 01:42:37,074
the percept the the risk of slowly having your money debased over time you went back 10 20 years

1713
01:42:37,074 --> 01:42:41,614
ago people were no did not did not talk about it didn't understand it 10 years ago a few crazies

1714
01:42:41,614 --> 01:42:47,114
understood that five more now and it's even governments didn't understand this really they

1715
01:42:47,114 --> 01:42:52,094
thought, well, our money's bad, but the US dollar's good. And now you're seeing, as of a few months

1716
01:42:52,094 --> 01:42:59,414
ago, a month ago, gold, the amount of gold being held by nation states has overtaken the amount of

1717
01:42:59,414 --> 01:43:06,314
US treasuries being held for the first time since 1996. So that means governments are moving to

1718
01:43:06,314 --> 01:43:13,874
their government level hard money. Problem is you need tanks and bank bolts and so on to custody that.

1719
01:43:13,874 --> 01:43:17,094
Governments can do that. The average person can't. But the average person is obviously going to go

1720
01:43:17,094 --> 01:43:22,594
to Bitcoin. And why? Because we're all understanding the zeitgeist has moved,

1721
01:43:22,674 --> 01:43:27,894
the Overton windows moved, and people are all understanding that there is this risk around

1722
01:43:27,894 --> 01:43:33,754
inflation, which is the risk, a different risk, the risk of slowly using two, five, 10, 20% of

1723
01:43:33,754 --> 01:43:40,054
your money every year. But that's a different risk, which now that people understand for the

1724
01:43:40,054 --> 01:43:45,834
first time, they want to reduce that risk as well. But what you're telling them is you've got a

1725
01:43:45,834 --> 01:43:55,634
choice. Either take this risk of losing 5%, 10% of your money every year, or you must self-custody,

1726
01:43:55,674 --> 01:44:02,314
in which case you must take the other risk of losing 100% overnight from a mistake. And anything

1727
01:44:02,314 --> 01:44:07,954
in the middle is not a good option. Therefore, it's the same as taking, and I'm educating it,

1728
01:44:07,954 --> 01:44:13,694
it's the same as taking the 10%, 20% risk. Now, let's put it into a different technology. Instead

1729
01:44:13,694 --> 01:44:18,554
the technology of moving value, the technology of moving humans, transportation.

1730
01:44:19,654 --> 01:44:19,774
Yeah.

1731
01:44:20,474 --> 01:44:28,474
Now, there is mass corporate-owned, government-owned transportation, equivalent to mass corporate-owned,

1732
01:44:28,474 --> 01:44:32,874
government-owned custody, which is trains and buses.

1733
01:44:33,434 --> 01:44:43,594
And then there is true self-determined transportation, which would be not just

1734
01:44:43,594 --> 01:44:49,774
the ownership of a car, but it would be the repair, the building and repair and fixing

1735
01:44:49,774 --> 01:44:53,554
of the car yourself, not relying on any third party.

1736
01:44:55,374 --> 01:44:58,814
So that is true self-ownership of transportation.

1737
01:44:59,294 --> 01:45:03,594
Then you can have community ownership where you own the car, but when you need to fix something

1738
01:45:03,594 --> 01:45:05,034
or service something, you don't do it yourself.

1739
01:45:05,114 --> 01:45:06,634
You use your local mechanic.

1740
01:45:08,434 --> 01:45:13,134
If you were to translate the self-conspiracy mindset to Bitcoin, as you'll say,

1741
01:45:13,134 --> 01:45:20,994
that form of honing a car is no different to using trains and buses. And if you're not fixing

1742
01:45:20,994 --> 01:45:25,954
it yourself and running yourself, it's bullshit. And it's basically, you're relying on a third

1743
01:45:25,954 --> 01:45:29,934
party. Therefore, it is basically the same. So you might as well do the other thing. There is no

1744
01:45:29,934 --> 01:45:36,114
difference. If you had that mindset, how many people on the road do you think could be driving

1745
01:45:36,114 --> 01:45:41,794
right now? Very few. Very few. It will always remain a niche because it's way more expensive.

1746
01:45:41,794 --> 01:45:45,254
I will not trust my car to go at 80 miles an hour

1747
01:45:45,254 --> 01:45:46,134
if I fix it myself.

1748
01:45:46,294 --> 01:45:47,434
The average person won't trust that.

1749
01:45:47,514 --> 01:45:47,834
Do you know what?

1750
01:45:47,834 --> 01:45:49,274
I do think there's something else in that though.

1751
01:45:49,354 --> 01:45:51,434
Like if we did have to do this

1752
01:45:51,434 --> 01:45:52,534
and we had to fix our own cars,

1753
01:45:52,634 --> 01:45:54,134
you would learn to fix your own car.

1754
01:45:54,254 --> 01:45:56,074
And you would know you'd be dead, most likely.

1755
01:45:56,714 --> 01:45:58,834
Because you'll be going at 80 miles an hour,

1756
01:45:58,954 --> 01:46:00,314
we all come off and you will die.

1757
01:46:00,974 --> 01:46:03,634
Because, I mean, maybe it won't.

1758
01:46:03,834 --> 01:46:06,334
But your perception is that's, for many people,

1759
01:46:06,954 --> 01:46:09,334
the perception is that that will be a big, big risk for me.

1760
01:46:09,394 --> 01:46:10,094
I'm not handy.

1761
01:46:10,094 --> 01:46:14,674
I don't feel comfortable repairing my own car because if I get it wrong, I die.

1762
01:46:15,194 --> 01:46:20,174
So that perception of risk will make me go off and stick to using buses.

1763
01:46:20,874 --> 01:46:26,094
If you're telling me that this other one isn't a real option, which is, by the way, the biggest market for transportation,

1764
01:46:26,334 --> 01:46:36,874
most people believe that they have private ownership of a car, but they use their community of insurance companies and mechanics to make it viable.

1765
01:46:36,874 --> 01:46:38,534
and they've outsourced that,

1766
01:46:38,854 --> 01:46:40,654
but they don't conceptually,

1767
01:46:40,774 --> 01:46:42,454
and they're not lambasted for saying

1768
01:46:42,454 --> 01:46:44,694
that doesn't really count as private ownership of a car.

1769
01:46:44,914 --> 01:46:45,734
See, I-

1770
01:46:45,734 --> 01:46:47,714
And I think we'll never get to a point

1771
01:46:47,714 --> 01:46:49,834
where that niche of people who fix and repair themselves

1772
01:46:49,834 --> 01:46:51,614
will ever be anything more than a niche.

1773
01:46:51,774 --> 01:46:52,894
It should be allowed to exist,

1774
01:46:53,014 --> 01:46:54,374
and it's great that it exists,

1775
01:46:55,034 --> 01:46:57,334
but it will not be the norm for most people.

1776
01:46:57,734 --> 01:47:00,554
And there will never be a point that it's a norm.

1777
01:47:00,594 --> 01:47:01,994
And no one's stopping you from doing it,

1778
01:47:02,014 --> 01:47:03,214
but people just don't want it

1779
01:47:03,214 --> 01:47:04,814
because it's risky, expensive,

1780
01:47:04,814 --> 01:47:08,174
and it's technically complex.

1781
01:47:08,334 --> 01:47:09,674
See, I would never lambast anyone

1782
01:47:09,674 --> 01:47:10,814
for using something like Fediment

1783
01:47:10,814 --> 01:47:12,074
to hold their Bitcoin.

1784
01:47:12,454 --> 01:47:13,194
But many people do.

1785
01:47:13,734 --> 01:47:15,754
But at the same time,

1786
01:47:15,754 --> 01:47:16,814
I would never put all my money

1787
01:47:16,814 --> 01:47:18,074
into like a Fediment

1788
01:47:18,074 --> 01:47:19,734
because like I don't know

1789
01:47:19,734 --> 01:47:21,334
that these tools have been proven out yet

1790
01:47:21,334 --> 01:47:22,914
to handle larger amounts of money.

1791
01:47:22,914 --> 01:47:23,394
Yeah, but you will.

1792
01:47:23,474 --> 01:47:24,094
But people will.

1793
01:47:24,314 --> 01:47:24,834
And people do.

1794
01:47:24,894 --> 01:47:25,194
Potentially.

1795
01:47:25,534 --> 01:47:27,414
No, but this is the difference.

1796
01:47:27,654 --> 01:47:28,734
Because we've been building it

1797
01:47:28,734 --> 01:47:29,874
over two, three, four years

1798
01:47:29,874 --> 01:47:31,854
and we've tested it and battled hard on it,

1799
01:47:31,874 --> 01:47:32,914
there are people who are storing

1800
01:47:32,914 --> 01:47:34,134
millions of dollars in these things.

1801
01:47:34,134 --> 01:47:36,174
That's the difference, because it's not like a project

1802
01:47:36,174 --> 01:47:37,674
where people are working on.

1803
01:47:37,674 --> 01:47:42,174
It's being worked on in very, very difficult environments.

1804
01:47:42,174 --> 01:47:44,714
And this is not just hyperbole.

1805
01:47:44,714 --> 01:47:47,674
People are storing millions of dollars on these things right now,

1806
01:47:47,674 --> 01:47:50,054
and they're relying on it, and they're holding all of their wealth,

1807
01:47:50,054 --> 01:47:51,914
or a big percentage, right now.

1808
01:47:51,914 --> 01:47:55,894
Because the alternative will be, for them, not self-custody.

1809
01:47:55,894 --> 01:47:59,894
The alternative will be to hold it all with a corporate custody.

1810
01:47:59,894 --> 01:48:02,434
And that's also trusting a third party that you don't know.

1811
01:48:02,434 --> 01:48:05,594
And look at the history of corporate custody.

1812
01:48:06,094 --> 01:48:07,614
Many have lost all...

1813
01:48:07,614 --> 01:48:08,854
If you ask corporate custody,

1814
01:48:08,894 --> 01:48:10,574
why would you trust Kraken or Coinbase?

1815
01:48:11,114 --> 01:48:14,394
When Mt. Gox was just as trustworthy at the time,

1816
01:48:15,874 --> 01:48:18,394
Quadriga CX was incredibly trustworthy at the time.

1817
01:48:18,714 --> 01:48:20,914
The history of very trustworthy sites at the time

1818
01:48:20,914 --> 01:48:22,014
had then lost everything,

1819
01:48:22,294 --> 01:48:23,734
but the users thought they were trustworthy

1820
01:48:23,734 --> 01:48:25,294
is very, very long.

1821
01:48:25,994 --> 01:48:27,394
I don't want to like...

1822
01:48:27,394 --> 01:48:29,574
But people put all the largest of their wealth

1823
01:48:29,574 --> 01:48:30,654
in those right now.

1824
01:48:30,774 --> 01:48:31,634
So a few things.

1825
01:48:31,634 --> 01:48:36,774
I don't think that Quadriga or Mt. Gox were as trusted as things like Coinbase and Kraken today.

1826
01:48:37,114 --> 01:48:38,674
I still don't think people should trust them.

1827
01:48:39,074 --> 01:48:42,494
But I do, like, maybe it's because I'm a Bitcoiner.

1828
01:48:42,574 --> 01:48:47,414
Like, I would feel way more uncomfortable having a large amount of my money in a Fediment at this point.

1829
01:48:47,574 --> 01:48:49,614
And, like, maybe my perception will change over time.

1830
01:48:49,634 --> 01:48:50,134
I don't know.

1831
01:48:50,214 --> 01:48:51,714
Than me self-custodying that Bitcoin.

1832
01:48:51,974 --> 01:48:52,894
Yeah, no, of course you would.

1833
01:48:52,894 --> 01:48:59,874
And if there's, like, three, the three things you went through are, like, cost, technical ability, and risk.

1834
01:49:00,114 --> 01:49:00,394
Risk.

1835
01:49:00,394 --> 01:49:01,574
Risk being the biggest.

1836
01:49:01,634 --> 01:49:03,734
Things are being vastly improved upon.

1837
01:49:03,854 --> 01:49:05,834
Like cost, I think you can kind of ignore cost in a lot of ways

1838
01:49:05,834 --> 01:49:08,354
because if you do have the money, then cost isn't a prohibitive thing.

1839
01:49:08,514 --> 01:49:12,894
So like I understand maybe people who have $50 of Bitcoin,

1840
01:49:13,074 --> 01:49:14,234
they're not going to go out and buy a hardware wallet.

1841
01:49:14,314 --> 01:49:16,634
But I think for $50 of Bitcoin, you don't really need a hardware wallet.

1842
01:49:16,874 --> 01:49:18,254
But if you have like multiple thousands,

1843
01:49:18,454 --> 01:49:20,514
like maybe it's worth paying attention to.

1844
01:49:20,934 --> 01:49:24,194
And then when it comes down to like, what was the second one?

1845
01:49:24,214 --> 01:49:24,834
Technical ability.

1846
01:49:24,974 --> 01:49:26,654
I think things like Bitki are doing a really good job.

1847
01:49:26,794 --> 01:49:29,134
Like cold cards are amazing and people should use them

1848
01:49:29,134 --> 01:49:30,094
and people should learn about them.

1849
01:49:30,094 --> 01:49:32,534
and you should continue to learn on this trajectory.

1850
01:49:32,774 --> 01:49:36,794
But as an entry point, BitKey takes away so much of that headache

1851
01:49:36,794 --> 01:49:38,474
in the sense that it's just a fingerprint.

1852
01:49:38,734 --> 01:49:40,494
It's on your app. It's really easy to set up.

1853
01:49:40,854 --> 01:49:42,374
You don't need to worry about seed words.

1854
01:49:42,774 --> 01:49:44,974
And then on the risk side, if you want to go further out,

1855
01:49:45,394 --> 01:49:47,374
and again, you have to have a certain amount of money to do this,

1856
01:49:47,434 --> 01:49:49,134
but if you want to use something like AnchorWatch

1857
01:49:49,134 --> 01:49:51,114
where you have insured collaborative custody,

1858
01:49:51,634 --> 01:49:54,854
that then removes risk because even if you and AnchorWatch

1859
01:49:54,854 --> 01:49:57,654
fuck up some magical way or there's a wrench attack

1860
01:49:57,654 --> 01:49:59,074
and you need to send Bitcoin to someone,

1861
01:49:59,074 --> 01:50:00,834
so you authorize a transaction,

1862
01:50:01,294 --> 01:50:04,854
you are then backed by the Lloyds of London Insurance.

1863
01:50:05,734 --> 01:50:07,234
So I think these tools are being built out.

1864
01:50:07,274 --> 01:50:08,934
And I think Fediman will be one of these tools.

1865
01:50:08,934 --> 01:50:10,274
No, no, these tools are being built up.

1866
01:50:10,314 --> 01:50:11,374
If you look at those tools,

1867
01:50:12,834 --> 01:50:15,574
all those tools are available to people

1868
01:50:15,574 --> 01:50:16,914
with a certain amount of wealth.

1869
01:50:17,034 --> 01:50:18,134
And as the tools get better,

1870
01:50:18,234 --> 01:50:19,834
the wealth levels have to increase.

1871
01:50:20,134 --> 01:50:22,394
So yes, they will exist,

1872
01:50:22,594 --> 01:50:24,454
but they will not get down to the price

1873
01:50:24,454 --> 01:50:25,814
where an anchor watch is available

1874
01:50:25,814 --> 01:50:28,094
to a billion people in the global South.

1875
01:50:28,154 --> 01:50:28,934
It's just not going to happen.

1876
01:50:29,074 --> 01:50:32,794
Totally. And that's why I think- And you also said $50, but $50 excludes

1877
01:50:32,794 --> 01:50:36,134
billions of people. I mean, yeah. And Vicky's more expensive than that.

1878
01:50:36,134 --> 01:50:38,594
Yeah, but it excludes billions of people, straight out $50.

1879
01:50:38,874 --> 01:50:43,134
Totally. So you're saying these things,

1880
01:50:43,374 --> 01:50:47,834
but you're talking from a position of being the minority. So for the minority,

1881
01:50:48,994 --> 01:50:53,814
and that's what I said, the minority will only always be the minority who's able to self-custody

1882
01:50:53,814 --> 01:50:59,014
purely for monetary reasons, technical reasons, and risk reasons. It will always be the minority.

1883
01:50:59,074 --> 01:51:09,074
Those things won't get down to the point where 8 billion people will be able to have insurance with Anchor Watch and will be able to afford a hardware wallet.

1884
01:51:09,074 --> 01:51:22,522
It just maybe we can get to half a billion And that great And I have no problem with if we get to there But the reality is we will not get to the other billion

1885
01:51:23,322 --> 01:51:27,402
Then we'll have to have some sort of collaborative shared custody model.

1886
01:51:27,622 --> 01:51:30,062
That shared custody model to share the costs.

1887
01:51:30,382 --> 01:51:33,242
And also it shares the technical complexity

1888
01:51:33,242 --> 01:51:36,662
because more technical people within that group of people

1889
01:51:36,662 --> 01:51:38,842
can take on the technical burden.

1890
01:51:39,642 --> 01:51:41,362
Maybe for compensation for capital.

1891
01:51:41,742 --> 01:51:45,722
And then finally, it shares the risks because the risks can be shared around as well.

1892
01:51:45,962 --> 01:51:49,162
And that is going to be the situation for most people.

1893
01:51:49,262 --> 01:51:49,982
Now, we have a choice.

1894
01:51:50,442 --> 01:51:58,822
Are those people going to do that using public or governmental public custody, which puts

1895
01:51:58,822 --> 01:52:03,982
them at the risk of the other risk that they become aware of, which is inflation, capture,

1896
01:52:04,162 --> 01:52:04,482
et cetera?

1897
01:52:05,102 --> 01:52:07,182
Or are they going to use private custody?

1898
01:52:07,682 --> 01:52:08,562
And that's my point.

1899
01:52:08,562 --> 01:52:17,582
And I'm not going, the market for people who want to fix the kit car market for Bitcoin,

1900
01:52:18,082 --> 01:52:19,982
that market will always exist.

1901
01:52:20,282 --> 01:52:26,822
I used to actually have a kit car before and I liked fixing and tinkering around with cars

1902
01:52:26,822 --> 01:52:30,562
back in the day when I had a car addiction.

1903
01:52:31,422 --> 01:52:34,462
So that market will always exist and it should be allowed to exist.

1904
01:52:34,462 --> 01:52:43,702
But if the kit car market dictated the world market for cars, then we would all be either

1905
01:52:43,702 --> 01:52:46,542
using kit cars and probably twice as many be using kit cars.

1906
01:52:46,802 --> 01:52:48,982
And then everyone else would be using public transportation.

1907
01:52:49,222 --> 01:52:50,442
And it wouldn't be normal cars.

1908
01:52:51,002 --> 01:52:54,002
And what I'm saying is, but we don't live in that world.

1909
01:52:54,622 --> 01:52:59,902
And so in our world, the kit car market is still healthy and it's still going strong.

1910
01:52:59,902 --> 01:53:04,762
but the majority of people are driving cars or motorbikes,

1911
01:53:05,002 --> 01:53:07,922
and they are getting them serviced by third parties.

1912
01:53:08,182 --> 01:53:10,362
And they still see it as private custody

1913
01:53:10,362 --> 01:53:12,362
because it's still owned in a private way

1914
01:53:12,362 --> 01:53:15,382
or amongst a private set of people versus corporate custody.

1915
01:53:15,682 --> 01:53:17,162
And the risk here is,

1916
01:53:17,842 --> 01:53:19,442
and this comes back to your original question,

1917
01:53:19,802 --> 01:53:21,542
I don't know, but in a scenario

1918
01:53:21,542 --> 01:53:27,122
where the control of money starts being weakened,

1919
01:53:27,602 --> 01:53:28,762
money starts being weakened,

1920
01:53:28,762 --> 01:53:33,742
And more and more people are talking about the risk that at some point, corporates will

1921
01:53:33,742 --> 01:53:37,082
be impelled or compelled to close access to money.

1922
01:53:37,342 --> 01:53:42,682
And then the question is, would something like a BitKey still be able to operate in

1923
01:53:42,682 --> 01:53:43,202
that environment?

1924
01:53:43,622 --> 01:53:49,362
If the device, because they could be asked to add functionality to that device, for example,

1925
01:53:49,682 --> 01:53:53,302
they could, the third key is owned by a corporate institution.

1926
01:53:53,302 --> 01:53:55,782
So they could be compelled to do something as well.

1927
01:53:55,782 --> 01:53:58,422
But they couldn't do anything with your Bitcoin, like with that single key.

1928
01:53:58,422 --> 01:54:04,202
But it could stop operating, and that could be very painful for people who have no place to move it to.

1929
01:54:04,902 --> 01:54:11,422
If no updates could happen for the software, if the hardware could be remotely bricked, et cetera,

1930
01:54:11,982 --> 01:54:18,182
if the service that provides the third key had to be taken offline, then where are you?

1931
01:54:18,322 --> 01:54:19,482
Well, the third key doesn't matter.

1932
01:54:19,822 --> 01:54:25,802
If they could remotely break the device, I mean, I wholeheartedly believe that that will not be a function.

1933
01:54:25,802 --> 01:54:28,442
I mean, well, it needs to have software updates.

1934
01:54:28,642 --> 01:54:30,522
They could stop, at the very least.

1935
01:54:30,802 --> 01:54:32,082
Why does it need to have software updates?

1936
01:54:32,322 --> 01:54:34,722
Because software, because all systems have bugs.

1937
01:54:34,922 --> 01:54:37,522
Yeah, but what I'm saying is, like, in this, like, disaster scenario

1938
01:54:37,522 --> 01:54:41,122
where they crack down on block and say you have to do something, like, you can-

1939
01:54:41,122 --> 01:54:42,122
I don't think you-

1940
01:54:42,122 --> 01:54:43,562
It could continue to operate.

1941
01:54:43,702 --> 01:54:44,522
And that's what's good about it.

1942
01:54:44,522 --> 01:54:45,502
You can get your Bitcoin off it.

1943
01:54:45,942 --> 01:54:46,582
Potentially, yes.

1944
01:54:46,602 --> 01:54:49,262
You should be able to get your Bitcoin off it if you haven't taken too long.

1945
01:54:49,622 --> 01:54:54,962
But as a corporate entity that's public, not private, it can be attacked.

1946
01:54:54,962 --> 01:55:04,982
And that's the point. The line should be between public corporate and private. So, for example,

1947
01:55:05,182 --> 01:55:11,182
if even these layer two solutions, if those layer two solutions are backed by large public

1948
01:55:11,182 --> 01:55:14,882
corporates and they're the ones running infrastructure, that still becomes a risk

1949
01:55:14,882 --> 01:55:21,362
because they're public corporates as opposed to private. So the line should be private custody,

1950
01:55:21,362 --> 01:55:24,622
held privately with privacy built in,

1951
01:55:24,862 --> 01:55:26,002
as opposed to held publicly

1952
01:55:26,002 --> 01:55:29,882
without any privacy by public corporates.

1953
01:55:30,302 --> 01:55:31,742
Because in that scenario,

1954
01:55:32,402 --> 01:55:33,722
it's public corporate, it has to,

1955
01:55:34,222 --> 01:55:37,522
it can be, to maintain the ability to have money

1956
01:55:37,522 --> 01:55:39,722
that you have self-determination from,

1957
01:55:40,162 --> 01:55:41,002
you need two things.

1958
01:55:41,342 --> 01:55:42,282
You need it to be decentralized

1959
01:55:42,282 --> 01:55:45,542
and you need it to be private.

1960
01:55:46,602 --> 01:55:47,682
You need to have privacy.

1961
01:55:47,822 --> 01:55:48,282
You need it too.

1962
01:55:48,702 --> 01:55:50,402
If I have privacy, but it's not decentralized,

1963
01:55:50,922 --> 01:55:52,982
Okay, I don't know what you're doing, but I can just turn you off.

1964
01:55:53,182 --> 01:55:53,342
Yeah.

1965
01:55:54,382 --> 01:56:01,782
And if I have no privacy, but I have decentralization, I can't turn you off, but I know exactly what you're doing.

1966
01:56:01,782 --> 01:56:03,542
So if you do something I don't like, I can still.

1967
01:56:03,942 --> 01:56:05,182
So you need the two.

1968
01:56:05,822 --> 01:56:08,842
And a public or a corporation cannot offer privacy.

1969
01:56:09,082 --> 01:56:10,362
They cannot offer privacy.

1970
01:56:10,562 --> 01:56:10,842
No, no.

1971
01:56:10,902 --> 01:56:15,862
So therefore, it fails in the initial objective of getting to a medium of exchange.

1972
01:56:15,862 --> 01:56:22,082
But the thing that I struggle with is this kind of like pushing the idea of self-custody being in any way a negative thing.

1973
01:56:22,162 --> 01:56:23,862
I like the idea of this all being a progression.

1974
01:56:23,862 --> 01:56:24,582
I've never said that.

1975
01:56:24,662 --> 01:56:25,162
No, you're misunderstanding.

1976
01:56:25,522 --> 01:56:25,722
Okay.

1977
01:56:25,922 --> 01:56:27,242
Well, I take that back.

1978
01:56:27,442 --> 01:56:31,962
But I like the idea of this being a progression where it's a little bit like what Mutiny did,

1979
01:56:32,042 --> 01:56:37,022
where if you had a small amount of Bitcoin in the Mutiny wallet, rip, it was Fetty Mint.

1980
01:56:37,362 --> 01:56:40,022
And then as it got more, you could sweep that into like a lightning balance.

1981
01:56:40,022 --> 01:56:44,922
And I think that kind of thing is nice, where it can go from Fetty Mint to self-custody

1982
01:56:44,922 --> 01:56:48,482
to then maybe buy a hardware wallet, maybe upgrade your hardware security and do multi-sig,

1983
01:56:48,502 --> 01:56:50,602
and then maybe you want to trust someone like Anchor Watch.

1984
01:56:50,662 --> 01:56:51,082
I don't know.

1985
01:56:51,642 --> 01:56:54,062
But I don't think it has to be one or the other.

1986
01:56:54,142 --> 01:57:00,182
And I agree that having money anywhere that is not a Coinbase-type corporate exchange,

1987
01:57:00,222 --> 01:57:02,182
I think that is going to be a step in the right direction.

1988
01:57:02,542 --> 01:57:05,742
I just think there's going to be, oh, it's not like a one-size-fits-all.

1989
01:57:05,802 --> 01:57:08,362
It's just going to be a thing, almost like a category.

1990
01:57:08,362 --> 01:57:11,102
Yeah, and I 100% agree with everything you've said there.

1991
01:57:11,262 --> 01:57:14,682
And if anything I've said suggests I think otherwise,

1992
01:57:15,382 --> 01:57:17,962
then you need to correct that.

1993
01:57:18,102 --> 01:57:18,582
And it's good.

1994
01:57:18,742 --> 01:57:22,782
The fact that you have that view suggests that you've got that impression

1995
01:57:22,782 --> 01:57:23,582
for what I've said.

1996
01:57:23,982 --> 01:57:24,982
And that's not the case.

1997
01:57:25,342 --> 01:57:26,382
It's definitely not either.

1998
01:57:26,382 --> 01:57:29,842
And as I said, we could have a world with half a billion people using it.

1999
01:57:29,862 --> 01:57:33,222
It doesn't sound like it's a bad thing.

2000
01:57:33,462 --> 01:57:37,622
And also, I said that just like with cars, I used to tinker with kit cars.

2001
01:57:37,622 --> 01:57:39,222
I self-custody myself.

2002
01:57:39,462 --> 01:57:42,182
So why would I do that if I think it's a net bad thing?

2003
01:57:42,462 --> 01:57:43,322
I don't.

2004
01:57:43,482 --> 01:57:45,882
But I'm also just being realistic.

2005
01:57:46,842 --> 01:57:51,082
And again, for the people who want to go through the progression

2006
01:57:51,082 --> 01:57:54,722
and have built up enough wealth for it to make sense

2007
01:57:54,722 --> 01:57:59,722
and are comfortable with the risk of losing their Bitcoin

2008
01:57:59,722 --> 01:58:05,562
and that they feel that they are just mentally and emotionally

2009
01:58:05,562 --> 01:58:09,762
and just their personality is they are considered and careful people.

2010
01:58:09,902 --> 01:58:12,942
Because many people in the world are not careful people.

2011
01:58:12,942 --> 01:58:17,002
But if they determine that they are a careful person

2012
01:58:17,002 --> 01:58:20,362
who measures twice, cuts once, and that sort of person,

2013
01:58:20,762 --> 01:58:23,762
and they also determine that they're technically comfortable enough

2014
01:58:23,762 --> 01:58:25,662
to upgrade software and so on,

2015
01:58:26,162 --> 01:58:30,342
and if necessary, move over to open source software in the worst case,

2016
01:58:30,782 --> 01:58:33,582
and if also it makes monetary sense to them,

2017
01:58:33,582 --> 01:58:35,562
They should definitely do it.

2018
01:58:35,742 --> 01:58:40,162
I'm just saying that that will always be a minority of people.

2019
01:58:40,322 --> 01:58:40,502
Yeah.

2020
01:58:40,782 --> 01:58:47,162
Unless wholesale people change to be all very reliable, very considered people.

2021
01:58:47,542 --> 01:58:50,182
They all change to be not messy and so on.

2022
01:58:50,422 --> 01:58:56,222
They all change to be all aptly enough to be able to spend $50 without thinking about it.

2023
01:58:56,562 --> 01:58:59,022
And they all change to be technically competent.

2024
01:58:59,322 --> 01:59:00,922
And I just don't think that's a realistic answer.

2025
01:59:00,922 --> 01:59:02,922
So there will always be a number of people who will never make it.

2026
01:59:02,922 --> 01:59:05,722
the majority to that Nirvana state.

2027
01:59:05,822 --> 01:59:06,282
That's fair.

2028
01:59:06,322 --> 01:59:07,282
That's the point I'm trying to say.

2029
01:59:07,542 --> 01:59:08,582
I agree with,

2030
01:59:08,822 --> 01:59:10,522
I actually agree with everything you're saying, I think.

2031
01:59:10,622 --> 01:59:11,542
I just think,

2032
01:59:12,482 --> 01:59:14,862
I do think it's important to push people to self-custody.

2033
01:59:15,302 --> 01:59:17,822
I think doing it in a careful, measured way

2034
01:59:17,822 --> 01:59:19,262
is always going to be the right decision.

2035
01:59:19,542 --> 01:59:20,662
And maybe that starts with Fettyman,

2036
01:59:20,782 --> 01:59:21,602
maybe it moves on.

2037
01:59:22,022 --> 01:59:23,762
But one of the things that I do have

2038
01:59:23,762 --> 01:59:28,782
a slight skepticism about

2039
01:59:28,782 --> 01:59:31,862
is the idea of pushing people to multi-sig too soon.

2040
01:59:31,862 --> 01:59:34,682
because I think multi-sig is great.

2041
01:59:34,822 --> 01:59:35,482
I use multi-sig,

2042
01:59:35,582 --> 01:59:38,882
but like DIY multi-sig is adding complexity

2043
01:59:38,882 --> 01:59:40,842
and risk to people that I don't know

2044
01:59:40,842 --> 01:59:42,422
if they fully acknowledge

2045
01:59:42,422 --> 01:59:44,602
how much additional complexity there is in that.

2046
01:59:44,842 --> 01:59:46,502
Like I think single-sig hardware wallets

2047
01:59:46,502 --> 01:59:48,602
are still for the vast majority of people,

2048
01:59:48,702 --> 01:59:50,082
probably the way to custody Bitcoin.

2049
01:59:51,242 --> 01:59:54,742
You're talking about personal custody.

2050
01:59:54,742 --> 01:59:57,882
And I mean, very specifically like DIY multi-sig.

2051
01:59:57,882 --> 02:00:10,322
Yeah, I think for personal custody, DIY multi-sig can be done wrong because it's technically complex, as I said.

2052
02:00:10,322 --> 02:00:30,062
And, but to your point before, I do think that suggesting that it's a good end state if you can do it, which is self-custody, is a great way to go.

2053
02:00:30,342 --> 02:00:41,049
But then if you take that logically further you should say then the best end state should be self with multisig That is the best end state

2054
02:00:41,149 --> 02:00:42,769
But just like you have an uncomfort,

2055
02:00:42,869 --> 02:00:43,949
because you've just hit your,

2056
02:00:44,349 --> 02:00:45,649
what you're basically saying is,

2057
02:00:45,769 --> 02:00:48,769
I've hit my technical wall,

2058
02:00:48,989 --> 02:00:51,109
and therefore now I feel uncomfortable to go further.

2059
02:00:51,189 --> 02:00:52,229
This isn't like,

2060
02:00:52,429 --> 02:00:54,589
I'm not necessarily talking about me specifically here.

2061
02:00:54,649 --> 02:00:56,349
I'm talking about...

2062
02:00:56,349 --> 02:00:57,269
But what is the fear?

2063
02:00:57,329 --> 02:00:58,889
The fear is that people will make mistakes

2064
02:00:58,889 --> 02:00:59,609
and lose their money.

2065
02:00:59,749 --> 02:00:59,889
Yeah.

2066
02:00:59,889 --> 02:01:01,949
But the same thing will happen in self-custody.

2067
02:01:03,429 --> 02:01:04,549
It's the same line.

2068
02:01:05,209 --> 02:01:08,429
You've just drawn a line at a different place saying,

2069
02:01:09,049 --> 02:01:10,929
this is good enough, but further,

2070
02:01:11,209 --> 02:01:12,389
because you can go further again.

2071
02:01:12,549 --> 02:01:15,549
It's DIY multi-sig using your own hardware,

2072
02:01:15,929 --> 02:01:19,569
where you've taken the parts

2073
02:01:19,569 --> 02:01:20,969
and built your own machines yourself

2074
02:01:20,969 --> 02:01:22,389
and don't use hardware wallets

2075
02:01:22,389 --> 02:01:23,449
because how do I trust them?

2076
02:01:23,789 --> 02:01:24,649
That could be another line.

2077
02:01:24,749 --> 02:01:26,569
Or it could be, I only use machines

2078
02:01:26,569 --> 02:01:28,009
that are older than 15 years old

2079
02:01:28,009 --> 02:01:28,989
before Bitcoin was invented

2080
02:01:28,989 --> 02:01:31,129
and I build my, you can take it even further.

2081
02:01:31,249 --> 02:01:31,409
Yeah.

2082
02:01:31,629 --> 02:01:33,089
So, but I'm just thinking.

2083
02:01:33,369 --> 02:01:34,069
No, that's what I mean.

2084
02:01:34,129 --> 02:01:36,069
I am agreeing with you there that I do think

2085
02:01:36,069 --> 02:01:39,689
it's very easy to jump into a very technical setup

2086
02:01:39,689 --> 02:01:41,929
that like if push came to shove

2087
02:01:41,929 --> 02:01:43,509
and you needed to recover that Bitcoin,

2088
02:01:43,689 --> 02:01:45,289
like are you going to be technically competent

2089
02:01:45,289 --> 02:01:46,469
enough to do it?

2090
02:01:47,189 --> 02:01:48,469
And I think for the majority of you

2091
02:01:48,469 --> 02:01:51,109
that that line is not self-custody.

2092
02:01:51,549 --> 02:01:54,489
The technical setup is just the beginning of self-custody.

2093
02:01:55,049 --> 02:01:57,529
Even a bit key, you're at the point

2094
02:01:57,529 --> 02:01:59,189
where it's beyond most people.

2095
02:01:59,709 --> 02:02:00,909
That's, I guess, my point.

2096
02:02:01,249 --> 02:02:02,209
But yes, you're right.

2097
02:02:02,329 --> 02:02:05,369
Multi-sig of the niche,

2098
02:02:05,689 --> 02:02:07,309
of the minority of people

2099
02:02:07,309 --> 02:02:09,489
who can comfortably self-custody.

2100
02:02:09,789 --> 02:02:11,489
And by the way, that's a much smaller set

2101
02:02:11,489 --> 02:02:13,369
than the people who are self-custody.

2102
02:02:13,589 --> 02:02:14,529
This is the thing.

2103
02:02:14,609 --> 02:02:16,869
This is what I mean by pushing too much.

2104
02:02:17,249 --> 02:02:19,649
Right now, I would say, from my experience,

2105
02:02:19,789 --> 02:02:22,629
from talking to people in CoinFloor

2106
02:02:22,629 --> 02:02:23,989
and looking at it more recently,

2107
02:02:24,789 --> 02:02:27,269
I would say, again,

2108
02:02:27,269 --> 02:02:31,829
I can't know this for sure. My gut thing is that the majority of people who are self-custodying

2109
02:02:31,829 --> 02:02:37,429
single SIG with hardware wallets should not be self-custodying because they're not doing it safely

2110
02:02:37,429 --> 02:02:41,909
and they are a huge risk of losing their money. We need to do more podcasts.

2111
02:02:41,909 --> 02:02:46,469
Because they were pushed too early to self-custody before they were actually ready.

2112
02:02:46,469 --> 02:02:52,229
And they just got the thing and they were given a one tutorial. They've now got a hardware wallet

2113
02:02:52,229 --> 02:02:59,369
and their private key is their 12 words is they don't test it regularly.

2114
02:03:00,149 --> 02:03:02,009
They don't, their private key,

2115
02:03:02,189 --> 02:03:05,309
are they checking that the backup has been compromised regularly?

2116
02:03:06,529 --> 02:03:09,229
Are they doing any of this stuff?

2117
02:03:09,429 --> 02:03:11,049
I can guarantee you the majority of people

2118
02:03:11,049 --> 02:03:13,269
aren't doing the things they need to maintain sanity.

2119
02:03:13,269 --> 02:03:16,329
With a car, it's like having a car.

2120
02:03:16,669 --> 02:03:18,269
I like to put it into things like cars

2121
02:03:18,889 --> 02:03:21,989
because people can have an intuitive understanding of this.

2122
02:03:21,989 --> 02:03:23,989
Imagine you had a card that you never did an AMOT.

2123
02:03:24,209 --> 02:03:25,369
You never checked it yearly.

2124
02:03:26,289 --> 02:03:29,569
After 10, 20 years, you then use it.

2125
02:03:30,189 --> 02:03:34,929
What do you think is the chance that it's going to break down or have a crash and put you and your family in danger?

2126
02:03:35,169 --> 02:03:35,909
Very high.

2127
02:03:36,389 --> 02:03:45,849
How many people do you think now with self-custody, how many people do you think are regularly every three months checking their wallets to make sure the transactions still work?

2128
02:03:45,849 --> 02:03:50,669
and the SSD card on their hardware wallet hasn't been corrupted

2129
02:03:50,669 --> 02:03:53,669
and their backups haven't been waterlogged

2130
02:03:53,669 --> 02:03:55,489
because they've kept it under the sink.

2131
02:03:55,709 --> 02:03:56,429
How many people are doing that?

2132
02:03:56,489 --> 02:03:57,449
Yeah, very few.

2133
02:03:57,929 --> 02:04:02,449
So that means they're not yet responsible enough right now to custody.

2134
02:04:02,749 --> 02:04:05,749
And by being forced and convinced to do it now,

2135
02:04:06,069 --> 02:04:07,509
you've put them at risk.

2136
02:04:07,669 --> 02:04:08,869
If you haven't done it properly,

2137
02:04:10,309 --> 02:04:11,609
my father used to say,

2138
02:04:11,649 --> 02:04:13,509
if it's worth doing a job, it's worth doing it properly.

2139
02:04:13,709 --> 02:04:15,669
Just giving people a quick training

2140
02:04:15,669 --> 02:04:19,809
and they're not following through and checking on them every day afterwards when it's storing

2141
02:04:19,809 --> 02:04:23,669
all of their wealth value is doing them a disservice. So we are not, so most people are

2142
02:04:23,669 --> 02:04:29,649
not self-custody properly right now. My camera has overheated in Bali. So we're down to two,

2143
02:04:29,829 --> 02:04:34,689
but interestingly, I was talking to Checkmate about this this morning. The number of people-

2144
02:04:34,689 --> 02:04:38,369
You were talking to a mate from Czech Republic. He's actually called Checkmate.

2145
02:04:38,369 --> 02:04:44,149
I know. It's a terrible joke. Terrible joke. But we were talking about like number of people

2146
02:04:44,149 --> 02:04:45,789
that actually hold self-custody Bitcoin.

2147
02:04:46,169 --> 02:04:49,389
And he sent me a chart that he puts out,

2148
02:04:49,469 --> 02:04:51,909
which is the number is just under 25 million

2149
02:04:51,909 --> 02:04:54,329
in individual addresses

2150
02:04:54,329 --> 02:04:56,349
that hold more than $100 of Bitcoin.

2151
02:04:57,389 --> 02:05:00,669
And obviously, we know that between me and you,

2152
02:05:00,729 --> 02:05:01,749
we've probably got 100 addresses.

2153
02:05:03,329 --> 02:05:05,929
So the actual number of people self-custody in Bitcoin

2154
02:05:05,929 --> 02:05:08,789
might be like less than 2 million, 3 million.

2155
02:05:08,789 --> 02:05:09,149
Yeah.

2156
02:05:09,349 --> 02:05:11,389
I really don't think that number's very high.

2157
02:05:11,389 --> 02:05:17,009
And I would say out of those, probably 80% aren't doing it properly and securely.

2158
02:05:17,229 --> 02:05:19,169
So they're putting their value at risk.

2159
02:05:19,689 --> 02:05:21,929
We've seen it with people, the number of people.

2160
02:05:22,009 --> 02:05:25,789
I just came from Hong Kong, Bitcoin Asia.

2161
02:05:26,129 --> 02:05:32,329
And it was actually a surprise for me because last year, it was basically an altcoin casino.

2162
02:05:32,669 --> 02:05:34,329
This year, it was actually a Bitcoin conference.

2163
02:05:34,929 --> 02:05:35,769
That was very big change.

2164
02:05:36,069 --> 02:05:39,569
But still, the vast majority of them are still, the number of people who were just like,

2165
02:05:39,569 --> 02:05:44,309
here's my mobile phone with all of my, you know, with like $100,000 worth of Bitcoin on it.

2166
02:05:44,449 --> 02:05:45,029
Don't do that.

2167
02:05:45,409 --> 02:05:47,109
But this is what, this was the norm.

2168
02:05:47,229 --> 02:05:47,469
Yeah.

2169
02:05:47,829 --> 02:05:49,689
So this is what most people are doing.

2170
02:05:49,989 --> 02:05:53,069
This is what most people are doing because they've been told to self-custody without

2171
02:05:53,069 --> 02:05:54,089
being told properly.

2172
02:05:54,189 --> 02:05:57,589
It's like teaching people to drive a car without giving them driving lessons.

2173
02:05:58,069 --> 02:06:00,469
So you're doing it.

2174
02:06:00,489 --> 02:06:02,809
That's what I mean by, yes, we should aim for it.

2175
02:06:03,149 --> 02:06:07,169
But aiming for it isn't just throwing as many people, here's a car and getting people in.

2176
02:06:07,349 --> 02:06:08,409
That ends in disaster.

2177
02:06:08,409 --> 02:06:10,089
It's you have to then do it properly.

2178
02:06:10,329 --> 02:06:12,129
If it's worth doing a job, it's worth doing it properly.

2179
02:06:12,209 --> 02:06:16,109
And when you realize that what it needs to really train someone to properly do it

2180
02:06:16,109 --> 02:06:18,729
and then test them regularly to make sure,

2181
02:06:19,109 --> 02:06:20,649
because you're talking about holding all your value,

2182
02:06:21,369 --> 02:06:23,169
then you realize it's going to always be a niche.

2183
02:06:23,529 --> 02:06:23,629
Yeah.

2184
02:06:23,889 --> 02:06:26,529
Public service announcement, don't keep $100,000 on a phone

2185
02:06:26,529 --> 02:06:28,189
and go and watch Bitcoin sessions videos.

2186
02:06:28,189 --> 02:06:29,809
Yeah, but that doesn't stop people doing it.

2187
02:06:29,929 --> 02:06:32,689
Saying that, you now need to go off and train them and check.

2188
02:06:32,829 --> 02:06:35,149
And you're going to be committed to do that and run courses

2189
02:06:35,149 --> 02:06:36,989
and check back in them for every year?

2190
02:06:36,989 --> 02:06:39,189
I mean, personal responsibility at some point, though.

2191
02:06:39,589 --> 02:06:42,769
Yeah, and that's not good.

2192
02:06:42,789 --> 02:06:43,549
I don't like that.

2193
02:06:43,729 --> 02:06:45,629
I've trained you, told you to do something,

2194
02:06:46,069 --> 02:06:47,349
and then when you go and crash, you go,

2195
02:06:47,389 --> 02:06:48,069
that is personal responsibility.

2196
02:06:48,149 --> 02:06:49,029
Yeah, but I mean, it's your money.

2197
02:06:49,109 --> 02:06:49,989
You go and look after it properly.

2198
02:06:50,009 --> 02:06:50,709
Okay, so you're a kid.

2199
02:06:50,929 --> 02:06:53,909
You'll just say, here, just be careful with knives,

2200
02:06:54,109 --> 02:06:54,569
and that's it.

2201
02:06:54,629 --> 02:06:55,629
But then they cut themselves.

2202
02:06:55,709 --> 02:06:56,749
Oh, personal responsibility.

2203
02:06:57,089 --> 02:06:58,509
No, it's different, because that's a kid.

2204
02:06:58,629 --> 02:06:59,709
Like, we're talking about adults here.

2205
02:06:59,789 --> 02:07:02,729
No, no, but that's the difference of you.

2206
02:07:02,789 --> 02:07:05,069
I think that everybody's a kid

2207
02:07:05,069 --> 02:07:06,409
when it comes to something they don't know.

2208
02:07:06,989 --> 02:07:09,549
is if it comes to driving or flying a plane,

2209
02:07:09,549 --> 02:07:10,949
and I'm a kid, I don't know it.

2210
02:07:10,949 --> 02:07:13,889
I need to be able to fly a plane, I need to be trained.

2211
02:07:13,889 --> 02:07:16,369
And if I'm told by the teacher,

2212
02:07:16,369 --> 02:07:17,629
and so I go to a pilot school,

2213
02:07:17,629 --> 02:07:18,829
and if the pilot school just says,

2214
02:07:18,829 --> 02:07:21,729
just get in the plane, it's really important to do,

2215
02:07:21,729 --> 02:07:23,449
and then I crash,

2216
02:07:23,449 --> 02:07:27,249
then I didn't have the tools to know.

2217
02:07:27,249 --> 02:07:28,349
If the experts are telling me

2218
02:07:28,349 --> 02:07:30,989
that that's what I should have done, and then I crash,

2219
02:07:30,989 --> 02:07:34,149
the experts should take some responsibility then.

2220
02:07:34,149 --> 02:07:35,309
Well, yeah, I mean, I-

2221
02:07:35,309 --> 02:07:36,849
You would be arrested as a pilot trainer

2222
02:07:36,849 --> 02:07:38,089
if that's the way you taught people.

2223
02:07:38,389 --> 02:07:40,989
It comes down to messaging, maybe.

2224
02:07:41,229 --> 02:07:42,829
It's like people should learn to do this thing.

2225
02:07:42,909 --> 02:07:45,109
I'm not saying you should go and set up a hardware wallet,

2226
02:07:45,229 --> 02:07:46,209
put all your money on it,

2227
02:07:46,369 --> 02:07:49,529
and like as in from scratch today, do that.

2228
02:07:49,809 --> 02:07:52,009
But like go learn about it, get comfortable with it,

2229
02:07:52,049 --> 02:07:55,749
put some money in, like back up your wallet.

2230
02:07:55,989 --> 02:07:57,389
Go through all the steps you need to go through,

2231
02:07:57,469 --> 02:07:58,689
know that you can actually do it properly.

2232
02:07:59,149 --> 02:08:00,109
And then when you're comfortable,

2233
02:08:00,189 --> 02:08:00,889
you should be putting your money on it.

2234
02:08:00,889 --> 02:08:02,349
But is that how most people are taught?

2235
02:08:02,949 --> 02:08:04,589
Do you think that's how most people learn

2236
02:08:04,589 --> 02:08:05,269
how to use a hardware wallet?

2237
02:08:05,269 --> 02:08:08,429
Or there's someone who's really busy, they call a friend,

2238
02:08:08,429 --> 02:08:11,989
and he goes, use Trezor, use Ledger, use BitQui,

2239
02:08:11,989 --> 02:08:14,549
and yeah, yeah, yeah, just go off and do it.

2240
02:08:14,549 --> 02:08:15,709
And you should do it.

2241
02:08:15,709 --> 02:08:16,309
And that's it.

2242
02:08:16,309 --> 02:08:18,309
They're not really taught.

2243
02:08:18,309 --> 02:08:20,029
When this is something that you're effectively

2244
02:08:20,029 --> 02:08:22,709
becoming your own bank, you're becoming your own Coinbase,

2245
02:08:22,709 --> 02:08:24,549
you're becoming your own JP Morgan.

2246
02:08:24,549 --> 02:08:28,949
And the education is some friend hurriedly tells you

2247
02:08:28,949 --> 02:08:30,949
in a second, oh, yeah, yeah, go off and do it.

2248
02:08:30,949 --> 02:08:33,589
And that's putting them at risk.

2249
02:08:33,589 --> 02:08:34,869
And it's not intentional.

2250
02:08:34,869 --> 02:08:35,729
No, it's not intentional.

2251
02:08:35,909 --> 02:08:36,629
But that's the end result.

2252
02:08:36,929 --> 02:08:43,469
Most people are not, having been someone who's helped people custody millions of dollars,

2253
02:08:43,989 --> 02:08:51,789
over a billion dollars of Bitcoin over the last 12 years, most people have no idea how

2254
02:08:51,789 --> 02:08:52,969
to do it really properly.

2255
02:08:53,209 --> 02:08:53,389
Yeah.

2256
02:08:53,729 --> 02:08:54,249
Well, that's an issue.

2257
02:08:54,349 --> 02:08:55,509
Maybe we need to do more podcasts.

2258
02:08:55,809 --> 02:09:00,489
More podcasts, more education, and serious education.

2259
02:09:00,489 --> 02:09:04,209
I love what people like BTC Sessions are doing,

2260
02:09:04,549 --> 02:09:06,609
where they have these universities.

2261
02:09:06,909 --> 02:09:09,869
Because if you really want to do it, pay money.

2262
02:09:10,109 --> 02:09:13,909
Because to do it properly is not just something you do quickly over a phone.

2263
02:09:14,009 --> 02:09:15,749
You have to be trained to do this.

2264
02:09:15,769 --> 02:09:20,589
Just like you have to be trained to fly a plane or drive a car.

2265
02:09:20,849 --> 02:09:22,649
No, I think the stuff BTC Sessions does is great.

2266
02:09:22,969 --> 02:09:23,709
Yeah, and others are doing that.

2267
02:09:23,809 --> 02:09:24,229
Of course.

2268
02:09:24,889 --> 02:09:26,869
But we've run out of cameras.

2269
02:09:27,209 --> 02:09:28,169
It's getting too hot in here.

2270
02:09:28,309 --> 02:09:29,429
We'll leave it there for now, Obi.

2271
02:09:29,429 --> 02:09:30,249
But I appreciate this.

2272
02:09:30,249 --> 02:09:31,329
Pull and reflex oil juice.

2273
02:09:31,329 --> 02:09:32,709
I'm going to get in that pool right now.

2274
02:09:32,769 --> 02:09:33,429
Then go for a massage.

2275
02:09:33,789 --> 02:09:35,069
But I appreciate you, man.

2276
02:09:35,129 --> 02:09:35,649
That was a lot of fun.

2277
02:09:35,869 --> 02:09:36,389
Thanks very much.

2278
02:09:36,469 --> 02:09:36,789
Thank you.

2279
02:09:36,849 --> 02:09:37,069
See ya.