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Bitcoin Core developers are not happy with spam.

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People are spending their life improving Bitcoin as money.

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Bitcoin Core is not going to prevent people that want to make transactions

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and are willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars.

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If you're trying to get in the way, they're just going to worry around you.

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That's how Bitcoin works in the first place,

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that's how you can avoid censorship in the first place.

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then it's going to be hindering actual censorship resident payments

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that we actually do not want to go down this path.

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Our whole job is assume everybody is corrupt,

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make sure it doesn't impact the software and eventually the Bitcoin users.

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A weakness of Bitcoin, you are going to store a lot of people's data.

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That's how Bitcoin works.

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This is a risk of running a Bitcoin node.

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The recent changes have no bearing on this risk.

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There is risk to action.

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There is risk to inaction.

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It's just you can have 99% of filters in your network.

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It's just going to make your network irrelevant.

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It's not going to end well if we try to bring politics to be concord.

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You just recreated the same institutions as before.

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Antoine, good to see you, man. How are you doing?

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Good. Good to be on the show.

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I'm excited for this one.

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It's become probably the most controversial thing in Bitcoin since the block size wars.

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Maybe.

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Maybe.

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But I know you have a lot of views that you want to get out there.

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You've been frustrated.

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I mean, I've been frustrated with the way that this conversation's gone on on Twitter.

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I think it's become just a tribal mess at this point.

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But we should start, first time you've been on the show,

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do you want to just introduce yourself, tell everyone who you are, what you do?

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Yeah, I started working in the industry probably 2025,

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probably seven years ago.

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So I started by founding a development company and a retail shop in my hometown in France.

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So we would sell Bitcoin for cash, buy cash for Bitcoin, would also take credit cards payments.

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We were pretty proud of before all the new AML package got in.

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And we tried to go through the greatest length possible.

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There was still legal for a registered business to do.

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Interesting experiences from doing this.

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Unfortunately, it didn't quite pay the bills.

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So we also did developments on the side.

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Unfortunately, I had to do some shitcoin development as well.

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Some Ethereum smart contract stuff, some other like blockchain consulting, essentially people

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paying you to tell them, no, you don't need a blockchain for this.

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And then at the same time, I started working in open source Bitcoin.

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I started making a few requests to Bitcoin Core, which was kind of lame.

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And then I moved on to Lightning development.

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So we'd contribute to Core Lightning for a while,

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Lightning specifications, following up there.

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Then in 2020, I co-founded Wizard Sardine with Kevin Loeck, the founder of Breaking

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Bitcoin and Building on Bitcoin Conferences.

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So together, we raised money to build Revault, Bitcoin Vault implementation.

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There has been a lot of discussions around vaults and how we can do them, but it's always

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very hand-wavy.

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So essentially, yeah, we raised capital.

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People took a risk on actually bringing this to market without requiring any Bitcoin soft fork.

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So our plan was we don't want to put ourselves in a position of we need a soft fork for our company.

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And we wanted to explore how far we can get without a soft fork.

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we could go pretty far in testing some of the aspects of Vault that would be anyways there,

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even if we had Covenants. Some others, of course, would be better with Covenants.

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So would this be using Miniscript and things like that?

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Yeah. So that's another thing where I pivoted in my open source journey there.

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As the time I was working on Unreal Vault, I started contributing quite a bit to Miniscript.

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eventually, yeah, working on it, integrating it into Bitcoin Core, porting it to Taproot

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and co-authoring the manuscript BIP.

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So the Revault thing, we built it, we built the specifications, built the implementation,

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tried to go to companies to start using it in place of what they had.

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and let's say the market was less interested in vaults

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than we were hoping.

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And we reused bits of the Revault software,

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so the manuscript part,

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to make a software that was less convoluted

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than a whole vault to make Liana.

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So Liana is a wallet for inheritance

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and enhanced security purposes that is still active,

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that is seeing more and more users.

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And I would say it's pretty close

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to what Anchor Watch, your sponsor are doing as well.

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So I had no idea that you actually started the honor.

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That's very cool.

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I obviously know of it, but I didn't know you'd done that.

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So when did you start?

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So now you contribute on Core full-time.

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Nowadays, yes, but at the time,

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say I was working on Core Lightning in like,

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let's say 2018, 2019, and 2020,

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I started pivoting from Core Lightning

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to working more and more on Miniscrit,

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which was just my new interest, let's say,

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and eventually my disinterest,

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oh yeah, and there was transaction pinning as well.

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That's a lot.

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And Revolt is using pre-send transactions as well,

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like layer twos, like Lightning.

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So at the time, there was a lot of discussions

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around transaction pinning.

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So I would take part in these discussions

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and that's also drew me to Bitcoin Core development.

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So it's participating in these discussions

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and then into the Miniscript discussions

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and implemented Miniscript and Bitcoin Core.

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At this point, I was already doing a bunch of core stuff

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on the site while working on Revolt and Liana.

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And I started doing more and more

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with also new responsibilities.

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I started with other colleagues, the initiative

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for the security disclosures of the project,

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worked on fuzzing stuff.

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And at this point, it was clear

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that my interest was more into working more

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in Bitcoin Core than the thing I have done so far.

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So after four years of with Old Sardine,

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I joined Chaincode, who gave me the opportunity

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of just coming to do this stuff full time.

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So how long have you been with Chaincode full time now?

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One year.

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One year, okay, nice.

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And what do you actually concentrate on at Core?

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Because obviously there's multiple roles,

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people have different passion projects,

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things they want to work on.

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I'm doing a few things.

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I quite left the discussions around pinning.

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There is talented people working in it already.

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There's Gloria, there's Greg Sanders.

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And I wrapped up my Miniscript project.

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It's in Bitcoin Core.

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It was converted to Taproot.

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And now I took up the great consensus cleanup stuff work.

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So it's not quite a work into Core.

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It's more Core adjacent.

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So it's more like a Bitcoin-wide work that happens to have to be into Bitcoin Core at the end of the day,

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but it's not something that needs to be from Bitcoin Core.

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And so that would be the main thing I'm associated with,

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as well as the security disclosures and a bit of security research.

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So the great consensus cleanup, is that the idea of making it a little bit more modular,

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getting rid of some of the bugs in Bitcoin Core, that kind of thing?

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Yes, there are a bunch of vulnerabilities and other weaknesses in the Bitcoin consensus rules.

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For instance, there is one in the proof of work.

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The proof of work algorithm itself has a bug.

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This bug enables attacks from miners.

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Nothing from what is being fixed in the great consensus cleanup is existential to Bitcoin today.

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It's just a matter of you want to lower the risk of our decentralized money system could

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face actual critical bugs in the future.

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It's like low risk, high impact sort of thing.

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So you don't want to rush any fixes or any changes, but you do want on the long term

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to take the opportunities when there is not a lot going on to actually roll out the fixes.

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It's just like a long term thinking kind of view.

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One of the things that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage.

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This is where Anchor Watch comes in.

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154
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155
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So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is fully insured while not giving up custody.

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So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, wrench attacks, natural disasters, or just your own mistakes,

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and are available for individual and commercial customers located in the US

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Speak to Anchor Watch today for a quote

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and for more details about your security options and coverage

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Visit anchorwatch.com today

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That is anchorwatch.com

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That's leden.io forward slash WBD.

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Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and in every bull market there's always a new wave of investors and with it a flood of new companies, new products and new promises.

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But if you've been around long enough, you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them.

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Some cut corners, take risks with your money or just disappear.

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With River, you have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin is held in multi-sig cold storage

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and it's the only Bitcoin-only exchange in the US with proof of reserves.

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There really is no better place to buy Bitcoin.

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So to open an account today, head over to river.com forward slash WBD and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy.

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that's river.com forward slash wbd okay cool so you said something there that is probably a good

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pivot into the main thing we want to talk about today which is the bitcoin core versus not's whole

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debate that's kicked off um but you call bitcoin money um obviously bitcoin is money yeah but this

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has been a key part of the debate i think is that there are people on the other side of the argument

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to you that are worried that people working at Bitcoin Core see Bitcoin as something else,

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that having JPEGs on Bitcoin is somehow like a wanted thing from the core side?

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No, it's absolutely not wanted.

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Bitcoin Core developers are not happy with spam or they do not somehow not see Bitcoin

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as money.

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It's just like, what would we do this otherwise?

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People are spending their life improving Bitcoin as money, as making it more robust, more censorship resistant, more usable by people that are less technical as well, usable in an actually robust way.

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So no, we're not in it for the JPEGs.

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We're in it for the censorship resistance money.

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OK, and so I wonder if it's worth just framing this discussion.

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Explain where all this started roughly a year ago.

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This must have been the start of 2025.

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I think this all really kicked off.

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What is the change that Core are implementing with Core30?

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And I know there's multiple changes.

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Let's focus first on the op return.

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And why are you doing it?

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Okay.

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Maybe some disclaimer before.

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I think there is a perspective of Bitcoin Core as being one.

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A company.

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Yeah, maybe almost a company or even more organized than it actually is.

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or people having the core dev badge

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and now you're part of the organization.

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There's nothing of such.

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It's just people showing up.

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And then you show up repeatedly

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and you're part of the regular contributors,

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but there's no ceremony of new contributors.

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Because that's the case

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and nobody chooses who is going to be working on core

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or who is not going to be working on core,

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we all have

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we come from different backgrounds

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and we have different opinions

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so I can give my perspective

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especially as I propose to change

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but that's only going to be my perspective

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not Bitcoin Core

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good disclaimer

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quick disclaimer

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the controversy

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really started

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two years ago

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I think with the inscription stuff

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and

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And there was very low activity on the Bitcoin network.

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Not a lot of people interested in making financial transactions and the network fees were very

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low that some scammers decided to store NFTs and other random bullshit on chain.

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And people were mad at it for good reasons, probably, but had the bad, I would say the

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wrong knee jerk reaction.

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They were Bitcoin Core needs to do something.

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It's always kind of the intervention fallacy of, oh, the government needs to step in.

243
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,680
It's just like, oh, Bitcoin Core needs to step in.

244
00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,000
And you're like, yeah, but Bitcoin Core is not the government of Bitcoin.

245
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,940
Bitcoin Core does not control Bitcoin.

246
00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:10,580
So Bitcoin Core can try to introduce new rules on your local mempool.

247
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,880
But it's all that it's going to do on your local mempool.

248
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,660
It's not going to change what people globally want to be using Bitcoin for.

249
00:15:20,020 --> 00:15:29,960
And maybe due to lack of communications and maybe sometimes getting caught up on arguments

250
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:39,520
And we're all humans. I have made snarky comments in the past that are not the best perspective for someone working on such an important project.

251
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:46,200
Or it's just like it started fueling resentment between two sides that were speaking basically past each other.

252
00:15:46,200 --> 00:16:02,520
And this died down for a bit with, on the one hand, people that were convinced that a lot of the past rules that we had, such as the up-return limits, are completely obsolete now.

253
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:08,820
Because people can just store four times as much data for four times cheaper rates.

254
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:13,540
Let's say the fee per byte that you're going to pay with inscriptions is four times less than its up-return.

255
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:14,500
Because it's going in the witness.

256
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:16,220
biggest games with this data.

257
00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:21,900
And from one side, people were like,

258
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,460
we now have some relay policy rules that are obsolete

259
00:16:27,460 --> 00:16:29,360
and are just going to cause more troubles

260
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,580
than they are preventing anything from happening.

261
00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:36,180
And on the other extreme, there were people saying,

262
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,320
yeah, no, we should actually implement the limits

263
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,920
that we have for up return on the inscriptions

264
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,540
and to prevent them from happening.

265
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,680
But the reality is just that there was so high demand

266
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,520
for these transactions that it's not going to happen.

267
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,680
It's not Bitcoin Core is not going to prevent people

268
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:56,780
that want to make transactions

269
00:16:56,780 --> 00:16:59,560
and are willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars

270
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:00,720
of revenue to miners.

271
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,240
It's just not happening.

272
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,660
Because they're going to find a way of doing it,

273
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,880
whether that's going out of band directly to miners

274
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,180
to put these transactions in.

275
00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:09,460
They're not breaking any consensus rules,

276
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,480
so there's no way you stop it.

277
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:11,020
Exactly.

278
00:17:11,020 --> 00:17:12,800
Nobody is breaking consensus rules.

279
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,500
And if you're trying to get in the way, they're just going to root around you.

280
00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:19,260
That's how Bitcoin works in the first place.

281
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:22,580
That's how we can avoid censorship in the first place.

282
00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:32,240
Not to call preventing scams from happening on chain being censorship itself, but that's the same mechanism that we use for censorship of actual payments.

283
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:34,760
So they can just reuse this mechanism.

284
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,820
And if we try to prevent this mechanism, then it's going to be hindering actual censorship

285
00:17:40,820 --> 00:17:44,220
precedent payments that we actually do not want to go down this path.

286
00:17:45,820 --> 00:17:55,200
So really, the perspective of a lot of people were, there's no, nothing we can really do.

287
00:17:55,500 --> 00:18:03,380
And, and, and we net, we need to let people, Bitcoin grow, get more adoption and JPEGs are

288
00:18:03,380 --> 00:18:10,220
going to be outbid because at the end of the day, the spam is not a mortal threat to Bitcoin

289
00:18:10,220 --> 00:18:11,000
as money.

290
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:11,980
Okay.

291
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,260
So a few things I want to get into there.

292
00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:19,720
Let's go, let's start with the ways that people are using Bitcoin to put what we can call

293
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:20,440
spam on chain.

294
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:26,380
So at the moment, they are using either the witness data, op return or fake pub keys.

295
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:26,740
Yeah.

296
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:29,400
Very little usage of op return overall.

297
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,760
Okay, but with this change, the limit is being removed from OpReturn.

298
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,660
So there is potential that people can put larger amounts of data in that.

299
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,380
And the benefit of that from the spammer's perspective

300
00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:44,640
is that you don't have to break the data up.

301
00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:45,120
Is that correct?

302
00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:48,640
I don't think they see any advantage to it from the spammer's perspective.

303
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:50,280
Okay, explain why.

304
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,840
Because then they have the same mechanism that is four times cheaper

305
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,580
and allows for four times more data.

306
00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:59,140
So they're going to continue just to put it in the witness because it's cheaper.

307
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,680
So then why are you doing this then?

308
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,880
Oh, because it was, on the one hand, it was pointless.

309
00:19:06,220 --> 00:19:10,660
And on the other hand, it was creating malincentives on the network.

310
00:19:10,660 --> 00:19:25,240
So the whole thing was back in 2023, some people from the camp of saying that, oh, now all this paternalistic rules at the policy level are completely obsolete.

311
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:31,980
We have people that first are able to store data and that we cannot prevent.

312
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:42,500
And two, we have people that are actively getting organized to circumvent and write around anybody that is trying to impose more restrictive policy.

313
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:56,360
So these people said Bitcoin Core should remove the up return limit because down the road some normal use cases are going to be prevented by this limit.

314
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,300
And it's not to say that, well, on the one hand, the limit prevents nothing.

315
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,820
And on the other hand, you say that it prevents something.

316
00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:14,480
But the key difference is that the relay policy limit does not prevent what ends up on chain, whereas it does prevent what gets routed on the main peer-to-peer network.

317
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:22,820
And some people want the properties of the main peer-to-peer network, for instance, for timely transactions confirmation.

318
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:31,600
And those use cases are very legitimate money, financial transactions, such as Lightning needs this property.

319
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:37,280
They don't need the opportunity, but they need the property of being able to send a transaction to the peer-to-peer network.

320
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:43,360
And it's very hard to pin this transaction, to circumvent its propagation and circumvent its eventual confirmation.

321
00:20:44,240 --> 00:21:03,700
And we had some BitVM people that were starting to because they were willing to have this property of propagation on the network and they didn even want to use it They just wanted to have the threat of being able to use it It like the penalty transaction in Lightning Wait so I think you need to explain that to me a bit more deeply

322
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:07,380
So this obviously, Citria were at the heart of this whole debate

323
00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:09,540
because they wanted to use the op return

324
00:21:09,540 --> 00:21:11,480
and they didn't have enough data in there to be able...

325
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,680
They didn't want to use the op return.

326
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:14,900
I want them to use the op return.

327
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,540
You want them to use it because it's a less harmful way

328
00:21:17,540 --> 00:21:18,500
of putting that data on chain?

329
00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:19,140
Yes.

330
00:21:19,140 --> 00:21:24,140
So essentially the C-tree has been at the core of the issue,

331
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:26,320
and maybe I should have been,

332
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,960
some people told me from the filter side actually,

333
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,600
that I should have been less transparent,

334
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:31,960
which I disagree, but-

335
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,520
I disagree too.

336
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,340
But it's just the C-tree, from first principle,

337
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:42,580
the operating limit was obsolete for the past three years.

338
00:21:42,580 --> 00:21:45,000
We just never got around to removing it

339
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,740
because it would make people mad

340
00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:51,260
and we didn't have any evidence of it actually creating malincentive.

341
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,680
I just happened to run into this guy at the Boston conference,

342
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,900
the MIT Expo, and then the UpNext conference in DC,

343
00:22:02,620 --> 00:22:06,060
who explained to me his design on BitVM

344
00:22:06,060 --> 00:22:11,740
and explained to me that he needs to have some sort of penalty transactions,

345
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,540
as you have in Lightning, that needs to be confirmed fast.

346
00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:18,180
and this transaction needs to have some data attached to them

347
00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:20,300
because it's some sort of zero-knowledge proof.

348
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,820
I was like, what we've said for the past two years

349
00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:26,100
is actually becoming true in front of my eyes.

350
00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:29,880
And so I was like, but then you cannot do this in the Reliant Network today.

351
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,440
I was like, oh yeah, we're just using fake outputs then.

352
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,660
I was like, that's terrible.

353
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,960
You should explain why that's terrible because I'm not as technical as you.

354
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,800
I'm sure a lot of the listeners aren't as technical as you.

355
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:49,520
OK, so in other scenarios, using fake pubkeys in outputs is going to grow the UTXO set and

356
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,720
it's going to make it harder for everybody to run a node and it's going to be harder to get

357
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:02,880
mining and be competitive in the mining market. So usually, I want to put restrictions on how much

358
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:09,360
you can grow the UTXO set and using fake popkeys in outputs that cannot be pruned and cannot

359
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:15,120
be detected as unspendable. In the UTXO set, unspendable transaction output set, you only

360
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:21,520
keep outputs that are unspent. Did I say unspendable transaction? I meant to say unspent

361
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:28,880
transaction output set. You only keep the outputs that are unspent. If you have transaction output

362
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,060
that are provably non-spendable,

363
00:23:31,180 --> 00:23:33,220
nobody will ever be able to spend them,

364
00:23:33,420 --> 00:23:35,680
then the Bitcoin Core software just discards them

365
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,520
and you don't have to keep them in your ATX or set.

366
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,660
So that's the original reason

367
00:23:39,660 --> 00:23:41,880
for why Opriton was introduced in the first place

368
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:42,820
back in 2014,

369
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,760
because people were starting to use barrier multisigs

370
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,320
and other schemes to store data anyways

371
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,240
and just wanted them to use

372
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,100
a less harmful way of storing the data.

373
00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:56,220
It's not quite the case with C3R

374
00:23:56,220 --> 00:23:58,340
or any of the BitVM stuff

375
00:23:58,340 --> 00:24:00,840
or any new thing that could come up in the future.

376
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,820
It's just in this case,

377
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,520
they were not going to create a lot of spam in the UTX or set.

378
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:13,100
It was just an instance of the policy actually being harmful

379
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:15,260
and pushing them to do more harmful stuff.

380
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,580
It's just evidence of the first principle theory

381
00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:18,900
that was here for the past two years.

382
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,180
So I just came back from the event

383
00:24:21,180 --> 00:24:23,500
and sent an email to a mailing list saying,

384
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,540
well, we had this limit that was obsolete for the past two years.

385
00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:30,580
now there is evidence that is actually creating malincentive.

386
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:36,680
All these people that were asking for us to remove the limit

387
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,540
and we didn't do it despite probably knowing

388
00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:42,180
it was probably a good idea to remove it, were right.

389
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,200
And now we have evidence that they were right.

390
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,900
So let's just do the right thing.

391
00:24:46,580 --> 00:24:50,400
So this will stop UTXO blow on Bitcoin?

392
00:24:50,620 --> 00:24:50,820
No.

393
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:51,940
Okay.

394
00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:53,960
This is not going to stop UTXO blow.

395
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,960
This is just removing something that was...

396
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:06,600
I'm kind of the opinion of it's really not a big deal.

397
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,300
A lot of people are taking this position of either way, it's not a big deal.

398
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,220
I'm not on the core camp or I'm not on the filter camp

399
00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:19,060
because it's not going to make a big difference either way.

400
00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:21,580
The spammers will continue to use the inscriptions.

401
00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:23,600
It's four times more data, four times cheaper.

402
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,960
The people that want to spam the UTXO site can always do it.

403
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:32,440
We just provide, some people take the analogy of garbage can.

404
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,200
I promised myself I wouldn't use analogies, and here I am.

405
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,080
And we have that, but we cannot coerce them

406
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,440
into using actually the garbage can.

407
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,960
So yeah, it's not going to have big change.

408
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,860
It's just that in the way that you want

409
00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:58,420
to design relay policy. You certainly do not want to create malincentives. You want to create

410
00:25:58,420 --> 00:26:05,180
the best possible incentive and then people act as they want. The previous version just did not

411
00:26:05,180 --> 00:26:09,340
even allow people to do the right thing. At least now, we allow people to do the right thing.

412
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:13,980
So when you're talking about the malincentive here, are you talking about sort of private mempools?

413
00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:29,140
Not in this instance. In this instance, it's just that an absolute policy restriction was pushing people that wanted to use the peer-to-peer area network towards spamming the UGXO set instead.

414
00:26:29,140 --> 00:26:29,500
Okay.

415
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,640
And I want to underline, they were not going to spam the UTXO set by a huge amount.

416
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:45,600
But it's still, that's why some people misunderstand the point as being, oh, they're going to spam the UTXO set, we need to do something.

417
00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:48,320
It's not, we need to do something and we are in a reaction.

418
00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:53,920
It's just that from first principle, we want to design the relay policy right.

419
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,120
And we should have done it two years ago.

420
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:58,960
We didn't do the right thing two years ago.

421
00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:01,500
Now it's the second best time to do the right thing.

422
00:27:02,020 --> 00:27:04,460
Okay, so I think it'd be worth going through

423
00:27:04,460 --> 00:27:06,980
some of the key arguments from the not side

424
00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:09,080
and get your take on them.

425
00:27:09,220 --> 00:27:12,840
So I think one of the big issues that people have

426
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,460
is the idea of not being able to control

427
00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:17,040
these settings on their own node.

428
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,060
So you're going to,

429
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,520
Core are going to remove the ability

430
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,780
to configure this yourself.

431
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,140
No.

432
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,460
Is that not set as deprecated though?

433
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:23,940
Not anymore.

434
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:24,920
Not anymore, okay.

435
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,840
So we set it as deprecated initially.

436
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:37,380
But in the face of, in my opinion, for wrong reasons, of people wanting to use this setting,

437
00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:42,520
we just said, all right, we mark it as deprecated.

438
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:44,000
But what does it mean even?

439
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,120
Are we really going to get rid of this setting in the near future?

440
00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:51,000
It's like, are we going to get rid of it in the next version?

441
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,040
Not really.

442
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,020
People are using it.

443
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,580
In one year, in two years, maybe.

444
00:27:55,580 --> 00:27:59,460
People have it in the Bitcoin.conf and the default of sticky.

445
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,560
And on the other hand, what does it get us to get rid of it?

446
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,640
It's just like marginally less code to maintain, which I'm all for.

447
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,240
I wish we could get rid of the code.

448
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,540
I'm just doing with now the new circumstances are there is no way that we are going to get

449
00:28:17,540 --> 00:28:19,020
rid of this option in the near future.

450
00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:22,400
Therefore, it was technically incorrect to say that it was deprecated.

451
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:29,020
It was not. It was just going to linger as deprecated for five versions or six versions or whatnot.

452
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,160
We had one of these settings, actually.

453
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,480
The RPC user and RPC password have been deprecated for 10 years.

454
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,060
And because so many people use them, we just undeprecated them after 10 years and just gave up.

455
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:48,800
Okay. But do you not think that it is or it should be up to the person running the node to set these settings?

456
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:54,860
Yeah, at the end of the day, people have the agency of running whatever software they want.

457
00:28:55,100 --> 00:29:02,500
They have ultimate control on what transactions they're going to relay or not, or not have a mempool at all.

458
00:29:03,620 --> 00:29:10,300
But I guess it's just an argument, how do you want to design the best Bitcoin software possible?

459
00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:17,060
Certainly, it's not going to be having every tweak possible on every post relay policy setting.

460
00:29:17,060 --> 00:29:21,380
I can tell you there is hundreds of them, hundreds of configurations you could have.

461
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:33,060
At the end of the day, you're using Bitcoin Core because you think that the Bitcoin Core developers,

462
00:29:33,060 --> 00:29:39,700
outside of the consensus rules, are making good decisions about what is good for end users,

463
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:46,580
what is good for big relay nodes and big economic nodes, and what is good for miners to be able to

464
00:29:46,580 --> 00:29:47,640
to join the mining market.

465
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,640
So that's why they're deferring their decision

466
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,540
to Bitcoin developers that are expert on this tiny topic.

467
00:29:54,540 --> 00:29:56,420
And they always have the choice to go elsewhere

468
00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:58,840
and use another software or use a previous version

469
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,280
or use one version with tiny bit of cut changed.

470
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,280
And we cannot maintain a setting for everything.

471
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,220
It's just insane.

472
00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:10,760
It's bad software development.

473
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,980
So my take is that we shouldn't have this setting

474
00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:15,860
in the first place.

475
00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:16,920
They make no sense.

476
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,880
But since we have it now, we need to deal with it.

477
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,780
And people want to use it, so we will leave the setting.

478
00:30:24,260 --> 00:30:27,180
And like you say, people can go and run whatever software they want.

479
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,620
And we've seen that happen.

480
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,160
Like, Notts has grown massively over the last year.

481
00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:34,940
I think by some accounts, they're 20-plus percent of nodes.

482
00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:36,840
I know those numbers are...

483
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,160
Correct numbers.

484
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,240
I get that, because people can just spin up 10 in their bedroom or whatever.

485
00:30:41,060 --> 00:30:45,640
Do you have actually any idea what the number of actual economic nodes are running Notts?

486
00:30:45,860 --> 00:30:49,740
I don't have an idea, but I don't want to minimize it either.

487
00:30:50,540 --> 00:30:54,540
I talked with a lot of people that were concerned by the situation,

488
00:30:54,740 --> 00:30:59,620
a lot of people that were maybe not quite on board with Luke,

489
00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:03,020
who is a character of his own, to say the least,

490
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:08,100
but just wanted to switch implementation and in practice to Bitcoin Core.

491
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:10,980
I think it's due to a misunderstanding, but I understand it.

492
00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:11,900
And it's real.

493
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:15,340
I think we shouldn't view it as like,

494
00:31:15,340 --> 00:31:19,100
these people are not real, or it's all bots on Twitter.

495
00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:21,660
It's not all bots, there are real people that work.

496
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:22,660
For sure.

497
00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:25,140
And you see that we were at PubKey last night,

498
00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:28,020
and it was a conversation about this.

499
00:31:28,020 --> 00:31:29,860
And there's people in the room who are clearly on the not side.

500
00:31:29,860 --> 00:31:32,260
This is a real growing set of users

501
00:31:32,260 --> 00:31:34,300
who are choosing to move away from Core.

502
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:36,700
Is that an issue in any way?

503
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:39,340
Core has always been the reference implementation.

504
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:43,320
it's been the source of truth as it were.

505
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,360
If Nuts or any other implementation grows to a larger degree

506
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,140
does that ever become an issue for the network?

507
00:31:51,620 --> 00:31:54,940
Nuts itself has a much lower risk

508
00:31:54,940 --> 00:31:58,700
of being consensus inconsistent with Bitcoin Core

509
00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:02,860
so I'd much rather see people run Nuts at scale

510
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:06,340
than alternative implementations from scratch.

511
00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:10,560
because it's just a fork of call with however many changes

512
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:17,260
which is the other issue so of course it's great that's the key poverty of bitcoin is

513
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:22,420
you choose the software you want to run and it's good that people can change i'm just trying to

514
00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:30,340
warn you there that there is massive changes that have been applied to not not reviewed by anybody

515
00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:34,740
by a single man with his interesting views.

516
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,420
So I think this is a really important thing to get into

517
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:40,180
because Luke has clearly done some amazing things for Bitcoin.

518
00:32:40,980 --> 00:32:44,860
And you don't have to agree with all of his personal takes on the world,

519
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,220
which I certainly don't, to accept that he has been very good for Bitcoin.

520
00:32:49,740 --> 00:32:52,520
But I have been sort of shouted at in the comments

521
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:53,740
for saying this on a number of shows

522
00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:56,080
where I'd say this is run by one developer.

523
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,260
And people are like, no, there's lots of developers moving to NAS.

524
00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:02,800
And I'm sure in the past year, there have been developers move over and start looking at the code.

525
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:09,460
But at the same time, Luke has the ability just to push code without much review or any review.

526
00:33:09,620 --> 00:33:10,320
Is that correct?

527
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:11,180
That's correct.

528
00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,060
Okay. And is that happening?

529
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:13,700
Yes.

530
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,520
So maybe it'd be worth you explaining why that is a risk.

531
00:33:17,740 --> 00:33:19,040
This is the main reason.

532
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:27,040
I've said on other shows that I'm going to stick with version 29.

533
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,540
And that's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is that you just can do that.

534
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,320
It's backwards compatible.

535
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:32,200
You don't have to upgrade.

536
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,700
I just kind of want to see what happens here.

537
00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:39,540
But I've also said I would not feel comfortable telling anyone to run NOTS for this exact reason.

538
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,240
So maybe it's worth you explaining why this is such an issue.

539
00:33:42,380 --> 00:33:42,500
Sure.

540
00:33:42,980 --> 00:33:49,920
But maybe just to touch on the 29, Bitcoin Core maintains three releases at the same time.

541
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,240
Exactly for this reason.

542
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,000
For people that do not want to upgrade too quickly.

543
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,240
people that maybe want to take some time and reconsider before upgrading.

544
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,520
So we're going to, we call them branches.

545
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:06,660
You've got the code that is added one after the other, like a blockchain, essentially.

546
00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:09,720
And then you've got a version that forks from this blockchain.

547
00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:11,820
The development version continues.

548
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,620
And then that becomes, this branch eventually becomes a release.

549
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,780
And we maintain the past three releases.

550
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,400
So currently we have 27, 28, and 29.

551
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,060
And as we are going to release 30, we are going to continue maintaining 29 and 28.

552
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,160
So we're going to release patch for some bug fixes.

553
00:34:30,340 --> 00:34:32,200
Unfortunately, we cannot release all of them.

554
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:35,140
But it's a good idea.

555
00:34:35,380 --> 00:34:38,180
Well, it's never a good idea to just rush to upgrading.

556
00:34:38,620 --> 00:34:38,980
Anything.

557
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:39,540
Anything.

558
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:44,060
Yeah, it depends on what type of software.

559
00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:49,360
But if it's your fucking Tesla that has a critical vulnerability,

560
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,940
you're not going to inspect the code, just upgrade.

561
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,320
you're trusting them in the first place. For Bitcoin, there's more of a balance. You want to

562
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,760
make sure the developers didn't change the definition of Bitcoin before you upgrade,

563
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:12,560
but you also want to upgrade before bug fixes like security bug fixes are made public. So I would say

564
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:18,000
it's this window of three releases. Make sure to upgrade to the latest batch releases and make sure

565
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,060
to upgrade before, because after the three window,

566
00:35:22,220 --> 00:35:24,640
like for instance, now that we arrive to 30,

567
00:35:24,820 --> 00:35:28,300
we are going to disclose the vulnerabilities to 27.

568
00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:30,840
Then you can make your own judgment

569
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,440
about how much you're impacted by the security vulnerabilities,

570
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,980
but by default, it's a good idea to upgrade from it.

571
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:39,820
So yeah.

572
00:35:40,020 --> 00:35:42,000
That's good context, because I'm lazy.

573
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,140
And so probably six months ago, I was like,

574
00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:45,860
I don't even know which version of core I'm running.

575
00:35:45,940 --> 00:35:46,920
And I had a look and it was 27.

576
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,740
So people are running 27, they need to be moving to 28 or 29,

577
00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:53,620
but they don't have to move to 30, and that's a key point.

578
00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:53,960
Yes.

579
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:57,100
All right, so then let's talk about the issues

580
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:58,620
with a single developer running NARTs.

581
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,800
Well, the issue is like for any other software,

582
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,340
except here we're talking about a very important piece of software.

583
00:36:06,860 --> 00:36:09,000
I'm talking about all the security vulnerabilities

584
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,180
that we disclose in Bitcoin Core, because there is a lot.

585
00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:14,420
And there is a lot of developers,

586
00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:21,140
a lot of very qualitative developers having eyes on the code base, reviewing the code base. There is

587
00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:29,620
massive testing going on of various parts of Bitcoin Core. And still, almost every release,

588
00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:39,060
we fix security bugs that were disclosed. And it happens with 20 people day to day working on

589
00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:43,160
on the project and 40 people on the broader group

590
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,480
having eyes on the code base, plus all the people

591
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,540
that reviewed the code before upgrading.

592
00:36:48,540 --> 00:36:49,620
It still happens.

593
00:36:49,620 --> 00:36:56,620
And no matter how qualified you are,

594
00:36:56,620 --> 00:36:59,360
what is going to really change the risk of minimizing

595
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,260
the risk of bugs is the number of people.

596
00:37:01,260 --> 00:37:03,700
People come from different perspective,

597
00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:06,380
from having thought about the code this way,

598
00:37:06,380 --> 00:37:08,780
or having thought about the protocol this way.

599
00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:15,100
So they are going to look at the code in a different manner and have possibly find bugs.

600
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:26,460
That's the very famous quote from Linus Torvalds, given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.

601
00:37:26,460 --> 00:37:33,480
And well, nuts is on the other extreme, which is they're using Bitcoin Core as a basis,

602
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:43,200
which is very good, but then they have 1,500 additional changes unreviewed on top of it.

603
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:49,220
And these changes are not only tiny changes to RPC comments or the GUI.

604
00:37:49,220 --> 00:37:51,460
A lot of them are, but not all of them.

605
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:53,980
Some of them touch the validation code.

606
00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:59,440
You start being like the peer-to-peer code and you start being, has anybody had any eyes

607
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:00,440
on it?

608
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,800
you start looking at the test and then because it's such a massive undertaking to be rebasing

609
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:12,040
on top of Bitcoin Core and maintaining everything, some of the tests get disabled. So it's also not

610
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:20,120
tested as much, it's unreviewed, untested, straight to the user. That's just a gastrointestinal

611
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:26,440
waiting to happen. For something as important as the Bitcoin implementation, that's very dangerous.

612
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,100
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621
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636
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and use code wbd maybe we should talk again one of the talking points coming out of the not side

637
00:40:37,660 --> 00:40:44,020
is that luke has somehow been sort of ostracized from the conversation in the core team um

638
00:40:44,020 --> 00:40:49,080
Maybe it's worth giving the kind of history of Luke working with Core,

639
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,080
how that's evolved and what the situation is right now.

640
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:56,920
Well, I think it's unchanged, really.

641
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,100
I think the accusations of Australian situation are unfounded.

642
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,520
That's not true.

643
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,740
I think it's really one of the things about the decision process

644
00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:11,440
of how Bitcoin Core makes changes.

645
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:23,360
whether your code is coming from a pseudonym, from someone well-known, or from someone with

646
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,280
ideologies that you strongly disagree with, such as me with Luke, for instance.

647
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:34,720
We look at the code, and if the code is good, the code is included. If the code is bad,

648
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:43,200
the cut is refused. And that's what happens with Luke. Luke has never been a major contributor

649
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,960
in terms of volume. He's always been fairly sporadic. He was running his business. He

650
00:41:48,960 --> 00:42:00,320
was running Elegy pool at the very beginning He was doing some stuff and he contributed a bunch but he was also sometimes some very far projects

651
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,440
that did not attract a lot of attentions from other developers.

652
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,880
And if you can attract attention of other developers,

653
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,680
your thing is going to go nowhere because in Bitcoin Core,

654
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,040
we have standards of review, no review, no code merge.

655
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:23,200
But a lot of his code was merged because he was reviewed and it was good.

656
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,440
And it still happens today.

657
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:33,800
Just the other month, as Luke was insulting me on Twitter, he made a poor request that

658
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:34,800
made sense.

659
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,200
So I just watched out the code and I was like, code is good.

660
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,280
I acted, the poor request was merged and it's actually being shipped in 30, I think.

661
00:42:43,280 --> 00:43:04,760
Okay, so maybe I'm trying to think of the best place to go from here. Maybe it's worth talking about how policy change is handled within core as opposed to sort of consensus changes, because this is a really important distinction and something that I've seen misconstrued on Twitter.

662
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,000
So policy change obviously does not require broad consensus from Bitcoiners.

663
00:43:10,380 --> 00:43:14,380
This is something that is decided by the core team and core maintainers.

664
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:14,860
Is that correct?

665
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:21,420
Yeah, it's like any other thing in the software, like what database are you going to use for your wallet?

666
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:23,440
It's a local change.

667
00:43:23,580 --> 00:43:27,320
It's a local change which has implications network-wide.

668
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:29,140
So it's very important.

669
00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:35,200
And I wouldn't say it's also only up to the Bitcoin core developers.

670
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,200
I think it's up to the larger group of Bitcoin developers.

671
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:46,240
For instance, a lot of the, what you, like everything is part of relay policy.

672
00:43:46,380 --> 00:43:52,320
If you are going to have a new message on the protocol, you need other implementation to be, to interconnect.

673
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:58,340
You need people that are speaking the PR2P protocol that are not necessarily nodes to

674
00:43:58,340 --> 00:43:59,840
be able to be compatible.

675
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,200
So it's going to happen on the mailing list.

676
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,340
It's going to happen in the BIP repository more so than on Bitcoin Core.

677
00:44:07,340 --> 00:44:15,760
Of course, it's a lot of Bitcoin Core people in these discussions because that's the most

678
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,640
active implementation, it's the reference implementation, but it's not Bitcoin Core specific.

679
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,520
Okay, and so this is another place where some criticism has come at Core.

680
00:44:25,020 --> 00:44:31,460
When this change was first proposed, there were people trying to have the conversation on GitHub

681
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:36,700
who ended up getting blocked from the GitHub or having their accounts banned.

682
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,000
Do you think Core handled that correctly?

683
00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:42,380
Or is that just not the place to have that discussion?

684
00:44:42,620 --> 00:44:43,700
You know, I want to say no.

685
00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:48,620
But it's also, I always try to, from being in the position of receiving a lot of criticism

686
00:44:48,620 --> 00:44:50,860
from people that it's easy to criticize.

687
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,100
It's very hard.

688
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,200
So I'm not a fan of the moderation guidelines personally,

689
00:44:56,740 --> 00:45:00,000
but I don't want to be criticizing it

690
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,900
because I don't know what is better.

691
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,740
It's just like, are you going to let trolls come

692
00:45:07,740 --> 00:45:11,340
and derail threads in your workplace?

693
00:45:12,660 --> 00:45:13,380
Probably not.

694
00:45:13,460 --> 00:45:14,220
You don't want that.

695
00:45:14,660 --> 00:45:16,480
Are you going to have moderation guidelines?

696
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,380
Well, the guidelines can be weaponized.

697
00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:24,340
You're going to have no guidelines, but then it's more arbitrary control from the maintainers.

698
00:45:24,820 --> 00:45:28,500
I think that would be the solution I favor, but there is good arguments on all sides.

699
00:45:30,180 --> 00:45:36,980
So I think Core could have handled it differently, but I don't know what could have been done better.

700
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,960
I think a few people, all the intervention was very mild.

701
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:44,580
It was dramatized on Twitter and everything.

702
00:45:44,580 --> 00:45:46,020
I've got banned from Bitcoin.

703
00:45:46,020 --> 00:45:49,140
some people were muted for 24 hours.

704
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:51,800
Not the end of the world.

705
00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:55,360
So when I spoke to Mechanic on the podcast

706
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:56,640
nearly six months ago now,

707
00:45:56,940 --> 00:45:58,900
I'm quite sure he said,

708
00:45:59,160 --> 00:45:59,900
okay, that's fair.

709
00:45:59,980 --> 00:46:01,420
Maybe it's not the place to have the conversation.

710
00:46:01,900 --> 00:46:02,860
I could be misremembering that,

711
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:03,500
but I think he did.

712
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,040
All right, so then let's get on to the next big one,

713
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,120
which I saw I had Samsung Mail on the podcast recently.

714
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:09,760
I know you listened to that one.

715
00:46:10,020 --> 00:46:11,540
And one of the things that he said,

716
00:46:11,820 --> 00:46:13,600
which I found a little surprising,

717
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:18,660
was that he thought core has essentially become corrupted in some way

718
00:46:18,660 --> 00:46:21,080
and that there were going to be kind of whistleblowers

719
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,000
that would come out and tell the story.

720
00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:27,660
Do you want to, I don't even exactly know how to phrase the question to you,

721
00:46:27,700 --> 00:46:29,280
but do you want to respond to that as an idea?

722
00:46:30,740 --> 00:46:34,600
As an idea, it's just wrong framing.

723
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,100
It's always the things of, if someone comes to you as an accusation

724
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:43,140
and they always frame it with a way where you say yes

725
00:46:43,140 --> 00:46:46,060
or you say, no, you're incriminating yourself either way.

726
00:46:46,060 --> 00:46:48,360
It's like, have you stopped beating your wife?

727
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,940
You say, you say, yes, you imply that you actually did it.

728
00:46:51,940 --> 00:46:54,600
You say, no, you are continuing to do it.

729
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,240
So no, core is not corrupt.

730
00:46:58,940 --> 00:47:03,780
In the sense that I think corruption for core would be

731
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,940
that we do not put the best interest of the Bitcoin users

732
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:10,380
first,

733
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:19,820
that the way the decision process relies more on politics or you have the right view, the right

734
00:47:19,820 --> 00:47:25,660
ideology. Therefore, we're going to merge your code. That's what I would call corruption. And

735
00:47:25,660 --> 00:47:34,680
there's nothing of such happening in Bitcoin Core. Now, I cannot quite reassure you of everyone is a

736
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,280
I don't know everybody personally that work in core.

737
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,740
After all, we are all pretty paranoid around,

738
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,320
I don't know what the other guy that is opening this pull request,

739
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,860
his real motive is.

740
00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:49,760
That's our job.

741
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,240
Our whole job is assume everybody is corrupt,

742
00:47:52,980 --> 00:47:55,100
make sure it doesn't impact the software

743
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:56,820
and eventually the Bitcoin users.

744
00:47:57,700 --> 00:47:59,520
So no core is not corrupt,

745
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,960
but I will continue acting as if it was.

746
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:04,040
Okay, I think you touched on something there

747
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,340
that's another important point for you to address

748
00:48:06,340 --> 00:48:08,640
is that there's also accusations that,

749
00:48:09,620 --> 00:48:11,720
and this kind of comes back to the corruption side,

750
00:48:11,820 --> 00:48:15,260
that there's something ideologically wrong in Core,

751
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:17,920
that Core want Bitcoin to be this Ethereum-like thing

752
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,120
and it's becoming woke,

753
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,380
is like a common thing that you see on Twitter.

754
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,980
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly the same framing as before.

755
00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:28,000
It's like, oh, have you stopped painting your hair blue?

756
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,480
Yeah, no, it's not true.

757
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,040
It's not true.

758
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,580
People overreacted to a few changes in the past from people that were stopped.

759
00:48:38,580 --> 00:48:48,100
For instance, the block list, allow list thing of people that were like, just stop shouting

760
00:48:48,100 --> 00:48:49,100
at me.

761
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:52,620
I'm just going to make the change.

762
00:48:52,620 --> 00:48:57,280
People on the other side of the spectrum being like, oh no, you bend the knee.

763
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,160
I was like, it doesn't matter.

764
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,380
It's just Bitcoin Core developers are doing a lot of things and taking a lot of heat from

765
00:49:06,380 --> 00:49:09,300
making the right choices all the time.

766
00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:12,320
This is inconsequential.

767
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,760
And from this and from a lack of communication from a lot of Bitcoin Core contributors with

768
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:24,660
the wider Bitcoiner community, I think you've got this people coming from the perspective

769
00:49:24,660 --> 00:49:25,820
and they have this perspective.

770
00:49:25,820 --> 00:49:31,140
And now, because there's not too much communication between the two, they're going to have rainfall

771
00:49:31,140 --> 00:49:38,140
They're going to have new information come and it's a confirmation of what you thought.

772
00:49:38,140 --> 00:49:43,240
You're going to see an event as, oh, it's another proof that Bitcoin Core is work.

773
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:47,380
It's another proof that Bitcoin Core is corrupt.

774
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:54,240
Whereas if you start from the facts and try to derive a conclusion from the facts, there's

775
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:58,360
no way you can reach a conclusion of Bitcoin Core being work.

776
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:09,400
If we understand the walk ideology being collective identity primes over the individuals and everything

777
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,780
that goes with it, Bitcoin Core is the perfect polar opposite.

778
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:17,580
And people that are interested in Bitcoin and spending their life working in Bitcoin

779
00:50:17,580 --> 00:50:21,240
are the polar opposite of this ideology.

780
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:28,580
And interestingly, it's an ideology that I see being pushed more, not by all people,

781
00:50:28,580 --> 00:50:35,420
filter people, but I see there is some recuperation being done by some influential people from

782
00:50:35,420 --> 00:50:40,000
the people being angry at Bitcoin Core, the smell of blood in the water, and they're trying

783
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,860
to do recuperation, which I think is pretty damaging.

784
00:50:43,860 --> 00:50:49,400
And I will be honest, I think Samson Moe is doing this, trying to infiltrate politics

785
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:50,400
into Bitcoin Core.

786
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:56,240
So it's just like, you've got Bitcoin Core that is extremely neutral, changes are made,

787
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:57,740
no matter your ideology.

788
00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:58,720
And sometimes it's hard.

789
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,880
Luke's ideology is terrible, in my opinion.

790
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,760
But if Luke is making good pull requests, his pull requests will be merged, and I will

791
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:06,260
review it.

792
00:51:08,180 --> 00:51:10,260
And this is the standard of Bitcoin Core.

793
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:14,920
And people make the accusation of something neutral, oh, it's politicized, to actually

794
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,000
bring their own politics on top of it.

795
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,860
And I think it's not going to end well if we try to bring politics to be concord.

796
00:51:21,980 --> 00:51:26,540
So when you say the other side is showing some of these ideas of wokeism,

797
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,540
is that essentially cancel culture is what you're seeing?

798
00:51:30,460 --> 00:51:32,320
Yeah, cancel culture is part of it.

799
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:34,860
But it doesn't end there, right?

800
00:51:35,260 --> 00:51:39,360
Wokeism is going to justify violence against individuals,

801
00:51:39,540 --> 00:51:44,040
not because of their actions, but because of the actions of other people.

802
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,760
It's collective responsibility, essentially.

803
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:53,260
So other people that share your identity did this to me, therefore you are going to suffer.

804
00:51:53,260 --> 00:52:01,380
And I think it's terribly wrong, obviously, but you really see it and not from the other

805
00:52:01,380 --> 00:52:02,380
side.

806
00:52:02,380 --> 00:52:06,880
I don't want to characterize everybody that is discounted with Bitcoin Core at the moment

807
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:12,240
has pushing this narrative, but it's definitely one narrative that I see being evolving as

808
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:15,620
As the narrative evolves, it's getting more and more into this.

809
00:52:15,620 --> 00:52:21,380
And actually, Bitcoin Core is not a piece of software that we choose to use and we form

810
00:52:21,380 --> 00:52:22,840
the Bitcoin network.

811
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,780
Actually Bitcoin Core is in control of Bitcoin Core.

812
00:52:26,780 --> 00:52:28,920
It's kind of the Bcash arguments, right?

813
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:34,420
And the maintainers of Bitcoin Core are therefore of kind of the philosopher kings of the Bitcoin

814
00:52:34,420 --> 00:52:35,420
network.

815
00:52:35,420 --> 00:52:37,960
If it was the case, Bitcoin has no interest whatsoever.

816
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,780
You just recreated the same institutions as before.

817
00:52:41,780 --> 00:52:43,920
So this is obviously nonsense.

818
00:52:45,020 --> 00:52:51,800
This is dangerous because then it can be used to justify coercion against developers

819
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,960
because you start by assigning collective identities.

820
00:52:55,420 --> 00:52:56,440
We are the users.

821
00:52:56,980 --> 00:52:59,560
They are the developers, obviously mutually exclusive.

822
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,700
The developers cannot be users of Bitcoin now.

823
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,340
And they are responsible.

824
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:06,400
And we need to have power.

825
00:53:06,740 --> 00:53:07,820
They create a power structure.

826
00:53:08,060 --> 00:53:09,080
They attack the power structure.

827
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:10,740
And they say, there is the power.

828
00:53:10,740 --> 00:53:12,900
We need to have some control of the power.

829
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,820
They need to represent us.

830
00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:17,420
It's just like, what does this hand?

831
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,360
Do they want Bitcoin to be a democracy?

832
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,140
It's just, I don't know.

833
00:53:21,220 --> 00:53:22,780
So I think it's nonsense.

834
00:53:23,020 --> 00:53:25,380
I think we need to stick to Bitcoin Core

835
00:53:25,380 --> 00:53:29,400
working on rough consensus, objective technical facts,

836
00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:32,940
and leave the ideology and the social work

837
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:35,800
outside of the decision for the software.

838
00:53:36,420 --> 00:53:38,960
All right, let's talk about one of the most controversial bits.

839
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,200
in, I don't know, the last few months,

840
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,720
this conversation around illegal

841
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:47,780
or just inappropriate content being put on Bitcoin

842
00:53:47,780 --> 00:53:50,480
and particularly the illegal stuff

843
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,940
being a risk factor for Bitcoin

844
00:53:52,940 --> 00:53:54,360
because if you're running a node,

845
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:55,700
this stuff is on your node,

846
00:53:56,020 --> 00:54:00,600
you are then subject to like the laws.

847
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:07,080
So that has always been an issue with Bitcoin,

848
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,840
an issue, a weakness of Bitcoin,

849
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:11,980
you are going to store other people's data.

850
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:13,600
That's how Bitcoin works.

851
00:54:14,660 --> 00:54:16,640
This is a risk of running a Bitcoin node.

852
00:54:18,060 --> 00:54:21,100
The recent changes have no bearing on this risk.

853
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:24,400
Can I just push back on that in a slight way?

854
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:25,960
You say it has no bearing,

855
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:30,100
but it does mean that entire images

856
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:32,860
rather than broken up images can be put on Bitcoin.

857
00:54:34,140 --> 00:54:36,960
The encoding of data is not going to change

858
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:38,780
the legality of the data.

859
00:54:38,980 --> 00:54:43,240
It's just if you've got child porn in MP4 or in MOV,

860
00:54:43,460 --> 00:54:44,340
it's still child porn.

861
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,460
So when you say it's chunked or it's contiguous,

862
00:54:47,660 --> 00:54:50,720
it's just encoding at the end of the day, first.

863
00:54:51,020 --> 00:54:55,880
And then second, you can also just have contiguous data,

864
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,220
even if it's chunked, using some smart encoding.

865
00:54:59,380 --> 00:55:01,800
Some clever guy on the mailing list proved it,

866
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,820
that it's what Adam Beck brought up yesterday night.

867
00:55:05,820 --> 00:55:09,640
some guy put a penguin image in an inscription.

868
00:55:10,020 --> 00:55:13,140
And you can see if you try to just use it, it's contiguous.

869
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,980
It's just going to have tiny red dots in the middle that you don't even see.

870
00:55:17,420 --> 00:55:22,920
So this contiguous thing, it does not make any sense at all.

871
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:29,280
And I think it's kind of concerning because there is no way,

872
00:55:29,620 --> 00:55:34,200
there's maybe ways, but it would severely damage Bitcoin's utility.

873
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:42,220
to address Bitcoin nodes storing potentially illegal data.

874
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,380
And it's not something that developers can really fix.

875
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,480
It's not something that developers are going to make worse.

876
00:55:50,180 --> 00:55:54,100
But we are going to make it worse by trying to create a narrative around this.

877
00:55:54,620 --> 00:55:56,760
And it comes exactly at the right time.

878
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,340
It's like the shift in CSAM narrative.

879
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:01,760
I took a step back.

880
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:06,960
I was like, we have seen all these attacks on developers.

881
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:13,400
People sometimes don't realize what are our primary concerns as developers.

882
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,640
If you ask anyone in the room here at ChainCode, probably one of the main

883
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,720
concerns is going, I don't want to end in jail.

884
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,320
They have been after developers working on privacy stuff.

885
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,520
Privacy stuff is enabled at the core by Bitcoin.

886
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:37,400
And even if the new administration is maybe more favorable to Bitcoin stuff, they're going

887
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:44,200
to be more favorable to the economy boosts, maybe to the digital gold narrative, but they're

888
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,520
not going to be favorable to anti-KOC, the KYC.

889
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:48,800
They're not going to be favorable to-

890
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:49,800
They've proven that.

891
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:55,140
Like these cases, while brought up like in the previous administration, like the samurai

892
00:56:55,140 --> 00:56:57,520
devs are being charged under the Trump administration.

893
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:58,520
Yes.

894
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,420
And that's very, very concerning.

895
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:06,920
And so I was like, is this shift in narrative trying to get us to incriminate ourselves?

896
00:57:07,540 --> 00:57:12,560
Is it, are they trying to, because at the same time they were like, debate me, debate

897
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:13,200
me, debate me.

898
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:19,280
Do they want me to go on a podcast and say on the mic that it's what we do or something?

899
00:57:19,860 --> 00:57:26,200
But at the end of the day, I think people are not evil unless you have strong evidence

900
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:26,880
that they are.

901
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,960
But you shouldn't just assume that they're all evil.

902
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,120
I think it's just a lack of perspective.

903
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,960
Again, from the two, we're going in parallel

904
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:36,400
and with very little communication

905
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,840
between open source developers

906
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,000
and the wider group of Bitcoiners.

907
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,880
And I think they don't realize how important to us

908
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,200
and scary to us.

909
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:48,720
I think some of them are.

910
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:54,400
Some of them try to call for legal attacks on developers.

911
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,600
Some of these people are just evil.

912
00:57:56,980 --> 00:58:01,900
They know that we have been attacked in the past by fucking clowns.

913
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,900
What is it going to be if we are attacked by actual real people?

914
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:10,340
So is this really a problem without a solution

915
00:58:10,340 --> 00:58:13,280
and just one of the consequences of cypherpunk software?

916
00:58:15,220 --> 00:58:15,420
Yeah.

917
00:58:16,020 --> 00:58:20,020
The storage of data that is illegal.

918
00:58:20,020 --> 00:58:26,260
Fortunately, it's not like the law is completely retarded on the subject either.

919
00:58:26,260 --> 00:58:34,360
It seems, not legal advice, but it seems that the law around illegal material is whether

920
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:40,640
you are trying to view it, where you're trying to download it for the purpose of viewing it,

921
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,960
which is not in the case of Bitcoin, it's just spammers.

922
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:51,200
like spam transactions or trying to carve out some ways of inserting data into transactions.

923
00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:54,860
So it's pretty obvious it's not the purpose of our software.

924
00:58:55,560 --> 00:59:02,600
So I think there would be a very strong case for a net runner to protect himself in court.

925
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:04,520
But it's not a given.

926
00:59:04,740 --> 00:59:07,400
It's like if you're very, very concerned about this stuff.

927
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,100
It's your only answer really just you can't run a node then.

928
00:59:11,580 --> 00:59:11,800
Yeah.

929
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:12,400
Yeah.

930
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:20,340
Okay. Let's talk more deeply about filters. I mean, start with a broad question. Do they work?

931
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:22,080
They work for what?

932
00:59:22,620 --> 00:59:24,080
To stop spam transactions.

933
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:33,620
They don't work to stop spam transactions entirely. They don't work to stop spam transactions to any realistic extent.

934
00:59:33,620 --> 00:59:38,620
They can work to prevent bootstrapping use cases.

935
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,120
For instance, you could make a case that if inscriptions

936
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,760
were non-standard to start with,

937
00:59:46,420 --> 00:59:49,280
maybe this use case would have never been bootstrapped.

938
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,360
And if it was never bootstrapped,

939
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,420
then there would have been no incentive for miners

940
00:59:54,420 --> 00:59:56,620
to change the policy.

941
00:59:56,620 --> 01:00:01,180
And there would have been no hype around it

942
01:00:01,180 --> 01:00:03,600
and so many fees paying the miners.

943
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:04,980
So you could make these arguments.

944
01:00:04,980 --> 01:00:09,980
But once miners have chosen

945
01:00:09,980 --> 01:00:12,160
to put some transaction in their block

946
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,140
and people are willing to pay them for doing so,

947
01:00:16,940 --> 01:00:21,700
you need to change consensus rules or deal with it.

948
01:00:22,740 --> 01:00:25,740
Do you think this does end in a fork and there is?

949
01:00:25,740 --> 01:00:26,580
No.

950
01:00:26,580 --> 01:00:27,460
You don't think so?

951
01:00:27,460 --> 01:00:33,700
Again, the spam is not an existential threat to Bitcoin.

952
01:00:33,700 --> 01:00:37,680
I think there is a lot of dramatization of the topic.

953
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:45,840
But once we get to speak about actual consequential actions, such as a fork, it gives a very strong

954
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:55,480
incentive to people to actually look for objective information to be more rational.

955
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,920
Whereas now, people have a strong incentive to be rational.

956
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,800
They can just yell on Twitter.

957
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:09,600
It's a new vibe, so you can grow your Twitter accounts by just taking a dig at core devs.

958
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,140
And you're actually incentivized to go with the narrative.

959
01:01:12,140 --> 01:01:19,240
But once you have to change the consensus rules on your node, back to rationalization,

960
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:20,380
rational decisions.

961
01:01:20,380 --> 01:01:25,660
And I think in this case, you're going to think, all right, the spam is not going to

962
01:01:25,660 --> 01:01:28,600
make it any more expensive to run a node.

963
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:37,260
The spam is not going to change much for me, except insofar as in the long run, it outbids

964
01:01:37,260 --> 01:01:40,800
financial transactions.

965
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:41,800
But if you think-

966
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:42,800
Which I can't see happening.

967
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:43,800
If you think, yeah.

968
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:50,980
either you can't see a penny. And if it happens, if in two decades, financial transactions do not

969
01:01:50,980 --> 01:01:53,860
count out with fucking JPEGs, then-

970
01:01:53,860 --> 01:01:54,540
What's Bitcoin done?

971
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:55,340
Yes. Exactly.

972
01:01:55,700 --> 01:02:02,960
Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree with that for sure. Okay. So the analogy that is used

973
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,060
all the time from the Knot side is this idea of a lock on your house.

974
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:08,140
Just one more analogy.

975
01:02:08,420 --> 01:02:13,580
Yeah. Another analogy, but let's go with it. So the argument is a lock on your house

976
01:02:13,580 --> 01:02:17,160
doesn't stop a dedicated burglar,

977
01:02:17,380 --> 01:02:19,020
but it does put off people

978
01:02:19,020 --> 01:02:21,260
from actually trying to get into your house.

979
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,480
Do you think that analogy works for filters?

980
01:02:26,220 --> 01:02:26,420
No.

981
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:28,720
No, it does not.

982
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,680
Filters is also kind of newspeak.

983
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,240
It's just local relay policy rules.

984
01:02:37,020 --> 01:02:43,080
So you can stop relaying things for older people,

985
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:58,460
But it not going to prevent them from having them in blocks and you are going to keep accepting the blocks Really the door the lock on your door is closer to consensual if we want to have the analogy But analogies are terrible

986
01:02:58,460 --> 01:03:02,600
when we want to actually understand a subject.

987
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,440
Because we're talking about specifics here.

988
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,340
It's because analogies are useful

989
01:03:06,340 --> 01:03:08,960
when you try to communicate to a large audience

990
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,240
and you just assume the audience is going to give you

991
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,220
like 1% of the brain time, think about the analogy

992
01:03:14,220 --> 01:03:15,800
and be like, oh yeah, it makes sense.

993
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,380
and you're going to win them over.

994
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,160
For anybody that cares about it, actually,

995
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,700
probably your listeners care deeply about this topic.

996
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:26,180
I care deeply about this topic.

997
01:03:26,620 --> 01:03:29,780
So I think we need to refrain from using analogies in this case

998
01:03:29,780 --> 01:03:32,780
because it's just going to reframe the problem into another problem,

999
01:03:32,780 --> 01:03:35,320
and then we can discuss this other problem,

1000
01:03:35,420 --> 01:03:37,460
but it's not the one we're talking about in the first place.

1001
01:03:37,860 --> 01:03:38,420
Yeah, okay.

1002
01:03:38,580 --> 01:03:42,400
And so I think probably a concrete example of why filters

1003
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,060
don't stop these transactions from propagating the network

1004
01:03:45,060 --> 01:03:50,220
is the sub one sat per V byte mining fees.

1005
01:03:50,540 --> 01:03:53,920
So we saw those start happening in the last few months.

1006
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,660
And I would guess that 99 plus percent of nodes

1007
01:03:57,660 --> 01:03:59,660
were not relaying those transactions.

1008
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:04,700
So you have to assume that Notts needs to get to 99 percent

1009
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:07,880
of node implementations to actually allow the filters to work.

1010
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:08,400
Is that correct?

1011
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:09,880
I don't think it is.

1012
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:21,380
I think people really think of Bitcoin as being one network that is very defined and concentrated.

1013
01:04:21,580 --> 01:04:22,640
You have the Bitcoin network.

1014
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:30,240
If you can reach this percentage of nodes on the network, you're going to prevent people from putting stuff in blocks.

1015
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:31,340
It's not the case.

1016
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:36,040
Anybody that wants to put stuff in blocks is just going to use a separate network, for instance.

1017
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:46,860
You can use, for instance, it's very useful to have thoughts, experiments about extremes to think about what would happen.

1018
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:57,000
What would happen if Bitcoin Core stops relaying transactions that pay less than 10,000 cents, 100,000 cents?

1019
01:04:57,300 --> 01:05:02,600
Probably people are going to start just making minimum payment to 10,000 cents, 100,000 cents.

1020
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:08,060
pretty big people are going to start either stop making these payments and use other methods or

1021
01:05:08,060 --> 01:05:14,400
they're just going to use if there is one available another network one bitcoin obviously just what

1022
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:19,240
it's going to do is make the old network irrelevant and you're going to have a new network and and

1023
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:25,960
that's what i mean in rooting around it's just you can have 99 percent of filters in your network

1024
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:30,560
it's just going to make your network irrelevant because so and what you're talking about there is

1025
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:36,760
people going out of band directly to miners or other peer-to-peer network it's like the

1026
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:44,160
the current peer-to-peer network of bitcoin is an emergent uh network of people starting the

1027
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:51,100
bitcoin software interconnecting with each other and if the peers are not useful to your node

1028
01:05:51,100 --> 01:05:55,720
it's like we for instance we have a lot of spy nodes and we have a lot of peers when you're a

1029
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,740
bitcoin node you make connections in the dark when you just spin up you don't know you don't

1030
01:05:59,740 --> 01:06:04,980
have reputations of nodes and you just have peers that are useless to you. So when they're useless,

1031
01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:09,660
you just drop them and you start connecting to new peers. And you can just have the same

1032
01:06:09,660 --> 01:06:14,660
mechanisms when they just don't relay your transaction. You're a Bitcoin user. You want

1033
01:06:14,660 --> 01:06:20,200
Bitcoin Core does not relay your transaction. You use Bitcoin version two or Bitcoin three. And it's

1034
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,980
all going to be compatible because they all use the same consensus rules. It's just going to make

1035
01:06:23,980 --> 01:06:29,380
the peer-to-peer network irrelevant. Okay. So Core30 is not going to be a threat to Bitcoin.

1036
01:06:29,740 --> 01:06:39,160
No, I don't think so. I think Bitcoin Core 30, on the contrary, had brings good improvements for all users.

1037
01:06:40,220 --> 01:06:46,120
And the changes in Core 30 aren't just the mempool policy changes. What else is in it?

1038
01:06:46,120 --> 01:07:14,420
Yeah, thankfully. That's maybe something to underline as well. I'm here talking about this topic. I've been out there on Twitter because it was initially my proposal and I care about people not having misconceptions about stuff. So I was like talking with people that are oftentimes pretty aggressive toward us on Twitter, trying to correct people. So I've been very associated with this change. But it's not the main thing I've done. I didn't even make the change myself.

1039
01:07:14,420 --> 01:07:16,660
I just made the proposal, defended the proposal

1040
01:07:16,660 --> 01:07:19,300
on the technical circle, took a while,

1041
01:07:19,300 --> 01:07:22,700
eventually it got pre-requested, then it took a while,

1042
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:24,460
and now we're finally releasing it.

1043
01:07:24,460 --> 01:07:27,740
But during all this time, I'm doing what I do more,

1044
01:07:27,740 --> 01:07:30,060
which is work on the security issues

1045
01:07:30,060 --> 01:07:31,480
that get reported to us,

1046
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,300
try to find more security bugs myself

1047
01:07:33,300 --> 01:07:35,020
to report to the group,

1048
01:07:35,020 --> 01:07:37,980
work on my B54 for consensus cleanup.

1049
01:07:37,980 --> 01:07:41,020
I've been helping with the Covenant stuff as well.

1050
01:07:41,020 --> 01:07:43,100
With Greg Sanders, we have a new proposal

1051
01:07:43,100 --> 01:07:47,540
called template hash, that is another way to achieve

1052
01:07:47,540 --> 01:07:50,540
the function that is offered by CTV that we believe is better

1053
01:07:50,540 --> 01:07:52,020
and that is currently on the discussion

1054
01:07:52,020 --> 01:07:53,520
whether it's better or it's not.

1055
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,680
So we do a lot of stuff.

1056
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,720
That's very tiny part of what we do.

1057
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,920
So did you ask what else is in core?

1058
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:04,760
Certainly.

1059
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,520
Okay, so I would need to see the release notes,

1060
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:09,600
but I can go through off the top of my head.

1061
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,160
Or anything that's like particularly interesting

1062
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:12,780
to you that's happening.

1063
01:08:12,780 --> 01:08:16,680
So one thing is the package relay made robust.

1064
01:08:17,420 --> 01:08:21,840
So what I mean by this is that in previous situation of Bitcoin Core,

1065
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:23,780
there was work on package relay,

1066
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:28,940
which is making the transaction relay network more usable for Lightning.

1067
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,020
So a second version of Lightning commitment transactions,

1068
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,060
the transactions that build the Lightning channels.

1069
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,020
Currently, they have a lot of inefficiencies

1070
01:08:38,020 --> 01:08:40,400
and more probability to force close

1071
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:44,120
and more complexity associated with them

1072
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:48,140
because of limitations and the Bitcoin network

1073
01:08:48,140 --> 01:08:51,800
and the Bitcoin transaction relay network,

1074
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,160
not the consensus rules.

1075
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:58,880
And one proposal to improve this

1076
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:03,060
was a package relay along with truck,

1077
01:09:03,220 --> 01:09:04,380
if people have heard of it,

1078
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:08,320
TRUC and Ephemeral Anchor and Ephemeral Dust.

1079
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:14,640
That's a whole package of what I call the mempool guys, which is Gloria, Greg Sanders,

1080
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:21,120
and to a lesser extent, Sueas and Peter. These are going to make it possible for Lightning to

1081
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:33,200
to bring substantial improvements to Lightning users. And it was shipped at first in 28 and 29

1082
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,440
with the first version that was less robust,

1083
01:09:36,440 --> 01:09:39,020
that couldn't be used in adversarial scenarios,

1084
01:09:39,020 --> 01:09:42,540
but it was still opportunistically useful for,

1085
01:09:42,540 --> 01:09:45,240
let's say, you don't have a transaction

1086
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,640
that needs to be confirmed in a timely manner.

1087
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,000
It's not security critical, like your wallet,

1088
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,900
an unchain wallet, you can start using these features.

1089
01:09:53,820 --> 01:09:57,140
However, with v30, it's made actually robust

1090
01:09:57,140 --> 01:09:58,800
to use in adversarial situations.

1091
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:02,260
So Lightning can start actually using it

1092
01:10:02,260 --> 01:10:06,020
for their commitment transaction where it's security critical.

1093
01:10:06,020 --> 01:10:11,020
And do we know, is there a firm date of when Deep 30 is going to be released?

1094
01:10:11,020 --> 01:10:17,780
So there is, we try to have firm dates, but it's always subject to bugs that we find in testing

1095
01:10:17,780 --> 01:10:23,540
that we need to backport, potential security issues that when we actually make release candidates,

1096
01:10:23,540 --> 01:10:27,580
more people test and stumble upon that we need to fix before.

1097
01:10:27,580 --> 01:10:32,100
We're very conservative before shipping a binary.

1098
01:10:32,100 --> 01:10:35,280
It's like this release has been baking for,

1099
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:37,860
well, it's been baking for six months of developments,

1100
01:10:37,860 --> 01:10:40,640
but one full month of it has been,

1101
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,420
one month and a half actually, no more features,

1102
01:10:44,420 --> 01:10:47,220
only bug fixes, only testing, only bug fixes,

1103
01:10:47,220 --> 01:10:48,600
and we make a new release candidate,

1104
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,520
and more bug fixes, a new release candidate,

1105
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,160
and eventually when we stop having bug fixes,

1106
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:56,040
we release a final binary.

1107
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:59,760
So the actual release date depends on the duration

1108
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:02,540
for which we don't find bugs at the very end.

1109
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:07,200
But what we target right now is the 10th of October.

1110
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:08,840
So very close.

1111
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:09,780
Very close.

1112
01:11:09,980 --> 01:11:12,140
Finally, it's been exhausting.

1113
01:11:12,380 --> 01:11:15,040
And are you hoping that when this is released,

1114
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,500
you'll be proven right that this is not a threat to Bitcoin in any way

1115
01:11:18,500 --> 01:11:21,600
and this conversation falls by the wayside?

1116
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:22,200
Yeah.

1117
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:40,080
I hope that a lot of people that were caught up in the fearmongering realized that it was just fearmongering and hold people that were spreading this FUD accountable.

1118
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,760
It's like, this guy's been spreading bullshit for six months.

1119
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:48,400
I will take what he says in the future with a grain of salt.

1120
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:50,980
So that's what I hope.

1121
01:11:50,980 --> 01:11:52,860
but I don't need to be proven right

1122
01:11:52,860 --> 01:11:54,140
that it's not going to break Bitcoin.

1123
01:11:54,300 --> 01:11:55,300
It's not going to break Bitcoin.

1124
01:11:55,620 --> 01:11:57,940
I hope that this conversation

1125
01:11:57,940 --> 01:11:59,620
does fall by the wayside as well,

1126
01:11:59,700 --> 01:12:01,080
but I don't see it happening personally.

1127
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:03,840
I think even if you are proven right,

1128
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:05,000
which I think you will be,

1129
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,080
I still think this conversation will be happening.

1130
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,820
I think so,

1131
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:11,200
but I think anybody,

1132
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:16,620
there is a lot of very active people

1133
01:12:16,620 --> 01:12:17,940
on both sides,

1134
01:12:17,940 --> 01:12:22,600
a lot of which are not Bitcoin Core contributors

1135
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,280
or Bitcoin Nuts contributors whatsoever.

1136
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:33,180
And these people will still be engaging on Twitter,

1137
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:39,100
growing their accounts, and you get the dopamine hit.

1138
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:41,640
It's just like you reach to your tribe on Twitter,

1139
01:12:41,860 --> 01:12:43,180
you troll the other side.

1140
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:45,940
So that's continuing to evolve,

1141
01:12:45,940 --> 01:12:52,420
to evolve but i don't think it's going to be to be reaching anybody reasonable whatsoever after

1142
01:12:52,420 --> 01:13:02,820
have been proven wrong it's like very clearly um okay bitcoin 30 uh what else oh the the net travel

1143
01:13:02,820 --> 01:13:13,460
soul maybe uh so historically bitcoin core shipped with a protocol called upnp which is used for

1144
01:13:13,460 --> 01:13:16,280
nodes that are at home that are listening.

1145
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,040
You've got your node at home that is listening for connections,

1146
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:20,840
but because it's behind your router,

1147
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,860
your router acts as a firewall.

1148
01:13:24,860 --> 01:13:29,020
It makes it impossible for people outside to connect to your nodes,

1149
01:13:29,020 --> 01:13:31,220
and you have to open ports on your node.

1150
01:13:31,220 --> 01:13:34,100
It's like a lot of, probably a lot of your listeners are going to be family,

1151
01:13:34,100 --> 01:13:39,840
always open port 8333 on your router and direct it to your node.

1152
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:43,680
So historically, Bitcoin Core shipped with a protocol

1153
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:45,520
that was doing this automatically,

1154
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,160
as long as you were listening on your node,

1155
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:50,080
you can choose not to listen on your node.

1156
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:53,200
But if you were, you could set this option.

1157
01:13:54,400 --> 01:14:01,920
Unfortunately, this protocol was fairly insecure in itself.

1158
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:07,360
It was using unadvisable protocol messages

1159
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:09,780
and encoding was using XML.

1160
01:14:10,500 --> 01:14:14,200
And it was all implemented in a not very secure manner.

1161
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:18,460
And it actually turned out to enable,

1162
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:21,760
to open security vulnerabilities in Bitcoin Core.

1163
01:14:22,660 --> 01:14:25,700
This functionality was disabled for years,

1164
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,180
for almost a decade after we found

1165
01:14:28,180 --> 01:14:31,620
that it has these security vulnerabilities.

1166
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,380
But eventually, because this functionality is so important

1167
01:14:35,380 --> 01:14:37,160
to have diversity on the network,

1168
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:43,440
is you don't want the Bitcoin network to be like Ethereum where 99% of the nodes are in AWS.

1169
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:50,160
You want the Bitcoin network to be robust and diverse from people at home because then the

1170
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:57,040
way the internet is structured, you're going to do the connections coming, going to home networks

1171
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:03,280
are going to be spread from connections going to big data centers. So it's better for resilience of

1172
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:13,200
the network and people have put some efforts into rewriting from scratch in a very secure manner

1173
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:21,920
in Bitcoin Core dysfunctional ID. So this was done last year, it was shipped in 29 as opt-in,

1174
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:28,240
and it's going to be enabled by default in v30 because of the testing we've done with 29. So

1175
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:33,240
So that's, I guess it's a good example of improvement,

1176
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:36,360
of tangible features,

1177
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:41,360
of things that you see a lot of Bitcoin users being like,

1178
01:15:42,180 --> 01:15:43,800
yeah, don't touch Bitcoin.

1179
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:45,960
It's perfect already.

1180
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:49,200
No, it's perfect because of all the disasters

1181
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:51,460
that could have happened that were avoided

1182
01:15:51,460 --> 01:15:53,720
by these people doing this stuff.

1183
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:55,300
Is that one of the things that worries you

1184
01:15:55,300 --> 01:15:57,860
about this conversation in the sense that,

1185
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:02,980
a relatively minor policy change, I don't mean to downplay it,

1186
01:16:03,460 --> 01:16:09,060
is causing this much controversy that it makes things like ossification more likely.

1187
01:16:10,100 --> 01:16:20,860
Yeah, I mean, I would say personally that there is more risk to unadvisable consensus changes to Bitcoin

1188
01:16:20,860 --> 01:16:23,240
than there is risk from ossification.

1189
01:16:23,860 --> 01:16:26,940
However, I think that ossification is suboptimal today.

1190
01:16:26,940 --> 01:16:29,340
Because there are known bugs in core.

1191
01:16:29,580 --> 01:16:34,360
Yeah, there's known bugs in the Bitcoin consensus rules, what I'm working on.

1192
01:16:34,660 --> 01:16:50,820
But there is also very good optimization we could make of features like Lightning and bringing new features at the scripting level to enable more scalability in Bitcoin,

1193
01:16:50,820 --> 01:16:53,260
more privacy preserving protocols,

1194
01:16:53,440 --> 01:16:56,860
and having more flexibility for this layer two protocol designers

1195
01:16:56,860 --> 01:17:00,520
to find the right trade-off with Bitcoin users.

1196
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:03,100
And I think it's also critical to Bitcoin

1197
01:17:03,100 --> 01:17:06,020
that Bitcoiners be able to use Bitcoin in a direct way

1198
01:17:06,020 --> 01:17:08,060
without having to go through third parties.

1199
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:09,920
Makes total sense.

1200
01:17:10,020 --> 01:17:14,240
Okay, I tried to put to you most of the big arguments from the not side.

1201
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:15,520
Do you think there's anything I missed?

1202
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:26,480
Let's think. Because I read a lot of stuff that usually just doesn't make sense to me,

1203
01:17:26,480 --> 01:17:34,800
so I discard it. Contempts from core developers toward node runners, for instance. It's just

1204
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:39,760
nonsense. This is the idea that core see themselves as elite in some way, and they don't have to worry

1205
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,960
about the people actually running the nodes. Yes, I think it's the specific

1206
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,300
things I've read a few times on Twitter

1207
01:17:46,300 --> 01:17:46,780
of

1208
01:17:46,780 --> 01:17:49,680
your node doesn't matter

1209
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,240
as if any

1210
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:53,980
Bitcoin core developers that is

1211
01:17:53,980 --> 01:17:56,200
working full time on your node

1212
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:58,540
has ever said that.

1213
01:17:58,540 --> 01:17:59,740
But I mean

1214
01:17:59,740 --> 01:18:02,320
controversial, but is there some truth that

1215
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,040
a lot of the nodes out there don't matter?

1216
01:18:04,060 --> 01:18:06,360
Because we know that economic nodes are the only ones that are

1217
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:07,680
particularly important.

1218
01:18:07,860 --> 01:18:10,180
Well, they do matter for enforcing consensus rules.

1219
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:12,520
Your node matters to you

1220
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:14,940
I think that's the key distinction.

1221
01:18:15,060 --> 01:18:15,740
It matters to you.

1222
01:18:16,020 --> 01:18:19,440
Yeah, it matters to you to enforce your consensus rules.

1223
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:35,380
And having a lot of individuals enforcing consensus rules themselves on their own without being coordinated brings resilience to being able to make reckless consensus changes to Bitcoin.

1224
01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:37,060
That's what makes Bitcoin's difference.

1225
01:18:37,220 --> 01:18:38,920
So I think it's very, very important.

1226
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:42,620
Nodes are what make Bitcoin different from other shitcoins.

1227
01:18:43,260 --> 01:18:48,820
I think, yeah, I heard Adam say this, or maybe it was not Adam, maybe it was someone else,

1228
01:18:49,180 --> 01:18:52,760
but that your node matters to you for consensus rules.

1229
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,140
Consensus rules are decided by node runners.

1230
01:18:55,840 --> 01:19:01,780
What gets into block, the mining policy, relay policy, is decided by miners, by design of Bitcoin.

1231
01:19:02,340 --> 01:19:03,680
And I think it's a good way to put it.

1232
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:07,880
Your node matters, but just you cannot decide what miners are going to put inside the blocks

1233
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:09,180
as long as the consensus is valid.

1234
01:19:10,100 --> 01:19:10,460
Yes.

1235
01:19:11,020 --> 01:19:11,420
Okay.

1236
01:19:12,780 --> 01:19:13,880
Before we close out,

1237
01:19:14,020 --> 01:19:16,260
anything else that you think we've missed in this?

1238
01:19:16,300 --> 01:19:17,540
Because I want to make sure that we address

1239
01:19:17,540 --> 01:19:19,640
all the big issues that are being thrown up

1240
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,300
from the not side of this debate.

1241
01:19:25,020 --> 01:19:27,260
Yeah, I feel like we could talk more

1242
01:19:27,260 --> 01:19:28,860
about what Bitcoin Core is doing

1243
01:19:28,860 --> 01:19:32,880
and the narrative of the...

1244
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:35,040
Bitcoin is perfect

1245
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:48,560
Because I think that a lot of what the fear mongering was hinging on was that a lot of people have been on boarded in the past three or four years.

1246
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,640
And they were told repeatedly that Bitcoin was perfect already.

1247
01:19:54,640 --> 01:20:04,440
And that from this perspective, I can totally understand how they would think that, sure, you have reasons to tweak some knobs and stuff.

1248
01:20:04,440 --> 01:20:06,800
But why would you even try to do this, developers?

1249
01:20:07,020 --> 01:20:09,400
Just don't touch anything.

1250
01:20:09,900 --> 01:20:12,000
And it's not worth the risk.

1251
01:20:12,540 --> 01:20:16,940
But the reality is that it's really this perspective.

1252
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,680
I've got a friend of mine that told me,

1253
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:22,460
when I hang out with Bitcoiners,

1254
01:20:22,780 --> 01:20:24,940
they're all so overconfident about Bitcoin.

1255
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:27,020
And when I hang out with the developers

1256
01:20:27,020 --> 01:20:28,620
that see all the risk there is

1257
01:20:28,620 --> 01:20:30,920
and all the things that get fixed at the last minute

1258
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:32,380
for the network to continue operating,

1259
01:20:32,380 --> 01:20:35,760
they're all under confidence about the network.

1260
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:37,140
The truth is probably in the middle.

1261
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:39,320
The network is resilient by itself.

1262
01:20:39,460 --> 01:20:41,920
Even if you don't upgrade for a few years,

1263
01:20:42,020 --> 01:20:42,940
it's probably going to be fine.

1264
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:45,920
But it's going to be severely suboptimal.

1265
01:20:46,180 --> 01:20:47,360
Bitcoin is not perfect yet.

1266
01:20:47,460 --> 01:20:50,460
We still have, I think, at least a few consensus changes

1267
01:20:50,460 --> 01:20:54,820
to actually fix the bugs in the consensus rules,

1268
01:20:55,480 --> 01:20:58,040
enable more use cases to make it more possible

1269
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:00,220
to use Bitcoin in a censorship-resistant way.

1270
01:21:00,220 --> 01:21:08,440
And then there is a lot of maintenance of the peer-to-peer network that needs to adapt to the real world conditions that Bitcoin operates in.

1271
01:21:08,700 --> 01:21:10,640
So there is risk to action.

1272
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:12,280
There is risk to inaction.

1273
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:26,100
And the whole thing we do all day is think about the risk, ponders the risk, think about the second order consequences, third order consequences, what could happen in any cases.

1274
01:21:26,100 --> 01:21:32,100
And we try to make the best decision for all Bitcoin users and not trying to make changes

1275
01:21:32,100 --> 01:21:37,420
to appease some particularly loud segment of users.

1276
01:21:37,420 --> 01:21:41,160
We try to think about all people, people that don't have Twitter that are still relying

1277
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:46,140
on Bitcoin for being inflation resistant in their third world country.

1278
01:21:46,140 --> 01:21:52,220
People that just don't have a voice as well that they can have this loud movements.

1279
01:21:52,220 --> 01:21:54,980
Bitcoiners are a minority of Bitcoin users.

1280
01:21:54,980 --> 01:21:55,980
I'm convinced.

1281
01:21:55,980 --> 01:22:00,420
I think Bitcoin users are a much, much, much broader group than Bitcoiners.

1282
01:22:00,480 --> 01:22:02,160
It's not to say that Bitcoiners do not matter.

1283
01:22:02,340 --> 01:22:06,000
I think it's extremely important to keep this community of interest about Bitcoin

1284
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:09,460
because they are doing so much good at large, convincing people,

1285
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:14,400
creating businesses, and contributing to open source software.

1286
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:18,820
And I don't want to minimize it, but we need to keep in mind

1287
01:22:18,820 --> 01:22:21,780
that when Bitcoin core developers work on the software,

1288
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:25,380
they try to think of all Bitcoin users and not only those users

1289
01:22:25,380 --> 01:22:27,160
that have the luxury of spending time on Twitter

1290
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:28,060
and talking about Bitcoin.

1291
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,160
Yeah, I mean, I think your point there

1292
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:32,080
about Bitcoin is thinking it's perfect

1293
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:33,900
and then developers not.

1294
01:22:34,180 --> 01:22:35,640
Matt Corralo is a perfect example of that.

1295
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:38,260
Like whenever I, I use Lightning fairly regularly

1296
01:22:38,260 --> 01:22:40,340
and it like, it works great for me.

1297
01:22:40,440 --> 01:22:41,600
But as soon as you talk to Matt Corralo,

1298
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:43,140
he's like, this thing's broken, it's terrible.

1299
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,500
Like this, I mean, last time actually was interesting

1300
01:22:45,500 --> 01:22:46,960
because the first time I've spoken to him

1301
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:48,420
where he's been like, no, we're actually,

1302
01:22:48,540 --> 01:22:49,580
we're really getting somewhere.

1303
01:22:49,580 --> 01:22:52,940
But I think that absolutely exists.

1304
01:22:52,940 --> 01:22:55,360
Alright, Antoine

1305
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:57,240
this has been amazing

1306
01:22:57,240 --> 01:22:58,400
Thank you

1307
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:02,020
I massively appreciate all the work everyone does on Core

1308
01:23:02,020 --> 01:23:04,300
I'm sure you're not hearing that enough at the moment

1309
01:23:04,300 --> 01:23:06,180
I appreciate your work

1310
01:23:06,180 --> 01:23:08,340
and I appreciate the work that everybody is doing for Bitcoin

1311
01:23:08,340 --> 01:23:10,340
Bitcoin Core is just one piece of it

1312
01:23:10,340 --> 01:23:11,860
Yeah, we're moving this thing forward

1313
01:23:11,860 --> 01:23:14,660
Before we close out, is there anywhere you want to send anyone

1314
01:23:14,660 --> 01:23:16,220
to find out more about you?

1315
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:19,860
I was going to say on my Twitter

1316
01:23:19,860 --> 01:23:20,900
but maybe not

1317
01:23:20,900 --> 01:23:26,660
I've got my website where I post blog posts there.

1318
01:23:27,140 --> 01:23:28,800
It's antoinep.com.

1319
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:29,400
Perfect.

1320
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:30,320
Thank you, Antoine.

1321
01:23:30,500 --> 01:23:30,760
Thanks.