1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,600
It's not hard to bet on companies that are just saying, hey, we're going to pull all the levers we can to buy more Bitcoin.

2
00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:16,640
If you really think Bitcoin becomes a crucial part of the global financial system, these sort of things need to happen.

3
00:00:16,780 --> 00:00:21,100
You need actual Bitcoin financial products and securities and things.

4
00:00:21,220 --> 00:00:25,780
You should be prepared if you're investing in these treasury companies for a very difficult period of time.

5
00:00:25,780 --> 00:00:31,180
If Bitcoin goes up tremendously and our friends and neighbors and family don't have any Bitcoin,

6
00:00:31,580 --> 00:00:33,820
they're going to want to kill us and take our Bitcoin.

7
00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:37,760
I don't want to live in a citadel while people are dying outside the walls of the citadel.

8
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,420
They are getting Bitcoin whether they like it or not.

9
00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:46,120
And we're able to actually put them in a lifeboat because we know the Titanic hit the iceberg two hours ago.

10
00:00:48,980 --> 00:00:52,420
If you already self-custody of Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets.

11
00:00:52,420 --> 00:00:57,380
complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten.

12
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,820
Well, BitKey fixes that. BitKey is a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square

13
00:01:02,820 --> 00:01:08,000
and Cash App. It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an

14
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,720
intuitive, easy-to-use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over. It's simple, secure self-custody

15
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:19,460
without the stress, and time named BitKey one of the best inventions of 2024. Get 20% off at

16
00:01:19,460 --> 00:01:27,420
bitkey.world when you use code WBD. That's B-I-T-K-E-Y.world and use code WBD. One of the things

17
00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:30,840
that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage.

18
00:01:31,420 --> 00:01:35,840
This is where AnchorWatch comes in. With AnchorWatch, your Bitcoin is insured with your own A-plus

19
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,600
rated Lloyds of London insurance policy, and all Bitcoin is held in their time-locked multi-sig

20
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,960
bolts. So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is fully insured while not giving up

21
00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:49,300
custody. So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, wrench attacks, natural disasters,

22
00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:53,960
or just your own mistakes, you're fully protected by AnchorWatch. Rates for fully insured custody

23
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,680
start as low as 0.55% and are available for individual and commercial customers located in

24
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,460
the US. Speak to AnchorWatch today for a quote and for more details about your security options

25
00:02:03,460 --> 00:02:09,240
and coverage. Visit anchorwatch.com today. That is anchorwatch.com. Do you wish you could access

26
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:14,120
cash without selling your Bitcoin? Well, Ledin makes that possible. Ledin are the global leader

27
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,900
in Bitcoin-backed lending and since 2018 they've issued over $9 billion in loans with a perfect

28
00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:23,940
record of protecting client assets. With Ledin you get full custody loans with no credit checks,

29
00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:28,240
no monthly repayments, just easy access to dollars without selling a single sat.

30
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,900
As of July 1st, Ledin is Bitcoin only meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin-backed loans with

31
00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:38,500
all collateral held by Ledin directly or their funding partners. Your Bitcoin is never lent out

32
00:02:38,500 --> 00:02:42,700
to generate interest. I recently took out a loan with Ledin and the whole process couldn't have

33
00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:46,900
been easier. It took me less than 15 minutes to go through the application. And in just a few hours,

34
00:02:46,940 --> 00:02:51,280
I had the dollars in my account. It was super smooth. So if you need cash, but you don't want

35
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,300
to sell Bitcoin, head over to leden.io forward slash WBD and you'll get 25% off your first loan.

36
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:05,100
That's leden.io forward slash WBD. Hoddle the vlogger and Stephen Lubke. How are we doing guys?

37
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,080
Doing great, man. I'm pumped for this. This is going to be, this is going to be awesome. It's

38
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:16,800
us yeah steven the cobbler the cobbler yeah even the cobbler where did that meme come from i've

39
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:24,900
missed this completely so the bitcoin bugle did this uh did this post it was kind of they they

40
00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:31,960
edited our sec filing and said that uh you know nakamoto had a supplied me with a personal cobbler

41
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:39,120
and you won't believe the number of people that took it seriously i mean it was really really wild

42
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,700
uh so it was fun are you saying they didn't give you a cobbler you need to negotiate that contract

43
00:03:44,700 --> 00:03:50,940
bro not yet but i'm hoping after seeing the pr that this cobbler got that you know there's a

44
00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:55,920
little bit of room here i think that needs to be memed into reality huddle how are you doing man

45
00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:02,020
what's with the vlogs you bring in vlogs this is very like early 2000s bro we're vlogging is back

46
00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:07,260
and it's on nostr it's on nostr exclusively so if you want to figure out what's going on with the

47
00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:10,560
vlogs, you gotta fucking come to Noster, bro. I'm not, cause I'm not gonna tell you, man.

48
00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:15,480
This is a tease for a vlog that will happen at a later time on Noster. Download Primal. Check it

49
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,200
out. Have you done your vlog today? Uh, no, I don't do it. I don't do it every day. You know,

50
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,360
somebody was like, uh, Hey man, why don't you just post them on YouTube? And I was like,

51
00:04:25,420 --> 00:04:30,040
because then I would be a YouTuber and that's gay. So no, I'm not doing that.

52
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,520
I don't know what you're saying about me there, man. I'm a, I couldn't do the vlog thing. It's,

53
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,080
It's cringe enough for me doing the clickbait YouTube titles.

54
00:04:38,180 --> 00:04:39,600
I'm not sure I can go full vlog yet.

55
00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:42,620
I don't know what's more cringe, vlogger or podcaster.

56
00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:44,480
You know, I think it's like Sophie's Choice.

57
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,300
You, Hoddle, you were early.

58
00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:49,460
You were early to the podcast meta.

59
00:04:49,460 --> 00:04:54,720
I remember years ago, your thesis, while everyone was criticizing too many podcasts,

60
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,980
was everyone needs more podcasts.

61
00:04:57,180 --> 00:05:00,160
And I think that that turned out really correct over time.

62
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:06,300
Yeah, I was saying, did you have a conversation with a family member in private about Bitcoin?

63
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,860
That could have been a podcast. Why wasn't it a podcast? Why are you not doing enough for Bitcoin?

64
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,920
And then the viewer guys just took that and ran.

65
00:05:14,380 --> 00:05:22,140
Well, and as we now know, you're not just a podcaster, but you're a board member.

66
00:05:23,420 --> 00:05:23,860
Exactly.

67
00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:29,020
It's like the meme in Bitcoin is if you're in it long enough, you become a podcaster, a VC,

68
00:05:29,020 --> 00:05:30,860
and now it's a board member of a treasury company.

69
00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:31,700
Absolutely.

70
00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:35,600
The podcaster to corporate governance board pipeline is,

71
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,660
I mean, it's obvious at this point.

72
00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:41,360
It's a natural evolution that occurred over time.

73
00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:43,900
The best podcasters just really moved up.

74
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:44,940
They had the skillset.

75
00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:47,820
But are there even any Bitcoin podcasts left?

76
00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:49,680
Are we all just Bitcoin treasury podcasts now?

77
00:05:50,980 --> 00:05:52,000
Yeah, that's true.

78
00:05:52,260 --> 00:05:52,660
That's true.

79
00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:54,660
It has been, honestly, like,

80
00:05:54,860 --> 00:05:58,200
I can't tell you the last time I didn't talk about treasury companies on the show.

81
00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:58,600
Really?

82
00:05:59,020 --> 00:06:04,400
I mean, Cali probably because he's a fucking badass, but it gets, I'm super skeptical,

83
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:04,740
Steven.

84
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,620
So I'm going to be like the skeptic here.

85
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,620
But why don't you start by just explaining what's happening with Nakamoto?

86
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:11,080
Yeah, sure.

87
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,640
So we recently completed our merger.

88
00:06:14,860 --> 00:06:15,560
So that's exciting.

89
00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:16,560
That was last week.

90
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,980
And we basically had raised a pipe transaction.

91
00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:27,000
So we raised some money to go public and launch a treasury company.

92
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:39,420
I think the unique thing for Nakamoto is that it's playing on the, let's call it the playbook that UTXO had been running for over the last year.

93
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,960
And that was Metaplanet, SmarterWeb.

94
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,340
It was a lot of these like very, very successful international plays.

95
00:06:47,340 --> 00:06:58,560
And so Nakamoto was in part, that's not the whole thing, but it was an attempt to, you know, run that playbook, run that strategy with more capital and more reach.

96
00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:00,360
And, you know, there's other elements to it.

97
00:07:00,420 --> 00:07:05,300
There's operating businesses and synergies and kind of a lot we're excited to do.

98
00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:09,540
But it's the international thesis kind of playing out.

99
00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:16,080
So U.S. listed, but launching kind of first movers in each international capital market.

100
00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:22,600
Like one of the things that I've been pretty skeptical about on this is the idea of like a Bitcoin treasury company in every jurisdiction.

101
00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:24,440
Because I don't know if they all need it.

102
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,960
Like the way I've kind of looked at this is there's going to be strategy, probably a few others, and then a really long tale of kind of shit.

103
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,960
And like, why do you think every jurisdiction needs its own treasury company?

104
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:43,740
Yeah. So I think the basic thesis and, you know, you could have some edge cases in very small markets where maybe that doesn't play out.

105
00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:48,420
But the basic thesis is that there is a ton of capital.

106
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:58,740
If you're in Brazil, if you're in India, if you're in Japan, there is a ton of capital that cannot easily buy U.S. equities and also, in many cases, can't easily buy Bitcoin.

107
00:07:59,060 --> 00:08:01,420
So these are funds that have mandates.

108
00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:03,600
These are pensions.

109
00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:10,860
These are all sorts of vehicles, retirement accounts that have to invest in kind of local or regional equities.

110
00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:18,020
And then outside of the mandates and the have to, you have it's a it's a it's a pain.

111
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:18,720
It's difficult.

112
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,420
It's like maybe you could, but it's actually very cumbersome.

113
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,280
You have to set up a U.S. brokerage account.

114
00:08:24,380 --> 00:08:25,620
You need a U.S. bank account.

115
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,960
You have to go through certain regulatory hurdles that are different country by country.

116
00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:35,180
And then finally, there's often elements of like a regulatory arbitrage.

117
00:08:35,180 --> 00:08:38,000
So in Japan, people are familiar with this with MetaPlanet.

118
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,500
there was a tax treatment where you got taxed way more heavily on Bitcoin than on equities like

119
00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:50,420
MetaPlanet. And so I think that people focus a lot on kind of the regulatory arbitrage,

120
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:55,200
the tax stuff, and there's many other things besides tax treatments. But I actually think

121
00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:01,440
that the larger pool is there's just a lot of money that can't easily or won't easily leave

122
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:07,800
the country. And so we're pretty high conviction and I'm pretty high conviction that having a

123
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,100
local vehicle and every major capital market is something that'll play out well.

124
00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:15,380
All right. I've got a ton of questions on that, but I want Hoddle's perspective on this.

125
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:21,380
Do you think that like this kind of long tail where it's win or take most is the likely way

126
00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:26,320
this will play out? I think the way you described it is very close to my own thinking about it,

127
00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:30,340
where strategy, if you look at strategy versus the other treasury companies,

128
00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:36,760
you know, the other treasury companies combined, I think, have one tenth of strategy's holdings,

129
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,340
right? So that's, that lets you know that they're the 800 pound gorilla in the room. And what we

130
00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:46,960
know about Bitcoin is that if you go first in size, it's very hard to unseat you, right? Like,

131
00:09:47,260 --> 00:09:52,780
I, you know, uh, as, as good as I think I am at stacking and hodling over the years,

132
00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:56,720
I'm never going to be able to catch up to a person like Wences Cesares or somebody from

133
00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,180
the very early days. They're just in a totally different class than I am. And I think it'll be

134
00:10:00,180 --> 00:10:04,800
the same thing with micro strategy versus the other company. Right. So like, yeah, I think you're

135
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,280
very right. I think a lot of people, I think like, you know, not to be offensive towards Stephen,

136
00:10:09,540 --> 00:10:14,980
but I think Nakamoto is kind of playing for second place. And a lot of, you know, I would put Jack

137
00:10:14,980 --> 00:10:19,560
Mahler's company in the same boat. I would, you know, certain other companies that are spinning up

138
00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:25,240
like Strive. I forget the Strive company, what it's called, but you know, they're all in that

139
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,900
same, like let's play for second category, but second is a big winner. So if you get second or

140
00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:35,820
third place, like you win massively. If you're a treasury company, number 1000, no, you don't win

141
00:10:35,820 --> 00:10:41,020
massively, but second or third, like, you know, there's going to be a lot of spoils for, for those

142
00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:45,580
players in the game. And then I think on the point that Steven was making about the reg arbitrage and

143
00:10:45,580 --> 00:10:49,680
different jurisdictions, et cetera, I'll give you the flip side of that perspective. I think he's

144
00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:53,360
right about that, but I'll give you the flip side about that perspective, which is as an American,

145
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,840
I have exorbitant monetary privilege in the American stock market. And I don't really want

146
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,160
to go into other capital markets. I want to give my money to a company like Nakamoto and have them

147
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:08,420
do it on my behalf. Right. And so I want to go with an American domiciled vehicle with an American

148
00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:12,200
company with American disclosures. And I don't want to have to do the work of going and

149
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,160
diligencing every foreign market on the planet because it's just a headache and a half.

150
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,680
Yeah. See, that's the point that I really agree with. And Stephen, I'd be really curious to hear

151
00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:23,920
your take on this because I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm just trying to understand it

152
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,440
in that like I live in Australia from the UK and in both those places, their own treasury

153
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,920
companies that have popped up and are doing like a local treasury play um but at the same time i

154
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,180
could still just go and buy microstrategy and so like what is the capital you're attracting in

155
00:11:39,180 --> 00:11:42,920
these countries because again with things like smarter web company they obviously did amazingly

156
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:48,740
well they're down quite a lot since like the top but they're on aquis which is a tiny exchange in

157
00:11:48,740 --> 00:11:53,940
the uk like do they actually get retirement account money into that exchange they do there's a ton of

158
00:11:53,940 --> 00:12:01,180
domestic volume. So even with, you know, an OTC ticker listed in the U.S., so there's easy U.S.

159
00:12:01,180 --> 00:12:08,780
access, I think on a lot of days it was 50-50 or 60-40 trading volume. And that was kind of later

160
00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:13,140
on once they had grown. So there's a material chunk of that. And you think the U.S. is a very

161
00:12:13,140 --> 00:12:18,820
big market that really is coming from local players. And, you know, in the U.S., this was

162
00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:24,220
pretty remarkable, I think. And obviously that was UTXO. That wasn't Nakamoto. I'm just kind of

163
00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:28,600
speaking from the outside here. It was before I joined. And it's a different, you know, it's a

164
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:36,180
different entity. But there was a huge kind of local, almost nationalist, like a patriotic element

165
00:12:36,180 --> 00:12:40,160
to it that happened, where in these groups, there was a lot of people that really liked

166
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:48,220
the fact that it was a British company, a UK company with UK operators, and they wanted to

167
00:12:48,220 --> 00:12:55,960
support something locally. That's even more true right in Japan, right? In Japan, they love that

168
00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:02,520
Metaplanet is a Japanese company, and they would much rather give their money to a Japanese company

169
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:07,960
than to MicroStrategy, assuming, you know, quality is there and those sort of things.

170
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:15,520
And so I think both we see that kind of observationally in the discourse. You also

171
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,940
see it in the trading volume, but there is a real, it's not just a thesis. There really is

172
00:13:20,940 --> 00:13:28,700
capital that comes from those jurisdictions and goes to these vehicles. And I want to echo

173
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:33,740
something David said, like, yeah, our goal is second place. Like our goal is not,

174
00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:38,540
we're not coming here saying, oh, Michael Saylor, you know, da-da-da-da-da. Like what

175
00:13:38,540 --> 00:13:44,180
HODL said is correct. It's like, when you have that much of a lead, that's a huge lead. That's

176
00:13:44,180 --> 00:13:52,280
difficult to surmount and but to get second or to get third that's a huge like that's a huge

177
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,220
accomplishment right you don't have to say like oh yeah this is gonna this is gonna overtake strategy

178
00:13:57,220 --> 00:14:03,960
uh it just has to be this is gonna be an effective vehicle for accumulating bitcoin at scale and also

179
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:10,740
bitcoin's gonna go up over time so is the planet nakamoto to obviously you're investing in all

180
00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:15,220
these companies all over the world. But are you also running your own Bitcoin strategy in the US?

181
00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:24,500
Correct. Yeah, absolutely. So we have the US NASDAQ listed vehicle that is, and I should be,

182
00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:29,620
it's Kindly MD is the current listed name. And I should be clear about that.

183
00:14:30,780 --> 00:14:37,620
But we plan to run the full treasury playbook. So raising capital, buying Bitcoin on the balance

184
00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:43,360
sheet, you know, taking on debt, buying more Bitcoin, these sort of things. The difference is

185
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,060
that while we're running that playbook, we're also going to take a percentage, like a portion

186
00:14:48,060 --> 00:14:54,660
of that Bitcoin on the balance sheet, and we're going to deploy it in kind of equity investments

187
00:14:54,660 --> 00:15:00,860
or other investments in these international jurisdictions or other strategies. So I think

188
00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:06,340
we're going to be more active is what I will say. Like we definitely are going to be a little bit

189
00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:10,700
more active while still conservative. It's not like the whole balance sheet gets deployed. And

190
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:16,220
even on a regulatory basis, we couldn't do that if we wanted to. But we're going to be a little

191
00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:21,620
bit more active. And I think that'll be interesting as I think more of that comes to market.

192
00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:26,180
So the plan there, I assume, is to be higher leverage than the rest of them, because you're

193
00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:29,800
not only doing your own treasury play, but you're investing in others. And so I assume that's your

194
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,160
plan to get to second place. Yeah, I think we do want to be higher leverage. I actually think

195
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,240
micro strat, I think Saylor would agree with this, but I think micro strategy is actually

196
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:44,120
under levered. And a lot of what they've been trying to do has actually been to get more

197
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:49,580
leverage. If he could sell five times as many preferreds and raise the leverage ratio, I think

198
00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:54,400
he'd do that in a heartbeat. And when you think about the concept of having leverage in one of

199
00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:02,360
these vehicles, that's actually very self-reinforcing to the MNAV. Like if you have embedded leverage

200
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,800
that is cheaper than what an individual can get,

201
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,460
it makes sense you're paying a bit more for that vehicle

202
00:16:09,460 --> 00:16:11,580
because you're acquiring the leverage with it.

203
00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:13,700
Hold on.

204
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,180
Again, we're kind of talking on behalf of you here, Stephen,

205
00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:20,140
but do you think the risk there with that strategy

206
00:16:20,140 --> 00:16:22,080
is that this is going to be a long tail,

207
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,780
there's a lot of stuff that's going to fall by the wayside,

208
00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:25,020
and by investing in those,

209
00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,080
you're adding quite a lot of risk to the business?

210
00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:29,360
Yeah, absolutely.

211
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,740
I mean, listen, higher leverage, higher risk, right?

212
00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:39,600
Like, I think that, you know, I'm sure Steven will admit this, that like, it absolutely is a higher risk play than something like MicroStrategy.

213
00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:47,120
And when you, if you're an investor, I think the question you have in your mind is like, okay, MicroStrategy seems like a guaranteed winner.

214
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,360
Seems like there's kind of consensus about that.

215
00:16:49,420 --> 00:16:57,220
And like, I feel confident, you know, I've owned MicroStrategy now for five years and it's performed very well, despite, you know, all the recent drama on Twitter.

216
00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:00,340
there's a lot of new investors in MicroStrategy who are like,

217
00:17:00,340 --> 00:17:03,040
what the hell, man? I thought this was lever below Bitcoin.

218
00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:05,980
What the fuck, dude? It was supposed to go up more, bro.

219
00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:08,180
We can talk about that in a minute.

220
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,840
But for me as a long-term holder of MicroStrategy,

221
00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:12,740
I've been very happy with its performance,

222
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,640
and I will just continue to hold it into the future.

223
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:19,060
Full disclosure, I do also own some NACA,

224
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,500
and I view NACA as a fast horse in the race.

225
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:33,660
But if NACA, you know, underperformed over some medium period of time because of some of these risk factors, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me.

226
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,380
Now, I do have like a decent degree of confidence in leadership.

227
00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:48,380
But when you know, when you're taking a bet on these are two completely different things, like Saylor has shown that he's, you know, genius savant level at financial engineering and financialization.

228
00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:50,800
I mean, nobody is better at him than that.

229
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:55,460
And if you're going to compete with him, you got to not only do that well, but you are going

230
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:57,180
to have to differentiate yourself from him.

231
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,580
And I think some of the interesting things about guys like Nakamoto or Jack Maulers is

232
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:03,700
that these are more Bitcoin nativist.

233
00:18:03,820 --> 00:18:07,480
If we're going to one piece of criticism I would give MicroStrategy and Saylor, even

234
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,160
though they've been lighting the world on fire, is that every time they try and do something

235
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:16,700
endogenous to Bitcoin, some type of Bitcoin, you know, technology play, it seems to kind

236
00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:18,120
of fizzle out, not really go anywhere.

237
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,480
Everything they've announced, you know, they had like a digital identity announcement.

238
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,360
I mean, there was a business analytics announcement.

239
00:18:24,460 --> 00:18:25,440
Where do these things kind of go?

240
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,120
They just kind of fizzle off into nothing.

241
00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:38,260
And I think that's like actually an opportunity for the young guys who are coming up, like, you know, Stephen and David or like Jack, you know, or some of the guys that are, you know, working over at Strive.

242
00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:42,040
Like, there are opportunities there to differentiate themselves from MSTR.

243
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:46,300
And those that do it correctly are going to, you know, they're going to print money.

244
00:18:46,380 --> 00:18:47,860
They're going to make, they're going to get very rich.

245
00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:54,800
but obviously like walking the tightrope is difficult and you can fall and that's you know

246
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,560
something that investors should be aware of i think do you have plans to do like any bitcoin

247
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,600
like have a bitcoin business model within this as well as just doing the treasury plays

248
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:09,560
we absolutely do and that's another point of kind of differentiation here uh and i think it's an

249
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:15,280
important one in the long term so i think just speaking theoretically i think the end state of

250
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:22,620
treasury companies is they need to find a way to either to synergize the balance sheet with

251
00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:26,420
operating businesses. Like I'm not, I don't know when that is, maybe that's five years,

252
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:32,160
10 years, who knows. But at the end of the day, this kind of current opportunity compresses.

253
00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:36,740
And then it's like, okay, well, what do you do with this balance sheet? You've got, you know,

254
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:40,520
hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin. How are you going to leverage that? I don't mean leverage,

255
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,180
but how are you going to use that to drive returns, to drive cash flow?

256
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,580
And that's actually where, to Hoddle's point,

257
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:55,420
it's valuable to have a company that is like operators in the Bitcoin industry

258
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:59,020
that actually are from the industry, that know how the industry operates,

259
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:05,620
that have a track record, because there's a better capacity to not just achieve,

260
00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:11,720
but also think about that transition and setting up for it and having those,

261
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,720
like even to achieve Bitcoin denominated cash flows, where the more Bitcoin goes up,

262
00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:23,520
the larger those cash flows go. To us, that's like the gold standard, right? If you can really

263
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:30,620
do that well, that's way better than like uncorrelated operating businesses that, you know,

264
00:20:30,620 --> 00:20:47,020
I just don't track Bitcoin performance at all. So one thing that's very simple is as part of the transaction, we have an option to acquire BTC Inc. and UTXO. And so obviously that's the conference, that's the media business, asset management.

265
00:20:47,020 --> 00:20:57,320
So that's kind of something that is already known to the market and on the table of kind of rolling that in and and also working to synergize that and also working.

266
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:06,540
Hey, you know, I I'm adjusting to the public company role and you're limited in what you can say if I'm speaking a little differently than usual.

267
00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:17,780
But what I would say there is that, like, if you think about having a network of treasury companies and you think about the existing business, contemplate what synergies you could do there.

268
00:21:17,860 --> 00:21:22,260
There's a long list of things you could do that would cause those to enhance the growth.

269
00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:24,880
So that's that's one part of it.

270
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:40,193
Another part of it is actually looking at like M activity and saying hey are there Bitcoin businesses that we could acquire that are going to synergize with the balance sheet or the activities of Nakamoto and you know

271
00:21:40,233 --> 00:21:45,713
make this just increase that kind of operating revenue. And so, yeah, that's a goal for us.

272
00:21:45,713 --> 00:21:51,053
I think that's important long term. And while I don't want to state that as like the number one

273
00:21:51,053 --> 00:21:55,953
priority in the short term, obviously, the top priority is buy more Bitcoin and get more Bitcoin

274
00:21:55,953 --> 00:22:00,813
on the balance sheet. That's absolutely something we're looking at. Yeah, it's funny because I

275
00:22:00,813 --> 00:22:04,072
totally agree that long term, these treasury companies are going to have to have a business

276
00:22:04,072 --> 00:22:08,273
model that probably has to be a Bitcoin business model. But right now, it seems like they're just

277
00:22:08,273 --> 00:22:11,713
kind of memes. I don't know if you agree with that, but it's paper Bitcoin summer, bro.

278
00:22:12,832 --> 00:22:18,493
I think it's, well, you know, I'm a big paper Bitcoin summer fan. And I think memes are powerful,

279
00:22:18,493 --> 00:22:25,673
but it's, I think it's more than memes. I have to say that. And the reason it's mostly Bitcoin

280
00:22:25,673 --> 00:22:33,193
acquisition now is because like, think about you have capital. What's the best return you're going

281
00:22:33,193 --> 00:22:38,133
to get on that capital? Is it buying Bitcoin or is it investing in an operating business? Like

282
00:22:38,133 --> 00:22:43,572
what's the rate of return going to be? And the thing is at this stage in Bitcoin, it's very hard

283
00:22:43,572 --> 00:22:50,572
to outperform Bitcoin. So it's rational, I think, for a lot of these businesses to say, hey, on an

284
00:22:50,572 --> 00:22:56,813
incremental $100 million, we're going to just buy the Bitcoin. And later on, that math might change,

285
00:22:56,832 --> 00:23:01,153
and I expect it will change, it will have to change. So this isn't like a permanent state.

286
00:23:01,673 --> 00:23:05,932
But I think it makes sense that right now, we're in a bit of a land rush. And it's saying, hey,

287
00:23:05,973 --> 00:23:10,592
it's a bit of a it's a race right now. Who's going to be number two? Who's going to be number

288
00:23:10,592 --> 00:23:15,513
three? How much Bitcoin can you accumulate? And that's just the phase we're in. I think I think

289
00:23:15,513 --> 00:23:25,753
I understand why people have kind of hesitations there, but I think you just need to understand that, yes, that doesn't last forever, but it also could last for a while.

290
00:23:27,072 --> 00:23:30,213
On the M&A thing, I think something may have just clicked for me.

291
00:23:30,352 --> 00:23:36,753
When you're investing in all these treasury companies in different jurisdictions, obviously some of these are going to be big, some will be small.

292
00:23:37,053 --> 00:23:41,273
And at some point, we're going to see a load of treasury companies start trading at a discount, in my opinion, I think.

293
00:23:41,273 --> 00:23:46,393
Like, would your plan there on the M&A side be to acquire those treasury companies and

294
00:23:46,393 --> 00:23:48,313
essentially stack Bitcoin at a discount as well?

295
00:23:49,453 --> 00:23:52,773
So it's definitely an option that's available to us.

296
00:23:52,873 --> 00:23:57,753
Either treasury companies, there's even, there's a lot of companies actually that have

297
00:23:57,753 --> 00:23:58,973
Bitcoin on the balance sheet.

298
00:23:58,973 --> 00:24:04,293
So basically the angle there is whether it's a treasury company or another entity that

299
00:24:04,293 --> 00:24:10,653
you could acquire Bitcoin through that or acquire a business and Bitcoin.

300
00:24:11,273 --> 00:24:13,513
Those are options that are available to us.

301
00:24:13,633 --> 00:24:17,112
Obviously, it depends on when that moment is in the market.

302
00:24:19,633 --> 00:24:20,852
There's a challenge.

303
00:24:26,112 --> 00:24:28,592
There's a balancing act for those companies.

304
00:24:28,793 --> 00:24:32,092
From the perspective of the company that's trading at a discount,

305
00:24:32,673 --> 00:24:36,673
generally, they could probably sell the Bitcoin close to market price

306
00:24:36,673 --> 00:24:41,213
unless they had enough Bitcoin where they're worried about slippage.

307
00:24:41,273 --> 00:24:42,953
and they're worried about moving the market.

308
00:24:43,273 --> 00:24:46,713
And so if you really have a decent chunk of it,

309
00:24:47,033 --> 00:24:50,592
then it probably makes sense to entertain a buyout offer.

310
00:24:50,773 --> 00:24:51,773
It makes sense to be like,

311
00:24:51,813 --> 00:24:54,693
hey, just come in and buy this whole amount.

312
00:24:54,832 --> 00:24:56,453
I don't want to bring this to the market.

313
00:24:57,953 --> 00:24:59,773
But if it's a tiny one,

314
00:24:59,773 --> 00:25:01,852
I think they probably just sell it.

315
00:25:02,013 --> 00:25:04,473
They can get market price,

316
00:25:04,592 --> 00:25:06,033
unless there's other complications.

317
00:25:06,852 --> 00:25:08,473
Bitcoin is absolutely ripping.

318
00:25:08,793 --> 00:25:09,813
And in every bull market,

319
00:25:09,813 --> 00:25:14,572
there's always a new wave of investors and with it a flood of new companies, new products and new

320
00:25:14,572 --> 00:25:18,413
promises. But if you've been around long enough you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them.

321
00:25:18,832 --> 00:25:23,332
Some cut corners, take risks with your money or just disappear. That's why when it comes to buying

322
00:25:23,332 --> 00:25:27,933
Bitcoin the only exchange I recommend is River. They deeply care about doing things right for

323
00:25:27,933 --> 00:25:32,753
their clients and are built to last with security and transparency at their core. With River you

324
00:25:32,753 --> 00:25:36,973
have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin is held in multi-sig cold storage and it's the only

325
00:25:36,973 --> 00:25:41,673
Bitcoin-only exchange in the US with proof of reserves. There really is no better place to buy

326
00:25:41,673 --> 00:25:47,352
Bitcoin, so to open an account today, head over to river.com forward slash WBD and earn up to $100

327
00:25:47,352 --> 00:25:53,373
in Bitcoin when you buy. That's river.com forward slash WBD. What if you could lower your tax bill

328
00:25:53,373 --> 00:25:58,693
and stack Bitcoin at the same time? Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can. New tax

329
00:25:58,693 --> 00:26:02,813
guidelines from the Big Beautiful Bill allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost

330
00:26:02,813 --> 00:26:08,592
to their mining hardware in a single tax year. That's right, 100% write-off. If you have 100k in

331
00:26:08,592 --> 00:26:14,332
capital gains or income, you can purchase 100k of miners and offset it entirely. Blockware's

332
00:26:14,332 --> 00:26:18,433
mining as a service enables you to start mining Bitcoin right now without lifting a finger.

333
00:26:18,973 --> 00:26:23,332
Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low-cost power to configuring

334
00:26:23,332 --> 00:26:28,592
the mining pool, they do it all. You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also

335
00:26:28,592 --> 00:26:34,572
saving big come tax season. Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward

336
00:26:34,572 --> 00:26:39,653
slash WBD and for every hosted miner purchased you get one week of free hosting and electricity.

337
00:26:40,373 --> 00:26:45,852
Of course none of this is tax advice. Speak with Blockware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com

338
00:26:45,852 --> 00:26:51,253
forward slash WBD. This episode is brought to you by the massive legends Iron, the largest

339
00:26:51,253 --> 00:26:56,072
NASDAQ listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy. Iron are not just powering the Bitcoin

340
00:26:56,072 --> 00:27:00,713
network, they're also providing cutting edge computing resources for AI, all backed by renewable

341
00:27:00,713 --> 00:27:04,633
energy. We've been working with their founders, Dan and Will, for quite some time now and have

342
00:27:04,633 --> 00:27:08,533
been really impressed with their values, especially their commitment to local communities and

343
00:27:08,533 --> 00:27:12,773
sustainable computing power. So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI

344
00:27:12,773 --> 00:27:19,193
compute power, IREN is setting the standard. Visit iren.com to learn more, which is I-R-E-N.com.

345
00:27:19,973 --> 00:27:23,393
So I definitely want to get into what happens in a bear market with these things. But

346
00:27:23,393 --> 00:27:26,933
HODL, before we do, like Bitcoin price is down like 7% or something.

347
00:27:27,072 --> 00:27:30,393
It's like a tiny, tiny drop for a bull market, but people are freaking out.

348
00:27:31,092 --> 00:27:34,973
And I don't know, the read I have from that is that people are too exposed to treasury

349
00:27:34,973 --> 00:27:37,332
companies, which have been pretty slammed over the last few months.

350
00:27:37,693 --> 00:27:39,352
Like, how do you take that in?

351
00:27:40,033 --> 00:27:41,673
There's definitely some of that going on.

352
00:27:41,773 --> 00:27:44,413
I think, you know, you have this perspective with treasury companies.

353
00:27:44,832 --> 00:27:48,173
You know, part of my thesis has been that there's a bubble forming in treasury companies.

354
00:27:49,013 --> 00:27:53,092
And, you know, when I say that, people give me this pushback where they go, well, I don't

355
00:27:53,092 --> 00:27:57,612
see it. Like they're not taking too much leverage. There's only 60,000 coins that are outside of

356
00:27:57,612 --> 00:28:01,612
microstrategy. Like where's the bubble? And it's like, that's fair. I think we're in the infancy

357
00:28:01,612 --> 00:28:05,973
of a bubble. I think this is like zygote stage of a bubble. Right. But I think the bubble is going

358
00:28:05,973 --> 00:28:11,993
to grow because I think the average investor, what do they really want now that they understand?

359
00:28:12,112 --> 00:28:16,293
Like the Bitcoin story is implicit in the hearts and minds of almost everybody I talked to who's

360
00:28:16,293 --> 00:28:21,213
under 45 years of age now at this point, that's a new phenomenon. Like I went out for drinks with

361
00:28:21,213 --> 00:28:25,673
some friends and every single person, these are guys I know from high school, every single

362
00:28:25,673 --> 00:28:30,133
person at the bar knew the price of Bitcoin without me mentioning it or bringing it up.

363
00:28:30,553 --> 00:28:31,953
That's a big, that's a big deal.

364
00:28:32,033 --> 00:28:33,453
It's the first time that's ever happened.

365
00:28:33,453 --> 00:28:38,653
And I'm now noticing that people have realized they watched Bitcoin go from nothing to $100,000

366
00:28:38,653 --> 00:28:41,592
and they realize that the Bitcoin story is going to happen.

367
00:28:41,973 --> 00:28:45,653
But for some reason, they have a cognitive bias where they think that they are not going

368
00:28:45,653 --> 00:28:47,592
to be a participant in the Bitcoin story.

369
00:28:47,592 --> 00:28:52,092
So for those that do choose to participate in the Bitcoin story, what's their next thought?

370
00:28:52,553 --> 00:28:53,313
I'm late.

371
00:28:53,673 --> 00:28:54,673
I need to catch up.

372
00:28:55,133 --> 00:28:56,173
How do you catch up?

373
00:28:56,313 --> 00:28:57,092
With leverage.

374
00:28:57,293 --> 00:28:58,733
What are the Bitcoin treasury companies?

375
00:28:59,092 --> 00:28:59,773
Levered Bitcoin.

376
00:29:00,193 --> 00:29:04,713
So, you know, there's this sort of idea, I think, amongst the public, especially retail

377
00:29:04,713 --> 00:29:07,933
investors, that, you know, these treasury companies can be like a time machine back

378
00:29:07,933 --> 00:29:10,092
to 2017 Bitcoin prices.

379
00:29:10,352 --> 00:29:14,633
And that idea, I think, is the ember that grows into a massive bubble.

380
00:29:14,633 --> 00:29:19,332
And also, you know, Bitcoin is an idea whose time has come, and the market's starting to realize that.

381
00:29:19,773 --> 00:29:25,653
Similarly, you look back in history to, like, the dot-com bubble, the internet was an idea whose time had come,

382
00:29:25,713 --> 00:29:29,493
and everybody could see the value of the internet, but the internet had not yet been built out.

383
00:29:29,753 --> 00:29:36,572
And some of the promises of the internet that would later be real, like YouTube, which, you know, Mark Cuban was selling as broadcast.com,

384
00:29:36,572 --> 00:29:43,393
they were these kind of janky versions, or like, you know, Pets.com eventually became Chewy, and it sold to PetSmart for $3 billion.

385
00:29:43,393 --> 00:29:48,092
dollars. But like back in 1997, there was no ability to ship bags of dog food through the

386
00:29:48,092 --> 00:29:52,653
mail. Right. So like whenever there's a big Leviathan idea, like this new network that is

387
00:29:52,653 --> 00:29:57,653
Bitcoin, the Internet of Money, the public is not stupid. Eventually they get wise to what's

388
00:29:57,653 --> 00:30:01,813
happening. I think that's happening now. And, you know, that's why I say we're in the infancy of a

389
00:30:01,813 --> 00:30:05,913
bubble here. They get wise to what's happening. And then they start to go through the same

390
00:30:05,913 --> 00:30:08,993
machinations that those of us who've been in Bitcoin for a while have been going through the

391
00:30:08,993 --> 00:30:12,933
last 10 or 15 years where you go, oh, shit, Bitcoin's going to change everything. It's going

392
00:30:12,933 --> 00:30:16,313
to do this. It's going to do that. It's going to do this other thing. And then what happens?

393
00:30:16,733 --> 00:30:22,352
People come along to sell you those dreams for cash. I'm not saying that Nakamoto or Steven are

394
00:30:22,352 --> 00:30:27,092
doing that, but I'm saying there will be companies that are going to do that. And that is going to be

395
00:30:27,092 --> 00:30:34,693
like sort of the formation of the bubble. Every, every big new idea ever resulted in like what you

396
00:30:34,693 --> 00:30:38,153
can call a bubble, like, you know, and really, what do we mean by a bubble? We need a market that

397
00:30:38,153 --> 00:30:43,953
goes way up and eventually contracts because it went up so high. But like HODL was saying with

398
00:30:43,953 --> 00:30:52,213
the internet, it's not that the internet wasn't a world-changing trend. It's just that it's

399
00:30:52,213 --> 00:30:59,473
rational from the perspective of the market. When there is a big new idea, what the market does is

400
00:30:59,473 --> 00:31:05,493
saying, hey, let's invest. Let's bring as much capital as we can as fast as we can to this.

401
00:31:05,493 --> 00:31:32,513
And we're going to push the boundaries and we're going to find the limits and we're going to find what works and we're going to find what doesn't work. And then we're going to cull all the stuff that doesn't work. And we're going to we're going to double down on the winners and the survivors. And that's like there's an economic logic to that. And it happened with the Internet. It happened with railroads. It happened telecom. It also happens with financial structures, investment trust, leverage buyouts, mortgage trust.

402
00:31:32,513 --> 00:31:48,092
So it's not just hard technology, but sometimes people invent new financial structures that are just like how to package investments in capitals, new forms of securities, REITs, private equity.

403
00:31:48,513 --> 00:31:59,413
The roots of private equity and the roots of REITs both found themselves like were created in what you could call bubbles in financial instruments.

404
00:31:59,413 --> 00:32:25,413
It wasn't so much that it was technology. It's that people were packaging assets in new forms, getting a premium on those assets and using that to raise capital and grow. It's a similar angle. I'm not saying those are exactly the same or it will end the same way, etc. I'm just saying that financial structures are economically valuable just as much as technology because they allow capital coordination.

405
00:32:25,413 --> 00:32:35,393
And so it's like it's natural, I think, to assume if there is a big new idea and it's a winner, there is going to be this enthusiasm that comes into the market.

406
00:32:35,893 --> 00:32:40,793
And it's reasonable, I think, to expect a lot of investor interest.

407
00:32:42,173 --> 00:32:48,053
But I also agree with Hodl that like we're in the we're in the early stage of that.

408
00:32:48,053 --> 00:32:49,213
Like he made a point.

409
00:32:49,352 --> 00:32:52,753
There's like 60,000 coins outside of micro strategy.

410
00:32:52,753 --> 00:33:10,733
Treasury companies have not, as a group, deployed capital at scale yet. So to say that this is the zenith, I think isn't right. I think this is a big idea.

411
00:33:10,733 --> 00:33:19,373
And it fundamentally is leveraging the structure of public markets to deliver a growth rate.

412
00:33:20,153 --> 00:33:24,033
And the structure of public markets doesn't change anytime soon.

413
00:33:24,233 --> 00:33:26,433
And I don't think Bitcoin stops going up.

414
00:33:26,693 --> 00:33:35,473
And so as long as Bitcoin keeps going up, and as long as a public company can access financial tools that an individual cannot access,

415
00:33:35,473 --> 00:33:42,193
there's a very straightforward way to deliver incremental returns.

416
00:33:43,153 --> 00:33:49,413
I think my friend, Bitcoin Tina, actually is the one who nailed this when he had a heart.

417
00:33:49,653 --> 00:33:51,612
His thesis was called The Hardest Trade.

418
00:33:52,133 --> 00:33:56,913
And the core of that thesis was that Bitcoin is going to bore you to a million dollars.

419
00:33:57,473 --> 00:34:00,013
I think that's what we're living through now.

420
00:34:00,112 --> 00:34:05,253
And I think actually, Bitcoin Tina's story is that he sold a lot of his money.

421
00:34:05,253 --> 00:34:06,612
he got scared and sold a lot of his coins.

422
00:34:07,393 --> 00:34:08,693
It really was the hardest trade for him.

423
00:34:09,193 --> 00:34:11,332
Yeah, I think it's ironic or, you know,

424
00:34:11,633 --> 00:34:13,373
it's sort of a Greek tragedy in the sense

425
00:34:13,373 --> 00:34:15,193
that the hardest trade was literally so hard

426
00:34:15,193 --> 00:34:17,073
the man who coined the hardest trade

427
00:34:17,073 --> 00:34:18,933
couldn't hold through the trade, right?

428
00:34:18,993 --> 00:34:21,393
So, like, it's gonna be a very long, you know,

429
00:34:21,453 --> 00:34:23,532
there's an old saying, idiom in Wall Street

430
00:34:23,532 --> 00:34:25,693
called wear them out, scare them out.

431
00:34:26,153 --> 00:34:28,793
And, you know, I think something that we've been grappling

432
00:34:28,793 --> 00:34:32,032
with in Bitcoin this year during this, like, bull market,

433
00:34:32,153 --> 00:34:34,093
this hasn't really been much of anything in my opinion,

434
00:34:34,093 --> 00:34:37,613
but like something we've been grappling with is we don't understand what's happening

435
00:34:37,613 --> 00:34:42,413
and that's okay and I'm just going to admit that freely is like I don't understand how the

436
00:34:42,413 --> 00:34:46,493
Wall Street guys think I don't understand what they're doing I don't understand the way they

437
00:34:46,493 --> 00:34:50,793
move capital I don't understand the way they trade these markets or the way they view them

438
00:34:50,793 --> 00:34:55,252
over a short medium or a long time frame and none of them talk to me they don't call me on the phone

439
00:34:55,252 --> 00:34:59,532
and say bro I think whereas I have a lot of conversation with four-year cycle guys who are

440
00:34:59,532 --> 00:35:01,373
like, dude, it's got to uptober.

441
00:35:01,633 --> 00:35:02,332
It's got to go up.

442
00:35:02,552 --> 00:35:03,573
It always does, man.

443
00:35:03,613 --> 00:35:04,813
It's always got to go up in October.

444
00:35:05,212 --> 00:35:10,793
So I think that we need to break off a slice of humble pie and say, we're in a new phase

445
00:35:10,793 --> 00:35:15,673
of Bitcoin, the financialization of Bitcoin, a broader part of the speculative attack,

446
00:35:15,732 --> 00:35:16,252
if you will.

447
00:35:16,313 --> 00:35:19,933
And these treasury companies are a symptom of what's going on.

448
00:35:20,252 --> 00:35:27,093
And I think we need to just sit back and look and say, maybe our map is not matching the

449
00:35:27,093 --> 00:35:33,013
territory anymore and we need a new map you know it's funny because i totally agree with you i i've

450
00:35:33,013 --> 00:35:36,593
called this bull market boring a load of times and i speak to checkmate pretty regularly he's a good

451
00:35:36,593 --> 00:35:41,993
friend of mine and he's always like you just you just need to like manage your expectations because

452
00:35:41,993 --> 00:35:46,113
this is now like we're in a different world at this point i think um but i want you to to convince

453
00:35:46,113 --> 00:35:49,893
me something because you're both saying you think this is like the early site like stage of this

454
00:35:49,893 --> 00:35:55,193
cycle this bubble um in my opinion and i could be completely wrong here we're much later in that

455
00:35:55,193 --> 00:36:01,173
cycle than i think people understand um but like we've seen mnavs get crushed across the board like

456
00:36:01,173 --> 00:36:06,293
i think strategies at one point what is it 1.4 1.5 something like that metapanets come way down

457
00:36:06,293 --> 00:36:11,173
like across the board mnavs are getting crushed like why do you think this still has legs and and

458
00:36:11,173 --> 00:36:16,153
just to add to that like i think sailor changed the game with these preferreds and is the idea

459
00:36:16,153 --> 00:36:21,232
of just selling common stock to buy bitcoin now just an old boring idea i don't think it is at all

460
00:36:21,232 --> 00:36:29,332
I think that, you know, if you look at these assets, I mean, there were numerous points where, I mean, MicroStrategy traded at a discount at one point.

461
00:36:29,832 --> 00:36:32,653
Like MNAVs have compressed in the past for MetaPlanet.

462
00:36:32,773 --> 00:36:39,193
I think there's been three distinct periods where the MNAV compressed like materially very, very heavily.

463
00:36:39,793 --> 00:36:43,413
In the past, have they ever been when we're like very close to all time highs though?

464
00:36:44,373 --> 00:36:45,913
MicroStrategy did peak early.

465
00:36:46,153 --> 00:36:47,293
It peaked early last cycle.

466
00:36:47,293 --> 00:36:48,993
It did peak way before.

467
00:36:48,993 --> 00:36:57,193
I think there's maybe one meta planet correction that was definitely, I mean, maybe not at all time highs, but at very positive Bitcoin prices.

468
00:36:57,552 --> 00:36:59,732
I'll speak to the point you're making, though.

469
00:37:00,732 --> 00:37:10,832
There was a massive run up in these assets that actually happened while Bitcoin was going slightly upwards to sideways.

470
00:37:10,832 --> 00:37:20,173
And so what you saw was the treasury companies in the spring, in May, they put in multiple hundreds of percent gains.

471
00:37:20,373 --> 00:37:27,712
Like there is a massive, massive move higher for Metaplanet, for SmarterWeb, for H100, for all of these names.

472
00:37:27,973 --> 00:37:30,613
And the market is now digesting that fact.

473
00:37:30,613 --> 00:37:43,433
And I find it somewhat funny because Bitcoiners, when you're a Bitcoin guy, every time Bitcoin would have a drawdown, the people would come out of the woodworks to be like, look, it's down 30 percent.

474
00:37:43,633 --> 00:37:48,933
Bitcoin's over. Don't you feel stupid? And Bitcoin people would say, hey, you know, zoom out.

475
00:37:48,973 --> 00:37:53,993
It's still up this much. It's still it's gone down before it's come back.

476
00:37:53,993 --> 00:38:01,873
And I mean, you look at these these companies and they're still at like, you know, if you bought before, they're still generally at like very good prices.

477
00:38:01,873 --> 00:38:03,873
They're still they've grown tremendously.

478
00:38:03,873 --> 00:38:05,633
There's been a material contraction.

479
00:38:05,633 --> 00:38:08,013
And I don't mean to, you know, make light of that.

480
00:38:08,013 --> 00:38:11,573
Obviously, if you purchased it at the top or, you know, that that stings.

481
00:38:12,252 --> 00:38:17,113
But I just think the the structure.

482
00:38:17,113 --> 00:38:19,273
So anyways, it's happened before.

483
00:38:19,852 --> 00:38:22,433
And this is a volatile asset class.

484
00:38:22,433 --> 00:38:33,033
And I just didn't in that I don't see an idea or a trend that really got exhausted or that had a fundamental event occur.

485
00:38:33,212 --> 00:38:36,673
Like something happened that like really interrupted it.

486
00:38:36,893 --> 00:38:37,873
And so then they compressed.

487
00:38:38,173 --> 00:38:40,913
I think they just went up a tremendous amount.

488
00:38:41,013 --> 00:38:43,433
They had a blow off top and they are consolidating.

489
00:38:44,552 --> 00:38:45,993
Time will tell, of course.

490
00:38:45,993 --> 00:39:06,052
But the reason I like outside of just speculating on what happened in the past, the reason I'm optimistic in the future is because I do not believe that Bitcoin becomes a global asset without there being securitization along the way.

491
00:39:06,052 --> 00:39:07,752
Not that Bitcoin needs that.

492
00:39:07,832 --> 00:39:10,153
I'm not saying Bitcoin needs securitization.

493
00:39:10,773 --> 00:39:17,192
I'm saying you can't invest, invent the hardest monetary asset in the world and not expect

494
00:39:17,192 --> 00:39:21,712
it to come into securities markets and not expect Wall Street to do things with it.

495
00:39:22,052 --> 00:39:25,052
And the size of these things is like this big right now.

496
00:39:25,052 --> 00:39:32,873
I don't believe that there was like, oh, there was a six-month attempt at Bitcoin securitization

497
00:39:32,873 --> 00:39:33,752
and now it's over.

498
00:39:34,173 --> 00:39:35,852
Again, time will tell.

499
00:39:36,052 --> 00:39:38,133
But I think this is a big idea.

500
00:39:38,773 --> 00:39:39,973
And I think so.

501
00:39:40,533 --> 00:39:44,052
I speak with a lot of investment banks on a day to day basis.

502
00:39:44,052 --> 00:39:45,653
Now I speak with analysts.

503
00:39:45,653 --> 00:39:47,232
I speak with investment banks.

504
00:39:47,732 --> 00:39:51,033
I was surprised, very pleasantly surprised.

505
00:39:51,993 --> 00:39:53,692
They all love the idea.

506
00:39:53,832 --> 00:39:56,732
It actually makes more sense to them than Bitcoin.

507
00:39:56,852 --> 00:39:59,552
Bitcoin was hard for them because there's no cash flows.

508
00:39:59,773 --> 00:40:00,692
There's nothing to model.

509
00:40:01,073 --> 00:40:03,252
You can't really plug anything into a spreadsheet.

510
00:40:03,252 --> 00:40:09,993
with these, it's much more speaking their language. There's capital being raised,

511
00:40:10,073 --> 00:40:14,393
there's a growth rate, you can calculate various metrics, you can model this out.

512
00:40:15,133 --> 00:40:21,332
And as I've talked with a number of investment banks, many analysts, some who understand this

513
00:40:21,332 --> 00:40:28,613
really quite deeply, they're all very excited. And it's still the early days for them. They're

514
00:40:28,613 --> 00:40:35,173
wrapping their heads around it. But they're very, I think there's a very positive reception to

515
00:40:35,173 --> 00:40:40,873
having something like this and being able to participate in the Bitcoin landscape from,

516
00:40:40,873 --> 00:40:46,573
you know, from a securitization lens. Firstly, I want to like put a disclaimer here and say,

517
00:40:46,653 --> 00:40:50,993
like, I'm not trying to convince anybody to buy trade. I wouldn't try and convince you of it.

518
00:40:51,293 --> 00:40:56,073
I don't want to convince the audience of it. I do it myself with about 20% of my portfolio,

519
00:40:56,073 --> 00:41:02,633
right still 80 percent bitcoin and the 20 has grown to 20 mainly because of mstr's over performance

520
00:41:02,633 --> 00:41:07,712
right and so like that's where i'm at with it and even you know the guys i talked to in the background

521
00:41:07,712 --> 00:41:12,673
who are like the biggest treasury guys tell me they're 50 bitcoin okay so like that's kind of

522
00:41:12,673 --> 00:41:17,712
where people are at and if you want to go 100 in big or you know in some treasury company that you

523
00:41:17,712 --> 00:41:23,973
just heard about you know in in bangladesh like that's on you and i i'm not i'm not recommending

524
00:41:23,973 --> 00:41:29,192
you do that. Like, I think we all know that the best way to get from here to there is in self

525
00:41:29,192 --> 00:41:33,773
custody, cold storage Bitcoin. That is without question. Now, some people are choosing to go

526
00:41:33,773 --> 00:41:38,133
further out on the risk curve, going to the casino, et cetera. Right. And that's OK. They can do that,

527
00:41:38,173 --> 00:41:43,573
but I'm not going to like promote it. OK, the other thing here is like, I think when you talk

528
00:41:43,573 --> 00:41:48,073
about like, you know, you're not quite seeing it yet. I think one thing that's been interesting to

529
00:41:48,073 --> 00:41:53,732
me is that, like I said, the Bitcoin story is now accepted. Bitcoin earned that. It fought tooth and

530
00:41:53,732 --> 00:41:58,493
nail for years and years. It scratched and clawed its way in the hearts and minds of market

531
00:41:58,493 --> 00:42:04,473
participants. And it proved itself, you know, indisputedly in its price performance and in its

532
00:42:04,473 --> 00:42:10,252
history and in its, you know, robustness, its decentralization, etc. And it's funny to me

533
00:42:10,252 --> 00:42:14,273
because even people who I don't think believe in Bitcoin, like Jim Chanos, who are shorting

534
00:42:14,273 --> 00:42:18,613
MicroStrategy, are out here saying, well, hey, yeah, I believe in Bitcoin, but I don't believe

535
00:42:18,613 --> 00:42:23,393
in MicroStrategy. So I'm arming the difference between the two. I think that the MicroStrategy,

536
00:42:23,393 --> 00:42:27,313
You know, it's interesting, like the MicroStrategy shareholders have been very displeased lately on Twitter.

537
00:42:27,433 --> 00:42:28,113
I don't know if you've noticed.

538
00:42:28,852 --> 00:42:35,913
But there's been a lot of whining and kvetching about the price and, you know, the ATMs and the this and that, the MNAV.

539
00:42:36,332 --> 00:42:44,533
I think what's going on is like, we know this from being early Bitcoiners is that you're going to have to go through this process of the market, you know,

540
00:42:44,773 --> 00:42:51,373
the market sort of proving out why these MNAVs deserve to exist and expand into the future.

541
00:42:51,373 --> 00:42:55,593
And there's this sort of idea that, you know,

542
00:42:55,593 --> 00:42:57,773
having a very large hoard of Bitcoin,

543
00:42:57,773 --> 00:43:09,985
there a speculation that having a very large hoard of Bitcoin will be very useful in the future for XYZ reasons We don really nobody can really quite articulate the reasons why having a large hoard

544
00:43:09,985 --> 00:43:11,245
is better than having a small hoard

545
00:43:11,245 --> 00:43:12,765
because theoretically you should be able to do

546
00:43:12,765 --> 00:43:15,365
the same things you can do with a large hoard

547
00:43:15,365 --> 00:43:16,125
with a small hoard.

548
00:43:16,465 --> 00:43:18,905
But there's this idea sort of when you invest

549
00:43:18,905 --> 00:43:20,865
in MicroStrategy that long-term like,

550
00:43:21,445 --> 00:43:23,145
and you know, like speaking of vibes,

551
00:43:23,145 --> 00:43:24,945
like this was my vibe when I first invested

552
00:43:24,945 --> 00:43:25,845
in MicroStrategy is like,

553
00:43:26,105 --> 00:43:27,845
company with the most Bitcoin wins, dude.

554
00:43:27,845 --> 00:43:29,045
I don't know what to tell you.

555
00:43:29,185 --> 00:43:30,965
That's just how it goes.

556
00:43:31,445 --> 00:43:33,585
So I think that there's a process here

557
00:43:33,585 --> 00:43:35,145
that the market has to go through

558
00:43:35,145 --> 00:43:38,145
where it digests these new substrates,

559
00:43:38,265 --> 00:43:41,125
and Bitcoin treasury companies are a new modality.

560
00:43:41,885 --> 00:43:45,145
And if you're an investor in MSTR, Nakamoto,

561
00:43:45,285 --> 00:43:46,285
whatever it is,

562
00:43:46,705 --> 00:43:49,205
you're going to have to go through the process as well.

563
00:43:49,665 --> 00:43:50,685
And it's kind of interesting.

564
00:43:50,805 --> 00:43:52,825
I was thinking about the MNAVs in terms of like,

565
00:43:52,865 --> 00:43:54,725
remember co-integration from last cycle?

566
00:43:55,285 --> 00:43:57,405
It's almost like the MNAVs are kind of co-integrated

567
00:43:57,405 --> 00:43:58,525
with the Bitcoin price.

568
00:43:58,685 --> 00:43:59,425
It's like, you know,

569
00:43:59,485 --> 00:44:01,485
the plan B gave the analogy

570
00:44:01,485 --> 00:44:02,905
of the drunk walking the dog.

571
00:44:03,085 --> 00:44:03,925
And it's like, yeah,

572
00:44:03,945 --> 00:44:05,005
this is levered Bitcoin,

573
00:44:05,305 --> 00:44:06,225
but it doesn't mean

574
00:44:06,225 --> 00:44:08,605
it's always like perfectly 2X levered.

575
00:44:08,605 --> 00:44:10,005
It's going to move around quite a bit.

576
00:44:10,185 --> 00:44:11,165
And you as the investor

577
00:44:11,165 --> 00:44:12,185
have to make sure

578
00:44:12,185 --> 00:44:13,565
that you can endure that volatility,

579
00:44:13,565 --> 00:44:15,745
which is why the spot products

580
00:44:15,745 --> 00:44:17,065
of these companies

581
00:44:17,065 --> 00:44:19,285
are probably the best long-term bet

582
00:44:19,285 --> 00:44:20,065
rather than, you know,

583
00:44:20,365 --> 00:44:21,865
getting deep in the options game

584
00:44:21,865 --> 00:44:23,585
or some of the leveraged ETF products,

585
00:44:23,585 --> 00:44:24,005
et cetera.

586
00:44:24,965 --> 00:44:25,065
All right.

587
00:44:25,085 --> 00:44:26,785
I've got millions of questions in there,

588
00:44:26,785 --> 00:44:28,765
But Stephen, I want to go back to something you said first.

589
00:44:29,365 --> 00:44:32,585
Like, I agree with you that the securitization of Bitcoin is inevitable.

590
00:44:32,725 --> 00:44:33,245
It's going to happen.

591
00:44:33,425 --> 00:44:36,765
I'm not against that in any way because like Bitcoin is money for enemies.

592
00:44:36,865 --> 00:44:38,345
People are going to use it however they want to use it.

593
00:44:38,705 --> 00:44:42,765
But the question I would have is like, why are you so convinced that this is the model?

594
00:44:42,905 --> 00:44:44,865
Like, this is the way that Bitcoin will get securitized.

595
00:44:45,005 --> 00:44:49,785
And then to add to that, you also said like when Bitcoin goes down, we're all like zoom out, bro.

596
00:44:50,205 --> 00:44:53,305
But if you ask me, is Bitcoin going to exist in 20 years?

597
00:44:53,705 --> 00:44:54,585
A hundred percent yes.

598
00:44:54,585 --> 00:44:59,225
Like I've quite literally, we all have like bet our lives that Bitcoin is still going to be here in 20 years.

599
00:44:59,325 --> 00:45:05,705
If you ask me if like XYZ penny stock treasury company is going to exist in 20 years, I'm probably at less than 5%.

600
00:45:05,705 --> 00:45:07,785
So like, I think there's a difference there.

601
00:45:08,025 --> 00:45:10,305
But like, why is this the model?

602
00:45:10,405 --> 00:45:12,385
Why is this how Bitcoin will be securitized?

603
00:45:12,905 --> 00:45:13,025
Yeah.

604
00:45:13,225 --> 00:45:17,685
So, I mean, I think it's and let me I hope I can keep all these points in mind at the same time.

605
00:45:17,705 --> 00:45:22,325
I first want to say my goal in coming on here is also not to tell people to go buy treasury stocks.

606
00:45:22,325 --> 00:45:24,405
I've never said I've never said that.

607
00:45:24,405 --> 00:45:28,485
I've never been like, oh, yeah, man, you got to go put all your money in these things or do something like that.

608
00:45:28,485 --> 00:45:33,325
And I think me and David have both been very vocal of like, you know, cold storage.

609
00:45:33,385 --> 00:45:40,305
Bitcoin is irreplaceable. So just like throwing that out there like now to your to your question.

610
00:45:40,965 --> 00:45:50,925
Yeah. I mean, you're I am in no way saying that like some individual treasury stock or corporation or any corporation, really.

611
00:45:50,925 --> 00:45:55,545
I mean, you could even I think Bitcoin is going to be around longer than Amazon.

612
00:45:55,865 --> 00:45:58,385
I think Bitcoin is going to be around longer than Ford.

613
00:45:58,565 --> 00:45:59,445
Like, you know what I mean?

614
00:45:59,445 --> 00:46:10,525
When you start talking about an individual corporation, you're talking about a corporate entity with operators, with business decisions and all these things like those things don't last as long.

615
00:46:10,525 --> 00:46:15,225
In many cases, sometimes, you know, I'm not saying no corporations stick around.

616
00:46:15,225 --> 00:46:18,685
And I think there's a lot of virtue in trying to build something.

617
00:46:18,685 --> 00:46:32,805
And we would like to be in that category of building something that lasts, but it's different than a decentralized network. Right. And so I think there's just this thing that like, I don't I'm not saying I don't I think few people are saying that.

618
00:46:32,805 --> 00:46:40,685
Bitcoin, the asset or Bitcoin, the network and treasury companies are comparable in the same way

619
00:46:40,685 --> 00:46:45,285
that they exist in the same place of the risk curve, especially if you're talking about like

620
00:46:45,285 --> 00:46:50,925
tiny new ventures that are just getting going. And that's to a point that I agreed with from

621
00:46:50,925 --> 00:46:55,185
Hoddles that this is this is early. These companies don't have a lot of coins. Like I'm a lot more

622
00:46:55,185 --> 00:47:00,585
confident that micro strategy will exist in some form than one of these new companies with under

623
00:47:00,585 --> 00:47:07,245
a thousand coins. Right. And that's just, you have a risk curve now, but the risk curve is BTC

624
00:47:07,245 --> 00:47:11,825
denominated. That's kind of the cool thing. Uh, and like, that's a side point, but, um,

625
00:47:12,225 --> 00:47:17,865
so I agree with you, like, like these are not at all the same thing or comparable and,

626
00:47:17,865 --> 00:47:24,705
but risk isn't exactly a bad thing. And I know there's a big, I think, I think the fiat world

627
00:47:24,705 --> 00:47:30,325
is like, there's no savings. Savings doesn't exist. There's only investing. You have to

628
00:47:30,325 --> 00:47:35,765
invest to save. And Bitcoiners are like, screw that. You should be able to save your money.

629
00:47:36,025 --> 00:47:40,985
That's Bitcoin. I don't want to have to take like operating risk just to keep my value.

630
00:47:41,285 --> 00:47:45,465
That's beautiful. I love it. But if you take that all the way to the other side,

631
00:47:45,685 --> 00:47:51,085
all we should ever do is save. No one should ever invest in any venture. No one should ever

632
00:47:51,085 --> 00:47:55,345
deploy capital or go out the risk curve or anything like that. I don't think that's right.

633
00:47:55,345 --> 00:48:03,545
First of all, I think it's very obviously not right because if everyone did it, the entire economy would stop because no one would have businesses, right?

634
00:48:03,645 --> 00:48:10,085
So you need actors that are investing in enterprises to keep everything going.

635
00:48:10,625 --> 00:48:13,325
So anyway, so these things are different.

636
00:48:13,485 --> 00:48:18,125
Now, your question was why is this the vehicle?

637
00:48:19,025 --> 00:48:24,845
I think this is the beginning of a shell of a vehicle.

638
00:48:24,845 --> 00:48:28,485
Like, I'm not even saying like this, we've got it all figured out.

639
00:48:28,605 --> 00:48:29,805
This is how you do it.

640
00:48:30,085 --> 00:48:35,885
And I think that's been evidenced in the micro strategy story where it's evolved over time.

641
00:48:35,885 --> 00:48:39,165
What he was doing in the beginning and what he's doing now are very different.

642
00:48:39,165 --> 00:48:41,325
And there are new products and there are new angles.

643
00:48:41,325 --> 00:48:46,505
And it's because this is in very many ways being worked out.

644
00:48:46,505 --> 00:49:03,545
And but do I think there is a strong value in having an operating entity or a business that is touching Bitcoin directly, that has the express corporate mandate of acquiring more Bitcoin?

645
00:49:03,765 --> 00:49:06,645
Yes, I do. And I think there's evidence to this today.

646
00:49:06,745 --> 00:49:16,185
When you look at these filings, we had the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world, the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, report they doubled their micro strategy position, roughly speaking.

647
00:49:16,185 --> 00:49:18,745
They had a large increase in it in their last reporting.

648
00:49:19,205 --> 00:49:22,345
We had huge investment banks that are constantly reporting this.

649
00:49:22,805 --> 00:49:24,765
Why didn't they buy the ETF?

650
00:49:25,505 --> 00:49:29,745
Because they want to invest in equities, in corporations.

651
00:49:30,165 --> 00:49:30,945
There's mandates.

652
00:49:31,665 --> 00:49:33,265
There's tons of restrictions.

653
00:49:33,985 --> 00:49:35,545
There's all of these different reasons.

654
00:49:35,745 --> 00:49:41,165
But you see these very large pools of capital are buying micro strategy stock, in some cases

655
00:49:41,165 --> 00:49:42,745
also even meta planet.

656
00:49:42,745 --> 00:49:51,625
These represent mediums that capital allocators need. And so one of the reasons I'm confident on

657
00:49:51,625 --> 00:49:58,645
this is because when you understand kind of the whole investment landscape and securities landscape,

658
00:49:59,185 --> 00:50:05,805
there's just people that need something like this. And so in many ways, treasury companies

659
00:50:05,805 --> 00:50:12,705
are very pragmatic and they're responding to what's right in front of us, which is that

660
00:50:12,705 --> 00:50:41,365
People have demand for levered Bitcoin. There are many actors that have demand for they need to buy corporate equities. They can't do the spot ETF or they don't want to do the spot ETF. And due to the structure and moment in time of fiat, of where we are, of Bitcoin and fiat, that there is value to be provided by leveraging the tools of public finance to acquire Bitcoin.

661
00:50:41,365 --> 00:51:01,145
And that's the thing I'm really bullish on. Like you said, why do you think these are the right vehicles? Because when you think about this moment in time where capital markets are like, hey, like HODL was saying, fine, we believe you on Bitcoin. We believe you. It's going to be a thing. Bitcoin's going to be a thing. BlackRock did it and the president.

662
00:51:01,145 --> 00:51:18,385
And the next question is like, OK, how do we acquire enough Bitcoin? How do we acquire more Bitcoin in the most capital efficient way possible? And the answer to that question is always going to be a public vehicle. A public vehicle will have a lower cost of capital.

663
00:51:18,385 --> 00:51:34,945
And so in many ways, like that's the that's the concept. And so like I'm willing to bet on that concept. And I'm willing to say that, like, if people want Bitcoin, there will be demand for capital efficiency in deploying it from the perspective of the corporation. Right.

664
00:51:35,545 --> 00:51:40,605
Obviously, if you buy it at like the maximum MNAV and then the MNAV contracts, that wasn't

665
00:51:40,605 --> 00:51:44,885
capital efficient for you, but it was capital efficient for the vehicle.

666
00:51:45,585 --> 00:51:48,365
And that's why these things exist.

667
00:51:48,505 --> 00:51:50,325
And that's why I think they'll continue to exist.

668
00:51:50,765 --> 00:51:52,285
And I think it will evolve.

669
00:51:52,465 --> 00:51:58,005
That's my other point is this is not a finalized, hardened form.

670
00:51:58,625 --> 00:52:00,825
These vehicles, I think, will evolve dramatically.

671
00:52:01,545 --> 00:52:10,345
So I know I'm like a bit of a doomer on this, but I do find kind of the bear take one of the most interesting and something that people should be sort of aware of and potentially ready for.

672
00:52:10,485 --> 00:52:12,925
Like in a bear market, what do you think happens?

673
00:52:13,045 --> 00:52:18,365
And with this, I think it'd be worth separating strategy from everything else just because of like their size.

674
00:52:18,465 --> 00:52:20,545
And I think I think they're going to be fine.

675
00:52:20,565 --> 00:52:22,505
Like they're pretty under leveraged.

676
00:52:22,585 --> 00:52:24,725
I don't think there's a real risk that they go under any point.

677
00:52:24,845 --> 00:52:25,925
So let's start with strategy.

678
00:52:26,025 --> 00:52:28,185
What do you think happens with strategy in a bear market?

679
00:52:28,185 --> 00:52:30,545
Do you think they go below 1xm nav?

680
00:52:30,825 --> 00:52:50,985
It certainly could. It certainly could. And I will tell you as somebody who had a large position in GBTC last time around, GBTC went 50% below NAV, and it had been trading at a premium which was 200% above NAV at some point.

681
00:52:50,985 --> 00:52:57,565
And so to go from, you know, 200% above to 50% below, it hurts.

682
00:52:57,705 --> 00:52:59,905
It stings quite a bit as an investor.

683
00:52:59,905 --> 00:53:03,525
And you have to be incredibly convicted in order to make it through.

684
00:53:03,605 --> 00:53:08,545
And what happens is with GBTC, and I can predict this will happen for MicroStrategy

685
00:53:08,545 --> 00:53:12,025
because we're already seeing this with like the proof of reserve comments and all this stuff,

686
00:53:12,065 --> 00:53:17,225
is at the very bottom, when you're at your most vulnerable and most fearful and most shell-shocked,

687
00:53:17,585 --> 00:53:20,485
people come along and they go, they don't even have the Bitcoin, bro.

688
00:53:20,485 --> 00:53:25,905
they don't even have it fucking michael saylor spent it on coke and yachts dude it's gone dude

689
00:53:25,905 --> 00:53:30,265
right like like that's that's what happened with gbtc people started saying that the bitcoin wasn't

690
00:53:30,265 --> 00:53:34,965
even there and i i i had to spend two days diligencing it and being like wait a second no no

691
00:53:34,965 --> 00:53:39,805
it has to be there because of this and this and this and i had to go through all the the facts and

692
00:53:39,805 --> 00:53:44,305
of course they did have all the bitcoin that they purported to have and so you know it got repriced

693
00:53:44,305 --> 00:53:48,585
when the etfs came in and blah blah blah but like there was a tough period of time there where you

694
00:53:48,585 --> 00:53:52,885
had to make it through as an investor. And I think that you should be prepared if you're

695
00:53:52,885 --> 00:53:57,385
investing in these treasury companies for a very difficult period of time. I mean, the volatility,

696
00:53:58,085 --> 00:54:02,405
listen, like, like Saylor says, volatility is vitality, but like, Hey man, there's a lot of

697
00:54:02,405 --> 00:54:07,525
highs and lows in life. Like this can suck for quite a while before it gets better. So like,

698
00:54:07,545 --> 00:54:12,285
yeah, if we, if we hit a deep bear market, be prepared for rocky waters ahead.

699
00:54:12,285 --> 00:54:32,265
The thing that I think warrants the most conviction is that there is a way to structure a public vehicle with the express purpose of acquiring as much Bitcoin as you can that makes all the sense in the world.

700
00:54:32,265 --> 00:54:36,725
And if you're bullish Bitcoin, you should be bullish this element.

701
00:54:37,025 --> 00:54:41,385
And there are many kind of evolutions this market could go through.

702
00:54:41,385 --> 00:54:59,205
For example, if strategy or treasury company starts earning a return stream on the Bitcoin, let's say strategy starts generating 3%, like anything crazy, or 4% or 5%, there's now a growing cash flow component that's coming that then gets a multiple.

703
00:54:59,205 --> 00:55:13,325
And so if they have a, you know, 100 billion in Bitcoin or whatever it is, and then they now have leveraged the treasury, they're either issuing financial products, they're earning a return from it in some way, you know, there's development in the market.

704
00:55:13,325 --> 00:55:19,485
they now have the value of the assets plus a multiple on the return stream, which is growing

705
00:55:19,485 --> 00:55:25,945
every year. And that, and that marks the equity above the, the nav, like it trades for more.

706
00:55:25,945 --> 00:55:32,585
That is a, you know, like a, like a price to earnings multiple is similar and different. And,

707
00:55:32,725 --> 00:55:37,245
you know, I, I appreciate the, you know, there are people in traditional finance that would push

708
00:55:37,245 --> 00:55:41,965
heavily back on that. A PE multiple is the same as an M nav and they're, they're distinct,

709
00:55:41,965 --> 00:55:50,805
but they're both examples of the market pricing future growth to today.

710
00:55:50,805 --> 00:55:58,525
Like that's what a PE multiple is, is it's saying you don't get to buy my business for

711
00:55:58,525 --> 00:56:00,185
just the net present value.

712
00:56:00,565 --> 00:56:05,045
You have to pay me for how fast I'm growing because if I hold onto the business for another

713
00:56:05,045 --> 00:56:08,445
five years, well, I'm worth 30% more, right?

714
00:56:08,665 --> 00:56:10,705
And so we discount that back to today.

715
00:56:10,705 --> 00:56:38,465
And I would argue there's a very similar structural thing with the MNAV because there's a growth rate. There's a growth rate on the Bitcoin per share. So maybe, you know, I mean, some of these companies are growing it at a ridiculous rate. But even if, you know, you were growing it at 30% per year and able to do that consistently, like that's worth more than just the net present value. How much more? Who knows? Like, just like what's the right PE multiple for NVIDIA?

716
00:56:38,465 --> 00:57:07,225
Nobody knows. There's no right answer there. But there's a simple point that you have to pay a multiple for future growth. And so if these companies get to a point where they're able to synergize the treasury with cash flows, that expands the MNAV or the valuation, which they can then use more effectively to buy more Bitcoin,

717
00:57:07,225 --> 00:57:11,745
which goes into the return stream, like the operating, like the cash flows.

718
00:57:12,305 --> 00:57:14,325
And so there's just there's a lot here.

719
00:57:14,325 --> 00:57:16,365
And it's again, like, I think it's early.

720
00:57:16,565 --> 00:57:18,825
I don't think this landscape is fleshed out.

721
00:57:19,305 --> 00:57:26,825
And at the end of the day, packaging Bitcoin acquisition efforts in a corporate vehicle

722
00:57:26,825 --> 00:57:31,525
gives you just such a wider landscape to operate from it.

723
00:57:31,605 --> 00:57:32,785
And that's the key principle.

724
00:57:32,785 --> 00:57:37,845
That's the thing that I think you can be at this kind of stage, like pretty confident about.

725
00:57:39,265 --> 00:57:46,585
I know I'm a bit of a doomer here, but assuming strategy survives, I think that the rest of the companies, let's say they hold less than 100,000 Bitcoin.

726
00:57:46,685 --> 00:57:47,625
I don't know the exact figure.

727
00:57:47,905 --> 00:57:50,105
I don't see that as like an existential risk to Bitcoin.

728
00:57:50,285 --> 00:57:53,565
We saw someone come and sell like 80,000 Bitcoin a couple of weeks ago.

729
00:57:54,325 --> 00:57:59,365
But I do think the more interesting side will be what happens with those smaller companies in a bear market.

730
00:57:59,365 --> 00:58:04,045
so like if you take let's say any coin any company that has less than a thousand coins

731
00:58:04,045 --> 00:58:08,625
like what i don't know is if there's sort of a doom loop scenario where if they're trading

732
00:58:08,625 --> 00:58:14,065
at a discount to nav for a long period of time if they'll ever be able to get out of that in the

733
00:58:14,065 --> 00:58:20,205
sense that like if if there's little liquidity on the stock and they can't just issue more common

734
00:58:20,205 --> 00:58:24,425
stock to buy more bitcoins try and pump nav like what happens do they end up having to sell bitcoin

735
00:58:24,425 --> 00:58:29,205
to repurchase their stock to drive the stock price higher like i this is the thing that i'm i'm not

736
00:58:29,205 --> 00:58:38,945
very sure about yeah i mean if you're a small a very small company with no cash flow that's

737
00:58:38,945 --> 00:58:44,145
trading at a discount to nav for a long time that's not a good position to be in but that's a

738
00:58:44,145 --> 00:58:53,145
that's not that's not like a category criticism that's a like this is a a poorly operated a

739
00:58:53,145 --> 00:58:58,025
company that was just not able to succeed and i'm sure there will be many of those and i'm sure there

740
00:58:58,025 --> 00:59:02,865
will be, you know, you've talked a lot about like the long tail of treasury companies. I don't know

741
00:59:02,865 --> 00:59:07,925
that I've ever responded to that. That long tail will almost certainly exist. There will, you know,

742
00:59:07,965 --> 00:59:12,425
like, I mean, we were talking about.com and we were talking about, you know, there's always that

743
00:59:12,425 --> 00:59:16,545
long tail. Um, that's, that's almost certainly going to happen. I think the more interesting

744
00:59:16,545 --> 00:59:23,645
question is like, um, are there, what, what are the winners look like? What, what is the landscape

745
00:59:23,645 --> 00:59:30,065
for the winners. Like how, how, how many winners, like, um, what do those companies like turn out

746
00:59:30,065 --> 00:59:36,365
as and what role do they play in the future? So, you know, I'm not here to, uh, put lipstick on

747
00:59:36,365 --> 00:59:43,145
the long tail of, you know, quick companies that don't know how to do this poorly. Like they will

748
00:59:43,145 --> 00:59:47,985
certainly exist and they won't be in a strong position. And like to survive a downturn, you need

749
00:59:47,985 --> 00:59:54,245
cash flow or you need capital or you need access to debt or you need, you know, and so on. Right.

750
00:59:54,245 --> 01:00:01,965
There's a number of factors that'll help a prolonged downturn in Bitcoin. Now, how prolonged

751
01:00:01,965 --> 01:00:07,485
are those downturns going to be? You know, one of the points HODL was making at the beginning was

752
01:00:07,485 --> 01:00:13,205
like the quality of this market is different. Wall Street's here. They're operating under

753
01:00:13,205 --> 01:00:18,985
different rules. And God, I mean, I know every cycle people come out and they say,

754
01:00:19,365 --> 01:00:23,585
four-year cycle's over, bro, not going to happen. And then they're wrong. And so it's like incredibly

755
01:00:23,585 --> 01:00:32,425
like intellectually risky to take that stance. But I truly struggle to imagine a two-year 70%.

756
01:00:32,425 --> 01:00:37,445
Like, I don't think you can get both. I don't think you can get a magnitude of a drawdown of

757
01:00:37,445 --> 01:00:44,405
like 70% and a two year duration. Uh, I think you could obviously still have drawdowns. I think

758
01:00:44,405 --> 01:00:50,265
they're shorter lived. I think they're less extreme. I think Bitcoin at this point has,

759
01:00:50,625 --> 01:00:58,285
I really characterize the Bitcoin bear markets as a large segment of the market, um, losing

760
01:00:58,285 --> 01:01:05,345
conviction existentially in the asset. It's not like, Oh man, this thing's gonna correct for a

761
01:01:05,345 --> 01:01:10,545
year and I just can't handle it. It's like, no, it's like they think Bitcoin's over. Like it's,

762
01:01:10,545 --> 01:01:17,925
it's, it's done. Like, um, and it's that sort of existential fear in the asset that I think has

763
01:01:17,925 --> 01:01:24,105
driven the historical Bitcoin bear markets. And I think with a combination of like the level of

764
01:01:24,105 --> 01:01:30,245
integration, the capital that's available to buy these things, like it's not just, you know,

765
01:01:30,245 --> 01:01:36,285
individuals that aren't seasoned investors like you have 90 billion dollars in the etfs you know

766
01:01:36,285 --> 01:01:43,625
what i mean like there's capital that has come into this thing and uh it will deploy on a discount

767
01:01:43,625 --> 01:01:49,705
especially in a world where um given the macroeconomic environment given the fiscal

768
01:01:49,705 --> 01:01:56,225
environment given the landscape we're in bitcoin's a very attractive asset and so all of that to say

769
01:01:56,225 --> 01:02:04,725
Like, I think companies need to be profoundly prepared for bear market conditions.

770
01:02:05,065 --> 01:02:06,465
They need to have a strategy.

771
01:02:07,005 --> 01:02:13,425
Like, you can't just like, if you not having a constant, highly elevated MNAF to operate

772
01:02:13,425 --> 01:02:14,925
at, like, is the end.

773
01:02:15,305 --> 01:02:18,685
Like, you don't, you know, that's not a sufficient strategy.

774
01:02:18,685 --> 01:02:28,725
um but also like outside of that um i i do expect that these kind of the duration of these kind of

775
01:02:28,725 --> 01:02:34,545
moves are going to be shorter and that does make the landscape easier i think also as we talk i've

776
01:02:34,545 --> 01:02:39,505
become convinced that like the small treasure the long tail like they just don't have enough coins

777
01:02:39,505 --> 01:02:46,145
to cause a significant correction here inside of treasure correct yeah yeah i know i agree with

778
01:02:46,145 --> 01:02:51,985
in terms of like Bitcoin price, but HODL, like one of your, maybe your second biggest meme after 6.15

779
01:02:51,985 --> 01:02:55,665
is green, green, green, red. Do you think that that is dead?

780
01:02:55,665 --> 01:02:59,425
You know, I have to say like, I'll go out on the intellectual

781
01:02:59,425 --> 01:03:03,105
limb because what do I have to lose anyway? I've said every stupid thing you can say in this space.

782
01:03:03,985 --> 01:03:10,065
Yeah, I think it's dead. I think it's dead. I think we're in, you know, the new era of Bitcoin.

783
01:03:10,065 --> 01:03:15,505
Bitcoin is trading like something like Nvidia or like a tech stock. It's not trading at all in any

784
01:03:15,505 --> 01:03:22,065
way where i have any understanding of how it's trading i can't anticipate how it's trading uh i'm

785
01:03:22,065 --> 01:03:27,425
bored by it because i think i'm addicted to the dopamine of its early volatility and you know by

786
01:03:27,425 --> 01:03:32,305
the way i think that's that's the thing we should talk about one of the things that's causing people

787
01:03:32,305 --> 01:03:37,105
to go into treasury companies og bitcoiners to go into treasury companies is the addiction to

788
01:03:37,105 --> 01:03:44,225
dopamine because as bitcoin matures and the vol recedes and the returns are more stable early

789
01:03:44,225 --> 01:03:49,265
Bitcoiners are like, this sucks. This is unbearable. I want to get 10 times more wealthy

790
01:03:49,265 --> 01:03:55,105
every four years. I'm getting wealthier every day. It's unbearable, Danny. I can't stand it.

791
01:03:55,665 --> 01:03:59,105
I need to be poor and then rich again and then poor again and then rich again.

792
01:04:00,465 --> 01:04:03,745
So I think that's part of the behavior that's motivating people to take

793
01:04:03,745 --> 01:04:08,465
more risk, more leverage, higher volatility. We're addicted to it. We're addicted to it.

794
01:04:08,465 --> 01:04:11,825
I totally agree. And one of the funny things is like, I've not been in this as long as you,

795
01:04:11,825 --> 01:04:14,625
I got in in like 2016, 2017.

796
01:04:14,625 --> 01:04:18,325
But normally you just get a vibe of what's going to happen.

797
01:04:18,325 --> 01:04:19,825
And I don't have the vibe anymore.

798
01:04:19,825 --> 01:04:20,825
I don't know what's happening.

799
01:04:20,825 --> 01:04:23,825
It's because Larry Fink doesn't call us up and be like, hey, bros.

800
01:04:24,485 --> 01:04:26,625
Yeah, like we're out of the loop.

801
01:04:26,625 --> 01:04:27,525
We're out of the conversation.

802
01:04:27,525 --> 01:04:29,325
We have no clue what's going on.

803
01:04:29,325 --> 01:04:42,297
You know it going to be wild But I do agree though I don think that these are going to cause any real impact on Bitcoin assuming strategy survives which I think it does Steven what your take over the next few years on Bitcoin

804
01:04:42,418 --> 01:04:43,217
What do you think is going to happen?

805
01:04:43,418 --> 01:04:45,837
I know HODL's got a big bet with Pete, which we can talk about.

806
01:04:46,377 --> 01:04:46,438
Yeah.

807
01:04:47,657 --> 01:04:48,877
I'll point out something.

808
01:04:49,577 --> 01:04:52,198
Many times in this conversation, I don't want to answer your question, but many times

809
01:04:52,198 --> 01:04:54,877
in this conversation, you've been like, I think strategy is fine.

810
01:04:54,877 --> 01:05:00,677
in that is a like there's a little bit of an admission there that is saying well if you get

811
01:05:00,677 --> 01:05:07,057
big enough if you get xyz then this this thing can work and you know then it's kind of clarify

812
01:05:07,057 --> 01:05:11,398
my point there because you are right i do think it's size i think size is probably the most

813
01:05:11,398 --> 01:05:17,398
important factor and i don't know what the the right size to hit is but i think also it's i i'm

814
01:05:17,398 --> 01:05:21,797
bullish might be the wrong word but i'm very confident that preferreds are going to work

815
01:05:21,797 --> 01:05:24,857
pretty well. I think that's tapping into a huge market. It's exciting.

816
01:05:25,577 --> 01:05:28,797
Are the preferred something that you would look to do at Nakamoto? Carry on your answer,

817
01:05:28,877 --> 01:05:33,938
but also- Yeah, absolutely. And I think the preferreds are very exciting. And

818
01:05:33,938 --> 01:05:41,137
that's an example, like this reinforces the thesis I've been trying to present that

819
01:05:41,137 --> 01:05:48,997
only an institution with a large enough balance sheet of Bitcoin can issue those products because

820
01:05:48,997 --> 01:05:55,137
you need a counterparty that's taking the directional risk. And Goldman's not going to do

821
01:05:55,137 --> 01:05:59,097
it. And JP Morgan's not going to do it. They're not going to hold $100 billion of balance sheet.

822
01:05:59,177 --> 01:06:04,137
They can't, first of all, because of regulation. So you need an institution that says, hey,

823
01:06:04,517 --> 01:06:10,257
we'll stomach the vol for you, volatility as a service, and then we'll peel off some of that

824
01:06:10,257 --> 01:06:18,257
excess return for you so you can make your 9%. And that's a Bitcoin collateralized financial

825
01:06:18,257 --> 01:06:23,597
product. I think you see more of those things. I think that's part of what's evolving here.

826
01:06:23,597 --> 01:06:28,357
And this is what I mean by the securitization of Bitcoin. I didn't just mean treasury companies.

827
01:06:28,597 --> 01:06:34,997
I mean products, security products that treasury companies produce that require Bitcoin collateral.

828
01:06:35,557 --> 01:06:40,457
If you really think Bitcoin becomes a crucial part of the global financial system,

829
01:06:40,717 --> 01:06:45,918
these sort of things need to happen. You need actual Bitcoin financial products and securities

830
01:06:45,918 --> 01:06:50,677
and things. And I think this is the early stage. I don't know where it all ends up. I don't know

831
01:06:50,677 --> 01:06:54,977
what it all looks like. But I agree with you. And I think it's important. And I think it's part of

832
01:06:54,977 --> 01:07:01,677
the it is a real product they're producing. And Saylor has said this. I'm iterating his phrasing,

833
01:07:01,837 --> 01:07:07,617
but he's called it like refining or this is what Solomon Brothers did. So there was like a

834
01:07:07,617 --> 01:07:15,597
tranching of bonds. But in traditional finance, there's something similar here where they broke

835
01:07:15,597 --> 01:07:23,398
out the bonds into different buckets for different risk profiles and categories of investors.

836
01:07:23,997 --> 01:07:28,918
And so this is something with a history where you take an asset class and you kind of extract

837
01:07:28,918 --> 01:07:31,857
certain properties from it and you bundle it up.

838
01:07:32,157 --> 01:07:33,797
And that's what sailors looking to do here.

839
01:07:33,938 --> 01:07:39,938
And I think there's a lot more room for that of kind of taking some of the properties from

840
01:07:39,938 --> 01:07:42,918
Bitcoin and giving different investors different buckets.

841
01:07:44,677 --> 01:07:45,117
Yeah.

842
01:07:45,597 --> 01:07:47,677
These are the CDOs of Bitcoin.

843
01:07:48,117 --> 01:07:48,817
That's what we're doing here.

844
01:07:48,877 --> 01:07:49,438
No, I'm just kidding.

845
01:07:51,377 --> 01:07:54,037
And Nakamoto is like a CDO of a CDO.

846
01:07:54,057 --> 01:07:54,857
It's a synthetic CDO, yeah.

847
01:07:57,137 --> 01:07:59,997
I'm looking at Bitcoin Treasuries, shout out MVK.

848
01:08:00,457 --> 01:08:03,637
So 21 have got like 40,000 coins.

849
01:08:03,757 --> 01:08:04,857
Adam Back's company is 30.

850
01:08:05,137 --> 01:08:08,257
You guys are at 5.7 thousand.

851
01:08:08,597 --> 01:08:08,717
Yeah.

852
01:08:09,097 --> 01:08:10,898
What is big enough, do you think?

853
01:08:11,737 --> 01:08:12,997
That's the question, right?

854
01:08:12,997 --> 01:08:22,317
So like coming back to, you know, where I tangent is it like, you know, you said like, yes, size is what allows, you know, you're going to make it if you get big enough.

855
01:08:22,417 --> 01:08:23,817
The answer is nobody knows.

856
01:08:23,817 --> 01:08:25,677
Like where is that bar?

857
01:08:25,677 --> 01:08:45,518
But if you handed me, or if I handed an operator a structure that had a couple billion dollars of Bitcoin in it and said, no more equity sales, you can't use an ATM, you can't do any of this stuff, sink or swim, can they make it?

858
01:08:45,518 --> 01:08:50,677
I think so. I think if you get handed an operating structure and you're somebody

859
01:08:50,677 --> 01:08:54,617
that understands the ecosystem, that understands Bitcoin, could you take a

860
01:08:54,617 --> 01:09:00,917
$5 billion wrapper without doing an ATM and without doing some of these things and make a

861
01:09:00,917 --> 01:09:05,777
company? I think you could. That's a lot of capital, especially if you're bullish Bitcoin

862
01:09:05,777 --> 01:09:12,018
and Bitcoin's growing. And you say, hey, in a few years anyways, this thing is worth quite a bit

863
01:09:12,018 --> 01:09:18,498
more. So I don't, you know, nobody knows where that, where that kind of threshold is, but I don't,

864
01:09:18,598 --> 01:09:23,077
I don't think it's anywhere near strategy. I don't think you have to get to strategy scale. I don't,

865
01:09:23,117 --> 01:09:26,317
I don't think it's like, if you don't have a hundred billion dollars in Bitcoin, you're in

866
01:09:26,317 --> 01:09:34,898
trouble. I would think it's substantially lower. Now, is it 200 coins in a micro cap stock XYZ?

867
01:09:34,898 --> 01:09:40,637
Like probably, probably not. That's, that's not sufficient scale. If suddenly all of these other

868
01:09:40,637 --> 01:09:48,777
advantages turned off. But I think, you know, I think as that kind of grows, you get a couple

869
01:09:48,777 --> 01:09:54,077
billion dollars and I think it's probably closer to that mark. But I'm also like, there's a

870
01:09:54,077 --> 01:09:59,077
theoretical there, which is we're saying like these other factors kind of go away and you kind of can't

871
01:09:59,077 --> 01:10:03,277
use the current playbook. I'm obviously bullish that the current playbook persists.

872
01:10:04,157 --> 01:10:07,777
I know me and Hoda both said we don't really have a great vibe check on this bull market,

873
01:10:07,777 --> 01:10:11,998
Stephen, but how much of an impact are the treasury companies having in terms of buy side pressure?

874
01:10:13,038 --> 01:10:17,277
Obviously, there's an answer to that question with and without without micro strategy. I'm just

875
01:10:17,277 --> 01:10:23,058
going to like exclude micro strategy here. And I don't think it's been very material at all,

876
01:10:23,058 --> 01:10:26,917
because I don't think there's been a huge amount of Bitcoin bought. And, you know, when you look at

877
01:10:26,917 --> 01:10:32,038
that listing that you read off, some of those were existing coins, right? So in some of the

878
01:10:32,038 --> 01:10:37,058
structures, there wasn't like buy pressure that came in there. It was just coins into a structure

879
01:10:37,058 --> 01:10:37,917
that's still pending.

880
01:10:38,817 --> 01:10:42,058
So of the ones that actually have done buys,

881
01:10:42,337 --> 01:10:45,717
I think it's, I mean, it's less than the Galaxy seller.

882
01:10:45,917 --> 01:10:48,038
So we saw in real time,

883
01:10:48,237 --> 01:10:53,837
someone unload 80,000 with a negligible,

884
01:10:54,117 --> 01:10:56,038
you know, one or two or 3%, right?

885
01:10:56,598 --> 01:10:56,958
And so-

886
01:10:56,958 --> 01:10:58,098
That's gotta be one of the most bullish things

887
01:10:58,098 --> 01:10:59,018
that's happened this cycle.

888
01:10:59,337 --> 01:10:59,538
Yeah.

889
01:10:59,538 --> 01:11:01,098
The fact that made very little difference.

890
01:11:01,477 --> 01:11:01,898
Absolutely.

891
01:11:02,438 --> 01:11:04,377
I mean, it's, yeah.

892
01:11:04,598 --> 01:11:06,757
And I'll be, I have to be careful what I say here,

893
01:11:06,757 --> 01:11:10,337
but like we recently did a large purchase, right?

894
01:11:10,458 --> 01:11:11,898
Like we did it.

895
01:11:12,337 --> 01:11:13,657
It's a liquid market.

896
01:11:14,157 --> 01:11:15,058
Like that's what I'll say.

897
01:11:15,137 --> 01:11:17,877
It's like, it's a liquid, it's a real liquid market.

898
01:11:18,117 --> 01:11:18,697
And that's great.

899
01:11:20,317 --> 01:11:23,877
And so, you know, if you just take all those treasury companies

900
01:11:23,877 --> 01:11:30,438
and, you know, add it up, it's sub the galaxy seller,

901
01:11:30,737 --> 01:11:33,518
or at least it was when I did these calculations last time.

902
01:11:33,518 --> 01:11:39,257
So I don't think it's been mechanically like a big component.

903
01:11:39,637 --> 01:11:45,077
Maybe the narrative has added a little special sauce to it where everyone's like, whoa, there's all these treasury companies.

904
01:11:45,177 --> 01:11:46,177
Let me buy some more Bitcoin.

905
01:11:47,077 --> 01:11:56,377
But I think it's I think I don't think it's been a huge driver on like the price of Bitcoin, which has been I think it's had a great year, but it's been lower volatility.

906
01:11:56,817 --> 01:12:00,237
And then I think this is a point HODL made that I wanted to jump on.

907
01:12:00,237 --> 01:12:10,217
Um, yeah, I, I think these companies like in some ways, um, like volatility as a service,

908
01:12:10,217 --> 01:12:16,217
or they're a way to go get higher vol on Bitcoin, like, and like Bitcoin's trading at lower vol

909
01:12:16,217 --> 01:12:21,877
in some reasons, in some ways you could even like, including micro strategy, you could argue that

910
01:12:21,877 --> 01:12:25,917
the treasury companies are stabilizing it a little bit. There's, they're almost, they're

911
01:12:25,917 --> 01:12:31,777
almost exporting the vol. They're saying, hey, we're going to bid Bitcoin every week, no matter

912
01:12:31,777 --> 01:12:37,058
what. And that's going to stabilize Bitcoin. And then we're going to trade at a higher volatility.

913
01:12:37,938 --> 01:12:43,998
Do I think that that has really happened at scale yet? Not to a huge degree, but I think it

914
01:12:43,998 --> 01:12:47,297
absolutely could be part of the landscape you're looking at.

915
01:12:48,458 --> 01:12:51,938
Well, I guess that also plays into the hands of your narrative in the sense that if the

916
01:12:51,938 --> 01:12:55,857
category of Bitcoin is dropping over time, like that makes the treasury plays more interesting.

917
01:12:57,157 --> 01:13:03,977
Yeah. I, yeah, I think, I think there's after so many years, I think there's demand for higher

918
01:13:03,977 --> 01:13:08,417
volatility than what Bitcoin's currently given. I think there's interest in that. That's not saying

919
01:13:08,417 --> 01:13:15,458
go put all your money in this or X, Y, Z, but it's saying, Hey, like hot, like let's put 5%,

920
01:13:15,458 --> 01:13:20,837
10%. I'm going to, I'm going to take a portion of my portfolio. Let me do it on a higher vol asset.

921
01:13:20,837 --> 01:13:26,717
like I think there is demand for that yeah hodl you've got a million dollar bitcoin bet with pete

922
01:13:26,717 --> 01:13:35,038
by the end of 2027 how confident you feel I feel decently confident in that actually still still

923
01:13:35,038 --> 01:13:42,757
so you think we get a 10x basically I have until January 1st 2028 so I get okay I get all that

924
01:13:42,757 --> 01:13:43,538
Not 2027.

925
01:13:43,538 --> 01:13:48,518
I got two years and change for that bet to pay off.

926
01:13:49,098 --> 01:13:52,357
I mean, after having been in Bitcoin for a long time,

927
01:13:52,498 --> 01:13:55,137
that's not that big of a move from here to there.

928
01:13:55,857 --> 01:14:01,558
I mean, we just went 15K to 124K.

929
01:14:02,117 --> 01:14:04,098
It's pretty damn close to the same amount

930
01:14:04,098 --> 01:14:05,398
needed to go from here to there.

931
01:14:06,797 --> 01:14:09,917
Really, it's contingent on is the four-year cycle over.

932
01:14:09,917 --> 01:14:16,958
right and so i i guess you know implicitly and explicitly i'm i'm in on that thesis with the

933
01:14:16,958 --> 01:14:22,817
bet with uh pete you know the thing that i could see playing into your hands i don't know if it'd

934
01:14:22,817 --> 01:14:27,058
be anywhere near big enough to get to a million dollars in two years but like i think trump is

935
01:14:27,058 --> 01:14:31,998
going to run things insanely hot next year um everybody's like going into the midterms i yeah

936
01:14:31,998 --> 01:14:35,737
like i maybe that's the problem maybe everyone thinks that and it won't actually happen but um

937
01:14:35,737 --> 01:14:40,038
that's a scenario I could see playing out. Why do you think it can hit a million in such a short

938
01:14:40,038 --> 01:14:44,417
period of time? Well, just I think that, I mean, first of all, that's, you know, it's not that

939
01:14:44,417 --> 01:14:48,117
short of a period of time. It's two years, right? Which is like the same amount of time it took to

940
01:14:48,117 --> 01:14:53,018
go from here to there. And I think, again, like the four year cycle could be over. And so that's

941
01:14:53,018 --> 01:14:59,498
the reason why is because this is trading in an entirely new way. That's, you know, unknown to most

942
01:14:59,498 --> 01:15:00,717
of the actors in the space.

943
01:15:01,257 --> 01:15:05,477
So like, yeah, if we get the right macro environment,

944
01:15:05,677 --> 01:15:06,797
that could definitely happen.

945
01:15:07,197 --> 01:15:09,998
I think right now the bet would be to fade me

946
01:15:09,998 --> 01:15:11,558
and think Pete is going to win the bet.

947
01:15:12,137 --> 01:15:13,938
But I'm, I don't know.

948
01:15:13,998 --> 01:15:16,617
I still feel like I have a decent 50-50 odds

949
01:15:16,617 --> 01:15:17,217
in order to win.

950
01:15:18,877 --> 01:15:20,217
I fucking hope you win that bet.

951
01:15:20,357 --> 01:15:21,038
Well, we all hope.

952
01:15:21,237 --> 01:15:22,877
We all hope I win that bet, right?

953
01:15:23,598 --> 01:15:25,038
Even Pete hopes you win that bet.

954
01:15:26,538 --> 01:15:28,038
All right, before we close out,

955
01:15:28,098 --> 01:15:29,337
anything you want to finish on?

956
01:15:29,498 --> 01:15:53,598
This maybe isn't the closing note, but you mentioned running it hot. You have to. You have to. That's also part of the landscape here is we tried to rein in the spending. We tried to cut. We tried to rein it in. We tried to shore it up. The market pitched a fit.

957
01:15:53,598 --> 01:16:06,357
it was politically challenging to do. And I mean, it's a valiant effort in many ways,

958
01:16:06,477 --> 01:16:11,898
but what ended up happening was the reality of you got to grow your way out of it, or at least

959
01:16:11,898 --> 01:16:18,237
try to grow your way out of it. And you're seeing that messaging coming out of the treasury.

960
01:16:18,237 --> 01:16:25,518
that's this whole stable coin like the state it's like a it's like a twin stable coin ai bet where

961
01:16:25,518 --> 01:16:30,458
it's like we're gonna get a lot more buyers for the debt we're gonna issue a ton more debt we're

962
01:16:30,458 --> 01:16:36,757
gonna invest an astronomically huge amount of money into like ai infrastructure and data centers

963
01:16:36,757 --> 01:16:43,657
and uh like we're gonna we're gonna try to drive growth and and that means like a huge amount of

964
01:16:43,657 --> 01:16:53,177
money coming to the market. It's very bullish for Bitcoin. And it's at a time where I think

965
01:16:53,177 --> 01:17:03,398
there are significant uncertainties in the larger world that are both fiscal and macro that are

966
01:17:03,398 --> 01:17:08,898
reasons why you'd want to own Bitcoin, like expanding fiscal deficits, more money. Also,

967
01:17:08,898 --> 01:17:14,958
AI in a way I think that people aren't talking about of like, if you do actually get like the

968
01:17:14,958 --> 01:17:22,477
bullish AI scenario where there is like a real disruption of like certain jobs and things that

969
01:17:22,477 --> 01:17:28,797
puts a whole lot of variability into like equities, right? Like there could be a lot of equities

970
01:17:28,797 --> 01:17:36,337
that, um, their future earnings are very unpredictable. Like if AI starts moving fast

971
01:17:36,337 --> 01:17:42,077
enough, it's very hard for me to be like, well, this database company, like, what are they going

972
01:17:42,077 --> 01:17:47,458
to be like in five years? Or McKinsey, is McKinsey going to be around in five? Like, I mean, if AI

973
01:17:47,458 --> 01:17:53,538
goes fast enough, I legitimately don't know. Will that happen? I don't know. But all of that to say,

974
01:17:53,538 --> 01:18:00,598
it gives you a kind of unique, unique, a unique thing where it's like, well, do you want to keep

975
01:18:00,598 --> 01:18:07,577
betting on the forecasting of specific earnings? Or do you want to own a fixed supply monetary asset

976
01:18:07,577 --> 01:18:13,697
that's just going to kind of broadly benefit from these net trends, right? I think that becomes a

977
01:18:13,697 --> 01:18:20,377
more compelling pitch to somebody, right? I think it just, it's more reasonable. It's got the backing

978
01:18:20,377 --> 01:18:26,938
of BlackRock. There's institutional level liquidity. It's accepted now. So all of that to

979
01:18:26,938 --> 01:18:33,077
say, like, I do think one of the other stories in this whole thing is that we're in an incredibly

980
01:18:33,077 --> 01:18:43,538
constructive environment for Bitcoin's growth. And Bitcoin keeps growing robustly. It's not hard

981
01:18:43,538 --> 01:18:48,938
to bet on companies that are just saying, hey, we're going to pull all the levers we can to buy

982
01:18:48,938 --> 01:18:53,977
more Bitcoin. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, things are tougher in a big Bitcoin bear market

983
01:18:53,977 --> 01:18:54,917
and all those sort of things.

984
01:18:55,237 --> 01:18:57,058
And I do believe fundamentally,

985
01:18:57,058 --> 01:18:59,577
like you need a management team

986
01:18:59,577 --> 01:19:01,077
that has a plan for that,

987
01:19:01,157 --> 01:19:02,237
that is preparing for that,

988
01:19:02,337 --> 01:19:02,877
that doesn't,

989
01:19:03,117 --> 01:19:03,837
like the whole business

990
01:19:03,837 --> 01:19:05,637
isn't betting on this going up forever.

991
01:19:06,958 --> 01:19:08,177
That being said,

992
01:19:08,417 --> 01:19:10,837
I think it's a very constructive landscape

993
01:19:10,837 --> 01:19:12,777
and it would not surprise me at all

994
01:19:12,777 --> 01:19:15,857
to see Bitcoin up this year,

995
01:19:16,157 --> 01:19:17,998
next year, the year after.

996
01:19:18,657 --> 01:19:20,157
I just, it wouldn't surprise me.

997
01:19:20,157 --> 01:19:23,217
Green, green, green, green, green, green.

998
01:19:23,217 --> 01:19:25,077
That's the new meme.

999
01:19:25,598 --> 01:19:27,677
No, I'll close with this.

1000
01:19:27,877 --> 01:19:29,337
You know, when we were in Vegas together,

1001
01:19:29,477 --> 01:19:33,137
you asked me about the morality of treasury companies.

1002
01:19:33,797 --> 01:19:35,438
And, you know, there was kind of this pause

1003
01:19:35,438 --> 01:19:37,038
in the conversation where me and you were both like,

1004
01:19:37,177 --> 01:19:37,477
hmm.

1005
01:19:37,898 --> 01:19:39,237
I've thought about that a lot since.

1006
01:19:39,438 --> 01:19:41,458
I've thought about it a lot since that moment too.

1007
01:19:41,637 --> 01:19:43,297
And I think I've come to a conclusion,

1008
01:19:43,417 --> 01:19:45,637
which is if you look at this from the outside,

1009
01:19:45,737 --> 01:19:47,598
I mean, let's just call it what it is.

1010
01:19:47,657 --> 01:19:48,817
This is shit coining.

1011
01:19:48,998 --> 01:19:50,038
It's a form of shit coining.

1012
01:19:50,237 --> 01:19:51,797
Everything that's not Bitcoin is a shit coin.

1013
01:19:52,177 --> 01:19:54,377
So this is, in some sense, a form of shitcoin.

1014
01:19:54,438 --> 01:20:00,377
And some of the things that are going on in treasury companies, they mirror what went on in shitcoins, right?

1015
01:20:00,377 --> 01:20:04,117
Like with the private placements, insider access.

1016
01:20:06,637 --> 01:20:16,637
The most uncharitable view of treasury companies I could give you is that it's a classic, you send me one Bitcoin, I send you two Bitcoin back scam.

1017
01:20:16,877 --> 01:20:19,038
But the two Bitcoin is in the form of the MNAV, right?

1018
01:20:19,038 --> 01:20:22,237
So that's the most possibly uncharitable view I could give.

1019
01:20:22,538 --> 01:20:24,398
I don't believe that to be true.

1020
01:20:24,598 --> 01:20:29,157
I think it is like a straight up game and that's why it's morally defensible to play.

1021
01:20:29,498 --> 01:20:34,917
But then I thought about the conversation that me and you had and I was thinking, what is the deeper meta here?

1022
01:20:35,177 --> 01:20:37,617
Why do I have a feeling that this is okay?

1023
01:20:37,757 --> 01:20:44,257
Whereas when we were participating in the markets a few years ago, I had a feeling that it was immoral to shitcoin, right?

1024
01:20:44,777 --> 01:20:47,737
And I think a part of it is about alignment.

1025
01:20:48,277 --> 01:20:51,377
So we have had a tremendously, all of us,

1026
01:20:51,458 --> 01:20:56,117
we've had a tremendously difficult time getting horses to drink.

1027
01:20:56,197 --> 01:20:59,617
We've been leading people to the water, but we cannot make people drink.

1028
01:20:59,737 --> 01:21:01,737
So like we, you know, we're all the annoying,

1029
01:21:01,917 --> 01:21:03,477
probably everybody that listens to this podcast,

1030
01:21:03,817 --> 01:21:06,377
unless they're brand new, is the annoying Bitcoin guy

1031
01:21:06,377 --> 01:21:08,717
in their friend circle or their family circle.

1032
01:21:08,898 --> 01:21:10,998
And you've been giving the rant and, you know,

1033
01:21:11,058 --> 01:21:12,498
Jay Powell's going to do this.

1034
01:21:12,538 --> 01:21:15,717
And the geopolitics of the situation in the Ukraine are this.

1035
01:21:15,717 --> 01:21:19,237
And, oh, did you know that Bitcoin is strictly limited to 21 million?

1036
01:21:19,417 --> 01:21:22,558
And, oh, by the way, Satoshi Nakamoto, this and that, blah, blah, blah.

1037
01:21:22,717 --> 01:21:23,938
We're all that guy, right?

1038
01:21:24,357 --> 01:21:30,357
And, you know, to be frank, most of our family members look at us like we're a combination of insane and retarded.

1039
01:21:30,657 --> 01:21:41,917
And then they choose not to buy any Bitcoin because we kind of are unkempt and unwashed and uncouth and, you know, just not really well-mannered in society.

1040
01:21:41,917 --> 01:21:42,877
And that's on us.

1041
01:21:42,877 --> 01:21:47,037
Maybe some of us should take a shower and put on a nice shirt every once in a while.

1042
01:21:48,157 --> 01:21:52,717
But I was thinking about this and I was like, okay, it actually pains me that I can't save people.

1043
01:21:53,498 --> 01:21:54,297
Call it what you want.

1044
01:21:54,357 --> 01:21:55,138
It's survivor's guilt.

1045
01:21:55,277 --> 01:21:55,777
It's this or that.

1046
01:21:55,857 --> 01:21:58,717
But I'm actually kind of unwilling to leave people behind.

1047
01:21:59,398 --> 01:22:02,138
And I was like, what does all this have to do with the treasury companies?

1048
01:22:02,237 --> 01:22:07,898
Is that via passive indexation, we are embedding a shitload of Bitcoin in the public markets.

1049
01:22:07,898 --> 01:22:15,458
There's 162 million Americans that invest in the public markets, either in the form of straight up stock investment, 401ks or pensions.

1050
01:22:15,617 --> 01:22:26,877
So we are giving those people 162 million Americans, plus investors from foreign markets who invest in the American markets, either via their sovereign wealth fund or straight up.

1051
01:22:27,018 --> 01:22:29,837
We are giving them access to Bitcoin exposure.

1052
01:22:30,077 --> 01:22:32,977
So they are getting Bitcoin, whether they like it or not.

1053
01:22:32,977 --> 01:22:35,617
and we're able to actually put them in a lifeboat

1054
01:22:35,617 --> 01:22:38,638
because we know the Titanic hit the iceberg two hours ago

1055
01:22:38,638 --> 01:22:40,357
and the water's up to our ankles

1056
01:22:40,357 --> 01:22:41,898
and we're not going to be in denial about it.

1057
01:22:42,037 --> 01:22:43,237
We're going to get people in the lifeboat.

1058
01:22:43,577 --> 01:22:45,617
And I think that's part of what is going on

1059
01:22:45,617 --> 01:22:46,638
in treasury companies

1060
01:22:46,638 --> 01:22:48,837
is we're embedding Bitcoin in the markets

1061
01:22:48,837 --> 01:22:51,317
in a way that's accessible to a vast majority

1062
01:22:51,317 --> 01:22:54,117
of passive indexation investors, right?

1063
01:22:54,117 --> 01:22:56,577
And of which there are 162 million.

1064
01:22:57,377 --> 01:23:00,157
So that plus combined with the SBR

1065
01:23:00,157 --> 01:23:01,857
is how you get the rest of the Americans in.

1066
01:23:01,857 --> 01:23:05,717
And then you basically, you get to live in a world in which your Bitcoin goes way up,

1067
01:23:05,837 --> 01:23:11,277
but you don't have to, you don't have to suffer and watch everyone else suffer alongside you

1068
01:23:11,277 --> 01:23:15,277
as you're getting richer, because that's, that's not a world that anybody actually wants to live in.

1069
01:23:15,598 --> 01:23:17,177
I don't want to like that's Citadel theory.

1070
01:23:17,257 --> 01:23:20,737
I don't want to live in a Citadel while people are dying outside the walls of the Citadel.

1071
01:23:20,977 --> 01:23:26,337
I want to do my best to ensure that the people that live around me are taken care of.

1072
01:23:26,938 --> 01:23:29,598
And you know, that everything is going to be copacetic now.

1073
01:23:29,598 --> 01:23:30,998
Okay, I can hear the people being like,

1074
01:23:31,077 --> 01:23:33,917
awfully high-minded bullshit for a shit corner.

1075
01:23:34,037 --> 01:23:35,117
What happened to you, dude?

1076
01:23:35,317 --> 01:23:36,537
I used to listen to you, dude.

1077
01:23:36,577 --> 01:23:39,018
I brown bagged my lunch because of you, American HODL, dude.

1078
01:23:39,257 --> 01:23:41,617
I fucking, I named my kid after you, dude.

1079
01:23:41,837 --> 01:23:44,417
I fucking, I lived my life by some of your mottos, dude.

1080
01:23:44,458 --> 01:23:45,417
I have 6.15.

1081
01:23:45,417 --> 01:23:46,617
What happened to you, dude?

1082
01:23:46,977 --> 01:23:48,977
You think it's okay to do treasury companies?

1083
01:23:49,077 --> 01:23:50,018
Dude, fuck you, dude.

1084
01:23:50,577 --> 01:23:51,477
Fuck you, man.

1085
01:23:51,877 --> 01:23:52,837
Fucking piece of shit.

1086
01:23:52,898 --> 01:23:53,537
So I can hear that.

1087
01:23:53,577 --> 01:23:54,138
I understand.

1088
01:23:55,077 --> 01:23:57,998
But that said, that said,

1089
01:23:57,998 --> 01:24:04,398
I do think that this is the meta on the morality of shitcoin treasury companies.

1090
01:24:04,697 --> 01:24:13,797
And to be honest, there's alignment with us too.

1091
01:24:13,917 --> 01:24:22,638
Because if Bitcoin goes up tremendously and our friends and neighbors and family don't have any Bitcoin, they're going to want to kill us and take our Bitcoin.

1092
01:24:22,638 --> 01:24:24,898
so let's prevent that from happening

1093
01:24:24,898 --> 01:24:26,757
by embedding bitcoin deep in the public

1094
01:24:26,757 --> 01:24:28,537
market so later it can be seized by the government

1095
01:24:28,537 --> 01:24:30,498
y'all I'm American HODL it was great to be here

1096
01:24:30,498 --> 01:24:31,537
I hope you have me back

1097
01:24:31,537 --> 01:24:34,837
what a way to

1098
01:24:34,837 --> 01:24:36,657
close out Stephen any last

1099
01:24:36,657 --> 01:24:38,697
things where can people find you where do people find out more

1100
01:24:38,697 --> 01:24:40,537
about Nakamoto show your links

1101
01:24:40,537 --> 01:24:41,817
HODL that was fucking amazing

1102
01:24:41,817 --> 01:24:44,337
yeah I'm on Twitter

1103
01:24:44,337 --> 01:24:46,677
Stephen Luka look up

1104
01:24:46,677 --> 01:24:48,638
my name DMs are open reach out

1105
01:24:48,638 --> 01:24:50,438
anytime Nakamoto also

1106
01:24:50,438 --> 01:24:53,558
So on Twitter, Nakamoto.com, we got a great URL.

1107
01:24:55,617 --> 01:24:58,377
Yeah, just I run investor relations.

1108
01:24:58,697 --> 01:25:03,458
So if you have questions or you want to learn more, I'm the right guy to reach out to and happy to chat.

1109
01:25:04,257 --> 01:25:07,777
And go to primal.net for slash hodl for hodl's daily vlogs.

1110
01:25:09,277 --> 01:25:10,138
This is amazing.

1111
01:25:10,297 --> 01:25:10,817
Thank you, guys.

1112
01:25:10,898 --> 01:25:11,558
Appreciate it.

1113
01:25:11,877 --> 01:25:12,717
Yeah, absolutely.

1114
01:25:13,098 --> 01:25:13,717
Good to be here.

1115
01:25:20,438 --> 01:25:26,438
I walk by, I'm dead inside, I remain my kid

1116
01:25:26,438 --> 01:25:32,438
I ain't know about that, Treasury Company, Danny's so bald

1117
01:25:32,438 --> 01:25:36,438
We can see his thoughts, and they not good

1118
01:25:36,438 --> 01:25:39,438
Treasury Company

1119
01:25:39,438 --> 01:25:43,438
What Bitcoin did, do and shit caught it

1120
01:25:43,438 --> 01:25:46,438
But it's cool now, cause it's Treasury Company

1121
01:25:46,438 --> 01:25:49,438
The American Heart Elf, you're dead to me

1122
01:25:49,438 --> 01:25:53,777
Steven Lovka can walk on by

1123
01:25:53,777 --> 01:25:55,058
Q1&A

1124
01:25:55,058 --> 01:26:01,577
Q1&A