1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,100
We've been sold this idea that like the way that web works now is like the only way to do it.

2
00:00:07,180 --> 00:00:12,180
Like massive data surveillance gets you addicted. There's a better path. It's just a harder path.

3
00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:15,840
We always say like fix the money, fix the world. The money is just one piece of it.

4
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,620
We got to fix the other things too. The dollar is in such a bad position

5
00:00:20,620 --> 00:00:26,200
that there's just no way out besides just inflation and irrelevance.

6
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:32,940
people are going to look for an option that doesn't require trust in a post-truth world

7
00:00:32,940 --> 00:00:36,560
bitcoin is truth like it's the only thing that you know is real and tangible

8
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:43,860
but we need to accelerate time is of the essence it's not an emergency but sooner would be better

9
00:00:43,860 --> 00:00:52,420
and so now you have a backup mic that's the odell mic yeah so we can't go wrong now i love

10
00:00:52,420 --> 00:00:56,060
so you think of me every time you record i just think of you every day man there you go

11
00:00:56,060 --> 00:00:57,080
How are you doing?

12
00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:57,960
I'm doing all right.

13
00:00:58,300 --> 00:00:58,680
How are you?

14
00:00:58,860 --> 00:00:59,180
Good.

15
00:00:59,380 --> 00:01:00,060
I don't know what we're going to talk about.

16
00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:01,060
Good to have you back in Nashville.

17
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:02,220
It's good to be back in Nashville.

18
00:01:02,540 --> 00:01:02,900
Your hometown.

19
00:01:04,340 --> 00:01:05,100
I like it here.

20
00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:06,500
We've got a lot to do.

21
00:01:08,140 --> 00:01:10,300
Do you want to talk about Knott's or the treasury companies first?

22
00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:10,640
I don't know.

23
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:11,880
You're the podcast host.

24
00:01:12,460 --> 00:01:14,180
They're the two things you said you didn't want to talk about.

25
00:01:15,060 --> 00:01:17,020
When are you going to get me in trouble for a second?

26
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:18,760
Well, that was the plan.

27
00:01:18,860 --> 00:01:19,960
Now we kind of have to talk about it.

28
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,340
Is that really your top note?

29
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:22,960
This is Luke Roman's notes.

30
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,000
I've not even got yours here.

31
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,640
Does my show come out after Luke's?

32
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:27,260
Yeah.

33
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,680
It's like he's just going to crush me in the numbers.

34
00:01:30,980 --> 00:01:32,480
Well, yeah, but you might go straight after him

35
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,620
and he might give you a little bit of a boost.

36
00:01:33,620 --> 00:01:34,200
That's good, yeah.

37
00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:35,060
Put me right after him.

38
00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:36,260
Because everyone's kind of forgotten about you

39
00:01:36,260 --> 00:01:36,720
and now you're not on Twitter.

40
00:01:37,140 --> 00:01:38,520
That's the way it's supposed to be.

41
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,120
But you say you're not on Twitter.

42
00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:41,820
I'm not on Twitter anymore, yeah.

43
00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:42,200
Yeah.

44
00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:43,580
Who runs 1031 account?

45
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,240
We have a...

46
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:45,640
An intern.

47
00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,160
An intern that uses a LLM

48
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:50,680
that's trained on my Twitter archive.

49
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,120
Do you still have that Twitter account?

50
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,180
I have the archive.

51
00:01:54,580 --> 00:01:57,060
Do you know when you closed that down for like a week afterwards,

52
00:01:57,140 --> 00:01:58,660
I was desperately trying to get the Odell handle?

53
00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:00,380
They still have it locked.

54
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:01,380
You have to pay for it.

55
00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:03,320
I would pay for that.

56
00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,460
It's a primo handle.

57
00:02:05,860 --> 00:02:07,920
I think they're charging like 100k for it or something.

58
00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:09,160
Okay, I wouldn't pay that for it.

59
00:02:10,140 --> 00:02:11,280
Do you regret leaving Twitter?

60
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,380
It was definitely bad for business.

61
00:02:17,380 --> 00:02:21,380
The 1031 guys deserve a shout for...

62
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,120
being supportive when I deleted our greatest asset

63
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,120
from a public messaging point of view.

64
00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:32,540
So now you're just trying to grow the 1031 account.

65
00:02:32,660 --> 00:02:33,700
But I don't know if it was even,

66
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,360
like in hindsight, I get why you did it.

67
00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:36,220
I think it's kind of cool.

68
00:02:36,660 --> 00:02:38,480
Like money where your mouth is, move to NOSTA.

69
00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:40,720
But would it have been better to have kept that

70
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,300
and just push people to NOSTA from there?

71
00:02:42,660 --> 00:02:43,720
I mean, that's always the argument.

72
00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:45,520
I mean, once again, I think,

73
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:52,820
I mean, I think it's like, what is the goals, right?

74
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,300
If the goals were boost 1031's outward exposure,

75
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,160
so like from selfish goals, right?

76
00:03:02,860 --> 00:03:04,960
The move would have been in hindsight

77
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,620
to just change that Twitter account to 1031

78
00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:10,500
and just use that as the 1031 account

79
00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:12,620
and it already would have 300,000 followers, right?

80
00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:13,860
And at this point,

81
00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:15,460
it probably would have like 500,000 followers.

82
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,160
The good news is

83
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:24,100
1031's in a great spot without it

84
00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:26,360
I think OpenSats is in a great spot without it

85
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,080
Bitcoin Park's in a great spot without it

86
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,220
I think Noster's in a great spot without it

87
00:03:30,220 --> 00:03:32,160
so those are my three projects

88
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:32,640
plus

89
00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:36,320
you know a protocol that I've been intimately focused

90
00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,100
with and I think

91
00:03:38,100 --> 00:03:42,220
I think definitely if you look at it from just a

92
00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:44,160
straight commercial point of view like I deleted

93
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,320
an asset right and

94
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,700
financially questionable decision.

95
00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:53,000
I think if you think about it

96
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,920
from a personal priorities point of view,

97
00:03:57,460 --> 00:04:01,260
it was like a massive success.

98
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,240
And I really do not regret it.

99
00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:07,160
The worry I had is

100
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,660
the worry I had is that

101
00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:15,680
I think we're all

102
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,720
have an unhealthy relationship

103
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:18,720
most of us

104
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:19,560
myself included

105
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,720
have an unhealthy relationship

106
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:21,320
with our devices

107
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:21,880
on the internet

108
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:22,580
yeah

109
00:04:22,580 --> 00:04:23,760
and my only social media

110
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:24,600
was X

111
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,860
and Twitter before it

112
00:04:26,860 --> 00:04:28,200
and I had definitely

113
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,360
had an unhealthy relationship

114
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:29,740
with it

115
00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:31,880
and no matter how much

116
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,000
you try and ground yourself

117
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,120
you know

118
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:35,060
the dopamine hits

119
00:04:35,060 --> 00:04:35,900
are just like the likes

120
00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:36,700
and the retweets

121
00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:38,580
is massive

122
00:04:38,580 --> 00:04:40,240
and

123
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:50,480
And I think when I first started, I wasn't always a public individual within Bitcoin.

124
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,900
In the beginning, I would use NIMS, and I was very private in it.

125
00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,380
And then it was after Trump won his first term that I became public.

126
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,420
And I kind of just stumbled into it.

127
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,260
And the next thing you know, it's like a top four Twitter account in Bitcoin.

128
00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:09,820
And I stopped using it for six months, and it just kept growing.

129
00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:16,000
it still was growing like super fast just on all the old posts and the whole time i was like oh well

130
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,160
you know like i've already made these decisions like now i'm here now i'm here like there's no

131
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,080
going back but then i just came to the conclusion i was like there actually is going back like i

132
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,260
could just fucking delete the thing and i could just live my life and like not be a public figure

133
00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:32,940
and in that way i think it was a massive success like i think there's probably a whole slew of new

134
00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:38,600
listeners to your show that i have no idea who i am and that is just beautiful like i do not want

135
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:44,780
to be a niche celebrity. I do not want to be a public face of Bitcoin. I want to live a quiet

136
00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:54,380
life focused on trying to make freedom technologies more used at scale. And I think there's probably

137
00:05:54,380 --> 00:06:02,000
a place for influencers in that, but I don't think that's the most key aspect of it. I think

138
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,980
the key aspect of it is actually how the tools get built out and how they get distributed to people

139
00:06:06,980 --> 00:06:10,020
so that they can actually make those decisions themselves

140
00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:10,700
and move forward.

141
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:11,280
It's funny.

142
00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:12,640
I was talking to Sessions yesterday

143
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,100
and he said, he just had you on the show.

144
00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:14,660
Yeah.

145
00:06:14,900 --> 00:06:16,380
And he said, do a lot of comments being like,

146
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,340
who's this guy just saying Bitcoin catchphrases?

147
00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:20,020
He's the guy that came up with them.

148
00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:21,940
Yeah, they thought I was just like repeating

149
00:06:21,940 --> 00:06:23,020
Stay Humble, Stack Sacks.

150
00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:25,680
Like I hadn't come up with it.

151
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,320
But yeah, to me, that's a success, right?

152
00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:35,620
Yeah, I just, look, it's always been something

153
00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:36,240
I wrestled with.

154
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,300
It's something I still wrestle with at the podcasts.

155
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,580
And I know I,

156
00:06:43,420 --> 00:06:46,180
and now it's like public that you're a father, right?

157
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,680
Because you made it public on your show.

158
00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:49,120
In this room.

159
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,680
Which is a beautiful experience.

160
00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:53,080
Yep.

161
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,440
And to me, like, it's like, okay,

162
00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:59,540
so like in, in when I'm raising my children,

163
00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,340
what is one of the number one things

164
00:07:02,340 --> 00:07:03,620
that we're going to have to wrestle with?

165
00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:06,040
And that's going to be healthy use of the internet

166
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,320
social media and devices.

167
00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:14,080
And if I have to like look my kids in the eye

168
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,660
and I'm like addicted to social media

169
00:07:17,660 --> 00:07:19,280
and I'm like an influencer or something,

170
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:20,320
to me, it's like,

171
00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,380
it's a step away from OnlyFans.

172
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:23,620
Like people like look at OnlyFans

173
00:07:23,620 --> 00:07:24,840
are like, OnlyFans is horrible.

174
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,360
But then they don't think of like

175
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,700
someone that posts on TikTok every day

176
00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:31,580
or Twitter every day as the same thing.

177
00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:32,480
But it's very close.

178
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,820
It's funny, like I have been really conscious

179
00:07:35,820 --> 00:07:38,480
of trying to not use my phone too much

180
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:38,920
or my daughter.

181
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:39,840
Sometimes you have to.

182
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,760
And I don't let her watch an iPad

183
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:43,620
or any of that stuff.

184
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,820
We occasionally watch a really old Disney movie

185
00:07:45,820 --> 00:07:47,580
because I think it's before all the dopamine hits

186
00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:49,000
of new kids' TV.

187
00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:52,240
But even still, she'll pick up my phone

188
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,740
and she holds it to her ear.

189
00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,980
And she is obviously just mirroring things you've done.

190
00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,820
So you set that example from such a young age.

191
00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,100
It's so hard to not be on your device around them.

192
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,560
And I find myself getting a bit addicted to Twitter again.

193
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,460
Like I've always been quite good.

194
00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:08,640
Like I don't like social media.

195
00:08:08,780 --> 00:08:09,860
I don't like the way it makes me feel.

196
00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:12,620
I'd feel useless after scrolling for 20 minutes or whatever.

197
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,520
Maybe I just need to delete it from my phone.

198
00:08:15,780 --> 00:08:17,020
Like I still need it for the show.

199
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,240
At the very least, you should just delete it from your phone

200
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,940
and then just use it on your computer.

201
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,560
It's like a very easy way to reduce the...

202
00:08:26,140 --> 00:08:27,560
The biggest problem is like the...

203
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,380
There's a moment, there's like a quiet moment.

204
00:08:32,540 --> 00:08:33,120
And so what do you do?

205
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:34,320
You just reach for your phone,

206
00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:36,240
and then before you know it, you're just doom scrolling.

207
00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:37,140
It's an hour later.

208
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:37,840
Right?

209
00:08:37,940 --> 00:08:39,920
And so this is something I think about a lot, right?

210
00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,900
As we build out Primal and Noster,

211
00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,060
is there a better way?

212
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,600
Because it's obviously clearly a useful tool.

213
00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:48,880
We wouldn't be friends.

214
00:08:50,020 --> 00:08:51,580
Most of my friends I wouldn't be friends with

215
00:08:51,580 --> 00:08:52,280
if it wasn't for X.

216
00:08:52,420 --> 00:08:52,620
Yeah.

217
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:53,480
Period.

218
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,720
But you can also trick yourself into thinking it's for work.

219
00:08:56,980 --> 00:08:58,300
Because it is good for news.

220
00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:00,440
But if I'm being honest for myself,

221
00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,500
Most of the time, I'm just doom scrolling through stupid videos and stuff.

222
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:12,440
Well, like, so for instance, like Kagi, which is like a privacy focused search engine, whose business model, instead of harvesting your data, is they just charge you for a subscription.

223
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,020
They just released a news app like three days ago, four days ago.

224
00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:19,360
And what they do is it's once a day.

225
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:27,520
They give you all the relevant news and they run it through AI and give you nice condensed AI summaries of it.

226
00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:30,320
That's kind of cool.

227
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,660
With no ads and no clickbait.

228
00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,020
And they're just using it as top of funnel for their other premium services.

229
00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:40,720
But my point is, we've been sold this idea.

230
00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,760
And technology-wise, that's not a hard thing to do.

231
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,860
There was just a will to do it and a business model that facilitated it.

232
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:53,360
And we've been sold this idea that the way that web works now is the only way to do it.

233
00:09:53,660 --> 00:09:57,260
Massive data surveillance, get you addicted, get all the dopamine rush,

234
00:09:57,260 --> 00:09:59,940
monetize your attention to its fullest,

235
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,200
monetize your data to the fullest.

236
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:02,640
That's not the only way to do things.

237
00:10:03,460 --> 00:10:05,060
There's a better path.

238
00:10:05,140 --> 00:10:06,100
It's just a harder path.

239
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,300
And so that's a much healthier way of,

240
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,060
so for example, this one app, right?

241
00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:16,940
It's just a healthier way to consume news.

242
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,960
It's not based on addiction.

243
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,460
I'm smiling because I'm so paranoid that we're recording.

244
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:23,420
Are we recording?

245
00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:24,840
Yeah, I've checked like five times.

246
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,040
We have that mic recording too, right?

247
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:27,840
Yeah, we're good.

248
00:10:27,980 --> 00:10:29,640
Is the red over there mean we're recording?

249
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,580
No, that's something different, but we are recording.

250
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:32,260
Are you sure?

251
00:10:32,420 --> 00:10:32,900
Yeah, I'm sure.

252
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,840
Anyway, so it's something I wrestle with.

253
00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:40,500
And it's like, even so we're seeing with like the,

254
00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:43,100
we had the Charlie Kirk assassination, right?

255
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:50,560
And we see there's a push to add more controls to the internet

256
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:54,540
because of this idea that youth are getting radicalized on the internet.

257
00:10:54,540 --> 00:10:54,900
Yep.

258
00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:59,880
and it's a very slippery slope

259
00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,980
regulating the internet

260
00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:03,920
and regulating speech

261
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,420
and regulating how people use these tools

262
00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:07,220
and I just wholeheartedly disagree with it.

263
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,300
I do not think that's the path

264
00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:09,600
but the reason I bring it up

265
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,240
is because there is a kernel of truth there.

266
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,140
There are youth getting radicalized on the internet.

267
00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:14,780
100%.

268
00:11:14,780 --> 00:11:16,360
And then farther down that line

269
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:17,980
there are just people that have

270
00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:19,280
most people just have

271
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,040
a very unhealthy relationship with it

272
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,060
particularly children

273
00:11:22,060 --> 00:11:23,180
but even adults.

274
00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:28,320
and so as a society this is something we have to grapple with and as parents this is something that

275
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,080
we have to really grapple with if we want to raise our children right um and and i personally want to

276
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:40,520
be part of that solution even if it might not even if we might not be successful like i think that's

277
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:46,420
a worthy path this episode is brought to you by the massive legends iron the largest nasdaq listed

278
00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:51,580
bitcoin miner using 100 renewable energy iron are not just powering the bitcoin network they're also

279
00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:56,820
providing cutting-edge computing resources for AI all backed by renewable energy. We've been working

280
00:11:56,820 --> 00:12:00,140
with our founders Dan and Will for quite some time now and have been really impressed with their

281
00:12:00,140 --> 00:12:04,340
values especially their commitment to local communities and sustainable computing power.

282
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,040
So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power,

283
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:13,700
IREN is setting the standard. Visit iren.com to learn more which is I-R-E-N.com.

284
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,180
If you're already self-custody of Bitcoin you know the deal with hardware wallets,

285
00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:22,160
complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten.

286
00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:27,580
Well, BitKey fixes that. BitKey is a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square

287
00:12:27,580 --> 00:12:32,760
and Cash App. It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an

288
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:38,500
intuitive, easy-to-use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over. It's simple, secure self-custody

289
00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:44,220
without the stress, and time named BitKey one of the best inventions of 2024. Get 20% off at

290
00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:52,200
bitkey.world when you use code WBD. That's B-I-T-K-E-Y.world and use code WBD. One of the things

291
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,600
that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage.

292
00:12:56,180 --> 00:13:00,600
This is where AnchorWatch comes in. With AnchorWatch, your Bitcoin is insured with your own A-plus

293
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,380
rated Lloyds of London insurance policy and all Bitcoin is held in their time-locked multi-sig

294
00:13:05,380 --> 00:13:09,740
bolts. So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is fully insured while not giving up

295
00:13:09,740 --> 00:13:14,580
custody so whether you're worried about inheritance planning wrench attacks natural disasters or just

296
00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:19,240
your own mistakes you're fully protected by anchor watch rates for fully insured custody start as low

297
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,960
as 0.55 percent and are available for individual and commercial customers located in the us

298
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,420
speak to anchor watch today for a quote and for more details about your security options and

299
00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:34,960
coverage visit anchorwatch.com today that is anchorwatch.com i think people are getting

300
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,800
radicalized like people are definitely getting radicalized on the internet yeah but it's just

301
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:39,680
because that's where they hang out.

302
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,140
Like, if we still lived in meatspace

303
00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:43,220
where people didn't have the internet,

304
00:13:43,340 --> 00:13:44,680
they'd just be getting radicalized somewhere else.

305
00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:46,500
We need to fix the issue of the radicalization,

306
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:47,900
not control the internet.

307
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:49,640
But, like, we're seeing it in the UK

308
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,640
with the digital ID and stuff.

309
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:52,580
It's really bad in the UK.

310
00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:53,540
It's pretty scary.

311
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,740
Like, the...

312
00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:57,700
It's, like, the one place that's worse than Australia.

313
00:13:58,340 --> 00:13:59,020
Australia's...

314
00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:00,480
Well, there's problems with Australia,

315
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:01,740
but it's nowhere near as bad as the UK.

316
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:02,640
Not at the moment.

317
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,220
But, like, I've noticed even traveling.

318
00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,260
because in America, you have like,

319
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,540
you can't go on porn sites in like certain states

320
00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:12,360
and all that sort of stuff.

321
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:13,000
A lot of them.

322
00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:13,380
Yeah.

323
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:14,660
It's like 20 states or something.

324
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:15,860
And that's pretty new, right?

325
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,600
It's like the last year and a half.

326
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:19,720
And like that is the same thing.

327
00:14:20,220 --> 00:14:21,160
I mean, it's more targeted,

328
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,680
but it's the same thing as having like a digital ID,

329
00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:25,120
just having to verify yourself online.

330
00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:27,480
But what I've noticed is since,

331
00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:29,680
especially since the UK have started talking about this,

332
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,180
I've been trying to go to websites

333
00:14:31,180 --> 00:14:33,600
that are just blocked if you use a VPN.

334
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:35,940
And so like-

335
00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:36,800
Because that's the next step.

336
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,100
because if you're in a state

337
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:40,700
where you can't access something

338
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:42,320
you just use a VPN in another state

339
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,360
and so then they block VPNs to stop you from doing that

340
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,620
so is the idea of the free and open internet dead?

341
00:14:48,620 --> 00:14:49,020
no

342
00:14:49,020 --> 00:14:50,320
I think it's alive and well

343
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,340
I think we've been trending in the wrong direction

344
00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:53,920
for a while

345
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,300
and I think

346
00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:59,260
protocols like Nostra could be very helpful

347
00:14:59,260 --> 00:14:59,800
for that

348
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,020
I mean if you look

349
00:15:03,020 --> 00:15:05,380
you follow the incentives all the way down

350
00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:05,920
too right

351
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:23,380
Right. So X, for instance, their policy and their government and policy initiative is actually pushing for states like Texas to add, in their own words, to add age verification at the app store level.

352
00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:27,460
So they don't want to deal with it, but they want their users to be age verified.

353
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:32,720
And why is that? I think that's because then they're able to sell ads easier.

354
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,460
yeah right like like ad providers don't want to take advantage of children necessarily right they

355
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:45,160
want to wipe their hands clean a bit um so i think a lot of this just comes down to what is the core

356
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:52,800
business models of these things um and if the core business model is data we always hear the quote

357
00:15:52,800 --> 00:16:00,060
like data is the new oil um if that's the asset if the asset's the data then ultimately you're

358
00:16:00,060 --> 00:16:05,600
going to have a predatory relationship with your customers. Gmail is, on the surface, a fantastic

359
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,500
product. But the business model is literally harvesting all of your information and then

360
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:12,380
selling it. And training their AI.

361
00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:16,100
There's no way that you'll ever be aligned with your users in that regard.

362
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,660
So it's actually, I just remembered, it was trying to go on YouTube yesterday. YouTube

363
00:16:21,660 --> 00:16:26,880
blocked me because I was running a VPN. Like, it's pretty fucking crazy. But if Nostra is going

364
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:27,920
to be the fix for this,

365
00:16:29,260 --> 00:16:29,540
does it,

366
00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:30,580
do you not have to almost,

367
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:31,920
like at least in its iteration now

368
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,380
with social media

369
00:16:33,380 --> 00:16:34,860
is really the only thing

370
00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:36,060
that's being used widely on Noster.

371
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:37,000
Do you not have-

372
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,020
Not even really, but yeah.

373
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,400
No, like in context, relatively.

374
00:16:41,980 --> 00:16:43,640
Do you not have to just make that

375
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,220
as addictive as Twitter?

376
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,140
Well, so this is the,

377
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:49,900
I mean, look,

378
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:50,920
a lot of these are,

379
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,860
I don't pretend to have the answers, right?

380
00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:56,460
And I also don't pretend

381
00:16:56,460 --> 00:17:10,220
And I think at this point, Bitcoin has had the time in the market and the proof in network effect that it's going to be around for a long, long time.

382
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:11,560
It'll probably outlive us all.

383
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:18,600
I, with high confidence, think, which maybe sounds less crazy, even though this is like probably the 20th time I've said it on the show.

384
00:17:18,940 --> 00:17:20,640
And it gets less crazy every time I say it.

385
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,860
I still expect it to become the reserve currency of the world.

386
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,360
Nostra is very much in its infancy.

387
00:17:25,360 --> 00:17:27,800
It might not be a protocol that is used in 10 years.

388
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:30,440
But something like that, right?

389
00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:37,560
An open, verifiable, permissionless protocol for speech and identity is something we really, really need.

390
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:46,180
Now, once you have that and you have Bitcoin, Bitcoin is effectively an open API for the world, right?

391
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,620
Any developer can hook into Bitcoin and do payments around the world.

392
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:52,240
You don't need a Stripe API.

393
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,500
You don't need to get permission from them and get keys.

394
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:59,580
you don't need to register with them and attach bank accounts and do all this other stuff.

395
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,780
You can just plug right into this open API for the world.

396
00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:09,320
Something like Nostrum becomes an open API for identity and speech and communications.

397
00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:17,060
And so this becomes, and particularly at a time in the internet when we're seeing these big tech platforms become more closed, right?

398
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,560
It's harder than ever to use the XAPI.

399
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:20,860
It's more expensive than ever.

400
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,680
Reddit closes you off unless you use logins.

401
00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:27,040
Instagram, Facebook, all of them do now,

402
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,500
except actually TikTok.

403
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:30,700
And that's just because the CCP wants as many people

404
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:31,780
on their website as possible.

405
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,340
And that probably changes now that Oracle bought it.

406
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,140
And we're going to see Oracle probably do a lot of the same things

407
00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:39,620
in the US that we see with the other big tech companies.

408
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,260
So you have open API for speech and communication.

409
00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:44,700
You have open API for Bitcoin.

410
00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:47,060
And now you have vibe coding coming into it.

411
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:48,740
Right now we're at Global Bitcoin Summit.

412
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:49,860
It's the third year.

413
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,560
We're doing it in partnership with HRF here

414
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:53,940
in Bitcoin Park in Nashville.

415
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:56,440
And we're going to have a vibe coding session

416
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,140
right after this rip, right?

417
00:18:59,540 --> 00:19:00,720
And so when you think about that,

418
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,160
there's a tool called Shakespeare

419
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,720
that's being developed by Alex Gleason

420
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,080
who built Trump's Truth Social platform.

421
00:19:10,660 --> 00:19:12,720
And then I think he'll say it more kindly,

422
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,940
but like Trump kind of fucked him out of Truth Social.

423
00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:16,940
And now he's building on Noster

424
00:19:16,940 --> 00:19:18,340
and he's building this tool called Shakespeare.

425
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,100
And with Shakespeare, with a couple of prompts,

426
00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:22,260
you can build any app that leverages

427
00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:27,480
both Bitcoin and Noster. And it becomes really, really powerful. So this is a very long-winded

428
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,380
way of me saying, yeah, you'll have predatory apps that are built on top of Noster and Bitcoin.

429
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,100
The difference is the user will be able to switch with very little switching costs.

430
00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:43,700
And my assumption, which could be wrong, is that users will use the better apps,

431
00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:50,040
right? Like if there's one video app that's Noster and Bitcoin enabled that has ads and

432
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,160
censorship and then there's one that doesn't,

433
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,760
how many users are going to use the ones with ads and censorship versus the one

434
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,700
that doesn't, right?

435
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:57,400
Like they probably,

436
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,420
probably the majority are going to use the one that's,

437
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,700
that has a healthier relationship with the user and gives them more agency.

438
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:03,440
A hundred percent.

439
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:04,300
Like that's definitely true.

440
00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:05,440
But how do you go from,

441
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,080
from sort of here to there?

442
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:09,360
Cause like network effects matter so much.

443
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,140
Like Noster can already have,

444
00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:11,400
you know,

445
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,360
a video hosting protocol that's better than YouTube in loads of ways.

446
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:15,860
There's no ads,

447
00:20:15,940 --> 00:20:16,360
no censorship,

448
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,760
but you're still not going to get people over from YouTube right now.

449
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:19,720
Like how do you do that?

450
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,500
YouTube has the users. I mean, even Rumble

451
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:22,880
has had trouble.

452
00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:24,740
Look, I think it's two things.

453
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,780
First of all, I wear my Bitcoin hat with all this stuff because

454
00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:29,720
my adult life has

455
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,080
just been focused on Bitcoin, so

456
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,920
that's where my bias is.

457
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:35,600
Save Indeed

458
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,720
says all the time, like, the biggest threat to Bitcoin

459
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,780
is governments responsibly handling their money.

460
00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:41,640
The thing is, like, governments

461
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,220
are never going to responsibly handle their money.

462
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,600
And so, like, the biggest threat to something like

463
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,820
Noster adoption is

464
00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:49,360
governments stop, you know,

465
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,200
trying to censor and control platforms,

466
00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:54,620
and platforms stop trying to harvest as much data as possible

467
00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:56,960
and corral their users into these walled gardens.

468
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,300
And I don't think either of those things are going to happen.

469
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,260
So then the question becomes of timing as people move.

470
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,440
But I also think the example I use a lot is something like Signal,

471
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:14,360
which is not an open protocol, but it's an open...

472
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,160
The apps are open source,

473
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,800
and it's a private and secure messenger

474
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,500
that is nonprofit that just receives donations.

475
00:21:23,740 --> 00:21:26,300
So the project is aligned with its users.

476
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,320
And they have 100 million users, right?

477
00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:31,840
Soon to be less when they have to leave the EU.

478
00:21:32,020 --> 00:21:32,260
Right.

479
00:21:33,980 --> 00:21:37,020
WhatsApp has 5 billion users, right?

480
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,500
I still think Signal's a success.

481
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:40,600
100%.

482
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,300
And the fact that users can choose not to use WhatsApp

483
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:45,160
and can go use Signal is a success.

484
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:46,660
So where am I going with this?

485
00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:59,840
I think in a world where, you know, people are using freedom alternatives of popular tools that leverage Nostra and Bitcoin, and it's 1%, 2% of the population, and that's an option to people, it's a massive success.

486
00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:03,260
Now, the question becomes, do we ever hit 50%, 60%, 70%?

487
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:05,540
I don't know.

488
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:12,540
I think the way you do that probably is build apps that are like in the middle ground that are just better apps.

489
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,300
And if they're better apps, people use them because they're better.

490
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:17,720
This is kind of like when we were talking last time on the show.

491
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,120
And I guess I'd had concerns around the way Bitcoin was trending.

492
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,660
In terms of the way people are actually going to use it,

493
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:27,200
whether it's going to be freedom money or just this financial asset.

494
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,440
And the thing you said then was that a small percentage of people

495
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,260
will use it as freedom money.

496
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:31,500
Yeah.

497
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:32,420
And that's okay.

498
00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:34,860
Like as long as people still can, then it's kind of won.

499
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,260
Maybe this is just the same thing.

500
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:37,300
It's the same thing.

501
00:22:37,340 --> 00:22:38,500
It's the same lens, at least.

502
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:40,500
It's the same way I'm thinking about it.

503
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,920
So just before we recorded the show, we were talking to Obi.

504
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:44,400
Yeah.

505
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,900
And you said that you think Bitcoin will be the global reserve currency, but things like privacy will be used by...

506
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:52,900
I actually said that on the show in 2022.

507
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:53,900
There you go.

508
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:54,900
People can go back to the clips.

509
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:56,900
Have you got anything new to say?

510
00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:09,195
No not really It all been said But Obi said it a scary world when Matt O says something like that Yeah Why do you think that the case I think it just reality I think you have to set your expectations realistically

511
00:23:09,415 --> 00:23:11,215
Otherwise, you're just going to be disappointed, right?

512
00:23:12,415 --> 00:23:15,695
When it comes to tools that enable personal responsibility,

513
00:23:16,375 --> 00:23:19,195
they rely on users to take personal responsibility.

514
00:23:19,795 --> 00:23:23,895
You can't force people to use a freedom-oriented tool by definition.

515
00:23:25,075 --> 00:23:26,915
So it's just the reality of the situation.

516
00:23:26,915 --> 00:23:29,255
You need people to actually move and improve their lives.

517
00:23:32,355 --> 00:23:34,435
So I think these things will take time.

518
00:23:35,495 --> 00:23:51,775
And I think probably in an ideal world, we see them push the mainstream alternatives into healthier relationships with their users, which probably then slows down the adoption of the freedom tools, but still benefits everyone else indirectly.

519
00:23:53,395 --> 00:23:56,395
And I think that's just what we've seen as these things play out.

520
00:23:56,915 --> 00:24:16,335
Right? It's, I mean, the number that I like to point to is, it's something like 300 billion emails are sent per day on the internet. 50% of them are Gmail. So like, if you're at like an early email conference.

521
00:24:17,255 --> 00:24:18,855
Whenever I'm running their own servers.

522
00:24:18,855 --> 00:24:26,535
Yeah. And you ask them like, is one giant American tech company going to be sending and receiving half of the emails per day? They would have been like, ah, definitely not.

523
00:24:26,915 --> 00:24:28,315
And then they would be disappointed.

524
00:24:28,555 --> 00:24:30,255
But if you set your expectations properly

525
00:24:30,255 --> 00:24:32,915
and you start chipping away at those kind of behemoths,

526
00:24:33,015 --> 00:24:34,615
I think then we're winning, right?

527
00:24:35,115 --> 00:24:37,955
And maybe it's a little bit of a perspective hack,

528
00:24:38,035 --> 00:24:39,115
but I think also it's just,

529
00:24:39,295 --> 00:24:41,315
it's a healthier way to approach the movement.

530
00:24:43,415 --> 00:24:45,215
Because I've gotten caught up in the,

531
00:24:45,995 --> 00:24:47,255
people love to hear like,

532
00:24:47,355 --> 00:24:48,955
oh, like everyone's going to use it.

533
00:24:49,115 --> 00:24:50,115
You know, it gets more clicks,

534
00:24:50,235 --> 00:24:51,375
it gets more retweets, whatever,

535
00:24:51,575 --> 00:24:52,555
but none of that shit matters.

536
00:24:53,255 --> 00:24:54,495
Let's be realistic about it.

537
00:24:54,515 --> 00:24:55,495
Let's be honest about it.

538
00:24:55,495 --> 00:24:59,395
and let's just move forward step by step every person you get is a win

539
00:24:59,395 --> 00:25:04,415
um i will say already now with something like nostr

540
00:25:04,415 --> 00:25:14,015
you don't need we have maybe maybe there's i think they say there's 700 million

541
00:25:14,015 --> 00:25:22,795
700 million users of x tiktok's at like one and a half billion or something facebook is

542
00:25:22,795 --> 00:25:24,295
three to five billion

543
00:25:24,295 --> 00:25:25,815
across their properties.

544
00:25:27,675 --> 00:25:29,455
And Nostra's like 200,000.

545
00:25:30,655 --> 00:25:32,095
Is that number growing or shrinking?

546
00:25:32,575 --> 00:25:33,435
I think it's growing.

547
00:25:33,555 --> 00:25:34,555
It's a little bit hard to measure

548
00:25:34,555 --> 00:25:35,415
in an open system.

549
00:25:35,635 --> 00:25:37,255
I think also like user numbers in general

550
00:25:37,255 --> 00:25:39,515
are like mostly lies.

551
00:25:39,695 --> 00:25:41,155
Like there's no way for us to verify

552
00:25:41,155 --> 00:25:43,075
how many Twitter X users there are.

553
00:25:43,635 --> 00:25:43,975
Period.

554
00:25:44,195 --> 00:25:45,475
Like we're just trusting their numbers.

555
00:25:45,975 --> 00:25:47,835
Everyone who's ever done a live stream on X

556
00:25:47,835 --> 00:25:49,695
knows that the number that says

557
00:25:49,695 --> 00:25:50,455
how many people watch

558
00:25:50,455 --> 00:25:51,915
is a complete fucking lie, right?

559
00:25:51,915 --> 00:25:53,115
Like, you know that for sure.

560
00:25:53,755 --> 00:25:56,655
And there's more and more bots there than ever before.

561
00:25:57,095 --> 00:25:59,255
And there was no incentive to really clean that up.

562
00:25:59,635 --> 00:26:00,595
The bots are insane.

563
00:26:00,775 --> 00:26:02,955
So follow numbers are mostly a lie already.

564
00:26:03,295 --> 00:26:04,615
They're like directionally correct.

565
00:26:04,695 --> 00:26:06,955
You can kind of compare them to each other within the same system.

566
00:26:07,035 --> 00:26:15,755
It's like, oh, if you have 100,000 followers and I have 50,000 followers and it's on the same app, then, you know, relatively 2x the amount of audience size.

567
00:26:15,755 --> 00:26:18,315
but my point is

568
00:26:18,315 --> 00:26:19,575
even with that many users

569
00:26:19,575 --> 00:26:20,655
the cool part about Noster

570
00:26:20,655 --> 00:26:21,275
is that actually

571
00:26:21,275 --> 00:26:22,735
anyone can look at the open graph

572
00:26:22,735 --> 00:26:25,035
and make their own analysis

573
00:26:25,035 --> 00:26:26,015
and in general

574
00:26:26,015 --> 00:26:26,795
that's actually I think

575
00:26:26,795 --> 00:26:27,715
hurt us because

576
00:26:27,715 --> 00:26:30,055
people estimate low

577
00:26:30,055 --> 00:26:32,035
because there's a lot of lurkers

578
00:26:32,035 --> 00:26:32,835
there's like people

579
00:26:32,835 --> 00:26:35,015
like I'll post a Noster post

580
00:26:35,015 --> 00:26:35,795
and like people that

581
00:26:35,795 --> 00:26:36,935
never use the Noster app

582
00:26:36,935 --> 00:26:37,715
see that post

583
00:26:37,715 --> 00:26:39,735
like they're not getting counted

584
00:26:39,735 --> 00:26:40,475
in those stats

585
00:26:40,475 --> 00:26:43,935
but if they had clicked the link

586
00:26:43,935 --> 00:26:44,315
in Twitter

587
00:26:44,315 --> 00:26:45,975
they'd be counted in the stats,

588
00:26:47,055 --> 00:26:48,175
even if they're not signed in.

589
00:26:48,295 --> 00:26:52,895
But anyway, my point is 200,000 people,

590
00:26:53,575 --> 00:26:55,995
if there's breaking news or something interesting

591
00:26:55,995 --> 00:26:56,915
that happens on the internet,

592
00:26:57,615 --> 00:26:59,275
it usually gets cross-posted in NOSTER

593
00:26:59,275 --> 00:27:00,455
already now in its infancy.

594
00:27:01,115 --> 00:27:02,475
And so there's like a critical mass

595
00:27:02,475 --> 00:27:05,655
where if there's enough people using NOSTER

596
00:27:05,655 --> 00:27:08,315
that anything important that happens outside of NOSTER

597
00:27:08,315 --> 00:27:11,195
gets cross-posted in NOSTER for engagement and zaps,

598
00:27:11,735 --> 00:27:13,395
and vice versa, anything interesting

599
00:27:13,395 --> 00:27:16,835
that gets posted as NOSTA gets cross-posted to X and TikTok and stuff for engagement,

600
00:27:18,395 --> 00:27:21,795
then at that point, it's already good enough to be used as your primary tool.

601
00:27:22,035 --> 00:27:23,615
And I think we're pretty close to that.

602
00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:26,275
I've just thought, this is way too late in the conversation,

603
00:27:26,375 --> 00:27:28,455
but I've got a lot of new people listening right now

604
00:27:28,455 --> 00:27:29,755
that might even not know what NOSTA is.

605
00:27:30,375 --> 00:27:31,355
I had someone the other day.

606
00:27:31,815 --> 00:27:33,735
I introduced the show with Samson Mowers,

607
00:27:33,975 --> 00:27:36,475
him coming on for the first time on the new what Bitcoin did.

608
00:27:36,775 --> 00:27:38,835
And someone going to be like, what's the old one?

609
00:27:39,155 --> 00:27:41,635
And there was a comment being like, Peter McCormack used to run it.

610
00:27:41,655 --> 00:27:42,695
And it was, who's Peter McCormack?

611
00:27:42,695 --> 00:27:43,895
Eternal September.

612
00:27:43,895 --> 00:27:44,635
Yeah, exactly.

613
00:27:44,635 --> 00:27:46,595
So do you want to actually explain what Noster is?

614
00:27:47,995 --> 00:27:56,655
So Noster, I think I kind of said it already, but Noster is an open, verifiable, permissionless protocol for identity and speech.

615
00:27:56,935 --> 00:28:02,935
You can kind of think about like if Bitcoin, what Bitcoin is for money, Noster is for speech and identity.

616
00:28:04,055 --> 00:28:09,835
Rather than having an account with like a big tech company, you have a public key, private key pair, just like Bitcoin.

617
00:28:09,835 --> 00:28:14,875
and that is your user control.

618
00:28:15,095 --> 00:28:17,935
So a company does not own that identity for you.

619
00:28:17,995 --> 00:28:19,015
They don't own your followers.

620
00:28:19,195 --> 00:28:20,035
They don't own your content.

621
00:28:21,115 --> 00:28:22,835
It has an open server system,

622
00:28:22,835 --> 00:28:23,935
so anyone can run a server.

623
00:28:25,215 --> 00:28:27,075
Anyone can hold your posts for you.

624
00:28:28,075 --> 00:28:29,595
You can run your own server.

625
00:28:30,835 --> 00:28:33,215
And it's incredibly simple,

626
00:28:33,435 --> 00:28:34,215
but as a result,

627
00:28:34,295 --> 00:28:36,055
it can be very powerful in how you use it.

628
00:28:36,655 --> 00:28:37,715
And I would just say to people

629
00:28:37,715 --> 00:28:39,515
that if that kind of thing intrigues you,

630
00:28:39,835 --> 00:28:45,135
I've been heavily focused on building out the Primal app, which you can just find in your app

631
00:28:45,135 --> 00:28:54,095
stores by searching Primal. And my fund 1031 is the largest investor in Primal, and I'm very

632
00:28:54,095 --> 00:28:57,795
focused on the day-to-day on help building that product out. It's completely open source,

633
00:28:58,635 --> 00:29:03,495
and it leverages the Nostra protocol. But the cool part there is, first of all, because it's

634
00:29:03,495 --> 00:29:09,815
open source, anyone can fork Primal and create their own version. Secondly, because it's on an

635
00:29:09,815 --> 00:29:11,755
open protocol, if

636
00:29:11,755 --> 00:29:13,335
Primal decided to be evil

637
00:29:13,335 --> 00:29:15,575
and tried to block you from accessing

638
00:29:15,575 --> 00:29:17,635
Primal or whatever, literally all you have to do is take your

639
00:29:17,635 --> 00:29:19,675
private key, copy paste into

640
00:29:19,675 --> 00:29:21,375
another Nostra app.

641
00:29:21,795 --> 00:29:22,195
There's

642
00:29:22,195 --> 00:29:25,535
dozens of Nostra apps that are stable

643
00:29:25,535 --> 00:29:27,495
at this point that you can just paste them

644
00:29:27,495 --> 00:29:29,715
into. And just think about that for a second.

645
00:29:31,995 --> 00:29:33,575
The switching costs have never

646
00:29:33,575 --> 00:29:35,675
been lower. Instead of walled gardens

647
00:29:35,675 --> 00:29:37,695
you basically, I like to say, instead of walled gardens

648
00:29:37,695 --> 00:29:38,815
what we want is open fields.

649
00:29:39,815 --> 00:29:41,655
No one wants to hang out in a walled garden.

650
00:29:41,735 --> 00:29:43,555
You want to hang out in open, beautiful fields.

651
00:29:43,615 --> 00:29:47,795
You got mountains in the skyline, and you're out in nature.

652
00:29:48,835 --> 00:29:51,355
And when you have those switching costs so low,

653
00:29:52,415 --> 00:29:56,855
it keeps the companies that interact honest with the user

654
00:29:56,855 --> 00:30:00,395
because the user ultimately has leverage and can just leave

655
00:30:00,395 --> 00:30:03,015
and doesn't lose their followers, doesn't lose their content,

656
00:30:03,295 --> 00:30:06,335
doesn't lose anything in the process.

657
00:30:06,715 --> 00:30:09,655
You can leave X and go to TikTok, but you're starting fresh.

658
00:30:09,815 --> 00:30:11,555
they're starting completely fresh.

659
00:30:11,615 --> 00:30:12,875
There's massive switching costs

660
00:30:12,875 --> 00:30:14,155
from going to YouTube to Rumble.

661
00:30:15,635 --> 00:30:16,875
And historically,

662
00:30:18,315 --> 00:30:21,375
one of the things that we're quite proud of at 1031

663
00:30:21,375 --> 00:30:26,735
is most professional investors in startups

664
00:30:26,735 --> 00:30:28,955
are pushing for the walled garden model.

665
00:30:29,055 --> 00:30:30,095
It's the easier model.

666
00:30:30,695 --> 00:30:31,635
You wall in your users,

667
00:30:31,775 --> 00:30:32,755
you add switching costs,

668
00:30:32,815 --> 00:30:33,555
you add friction,

669
00:30:34,175 --> 00:30:35,895
maybe even petition regulators

670
00:30:35,895 --> 00:30:37,975
to make regulatory moats around your businesses

671
00:30:37,975 --> 00:30:39,515
and make it even harder for people to switch.

672
00:30:39,815 --> 00:30:41,815
And then you monetize the fuck out of the users.

673
00:30:45,415 --> 00:30:49,295
Not only do we support our founders pushing for more open models,

674
00:30:49,395 --> 00:30:51,535
we actually push them in the direction of open models.

675
00:30:51,615 --> 00:30:57,375
We prefer if they move to models that are more open fields than walled gardens.

676
00:30:57,375 --> 00:31:01,435
And I think that alone, that little difference,

677
00:31:01,595 --> 00:31:03,255
which is actually massive and foundational,

678
00:31:03,535 --> 00:31:06,315
makes a way healthier experience with users and their apps.

679
00:31:06,455 --> 00:31:07,875
Because it just switches the incentives entirely.

680
00:31:08,275 --> 00:31:08,915
Completely different.

681
00:31:08,915 --> 00:31:11,015
And so, like, I'll bring it back to Bitcoin.

682
00:31:14,115 --> 00:31:18,895
Like, if you're using Moon Wallet and you don't like Moon Wallet,

683
00:31:19,095 --> 00:31:21,315
or Moon Wallet makes some changes that you don't like,

684
00:31:21,695 --> 00:31:24,515
you can literally, in one Bitcoin transaction, send to Phoenix Wallet.

685
00:31:25,315 --> 00:31:29,415
And so, all of a sudden, Moon and Phoenix need to be good to their users.

686
00:31:29,675 --> 00:31:32,855
Now, even that has more switching costs than Nostra apps.

687
00:31:33,095 --> 00:31:34,895
Like, it's literally just Control-C, Control-V.

688
00:31:35,135 --> 00:31:37,615
It's the lowest switching cost you could ever imagine.

689
00:31:37,815 --> 00:31:38,255
Yeah.

690
00:31:38,915 --> 00:31:41,015
And I think as you decrease those switching costs,

691
00:31:41,515 --> 00:31:43,375
all of a sudden you have really beautiful,

692
00:31:43,555 --> 00:31:45,555
healthy experiences start to really happen

693
00:31:45,555 --> 00:31:48,335
on our devices and the tools we rely on.

694
00:31:48,615 --> 00:31:50,115
Yeah, I don't spend enough time on Nasta.

695
00:31:50,635 --> 00:31:51,675
Yeah, you should use it more.

696
00:31:51,935 --> 00:31:52,235
I should.

697
00:31:52,355 --> 00:31:55,235
I mean, I honestly would love to just not use any social media.

698
00:31:55,235 --> 00:31:56,135
I know, but that's the problem.

699
00:31:56,395 --> 00:31:59,995
The funniest part is it's being bootstrapped

700
00:31:59,995 --> 00:32:01,895
by people that generally hate social media.

701
00:32:02,295 --> 00:32:05,835
It's kind of cool to see the vlogging craze going on.

702
00:32:05,895 --> 00:32:06,615
Is that still happening?

703
00:32:07,095 --> 00:32:08,115
Yeah, American Idol, baby.

704
00:32:08,115 --> 00:32:10,975
he's the one who started that craze

705
00:32:10,975 --> 00:32:11,735
completely organic

706
00:32:11,735 --> 00:32:15,015
if he leaned into the Bitcoin influencer thing

707
00:32:15,015 --> 00:32:16,455
he would be fucking incredible

708
00:32:16,455 --> 00:32:18,835
I mean he already kind of does

709
00:32:18,835 --> 00:32:19,735
he's like a professional

710
00:32:19,735 --> 00:32:22,395
yeah but if he did it on a broader scale

711
00:32:22,395 --> 00:32:23,655
he's like a philosopher king

712
00:32:23,655 --> 00:32:24,695
he is a philosopher king

713
00:32:24,695 --> 00:32:26,435
but he needs to be doing it on Instagram and TikTok

714
00:32:26,435 --> 00:32:29,235
most of your listeners probably don't even know

715
00:32:29,235 --> 00:32:30,315
who American Hotels is anymore

716
00:32:30,315 --> 00:32:32,015
no he's been on a few times

717
00:32:32,015 --> 00:32:33,875
okay well he's Nostra only

718
00:32:33,875 --> 00:32:36,795
do you know why he's Nostra only?

719
00:32:36,795 --> 00:32:37,935
Yeah, because he lost his password.

720
00:32:38,115 --> 00:32:38,775
He lost his phone.

721
00:32:38,915 --> 00:32:39,395
I had Twitter.

722
00:32:39,615 --> 00:32:41,435
Yeah, we came from different directions,

723
00:32:41,535 --> 00:32:43,455
but we ended up in the same position.

724
00:32:43,995 --> 00:32:45,595
I mean, look, I think people will use it.

725
00:32:46,075 --> 00:32:50,715
If you use it in addition to your other stuff, fine.

726
00:32:51,695 --> 00:32:56,495
I think ultimately it becomes the source of truth.

727
00:32:56,495 --> 00:32:58,615
You use everywhere else,

728
00:32:59,435 --> 00:33:02,355
but if someone actually wants to link back to your content,

729
00:33:02,515 --> 00:33:04,175
the best place to link them to is Noster

730
00:33:04,175 --> 00:33:05,855
because you know it's not going to have a paywall.

731
00:33:05,855 --> 00:33:07,095
It's not going to have a login wall.

732
00:33:07,935 --> 00:33:09,275
It's always verifiable.

733
00:33:09,275 --> 00:33:11,155
Like in the land of deep fakes and AI,

734
00:33:11,315 --> 00:33:12,495
like everything should be signed.

735
00:33:13,595 --> 00:33:15,595
If you watch this podcast on YouTube,

736
00:33:16,035 --> 00:33:18,135
there's no way for you to know

737
00:33:18,135 --> 00:33:20,435
if YouTube didn't change what we said.

738
00:33:21,255 --> 00:33:23,035
Like that's actually more insidious than censorship.

739
00:33:24,795 --> 00:33:26,295
Like they could just dynamically,

740
00:33:26,495 --> 00:33:28,175
and they could dynamically change

741
00:33:28,175 --> 00:33:29,375
what we say in this conversation

742
00:33:29,375 --> 00:33:30,895
depending on who is listening.

743
00:33:31,595 --> 00:33:33,955
So like 99% of people could be listening

744
00:33:33,955 --> 00:33:34,755
to this conversation

745
00:33:34,755 --> 00:33:37,735
and they would hear what we're actually talking about.

746
00:33:38,275 --> 00:33:40,475
And then maybe people that live in Kenya

747
00:33:40,475 --> 00:33:42,015
hear a slightly different take.

748
00:33:42,975 --> 00:33:43,635
That's a wild thought.

749
00:33:43,935 --> 00:33:44,735
Mills was telling me about-

750
00:33:44,735 --> 00:33:45,875
And there'd be no way for us to,

751
00:33:45,935 --> 00:33:46,635
just to be clear,

752
00:33:46,995 --> 00:33:49,275
there'd no way for you to verify if that happened or not.

753
00:33:49,595 --> 00:33:52,295
But on Noster, even with the smaller user base,

754
00:33:52,915 --> 00:33:55,235
every video is hashed and signed

755
00:33:55,235 --> 00:33:56,935
so you know that video has not been changed at all.

756
00:33:57,395 --> 00:33:58,875
This is complete tangent,

757
00:33:59,055 --> 00:34:01,095
but that reminded me of something Mills told me.

758
00:34:01,815 --> 00:34:02,975
I think it was in Riga.

759
00:34:02,975 --> 00:34:09,635
she said that there's a supermarket here in nashville that has prices that adjust depending

760
00:34:09,635 --> 00:34:14,175
on who you are well that's pretty fucked up have you heard that so like if you're on welfare you'll

761
00:34:14,175 --> 00:34:17,635
get a different price for goods i didn't hear about that but that's what they're like i mean

762
00:34:17,635 --> 00:34:22,275
people have theorized like that's what airline companies and stuff do yeah and dynamic price use

763
00:34:22,275 --> 00:34:27,635
a vpn when you're buying a ticket but that's fucking scary um that's going to become the norm

764
00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:31,975
like there's the thing that's weird about that though is data profiling but it's like what

765
00:34:31,975 --> 00:34:34,935
what is the price of a dollar at that point?

766
00:34:35,055 --> 00:34:35,295
Yeah.

767
00:34:35,735 --> 00:34:38,075
Because if a dollar is different for me than it is to you,

768
00:34:38,135 --> 00:34:41,575
then how do you have any confidence in the cost of anything?

769
00:34:41,875 --> 00:34:44,995
Well, what I've always said is one of the coolest parts about Bitcoin is

770
00:34:44,995 --> 00:34:51,235
in a post-truth world, Bitcoin is truth.

771
00:34:51,235 --> 00:34:53,695
It's the only thing that you know is real and tangible.

772
00:34:54,755 --> 00:34:57,735
It's a 24-7, 365 free market.

773
00:34:59,095 --> 00:35:00,315
Nobody can fake it.

774
00:35:00,955 --> 00:35:02,015
You know you own it.

775
00:35:02,115 --> 00:35:03,055
You know its value.

776
00:35:04,295 --> 00:35:06,235
Right now, we measure the value in dollars,

777
00:35:06,395 --> 00:35:09,115
but in the future, it will be measured in how many cows you can buy,

778
00:35:09,275 --> 00:35:10,435
how many houses you can buy,

779
00:35:11,475 --> 00:35:14,315
and just pure purchasing power.

780
00:35:14,915 --> 00:35:15,635
It's truth.

781
00:35:16,155 --> 00:35:18,315
And so something like Nostra becomes that for,

782
00:35:18,995 --> 00:35:20,695
we always say, like, fix the money, fix the world.

783
00:35:21,055 --> 00:35:22,415
The money is just one piece of it.

784
00:35:23,095 --> 00:35:24,615
We got to fix the other things too.

785
00:35:26,055 --> 00:35:27,875
And in a post-truth world,

786
00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:32,295
speech and identity is even more important on the internet and so like how are we actually

787
00:35:32,295 --> 00:35:36,555
going to verify that and i use i'd like to use video as an example because i think it's more

788
00:35:36,555 --> 00:35:45,855
um relatable to people it feels more insidious for it to be modified like people see a fake video

789
00:35:45,855 --> 00:35:49,895
but like you know how many times you see like fake screenshots of tweets and stuff oh yeah all

790
00:35:49,895 --> 00:35:53,955
the time but normally you can like this is something that ai has changed completely because

791
00:35:53,955 --> 00:35:56,975
when you used to see those you could tell like the text was a bit different or something but

792
00:35:56,975 --> 00:35:59,595
the deepfake of kind of anything

793
00:35:59,595 --> 00:36:01,655
is like a real threat

794
00:36:01,655 --> 00:36:03,675
to just knowing what the truth is.

795
00:36:03,675 --> 00:36:05,775
Exactly. So I think that part

796
00:36:05,775 --> 00:36:07,735
is what people are sleeping on. I think most people don't really

797
00:36:07,735 --> 00:36:09,135
care about the censorship-resistant part.

798
00:36:09,295 --> 00:36:11,675
I think it's the open and verifiable part

799
00:36:11,675 --> 00:36:12,895
that is the most important.

800
00:36:13,195 --> 00:36:15,495
But that can still happen on Noster, but then your

801
00:36:15,495 --> 00:36:17,655
identity, your mpub is tied to that.

802
00:36:17,755 --> 00:36:19,615
So you essentially get punished by

803
00:36:19,615 --> 00:36:20,535
your social graph.

804
00:36:21,955 --> 00:36:22,735
No, no, no. If

805
00:36:22,735 --> 00:36:25,315
you open Primal,

806
00:36:25,315 --> 00:36:29,595
and you look at what Bitcoin did that was posted there.

807
00:36:29,895 --> 00:36:30,655
You know it's come from me.

808
00:36:31,915 --> 00:36:33,915
My app is automatically in the background

809
00:36:33,915 --> 00:36:35,835
verifying that you posted it

810
00:36:35,835 --> 00:36:37,255
and no one in the middle has changed it.

811
00:36:38,055 --> 00:36:39,915
Now, maybe you don't trust the app.

812
00:36:40,575 --> 00:36:41,815
You can use a different app.

813
00:36:42,015 --> 00:36:44,355
That app will also check and make sure it's true.

814
00:36:45,555 --> 00:36:46,715
Maybe you don't trust that app.

815
00:36:46,815 --> 00:36:47,915
You can actually do it by hand.

816
00:36:48,735 --> 00:36:51,195
It's like raw Nostradite is actually very simple.

817
00:36:51,355 --> 00:36:52,515
You see a hash of the video,

818
00:36:53,135 --> 00:36:55,115
which is like the integrity of the video.

819
00:36:55,115 --> 00:36:58,595
So if there's any change to the video, the hash changes.

820
00:36:59,215 --> 00:37:02,095
So it's like a text string that you know hasn't been changed.

821
00:37:02,155 --> 00:37:04,415
And then it's signed on top of that so you know who posted it.

822
00:37:04,655 --> 00:37:14,935
So those two little pieces of basic tech in a very simple just text readout allow you to easily verify that that hasn't been changed.

823
00:37:14,935 --> 00:37:26,915
right now um i don't think elon would mess with or zuckerberg i use elon as an example a lot because

824
00:37:26,915 --> 00:37:32,595
i think most people don't trust big tech but they trust elon he's like better of the

825
00:37:32,595 --> 00:37:36,695
of the worst he probably is yeah i think he is too i think that's completely fair

826
00:37:36,695 --> 00:37:41,695
but let's use zuckerberg because he's actually like evil head honcho number one five billion

827
00:37:41,695 --> 00:37:43,595
users. The only thing that's

828
00:37:43,595 --> 00:37:45,115
stopping Facebook adoption

829
00:37:45,115 --> 00:37:47,675
is internet access and birth

830
00:37:47,675 --> 00:37:49,815
rate. They've literally saturated

831
00:37:49,815 --> 00:37:51,675
the global internet

832
00:37:51,675 --> 00:37:53,775
accessible population in the world. 5 billion

833
00:37:53,775 --> 00:37:55,935
people. We're like 8.5 billion

834
00:37:55,935 --> 00:37:57,835
people, but like 3 billion of them don't have internet.

835
00:37:58,035 --> 00:37:59,615
I've been in the middle of rural Malawi

836
00:37:59,615 --> 00:38:01,695
and people just use WhatsApp. Well, what they do

837
00:38:01,695 --> 00:38:03,675
is they give them basically like free phone

838
00:38:03,675 --> 00:38:05,855
plans that only work on Facebook services.

839
00:38:06,015 --> 00:38:07,635
Like they can only, they have unlimited data

840
00:38:07,635 --> 00:38:09,035
on WhatsApp, but nothing else.

841
00:38:09,375 --> 00:38:11,395
Because they know they need people to get it.

842
00:38:11,395 --> 00:38:13,895
Like Facebook will subsidize that just to harvest your data.

843
00:38:14,075 --> 00:38:14,255
Yeah.

844
00:38:16,115 --> 00:38:20,875
But Zuckerberg, imagine if you are a small nation state.

845
00:38:23,395 --> 00:38:25,075
Let's use Kenya as an example again.

846
00:38:25,355 --> 00:38:29,055
You're a president of Kenya, and you want to send a post out to your people.

847
00:38:29,795 --> 00:38:36,715
The status quo right now is that Zuckerberg, first of all, controls whether or not you can send it, whether or not people see it.

848
00:38:37,035 --> 00:38:39,755
And they could actually modify it in transit, and no one would know.

849
00:38:39,755 --> 00:38:40,835
and once again

850
00:38:40,835 --> 00:38:41,995
the most insidious part

851
00:38:41,995 --> 00:38:42,975
is they can modify it

852
00:38:42,975 --> 00:38:43,995
for a small subset

853
00:38:43,995 --> 00:38:45,575
a small tribe

854
00:38:45,575 --> 00:38:46,455
that is in

855
00:38:46,455 --> 00:38:47,715
one region of Kenya

856
00:38:47,715 --> 00:38:48,075
or whatever

857
00:38:48,075 --> 00:38:49,335
will see a different

858
00:38:49,335 --> 00:38:50,435
a slightly different post

859
00:38:50,435 --> 00:38:51,675
than everyone else

860
00:38:51,675 --> 00:38:53,475
and even if people

861
00:38:53,475 --> 00:38:54,255
report that

862
00:38:54,255 --> 00:38:55,395
everyone is going to be like

863
00:38:55,395 --> 00:38:56,055
is that true

864
00:38:56,055 --> 00:38:56,615
is that true

865
00:38:56,615 --> 00:38:57,075
I don't know

866
00:38:57,075 --> 00:38:57,995
I can't verify it

867
00:38:57,995 --> 00:38:58,795
I'm trying to figure out

868
00:38:58,795 --> 00:39:00,135
there's just massive confusion

869
00:39:00,135 --> 00:39:01,515
and that's going to get

870
00:39:01,515 --> 00:39:02,155
worse and worse

871
00:39:02,155 --> 00:39:03,095
it's not how

872
00:39:03,095 --> 00:39:04,075
it's not how

873
00:39:04,075 --> 00:39:05,295
like digital society

874
00:39:05,295 --> 00:39:05,935
should be built

875
00:39:05,935 --> 00:39:07,375
our lives have never

876
00:39:07,375 --> 00:39:08,115
been so digital

877
00:39:08,115 --> 00:39:13,015
and is built on this complete shoddy foundation.

878
00:39:13,495 --> 00:39:14,595
We need to fix the foundation.

879
00:39:15,815 --> 00:39:18,355
And once again, I know Bitcoin will be a part of it.

880
00:39:18,435 --> 00:39:20,095
I don't know if it'll necessarily be Nostra,

881
00:39:20,155 --> 00:39:21,355
but something like Nostra

882
00:39:21,355 --> 00:39:25,675
and the pace of improvement on Nostra

883
00:39:25,675 --> 00:39:27,355
and just the organic developer community,

884
00:39:27,455 --> 00:39:28,435
this open source community,

885
00:39:29,035 --> 00:39:31,595
it's just been absolutely massive to watch.

886
00:39:31,595 --> 00:39:34,295
I witnessed it and then I joined the fray.

887
00:39:35,035 --> 00:39:37,775
You can't manufacture that kind of excitement

888
00:39:37,775 --> 00:39:41,455
and that kind of developer attention.

889
00:39:41,815 --> 00:39:44,695
Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin?

890
00:39:45,215 --> 00:39:46,375
Well, Ledin makes that possible.

891
00:39:47,015 --> 00:39:48,995
Ledin are the global leader in Bitcoin-backed lending,

892
00:39:49,215 --> 00:39:52,075
and since 2018, they've issued over $9 billion in loans

893
00:39:52,075 --> 00:39:54,495
with a perfect record of protecting client assets.

894
00:39:55,135 --> 00:39:57,795
With Ledin, you get full custody loans with no credit checks,

895
00:39:57,955 --> 00:40:00,435
no monthly repayments, just easy access to dollars

896
00:40:00,435 --> 00:40:02,075
without selling a single sat.

897
00:40:02,815 --> 00:40:04,955
As of July 1st, Ledin is Bitcoin only,

898
00:40:05,095 --> 00:40:07,515
meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin-backed loans

899
00:40:07,515 --> 00:40:10,815
with all collateral held by Ledin directly or their funding partners.

900
00:40:11,215 --> 00:40:13,295
Your Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest.

901
00:40:13,715 --> 00:40:16,975
I recently took out a loan with Ledin and the whole process couldn't have been easier.

902
00:40:17,275 --> 00:40:19,555
It took me less than 15 minutes to go through the application

903
00:40:19,555 --> 00:40:21,995
and in just a few hours I had the dollars in my account.

904
00:40:22,215 --> 00:40:23,075
It was super smooth.

905
00:40:23,495 --> 00:40:25,815
So if you need cash but you don't want to sell Bitcoin,

906
00:40:25,815 --> 00:40:31,215
head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan.

907
00:40:31,435 --> 00:40:35,215
That's L-E-D-N dot I-O forward slash WBD.

908
00:40:35,215 --> 00:40:40,115
Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and in every bull market there's always a new wave of investors

909
00:40:40,115 --> 00:40:43,355
and with it a flood of new companies, new products and new promises.

910
00:40:43,915 --> 00:40:46,855
But if you've been around long enough you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them.

911
00:40:47,295 --> 00:40:50,095
Some cut corners, take risks with your money or just disappear.

912
00:40:50,575 --> 00:40:53,995
That's why when it comes to buying Bitcoin the only exchange I recommend is River.

913
00:40:54,415 --> 00:40:56,895
They deeply care about doing things right for their clients

914
00:40:56,895 --> 00:40:59,975
and are built to last with security and transparency at their core.

915
00:41:00,395 --> 00:41:04,475
With River you have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin is held in multi-sig cold storage

916
00:41:04,475 --> 00:41:08,055
and it's the only Bitcoin-only exchange in the US with proof of reserves.

917
00:41:08,475 --> 00:41:10,455
There really is no better place to buy Bitcoin,

918
00:41:10,795 --> 00:41:14,615
so to open an account today, head over to river.com forward slash WBD

919
00:41:14,615 --> 00:41:17,035
and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy.

920
00:41:17,495 --> 00:41:20,055
That's river.com forward slash WBD.

921
00:41:20,435 --> 00:41:23,635
What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

922
00:41:24,055 --> 00:41:26,155
Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can.

923
00:41:26,635 --> 00:41:29,735
New tax guidelines from the Big Beautiful Bill allow American miners

924
00:41:29,735 --> 00:41:33,295
to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year.

925
00:41:33,295 --> 00:41:35,415
That's right, 100% write-off.

926
00:41:35,855 --> 00:41:41,335
If you have 100k in capital gains or income, you can purchase 100k of miners and offset it entirely.

927
00:41:42,355 --> 00:41:46,875
Blockware's Mining as a Service enables you to start mining Bitcoin right now without lifting a finger.

928
00:41:47,415 --> 00:41:53,175
Blockware handles everything from securing the miners, to sourcing low-cost power, to configuring the mining pool, they do it all.

929
00:41:53,695 --> 00:41:58,495
You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season.

930
00:41:58,495 --> 00:42:03,995
Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD.

931
00:42:04,195 --> 00:42:08,095
And for every hosted miner purchased, you get one week of free hosting and electricity.

932
00:42:08,635 --> 00:42:10,335
Of course, none of this is tax advice.

933
00:42:10,555 --> 00:42:15,695
Speak with Blockware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD.

934
00:42:16,795 --> 00:42:18,715
So we should talk about Bitcoin.

935
00:42:18,815 --> 00:42:19,975
We've barely talked about Bitcoin yet.

936
00:42:19,995 --> 00:42:20,695
Let's go back to Bitcoin.

937
00:42:21,175 --> 00:42:22,775
What's your price prediction for the year?

938
00:42:23,175 --> 00:42:24,515
I don't like price predictions.

939
00:42:25,055 --> 00:42:26,735
What's your favorite Bitcoin stock?

940
00:42:26,735 --> 00:42:27,735
higher than right now.

941
00:42:28,195 --> 00:42:29,275
My favorite Bitcoin stock.

942
00:42:30,155 --> 00:42:31,655
I know what your favorite Bitcoin stock is.

943
00:42:31,655 --> 00:42:32,015
Tell me.

944
00:42:32,875 --> 00:42:33,875
Well, I think it's probably,

945
00:42:34,215 --> 00:42:36,175
is it right here on the...

946
00:42:36,175 --> 00:42:37,435
I don't do that.

947
00:42:37,775 --> 00:42:39,435
I mean, maybe by the time the show goes out.

948
00:42:39,715 --> 00:42:41,015
No, it's not.

949
00:42:41,195 --> 00:42:42,235
I do like iron there.

950
00:42:42,455 --> 00:42:43,875
Do you not put them on the screen somewhere?

951
00:42:44,215 --> 00:42:44,415
No.

952
00:42:44,595 --> 00:42:45,195
Are they right here?

953
00:42:45,435 --> 00:42:46,495
No, they're not there either.

954
00:42:48,515 --> 00:42:49,955
Just click on the description.

955
00:42:50,475 --> 00:42:51,015
Click on iron.

956
00:42:51,115 --> 00:42:51,635
Find out more.

957
00:42:52,275 --> 00:42:53,375
What do you want to talk about with Bitcoin?

958
00:42:53,715 --> 00:42:54,275
I'm pretty, look,

959
00:42:54,315 --> 00:42:55,575
I've never been more bullish on Bitcoin.

960
00:42:55,575 --> 00:42:56,575
I think...

961
00:42:56,575 --> 00:42:58,075
Are we going to have 200K by conference day?

962
00:42:58,675 --> 00:42:58,915
Finally.

963
00:42:59,095 --> 00:42:59,835
Eventually, yeah.

964
00:42:59,975 --> 00:43:01,495
Eventually, five years later.

965
00:43:04,175 --> 00:43:07,135
I kind of do want to talk about treasury companies with you.

966
00:43:07,435 --> 00:43:08,555
I know we said we wouldn't.

967
00:43:08,615 --> 00:43:09,475
Yeah, let's talk about them.

968
00:43:11,275 --> 00:43:12,415
Do you think they're good for Bitcoin?

969
00:43:13,995 --> 00:43:15,395
People buying Bitcoin is cool,

970
00:43:15,995 --> 00:43:18,295
but my fear is that there's a lot of people

971
00:43:18,295 --> 00:43:18,935
who are going to treasury.

972
00:43:18,935 --> 00:43:21,555
Literally every episode is just a treasury company episode for you now.

973
00:43:22,155 --> 00:43:24,655
It should be what Bitcoin stocks did.

974
00:43:24,655 --> 00:43:26,295
I own

975
00:43:26,295 --> 00:43:28,675
two stocks

976
00:43:28,675 --> 00:43:30,015
I've only ever owned two stocks

977
00:43:30,015 --> 00:43:31,175
what two stocks do you own?

978
00:43:32,135 --> 00:43:32,375
Iron

979
00:43:32,375 --> 00:43:35,195
I wish you didn't ask me that question

980
00:43:35,195 --> 00:43:35,975
and B-HODL

981
00:43:35,975 --> 00:43:37,775
is this financial advice?

982
00:43:38,315 --> 00:43:38,835
absolutely

983
00:43:38,835 --> 00:43:43,415
this is not financial advice

984
00:43:43,415 --> 00:43:45,515
but are they good for Bitcoin?

985
00:43:45,515 --> 00:43:47,735
it depends on what you mean by that

986
00:43:47,735 --> 00:43:48,255
I think

987
00:43:48,255 --> 00:43:51,075
as a Bitcoin holder

988
00:43:51,075 --> 00:43:53,875
if more people are buying Bitcoin

989
00:43:53,875 --> 00:43:55,415
and increases the Bitcoin purchasing price.

990
00:43:55,555 --> 00:43:57,495
It accelerates Bitcoinization.

991
00:43:58,595 --> 00:44:02,595
And it is unequivocally a net benefit for everybody

992
00:44:02,595 --> 00:44:06,255
that holds Bitcoin if the purchasing power goes up.

993
00:44:06,435 --> 00:44:10,355
There's this weird subset of Bitcoiners

994
00:44:10,355 --> 00:44:13,135
that almost fetishize being poor.

995
00:44:13,895 --> 00:44:15,315
They would rather...

996
00:44:15,315 --> 00:44:16,595
They're like, I'm not in it for the money.

997
00:44:16,675 --> 00:44:18,255
It's like, no, I'm in it for the tech and the money.

998
00:44:18,575 --> 00:44:22,235
My family relies on Bitcoin increasing in purchasing power,

999
00:44:22,235 --> 00:44:23,275
or at least not going down

1000
00:44:23,275 --> 00:44:24,035
in purchasing power.

1001
00:44:24,335 --> 00:44:24,895
Yeah, we all want to see

1002
00:44:24,895 --> 00:44:25,515
number go up.

1003
00:44:25,635 --> 00:44:27,095
Anyone that pretends they don't.

1004
00:44:27,355 --> 00:44:27,855
At the very least,

1005
00:44:27,915 --> 00:44:29,135
not down, right?

1006
00:44:29,175 --> 00:44:30,415
Like our savings are in Bitcoin.

1007
00:44:32,915 --> 00:44:34,075
So I think in that way,

1008
00:44:34,115 --> 00:44:34,495
it's a win.

1009
00:44:34,935 --> 00:44:35,775
Now, I think

1010
00:44:35,775 --> 00:44:40,115
like in a lot of ways,

1011
00:44:40,135 --> 00:44:41,195
you can make that same argument

1012
00:44:41,195 --> 00:44:41,975
for shit coins.

1013
00:44:43,815 --> 00:44:45,155
Like when EOS did their,

1014
00:44:45,275 --> 00:44:47,315
when EOS did their ICO,

1015
00:44:47,615 --> 00:44:49,615
where did they take all the proceeds?

1016
00:44:49,715 --> 00:44:50,495
They put it all in Bitcoin.

1017
00:44:50,495 --> 00:44:50,815
Yeah.

1018
00:44:50,815 --> 00:44:55,675
where when tesla's did theirs where they still like if you go onto bitcoin treasuries or whatever

1019
00:44:55,675 --> 00:45:00,755
to the private companies page like two of the largest holders in private companies that we know

1020
00:45:00,755 --> 00:45:06,615
of are shit coins and specifically the shit coin founders not the individuals that bought the shit

1021
00:45:06,615 --> 00:45:12,855
coins that went down yeah so why do i say that i say that because i think first of all it's important

1022
00:45:12,855 --> 00:45:20,155
to isolate in this current dynamic you have you really have strategy and then you have everybody

1023
00:45:20,155 --> 00:45:27,915
else 100 and then there's some nuance in there like there's there's some players that are slightly

1024
00:45:27,915 --> 00:45:31,515
larger that are trying to differentiate themselves in some ways or not but it's still very early but

1025
00:45:31,515 --> 00:45:35,675
you very much have strategy and everyone else and i think when you look at mostly the long tail

1026
00:45:39,835 --> 00:45:44,635
it's predatory on individual retail investors who are looking for

1027
00:45:44,635 --> 00:45:49,635
for get-rich-quick schemes, essentially, right?

1028
00:45:49,635 --> 00:45:52,635
Which is the same dynamic that we saw with shitcoins.

1029
00:45:52,635 --> 00:45:54,635
Totally, and the crazy thing is,

1030
00:45:54,635 --> 00:45:57,635
it's as if Bitcoin is now not volatile enough for people.

1031
00:45:57,635 --> 00:45:58,635
Correct.

1032
00:45:58,635 --> 00:46:01,635
But this is, once again, eternal September.

1033
00:46:01,635 --> 00:46:16,150
Because it was the same thing with Ethereum and Solana and all these other things And BitMEX 100X Yeah Right But people are always they come in they think they late And they leverage themselves up in some way or another to try and get it back

1034
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:17,050
They usually get wrecked.

1035
00:46:17,170 --> 00:46:18,910
They'd probably be better off staying on one stacking sets.

1036
00:46:19,210 --> 00:46:29,930
The insidious thing about this piece is, like, over the last 10 years, like, something beautiful happened on the internet.

1037
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:33,130
with Bitcoin culture.

1038
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:36,830
And I'm not going to pretend

1039
00:46:36,830 --> 00:46:38,110
that everyone was super ethical

1040
00:46:38,110 --> 00:46:40,790
and, you know,

1041
00:46:41,150 --> 00:46:44,050
that Bitcoiners were perfect or whatever,

1042
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:47,010
but, like, we had a pretty strong ethical compass

1043
00:46:47,010 --> 00:46:49,530
in a wide swath of Bitcoin culture.

1044
00:46:50,350 --> 00:46:53,110
And now, a lot of the loudest voices

1045
00:46:53,110 --> 00:46:55,510
in Bitcoin culture have gone,

1046
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:57,430
they've all been bought by,

1047
00:46:57,550 --> 00:46:58,830
they all joined treasury companies.

1048
00:46:58,830 --> 00:47:01,370
and they're effectively instead of saying

1049
00:47:01,370 --> 00:47:03,770
you should learn how to self-custody

1050
00:47:03,770 --> 00:47:05,590
Bitcoin and you should learn how to buy the real thing

1051
00:47:05,590 --> 00:47:06,930
and you should stay on stack stats

1052
00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:09,790
is like no, buy my stock

1053
00:47:09,790 --> 00:47:10,110
instead

1054
00:47:10,110 --> 00:47:13,990
and that part is painful to see

1055
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:15,690
does it hurt the Bitcoin

1056
00:47:15,690 --> 00:47:17,310
movement long term? Nope

1057
00:47:17,310 --> 00:47:19,690
does it hurt individuals

1058
00:47:19,690 --> 00:47:21,330
that are holding self-custody Bitcoin themselves?

1059
00:47:21,810 --> 00:47:23,710
Nope. Do people have a

1060
00:47:23,710 --> 00:47:25,770
right to get wrecked?

1061
00:47:26,310 --> 00:47:27,690
Yep, I'm a free market

1062
00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:32,150
maximalist, like buy whatever the hell you want. I've always said this about shit coins too. I

1063
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:36,890
think I've been relatively consistent. Shit coins are not a threat to Bitcoin. They're a threat to

1064
00:47:36,890 --> 00:47:43,970
users that choose to speculate on them and end up getting wrecked. Are there always

1065
00:47:43,970 --> 00:47:49,430
exceptions to the rule where people end up outperforming Bitcoin and it turns into a great

1066
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:56,110
financial decision for them? Yes, that's true as well. You bought the Ethereum ICO and then sold

1067
00:47:56,110 --> 00:47:57,810
for Bitcoin at the right time.

1068
00:47:58,170 --> 00:47:59,370
You did quite well for yourself.

1069
00:48:00,710 --> 00:48:02,710
I think all these things are constants.

1070
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:08,590
But I do think that at least, and maybe it's just a phase.

1071
00:48:09,410 --> 00:48:10,830
It's probably just a phase.

1072
00:48:12,070 --> 00:48:22,810
But in terms of mindshare, the treasury companies have just completely dominated this cycle.

1073
00:48:22,810 --> 00:48:30,870
um and just to once again bring it back in perspective is like spring 2017

1074
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:39,050
summer 2017 like i was literally sitting there myself i thought the ethereum ico was a scam

1075
00:48:39,050 --> 00:48:44,130
thought the all the other icos were a scam it's really hard to explain it if you weren't there

1076
00:48:44,130 --> 00:48:50,530
but i was like sitting there i was like am i the retard am i the dumbass like are there just

1077
00:48:50,530 --> 00:48:55,810
going to be a thousand different pre-mined shit coins that all outperform bitcoin and it turned

1078
00:48:55,810 --> 00:48:59,490
out i wasn't but there i would be lying if i didn't say that there was like a couple month

1079
00:48:59,490 --> 00:49:06,850
period there where i was like maybe i'm wrong um and there's a lot of similarities over this year

1080
00:49:06,850 --> 00:49:12,430
with that apart from they're not performing particularly well on the whole well recently

1081
00:49:12,430 --> 00:49:18,950
like a uh a strategy bull will be quick to remind you oh strategy returns for the last two years

1082
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:22,430
But the last year has underperformed Bitcoin.

1083
00:49:22,610 --> 00:49:24,950
But I agree with you that the strategy is almost like its own thing.

1084
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:26,790
The stuff they're doing is actually interesting.

1085
00:49:26,970 --> 00:49:28,070
I think the preferreds are interesting.

1086
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:29,130
I think they'll do pretty well.

1087
00:49:29,330 --> 00:49:30,070
I don't own any.

1088
00:49:30,170 --> 00:49:31,770
I don't plan to own any, but I still think it'll do quite well.

1089
00:49:31,770 --> 00:49:33,510
But if you bought MetaPlanet at the right time...

1090
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:34,390
Yeah, MetaPlanet's done well.

1091
00:49:34,610 --> 00:49:34,930
There's a few.

1092
00:49:35,270 --> 00:49:36,570
Yeah, it's a timing thing.

1093
00:49:36,730 --> 00:49:38,430
But I do wonder if the story's kind of ending.

1094
00:49:39,790 --> 00:49:40,350
I don't know.

1095
00:49:40,410 --> 00:49:45,790
I mean, maybe to some degree, but maybe it's also just beginning.

1096
00:49:46,410 --> 00:49:48,190
I mean, you look what's happened with NACA.

1097
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:51,490
It's been a fucking disaster for retail investors.

1098
00:49:52,070 --> 00:49:52,210
Yeah.

1099
00:49:52,690 --> 00:49:54,730
It's basically the same price it was a year ago

1100
00:49:54,730 --> 00:49:55,790
before the merger even happened.

1101
00:49:55,890 --> 00:49:56,730
It's lower, I think.

1102
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:59,030
I mean, that's pretty rough.

1103
00:49:59,350 --> 00:49:59,510
Yeah.

1104
00:50:03,830 --> 00:50:04,590
I don't know.

1105
00:50:04,690 --> 00:50:09,770
I think the trend of companies buying Bitcoin

1106
00:50:09,770 --> 00:50:11,090
and putting it on their balance sheet

1107
00:50:11,090 --> 00:50:12,930
is definitely just beginning.

1108
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:16,910
Now, I think the question becomes,

1109
00:50:16,910 --> 00:50:21,150
as someone who loves free markets

1110
00:50:21,150 --> 00:50:23,210
and believes they lead to human flourishing,

1111
00:50:24,370 --> 00:50:27,210
I think it's a question of how markets value different things.

1112
00:50:28,350 --> 00:50:32,390
And I think specifically companies

1113
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:37,050
that don't have cash flow and revenue growth

1114
00:50:37,050 --> 00:50:39,530
and real business plans,

1115
00:50:40,530 --> 00:50:43,410
and they're just relying on a debt arbitrage play

1116
00:50:43,410 --> 00:50:45,050
or hoping that their MNAV is high

1117
00:50:45,050 --> 00:50:49,330
so they can just sell stock on retail at a premium to buy Bitcoin

1118
00:50:49,330 --> 00:50:52,030
will start to be valued accordingly.

1119
00:50:52,710 --> 00:50:56,890
And over the last year or so, they've probably been valued too high.

1120
00:50:57,530 --> 00:51:01,050
And that's when you can go back and forth on whether or not

1121
00:51:01,050 --> 00:51:07,090
strategies, preferred shares is genius or a recipe for disaster.

1122
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:09,990
People swing both sides of it.

1123
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:17,730
But the thing is, there is something interesting and unique there in the market that needs to be valued accordingly.

1124
00:51:18,850 --> 00:51:21,690
And the market has no idea how to value it right now.

1125
00:51:22,890 --> 00:51:32,190
And that's, I think, also what we saw in the early days of sell converts, sell ATMs, buy Bitcoin.

1126
00:51:32,330 --> 00:51:33,370
What do I value that at?

1127
00:51:33,590 --> 00:51:36,370
And is MNAV even the correct way to think about it?

1128
00:51:36,990 --> 00:51:38,910
I don't think anyone really has that answer.

1129
00:51:38,910 --> 00:51:40,570
I mean shout out to you

1130
00:51:40,570 --> 00:51:41,070
you called

1131
00:51:41,070 --> 00:51:43,990
Sailor making a stable coin

1132
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:44,810
a long time ago

1133
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:45,730
and he's essentially done that

1134
00:51:45,730 --> 00:51:46,830
yeah with STRC

1135
00:51:46,830 --> 00:51:48,690
but I think there's two lies

1136
00:51:48,690 --> 00:51:49,850
that are told about treasury companies

1137
00:51:49,850 --> 00:51:52,650
one is the jurisdictional arbitrage

1138
00:51:52,650 --> 00:51:53,810
I don't believe that exists

1139
00:51:53,810 --> 00:51:55,730
like I think there's certain edge cases

1140
00:51:55,730 --> 00:51:56,170
where it does

1141
00:51:56,170 --> 00:51:56,890
like I think MetaPlanet

1142
00:51:56,890 --> 00:51:57,850
just Japan basically

1143
00:51:57,850 --> 00:51:58,650
is the only one

1144
00:51:58,650 --> 00:51:59,690
but like these companies

1145
00:51:59,690 --> 00:52:00,270
that are starting

1146
00:52:00,270 --> 00:52:00,710
like

1147
00:52:00,710 --> 00:52:02,550
I know we talked about B-Hodl

1148
00:52:02,550 --> 00:52:04,570
it's also like

1149
00:52:04,570 --> 00:52:06,210
the term treasury company

1150
00:52:06,210 --> 00:52:06,570
is annoying

1151
00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:08,210
because like any company

1152
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:09,370
putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet.

1153
00:52:09,390 --> 00:52:10,590
I think leverage Bitcoin equity

1154
00:52:10,590 --> 00:52:11,330
is a better term.

1155
00:52:11,490 --> 00:52:11,630
Yeah.

1156
00:52:12,090 --> 00:52:13,110
Treasury company has Linde.

1157
00:52:13,250 --> 00:52:14,050
Like we're just calling them

1158
00:52:14,050 --> 00:52:14,630
treasury companies.

1159
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:15,190
That's what they're called.

1160
00:52:15,250 --> 00:52:15,870
No one wants to call them

1161
00:52:15,870 --> 00:52:16,790
leverage Bitcoin equity.

1162
00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:18,950
And B-Hoddle isn't doing that.

1163
00:52:19,570 --> 00:52:20,970
But anyway, regardless of them.

1164
00:52:21,010 --> 00:52:21,590
We don't have to argue

1165
00:52:21,590 --> 00:52:22,590
about your treasury company.

1166
00:52:23,050 --> 00:52:24,350
They're not my treasury company.

1167
00:52:24,530 --> 00:52:26,350
I have nothing to do with them at all.

1168
00:52:27,450 --> 00:52:29,550
But like the idea of creating

1169
00:52:29,550 --> 00:52:30,550
a treasury company in the UK

1170
00:52:30,550 --> 00:52:31,250
or in Australia

1171
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:32,830
or in anywhere else in the world,

1172
00:52:33,250 --> 00:52:34,390
because that's some kind

1173
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:35,530
of jurisdictional arbitrage.

1174
00:52:35,810 --> 00:52:36,070
It's bullshit.

1175
00:52:36,090 --> 00:52:36,490
It's nonsense.

1176
00:52:36,490 --> 00:52:37,010
I think that's bullshit.

1177
00:52:37,010 --> 00:52:37,990
You can still buy strategy

1178
00:52:37,990 --> 00:52:39,070
in the UK very easily.

1179
00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:40,270
And you can definitely

1180
00:52:40,270 --> 00:52:41,190
buy Bitcoin everywhere.

1181
00:52:41,350 --> 00:52:41,870
Of course.

1182
00:52:42,250 --> 00:52:42,990
And like really,

1183
00:52:43,130 --> 00:52:43,750
what are you actually

1184
00:52:43,750 --> 00:52:44,510
gaining from it?

1185
00:52:45,130 --> 00:52:46,150
You're, you know,

1186
00:52:46,310 --> 00:52:47,170
let's say you're worth

1187
00:52:47,170 --> 00:52:48,630
a billion dollars.

1188
00:52:48,810 --> 00:52:49,530
Like, are you really

1189
00:52:49,530 --> 00:52:50,330
going to tap into

1190
00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:52,090
like these pension funds

1191
00:52:52,090 --> 00:52:53,830
and like capital markets?

1192
00:52:53,830 --> 00:52:54,530
Well, I think that's also

1193
00:52:54,530 --> 00:52:55,150
part of the lies.

1194
00:52:55,250 --> 00:52:55,870
Like they keep saying

1195
00:52:55,870 --> 00:52:57,270
like it's for institutional investors.

1196
00:52:57,430 --> 00:52:58,570
If it's for institutional investors,

1197
00:52:58,690 --> 00:53:00,230
like why are you hiring podcasters?

1198
00:53:01,070 --> 00:53:01,750
Like it's very,

1199
00:53:01,950 --> 00:53:03,190
most of them are very

1200
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:04,330
clearly retail focused.

1201
00:53:04,650 --> 00:53:05,230
Are you disappointed

1202
00:53:05,230 --> 00:53:05,870
in the podcasters

1203
00:53:05,870 --> 00:53:07,190
that have moved

1204
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:15,090
into the boards of these treasury companies and look i um who's left you guys there's not many

1205
00:53:15,090 --> 00:53:20,190
free agents left me there's very few free agents left um i guess you're on the board of fold i'm

1206
00:53:20,190 --> 00:53:25,790
not on the board of fold are you not 1031 on the board of fold jonathan's on the board um

1207
00:53:25,790 --> 00:53:32,390
i've never told anyone to buy fold stock um but i we are an investor and then before they went public

1208
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:39,210
we help them go public um look i mean we're in the business of if our founders want to do something

1209
00:53:39,210 --> 00:53:49,610
we'll help support them like it's their businesses um and i i there i do think um that they want

1210
00:53:49,610 --> 00:53:55,410
to have a strong cash flow positive bitcoin financial services business they're not trying

1211
00:53:55,410 --> 00:54:01,510
to play the same game that um the other treasury companies are trying to play and they're also

1212
00:54:01,510 --> 00:54:06,910
the market is not valuing them in that expectation they've almost never traded at a premium time now

1213
00:54:06,910 --> 00:54:15,950
um i do have some ethical concerns about spacks in general why um because like the way they do the

1214
00:54:15,950 --> 00:54:21,370
lockups they pretend it's like to protect retail but it actually usually creates a dynamic where

1215
00:54:21,370 --> 00:54:26,870
retail it's it becomes predatory for retail you end up you trade out a slight premium in the

1216
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:33,610
beginning and then it collapses almost every time uh is is how that happens and the cool thing is

1217
00:54:33,610 --> 00:54:37,490
if you have bitcoin on your balance sheet it kind of tends to make a floor to a degree i mean it can

1218
00:54:37,490 --> 00:54:42,490
go negative but uh it's better than something like a virgin galactic or something where like

1219
00:54:42,490 --> 00:54:49,070
it literally just can go all the way to zero basically um but yeah i mean once again not an

1220
00:54:49,070 --> 00:54:56,430
expert on that stuff. I'm a very, my savings are, are, are, it's like a hundred percent in Bitcoin

1221
00:54:56,430 --> 00:55:02,450
and the investments we make through 1031 into Bitcoin startups, freedom focused startups in

1222
00:55:02,450 --> 00:55:10,030
general. We have some non-Bitcoin companies in there. But anyway, yeah, this is, I think like,

1223
00:55:10,570 --> 00:55:17,630
just to bring it back for a second, am I disappointed? Maybe that's a little bit too

1224
00:55:17,630 --> 00:55:21,330
harsh like you asked if i regretted deleting my twitter i actually don't regret deleting my twitter

1225
00:55:21,330 --> 00:55:31,510
at all um what i do i have some regret for is maybe i got a little bit ahead of myself

1226
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:37,650
and i was i apologized to anyone who thought i was treating them like a dick and pompous and saying

1227
00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:41,390
like i'm better than you for deleting my twitter like if you want to use your twitter if you want

1228
00:55:41,390 --> 00:55:44,570
to use tiktok you want to use whatever use what you want i don't really fucking give a shit

1229
00:55:44,570 --> 00:55:50,070
who's who's me to judge how you live your life i i feel bad about that i was like especially i was

1230
00:55:50,070 --> 00:55:55,910
in all caps mode like i was a little bit aggressive um so like i don't want to like cast

1231
00:55:55,910 --> 00:56:00,730
broad disappointment on an industry people can live their lives and choose what they want to do

1232
00:56:00,730 --> 00:56:05,770
i think a lot of people are making mistakes though um there's a lot of reputational risk in doing it

1233
00:56:05,770 --> 00:56:12,070
yeah and i think reputation you know at the end of the day like i first of all like i'm also never

1234
00:56:12,070 --> 00:56:15,170
going to tell people that they should have children i think it's a beautiful experience

1235
00:56:15,170 --> 00:56:21,210
i think most people should consider it people should have children and and uh yeah but i never

1236
00:56:21,210 --> 00:56:25,050
want to be like the pushy parent i love it anyway at the end of the day you got to look your kids in

1237
00:56:25,050 --> 00:56:28,750
the eye 10 years you're gonna have to look your kids in the eye and tell them you know how you

1238
00:56:28,750 --> 00:56:34,090
acted and hopefully be a good example to them and i think a lot of people are not acting on that

1239
00:56:34,090 --> 00:56:34,690
first principle

1240
00:56:34,690 --> 00:56:41,690
i'm trying to think if i am

1241
00:56:41,690 --> 00:56:43,850
I think you mostly are.

1242
00:56:44,850 --> 00:56:45,330
Go on.

1243
00:56:45,410 --> 00:56:46,970
I think none of us are perfect, right?

1244
00:56:46,990 --> 00:56:49,410
Like, I think if you think you're not a hypocrite,

1245
00:56:49,870 --> 00:56:53,250
you're probably just blinded to your hypocrisy.

1246
00:56:53,490 --> 00:56:55,750
And so we should try and reduce our hypocrisy

1247
00:56:55,750 --> 00:56:57,730
as much as possible.

1248
00:56:57,730 --> 00:56:59,450
Like, I am definitely not perfect.

1249
00:57:00,510 --> 00:57:01,610
I'm not all seeing.

1250
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:03,210
People shouldn't blindly trust me.

1251
00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:05,610
But you try and be better.

1252
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:06,910
Always try and be better.

1253
00:57:07,010 --> 00:57:08,370
Always try and be less of a hypocrite.

1254
00:57:08,610 --> 00:57:09,870
If you're not trying to do that,

1255
00:57:10,210 --> 00:57:11,150
then you're failing.

1256
00:57:11,430 --> 00:57:12,390
So focus on that.

1257
00:57:12,610 --> 00:57:14,590
But then to bring it back to the Bitcoin treasury companies,

1258
00:57:15,330 --> 00:57:17,430
the example I like to use is like,

1259
00:57:18,430 --> 00:57:19,990
at some point, we're going to see

1260
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:22,390
like an immensely profitable company like Apple

1261
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:25,390
sweeping their cash flow into Bitcoin.

1262
00:57:25,490 --> 00:57:27,150
We already see it in the private sector.

1263
00:57:28,310 --> 00:57:29,430
You know, Strike is...

1264
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:29,490
Tether.

1265
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:30,870
Tether.

1266
00:57:31,050 --> 00:57:33,250
I mean, Tether is like the behemoth in the room.

1267
00:57:33,370 --> 00:57:37,390
Tether is, you know, on track to make $25 billion this year

1268
00:57:37,390 --> 00:57:38,970
and they sweep it all into Bitcoin and gold,

1269
00:57:39,070 --> 00:57:39,590
all the profits.

1270
00:57:39,710 --> 00:57:40,330
Not the reserves.

1271
00:57:40,330 --> 00:57:41,650
The reserves are held in treasuries.

1272
00:57:42,570 --> 00:57:46,770
But they have 75 people, and they just sweep it all into Bitcoin and gold.

1273
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:48,570
Strike has been profitable five quarters,

1274
00:57:48,830 --> 00:57:50,570
and they just sweep everything into Bitcoin.

1275
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:53,590
I think that's the next shift.

1276
00:57:54,050 --> 00:57:57,190
And I value those companies way higher than companies

1277
00:57:57,190 --> 00:58:02,930
that don't have a sustainable cash flow and business drive component.

1278
00:58:03,410 --> 00:58:04,190
Yeah, that seems healthy.

1279
00:58:04,430 --> 00:58:05,330
But I don't know how you—

1280
00:58:05,850 --> 00:58:09,710
I assume the trade-off that people like Apple are trying to make right now,

1281
00:58:09,710 --> 00:58:11,970
They must be aware of what Saylor's doing.

1282
00:58:12,670 --> 00:58:14,650
They must see how beneficial that spends to the company.

1283
00:58:14,650 --> 00:58:16,510
They'd be completely blind if they didn't see it, right?

1284
00:58:16,510 --> 00:58:18,750
But obviously, he did that presentation for Microsoft.

1285
00:58:19,110 --> 00:58:20,970
And they don't have to take leverage on Bitcoin,

1286
00:58:21,110 --> 00:58:23,710
but they could put a massive portion of their cash balance into Bitcoin.

1287
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:26,790
They just have huge cash balances that they're not doing anything with.

1288
00:58:26,850 --> 00:58:29,670
But the only thing I can think of, and I could be totally wrong here,

1289
00:58:29,730 --> 00:58:33,070
but is that they see that as somehow if they made that move,

1290
00:58:33,110 --> 00:58:35,730
it would be seen badly in the market and their share price would be punished.

1291
00:58:36,170 --> 00:58:38,190
Yeah. I think there's career risks still.

1292
00:58:38,190 --> 00:58:44,830
how does that change well we're already kind of seeing it so like on the 1031 side we

1293
00:58:44,830 --> 00:58:52,230
interact with like a lot of family offices it's a rich families um institutions like endowments

1294
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:58,070
college endowments and stuff and our bread and butter has been like someone works in a family

1295
00:58:58,070 --> 00:59:00,830
office or someone works in an institution and they're on the investment committee

1296
00:59:00,830 --> 00:59:06,370
and they're already bitcoiners i listen to the podcast and stuff and i know what nostr is

1297
00:59:06,370 --> 00:59:12,250
and so they see the value and they want to move into bitcoin but historically most of the people

1298
00:59:12,250 --> 00:59:15,910
you talk to they don't want to make a risky decision that might cost them their job if they

1299
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:22,770
just if they just go into um equity indexes they just go into s&p 500 indexes they hold treasuries

1300
00:59:22,770 --> 00:59:28,110
and stuff like yeah they might underperform but like they're not going to make a drastic mistake

1301
00:59:28,110 --> 00:59:31,670
that will cost them their livelihood and then they're going to have to worry how to feed their

1302
00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:35,390
family right no one wants to do that no one wants to take that risk especially in an institutional

1303
00:59:35,390 --> 00:59:41,650
environment that has flipped like it's getting to the point now where if you're not even doing like

1304
00:59:41,650 --> 00:59:45,610
a little exposure and you're an investment community you're not doing a little exposure

1305
00:59:45,610 --> 00:59:51,450
to bitcoin you might you'll have probably have career risk because you're failing your fiduciary

1306
00:59:51,450 --> 00:59:57,290
responsibility to whoever your clients are um so we're already starting to see that flip and i

1307
00:59:57,290 --> 01:00:01,650
think we're going to start to see it flip on the public side are we recording we're recording

1308
01:00:01,650 --> 01:00:07,210
you just freaked me out i think we'll start to see that flip on the public side like i think

1309
01:00:07,210 --> 01:00:13,570
um a lot of us realize that it's grossly irresponsible for apple to be holding large

1310
01:00:13,570 --> 01:00:18,590
amounts of cash right now in an inflationary environment in an environment where inflation

1311
01:00:18,590 --> 01:00:26,270
is grossly underreported and is way higher uh to quote sailors a melting ice cube they're holding

1312
01:00:26,270 --> 01:00:27,210
a melting ice cube.

1313
01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:29,330
And maybe it's not Bitcoin.

1314
01:00:29,490 --> 01:00:31,110
Maybe it's some gold.

1315
01:00:31,590 --> 01:00:32,370
You know, I don't know.

1316
01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:34,850
I think they should put it in Bitcoin.

1317
01:00:35,290 --> 01:00:37,970
The example I use for my own projects

1318
01:00:37,970 --> 01:00:41,390
is OpenSats, 501c3 charity.

1319
01:00:41,970 --> 01:00:43,230
We don't take any kind of donations.

1320
01:00:43,850 --> 01:00:45,370
I volunteer my time to do that.

1321
01:00:45,450 --> 01:00:46,550
We support open source contributors.

1322
01:00:47,630 --> 01:00:49,030
Our treasury strategy is quite simple.

1323
01:00:49,090 --> 01:00:50,430
You give us dollars, we put it in Bitcoin.

1324
01:00:51,630 --> 01:00:52,910
We're sending out a million dollars

1325
01:00:52,910 --> 01:00:53,670
worth of Bitcoin a month.

1326
01:00:54,130 --> 01:00:55,570
We obviously have no business model

1327
01:00:55,570 --> 01:00:56,870
because we're a fucking charity.

1328
01:00:58,370 --> 01:01:00,630
So, you know, we're cash flow negative, right?

1329
01:01:00,630 --> 01:01:02,270
We're just sending out a million dollars a month.

1330
01:01:03,350 --> 01:01:05,070
And the amount we have in our treasury

1331
01:01:05,070 --> 01:01:07,830
is double the amount we've ever raised.

1332
01:01:07,910 --> 01:01:08,710
This is insane.

1333
01:01:09,850 --> 01:01:10,910
Like, that's just crazy.

1334
01:01:11,050 --> 01:01:12,570
And so, like, if we were holding cash,

1335
01:01:12,770 --> 01:01:14,830
we'd probably already be out of cash.

1336
01:01:15,570 --> 01:01:17,530
We'd have to go out and raise more money.

1337
01:01:18,490 --> 01:01:20,130
And, I mean, funnily enough, though,

1338
01:01:20,130 --> 01:01:21,050
the companies that have done that

1339
01:01:21,050 --> 01:01:22,590
are the ones that are going to start doing treasury plays.

1340
01:01:23,410 --> 01:01:24,570
I mean, maybe.

1341
01:01:24,570 --> 01:01:27,070
But the question is, once again, I think...

1342
01:01:27,070 --> 01:01:28,790
OpenStats Treasury Company coming soon.

1343
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:30,670
We'll do the OpenAI model.

1344
01:01:30,850 --> 01:01:32,150
We'll just pivot to for-profit.

1345
01:01:32,830 --> 01:01:33,850
We'll pivot to for-profit.

1346
01:01:33,890 --> 01:01:35,990
We'll take a 49% investment from Microsoft.

1347
01:01:36,250 --> 01:01:37,830
Only invest in closed-source software.

1348
01:01:38,290 --> 01:01:39,750
I'll give myself 20% equity.

1349
01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:42,670
Fuck Sam Altman.

1350
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:45,550
Oh, I want to talk about Sam Altman.

1351
01:01:46,570 --> 01:01:48,750
Once again, I think...

1352
01:01:48,750 --> 01:01:50,910
Look, for better or for worse, we're calling them treasury plays,

1353
01:01:50,910 --> 01:01:52,630
but it's important to distinct...

1354
01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:54,630
You got to distinguish.

1355
01:01:54,910 --> 01:01:56,570
What Bitcoin did is a treasury company.

1356
01:01:56,570 --> 01:02:00,750
But it's not, right, it's not because now treasury companies mean leverage Bitcoin equities.

1357
01:02:00,890 --> 01:02:01,030
Yeah.

1358
01:02:01,770 --> 01:02:08,410
So what Bitcoin did is a profitable private business that saves free cash flows in Bitcoin.

1359
01:02:08,990 --> 01:02:17,030
And like, well, maybe we're going to need to come up with a better one-liner term, but it's not similar scientific or...

1360
01:02:17,790 --> 01:02:18,710
They don't exist anymore.

1361
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:21,350
I don't think the merger is actually finalized yet.

1362
01:02:21,350 --> 01:02:23,270
I don't really understand how public markets work.

1363
01:02:24,330 --> 01:02:25,650
Yeah, not financial advice.

1364
01:02:26,010 --> 01:02:27,670
I think people are waking up to that.

1365
01:02:28,170 --> 01:02:30,670
And I think the most clear sign of that

1366
01:02:30,670 --> 01:02:32,390
is the JP Morgan stuff that came out recently

1367
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:33,450
with their debasement trade.

1368
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:34,070
Yeah.

1369
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:35,630
I mean, it's not trade.

1370
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:37,190
That's the thing I think they're missing

1371
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:38,850
is that a trade assumes you're going to go back

1372
01:02:38,850 --> 01:02:39,670
to cash at some point.

1373
01:02:40,150 --> 01:02:44,270
But I do wonder if that's the kind of thing

1374
01:02:44,270 --> 01:02:45,790
that tips Apple, Microsoft,

1375
01:02:45,950 --> 01:02:47,950
those big profitable companies over the edge

1376
01:02:47,950 --> 01:02:51,070
is that like, this isn't just us niche weirdos

1377
01:02:51,070 --> 01:02:53,650
on the internet shouting about Bitcoin being a hedge against debasement.

1378
01:02:53,910 --> 01:02:55,350
It's JP Morgan saying that.

1379
01:02:55,350 --> 01:02:56,230
Yeah, like Larry Fink.

1380
01:02:56,510 --> 01:02:56,710
Yeah.

1381
01:02:56,770 --> 01:02:57,350
Like BlackRock.

1382
01:02:57,550 --> 01:03:00,090
I think their most successful ETF ever is the Bitcoin ETF.

1383
01:03:00,310 --> 01:03:00,450
Yeah.

1384
01:03:00,990 --> 01:03:02,690
I mean, by the way, just to go back to this,

1385
01:03:03,530 --> 01:03:05,250
like in a better situation,

1386
01:03:05,950 --> 01:03:07,510
OpenSats would be like sustainable

1387
01:03:07,510 --> 01:03:09,870
without me having to go out and raise donations for free.

1388
01:03:10,210 --> 01:03:11,710
Like I don't get paid to do that.

1389
01:03:11,770 --> 01:03:12,310
And it sucks.

1390
01:03:12,430 --> 01:03:14,250
It sucks constantly going out to raise money.

1391
01:03:15,630 --> 01:03:17,710
So like, I think the way this all scales,

1392
01:03:17,710 --> 01:03:24,470
I think the way freedom scales is sustainable, profitable businesses that build on top of open source software and open protocols.

1393
01:03:25,130 --> 01:03:30,910
Because anyone who's ever tried to raise for charitable causes knows it's just a forever grind.

1394
01:03:31,550 --> 01:03:32,450
Like Bitcoin helps.

1395
01:03:32,810 --> 01:03:34,330
It makes operations easier.

1396
01:03:34,610 --> 01:03:41,450
It makes our treasury increase in value rather than decrease in value over time and spreads it out more and takes less pressure off of us.

1397
01:03:41,790 --> 01:03:44,190
But it still doesn't solve the underlying problem.

1398
01:03:44,610 --> 01:03:47,350
Where at the end of the day, it's a finite amount of money.

1399
01:03:47,710 --> 01:03:50,990
And you have to just constantly look for donors to try and do it.

1400
01:03:51,650 --> 01:03:54,370
So open source, open protocols, they compound beautifully.

1401
01:03:55,430 --> 01:03:56,690
They're viral in nature.

1402
01:03:57,150 --> 01:03:58,310
They're hard to control.

1403
01:03:59,750 --> 01:04:02,390
You know, you don't have a company you can pressure or an individual you can pressure.

1404
01:04:03,030 --> 01:04:05,030
Governments have a really hard time stopping them.

1405
01:04:06,050 --> 01:04:08,270
But then at the end of the day, how do they get scaled out?

1406
01:04:08,330 --> 01:04:11,450
They get scaled out by private companies that have sustainable business models.

1407
01:04:12,550 --> 01:04:13,490
It's a flywheel.

1408
01:04:13,490 --> 01:04:19,670
and historically the way they have been is with private businesses that have predatory business

1409
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:25,590
models so but if those private businesses didn't have predatory business models then you kind of

1410
01:04:25,590 --> 01:04:28,590
get the best of both worlds you'd get the scale that you see with something like gmail

1411
01:04:28,590 --> 01:04:33,270
but you wouldn't see the predatory nature of their business model so you'd have something

1412
01:04:33,270 --> 01:04:37,550
maybe like a proton mail or something where they don't scan your email but they charge you

1413
01:04:37,550 --> 01:04:41,350
subscription fees and maybe it's a less profitable business but it's still profitable not taking

1414
01:04:41,350 --> 01:04:43,010
donations to sustain itself.

1415
01:04:43,850 --> 01:04:45,430
You know all the fights that are happening

1416
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:47,590
in Bitcoin at the moment with...

1417
01:04:47,590 --> 01:04:49,150
I mean, Treasury Company is an obvious one.

1418
01:04:49,470 --> 01:04:51,370
Not so cool stuff. I know you're

1419
01:04:51,370 --> 01:04:53,390
scared to talk about it. I'm not scared to talk about it.

1420
01:04:53,390 --> 01:04:54,970
I just talk about it all the fucking time.

1421
01:04:56,670 --> 01:04:57,510
We don't have to talk

1422
01:04:57,510 --> 01:04:58,650
about it. People just get mad.

1423
01:04:59,550 --> 01:05:00,490
People are

1424
01:05:00,490 --> 01:05:03,710
very emotional. By the time

1425
01:05:03,710 --> 01:05:05,110
this comes out... When is this coming out?

1426
01:05:06,790 --> 01:05:07,590
Wednesday next week

1427
01:05:07,590 --> 01:05:09,490
probably. Corby 30 will probably already

1428
01:05:09,490 --> 01:05:21,250
released the world is not going to end um i uh i think the discourse around it has gotten um

1429
01:05:26,130 --> 01:05:34,450
very uh negative yeah it's degraded to an insane level i think it doesn't help anybody 100 um i

1430
01:05:34,450 --> 01:05:38,950
I think ultimately, Bitcoin is a generational project.

1431
01:05:40,230 --> 01:05:46,670
I think most participants believe that Bitcoin is the best money and we need to maintain it as such.

1432
01:05:47,490 --> 01:05:53,430
I think most participants believe that we need to be very conservative with how it's developed on the protocol level.

1433
01:05:53,490 --> 01:05:56,450
Specifically, we can move a little bit faster on apps and stuff.

1434
01:05:56,450 --> 01:06:00,110
But even with apps, someone's got their life savings in your app.

1435
01:06:00,390 --> 01:06:01,310
Don't fuck it up.

1436
01:06:01,570 --> 01:06:02,810
I want to even be more explicit there.

1437
01:06:03,110 --> 01:06:04,090
It's not just most people.

1438
01:06:04,090 --> 01:06:06,410
I think core also absolutely included in that.

1439
01:06:06,850 --> 01:06:08,610
But core is also not this.

1440
01:06:09,010 --> 01:06:09,890
It's not a business.

1441
01:06:10,350 --> 01:06:14,350
And it's also not this homogenous entity.

1442
01:06:14,550 --> 01:06:15,670
It's a bunch of developers.

1443
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:18,430
Now, yes, there's a small subset of maintainers

1444
01:06:18,430 --> 01:06:20,730
and very active contributors

1445
01:06:20,730 --> 01:06:22,850
that are friendly with each other.

1446
01:06:22,850 --> 01:06:24,310
And there is an in-group there.

1447
01:06:27,010 --> 01:06:30,270
But the answer here is what I would like to see

1448
01:06:30,270 --> 01:06:33,210
is node operators have more options.

1449
01:06:34,090 --> 01:06:40,170
um this is something that we've been intimately focused on open sets open sets has funded over

1450
01:06:40,170 --> 01:06:46,970
320 open source contributors with bitcoin a very small subset of those or our core contributors

1451
01:06:47,530 --> 01:06:53,450
everyone we funded has been listed on our website we try and act you know with more transparency than

1452
01:06:53,450 --> 01:07:01,450
99 of charities in the world not just in bitcoin um and we're open to funding alternative

1453
01:07:01,450 --> 01:07:06,230
implementations give people more choice and i think that's better for core too like i think if

1454
01:07:06,230 --> 01:07:13,450
you're one of the few core maintainers like it'd be good on your soul and and stress and whatnot

1455
01:07:13,450 --> 01:07:17,550
if there was another team that was maintaining a compatible alternative

1456
01:07:17,550 --> 01:07:22,870
when you say an alternative you're not talking about not talking about a brand new implementation

1457
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:29,650
i mean look i think knots could be one of those alternatives uh if if i'm gonna get so much shit

1458
01:07:29,650 --> 01:07:36,130
like it's just so vitriolic if luke was more open to making it not just a luke project

1459
01:07:36,770 --> 01:07:42,370
like it's very much just a luke project and i will say that from the very beginning i said to luke

1460
01:07:42,370 --> 01:07:49,810
i've said this publicly for about a year now like if knots wants to add more maintainers and more

1461
01:07:49,810 --> 01:07:56,770
review they can apply to open sets um for full disclosure i think we've gotten two applications

1462
01:07:56,770 --> 01:08:02,250
in the last year and they were quite they were just not up to our standards yeah and it was not

1463
01:08:02,250 --> 01:08:07,450
because it's not some conspiracy it wasn't because of knots yeah right like i would like to see 20

1464
01:08:07,450 --> 01:08:14,550
i would like to see 100 i would like to see a whole nother implementation um i would like to

1465
01:08:14,550 --> 01:08:20,270
see libitcoin be funded we just recently we've been funding floresta which is like a utreexo based

1466
01:08:20,270 --> 01:08:23,770
implementation and they're trying to add the same

1467
01:08:23,770 --> 01:08:25,990
API bindings as Bitcoin Core

1468
01:08:25,990 --> 01:08:27,850
so if you're using Bitcoin Core

1469
01:08:27,850 --> 01:08:28,910
in your stack you can easily

1470
01:08:28,910 --> 01:08:30,630
switch to Floresta

1471
01:08:30,630 --> 01:08:34,110
I think there's this weird

1472
01:08:34,110 --> 01:08:36,010
cancel culture

1473
01:08:36,010 --> 01:08:37,890
dynamic in digital

1474
01:08:37,890 --> 01:08:38,870
society now

1475
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:41,930
where everyone wants to get everyone

1476
01:08:41,930 --> 01:08:43,070
fired they disagree with

1477
01:08:43,070 --> 01:08:46,190
and like in this situation

1478
01:08:46,190 --> 01:08:47,730
I guess I'm looked at as like the

1479
01:08:47,730 --> 01:08:49,770
manager so like the Karens on the internet

1480
01:08:49,770 --> 01:08:54,490
are like, hey, Odell, you got to fire this person or this person. Actually, most of the time,

1481
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:57,950
they don't even pick people that they want to fire. They just say, all core devs are commies.

1482
01:08:58,050 --> 01:09:01,970
Like, okay, well, all the devs we support are listed. Why don't you tell me which ones are

1483
01:09:01,970 --> 01:09:17,545
commies And then they just go silent I mean we saw this You see this with people in non circles right It like they post a picture of someone they like find him Because he says something on the internet It like a gym teacher in Idaho And then they like they get the guy fired

1484
01:09:17,945 --> 01:09:19,545
It's like a crazy dynamic.

1485
01:09:20,025 --> 01:09:20,965
That's the tricky thing though,

1486
01:09:21,025 --> 01:09:21,965
where like free speech

1487
01:09:21,965 --> 01:09:24,585
doesn't mean free speech without consequence.

1488
01:09:25,205 --> 01:09:26,405
But my point is,

1489
01:09:26,405 --> 01:09:27,885
this is not Bitcoin specific.

1490
01:09:28,585 --> 01:09:29,325
Oh, absolutely not.

1491
01:09:29,405 --> 01:09:32,725
This is a trend we've seen much broader than Bitcoin.

1492
01:09:32,985 --> 01:09:33,625
Have you seen this?

1493
01:09:33,645 --> 01:09:34,505
So this happened today.

1494
01:09:34,625 --> 01:09:35,885
I did that interview with Antoine.

1495
01:09:35,885 --> 01:09:39,705
from court and someone said, pay attention to the setting.

1496
01:09:39,845 --> 01:09:41,265
All white background, white t-shirts.

1497
01:09:41,445 --> 01:09:42,945
These guys are posing as the good guys.

1498
01:09:43,045 --> 01:09:44,525
White knights, top-notch propaganda.

1499
01:09:44,905 --> 01:09:46,165
I'm wearing a tan shirt.

1500
01:09:46,425 --> 01:09:47,405
I'm not in white either.

1501
01:09:47,505 --> 01:09:49,025
This is the evil episode.

1502
01:09:49,345 --> 01:09:51,505
But it's like people are going so far as to think

1503
01:09:51,505 --> 01:09:52,945
I'm picking the color of my t-shirt

1504
01:09:52,945 --> 01:09:54,485
to appear like I'm a good actor.

1505
01:09:54,745 --> 01:09:54,905
Yeah.

1506
01:09:55,005 --> 01:09:55,765
Like I feel like-

1507
01:09:55,765 --> 01:09:56,945
I mean, you're definitely a bad actor.

1508
01:09:57,045 --> 01:09:57,885
So we got that settled.

1509
01:09:58,005 --> 01:09:59,205
And it has nothing to do with your t-shirt.

1510
01:10:01,785 --> 01:10:02,345
Fuck you.

1511
01:10:03,845 --> 01:10:05,865
No, I mean, I think it's-

1512
01:10:05,865 --> 01:10:08,885
And look, I think it's good that people,

1513
01:10:09,065 --> 01:10:11,225
we want as many people to run nodes as possible.

1514
01:10:11,365 --> 01:10:12,965
I think that's a really good outcome of this.

1515
01:10:13,445 --> 01:10:14,965
I think a lot of people have been scared

1516
01:10:14,965 --> 01:10:16,485
out of self-custody though,

1517
01:10:16,705 --> 01:10:18,205
which is a negative outcome of this.

1518
01:10:19,425 --> 01:10:21,005
I don't think the world is falling.

1519
01:10:21,465 --> 01:10:22,285
You think people have been scared

1520
01:10:22,285 --> 01:10:23,225
out of self-custody from this?

1521
01:10:23,365 --> 01:10:24,225
Yeah, 100%.

1522
01:10:24,225 --> 01:10:26,785
I think, yeah, I mean,

1523
01:10:26,805 --> 01:10:28,005
I've had a lot of people text me like,

1524
01:10:28,345 --> 01:10:29,565
is Bitcoin about to fail?

1525
01:10:32,385 --> 01:10:34,785
Or is it going to be a problem

1526
01:10:34,785 --> 01:10:35,625
if I'm running a node

1527
01:10:35,625 --> 01:10:43,385
or from holding my own keys or like should i just hold the etf um and i think uh you know there's a

1528
01:10:43,385 --> 01:10:49,785
there's an appeal to outrage and panic and moral panic and whatnot and i it's and it's also there's

1529
01:10:49,785 --> 01:10:58,025
a conflation between individual node policy and consensus rules like if if this was a fight about

1530
01:10:59,465 --> 01:11:03,785
um like what is and what is not a valid transaction on bitcoin and it was about a

1531
01:11:03,785 --> 01:11:08,265
soft fork it'd be a little bit different depending on what the actual circumstances were and i will

1532
01:11:08,265 --> 01:11:15,305
say almost as a policy um open stats just does not fund really soft fork work or hard fork work

1533
01:11:16,185 --> 01:11:22,905
um on core like part of the part of the really frustrating thing about this is like the straw man

1534
01:11:22,905 --> 01:11:29,545
argument of like you don't care about bitcoin as money or you want to like change it it's like no

1535
01:11:29,545 --> 01:11:34,025
most people like agree on both of those things like we need to be very conservative and we

1536
01:11:34,025 --> 01:11:38,825
intimately care about bitcoin as money yeah um and it feels like a distraction tactic but anyway

1537
01:11:38,825 --> 01:11:43,305
like i feel like and then i talk about it constantly i've been very transparent about it

1538
01:11:43,305 --> 01:11:46,745
and i feel like it comes up all the time and then people are always like you never talk about it

1539
01:11:46,745 --> 01:11:50,105
it's like no i've been i've been talking about it for like a year and a half now i hear talk about

1540
01:11:50,105 --> 01:11:55,305
on every rhr yeah um so that's why i said i didn't want to talk about it it's it's something that i

1541
01:11:55,305 --> 01:11:56,325
I talk about all the time.

1542
01:11:57,065 --> 01:11:58,525
I think it is, you know,

1543
01:11:59,265 --> 01:12:01,125
it's important how people think about these things.

1544
01:12:01,485 --> 01:12:03,385
But I think the conversation has got to the point,

1545
01:12:03,965 --> 01:12:05,945
in my opinion, where it's almost,

1546
01:12:06,285 --> 01:12:08,865
like the people running NOTS feel like there's kind of

1547
01:12:08,865 --> 01:12:12,625
core of some elite that are trying to attack Bitcoin.

1548
01:12:12,845 --> 01:12:15,465
They think that, like, they think by me having a conversation

1549
01:12:15,465 --> 01:12:17,485
with Antoine, who works on Core.

1550
01:12:17,485 --> 01:12:20,405
You had a conversation with Samson, like, right before.

1551
01:12:20,405 --> 01:12:20,505
And mechanic.

1552
01:12:21,265 --> 01:12:24,305
But they somehow think that there's, like, some

1553
01:12:24,305 --> 01:12:27,465
co-option conspiracy thing going on.

1554
01:12:28,565 --> 01:12:30,485
And I think a lot of it's organic.

1555
01:12:30,605 --> 01:12:31,725
I think that some of it is not.

1556
01:12:32,365 --> 01:12:34,085
Like I post videos and I'll get a comment

1557
01:12:34,085 --> 01:12:35,485
being like run knots within a second.

1558
01:12:35,825 --> 01:12:37,165
Like some of it can't be organic,

1559
01:12:37,405 --> 01:12:38,805
but I don't know.

1560
01:12:38,845 --> 01:12:40,425
I definitely do not think like they're all bots.

1561
01:12:40,545 --> 01:12:41,265
I think there's like a lot of organic.

1562
01:12:41,265 --> 01:12:42,405
It's definitely not all bots.

1563
01:12:42,485 --> 01:12:43,785
Don't get me wrong, like 100%.

1564
01:12:43,785 --> 01:12:45,865
But I think most people involved

1565
01:12:45,865 --> 01:12:48,305
on both sides of this argument mean well.

1566
01:12:48,465 --> 01:12:48,745
Agree.

1567
01:12:48,985 --> 01:12:51,225
And a lot of them have gotten overly emotional about it

1568
01:12:51,225 --> 01:12:57,225
and have hurt their own sides in a discourse way i think there's been a lot of quote unquote

1569
01:12:57,225 --> 01:13:03,305
core supporters that acted aggressively and demeaning people that didn't understand things

1570
01:13:03,945 --> 01:13:11,625
um and and then heels were dug in and same on the opposite side yeah um and i i do think

1571
01:13:13,545 --> 01:13:20,665
like everyone is welcome to say what they want to say um the way i the way we run open sets because

1572
01:13:20,665 --> 01:13:26,265
it's not just me the whole thing is you know by design you need majority board approval for any

1573
01:13:26,265 --> 01:13:32,985
grant is was that in either direction like we're going to try our best to be immune from social

1574
01:13:32,985 --> 01:13:38,905
pressure just period that's why we're here we're like the independent funding organization for

1575
01:13:38,905 --> 01:13:45,065
open source in the world like everywhere else is relatively centralized and relatively opaque even

1576
01:13:45,065 --> 01:13:45,845
even if they mean well.

1577
01:13:46,765 --> 01:13:50,145
So that's just my promise to everybody.

1578
01:13:50,665 --> 01:13:51,665
Like that's how it's going to be.

1579
01:13:51,885 --> 01:13:55,005
So you can keep trying to get me to like cancel people or whatever.

1580
01:13:55,405 --> 01:13:57,545
And then last but not least, you can like try and cancel me.

1581
01:13:58,185 --> 01:13:59,305
Just don't really care.

1582
01:13:59,645 --> 01:14:00,825
Deleted my own Twitter account.

1583
01:14:01,465 --> 01:14:03,485
My family does not rely on podcast income.

1584
01:14:04,205 --> 01:14:05,545
I do not need more views.

1585
01:14:06,005 --> 01:14:07,545
If anything, less views would be better.

1586
01:14:10,725 --> 01:14:14,385
And I'm personally mission focused on making Bitcoin.

1587
01:14:15,065 --> 01:14:17,545
as usable as possible as freedom money

1588
01:14:17,545 --> 01:14:19,725
and as many people using it as possible.

1589
01:14:20,645 --> 01:14:23,365
That has been my mission for 10 plus years now.

1590
01:14:23,425 --> 01:14:24,665
It's going to continue to be my mission.

1591
01:14:26,365 --> 01:14:28,565
And we'll see how it plays out.

1592
01:14:28,865 --> 01:14:29,045
Yeah.

1593
01:14:29,145 --> 01:14:29,785
I mean, for me,

1594
01:14:29,845 --> 01:14:32,305
I don't mind what implementation people want to run.

1595
01:14:32,525 --> 01:14:34,225
That really matters to them.

1596
01:14:34,585 --> 01:14:35,465
But that's the worst part.

1597
01:14:37,305 --> 01:14:37,745
Ultimately,

1598
01:14:38,265 --> 01:14:40,145
that's where the discussion should have really ended.

1599
01:14:41,505 --> 01:14:42,705
And ideologically,

1600
01:14:42,865 --> 01:14:44,185
I understand the viewpoint as well.

1601
01:14:44,185 --> 01:14:47,325
When I speak to Mechanic, I get it.

1602
01:14:47,485 --> 01:14:49,185
I agree with him in a lot of ways.

1603
01:14:49,305 --> 01:14:51,925
It's just, I don't know the reality of the situation.

1604
01:14:52,065 --> 01:14:55,005
I think will be proven that Core30 is not the end of Bitcoin.

1605
01:14:55,185 --> 01:14:57,625
I really don't see that as a likelihood.

1606
01:14:58,645 --> 01:15:01,065
I think there's been a lot of uproar about a policy change

1607
01:15:01,065 --> 01:15:03,105
that I'll be proven right or wrong

1608
01:15:03,105 --> 01:15:05,885
seems inconsequential in a lot of ways.

1609
01:15:07,625 --> 01:15:11,185
I wonder, though, if this infighting

1610
01:15:11,745 --> 01:15:13,885
is almost just a symptom of us winning.

1611
01:15:14,185 --> 01:15:16,405
there's nothing else to fight about at this point.

1612
01:15:17,605 --> 01:15:20,405
I mean, I think there's plenty of other things to fight about.

1613
01:15:20,545 --> 01:15:21,685
What should we be fighting about instead?

1614
01:15:21,825 --> 01:15:23,465
I'm not going to start the next fight.

1615
01:15:24,705 --> 01:15:26,045
Go on, start the next fight.

1616
01:15:27,045 --> 01:15:30,085
No, I mean, look, I think some of it has been boredom.

1617
01:15:34,645 --> 01:15:35,405
Look, I just...

1618
01:15:36,845 --> 01:15:40,405
This would be such a drama-inducing...

1619
01:15:40,405 --> 01:15:41,045
Go on, do it.

1620
01:15:41,245 --> 01:15:41,645
No, no, no.

1621
01:15:41,645 --> 01:15:47,185
I just, I'm so sick of all the drama.

1622
01:15:47,185 --> 01:15:52,745
I, look, I mean, I think Bitcoin as freedom money is not a given.

1623
01:15:53,145 --> 01:15:55,725
Like, I think it's good that most Bitcoiners are adversarial.

1624
01:15:56,145 --> 01:15:58,665
I do think in this particular situation,

1625
01:15:58,665 --> 01:16:05,545
it seems to be a little bit of a, like, immune response disorder.

1626
01:16:06,105 --> 01:16:08,085
And, like, we're just attacking each other.

1627
01:16:08,085 --> 01:16:17,505
And I think some of it is because Bitcoiners that are more technical have become more irrelevant.

1628
01:16:18,085 --> 01:16:20,785
And I think there's a desire to be relevant in Bitcoin.

1629
01:16:21,505 --> 01:16:28,245
And I think people across the spectrum and outside of Bitcoin should just check their ego for a little bit.

1630
01:16:28,385 --> 01:16:30,825
And once again, I've never claimed to be the humble guy.

1631
01:16:31,085 --> 01:16:33,905
When I say stay humble, I'm reminding myself to stay humble.

1632
01:16:34,205 --> 01:16:36,465
But I think there's just a lot of ego involved.

1633
01:16:36,465 --> 01:16:41,085
you think there's a bit of main character syndrome going on everywhere everywhere you look it's main

1634
01:16:41,085 --> 01:16:45,685
character once again outside of bitcoin too um and i think it's a product of like modern social

1635
01:16:45,685 --> 01:16:52,465
experience like digital social media there's like a psychosis and that's why i think you know we need

1636
01:16:52,465 --> 01:16:56,505
to solve that or ideally i would like to see us solve that because i think our kids will grow up

1637
01:16:56,505 --> 01:17:01,485
in a better world because it's just been getting worse and worse like everywhere you look you see

1638
01:17:01,485 --> 01:17:06,385
it i mean like you see it with like the candace owens charlie kirk nick fuente stuff that's going

1639
01:17:06,385 --> 01:17:10,465
on right now completely outside of bitcoin they all want it to be about themselves there's always

1640
01:17:10,465 --> 01:17:15,885
something breaking um there's always this new news tidbit something you got to get in front of

1641
01:17:15,885 --> 01:17:20,585
the cameras or whatever and a lot of it is just like broken incentives all the way down

1642
01:17:20,585 --> 01:17:27,505
algorithms and engagement and addiction data surveillance all mixed into one

1643
01:17:27,505 --> 01:17:37,945
but yeah and then the last piece i would say on it is i've seen a lot of the anti-core sentiment be

1644
01:17:37,945 --> 01:17:45,505
that we're concerned about vc capture i agree with that concern high level i think that's

1645
01:17:45,505 --> 01:17:50,485
absolutely true what vc capture do you specifically the argument they use is citria

1646
01:17:50,485 --> 01:17:58,285
raised a bunch of money specifically peter thiel teal uh led that raise they want to do like

1647
01:17:58,285 --> 01:18:05,365
ethereum like stuff on bitcoin um 1031 did not invest in that uh

1648
01:18:05,365 --> 01:18:11,845
citria specifically um

1649
01:18:11,845 --> 01:18:17,425
i think even if this policy rule didn't change they were still going to proceed and they were

1650
01:18:17,425 --> 01:18:19,705
going to just do it in a worse way for Bitcoin.

1651
01:18:19,805 --> 01:18:21,445
I'm pretty sure that's what they explicitly said.

1652
01:18:21,745 --> 01:18:21,925
Yeah.

1653
01:18:24,345 --> 01:18:29,525
But just the idea of VC capture, the idea of investor capture, and it doesn't have to

1654
01:18:29,525 --> 01:18:33,225
be just VC, just rich people that are interacting with Bitcoin and want control over Bitcoin.

1655
01:18:34,065 --> 01:18:40,365
The way you solve that is by having more independent, transparent organizations that

1656
01:18:40,365 --> 01:18:44,745
are providing ethically aligned funding to developers.

1657
01:18:44,845 --> 01:18:45,985
It's not trying to defund the devs.

1658
01:18:45,985 --> 01:18:49,845
If you defund the devs, they're only going to get their funding from those people.

1659
01:18:50,325 --> 01:18:52,505
And I say this as someone who has a fund.

1660
01:18:53,085 --> 01:18:55,585
But there's also known bugs in Bitcoin that need fixing.

1661
01:18:55,885 --> 01:18:56,485
We need devs.

1662
01:18:56,965 --> 01:18:58,165
And we need maintenance.

1663
01:18:58,405 --> 01:19:00,165
And this is a generational project.

1664
01:19:01,265 --> 01:19:03,425
And we don't really have that many.

1665
01:19:03,525 --> 01:19:07,785
We have the most eyes on the code of any open source project in existence, really.

1666
01:19:07,905 --> 01:19:08,925
And it's not enough eyes.

1667
01:19:09,085 --> 01:19:10,245
It's still not enough eyes.

1668
01:19:10,285 --> 01:19:11,405
It's like 50 people working call.

1669
01:19:11,645 --> 01:19:14,585
And the alternative, and people are going to say, like, this is a straw man, blah, blah, blah.

1670
01:19:14,585 --> 01:19:20,965
It's like, OK, well, Knott's is just basically 100% funded by a single investor-funded company, which is Ocean.

1671
01:19:22,365 --> 01:19:23,845
That's the alternative you see.

1672
01:19:24,425 --> 01:19:27,365
That's what happens if you don't have a bunch of independent funding.

1673
01:19:28,345 --> 01:19:34,465
So I will just say that I think this is something that OpenSats has diagnosed very early on.

1674
01:19:34,985 --> 01:19:36,525
It's one of the reasons we exist.

1675
01:19:36,665 --> 01:19:41,385
It's one of the reasons the volunteers that contribute to their time alongside me do it.

1676
01:19:41,385 --> 01:19:48,585
um and that this is a long process and and let's not make you know overly emotional decisions

1677
01:19:48,585 --> 01:19:54,345
in the short term because we don't want to deal with drama or whatnot that will instead result in

1678
01:19:54,345 --> 01:19:59,605
negative knock-on effects in the future because there is a pipeline here you know you can't just

1679
01:19:59,605 --> 01:20:05,365
like if you if you alienate a bunch of open source contributors you can't just like immediately bring

1680
01:20:05,365 --> 01:20:10,565
them back in you know there's like years in the making and the old ones need to train the new ones

1681
01:20:10,565 --> 01:20:11,505
and you need like...

1682
01:20:11,505 --> 01:20:12,945
And they could go and earn...

1683
01:20:12,945 --> 01:20:13,305
Layover.

1684
01:20:13,685 --> 01:20:15,125
Five times as much money working at Google.

1685
01:20:15,505 --> 01:20:16,365
Or a treasury company.

1686
01:20:16,625 --> 01:20:16,865
Yeah.

1687
01:20:18,025 --> 01:20:20,485
What's your take on like BitVM stuff in general?

1688
01:20:20,705 --> 01:20:22,885
Like not specifically Citria,

1689
01:20:23,065 --> 01:20:24,985
but these kind of roll-ups,

1690
01:20:25,065 --> 01:20:26,285
layer twos that we're going to see

1691
01:20:26,285 --> 01:20:26,945
start coming to Bitcoin.

1692
01:20:27,205 --> 01:20:28,565
I think it's mostly a distraction.

1693
01:20:31,005 --> 01:20:31,565
I'd like...

1694
01:20:34,265 --> 01:20:37,265
As a Bitcoiner,

1695
01:20:37,685 --> 01:20:39,565
I haven't really seen...

1696
01:20:40,565 --> 01:20:44,545
use cases that I would like to see that don't exist,

1697
01:20:45,745 --> 01:20:47,305
that these things aim to provide.

1698
01:20:47,925 --> 01:20:50,085
For the users that do want to see some of these things,

1699
01:20:50,205 --> 01:20:52,625
I don't see why you couldn't just use a Tron or something.

1700
01:20:53,025 --> 01:20:54,305
Would you not rather just see it on Bitcoin?

1701
01:20:55,125 --> 01:20:56,885
But why? What are you trying to do on it?

1702
01:20:57,765 --> 01:21:01,365
But it feels like the argument, this isn't my argument,

1703
01:21:01,565 --> 01:21:04,045
but the argument you saw a lot was anything useful

1704
01:21:04,045 --> 01:21:05,685
that happens on Ethereum will eventually be on Bitcoin.

1705
01:21:05,985 --> 01:21:07,765
Yeah, well, let me use the argument of Tether

1706
01:21:07,765 --> 01:21:12,965
because i think tether is actually probably the most compelling argument and you don't need bitvm

1707
01:21:12,965 --> 01:21:18,245
or sit here or whatever to do that um i mean you could do it today on liquid

1708
01:21:19,845 --> 01:21:27,125
i know spark wants to do it with spark it's a the state chain from light spark

1709
01:21:27,125 --> 01:21:39,485
if you are connecting to a real world asset like tether you are intimately trusting tether

1710
01:21:39,485 --> 01:21:46,265
has the actual treasuries backing it so the underlying protocol technology that you use

1711
01:21:46,265 --> 01:21:51,405
to interact with that does not actually change the trust model for how you interact with it

1712
01:21:51,405 --> 01:21:56,125
if you're using Tron Tether and Justin Sun rugs you,

1713
01:21:57,025 --> 01:21:58,445
Paolo can just send out a tweet and be like,

1714
01:21:58,505 --> 01:22:00,605
we moved your balance to Solana and then you're on Solana.

1715
01:22:01,385 --> 01:22:02,385
Like that's all it is.

1716
01:22:02,905 --> 01:22:04,365
So why do we need that on Bitcoin?

1717
01:22:04,685 --> 01:22:05,885
And if we put it on Bitcoin,

1718
01:22:06,445 --> 01:22:08,625
if you actually want to see users,

1719
01:22:09,125 --> 01:22:11,845
it needs to be cheaper and it has to have better UX.

1720
01:22:12,545 --> 01:22:14,085
Otherwise, they're just going to keep using Tron.

1721
01:22:14,745 --> 01:22:16,425
And if it's cheaper and has better UX,

1722
01:22:16,425 --> 01:22:18,445
then it's probably also incredibly centralized.

1723
01:22:18,445 --> 01:22:20,625
so you're not actually even getting

1724
01:22:20,625 --> 01:22:22,225
a lot of the trust benefits.

1725
01:22:22,645 --> 01:22:24,025
You're not getting a lot of benefits

1726
01:22:24,025 --> 01:22:25,145
if any

1727
01:22:25,145 --> 01:22:26,805
from using it in a Bitcoin

1728
01:22:26,805 --> 01:22:27,765
quote unquote native way.

1729
01:22:27,805 --> 01:22:28,765
But I guess the other

1730
01:22:28,765 --> 01:22:29,965
like side of that is

1731
01:22:29,965 --> 01:22:31,165
let's say you're a massive fan

1732
01:22:31,165 --> 01:22:31,905
of like covenants.

1733
01:22:32,225 --> 01:22:33,105
One of these BitVMs

1734
01:22:33,105 --> 01:22:34,705
can do something that allows that

1735
01:22:34,705 --> 01:22:36,665
not without changing Bitcoin

1736
01:22:36,665 --> 01:22:38,025
you can go have unilateral exit.

1737
01:22:38,025 --> 01:22:39,205
Yeah but then I think the question is

1738
01:22:39,205 --> 01:22:40,045
like what is the trust

1739
01:22:40,045 --> 01:22:42,805
what is the trust elements there?

1740
01:22:42,905 --> 01:22:43,545
Well as long as you have

1741
01:22:43,545 --> 01:22:44,225
unilateral exit

1742
01:22:44,225 --> 01:22:45,185
like I'm not saying

1743
01:22:45,185 --> 01:22:46,085
it's definitely not as good

1744
01:22:46,085 --> 01:22:46,845
as just having Bitcoin

1745
01:22:46,845 --> 01:22:48,505
but it's quite good.

1746
01:22:48,845 --> 01:22:52,885
Look, I would say that I am personally not interested

1747
01:22:52,885 --> 01:22:55,285
in changing Bitcoin at a protocol level

1748
01:22:55,285 --> 01:22:56,845
to facilitate this type of stuff.

1749
01:22:57,625 --> 01:22:58,705
But it doesn't need to be.

1750
01:22:58,945 --> 01:23:00,105
Yeah, if it doesn't need to be,

1751
01:23:00,485 --> 01:23:01,645
then let people build it

1752
01:23:01,645 --> 01:23:03,585
and we'll see if it's useful or not.

1753
01:23:04,045 --> 01:23:05,325
We can't stop them anyway.

1754
01:23:07,345 --> 01:23:10,225
But I will say putting my funding hat on,

1755
01:23:10,845 --> 01:23:12,765
on the 1031 side specifically,

1756
01:23:13,145 --> 01:23:14,605
we don't fund that.

1757
01:23:14,605 --> 01:23:19,025
Like that's just, it's too out there on the risk curve.

1758
01:23:19,285 --> 01:23:21,325
I don't really, the business models aren't clear.

1759
01:23:22,585 --> 01:23:25,125
I think there'll be a load of shit that falls by the wayside.

1760
01:23:25,265 --> 01:23:28,605
Maybe it makes more sense on like an open source nonprofit side.

1761
01:23:30,345 --> 01:23:32,885
But I will say that we haven't really seen many compelling,

1762
01:23:33,085 --> 01:23:35,885
if any compelling applications to OpenSats on that front.

1763
01:23:36,425 --> 01:23:40,665
But I know you think that at some point mempools are going to be full and never empty.

1764
01:23:41,365 --> 01:23:42,785
I don't know if I believe that anymore.

1765
01:23:43,025 --> 01:23:43,405
Oh, really?

1766
01:23:43,405 --> 01:23:46,385
No, I think I still believe that, but it's been hard out here.

1767
01:23:46,385 --> 01:23:47,385
You were right for a long time.

1768
01:23:47,785 --> 01:23:48,445
And then I wasn't.

1769
01:23:48,725 --> 01:23:48,905
Yeah.

1770
01:23:49,485 --> 01:23:59,465
But if we did get to that point where it was really hard to get into, you know, the next block or, you know, anything really, it's, you're going to need something else.

1771
01:23:59,665 --> 01:24:00,725
And like, there's obviously...

1772
01:24:00,725 --> 01:24:13,385
But I think there's an argument that, there's an argument that in that environment, and once again, I, look, I think the only thing more scarce than our time is,

1773
01:24:13,405 --> 01:24:18,785
time and then bitcoin is our time and one of the ways i protect my time in bitcoin is

1774
01:24:18,785 --> 01:24:24,485
i try not to waste too much time on like white papers and theoretical stuff

1775
01:24:24,485 --> 01:24:28,805
until there's like actually a working product in my hand so i will admit

1776
01:24:28,805 --> 01:24:38,285
um that like i haven't spent a lot of time like diving deep exactly into like bitfm and some of

1777
01:24:38,285 --> 01:24:42,805
these other proposals on how to do this type of stuff because i want to see it and use it yeah and

1778
01:24:42,805 --> 01:24:45,785
I guess there is the risk that if they could get priced out of those transactions too.

1779
01:24:45,845 --> 01:24:48,705
But that's where I was going with this, is my basic understanding

1780
01:24:48,705 --> 01:24:53,525
is that it would get quite expensive for those setups without a soft fork.

1781
01:24:54,525 --> 01:24:59,345
The way that they're kind of hacking it in without doing a change to Bitcoin at the consensus level

1782
01:24:59,345 --> 01:25:01,645
gets quite expensive.

1783
01:25:01,945 --> 01:25:03,245
And then once again, you're better off using Tron.

1784
01:25:03,985 --> 01:25:07,625
If Tron is 100x cheaper, they're going to use Tron instead.

1785
01:25:07,825 --> 01:25:09,005
Matt O'Dell says use Tron.

1786
01:25:09,305 --> 01:25:10,265
No, I'm not saying that.

1787
01:25:10,265 --> 01:25:14,485
honestly i think people should just stay on success like once again i wonder like what the

1788
01:25:14,485 --> 01:25:19,925
use case is like i first of all i've never used tether um i understand that there's places in the

1789
01:25:19,925 --> 01:25:23,745
world that people want access to dollars they can't get access to dollars to the traditional

1790
01:25:23,745 --> 01:25:28,705
financial rails and they want to use tether if you do just understand the trust dynamic i would

1791
01:25:28,705 --> 01:25:35,265
say that the trust dynamic in like chase bank or something um it's kind of similar if anything maybe

1792
01:25:35,265 --> 01:25:40,565
chase is more likely to freeze your funds than tether is but like in terms of like defy stuff

1793
01:25:40,565 --> 01:25:46,085
and everything like i think that's completely overrated like i think if you want dollars in

1794
01:25:46,085 --> 01:25:50,625
your bank account from a loan then you pick a trusted counterparty and you like get the dollars

1795
01:25:50,625 --> 01:25:54,125
in your bank account because of course there's going to be trust relying on it and most of the

1796
01:25:54,125 --> 01:25:59,545
times when people say like oh this is like a trustless loan or whatever it's like not and it

1797
01:25:59,545 --> 01:26:04,425
just adds a bunch of complexity that you can get rugged by the complexity as well um so you're just

1798
01:26:04,425 --> 01:26:09,425
overcomplicating it when eventually you're dealing with a centralized party anyway.

1799
01:26:10,965 --> 01:26:13,585
So I question what the use cases are.

1800
01:26:14,345 --> 01:26:18,405
Is the use case like a sushi swap or something where you're trading meme coins with each

1801
01:26:18,405 --> 01:26:19,445
other natively on Bitcoin?

1802
01:26:19,625 --> 01:26:20,685
Who the fuck gives a shit?

1803
01:26:20,685 --> 01:26:21,325
Yeah, no one cares.

1804
01:26:21,325 --> 01:26:23,265
I've not heard sushi swap name in a long time.

1805
01:26:23,725 --> 01:26:26,285
So I was speaking to Luke Groman this morning.

1806
01:26:26,625 --> 01:26:26,965
Nice.

1807
01:26:27,565 --> 01:26:29,445
It was a fucking great conversation.

1808
01:26:29,625 --> 01:26:31,585
Did you ask him what kind of note he runs?

1809
01:26:31,585 --> 01:26:34,405
I don't want to speak for Luke

1810
01:26:34,405 --> 01:26:35,765
but I doubt he's running a node

1811
01:26:35,765 --> 01:26:38,485
Nor should he have to

1812
01:26:38,485 --> 01:26:39,365
I guess if he doesn't want to

1813
01:26:39,365 --> 01:26:40,785
It's his prerogative

1814
01:26:40,785 --> 01:26:44,005
But he was saying something super interesting

1815
01:26:44,005 --> 01:26:45,805
So he's been talking about this idea

1816
01:26:45,805 --> 01:26:48,285
that the Middle East is shifting away from the petrodollar

1817
01:26:48,285 --> 01:26:50,845
after Israel bombed Qatar

1818
01:26:50,845 --> 01:26:51,305
Yeah

1819
01:26:51,305 --> 01:26:54,605
And that obviously has a massive impact

1820
01:26:54,605 --> 01:26:56,545
on the US treasury market

1821
01:26:56,545 --> 01:26:57,425
Right

1822
01:26:57,425 --> 01:27:00,145
And I do wonder if Tether ends up

1823
01:27:00,145 --> 01:27:03,425
being like the geopolitical play that the US makes

1824
01:27:03,425 --> 01:27:05,285
in terms of trying to back up their debt.

1825
01:27:05,545 --> 01:27:06,545
Yeah, I mean, they already kind of are.

1826
01:27:07,085 --> 01:27:11,205
Do you think this would be the weirdest world possible?

1827
01:27:11,425 --> 01:27:12,145
We're in a simulation,

1828
01:27:12,345 --> 01:27:14,445
but could Tether end up being the reserve currency of the world?

1829
01:27:17,265 --> 01:27:18,745
Even if it's for an interim period?

1830
01:27:19,825 --> 01:27:22,905
I mean, no, probably not.

1831
01:27:23,965 --> 01:27:25,465
I mean, I don't even think Tether thinks...

1832
01:27:25,465 --> 01:27:27,005
Actions speak louder than words, right?

1833
01:27:27,005 --> 01:27:37,625
so like what is tether doing tether is uh buying treasuries to back up their stable coin their usd

1834
01:27:37,625 --> 01:27:45,425
token inherently unstable it's just going down and personally power over time um they're buying

1835
01:27:45,425 --> 01:27:51,965
treasuries to back their usd token they're taking the the interest off of that the yield off of that

1836
01:27:51,965 --> 01:27:58,365
and that's their cash flow that's their business they're providing the usd tokens to users usd

1837
01:27:58,365 --> 01:28:01,725
tokens aren't providing the users with the interest so then they're making

1838
01:28:03,325 --> 01:28:08,925
you know 20 plus billion a year it's like 70 employees just pure profit and then what are

1839
01:28:08,925 --> 01:28:14,285
they doing with it they are buying bitcoin and gold right so they're making a calculated

1840
01:28:15,085 --> 01:28:20,125
very clear investment strategy that they think that they're in basically a transitory business

1841
01:28:20,125 --> 01:28:26,765
and then ultimately we will move to either bitcoin standard or gold standard or some

1842
01:28:26,765 --> 01:28:34,245
mix of the both maybe mix of the both is most likely um so that's what they clearly i think is

1843
01:28:34,245 --> 01:28:42,565
what they think is going to happen um i think the dollar is in such a bad position that there's just

1844
01:28:42,565 --> 01:28:52,465
no way out besides just inflation and irrelevance um i think tether slows it down but it doesn't

1845
01:28:52,465 --> 01:28:55,925
really matter how many treasuries they buy like they're so far away from being able to like

1846
01:28:55,925 --> 01:29:03,385
reverse the pain um so then the question becomes like do they switch to do they release a new so

1847
01:29:03,385 --> 01:29:11,685
they have i forget what they call it but they have tether gold um which is gold back tether

1848
01:29:11,685 --> 01:29:20,925
so they switch to that um do they have like a different tether that's a basket of bitcoin

1849
01:29:20,925 --> 01:29:24,545
and gold and stuff and then that becomes the reserve currency i think all of these are just like

1850
01:29:24,545 --> 01:29:32,325
complicated like rube goldberg machines that like don't need to exist when bitcoin exists

1851
01:29:32,325 --> 01:29:39,005
and so i think what happens is um i mean like luke obviously spends more time on this type of stuff

1852
01:29:39,005 --> 01:29:46,205
than I do. But we've already watched the move away from the dollar. I would pinpoint a critical

1853
01:29:46,205 --> 01:29:51,645
inflection point was when we weaponized the financial system using sanctions against Russia

1854
01:29:51,645 --> 01:29:56,865
and their treasuries. So this trend has been accelerating. It has been happening for a while

1855
01:29:56,865 --> 01:30:05,025
and it has been accelerating. And so what I think happens is the countries in the non-U.S. sphere

1856
01:30:05,025 --> 01:30:10,685
of influence or countries that just in general are losing trust in the US.

1857
01:30:11,065 --> 01:30:11,885
Are we recording?

1858
01:30:12,885 --> 01:30:14,545
I tried to do that without you noticing.

1859
01:30:18,185 --> 01:30:21,565
We'll move to a non-US method of trade.

1860
01:30:22,905 --> 01:30:24,145
What does that look like?

1861
01:30:24,665 --> 01:30:25,665
Maybe it's gold.

1862
01:30:26,485 --> 01:30:31,785
Maybe it's some kind of BRICS currency, like just a separate reserve currency that's managed

1863
01:30:31,785 --> 01:30:32,745
by all of them together.

1864
01:30:32,945 --> 01:30:34,705
Maybe China's the main leader of it.

1865
01:30:35,025 --> 01:30:49,365
But in either situation, whether it's a multi-country fiat competitor or gold, or a mixture of both, where gold backs a multi-currency fiat competitor, it requires trust.

1866
01:30:49,365 --> 01:30:54,465
And so what I think happens is maybe they first move to something that requires trust.

1867
01:30:54,565 --> 01:30:55,905
And once again, that could be managed by Tether.

1868
01:30:56,005 --> 01:30:57,025
Maybe it's not managed by Tether.

1869
01:30:57,085 --> 01:30:57,725
It doesn't really matter.

1870
01:30:57,845 --> 01:31:00,285
That's just a footnote.

1871
01:31:01,065 --> 01:31:02,305
Something that requires trust.

1872
01:31:02,305 --> 01:31:07,585
and then trust breaks down and then bitcoin stands as the only way to interchange globally

1873
01:31:07,585 --> 01:31:15,765
without trust right like can can can long term china and russia trust each other can china and

1874
01:31:15,765 --> 01:31:20,525
brazil trust each other like no i don't think so can india and china trust each other i don't think

1875
01:31:20,525 --> 01:31:24,905
so and even if they're settling in gold that requires a lot of trust because you're basically

1876
01:31:24,905 --> 01:31:29,225
like if you want to settle physically you're just flying fucking planes of gold everywhere

1877
01:31:29,225 --> 01:31:32,565
Bitcoin is strictly superior to that.

1878
01:31:33,205 --> 01:31:46,445
So I think in a world where the US currency continues to erode in faith, value, people are going to look for an option that doesn't require trust.

1879
01:31:47,205 --> 01:31:48,285
And that option is Bitcoin.

1880
01:31:48,285 --> 01:31:57,505
And so there might be a transitory period where we move to something in between, but I don't think it'll be very long just because Bitcoin exists.

1881
01:31:57,505 --> 01:31:58,485
if Bitcoin didn't exist

1882
01:31:58,485 --> 01:31:59,605
maybe it would be longer

1883
01:31:59,605 --> 01:32:00,185
it's funny

1884
01:32:00,185 --> 01:32:01,165
you love the mandibles

1885
01:32:01,165 --> 01:32:02,145
American Harder Lawyers

1886
01:32:02,145 --> 01:32:02,945
I was just really

1887
01:32:02,945 --> 01:32:03,685
protecting myself

1888
01:32:03,685 --> 01:32:05,245
are you trying to say it

1889
01:32:05,245 --> 01:32:06,685
no I was trying not to say it

1890
01:32:06,685 --> 01:32:07,525
Harder Lawyers

1891
01:32:07,525 --> 01:32:08,085
reminds me that

1892
01:32:08,085 --> 01:32:08,645
he's the person

1893
01:32:08,645 --> 01:32:09,565
that told you about mandibles

1894
01:32:09,565 --> 01:32:11,145
yeah on my show

1895
01:32:11,145 --> 01:32:12,345
on Robert O'Rica

1896
01:32:12,345 --> 01:32:12,945
how was it

1897
01:32:12,945 --> 01:32:14,225
it was on TFTC

1898
01:32:14,225 --> 01:32:14,885
but yeah it was me

1899
01:32:14,885 --> 01:32:15,405
him and Marty

1900
01:32:15,451 --> 01:32:19,771
It was like three hours into a very drunk episode.

1901
01:32:19,891 --> 01:32:22,091
I actually listened to that episode back probably like a year ago.

1902
01:32:22,171 --> 01:32:22,691
It was a good one.

1903
01:32:23,511 --> 01:32:24,711
But in that...

1904
01:32:24,711 --> 01:32:26,531
And Alex Gladstein recommended it to me too.

1905
01:32:26,811 --> 01:32:30,731
To be fair, Hoddle recommended it first and then Alex recommended it second.

1906
01:32:30,831 --> 01:32:33,151
I was like, okay, if they both recommend it, I should read it.

1907
01:32:33,211 --> 01:32:34,811
And now you've become the Mandibles Influencer.

1908
01:32:35,711 --> 01:32:39,871
I mean, look, I think it's not like the best book, but it's an easy read.

1909
01:32:39,871 --> 01:32:46,171
and i do think the u.s is going through an increasingly inflationary environment it's

1910
01:32:46,171 --> 01:32:50,751
pretty obvious if you have eyes um and she just kind of spells it out for you and it and then

1911
01:32:50,751 --> 01:32:56,151
after that but i think it it won't be as bad as what's in the book um because people will have the

1912
01:32:56,151 --> 01:33:01,911
option for bitcoin like what people don't realize is when argentina goes through hyperinflation

1913
01:33:01,911 --> 01:33:09,011
it's really bad for the people but the fact that they can escape to the dollar makes it less bad

1914
01:33:09,011 --> 01:33:11,471
in a world without Bitcoin

1915
01:33:11,471 --> 01:33:12,831
if the US went through

1916
01:33:12,831 --> 01:33:13,991
an inflationary period

1917
01:33:13,991 --> 01:33:15,111
hyperinflation

1918
01:33:15,111 --> 01:33:17,291
and they didn't have

1919
01:33:17,291 --> 01:33:18,011
anywhere to escape to

1920
01:33:18,011 --> 01:33:19,151
it'd be really really bad

1921
01:33:19,151 --> 01:33:20,511
but if you have Bitcoin

1922
01:33:20,511 --> 01:33:21,211
to escape to

1923
01:33:21,211 --> 01:33:22,131
it'd still be bad

1924
01:33:22,131 --> 01:33:24,551
but it lessens the pain

1925
01:33:24,551 --> 01:33:25,851
and it gives you a path forward

1926
01:33:25,851 --> 01:33:26,791
but in that book

1927
01:33:26,791 --> 01:33:27,891
a stable way to move forward

1928
01:33:27,891 --> 01:33:28,551
in that book

1929
01:33:28,551 --> 01:33:29,771
it's basically about the US

1930
01:33:29,771 --> 01:33:30,731
going through hyperinflation

1931
01:33:30,731 --> 01:33:32,131
and they have a bank or

1932
01:33:32,131 --> 01:33:33,431
which is essentially bricks

1933
01:33:33,431 --> 01:33:33,931
yeah

1934
01:33:33,931 --> 01:33:36,751
and Bitcoin fails in the book

1935
01:33:36,751 --> 01:33:37,231
yeah

1936
01:33:37,231 --> 01:33:39,591
at the end of the book,

1937
01:33:39,931 --> 01:33:40,611
spoiler alert,

1938
01:33:40,711 --> 01:33:41,351
turn this off now

1939
01:33:41,351 --> 01:33:41,931
if you've not read it.

1940
01:33:42,151 --> 01:33:43,011
You should go and read it.

1941
01:33:43,191 --> 01:33:44,771
But the last page

1942
01:33:44,771 --> 01:33:45,911
is basically saying

1943
01:33:45,911 --> 01:33:47,931
and then the increased tax

1944
01:33:47,931 --> 01:33:49,091
and everything kind of

1945
01:33:49,091 --> 01:33:49,691
started again.

1946
01:33:50,111 --> 01:33:50,631
Do you think

1947
01:33:50,631 --> 01:33:51,671
if we do go through

1948
01:33:51,671 --> 01:33:53,091
something Mandibles-esque

1949
01:33:53,091 --> 01:33:56,171
that Bitcoin surviving

1950
01:33:56,171 --> 01:33:57,211
and thriving in that

1951
01:33:57,211 --> 01:33:58,691
can change the story?

1952
01:33:59,351 --> 01:33:59,951
Yeah, 100%.

1953
01:33:59,951 --> 01:34:00,731
I think, I mean,

1954
01:34:00,791 --> 01:34:01,611
I would implore people

1955
01:34:01,611 --> 01:34:02,311
to read the book

1956
01:34:02,311 --> 01:34:03,651
and then they should go

1957
01:34:03,651 --> 01:34:04,211
listen to my

1958
01:34:04,211 --> 01:34:04,991
Still Dispatch

1959
01:34:04,991 --> 01:34:05,971
with Lionel Shriver

1960
01:34:05,971 --> 01:34:12,311
uh the author um where we talk about this stuff and i was like very soft touch on bitcoin with

1961
01:34:12,311 --> 01:34:20,131
her it was like only at the end um but first of all she deserves some leniency because when was

1962
01:34:20,131 --> 01:34:26,431
the one of the book come out you're the mandibles influencer i think the book came out um i'm on

1963
01:34:26,431 --> 01:34:32,271
airplane mode i'm gonna say the book came out in like 2015 so she was writing it in like 2013 or

1964
01:34:32,271 --> 01:34:42,531
something um so like i mean if you're a casual observer like it's almost logical to assume that

1965
01:34:42,531 --> 01:34:48,191
bitcoin was going to fail at that point um did you look it up 2016 it came out yeah so she was

1966
01:34:48,191 --> 01:34:56,271
like writing in 2014 2015 2015 we fell from we were in high of a thousand in 2013 we fell all

1967
01:34:56,271 --> 01:35:01,071
the way to like 150 ish in 2015 if you're a casual observer like of course bitcoin's dead by like

1968
01:35:01,071 --> 01:35:08,631
whenever the book's set in like 2032 or 2035 or whatever um so like i don't falter for that and

1969
01:35:08,631 --> 01:35:14,271
actually it's kind of cool that she even was aware of it enough to like just it was in passing she's

1970
01:35:14,271 --> 01:35:19,931
like oh bitcoin failed um but yes i do think bitcoin changes that dynamic like she had first

1971
01:35:19,931 --> 01:35:25,131
of all in it she has gold confiscation which i think will likely happen in this type of situation

1972
01:35:25,131 --> 01:35:29,171
much harder to confiscate bitcoin bitcoin confiscation will probably also happen but

1973
01:35:29,171 --> 01:35:33,411
it's just much more difficult to confiscate bitcoin period strictly better than gold in

1974
01:35:33,411 --> 01:35:37,891
that situation you want to cross the border with gold what are you going to do it's very very

1975
01:35:37,891 --> 01:35:46,691
difficult bitcoin's super easy um so so bitcoin provides this base this escape that people have

1976
01:35:47,571 --> 01:35:54,291
second of all it uh really uh increases the potency of jurisdictional arbitrage and competition

1977
01:35:54,291 --> 01:36:01,971
because states that are less predatory to their residents will naturally encourage more

1978
01:36:01,971 --> 01:36:13,851
Bitcoin wealth to move into them. And I think in that type of failure mode, right? Like I think

1979
01:36:13,851 --> 01:36:20,171
the fiat currency experiment is actually quite young in the course of human history. And yes,

1980
01:36:20,171 --> 01:36:24,651
like if you don't think something like bitcoin will succeed then we probably will just repeat

1981
01:36:24,651 --> 01:36:37,654
another fiat cycle or maybe we switch to gold you know um but then gold has its own issues which results in us going back to fiat eventually but with Bitcoin there a different path Will there be taxes Yeah of course there probably still be taxes

1982
01:36:40,114 --> 01:36:47,234
But I think in a world where people have more agency and control over their own money,

1983
01:36:47,974 --> 01:36:55,374
that relationship between governments and taxation and whatnot will be ideally less predatory

1984
01:36:55,374 --> 01:36:56,574
because it'll be more competitive.

1985
01:36:56,574 --> 01:37:02,154
And the last thing I would add is the mandibles is mostly focused on New York.

1986
01:37:03,974 --> 01:37:17,874
I think in general, like in a societal degradation collapse type of scenario, a hyperinflation type of scenario, a scenario where trust and institutions break down, like dense population centers are just going to strictly do worse wherever you are.

1987
01:37:19,254 --> 01:37:22,134
So it's important to realize that that's from where the lens is.

1988
01:37:22,134 --> 01:37:24,754
and we have no idea

1989
01:37:24,754 --> 01:37:26,154
like in that scenario

1990
01:37:26,154 --> 01:37:27,314
like what's going on

1991
01:37:27,314 --> 01:37:28,954
in like Tennessee

1992
01:37:28,954 --> 01:37:29,614
for instance

1993
01:37:29,614 --> 01:37:31,334
or the American West.

1994
01:37:32,334 --> 01:37:34,714
When I was at your place

1995
01:37:34,714 --> 01:37:35,634
earlier this year

1996
01:37:35,634 --> 01:37:37,234
one of the things

1997
01:37:37,234 --> 01:37:37,954
we were talking about

1998
01:37:37,954 --> 01:37:38,654
before we did the show

1999
01:37:38,654 --> 01:37:39,954
was the idea that

2000
01:37:39,954 --> 01:37:42,014
what if we're wrong

2001
01:37:42,014 --> 01:37:42,834
and what if gold

2002
01:37:42,834 --> 01:37:43,594
was always the play?

2003
01:37:44,314 --> 01:37:44,434
Yeah.

2004
01:37:44,934 --> 01:37:46,014
Do you think that's likely?

2005
01:37:46,014 --> 01:37:52,414
non-zero chance

2006
01:37:52,414 --> 01:37:53,874
probably

2007
01:37:53,874 --> 01:37:55,754
I mean I don't

2008
01:37:55,754 --> 01:37:56,854
I own some gold jewelry

2009
01:37:56,854 --> 01:37:58,314
you're wearing it

2010
01:37:58,314 --> 01:37:59,814
yeah this is

2011
01:37:59,814 --> 01:38:00,914
madex.art

2012
01:38:00,914 --> 01:38:02,274
if you want to pick up

2013
01:38:02,274 --> 01:38:04,434
there's an end nav on madex stuff

2014
01:38:04,434 --> 01:38:06,274
dope bitcoiner jewelry

2015
01:38:06,274 --> 01:38:08,274
probably will not outperform bitcoin

2016
01:38:08,274 --> 01:38:09,114
but it's cool

2017
01:38:09,114 --> 01:38:12,694
yeah I mean like gold has been ripping

2018
01:38:12,694 --> 01:38:16,534
I think there's two ways to look at it.

2019
01:38:16,754 --> 01:38:19,574
First of all, gold is Lindy.

2020
01:38:22,834 --> 01:38:26,554
The market buying gold is showing that there's obviously demand

2021
01:38:26,554 --> 01:38:32,674
for an independent store of value asset that is not sovereign controlled,

2022
01:38:33,594 --> 01:38:34,914
which is like the Bitcoin value prop, right?

2023
01:38:34,934 --> 01:38:35,414
Digital gold.

2024
01:38:36,094 --> 01:38:39,854
Like one of the most well-known Bitcoin value props.

2025
01:38:40,714 --> 01:38:42,614
So as a Bitcoiner, that's a good sign.

2026
01:38:42,694 --> 01:38:50,414
directionally correct. The other piece is like market cap wise, it's pretty crazy how much,

2027
01:38:50,414 --> 01:38:56,334
how big of a move it was. It's having like one Bitcoin market cap every week at the moment.

2028
01:38:56,434 --> 01:39:03,334
Yeah, exactly. So like people that think like Bitcoin can't go from like 120K to like 250K in

2029
01:39:03,334 --> 01:39:11,334
a matter of a week or so are like just objectively wrong based on that gold depreciation. But yeah,

2030
01:39:11,334 --> 01:39:13,614
I mean, look, I'm humble enough to not rule that out.

2031
01:39:14,114 --> 01:39:14,474
Who knows?

2032
01:39:14,874 --> 01:39:17,074
Obviously, actions speak louder than words.

2033
01:39:17,674 --> 01:39:19,594
If I thought that was the most likely case,

2034
01:39:19,614 --> 01:39:20,994
I would just sell all my Bitcoin for gold.

2035
01:39:22,234 --> 01:39:23,034
Haven't done that.

2036
01:39:26,654 --> 01:39:29,274
But yeah, that also wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

2037
01:39:30,794 --> 01:39:31,894
Financially, it would suck,

2038
01:39:32,794 --> 01:39:34,594
but especially in the short and medium term.

2039
01:39:35,094 --> 01:39:37,074
Second of all, I don't know how employable I would be.

2040
01:39:37,974 --> 01:39:39,274
You can't be a gold influencer.

2041
01:39:39,854 --> 01:39:41,274
I'd have to work on a construction crew.

2042
01:39:41,334 --> 01:39:47,414
something um because my entire career professional career has been bitcoin focused

2043
01:39:48,534 --> 01:39:52,854
so that would be embarrassing but we'd make it work but like it wouldn't be the it's a it's a

2044
01:39:52,854 --> 01:39:57,894
world on the gold standard is way better than a world on a fiat standard 100 just like strictly

2045
01:39:57,894 --> 01:40:01,734
for my kids but i think bitcoin is superior in every way and i think the market will figure out

2046
01:40:01,734 --> 01:40:09,254
eventually that's just one of those um i call it like my like 2 a.m you're like drinking with a

2047
01:40:09,254 --> 01:40:11,094
a Bitcoin buddy at 2 a.m. and you just...

2048
01:40:11,094 --> 01:40:11,794
What if I'm wrong?

2049
01:40:11,854 --> 01:40:12,634
Yeah, what if we're wrong?

2050
01:40:12,754 --> 01:40:13,414
What if it's gold?

2051
01:40:14,274 --> 01:40:16,434
It's like you're directionally correct, but wrong.

2052
01:40:17,454 --> 01:40:19,254
But I think that'll probably be the other way.

2053
01:40:19,414 --> 01:40:20,634
Although I think gold people will be fine.

2054
01:40:20,834 --> 01:40:22,594
I think there's a world where just hard money

2055
01:40:22,594 --> 01:40:24,014
as a whole wins out.

2056
01:40:24,954 --> 01:40:27,174
Yeah, I mean, I think the gold devaluation

2057
01:40:27,174 --> 01:40:29,254
into Bitcoin is slower.

2058
01:40:29,714 --> 01:40:29,974
Yeah.

2059
01:40:32,674 --> 01:40:34,474
Like gold isn't going to be like removed

2060
01:40:34,474 --> 01:40:35,694
from society overnight.

2061
01:40:36,874 --> 01:40:37,914
There's always...

2062
01:40:37,914 --> 01:40:43,674
there's a there's a value there and just the fact that's thousands of years old as a monetary asset

2063
01:40:43,674 --> 01:41:00,576
I am I do the conversation that I been thinking about a lot lately is I guess just to flip the script is top user adoption of Bitcoin

2064
01:41:05,616 --> 01:41:07,936
It kind of feels like it's stalled a little bit,

2065
01:41:08,036 --> 01:41:09,676
like of real Bitcoin.

2066
01:41:12,376 --> 01:41:15,196
And I mean, I don't even know what the question is.

2067
01:41:15,416 --> 01:41:16,876
What do you mean top-level adoption, though?

2068
01:41:16,876 --> 01:41:19,276
Is that people buying Bitcoin or people using Bitcoin?

2069
01:41:21,436 --> 01:41:30,716
How many people do you think own 10 million sats worth of Bitcoin in self-custody?

2070
01:41:30,916 --> 01:41:32,956
So that's $12,000.

2071
01:41:35,416 --> 01:41:38,376
I've thought about this from like how many people own one Bitcoin.

2072
01:41:39,036 --> 01:41:40,296
That number is really low.

2073
01:41:40,436 --> 01:41:40,736
Yeah.

2074
01:41:41,296 --> 01:41:42,516
That's a tiny fucking number.

2075
01:41:42,556 --> 01:41:43,976
I would get, so this is where.

2076
01:41:43,976 --> 01:41:45,676
This is a more important number than,

2077
01:41:46,316 --> 01:41:48,556
like Bitcoin is not just for people

2078
01:41:48,556 --> 01:41:50,856
that have more than $120,000 in savings.

2079
01:41:51,076 --> 01:41:52,536
Like you can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin.

2080
01:41:52,536 --> 01:41:54,596
You'll all have more than $120,000 in savings

2081
01:41:54,596 --> 01:41:55,436
if you wait long enough.

2082
01:41:56,016 --> 01:41:56,636
I don't know.

2083
01:41:56,776 --> 01:41:58,116
I think this is where,

2084
01:41:58,276 --> 01:41:59,636
I love the stuff that Troy Cross does

2085
01:41:59,636 --> 01:42:00,616
in terms of those surveys.

2086
01:42:00,756 --> 01:42:01,716
I think it's interesting.

2087
01:42:01,976 --> 01:42:04,136
I think Ella Huff's done some cool stuff with Cornell

2088
01:42:04,136 --> 01:42:05,676
in terms of like collecting data.

2089
01:42:05,676 --> 01:42:06,976
That was a cool episode you guys did.

2090
01:42:07,236 --> 01:42:09,036
But I think this is the area

2091
01:42:09,036 --> 01:42:10,676
where the numbers are just way off.

2092
01:42:10,956 --> 01:42:11,956
I think it's way lower.

2093
01:42:12,136 --> 01:42:13,156
It's way lower.

2094
01:42:13,156 --> 01:42:16,196
So I was actually talking to Checkmate about this privately, not on the show.

2095
01:42:17,816 --> 01:42:23,956
So he has like a chart I'll put up on the screen of people who, not right now, on the video.

2096
01:42:25,316 --> 01:42:31,456
Of people who own more than, I think it's maybe point, maybe it's 10 million.

2097
01:42:31,616 --> 01:42:32,676
Is it addresses or?

2098
01:42:32,796 --> 01:42:33,336
Addresses, yeah.

2099
01:42:33,416 --> 01:42:35,056
So this is where it gets really hard.

2100
01:42:35,156 --> 01:42:36,316
And I think it's like more than one address.

2101
01:42:36,396 --> 01:42:39,476
There's like 25 million addresses that hold more than that.

2102
01:42:39,616 --> 01:42:41,336
And so if you had to try and.

2103
01:42:41,336 --> 01:42:44,256
So that's the ceiling.

2104
01:42:44,776 --> 01:42:46,876
But in reality, I would guess.

2105
01:42:47,096 --> 01:42:48,216
But that's not even the upper bound

2106
01:42:48,216 --> 01:42:50,276
because someone might own 10 addresses

2107
01:42:50,276 --> 01:42:51,556
that have a million sets in them.

2108
01:42:52,016 --> 01:42:52,416
Correct.

2109
01:42:52,836 --> 01:42:54,336
So it's actually not even the upper bound.

2110
01:42:55,876 --> 01:42:56,936
I kind of want to pull this.

2111
01:42:56,996 --> 01:42:57,536
Oh, I won't pull it.

2112
01:42:57,536 --> 01:42:58,796
But it is probably less than that.

2113
01:42:58,876 --> 01:43:01,256
I would guess maybe three to five million people.

2114
01:43:02,396 --> 01:43:02,676
Yeah.

2115
01:43:03,896 --> 01:43:05,656
I mean, it's mostly a gut thing

2116
01:43:05,656 --> 01:43:07,396
because you're ultimately making guesses.

2117
01:43:07,776 --> 01:43:08,356
What do you think?

2118
01:43:08,356 --> 01:43:18,656
i think over what bitcoin is probably less than 200 000 people like 100 to 2000 200 000 people

2119
01:43:18,656 --> 01:43:24,896
and um in a single address or no not in a single it's just self-custody okay self-custody one

2120
01:43:24,896 --> 01:43:29,496
bitcoin 100 000 to 200 000 people hopefully they're not holding it in one address like you

2121
01:43:29,496 --> 01:43:34,536
should be using multiple addresses it's just better practice um most modern wallets for years

2122
01:43:34,536 --> 01:43:40,936
have defaulted to that so like we should assume most people are doing that um 10 million sets

2123
01:43:41,896 --> 01:43:49,896
self-custody to twelve thousand dollars at the time of this recording yeah like five to ten million

2124
01:43:49,896 --> 01:43:58,296
people and so when we go back to our earlier conversation about what does success look like

2125
01:43:58,296 --> 01:44:04,296
like i feel like that's the number to look at because first of all holding is using

2126
01:44:05,016 --> 01:44:09,736
you're using as a savings mechanism you're going to eventually spend it at some point otherwise

2127
01:44:09,736 --> 01:44:13,336
you can't realize the value you need both spending and holding they're both using

2128
01:44:13,976 --> 01:44:18,936
bitcoin that's actually a quantifiable metric an objective metric

2129
01:44:21,576 --> 01:44:23,656
one percent of the population would be a hundred million people

2130
01:44:23,656 --> 01:44:29,256
so if we're counting that as like

2131
01:44:29,256 --> 01:44:35,496
a user is someone that holds at least twelve thousand dollars worth of bitcoin

2132
01:44:35,496 --> 01:44:37,936
and ultimately spends it at some point in the future

2133
01:44:37,936 --> 01:44:45,716
if we want to get to five percent we have to hit what 500 million

2134
01:44:45,716 --> 01:44:56,736
so we need we need a 100x growth just to hit five percent if that original assumption is correct

2135
01:44:56,736 --> 01:45:03,136
and so i would just say to people it's like this is a long fucking grind this is a century project

2136
01:45:03,136 --> 01:45:16,979
right like this this is something we say internally at 1031 it something we definitely believe in open sets it like we building for the next century yeah you need to It a long long grind There are less users out there than you think there are

2137
01:45:18,639 --> 01:45:20,319
And that number will be way smaller now.

2138
01:45:20,499 --> 01:45:21,439
We need to grow that pie.

2139
01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:25,179
We definitely need to grow that pie, but that number will be smaller now than it would have been

2140
01:45:25,179 --> 01:45:29,179
if we hadn't had ETFs and treasury companies and things like that.

2141
01:45:30,619 --> 01:45:35,599
Yeah. I mean, I think there's two different dynamics there, right? I think the ETFs definitely

2142
01:45:35,599 --> 01:45:40,739
increase the purchasing power of Bitcoin. 100%. I think the treasury companies do as well.

2143
01:45:44,119 --> 01:45:48,779
And I think the purchasing power of Bitcoin has been the largest, when Bitcoin price goes up,

2144
01:45:48,819 --> 01:45:55,459
it's the largest driver of new user growth. It's hard to argue that's a net negative. I think it

2145
01:45:55,459 --> 01:46:01,739
definitely, in individual cases, has slowed down retail coming into actual self-custody Bitcoin.

2146
01:46:01,739 --> 01:46:09,019
um i think if someone gets wrecked on a treasury company in fidelity their transition to move into

2147
01:46:09,019 --> 01:46:12,959
self-custody bitcoin is actually much more difficult than if they got wrecked on eath if

2148
01:46:12,959 --> 01:46:16,539
they got wrecked on eath and they're in ledger or coinbase they can just like press the swap

2149
01:46:16,539 --> 01:46:21,119
button and go into bitcoin yeah fidelity they have to like withdraw it and do it or whatever

2150
01:46:21,119 --> 01:46:27,599
um the other piece here is that etfs i wouldn't i mean competitively i know they want to offer

2151
01:46:27,599 --> 01:46:31,339
in-kind withdrawals where you can just withdraw bitcoin from the etf without a tax hit

2152
01:46:31,339 --> 01:46:34,339
didn't BlackRock announce that?

2153
01:46:34,459 --> 01:46:36,219
they would love to do it, they just haven't yet

2154
01:46:36,219 --> 01:46:37,619
oh I thought they announced it recently

2155
01:46:37,619 --> 01:46:39,979
they announced they want to

2156
01:46:39,979 --> 01:46:42,439
I don't think any users are doing it right now

2157
01:46:42,439 --> 01:46:43,239
are able to do it

2158
01:46:43,239 --> 01:46:44,019
they have it in Australia

2159
01:46:44,019 --> 01:46:48,959
so in that case that actually would directly provide a path

2160
01:46:48,959 --> 01:46:50,079
to people

2161
01:46:50,079 --> 01:46:53,019
but I think that's the number we want to grow

2162
01:46:53,019 --> 01:46:55,199
and I think it's important for us to be realistic

2163
01:46:55,199 --> 01:46:57,259
about where we currently are

2164
01:46:57,259 --> 01:47:01,219
and I think the way you accelerate

2165
01:47:01,219 --> 01:47:10,899
that i think something like bitcoin that has this natural network effect growth growth engine in the

2166
01:47:10,899 --> 01:47:17,459
purchasing price increase is if like we do basically nothing we'll probably still get

2167
01:47:17,459 --> 01:47:23,879
global adoption at some point in the future um just because like right now even if there's only

2168
01:47:23,879 --> 01:47:29,959
10 million of us and we're all stacking like we're gonna drive that price there's not there's

2169
01:47:29,959 --> 01:47:33,299
not that much bitcoin out there right we're still going to drive the price up and as we drive the

2170
01:47:33,299 --> 01:47:38,519
price up like more bitcoiners will come in um so it's not like i'm not like coming at it from like

2171
01:47:38,519 --> 01:47:44,159
uh um like a ponzi economics kind of point of view it's like oh we need more new money into the system

2172
01:47:44,159 --> 01:47:49,159
um so we want we want new money in the system because we want more people to have bitcoin yeah

2173
01:47:49,159 --> 01:47:52,059
no no but so what i'm saying is like i think it's going to happen regardless

2174
01:47:52,059 --> 01:47:59,419
but i would like to accelerate it i think life is short i don't want my kids to be like 70 years old

2175
01:48:00,519 --> 01:48:05,479
by the time they're able to like really take advantage of like a beautiful bitcoin global

2176
01:48:05,479 --> 01:48:09,719
economy that they can like spend and save without permission on whatever they want to do

2177
01:48:10,999 --> 01:48:15,559
and the best way to accelerate is to pour money and support into the system whether that's on the

2178
01:48:15,559 --> 01:48:19,959
for-profit side or whether that's on the non-profit side because we need both we need foundational

2179
01:48:19,959 --> 01:48:25,639
open source software and open protocols and then we need private profitable ethical aligned

2180
01:48:25,639 --> 01:48:34,359
businesses that scale those out even further in a sustainable way um and that's what i'm that's my

2181
01:48:34,359 --> 01:48:39,159
that is what i've been mission focused on doing and then i have the two tangential pieces which is

2182
01:48:39,799 --> 01:48:44,439
bitcoin park in the podcast for education and bitcoin policy institute to keep us out of the

2183
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:50,439
gulags and like that is that is my playbook it's open out there for the world that's how

2184
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:51,459
how I'm thinking about things.

2185
01:48:51,979 --> 01:48:52,919
But we need to accelerate.

2186
01:48:53,779 --> 01:48:54,699
Time is of the essence.

2187
01:48:55,599 --> 01:48:56,359
It's not an emergency,

2188
01:48:57,219 --> 01:48:58,799
but sooner would be better.

2189
01:48:59,359 --> 01:48:59,719
I love it.

2190
01:49:00,139 --> 01:49:00,659
Bitcoin's winning.

2191
01:49:00,819 --> 01:49:01,419
We just need to win

2192
01:49:01,419 --> 01:49:01,999
a little bit harder.

2193
01:49:02,139 --> 01:49:02,779
Let's win faster.

2194
01:49:03,199 --> 01:49:03,959
I love it, man.

2195
01:49:04,059 --> 01:49:04,959
Thank you for doing this.

2196
01:49:05,139 --> 01:49:05,679
Thanks for having me.

2197
01:49:05,839 --> 01:49:06,819
Should we go and drink some beers?

2198
01:49:06,919 --> 01:49:07,979
Thanks for coming back to Nashville.

2199
01:49:08,239 --> 01:49:08,899
Of course, man.

2200
01:49:08,939 --> 01:49:09,359
I love it here.

2201
01:49:09,559 --> 01:49:09,799
Cheers.

2202
01:49:10,099 --> 01:49:10,339
Cheers.

2203
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:50,419
Thank you.