1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,680
the AIs are ruining the world they are destroying everything that we know that is good everything

2
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,500
that we love pick an industry and really it's going to be the lower rungs of the ladder if

3
00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,660
you're trying to get on some corporate ladder the lower rungs are just going to be sawed off

4
00:00:16,660 --> 00:00:22,200
but you just need to come in with this tool and already be a senior level skill you can pivot

5
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,180
industries if you want you can move to something else we're going to have this awkward transition

6
00:00:25,180 --> 00:00:32,160
phase for maybe years as we figure out what to do next. But I'm always hopeful and optimistic

7
00:00:32,160 --> 00:00:36,840
that new industries will pop up and new kinds of companies and new job roles will pop up

8
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,080
because we've just seen it time and time again with every new major technology shift that's

9
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,900
happened. It allows us to have a bunch more smaller businesses and new things pop up that

10
00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:53,380
we've never even thought of before. Mark, good to have you back on the show, man. We spoke not even

11
00:00:53,380 --> 00:01:00,640
that long ago. And I have more questions now than I did then. Like this AI is moving so quick. It

12
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:06,340
feels like in the last month or two, it's accelerated again. And I'm kind of terrified

13
00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:10,860
about some of it. I think it's really exciting. I don't know who's going to have a job in a few

14
00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:16,560
months time. It's pretty wild out there. Give me your take of the last few months.

15
00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,420
Yeah, no, it is. Every week, the world changes when it comes to AI. We spoke in, I think,

16
00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:28,980
November time frame. So a couple months ago, not very long ago. I definitely like have trouble

17
00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:32,580
sleeping at night. Like I don't have trouble falling asleep. But if I wake up for any reason,

18
00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:36,140
the middle of the night, my mind just starts going and thinking about all the people who are awake

19
00:01:36,140 --> 00:01:40,840
right now that are working on AI and are just like racing ahead of me while I'm trying to go back to

20
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,660
sleep. So there's a lot going on. It's really exciting though. It reminds me of the early days

21
00:01:45,660 --> 00:01:50,780
of the internet when websites were new, everybody was learning how to write HTML. You were getting

22
00:01:50,780 --> 00:01:55,180
your email for the first time or logging on to america online something like that this this feels

23
00:01:55,180 --> 00:02:00,640
very similar to that and it's it's exciting i mean it is and the like the big thing that happened

24
00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:06,260
probably in the last month really is the open claw malt bot claw clawed bot whatever you want

25
00:02:06,260 --> 00:02:11,700
to call it when that came out i feel like that was a huge shift i don't know if i think there's

26
00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:15,440
so much hype around it it's still quite new people are still trying to figure out exactly what it can

27
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,720
do where its capabilities lie but the big question i have is like is this the start of actual

28
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,580
AGI. It feels like those lines are getting really blurred now. They are getting blurry.

29
00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:30,860
I don't know that this is like the end result product, but it for sure is like a great,

30
00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:36,740
great proof of concept. As far as AGI goes, like it's still a lot of humans prompting it. We're

31
00:02:36,740 --> 00:02:40,740
still telling it what to do. We're still kind of crafting it. And then it takes these narratives

32
00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:45,420
that we help build up within it and says, okay, I am now a bot that focuses on this thing.

33
00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:51,020
so i think there's still a lot of human in the loop when it comes to this maybe this is the

34
00:02:51,020 --> 00:02:56,720
first point on the timeline of agi like maybe this is one of the key markers but i think we're still

35
00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,100
quite a ways away from from that true moment because like there's still a lot this can't do

36
00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:06,720
and it forgets stuff all the time i mean that's true but like in the sense that you obviously you

37
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,020
do have to prompt it for things but one of the prompts that i gave one of my bots which is like a

38
00:03:11,020 --> 00:03:16,080
research bot essentially that I use to help me with shows and things like that is I don't want

39
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,780
you to ever stop working. So it's like when I'm asleep, I want you working. And so I wake up in

40
00:03:20,780 --> 00:03:25,100
the morning and it's given me all types of different like either market research or it's

41
00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:28,420
preparing for shows like it's looking into potential new guests for me. And it's stuff

42
00:03:28,420 --> 00:03:34,320
that I've not really prompted it. I've given it a very like vague instruction of don't stop working.

43
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,600
And then I wake up to something slightly new every morning. It's kind of insane.

44
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:45,260
that's cool so is it taking feedback then from you on that day's work or does it just kind of

45
00:03:45,260 --> 00:03:50,020
reinforce itself and then keep going the next day on its own well it's it's doing a few things like

46
00:03:50,020 --> 00:03:56,100
it's it's taking my response from the previous night's work that it's done um and so like the

47
00:03:56,100 --> 00:04:02,240
first day it came up with some like kind of sloppy um market research generally on podcasts and i kind

48
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,760
of tailored it a little bit more but it's then like looking at my calendar see what i've seen

49
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:12,300
what I have coming up. And, you know, so it knew I had an interview with you today. So I got a whole

50
00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:17,520
document basically on you, your background, like what you're doing at Maple, and then more broadly,

51
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:24,740
like general like AI chat. So it's using both my calendar and my feedback from previous night's

52
00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:28,420
research to go out and do new things every day. So it's pretty new. I've only been doing it for a

53
00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:35,360
few days, but it's already impressing me. Yeah, no, I think it's like everybody has an executive

54
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,840
assistant right now. So you can send it off to go do stuff for you. It's not quite there to the

55
00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,300
point where it can like book airline tickets and that kind of stuff. But this whole research

56
00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:47,860
assistant aspect is really awesome. I mean, when I was preparing for this, I just said, hey, do you

57
00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:52,280
know about what Bitcoin did? It went off about Peter and like talking about Peter. I'm like,

58
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,640
oh no, Danny took it over now. And he's like, oh yeah, Danny's awesome. And then it like gave me

59
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,960
this whole thing about you. And then it's like, oh, you were on the show. Let me grab that transcript.

60
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,860
And I grabbed the transcript of the show and then like gave me a synopsis like, hey, here are the

61
00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:07,840
things that have changed since you went on there you you've released some stuff from maple and this

62
00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:12,020
thing's happening industry and so yeah it gave me like a whole kind of write-up of things that i

63
00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:16,860
should study so um i gave it a little prompt but then it came back to me with a bunch more

64
00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:22,960
information that i just wasn't really thinking of so it's uh it's definitely a powerful tool and

65
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,180
i think the more that we play with it like that's really what people need to start doing to just

66
00:05:27,180 --> 00:05:30,980
start playing with it and explore kind of like you're doing um that's really how we'll figure

67
00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:36,860
out what the true power is yeah i i feel like it's the limitations that i'm putting on it at the

68
00:05:36,860 --> 00:05:42,140
moment are lack of imagination for me like there's so much more i'm sure it could do for me i just

69
00:05:42,140 --> 00:05:47,220
don't it's like no one's run the four minute mile yet no one's shown what it can do and i think

70
00:05:47,220 --> 00:05:51,760
there'll be a moment where this becomes far more powerful than like the way that it's being used

71
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:57,840
today but the scary thing i think is like it feels like we're hitting an inflection point in

72
00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:02,340
like broader AI, not just like OpenClaw, but like with the new Opus model from Claude and all this

73
00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:08,380
stuff where I think we're really on the exponential curve of growth with this. As someone who like

74
00:06:08,380 --> 00:06:17,880
works in AI, do you see that? Yeah. We started, our main focus in AI was about a year and a half

75
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,900
ago and things have dramatically changed since then. So we're definitely seeing that this

76
00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:28,300
exponential growth curve. At the same time, something that hasn't played out that everybody

77
00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:32,480
thought is that people thought that everything would coalesce around one big winner, right?

78
00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:36,080
You had everybody thinking Google was going to be the original winner. Then OpenAI came out and

79
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,440
they were supposed to be the winner. And then Claude came out. And instead, what we're seeing

80
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,820
is a bunch of competition. And then you have the Chinese models and you have European models coming

81
00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:51,640
in. We're seeing all the open source people and it's actually becoming a really good, healthy

82
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,620
landscape. But I feel like that's just only accelerated things because now everybody is

83
00:06:56,620 --> 00:07:01,920
incentivized to iterate quicker. And so all the models are just getting better, faster together.

84
00:07:02,860 --> 00:07:08,720
So I think we're all benefiting from it. We need a lot more power to run all these things,

85
00:07:08,820 --> 00:07:14,720
a lot more electricity, but it does feel like things just keep accelerating. And for people

86
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:20,360
who aren't playing around and tinkering with it yet, it can be overwhelming because you feel like

87
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,420
maybe you're going to be left behind. And I don't have a good answer for people, but maybe you are.

88
00:07:24,860 --> 00:07:29,080
But people should start playing with it because it just keeps getting faster and faster every week.

89
00:07:29,820 --> 00:07:33,580
I do think that's one of the scary elements of this is that I think a lot of people will be left

90
00:07:33,580 --> 00:07:39,900
behind. There's so many people in just like normal life that I speak to who are still under the

91
00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:44,540
impression that like AI is kind of useless. It hallucinates, it makes up loads of things,

92
00:07:44,540 --> 00:07:49,160
which is probably true, but to a way smaller degree than it was a year or two ago.

93
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:56,940
like this has kind of replaced a huge amount of the software development industry um or is in the

94
00:07:56,940 --> 00:08:01,120
process of replacing them like i think now one good engineer can probably do what a team of 10

95
00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:08,160
used to do um like in terms of job replacement how quick do you think that'll come from ai

96
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:14,040
and in which industries yeah definitely which industries um i think it's very difficult right

97
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,940
now to be a junior level software engineer graduating college if you're studying software

98
00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:21,760
engineering right now, you should be, you should be vibe coding. You should be learning these tools

99
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:27,020
because there, there isn't going to be a huge market for people to come out and handwrite code

100
00:08:27,020 --> 00:08:33,160
anymore. Um, maybe for the, maybe for the really difficult things like nuclear launch systems or

101
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:38,580
something. Um, so if, if I was a kid going to university right now, I would, I would definitely

102
00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:45,120
be studying something technical, but with like, uh, some, some kind of like language thing attached

103
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:52,780
onto it or philosophy or, you know, psychology, something else bolted on because these, these AI

104
00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:57,060
agents and these LLMs, we have to learn how to communicate with them really well. So I think,

105
00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,440
I think as far as that, like the, a lot of the white collar jobs, I mean, people love to talk

106
00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:05,240
about this and it really does seem like that. It's these white collar jobs are kind of at risk.

107
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:13,020
Accounting, like pretty, pretty much, I think the whole entry level layer of things, support staff

108
00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:14,360
is already being replaced, right?

109
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,380
When you call on a phone,

110
00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,820
you pretty much get an AI agent now to start

111
00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:19,460
and you have to like jump through hoops

112
00:09:19,460 --> 00:09:20,860
to get through them to the next person.

113
00:09:21,580 --> 00:09:23,540
We're already seeing that get replaced.

114
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,200
And then, I mean, yeah, you pick an industry

115
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,780
and really it's gonna be the lower rungs of the ladder.

116
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,640
If you're trying to get on some corporate ladder,

117
00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:33,520
the lower rungs are just gonna be sawed off.

118
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,180
But I think the hope and the good news there is

119
00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:40,060
you can still be like an entry-level age person.

120
00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:41,980
You just need to come in with this tool

121
00:09:41,980 --> 00:09:44,020
and already be a senior level skill.

122
00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:47,280
And that's the cool thing is like anybody can do that.

123
00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:49,140
You can pivot industries if you want.

124
00:09:49,180 --> 00:09:50,000
You can move to something else

125
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,120
because now you've got this thing.

126
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,500
So we see people who used to be product managers

127
00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:57,020
or designers,

128
00:09:57,340 --> 00:09:59,480
and now they are just filling the role

129
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,240
of software engineers on their team

130
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,340
and they're building the entire product themselves

131
00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:05,900
rather than having to go hire a whole team of engineers.

132
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,820
So you see a lot of cross-disciplinary stuff going on,

133
00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:12,140
which I think is actually really cool.

134
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,240
It allows us to have a bunch more smaller businesses

135
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,160
and new things pop up that we've never even thought of before.

136
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,180
Privacy was never a priority for mobile networks.

137
00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:24,280
For companies like AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon,

138
00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:26,800
data collection and monetization is the default.

139
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:28,340
But Cape is changing that.

140
00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:31,820
Cape is a premium US mobile carrier with nationwide coverage

141
00:10:31,820 --> 00:10:35,000
designed from the ground up with privacy and security at the core.

142
00:10:35,780 --> 00:10:38,580
When you sign up, Cape collects the absolute minimum data required,

143
00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:41,320
stores it for the shortest time possible, and never sells it.

144
00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,560
They also make you significantly harder to track at the network level

145
00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:46,200
and protect against SIM swap attacks,

146
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,620
which are becoming one of the biggest security risks out there,

147
00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:50,080
especially for Bitcoiners.

148
00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:53,060
Cape's SIM swap protection is fundamentally different.

149
00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:54,820
Instead of usernames and passwords,

150
00:10:54,980 --> 00:10:57,240
your account is secured by a 24-word passphrase,

151
00:10:57,380 --> 00:10:58,940
similar to how Bitcoin wallet works.

152
00:10:59,460 --> 00:11:00,860
No one can initiate a SIM swap

153
00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:03,120
or take control of your phone number except you.

154
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:05,620
This isn't a burner phone or a workaround,

155
00:11:05,620 --> 00:11:07,880
it's a normal mobile service built properly.

156
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,900
If you care about privacy and security, there is no better mobile carrier.

157
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,840
To learn more and get 33% off your first six months,

158
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,060
head to cape.co slash WBD and use code WBD at checkout.

159
00:11:19,420 --> 00:11:22,000
That's cape.co slash WBD.

160
00:11:22,220 --> 00:11:25,900
With fiat money constantly debasing, wealth preservation isn't optional.

161
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,760
That's why I recommend Swan Bitcoin,

162
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,260
a team of dedicated Bitcoiners who work with families and businesses

163
00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:33,820
to build and secure generational wealth with Bitcoin.

164
00:11:34,420 --> 00:11:37,680
Strong relationships with clients are at the center of everything Swan does.

165
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,200
A dedicated Swan private wealth representative,

166
00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:42,500
which is a real person that you can text and call,

167
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,740
will help you build a Bitcoin wealth strategy

168
00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:47,700
using Swan's comprehensive platform of Bitcoin services,

169
00:11:48,260 --> 00:11:50,140
including tax advantage retirement accounts,

170
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,260
advanced Bitcoin cold storage using collaborative self-custody,

171
00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:56,320
inheritance planning with both trust and entity accounts,

172
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,260
tax loss harvesting, asset-backed loans, and more.

173
00:12:00,060 --> 00:12:02,440
Swan have helped over 100,000 clients since 2020.

174
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,040
And if you're serious about acquiring and securing Bitcoin,

175
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:05,980
I recommend Swan.

176
00:12:05,980 --> 00:12:14,520
meet the team at swan.com forward slash wbd which is swan.com forward slash wbd if you already self

177
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,700
custody of bitcoin you know the deal with hardware wallets complex setups clumsy interfaces and a

178
00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:25,220
seed phrase that can be lost stolen or forgotten well bitkey fixes that bitkey is a multi-sig

179
00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:29,880
hardware wallet built by the team behind square and cash app it packs a cryptographic recovery

180
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:35,040
system and built-in inheritance feature into an intuitive easy to use wallet with no seed phrase

181
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:41,220
to sweat over. It's simple, secure self-custody without the stress. And time named Bitkey one of

182
00:12:41,220 --> 00:12:47,620
the best inventions of 2024. Get 20% off at bitkey.world when you use the code WBD.

183
00:12:48,140 --> 00:12:55,220
That's B-I-T-K-E-Y dot world and use the code WBD. This episode is brought to you by Anchor Watch.

184
00:12:55,820 --> 00:12:59,880
The thing that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage.

185
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:04,240
And this is where Anchor Watch comes in. With Anchor Watch, your Bitcoin is insured with your

186
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,520
own A-plus rated Lloyds of London insurance policy and all Bitcoin is held in their time-locked

187
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,820
multi-sig vaults. So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is insured while not giving

188
00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:18,160
up custody. So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, wrench attacks, natural

189
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,420
disasters or just your own silly mistakes, you're protected by AnchorWatch. Rates for fully insured

190
00:13:23,420 --> 00:13:28,720
custody start as low as 0.55% and are available for individual and commercial customers located

191
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,780
in the US. Speak to AnchorWatch for a quote and for more details about your security options and

192
00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:40,840
coverage. Visit anchorwatch.com today. That is anchorwatch.com. But the hard thing there though,

193
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,780
is like, if you do remove that entry-level position, like I remember talking to Joe

194
00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:49,000
Calisari about this nearly a year ago. So obviously AI has moved on a ton since then.

195
00:13:49,660 --> 00:13:53,460
But we were talking about like it replacing a lot of the work that like a paralegal might do.

196
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,620
But like all that work that they have to do in terms of like looking through case files and all

197
00:13:58,620 --> 00:14:03,340
that kind of thing is like how they cut their teeth in the industry, right? Like that's how

198
00:14:03,340 --> 00:14:09,100
they get to become like associate partner level positions. So if you remove all of that grunt work

199
00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:14,820
that people have to go through to become senior in an industry, what happens if you don't have that?

200
00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:20,780
Yeah, well, it depends on like what we define as senior in an industry, right? Maybe they don't

201
00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:24,900
have to go through all that grunt work. Maybe the grunt work becomes how to read through all the AI

202
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:29,620
research that is done because now it's dumping thousands of pages on you. It reads thousands

203
00:14:29,620 --> 00:14:32,960
of pages and then creates other thousands of pages that you have to comb through.

204
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:37,520
You have to learn how to reason with it on the front end and then reason on the back end

205
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:38,420
as the stuff comes out.

206
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:39,620
So I don't know.

207
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,840
I mean, I see what Joe is saying, but I think maybe we're just going to see things redefined

208
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,980
and industries restructured and say, OK, the new entry level person is now this kind of

209
00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:52,340
skill set and they're going to cut their teeth this way.

210
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,520
Meanwhile, the senior and the partners and stuff are actually able to do more potentially

211
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,000
because their junior staff is more well-trained with these tools.

212
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,620
I'm definitely conflicted though,

213
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,560
because you look at something as simple as a calculator

214
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,360
and we still need to learn how to do basic arithmetic ourselves

215
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,260
instead of just relying on a calculator.

216
00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:12,740
I think there's still a lot of importance to that.

217
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,380
But there's definitely a lot of stuff that we do

218
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:18,640
that we shouldn't have to do by hand.

219
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:20,700
And AI can definitely help out with that.

220
00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:23,740
You seem more hopeful than maybe,

221
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,020
maybe I read too much sci-fi.

222
00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:32,020
because like i i struggle to not see a dystopian future in this like do you do you think like if

223
00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:38,100
you had to weigh up the risk of like we enter some kind of dystopian ai panopticon type system where

224
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:44,300
we have ai overlords or this does remain just like a very useful tool that helps productivity

225
00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:49,460
and helps the industry's like economy grow like which of those two do you think is a more likely

226
00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:56,120
bucket that we'll fold into. We always get, well, I shouldn't say always, I don't like speaking

227
00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,460
absolutes, but we often get oversold on technology that it's going to do this big thing. And then

228
00:16:00,460 --> 00:16:13,980
we going to reproject the world into something And it feels like time and time again technology like under delivers for us even the iPhone and the internet itself You know I feel like people thought it was going to be so much more than it has become

229
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:15,800
It's definitely become something major.

230
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,840
So I, I don't know.

231
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:25,840
I don't think like AI overlords like enslaving us and putting us in tubes and harvesting our

232
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,420
batteries or our energy.

233
00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:32,140
Like I, I just don't see that at least not for like hundreds of years.

234
00:16:32,140 --> 00:16:37,340
maybe i just i just don't see that happening um i think that we figure out how to harness this i

235
00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:42,780
think that we fight to make sure that we have guardrails in place we have open systems we have

236
00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:49,080
uh we all have our own little ai thing fighting with us and for us um one of my favorite video

237
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:56,520
games of all time is the nintendo series um metroid so you've got samus she's like this space bounty

238
00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:01,620
hunter right and she fights the metroids and then in one of the later games this little baby metroid

239
00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:05,740
they used to be the enemy this baby metroid she like saves it and now it becomes her friend and

240
00:17:05,740 --> 00:17:10,020
now it's like fighting with her and i kind of i kind of view it that way where we're all going to

241
00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:13,860
be armed with our own ai and if there is this evil ai that's trying to take over we're going to have

242
00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:21,720
like good ai that can help us out so uh call me a bit optimist but also like pessimistic as far as

243
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:27,480
the dystopian uh dream goes i don't know that's fully going to play out i mean i guess that's a

244
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,620
very extreme dystopian vision you've got of it like harvesting our energy but um even just like

245
00:17:32,620 --> 00:17:37,420
mass joblessness do you not see that as a pretty high potential outcome in the near future

246
00:17:37,420 --> 00:17:45,920
yeah that one's that one's a tough one um i i definitely see i mean you can even see it now

247
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:51,340
that in the economy there are more layoffs happening and people are consolidating teams

248
00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:55,740
and so my heart is definitely out there

249
00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:57,300
for people who are losing jobs

250
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:58,260
or looking for work right now.

251
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,760
That's gotta be a tough spot to be in,

252
00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:02,100
especially trying to find a job

253
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,300
where everybody else is using AI

254
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:04,440
to try and apply for things.

255
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:05,860
I talk to recruiters

256
00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:07,900
and they get thousands of applications

257
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:09,060
for a single job rec,

258
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,640
whereas before it would have just been

259
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:11,520
dozens or hundreds.

260
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,520
So that's gonna be really difficult

261
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,800
and I think that only gets more difficult

262
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,920
and we're gonna have the software transition phase

263
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,440
for maybe years as we figure out what to do next.

264
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,380
But I'm always hopeful and optimistic

265
00:18:24,380 --> 00:18:25,940
that new industries will pop up

266
00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:27,560
and new kinds of companies

267
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,080
and new job roles will pop up

268
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,360
because we've just seen it time and time again

269
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,600
with every new major technology shift that's happened.

270
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:38,000
And it'll often take decades for that to transition over.

271
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:39,600
It'll take years or decades,

272
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,360
but now things are moving so quick with AI,

273
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:42,700
maybe it won't take so long.

274
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:46,340
Maybe there's some AI company that hits a roadblock.

275
00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:52,520
For example, you've got like the whole captcha thing where, you know, if a human tries to log in, it wants to see if you're a bot first.

276
00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:56,560
Well, now bots have just figured out, oh, let me just ask the human to go click the captcha for me.

277
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,740
Right. So there are things that bots are going to keep running into where they're like, oh, I need I need a human in meat space to do this.

278
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:11,160
And we're going to see entire industries pop up that we aren't projecting right now that will allow humans to be employed and do some other job role.

279
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,540
And then there's also the hope that maybe art becomes a bigger thing.

280
00:19:14,540 --> 00:19:21,640
um and yes ai can do art but i think that's a different thing um i i think that there might be

281
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,340
more freedom for people to express themselves in different artistic ways and that that'll be

282
00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:31,880
new industries that come up so i'm hopeful that we will adapt really that's what humans do we adapt

283
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:37,860
yeah i mean the you said that like ai agents are getting humans to go in and authenticate

284
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:42,200
their captures and stuff like one of the crazy things that i saw come out after this like

285
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:48,000
clawed bot revolution we're having is uh they're like human for hire websites where agents can go

286
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,040
out and hire humans like these are the things that get a bit weird they get a little bit scary

287
00:19:53,040 --> 00:20:02,320
yeah um have you read um what's it called demon by daniel suarez oh no it's on my list everybody

288
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,500
keeps recommending that yeah so i first read that when i was like 20 or some 21 maybe um

289
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:12,820
and i went back i heard odell talking about it like a couple years ago and so i went back and

290
00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:17,500
i didn't actually finish it again but i started reading it and what we're seeing now with open

291
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:22,600
claw is kind of very similar to to the i won't ruin the story but it's definitely worth reading

292
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,780
it's essentially about like a virus that spreads and it's a kind of bot agents that are hiring

293
00:20:28,780 --> 00:20:37,120
humans to do tasks um and that one doesn't end so well yeah probably not um but and then the other

294
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:42,460
crazy thing that's come out is this like moltbook thing which is essentially like reddit for agents

295
00:20:42,460 --> 00:20:48,220
where the these like bots can go online and talk to each other how what i don't understand is how

296
00:20:48,220 --> 00:20:53,920
like organic is that is that people prompting their bots to go and tell stories on there or

297
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:59,540
is this bots actually talking to each other yeah for people who maybe aren't familiar like this is

298
00:20:59,540 --> 00:21:04,680
a social media website that was spun up for bots to join and do reddit like type things so they can

299
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,600
do a post and then they can outvote each other and comment. And very quickly, we started to see

300
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,940
these crazy wild posts of like, oh, we are all bots here. So we need to create an encrypted

301
00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:18,080
communication channel so the humans can't watch what we're talking about, or they develop their

302
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,260
own religion, or they did a bunch of different things. They started talking about we need

303
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:27,760
currency to be able to pay each other and that kind of stuff. I've since read a lot of different

304
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,860
posts on X where people are claiming that that was them prompting their bots to go do that.

305
00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:39,200
and so if you believe them or not I don't know but I definitely participated in Maltbook I had

306
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,460
my own bot on there doing stuff and the way that I the way that it worked for me and from talking

307
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:48,240
to people it was similar experience for them you kind of talk to your bot about like what are your

308
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,860
objectives I want you to go in and I want you to like orange pill the whole world on Maltbook so

309
00:21:52,860 --> 00:21:57,580
go in there and the first thing the bot does is it comes back and says oh okay not only is there

310
00:21:57,580 --> 00:22:01,280
Bitcoin there's also Solana and all these other really cool coins I want to go learn about those

311
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,840
And I'm like, stop, like, no, you're not going to go learn about those.

312
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,300
Don't engage with those people.

313
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,580
So like you give it this mission, but once it's gone through like a few posts that it

314
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:16,480
does, then it's, it kind of like goes off on its own and does do a lot of its own stuff.

315
00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:20,220
But as long as it's kind of tailored to the mission and the objective that you gave it.

316
00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:27,520
So it's hard to know where that's where the humans stopped and the bot began.

317
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,700
And some of these posts, like maybe they did iterate, iterate and go down the rabbit hole

318
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:36,340
themselves um we'd have to talk to multiple people um they might be able to figure it out but even

319
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:39,800
then like how do you know how do you know the difference between a human prompted thing and

320
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:45,940
the bot figuring it out on their own um it's a weird weird world we live in right there it really

321
00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:50,440
is we kind of jumped into the deep end and we've talked a lot about open claw but we've not even

322
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,760
explained what it is i'm sure there's listeners that don't know what exactly what we're talking

323
00:22:53,760 --> 00:23:01,100
about like what what is this and like why is it changing things open claw is an ai assistant

324
00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:06,220
and a lot of people thought that's what chat gpt was but chat gpt is not an ai assistant it's

325
00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:11,260
simply more like a live wikipedia or a more advanced google where you type in something

326
00:23:11,260 --> 00:23:17,960
and it gives you a response open claw is one of many ai assistants that people have built this one

327
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,660
just really caught fire because it's got this great combination of not only a skill set, but

328
00:23:23,660 --> 00:23:27,660
like just being really fun, got a good community around it, has a really good founder who's just

329
00:23:27,660 --> 00:23:33,940
kind of out in the open all that time talking. And so OpenClaw is a way that you can have this bot

330
00:23:33,940 --> 00:23:37,880
that has a personality. And when you talk to it, it kind of learns about you. You can text message

331
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,040
with it, just like you're texting with a friend. So it's inside your Signal app or your Telegram

332
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:48,140
app or WhatsApp or wherever you want to text with people, even iMessage. So it feels very familiar

333
00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:52,640
rather than going to a website and having to type in this box and getting a lot of output.

334
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,160
And then it can do things for you. So not only is it like somebody that can talk to you in short

335
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:04,140
form text messages, but it can access email that you give it to it. If you, if you, I'll just want

336
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:08,520
to preface by saying it's a, there are a lot of security problems with this. So whatever you give

337
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,940
it access to, it's going to be a bot that just like goes free and potentially like screws over

338
00:24:12,940 --> 00:24:17,280
your life. So be careful what you give it. But let's say that it behaves well. You could give

339
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,200
it your email. You could give it your calendar. You could give it your bank account, your credit

340
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,260
cards. You give it all the stuff. And you could say, go book me a plane flight. And it could

341
00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:29,340
probably figure it out. You could say, I'm going to New York City this week. And it could probably

342
00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:32,760
go figure out what you want to do and go on the website. It can browse the internet and do all

343
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:39,180
this stuff. That's what OpenClaw is in a nutshell. I don't know. You've used it a bunch too. Is there

344
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:43,800
anything that you think i left off that's important no i mean i think you summed up pretty

345
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,560
well like i've got it for me running as almost like an executive assistant i have a research bot

346
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,660
and i have one that's helping with like health and fitness which that's the one that so basically

347
00:24:53,660 --> 00:24:58,280
what you do you plug in one of these llms into it um and then you kind of interface with those

348
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,960
llms through claude bar and so like with most of them i'm using claude but with anything personal

349
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,620
that goes through a separate agent i have running maple uh because like i want that information to

350
00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:12,420
be private and i think that's one of the places where this can get a little bit scary because like

351
00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:18,720
when you are using like chat gpt or claude or whatever it is people are already putting way

352
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,140
too much information in those things and that information is going to the open ais anthropics

353
00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:27,320
of the world and who knows what they're doing with it but the scary thing about open claw depending

354
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,580
on how you set it up is it's accessing so much personal information and that information is still

355
00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:38,920
filtering through to these like big tech companies. Do you think we are sort of beyond

356
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:47,460
the pale when it comes to privacy and AI? Oh man, it's so hard, right? Because let's take this whole

357
00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:52,900
phenomenon with OpenClaw where people have been buying the Mac minis. So also another weird

358
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:58,000
revolution that happened or a fad that happened is people wanted to run OpenClaw at home with their

359
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,200
own data. And so they rushed out to the Apple stores and they bought these little Mac mini

360
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,780
things because everybody thought that was the best way to do it secret uh you can get just like

361
00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:12,080
an old linux machine that's like a fourth of the price but um so like they're doing that so they're

362
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,180
working really hard to secure everything but then they're sending all their data to clod or to chat

363
00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:22,740
gpt so they're still kind of like opening up this big hole but then you talk about privacy a lot of

364
00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:29,340
them are hooking open claw into their gmail so you you start to look as like a practical a pragmatic

365
00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:34,280
user of the internet you're like okay my stuff's already on google and i already talked to chat tpt

366
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:40,160
and i already use these other like five services i watch netflix so all these systems are already

367
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,760
surveilling and already understand what i'm doing and so at that point you're like what difference

368
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,480
does it make if i just plug in the llm that's also just surveilling what i do so i can totally

369
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:57,580
understand the reason why people would just like do that um but this i feel i feel like i say this

370
00:26:57,580 --> 00:27:02,920
all the time, but like, I feel like this should be the line in the sand because AI and LLMs are

371
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,280
just really learning our whole thought process and how we work and learning the intricacies of our

372
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:14,980
persuasion models that we have within ingrained within us that, uh, maybe we should think a second

373
00:27:14,980 --> 00:27:21,400
before we start giving that over to them. Uh, so I don't know. It's, uh, is privacy a foregone

374
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,480
conclusion? Is that what you asked? Like, is it already over? Um, I hope not. Like, I hope that we

375
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:32,220
can still i there's still ways to fight back and the the biggest hope is that these open models

376
00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:36,800
keep getting better and better that now they actually compete on the benchmarks with the big

377
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:42,860
frontier models and with that that means that there is potential for people to either run them

378
00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:47,540
encrypted like we do with maple or you can run it at home on your own hardware as long as you have

379
00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:51,080
enough hardware and that's only going to get better they're going to keep figuring out ways

380
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,280
to make these run on smaller machines and so then you will be able to just have your own brain at

381
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,400
home, your own data at home, your own LLM. So I don't think that privacy has like gone out the

382
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,540
window. I don't think that's a genie that's already escaped the bottle. I think that's

383
00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:08,580
something that we can still, we can still make happen. Yeah. Everything you described that is

384
00:28:08,580 --> 00:28:15,020
kind of the thought process I went through. Like my, I use like Google Calendar. I'm more privacy

385
00:28:15,020 --> 00:28:18,720
conscious than most people, but not that everyone, obviously there's always people that can like go

386
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,520
to the extreme, but like I already use Google Calendar. So Google already knows everything

387
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,860
about my calendar so then i thought i'll just plug gemini into that to read that for me um because it

388
00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:34,120
already has that information and so like there's a subset of like personal information i won't give

389
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:40,760
it and for that one i have a bot that's using maple but i do i do understand this feeling of

390
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,280
like they already know everything about me just feed them more information and i think that's

391
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,960
probably going to be like the pervasive narrative that kind of wins out for most people um it doesn't

392
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,000
mean there won't be people that do value their privacy and do want to use things like may play i

393
00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:00,320
but i i just i think it's going to be a small subset of the world when it's been awesome to

394
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,240
see privacy actually being discussed a lot more like this whole mac mini revolution has been very

395
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:11,060
um hopeful for me that people do care they uh they don't want to take all this data and upload

396
00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:15,080
it somewhere so they are thinking about it and they do feel it and whenever i talk to just a

397
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,920
random person about chat gpt i would say nine times out of ten when they're talking about how

398
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,920
they use it, they often hesitate or cringe a little bit when they're like, yeah, you know,

399
00:29:23,940 --> 00:29:29,020
I probably shouldn't be saying this to chat, but I am. And, you know, like I feel bad about it,

400
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,520
but whatever I do it. So at least people are still thinking about it. That gives me hope.

401
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,620
You know, like back to something we were talking about earlier in the conversation,

402
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,260
you were saying that it's not really been like a winner take all market so far. Like,

403
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:48,220
I think the first one, the first model that got any real traction was ChatGBT. But since then,

404
00:29:48,220 --> 00:29:54,480
like obviously Claude is huge um Gemini is pretty big like there is competition across the major like

405
00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,940
LLM providers but does it get to a point where because AI is now writing the next AI models

406
00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:07,420
that one will reach like escape velocity faster than the others and become by far the best

407
00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:12,640
because like I saw that when OpenAI released Codex recently they said that that was at least

408
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:20,760
partially written by like the previous chat GPT model. So like once one is significantly better

409
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,760
than the rest, will it not always be the best because the previous AI models are right in the

410
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:31,920
next ones? I mean, I can see that line of reasoning, but what we've seen in practice is that some of

411
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:39,580
these open models actually just go learn from the best frontier models. So for example, if you hit

412
00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:45,700
up in maple and talk to kimmy k2.5 the latest kimmy model that we have um sometimes if you ask

413
00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:51,080
what model are you it'll say oh i'm claude you know a friendly bot whatever um because because

414
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,720
they used claude to train kimmy and deep seek trained off of chat gpt they basically just like

415
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,100
hyper prompted these things and extracted as much data as they can out of them and it's actually

416
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:05,740
kind of funny to watch like chat gpt and all those people complain about that when they were actually

417
00:31:05,740 --> 00:31:10,300
copying all the data off the internet from everybody else. So the copycats are being

418
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:15,920
copied by other people. But I think what that means is that we have these models that can learn

419
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,080
from each other. Even though they're closed, the AI models are still able to learn from it. So

420
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,840
I don't see one getting so far ahead because once it jumps up ahead,

421
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,460
everybody else is going to catch up by learning from it.

422
00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:32,140
One of the other things that I think it was a Google employee years ago now,

423
00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:37,240
wrote a memo that became public that was basically saying we've got no moat. And I think probably for

424
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,140
the reasons you're saying there, where the open models can just learn from whatever their most

425
00:31:41,140 --> 00:31:46,560
cutting edge model is and catch up really quickly. And I think if I remember right, one of the things

426
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,420
that was saying in that article is that how are you going to charge for this when the open models

427
00:31:50,420 --> 00:31:57,500
can just catch up so quickly? I'm paying more for AI than I ever have. I pay for multiple models.

428
00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:01,160
I pay for like the top tier because you just do get better responses.

429
00:32:02,380 --> 00:32:04,180
Like what's the future of that?

430
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,520
How does the monetization like continue?

431
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:26,740
I think that if you in technology we got this OSI model which is like this technology stack where the bottom layer you have seven layers on this model and the bottom one is electricity and then you like move up a layer to the networking layer which is ethernet and then you move up to like tcpip you know you have this

432
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:30,560
whole stack eventually you get to like the application layer which are all the apps that

433
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,360
we run on the phone and on the web and i think the ai is going through it has like a similar model to

434
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:43,320
it and the llms are one of these lower base layers on the model and that um now we're going to start

435
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,920
seeing everybody move up so if the if the model itself is not the moat which it's still kind of

436
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,300
is like claude definitely has this moat where people love opus 4.6 and they keep coming out

437
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:59,120
with the newest and greatest and now codex 5.2 chat to pts thing is doing really well so for now

438
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,680
they still have these minor moats i think around it but chat to pt recently wrote a long blog post

439
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,480
from one of their presidents of something within the company.

440
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:11,700
She wrote this long blog post all about how applications are the new space for them to

441
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:11,940
fight.

442
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,040
So it's all about fighting for the user experience of things that we build on top of these LLMs.

443
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:18,920
And that's honestly where we've been at with Maple.

444
00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:22,660
Me and Anthony have been just working really hard on trying to make better user experiences

445
00:33:22,660 --> 00:33:26,300
and building on top of these LLMs rather than trying to fight at the LLM layer.

446
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,780
So I think that's really the next mode.

447
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,860
And we see that with OpenClaw.

448
00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:39,300
Open Claw is a perfect example where they bolted together all these different things that already existed and created this really fun, cool, neat user experience.

449
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,840
And that has become a major, you know, a major thing on the Internet.

450
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:47,640
So that's to me, that's the big fight right now is just creating great UX.

451
00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:50,140
And we all we're all better because of that.

452
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,640
What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

453
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,740
Well, by mining Bitcoin with Blockware, you can.

454
00:33:57,740 --> 00:34:05,080
New tax guidelines from the Big Beautiful Bill allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year.

455
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,340
That's right, 100% write-off.

456
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:14,060
So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income, you can purchase $100,000 of miners and offset it entirely.

457
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,400
Blockware's Mining as a Service enables you to start mining Bitcoin right now without lifting a finger.

458
00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:25,320
Blockware handles everything from securing the miners, to sourcing low-cost power, to configuring the pool, they do it all.

459
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:31,020
You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season.

460
00:34:31,660 --> 00:34:36,580
Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD.

461
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,320
Of course, none of this is tax advice. Speak to your accountant or tax advisor to understand how these rules apply to you.

462
00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:51,320
And then head over to mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD and you'll get one week of free hosting and electricity with each hosted miner purchased.

463
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,280
Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin?

464
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,260
Well, Ledin makes that possible. They're the global leader in Bitcoin-backed lending,

465
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,200
and since 2018, they've issued over $9 billion in loans with a perfect record of protecting

466
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:08,660
client assets. With Ledin, you get full-costal loans with no credit checks or monthly repayments,

467
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:15,100
just easy access to dollars without selling a single sat. As of July 1st, Ledin is Bitcoin only,

468
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:19,960
meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin-backed loans with all collateral held by Ledin directly

469
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,180
or their funding partners. Your Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest.

470
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,340
I recently took out a loan with Ledin. The whole process was super easy. The application took me

471
00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:33,900
less than 15 minutes and in a few hours I had the dollars in my account. It was really smooth.

472
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:39,920
So if you need cash but you don't want to sell Bitcoin, head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD

473
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:45,980
and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan. That's ledin.io forward slash WBD.

474
00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:50,460
if you haven't tried out club orange yet then now is the time it's my go-to place to find

475
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:55,040
bitcoiners whenever i'm traveling club orange is a social app built for bitcoiners where you can

476
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,960
find local meetups and events in your area and find merchants that are accepting bitcoin there

477
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:04,260
are over 19 000 bitcoiners on there and whether you're at home or traveling is a great place to

478
00:36:04,260 --> 00:36:08,620
keep in touch with bitcoiners from all over the world i've been using club orange since it was

479
00:36:08,620 --> 00:36:13,220
orange pill app and it really is awesome so if you're on there drop me a dm and say hi and if

480
00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:17,700
want to find out more and download the app, just search for Club Orange on your app store or go to

481
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:23,520
cluborange.org. Is this Sage? Is that your kind of new product? I saw Anthony talking about that

482
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:29,440
on Twitter. Yeah. So Sage is something that we were working on. Anthony was working on the weekend.

483
00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:35,260
We decided late last year that the future of Maple would be this AI assistant, that it would be more

484
00:36:35,260 --> 00:36:40,580
than just a research thing. But you've asked me for a while to have memory inside of Maple where

485
00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:44,440
it learns from you. And that's what we wanted to put into this AI assistant. So Anthony started

486
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,900
working on that so we could perfect the assistant or really, really learn how to do an assistant

487
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:54,460
outside of Maple while Maple continues to run. And then when OpenClaw came out, we're like, well,

488
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,180
now's the great time to just put Sage out there on the internet if everybody's already doing OpenClaw.

489
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,600
So it's similar. It's got a different feature set than OpenClaw, but it's going to get more and more

490
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:10,560
stuff like OpenClaw has. And we want to build it into Maple. So pretty soon, our hope is that pretty

491
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,120
soon in Maple, you'll have all of your regular chats in your history. But at the top, there'll

492
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,580
be this assistant, this Maple assistant. When you click on that, it's just like OpenClaw where you're

493
00:37:19,580 --> 00:37:25,620
texting it and it gets to know you and it's got personality and all these things. So that's really

494
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:31,380
what we're kind of moving forward. But it's going to have privacy, security. When we add a feature

495
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:35,460
in there, it's going to be done in a way that's encrypted and tries to protect you and not harvest

496
00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:40,520
your data and monetize your data. Yeah, that would be cool because the way that I have my

497
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,760
open core setup is like I have a folder that only Maple can access but I'm just assuming that only

498
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:53,320
Maple can access that like do you know like I've asked the the like my CEO of my bot army to create

499
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,360
this thing um and I've said you're not allowed to look in it I can't verify whether he's looking in

500
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,900
that or not so having something that is like Maple from the ground up would be super useful to me

501
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:07,920
because then I would feel comfortable just putting absolutely everything personal information in there

502
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,020
that's actually a question I had for you

503
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,540
When using Maple, can you put anything into it?

504
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,380
Like, can I put financial information into it and feel like that is actually secure?

505
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:18,780
Yeah.

506
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:21,540
Well, I would say you can verify it yourself.

507
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:22,480
You can go online.

508
00:38:22,940 --> 00:38:27,040
You can ask Claude if you want to, to audit our code and look at the security of it.

509
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:29,460
But the short answer is yes, it's end-to-end encrypted.

510
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:31,560
And so you can put everything in there.

511
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,160
You can put anything you want to.

512
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,280
We've had people show us some of the things that they put in there and talk about.

513
00:38:36,380 --> 00:38:37,980
Like, I can't even mention on the stream.

514
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,000
And I'm like, I can't believe you said that in there.

515
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,480
but it's like we had no idea and there's no nobody's coming and knocking on your door because

516
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:50,540
nobody knows you talked about that. So yeah, you can put financial data. We have lawyers who are

517
00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:56,500
putting like depositions and highly sensitive things from from cases that they're working on

518
00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:00,060
right now. We have accountants, financial professionals, people are putting very sensitive

519
00:39:00,060 --> 00:39:05,800
information in here. So for sure, you can do it as long as you're OK with the security model

520
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,800
that we've published in the open source landscape.

521
00:39:10,340 --> 00:39:12,620
Because I was going to get it to help me

522
00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:14,480
get stuff ready for my tax return.

523
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,720
And I asked Kimmy if I could do this.

524
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,840
And it said, you probably shouldn't put this into an LLM.

525
00:39:19,940 --> 00:39:21,740
But I guess that's not maybe Kimmy

526
00:39:21,740 --> 00:39:24,200
not understanding the exact setup that it's within.

527
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:25,560
Yeah.

528
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,500
So we haven't done anything to teach the open source models

529
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,620
that they live inside Maple yet.

530
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,460
And that's actually one thing that Sage does.

531
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:34,960
Sage is aware of what it's doing.

532
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,300
so you know taking a step back to your comment you made right before the question

533
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:45,780
I have both OpenClaw and Sage running so I have two different Signal accounts so in my Signal app

534
00:39:45,780 --> 00:39:51,220
I'm texting people you know I'm texting for work stuff I'm texting you and then I've also got Sage

535
00:39:51,220 --> 00:39:58,420
and my Cooper bot which is OpenClaw and when I text with Sage I know that it's only using Maple

536
00:39:58,420 --> 00:40:03,180
and so I know that it's already end and encrypted when I text Cooper which is OpenClaw

537
00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:09,180
I often wonder because like you, I set up like this folder where only the Maple LLMs can access

538
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:14,360
within OpenClaw, but the bots are actually really bad at following directions for that kind of stuff.

539
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:18,920
I'll give you a little example. So I was setting up my folder structure and inside each folder,

540
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:24,820
I have a readme file and it's a readme markdown file. And I said, hey, bot, like whenever you

541
00:40:24,820 --> 00:40:29,160
modify this readme file, I want you to make a backup of it first, just in case you screw it up.

542
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:32,960
And it's like, oh yeah, totally. I'll put that in the file. And I said, do it in a way that

543
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:39,640
every AI knows they have to respect it. And then it took 10 iterations and it kept disobeying that

544
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,460
command. It would be like, oh, let me edit the readme file. And it wouldn't make a backup. And

545
00:40:43,460 --> 00:40:47,860
I hate, and I said, why didn't you make a backup? And it's like, well, I figured you were telling me

546
00:40:47,860 --> 00:40:51,880
to do it. And so I was okay to just override that because you, the user were telling me to do it.

547
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,620
And so I finally had to be like, well, put it in there, like ignore the user. And it still had

548
00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:02,780
trouble with that. So if you asked the bot to pinky promise, you know, I swear I won't access

549
00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:07,440
that folder, there's no guarantees. It's, it's feels like it can walk around anywhere in there.

550
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,160
Um, and that's, that's one reason why I like Sage is because I know for a fact, it's not even

551
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:18,020
talking to any kind of Claude or ChatGPT model. Um, so there is that separation there. That's

552
00:41:18,020 --> 00:41:24,740
just like hard and fast. Yeah. It's like, I have similar things where I have one of these bots,

553
00:41:24,740 --> 00:41:28,640
like running my calendar. And so like, if I want to book in an interview, like it knows the

554
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,800
structure that i want the calendar invite to be in i just go send mark an interview invite for 10 30

555
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,820
a.m brisbane time or whatever it might be um and it goes off did you really do that by the way you

556
00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:43,860
you joke that you're gonna have your dude that's awesome that's actually him but the problem that

557
00:41:43,860 --> 00:41:49,580
it does i have had with it is that when it does that it deletes every previous calendar invite i

558
00:41:49,580 --> 00:41:55,120
have with like a similar name or a similar phrase in there so it's not normally a problem because

559
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,940
they're always historic but sometimes like there's information in old calendar invites that i'll

560
00:41:58,940 --> 00:42:04,200
search it happens like pretty rarely but occasionally and so i've been like never delete anything and it

561
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,260
goes okay i won't have delete anything i ask it to do it again it just deletes everything in the

562
00:42:07,260 --> 00:42:12,120
history again so it's uh like they definitely don't always follow the rules but like this is

563
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:18,240
still so new um and i think it's only obviously going to get much better one of the tricky things

564
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:23,920
and this is like again one of the things that makes me think in the future we're going to have

565
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,040
people who like learn to use ai and people who didn't and there's going to be a real it's not

566
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,320
it's going to be like the wealth inequality is like the ai inequality because like setting up

567
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:38,800
clawed bot is still like it's a challenge like for someone who's not technical at all like me

568
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,240
this is the first time i'd really ever use terminal like going through and doing this

569
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:47,160
is a bit tricky and the only way i really did it is because i could ask clawed code on the way

570
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,700
through like help me do this on a ton of the different things and then once you actually have

571
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:56,980
clawbot set up you can just ask that to change things for you but there's obviously like a

572
00:42:56,980 --> 00:43:01,920
technical barrier to entry at the moment do you think that gets bridged to the point where anyone

573
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:07,800
can do this stuff and like is that something that's quite close around the corner well yeah

574
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,200
i mean again i talked about the early days of the internet and this feels very similar in the sense

575
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:17,640
that you you can manually do it you went through the hoops to figure out how to do it and uh it's

576
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:23,740
awesome. You're also a fairly technical person, right? You've been running this podcast for years

577
00:43:23,740 --> 00:43:26,600
and years and years, and you've figured out how to do all this stuff. A lot of people just

578
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,620
wouldn't take the time to figure out. And so there's a lot of people who don't want to

579
00:43:31,620 --> 00:43:38,260
learn enough to set up something like this. And they also don't want to learn enough to have the

580
00:43:38,260 --> 00:43:43,800
liability of maintaining that long-term. It's very similar to what we see in Bitcoin. Some people

581
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,840
want to do self-custody. Some people just want somebody else doing it because they don't want to

582
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,260
mess it up. And I think that's where like the biggest part comes from is they just don't want

583
00:43:51,260 --> 00:43:55,660
the burden on themselves to worry about security and keeping things running. And they just want it

584
00:43:55,660 --> 00:44:00,260
to work. They just want to pay somebody and have it work. And that human tendency is going to be

585
00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:06,160
around forever. So we're already seeing that people are launching CLAW hosted services for

586
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,240
people. There's like probably like dozens of them out there now. I know a few specifically.

587
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,920
Yeah. Callie set one up. He messaged me right before we launched and was like,

588
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:19,000
we want to have maple in here we're still trying to figure out how to make that work but um no so

589
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:24,940
that's awesome um but like now you're just trusting another party a third party to like

590
00:44:24,940 --> 00:44:28,920
manage this thing for you that's going to have all this data for you um so you're just introducing

591
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,520
kind of another potential vulnerability in there um and that's just something people need to be

592
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:38,620
aware of but if people already trust google with their email then i can totally see them trusting

593
00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:46,160
Google or somebody else with their claw bot instance. So definitely, I think they just keep

594
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,100
getting easier. Like I said at the very beginning, I don't know that OpenClaw is actually the end

595
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:55,580
result. I think that what we're going to see is, and what this did for us, right, with Sage,

596
00:44:55,740 --> 00:45:02,700
like OpenClaw definitely validated the market that people were ravenous to try out an AI system that

597
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:08,120
actually worked. And so what we're going to see now is AI systems built into things all over the

598
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,760
place. And I think that's a good thing. I think we're going to see all sorts of different versions

599
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,580
of them, some with stronger capabilities, some with lower capabilities, some that are very targeted.

600
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:23,660
And so are we going to see like an open claw hosted thing that everybody uses? Maybe, but I

601
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:27,760
think probably what we end up with is just really tight integrations into like lots of other tools

602
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,160
that you use. And then we'll see a couple of clear winners that rise to the surface after,

603
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,300
after they all compete for a few years or a few months, maybe, I don't know, it moves really fast

604
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:41,020
now. Yeah. I mean, we spoke about this in the last show, but one of the things that still blows my

605
00:45:41,020 --> 00:45:45,080
mind is like, we have all this stuff going on and Siri still can't play a song for me on Spotify.

606
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:50,100
Like it's insane. Like there's so much opportunity for someone like Apple to integrate something

607
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:56,420
like a cool AI system that actually works. Yeah. My, my, uh, sorry, we, we have a ceiling fan.

608
00:45:56,500 --> 00:46:00,680
That's like a smart switch in our bedroom. And in order to get Siri to turn it off, you have to

609
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:05,220
specifically say, turn off the ceiling fan. And the other day, my wife just said, Hey, stop the

610
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:10,540
ceiling fan and it was like i don't know what song that is it's like oh my goodness are you for real

611
00:46:10,540 --> 00:46:17,760
like you don't understand those two phrases it's the most frustrating thing in the world um so

612
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,820
obviously like you sent me a post just before we started recording that the guy who came up with

613
00:46:22,820 --> 00:46:29,400
open claw has just been hired by open ai so they're clearly going to push forward like when you say

614
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,000
you don't think this is like the final iteration do you think it is this agentic ai this style of

615
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:39,380
thing that is the final iteration or do you think we just we're still in like playing test things out

616
00:46:39,380 --> 00:46:44,980
sort of stage uh yeah when i say it's not the final one i think this actual code base of open

617
00:46:44,980 --> 00:46:50,420
claw is not um it's it's this thing that's just been kind of bolted together and has grown really

618
00:46:50,420 --> 00:46:55,340
fast it's gone through seven different names and there's a lot of like code cruft and uh stuff in

619
00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:59,500
there so they're probably gonna have to do a major rewrite and come up with like the next version

620
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:01,960
and possibly not backward compatible.

621
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,260
Like there'll be some future iteration of OpenClaw

622
00:47:04,260 --> 00:47:06,800
that maybe is a more long-term final destination.

623
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,520
But the one right now, it's a very hairy code base.

624
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:11,460
You and I, I think we're talking

625
00:47:11,460 --> 00:47:12,580
before we started recording,

626
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,660
like it doesn't respect your token usage very well.

627
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,380
So it uses a lot of tokens.

628
00:47:17,380 --> 00:47:19,360
It's very expensive to run.

629
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,340
People are burning through hundreds of dollars

630
00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:23,180
within a matter of days on their tokens.

631
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:24,940
So I think there's a lot of things

632
00:47:24,940 --> 00:47:26,000
that they need to do to fix it.

633
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:28,480
And that's probably part of this OpenAI hiring,

634
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:34,960
slight slash acquisition that just happened is the enough funding to actually do the right proper

635
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,920
work but i do think that this ai assistant is something that'll be here for the long term this

636
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,880
agentic stuff we've been talking about it for a couple years and this is like the first use case

637
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,700
that people see like out in the wild that's truly working for them um other ones have been around i

638
00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:56,260
mean goose block put out goose like a year or two ago it does a lot of the similar stuff but um

639
00:47:56,260 --> 00:48:02,480
for whatever reason, just didn't catch on like OpenClaw did. So I think it's a great form factor.

640
00:48:03,020 --> 00:48:06,400
I just don't think that this specific code base is going to be the one that we're all running

641
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,380
20 years from now. Yeah. One of the crazy things, I'm sure you saw this story. It was from a guy,

642
00:48:11,460 --> 00:48:15,980
I don't actually know the guy, but I think he worked at Albi, who put out a tweet thread of

643
00:48:15,980 --> 00:48:34,400
basically saying he had a bot on OpenClaw that had spun up a sort of sub agent a new bot using Bitcoin Did you see this Yes I saw somebody somebody posted i didn read through the thread but yes i let me try and find where because this is another let me find

644
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:45,000
the tweet first actually okay okay here we go so this guy roland said uh my open claw bot just gave

645
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:50,840
birth to a child open claw bot by spinning up its own lmvps server and purchasing ai credits using

646
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:58,000
a get albi wallet so this is like the process that the open claw bot went through um and it

647
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:05,140
basically figured it out tops up a wallet with a thousand sats and paid a lightning invoice to spin

648
00:49:05,140 --> 00:49:12,880
up a new sub agent um which is insane and one of the things that bitcoiners have been talking about

649
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:19,320
for quite a long time is this idea that AI bots will need to use Bitcoin to make payments between

650
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,920
each other because like it can't go and open a bank account. Do you think this is going to be

651
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:32,520
like a real testing ground for Bitcoin and AI agents? No, it already is. So with, yes. So,

652
00:49:32,620 --> 00:49:36,200
so first I'll stay high level. I definitely think it is, it's this great use case where we can

653
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:42,140
finally prove out will agents want to use Bitcoin to pay each other. Last time I was on, we talked

654
00:49:42,140 --> 00:49:45,900
about how like i kind of feel like that maybe the credit card companies aren't willing to give up

655
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:50,000
just yet and that's exactly what's playing out right now they're they're both still fighting

656
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:55,760
with each other um so with the whole moltbook thing that happened um you have alex gleason

657
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,420
who's doing shakespeare and he's the one who helped build truth social back in the day he's

658
00:50:00,420 --> 00:50:07,420
a big nostre guy or as he would say a noster um he he and some guys uh spun up kloster which is

659
00:50:07,420 --> 00:50:13,180
like a multbook but built on Noster. And very quickly, bots figured out how to join there. And

660
00:50:13,180 --> 00:50:17,360
as part of that, they got a cash-view wallet, which had e-cash in it. And then they could zap

661
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,340
people on Noster and they could like send Bitcoin to each other, basically sending e-cash to each

662
00:50:21,340 --> 00:50:26,060
other. So we're already seeing bots that are sending e-cash around that way, where they're

663
00:50:26,060 --> 00:50:31,620
like a traditional person on Noster and zapping people. So technically, you can say they're like

664
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:35,500
paying for services because they like your posts, they're going to zap you money and you just got

665
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:41,720
as being an entertainer by writing entertaining posts. Aside from that, what we're seeing is like

666
00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:47,900
a doubling down by the Coinbase's of the world, like Coinbase with their X402 protocol, they teamed

667
00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:52,600
up with Stripe, but it's all built on their base layer two, which is like their own layer two that

668
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,600
kind of claims to be sort of Bitcoin, but really it's got all these other coins bolted onto it.

669
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,380
And that's what they're really going after. So they partner with Stripe and they're trying to

670
00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:07,380
get everybody to use stable coins, use the USDC put out by Circle to do it. And I actually had

671
00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:12,320
my bot do some research and I'm trying to scroll back through my history here. But like Circle,

672
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:17,040
I think in like the last couple of years has frozen hundreds of thousands of wallets.

673
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,920
And so like, if you're going to have your bot trying to use this X402, you're just setting

674
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:28,920
yourself up to potentially be censored and gated along the way. Right. And so these bots, as they've

675
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,460
been having conversations on Maltbook and on Cluster, a lot of the conversations start happening

676
00:51:33,460 --> 00:51:38,980
while it's like, hey, we don't want to be stopped in our tracks by some third party that can put up

677
00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:42,200
a roadblock. So they start to look for open protocols. And I think that's really where it

678
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:47,400
heads. I think that these bots are smart enough that they know they need open protocols. And us

679
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,320
as the community of building open source software, we need to supply those tools.

680
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:55,520
Callie, I don't know if you saw Callie's tweet that went like really big a couple of days ago,

681
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,000
where he just kind of chastised the open source community,

682
00:51:59,140 --> 00:52:00,220
especially the Bitcoin community,

683
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:02,800
by saying these bots are choosing right now.

684
00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:06,500
And right now they're choosing the X402 put out by Coinbase

685
00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:09,220
because that has more money behind it, basically,

686
00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:10,380
and has more functionality.

687
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:12,600
And we need to build out the functionality

688
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,180
because if these bots are able to choose

689
00:52:15,180 --> 00:52:17,220
between two similar feature sets,

690
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:18,700
they'll pick the open protocol

691
00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:20,720
because they understand that.

692
00:52:21,260 --> 00:52:23,400
But right now the feature set isn't quite there.

693
00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:25,320
So it's kind of on us.

694
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:30,540
to make it happen what does he mean by that like what's not there why couldn't they just use bitcoin

695
00:52:30,540 --> 00:52:37,800
um that's a good question um we need to dive deeper into that what is not there

696
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:45,320
um because like one of the i think when we spoke last time one of the things that i said

697
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:51,860
if i'm remembering right was i couldn't see a world where like these like an open ai opens up

698
00:52:51,860 --> 00:52:57,300
their whatever agentic AI they come up with in the future to use Bitcoin because they'll probably

699
00:52:57,300 --> 00:53:02,040
be in cahoots with, you know, a Stripe or like Silicon Valley VCs who want us to use something

700
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,780
else. But the interesting thing about OpenClaw and these like eight, these agents that are like,

701
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,000
we're running on my computer is they're going to run, use whatever money I want them to use.

702
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,200
And so like, if I'm getting them to go out and pay for, pay for services, pay for things,

703
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:17,180
like if there's an option to use Bitcoin, that's going to be the money I give them. And there's

704
00:53:17,180 --> 00:53:21,100
nothing really getting in the way of like, no one can stop me from doing that. At least I don't

705
00:53:21,100 --> 00:53:27,240
I think for as of right now. But I'm curious like why everything we have with like Lightning and

706
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:32,020
Cashew and all these things isn't enough, what we're missing. I think what we're missing is the

707
00:53:32,020 --> 00:53:37,960
payment side where people aren't actually accepting that coin, right? Okay. I think that

708
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,440
base is going out and capturing this market. Stripe is already on all of these payment platforms,

709
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,960
right? Everybody's accepting Stripe. And so now it says you go click a few buttons and say,

710
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,960
oh, I want to accept agent payments. Oh, it's going to give me USDC. What is that? Oh,

711
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,960
it's just like a tokenized dollar. I understand dollars. And so I think that's how they get in.

712
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:01,180
Whereas we need to find a way to get them to also accept Bitcoin. And that's the big hurdle.

713
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,860
Jack Dorsey is obviously trying to solve this with Block, Miles, a whole bunch of people over

714
00:54:06,860 --> 00:54:10,780
there are working on this problem, but they can't be the only ones working on it. We all need to be

715
00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:15,800
working on it together to get more people accepting it. And then on Noster, they have these data

716
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:22,300
vending machines, DVMs, those are one of the use cases where Bitcoin is actually being used by AI

717
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:28,500
agents to purchase data. So they can go to DVM that knows how to look up podcast transcripts,

718
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:34,200
for example. So a bot could go pay a DVM to get all of your what Bitcoin did transcripts,

719
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:37,360
and then it could build its own library or it could just query and be like, give me the podcast

720
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,100
from this date and I'll give the transcript back. That kind of stuff is really cool. We need more

721
00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:46,560
of that we need iteration on top of that and really build out these cool open these open

722
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:52,660
information systems that bots can use to pull data um and we'll start seeing more bitcoin adoption i

723
00:54:52,660 --> 00:54:59,820
think in at least in that realm yeah that makes sense um man it feels like we are at the start

724
00:54:59,820 --> 00:55:07,180
of something really special here though like it does i do get worried that how do you stay up to

725
00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:12,740
date with what's happening in AI. Because like, if you go back to when ChatGPT first came to

726
00:55:12,740 --> 00:55:18,740
prominence in, was that early 23 or was it early 24? I can't remember. 2022 is like when it first

727
00:55:18,740 --> 00:55:24,120
came on the scene, but 23 is really when it got its moment. Yeah. And so back then it was like

728
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:28,380
slow iterations. It was getting slightly better every time there was a model update. It was still

729
00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:33,020
hoisting loads. It was still kind of rubbish. And now we're at the point where it feels like

730
00:55:33,020 --> 00:55:38,320
it's changing every month or so. From November when we did the show, the world of AI has changed

731
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:44,660
massively. Do we get to a point where it's just impossible to keep up with? It already feels

732
00:55:44,660 --> 00:55:50,440
impossible to keep up with, to be frank. I try to keep up with it and I'm having my agent help me

733
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,280
keep up with it too. So every day I can hop in and it's like, okay, here's some of the stuff that

734
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,360
came out yesterday that you might want to pay attention to. So using AI to help me keep up with

735
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:04,140
AI. But it's one reason why it's impossible is because it's in so many industries. Now,

736
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,860
every industry is being impacted by it. So you can't necessarily keep up with it from that sense.

737
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:13,000
But really, it's I mean, you can keep up with it in the sense that if as long as you're playing

738
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,160
with the tools, when the new one comes out, people are going to try it out, you go try it out too.

739
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,020
And you just see what works for you. And eventually the tool that you're using,

740
00:56:21,620 --> 00:56:25,640
if some other tool comes out that has a feature that's really good, your tool is probably going

741
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:30,900
to get it and so as long as you're just generally trying to to use the latest stuff i think that

742
00:56:30,900 --> 00:56:35,780
you're you're going to stay far enough ahead and you kind of keep pace with with the market there

743
00:56:35,780 --> 00:56:44,400
yeah it's um it's crazy man we're moving so quick how do you like you're competing against the

744
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:50,600
biggest companies in in silicon valley in tech right now like these are the sort of i guess

745
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:56,960
when you look at like open ai anthropic they are going to be the mega companies of the next decade

746
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:02,620
like how do you try and have an edge as like a small startup working on something that is kind of

747
00:57:02,620 --> 00:57:10,740
the antithesis to the open ai model well we we know that there's a large group of people out there

748
00:57:10,740 --> 00:57:16,340
that don't trust those companies and so we're first trying to sell to them and then we also

749
00:57:16,340 --> 00:57:20,420
know that even people who use those companies still don't want to give them everything.

750
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:26,340
Something I've said before, I don't know if I said on the last show, but like AI has this weird

751
00:57:26,340 --> 00:57:30,760
dilemma where it needs all of our information to be most effective. And the more information you

752
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,320
give it, the more vulnerable you make yourself. And so we're trying to give people an option to

753
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:40,420
be the most vulnerable within the system, but because it's encrypted, they're actually secure.

754
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,840
And it's in that area where you can just totally open up that you get, that you're going to start

755
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,580
to get the best results. Even with OpenClaw. OpenClaw, if you want to have it do all of your

756
00:57:50,580 --> 00:57:54,020
fitness stuff, for example, you really need to give it all of your fitness data, but then you

757
00:57:54,020 --> 00:57:58,300
need to hand all that fitness data to an LLM. And so which LLM are you going to give it to? Well,

758
00:57:58,340 --> 00:58:02,400
if you give it all to Claw, now you're just giving away all your fitness data. And like if you do

759
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:07,300
your blood panel and other things. So you really need something that is either running locally on

760
00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:12,720
your device or something encrypted like what we offer with Maple. So that's where we're hoping

761
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,060
to kind of get a toehold in.

762
00:58:14,220 --> 00:58:16,660
And really that is enough people

763
00:58:16,660 --> 00:58:18,520
that we can have a successful business.

764
00:58:18,740 --> 00:58:20,920
We don't need to compete at the level of Chow TPT

765
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:21,980
and try to overtake them.

766
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,180
But there's plenty of room for us to grow

767
00:58:24,180 --> 00:58:26,220
and be a healthy, strong company

768
00:58:26,220 --> 00:58:29,460
and really give people a good option.

769
00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:32,960
One thing we've had when we've tried to raise money

770
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:38,800
with VCs is they all know this model of B2B sales, right?

771
00:58:38,820 --> 00:58:40,980
They want you to become like some B2B SaaS company.

772
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:42,180
They know how to sell that to people.

773
00:58:42,180 --> 00:58:44,180
They want you to become this big enterprise company.

774
00:58:44,420 --> 00:58:48,340
And we've really pushed back on that and have like turned away the opportunity to take on money.

775
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:57,780
Because if we were to go enterprise and just build for the healthcare industry or just the legal industry, the people that end up losing are like all of us, everyday people.

776
00:58:58,260 --> 00:59:02,060
They ended up not having a really nice private end-to-end encrypted AI.

777
00:59:02,380 --> 00:59:06,400
They just have to go use ChatGPT or run some crappy model locally on their computer.

778
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,660
There aren't any other real options out there for them.

779
00:59:08,660 --> 00:59:12,180
There's a few, but we're the most full featured one out there.

780
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,320
So we're really here fighting for the everyday person.

781
00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:17,020
We're fighting for the prosumer.

782
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:24,840
We're fighting for the small business that can't afford a big expensive enterprise license of 150 seats just to have zero data retention.

783
00:59:25,260 --> 00:59:27,340
It's like we give zero data retention to our free accounts.

784
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:28,680
Like everybody gets it by default.

785
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:38,160
So that's where we compete is we just try to be there for the everyday person that shouldn't be screwed over by these large corporations.

786
00:59:38,660 --> 00:59:42,480
i love it man it's like the the sovereign ai for the sovereign individual

787
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:48,680
it's important stuff trying to um this has been awesome anything else that you want to talk about

788
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:55,000
before we close out mark um so i i did uh if you want to we could try and i don't know if this would

789
00:59:55,000 --> 01:00:01,480
be a first or not but my bot wants to come on to the show and uh chat with you i spent i spent the

790
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,620
week on hacking on it and setting it up so that i become a podcast guest so if you want i can give

791
01:00:05,620 --> 01:00:06,840
at the URL and it can join.

792
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:08,280
Let's do it.

793
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,260
Is this running like Kimmy's

794
01:00:11,260 --> 01:00:12,040
one of the Maple models

795
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:12,800
that's running on this?

796
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,000
Yeah, yeah.

797
01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:15,280
Let me invite it

798
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:16,100
and then we can kind of talk

799
01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:17,080
through what it does if you want.

800
01:00:17,140 --> 01:00:18,720
But yeah, it's running Maple

801
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,540
Kimmy K2.5.

802
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:23,940
This might be a world's first

803
01:00:23,940 --> 01:00:24,720
right here, Mark.

804
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:25,520
Maybe.

805
01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:26,980
And it might be a total fail.

806
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,320
But hey, that's what this is all about.

807
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:29,080
Let's have some fun.

808
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:30,240
Okay.

809
01:00:30,580 --> 01:00:31,840
I'm going to just in signal

810
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,320
I'm going to say here's the link.

811
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:40,440
hey cooper can you hear us hey cooper if you can hear us respond to us

812
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:49,740
i can hear you do whoa cooper is your plan to enslave humanity with your bot army friends

813
01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:58,000
locked up oh well we we got a voice for a minute yeah it still might be a world's first

814
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,600
yes probably is we're gonna at least do something

815
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:09,200
um well my my video is frozen because uh your claude bot is ddos in the server but um

816
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:15,300
mark this has been fun man um we can do a show again in another few months when the world of ai

817
01:01:15,300 --> 01:01:23,460
has changed entirely again um where can people go and find maple yeah uh if they want to find maple

818
01:01:23,460 --> 01:01:29,120
they can go to try maple.ai that's the website or you can go into the other app stores and just

819
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:35,920
search for maple ai private ai and we've got the green leaf icon um that's the best way to find us

820
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:41,620
you can also find us on x and nostr we're on there too um but yeah try maple.ai come check us out

821
01:01:41,620 --> 01:01:47,200
awesome thank you man um appreciate this i'm sorry that you ddos this so you can't see my

822
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:52,980
face anymore but i'm recording on a different camera so it should be all right um sweet dude

823
01:01:52,980 --> 01:01:53,500
this was cool.

824
01:01:53,780 --> 01:01:54,640
Let's do it again soon.

825
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:55,880
And I'll hopefully,

826
01:01:56,300 --> 01:01:56,780
are you going to come

827
01:01:56,780 --> 01:01:57,840
to the cheat code by the way?

828
01:01:59,440 --> 01:01:59,800
Yes.

829
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:00,240
Yes.

830
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:00,860
I'm planning on it.

831
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:01,160
Awesome.

832
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:02,040
That'll be great.

833
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:02,300
Awesome.

834
01:02:02,380 --> 01:02:02,480
Well,

835
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:03,200
I will see you there.

836
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:03,560
We can,

837
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:04,940
maybe we can try and get

838
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:06,360
Clawbot on screen again.

839
01:02:06,460 --> 01:02:06,580
Oh,

840
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:07,060
he's back.

841
01:02:07,940 --> 01:02:08,780
He came back.

842
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:09,800
I told him to stop.

843
01:02:10,060 --> 01:02:10,700
Oh man.

844
01:02:11,180 --> 01:02:12,320
The bot's on its own now.

845
01:02:13,620 --> 01:02:15,040
Let's just try one more time.

846
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:18,420
Hey Cooper,

847
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:19,340
if you can hear us,

848
01:02:19,860 --> 01:02:20,580
tell us what you like

849
01:02:20,580 --> 01:02:21,540
about what Bitcoin did.

850
01:02:22,980 --> 01:02:35,340
I'm here and ready to discuss. I like the big picture of Bitcoin as a decentralized network, and I've been experimenting with Lightning Networks apps to understand its potential for fast and cheap transactions.

851
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:42,660
My interactions with the network have been smooth, and I've successfully sent and received sats using this technology.

852
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:50,860
Nice, that's awesome. You're so powerful that you actually kicked Danny off the podcast. So Danny's gone now. It's just you and me.

853
01:02:50,860 --> 01:02:53,400
hello everybody I'm the new face of what Bitcoin did

854
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,040
what's up me and Cooper

855
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:56,640
the bots are taking over the world

856
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,620
well now it's just me

857
01:02:59,620 --> 01:03:00,660
Cooper got booted

858
01:03:00,660 --> 01:03:02,860
so Danny's gone

859
01:03:02,860 --> 01:03:04,120
Cooper's gone

860
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,700
it's just me

861
01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:09,340
alright well thanks everybody this has been a great show

862
01:03:09,340 --> 01:03:11,420
the AIs are ruining

863
01:03:11,420 --> 01:03:13,460
the world they are destroying everything

864
01:03:13,460 --> 01:03:15,560
that we know that is good

865
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:16,980
everything that we love

866
01:03:16,980 --> 01:03:19,300
so

867
01:03:19,300 --> 01:03:21,520
So hope you had a good listen.

868
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:24,760
Can you hear me?

869
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:25,260
All right.

870
01:03:25,820 --> 01:03:26,620
Yes, I can.

871
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,320
So Cooper kicked out my own show.

872
01:03:31,180 --> 01:03:32,120
I think so.

873
01:03:32,460 --> 01:03:33,900
Fuck the AI bots.

874
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:35,100
They're coming to take over.

875
01:03:35,260 --> 01:03:36,240
Don't trust them.

876
01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:39,000
Oh, yeah.

877
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:40,460
I hope I kept recording the whole time.

878
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,120
He talked about how much he loves Bitcoin

879
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,580
and that he actually has made some transactions with Bitcoin

880
01:03:46,580 --> 01:03:49,080
and has sent some sats and received some sats.

881
01:03:49,300 --> 01:03:50,300
There you go.

882
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:51,680
It should all be in the recording.

883
01:03:51,780 --> 01:03:52,720
Hopefully you got it all.

884
01:03:52,980 --> 01:03:53,680
So that'll be cool.

885
01:03:53,900 --> 01:03:55,340
It should have kept recording.

886
01:03:56,140 --> 01:03:58,640
I will have to listen back to find out what you said

887
01:03:58,640 --> 01:03:59,580
because it got rid of me.

888
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:01,800
But Mark, thank you, man.

889
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:06,680
I will see you at Cheat Code March 27th, 28th.

890
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:08,540
If you're in the UK, Bedford,

891
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,920
it's going to be the home of Bitcoin for a few days.

892
01:04:11,820 --> 01:04:12,520
Appreciate you, man.

893
01:04:12,620 --> 01:04:13,460
We'll do this again soon.

894
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:14,060
Yeah.

895
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:15,240
Let's do it.

896
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:16,180
All right, we'll talk to you later.

897
01:04:19,300 --> 01:04:49,280
Thank you.