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I do think that we are underestimating the power of culture, you know, winning the day when it comes to Bitcoin.

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I think we lose all of that if it's just about number go up.

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I hope that the U.S. is able to tack back a little bit and, you know, respect, you know, constitutional rights for privacy,

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because that's how you know the most about somebody is by figuring out what they spend their money on.

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It's going to be really hard. I think that that's the final boss.

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These programs are woefully inefficient. The cartels still have big banks banking them. It's ridiculous.

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Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and in every bull market there's always a new wave of investors

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and with it a flood of new companies, new products and new promises.

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But if you've been around long enough you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them.

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Some cut corners, take risks with your money or just disappear.

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That's why when it comes to buying Bitcoin the only exchange I recommend is River.

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They deeply care about doing things right for their clients and are built to last with security

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00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:59,980
and transparency at their core. With River you have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin

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is held in multi-sig cold storage and it's the only Bitcoin-only exchange in the US with proof

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00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,120
of reserves. There really is no better place to buy Bitcoin, so to open an account today,

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head over to river.com forward slash WBD and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy.

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That's river.com forward slash WBD. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at

18
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,940
the same time? Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can. New tax guidelines from

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00:01:24,940 --> 00:01:29,260
the Big Beautiful Bill allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware

20
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in a single tax year. That's right, 100% write-off. If you have 100k in capital gains or income,

21
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22
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,600
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23
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,080
from securing the miners to sourcing low-cost power to configuring the mining pool, they do it

24
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,680
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26
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,260
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Of course none of this is tax advice. Speak with Blockware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD.

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Cheers!

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Welcome to PubKey.

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Thank you man.

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My name's Thomas.

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How are you doing?

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Your name's Thomas.

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Yeah.

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The proprietor of this joint.

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Yes.

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Do you want me to turn this off or do you want the background music on?

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We should definitely turn it off.

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I'll turn it off.

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Yeah, thank you.

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I like the really old school radio, though.

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It's good.

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Yeah.

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You've been quoted on this show more than anyone else, I think, at this point.

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Really?

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At least five times.

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It's my favorite quote in Bitcoin, which is,

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we're all going to be rich and depressed because the project failed.

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Well, you want to be on a boat if that's the case.

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Tell me.

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It's better than being poor and depressed, I suppose.

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That's true.

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That's very true.

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What do you mean?

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Explain the point.

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so um it's funny i've gotten i've had a lot of people were talking about that in oslo um during

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the uh the freedom forum um that came up when we were having uh just some beers and peter was there

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so that was i think you me peter um jamie mcavity and marty bentz yep in austin yeah it was in no

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it was in fort worth fort worth yeah um and i forget exactly what we were talking about i think

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it was like ordinals, you know, mempools. It was a mining show, I think. But yeah, I kind of threw

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like a stink bomb into the conversation and said, do you think that, you know, the price of Bitcoin

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continues to just rip with like ETFs and things like that. But the project, the underpinnings of

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the project and the promise and the potential fail. What percentage likelihood do you think

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that is? I think very high. I agree. This is one of my like biggest concerns about Bitcoin is that

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is not really being used as freedom money by many people anymore.

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No, there are edge cases.

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I think HRF does a really good job highlighting cases

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where this does make a lot of sense as freedom money.

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And I think the underlying principles are definitely still there.

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But particularly around some of the core debate that we're seeing,

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and then also just diving into the history of the internet

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and what happens with IP

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and removing some privacy preserving features very early on.

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You see some of that stuff being reflected in, you know,

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history sort of rhyming with Bitcoin.

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And it's also the use cases, right?

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Number go up is great.

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That's a marketing thing for the most part.

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And you hope that people that benefit from the number go up,

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reinvest and really help drive some of the founding principles

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that were very important in the early days

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when you had like the cypherpunks into the libertarian

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cohorts in the early days, focusing on being your own bank and self-sovereignty and privacy

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preserving technologies. We're just not there for it right now, it seems like. With a lot of

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the Bitcoin treasuries, the public Bitcoin mining companies, the ETFs, number go up is definitely,

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I think, getting too much of the airtime. And it makes sense. Everybody likes making money.

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Everyone likes being right about it as well with an investment thesis and Bitcoiners that, you know, have poured a lot of time and energy into this thing for, you know, five or 10 years.

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There's also fatigue that sets in.

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Like it's one catastrophe after another, whether it's a New York Times article or it's a fork war or something like that.

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A pretend debate.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's rough.

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It can be exhausting.

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So I think a lot of those people that were some of the real champions of the self-sovereignty side of things for Bitcoin are either burned out or they've moved on to other things.

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Each new class comes with pluses and minuses.

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I don't know.

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You're kind of like the old man on the porch, like yelling at the kids.

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Kids don't get it these days.

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And that's just going to happen with any new technology.

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You have different cultures and different communities.

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I half agree with Shinobi that Bitcoin culture doesn't exist.

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I think it does exist.

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It's just very fractured, and it comes from lots of different perspectives.

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There's not one homogeneous Bitcoin culture or community.

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But the older generations seem to care about these things a lot more than the new generations.

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And you also have state-level attacks.

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You have regulatory attacks, AML, KYC, the attack on Samurai, Tornado Cash, which I guess

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is Bitcoin adjacent.

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And I'm blanking on the other one.

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That was a big one.

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Wasabi?

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Yeah, there's Wasabi.

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There was the mixer, BTC Fog.

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Roman, I think, is still sort of in trial limbo.

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But we'll see how it plays out.

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Well, he got convicted, I think.

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Yeah, I think so.

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And now he's waiting for appeal.

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Yes.

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It's funny that you say every new class comes with its trade-offs.

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So if you go back to, I don't know what you'd call the 2017 class,

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because everyone there was the ICO crew who then ended up becoming Bitcoiners.

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Yeah, but that was the start of the real Bitcoin toxic maxi crew as well.

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True, in response to all the ICO bullshit.

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Yeah, that drove a real hardening of the Bitcoin community in a way as well.

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They had been in it long enough.

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They were paying attention to the block size wars,

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which ultimately came down to a social vector

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that won that day and an economic vector.

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But that was a strong hardening.

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And then in 2020, you had the COVID class.

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I feel that's almost like the digital gold class.

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Yes, I think so.

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So I don't know who the first person to really say this was,

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but I think VJ Boyer Party did a good,

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like he was kind of the big instrumental part

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of that sort of narrative with bullish case for Bitcoin.

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And I was actually having this conversation with him.

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And I feel like I understand why he says that.

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And I love Vijay, so I'm not having a go here.

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But I feel like that narrative is sometimes misleading

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and potentially like undersells what Bitcoin truly is.

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It's almost like being like a plane is a flying horse.

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Like it does have the properties of gold

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and it is better than gold in a lot of ways,

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but like it's not all it can do.

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And I feel like that has kind of led to this narrative

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where Bitcoin's only a store of value.

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The reason it's better than gold

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is you don't have to chip some off to buy a beer, right?

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You don't have to shave it at the bar.

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Like, you know, it's cross-border,

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it's instantaneous, it has all the properties of modern money with the properties of gold over the

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years. So it does leave the second bid out too frequently when people sell it to other people

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like gold. And Novogratz has been doing this for a long time. I think Paul Tudor Jones has been

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doing this for a long time. We have a lot of gold bugs. I think Trace Mayer started with a gold blog

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and then discovered Bitcoin and saw that it was superior technology. But they leave out the

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monetary aspects of gold when they're typically talking about it just as a sort of value.

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Yeah, I totally agree.

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But then, like, what is the new class?

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I don't think we really have one.

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I think the new class is the microstrategy class.

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

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It's the sailor stance.

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Yeah.

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You know, people that are sort of championing these Bitcoin treasuries.

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And, you know, it does make sense, especially given the geopolitical backdrop, inflation,

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you know, the macro picture that we're looking at.

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I understand why these companies are doing these things, but I haven't seen a lot of

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these companies orange pilling people, right? How many people are running a node or even have a

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hardware wallet after getting into it through MicroStrategy? It kind of has some like Wall

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Street bets vibes to it, you know, like, you know, GameStop and AMC. And this system's wrong. And,

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you know, these players are going to be successful in the system because it's wrong.

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We'll see how all the treasuries deal with short sellers and things like that. But, you know,

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it'll be an interesting battle but they're not really diving into the like core tenants of what

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got bitcoin to the point where it's interesting for the companies yeah um you know to sailor's

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credit micro strategy strategies credit you know they hosted um op return uh will foxley's conference

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with with uh block space okay um so that was a lot of core developers that was a lot of developers

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you know a lot of arguments about you know layer two and things like that um which was good

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But it wasn't that public-facing, right?

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It sort of like was an internal conversation

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that had some publicity through BlockSpace,

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which I think they did a fantastic job.

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But, you know, I haven't seen the same push

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from a lot of other interested parties

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pursuing these Bitcoin treasuries

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and paper Bitcoin or whatever you want to call it.

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Yeah, and it's funny because like that has,

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since I got into Bitcoin, that's definitely changed.

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And I think almost everyone who buys Bitcoin

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for the first time will like leave it on exchange

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for a period of time.

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but like it was

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when I was getting to Bitcoin

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Trace Mayer had his thing on Jan 3rd

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I can't remember what it was called

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where you like

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everyone got the keys off an exchange

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and like he was doing that

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from a trader's perspective

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but still like that message

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was constantly there

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and then the step was literally

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take Bitcoin from an exchange

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onto a hardware wallet

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and then maybe run a node

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but like now

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are you really going to

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sell MicroStrategy

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have a tax hit

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buy Bitcoin

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then buy a hardware wallet

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put Bitcoin in a hardware wallet

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like the steps have been

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so much removed

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00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:07,400
that like I don't know

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if people who are buying MicroStrategy today are really Bitcoiners,

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00:11:10,060 --> 00:11:11,200
and maybe they'll never be Bitcoiners?

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00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,620
It looks like the GBTC trade, right, with the premium and the discount.

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00:11:15,340 --> 00:11:18,000
It's a good trade for a lot of folks with the MNAP premium.

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So I think that that makes sense.

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I also think that a lot of these trades are the product of financial friction,

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and you can exploit that dislocation for a certain period of time.

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Trades like this do collapse over a long enough period of time.

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I don't know if that's 10 years or 10 months.

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But, you know, I think that that trade does collapse at a certain point.

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And you're not left with the Bitcoin.

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You could almost make the case that there's a linear path for an ETF redemption in kind

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that could be more beneficial to Bitcoiners, you know, than these plays, you know,

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continuing to gobble up lots and lots of Bitcoin.

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We have a Bitcoin ETF in Australia that's in kind redemption.

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Really?

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00:11:57,020 --> 00:11:57,220
Yeah.

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Oh, that's great.

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I think it was the first one in the world.

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Have you used it?

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00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:00,420
No, I'm not an ETF guy.

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00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:00,720
Yeah.

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00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,980
But for a tax advantage reason, if I had one, I would use it.

240
00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:14,260
So when I was at Fidelity, one of the things that I, they were very proud of an internal, I guess, like program or product that they offered where they, you could get physical delivery of gold.

241
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:24,740
So I wanted to look into that to see if it was something that like the Bitcoin incubator could draft off of and like model, you know, it was just a buy and hold wallet in the early days when I was there.

242
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:30,540
But trying to figure out if we could, you know, mirror the product that they had for gold delivery.

243
00:12:30,540 --> 00:12:34,660
So I ended up researching that for a while, and it was so insanely complicated.

244
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,520
You still needed a receiver bank, and you had to pick it up,

245
00:12:38,620 --> 00:12:40,140
and armored cars, and all these things.

246
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,700
But you don't need any of that with Bitcoin.

247
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,660
Do you think they will do this with Bitcoin?

248
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,060
I think it's possible.

249
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,180
I think that Lummis has been talking about this.

250
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,060
There are other folks as well.

251
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,520
I think Hester Peirce, she was here a couple of weeks ago.

252
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:56,920
It came up during that talk.

253
00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:59,180
We haven't released that yet, but that was with Ross Stevens.

254
00:12:59,180 --> 00:12:59,780
Oh, nice.

255
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:00,500
That was a great talk.

256
00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:04,980
So that came up as like one of the next big things that they want to discuss.

257
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:06,300
It makes sense.

258
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,340
I mean, it's a bearer asset, right?

259
00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:09,320
It's a commodity asset.

260
00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:10,380
It sits in the ETF.

261
00:13:11,060 --> 00:13:13,020
You should be able to take it in kind.

262
00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:14,160
It's pretty easy to do.

263
00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:18,840
You can even have certain mechanisms, right, where it has to go to an exchange first.

264
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,040
And then from the exchange, you can withdraw it.

265
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,000
That gets a bit cumbersome and clunky.

266
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,780
Why would you need that for like KYC reasons?

267
00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:27,780
Yeah, I think that that's how BlackRock would get comfortable with it, right?

268
00:13:27,780 --> 00:13:32,020
They don't want I don't think that BlackRock would want to be, you know, redeeming people in kind like that.

269
00:13:32,020 --> 00:13:35,820
But like if you had a partner exchange, I could see Coinbase anyway.

270
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:37,860
It's at Coinbase anyway. Yeah, precisely.

271
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:50,820
So if there was a partner exchange that was facilitating that in the KYC AML, the legal risk, regulatory compliance lawyers are never getting out of this unless we're successful in taking down the BSA.

272
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,280
And right now there's not a single politician in the U.S. talking about going after the BSA.

273
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,100
There's only a handful going after the Patriot Act.

274
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,220
We might be able to get, what is it, Tom Massey, the guy who's like...

275
00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:01,780
Yeah, maybe.

276
00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:02,800
I don't know if you get him on board.

277
00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:07,280
And this also came up when Hester Peirce was here.

278
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:09,580
It is kind of curious.

279
00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:17,300
The two big ones in the US that are the main structure regulations for AML and KYC

280
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:19,500
are the Patriot Act and the Bank Secrecy Act.

281
00:14:19,660 --> 00:14:20,220
Fuck them both.

282
00:14:20,340 --> 00:14:21,060
Fuck them both.

283
00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:24,280
For different reasons, but both of them are awful.

284
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,840
There are some politicians, and they're French right now.

285
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:33,140
It's not like a widely accepted, you know, use of time in Washington to go after the Patriot Act.

286
00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:34,720
But nobody touches the BSA.

287
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,360
It's just, it's too difficult.

288
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,020
It's the same narratives with Bitcoin.

289
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:40,800
It doesn't matter.

290
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,380
Like, a bad guy might use it.

291
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:48,320
And that's, you know, enough for everybody to just give all their personal information to Coinbase or Ledger and have them get hacked.

292
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,240
And, you know, I still get these stupid phone calls every night.

293
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,180
Would there be any appetite within the government here to get rid of the Patriot Act?

294
00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:00,900
Because it's so glaringly obviously evil.

295
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:01,920
There's a little bit.

296
00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:03,800
The TSA came out of it.

297
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,480
I think it's pretty unpopular.

298
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,600
And it doesn't fit for the internet age.

299
00:15:09,820 --> 00:15:10,820
It doesn't fit with Bitcoin.

300
00:15:10,940 --> 00:15:13,620
It doesn't fit with AI and everything that's in the pipeline.

301
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,820
I hope that the US is able to tack back a little bit and respect constitutional rights

302
00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:25,960
for privacy, particularly around, you know, anybody's finances, because that's how you know

303
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,700
the most about somebody is by figuring out what they spend their money on. It's going to be really

304
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:37,580
hard. I think that that's the final boss is the BSA. The Patriot Act has some fringe politicians.

305
00:15:37,580 --> 00:15:41,900
As far as I can tell, it doesn't really have that much traction. But, you know, I would love to see

306
00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:45,960
like Bitcoin Policy Institute or some of the other folks in D.C. that are writing about this

307
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,560
zero in on that issue because it leads to direct harm, right?

308
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,740
Like when you have your personal information tied,

309
00:15:52,340 --> 00:15:54,080
especially to Bitcoin or to, you know,

310
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:55,420
other cryptocurrencies or whatever,

311
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,100
they're putting more people in harm's way

312
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:00,360
than they're preventing.

313
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,180
These programs are woefully inefficient.

314
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:05,640
The cartels still have big banks banking them.

315
00:16:05,740 --> 00:16:06,480
It's ridiculous.

316
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,620
Well, Peter van Valkenburg wrote a huge piece,

317
00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:11,300
I don't know, a year ago or something like that

318
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:12,520
on the Bank Secrecy Act.

319
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,360
I don't know if they ever like took that any further,

320
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,700
But that has, I guess, kind of started amongst these organizations.

321
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:18,920
Yeah, yeah, I hope so.

322
00:16:19,060 --> 00:16:19,900
I hope they get traction.

323
00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:22,200
There's a lot to do, right?

324
00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:27,200
You know, we'd like some tax reform, some tax clarity, accounting principles for these

325
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:27,700
corporations.

326
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:30,860
I think we're going to see that get pushed through just because these corporations are

327
00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:35,120
getting so large that they're going to be able to throw more weight around those items.

328
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,040
The problem with the BSA and the Patriot Act is, you know, large scale financial institutions

329
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,680
really like this stuff because they can spend on compliance departments. They can collect all this

330
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:51,600
information. That information is valuable and it prevents challengers. They get this regulatory

331
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,420
moat. So there are lots of reasons why they secretly love this stuff. What's your take on

332
00:16:56,420 --> 00:17:01,580
the Genius Act that just passed? It's mostly stable coins. There's some stuff relevant to

333
00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:07,840
exchanges. I didn't follow it too closely. I followed it more from the political lens. And

334
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,820
at what point are the Democrats going to, you know, drop the bullshit and realize that this is

335
00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:19,520
a new technology. It's a tool. And from my view, the Democrats are pushing this into a partisan

336
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,960
issue more than the Republicans are because they won't touch it because, you know, the bad guy

337
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:29,120
likes it. And, you know, the Republicans are kind of involved. So, you know, they want to look at

338
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:35,220
Bitcoin like, you know, it's like calling a hammer Republican. And this is going to persist as long

339
00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:36,360
as the Democrats allow it to.

340
00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:37,120
So I looked at the,

341
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,040
I paid attention to the Genius Act

342
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:39,860
and its passage

343
00:17:39,860 --> 00:17:42,220
more out of more interest

344
00:17:42,220 --> 00:17:44,100
for how the DNC

345
00:17:44,100 --> 00:17:45,320
was going to vote on this.

346
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:48,120
And they got in the way for a while.

347
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,740
And there's all these little negotiations

348
00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:50,840
about what they want.

349
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:51,880
But, you know,

350
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:52,720
I think that they pulled it

351
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,520
into the partisan battle

352
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,040
a little bit more

353
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,480
than I would have liked to see them.

354
00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,440
One of the interesting things from that was,

355
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:00,900
do you ever listen to All In?

356
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,240
Yeah, a little bit.

357
00:18:02,380 --> 00:18:03,640
I mean, I kind of hate it,

358
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:04,320
but I listen every week.

359
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:05,780
It's like Sex and the City for guys.

360
00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:07,460
Yeah, exactly.

361
00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:08,920
But I was listening to it this week,

362
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:21,423
and David Sachs came out and said like someone asked him why they can share the interest that they get from the T and stuff Yeah And David Sachs came out and like explicitly said basically bankers said no which is super interesting

363
00:18:21,423 --> 00:18:26,143
Because like they're obviously seeing this as a threat to the banking system, which it kind of is.

364
00:18:26,643 --> 00:18:30,723
But like where do you think stable coins fit on this like freedom money aspect?

365
00:18:30,923 --> 00:18:37,203
I think that's a really, like it's quite a tricky question because I get why you want to push Bitcoin to the people in like the global south,

366
00:18:37,203 --> 00:18:39,182
but also Tether is super fucking useful for them.

367
00:18:39,243 --> 00:18:45,403
Yeah. I mean, it's freedom money for people that are not in America, I suppose. It's a,

368
00:18:46,243 --> 00:18:51,923
I don't know, it has to be on like a comparative scale. So I think it's really beneficial for

369
00:18:51,923 --> 00:18:57,643
people in the global South to have access to dollars. They don't have the volatility. Dollars

370
00:18:57,643 --> 00:19:03,063
are a much bigger brand than Bitcoin. Bitcoin's a big brand, but it's the dollar. So the proliferation

371
00:19:03,063 --> 00:19:09,602
of that is extremely beneficial to the US on like a geopolitical stage. And it's useful,

372
00:19:09,703 --> 00:19:15,423
useful to individuals more useful than Bitcoin for individuals that are just trying to hold on to it.

373
00:19:15,423 --> 00:19:20,842
Like they don't really have the means to invest in something like Bitcoin, take the volatility and

374
00:19:20,842 --> 00:19:25,263
hold it for long periods of time. So it makes sense. I wouldn't say that it's free to money for

375
00:19:25,263 --> 00:19:30,303
Americans. I think it's more of a tool to propagate the value of the dollar globally,

376
00:19:30,803 --> 00:19:32,883
particularly in high inflationary periods.

377
00:19:32,883 --> 00:19:35,743
That's a pretty good sinkhole to have.

378
00:19:35,983 --> 00:19:36,063
Yeah.

379
00:19:36,803 --> 00:19:41,723
So that'll continue, I think, at a pretty rapid clip.

380
00:19:41,822 --> 00:19:44,383
I really like Paolo's thoughts on the matter.

381
00:19:45,082 --> 00:19:47,183
He doesn't think Tether's going to be around forever.

382
00:19:47,763 --> 00:19:48,803
Like, you know, he thinks it's sort of-

383
00:19:48,803 --> 00:19:48,943
Has he said that?

384
00:19:49,822 --> 00:19:50,803
I think so.

385
00:19:51,082 --> 00:19:53,463
I think that it was him or it might have been somebody else.

386
00:19:53,943 --> 00:19:56,983
But, you know, I think that it collapses to Bitcoin eventually.

387
00:19:57,223 --> 00:19:57,443
Yeah.

388
00:19:58,623 --> 00:19:59,723
Maybe it was somebody else.

389
00:19:59,723 --> 00:20:00,463
I'm pretty sure it was Powell.

390
00:20:00,483 --> 00:20:01,203
I could believe it was him.

391
00:20:01,443 --> 00:20:04,123
I know people can have their criticisms about him,

392
00:20:04,143 --> 00:20:05,043
but I think he's a Bitcoiner.

393
00:20:05,463 --> 00:20:06,143
Yeah, for sure.

394
00:20:06,463 --> 00:20:07,183
It's a Bitcoin company.

395
00:20:07,362 --> 00:20:09,143
I mean, they're moving aggressively.

396
00:20:09,623 --> 00:20:10,362
They have a lot of Bitcoin.

397
00:20:10,683 --> 00:20:11,943
It's the Bifinex team, right?

398
00:20:12,183 --> 00:20:12,543
I-Finex.

399
00:20:13,763 --> 00:20:15,983
I think that they were here so early

400
00:20:15,983 --> 00:20:17,822
in such a really, really big way

401
00:20:17,822 --> 00:20:19,623
that they certainly understand it.

402
00:20:20,683 --> 00:20:21,023
Oh, for sure.

403
00:20:21,023 --> 00:20:23,463
But the utility, it's the most profitable company

404
00:20:23,463 --> 00:20:25,563
in human history on a per employee basis.

405
00:20:25,723 --> 00:20:26,483
So things are working,

406
00:20:26,602 --> 00:20:28,423
and I think that you do that trade until it collapses.

407
00:20:28,923 --> 00:20:31,283
Do you think they totally stumbled into that as a business model?

408
00:20:31,623 --> 00:20:32,822
No, I think they're really smart guys.

409
00:20:33,423 --> 00:20:36,903
I think that it got much bigger than they were expecting, a lot faster.

410
00:20:37,102 --> 00:20:39,563
But I think that they understood the utility.

411
00:20:39,803 --> 00:20:40,582
When did Tether start?

412
00:20:40,643 --> 00:20:41,842
Was it like 2016, 2017?

413
00:20:42,763 --> 00:20:47,283
It was 15 or 16.

414
00:20:47,623 --> 00:20:52,563
When I first got into Bitcoin, the narrative of that was always like inter-exchange settlement.

415
00:20:52,563 --> 00:20:54,903
Because it's when Bitcoin fees were crazy high.

416
00:20:54,903 --> 00:20:57,503
and people were like moving Bitcoin to shit coins

417
00:20:57,503 --> 00:20:59,143
to another exchange to put it back in,

418
00:20:59,223 --> 00:20:59,743
like whatever.

419
00:20:59,983 --> 00:21:01,403
I think what it had to do with

420
00:21:01,403 --> 00:21:03,663
was a lot of the jurisdictional arbitrage.

421
00:21:03,822 --> 00:21:06,123
So if Bitcoin exchanges were showing,

422
00:21:06,223 --> 00:21:09,082
you know, massively dislocated rates,

423
00:21:09,163 --> 00:21:11,223
you had, I don't think it was Sam

424
00:21:11,223 --> 00:21:12,263
and the Kim Cheap Premium,

425
00:21:12,483 --> 00:21:14,203
but I think it was attacking stuff like that.

426
00:21:14,403 --> 00:21:14,862
Yeah, right.

427
00:21:14,862 --> 00:21:15,703
Because I do also remember,

428
00:21:15,783 --> 00:21:17,102
I think it was like some Korean exchange

429
00:21:17,102 --> 00:21:19,183
had a crazy Bitcoin exchange rate at the time.

430
00:21:19,183 --> 00:21:20,643
Yeah, always way more expensive.

431
00:21:20,803 --> 00:21:21,763
And the problem with that,

432
00:21:21,842 --> 00:21:24,203
you couldn't exploit that arbitrage

433
00:21:24,203 --> 00:21:27,623
efficiently using traditional banking rails.

434
00:21:27,703 --> 00:21:28,563
Because you have to wait for a wire.

435
00:21:28,643 --> 00:21:28,822
Yeah.

436
00:21:28,983 --> 00:21:31,362
That's why there was that massive dislocation.

437
00:21:31,443 --> 00:21:33,523
It actually had to do with the correspondent banking network.

438
00:21:33,783 --> 00:21:35,822
But now it's to the point where I forget the number.

439
00:21:35,983 --> 00:21:38,263
Jack said it when we were at BPI last time,

440
00:21:38,383 --> 00:21:40,623
but the number of people that are onboarding is wild.

441
00:21:40,943 --> 00:21:41,342
Like Tether.

442
00:21:41,483 --> 00:21:41,743
Tether.

443
00:21:41,903 --> 00:21:42,483
I'm not surprised.

444
00:21:42,623 --> 00:21:43,663
I'm pretty sure he said it was like,

445
00:21:44,102 --> 00:21:44,963
I might have this wrong.

446
00:21:45,102 --> 00:21:46,523
I'll check before I put the show out.

447
00:21:46,523 --> 00:21:49,703
But like 250,000 people a week or something ridiculous like that.

448
00:21:49,803 --> 00:21:50,303
That's insane.

449
00:21:50,463 --> 00:21:50,943
It's insane.

450
00:21:51,043 --> 00:21:52,023
Yeah, we got to check that math.

451
00:21:52,102 --> 00:21:52,483
I don't know.

452
00:21:52,483 --> 00:21:57,623
there might be more humans. I'm pretty sure that was right. More customers than humans on the

453
00:21:57,623 --> 00:22:03,602
planet. Otherwise, this is all getting cut out. I want to go back to like the very start of this

454
00:22:03,602 --> 00:22:07,063
conversation. You said you were in Oslo while we were all in Vegas. Like, I think those two

455
00:22:07,063 --> 00:22:11,643
conferences couldn't be more different. Yeah. What was it like? Because that's like a real

456
00:22:11,643 --> 00:22:17,703
freedom money conference. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what Alex and the HRF team have put together here

457
00:22:17,703 --> 00:22:22,463
is incredible. For a really long time, Bitcoin didn't have that much to do with HRF. It was

458
00:22:22,463 --> 00:22:29,903
the activists. And then Bitcoin starts to slowly creep in as a tool that helps them, you know,

459
00:22:30,063 --> 00:22:37,523
do their work, prioritizing safety and efficiency and privacy and all these things and authoritarian

460
00:22:37,523 --> 00:22:43,023
governments. It's just a really elegant fit with the work that a lot of the activists are doing.

461
00:22:43,963 --> 00:22:48,143
So the evolution of that over the years to the point where, you know, Alex and his team are

462
00:22:48,143 --> 00:22:54,263
getting some of the top core developers, top NOSTER developers in the world together with

463
00:22:54,263 --> 00:22:59,003
activists so that they can build their products with them in mind is really fascinating. So they

464
00:22:59,003 --> 00:23:06,082
did a NOSTER event and everybody was really hyped up about NOSTER at the time. And an activist

465
00:23:06,082 --> 00:23:12,283
kicks off with a brief talk about it's not ready for game time, right? Like for prime time.

466
00:23:12,283 --> 00:23:18,903
there are security holes in NOSTER that need to be addressed if we're going to tell somebody that

467
00:23:18,903 --> 00:23:23,563
this tool can be trusted in a very high stakes situation. Are these things like privacy and

468
00:23:23,563 --> 00:23:28,683
stuff like that? Yeah, privacy, you know, account access, losing your private key. NOSTER is super

469
00:23:28,683 --> 00:23:32,743
cool, but it's way too early. It's too clunky, particularly when the stakes are as high as they

470
00:23:32,743 --> 00:23:40,322
are for a lot of these activists. That is a sobering talk. And it was amazing that it gets

471
00:23:40,322 --> 00:23:44,423
delivered to the activists and to the developers at the same time, because that's what they ended

472
00:23:44,423 --> 00:23:48,643
up talking about. Like, how do I like, what are the bugs here? What are the features that you need

473
00:23:48,643 --> 00:23:54,303
to see to actually put it to a point where this is safer to use than signal safer to use than,

474
00:23:54,303 --> 00:24:00,743
you know, X or Twitter or whatever? Yeah. So that's real progress. So I love what HRF is doing.

475
00:24:00,822 --> 00:24:05,803
We saw a lot of that. The Bitcoin cohort for the Oslo Freedom Forum is bigger every single year.

476
00:24:06,063 --> 00:24:10,023
You know, there was a beefsteak this year. There wasn't one in Vegas. There wasn't one in Vegas.

477
00:24:10,322 --> 00:24:11,183
First time ever.

478
00:24:11,243 --> 00:24:11,463
Damn.

479
00:24:11,783 --> 00:24:12,063
I know.

480
00:24:12,123 --> 00:24:12,463
I'm sorry.

481
00:24:12,703 --> 00:24:13,743
It was a really good one too.

482
00:24:13,862 --> 00:24:14,183
Was it?

483
00:24:14,283 --> 00:24:14,543
Yeah.

484
00:24:14,623 --> 00:24:15,543
He got a whole cow.

485
00:24:15,943 --> 00:24:16,423
Oh shit.

486
00:24:16,543 --> 00:24:16,703
Yeah.

487
00:24:16,703 --> 00:24:17,123
It was awesome.

488
00:24:17,283 --> 00:24:17,822
Did he finish it?

489
00:24:18,263 --> 00:24:19,063
I don't know.

490
00:24:19,203 --> 00:24:20,143
It was a cow.

491
00:24:20,223 --> 00:24:20,983
It was a little cow.

492
00:24:21,102 --> 00:24:22,602
It wasn't like a baby cow.

493
00:24:22,663 --> 00:24:23,143
It wasn't veal.

494
00:24:23,283 --> 00:24:27,643
But I don't think it was like a full blown adult cow.

495
00:24:28,303 --> 00:24:34,082
So with Noster, are you pretty bearish on it for now then?

496
00:24:34,903 --> 00:24:36,303
I'm not bearish on it for now.

497
00:24:36,303 --> 00:24:41,483
It's going to take some time for it to hopefully realize its potential.

498
00:24:41,602 --> 00:24:42,303
I think it's great.

499
00:24:42,743 --> 00:24:44,723
But it's like what we were talking about before.

500
00:24:45,223 --> 00:24:49,923
One of the biggest barriers for people adopting Bitcoin was private key management

501
00:24:49,923 --> 00:24:53,443
and actually interacting with the protocol itself.

502
00:24:54,403 --> 00:24:57,362
Nostar feels a lot like early Bitcoin.

503
00:24:58,723 --> 00:25:03,683
So if we're going to get something like that to the point where it's our digital identity

504
00:25:03,683 --> 00:25:08,723
and our digital representation of your voice and yourself online,

505
00:25:08,903 --> 00:25:11,082
that's pretty fucking valuable, right?

506
00:25:11,283 --> 00:25:13,822
The stakes are almost higher than it is with Bitcoin

507
00:25:13,822 --> 00:25:16,342
because you can have multiple wallets and you can spread them out

508
00:25:16,342 --> 00:25:19,963
and there's hardware wallets and, you know, the attack surface is much smaller.

509
00:25:20,963 --> 00:25:22,822
But it still comes down to that private key.

510
00:25:24,443 --> 00:25:27,623
Splitting it up in a way that you would split up, let's say, a Bitcoin wallet.

511
00:25:27,623 --> 00:25:31,223
If I have like, you know, 20 Bitcoin wallets and 20 private keys,

512
00:25:31,223 --> 00:25:35,463
then the attack surface is much more complicated for the whole thing.

513
00:25:35,883 --> 00:25:39,842
But if you have one private key for your digital identity,

514
00:25:40,643 --> 00:25:41,883
that gets a little scary.

515
00:25:42,483 --> 00:25:45,563
So I think that it's in the early phases,

516
00:25:45,563 --> 00:25:48,082
and people have been talking about this

517
00:25:48,082 --> 00:25:51,623
and working on issues like this and many more for a while.

518
00:25:51,703 --> 00:25:53,362
Some of the other stuff are just features, right?

519
00:25:54,303 --> 00:25:56,483
The Nostro ecosystem is still quite small.

520
00:25:57,082 --> 00:25:58,163
They're mostly Bitcoiners.

521
00:25:58,303 --> 00:25:59,643
We're kind of talking to each other.

522
00:25:59,643 --> 00:26:01,483
Even X can feel that way.

523
00:26:01,623 --> 00:26:02,063
Oh, 100%.

524
00:26:02,063 --> 00:26:08,342
So like on X, you have lots of people that know absolutely nothing about Bitcoin, but

525
00:26:08,342 --> 00:26:10,703
they don't engage in that conversation because that's Bitcoin Twitter.

526
00:26:11,443 --> 00:26:13,123
That's what Nostra feels like right now.

527
00:26:13,423 --> 00:26:17,623
So growing that tent and making it much more attractive to folks, it's really difficult.

528
00:26:17,783 --> 00:26:19,523
It's a tech scaling issue.

529
00:26:19,883 --> 00:26:20,023
Yeah.

530
00:26:20,303 --> 00:26:21,163
It's powerful.

531
00:26:21,362 --> 00:26:22,123
It's very cool.

532
00:26:22,322 --> 00:26:24,423
There are some functions that work really well.

533
00:26:24,423 --> 00:26:30,203
but um you know i think it's going to take you know a couple of years to to sort out if some of

534
00:26:30,203 --> 00:26:37,983
the the the critical um solves can be delivered and if people give a shit i mean there's a lot

535
00:26:37,983 --> 00:26:42,763
of competition i've never really been on blue sky that looks like a shit show on that i've been on

536
00:26:42,763 --> 00:26:47,223
threads i checked in one time just to see like when it leaked what that pub key was going to dc

537
00:26:47,223 --> 00:26:52,163
i checked in there and it was like it was like the grandpa simpson meme when he walks into the

538
00:26:52,163 --> 00:26:59,403
bar and sees Bart and then walks straight back out. Did you hear the conversation I had with

539
00:26:59,403 --> 00:27:02,943
Paul Stort and Gladstein recently? I have not. I want to see that one. I've seen clippies.

540
00:27:03,063 --> 00:27:10,463
It was hard work. Yeah. Paul makes everything difficult. He does. I find it hard because

541
00:27:10,463 --> 00:27:16,783
he's a nice guy. He is a nice guy. And I don't think he's doing it purposely. As in, I don't

542
00:27:16,783 --> 00:27:20,283
think he's just attacking Bitcoin for the sake of attacking Bitcoin. I think he's got a huge chip

543
00:27:20,283 --> 00:27:21,383
on his shoulder about drive chains.

544
00:27:22,582 --> 00:27:23,183
Well, yeah.

545
00:27:23,423 --> 00:27:24,263
He also has a company,

546
00:27:24,463 --> 00:27:25,582
a VC-backed company.

547
00:27:25,783 --> 00:27:26,163
Totally.

548
00:27:27,043 --> 00:27:29,003
So I think there's a number of reasons he does it.

549
00:27:29,082 --> 00:27:30,203
But like one of the things

550
00:27:30,203 --> 00:27:31,842
that Alex was bringing up a lot

551
00:27:31,842 --> 00:27:33,063
was like e-cash.

552
00:27:33,463 --> 00:27:33,643
Yeah.

553
00:27:34,223 --> 00:27:36,003
I really, I've used e-cash a bit,

554
00:27:36,123 --> 00:27:36,683
not loads.

555
00:27:36,923 --> 00:27:37,803
I really like it.

556
00:27:38,303 --> 00:27:39,842
And I basically would never get bet

557
00:27:39,842 --> 00:27:41,362
against anything Cali's doing

558
00:27:41,362 --> 00:27:42,563
because he's a fucking badass.

559
00:27:42,723 --> 00:27:42,983
I agree.

560
00:27:43,322 --> 00:27:44,563
But like, how do you think

561
00:27:44,563 --> 00:27:45,983
that kind of fits into the

562
00:27:45,983 --> 00:27:47,703
like freedom money aspect of Bitcoin?

563
00:27:47,703 --> 00:27:50,683
I think the functionality is insane.

564
00:27:51,183 --> 00:27:55,203
Like, you know, Kashi, Fedimance, eCash.

565
00:27:55,883 --> 00:27:58,903
I'll be honest, this is a world that I haven't dabbled with that much.

566
00:27:58,963 --> 00:28:02,023
Maybe the same or a little bit less than you have.

567
00:28:02,063 --> 00:28:03,143
I've played with it a bunch.

568
00:28:04,263 --> 00:28:06,763
I believe that there's been some transactions,

569
00:28:07,003 --> 00:28:09,903
some test transactions here at PubKey using it as well.

570
00:28:10,163 --> 00:28:12,582
I will use it tonight if we get some beers.

571
00:28:12,703 --> 00:28:14,143
Yeah, absolutely. That sounds great.

572
00:28:14,803 --> 00:28:18,743
I'd love to see that because I haven't had enough hands-on experience with it.

573
00:28:19,822 --> 00:28:20,883
I think it's fantastic.

574
00:28:21,082 --> 00:28:22,463
I think Paul's dead wrong about this.

575
00:28:23,582 --> 00:28:25,423
You know, Kesha's been around for…

576
00:28:25,423 --> 00:28:26,322
Two years.

577
00:28:26,383 --> 00:28:26,803
Two years.

578
00:28:27,263 --> 00:28:28,082
Two and a half years, maybe.

579
00:28:28,203 --> 00:28:31,623
But even still, it was literally coded by Kali over a weekend.

580
00:28:31,963 --> 00:28:34,043
This isn't a huge VC-backed company.

581
00:28:34,163 --> 00:28:35,463
He's kind of done this on his own.

582
00:28:35,582 --> 00:28:37,623
And it's got to an insane point very quickly.

583
00:28:37,883 --> 00:28:39,703
I think he has a bunch of developers now.

584
00:28:39,783 --> 00:28:40,582
I'm sure he does now.

585
00:28:40,602 --> 00:28:41,883
I think the team is pretty robust.

586
00:28:42,043 --> 00:28:43,183
Yeah, I'm sure that's true now.

587
00:28:43,183 --> 00:28:44,983
but I know when he started, it was literally him.

588
00:28:45,102 --> 00:28:46,723
I remember you're wearing your cheat code thing.

589
00:28:47,203 --> 00:28:48,803
He wasn't here this year at cheat code,

590
00:28:48,862 --> 00:28:49,763
but he was the year before.

591
00:28:49,903 --> 00:28:50,983
And I remember on the second day,

592
00:28:51,023 --> 00:28:53,043
which is meant to be like the day we just go

593
00:28:53,043 --> 00:28:54,643
and have fun at the football and drink beers,

594
00:28:55,043 --> 00:28:56,903
Cali was sat inside in the clubhouse on his laptop,

595
00:28:57,063 --> 00:28:57,743
like tapping away.

596
00:28:57,842 --> 00:28:58,822
It's like, you don't bet against something like that.

597
00:28:58,822 --> 00:28:59,403
I remember that.

598
00:29:00,283 --> 00:29:01,703
That's back when he was still wearing

599
00:29:01,703 --> 00:29:04,003
the full like face covering.

600
00:29:04,082 --> 00:29:05,023
He's still doing that though, right?

601
00:29:05,283 --> 00:29:05,602
Sometimes.

602
00:29:05,903 --> 00:29:06,842
I think at big conferences.

603
00:29:07,663 --> 00:29:10,763
Some conferences, he'll let it all hang out.

604
00:29:11,023 --> 00:29:11,582
Fair enough.

605
00:29:11,582 --> 00:29:12,543
It's easier to raise money

606
00:29:12,543 --> 00:29:13,443
if they can see your face.

607
00:29:13,582 --> 00:29:14,123
Yeah, that's true.

608
00:29:14,223 --> 00:29:14,703
He's not me.

609
00:29:14,763 --> 00:29:15,342
No, he's not.

610
00:29:15,763 --> 00:29:16,383
I'm kidding.

611
00:29:16,483 --> 00:29:16,842
I'm kidding.

612
00:29:16,963 --> 00:29:17,203
I'm kidding.

613
00:29:17,203 --> 00:29:18,123
Sorry, Cali.

614
00:29:19,303 --> 00:29:22,862
But like, I really like Kashir.

615
00:29:22,963 --> 00:29:23,803
I like what he's doing,

616
00:29:23,943 --> 00:29:25,283
but I kind of find it a hard,

617
00:29:25,403 --> 00:29:27,203
and I think he would also be the first to admit this.

618
00:29:27,223 --> 00:29:29,463
It's kind of a hard thing to square away

619
00:29:29,463 --> 00:29:30,362
in the sense that it's like,

620
00:29:30,463 --> 00:29:31,263
it is custodial.

621
00:29:31,463 --> 00:29:31,623
Yeah.

622
00:29:31,683 --> 00:29:32,723
Like it might be really private,

623
00:29:32,803 --> 00:29:33,243
really good.

624
00:29:33,362 --> 00:29:34,423
It works,

625
00:29:34,543 --> 00:29:36,163
but it is like a custodial trade-off.

626
00:29:36,223 --> 00:29:36,503
And like,

627
00:29:37,263 --> 00:29:38,483
are we sacrificing something

628
00:29:38,483 --> 00:29:40,322
to have like a freedom money future with this?

629
00:29:41,723 --> 00:29:42,082
Yeah.

630
00:29:42,543 --> 00:29:43,082
I think so.

631
00:29:43,283 --> 00:29:44,883
Is that trade-off worthwhile?

632
00:29:45,963 --> 00:29:46,483
Potentially.

633
00:29:46,822 --> 00:29:48,602
I mean, some of the privacy solutions,

634
00:29:48,602 --> 00:29:52,663
there were varying degrees of custodial aspects

635
00:29:52,663 --> 00:29:55,582
to Wasabi and Samurai as well.

636
00:29:55,923 --> 00:30:00,643
Wasabi would take fees out of your wallet

637
00:30:00,643 --> 00:30:02,663
to pay for the mixing services and things like that.

638
00:30:03,703 --> 00:30:05,783
That's a sliding scale of custody.

639
00:30:06,082 --> 00:30:10,082
It's like a partially custodial solution in a way.

640
00:30:10,082 --> 00:30:13,023
Yeah, because you were still self-custody on Wasabi.

641
00:30:13,223 --> 00:30:14,663
Just when you sent it to Mix, they would take it.

642
00:30:14,663 --> 00:30:15,263
Yeah, they just take some.

643
00:30:15,403 --> 00:30:15,582
Yeah.

644
00:30:16,243 --> 00:30:17,822
But they weren't taking it out of your wallet.

645
00:30:17,923 --> 00:30:20,063
It was when you sent a transaction to Mix for Bitcoin.

646
00:30:20,263 --> 00:30:20,523
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

647
00:30:20,523 --> 00:30:23,283
It's not like they had the ability to step in and take it.

648
00:30:23,283 --> 00:30:25,063
Early on, though, some of the mix—

649
00:30:25,063 --> 00:30:27,023
because I think there was volatility in the mixing fees,

650
00:30:27,123 --> 00:30:28,543
depending on how much uses there was.

651
00:30:28,683 --> 00:30:31,023
So it could drain wallets in the early days.

652
00:30:31,082 --> 00:30:32,943
And they fixed a lot of that stuff.

653
00:30:33,043 --> 00:30:33,663
It's a good product.

654
00:30:33,803 --> 00:30:35,023
There's no shade at Wasabi.

655
00:30:36,123 --> 00:30:38,303
But I think that the trade-offs are pretty clear.

656
00:30:38,303 --> 00:30:42,822
and you still have to go through, in most cases,

657
00:30:42,943 --> 00:30:45,623
most of the Bitcoin is bought through KYC, AML,

658
00:30:45,983 --> 00:30:47,503
you know, compliant exchanges.

659
00:30:48,463 --> 00:30:50,903
The tracking software is good enough.

660
00:30:51,043 --> 00:30:52,803
You have to be pretty skilled, right?

661
00:30:52,822 --> 00:30:54,203
You're talking about like a Mr. Hoddle

662
00:30:54,203 --> 00:30:55,822
or somebody like that, that, you know,

663
00:30:55,842 --> 00:30:57,443
has the confidence and capability

664
00:30:57,443 --> 00:31:02,783
to obfuscate sort of that chain of funds.

665
00:31:02,963 --> 00:31:04,263
Yeah, because it's not just doing the mixing,

666
00:31:04,403 --> 00:31:05,203
it's what happens after.

667
00:31:05,483 --> 00:31:07,063
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

668
00:31:07,063 --> 00:31:17,783
And then if they're all tainted coins and they just decide that all these coins that came out of this mixer are now like tainted and commingled with, you know, XYZ bad guy that they don't like for the day.

669
00:31:18,023 --> 00:31:18,563
Yeah, exactly.

670
00:31:19,043 --> 00:31:22,563
So the attack vectors are things that we like, you know, poured over for years.

671
00:31:22,663 --> 00:31:23,723
I think that they're still there.

672
00:31:24,503 --> 00:31:30,983
I think that there's a lot less people that view that fight as something, you know, worth fighting for.

673
00:31:31,623 --> 00:31:35,322
And I think a big offset of that are, you know, it's what we were talking about before.

674
00:31:35,322 --> 00:31:47,102
I think that there's fatigue. And I think the number go up is like, you know, when people get tired and the numbers going up, like, you know, how incentivized are you to keep fighting for like the ideals?

675
00:31:47,243 --> 00:31:52,243
And there's great people, Eric Carson, like lots of folks that are still talking about these things.

676
00:31:52,243 --> 00:31:56,803
I do a little bit. But the reality is that, you know, life is hard enough.

677
00:31:56,943 --> 00:32:00,803
And I think a lot of people are going to opt out and, you know, sort of simp for sailor.

678
00:32:00,803 --> 00:32:05,523
Yeah, I think that's true. And like we were talking before we did this show about the orange pilling problem.

679
00:32:06,803 --> 00:32:11,163
Like why do you think that exists? Because I feel like it's a new thing.

680
00:32:11,503 --> 00:32:18,822
So let me just give some context. So like if we did this show and this was all about like Bitcoin treasury companies, it would do really fucking well.

681
00:32:18,923 --> 00:32:24,203
And then because we're not talking about that and we're talking about like privacy and freedom money, it won't do so well.

682
00:32:24,423 --> 00:32:27,943
I'll come on later and we can talk about Bitcoin treasury companies another day.

683
00:32:27,943 --> 00:32:31,203
But these are the reasons that I got into Bitcoin was like,

684
00:32:31,463 --> 00:32:34,163
obviously, it's really nice to get rich from something.

685
00:32:34,423 --> 00:32:38,003
But like, I genuinely care about like the freedom money aspects of Bitcoin.

686
00:32:38,383 --> 00:32:41,102
Why do you think we're struggling to make more people care about that?

687
00:32:41,443 --> 00:32:42,943
Does it just not scale as an idea?

688
00:32:43,223 --> 00:32:44,203
It's a really good question.

689
00:32:44,383 --> 00:32:48,303
The intellectual curiosity has to persist for a really long time

690
00:32:48,303 --> 00:32:50,223
because you can come from the marketing side.

691
00:32:50,223 --> 00:32:56,803
The number go up is the best marketing department that Bitcoin has.

692
00:32:56,803 --> 00:32:57,983
It's extremely effective.

693
00:32:58,183 --> 00:33:11,443
To stick around for the freedom money, for the self-sovereignty, the privacy-preserving elements that could be there if you dive in requires you to dive into the technical, economic, social underpinnings of how this stuff works.

694
00:33:11,963 --> 00:33:16,263
Most people just don't have the capabilities, even for one of those, to do a deep dive, right?

695
00:33:16,322 --> 00:33:23,463
Like, let's say somebody really is interested in the social mechanics or the political philosophy of how Bitcoin works.

696
00:33:24,183 --> 00:33:29,303
They can dive into that and not really understand the tech or the economic side and get pretty far.

697
00:33:29,403 --> 00:33:34,443
But they're missing a tremendous amount of why it works and why they should care and why they should dive in.

698
00:33:34,803 --> 00:33:49,143
To get somebody to, you know, really buy into something that is sort of like a lifelong, you know, exercise in being a student, like getting super heady academics with topics that you're uncomfortable with.

699
00:33:49,223 --> 00:33:50,683
I was a lawyer and a history major.

700
00:33:50,683 --> 00:33:54,043
when I first started looking into Bitcoin,

701
00:33:54,183 --> 00:33:56,743
I spent a really long time with no background whatsoever

702
00:33:56,743 --> 00:33:59,743
trying to understand as much of the technical side as possible

703
00:33:59,743 --> 00:34:01,243
because that's the bedrock.

704
00:34:01,483 --> 00:34:04,543
And then the economic principles that Satoshi overlaid

705
00:34:04,543 --> 00:34:07,063
and the evolution of some of those principles

706
00:34:07,063 --> 00:34:10,023
as it pertains to, let's say, like Bitcoin mining

707
00:34:10,023 --> 00:34:11,843
and mining pools and transaction fees,

708
00:34:12,563 --> 00:34:14,383
that's a really big commitment.

709
00:34:15,543 --> 00:34:16,943
So it's twofold.

710
00:34:17,343 --> 00:34:18,763
Do we have the right Sherpas,

711
00:34:18,763 --> 00:34:22,383
the right old guard that is making that a requirement?

712
00:34:23,282 --> 00:34:26,943
And do you have a receptive audience that wants to go down that path?

713
00:34:28,002 --> 00:34:30,843
For every flush out of every cycle,

714
00:34:31,543 --> 00:34:34,602
and we talked about this a little bit earlier with the ICO craze,

715
00:34:34,943 --> 00:34:38,743
a lot of people dabbled aggressively in altcoins and ICOs.

716
00:34:39,443 --> 00:34:42,343
And let's say 100 got washed out and they said,

717
00:34:42,423 --> 00:34:43,883
fuck this, I'm never going back to that.

718
00:34:44,102 --> 00:34:48,263
Maybe 10 of them became Bitcoiners and decided to double down.

719
00:34:48,763 --> 00:34:48,943
Yeah.

720
00:34:49,063 --> 00:34:51,082
And literally, I remember getting to the end of 2017.

721
00:34:51,462 --> 00:34:54,782
Like, to be fair, so I first got into it in like 2016.

722
00:34:54,782 --> 00:34:57,683
And then through 2017, I was just doing pure shit coining.

723
00:34:57,923 --> 00:34:58,082
Yeah.

724
00:34:58,462 --> 00:34:59,403
What was your favorite?

725
00:34:59,903 --> 00:35:00,743
I had...

726
00:35:00,743 --> 00:35:02,363
What was the worst dick kicking you sustained?

727
00:35:02,363 --> 00:35:04,302
The worst dick kicking was one called Modem.

728
00:35:04,643 --> 00:35:05,002
Modem?

729
00:35:05,102 --> 00:35:05,883
I don't know if you remember it.

730
00:35:05,883 --> 00:35:06,563
I don't even remember that one.

731
00:35:06,563 --> 00:35:08,343
It was like logistics on a blockchain, bro.

732
00:35:08,443 --> 00:35:08,962
I love it.

733
00:35:09,623 --> 00:35:10,502
Where can I invest?

734
00:35:11,703 --> 00:35:12,563
You can't anymore.

735
00:35:12,663 --> 00:35:13,163
It went to zero.

736
00:35:13,663 --> 00:35:15,442
It was one of you that actually went to zero.

737
00:35:16,423 --> 00:35:19,823
But like the whole time I was getting more and more interested in Bitcoin.

738
00:35:20,063 --> 00:35:22,023
And at least I was denominating what I was doing in Bitcoin.

739
00:35:22,163 --> 00:35:23,343
I had that part at least right.

740
00:35:24,582 --> 00:35:26,143
But I remember at the end of it being like,

741
00:35:26,323 --> 00:35:29,602
I've told everyone I could possibly talk to over the last year about,

742
00:35:30,223 --> 00:35:33,323
at the time, sorry, Ethereum, as well as like Bitcoin.

743
00:35:34,102 --> 00:35:36,523
And at the end of the year, I was like, fuck, I was so wrong.

744
00:35:36,783 --> 00:35:37,883
I was like, who was right?

745
00:35:38,002 --> 00:35:38,982
Who was right the whole time?

746
00:35:39,043 --> 00:35:39,803
Like, where's the signal?

747
00:35:39,923 --> 00:35:40,962
And it was Pierre Richard.

748
00:35:41,663 --> 00:35:45,082
And I remember just going back and like reading the entire Nakamoto Institute.

749
00:35:45,082 --> 00:35:46,082
And that was my change.

750
00:35:46,082 --> 00:35:47,082
Pierre was incredible in that era.

751
00:35:47,082 --> 00:35:48,082
Yeah, he was incredible.

752
00:35:48,082 --> 00:35:49,082
It was like-

753
00:35:49,082 --> 00:35:50,082
Still is.

754
00:35:50,082 --> 00:35:51,082
Yeah, for sure.

755
00:35:51,082 --> 00:35:57,082
But it's like, who- I don't know who the people who are doing the orange pilling are now.

756
00:35:57,082 --> 00:36:02,082
Like, I'm trying, but you have to show a decent amount of interest to sit down and listen to

757
00:36:02,082 --> 00:36:03,082
an hour-long podcast.

758
00:36:03,082 --> 00:36:06,082
How do you get that touch point with normal people?

759
00:36:06,082 --> 00:36:09,082
I think, look, PubKey's trying, right?

760
00:36:09,082 --> 00:36:14,082
We try to focus on maybe 60, 70% entertainment.

761
00:36:14,383 --> 00:36:16,283
That's why it's in a pub.

762
00:36:16,283 --> 00:36:21,283
We try to make it as comfortable and fun

763
00:36:22,883 --> 00:36:38,085
and entertaining as possible And then you can kind of hide the orange pill in peanut butter like you giving a dog medicine or something Yeah You know I think Peter doing a really good job with Real Bedford as well For sure And you know both of the projects kind of bury the Bitcoin

764
00:36:38,085 --> 00:36:42,945
stuff, at least on first glance. I actually think he like just sorry to interrupt, but like, I think

765
00:36:42,945 --> 00:36:47,125
it's more than just Real Bedford. I think everything he's doing in Bedford is changing.

766
00:36:47,265 --> 00:36:52,185
For sure. But you have to look under the hood with him, right? It's not there. There are some

767
00:36:52,185 --> 00:36:58,225
Easter eggs. PubKey and Bedford are very similar in this regard. They're like Easter eggs where

768
00:36:58,225 --> 00:37:02,345
Bitcoiners identify this. Bitcoiners know that that's a Bitcoin company. But if people are just

769
00:37:02,345 --> 00:37:07,725
going to a football match at the park or, you know, coming in for a burger and a beer here,

770
00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:12,525
and they don't have that frame of reference, it's just a nice day out, right? Like the bar's

771
00:37:12,525 --> 00:37:16,725
comfortable, the games are good, and that's fantastic. But if you get into it and you look

772
00:37:16,725 --> 00:37:20,405
under the hood, and it's just like, you know, what are these Easter eggs about? Like, what are

773
00:37:20,405 --> 00:37:26,245
they talking about in that back room um how why why did people raise all this money from those

774
00:37:26,245 --> 00:37:34,185
those those gorgeous twins uh like you know then then that's the element where curiosity is a much

775
00:37:34,185 --> 00:37:39,505
better start to the conversation yeah when when a no coiner asked the first or pre-coiner asked

776
00:37:39,505 --> 00:37:45,005
the first question that is a far higher quality conversation than if you know we just go out and

777
00:37:45,005 --> 00:37:48,465
say like you really ought to buy some bitcoin totally like the world's going to a shit going

778
00:37:48,465 --> 00:37:53,405
to shit and this is the only salvation that's an off-putting weird conversation yes right and it

779
00:37:53,405 --> 00:38:00,205
in my experience it's really rare to have that conversation uh get traction but if they ask the

780
00:38:00,205 --> 00:38:05,265
first question um if somebody pays with bitcoin at the bar uh you know and there's a group of

781
00:38:05,265 --> 00:38:08,725
people and they're like what was that was that a bitcoin transaction and like you know then there's

782
00:38:08,725 --> 00:38:16,045
there's the um has that happened all the time all the time yeah that's very cool if the room is

783
00:38:16,045 --> 00:38:20,465
packed in the back and we're talking about, you know, nerd shit back there. Like, you know,

784
00:38:20,625 --> 00:38:25,225
every single time we host an event, there'll be a couple of people at the bar. Maybe, you know,

785
00:38:25,285 --> 00:38:31,065
it's just guys catching up or, you know, a date or, you know, somebody by themselves. They'll

786
00:38:31,065 --> 00:38:35,525
pick up the beer and they'll go into the back and sit down just to see what they're talking about.

787
00:38:35,525 --> 00:38:40,645
Yeah. Some of it might sound like, you know, an alien language and they don't stick around and

788
00:38:40,645 --> 00:38:45,165
pay attention to it. Maybe it's interesting to them, maybe not. But like, you know, just having

789
00:38:45,165 --> 00:38:53,425
that element potentially introduced somebody to something and you're in the position to maybe

790
00:38:53,425 --> 00:38:57,865
strike a chord with that individual, that really helps. I don't know how many people are becoming

791
00:38:57,865 --> 00:39:03,785
Bitcoiners because of the treasuries or because of what they see on CNBC or certainly not New York

792
00:39:03,785 --> 00:39:07,965
Times or Wall Street Journal. They're still out there terrifying people that this is like, you

793
00:39:07,965 --> 00:39:16,885
drug dealer money. We've been, I think, ineffective in advancing that element of the conversation.

794
00:39:17,545 --> 00:39:18,805
I mean, you've been on Fox News.

795
00:39:19,185 --> 00:39:19,605
I have.

796
00:39:19,925 --> 00:39:20,725
A couple of times, right?

797
00:39:20,765 --> 00:39:21,245
A couple of times.

798
00:39:21,245 --> 00:39:21,745
I watched one of those-

799
00:39:21,745 --> 00:39:23,105
They just wanted to talk about Trump, though.

800
00:39:23,445 --> 00:39:25,285
Yeah, of course. Well, maybe Trump is the guy.

801
00:39:25,285 --> 00:39:28,225
A little bit of Bitcoin, actually. That's not true. A couple of the hits, they were interested,

802
00:39:28,425 --> 00:39:31,985
but one guy knew what he was talking about and was really curious.

803
00:39:32,205 --> 00:39:33,885
The other guy was a little bit older.

804
00:39:34,425 --> 00:39:36,565
That was my favorite one. He was the old English guy, right?

805
00:39:36,565 --> 00:39:36,805
Yeah.

806
00:39:36,805 --> 00:39:38,525
And he was like, you can't pay with Bitcoin, can you?

807
00:39:38,525 --> 00:39:39,225
It was incredible.

808
00:39:39,485 --> 00:39:39,665
Yeah.

809
00:39:39,765 --> 00:39:40,965
And I fucked up the math.

810
00:39:41,125 --> 00:39:43,825
I think he's like, how much is like a burger and a beer?

811
00:39:43,925 --> 00:39:46,085
And I just was like, I don't know, like 10,000 sats.

812
00:39:46,645 --> 00:39:48,345
And it was like a thousand dollars or something.

813
00:39:48,525 --> 00:39:48,925
I don't know.

814
00:39:49,345 --> 00:39:49,845
Oh, well.

815
00:39:50,065 --> 00:39:52,245
I mean, no one's going to pull you up on that.

816
00:39:52,325 --> 00:39:52,965
Definitely not him.

817
00:39:53,225 --> 00:39:55,685
He was doing math on live television is not my forte.

818
00:39:55,845 --> 00:39:56,545
It's not easy.

819
00:39:56,725 --> 00:40:00,565
I refuse to do math on the podcast because I've done it before and done the exact same thing.

820
00:40:00,665 --> 00:40:00,825
Yeah.

821
00:40:01,505 --> 00:40:05,445
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822
00:40:06,025 --> 00:40:07,445
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823
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824
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826
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827
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828
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829
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830
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831
00:40:39,205 --> 00:40:42,705
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832
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833
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834
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835
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836
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837
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838
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839
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840
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841
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842
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843
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844
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845
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846
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847
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848
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849
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850
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851
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852
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853
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854
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855
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856
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857
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858
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859
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860
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861
00:42:08,045 --> 00:42:09,725
I do want to talk about PubKey, but

862
00:42:09,725 --> 00:42:11,605
we're going to bring Jerk on in a minute to talk about that.

863
00:42:12,205 --> 00:42:13,745
Get him on. But before we

864
00:42:13,745 --> 00:42:15,705
do, let's talk just a little bit about

865
00:42:15,705 --> 00:42:17,905
New York. I mean, Jerk, you can come in for this if you want.

866
00:42:19,065 --> 00:42:19,645
New York.

867
00:42:19,745 --> 00:42:21,365
He looks so sad to be coming on the podcast.

868
00:42:21,685 --> 00:42:23,105
I know. I make him do it all the time.

869
00:42:24,525 --> 00:42:25,985
Get a beer, Jerk. He's so good at it.

870
00:42:26,885 --> 00:42:27,945
Get yourself a coaster.

871
00:42:28,525 --> 00:42:29,825
The first time I came to

872
00:42:29,825 --> 00:42:31,505
PubKey, this table was still being made.

873
00:42:31,785 --> 00:42:36,365
That was wild. That's when Peter hit Michael Sonnenstein with a two by four.

874
00:42:36,725 --> 00:42:39,905
Yeah, that was a fucking great interview.

875
00:42:40,565 --> 00:42:43,785
This table was like, I swear, about a foot thicker when we first used it.

876
00:42:45,405 --> 00:42:47,325
Yeah, because it was still unfinished.

877
00:42:47,565 --> 00:42:50,725
No, this was all jagged edges, and it still had the barrier around it.

878
00:42:51,385 --> 00:42:53,725
Oh, man. They made that table up here.

879
00:42:54,505 --> 00:42:56,585
You promised me it'd be finished before we got here.

880
00:42:56,665 --> 00:42:57,485
We were sprinting.

881
00:42:57,485 --> 00:42:59,525
I promised Thomas it'd be finished.

882
00:42:59,545 --> 00:43:01,205
It was insane. We were sprinting.

883
00:43:01,205 --> 00:43:06,065
But when they sanded this thing down, they put plastic wrap around the table.

884
00:43:06,425 --> 00:43:06,665
Yeah.

885
00:43:07,045 --> 00:43:09,205
The amount of sawdust that this threw.

886
00:43:10,205 --> 00:43:14,885
So when they finally finished it and polished it down, we got up here and we're like, great.

887
00:43:15,285 --> 00:43:17,585
This is an uninhabitable space now.

888
00:43:18,025 --> 00:43:19,665
This is like completely fucked.

889
00:43:21,505 --> 00:43:22,305
It's all right.

890
00:43:22,405 --> 00:43:23,225
Many such stories.

891
00:43:23,605 --> 00:43:24,185
It's a little big.

892
00:43:24,525 --> 00:43:25,265
It is big.

893
00:43:25,925 --> 00:43:26,745
It's a big table.

894
00:43:27,065 --> 00:43:28,865
Always worried that the legs are going to collapse.

895
00:43:29,385 --> 00:43:30,245
No, it's a great table.

896
00:43:30,245 --> 00:43:31,045
It's not too big.

897
00:43:31,205 --> 00:43:33,365
I mean, it's like half the size of the room, but it's not too big.

898
00:43:33,445 --> 00:43:34,185
It's good for Beirut.

899
00:43:34,445 --> 00:43:34,645
Cheers.

900
00:43:35,445 --> 00:43:36,125
Who are you, Jerk?

901
00:43:36,145 --> 00:43:36,505
Why are you here?

902
00:43:36,665 --> 00:43:39,345
I like a little cold beverage on a hot, sticky day.

903
00:43:40,345 --> 00:43:41,665
It's nice not wearing headphones.

904
00:43:42,765 --> 00:43:43,745
I find it distracting.

905
00:43:43,885 --> 00:43:44,345
I lock in.

906
00:43:44,405 --> 00:43:46,325
My ADHD benefits from the headphones.

907
00:43:46,425 --> 00:43:47,985
It feels like I'm on an airplane or something.

908
00:43:48,645 --> 00:43:49,665
What, wearing the headphones does?

909
00:43:49,665 --> 00:43:49,925
Yeah.

910
00:43:50,265 --> 00:43:51,225
I can just have like a-

911
00:43:51,225 --> 00:43:51,785
You can zone in.

912
00:43:51,825 --> 00:43:52,945
I can zone in easier.

913
00:43:52,945 --> 00:43:53,245
Yeah.

914
00:43:53,625 --> 00:43:54,305
I'm distracted.

915
00:43:54,545 --> 00:43:56,505
Yeah, but they don't look good on a bald head, so.

916
00:43:56,885 --> 00:43:58,565
My podcast, no headphones.

917
00:43:58,565 --> 00:44:03,625
and then you get this thing on the top of the head yeah i really do it's uh you know about that

918
00:44:03,625 --> 00:44:09,205
what wearing headphones for you know you get like the podcast or divot yeah the gamers that's real

919
00:44:09,205 --> 00:44:15,205
no it's definitely real is it yeah 100 what that's your little fontanelle your fontanelle

920
00:44:15,205 --> 00:44:20,405
yeah your fontanelle keep your damn hands off my fontanelle what do you it's like the soft spot

921
00:44:20,405 --> 00:44:26,885
for like little babies introduce stuff jack yeah uh i'm one of the pub key bros i'm one of the

922
00:44:26,885 --> 00:44:30,545
Pubkey Idiots, Thomas's partner.

923
00:44:31,745 --> 00:44:33,765
He came to me with this brilliant idea.

924
00:44:33,865 --> 00:44:34,365
I said, no.

925
00:44:34,885 --> 00:44:35,965
I said, that sounds terrible.

926
00:44:36,485 --> 00:44:37,485
How did you guys know each other?

927
00:44:39,025 --> 00:44:40,185
Through a mutual friend.

928
00:44:40,425 --> 00:44:40,725
Okay.

929
00:44:41,245 --> 00:44:44,305
And I used to have a cafe wine bar that he used to come into.

930
00:44:44,785 --> 00:44:46,665
And he would come in with his little collared shirt.

931
00:44:47,125 --> 00:44:48,005
It was very cute.

932
00:44:48,045 --> 00:44:49,585
He had hair like Ellen DeGeneres.

933
00:44:49,945 --> 00:44:50,885
But he's a nigh dick.

934
00:44:50,885 --> 00:44:53,265
And he was about 50 pounds heavier than he is now.

935
00:44:53,265 --> 00:44:56,865
And he was like, guys, guys, can I talk to you about Bitcoin?

936
00:44:56,885 --> 00:45:01,965
lord and savior bitcoin you really should get a bitcoin atm in here and i was like dude

937
00:45:01,965 --> 00:45:04,745
get your fat little friend out of here i don't want to hear anything

938
00:45:04,745 --> 00:45:12,305
uh such a sweet guy i always i always think of thomas like so fondly he was such like a

939
00:45:12,305 --> 00:45:19,465
such a sweet guy big smile on his face um bitcoiners are like that they're like uh what's that um

940
00:45:19,465 --> 00:45:24,325
who are the guys who go like knocking around on doors jehovah's witnesses they're like jehovah's

941
00:45:24,325 --> 00:45:28,385
witness, like very sweet, like Mormons kind of thing. You're like that.

942
00:45:28,545 --> 00:45:32,005
It is true. Yeah. We are kind of like the Jehovah's witnesses. Yeah.

943
00:45:32,245 --> 00:45:34,545
I've stopped that though. It doesn't work. It doesn't work.

944
00:45:34,545 --> 00:45:39,265
Like we did the, we tried to do comedy at the hot style takeover in Vegas.

945
00:45:39,305 --> 00:45:42,365
That was fucking great. I just saw just blank stares.

946
00:45:43,445 --> 00:45:45,805
The only people laughing were people who work at pub.

947
00:45:45,885 --> 00:45:48,985
Wait, did you do comedy as well? I was the fat guy in the beginning.

948
00:45:49,085 --> 00:45:50,905
No, I know you're the fat guy, but I didn't, I didn't get,

949
00:45:50,905 --> 00:45:52,285
I didn't get that to like the,

950
00:45:52,285 --> 00:45:54,065
you didn't get it.

951
00:45:54,065 --> 00:45:56,405
I did do like a little opening like segment.

952
00:45:56,405 --> 00:45:57,245
I came out on stage.

953
00:45:57,245 --> 00:45:58,365
I was like, hey, how we doing?

954
00:45:59,745 --> 00:46:00,665
I guess it wasn't comedy.

955
00:46:00,665 --> 00:46:02,385
There was a couple of like, you know, singers,

956
00:46:02,385 --> 00:46:03,545
but they did not land.

957
00:46:03,545 --> 00:46:05,385
I was just looking out at the crowd.

958
00:46:05,385 --> 00:46:08,545
Like people were like, just crickets.

959
00:46:08,545 --> 00:46:09,545
Yeah, that's brutal.

960
00:46:09,545 --> 00:46:10,625
That was a great event though.

961
00:46:10,625 --> 00:46:11,465
I've said a few times.

962
00:46:11,465 --> 00:46:12,485
I think the Bitcoiners don't really know

963
00:46:12,485 --> 00:46:13,965
like what to laugh at maybe.

964
00:46:13,965 --> 00:46:15,385
You were there at the first one too, right?

965
00:46:15,385 --> 00:46:16,345
In Nashville.

966
00:46:16,345 --> 00:46:19,545
I am not funny, but this has happened many times.

967
00:46:19,545 --> 00:46:21,085
What people haven't laughed at you?

968
00:46:21,085 --> 00:46:21,925
Yeah.

969
00:46:21,925 --> 00:46:23,385
Well, I mean, the one in Nashville,

970
00:46:23,385 --> 00:46:25,805
we had David Lucas from Kill Tony.

971
00:46:25,805 --> 00:46:27,045
Yeah, that was rough.

972
00:46:28,305 --> 00:46:30,385
I thought it was good.

973
00:46:30,385 --> 00:46:33,465
I don't think people told him the right vibe.

974
00:46:33,465 --> 00:46:34,645
They don't like inappropriate.

975
00:46:34,645 --> 00:46:35,845
They're family people.

976
00:46:35,845 --> 00:46:39,025
They're like, but these events are held at night,

977
00:46:39,025 --> 00:46:42,485
you know, at bars, like at eight o'clock, you know?

978
00:46:42,485 --> 00:46:44,525
Not the one in Nashville, that was in the afternoon.

979
00:46:44,525 --> 00:46:45,925
And like the first thing he came out,

980
00:46:45,925 --> 00:46:47,285
like there were a lot of kids sat in the front row

981
00:46:47,285 --> 00:46:48,605
and he was like, you should all have been a boy.

982
00:46:48,605 --> 00:46:49,445
I was like-

983
00:46:49,445 --> 00:46:51,625
In Vegas too, there was a front row.

984
00:46:51,725 --> 00:46:52,845
There was a kid, you know.

985
00:46:53,505 --> 00:46:54,825
But I think that-

986
00:46:54,825 --> 00:46:56,305
It's a family thing, Bitcoins.

987
00:46:56,405 --> 00:46:58,265
The first one was good for sure, the one in Nashville.

988
00:46:58,365 --> 00:47:00,365
But I think the event you guys did in Vegas

989
00:47:00,365 --> 00:47:02,905
might be the best Bitcoin side event I've ever been to.

990
00:47:03,025 --> 00:47:03,605
Oh, thank you.

991
00:47:03,685 --> 00:47:04,985
I think it's really cool that it's like,

992
00:47:05,645 --> 00:47:07,145
it's kind of getting a bit weird again.

993
00:47:07,445 --> 00:47:09,045
And I'm all here for the weirdness.

994
00:47:09,145 --> 00:47:09,585
Yeah, totally.

995
00:47:09,845 --> 00:47:13,645
Yeah, it was like a Bitcoin talent show.

996
00:47:13,845 --> 00:47:15,325
Yeah, or lack of talent show.

997
00:47:15,325 --> 00:47:16,265
Just like anyone, you know,

998
00:47:16,365 --> 00:47:17,585
you got a thing you want to do

999
00:47:17,585 --> 00:47:18,465
if you want to read some poetry?

1000
00:47:18,605 --> 00:47:19,525
like, get on up here.

1001
00:47:19,625 --> 00:47:20,725
You got to kill time somehow.

1002
00:47:20,985 --> 00:47:22,825
Yeah, and Jamal is a good host.

1003
00:47:22,985 --> 00:47:23,525
Yeah, for sure.

1004
00:47:23,545 --> 00:47:23,965
He's a great host.

1005
00:47:24,305 --> 00:47:24,745
For sure.

1006
00:47:24,745 --> 00:47:25,185
He's very Vegas.

1007
00:47:25,265 --> 00:47:26,325
He fits in perfectly in Vegas.

1008
00:47:26,325 --> 00:47:26,765
For sure.

1009
00:47:26,905 --> 00:47:27,625
He was in his element.

1010
00:47:27,825 --> 00:47:28,825
I'm sad that I missed it.

1011
00:47:29,045 --> 00:47:30,205
He doesn't really gamble, though.

1012
00:47:30,405 --> 00:47:31,105
It's about the-

1013
00:47:31,105 --> 00:47:31,385
That's not strange.

1014
00:47:31,385 --> 00:47:32,825
It's about the-

1015
00:47:32,825 --> 00:47:33,605
It was a work event.

1016
00:47:34,765 --> 00:47:35,725
It's about the culture.

1017
00:47:35,825 --> 00:47:36,465
I lost my family.

1018
00:47:36,925 --> 00:47:38,205
I think culture always wins.

1019
00:47:38,665 --> 00:47:40,105
And I disagree with Shinobi.

1020
00:47:40,465 --> 00:47:41,705
And Mr. Hoddle, I think,

1021
00:47:41,765 --> 00:47:43,205
understands my side

1022
00:47:43,205 --> 00:47:44,565
and Shinobi's side on this.

1023
00:47:44,665 --> 00:47:45,885
But I do think that

1024
00:47:45,885 --> 00:47:46,945
we are underestimating

1025
00:47:46,945 --> 00:47:50,965
the power of culture, you know, winning the day when it comes to Bitcoin.

1026
00:47:51,185 --> 00:47:51,425
Yeah.

1027
00:47:51,705 --> 00:47:55,025
I think we lose all of that if it's just about number go up.

1028
00:47:55,585 --> 00:47:58,505
But highlighting, you know, there are little things.

1029
00:47:58,625 --> 00:48:04,185
I think if you look at Bitcoin as an industry and you did something like a fertility rate

1030
00:48:04,185 --> 00:48:08,965
within Bitcoin, I think that Bitcoin is probably stacked up against lawyers and like bankers.

1031
00:48:08,965 --> 00:48:12,725
Like, you know, there's more and more kids at every single conference I go to.

1032
00:48:12,725 --> 00:48:19,545
you know just there's a there's a value set and that changes internationally but like within the

1033
00:48:19,545 --> 00:48:25,425
u.s bitcoin uh community or whatever you want to call it there is a certain value set there

1034
00:48:25,425 --> 00:48:30,645
and that changes when you go to europe or asia or south america africa um but they have their

1035
00:48:30,645 --> 00:48:37,045
own unique value or their set of values or things that they prioritize why they why they uh you know

1036
00:48:37,045 --> 00:48:41,345
are into something like bitcoin in the first place and what they hope to achieve for themselves and

1037
00:48:41,345 --> 00:48:45,285
their family. I think Germany is like the perfect example of that. Like German Bitcoiners are

1038
00:48:45,285 --> 00:48:49,185
fucking great, but they're really different to American Bitcoin. Very. They're like real cypher

1039
00:48:49,185 --> 00:48:53,725
punk Bitcoiners. Yes. Whereas like, I think America has become like super financialized Bitcoiners.

1040
00:48:53,805 --> 00:48:58,105
Yeah, I think so. But it's even different everywhere. It's, huh? They're not the same

1041
00:48:58,105 --> 00:49:02,745
everywhere. There are, there are, there are threads that are the same. We're all really weird.

1042
00:49:02,745 --> 00:49:06,725
The Germans still want to like homestead. These are still like homesteaders and want to like have

1043
00:49:06,725 --> 00:49:11,925
farm. I mean, probably. There's definitely like an underlying shared autism between all Bitcoiners.

1044
00:49:11,925 --> 00:49:16,165
Yeah, for sure. But even within the US, like, you know, the New York scene is very different

1045
00:49:16,165 --> 00:49:20,825
from the Houston scene. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, you get to like oil and gas and like the

1046
00:49:20,825 --> 00:49:27,305
energy touch points with mining. Here in New York is going to be much more financialized. San Francisco

1047
00:49:27,305 --> 00:49:30,665
is going to be very different as well. That's going to be more about like startup culture and,

1048
00:49:30,665 --> 00:49:35,205
you know, chasing VCs, begging for 10 minutes of their time in an elevator and stuff like that.

1049
00:49:35,205 --> 00:49:41,965
for sure um let's talk new york yeah what's going on you guys have got a election going on at the

1050
00:49:41,965 --> 00:49:48,445
moment right oh yeah yeah so who is this is what is this for mayor of new york so what's happening

1051
00:49:48,445 --> 00:49:53,405
right now is the primary okay and uh i actually posted about it this morning because we can learn

1052
00:49:53,405 --> 00:49:58,665
together you're a new yorker you should know this shit i'm like where do you vote i've never voted

1053
00:49:58,665 --> 00:50:04,145
for mayor so early voting's happening now what's what's today i think that today is voting no

1054
00:50:04,145 --> 00:50:06,845
No, tomorrow, the 24th is the voting day.

1055
00:50:06,945 --> 00:50:09,725
But voting day is now early voting plus voting day.

1056
00:50:09,825 --> 00:50:10,945
So you have like a week to vote.

1057
00:50:11,205 --> 00:50:12,905
Right now, they're doing the primaries.

1058
00:50:13,085 --> 00:50:18,605
But in New York, it's a near certainty that the Democrat nominee is going to win mayor and governor.

1059
00:50:18,885 --> 00:50:19,305
Is that Adams?

1060
00:50:19,925 --> 00:50:21,585
So Adams was a Democrat.

1061
00:50:21,745 --> 00:50:22,685
He's an independent now.

1062
00:50:22,785 --> 00:50:23,025
Okay.

1063
00:50:23,085 --> 00:50:23,865
And he's still running.

1064
00:50:24,525 --> 00:50:29,805
The Republican nominee, I think, is Curtis Siwa, who is the Guardian Angels, right?

1065
00:50:29,825 --> 00:50:30,225
Oh, yeah.

1066
00:50:30,345 --> 00:50:30,545
Yeah.

1067
00:50:31,005 --> 00:50:31,805
I always forget.

1068
00:50:31,805 --> 00:50:32,885
It's like the Red Berets.

1069
00:50:32,885 --> 00:50:37,885
They like, you know, went in kind of like a biker gang and cleaned up the subways in like the 80s and 90s and stuff.

1070
00:50:38,185 --> 00:50:41,205
Is this like, is it true that New York is just run by the mob essentially?

1071
00:50:42,245 --> 00:50:43,825
Not really anymore.

1072
00:50:44,165 --> 00:50:44,385
No.

1073
00:50:44,665 --> 00:50:45,645
Is this what that was though?

1074
00:50:45,845 --> 00:50:46,185
Yeah.

1075
00:50:46,345 --> 00:50:47,305
Well, sort of.

1076
00:50:47,505 --> 00:50:51,185
Like back in like the 60s, 70s and 80s, it was pretty rough.

1077
00:50:51,205 --> 00:50:54,065
Guardian Angels were, they were like a ragtag group of guys.

1078
00:50:54,065 --> 00:50:55,285
They were more like vigilantes.

1079
00:50:55,645 --> 00:50:55,885
Yeah.

1080
00:50:55,885 --> 00:50:59,085
And they wore a uniform and they patrolled the subway cars.

1081
00:50:59,185 --> 00:51:00,285
So the mob in uniform.

1082
00:51:00,485 --> 00:51:01,605
They were not the mob.

1083
00:51:01,605 --> 00:51:02,645
They were guys who did karate.

1084
00:51:02,645 --> 00:51:03,725
More like a biker gang.

1085
00:51:03,825 --> 00:51:04,405
Okay, yeah.

1086
00:51:04,805 --> 00:51:07,325
So the reason that's like relevant to Bitcoin is

1087
00:51:07,325 --> 00:51:10,565
there's been a lot of stuff promised by Adams on the Bitcoin side, right?

1088
00:51:10,785 --> 00:51:12,245
Yeah, he hasn't really done any of it though.

1089
00:51:12,265 --> 00:51:14,025
In terms of like, but what about the Bitcoin thing?

1090
00:51:14,025 --> 00:51:14,105
He's never been here.

1091
00:51:14,105 --> 00:51:14,525
Was that not?

1092
00:51:14,745 --> 00:51:15,825
He's never been here to my knowledge.

1093
00:51:15,825 --> 00:51:17,985
The Bitcoin thing was, he wanted to implement that for New York though, right?

1094
00:51:18,045 --> 00:51:20,085
I don't believe the mayor has the authority to do that.

1095
00:51:20,205 --> 00:51:20,505
They can-

1096
00:51:20,505 --> 00:51:21,365
Did he talk about it though?

1097
00:51:21,445 --> 00:51:24,825
He did talk about it at Gracie Mansion a couple of weeks ago or a month ago

1098
00:51:24,825 --> 00:51:27,085
when he had the like crypto summit thing.

1099
00:51:27,225 --> 00:51:28,345
It was like a luncheon or something.

1100
00:51:29,085 --> 00:51:30,685
That's where he introduced that concept.

1101
00:51:30,685 --> 00:51:34,225
But I think that the mayor has to just make a recommendation to the comptroller,

1102
00:51:34,365 --> 00:51:38,785
and then the comptroller would have more of a say in pushing that through.

1103
00:51:38,925 --> 00:51:40,425
Oh, so it's a bit of like a nothing promise.

1104
00:51:40,985 --> 00:51:41,545
Yeah, kind of.

1105
00:51:41,725 --> 00:51:45,445
Oh, so in terms of Bitcoin, this like mayoral election doesn't really matter?

1106
00:51:45,945 --> 00:51:46,145
No.

1107
00:51:46,445 --> 00:51:46,865
Oh, okay.

1108
00:51:46,885 --> 00:51:48,705
I thought there was actually more at stake with that.

1109
00:51:48,965 --> 00:51:52,865
And what about like all the shitty laws New York has around Bitcoin?

1110
00:51:54,045 --> 00:51:56,065
That's more on a state level than a city level.

1111
00:51:56,165 --> 00:51:56,405
Okay.

1112
00:51:56,405 --> 00:52:05,845
So the governor's race would be much more impactful if a Bitcoiner were in the governor's chair.

1113
00:52:06,385 --> 00:52:09,725
The governor has direct oversight of the New York Department of Financial Services.

1114
00:52:10,365 --> 00:52:15,565
They might not be able to completely repeal the BitLicense, but they can make really strong recommendations.

1115
00:52:15,805 --> 00:52:22,025
They can replace the commissioner of the NYDFS and install somebody that would effectively do that.

1116
00:52:22,365 --> 00:52:24,485
The governor's race is much more important than New York City.

1117
00:52:24,485 --> 00:52:26,565
And is there any chance of that actually happening?

1118
00:52:26,825 --> 00:52:27,745
Yeah, absolutely.

1119
00:52:28,265 --> 00:52:28,705
Soon?

1120
00:52:30,625 --> 00:52:35,385
So that primary, I think, happens later this year.

1121
00:52:35,565 --> 00:52:35,785
OK.

1122
00:52:35,885 --> 00:52:39,105
So I believe Hochul is going to run again.

1123
00:52:39,205 --> 00:52:39,885
She's the incumbent.

1124
00:52:41,105 --> 00:52:44,185
So, you know, this goes back to what I was just saying.

1125
00:52:44,385 --> 00:52:46,245
Like, the primary is basically the general.

1126
00:52:46,385 --> 00:52:51,165
So if you have a challenger from the Democratic Party able to unseat Hochul from that position,

1127
00:52:51,165 --> 00:52:57,005
then that individual has probably got a through line to the governor's office.

1128
00:52:58,085 --> 00:53:00,465
And we'll see what happens there.

1129
00:53:00,905 --> 00:53:03,565
Does the BitLicense have any impact on PubKey?

1130
00:53:05,385 --> 00:53:07,065
Not so much.

1131
00:53:07,145 --> 00:53:13,625
There's a carve-out for merchants to accept Bitcoin for goods and services.

1132
00:53:14,085 --> 00:53:15,925
We're not doing any exchanging.

1133
00:53:16,285 --> 00:53:18,665
It's more along the lines of a money service business.

1134
00:53:18,665 --> 00:53:22,245
and then also with Lightning transactions

1135
00:53:22,245 --> 00:53:23,985
there's an open-ended question as to whether

1136
00:53:23,985 --> 00:53:26,245
or not running a Lightning node triggers

1137
00:53:26,245 --> 00:53:28,985
some of these MSP money transmission laws

1138
00:53:28,985 --> 00:53:29,985
in the first place

1139
00:53:29,985 --> 00:53:33,145
we designed with Evan Kaloudis and Zeus' help

1140
00:53:33,145 --> 00:53:34,765
he's fantastic

1141
00:53:34,765 --> 00:53:38,925
he helped us set up the entire system here at PubKey

1142
00:53:38,925 --> 00:53:41,545
shout out to Zeus and Evan for sure

1143
00:53:41,545 --> 00:53:44,365
but we have basically a cul-de-sac

1144
00:53:44,365 --> 00:53:46,705
where the outbound transactions have an extremely high limit

1145
00:53:46,705 --> 00:53:50,305
It's something like hundreds of Bitcoins to send a routing transaction.

1146
00:53:51,205 --> 00:53:54,545
We're not the best network participants because of that,

1147
00:53:54,665 --> 00:53:58,725
but we have to do that to stay on the right side of the BitLicense.

1148
00:53:58,965 --> 00:53:59,405
Yeah, damn.

1149
00:53:59,545 --> 00:54:01,165
Okay, so let's talk about PubKey.

1150
00:54:01,505 --> 00:54:02,485
You guys are expanding.

1151
00:54:02,825 --> 00:54:04,185
This is now all public, right?

1152
00:54:04,365 --> 00:54:04,585
Yeah.

1153
00:54:04,805 --> 00:54:05,785
So tell everyone what you're doing.

1154
00:54:06,265 --> 00:54:07,405
We're going to DC next.

1155
00:54:07,765 --> 00:54:11,745
We are actively scouting the next three locations.

1156
00:54:11,965 --> 00:54:12,765
Oh, I didn't know that.

1157
00:54:12,765 --> 00:54:17,825
At the moment, one of the three will be in the US.

1158
00:54:17,945 --> 00:54:19,125
The other two will be international.

1159
00:54:19,545 --> 00:54:19,965
Very cool.

1160
00:54:21,025 --> 00:54:23,605
And we have a couple of other pop-ups.

1161
00:54:23,825 --> 00:54:25,185
So there's PubKey pop-ups.

1162
00:54:25,285 --> 00:54:26,545
There's PubKey residencies.

1163
00:54:27,465 --> 00:54:34,845
There are no franchises yet where somebody else can basically license the brand and, you know, we'll help them get stood up.

1164
00:54:34,885 --> 00:54:36,025
But they handled the operations.

1165
00:54:36,765 --> 00:54:49,768
That coming probably next year and then there basically just wholly owned like corporate pub keys DC is a big one for us It going to be massive as compared to pub key NYC

1166
00:54:50,707 --> 00:54:52,668
NYC is about 2,200 square feet.

1167
00:54:53,387 --> 00:54:54,468
DC is 12,000.

1168
00:54:54,907 --> 00:54:55,808
It's going to have a proper-

1169
00:54:55,808 --> 00:54:56,367
Across two floors.

1170
00:54:56,588 --> 00:54:57,188
It's two floors.

1171
00:54:57,268 --> 00:54:58,308
It's going to have a proper restaurant,

1172
00:54:58,448 --> 00:54:59,707
two bars, event space.

1173
00:55:00,348 --> 00:55:01,387
It's going to have two bars.

1174
00:55:01,568 --> 00:55:01,968
Two bars.

1175
00:55:01,968 --> 00:55:02,707
It has three bars.

1176
00:55:02,808 --> 00:55:03,528
It has three bars.

1177
00:55:03,707 --> 00:55:04,048
Damn.

1178
00:55:04,607 --> 00:55:05,648
That's a little hidden bar.

1179
00:55:06,127 --> 00:55:06,348
Oh.

1180
00:55:06,348 --> 00:55:07,907
Oh, members only.

1181
00:55:08,308 --> 00:55:09,968
And like, what's the plan with DC then?

1182
00:55:09,988 --> 00:55:10,887
What's the restaurant going to be?

1183
00:55:10,927 --> 00:55:11,548
Aren't you tired?

1184
00:55:12,188 --> 00:55:12,748
I'm exhausted.

1185
00:55:13,907 --> 00:55:14,268
Jeez.

1186
00:55:14,828 --> 00:55:16,407
Why are you not doing any of your work, Jack?

1187
00:55:16,707 --> 00:55:19,367
No, I pick out the drapes and the bar stools and stuff.

1188
00:55:19,808 --> 00:55:20,867
I'm the creative.

1189
00:55:21,008 --> 00:55:21,768
No, that's not true.

1190
00:55:21,848 --> 00:55:22,668
He's doing a ton of work.

1191
00:55:23,488 --> 00:55:24,088
It's a lot.

1192
00:55:24,168 --> 00:55:24,848
We're a small team.

1193
00:55:25,328 --> 00:55:27,907
Like, it kind of hit me when we did Oslo, Vegas,

1194
00:55:28,088 --> 00:55:29,748
kept New York running and, you know,

1195
00:55:29,748 --> 00:55:32,808
continued to make progress in building out DC.

1196
00:55:33,427 --> 00:55:35,367
It's pretty incredible for a small team

1197
00:55:35,367 --> 00:55:36,668
to pull that off that week.

1198
00:55:36,927 --> 00:55:37,748
You say it's a small team,

1199
00:55:37,788 --> 00:55:38,448
but it's definitely growing.

1200
00:55:38,528 --> 00:55:40,548
I've met like four people this trip

1201
00:55:40,548 --> 00:55:41,288
that I've never met before.

1202
00:55:41,528 --> 00:55:43,028
We're hiring, we're expanding,

1203
00:55:43,367 --> 00:55:45,468
you know, thanks to, you know,

1204
00:55:45,607 --> 00:55:47,788
our supporters and our backers.

1205
00:55:48,068 --> 00:55:48,968
We're in a good spot.

1206
00:55:50,468 --> 00:55:54,867
So DC, the target in DC are really staffers,

1207
00:55:54,988 --> 00:55:56,588
interns, lobbyists, policymakers,

1208
00:55:57,028 --> 00:55:59,068
the Bitcoin community, DC residents.

1209
00:55:59,068 --> 00:56:00,288
We want to do the same thing

1210
00:56:00,288 --> 00:56:03,348
on a bigger scale in DC

1211
00:56:03,348 --> 00:56:05,268
that we accomplished here.

1212
00:56:05,367 --> 00:56:08,068
But they're different cities, right?

1213
00:56:08,068 --> 00:56:18,028
So to have it be hyperlocal and fit DC, it's not going to be the same like New York dive bar that like, you know, private equity folks and New Yorkers love, know and love.

1214
00:56:18,188 --> 00:56:24,968
It's going to fit DC, which is a little bit more event driven, definitely more in the policy and regulatory realm.

1215
00:56:24,968 --> 00:56:32,168
um you know we we hope we hope that we're going to be able to facilitate curated conversations

1216
00:56:32,168 --> 00:56:36,968
around bitcoin because those staffers and interns and lobbyists are the ones that are writing this

1217
00:56:36,968 --> 00:56:42,068
stuff for the policymakers not everybody's going to be like ted cruz and cynthia lummis and like

1218
00:56:42,068 --> 00:56:45,607
actually get into the weeds and understand bitcoin i think those two are probably the

1219
00:56:45,607 --> 00:56:51,008
best example of politicians policymakers that like actually understand a fair amount of the

1220
00:56:51,008 --> 00:56:54,948
underpinning technology seems to understand it quite well gillibrand as well richie torridia

1221
00:56:54,948 --> 00:56:58,848
as well. There are many, there are many, but like, I was really impressed. Ted Cruz does

1222
00:56:58,848 --> 00:57:03,207
understand mining and Lummis is in like a class of her own. Yeah. She knows what's going on.

1223
00:57:03,668 --> 00:57:09,448
But, but that is true. Gillibrand has been here. You know, Lummis has been here. Torres has been

1224
00:57:09,448 --> 00:57:16,488
here. Those three like definitely have a much deeper level of understanding. I think it's

1225
00:57:16,488 --> 00:57:22,168
unrealistic to get like Pelosi and Schumer to that level or, you know, Mitch McConnell,

1226
00:57:22,168 --> 00:57:24,268
who's no longer there, but like whatever.

1227
00:57:25,227 --> 00:57:27,528
It's the staffers and the interns that get the project.

1228
00:57:27,707 --> 00:57:29,427
It's like, hey, young kid, come over here.

1229
00:57:29,528 --> 00:57:30,907
I need you to write something about Bitcoin.

1230
00:57:31,028 --> 00:57:32,407
I want it to be positive or negative.

1231
00:57:32,707 --> 00:57:34,127
Well, where do they go, right?

1232
00:57:34,148 --> 00:57:35,668
They go to some of the policy institutes.

1233
00:57:35,808 --> 00:57:37,308
They do their online research

1234
00:57:37,308 --> 00:57:39,588
and they see the FT in the Wall Street Journal

1235
00:57:39,588 --> 00:57:40,468
and the New York Times.

1236
00:57:40,648 --> 00:57:43,188
They go on Twitter and it's a fucking shit show.

1237
00:57:43,668 --> 00:57:46,427
Like, you know, we want to be able to facilitate a place

1238
00:57:46,427 --> 00:57:48,248
where we're hosting events.

1239
00:57:48,387 --> 00:57:50,348
We're helping curate the conversation

1240
00:57:50,348 --> 00:57:53,568
with the Bitcoin Policy Institute, Coin Center,

1241
00:57:53,768 --> 00:57:53,887
and other folks.

1242
00:57:53,887 --> 00:57:54,707
Because you're going to co-locate

1243
00:57:54,707 --> 00:57:55,627
with Bitcoin Policy Institute.

1244
00:57:55,648 --> 00:57:57,168
Bitcoin Policy Institute's headquarters

1245
00:57:57,168 --> 00:57:58,048
is going to be in PubKey.

1246
00:57:58,107 --> 00:57:59,607
We're not announcing that until tomorrow,

1247
00:57:59,727 --> 00:58:00,288
but I think-

1248
00:58:00,288 --> 00:58:01,548
Perfect, this won't be out before tomorrow.

1249
00:58:01,627 --> 00:58:02,088
There we go.

1250
00:58:02,568 --> 00:58:03,407
That's very cool.

1251
00:58:03,568 --> 00:58:03,727
Yeah.

1252
00:58:04,107 --> 00:58:06,828
And so obviously, they're the reasons why DC.

1253
00:58:06,948 --> 00:58:08,288
I always thought it was going to be Philly next.

1254
00:58:08,348 --> 00:58:09,127
You always talked about Philly.

1255
00:58:10,168 --> 00:58:11,227
It was for a while.

1256
00:58:11,328 --> 00:58:12,248
It was for a while.

1257
00:58:12,248 --> 00:58:15,248
The capabilities that we had-

1258
00:58:15,867 --> 00:58:18,308
The people who live there are just the fucking worst.

1259
00:58:18,308 --> 00:58:20,688
Shout out to all the Philly listeners.

1260
00:58:21,048 --> 00:58:22,548
There's a really good crew in Philly,

1261
00:58:22,688 --> 00:58:25,568
the Bitcoin John and Matt Keita and Andrew Hans.

1262
00:58:26,387 --> 00:58:29,168
Has Matt Keita got his drink here yet with Joe Squaw?

1263
00:58:29,288 --> 00:58:29,887
No, not yet.

1264
00:58:29,968 --> 00:58:30,407
That's coming.

1265
00:58:30,808 --> 00:58:31,308
Is it happening?

1266
00:58:31,607 --> 00:58:33,008
Yeah, I think that they're in touch.

1267
00:58:33,168 --> 00:58:34,668
I saw him reply to one of his tweets,

1268
00:58:34,788 --> 00:58:36,407
but I didn't know if it was actually happening.

1269
00:58:36,688 --> 00:58:36,848
Yeah.

1270
00:58:38,048 --> 00:58:40,188
No, I believe it's in motion.

1271
00:58:40,188 --> 00:58:42,668
God, he's been working on that for almost a year at this point.

1272
00:58:42,668 --> 00:58:51,387
So, you know, it was Philly for a little bit in terms of our organic growth, just what we were accomplishing here.

1273
00:58:51,508 --> 00:58:55,988
And I would say the financial realities of Philadelphia, that was a better fit for us.

1274
00:58:56,808 --> 00:59:03,887
We had supporters come in and say the conversations in D.C., you know, Bitcoin is becoming a really impactful topic.

1275
00:59:03,887 --> 00:59:05,927
And we saw that this happened before the elections.

1276
00:59:05,927 --> 00:59:22,188
But, you know, with the elections at the presidential level, Senator in Ohio, you know, Bernie Moreno unseats Sherrod Brown, who was one of the longest, I'd say, like, lieutenants of Elizabeth Warren in her war against Bitcoin.

1277
00:59:22,188 --> 00:59:30,668
The impact is real. So both sides are paying attention. And there's a lot of, I would say,

1278
00:59:31,008 --> 00:59:36,427
dark money from broader crypto and Ripple swirling around, and it's getting really confusing.

1279
00:59:36,988 --> 00:59:42,127
So if we can help elevate the great work that Bitcoin Policy Institute and other folks are

1280
00:59:42,127 --> 00:59:48,648
doing there, give it a home and invite people in to have some beers and some good food to

1281
00:59:48,648 --> 00:59:52,688
help facilitate that, then, you know, I'd consider it a success.

1282
00:59:52,887 --> 00:59:56,127
Totally. It's important stuff to do. Is the Ripple money still flowing like it was? Are

1283
00:59:56,127 --> 00:59:57,828
they still like attacking Bitcoin in the same way?

1284
00:59:57,927 --> 00:59:58,627
They got a lot of money.

1285
00:59:58,828 --> 00:59:59,868
I know they got a lot of money.

1286
00:59:59,868 --> 01:00:00,427
They make their own.

1287
01:00:00,788 --> 01:00:03,968
They do. They do. That is a little cheat code.

1288
01:00:04,887 --> 01:00:05,868
It's a great one.

1289
01:00:07,028 --> 01:00:08,568
But are they still attacking Bitcoin?

1290
01:00:09,508 --> 01:00:16,368
You know, there have been some positive overtures. I've heard conflicting reports. I think the

1291
01:00:16,368 --> 01:00:20,308
The administration and David Sachs put some distance.

1292
01:00:20,488 --> 01:00:21,927
I think they were plowing a lot of money in,

1293
01:00:22,028 --> 01:00:23,808
and then they put some distance because they were like,

1294
01:00:23,887 --> 01:00:24,988
no, we really like Bitcoin.

1295
01:00:26,008 --> 01:00:28,188
So, you know, there's been some public statements

1296
01:00:28,188 --> 01:00:30,688
from Garlinghouse that are a little bit more olive branchy,

1297
01:00:30,768 --> 01:00:32,448
but like, come on, they, you know,

1298
01:00:32,508 --> 01:00:34,468
funded the Greenpeace attack.

1299
01:00:34,607 --> 01:00:35,268
They funded-

1300
01:00:35,268 --> 01:00:37,087
My favorite part about that attack is that

1301
01:00:37,087 --> 01:00:40,168
that statue thing they built, the head,

1302
01:00:40,288 --> 01:00:42,907
is now like the coolest piece of Bitcoin art in the world.

1303
01:00:42,907 --> 01:00:43,188
I know.

1304
01:00:43,407 --> 01:00:45,707
We're the most annoying kids on the playground.

1305
01:00:45,707 --> 01:00:47,207
We're impossible to make fun of.

1306
01:00:47,328 --> 01:00:47,387
Yeah.

1307
01:00:47,508 --> 01:00:48,268
We will just take-

1308
01:00:48,268 --> 01:00:48,528
Because they do this thing.

1309
01:00:48,607 --> 01:00:49,568
We're like, that's fucking cool.

1310
01:00:49,568 --> 01:00:50,427
We're like, we love it.

1311
01:00:50,508 --> 01:00:50,828
Yeah.

1312
01:00:51,028 --> 01:00:51,528
We are.

1313
01:00:51,927 --> 01:00:52,348
Do more.

1314
01:00:52,348 --> 01:00:52,948
That's who we are.

1315
01:00:53,068 --> 01:00:53,468
Do more.

1316
01:00:55,788 --> 01:00:56,528
It's so good.

1317
01:00:56,607 --> 01:00:58,188
So anyhow, from where the next one's going to be,

1318
01:00:58,207 --> 01:00:58,927
or can you not say yet?

1319
01:00:59,328 --> 01:00:59,907
Not yet.

1320
01:01:00,087 --> 01:01:00,468
Where are you looking?

1321
01:01:02,008 --> 01:01:07,868
So population dense cities across the US and internationally.

1322
01:01:07,988 --> 01:01:08,488
So close.

1323
01:01:08,508 --> 01:01:10,028
With Bitcoin communities.

1324
01:01:10,207 --> 01:01:12,048
Well, when you do the franchise, I'll open one in Australia.

1325
01:01:12,848 --> 01:01:13,648
I would love that.

1326
01:01:13,788 --> 01:01:14,248
I would love that.

1327
01:01:14,268 --> 01:01:14,887
It's very far.

1328
01:01:14,887 --> 01:01:16,927
It is very far, but it doesn't matter if it's a franchise.

1329
01:01:17,248 --> 01:01:17,727
It'd be awesome.

1330
01:01:17,968 --> 01:01:18,627
I think it would work.

1331
01:01:18,768 --> 01:01:19,548
I think it would work.

1332
01:01:19,707 --> 01:01:20,887
Look, there's Bitcoiners everywhere.

1333
01:01:21,348 --> 01:01:28,348
And the idea is to be hyper-local and focus on what that community and what that city needs and how they approach Bitcoin, right?

1334
01:01:28,587 --> 01:01:32,048
The same tactic of sort of burying it and making a good place.

1335
01:01:32,927 --> 01:01:36,907
It's what makes PubKey really hard, but it also what I think is working.

1336
01:01:37,828 --> 01:01:40,207
Hospitality is a soul-crushing business.

1337
01:01:40,268 --> 01:01:43,008
Yeah, as soon as I started a franchise, I was like, I don't want to work in hospitality.

1338
01:01:43,008 --> 01:01:45,107
It's very difficult to get it right.

1339
01:01:45,188 --> 01:01:46,087
But if you get it right,

1340
01:01:46,368 --> 01:01:49,148
then people treat it like, you know, another home

1341
01:01:49,148 --> 01:01:51,308
and they're comfortable and they come back

1342
01:01:51,308 --> 01:01:52,288
and they become regulars,

1343
01:01:52,868 --> 01:01:54,288
whether it's for the food or the drinks

1344
01:01:54,288 --> 01:01:56,387
or the vibe and atmosphere, it doesn't matter.

1345
01:01:56,808 --> 01:01:58,068
You're able to do a lot with that

1346
01:01:58,068 --> 01:02:00,227
in terms of where you want to steer the conversation.

1347
01:02:00,648 --> 01:02:03,727
Jerk, are you going to be able to keep the DC branch weird?

1348
01:02:05,168 --> 01:02:09,188
Well, do you like the smell of smoked salami?

1349
01:02:10,008 --> 01:02:10,328
Because...

1350
01:02:10,328 --> 01:02:11,768
That's a tricky question to answer.

1351
01:02:11,768 --> 01:02:13,468
I don't know if I do.

1352
01:02:14,627 --> 01:02:16,268
Well, the answer is yes, you do.

1353
01:02:16,328 --> 01:02:16,627
Okay.

1354
01:02:17,328 --> 01:02:19,887
Because that's what PubKey DC smells like.

1355
01:02:19,927 --> 01:02:21,668
And we're going to keep it, and it's going to be part of the brand.

1356
01:02:21,968 --> 01:02:23,727
How are you going to keep the smell of smoked salami?

1357
01:02:23,788 --> 01:02:25,968
It was a barbecue restaurant for like 17 years.

1358
01:02:26,068 --> 01:02:26,788
Okay, nice.

1359
01:02:27,308 --> 01:02:28,727
So we don't have a choice.

1360
01:02:30,107 --> 01:02:31,427
So salami t-shirts.

1361
01:02:31,448 --> 01:02:32,107
It's in the walls.

1362
01:02:32,587 --> 01:02:33,488
No, it does not.

1363
01:02:33,607 --> 01:02:34,688
It smells like brisket.

1364
01:02:35,548 --> 01:02:36,407
That'll dissipate.

1365
01:02:36,887 --> 01:02:37,048
Yeah.

1366
01:02:37,227 --> 01:02:38,008
With time.

1367
01:02:38,528 --> 01:02:40,587
We burn a little sage in there.

1368
01:02:40,587 --> 01:02:41,808
it's going to go a long way.

1369
01:02:41,808 --> 01:02:43,248
We're going to exercise some demons.

1370
01:02:43,607 --> 01:02:45,268
So are you going to get smoked salami t-shirts?

1371
01:02:45,568 --> 01:02:46,127
Yeah, I think so.

1372
01:02:46,168 --> 01:02:47,407
I think we just have to embrace it.

1373
01:02:47,627 --> 01:02:48,508
Yeah, I think you should.

1374
01:02:48,808 --> 01:02:49,288
I'm excited.

1375
01:02:49,348 --> 01:02:50,008
I'm excited to see it.

1376
01:02:50,048 --> 01:02:50,768
Are we going to go see it tomorrow?

1377
01:02:51,548 --> 01:02:54,127
Yeah, we can do a little private tour for you, anything.

1378
01:02:54,727 --> 01:02:55,308
There you go.

1379
01:02:55,907 --> 01:02:58,488
We are in the process of interviewing chefs.

1380
01:02:59,587 --> 01:03:02,488
You'd be shocked, the quality of resumes

1381
01:03:02,488 --> 01:03:04,587
and people that are excited about this coming to DC.

1382
01:03:05,048 --> 01:03:05,407
Interesting.

1383
01:03:05,407 --> 01:03:08,028
Like bonafide, like pre-coin chefs, right?

1384
01:03:08,107 --> 01:03:09,848
Like bonafide chefs are-

1385
01:03:09,848 --> 01:03:11,008
Why do they even know about PubKey?

1386
01:03:11,748 --> 01:03:12,948
They saw it in the news.

1387
01:03:13,068 --> 01:03:14,607
They saw our reputation online.

1388
01:03:14,927 --> 01:03:16,087
These Fox News appearances are working.

1389
01:03:16,488 --> 01:03:16,848
Yeah.

1390
01:03:17,048 --> 01:03:19,968
I mean, you know, we have good reviews.

1391
01:03:21,087 --> 01:03:23,068
You know, people rave about the burger and the atmosphere.

1392
01:03:23,308 --> 01:03:24,887
Some of them come and check it out, and they're like,

1393
01:03:24,927 --> 01:03:27,348
I don't know exactly what's going on here, but it's fucking cool.

1394
01:03:28,627 --> 01:03:32,288
And it's special to see that, like, other people are picking up on it

1395
01:03:32,288 --> 01:03:37,248
and appreciating, you know, the soul-crushingly hard work that it's been.

1396
01:03:37,668 --> 01:03:38,568
Are you going to work in London?

1397
01:03:39,127 --> 01:03:39,368
Huh?

1398
01:03:39,368 --> 01:03:40,328
Are you going to open in London?

1399
01:03:40,427 --> 01:03:40,927
I would love to.

1400
01:03:41,268 --> 01:03:45,207
You know, so many pubs, like historic pubs are closing.

1401
01:03:45,207 --> 01:03:47,248
How many pubs are closing in the UK?

1402
01:03:47,607 --> 01:03:48,468
It's like two a week.

1403
01:03:48,607 --> 01:03:49,508
It's wild.

1404
01:03:49,668 --> 01:03:50,148
Why is that?

1405
01:03:51,048 --> 01:03:52,048
I really don't know.

1406
01:03:52,048 --> 01:03:52,468
It's a bunch of things.

1407
01:03:52,648 --> 01:03:53,207
It's the rent.

1408
01:03:53,387 --> 01:03:54,968
It's drinking habits.

1409
01:03:55,788 --> 01:03:56,568
You know, they're losing.

1410
01:03:56,668 --> 01:03:57,127
They have that problem too.

1411
01:03:57,227 --> 01:03:58,308
Yeah, young people don't drink.

1412
01:03:58,748 --> 01:03:59,907
I thought that was just us.

1413
01:03:59,968 --> 01:04:00,448
No, we need to.

1414
01:04:00,448 --> 01:04:01,028
I thought that was just NYU.

1415
01:04:01,107 --> 01:04:02,107
We need to fix the youth.

1416
01:04:02,427 --> 01:04:03,648
Like they just don't drink the same way.

1417
01:04:03,768 --> 01:04:04,028
Yeah.

1418
01:04:04,707 --> 01:04:05,808
And I don't know if that's good.

1419
01:04:05,808 --> 01:04:06,368
One good war.

1420
01:04:07,008 --> 01:04:07,288
Yeah.

1421
01:04:07,707 --> 01:04:08,407
One war.

1422
01:04:08,407 --> 01:04:10,648
Well, we might be on the brink of it.

1423
01:04:12,028 --> 01:04:19,948
No, the UK, I think those problems are a little bit more like macro, like lots of millionaires, like a lot of money's leaving the UK.

1424
01:04:21,048 --> 01:04:25,907
So I think that that's a symptom of like a much more complicated disease there.

1425
01:04:26,508 --> 01:04:28,288
But yeah, that would be a dream.

1426
01:04:28,368 --> 01:04:29,248
I'd love to go in.

1427
01:04:29,468 --> 01:04:30,988
And that's how PubKey started.

1428
01:04:30,988 --> 01:04:37,988
My wife and I lived nearby here, and we've been coming to the predecessor bars since like 2006.

1429
01:04:38,407 --> 01:04:44,568
from 2000 and well when we started coming here had been there since like the 90s but it closed

1430
01:04:44,568 --> 01:04:49,627
in 2010 and it was the most iconic new york dive bar it was just a what was it called before it's

1431
01:04:49,627 --> 01:04:54,048
called the stone crow and it was great people still come in and they're like this used to be

1432
01:04:54,048 --> 01:04:59,688
the crow and it's like yeah um then it reopened as like a really nice neighborhood tavern just

1433
01:04:59,688 --> 01:05:05,207
like no frills just a a a classic fastball tavern and that was great that closed in covid

1434
01:05:05,207 --> 01:05:13,808
And the idea was, like, if we lose all these things in COVID and we're just jammed onto remote work and Zoom, like, we're going to become, like, Bugman.

1435
01:05:14,668 --> 01:05:21,248
And that was sort of, like, a scary thing in, you know, 2021 and 2022.

1436
01:05:21,248 --> 01:05:27,907
too. So, you know, if PubKey can play a role where we're rehabilitating the way things were,

1437
01:05:28,048 --> 01:05:33,227
tapping into nostalgia and the importance of this place, and then recultivating how these places

1438
01:05:33,227 --> 01:05:38,688
were used for, you know, real discourse and disagreement and fomenting of revolutions,

1439
01:05:38,688 --> 01:05:42,688
that would be awesome. So an English pub is very, very top of mind.

1440
01:05:43,127 --> 01:05:47,607
Nice. I think it's really cool what you guys have done for the Bitcoin space in New York as well.

1441
01:05:47,607 --> 01:05:51,127
Like it feels like you're definitely the hub in New York,

1442
01:05:51,188 --> 01:05:52,808
but it feels like that's also bringing people in.

1443
01:05:53,168 --> 01:05:55,048
And like during COVID or just after COVID,

1444
01:05:55,168 --> 01:05:57,627
like everyone seemed to be moving to like Austin and Nashville.

1445
01:05:58,028 --> 01:06:00,528
And now when I go to those places, everyone's looking, yeah, in Miami,

1446
01:06:00,727 --> 01:06:02,688
everyone's like, how's New York?

1447
01:06:02,727 --> 01:06:04,227
And if you say you've had a really good time there,

1448
01:06:04,328 --> 01:06:06,148
like the city's good, they're like, fuck.

1449
01:06:06,488 --> 01:06:08,488
Like I have this conversation with Harry all the time.

1450
01:06:08,568 --> 01:06:10,448
Whenever I tell him I really like New York, he's like, ah.

1451
01:06:10,648 --> 01:06:11,328
Sold the bottom.

1452
01:06:11,688 --> 01:06:13,707
I totally sold the bottom. I'm sorry, Harry.

1453
01:06:14,087 --> 01:06:14,988
It is getting better.

1454
01:06:14,988 --> 01:06:19,008
Like, you know, New York is not completely back.

1455
01:06:19,127 --> 01:06:20,068
It's not completely saved.

1456
01:06:20,707 --> 01:06:26,907
But, you know, New York has an ability to move way faster and change itself than, you know, just about any other city on the planet.

1457
01:06:27,828 --> 01:06:31,648
And New Yorkers don't really tolerate shitty experiences for that long.

1458
01:06:32,468 --> 01:06:34,188
I think it's on an uptrend.

1459
01:06:34,308 --> 01:06:37,468
But, you know, we're one communist mayor away from the downtrend.

1460
01:06:37,607 --> 01:06:38,488
So we'll see what happens.

1461
01:06:38,727 --> 01:06:38,848
True.

1462
01:06:39,107 --> 01:06:39,748
Scary stuff.

1463
01:06:39,927 --> 01:06:41,788
And I love New York apart from when it's this hot.

1464
01:06:41,868 --> 01:06:42,627
Like, I am dying.

1465
01:06:42,848 --> 01:06:43,368
It's brutal.

1466
01:06:43,368 --> 01:06:44,207
It's the best.

1467
01:06:44,207 --> 01:06:44,948
DC is going to be worse.

1468
01:06:45,248 --> 01:06:45,627
Is it?

1469
01:06:45,828 --> 01:06:46,188
Much.

1470
01:06:46,308 --> 01:06:46,448
Yeah.

1471
01:06:46,768 --> 01:06:47,368
Oh, fuck.

1472
01:06:47,427 --> 01:06:48,587
I've got to wear a suit there as well.

1473
01:06:48,727 --> 01:06:49,688
I'm not wearing a suit.

1474
01:06:49,887 --> 01:06:50,248
Really?

1475
01:06:50,868 --> 01:06:51,508
You're not wearing a suit?

1476
01:06:51,568 --> 01:06:52,607
I am not wearing a suit.

1477
01:06:52,887 --> 01:06:54,707
I'm going to do like jeans and a blazer probably.

1478
01:06:54,848 --> 01:06:55,028
No.

1479
01:06:55,268 --> 01:06:55,948
I'm not doing a suit.

1480
01:06:55,948 --> 01:06:56,707
You've got to wear a suit.

1481
01:06:56,808 --> 01:06:57,748
You've got no fucking respect.

1482
01:06:58,028 --> 01:06:58,168
Yeah.

1483
01:06:58,808 --> 01:06:59,868
It's not a respect thing.

1484
01:06:59,968 --> 01:07:01,607
That is business attire for me.

1485
01:07:02,148 --> 01:07:03,548
Yeah, but not for everyone else who's there.

1486
01:07:05,168 --> 01:07:06,907
It's going to be too hot.

1487
01:07:07,668 --> 01:07:08,028
Damn.

1488
01:07:08,868 --> 01:07:09,907
What else is going on publicly?

1489
01:07:10,068 --> 01:07:10,148
Damn.

1490
01:07:10,268 --> 01:07:12,828
Anything we've not talked about that you want to shill?

1491
01:07:14,988 --> 01:07:22,627
god we got a lot of stuff coming up um you know dc is you know a couple months out um we continue

1492
01:07:22,627 --> 01:07:27,607
the the bitcoin programming here we have uh leopoldo lopez here on friday and this will come

1493
01:07:27,607 --> 01:07:34,488
probably after that yeah it will um but we'll post um those and we're we're um very grateful

1494
01:07:34,488 --> 01:07:39,907
and fortunate to get these awesome guests from hrf um yeah we got a lot of really great things

1495
01:07:39,907 --> 01:07:44,488
coming up the summer is always a little bit slow right like people get out of the city because of

1496
01:07:44,488 --> 01:07:46,068
the oppressive heat and humidity.

1497
01:07:46,948 --> 01:07:48,648
So it comes at a good time.

1498
01:07:49,048 --> 01:07:50,948
July and August is a bit of a reset

1499
01:07:50,948 --> 01:07:52,688
that we can focus on

1500
01:07:52,688 --> 01:07:54,707
and then hit the ground running again

1501
01:07:54,707 --> 01:07:56,168
when it starts to cool off in September.

1502
01:07:56,887 --> 01:07:57,248
Very cool.

1503
01:07:57,448 --> 01:07:58,648
I'll be at Honey Badger probably.

1504
01:07:58,848 --> 01:07:59,308
Oh, me too.

1505
01:07:59,488 --> 01:07:59,808
Excellent.

1506
01:08:00,087 --> 01:08:00,707
I've never been.

1507
01:08:00,988 --> 01:08:02,788
It's probably my favorite conference.

1508
01:08:03,028 --> 01:08:03,348
Interesting.

1509
01:08:03,348 --> 01:08:04,048
Aside from T-Code.

1510
01:08:04,127 --> 01:08:05,568
I've never been to Eastern Europe at all,

1511
01:08:05,607 --> 01:08:06,607
so I'm quite looking forward to that.

1512
01:08:07,488 --> 01:08:08,968
Riga is a very special place.

1513
01:08:09,268 --> 01:08:11,028
It's a really awesome city.

1514
01:08:11,148 --> 01:08:12,768
It's like a medieval Baltic city.

1515
01:08:13,568 --> 01:08:15,207
People are super, super friendly.

1516
01:08:16,208 --> 01:08:17,468
And it's small.

1517
01:08:18,047 --> 01:08:20,648
So Honey Badger kind of takes over.

1518
01:08:20,808 --> 01:08:24,148
It's kind of like cheat code where you're running around Bedford

1519
01:08:24,148 --> 01:08:26,868
and you just see Bitcoiners sort of everywhere.

1520
01:08:28,027 --> 01:08:30,527
That's what Honey Badger's been for a pretty long time.

1521
01:08:30,708 --> 01:08:31,127
I'm excited.

1522
01:08:31,227 --> 01:08:32,408
We've got big plans for Bedford next year.

1523
01:08:32,428 --> 01:08:33,008
Are you coming back?

1524
01:08:33,547 --> 01:08:34,227
Of course.

1525
01:08:34,368 --> 01:08:35,648
We didn't do the pub key pop-up this year.

1526
01:08:35,648 --> 01:08:36,348
We've got to do it again.

1527
01:08:36,527 --> 01:08:38,648
Well, I don't know if we're ready to announce anything yet,

1528
01:08:38,727 --> 01:08:39,968
but we'll be there.

1529
01:08:40,928 --> 01:08:41,968
Oh, I don't even know.

1530
01:08:41,968 --> 01:08:42,888
Should I know this?

1531
01:08:44,547 --> 01:08:45,648
You've been speaking to Peter.

1532
01:08:46,047 --> 01:08:46,688
I'm excited.

1533
01:08:46,788 --> 01:08:47,987
He couldn't come this time, jerk.

1534
01:08:48,268 --> 01:08:49,368
You didn't come the first year, did you?

1535
01:08:49,408 --> 01:08:49,587
I am, yeah.

1536
01:08:50,308 --> 01:08:51,127
Did you come the first year?

1537
01:08:51,148 --> 01:08:51,868
No, no, no.

1538
01:08:52,127 --> 01:08:52,468
Cheat code?

1539
01:08:52,727 --> 01:08:52,928
Yeah.

1540
01:08:53,107 --> 01:08:53,928
Yeah, I will be there.

1541
01:08:54,208 --> 01:08:54,708
Yeah, good.

1542
01:08:54,908 --> 01:08:55,468
It was fun.

1543
01:08:55,527 --> 01:08:57,587
Apart from like you got kicked out of your own pop-up.

1544
01:08:58,688 --> 01:08:59,047
No?

1545
01:08:59,368 --> 01:09:01,587
No, they didn't let us back in the next night.

1546
01:09:01,708 --> 01:09:03,547
Yeah, so the first year we hosted a pop-up

1547
01:09:03,547 --> 01:09:04,888
at like a local pub.

1548
01:09:05,667 --> 01:09:07,487
And then they were happy.

1549
01:09:07,908 --> 01:09:09,107
We tipped well.

1550
01:09:09,248 --> 01:09:09,968
We packed the place out.

1551
01:09:09,968 --> 01:09:12,127
It will have been their busiest night of the year, probably.

1552
01:09:12,248 --> 01:09:13,828
They got kind of run over.

1553
01:09:14,027 --> 01:09:14,648
This was in Bedford.

1554
01:09:14,748 --> 01:09:15,928
They got kind of run over that night.

1555
01:09:16,167 --> 01:09:16,908
We got in a fight in Oslo.

1556
01:09:17,047 --> 01:09:17,587
We went back.

1557
01:09:17,708 --> 01:09:21,667
He's like another man on these European...

1558
01:09:21,667 --> 01:09:23,067
Who did you get in a fight with, Thomas?

1559
01:09:23,107 --> 01:09:24,308
We got in a fight with...

1560
01:09:24,308 --> 01:09:25,808
At the bar, we got in a fight.

1561
01:09:26,348 --> 01:09:27,667
No, no, that was PK.

1562
01:09:27,928 --> 01:09:28,908
I don't want you to tell the story.

1563
01:09:28,968 --> 01:09:29,667
I want Joe to tell the story.

1564
01:09:29,667 --> 01:09:30,268
We did get in a fight.

1565
01:09:30,268 --> 01:09:31,667
It'll be way more entertaining if Joe tells the story.

1566
01:09:31,667 --> 01:09:31,788
We got in a fight.

1567
01:09:31,888 --> 01:09:35,627
We threw the glass at the cab, and then there was a whole hubbub.

1568
01:09:35,627 --> 01:09:37,808
This was his friend from kindergarten.

1569
01:09:38,107 --> 01:09:38,848
Tell me the story.

1570
01:09:38,848 --> 01:09:39,688
Tell me the story.

1571
01:09:39,688 --> 01:09:40,708
nothing to do with this.

1572
01:09:40,708 --> 01:09:43,487
There was a fight at the pub that we went to every single night.

1573
01:09:43,547 --> 01:09:44,508
You threw a glass at a car.

1574
01:09:44,848 --> 01:09:46,708
No, no, there was no.

1575
01:09:46,888 --> 01:09:47,447
Someone did.

1576
01:09:48,227 --> 01:09:50,248
So, so there was a fight between two guys.

1577
01:09:50,487 --> 01:09:56,027
One of them was a friend of ours and a glass hit a cab and the cab got involved.

1578
01:09:56,107 --> 01:09:56,928
The cabbie got involved.

1579
01:09:57,027 --> 01:09:58,408
And then the three of them were going at it.

1580
01:09:58,468 --> 01:10:02,607
And Thomas came out of the bar and this is, I'm his protector.

1581
01:10:02,748 --> 01:10:05,107
I just took him and I just ushered him back inside.

1582
01:10:05,107 --> 01:10:06,188
I'm like, don't, you don't need to see this.

1583
01:10:06,408 --> 01:10:07,227
Come back inside.

1584
01:10:07,567 --> 01:10:08,447
He's like, what's going on?

1585
01:10:09,688 --> 01:10:11,587
I was like, Tom's back.

1586
01:10:11,828 --> 01:10:12,368
Back in.

1587
01:10:14,167 --> 01:10:16,087
Come on, I want to show you something.

1588
01:10:16,288 --> 01:10:16,408
Yeah.

1589
01:10:16,808 --> 01:10:19,087
The only thing I miss about the Miami conference

1590
01:10:19,087 --> 01:10:21,428
is the pub key pop-up at Mac Club Deuce's.

1591
01:10:21,748 --> 01:10:22,607
We went back.

1592
01:10:22,688 --> 01:10:24,188
We were scouting a location in Miami.

1593
01:10:24,587 --> 01:10:25,968
And just a couple months ago,

1594
01:10:25,968 --> 01:10:27,268
we went back to Mac Club Deuce.

1595
01:10:27,408 --> 01:10:29,508
And it was so great.

1596
01:10:30,008 --> 01:10:30,848
Just walking in.

1597
01:10:30,848 --> 01:10:31,808
It's one of my favorite bars in the world.

1598
01:10:31,828 --> 01:10:32,547
Just walking in.

1599
01:10:32,567 --> 01:10:33,487
It is so great.

1600
01:10:33,708 --> 01:10:35,388
It's one of the best bars in the world.

1601
01:10:35,468 --> 01:10:37,027
It's horrible, but amazing.

1602
01:10:37,167 --> 01:10:38,928
It's perfect in every way.

1603
01:10:38,928 --> 01:10:42,027
It is gross and terrible, and you can smoke inside,

1604
01:10:42,408 --> 01:10:44,908
and it is the fucking happiest place on earth.

1605
01:10:45,468 --> 01:10:47,148
Is that one of the ones you're scouting?

1606
01:10:47,947 --> 01:10:48,627
Mac Club Deuce?

1607
01:10:48,868 --> 01:10:52,527
God, we'll need a lot of Bitcoin to take that one over.

1608
01:10:52,727 --> 01:10:53,308
That's an icon.

1609
01:10:53,468 --> 01:10:54,428
Does that pub do well, though?

1610
01:10:54,487 --> 01:10:55,067
That bar do well?

1611
01:10:55,188 --> 01:10:55,947
Yeah, they crush.

1612
01:10:56,067 --> 01:10:56,388
Oh, okay.

1613
01:10:56,468 --> 01:10:56,947
They crush.

1614
01:10:57,067 --> 01:10:57,987
There must be a lot of theft.

1615
01:10:58,428 --> 01:10:59,587
It's all cash.

1616
01:10:59,627 --> 01:11:00,987
It's probably the most famous bar.

1617
01:11:01,607 --> 01:11:04,587
It probably ranks in America as one of the most famous dive bars.

1618
01:11:04,688 --> 01:11:05,067
Oh, really?

1619
01:11:05,908 --> 01:11:08,227
It was like, I think, Bourdain went there, didn't it?

1620
01:11:08,227 --> 01:11:08,667
Yeah, he did.

1621
01:11:08,667 --> 01:11:08,848
Yeah.

1622
01:11:09,368 --> 01:11:09,727
He did.

1623
01:11:09,848 --> 01:11:10,627
That would be a cool note.

1624
01:11:10,688 --> 01:11:11,567
That is a pub key bar.

1625
01:11:11,808 --> 01:11:14,167
I mean, I completely agree.

1626
01:11:14,268 --> 01:11:15,667
That land is very expensive.

1627
01:11:15,968 --> 01:11:16,188
Yeah.

1628
01:11:16,328 --> 01:11:16,547
Yeah.

1629
01:11:16,748 --> 01:11:17,107
One day.

1630
01:11:17,408 --> 01:11:19,808
A lot of the ideas downstairs are stolen from the Deuce.

1631
01:11:20,268 --> 01:11:20,527
Yeah.

1632
01:11:20,648 --> 01:11:20,788
A lot.

1633
01:11:20,788 --> 01:11:21,947
Not a lot, but the neons.

1634
01:11:21,947 --> 01:11:22,348
It's our sister bar.

1635
01:11:22,607 --> 01:11:22,888
Okay.

1636
01:11:23,067 --> 01:11:25,968
The neons are stolen from the, proudly stolen from the Deuce.

1637
01:11:26,087 --> 01:11:27,468
Yeah, but pub key is so much nicer.

1638
01:11:27,888 --> 01:11:28,587
It's so much nicer.

1639
01:11:28,688 --> 01:11:28,788
Yeah.

1640
01:11:28,788 --> 01:11:28,888
Yeah.

1641
01:11:28,888 --> 01:11:29,768
Just like little motifs.

1642
01:11:29,768 --> 01:11:31,027
That was a requirement of my wife.

1643
01:11:31,288 --> 01:11:34,288
We could have a dive bar, but the bathrooms have to be clean.

1644
01:11:34,408 --> 01:11:35,748
It's just like, but that's not a dive bar.

1645
01:11:36,527 --> 01:11:37,587
There's no smoking side.

1646
01:11:37,587 --> 01:11:40,868
I went to a good one in Chicago with Dylan and his girlfriend.

1647
01:11:42,167 --> 01:11:43,148
I am from Chicago.

1648
01:11:43,368 --> 01:11:44,808
What's the like really famous one?

1649
01:11:44,908 --> 01:11:45,788
It's a green door.

1650
01:11:47,308 --> 01:11:48,248
Don't think that was it.

1651
01:11:48,308 --> 01:11:49,408
You could smoke inside there.

1652
01:11:49,487 --> 01:11:50,328
The winner's circle.

1653
01:11:50,968 --> 01:11:51,227
Nope.

1654
01:11:51,768 --> 01:11:52,527
Is that the milkshake one?

1655
01:11:52,547 --> 01:11:53,008
Give me one more.

1656
01:11:53,047 --> 01:11:54,008
Is it called Richards?

1657
01:11:54,408 --> 01:11:54,627
Huh?

1658
01:11:54,768 --> 01:11:55,127
Richards?

1659
01:11:55,288 --> 01:11:55,447
Yeah.

1660
01:11:55,447 --> 01:11:55,748
I don't know.

1661
01:11:56,188 --> 01:11:56,547
I don't know.

1662
01:11:56,727 --> 01:11:59,908
I could be getting it wrong, but it was, that's, that's another one that should be on your list.

1663
01:11:59,928 --> 01:12:03,748
So Dylan, Dylan, Jack and Jerk are from the same like town.

1664
01:12:03,968 --> 01:12:05,008
Oh, so you know those guys.

1665
01:12:05,107 --> 01:12:05,868
You're like friends with those guys.

1666
01:12:05,868 --> 01:12:06,708
No, I don't.

1667
01:12:06,708 --> 01:12:07,808
We just figured it out.

1668
01:12:08,348 --> 01:12:09,107
Fair enough.

1669
01:12:09,288 --> 01:12:09,447
Yeah.

1670
01:12:10,167 --> 01:12:11,388
And I tried my best.

1671
01:12:11,468 --> 01:12:13,547
I was like, dudes, high school.

1672
01:12:13,727 --> 01:12:15,027
And they're, you know, they don't care.

1673
01:12:15,368 --> 01:12:16,607
Wait, did you go to the same high school?

1674
01:12:16,607 --> 01:12:17,667
We did go to the same high school, yeah.

1675
01:12:17,667 --> 01:12:18,648
I'm a bit older, but yeah.

1676
01:12:18,727 --> 01:12:19,428
Yeah, you look older.

1677
01:12:20,067 --> 01:12:20,328
Yeah.

1678
01:12:20,808 --> 01:12:21,487
More tired.

1679
01:12:21,828 --> 01:12:22,027
Yeah.

1680
01:12:22,748 --> 01:12:24,288
Well, this has been fun.

1681
01:12:24,587 --> 01:12:25,008
Thank you.

1682
01:12:25,067 --> 01:12:25,768
Thank you, guys.

1683
01:12:25,908 --> 01:12:27,888
Should we go and drink a beer and have a smash burger?

1684
01:12:27,987 --> 01:12:28,888
Yeah, whatever you like.

1685
01:12:28,987 --> 01:12:29,487
Let's do it.

1686
01:12:29,567 --> 01:12:29,808
Awesome.

1687
01:12:29,928 --> 01:12:30,027
Thanks.

1688
01:12:30,027 --> 01:12:30,167
All right.

1689
01:12:30,268 --> 01:12:30,708
Thanks, guys.

1690
01:12:36,708 --> 01:13:06,688
Thank you.