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If something happened to you this second, would your family be able to access your Bitcoin?

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It's important for you to start informing your next of kin, you know, roughly what happens when it's their time to claim that.

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You need to get your shit together now because you don't know if you're going to, you know, be listening to this podcast and get hit by a bus crossing the street.

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Bitcoin is just beginning.

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It's just scratching the surface of its full potential as freedom money.

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Create value for others, spend less than you earn,

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and save in a money that nobody else can print.

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You're going to be pretty well off.

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I've thought maybe the idea of retail wasn't going to happen this cycle.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, there's a weird phenomenon where it's almost like,

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for the first time,

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Bitcoin is not risky enough.

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Like everybody's so-

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A hundred percent.

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Downtrodden that, yeah.

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It's funny.

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I got a comment on one of the videos the other day

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because I had,

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I think it was when I had Samson Mao on.

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Yeah.

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And he'd been on the old show.

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Yeah.

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And I like started by going,

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welcome to the new show.

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You've not been on this one yet.

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Yeah.

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And one of the comments was like,

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there was an old show.

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And then someone replied underneath me

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and like Peter McCormack used to have it.

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He's like, who's Peter McCormack?

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I need to read.

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So there's clearly signs that new people are coming in.

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Yeah, this is crazy.

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Which is what I think we need, though.

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We need retail.

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Not necessarily, we don't need them to pump the price.

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I think the marginal difference they make

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probably isn't the same as it used to be,

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but I want more and more people to have Bitcoin.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's weird.

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Odell was on a week or two ago,

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and he's like, yeah,

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as soon as I deleted Twitter,

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and it didn't take long,

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it was like a year or two,

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and then I was on some shows

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and people would be like,

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who's this guy just like repeating

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like Bitcoin catchphrases.

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Stay humble, success.

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Yeah.

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He came up with it, dude.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I've seen them about Odell as well.

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It's like, who's the guy talking over everyone?

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But this is a side up.

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He never really left Twitter.

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He's just doing it all through the 1030.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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Sorry, Odell.

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But Sessions,

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this is your first time on the new show.

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It is.

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I'm excited.

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introduce yourself man yeah um yeah so my name's ben i run a youtube channel called btc sessions

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it's uh nine and a half years running holy shit 10 years 10 years coming up next june um

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and uh yeah so it's all it started from a place of uh bitcoin education so i spent two years prior

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trying to figure out how to use Bitcoin.

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And it was very difficult.

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There was no, I'm a visual learner

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and there was no video material on it.

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And so once I kind of got through the initial foray

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and figured a few things out,

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I thought it might be useful for a few people

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to be able to watch how I navigated using Bitcoin.

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And here we are.

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I knew you'd had the channel for a long time,

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but I didn't know it had been that long.

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Yeah.

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That must be one of the oldest Bitcoin,

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like educational channels that are still going.

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It could be, yeah, 2016.

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Holy shit, I can't believe that's nearly 10 years ago.

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Neither can I.

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I was thinking that's like 2011 or something.

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Yeah, no, no.

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It's, yeah, almost 10 years.

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I can't believe it.

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But hey, I didn't think it was going to be a job.

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I thought it would be a hobby, but.

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Here we are.

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Yeah.

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And now you're teaching human rights activists

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from all around the world how to use Bitcoin.

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Yeah.

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It's kind of cool.

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It's wild.

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Like the people that I get to interact with and educate is unbelievable.

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It's the Human Rights Foundation, all the HRF events, and everything that I get to do with them is some of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had in Bitcoin.

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Oh, 100%.

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Like even like I'm not working with them directly like you are, but I go to the events they put on.

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Like the stories you hear are crazy.

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And this idea that Bitcoin is no longer freedom money, I just don't think is true.

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And I think I fell for it a little bit.

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I was worried that we were all going to be rich and depressed

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because the project failed.

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And I don't actually think that's true.

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You see people using Bitcoin in ways that you can't even understand.

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And it's just incredible.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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There's a misconception that just because,

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what's the term?

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The loving term of suit coiners.

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Just because suit coiners exist

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doesn't preclude freedom fighters from using Bitcoin.

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Again, Bitcoin's for enemies and people are going to use it however they see fit.

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Some people will create treasury companies and put it into ETFs.

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Other people will literally fund revolutions.

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So, I mean-

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It's pretty fucking wild.

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It's crazy.

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Like some of the events that I've been to, everybody stands up 10 seconds on what you

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do and why you're here.

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you know, I could, oh, I create videos about Bitcoin on YouTube. And then like four or five

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people in the room will stand up and have literally toppled dictators. Yeah. I saw in the agenda,

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we're at the Global Bitcoin Summit. This isn't going out until afterwards, so I can say that.

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Yeah. And in the agenda, like the start of it is everyone introducing themselves very,

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very briefly. And I'm going to feel like such a larp. There's people that are like using Bitcoin

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to fight dictatorships, like Bitcoin saved my life. Like I make videos and people sometimes listen.

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Yeah. The quality of people that are here, again, to your point, some people thinking Bitcoin isn't freedom money because there's institutions that have hopped on board. It couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, Bitcoin is just beginning. It's just scratching the surface of its full potential as freedom money.

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going to the Oslo Freedom Forum since 2022, I think was my first year there.

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And seeing the progression of Bitcoiners being there and being the odd ones out.

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Why are these guys here? What's going on?

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Year to year, the next year, a few extra people in the room that are not Bitcoiners,

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but asking questions is almost like a gotcha.

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Like, oh, I'm going to prove them why this can't possibly work in my situation, to the next year filling in even more, people genuinely curious, to the following year, those very same people now being Bitcoin educators for all of their network.

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The amount of change that has taken place is staggering, but for us, it feels slow because we get to watch every step of the way. But when you look back, it's happening very quickly.

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It really is.

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And I think the other reason it can feel slow

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is because on Bitcoin, not a lot of changes.

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Occasionally, you get little improvements.

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You get things that everyone's going to fight about on Twitter.

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Yeah.

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But on the other layers with ARK, Spark, eCash,

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things are moving really rapidly.

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Yeah.

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There's so many...

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And just the usability of tools.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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I mean, when I started doing tutorials,

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the most frequent question I got asked is,

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aren't you going to run out of stuff to do?

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Nothing could be further from the truth. The list of things to make videos on is growing far faster than I could possibly cover them. And I remember even just a few years ago starting to do the first videos on multisig. And to your point on usability, multisig was a mess. Like I would make a wallet somewhere and I'd say, oh, can I use it with a different app? And it just nothing poured it over. And it was just, you know, it was horrifying.

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And now it's like, oh, I can use this or this or this and I can migrate and it all just kind of works.

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It's pretty incredible.

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I think maybe a good place to kind of start with this is I think there are retail people coming back.

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I think we're having new people come to Bitcoin.

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They're probably hearing us talk about things like self-custody and not keeping Bitcoin on exchange or with an ETF provider.

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Like, let's start with how people can go from sort of zero to 100.

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But even before that, like, why should people do it?

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, and you're right, retail is coming in, but I think, funny enough, they're coming in through treasury companies right now.

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I agree.

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Yeah.

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And they're probably seeing that maybe Bitcoin is the thing they should be holding.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So, first, the why, because people need the motivation.

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The whole premise of Bitcoin is to be self-sovereign, to be in control.

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It was built from a place of lack of trust in existing infrastructure and monetary systems.

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You can always be rug pulled in one way or the other, whether it's losing actual custody or whether it's the debasement of the currency itself. And really, you don't have control over those things in the traditional system. And so how best to do that? You need to take self custody of Bitcoin so that nobody can censor you, nobody can tell you no.

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So, I mean, the first thing you need to attack is where are you going to get your Bitcoin?

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And even this can be a nuanced answer.

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Like, how worried are you about privacy?

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All of that.

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Typically, I take people down the easiest route first.

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And then I say, okay, if you're comfortable with this, then we can level up from there.

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But, you know, depending on the jurisdiction, what's available to you, what companies can you get Bitcoin from?

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You're going to lose some privacy by using an online exchange, but at least it'll get your foot in the door.

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You'll learn how to obtain Bitcoin and transact.

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If you already self-custody of Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets.

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Complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten.

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Well, BitKey fixes that.

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It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an intuitive,

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easy-to-use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over. It's simple, secure self-custody without

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the stress. And Time named BitKey one of the best inventions of 2024. Get 20% off at bitkey.world

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But Ledin makes that possible.

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Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest. I recently took out a loan with Ledin. The whole

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00:11:56,580 --> 00:12:01,660
process was super easy. The application took me less than 15 minutes and in a few hours I had the

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dollars in my account. It was really smooth. So if you need cash but you don't want to sell Bitcoin,

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head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan. That's ledin.io

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forward slash WBD. So like trying to get people to go full privacy straight out the gate is going

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to be a lift. And if you're moving from an ETF or a treasury company, it's still a better option.

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Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because at the end of the day, if you hold Bitcoin, but in reality,

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somebody else is holding Bitcoin for you, at any point, that can be rug pulled, right? Any point,

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they can tell you, no, you don't have access to this. Or in a nightmare scenario, you're not allowed

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to hold Bitcoin anymore. We're going to exchange the dollar value of the Bitcoin now, and then

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take it for the state or whatever it may be.

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And all that might seem far-fetched, but it's really not.

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Like that could absolutely happen.

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And I think when it comes to sort of self-custody in Bitcoin,

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if someone's bought Bitcoin, they understand why they should.

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Like there's so many trade-offs.

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And I just did a show with the seed signer guy.

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I think he says some interesting things.

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What I was nervous about with that show is it did sound a little like

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he was kind of shitting on every hardware wallet,

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that there was an issue with them.

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And I just, I don't think that's true.

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I understand why you want to be cautious,

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why you want to be skeptical.

236
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You might need to upgrade over the years

237
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and all that stuff.

238
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But that is the place to start.

239
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And even there, it's not like you go directly

240
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to a very complex multi-sig setup.

241
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And like BitKey responds to the show.

242
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I think they fit a perfect part of the market

243
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where it's just easy.

244
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And there are trade-offs.

245
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There's always trade-offs.

246
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:41,760
Yeah, of course.

247
00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:43,020
But it's like a simple setup.

248
00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:45,260
So what would you say people should start with?

249
00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:58,420
So, yeah, I mean, I typically, three things that you want to tackle right out the gate as a brand new Bitcoin or experiencing self-custody, as I said, where are you going to get your Bitcoin? So figure that out jurisdictionally, what's available.

250
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,120
Two, I would say first practice with a hot wallet.

251
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,940
So again, there's going to be newbies that maybe watch this.

252
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:06,940
What the hell is a hot wallet?

253
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:17,180
A hot wallet just means that the ability to spend the credentials or the keys to your money reside on a device that is connected to the internet, your phone, your computer, whatever.

254
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,560
It's just an app basically.

255
00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:25,320
And that's fine for day-to-day spending, practicing, learning, but treat it like cash in your pocket.

256
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,460
You wouldn't walk around with your life savings as cash in your pocket, so you don't want to do that with a hot wallet either.

257
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,020
But they're fine for day-to-day.

258
00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:40,760
So I would say first order of business is get a decent app where you can use it on your phone.

259
00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:55,140
Lots of examples of that, something like Blue Wallet or Aqua Wallet or even Nunchuck, things like that, where you can just download an app, receive some Bitcoin, and just use it.

260
00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:14,240
Beyond that, then it's, okay, we're getting into savings territory. We've built up a little bit of a nest egg here. We want to keep it secure and offline. So the keys to your money now reside externally from your phone or your computer.

261
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:27,880
So they're either on a device as with SeedSigner, it's typically like either paper or a metal plate or something like that. But the idea is the keys themselves can't be remotely accessed by anybody.

262
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:41,400
What do I start people with? It depends on my understanding of where the person is at technologically, because some people are going to be super timid.

263
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,380
So you were talking about BitKey sponsoring the show.

264
00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:50,040
They are cornering a specific subset of the market.

265
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The people that probably wouldn't have self-custody in the first place,

266
00:15:54,780 --> 00:15:58,540
but they have this thing and they can put a thumb on it

267
00:15:58,540 --> 00:16:00,800
and they tap it to their phone.

268
00:16:00,820 --> 00:16:01,960
And the app's super easy to assess.

269
00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:06,120
I put my mom and dad on a BitKey because if it was that or an exchange,

270
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,100
it's clearly a better option.

271
00:16:07,340 --> 00:16:10,340
They're not prepared already to go to a cold card.

272
00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:10,600
Yeah.

273
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,220
And so maybe, should we just go through them?

274
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,500
Because I want this to almost be like a 101.

275
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:18,080
Should we go through the trade-offs of each?

276
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:18,700
Yeah, of course.

277
00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:20,060
Bitkey, very simple.

278
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:21,800
What are the trade-offs there?

279
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,580
So the trade-offs there would be that it's cold storage,

280
00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:30,360
but it's kind of like warm.

281
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,480
What I mean by that is there's multiple keys involved.

282
00:16:34,580 --> 00:16:36,920
There's the device itself that is cold.

283
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:39,720
The key is on a device that's not connected to the internet.

284
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,440
There's a key on your phone, and there's a key on the server of BitKey.

285
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,400
At any one time, you need two keys to access the money.

286
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,900
But two of the keys are technically accessible via internet-connected devices or servers or whatever.

287
00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:07,120
So while BitKey, you can set parameters where that key that they have won't approve a transaction, so you require your device in the phone.

288
00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:11,900
there are instances where you can spend with the two online keys.

289
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:19,080
And I imagine they have pretty good security practices there,

290
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:26,120
but there's that possibility that somebody could compromise your phone and be able to spend.

291
00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:31,620
But the tradeoff there is that instead of having to do seed phrase backups and things like that,

292
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,920
you can essentially lose advice and you can still access your money.

293
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:36,040
Yeah, exactly.

294
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,980
So there's mitigation techniques.

295
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,780
There's different, they've got lots of unique recovery ways.

296
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:56,520
The other trade-offs that I would say would be that right now, currently, you're more or less forced into their ecosystem.

297
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:09,315
So you must use their companion app with the device You can use it if you prefer another app or you want to migrate That going to be a barrier if you want to do that The other thing would be that the device

298
00:18:09,315 --> 00:18:19,515
doesn't have a screen on it. And so typically the main issue there would be if your phone

299
00:18:19,515 --> 00:18:25,735
is compromised, if there's some sort of malware or the app is not presenting the truth about what

300
00:18:25,735 --> 00:18:30,935
you're doing, your last line of defense is to look at the screen on the device, and that's kind of

301
00:18:30,935 --> 00:18:35,895
your beacon of truth. You don't have that necessarily. You don't really have that with

302
00:18:35,895 --> 00:18:41,915
the bit key because there's no screen on it. It's just verify with thumbprint and tap. So you don't

303
00:18:41,915 --> 00:18:48,715
have that check. That said, with things being open source, there can be eyeballs on the code,

304
00:18:48,855 --> 00:18:54,235
making sure that it's doing what it's supposed to, whether the app or whatever. But if something

305
00:18:54,235 --> 00:18:59,735
were introduced and it wasn't caught yet, there's that possibility. I think the important thing for

306
00:18:59,735 --> 00:19:04,915
people to consider when they're doing this as well is like, what is your risk? Like, is your risk,

307
00:19:05,155 --> 00:19:10,575
you know, being politically attacked or is it, you know, the $5 wrench attack? Or I think the

308
00:19:10,575 --> 00:19:15,175
biggest risk to everyone is that they're going to mess something up. Yes. Yeah. You need to have a

309
00:19:15,175 --> 00:19:20,795
hierarchy of what do you think is most likely to happen? And statistically, the most likely thing

310
00:19:20,795 --> 00:19:28,655
to happen is you're going to screw it up. And so depending on your level of tech savviness

311
00:19:28,655 --> 00:19:34,495
and what you're comfortable with, you may make different decisions. And that's fine. People are

312
00:19:34,495 --> 00:19:39,875
going to choose what they want to choose. The key thing is that if you can take control of your own

313
00:19:39,875 --> 00:19:46,715
money, then you've gotten rid of the risk of an exchange rug pulling you. And that's probably one

314
00:19:46,715 --> 00:19:50,775
of the greater risks out there that you can mitigate against. And if you have a system where

315
00:19:50,775 --> 00:19:58,715
there's backups and different recovery paths and things like that, as with something like BitKey or

316
00:19:58,715 --> 00:20:04,795
other examples that we're going to talk about, then you've already hedged against two of the

317
00:20:04,795 --> 00:20:10,955
most important things that you can hedge against. Yeah. And I think that's why I like sort of

318
00:20:10,955 --> 00:20:16,155
promoting BitKey because I do think that it gives people who aren't technically savvy a really good

319
00:20:16,155 --> 00:20:19,795
option that's much, it's far better than having money on an exchange. And like I say, there's

320
00:20:19,795 --> 00:20:24,215
always trade-offs. People should be aware of the trade-offs, but like if you deem yourself very

321
00:20:24,215 --> 00:20:29,235
technical incompetent and you think the biggest chance of losing any Bitcoin is by you messing

322
00:20:29,235 --> 00:20:32,675
it up, it's a pretty good option. So should we move up the stack? So I don't know what you want

323
00:20:32,675 --> 00:20:41,175
to go to next. Maybe like Ledger? Yeah. So with Ledger, again, like I'm not a huge Ledger fan.

324
00:20:41,575 --> 00:20:43,275
I've used Ledger's in the past.

325
00:20:43,355 --> 00:20:46,495
I've done videos on Ledger and taught people how to use them,

326
00:20:46,795 --> 00:20:49,775
but it wouldn't be one that I would lean into initially

327
00:20:49,775 --> 00:20:51,155
for a variety of reasons.

328
00:20:51,795 --> 00:20:55,435
One being that it's not open source,

329
00:20:55,515 --> 00:20:57,875
so there's parts of the infrastructure there

330
00:20:57,875 --> 00:20:59,655
where you can't really tell.

331
00:21:00,275 --> 00:21:02,655
You can't go through the code and know what it's doing.

332
00:21:02,715 --> 00:21:04,755
Not that the average person is going to do that,

333
00:21:04,815 --> 00:21:06,995
but you want to know that some eyeballs have been on it.

334
00:21:07,715 --> 00:21:09,055
So it's a bit of a black box.

335
00:21:09,095 --> 00:21:10,115
You don't really know what's happening.

336
00:21:10,795 --> 00:21:17,455
The other thing is that they more or less support just like every coin under the sun.

337
00:21:17,455 --> 00:21:19,115
And why is that an issue?

338
00:21:19,555 --> 00:21:24,055
So with greater complexity comes greater potential attack vectors.

339
00:21:24,695 --> 00:21:27,955
And there's also just a man hour cost to that.

340
00:21:27,955 --> 00:21:40,115
Like, do you, are you sacrificing, you know, R&D on better user experience for Bitcoin by supporting every new chain that comes out?

341
00:21:40,115 --> 00:21:48,655
And with Ledger, you know, they they'll say, OK, well, you don't have to download anything other than the Bitcoin app because all the apps are segregated.

342
00:21:48,655 --> 00:21:58,015
But like the fact that they support the other apps for the again, the complexity part, it means that it can support that.

343
00:21:58,115 --> 00:22:01,435
So it's open to to those potential threats.

344
00:22:01,435 --> 00:22:07,535
So overall, I'm not a big Ledger fan.

345
00:22:07,535 --> 00:22:09,975
However, again, it does have a screen.

346
00:22:10,295 --> 00:22:12,355
So again, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

347
00:22:12,535 --> 00:22:18,695
It does have a screen so you can look on the device and kind of verify what's on your computer is also on the device.

348
00:22:19,195 --> 00:22:21,995
They have a variety of ways to connect.

349
00:22:22,135 --> 00:22:22,955
They're mobile friendly.

350
00:22:26,095 --> 00:22:29,975
They've got a lot of experience in kind of building it out.

351
00:22:29,975 --> 00:22:35,335
I'm not a big fan of the UX, but the app on the phone and on the computer is very clean.

352
00:22:35,335 --> 00:22:38,915
but just not my cup of tea

353
00:22:38,915 --> 00:22:41,595
especially the close source nature of it.

354
00:22:41,855 --> 00:22:43,695
The one thing I would give Ledger a lot of credit for

355
00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:45,015
is their dungeon.

356
00:22:45,935 --> 00:22:48,215
I think that's probably, I don't actually know this

357
00:22:48,215 --> 00:22:51,095
but I think that's probably the most resource intensive

358
00:22:51,095 --> 00:22:53,715
project out there that's looking at attacking

359
00:22:53,715 --> 00:22:54,955
all of these different hardware wallets

360
00:22:54,955 --> 00:22:56,155
to then disclose the vulnerabilities

361
00:22:56,155 --> 00:22:57,275
to allow people to fix them.

362
00:22:57,495 --> 00:22:58,475
Yeah, absolutely.

363
00:22:58,815 --> 00:23:02,415
And they are really good with releasing reports

364
00:23:02,415 --> 00:23:07,695
on any major vulnerabilities hacks.

365
00:23:07,835 --> 00:23:09,795
There was one recently on-

366
00:23:09,795 --> 00:23:10,855
It was something like Cod, right?

367
00:23:10,875 --> 00:23:11,175
Yeah.

368
00:23:11,595 --> 00:23:14,735
No, it was like the NPM attack,

369
00:23:14,895 --> 00:23:18,295
something like if certain wallets were using JavaScript,

370
00:23:18,635 --> 00:23:21,135
then there was a bit of an attack vector there.

371
00:23:21,615 --> 00:23:24,415
That was a few weeks back, I think.

372
00:23:24,555 --> 00:23:27,235
But there's definitely informative things

373
00:23:27,235 --> 00:23:28,395
coming out of Ledger.

374
00:23:28,395 --> 00:23:31,795
But again, as a Bitcoiner first,

375
00:23:32,415 --> 00:23:35,375
I migrate to something that's Bitcoin only,

376
00:23:35,595 --> 00:23:37,855
because Bitcoin only, open source,

377
00:23:38,115 --> 00:23:39,155
all that kind of stuff.

378
00:23:39,335 --> 00:23:40,915
Like, can you actually audit

379
00:23:40,915 --> 00:23:43,235
it's doing what it says it's doing?

380
00:23:43,635 --> 00:23:46,695
And is it focused solely on Bitcoin

381
00:23:46,695 --> 00:23:48,995
so that I know it's as secure as it can be?

382
00:23:49,355 --> 00:23:49,595
All right.

383
00:23:49,635 --> 00:23:50,595
So next up the stack,

384
00:23:50,675 --> 00:23:51,135
what would that be?

385
00:23:51,235 --> 00:23:51,655
Trezor maybe?

386
00:23:52,275 --> 00:23:53,455
Yeah, Trezor, Trezor.

387
00:23:54,075 --> 00:23:56,775
You know, I do like Trezor.

388
00:23:57,255 --> 00:23:58,715
I think that they do a good job.

389
00:23:59,795 --> 00:24:00,815
Do you know I've never used a Trezor?

390
00:24:00,975 --> 00:24:01,195
Really?

391
00:24:01,195 --> 00:24:02,275
I've used pretty much every hardware.

392
00:24:02,415 --> 00:24:03,435
I've never used Trezor.

393
00:24:03,695 --> 00:24:03,915
Yeah.

394
00:24:05,195 --> 00:24:08,175
Especially now, the newer ones.

395
00:24:08,775 --> 00:24:13,815
So one of the issues before is they didn't have what's known as a secure element.

396
00:24:13,815 --> 00:24:21,715
So this is the key material for your wallet is in a segregated chip that's separate from the rest of the circuitry.

397
00:24:22,255 --> 00:24:23,675
Ledger does have that.

398
00:24:24,395 --> 00:24:28,735
Trezor for the longest time didn't, and they incorporated them into their latest devices.

399
00:24:28,735 --> 00:24:35,935
So that's a step to, I think, being one of the more secure options out there.

400
00:24:36,355 --> 00:24:48,555
And on top of that, they do support other coins, but they have a Bitcoin-only firmware that you can go one way and load that firmware, and then the device is now Bitcoin-only, which I think is a positive.

401
00:24:48,835 --> 00:24:51,215
So I think they do great.

402
00:24:51,795 --> 00:24:55,695
The tradeoff there is it has to be wired, has to be plugged in.

403
00:24:55,735 --> 00:24:57,235
You don't really have a mobile option.

404
00:24:57,235 --> 00:25:02,915
There are, with Android, you can plug it in, but like, who's going to bring a cord with your phone and like, yeah.

405
00:25:03,195 --> 00:25:07,495
So probably, again, thinking of this as like a almost 101 type show, like why is that an issue?

406
00:25:09,855 --> 00:25:18,695
There is a concept referred to as air gapping, meaning that you don't even plug your device into a phone or a computer.

407
00:25:19,695 --> 00:25:24,675
I'll say it gives marginal additional security.

408
00:25:24,675 --> 00:25:36,095
I mean, the main reason that I was addressing there was just preference of, hey, if you're mobile, then you might want something that you can just pair without having to plug in.

409
00:25:36,095 --> 00:25:46,015
But the air gapping thing, there's a tradeoff in that when you are air gapping, it's very intentional.

410
00:25:46,575 --> 00:25:53,055
So you are saying on a phone or a computer, I want to send this much Bitcoin to this address.

411
00:25:53,055 --> 00:25:59,475
and then you take that information and you get it over to the device, usually with a QR code or

412
00:25:59,475 --> 00:26:04,635
tapping the device or whatever. And then on the device, you look and you say,

413
00:26:04,995 --> 00:26:10,375
okay, is this the same? I'm sending this much Bitcoin to that address. Is that good?

414
00:26:10,595 --> 00:26:18,755
And then you approve it. You do the equivalent of signing a check type thing. And then you get that

415
00:26:18,755 --> 00:26:27,115
signature back to your phone or your computer so that you can send it. And so it makes you eyeball

416
00:26:27,115 --> 00:26:34,555
the transaction more carefully. And on the device itself, you must prompt it to say,

417
00:26:34,555 --> 00:26:40,515
I'm doing a transaction now and I need to approve it. And you're looking at it and saying,

418
00:26:40,655 --> 00:26:46,455
yes, I want to do that and then sending it over. Whereas if you plug something into a computer or a

419
00:26:46,455 --> 00:26:54,615
phone, the phone or the computer for a short period of time takes a degree of control over

420
00:26:54,615 --> 00:27:00,575
the device. It prompts the device to do things. And so it'll prompt the device. It'll wake it up

421
00:27:00,575 --> 00:27:04,315
and say, there's a transaction happening. Just bring it up on the screen and bring the approves.

422
00:27:04,495 --> 00:27:09,555
And so you're more likely to kind of gloss over what you're doing. And there's a degree of,

423
00:27:09,555 --> 00:27:13,515
oh, the phone is controlling the device with my keys on it.

424
00:27:13,915 --> 00:27:18,055
So it's a limited risk, I would say, realistically,

425
00:27:18,395 --> 00:27:21,395
but it's one that, you know, keeps you on your toes.

426
00:27:21,755 --> 00:27:21,875
Okay.

427
00:27:22,015 --> 00:27:24,035
And then finally, in terms of hardware,

428
00:27:24,135 --> 00:27:25,295
unless you want to talk about anything else,

429
00:27:25,415 --> 00:27:26,735
I want to talk about Coldcard.

430
00:27:27,035 --> 00:27:27,395
Yes.

431
00:27:27,735 --> 00:27:30,815
So Coldcard, this is kind of my go-to.

432
00:27:31,055 --> 00:27:33,235
And actually, I'll split this between,

433
00:27:34,035 --> 00:27:37,395
because, you know, I like what CoinKite as a company does

434
00:27:37,395 --> 00:27:43,115
So they create the cold card, but then they also create the tap signer, which is like a little tap card.

435
00:27:43,215 --> 00:27:45,195
So similar to the bit key where you can tap.

436
00:27:45,255 --> 00:27:45,835
This thing here.

437
00:27:46,015 --> 00:27:46,895
Yes, exactly.

438
00:27:47,075 --> 00:27:47,315
Yes.

439
00:27:47,335 --> 00:27:48,335
I probably got one in my bag.

440
00:27:48,555 --> 00:27:48,755
Yeah.

441
00:27:49,295 --> 00:27:53,655
So tap signer is more convenience-based.

442
00:27:53,995 --> 00:27:55,295
And again, it doesn't have a screen.

443
00:27:55,455 --> 00:27:57,255
So there's that trade-off there that we discussed.

444
00:27:57,875 --> 00:28:00,995
But like travel-wise, I think it's super convenient.

445
00:28:01,795 --> 00:28:04,275
And again, you just pair it to an app on your phone.

446
00:28:04,275 --> 00:28:08,395
And to approve, you put in the pin for the card and then tap the card to your phone.

447
00:28:09,415 --> 00:28:12,715
So that's low cost.

448
00:28:13,315 --> 00:28:19,715
I'd say low barrier to entry and pretty simplistic interacting with it.

449
00:28:20,515 --> 00:28:25,895
The cold card, and I'm going to specifically refer to the Q, which it looks like a BlackBerry.

450
00:28:26,155 --> 00:28:29,415
It's got a full keyboard on it and all of the things.

451
00:28:29,415 --> 00:28:31,935
this thing is like

452
00:28:31,935 --> 00:28:34,415
it's a beast.

453
00:28:34,615 --> 00:28:36,335
It's substantial

454
00:28:36,335 --> 00:28:38,655
and it does every

455
00:28:38,655 --> 00:28:40,755
possible thing that you could want to do.

456
00:28:40,855 --> 00:28:42,355
So for me, I'm like

457
00:28:42,355 --> 00:28:44,395
I want to try everything.

458
00:28:44,775 --> 00:28:45,775
And the

459
00:28:45,775 --> 00:28:48,595
advanced menu and all of the features that you

460
00:28:48,595 --> 00:28:50,635
can do, pretty wild. But the

461
00:28:50,635 --> 00:28:52,555
long and the short of it is you have a device

462
00:28:52,555 --> 00:28:54,575
that has a screen and

463
00:28:54,575 --> 00:28:56,575
a keyboard and it has a

464
00:28:56,575 --> 00:28:58,275
camera on the top of it.

465
00:28:58,275 --> 00:29:01,495
It also does NFC, so you can tap with it as well.

466
00:29:02,495 --> 00:29:06,215
You can interact with your phone or your computer.

467
00:29:08,115 --> 00:29:15,455
And the draw for this one is you can audit the code so you can tell that it's doing what it's supposed to be doing.

468
00:29:15,535 --> 00:29:16,915
So that checks one off the list.

469
00:29:17,475 --> 00:29:23,595
It's Bitcoin only, so I'm not worried about additional software on there that could be finicky.

470
00:29:24,875 --> 00:29:27,995
It's air-gapped, so you can plug it in if you want to.

471
00:29:28,275 --> 00:29:33,335
But, you know, if you want to up your game, you can migrate to air gapping eventually.

472
00:29:34,795 --> 00:29:39,235
Big screen, so you can like add passcodes and all these different things.

473
00:29:40,395 --> 00:29:41,415
Secure element.

474
00:29:41,935 --> 00:29:43,995
So it ticks a lot of boxes.

475
00:29:44,435 --> 00:29:50,315
And the other thing that I really actually kind of like about Cold Card is it doesn't have an app.

476
00:29:50,315 --> 00:30:00,475
so with say trezor ledger bitkey and a lot of other devices i'll throw in blocks from jade

477
00:30:00,475 --> 00:30:07,555
kind of there's there's nuance there but anyways when you get roped into using an app then you're

478
00:30:07,555 --> 00:30:13,755
kind of both the hardware and the software side of things are are it's a single point of failure

479
00:30:13,755 --> 00:30:20,275
and so you must use that app at least you know with the trezor and the ledger to set up the device

480
00:30:20,275 --> 00:30:23,335
and update it, but then you can migrate later.

481
00:30:23,515 --> 00:30:25,855
With the cold card, you can set up the device,

482
00:30:26,415 --> 00:30:29,375
have it ready to go without ever touching any app,

483
00:30:29,515 --> 00:30:32,535
and then you decide what app you want to use with it.

484
00:30:32,535 --> 00:30:35,075
And all of the apps are not created by CoinKite.

485
00:30:35,455 --> 00:30:39,555
So you kind of have this default diversification

486
00:30:39,555 --> 00:30:41,035
of software and hardware

487
00:30:41,035 --> 00:30:46,595
so that if cold card wanted to screw you in their app,

488
00:30:46,735 --> 00:30:48,195
they can't because there is no app.

489
00:30:48,195 --> 00:30:50,935
So you have to have another software developer

490
00:30:50,935 --> 00:30:54,555
in cahoots with CoinKite to screw you out of money,

491
00:30:55,195 --> 00:30:56,855
you know, to pull the wool over your eyes.

492
00:30:57,235 --> 00:31:00,815
So I think, so I love that ColdCard has a ton of features.

493
00:31:01,015 --> 00:31:03,075
I think they, basically everything you can do,

494
00:31:03,415 --> 00:31:04,815
they have often to do it.

495
00:31:05,175 --> 00:31:06,115
But there is risk with that.

496
00:31:06,215 --> 00:31:09,915
Because again, like if you have to assume for most people,

497
00:31:10,195 --> 00:31:12,215
your biggest likelihood of losing your Bitcoin

498
00:31:12,215 --> 00:31:14,935
is by you losing it rather than being attacked.

499
00:31:15,535 --> 00:31:16,875
And they do add like complexity.

500
00:31:16,875 --> 00:31:20,155
So do you think most people should stay away from that advanced settings menu?

501
00:31:20,835 --> 00:31:24,035
Most people won't ever really use it.

502
00:31:24,735 --> 00:31:38,955
The average person, if they're using a cold card, their interaction will be set up the device, which entails like setting up a pin and creating a new wallet and writing down your words, your backup words.

503
00:31:40,775 --> 00:31:46,395
And then other than that, it'll be picking an app and pairing the device to the app.

504
00:31:46,875 --> 00:31:56,695
When you're doing transactions, it'll be, I want to send this here, and then just interact with a cold card.

505
00:31:56,835 --> 00:31:58,735
Yes, I approve, back and forth.

506
00:31:59,455 --> 00:32:03,135
You're likely not going to be diving into the advanced stuff.

507
00:32:03,955 --> 00:32:10,275
And usually if I'm teaching somebody how to use a cold card, I'm saying, we're only focusing on what you need to know.

508
00:32:10,415 --> 00:32:15,915
The rest of this is at your disposal as you begin to learn more and you get curious.

509
00:32:16,255 --> 00:32:17,255
It's just kind of there.

510
00:32:17,855 --> 00:32:23,115
And there'll be features down the line that oftentimes people will go, oh, I didn't even know this was a thing.

511
00:32:23,175 --> 00:32:23,935
This is super useful.

512
00:32:25,215 --> 00:32:37,975
So I do think that the average person can get it as long as they focus on just what they need to do, especially like for a very beginner, just plug the damn thing into your computer.

513
00:32:38,175 --> 00:32:38,575
100%.

514
00:32:38,575 --> 00:32:42,675
You don't want to be creating your own entropy with like three dice rolls and then be like, why is my Bitcoin not here?

515
00:32:42,675 --> 00:32:43,935
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

516
00:32:43,935 --> 00:32:48,255
So like you got to meet the person where they are.

517
00:32:48,415 --> 00:32:53,175
And if somebody is in a place where they're like, this is really cool.

518
00:32:53,375 --> 00:32:58,595
I want to, you know, maybe they're migrating from another device and they're saying like, I'm going to up my game now.

519
00:32:59,555 --> 00:33:06,175
Then you start them off simple and then you say, OK, here's the breadcrumbs of where maybe we'll go after this.

520
00:33:07,075 --> 00:33:13,175
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568
00:35:59,695 --> 00:36:14,030
wallet software what like i like i think wasabi is great i think i think sparrow is great what else do you recommend people use So I really my default on desktop is Sparrow And to be honest even when I teaching somebody relatively new

569
00:36:14,110 --> 00:36:15,210
I will show them Sparrow.

570
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:17,050
And I know that looks scary,

571
00:36:17,210 --> 00:36:21,230
but I explain it in a way where, again,

572
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:23,050
I just try to pull people's focus.

573
00:36:23,050 --> 00:36:24,610
Like you don't need to know,

574
00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:26,170
yes, there's other buttons there.

575
00:36:26,490 --> 00:36:27,270
Don't touch the buttons.

576
00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:29,750
Just touch the blue button.

577
00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:30,810
That's telling you where to go.

578
00:36:30,810 --> 00:36:33,870
So I'll start really basic with that.

579
00:36:34,770 --> 00:36:36,610
But then on mobile,

580
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:40,690
I think probably one of the most versatile mobile wallets

581
00:36:40,690 --> 00:36:44,370
for hardcore security is probably Nunchuck.

582
00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:48,330
I use that all the time for travel,

583
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:50,690
for inheritance, for a whole bunch of stuff.

584
00:36:50,830 --> 00:36:54,330
I quite like them as it pertains to with hardware.

585
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:56,850
Yeah, I've not used Nunchuck in a long time,

586
00:36:56,910 --> 00:36:58,170
but I think Sparrow is great.

587
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:59,170
I use Sparrow all the time.

588
00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:59,990
I do like Wasabi.

589
00:36:59,990 --> 00:37:01,670
I think their UX is really nice.

590
00:37:01,890 --> 00:37:02,210
It is.

591
00:37:02,350 --> 00:37:04,830
And again, like it can be an advanced wallet,

592
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:06,410
but you can like hide a lot of features

593
00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:07,790
and just do things relatively simply.

594
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:08,970
Yeah, you absolutely can.

595
00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:09,970
And actually it's, you know,

596
00:37:10,030 --> 00:37:11,570
it's definitely a good option.

597
00:37:11,650 --> 00:37:15,170
I've got a setup where I'm utilizing Wasabi,

598
00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:18,150
but then I'm also utilizing Sprite.

599
00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:19,970
I have this whole thing that I do.

600
00:37:20,210 --> 00:37:20,790
You're a nerd, we get it.

601
00:37:20,890 --> 00:37:22,130
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

602
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:22,570
So.

603
00:37:23,170 --> 00:37:25,090
And then when it comes to things like multi-sig,

604
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:27,570
I, so I hear Odell talk about this a lot

605
00:37:27,570 --> 00:37:35,550
And I strongly agree with him in the sense that I think for a lot of people, it's just added complexity that you don't necessarily need.

606
00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:37,970
Like for you and I, people know we're Bitcoiners.

607
00:37:38,110 --> 00:37:39,910
Like there's some risk with that.

608
00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:43,670
And like having geographically dispersed keys, like that makes total sense.

609
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:53,970
But if you're just like a Bitcoiner, like people don't necessarily know you have a lot of Bitcoin or maybe like I think single sig is totally fine and maybe the best option for a lot of people.

610
00:37:53,970 --> 00:38:11,590
Yeah, if you're just somebody, you know, you haven't really advertised the fact that you own Bitcoin, I'd say if you haven't been in a major data leak of who owns Bitcoin, then single SIG is also probably okay.

611
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:12,870
I can't say that applies to me.

612
00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:14,970
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

613
00:38:15,250 --> 00:38:15,710
I mean.

614
00:38:16,110 --> 00:38:19,070
Before the scammers come after me, I've moved address and changed my phone number.

615
00:38:19,070 --> 00:38:20,730
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

616
00:38:20,730 --> 00:38:22,870
So you're right.

617
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:29,010
Like if you're public about Bitcoin, I'd say multi-sig is damn near a necessity, right?

618
00:38:29,110 --> 00:38:32,610
Like just full disclosure, I'm using multi-sig.

619
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:37,030
You're not going to be able to kick in my door and just get like all the keys.

620
00:38:37,390 --> 00:38:39,190
Me too, unless you want to take a 24-hour flight with me.

621
00:38:39,390 --> 00:38:40,630
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

622
00:38:40,850 --> 00:38:46,670
Like it's a lot of these things are smash and grab jobs and they just want to be in and out.

623
00:38:46,670 --> 00:39:07,450
But yeah, for your average person, the most important thing is just a little bit of redundancy. So there's no like single point of failure. So like you don't want to have your hardware wallet and the backup seed phrase on paper stored in the same place because then one fire or flood and everything's gone.

624
00:39:07,830 --> 00:39:12,710
So if you can have your device and then maybe have your seed words,

625
00:39:12,930 --> 00:39:15,730
ideally like stamped in a steel plate or something.

626
00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:17,530
And then fire and flood matters far less.

627
00:39:17,650 --> 00:39:18,270
Yeah, exactly.

628
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:22,670
So even then, if fire and flood, those two things in the same place,

629
00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:25,090
if it's steel, then at least you've got that.

630
00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:28,030
If you separate them even better,

631
00:39:28,910 --> 00:39:36,910
the only additional thing to consider would be with the 12 or 24 words,

632
00:39:36,910 --> 00:39:39,770
with your backup to the naked eye.

633
00:39:39,870 --> 00:39:41,770
If somebody comes across those

634
00:39:41,770 --> 00:39:42,690
and they know what they are,

635
00:39:42,970 --> 00:39:44,070
they have access to your money.

636
00:39:44,210 --> 00:39:46,750
So the one other thing you may want to consider

637
00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:49,390
would be a passphrase.

638
00:39:49,610 --> 00:39:50,650
I just wrote down BIP39.

639
00:39:51,050 --> 00:39:52,130
Yeah, exactly.

640
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:52,450
Yeah.

641
00:39:52,750 --> 00:39:54,430
So basically this is,

642
00:39:54,850 --> 00:39:56,150
you have your 12 word backup

643
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:58,890
and you add the equivalent

644
00:39:58,890 --> 00:40:00,350
of what's like a 13th word,

645
00:40:00,350 --> 00:40:01,710
but it can be anything,

646
00:40:01,890 --> 00:40:02,930
letters, numbers, symbols.

647
00:40:03,230 --> 00:40:04,090
That's where it gets tricky.

648
00:40:04,090 --> 00:40:12,310
is whatever you type in, in combination with your backup, is a new wallet.

649
00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:16,690
There is no wrong answer because all of them create wallets.

650
00:40:16,830 --> 00:40:24,650
So if I type apples as my passphrase, and it's all lowercase,

651
00:40:25,150 --> 00:40:30,210
and then I go back and I go to log into the wallet and I type apples with an uppercase A,

652
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:32,050
that is a new wallet.

653
00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:33,490
That is a separate wallet.

654
00:40:33,490 --> 00:40:40,490
and if I've never used it before, it will show a zero balance, even if I had Bitcoin sitting on the lowercase apples one.

655
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:47,470
So you need to be very, very clear in writing out that passphrase as is,

656
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:53,170
so that if anything happens to you or if you just forget, you can see what it is very clearly.

657
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:56,690
And that might sound scary to people who are new, but that is the power of Bitcoin.

658
00:40:56,810 --> 00:41:00,270
And that's why before anyone brute forces your wallet, it will be the end of the universe.

659
00:41:00,770 --> 00:41:01,930
Yes. Yeah, exactly.

660
00:41:01,930 --> 00:41:05,390
Like it's the main goal with adding a passphrase

661
00:41:05,390 --> 00:41:07,310
is just to put a wall between somebody

662
00:41:07,310 --> 00:41:09,570
finding your seed phrase

663
00:41:09,570 --> 00:41:12,310
and being able to actually access your money.

664
00:41:12,670 --> 00:41:14,790
And so you would store those separately.

665
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:16,730
You wouldn't have your seed phrase here.

666
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:19,730
Here's the passphrase to my wallet sitting beside it.

667
00:41:19,810 --> 00:41:21,370
You would have seed phrase here,

668
00:41:21,830 --> 00:41:24,830
passphrase at your mom's house or wherever.

669
00:41:25,370 --> 00:41:28,170
And it's also important that I think people

670
00:41:28,170 --> 00:41:30,250
don't just try and remember the passphrase.

671
00:41:30,250 --> 00:41:30,530
No.

672
00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:32,710
Because you think you can remember stuff,

673
00:41:32,850 --> 00:41:35,130
but give it five, 10 years, good luck.

674
00:41:35,550 --> 00:41:36,570
Yeah, not only that,

675
00:41:36,670 --> 00:41:39,190
but you think you can remember stuff.

676
00:41:39,230 --> 00:41:41,290
And even if you do, if something happens to you,

677
00:41:41,650 --> 00:41:43,230
is your family member going to remember

678
00:41:43,230 --> 00:41:44,990
the time you told them your passphrase?

679
00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:45,810
I don't think so.

680
00:41:45,970 --> 00:41:46,310
Exactly.

681
00:41:46,650 --> 00:41:50,470
And so if I was new to Bitcoin,

682
00:41:50,610 --> 00:41:51,250
coming to you and being like,

683
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:52,990
I want to take this seriously, do things properly,

684
00:41:53,250 --> 00:41:54,710
what else do you think I need to know?

685
00:41:55,630 --> 00:41:57,810
So, I mean, those are the core three.

686
00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:59,150
Where are you going to get Bitcoin?

687
00:41:59,150 --> 00:42:01,150
learn a little bit with a hot wallet

688
00:42:01,150 --> 00:42:03,010
figure out what hardware

689
00:42:03,010 --> 00:42:05,230
works best for you and hone

690
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:06,010
in on those three

691
00:42:06,010 --> 00:42:09,190
the most

692
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:11,230
important thing I'd say

693
00:42:11,230 --> 00:42:13,130
beyond your own personal security

694
00:42:13,130 --> 00:42:15,310
is kind of what we just alluded to

695
00:42:15,310 --> 00:42:17,310
which is if something

696
00:42:17,310 --> 00:42:19,070
happened to you this

697
00:42:19,070 --> 00:42:21,190
second would your family

698
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:22,470
be able to access your Bitcoin

699
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:24,950
and for a lot of Bitcoiners

700
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:26,310
they start going

701
00:42:26,310 --> 00:42:28,150
that's an awful question

702
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:44,150
Yeah. And so if you're watching this going, then you need to get your shit together now because you don't know if you're going to be listening to this podcast and get hit by a bus crossing the street. Look both ways.

703
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:57,030
But at the very least, you need to write out some clear instructions to your family members saying, I have this device.

704
00:42:57,290 --> 00:42:58,470
It has a pin.

705
00:42:59,070 --> 00:43:03,150
The pin is the device is stored wherever.

706
00:43:04,110 --> 00:43:09,750
If it's more complex than that, it has a passphrase, which is da-da-da.

707
00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:23,990
And then the other thing I would recommend is if you have a Bitcoin or friend that you deeply trust or family member that you deeply trust, put their contact info on that same sheet.

708
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:45,250
You know, if you have Bitcoin or circle of friends, which we're very lucky to have, just having that and somebody that you deeply trust be able to be like, okay, we know you guys are panicked. Let's look at the sheet. We can at least walk you through what to do so you have access.

709
00:43:45,250 --> 00:43:48,290
I think that's super important

710
00:43:48,290 --> 00:43:50,590
because your family in that moment

711
00:43:50,590 --> 00:43:52,510
like yeah they may be able to get through

712
00:43:52,510 --> 00:43:53,590
your instructions but

713
00:43:53,590 --> 00:43:56,450
it's a lot nicer if you have

714
00:43:56,450 --> 00:43:58,470
somebody that can be there

715
00:43:58,470 --> 00:44:00,450
totally and then like for full

716
00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:02,190
transparency on some of this like

717
00:44:02,190 --> 00:44:04,450
I had a really poor inheritance setup

718
00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:06,590
it was basically like a treasure

719
00:44:06,590 --> 00:44:08,530
hunt of different bits of information all over

720
00:44:08,530 --> 00:44:10,130
the place and never tested

721
00:44:10,130 --> 00:44:12,230
like I never was like to my wife or whoever

722
00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:13,650
like can you actually do this

723
00:44:13,650 --> 00:44:21,450
And so one of the things I did was move some Bitcoin to Casa and use their inheritance.

724
00:44:21,590 --> 00:44:25,310
Are there any inheritance products that you think are really worthwhile looking into?

725
00:44:25,730 --> 00:44:25,950
Yeah.

726
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:26,290
Yeah.

727
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:30,650
So there's a variety of options out there.

728
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:41,710
So obviously you have things like Casa, you have Unchained, you have these options that, again, it's a multi-sig setup.

729
00:44:41,890 --> 00:44:42,830
So you've got multiple devices.

730
00:44:42,830 --> 00:44:43,910
Yeah, Anchor Watch.

731
00:44:44,030 --> 00:44:44,530
Shout out to sponsors.

732
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:48,770
I'm actually really stoked on what Anchor Watch is working on.

733
00:44:49,150 --> 00:44:51,210
They have some incredible solutions,

734
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:54,090
and the insurance part of it is really nice.

735
00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:58,070
It's like the product that I think Bitcoin has been dying for

736
00:44:58,070 --> 00:44:58,910
for a number of years.

737
00:44:59,010 --> 00:44:59,270
Yes.

738
00:44:59,810 --> 00:45:01,870
There's obviously some limitations in it

739
00:45:01,870 --> 00:45:04,050
in terms of how much Bitcoin you have to have to be able to use it.

740
00:45:04,110 --> 00:45:06,510
But if you have a decent amount of money

741
00:45:06,510 --> 00:45:08,630
and you want to store Bitcoin in a way

742
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:10,230
that you can kind of just set it and forget it,

743
00:45:10,270 --> 00:45:11,810
it is probably the best option out there.

744
00:45:11,810 --> 00:45:27,130
Yeah, exactly. So I mean, yeah, what they've done and what they've put together is, I mean, all Bitcoiners owe them a debt of gratitude for the hard work that they've done to accomplish that. So hats off to Anchor Watch.

745
00:45:27,130 --> 00:45:41,470
Uh, the other, and then I, again, on the, on the subject of nunchuck, um, you know, they, they also for the, the cypher punks out there that are like, I don't want to give up any personal information.

746
00:45:41,650 --> 00:45:42,490
Nobody needs it.

747
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:45,210
Nunchuck has a wicked setup too.

748
00:45:45,370 --> 00:45:46,490
That is pretty automated.

749
00:45:46,490 --> 00:45:56,770
The, the long and the short of it is you give a family member three English words and a password, like a bit of a long passphrase.

750
00:45:57,130 --> 00:46:19,510
Uh, and you just say, this is for you. Keep this safe. Multiple copies. If you want, nobody can do anything with those copies. Um, just keep them, keep a few of these, uh, at, you know, whatever threshold you set, like a rolling threshold every year, every, you know, couple of years or something like that.

751
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:23,350
But the idea is you keep on resetting the threshold of when the inheritance will trigger.

752
00:46:23,690 --> 00:46:25,930
When it does, they get an email.

753
00:46:26,050 --> 00:46:30,150
It's time to receive your inheritance.

754
00:46:31,070 --> 00:46:33,970
They handhold through like download the app.

755
00:46:34,250 --> 00:46:35,710
Okay, now put in your three words.

756
00:46:35,890 --> 00:46:38,930
This identifies the account for them of which one they're supposed to claim.

757
00:46:39,290 --> 00:46:41,270
Put in this passphrase.

758
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:43,890
And then they have access to the money.

759
00:46:44,570 --> 00:46:47,050
You can also force hold your inheritors at that point.

760
00:46:47,050 --> 00:46:48,990
You can be like, you've got to wait 10 years to get this.

761
00:46:48,990 --> 00:47:05,610
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. You can do all kinds of fun things with it. So it's, you know, there's a whole bunch of like technical stuff in the background of how that works and what's going on there. But the long and the short of it is your family needs three words and a password. And then they will get an email and access the money.

762
00:47:05,610 --> 00:47:09,690
And the only sort of caveat there is you have to assume these companies still exist at that point.

763
00:47:10,470 --> 00:47:12,970
You can have a secondary.

764
00:47:13,870 --> 00:47:26,590
If I die in this calendar year and Nunchuck goes tits up and they don't have any sort of a offboarding after X amount of time,

765
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:33,030
then you can still access the funds by using these devices that I've left here with a file.

766
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:39,430
you know and so it's it's it would be a pain in the butt but it would be possible and recoverable

767
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:43,950
yeah i think same with casa um so i think the other thing that people need to understand

768
00:47:43,950 --> 00:47:48,410
you know if you're thinking of setting this up today is that let's just say for easy numbers

769
00:47:48,410 --> 00:47:52,650
you've got 10 grand of bitcoin yeah you're not securing ten thousand dollars you're securing

770
00:47:52,650 --> 00:47:57,230
what that might be in the future and and we all think bitcoin's going to a million dollars plus

771
00:47:57,230 --> 00:48:00,810
I don't know the timeframe, but give it 10 years, I've no doubt.

772
00:48:01,290 --> 00:48:05,750
So how seriously do you think people have to take that?

773
00:48:05,930 --> 00:48:07,890
I think it's pretty important.

774
00:48:08,110 --> 00:48:10,090
And it's not just important for you to get it set up,

775
00:48:10,170 --> 00:48:14,310
but it's important for you to start informing your next of kin

776
00:48:14,310 --> 00:48:18,770
roughly what happens when it's their time to claim that.

777
00:48:19,570 --> 00:48:25,910
I sit with my wife once a year and review what Bitcoin we have and where.

778
00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:27,550
I should do that.

779
00:48:27,810 --> 00:48:28,890
Yeah, that's a good idea.

780
00:48:30,030 --> 00:48:31,170
A nice date night.

781
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:32,330
Yeah, I know.

782
00:48:32,570 --> 00:48:34,210
Yeah, well, I mean,

783
00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:38,850
my wife was always very accommodative

784
00:48:38,850 --> 00:48:40,090
and tolerant.

785
00:48:41,150 --> 00:48:44,510
And then she began to be more upbeat

786
00:48:44,510 --> 00:48:45,630
and excited about things

787
00:48:45,630 --> 00:48:47,390
when our lives markedly improved.

788
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:50,430
So she's more than willing to sit down,

789
00:48:50,530 --> 00:48:52,790
you know, once a year to just make sure.

790
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:53,730
She's just waiting for the day

791
00:48:53,730 --> 00:48:54,710
you get hit by the bus, Ben.

792
00:48:54,710 --> 00:49:24,690
Thanks for explaining all that. Now turn around, look over there for a second, whack with a shovel. Yeah, no. Yeah, I think it's important. Even I know some people will be met with a family member that's very resistant, but it's just important to impart on them like, hey, there's been people in the past that have had the equivalent of a hundred bucks that they threw away that ended up being millions of dollars.

793
00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:30,650
later. So like you need to, you need to treat this seriously. And like, even if it seems like it,

794
00:49:30,970 --> 00:49:36,430
you know, not a super significant amount right now, uh, it could be, and you need to be prepared

795
00:49:36,430 --> 00:49:42,430
for that. So just having like a little sit down and, and for the love of God, when you sit down

796
00:49:42,430 --> 00:49:49,250
with your family, it can't be like you said, a treasure hunt. Yeah. You need to go to the third

797
00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:53,750
tree into the forest and then dig a hole. And when did you get access to my treasure?

798
00:49:53,750 --> 00:50:00,510
I think this is a bit more almost like philosophical, but I think there is an important thing as well.

799
00:50:00,630 --> 00:50:03,230
Like assuming we both live long, happy lives.

800
00:50:03,730 --> 00:50:04,710
I've got a young kid.

801
00:50:04,830 --> 00:50:05,630
I know you've got kids.

802
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:11,790
It's also like passing down the values that people like the importance of Bitcoin to your kids.

803
00:50:11,930 --> 00:50:12,970
Like Bitcoins have a lot of kids.

804
00:50:13,070 --> 00:50:14,790
We need to make sure we like keep this thing going.

805
00:50:15,050 --> 00:50:15,210
Yeah.

806
00:50:15,490 --> 00:50:15,690
Yeah.

807
00:50:15,690 --> 00:50:16,350
A hundred percent.

808
00:50:17,350 --> 00:50:22,970
I've had a number of proud dad moments with especially like my daughter's eight now.

809
00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:26,570
So she's definitely picking up on things. She's got her own little Bitcoin wallet.

810
00:50:27,050 --> 00:50:27,610
Love that.

811
00:50:28,050 --> 00:50:35,470
We've got a local Bitcoin market at home and she goes there. She knows how to buy things and pull up the wallet.

812
00:50:35,890 --> 00:50:42,790
We also actually, for her, she gets her allowance every week and we split it between cash and Bitcoin.

813
00:50:43,390 --> 00:50:48,770
So half of it always goes into savings, which is her Bitcoin. And then the other half is cash.

814
00:50:48,770 --> 00:51:07,770
And the thinking there is down the line, she's going to be looking at her Bitcoin wallet going, oh my God, this is so much money now, just from my allowance over however many years. And then we'll say, yeah, and you could have twice as much, but you took it in cash.

815
00:51:07,770 --> 00:51:11,050
and the cash obviously didn't appreciate.

816
00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:14,170
So it'll be that moment of like,

817
00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:18,010
oh, wow, if I save, look what happens.

818
00:51:18,830 --> 00:51:20,310
And it goes up in value.

819
00:51:20,450 --> 00:51:21,730
And so she's learning.

820
00:51:21,850 --> 00:51:24,490
We also actually set up like a hobby miner

821
00:51:24,490 --> 00:51:25,690
in the basement.

822
00:51:25,890 --> 00:51:26,310
That's cool.

823
00:51:26,450 --> 00:51:28,110
And it mines directly to her wallet.

824
00:51:28,110 --> 00:51:31,190
So she sees like 60 cents worth of sats

825
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:32,850
going into her wallet every single day.

826
00:51:33,250 --> 00:51:33,430
Love that.

827
00:51:33,490 --> 00:51:34,790
She gets excited about it.

828
00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:36,950
We're not at the allowance part yet.

829
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:40,190
She's too young, but she's been stacking Bitcoin since the day she was born.

830
00:51:40,290 --> 00:51:41,070
She just doesn't know it yet.

831
00:51:41,410 --> 00:51:48,150
But I think one of the really interesting dynamics that with people as young kids,

832
00:51:48,310 --> 00:51:54,190
we're going to have to kind of deal with is the fact that by the time they're 18 or 20 or whenever,

833
00:51:54,450 --> 00:51:56,730
they might be going into a world where no one works.

834
00:51:58,390 --> 00:52:00,290
It might be all...

835
00:52:00,290 --> 00:52:02,570
AI might have taken basically every job by that point.

836
00:52:02,570 --> 00:52:06,150
And it's like the hardest thing in the world

837
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:08,310
to predict the future that they're going to live in.

838
00:52:08,490 --> 00:52:10,190
I don't think there's ever been a time in history

839
00:52:10,190 --> 00:52:10,870
where it's been harder.

840
00:52:11,370 --> 00:52:12,830
But the one thing you can be sure of

841
00:52:12,830 --> 00:52:13,870
is that Bitcoin's going to be there.

842
00:52:14,410 --> 00:52:14,670
Yeah.

843
00:52:15,250 --> 00:52:17,830
And this, I mean, it's interesting,

844
00:52:18,370 --> 00:52:20,850
it's exciting, and it's terrifying all at the same time.

845
00:52:21,690 --> 00:52:23,730
Because, I mean, in a world

846
00:52:23,730 --> 00:52:29,630
where wealth wasn't siphoned off by an elite few,

847
00:52:30,010 --> 00:52:32,450
taking away purchasing power and allocating it

848
00:52:32,450 --> 00:52:40,290
where they see fit, the pie likely would have been a lot more evenly dispersed and people would have

849
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:47,450
been more able to kind of save for their future. But now you're in a situation where most people

850
00:52:47,450 --> 00:52:53,710
are, they're never going to own a home. They can't put anything away for savings. And pretty soon

851
00:52:53,710 --> 00:53:02,190
their jobs are not going to exist at all and they have no assets. And in a world where

852
00:53:02,190 --> 00:53:13,330
productivity goes way, way up because it's just machines and correspondingly asset values are

853
00:53:13,330 --> 00:53:20,130
probably going to continue to explode. And the cost of human labor is going to go to zero because

854
00:53:20,130 --> 00:53:21,130
nobody's going to want it.

855
00:53:21,930 --> 00:53:22,690
What do you do?

856
00:53:23,110 --> 00:53:26,030
Like, how do you do anything?

857
00:53:26,090 --> 00:53:28,150
There's so many dystopian outcomes

858
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:29,170
that could, like, again,

859
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:30,110
impossible to predict.

860
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:31,990
But if you're going to put

861
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:32,890
like a percentage on it,

862
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:33,830
it's going to be dystopian.

863
00:53:34,110 --> 00:53:35,530
Like, there's going to be likely

864
00:53:35,530 --> 00:53:37,590
a ton of UBI, people not working,

865
00:53:37,870 --> 00:53:38,950
ready player one type,

866
00:53:39,050 --> 00:53:39,630
live in your house

867
00:53:39,630 --> 00:53:40,950
and just go online all day.

868
00:53:41,430 --> 00:53:43,470
And this is why it's important.

869
00:53:43,590 --> 00:53:44,330
Like, if you have kids,

870
00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:45,370
stack that for your kids.

871
00:53:45,690 --> 00:53:47,490
You can do that UBI now with Bitcoin.

872
00:53:47,490 --> 00:53:51,730
I mean, the UBI, that's going to be the-

873
00:53:51,730 --> 00:53:52,630
I'm convinced it's happening.

874
00:53:52,770 --> 00:53:55,970
That's going to be the government's first response to-

875
00:53:55,970 --> 00:53:56,910
What else can they do, though?

876
00:53:57,710 --> 00:53:58,990
Ideologically, I don't agree with it,

877
00:53:59,070 --> 00:54:00,830
but I can't see how to do anything else.

878
00:54:00,830 --> 00:54:01,810
There's nothing else.

879
00:54:01,950 --> 00:54:06,690
There is nothing else that, you know, if-

880
00:54:06,690 --> 00:54:20,105
You know we been through Society has been through things before where entire industries have been replaced and people move to different industries But when almost everything disappears

881
00:54:21,765 --> 00:54:23,165
like what do you, again,

882
00:54:23,225 --> 00:54:25,345
when you combine AI and robotics

883
00:54:25,345 --> 00:54:27,545
and manual labor goes away,

884
00:54:28,465 --> 00:54:31,605
I don't, I don't know.

885
00:54:31,605 --> 00:54:31,965
Yeah.

886
00:54:32,105 --> 00:54:32,625
If you're a plumber,

887
00:54:32,705 --> 00:54:34,205
you might have five, 10 years,

888
00:54:34,325 --> 00:54:36,205
but eventually it's coming for everything.

889
00:54:36,205 --> 00:54:39,505
I did a show with Roman Jampolski yesterday.

890
00:54:39,885 --> 00:54:40,825
I think it was yesterday.

891
00:54:41,965 --> 00:54:45,905
And he thinks that like AI replaces all jobs

892
00:54:45,905 --> 00:54:46,765
within a decade.

893
00:54:47,065 --> 00:54:47,685
Oh my God.

894
00:54:48,265 --> 00:54:50,925
And I mean, he also thinks it's going to kill us all.

895
00:54:51,025 --> 00:54:52,485
So if it does, this won't be a huge problem.

896
00:54:52,785 --> 00:54:54,565
But assuming that doesn't happen,

897
00:54:54,705 --> 00:54:56,865
like the world is going to be wildly different.

898
00:54:57,245 --> 00:54:59,785
There's very few things that you can put total faith in,

899
00:55:00,005 --> 00:55:01,385
even existing in 10 years.

900
00:55:01,485 --> 00:55:03,865
But the thing that I think you can do that with is Bitcoin.

901
00:55:04,345 --> 00:55:04,565
Yeah.

902
00:55:04,565 --> 00:55:04,605
Yeah.

903
00:55:05,125 --> 00:55:05,505
Yeah.

904
00:55:05,505 --> 00:55:31,625
I mean, you're going to need – it's tough, man, because if the government first response to all like a complete destruction of jobs is UBI and they're trying to pay in their funny money that they're creating from nothing, who do you think is going to get the finger pointed at them first for the reason it's not working?

905
00:55:31,945 --> 00:55:35,365
The people with the money that can't be printed, right?

906
00:55:35,505 --> 00:55:43,265
you're the reason that UBI and it's going to be Nixon currency speculators all over again, right?

907
00:55:43,505 --> 00:55:44,725
You think they come for Bitcoiners?

908
00:55:46,345 --> 00:55:52,525
I mean, if everybody's out in the street and there's a subset of people that are all doing quite well,

909
00:55:54,085 --> 00:56:00,485
I mean, there's already like, you know, everybody already villainizes the rich.

910
00:56:00,485 --> 00:56:12,725
And again, right now, it can be misplaced because you can be rich and very productive and a net positive to society, or you can be rich because you're a leech.

911
00:56:13,845 --> 00:56:23,485
And people in positions of power in government where they're close to the money spigot, those are the leeches, but there's no differentiation for the average citizen.

912
00:56:24,225 --> 00:56:26,225
They just see, are you doing better than me?

913
00:56:26,545 --> 00:56:27,645
You're part of the problem.

914
00:56:28,445 --> 00:56:29,605
So even though as Bitcoiners,

915
00:56:29,685 --> 00:56:30,685
we're definitely not leeches,

916
00:56:31,105 --> 00:56:32,625
you still think we'll be seen as part of the problem?

917
00:56:33,125 --> 00:56:34,465
Yeah, because, I mean,

918
00:56:34,565 --> 00:56:36,285
what are the politicians going to do?

919
00:56:36,285 --> 00:56:39,045
The people that are actually in those positions,

920
00:56:39,145 --> 00:56:40,205
they want to keep those positions.

921
00:56:40,465 --> 00:56:41,805
They need a scapegoat.

922
00:56:42,365 --> 00:56:43,945
Look how well those Bitcoiners are doing.

923
00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:45,085
That's a scary world.

924
00:56:45,385 --> 00:56:46,945
I wish I'd never used my name or face.

925
00:56:47,785 --> 00:56:48,445
I know.

926
00:56:48,665 --> 00:56:50,525
I mean, you think you're bad.

927
00:56:50,585 --> 00:56:51,565
I've got this thing in my head.

928
00:56:51,685 --> 00:56:52,765
I'm very identifiable.

929
00:56:53,045 --> 00:56:53,885
You're spoiling for a mile off.

930
00:56:53,885 --> 00:56:56,325
Yeah, I'm going to be taking your haircut pretty soon

931
00:56:56,325 --> 00:56:58,745
just to blend into the crowd and ghost.

932
00:56:59,185 --> 00:57:00,425
I don't know how to tell you this.

933
00:57:00,445 --> 00:57:01,285
This isn't a choice.

934
00:57:03,065 --> 00:57:05,345
Is it worse that this was a choice?

935
00:57:06,025 --> 00:57:06,385
Absolutely.

936
00:57:06,905 --> 00:57:07,305
Yeah.

937
00:57:08,125 --> 00:57:10,425
So we've gone through a ton of stuff there

938
00:57:10,425 --> 00:57:11,205
of how to get started,

939
00:57:11,305 --> 00:57:12,725
how to go from sort of one to a hundred.

940
00:57:13,025 --> 00:57:14,805
I think an important thing is that

941
00:57:14,805 --> 00:57:16,545
this is like a journey.

942
00:57:17,105 --> 00:57:17,985
What you pick today

943
00:57:17,985 --> 00:57:19,185
doesn't have to be what you pick in the future.

944
00:57:19,585 --> 00:57:21,105
Like getting started is the important thing.

945
00:57:21,105 --> 00:57:22,145
Yeah, of course, of course.

946
00:57:23,885 --> 00:57:25,905
And there's kind of going to be

947
00:57:25,905 --> 00:57:28,945
like a choose your own adventure aspect to this.

948
00:57:29,625 --> 00:57:33,205
But just know that just because you've,

949
00:57:34,025 --> 00:57:38,865
there's not gonna be a hideously wrong answer, right?

950
00:57:39,145 --> 00:57:41,225
If you go to take self-custody,

951
00:57:41,605 --> 00:57:42,805
and I've just been saying,

952
00:57:42,925 --> 00:57:44,165
I'm not a big fan of ledger,

953
00:57:44,485 --> 00:57:45,625
and you go get a ledger,

954
00:57:46,585 --> 00:57:49,905
realistically, you're still way better off

955
00:57:49,905 --> 00:57:51,365
than sitting on an exchange.

956
00:57:52,085 --> 00:57:54,945
If you go to use some hardware,

957
00:57:54,945 --> 00:57:57,225
it's going to be better

958
00:57:57,225 --> 00:58:00,125
than relying on a custodian.

959
00:58:01,565 --> 00:58:04,465
It's just that you don't overcomplicate it

960
00:58:04,465 --> 00:58:06,625
and you don't lock yourself out of the Bitcoin.

961
00:58:06,845 --> 00:58:07,245
That's all.

962
00:58:07,385 --> 00:58:08,385
Yeah, 100%.

963
00:58:08,385 --> 00:58:09,645
Okay, before we close out,

964
00:58:09,725 --> 00:58:10,705
I want to talk to you a little bit

965
00:58:10,705 --> 00:58:12,405
about what's going on up in Canada.

966
00:58:12,525 --> 00:58:14,265
Because you said before you have a...

967
00:58:14,265 --> 00:58:15,965
I mean, we don't need to talk politics.

968
00:58:16,165 --> 00:58:17,305
I saw you wince then.

969
00:58:17,305 --> 00:58:18,385
No, no, it's good.

970
00:58:18,765 --> 00:58:20,145
But you were saying that your daughter

971
00:58:20,145 --> 00:58:21,605
goes to a Bitcoin market.

972
00:58:22,145 --> 00:58:22,365
Yes.

973
00:58:22,505 --> 00:58:23,785
Do you have a little circular economy

974
00:58:23,785 --> 00:58:24,485
building up there?

975
00:58:24,485 --> 00:58:47,665
Yeah. Yeah. I think this is super important. You know, obviously Bitcoin's an incredible savings technology, but at the end of the day, in a nightmare scenario, like we just discussed, scapegoat Bitcoiners, you know, let's outlaw Bitcoin. You can't hold it anymore. Confiscation, illegal to spend it, kind of, you know, on ramps and off ramps, turn, you know, shut down.

976
00:58:47,665 --> 00:58:55,485
what happens if you're the Bitcoiner that's a recluse that has never met another Bitcoiner in

977
00:58:55,485 --> 00:59:02,665
person and you've got this asset that's technically quite valuable even still, but in your jurisdiction

978
00:59:02,665 --> 00:59:13,605
you're not allowed to use it. How do you actually utilize that at home if there's no on and off ramp,

979
00:59:13,605 --> 00:59:16,645
if there's no merchants that you know of.

980
00:59:17,165 --> 00:59:20,365
And I think building a local Bitcoin community

981
00:59:20,365 --> 00:59:25,765
and circular economy is a very valid and important goal

982
00:59:25,765 --> 00:59:27,445
that a lot of people should have.

983
00:59:27,525 --> 00:59:31,825
So yeah, we started a local market in my city, Calgary.

984
00:59:34,005 --> 00:59:39,165
And at this point, we've got total merchants, I'm not sure.

985
00:59:39,205 --> 00:59:40,445
But every time we have a market,

986
00:59:40,565 --> 00:59:43,365
it's somewhere between 40 and 50 merchants that are there.

987
00:59:43,365 --> 00:59:44,225
All accepting Bitcoin.

988
00:59:44,945 --> 00:59:45,865
Yeah, every single one.

989
00:59:46,285 --> 00:59:47,945
It's only Bitcoin at the market.

990
00:59:48,845 --> 00:59:50,705
And so all of these merchants,

991
00:59:51,065 --> 00:59:54,925
and we've really pushed to try and get people that,

992
00:59:55,105 --> 00:59:56,725
yes, there's obviously artists

993
00:59:56,725 --> 00:59:58,245
and people with Bitcoin merchants,

994
00:59:58,345 --> 01:00:00,005
stuff like that, which is awesome.

995
01:00:00,505 --> 01:00:02,425
But we also wanted to make sure

996
01:00:02,425 --> 01:00:05,065
there was always stuff that you legitimately need.

997
01:00:05,185 --> 01:00:06,205
You want a butcher and a baker

998
01:00:06,205 --> 01:00:07,405
and all this kind of stuff.

999
01:00:07,485 --> 01:00:08,705
And we have all that stuff.

1000
01:00:08,805 --> 01:00:12,405
We have local farmers that bring eggs and beef and jerky

1001
01:00:12,405 --> 01:00:18,685
and all this different stuff. We have, you know, personal trainers. We have tradesmen. We have

1002
01:00:18,685 --> 01:00:22,965
a plumber. We have somebody who does flooring, electricians, all of these different things.

1003
01:00:23,105 --> 01:00:30,005
We have health professionals. We have my barber. We have a whole bunch of different things so that,

1004
01:00:30,825 --> 01:00:36,925
you know, and it's not just at the market that we transact. What I'm really trying to push is that

1005
01:00:36,925 --> 01:00:42,145
we create a society within a society. So it's like, you know, the secret handshake,

1006
01:00:42,205 --> 01:00:48,805
you know who to go to, to get, to get your beef for Bitcoin. And, um, I think that's,

1007
01:00:49,105 --> 01:00:58,645
it, it creates not only kind of this natural circular, you never need to exit Bitcoin again,

1008
01:00:58,645 --> 01:01:04,065
kind of mentality, but it also gets back to a day where you knew your butcher,

1009
01:01:04,065 --> 01:01:06,345
where you knew the people that you dealt with

1010
01:01:06,345 --> 01:01:07,825
and it wasn't just like a faceless company

1011
01:01:07,825 --> 01:01:08,805
because you see each other.

1012
01:01:08,925 --> 01:01:10,745
You have a bond.

1013
01:01:11,285 --> 01:01:13,465
And so, yeah, we've been doing this for,

1014
01:01:13,465 --> 01:01:16,785
I'm going to say a couple years now.

1015
01:01:16,885 --> 01:01:18,625
And we do it a few times a year.

1016
01:01:18,845 --> 01:01:22,065
But then I always put a challenge to the participants,

1017
01:01:22,405 --> 01:01:24,785
like find three other merchants here

1018
01:01:24,785 --> 01:01:27,705
that what they have you really need

1019
01:01:27,705 --> 01:01:28,925
and you really value what they do.

1020
01:01:29,005 --> 01:01:29,985
You think they do good work.

1021
01:01:30,305 --> 01:01:32,885
And I want you to transact with each one of them

1022
01:01:32,885 --> 01:01:36,365
at least once before the next market happens

1023
01:01:36,365 --> 01:01:38,985
so that there's this, again,

1024
01:01:39,105 --> 01:01:41,025
underlying community within a community.

1025
01:01:42,025 --> 01:01:44,925
And then if shit did hit the fan like that-

1026
01:01:44,925 --> 01:01:45,625
You have your crew.

1027
01:01:45,945 --> 01:01:47,945
Yeah, you're self-sufficient.

1028
01:01:48,125 --> 01:01:49,845
You can get most of what you need with Bitcoin.

1029
01:01:49,985 --> 01:01:51,725
I think the cool thing from the merchant side as well

1030
01:01:51,725 --> 01:01:53,325
is like, let's say you're a farmer.

1031
01:01:54,505 --> 01:01:57,045
Bitcoin, like they just get gouged consistently

1032
01:01:57,045 --> 01:01:58,845
from the supermarkets and places like that,

1033
01:01:58,965 --> 01:02:01,125
which always leads to degradation of quality.

1034
01:02:01,125 --> 01:02:03,225
and we know that like

1035
01:02:03,225 --> 01:02:04,785
Bitcoiners values

1036
01:02:04,785 --> 01:02:06,485
will pay more

1037
01:02:06,485 --> 01:02:07,765
to have better quality goods.

1038
01:02:07,925 --> 01:02:08,185
Yes.

1039
01:02:08,405 --> 01:02:09,885
And so like there is an incentive there

1040
01:02:09,885 --> 01:02:10,925
where they can make more money,

1041
01:02:11,345 --> 01:02:12,505
provide better quality stuff

1042
01:02:12,505 --> 01:02:14,565
and not have to deal with like

1043
01:02:14,565 --> 01:02:16,585
supermarkets and places like that.

1044
01:02:16,725 --> 01:02:16,945
Yeah.

1045
01:02:17,085 --> 01:02:17,925
There's this guy

1046
01:02:17,925 --> 01:02:20,485
and he always brings this jerky.

1047
01:02:21,145 --> 01:02:22,745
And so I don't know if you've ever

1048
01:02:22,745 --> 01:02:24,665
had the bull Bitcoin crew

1049
01:02:24,665 --> 01:02:25,725
is always bringing around.

1050
01:02:25,805 --> 01:02:28,545
They've got like branded bull Bitcoin jerky.

1051
01:02:29,225 --> 01:02:29,565
Anyways,

1052
01:02:29,865 --> 01:02:30,585
Albertan dude,

1053
01:02:31,125 --> 01:02:59,325
Uh, it's the best jerky I've ever tasted in my entire life. He comes to the sat market and he cleans up. He's sold out within two hours. And, uh, he's like, this is super worth it for me. Every time he drives hours and hours to get there every time. And he will never miss a market. Cause he's just, yeah. But it's like, the quality is just amazing. And, and you're right. Like when you're spending sats, there's this inclination.

1054
01:02:59,325 --> 01:03:05,685
Everybody says, oh, don't spend your Bitcoin. No, I think you, you, you can, even if you're

1055
01:03:05,685 --> 01:03:12,805
earning dollars, you can still kind of have like remain even spend and replace. And in doing so

1056
01:03:12,805 --> 01:03:19,225
only buy things that are worth the money, the type of money that you're spending. And what you're

1057
01:03:19,225 --> 01:03:28,125
doing is you're rewarding people that are creating quality products and you're spending quality

1058
01:03:28,125 --> 01:03:34,525
money with them. And you want the people in your community not to be creating trash.

1059
01:03:34,985 --> 01:03:39,525
You want to have good quality stuff. And again, in a world where shit hits the fan,

1060
01:03:40,145 --> 01:03:44,085
most of the products and services are going to be total garbage. So you need to surround

1061
01:03:44,085 --> 01:03:47,065
yourself with better people. But the don't spend your Bitcoin narrative is nonsense.

1062
01:03:47,405 --> 01:03:51,445
Any dollar you spend could be Bitcoin. So whether you're spending Bitcoin or you're spending dollars

1063
01:03:51,445 --> 01:03:54,905
or pounds or euros or whatever, you're doing the same thing. There's an opportunity cost to

1064
01:03:54,905 --> 01:03:58,585
everything. Like if you're a hundred percent Bitcoin, what are you going to spend? You've

1065
01:03:58,585 --> 01:04:04,445
only got Bitcoin. And so like, you know what you should get on, get on zero. Yeah, this is exactly

1066
01:04:04,445 --> 01:04:10,025
it. And this is how, I mean, I've been living on Bitcoin since, uh, since 2020. Zero dollars in

1067
01:04:10,025 --> 01:04:14,965
the bank account. I, the only dollars in the bank account are stuff that has to come out of a bank

1068
01:04:14,965 --> 01:04:23,425
account. So I get paid in Bitcoin, 95% of my income is Bitcoin and whatever comes in, I know

1069
01:04:23,425 --> 01:04:28,785
what bills have to come out. So I just convert that as soon as the invoices come in, plunk that

1070
01:04:28,785 --> 01:04:35,725
in the bank. And then I have bare minimum dollars just for that purpose. My wife, while I'm down

1071
01:04:35,725 --> 01:04:42,085
here, she's like, can you send me a bank transfer for $300? I was like, I cannot because otherwise

1072
01:04:42,085 --> 01:04:47,665
we won't be paying our car payment. But I'm like, I can send you Bitcoin and then you can

1073
01:04:47,665 --> 01:04:52,505
convert it. And she's like, okay. See, on a business level, I do have dollars in the bank

1074
01:04:52,505 --> 01:04:58,765
account. I need to get better at that. But on a personal level, I have like a little bit, but

1075
01:04:58,765 --> 01:05:03,385
almost like close to zero. And I just spend everything on a credit card throughout the month.

1076
01:05:03,385 --> 01:05:08,225
And then as soon as I get paid, pay that off. Everything else is just Bitcoin. And I've been

1077
01:05:08,225 --> 01:05:11,765
doing that for a few years now. And like there's times when it sucks and there's times when it's

1078
01:05:11,765 --> 01:05:15,825
great, but the times when it's great, definitely outweigh it. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Like it's

1079
01:05:15,825 --> 01:05:24,965
just, if you can, again, there's a very simple equation that, I mean, for the time being until

1080
01:05:24,965 --> 01:05:29,985
AI takes over, will do very well for a lot of people. Create value for others, spend less than

1081
01:05:29,985 --> 01:05:35,525
you earn, and save in a money that nobody else can print, you're going to be pretty well off.

1082
01:05:35,965 --> 01:05:40,945
Yeah. And if you're already in that money, then you don't even have to do an extra step in between.

1083
01:05:40,945 --> 01:05:45,085
So how do you start a Bitcoin circular economy, Bitcoin market?

1084
01:05:45,165 --> 01:05:46,045
Because I live in Brisbane.

1085
01:05:46,285 --> 01:05:47,485
We have a meetup every month.

1086
01:05:47,585 --> 01:05:49,085
I'm never there for it because it happens to fall.

1087
01:05:49,245 --> 01:05:50,785
It seems to be always when I travel.

1088
01:05:51,105 --> 01:05:52,185
But when I do go, it's good.

1089
01:05:52,365 --> 01:05:53,165
There's a lot of people there.

1090
01:05:53,385 --> 01:05:57,165
And I think if you try to set something up, you could probably get it started.

1091
01:05:57,485 --> 01:06:00,565
But how did you get it to the point where you have like 50 merchants or whatever it is?

1092
01:06:00,985 --> 01:06:10,285
So I started going to the meetup and requesting to take five minutes at the beginning of each meetup

1093
01:06:10,285 --> 01:06:14,865
and just say, hey, I'm looking for the following thing

1094
01:06:14,865 --> 01:06:17,265
that somebody would accept Bitcoin for.

1095
01:06:17,365 --> 01:06:18,365
I'm looking for a plumber.

1096
01:06:18,525 --> 01:06:19,585
I'm looking for whatever.

1097
01:06:20,305 --> 01:06:26,785
And oftentimes, either it would be somebody in the room does that thing

1098
01:06:26,785 --> 01:06:30,785
or it would be somebody in the room knows somebody who does that thing.

1099
01:06:30,785 --> 01:06:34,905
So then they go to that friend who very possibly not a Bitcoiner,

1100
01:06:35,085 --> 01:06:36,245
but they plant that seed.

1101
01:06:36,245 --> 01:06:41,985
hey somebody's asking you know if if there's a plumber that would accept bitcoin you know would

1102
01:06:41,985 --> 01:06:47,785
you ever do that maybe they say no but like curiosity is peaked and then so i i started

1103
01:06:47,785 --> 01:06:53,185
doing that and and then i also started encouraging people at the meetup to get up and you know like

1104
01:06:53,185 --> 01:06:57,645
we all know this is better money we all earn dollars then buy bitcoin with the dollars

1105
01:06:57,645 --> 01:07:02,865
what if you can on occasion why not cut out that step when somebody pays you in bitcoin so i started

1106
01:07:02,865 --> 01:07:09,425
encouraging people to stand up and be like, oh, I actually do this. And I'd be happy to accept

1107
01:07:09,425 --> 01:07:14,825
Bitcoin for it. And not just once, like every, hey, as a reminder, so-and-so does this,

1108
01:07:15,205 --> 01:07:20,705
there's our plumber, there's the flooring guy, there's the personal trainer. If anybody needs

1109
01:07:20,705 --> 01:07:25,245
any of this stuff, they all accept Bitcoin. So hit them up. I started doing that a bit more regularly.

1110
01:07:26,025 --> 01:07:32,345
And then it was kind of end of the year, one year, and I saw something, people were whining about

1111
01:07:32,345 --> 01:07:39,105
regulations on like choke point 2.0 style clamp down on what you could do with exchanges and

1112
01:07:39,105 --> 01:07:42,125
thing. And everybody is whining about it and bitching about it and kind of shooting the

1113
01:07:42,125 --> 01:07:45,485
messenger. The one exchange that came out and said like, Hey guys, just so you know,

1114
01:07:45,505 --> 01:07:49,405
you can't do this before you go on or off or exchange. It was coin join or something.

1115
01:07:50,285 --> 01:07:54,985
Everybody's trying to shoot the messenger. I was like, guys, you get like, well, do something

1116
01:07:54,985 --> 01:08:00,925
about it. And for me, the thing that you do is you don't require the on and off ramps to get your

1117
01:08:00,925 --> 01:08:06,885
Bitcoin or use your Bitcoin. And that's the way that it becomes completely unshakable. Yeah,

1118
01:08:06,905 --> 01:08:10,705
somebody could shut down the exchange that I need to use to get dollars or get Bitcoin.

1119
01:08:11,125 --> 01:08:16,925
But if somebody could tell me I can't go to my friend Frank and get eggs and pay him in sats,

1120
01:08:17,305 --> 01:08:23,385
good luck. Just demand to be paid in Bitcoin. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so we did that a

1121
01:08:23,385 --> 01:08:28,365
little bit, but right around that time where I saw that story, I don't know why it just really

1122
01:08:28,365 --> 01:08:33,405
riled me up. So I reached out, went to the meetup. I was like, we're doing this. We're doing it in

1123
01:08:33,405 --> 01:08:39,345
four weeks. And we put together a market. We had 30 merchants at our first market. And with four

1124
01:08:39,345 --> 01:08:46,065
weeks prep time, we found a venue. We went and we just kind of hodgepodge it together. And yeah,

1125
01:08:46,065 --> 01:08:52,605
the most challenging part is getting people to stay in contact and keep interacting in between

1126
01:08:52,605 --> 01:08:59,085
markets. But it becomes like a fun social event. People super keen just to get together, not even

1127
01:08:59,085 --> 01:09:03,405
to have to listen to talks or anything, but just to interact. And everybody's so like-minded and

1128
01:09:03,405 --> 01:09:09,885
just happy to come together. It's been great. We've got another one coming up in December and we try

1129
01:09:09,885 --> 01:09:14,045
to pair other things with it. So we'll have the market. And then the day after we all drive up to

1130
01:09:14,045 --> 01:09:19,645
the mountains and stay in Banff for a weekend. I can't do December. When is the next one after?

1131
01:09:19,645 --> 01:09:27,145
I'm coming. That'll be in Calgary last week of June. No skiing then. Yeah, but we're still going

1132
01:09:27,145 --> 01:09:32,945
to go to the mountains. I'm coming when it's snowy. Well, you should come in the summer too.

1133
01:09:33,045 --> 01:09:37,205
The hiking's amazing. So we're going to go up and there's hot springs and there's a whole bunch of

1134
01:09:37,205 --> 01:09:44,105
stuff. We'll do a hike. Last time we went, we did a workshop. We did like a Bitcoin workshop out in

1135
01:09:44,105 --> 01:09:47,845
the mountains. And then before the workshop started, we hiked up a mountain and back down.

1136
01:09:48,545 --> 01:09:49,445
I was in Banff.

1137
01:09:49,605 --> 01:09:51,105
Like, when would it have been?

1138
01:09:51,305 --> 01:09:52,105
21, maybe.

1139
01:09:52,365 --> 01:09:52,525
Yeah.

1140
01:09:53,005 --> 01:09:53,985
It would have been that winter.

1141
01:09:54,105 --> 01:09:55,125
So either 21 or 22.

1142
01:09:55,345 --> 01:09:55,505
Yeah.

1143
01:09:56,985 --> 01:09:57,785
Stayed at that hotel.

1144
01:09:57,865 --> 01:09:58,445
It's like Hogwarts.

1145
01:09:59,085 --> 01:09:59,645
Oh, yeah.

1146
01:09:59,725 --> 01:10:00,785
In the Banff Springs.

1147
01:10:00,905 --> 01:10:01,425
It was incredible.

1148
01:10:01,545 --> 01:10:01,785
Yeah.

1149
01:10:02,025 --> 01:10:02,625
That place is amazing.

1150
01:10:02,645 --> 01:10:03,465
We went up to Lake Louise.

1151
01:10:03,585 --> 01:10:04,365
It was very cool.

1152
01:10:04,985 --> 01:10:06,405
Next time you do one in winter,

1153
01:10:06,465 --> 01:10:06,865
I'm coming in.

1154
01:10:06,905 --> 01:10:07,425
We can go snowboarding.

1155
01:10:07,425 --> 01:10:08,765
Next time you come,

1156
01:10:09,285 --> 01:10:12,165
come stay in the Bitcoin Hotel.

1157
01:10:12,605 --> 01:10:13,465
Is there a Bitcoin Hotel?

1158
01:10:13,565 --> 01:10:14,665
There's a hotel.

1159
01:10:14,805 --> 01:10:15,525
They accept Bitcoin.

1160
01:10:15,645 --> 01:10:16,445
They're a part of the market.

1161
01:10:16,445 --> 01:10:22,445
If you go into the lobby, you'll find a little bookshelf and it has like Bitcoin standard,

1162
01:10:22,445 --> 01:10:27,485
a bunch of other like awesome, and even like tangential, like the fourth turning and the

1163
01:10:27,485 --> 01:10:30,205
sovereign individual all on this little bookshelf as you enter.

1164
01:10:30,205 --> 01:10:31,705
Does it look like Hogwarts though?

1165
01:10:31,705 --> 01:10:32,945
Because that place was incredible.

1166
01:10:32,945 --> 01:10:39,285
It doesn't, but it's got awesome steam rooms and a cold plunge and a nice pool.

1167
01:10:39,285 --> 01:10:40,285
Sold.

1168
01:10:40,285 --> 01:10:42,105
And it's, they just renovated.

1169
01:10:42,105 --> 01:10:45,745
It's called the Kenrick, but this guy, Jeff, owns it,

1170
01:10:45,765 --> 01:10:46,825
and he's an awesome Bitcoin.

1171
01:10:46,965 --> 01:10:49,685
He's super keen, and he gives discounts for Bitcoin.

1172
01:10:49,905 --> 01:10:50,665
Okay, sold.

1173
01:10:51,445 --> 01:10:52,225
Challenge accepted.

1174
01:10:52,605 --> 01:10:55,045
The next meetup I'll be in in Brisbane is in November.

1175
01:10:55,325 --> 01:10:56,565
So first Thursday of November,

1176
01:10:56,565 --> 01:10:59,145
if you live anywhere near Brisbane, come and let's set this up.

1177
01:10:59,345 --> 01:10:59,705
Hell yeah.

1178
01:11:00,545 --> 01:11:01,585
Sessions, this has been amazing.

1179
01:11:01,765 --> 01:11:02,405
Dude, thank you.

1180
01:11:02,465 --> 01:11:03,065
Appreciate it.

1181
01:11:03,165 --> 01:11:04,285
Anywhere you want to send anyone,

1182
01:11:04,365 --> 01:11:06,325
where do they find your nine-and-a-half-year-old YouTube channel?

1183
01:11:06,445 --> 01:11:07,185
Yes, yes.

1184
01:11:07,365 --> 01:11:09,705
So yeah, you can find me, BTC Sessions, on YouTube.

1185
01:11:09,705 --> 01:11:18,465
But if you're a person that's maybe coming in, you're relatively new and you just want a well curated kind of like, what do I do next type thing?

1186
01:11:18,845 --> 01:11:26,005
I set up a learn page that I've just kind of hand selected some very specific videos that you can just go through.

1187
01:11:26,205 --> 01:11:30,445
If you can get through that page, you're going to have more skills than most Bitcoiners.

1188
01:11:30,945 --> 01:11:35,085
It's just btcsessions.ca, Canadian slash learn.

1189
01:11:35,085 --> 01:11:36,905
and if you go there,

1190
01:11:37,005 --> 01:11:38,685
it's going to have exchange,

1191
01:11:38,805 --> 01:11:39,885
hot wallet, cold wallet

1192
01:11:39,885 --> 01:11:42,385
and then some additional advanced skills

1193
01:11:42,385 --> 01:11:43,765
if you want to level up beyond that.

1194
01:11:44,025 --> 01:11:44,325
Perfect.

1195
01:11:44,565 --> 01:11:45,105
Thank you, man.

1196
01:11:45,145 --> 01:11:47,305
I know you're on your fitness regime

1197
01:11:47,305 --> 01:11:48,585
and I made you drink beer, but...

1198
01:11:48,585 --> 01:11:49,765
I mean, you know,

1199
01:11:49,885 --> 01:11:51,265
I take low breaks here and there.

1200
01:11:51,385 --> 01:11:52,085
It's beefsteak tonight.

1201
01:11:52,205 --> 01:11:53,065
You got to have a couple of beers.

1202
01:11:53,065 --> 01:11:53,545
Yeah, exactly.

1203
01:11:53,685 --> 01:11:55,445
A few steaks will offset the beer.

1204
01:11:55,725 --> 01:11:56,105
All right.

1205
01:11:56,185 --> 01:11:56,665
Thank you, man.

1206
01:11:56,705 --> 01:11:57,045
This has been great.

1207
01:11:57,305 --> 01:11:57,485
Cheers.

1208
01:11:57,645 --> 01:11:57,885
Cheers.

1209
01:12:05,085 --> 01:12:35,065
Thank you.