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We've gone from, you know, governments didn't even pay attention to what we did, to now both

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things are happening.

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A, they are showing up at our conferences, and we're showing up at the Capitol.

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And so I think it's a pretty clear sign that Bitcoin's growing up.

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I've seen what it can do.

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Because of that, I don't think there's a price you can put on it.

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There is no top.

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because what it can do has no price.

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This episode is brought to you by the massive legend, Iron,

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Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and in every bull market,

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there's always a new wave of investors and with it,

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a flood of new companies, new products and new promises.

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But if you've been around long enough, you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them.

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Some cut corners, take risks with your money or just disappear.

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That's why when it comes to buying Bitcoin, the only exchange I recommend is River.

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they deeply care about doing things right for their clients and are built to last with security

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and transparency at their core with river you have peace of mind knowing all their bitcoin is held in

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there really is no better place to buy bitcoin so to open an account today head over to river.com

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forward slash wbd and earn up to 100 in bitcoin when you buy that's river.com forward slash wbd

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Mauricio, thank you for coming back on the show, man.

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It's a real pleasure.

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First time on the new What Bitcoin Did.

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It is.

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I think this completes my triple crown of What Bitcoin Did.

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I did the OG one with Peter.

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I did Mr. Obnoxious.

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And now we get to do the new What Bitcoin Did.

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I think you're the only person that's done them all.

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No way.

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Oh, no, no.

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There is others.

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Matthew Pines has been on them all.

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Okay.

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I think David Zell has been on them all.

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It's a small crew, though.

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It's good company.

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It is good company.

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especially considering we're here in DC for those guys.

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You know what's funny?

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I hadn't been to DC in my life before.

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I hadn't been ever.

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This year, I've been twice already,

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scheduled to be back another two times

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for what's left of the year.

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And I think that speaks volumes

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to where the Bitcoin attention or narrative

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has moved to or is going to.

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Totally.

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we've gone from

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you know governments

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didn't even pay attention to what we did

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to now

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both things are happening

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A, they are showing up at our conferences

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and we're showing up at the capital

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and so I think it's

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a pretty clear sign that

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Bitcoin's growing up

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It's pretty amazing, I was having a conversation today

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with someone, I don't know if he'd want me to dox him

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so I'll just be very vague, but someone who works

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for the government about the whole

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operator knots versus core thing. And like, he really knows what he's talking about. And so

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there's people like that inside the government now. It's wild. I love hearing that. And it's

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funny. When I was in Vegas, I spoke with, I think it was a representative out of New Hampshire.

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And I just, there's a chance encounter in the press section and we just got talking.

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And I was really surprised at how much they know and how much they understand

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And for a politician, right?

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And this guy was like early, you know, maybe late 50s.

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That's kind of what I would think his age is.

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But he knew, you know, the challenges and the benefits, the potential risks from a regulatory perspective.

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But I've been pretty happily surprised at how quickly they seem to be getting up to speed.

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And not just in the government.

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I think there's also really smart people like that in some big corporations, right?

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They are ultimately the champions that are putting forward these ideas, whether it's,

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you know, for buying Bitcoin for treasury or for supporting Bitcoin for rails of payments,

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Steak and Shake, you know, probably the champion in there.

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So these champions are starting to pop up everywhere.

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And I think it bodes well for the future of Bitcoin.

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It totally does.

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I mean, it has any of the kind of regulatory stuff that's going through at the moment.

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Does it have any impact on what you're doing at Leaden?

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things like the Genius Act maybe in particular?

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So the Genius Act is very stablecoin specific.

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We do support stablecoins.

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So I think in that sense,

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the Genius Act is making people around the globe

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more comfortable interacting with these instruments.

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So to the extent that it's going to make more people

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want to try this technology or these rails

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to access financial services like the ones we offer,

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then yes, I think it will make it,

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it will remove one friction point from people considering these types of instruments.

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So in that sense, it helps.

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I think the other one that I would say, which was behind the scenes,

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there haven't been per se direct implications as far as regulation on the lending markets.

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For the benefit of people listening, lending markets are regulated on a state-by-state level.

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In the US, there's no federal lending requirements.

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I don't know if I actually knew that.

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Yeah.

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So in the US, it's a state-by-state.

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And so that's also why you see that Letit is available in some states and not in others.

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And so it really varies from state to state.

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Some countries have different ways of structuring this, but that's how it works in the U.S.

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So no lending specific law around crypto has been passed to date.

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There's been states that have passed sort of overarching regulation for crypto.

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So examples of that would be places like California.

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And so the licensing regime or requirement for a company like us in a state like California is different than, say, the state of Florida.

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And so no legislation has had direct implications to lending as far as this administration goes to date.

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But the one that has had an impact indirect was the repeal of SAB 121 and the change in guidance from the Federal Reserve recently,

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which is basically greenlighting banks for or allowing them to participate in this space.

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So not surprisingly, you saw the announcement recently, JP Morgan saying,

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we're now going to start considering lending against ETFs and a few other things around that note or around that front.

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But the other one is, forget this name, Pulte is his Twitter handle.

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He's the head of the federal housing financing.

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I saw this just recently.

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Or agency, sorry.

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And they said they were going to consider taking Bitcoin as collateral for housing.

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Yes.

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Or look into it at least.

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Exactly.

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And mind you, it's not a done deal.

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It's just a statement.

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Yeah.

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But I think it just signals the desire of the United States to embrace this technology.

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Yeah.

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And I think that they finally understand that they stand to benefit tremendously.

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Absolutely.

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Not just from stable coins.

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The narrative around why they benefit from stable coins is pretty clear now.

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They buy the U.S. debt.

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They perpetuate the use of the dollar internationally.

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Everybody gets that.

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What I think they're also understanding now is that the way I like to think of the world,

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and more so maybe in an overly simplistic way because I grew up in Venezuela,

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there's when you're in a place like Venezuela and you make money, right?

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But similar to a place like China, similar to a place like, you know, the Middle East or other places around the world where property rights are not historically not been great.

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Yeah. Right. So I like to think of when people make money, they want to send money to what they consider to be their happy place.

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And in many cases, their happy place is in the United States. Right.

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But these governments, China, Venezuela, and others, put these arbitrary restrictions to prevent people from taking the money they've made and taking it out of the country.

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So they try to force people to reinvest locally, even though they never protect people's property rights locally.

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And there's always this tension between people saying, I want money to be in my happy place, and the government saying, no, I want you to keep it.

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I want to force you to keep it here.

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And I think what the U.S. understands is that Bitcoin enables money to go to its happy place.

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And to understand what the happy place is, you can think of the happy place as where are these wealthy individuals sending their kids to go to school?

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Usually, that's where they want their money to be, too.

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If you look at Venezuela, wealthy people want to encourage their kids to go to school in the US or parts of Europe or other places where property rights are historically been stronger.

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And so I think the US gets the benefit of stable coins, gets the benefit of Bitcoin, and they're trying to become the go-to market for anyone wanting to build or keep their Bitcoin safe.

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they're trying to become a safe haven for this industry,

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which I think is very strategically smart on their part.

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I totally agree.

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And I think one of the biggest risks to this

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is that it becomes a partisan issue,

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which obviously the BPI folks here

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are working really hard to make sure that's not the case.

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But in everything you said there,

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there's loads I want to get into,

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but let's start with Ledin.

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You guys are absolutely crushing it.

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Are you now the biggest lenders in the space?

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We are, as per the Galaxy report,

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and not by a small amount.

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which I still get pleasantly surprised when I see that.

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But yes, we are today, as per the report, the second largest lender in CeFi.

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That said, that report includes institutional and consumer lenders, both in the same chart.

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If you separate the institutional lenders like Tether, Coinbase, 2Prime, and a few others,

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Lennon is by and far the largest consumer lending by market share.

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I think, in fact, if you add up every other consumer lender in that report,

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it doesn't come up to let us market share.

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So you really are crushing.

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So we are doing very, very well.

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But I think that speaks again to the way

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or what people value from a company

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when they're looking to put their Bitcoin as collateral,

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which is history has shown us

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that not every lender is created equally

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or operates equally.

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And I think people have seen

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seven years of trajectory from us,

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always standing right by our clients.

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We were the first ones to do perverser.

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We were the first ones to do what we did, Canada's first Bitcoin-back loan.

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And I think that a lot of the simplicity and transparency that we built over the years

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and our discipline, as far as like the assets we support and the things we offer,

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is what a lot of people are looking for from a lender, right?

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And so, yeah, I mean, we are, I guess, to answer your question, as per the report, yes,

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we are the biggest lender in the consumer world today. And we want to keep that lead. And this is

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why we are doubling down on what we do best, which is Bitcoin-backed loans. I think it's incredible.

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And like one of your recent announcements, I think in Vegas, was that you're getting rid of

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all rehypothecation. Yes. And you've got rid of the Ethereum products, which, so full disclosure,

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by the time this episode goes out, hopefully you guys are going to be a sponsor of the podcast.

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And like, I've been really conscious about the companies you bring on as sponsors for this

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podcast because obviously we've got a history where like blockfi sponsored for a long time they

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didn't sponsor when they collapsed but they were a sponsor for a long time and like it's something

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that i take really seriously and so when you told me that this was happening i was like let's fucking

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go this is the product that i can like now like fully stand behind i use like it's i think they

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like the time has come now for bitcoin lending and i want to kind of maybe we should set the stage a

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little bit here where there's obviously a lot of ptsd around it because of things like blockfi and

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Celsius and that whole collapse.

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You were operational through that whole thing.

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And you were one of the only, if not the only company

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that actually survived who were operating in the space then.

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So like what's changed from the BlockFi Celsius days?

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Yeah, it's a great question.

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And I like to break it down in a way

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that people can understand the real,

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because it's a very nuanced comparison

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in the sense that on the surface,

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A lot of these companies look like they did the same thing.

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Yeah.

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But the thing with lending is that it's not really about the app and the rate you get and the LTV, right?

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A lot of it comes down to how are you funding those loans?

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What are you doing with the collateral?

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And very importantly, what other products are you offering alongside the loan?

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Yeah.

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Because what brought down Celsius, Voyager, BlockFi, and a bunch of others were not their over collateralized Bitcoin-backed loans.

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It was their unsecured loans for their yield products.

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All with three hours capital.

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Voyager had about 67% of all loans out to three hours when three hours collapsed.

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That was an insurmountable hole for them.

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Keep in mind, they got no collateral from three hours.

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But let me explain how that flow works, right? Most of these companies, in fact, all of them, BlockFi, Celsius, Genesis, and Voyager, all four firms offered loans and also offered yield.

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And they offered loans backed by a plethora of digital assets and yield on a plethora of digital assets.

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In order to generate the yield, they would have to take deposits from people and then lend them out to institutions.

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Most of these loans, if not all of these loans, were done uncollateralized.

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So effectively, you were taking a million dollars from Bill, lending it to Three Arrows, and hoping Three Arrows was good for it when Bill wanted to come and withdraw his money.

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It was the yield product that generated the majority of the losses for these firms.

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The over-collateralized loan products, short of them having re-hypothecated the collateral to the nth degree, which they were also guilty of doing, by the way, that product has risk when you're doing things with the collateral.

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There's always risk when you're lending the collateral.

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Because a lot of that collateral was also being lent partially collateralized or uncollateralized.

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Right. So if there is a loss on the yield product and you don't have the proper ring fencing of the legal entities, it's like you have a ship that has no compartments in the bottom.

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And no matter when or where water starts coming into the ship, the boat, the entire boat sinks.

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You don't have the option to shut off this compartment and save the rest of the boat.

245
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Right. None of these firms have that legal separation.

246
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What does that look like?

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I'll give you an example, right?

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You know, there's companies like 3iQ or other firms like Fidelity, et cetera, that offer ETFs, right?

249
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And when you buy the ETF, you're told, hey, this is a gold miner ETF.

250
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Here's the four companies that are in it.

251
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You're taking the risk.

252
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If any one of these four firms goes down, the ETF units gets priced, you know, accordingly or proportionally.

253
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When that happens, you don't go and say, oh, my God, Fidelity, right?

254
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Like, why did you do that?

255
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Right?

256
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They were very upfront.

257
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They told you this product has nothing to do with every other service we provide via the Fidelity umbrella.

258
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This is an ETF that we're putting out in the market with these components.

259
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The risk is on you, and the risk is contained to this vehicle.

260
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Right?

261
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,260
None of the firms had that in the previous life.

262
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Lennon discontinued its yield product, importantly.

263
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And that's a big part of the changes that we announced.

264
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But even before we discontinued the yield product, we did have that proper ring fencing.

265
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We're getting rid of it because we want to focus debt square on over collateralized dollar loans backed by Bitcoin.

266
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So even when you had the yield product, it was like a segregated thing that couldn't cause a systemic issue.

267
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But let's talk about, because they're not there anymore.

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These products are gone.

269
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So why?

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Why have you gone back to just the core product of non-rehypothecated Bitcoin lending?

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Why?

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00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,980
We believe Bitcoin backed loans are a multi-billion dollar opportunity today.

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We believe that if done responsibly, this product triggers a virtuous cycle for the lender and for the borrower.

274
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Because for the lender, it's amazing collateral.

275
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And for the borrower, it opens you to global financial services regardless of where you are in the world.

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And given the relationship between holding a hard asset as collateral and taking a loan in a structurally debasing currency, there's a tailwind to your debt because of the devaluation of the currency you're taking the debt in.

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We've seen our clients do incredibly well when they use their products responsibly from 2018 to today.

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We believe that is going to continue, and we believe that it's only going to become cheaper and more accessible to people.

279
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We need to win at that.

280
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We want to win at that.

281
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We have the leading position in the market today.

282
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We have the longest track record, if not the longest track record.

283
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,180
We have built the things that we believe Bitcoiners want to see.

284
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And we want to remove any and all distractions possible for us to be solely focused on that goal.

285
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So the changes, just to recap, we have moved to a exclusively custody loan model. So at all times, the collateral of Leiden sits in custody of either Leiden or one of our partners. There is no relending of that collateral at any time. It sits in a segregated address. And when we pledge it to our counterparts to draw liquidity from, we pledge it in trust for Leiden.

286
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So it does not form part of the bank's assets in case of an unlikely bankruptcy.

287
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,800
But it's also held at a segregated address that we can see at all times.

288
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So that's the type of loan we want to do.

289
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:25,700
It's fully transparent.

290
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,580
It is, in our view, the safest way to offer this in a scalable way.

291
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,020
We're going to keep getting even better at proof of reserves.

292
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So I can't really share too much on that, but that's coming.

293
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:37,320
Okay.

294
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:46,620
And so that's the first change is no more rehypothecation or no more re-lending of any Bitcoin place as collateral for Lennon.

295
00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:49,800
We used to offer two loans, standard loans and custody loans.

296
00:18:50,060 --> 00:18:53,960
Standard loans have gone away as of July 1st, only custody loans going forward.

297
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,380
The second one is we are getting rid of support for ETH.

298
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Love to see it.

299
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:00,120
For Ethereum.

300
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,280
So maybe it's worth actually talking about that because while I think Ethereum is the biggest of all shit coins,

301
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,640
like technically you could do the same thing with Ethereum

302
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:10,940
in the sense that you could do

303
00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:12,980
non-rehypothecated loans with them.

304
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,880
So what's the reasoning to get rid of that?

305
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,600
Is it because there's just not that much demand?

306
00:19:17,780 --> 00:19:18,060
Yes.

307
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,480
So number one is, it's a nuanced answer,

308
00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:23,900
but basically to walk you through it,

309
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,120
we offered Ethereum for about a year and a half.

310
00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:29,100
And largely we brought it on

311
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:31,000
to help bring Celsius clients out of bankruptcy

312
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,740
because the bankruptcy court determined

313
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:37,780
that Celsius victims to roll their loans into a new lender,

314
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,200
and they would do this for many tax benefits primarily.

315
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,460
But a lot of these guys, and particularly the large guys,

316
00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,540
wanted an option to refinance their loan out of the bankruptcy

317
00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:51,700
into a new lender instead of taking this set-off treatment.

318
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:53,880
And we can get into the details of why they would do that.

319
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,820
But the point is they really wanted to do it.

320
00:19:56,380 --> 00:19:59,340
A lot of these guys were also clients of Ledin when Celsius went down

321
00:19:59,340 --> 00:20:01,620
because many people used to be diversified.

322
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:03,360
across lenders.

323
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,580
So they had loans at BlockFi,

324
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:05,300
loans at Celsius,

325
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:05,980
loans at Leiden.

326
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:07,200
And obviously-

327
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,660
Where really all that diversification was

328
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:09,880
was like Leiden and everyone else.

329
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:10,320
Basically.

330
00:20:11,620 --> 00:20:13,320
There's a comment from some,

331
00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:15,000
Tim Copeland actually,

332
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:16,280
and this is a public tweet,

333
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:17,260
so I don't mind referencing it.

334
00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:18,900
But he says, you know,

335
00:20:18,940 --> 00:20:21,860
my worst mistake in 2021 was

336
00:20:21,860 --> 00:20:23,220
I withdrew funds from Leiden

337
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:24,140
and took them to FTX.

338
00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:24,940
Oh damn.

339
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:26,440
That's a mess.

340
00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:28,300
And so, yeah.

341
00:20:29,060 --> 00:20:29,740
But anyway,

342
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:30,720
people were diversified

343
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:31,560
across these other lenders.

344
00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:34,300
And obviously, the only thing remaining was their loan loans, right?

345
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:40,540
And when they were getting pitched to refi their loans out of bankruptcy, they had offers

346
00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:42,160
from a bunch of lenders they had never heard of.

347
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,720
Some of them didn't even have a big comeback loan product.

348
00:20:44,820 --> 00:20:47,020
They just wanted to scoop up the assets from the bankruptcy.

349
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:53,540
And one of the guys that was one of the key claimants from Celsius came to me, asked for

350
00:20:53,540 --> 00:20:53,960
a call.

351
00:20:54,140 --> 00:20:55,660
He says, can you help us?

352
00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:59,780
And anyway, long story short, we worked with them.

353
00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:02,520
We understood that if we didn't have Ethereum, they wouldn't be able to come to us.

354
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,100
And we thought that was a really great opportunity to bring these people and showed them that these things can be done right.

355
00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:11,760
Also, selfishly, it was in a way of increasing our book.

356
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:19,380
And so we said, OK, well, let's give this a go and try to support it to bring these guys over and see how it pans out.

357
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,800
We also had supported Ethereum Rails for a long time because we use them for stable coins.

358
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,960
So we were familiar with the pipes and basically our custodian already supported it.

359
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,280
So it wasn't that huge of a lift to support it for the purposes of this refinancing.

360
00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:33,580
So that was done.

361
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:38,040
We got 70% of all Celsius loans came to us.

362
00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:41,180
The other ones that couldn't was because there were jurisdictions we couldn't service.

363
00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:46,040
So primarily, that worked in that we brought on a lot of them.

364
00:21:46,140 --> 00:21:47,100
They were immensely grateful.

365
00:21:47,260 --> 00:21:49,040
Many of them sold their ETH and went to Bitcoin immediately.

366
00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:52,720
Some of them stayed in ETH, but very small minority.

367
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:58,200
over the course of a year and a half after that at its peak ETH made up five percent of our loan

368
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,220
book when we made the announcement ETH was down to two percent of our loan book wow and when you

369
00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:07,300
so really it's just a distraction at that point absolutely you nailed it and so it was something

370
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:12,080
that whenever you want to build a new feature a new thing that we want to add to the Bitcoin

371
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,480
back loan product we always have to go back and basically include that in to the ETH product but

372
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:23,580
But it was basically, you know, that marginal effort wasn't delivering on the volume side

373
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:24,380
or on the business side.

374
00:22:24,660 --> 00:22:28,200
And another funny point is we used to do these things.

375
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,400
I think we still do them every Friday.

376
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,700
We put a feature Friday.

377
00:22:30,820 --> 00:22:32,300
So we say, what do you want to see you let in build?

378
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,720
And the funny thing is the most common request of what they want to see us build is to get

379
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:37,100
rid of ETH.

380
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:39,100
That's so good.

381
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,320
And that happened time after time after time.

382
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,000
So we listened to our clients and we made the change.

383
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,460
We got rid of ETH because again, the other additional consideration is that

384
00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:58,720
ETH has a native programmability aspect to it where people can easily go and stake it somewhere

385
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:13,633
and pledge it somewhere on some DeFi contract to get a loan Many times with no KYC Now there don get me wrong there many many risks that we can get into by doing that But the point is it doesn have that friction

386
00:23:13,633 --> 00:23:17,412
that Bitcoin has when you want to access a loan. Even if you wanted to use DeFi with Bitcoin,

387
00:23:17,493 --> 00:23:22,133
you have to wrap it. So you're taking wrapping risk plus DeFi risk plus, plus, plus. And so

388
00:23:22,133 --> 00:23:27,513
with Bitcoin, and also Bitcoin has a pretty clear regulatory posture. It's not trying to be

389
00:23:27,513 --> 00:23:34,313
a place where people can make complex financial transactions. It's just a settlement layer to

390
00:23:34,313 --> 00:23:40,953
move value around the world. So for those reasons, we wanted to, again, focus on Bitcoin back loans.

391
00:23:40,953 --> 00:23:46,072
And that was the sort of overarching thinking on the decision to get rid of these.

392
00:23:46,072 --> 00:23:51,832
Yeah, it makes total sense. And I truly think these are really important products. It's a product

393
00:23:51,832 --> 00:23:58,072
that I use. And now that you guys are a sponsor of the show, I think what quite a cool thing to do

394
00:23:58,072 --> 00:24:01,352
would be to kind of lay out who should be using this, how they should be using it and what the

395
00:24:01,352 --> 00:24:04,793
risks are. Because these things aren't without risk. And like there's going to be people that

396
00:24:04,793 --> 00:24:09,832
use them in a dumb way and end up fucking things up. So let's go through it kind of from the start.

397
00:24:10,953 --> 00:24:13,832
How do you look at these loans and how do you think people should be approaching them?

398
00:24:13,832 --> 00:24:22,152
them? Just your average Bitcoiner? Yeah. So I look at these loans as a way to live on a Bitcoin

399
00:24:22,152 --> 00:24:29,813
standard, but still be able to take some of that digital wealth and port it into your real life

400
00:24:29,813 --> 00:24:35,912
experience. So I'll give you examples. I have clients that have been buying Bitcoin since

401
00:24:35,912 --> 00:24:43,432
2015, 2014, sometimes earlier. And that stack went from 10K to 100K to now a million bucks,

402
00:24:43,432 --> 00:24:44,793
to a couple million bucks, right?

403
00:24:46,013 --> 00:24:49,513
They are now entering their late 30s, early 40s.

404
00:24:49,773 --> 00:24:50,753
A lot of them are married.

405
00:24:51,013 --> 00:24:53,373
A lot of them have growing families with two kids.

406
00:24:53,652 --> 00:24:56,053
And now they've come into some digital wealth, right?

407
00:24:56,893 --> 00:24:58,813
Then the conversation happens with your wife and says,

408
00:24:58,893 --> 00:24:59,993
hey, I want to buy a bigger home.

409
00:25:00,493 --> 00:25:01,932
You know, we want the extra space.

410
00:25:02,592 --> 00:25:04,672
Can we sell some of that Bitcoin, right?

411
00:25:04,773 --> 00:25:06,152
That we've worked so hard to get.

412
00:25:06,352 --> 00:25:08,332
And the husband basically says, oh, baby,

413
00:25:08,453 --> 00:25:09,932
but it's what got us here.

414
00:25:10,053 --> 00:25:11,513
That's how we built this million dollars.

415
00:25:11,592 --> 00:25:12,693
That's what's changed our stars.

416
00:25:12,693 --> 00:25:18,373
you know, I don't want to part with it. And that starts this exploration to see, can I have my cake

417
00:25:18,373 --> 00:25:24,393
and eat it too? Can I keep my Bitcoin and buy the house? Can I find some structure or a solution

418
00:25:24,393 --> 00:25:29,993
for this, right? And eventually they find loans, Bitcoin back loans. The genesis of this product

419
00:25:29,993 --> 00:25:34,493
was solving our own problem. And I'll tell you where I was coming from. I was mining Bitcoin in

420
00:25:34,493 --> 00:25:39,873
Venezuela with my family. Then every time we had to upgrade equipment, I had to send my Bitcoin to

421
00:25:39,873 --> 00:25:43,072
Bitmain or, you know, payment to Bitmain.

422
00:25:43,473 --> 00:25:47,112
It took a year to get the machines and I lost all the upside on the Bitcoin.

423
00:25:47,653 --> 00:25:48,572
That happened to me once.

424
00:25:49,393 --> 00:25:50,953
Oh man, that happened to me twice.

425
00:25:51,412 --> 00:25:54,273
By the third time I said, I never want this to happen to me again.

426
00:25:54,993 --> 00:26:01,633
So it was built for businesses, people, anyone that's living on a Bitcoin standard where you

427
00:26:01,633 --> 00:26:05,813
have Bitcoin income and you live in a fiat world and you don't want to spend.

428
00:26:05,813 --> 00:26:11,813
Because also, our tax system is not built for using Bitcoin as money.

429
00:26:12,053 --> 00:26:16,453
Our tax system is built to use Bitcoin as an asset and then draw the money from it.

430
00:26:17,373 --> 00:26:23,393
And a lot of those reasons was or were there really we came at it from we want to solve our own problem.

431
00:26:23,713 --> 00:26:24,873
So who would use it?

432
00:26:25,852 --> 00:26:29,313
I'm not suggesting anyone go take a loan if they have no need for a loan.

433
00:26:29,313 --> 00:26:35,233
If you have fiat cash flows from your life and you're putting away a little bit of Bitcoin every month and you don't really need a loan,

434
00:26:35,813 --> 00:26:39,133
I'm not encouraging you to go take one for speculative purposes, right?

435
00:26:39,832 --> 00:26:44,572
But if you're a person that wants to buy a new house, wants to start a business, you know, you've built some Bitcoin.

436
00:26:44,993 --> 00:26:52,072
Usually you build your Bitcoin stack as a way of, it's like your rocket ship to take you from the life you have to the life you want.

437
00:26:52,153 --> 00:26:52,293
Yeah.

438
00:26:52,393 --> 00:26:52,592
Right.

439
00:26:52,633 --> 00:26:57,473
And eventually the rocket gets filled up with fuel and you're like, okay, well, the rocket's here.

440
00:26:57,912 --> 00:27:04,473
And then you're saying to yourself, well, now if I blow all the fuel in the rocket, then, you know, I might not land where I want it.

441
00:27:04,473 --> 00:27:05,633
I might have to get another rocket.

442
00:27:05,832 --> 00:27:07,033
And so I don't want to let go of it.

443
00:27:07,072 --> 00:27:07,553
So you try to.

444
00:27:07,713 --> 00:27:09,773
And the rockets constantly get harder and harder to fill up.

445
00:27:10,033 --> 00:27:10,513
Correct.

446
00:27:10,633 --> 00:27:10,953
Correct.

447
00:27:11,493 --> 00:27:16,973
And so the idea here is that if you have some Bitcoin, if you're in a Bitcoin standard and

448
00:27:16,973 --> 00:27:22,153
you come across an investment opportunity, a way of upgrade your life experience by way

449
00:27:22,153 --> 00:27:27,553
of a house, by way of a car, by way of school, a trip, whatever it is that you want to do,

450
00:27:28,053 --> 00:27:33,092
you can do so now without having to sell your Bitcoin and in a potentially much more efficient

451
00:27:33,092 --> 00:27:34,373
tax structure.

452
00:27:34,473 --> 00:27:40,612
which is a loan versus selling. So who should use this? If you're in a Bitcoin standard,

453
00:27:40,753 --> 00:27:46,213
if you have Bitcoin, life happens. I've had people use these loans to pay for emergency surgery.

454
00:27:46,773 --> 00:27:51,072
I've had people use these loans to buy property. A lot of people use these loans to start businesses.

455
00:27:51,932 --> 00:27:57,473
Many people use these loans to buy more Bitcoin or to buy things like MSDY or do some type of

456
00:27:57,473 --> 00:28:01,352
arbitrage between two instruments that are Bitcoin denominated or Bitcoin related.

457
00:28:01,352 --> 00:28:06,352
And so it really varies how people use the product.

458
00:28:06,352 --> 00:28:10,352
What I would suggest, of course, as always is,

459
00:28:10,352 --> 00:28:12,352
and this goes back to the risks of these products,

460
00:28:12,352 --> 00:28:15,352
is you never want to put your full stack on a product like this.

461
00:28:15,352 --> 00:28:16,352
Exactly.

462
00:28:16,352 --> 00:28:21,352
Because all of those different things that you can spend the money on once you borrow against your Bitcoin

463
00:28:21,352 --> 00:28:22,352
all carry different amounts of risk.

464
00:28:22,352 --> 00:28:26,352
And so if you're going to go and do it to speculate on some Bitcoin treasury company,

465
00:28:26,352 --> 00:28:28,352
that's probably higher risk.

466
00:28:28,352 --> 00:28:32,753
To buy more Bitcoin, less risk than that, but maybe higher risk than buying a home or whatever.

467
00:28:34,313 --> 00:28:35,493
Just in terms of the volatility.

468
00:28:35,713 --> 00:28:39,753
So if you're talking to someone who's trying to figure out what the right loan is for them,

469
00:28:39,912 --> 00:28:43,953
what kind of percentage of your stack do you tend to think is reasonable?

470
00:28:44,533 --> 00:28:50,092
So the first thing that I suggest to somebody is before they decide on the stack or anything like that,

471
00:28:50,092 --> 00:28:51,412
is to run a test loan.

472
00:28:51,753 --> 00:28:53,233
Test loans start at $500.

473
00:28:53,233 --> 00:28:58,513
bucks. You can use a thousand dollars to Bitcoin, test the pipes, understand how long it takes,

474
00:28:59,633 --> 00:29:02,273
what the process looks like, what the repayments are like, what the flows are like.

475
00:29:03,072 --> 00:29:06,273
Once you're there and you're comfortable, you can decide on how much of your stack to put.

476
00:29:06,832 --> 00:29:10,912
Generally, I would say to people, again, it depends on your situation,

477
00:29:11,633 --> 00:29:16,993
not financial advice and all this stuff. Typically, I would say to people between 30 to 50% of the stack

478
00:29:16,993 --> 00:29:24,273
is okay. But there's people that might want to go a little higher than that. There's people

479
00:29:24,273 --> 00:29:29,473
that might want to go a little lower than that. And a lot of that comes back down to the risks.

480
00:29:29,912 --> 00:29:35,793
So what are the risks? I think the two major risks are number one, counterparty risk. So

481
00:29:35,793 --> 00:29:41,112
something happens to your counterparty. And number two, liquidation risk. Market volatility can result

482
00:29:41,112 --> 00:29:46,313
in your Bitcoin having to get sold. So there's two primary risks, and then there's ways to

483
00:29:46,313 --> 00:29:53,412
optimize around either one of those. For example, if you are a person that is looking to minimize

484
00:29:53,412 --> 00:29:58,412
counterparty risk, right? You want to minimize how much assets you have on a third party.

485
00:29:58,793 --> 00:30:03,112
So you're going to be looking at a loan that wants to start at a potentially higher LTV.

486
00:30:03,672 --> 00:30:08,332
So you're going to basically max out the LTV of dollars relative to the Bitcoin you're putting in

487
00:30:08,332 --> 00:30:14,713
trust or you're putting as collateral. And you're constantly going to be trying to redeem excess

488
00:30:14,713 --> 00:30:18,693
collateral as the loan becomes over collateralized. So you're going to try to always keep the bare

489
00:30:18,693 --> 00:30:25,852
minimum assets on the platform. The counter to doing that is that by only having always the

490
00:30:25,852 --> 00:30:31,793
minimum required amount in the event of market volatility, you may have to react fast. And so

491
00:30:31,793 --> 00:30:36,713
if that's you and you're okay with reacting fast, that's a way of structuring yourself.

492
00:30:37,153 --> 00:30:42,813
But the opposite of that is, on the other side of that, is I'm okay with the platform. I don't

493
00:30:42,813 --> 00:30:44,213
necessarily think that's the biggest risk.

494
00:30:44,213 --> 00:30:46,453
I think my biggest risk is a sudden market move.

495
00:30:46,453 --> 00:30:50,293
So people that believe that or wanna optimize for that,

496
00:30:50,293 --> 00:30:53,813
a lot of them over collateralize their loans proactively.

497
00:30:53,813 --> 00:30:56,893
So my starting LTV is 50%,

498
00:30:56,893 --> 00:30:59,533
but we don't stop you from sending more

499
00:30:59,533 --> 00:31:00,912
if you wanna be more comfortable.

500
00:31:00,912 --> 00:31:03,453
I have guys that have single digit LTVs

501
00:31:03,453 --> 00:31:05,153
because they just don't wanna ever think

502
00:31:05,153 --> 00:31:06,813
about a liquidation, right?

503
00:31:06,813 --> 00:31:08,493
And so that happens,

504
00:31:08,493 --> 00:31:10,973
but those guys are very comfortable with us

505
00:31:10,973 --> 00:31:12,332
as a platform and how we operate.

506
00:31:12,332 --> 00:31:16,633
So to them, the major risk is a sudden market move.

507
00:31:16,633 --> 00:31:19,653
To others, the major risk is counterparty risk.

508
00:31:19,653 --> 00:31:20,633
So they try to minimize that,

509
00:31:20,633 --> 00:31:22,873
but there's trade-offs for each one,

510
00:31:22,873 --> 00:31:24,533
depending on what you're trying to optimize.

511
00:31:24,533 --> 00:31:26,572
And just to clarify for any listening,

512
00:31:26,572 --> 00:31:27,993
the reason you say they have to move faster

513
00:31:27,993 --> 00:31:29,953
is because they obviously have to then add extra collateral

514
00:31:29,953 --> 00:31:30,953
to that loan product.

515
00:31:30,953 --> 00:31:31,793
Correct.

516
00:31:31,793 --> 00:31:36,793
And it's not to scare people away

517
00:31:37,313 --> 00:31:39,553
from using a product like this.

518
00:31:39,553 --> 00:31:41,293
To give you some data around this,

519
00:31:41,293 --> 00:31:44,592
This year, we've had Bitcoin go to 110, then down to 70.

520
00:31:44,913 --> 00:31:48,313
That's about 35% top to bottom move.

521
00:31:48,932 --> 00:31:52,273
Mathematically, that would have impacted a lot, no,

522
00:31:52,352 --> 00:31:53,352
decent amount of our clients.

523
00:31:54,092 --> 00:31:58,513
What we saw was actually less than 50 basis points.

524
00:31:58,513 --> 00:32:02,553
So less than half of 1% of our loan book was impacted by liquidations.

525
00:32:02,612 --> 00:32:03,153
Wow, that's cool.

526
00:32:03,572 --> 00:32:04,953
On a 35% down move.

527
00:32:04,953 --> 00:32:12,873
And I think that's a testament to how much smarter our clients are getting.

528
00:32:13,153 --> 00:32:15,293
People understand this product a lot better now.

529
00:32:15,513 --> 00:32:18,773
They know where the goalposts are, right?

530
00:32:18,913 --> 00:32:25,013
And so they are now planning, okay, I'm going to be, you know, if this happens, then I'm sending this.

531
00:32:25,133 --> 00:32:26,513
They have the safe listed addresses.

532
00:32:26,893 --> 00:32:33,773
A lot of them have turned on auto top up, which is another feature we've created to protect against sudden down moves.

533
00:32:33,773 --> 00:32:37,013
which is if you don't want to have the Bitcoin be part of your loan right away,

534
00:32:37,352 --> 00:32:40,213
you can put it in your transaction account, which just sits in cold storage,

535
00:32:40,693 --> 00:32:42,053
and you turn on this thing called AutoTopUp.

536
00:32:42,492 --> 00:32:46,492
And all AutoTopUp does is if the market moves and your loan needs more Bitcoin,

537
00:32:46,752 --> 00:32:49,693
it sweeps it from the transaction account into the loan automatically

538
00:32:49,693 --> 00:32:50,973
without you having to do anything.

539
00:32:51,633 --> 00:32:55,193
And we built this because a lot of times we had loans and clients going on,

540
00:32:55,713 --> 00:33:00,413
you know, one-month hiking trips, or I'm going to go on a sailing adventure for a month.

541
00:33:00,413 --> 00:33:03,633
I'm not bringing my ledger or I'm not bringing my cold device.

542
00:33:03,773 --> 00:33:07,133
And so they wanted to have an option to respond.

543
00:33:07,393 --> 00:33:08,393
So we built that.

544
00:33:09,572 --> 00:33:10,832
Just like out of interest,

545
00:33:10,973 --> 00:33:13,852
when say we have like a super volatile down move,

546
00:33:14,092 --> 00:33:18,352
what happens if your loan is getting close to being liquidated?

547
00:33:18,852 --> 00:33:19,693
Yes, great question.

548
00:33:19,813 --> 00:33:21,553
So loans start at 50% loan to value.

549
00:33:21,852 --> 00:33:24,293
As the price drops, that LTV starts rising.

550
00:33:24,813 --> 00:33:28,653
So at 70%, our system starts sending you notifications to say,

551
00:33:28,793 --> 00:33:30,592
hey, Danny, you need to send more Bitcoin to your loan.

552
00:33:30,592 --> 00:33:37,673
those notifications continue all the way up to 80 percent if and when the loan gets to 80 percent

553
00:33:37,673 --> 00:33:42,733
the system automatically sells however much bitcoin it needs to repay the loan and returns

554
00:33:42,733 --> 00:33:48,473
the difference to the client now in my experience or you know in the in the times that we've been

555
00:33:48,473 --> 00:33:54,213
in business the only um there's been like i would i would argue there's been one or two times where

556
00:33:54,213 --> 00:34:00,092
that move from 70 to 80 happens in a matter of hours and that was really the one that comes to

557
00:34:00,092 --> 00:34:09,052
was COVID. COVID was a 50% drawdown in 24 hours, which is again why there's a reason letting this

558
00:34:09,052 --> 00:34:12,813
build the way it's built. And there's a reason our margin call system is designed the way it's

559
00:34:12,813 --> 00:34:18,332
designed. It's really for the benefit of everybody because it's how we believe the operation can

560
00:34:18,332 --> 00:34:26,012
become anti-fragile. You can't in a market like Bitcoin tell somebody you have this much time,

561
00:34:26,012 --> 00:34:29,552
Because we know now how much Bitcoin can move in this much time.

562
00:34:30,073 --> 00:34:34,153
So at Lennon, it's not a time-based requirement.

563
00:34:34,313 --> 00:34:35,613
It's a price-based requirement.

564
00:34:36,212 --> 00:34:38,953
Also, we don't ask you, when you get these notifications,

565
00:34:39,492 --> 00:34:42,712
we don't ask you to bring it all the way back to 50 or to 40

566
00:34:42,712 --> 00:34:44,552
or to any particular amount.

567
00:34:44,873 --> 00:34:47,573
All we ask you to do is don't let it get to 80.

568
00:34:47,573 --> 00:34:49,732
At 80, we don't have a choice.

569
00:34:50,192 --> 00:34:51,453
So just don't let it get to 80.

570
00:34:51,453 --> 00:34:59,473
And so that's sort of how, that's the process that happens as Bitcoin market drops.

571
00:34:59,593 --> 00:35:09,793
Now, importantly, the same way we ask you for more Bitcoin on the price going down, if Bitcoin recovers and goes in your direction, you can take excess Bitcoin off the loan.

572
00:35:10,032 --> 00:35:12,933
And that's something that we do that I don't believe many others do.

573
00:35:13,313 --> 00:35:17,933
And people don't necessarily think about this, but that is a huge benefit that Ledin has.

574
00:35:17,933 --> 00:35:24,593
in 2024 alone over a thousand bitcoins were recalled from our clients from excess loan

575
00:35:24,593 --> 00:35:29,133
collateral to take back to self-custody so that makes us super proud and it's not it's something

576
00:35:29,133 --> 00:35:33,492
that's super easy you just go on the loan and you'll see the button that lights up when when

577
00:35:33,492 --> 00:35:37,873
it's eligible it just says redeem excess collateral and you just click it and it goes to your

578
00:35:37,873 --> 00:35:41,973
transaction account and from there you can do whatever you want with it um but that's also to

579
00:35:41,973 --> 00:35:47,313
to let no to signal to people we don't want any more your bitcoin than we need right like when

580
00:35:47,313 --> 00:35:48,373
we're asking you to top it up.

581
00:35:48,413 --> 00:35:49,793
It's just because we want to protect the loan.

582
00:35:50,073 --> 00:35:51,732
If it recovers and when it recovers,

583
00:35:51,773 --> 00:35:52,613
that's your Bitcoin still.

584
00:35:52,913 --> 00:35:54,992
So that's how that process works.

585
00:35:55,113 --> 00:35:56,373
And maybe we should talk a little bit

586
00:35:56,373 --> 00:35:57,953
about how the repayments work on Ledin.

587
00:35:58,133 --> 00:35:58,373
Sure.

588
00:35:58,712 --> 00:36:00,653
So maybe explain like the different options

589
00:36:00,653 --> 00:36:01,173
that people have.

590
00:36:01,793 --> 00:36:02,073
Yes.

591
00:36:02,232 --> 00:36:03,212
So at Ledin,

592
00:36:03,252 --> 00:36:05,793
you can always make a repayment partial or full

593
00:36:05,793 --> 00:36:08,653
at any time with no penalties, right?

594
00:36:09,212 --> 00:36:11,813
There's three primary ways of repaying your loan.

595
00:36:11,813 --> 00:36:14,893
You can repay it with a wire transfer or cash.

596
00:36:14,893 --> 00:36:22,113
you can repay it with stable coins or you can use bitcoin uh collateral you can sell part of

597
00:36:22,113 --> 00:36:26,953
the bitcoin collateral to repay the loan importantly that option to repay with bitcoin

598
00:36:26,953 --> 00:36:33,133
is available it's not available in every market it's available in most markets but not every

599
00:36:33,133 --> 00:36:36,953
market it's just a regulatory thing it's a regulatory thing yeah yeah but the primary

600
00:36:36,953 --> 00:36:42,973
ways through which people repay the loans most often uh is cash and bitcoin right um now stable

601
00:36:42,973 --> 00:36:45,252
I use stable coins in cash sort of inter-exchange.

602
00:36:45,252 --> 00:36:46,252
Yeah.

603
00:36:46,252 --> 00:36:52,453
But partial repayments are very easy to do directly on the platform, especially with stable coins.

604
00:36:52,453 --> 00:36:55,852
Because with stable coins, they're in your transaction account, we deduct them, we apply

605
00:36:55,852 --> 00:36:57,093
it to the loan right away.

606
00:36:57,093 --> 00:37:00,473
With wires, you have to notify us that you've sent the wire, we have to wait till the wire

607
00:37:00,473 --> 00:37:01,473
arrives.

608
00:37:01,473 --> 00:37:04,212
Once it arrives, it gets booked, and then it flows to your loan numbers.

609
00:37:04,212 --> 00:37:10,413
So stable coins are really becoming, I would say, a material rail for disbursements and

610
00:37:10,413 --> 00:37:12,613
repayments.

611
00:37:12,613 --> 00:37:16,252
That said, the most popular way to repay the loans is through Bitcoin.

612
00:37:16,773 --> 00:37:19,893
And people use that when Bitcoin rips.

613
00:37:20,512 --> 00:37:22,512
People take profits, right?

614
00:37:22,512 --> 00:37:24,453
Like a lot of our guys took loans when Bitcoin was at 50.

615
00:37:24,953 --> 00:37:26,133
They see Bitcoin at 120.

616
00:37:26,552 --> 00:37:30,613
They have to sell a fraction of what they put initially to repay it, and they just want to be done.

617
00:37:31,113 --> 00:37:34,212
And we see people close loans when market goes higher, right?

618
00:37:34,232 --> 00:37:36,232
And we also see people open them when markets go lower.

619
00:37:36,673 --> 00:37:40,453
So those are the three ways that most people repay.

620
00:37:40,773 --> 00:37:41,593
Yeah, that makes sense.

621
00:37:41,593 --> 00:37:44,613
And then in terms of rates, like what do you see happening with rates in this market?

622
00:37:44,732 --> 00:37:48,973
Because like historically, rates against Bitcoin have been relatively high.

623
00:37:49,093 --> 00:37:53,313
There's obviously kind of a flaw set by the quote unquote risk-free rate.

624
00:37:53,873 --> 00:37:55,832
Like how low do you think they can drop?

625
00:37:57,313 --> 00:37:57,593
So.

626
00:37:58,052 --> 00:37:59,953
And maybe it's worth also saying what they're at at the moment.

627
00:38:00,153 --> 00:38:00,373
Yeah.

628
00:38:00,473 --> 00:38:05,252
So our rates right now are, by the time this show goes out, it'll be 12.4 for custody loans,

629
00:38:05,373 --> 00:38:06,293
which we're very happy.

630
00:38:06,692 --> 00:38:10,732
We have the most competitive rate in the market for no monthly interest payment loans,

631
00:38:10,732 --> 00:38:12,332
which by the way is the only type of loans we do,

632
00:38:12,433 --> 00:38:14,813
we don't even give you the option to make,

633
00:38:14,953 --> 00:38:15,793
and you can make them,

634
00:38:16,192 --> 00:38:18,552
but there's no contract like a letter

635
00:38:18,552 --> 00:38:19,933
that forces you to do them

636
00:38:19,933 --> 00:38:21,192
and that punishes you if you don't.

637
00:38:21,293 --> 00:38:22,413
You can make them voluntarily.

638
00:38:22,752 --> 00:38:24,093
No one's going to stop you from doing that.

639
00:38:24,373 --> 00:38:26,732
But you're coming to us because you want cash

640
00:38:26,732 --> 00:38:27,473
and not sell your Bitcoin.

641
00:38:27,573 --> 00:38:30,052
The worst thing we can do is ask you for cash

642
00:38:30,052 --> 00:38:31,273
to make those payments.

643
00:38:31,433 --> 00:38:32,913
Now, some companies do this

644
00:38:32,913 --> 00:38:35,273
because it allows them to show a much lower APR

645
00:38:35,273 --> 00:38:37,653
because you don't have to include the cost

646
00:38:37,653 --> 00:38:39,212
of financing those monthly interest payments

647
00:38:39,212 --> 00:38:40,192
into the loan.

648
00:38:40,192 --> 00:38:45,953
So they try to like, you know, tuck the fee over here or give you this option over there to make it look like it's cheaper than Letton.

649
00:38:46,093 --> 00:38:48,913
But in fact, when you add all the bells and whistles, it actually works out.

650
00:38:49,692 --> 00:38:53,692
99% of the time, Letton is the best cost for that type of product.

651
00:38:54,173 --> 00:38:58,232
So that's something that's for anyone looking, you know, run the numbers, right?

652
00:38:58,293 --> 00:39:05,573
Like if you run the numbers, most often you wound up with Letton or at least you have to get asked questions and read the fine print.

653
00:39:05,712 --> 00:39:07,933
It's very important for you to read the fine print.

654
00:39:07,933 --> 00:39:12,512
So where do these rates, where can they go?

655
00:39:13,032 --> 00:39:27,473
I think they're higher than I would like them to be right now, because I think there's an information gap between how lending against Bitcoin is perceived by big institutions and how lending against Bitcoin is perceived by the Bitcoiners, right?

656
00:39:27,532 --> 00:39:29,732
Bitcoiners are saying it's the world's best collateral.

657
00:39:30,113 --> 00:39:31,352
You know, you ever collateralize.

658
00:39:31,393 --> 00:39:32,352
It can be sold at any time.

659
00:39:32,453 --> 00:39:33,113
Like, we get it.

660
00:39:33,252 --> 00:39:33,373
Yeah.

661
00:39:33,492 --> 00:39:34,433
That's why we built that.

662
00:39:34,992 --> 00:39:36,073
It's a great product.

663
00:39:36,073 --> 00:39:42,232
But now that said, you have to get the banks equally comfortable with that.

664
00:39:42,473 --> 00:39:45,593
And they haven't been doing this for seven years, right?

665
00:39:45,613 --> 00:39:46,873
They're leaning on us.

666
00:39:46,873 --> 00:39:49,973
We talk to a lot of these banks and we actually borrow from banks.

667
00:39:50,552 --> 00:39:54,913
And so when they're talking to us and we tell them, they ask, what's your default rate?

668
00:39:55,133 --> 00:39:55,832
And we're like, zero.

669
00:39:56,352 --> 00:39:57,393
And they're like, what?

670
00:39:58,492 --> 00:39:59,712
Zero percent default rate?

671
00:39:59,732 --> 00:40:01,552
You've never had somebody not pay a Bitcoin back loan?

672
00:40:01,752 --> 00:40:04,373
No, we've never had someone not pay a Bitcoin back loan.

673
00:40:04,373 --> 00:40:09,732
Like the liquidation engine has worked when it has had to, and everyone else has paid the loans because they want their bank went back.

674
00:40:10,232 --> 00:40:11,032
This is natural.

675
00:40:11,433 --> 00:40:17,293
So to them, they're very interested, and they're trying to price the risk around this.

676
00:40:17,593 --> 00:40:19,152
And I'll give you another interesting analogy.

677
00:40:19,313 --> 00:40:23,113
So my business partner, Adam, co-founder of Leran, he's the CEO, I'm chief sales officer.

678
00:40:23,813 --> 00:40:26,692
He comes from renewable energy financing.

679
00:40:27,013 --> 00:40:32,172
So he was financing big solar projects when they were basically pretty new.

680
00:40:32,172 --> 00:40:38,332
And some of the questions that these big pensions are asking were, how do we know the solar panel is going to last 10 years?

681
00:40:38,793 --> 00:40:40,773
How do we know it's going to generate this much energy?

682
00:40:40,933 --> 00:40:42,513
How do we know these pieces aren't going to break?

683
00:40:42,692 --> 00:40:45,493
Because they're just getting, they don't know the flow.

684
00:40:45,752 --> 00:40:46,813
They haven't been around.

685
00:40:46,873 --> 00:40:49,313
They haven't seen how these things are built, what they do in the wild.

686
00:40:49,873 --> 00:40:56,192
And so there's always this learning curve when you're trying to bring capital in to price a particular risk.

687
00:40:56,192 --> 00:40:57,273
Something that's relatively new.

688
00:40:57,413 --> 00:40:57,672
Correct.

689
00:40:58,273 --> 00:41:00,732
So I see banks coming in.

690
00:41:01,093 --> 00:41:02,152
They are already here.

691
00:41:02,172 --> 00:41:08,413
like they're not coming they're here um banks are slow because every time they want to launch a new

692
00:41:08,413 --> 00:41:13,413
product it's just a committee after committee after committee and red tape but they're working

693
00:41:13,413 --> 00:41:18,893
on it and i think they're going to get to a point where they're going to understand that lending

694
00:41:18,893 --> 00:41:22,913
against bitcoin is better than lending against real estate it's better than lending against

695
00:41:22,913 --> 00:41:29,052
stocks because it just is like we know it is it is yeah and so it's really just a matter of time

696
00:41:29,052 --> 00:41:34,552
right and so i do think that these things can can tighten the spread against fed funds so like i

697
00:41:34,552 --> 00:41:40,712
what i look at is all interest rate markets dance to the beat of the fed funds right yeah right so

698
00:41:40,712 --> 00:41:45,513
there's always fed funds rate a structure of an interest rate is the fed funds rate plus premium

699
00:41:45,513 --> 00:41:50,973
right or the premium for that particular asset so for us for leaden you're sitting at around

700
00:41:50,973 --> 00:41:57,873
you know 600 basis points over fed funds right but interestingly the spread over fed funds today

701
00:41:57,873 --> 00:41:58,933
is around 600, right?

702
00:41:58,993 --> 00:41:59,893
When we started lending,

703
00:42:00,852 --> 00:42:01,913
we started lending in 2018.

704
00:42:02,813 --> 00:42:03,532
Rates back then,

705
00:42:03,573 --> 00:42:04,433
I believe were in like

706
00:42:04,433 --> 00:42:06,073
the 2% range.

707
00:42:06,953 --> 00:42:08,273
Our rates when we came out,

708
00:42:08,332 --> 00:42:09,013
I remember still,

709
00:42:09,073 --> 00:42:10,032
was 16%.

710
00:42:10,032 --> 00:42:12,252
So we had a 1,400

711
00:42:12,252 --> 00:42:15,013
base point spread,

712
00:42:15,352 --> 00:42:17,293
basically 14% spread

713
00:42:17,293 --> 00:42:18,573
over Fed funds

714
00:42:18,573 --> 00:42:19,913
because that was what

715
00:42:19,913 --> 00:42:22,172
our lenders demanded from us

716
00:42:22,172 --> 00:42:23,672
to fund those types of loans.

717
00:42:24,393 --> 00:42:26,252
Today, that spread is down

718
00:42:26,252 --> 00:42:27,893
to 600 basis points.

719
00:42:27,913 --> 00:42:29,252
So it's been cut by more than half.

720
00:42:29,313 --> 00:42:29,913
More than half.

721
00:42:29,993 --> 00:42:31,813
So I expect the next two years,

722
00:42:31,893 --> 00:42:32,953
that cuts by half again.

723
00:42:33,953 --> 00:42:35,953
And where does it land?

724
00:42:37,113 --> 00:42:38,252
You know, there's people...

725
00:42:39,052 --> 00:42:40,493
If we assume that we continue living

726
00:42:40,493 --> 00:42:42,773
in this duality of fiat and Bitcoin,

727
00:42:43,052 --> 00:42:44,433
I don't think Fed funds goes away

728
00:42:44,433 --> 00:42:46,113
as a benchmark to price rates.

729
00:42:46,212 --> 00:42:47,513
I think that survives

730
00:42:47,513 --> 00:42:49,172
for probably another decade or so.

731
00:42:49,593 --> 00:42:50,532
And so we're always going to be looking

732
00:42:50,532 --> 00:42:51,373
at Fed funds plus.

733
00:42:51,973 --> 00:42:54,013
Where that sits in the plus,

734
00:42:54,293 --> 00:42:55,672
you know, I would say anywhere between

735
00:42:55,672 --> 00:42:58,953
100 basis points to 300 basis points,

736
00:42:59,013 --> 00:43:00,212
that's probably where it lands.

737
00:43:00,373 --> 00:43:02,032
I do wonder if it's almost like

738
00:43:02,032 --> 00:43:03,773
it needs to go through another bear market

739
00:43:03,773 --> 00:43:06,913
to prove that the Celsius, BlockFi, FTX thing

740
00:43:06,913 --> 00:43:08,373
was a black swan event,

741
00:43:08,433 --> 00:43:09,813
not what happened in a bear market.

742
00:43:10,332 --> 00:43:12,052
It's a really good point you make.

743
00:43:12,613 --> 00:43:16,532
And when you are going through a bear market

744
00:43:16,532 --> 00:43:17,852
and you're just an observer,

745
00:43:18,532 --> 00:43:19,672
you have many questions,

746
00:43:20,133 --> 00:43:21,573
because all you can make is assumptions.

747
00:43:21,813 --> 00:43:23,613
You don't know what was happening behind the scenes.

748
00:43:24,093 --> 00:43:25,332
But when you go through a bear market

749
00:43:25,332 --> 00:43:30,532
as an operator, what we saw, in fact, was the opposite.

750
00:43:30,532 --> 00:43:35,093
For us, you had a collapse in the asset prices.

751
00:43:35,093 --> 00:43:38,133
Ledin had zero defaults.

752
00:43:38,133 --> 00:43:41,773
The collateral did what the collateral is supposed to do.

753
00:43:41,773 --> 00:43:47,453
So for me, for us, it actually reinforced our view that Bitcoin is the future of asset-backed

754
00:43:47,453 --> 00:43:48,453
lending.

755
00:43:48,453 --> 00:43:52,613
But for others that don't have the nuance and the vantage point that we have, it can

756
00:43:52,613 --> 00:43:56,633
can be perceived as, no, you don't lend against this thing.

757
00:43:56,633 --> 00:43:57,973
One of the most challenging things

758
00:43:57,973 --> 00:44:00,752
about rebuilding trust in lending industry

759
00:44:00,752 --> 00:44:04,073
was the fact that there were so few survivors,

760
00:44:04,073 --> 00:44:06,613
because it was a really difficult conversation

761
00:44:06,613 --> 00:44:10,133
every time we sat down with whoever,

762
00:44:10,133 --> 00:44:12,613
whether you're a prospective client or someone else,

763
00:44:12,613 --> 00:44:14,652
and they said, what did Lend do differently?

764
00:44:14,652 --> 00:44:16,293
And we're like, not that much.

765
00:44:16,293 --> 00:44:19,212
But they weren't doing what we were doing.

766
00:44:19,212 --> 00:44:20,293
They had no risk management.

767
00:44:20,293 --> 00:44:22,433
We actually were doing what we said we were doing.

768
00:44:22,433 --> 00:44:24,232
They were just saying things that they weren't doing.

769
00:44:24,232 --> 00:44:24,873
Yeah, it was just fraud.

770
00:44:25,013 --> 00:44:25,613
It was fraud.

771
00:44:25,793 --> 00:44:34,633
So when you look at that and you say, you know, we were doing things right, but one, two, three, four, five, six guys weren't.

772
00:44:35,032 --> 00:44:39,852
And so it's really hard to make this narrative that it's not that the apple is bad.

773
00:44:39,852 --> 00:44:42,873
It's like there were six bad apples and the rest were good.

774
00:44:43,192 --> 00:44:46,352
But people say, well, there's got to be something wrong with apples, right?

775
00:44:46,453 --> 00:44:50,433
And so it took years to build back to where we are today.

776
00:44:50,433 --> 00:44:54,332
And was that on both the borrower and the lender side of it?

777
00:44:54,332 --> 00:44:56,332
Or was it particularly on the lending side?

778
00:44:56,332 --> 00:44:58,332
As in the people that are giving you the dollars?

779
00:44:58,332 --> 00:45:05,212
I would say it was more the borrowers because the lenders always understood that we, you

780
00:45:05,212 --> 00:45:07,313
know, they either had the Bitcoin that we would pledge.

781
00:45:07,313 --> 00:45:09,093
It was in their custody.

782
00:45:09,093 --> 00:45:13,993
They never felt at risk per se because they always had the option to liquidate the dollars.

783
00:45:13,993 --> 00:45:14,993
Right.

784
00:45:14,993 --> 00:45:19,313
They might have asked us for a higher interest rate, you know, because they could.

785
00:45:19,313 --> 00:45:21,252
because there was a lot of liquidity that left the system.

786
00:45:21,252 --> 00:45:22,593
So it just got repriced higher.

787
00:45:22,873 --> 00:45:25,433
So they could make better returns at the same risk.

788
00:45:25,552 --> 00:45:27,032
So they did for a while.

789
00:45:27,672 --> 00:45:29,953
So it wasn't necessarily from the lender's perspective

790
00:45:29,953 --> 00:45:30,933
because the lender was secured,

791
00:45:30,933 --> 00:45:32,852
but it was from the borrower's perspective

792
00:45:32,852 --> 00:45:36,192
because they wanted to understand how did Leden survive?

793
00:45:36,293 --> 00:45:38,933
Because don't forget, we were seen as the little guys.

794
00:45:39,113 --> 00:45:39,212
Yeah.

795
00:45:39,513 --> 00:45:46,493
We were seen as the, you know, the smaller lender, right?

796
00:45:46,493 --> 00:45:47,813
The guys that did a Bitcoin only,

797
00:45:47,813 --> 00:45:51,232
the boring Canadians they would call us, right?

798
00:45:51,232 --> 00:45:53,633
We didn't have stadiums or credit cards

799
00:45:53,633 --> 00:45:55,013
or big sponsorships.

800
00:45:56,212 --> 00:46:01,212
So it was always, why did these Wall Street,

801
00:46:03,393 --> 00:46:06,813
where was it, Sequoia-backed firms going under

802
00:46:06,813 --> 00:46:07,652
and you guys didn't?

803
00:46:07,652 --> 00:46:17,425
Well because they were being wildly irresponsible They took a very basic business model and they just put it on steroids and started adding risk to it

804
00:46:17,685 --> 00:46:18,945
And then they blew up.

805
00:46:19,585 --> 00:46:23,025
But collateralized lending has been done for centuries.

806
00:46:23,945 --> 00:46:26,025
Well, it can be done responsibly.

807
00:46:26,525 --> 00:46:29,405
So it wasn't an issue with Bitcoin-backed loans.

808
00:46:29,405 --> 00:46:32,265
It was an issue with poor risk management

809
00:46:32,265 --> 00:46:34,785
and excessive risk-taking and fraud,

810
00:46:34,945 --> 00:46:37,045
straight-up fraud in many cases, lies.

811
00:46:37,665 --> 00:46:45,985
Right. So that that was a challenge to kind of build back out of because it took time.

812
00:46:45,985 --> 00:46:49,265
It took proof of work. It took being in the market. Right.

813
00:46:49,265 --> 00:46:57,465
And now when we're now now the trust has been rebuilt and there's this new sort of convergence around the idea that you don't sell your Bitcoin can be done responsibly.

814
00:46:57,465 --> 00:47:01,265
You can borrow from a company like Ledin. You have groups like Cantor saying they're coming in.

815
00:47:01,265 --> 00:47:07,885
And so it gives people this air of, okay, you know, the kids have left the room.

816
00:47:07,985 --> 00:47:10,365
The adults are now offering loans.

817
00:47:10,725 --> 00:47:14,665
We can, these are responsible people that aren't putting themselves in the position

818
00:47:14,665 --> 00:47:15,585
that the last guys did.

819
00:47:15,685 --> 00:47:17,285
God, why would they ever do that?

820
00:47:17,385 --> 00:47:17,725
Right?

821
00:47:18,145 --> 00:47:25,205
And so people have now, you know, regained trust in this asset or in this product.

822
00:47:25,745 --> 00:47:27,585
And also on the idea that you don't sell your Bitcoin.

823
00:47:27,885 --> 00:47:28,045
Yeah.

824
00:47:28,045 --> 00:47:35,925
And not surprisingly, you're seeing a lot of people jump on to try to offer these lending products now that there's, you know, the product market fit has been clearly validated.

825
00:47:35,925 --> 00:47:40,745
And companies like us have been doing this for seven years, trying to build trust and that this can be done responsibly.

826
00:47:40,825 --> 00:47:42,045
So a lot of people are not trying to enter.

827
00:47:43,325 --> 00:47:53,785
I'm not saying that it's, you know, I'm not trying to say everyone's going to be a bad actor, but I'm starting to see a lot of the things that we saw in the early days, like token launches, lack of proof of reserves.

828
00:47:53,785 --> 00:48:02,885
And so I encourage people to ask the right questions, to demand proof reserves as a basic

829
00:48:02,885 --> 00:48:06,165
standard, and to stay far away from anything with a token.

830
00:48:06,465 --> 00:48:10,325
I mean, we've seen this movie too many times.

831
00:48:10,445 --> 00:48:10,965
A hundred percent.

832
00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:12,345
And so-

833
00:48:12,345 --> 00:48:15,845
It reminds me of a conversation I was having with Alex Leishman from River just while we're

834
00:48:15,845 --> 00:48:16,585
at the conference before.

835
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:20,025
And he was like, we were talking about the important things for him at River and what

836
00:48:20,025 --> 00:48:20,445
they've done.

837
00:48:20,445 --> 00:48:23,625
And he's like, it all just comes down to just don't fuck it up.

838
00:48:23,785 --> 00:48:28,025
Like just the one thing you have to do is make sure customers are secure, safe.

839
00:48:28,145 --> 00:48:28,985
Bitcoin doesn't get lost.

840
00:48:29,085 --> 00:48:29,965
Like these are the things.

841
00:48:30,045 --> 00:48:31,065
And it's like, it's another story.

842
00:48:31,145 --> 00:48:35,585
Like I think in Bitcoin more than almost anything, slow and steady often wins the race.

843
00:48:35,865 --> 00:48:40,705
And rather than just trying to kind of snatch the market when it's not necessarily there,

844
00:48:40,765 --> 00:48:43,785
which I think what kind of BlockFi and Celsius did by just trying to pump their numbers with

845
00:48:43,785 --> 00:48:49,325
everything that happened at 3Rs Capital, lies and fraud, everything mixed in, like they fucked up.

846
00:48:49,325 --> 00:48:51,725
And you just kept going and didn't fuck it up.

847
00:48:51,725 --> 00:48:54,385
I remember now that you say that, a funny story.

848
00:48:54,545 --> 00:48:58,185
So when we were going through the collapse of all these lenders, right?

849
00:48:58,245 --> 00:49:03,765
Like we had people at LetIn, you know, obviously they were being hurt by BlockFi.

850
00:49:03,865 --> 00:49:06,945
They had assets in all these other places that weren't being allowed to withdraw.

851
00:49:07,365 --> 00:49:09,205
And so we had people withdrawing from LetIn.

852
00:49:09,385 --> 00:49:12,365
And when people asked me, at times I remember people would call me and say,

853
00:49:12,405 --> 00:49:15,405
Mao, you know, are you guys okay?

854
00:49:15,925 --> 00:49:17,505
You know, do I have to withdraw my Bitcoin?

855
00:49:17,505 --> 00:49:23,585
my answer was always withdraw your bitcoin and bring it back yeah just do it just just do it

856
00:49:23,585 --> 00:49:27,745
yeah just do it we can do we will process your withdrawal once you're comfortable bring it back

857
00:49:27,745 --> 00:49:32,945
we'll be here we're not going anywhere so just do what makes you feel comfortable yeah and people

858
00:49:32,945 --> 00:49:36,805
was like i appreciate it many of them actually didn't withdraw um a few did just hearing that's

859
00:49:36,805 --> 00:49:42,805
probably enough yeah a few did but the point is when i was going through this i remember you know

860
00:49:42,805 --> 00:49:48,705
everything's on fire. You know, clients are calling me, you know, worried. I'm talking to my parents.

861
00:49:48,905 --> 00:49:55,285
My dad's my mentor and I talk to my dad quite often. And so I called him and I was basically

862
00:49:55,285 --> 00:50:01,505
laying out what was happening. And he goes, so let me get this straight. He goes, the five guys

863
00:50:01,505 --> 00:50:06,385
that were always ahead of you because they were bigger and louder and printing money are dead.

864
00:50:06,825 --> 00:50:12,705
And I'm like, yes. He's like, you're the only one that survived. I'm like, yes. He's like, son,

865
00:50:12,805 --> 00:50:21,485
you're going to go to the top all you gotta do is not fuck this up just don't fuck this up

866
00:50:21,485 --> 00:50:32,165
you you've been given a massive gift right and to your point all we need to do is do one thing

867
00:50:32,165 --> 00:50:38,985
and do it right and not over complicate what it is that we do the more bells and whistles we add

868
00:50:38,985 --> 00:50:44,605
to the product, the hardest for me to explain the risks to you, to an investor, to a regulator,

869
00:50:45,065 --> 00:50:51,185
to whoever you are. So we're making our business deliberately that simple because that simple is

870
00:50:51,185 --> 00:50:58,105
easy to understand and easy to understand things make you feel comfortable, right? Our clients are

871
00:50:58,105 --> 00:51:02,865
brilliant people. The more transparent we are with them on how everything operates and where

872
00:51:02,865 --> 00:51:08,385
we see the risks and the things that we've built to protect against them and tell them,

873
00:51:08,385 --> 00:51:11,945
listen, the risk here with you is liquidation at 80%,

874
00:51:11,945 --> 00:51:13,505
like plan for it.

875
00:51:14,705 --> 00:51:16,825
The more upfront and transparent you can be

876
00:51:16,825 --> 00:51:19,825
with the clients, investors, regulators, everyone,

877
00:51:19,825 --> 00:51:21,105
it's gonna land better.

878
00:51:21,105 --> 00:51:22,425
It's gonna make you move faster.

879
00:51:22,425 --> 00:51:23,505
Yeah.

880
00:51:23,505 --> 00:51:24,345
And the coolest thing is like,

881
00:51:24,345 --> 00:51:27,345
this is a product that rich people have been using forever.

882
00:51:27,345 --> 00:51:29,025
It's just now you can do it with Bitcoin.

883
00:51:29,025 --> 00:51:30,785
And then the coolest thing about that is

884
00:51:30,785 --> 00:51:31,785
there's no credit checks.

885
00:51:31,785 --> 00:51:34,025
There's no, it doesn't matter where you live.

886
00:51:34,025 --> 00:51:36,385
Well, as long as you're operational at jurisdiction,

887
00:51:36,385 --> 00:51:37,385
doesn't matter what color you are,

888
00:51:37,385 --> 00:51:38,405
doesn't matter what gender you are,

889
00:51:38,405 --> 00:51:39,665
doesn't matter what religion you are.

890
00:51:39,665 --> 00:51:42,905
Like this is just a completely agnostic thing.

891
00:51:42,905 --> 00:51:44,345
People talk about financial inclusion

892
00:51:44,345 --> 00:51:46,145
and this is abstract term that Bitcoin,

893
00:51:46,145 --> 00:51:47,605
some people in the Bitcoin circles love,

894
00:51:47,605 --> 00:51:49,065
but most people don't really attach it

895
00:51:49,065 --> 00:51:50,965
to any concrete things.

896
00:51:50,965 --> 00:51:53,345
It's financial inclusion, it's warm, fuzzy feelings,

897
00:51:53,345 --> 00:51:54,845
but you don't really know what it means.

898
00:51:56,065 --> 00:52:01,065
At Latin, it means that Miguel from Lima in Peru

899
00:52:01,605 --> 00:52:06,605
can get a loan at the same rates as Miguel in Lisboa,

900
00:52:06,605 --> 00:52:17,205
In the past, issuing loans was very uneven and unfair because I couldn't underwrite your

901
00:52:17,205 --> 00:52:20,765
assets in Peru the way I could underwrite assets in Portugal versus the US.

902
00:52:20,765 --> 00:52:21,985
It was just very different.

903
00:52:21,985 --> 00:52:26,165
Even gold in a vault in Venezuela, it's very different than gold in a vault in Switzerland.

904
00:52:26,165 --> 00:52:31,685
So there was no real uniform asset that would allow me as a lender to treat you the same.

905
00:52:31,685 --> 00:52:33,105
Bitcoin does.

906
00:52:33,105 --> 00:52:39,905
And one of the things we're very proud of at Leten is we offer the same rates to everyone

907
00:52:39,905 --> 00:52:41,785
we service.

908
00:52:41,785 --> 00:52:47,465
And that goes for loans from $500 to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

909
00:52:47,465 --> 00:52:56,365
And that makes people feel incredibly empowered to be able to say, I can use a product and

910
00:52:56,365 --> 00:53:00,965
I know I'm getting the same rates as someone in the US or as someone in Europe.

911
00:53:00,965 --> 00:53:06,465
Not only that, it's a product that is being used by people like Michael Saylor or it's

912
00:53:06,465 --> 00:53:12,665
being used by very wealthy individuals and these treasury companies, et cetera.

913
00:53:12,665 --> 00:53:17,845
It's the same structure, not the same terms always, but it's the same principle, which

914
00:53:17,845 --> 00:53:21,005
is long, hard, short, weak.

915
00:53:21,005 --> 00:53:24,885
You're long a hard asset, you're short or borrowing a weak asset.

916
00:53:24,885 --> 00:53:26,965
And I think it's no different than a mortgage.

917
00:53:26,965 --> 00:53:29,965
A mortgage is a lever short on the dollar.

918
00:53:29,965 --> 00:53:33,465
And it's made people a lot of money.

919
00:53:33,465 --> 00:53:36,625
So it's just bringing technology, financial technology

920
00:53:36,625 --> 00:53:39,625
that's existed for every other asset into Bitcoin.

921
00:53:39,625 --> 00:53:40,685
It's-

922
00:53:40,685 --> 00:53:42,285
It allows the guy in Bangladesh

923
00:53:42,285 --> 00:53:44,605
to do the Michael Saylor playbook with his own Bitcoin.

924
00:53:44,605 --> 00:53:45,445
Exactly.

925
00:53:45,445 --> 00:53:47,305
And he's not got the capital markets to tap into,

926
00:53:47,305 --> 00:53:48,345
but he has got his Bitcoin.

927
00:53:48,345 --> 00:53:49,185
Exactly.

928
00:53:49,185 --> 00:53:50,545
And obviously, like I mentioned,

929
00:53:50,545 --> 00:53:52,605
like obviously the terms and the scale

930
00:53:52,605 --> 00:53:54,645
that Michael can access is, you know, God bless him.

931
00:53:54,645 --> 00:53:55,965
It's awesome.

932
00:53:55,965 --> 00:53:58,165
But other people have the same need

933
00:53:58,165 --> 00:53:59,705
and they don't have a publicly traded company

934
00:53:59,705 --> 00:54:01,645
that can issue a convertible bond, right?

935
00:54:01,645 --> 00:54:04,345
They have the Bitcoin, which is their credit worthiness now,

936
00:54:04,345 --> 00:54:06,205
and they can post it to a place like that

937
00:54:06,205 --> 00:54:09,245
and get world-class service, world-class rates.

938
00:54:10,245 --> 00:54:12,145
They can't do that with their local home.

939
00:54:12,145 --> 00:54:13,585
They can't do that with their car.

940
00:54:13,585 --> 00:54:15,305
They can't do that with their local business.

941
00:54:15,305 --> 00:54:19,905
And so I think that Bitcoin is going to become

942
00:54:21,045 --> 00:54:24,145
the cornerstone asset of most portfolios,

943
00:54:24,145 --> 00:54:26,285
particularly outside the US,

944
00:54:26,285 --> 00:54:28,045
because most people outside the US

945
00:54:28,045 --> 00:54:30,085
don't trust their local banking system.

946
00:54:30,085 --> 00:54:31,765
They don't want to use local banks.

947
00:54:31,765 --> 00:54:34,165
They want to use something international.

948
00:54:34,165 --> 00:54:37,005
And Bitcoin allows you to do that with a lot,

949
00:54:37,005 --> 00:54:38,725
with a very little friction

950
00:54:39,725 --> 00:54:41,265
versus what had to happen before,

951
00:54:41,265 --> 00:54:43,105
which was you have to fly to the US,

952
00:54:43,105 --> 00:54:47,005
open up an LLC, buy a property, deal with the US bank.

953
00:54:48,605 --> 00:54:49,445
That was very cumbersome.

954
00:54:49,445 --> 00:54:50,865
That's going to cost you more than 12%.

955
00:54:50,865 --> 00:54:52,925
That's going to cost you a lot more than 12%.

956
00:54:52,925 --> 00:54:55,345
You know, I joke with my, like, I say this myself too.

957
00:54:55,345 --> 00:54:57,405
Like my job doesn't feel like a job, right?

958
00:54:57,405 --> 00:55:01,605
Like I do what I love and I never really feel like I'm working.

959
00:55:01,985 --> 00:55:07,165
Even when you're up at midnight still grinding away, it's not work.

960
00:55:07,165 --> 00:55:11,925
My wife sometimes, I remember she told me about the beginning,

961
00:55:12,025 --> 00:55:15,085
in early days of Leiden, which we were six guys

962
00:55:15,085 --> 00:55:17,405
and I was very obsessive about my work.

963
00:55:18,285 --> 00:55:22,765
And I would spend my weekends, all my weekends, all my nights,

964
00:55:22,945 --> 00:55:24,705
just grinding away for Leiden.

965
00:55:24,705 --> 00:55:27,965
and I would use my weekends to write the newsletters.

966
00:55:29,045 --> 00:55:31,165
And my wife was, you know, one day she's like,

967
00:55:31,705 --> 00:55:32,285
pulls me aside.

968
00:55:32,365 --> 00:55:34,105
She's like, baby, I'm a little worried.

969
00:55:34,245 --> 00:55:36,305
She's like, you used to have hobbies.

970
00:55:36,625 --> 00:55:37,805
You used to have friends.

971
00:55:37,985 --> 00:55:39,945
Like now you're just sitting here and you just write.

972
00:55:40,685 --> 00:55:44,465
And I'm like, you know, what do you do for fun these days?

973
00:55:44,785 --> 00:55:45,905
And I was like, what do you mean?

974
00:55:45,945 --> 00:55:46,465
The newsletter.

975
00:55:47,665 --> 00:55:48,845
I love writing the newsletter.

976
00:55:49,585 --> 00:55:50,765
Honestly, I'm in the same boat.

977
00:55:50,985 --> 00:55:53,005
Before I, well, I've had a kid as well,

978
00:55:53,065 --> 00:55:53,705
which changes things.

979
00:55:53,705 --> 00:55:54,905
but congrats.

980
00:55:54,905 --> 00:55:56,345
Thank you, man.

981
00:55:56,345 --> 00:55:59,445
But like I was, I would go surfing three or four times a week.

982
00:55:59,445 --> 00:56:00,805
I think since I started the podcast

983
00:56:00,805 --> 00:56:03,345
and obviously with the kid, I've been like once

984
00:56:03,345 --> 00:56:06,285
in the last six months, those hobbies just go.

985
00:56:06,285 --> 00:56:07,125
I didn't know you served.

986
00:56:07,125 --> 00:56:08,585
You need to come, you need to come to Cayman.

987
00:56:08,585 --> 00:56:09,925
I used to have a surfboard company.

988
00:56:09,925 --> 00:56:10,765
Did you?

989
00:56:10,765 --> 00:56:11,585
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

990
00:56:11,585 --> 00:56:12,525
Way before my fiat life.

991
00:56:12,525 --> 00:56:13,765
Like making surfboards?

992
00:56:13,765 --> 00:56:15,665
Yeah, I brought them in.

993
00:56:15,665 --> 00:56:17,225
Well, I used to make it, manufacture them in China

994
00:56:17,225 --> 00:56:18,525
and would bring them into Venezuela.

995
00:56:18,525 --> 00:56:20,925
I've done some, I'll try and find a picture.

996
00:56:20,925 --> 00:56:24,205
I went through a period where I was like hand shaping a load of boards.

997
00:56:24,405 --> 00:56:24,745
No way.

998
00:56:24,985 --> 00:56:25,245
Yeah.

999
00:56:25,525 --> 00:56:26,505
This was way back.

1000
00:56:26,565 --> 00:56:28,005
I don't actually know if I'll even have it on the phone.

1001
00:56:29,025 --> 00:56:29,605
Let's see.

1002
00:56:30,505 --> 00:56:31,105
I don't know.

1003
00:56:31,105 --> 00:56:32,825
You guys are blessed with amazing surf.

1004
00:56:33,005 --> 00:56:33,365
Totally.

1005
00:56:33,985 --> 00:56:39,405
That's, we're like 40 minutes from the Gold Coast, like an hour from the Sunshine Coast.

1006
00:56:39,645 --> 00:56:40,045
Nice.

1007
00:56:40,285 --> 00:56:41,105
Insanely good waves.

1008
00:56:42,385 --> 00:56:43,225
Where were we at?

1009
00:56:43,485 --> 00:56:44,865
Oh, I want to talk to you about the banks.

1010
00:56:45,145 --> 00:56:45,365
Sure.

1011
00:56:45,585 --> 00:56:47,965
Because like you said, they're not coming.

1012
00:56:48,105 --> 00:56:48,445
They're here.

1013
00:56:48,985 --> 00:56:50,525
They're all going to look at doing this stuff.

1014
00:56:50,925 --> 00:56:55,345
I think they're going to make a lot of mistakes in sort of the early days of these loan products

1015
00:56:55,345 --> 00:56:56,325
that they'll inevitably offer.

1016
00:56:56,425 --> 00:56:59,265
Like, I'm sure they'll all be rehypothecated.

1017
00:56:59,425 --> 00:57:00,885
Maybe they'll do that in a way that they can cover.

1018
00:57:01,065 --> 00:57:01,645
Who knows?

1019
00:57:02,105 --> 00:57:05,185
But like, what do you think that's going to do for the lending market in Bitcoin?

1020
00:57:06,025 --> 00:57:08,485
I think it's going to open optionality for people.

1021
00:57:08,485 --> 00:57:12,805
I think it's going to, the main benefit of this whole thing is going to be driving the

1022
00:57:12,805 --> 00:57:13,745
cost of these loans down.

1023
00:57:14,325 --> 00:57:14,485
Okay.

1024
00:57:14,965 --> 00:57:20,565
Driving the cost of these loans down makes them exponentially more attractive because

1025
00:57:20,565 --> 00:57:27,885
your hurdle rate for what you want to do with that cash, the bar that you have to clear drops

1026
00:57:27,885 --> 00:57:32,985
significantly, right? Like if I tell you a borrowing against your Bitcoin costs you 12%,

1027
00:57:33,545 --> 00:57:39,205
you know, are you going to do it to start a business that has some uncertainty to it? You

1028
00:57:39,205 --> 00:57:42,145
may not know. But if I tell you the cost of borrowing against your Bitcoin is going to be

1029
00:57:42,145 --> 00:57:48,105
five or three, then that risk becomes a lot lower because you might have enough saved up to cover

1030
00:57:48,105 --> 00:57:51,245
of the interest in the repayments and you might feel comfortable and you might want to do that.

1031
00:57:51,465 --> 00:57:57,645
But the drop of the cost of these loans is going to be, it's going to make them exponentially more

1032
00:57:57,645 --> 00:58:04,045
attractive and more useful for people. And they will be able to use these loans for more things,

1033
00:58:04,325 --> 00:58:11,145
right? That's, I think, the first thing. Second, I do think that there's going to be a world where

1034
00:58:11,145 --> 00:58:14,685
you're going to have the option to borrow with the rehypothecation option. You're going to have

1035
00:58:14,685 --> 00:58:18,905
the option probably to generate Bitcoin yield as well, which we used to offer at Lettend.

1036
00:58:19,545 --> 00:58:23,025
And there's going to be the people like us that just want to focus on keeping your Bitcoin safe

1037
00:58:23,025 --> 00:58:30,765
in custody at all times and lend you on that. And that's going to open the swat of options for

1038
00:58:30,765 --> 00:58:37,125
people. Adults can make their own decisions. I 100% like this is something I had Jet Miles on

1039
00:58:37,125 --> 00:58:41,505
the show, I don't know, a month or so ago, and he was talking about what they're doing at Strike.

1040
00:58:41,505 --> 00:58:46,825
And one of the things I said in that show, which I firmly stand behind, is I don't even have a problem with rehypothecation.

1041
00:58:47,005 --> 00:58:52,705
As long as everyone is entering an agreement knowing what the product they are entering is, I don't particularly care.

1042
00:58:52,765 --> 00:58:53,725
People can do what they want with their money.

1043
00:58:53,865 --> 00:58:54,745
I wouldn't use it.

1044
00:58:55,005 --> 00:58:57,585
I want to use a service like Ledin for this.

1045
00:58:57,665 --> 00:59:01,325
But I don't care that that exists, and I'm sure it will come back at some point.

1046
00:59:01,565 --> 00:59:03,945
Yeah, I'll give you a couple of funny anecdotes.

1047
00:59:03,945 --> 00:59:15,865
It's like the thing where one of the challenges I see with these types of products is that even though you were very upfront about the risks with people,

1048
00:59:15,865 --> 00:59:25,585
and I say this because when Lennon started offering the two options, custody and standard loans, where it was basically non-rehapothecated and rehypothecated loans, we offer both.

1049
00:59:25,585 --> 00:59:33,105
I thought, as a Bitcoin company, no one would touch the rehypothecator loan because now that

1050
00:59:33,105 --> 00:59:36,225
this option is available, everybody should flock to this one.

1051
00:59:36,225 --> 00:59:41,345
Naturally, my non-rehpothecator loan has a higher interest rate than the one where I

1052
00:59:41,345 --> 00:59:44,145
was able to lend some of the collateral.

1053
00:59:44,145 --> 00:59:49,705
Danny, it was incredible to see how many people just flock.

1054
00:59:49,705 --> 00:59:52,085
They just see the 2% lower rate, whatever it is.

1055
00:59:52,085 --> 01:00:00,685
You see the delta on the interest rate, and it doesn't matter how much you try to hammer the difference and highlight the risks to them, they will go for the lower rate.

1056
01:00:01,325 --> 01:00:16,745
That's one also, I mean, that plays into the fact of why we're getting rid of it all together is because even though people will tell you a lot of times they understand, yes, don't worry, in the back of their minds, they're basically saying, but that's never going to happen, right?

1057
01:00:16,745 --> 01:00:19,705
Like there's no scenario in which this would happen.

1058
01:00:19,705 --> 01:00:29,185
Like even though we've been through BlockFi, even though we've been through Celsius, even though we've been through Voyager, there are still people out there that say, ah, I'll take the risk with the extra 2%.

1059
01:00:29,185 --> 01:00:34,485
And frankly, I think that those options, again, will pop up again.

1060
01:00:35,505 --> 01:00:39,065
And with people like the banks and maybe not necessarily.

1061
01:00:39,285 --> 01:00:40,605
Maybe some banks will.

1062
01:00:40,905 --> 01:00:45,465
Maybe some other lenders that are crypto native will try to offer this too.

1063
01:00:45,465 --> 01:00:52,425
there's a lot of risk when you are lending Bitcoin in any way of shape or form.

1064
01:00:52,685 --> 01:00:56,405
That's why we got rid of all Bitcoin lending at Leten, one of the big reasons.

1065
01:00:58,085 --> 01:01:02,405
Because, you know, you're lending an asset that can't be reprinted, right?

1066
01:01:02,405 --> 01:01:03,705
They can't be FDIC insured.

1067
01:01:03,905 --> 01:01:05,565
You can't make a backup of the NAR.

1068
01:01:05,965 --> 01:01:11,025
There's no backstop to somebody if you lose Bitcoin, right?

1069
01:01:11,025 --> 01:01:16,505
And so I think there will continue to be these types of yield products.

1070
01:01:16,585 --> 01:01:18,965
There will continue to be these types of rehypothecated products.

1071
01:01:19,225 --> 01:01:23,665
There will be losses in these products, again, down the line.

1072
01:01:23,885 --> 01:01:27,925
That's why we want to have no role and no participation in any of those.

1073
01:01:28,665 --> 01:01:30,385
But I think it's inevitable, right?

1074
01:01:30,405 --> 01:01:32,705
I guess it's an inevitable part of a free market, right?

1075
01:01:32,725 --> 01:01:34,505
Like people will put that option out.

1076
01:01:35,105 --> 01:01:35,925
Some will use it.

1077
01:01:36,565 --> 01:01:40,025
And eventually, I don't know when or how or how bad it's going to be,

1078
01:01:40,025 --> 01:01:44,725
but there will be an event where some people took too much risk and that gets reset.

1079
01:01:45,245 --> 01:01:47,745
It's just like growing and pruning and growing and pruning.

1080
01:01:47,745 --> 01:01:48,805
It's just a boom bus cycle.

1081
01:01:48,805 --> 01:01:53,965
It's just part of the fiat system we live in, right?

1082
01:01:54,105 --> 01:01:59,805
And you can't have the booms without the pruning process, right?

1083
01:01:59,925 --> 01:02:03,925
And I would argue that lending is an example, right?

1084
01:02:03,925 --> 01:02:06,285
Like we had the first boom with,

1085
01:02:06,285 --> 01:02:08,745
the first boom of any lenders at all,

1086
01:02:08,905 --> 01:02:10,725
which was the right around the time

1087
01:02:10,725 --> 01:02:12,565
our sales and chain BlockFi sales,

1088
01:02:12,645 --> 01:02:14,745
he was like, we were the first batch, right?

1089
01:02:14,805 --> 01:02:15,565
Of lenders.

1090
01:02:15,965 --> 01:02:17,365
And there was product market fit.

1091
01:02:17,405 --> 01:02:17,865
It was clear.

1092
01:02:17,945 --> 01:02:19,065
We all skyrocketed.

1093
01:02:19,305 --> 01:02:21,665
Then there was a massive pruning down, right?

1094
01:02:21,865 --> 01:02:24,125
Now we're starting to see the next wave of growth.

1095
01:02:24,185 --> 01:02:25,405
And now it's not BlockFi.

1096
01:02:25,545 --> 01:02:27,245
The characters have changed.

1097
01:02:27,325 --> 01:02:28,545
Some of the characters have removed

1098
01:02:28,545 --> 01:02:30,205
and the new people are coming into this part two

1099
01:02:30,205 --> 01:02:32,365
of the movie, but we're going to see that too.

1100
01:02:32,365 --> 01:02:35,085
We're going to see a bunch of a tide lifting all boats.

1101
01:02:35,685 --> 01:02:38,965
Then oceans will retrace again.

1102
01:02:39,305 --> 01:02:42,105
You'll find out who was swimming naked, who was taking too much risk.

1103
01:02:43,385 --> 01:02:48,885
So I think that we're going to see this pattern again.

1104
01:02:49,745 --> 01:02:54,805
And that said, I think these products will continue to find a reason to exist.

1105
01:02:55,205 --> 01:02:58,725
Like, you know, how many people have won the lottery?

1106
01:02:59,725 --> 01:03:00,305
There are a few.

1107
01:03:00,425 --> 01:03:01,525
How many people still play the lottery?

1108
01:03:01,525 --> 01:03:06,865
a lot of them like it's it's you know they it's just because the trade has historically failed

1109
01:03:06,865 --> 01:03:11,065
doesn't mean there's not going to be people trying to line up to do it again what if you

1110
01:03:11,065 --> 01:03:15,845
could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time well by mining bitcoin with blockware

1111
01:03:15,845 --> 01:03:21,205
you can new tax guidelines from the big beautiful bill allow american miners to write off 100% of

1112
01:03:21,205 --> 01:03:27,145
the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year that's right 100% write-off if you have 100k

1113
01:03:27,145 --> 01:03:33,025
capital gains or income you can purchase 100k of miners and offset it entirely. Blockware's

1114
01:03:33,025 --> 01:03:37,125
mining as a service enables you to start mining bitcoin right now without lifting a finger.

1115
01:03:37,665 --> 01:03:42,025
Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low-cost power to configuring

1116
01:03:42,025 --> 01:03:47,285
the mining pool they do it all. You get to stack bitcoin at a discount every single day while also

1117
01:03:47,285 --> 01:03:53,245
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1118
01:03:53,245 --> 01:03:58,325
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1119
01:03:59,065 --> 01:04:04,565
Of course, none of this is tax advice. Speak with Blockware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com

1120
01:04:04,565 --> 01:04:08,865
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1121
01:04:08,865 --> 01:04:13,145
with my Bitcoin cold storage. This is where Anchor Watch comes in. With Anchor Watch,

1122
01:04:13,145 --> 01:04:17,105
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1123
01:04:17,525 --> 01:04:21,745
and all Bitcoin is held in their time-locked multi-sig bolts. So you have the peace of mind

1124
01:04:21,745 --> 01:04:26,045
knowing your Bitcoin is fully insured while not giving up custody. So whether you're worried about

1125
01:04:26,045 --> 01:04:30,165
inheritance planning, wrench attacks, natural disasters, or just your own mistakes, you're

1126
01:04:30,165 --> 01:04:35,305
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1127
01:04:35,305 --> 01:04:40,225
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1128
01:04:40,225 --> 01:04:45,565
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1129
01:04:45,925 --> 01:04:49,965
That is anchorwatch.com. Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin?

1130
01:04:49,965 --> 01:04:53,865
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1131
01:04:54,145 --> 01:04:58,785
and since 2018, they've issued over $9 billion in loans with a perfect record of protecting client

1132
01:04:58,785 --> 01:05:03,585
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1133
01:05:03,705 --> 01:05:09,565
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1134
01:05:09,745 --> 01:05:13,865
meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin-backed loans with all collateral held by Ledin directly

1135
01:05:13,865 --> 01:05:17,605
or their funding partners. Your Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest.

1136
01:05:18,065 --> 01:05:19,685
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1137
01:05:19,685 --> 01:05:21,405
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1138
01:05:21,865 --> 01:05:23,765
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1139
01:05:23,765 --> 01:05:24,825
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1140
01:05:24,865 --> 01:05:26,225
I had the dollars in my bank account.

1141
01:05:26,405 --> 01:05:27,225
It was super smooth.

1142
01:05:27,645 --> 01:05:28,585
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1143
01:05:28,665 --> 01:05:29,845
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1144
01:05:30,045 --> 01:05:33,525
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1145
01:05:33,525 --> 01:05:36,105
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1146
01:05:36,565 --> 01:05:39,845
That's learn.ledin.io forward slash WBD.

1147
01:05:40,105 --> 01:05:41,245
Well, I'm really glad though

1148
01:05:41,245 --> 01:05:42,345
with the direction you guys have gone.

1149
01:05:42,525 --> 01:05:44,025
I'm really glad you guys are a sponsor.

1150
01:05:44,205 --> 01:05:45,205
I fully support what you're doing.

1151
01:05:45,285 --> 01:05:46,045
I think it's very cool.

1152
01:05:46,305 --> 01:05:46,685
Thanks, man.

1153
01:05:46,685 --> 01:05:49,385
I'm now a customer of Ledin, which is very cool.

1154
01:05:49,545 --> 01:05:49,685
Cheers.

1155
01:05:50,565 --> 01:05:55,525
No, I think it's 100% the right direction to go, which I'm pumped about, man.

1156
01:05:55,785 --> 01:05:58,305
But the other thing I wanted to talk to you about,

1157
01:05:58,425 --> 01:06:02,005
last time you were on What Bitcoin Did, not Mr. Obnoxious,

1158
01:06:02,365 --> 01:06:05,505
we were talking about the elections in Venezuela.

1159
01:06:05,825 --> 01:06:06,205
Yes.

1160
01:06:06,345 --> 01:06:07,625
And it was right around the time.

1161
01:06:07,665 --> 01:06:09,705
I think it was like the week before the elections actually happened,

1162
01:06:09,765 --> 01:06:10,425
if I remember right.

1163
01:06:11,365 --> 01:06:13,265
Majuro obviously won again.

1164
01:06:13,265 --> 01:06:26,385
Well, won again. Obviously rigged unfair elections. But give me the update. What's kind of happened since? Because in fact, let's start with you should tell the story of running away from Venezuela or your brother running away from Venezuela because that's crazy.

1165
01:06:26,785 --> 01:06:38,785
Yeah, no, happy to. So I'll give you the background. So I am born and raised in Venezuela. That's where I found Bitcoin. And that's where, well, that's where I experienced hyperinflation and authoritarianism.

1166
01:06:38,785 --> 01:06:47,085
And my family, it wasn't really me, it was my youngest brother, and my dad found Bitcoin in late 2014, early 2015.

1167
01:06:47,925 --> 01:06:49,185
And we started mining Bitcoin.

1168
01:06:50,045 --> 01:06:58,305
And in Venezuela, back then, there were these very horrible capital controls.

1169
01:06:58,485 --> 01:06:59,745
It was illegal to buy dollars.

1170
01:07:00,925 --> 01:07:07,605
People tried to store their wealth in non-perishables, like cans of tuna, car, tires.

1171
01:07:07,605 --> 01:07:11,605
But then the government started coming out with these hoarding rules.

1172
01:07:11,605 --> 01:07:14,605
So you couldn't have more than four extra tires per car.

1173
01:07:14,605 --> 01:07:16,605
You couldn't have more than two cars to your name.

1174
01:07:16,605 --> 01:07:21,605
You couldn't have more than, you know, if you were found to have too many plastic chairs, believe it or not,

1175
01:07:21,605 --> 01:07:24,605
people stacked plastic chairs, they would consider to be hoarding.

1176
01:07:24,605 --> 01:07:25,605
They would be seized.

1177
01:07:25,605 --> 01:07:26,605
Don't tell Pierre Richard.

1178
01:07:26,605 --> 01:07:36,065
So it was this really dark moment.

1179
01:07:37,405 --> 01:07:48,785
Also, Chavez had just died and we had lost the, well, the regime had determined that they weren't going to allow democracy to thrive in Venezuela again.

1180
01:07:48,785 --> 01:07:52,725
So maybe just to give you the sequence of events, Chavez dies in 2013.

1181
01:07:53,105 --> 01:07:56,365
That triggers a new presidential election, early 2014.

1182
01:07:56,605 --> 01:08:00,205
that's the election that a lot of us went to vote.

1183
01:08:00,305 --> 01:08:02,105
I've told this story a few times

1184
01:08:02,105 --> 01:08:03,685
and apologies if anyone's heard it before.

1185
01:08:03,825 --> 01:08:06,745
But when I flew down with my now wife,

1186
01:08:07,265 --> 01:08:09,905
a lot of the planes that were coming into my Katia,

1187
01:08:10,045 --> 01:08:10,985
which is our main airport,

1188
01:08:11,125 --> 01:08:13,285
were guys all wearing the freedom hat,

1189
01:08:13,345 --> 01:08:14,485
which is a Venezuelan flag,

1190
01:08:14,925 --> 01:08:16,065
and everybody wearing white,

1191
01:08:16,065 --> 01:08:19,105
which was the color of that movement at that time.

1192
01:08:19,585 --> 01:08:21,105
So everyone was coming from anywhere.

1193
01:08:21,445 --> 01:08:22,385
So that was a period of hope.

1194
01:08:22,825 --> 01:08:25,445
Yes, you could feel the hope, honestly.

1195
01:08:25,445 --> 01:08:26,765
You could sense it in the air.

1196
01:08:26,905 --> 01:08:30,725
Like, if it had been a fair system, we would have won.

1197
01:08:30,825 --> 01:08:32,005
The numbers were there.

1198
01:08:32,125 --> 01:08:34,685
Like, I saw it, at least in my hometown,

1199
01:08:35,465 --> 01:08:37,665
where I had seen the previous elections, by the way.

1200
01:08:38,305 --> 01:08:42,065
In the past, I will admit, the first few elections that Chavez won,

1201
01:08:42,105 --> 01:08:42,925
he won them democratically.

1202
01:08:42,925 --> 01:08:43,425
He was popular.

1203
01:08:43,605 --> 01:08:45,125
Yeah, I'm not going to say the guy took him.

1204
01:08:45,205 --> 01:08:47,185
The first few were democratic, 100%.

1205
01:08:47,185 --> 01:08:50,745
This one, though, was not.

1206
01:08:51,345 --> 01:08:52,665
And you could see it.

1207
01:08:53,205 --> 01:08:54,265
It was in your face.

1208
01:08:54,265 --> 01:09:00,705
They made a point to show us that they didn't want us there anymore.

1209
01:09:01,985 --> 01:09:13,985
And after that election, that night when they announced that they were going to keep the reins, that they weren't going to basically allow for a recount, a lot of people that started a series of protests, which I partook in.

1210
01:09:14,905 --> 01:09:24,178
And that was a protest where they were Well it wasn the first time but one of the few times that Maduro brought real guns to shoot down protesters

1211
01:09:24,178 --> 01:09:25,698
And they were trying to make a point.

1212
01:09:27,578 --> 01:09:31,158
So, you know, people I know went down on that protest.

1213
01:09:31,638 --> 01:09:39,277
And that was the moment that triggered hyperinflation, that triggered the wave of mass migration, because people basically gave up.

1214
01:09:39,377 --> 01:09:39,977
They lost hope.

1215
01:09:40,158 --> 01:09:42,857
They said that they were holding on for the election.

1216
01:09:42,857 --> 01:09:49,257
When the election went the wrong way, everybody was just for selling everything and liquidating

1217
01:09:49,257 --> 01:09:50,257
everything.

1218
01:09:50,257 --> 01:09:55,777
And so that's the context in which my family finds Bitcoin, like six months after that

1219
01:09:55,777 --> 01:09:57,178
event.

1220
01:09:57,178 --> 01:10:00,777
And it was because my youngest brother was reluctant to leave the country.

1221
01:10:00,777 --> 01:10:03,357
And so he wanted to stay and do something in the country.

1222
01:10:03,357 --> 01:10:05,357
So he pitched my dad on mining Bitcoin.

1223
01:10:05,357 --> 01:10:06,357
My dad sends me the white paper.

1224
01:10:06,357 --> 01:10:09,038
I said, subsidize energy, subsidize internet.

1225
01:10:09,038 --> 01:10:11,498
The output is globally sellable.

1226
01:10:11,498 --> 01:10:12,498
Seems like a good idea.

1227
01:10:12,498 --> 01:10:15,337
So my brother gets the mine, starts doing very well.

1228
01:10:15,837 --> 01:10:18,337
We start helping a bunch of other people mine in Venezuela.

1229
01:10:19,458 --> 01:10:22,058
And 2017 rolls around.

1230
01:10:23,018 --> 01:10:26,118
And in late 2017, I'll give you the story.

1231
01:10:26,218 --> 01:10:28,877
Actually, I don't think I've broken this down before, but to give you the context.

1232
01:10:30,118 --> 01:10:38,297
Maduro and the cronies had a system whereby the people that were doing the bad deeds, right?

1233
01:10:38,297 --> 01:10:46,757
The guys that were going out with the real guns at the protests, the guys that were, you know, doing his dirty work on his behalf.

1234
01:10:47,158 --> 01:10:48,377
He needed to get them paid.

1235
01:10:48,638 --> 01:10:50,718
He needed to pay them and they needed to earn well.

1236
01:10:51,357 --> 01:10:56,377
So in some cases, and this is known, I mean, don't take it from me, fact check it.

1237
01:10:56,438 --> 01:11:01,038
But the Venezuelan army basically is a drug trafficking ring, right?

1238
01:11:01,058 --> 01:11:03,857
And so some generals have rights to some border crossings.

1239
01:11:04,277 --> 01:11:05,658
That doesn't seem hard to believe.

1240
01:11:05,898 --> 01:11:06,738
Well, there you go.

1241
01:11:06,738 --> 01:11:12,337
So that trade keeps some fed, but it wasn't enough.

1242
01:11:12,498 --> 01:11:14,977
He needed to basically get more things.

1243
01:11:15,238 --> 01:11:19,238
So I think in 20, the first one was El Dacaso.

1244
01:11:19,518 --> 01:11:22,917
If you Google, anyone listening can Google El Dacaso, D-A-K-A-Z-O.

1245
01:11:23,458 --> 01:11:27,738
El Dacaso was in December, which is when things start getting heated because Christmas comes along.

1246
01:11:27,797 --> 01:11:28,998
You have money for gifts for your kids.

1247
01:11:29,257 --> 01:11:30,038
You have crappy Christmas.

1248
01:11:30,038 --> 01:11:47,797
So Maduro every Christmas would basically get a private company that had a bunch of inventory or that had been getting dollars from the government to import things and would say, oh, this company is, we're granting them dollars at a preferential rate.

1249
01:11:47,797 --> 01:11:52,357
They're bringing the goods and they're selling them at the fair market rate.

1250
01:11:52,417 --> 01:11:59,477
So they're basically arbitraging the exchange rate we give them to bring the goods with the real market of dollars.

1251
01:11:59,477 --> 01:12:03,817
So to paint a picture, the government says a dollar is two bolivres.

1252
01:12:04,357 --> 01:12:06,558
The real market says a dollar is 10 bolivres.

1253
01:12:07,058 --> 01:12:13,438
So these guys were buying dollars for two, bring the goods, and then price the goods at 10 bolivres per dollar.

1254
01:12:13,817 --> 01:12:16,518
So Maduro would say, and everybody was doing this, by the way.

1255
01:12:16,658 --> 01:12:17,477
It wasn't just that.

1256
01:12:17,658 --> 01:12:18,058
Of course, yeah.

1257
01:12:18,098 --> 01:12:19,578
Maduro wanted to make an example.

1258
01:12:20,178 --> 01:12:24,797
And not only just make an example, he wanted to satisfy his cronies.

1259
01:12:25,257 --> 01:12:26,698
So this was a national chain.

1260
01:12:26,698 --> 01:12:28,718
They had stores in a bunch of countries.

1261
01:12:29,477 --> 01:12:39,138
So he basically goes and says, on December 20th, there's going to be a fire sale in all of these stores priced at the dollar rates that we gave to them.

1262
01:12:39,138 --> 01:12:44,078
Basically like 90% off everything. Flat screens, fridges, microwaves.

1263
01:12:44,898 --> 01:12:46,977
Denny, it was party.

1264
01:12:47,317 --> 01:12:53,417
You could see people walking around with flat screens and their things and radios over here, washing machines.

1265
01:12:53,458 --> 01:12:55,297
Because presumably they know they can sell it a week later.

1266
01:12:55,297 --> 01:12:55,857
Of course.

1267
01:12:56,138 --> 01:13:06,718
This was really just taking a private company and basically making a piñata out of it and just banging through their inventory to populism.

1268
01:13:07,477 --> 01:13:08,757
Populism through and through.

1269
01:13:09,498 --> 01:13:10,277
So that was 2014.

1270
01:13:10,518 --> 01:13:13,038
2015, he did this with a shoe company.

1271
01:13:14,038 --> 01:13:15,558
And so everybody got free shoes.

1272
01:13:16,337 --> 01:13:18,857
2016, I think he brought pig from Brazil.

1273
01:13:18,857 --> 01:13:21,518
He brought a bunch of pork and gave people pork.

1274
01:13:22,098 --> 01:13:23,438
2017 rolled around.

1275
01:13:23,438 --> 01:13:28,357
nobody had brought shit because they knew what was going to happen.

1276
01:13:28,438 --> 01:13:30,018
So you make sure your shop's empty around Christmas.

1277
01:13:30,438 --> 01:13:35,018
So basically, 2017 rolls around and he's basically thinking,

1278
01:13:35,118 --> 01:13:36,438
okay, I'm sanctioned.

1279
01:13:37,018 --> 01:13:38,917
You know, I can't tap into the bond market.

1280
01:13:39,938 --> 01:13:41,258
Hyperinflation is running wild.

1281
01:13:41,357 --> 01:13:44,958
So everything I print just makes my life a lot more horrible.

1282
01:13:45,678 --> 01:13:51,357
So I need to find a way to get some money or some free things

1283
01:13:51,357 --> 01:13:54,277
that I can then give to my cronies, right?

1284
01:13:54,917 --> 01:13:57,558
December 2017, Bitcoin was ripping, remember?

1285
01:13:58,178 --> 01:13:59,777
So everybody was talking about Bitcoin.

1286
01:13:59,917 --> 01:14:01,737
And now all these tokens were starting to take a hold.

1287
01:14:02,977 --> 01:14:04,518
So Malura comes out with two great ideas.

1288
01:14:05,977 --> 01:14:08,718
He looks at the import records for 2017.

1289
01:14:09,817 --> 01:14:11,158
He's like, who's Bitmain?

1290
01:14:12,098 --> 01:14:13,377
Because it's keep coming, right?

1291
01:14:13,417 --> 01:14:15,098
It's like Bitmain, Bitmain, Bitmain.

1292
01:14:15,198 --> 01:14:16,417
Like myself, a bunch of other people

1293
01:14:16,417 --> 01:14:17,737
were ordering miners after miners

1294
01:14:17,737 --> 01:14:19,158
so you could see in the invoices,

1295
01:14:19,158 --> 01:14:24,837
on the packing lists, you know, this machine or this company was sending a lot of things

1296
01:14:24,837 --> 01:14:25,837
to Venezuela.

1297
01:14:25,837 --> 01:14:27,158
So he's like, what's this Bitmain thing?

1298
01:14:27,158 --> 01:14:29,158
It's like, oh, it's Bitcoin mining equipment.

1299
01:14:29,158 --> 01:14:32,917
So wait, wait, is that the uncensorable thing?

1300
01:14:32,917 --> 01:14:35,758
And I was like, yeah.

1301
01:14:35,758 --> 01:14:36,758
And they're here?

1302
01:14:36,758 --> 01:14:37,758
Yeah.

1303
01:14:37,758 --> 01:14:41,258
It's like, okay, we're going to get some Bitcoin.

1304
01:14:41,258 --> 01:14:43,817
So he said he gets two grandiose ideas.

1305
01:14:43,817 --> 01:14:45,317
First one is I'm going to create the Petro.

1306
01:14:45,317 --> 01:14:46,317
Yeah.

1307
01:14:46,317 --> 01:14:48,538
Which was backed by Venezuelan oil.

1308
01:14:48,538 --> 01:14:49,538
Did you read the fine print?

1309
01:14:49,538 --> 01:14:50,538
Of course not.

1310
01:14:50,538 --> 01:14:57,317
So the fine print says, the fine print says, the petrol is backed by a barrel of oil, some

1311
01:14:57,317 --> 01:15:03,538
grams of gold, which is another natural mineral we want, or we have in Venezuela.

1312
01:15:03,538 --> 01:15:09,218
And the last but most important one was, or any other currency or commodity the Venezuelan

1313
01:15:09,218 --> 01:15:12,538
government deems appropriate.

1314
01:15:12,538 --> 01:15:14,538
That's where they got you.

1315
01:15:14,538 --> 01:15:18,118
Of course, he knew this was going to fail spectacularly, but that he still tried to trade mirrors

1316
01:15:18,118 --> 01:15:20,558
for gold with people saying, hey, I'm going to sell you this.

1317
01:15:20,777 --> 01:15:22,078
Are you dumb enough to give me your Bitcoin?

1318
01:15:22,578 --> 01:15:23,158
That failed.

1319
01:15:23,438 --> 01:15:28,558
But his other great idea was to create a miner registry so that people could voluntarily

1320
01:15:28,558 --> 01:15:30,618
register and tell him, mine a Bitcoin.

1321
01:15:33,118 --> 01:15:38,857
In 2018, he starts, obviously, the mining registry failed spectacularly too, because

1322
01:15:38,857 --> 01:15:42,837
nobody in their right minds would go and tell the guy that's trying to kill you.

1323
01:15:42,837 --> 01:15:43,558
Of course not.

1324
01:15:43,618 --> 01:15:44,118
What you're doing.

1325
01:15:44,118 --> 01:15:45,258
But he knew these things.

1326
01:15:45,357 --> 01:15:47,018
He knew both of these were going to fail.

1327
01:15:47,917 --> 01:15:52,198
In late 2017, early 2018, he starts making a Petro roadshow.

1328
01:15:52,438 --> 01:15:55,138
So he starts making this sequence of events across the country.

1329
01:15:55,998 --> 01:15:59,518
And the sequence of events across the country, he's parading ASICs.

1330
01:15:59,598 --> 01:16:03,118
He's parading ASICs and GPU rigs, even though the Petro was proof of stake.

1331
01:16:03,618 --> 01:16:06,977
The Petro was never meant to be mined, but he was bringing ASICs around the country.

1332
01:16:07,098 --> 01:16:08,938
And every time he would stop at a different city, he would say,

1333
01:16:09,538 --> 01:16:10,158
did you see this?

1334
01:16:10,277 --> 01:16:11,218
This is what an ASIC is.

1335
01:16:11,258 --> 01:16:12,118
This is what it sounds like.

1336
01:16:12,118 --> 01:16:13,498
This is how much Bitcoin it makes.

1337
01:16:14,118 --> 01:16:15,237
This is how much electricity it uses.

1338
01:16:15,237 --> 01:16:16,237
This is its heat print.

1339
01:16:16,237 --> 01:16:18,198
This is its sound print.

1340
01:16:18,198 --> 01:16:19,718
By the way, did you know that if you disconnect it

1341
01:16:19,718 --> 01:16:22,277
and put your wallet, you can start making Bitcoin?

1342
01:16:22,277 --> 01:16:23,737
It's a brilliant device.

1343
01:16:24,638 --> 01:16:27,198
And then he's like, this over here is a GPU rig.

1344
01:16:27,198 --> 01:16:31,078
This one has graphics cards and it's quieter,

1345
01:16:31,078 --> 01:16:32,558
but still uses this much energy.

1346
01:16:32,558 --> 01:16:33,638
This is how much this one makes.

1347
01:16:33,638 --> 01:16:37,817
Similarly, take it off, put your address, off you go.

1348
01:16:37,817 --> 01:16:40,518
He was giving people a blueprint to come after the miners.

1349
01:16:42,038 --> 01:16:43,518
Not surprisingly, weeks after,

1350
01:16:43,518 --> 01:16:46,877
we start getting some surprise visits in the facilities,

1351
01:16:46,877 --> 01:16:49,438
myself and a bunch of people in the industry.

1352
01:16:49,438 --> 01:16:53,198
They were utility reps, they were municipal reps.

1353
01:16:53,198 --> 01:16:57,198
And we all knew, we had suspicions.

1354
01:16:57,198 --> 01:16:59,038
Weeks after they start coming with guns

1355
01:16:59,038 --> 01:17:02,678
and demanding machines and demanding money.

1356
01:17:02,678 --> 01:17:07,438
And January 18, I think it was,

1357
01:17:07,438 --> 01:17:09,178
they get to my brother's facility.

1358
01:17:09,178 --> 01:17:11,218
They bust through the door,

1359
01:17:11,218 --> 01:17:13,558
like a SWAT-like team with like long guns.

1360
01:17:14,098 --> 01:17:14,797
There's a picture.

1361
01:17:14,898 --> 01:17:16,518
I can send it to you so you can link it in the show.

1362
01:17:16,518 --> 01:17:16,857
Yeah, absolutely.

1363
01:17:17,458 --> 01:17:19,837
But they basically show like two guys with guns

1364
01:17:19,837 --> 01:17:22,158
standing next to 17A6 and two fans.

1365
01:17:22,877 --> 01:17:24,377
You know, like it was a massive drug bust.

1366
01:17:25,237 --> 01:17:27,837
And so they start trying to extort my brother.

1367
01:17:28,237 --> 01:17:29,498
My brother wasn't at the site,

1368
01:17:29,698 --> 01:17:32,458
but they quickly got a hold of his contact information,

1369
01:17:33,098 --> 01:17:34,837
basically start calling him and saying,

1370
01:17:34,917 --> 01:17:36,458
you give us the money and the machines

1371
01:17:36,458 --> 01:17:37,618
and we don't throw you in jail.

1372
01:17:38,578 --> 01:17:39,538
Jail for what?

1373
01:17:39,678 --> 01:17:40,737
We're not doing anything illegal.

1374
01:17:40,737 --> 01:17:43,098
Well, let's start making up these charges, these fake charges.

1375
01:17:44,598 --> 01:17:46,198
So it's 8 p.m.

1376
01:17:47,638 --> 01:17:49,498
These guys are hounding my brother.

1377
01:17:50,158 --> 01:17:54,038
And they start threatening him, saying, hey, listen, we know where you live.

1378
01:17:54,178 --> 01:17:55,178
We know where your kids go to school.

1379
01:17:55,337 --> 01:17:56,357
We know where your business is.

1380
01:17:56,598 --> 01:17:59,317
Like, you have until tonight to come up with the money.

1381
01:18:01,518 --> 01:18:08,118
And my brother, with his wife and two kids, late at night, makes the decision to escape

1382
01:18:08,118 --> 01:18:13,678
and go to the border and use the Bitcoin he has in exchanges and in his ledger to basically leave

1383
01:18:13,678 --> 01:18:19,377
and build a new life. And now to do this, we live dead in the center of the country. To do this,

1384
01:18:19,398 --> 01:18:24,078
we have to get to the Colombian border, which is nine hours away. It's a very treacherous road

1385
01:18:24,078 --> 01:18:30,777
in the most dangerous country in the world. There's no fuel. So it was a huge family effort.

1386
01:18:30,917 --> 01:18:35,877
We had family that lived along the way in San Cristobal and Merida, and they drove to the

1387
01:18:35,877 --> 01:18:41,198
highway with fuel so that he could they could fuel up his tank with pimpinas this is a true story

1388
01:18:41,198 --> 01:18:45,958
without him having to leave the highway because he didn't have much time the guys the extortionists

1389
01:18:45,958 --> 01:18:50,658
were calling my dad saying we know you're going to make a run for it tonight we're going to shoot

1390
01:18:50,658 --> 01:18:54,658
we're going to basically send out a warrant so you can't leave the country holy shit so my brother

1391
01:18:54,658 --> 01:19:00,598
has against the clock in fact he went to a border crossing point that is so remote in the jungle

1392
01:19:00,598 --> 01:19:03,538
that is not connected physically to the infrastructure.

1393
01:19:04,018 --> 01:19:07,658
So the point was that even if they did try to get a message out that night,

1394
01:19:07,737 --> 01:19:11,578
it wouldn't have been fetched by the time he got there.

1395
01:19:12,377 --> 01:19:13,917
So he got there.

1396
01:19:14,258 --> 01:19:15,237
He crossed.

1397
01:19:15,938 --> 01:19:19,078
I remember because I had to pay with my – we didn't want to use any of his cards.

1398
01:19:19,078 --> 01:19:22,018
So I used my Canadian card to pay for his hotel night in Cucuta,

1399
01:19:22,158 --> 01:19:23,598
which is the border town.

1400
01:19:25,638 --> 01:19:29,917
I still remember the call he made when he was about to go through the border crossing

1401
01:19:29,917 --> 01:19:32,417
because that was like you got there, but-

1402
01:19:32,417 --> 01:19:33,618
That was the crucial moment.

1403
01:19:33,718 --> 01:19:34,817
That was the crucial moment.

1404
01:19:36,277 --> 01:19:38,758
I mean, I still get goosebumps because he was crying.

1405
01:19:38,998 --> 01:19:41,518
And I was with, like, I couldn't understand why.

1406
01:19:41,618 --> 01:19:43,377
He's like, I'm taking my wife and two kids

1407
01:19:43,377 --> 01:19:46,158
and I might not get out.

1408
01:19:48,178 --> 01:19:49,237
So he goes.

1409
01:19:50,098 --> 01:19:52,578
Luckily, 20 minutes later, he calls me from the other side.

1410
01:19:52,698 --> 01:19:53,558
He's like, I made it.

1411
01:19:53,698 --> 01:19:54,297
We're good.

1412
01:19:55,877 --> 01:19:57,417
We brought the Bitcoin with us.

1413
01:19:57,538 --> 01:19:58,618
The ASICs, they took.

1414
01:19:58,618 --> 01:20:00,658
the Bitcoin they could never touch.

1415
01:20:02,118 --> 01:20:04,218
And from there, my family was my brother,

1416
01:20:04,357 --> 01:20:05,357
my family, my parents,

1417
01:20:05,417 --> 01:20:06,758
because we were all Bitcoiners at the time.

1418
01:20:06,817 --> 01:20:08,917
A lot of us, most of our wealth wasn't Bitcoin.

1419
01:20:09,377 --> 01:20:12,258
From there, we were able to rebuild our lives.

1420
01:20:12,598 --> 01:20:14,477
I had already had started Ledin at the time.

1421
01:20:14,578 --> 01:20:16,837
Ledin was just off the ground.

1422
01:20:17,737 --> 01:20:20,398
Actually, my family was one of my first clients, actually.

1423
01:20:20,398 --> 01:20:22,198
So shout out to my dad and my brothers.

1424
01:20:23,658 --> 01:20:24,958
And a bunch of my friends, actually.

1425
01:20:25,098 --> 01:20:26,458
They were my first clients.

1426
01:20:26,658 --> 01:20:28,098
And I remember some VCs at the beginning.

1427
01:20:28,618 --> 01:20:31,417
They would ask us, do you guys have any clients that are not mouse friends?

1428
01:20:33,357 --> 01:20:39,817
So that was always like a thing that I had to work through because I spent a lot of time mining and a lot of our first clients were like friends and family.

1429
01:20:40,718 --> 01:20:43,678
And but anyway, that's how my brother was able to get out.

1430
01:20:45,158 --> 01:20:53,277
And that's why I had understood the value of Bitcoin before when I was in this capital control environment.

1431
01:20:53,398 --> 01:20:55,178
My brother was selling it at the free market rate.

1432
01:20:55,178 --> 01:21:01,817
To me, that was like my big unlock is, oh my God, this thing allows money to go to its happy place.

1433
01:21:02,018 --> 01:21:07,938
This thing allows people to keep their savings, the value of their savings in a political asset.

1434
01:21:08,297 --> 01:21:09,578
That was to me the biggest thing.

1435
01:21:09,658 --> 01:21:16,638
Then I saw it work in the most extreme circumstance I think I've ever experienced with my family.

1436
01:21:16,638 --> 01:21:25,698
after that man danny like there's no speech you can tell me about bitcoin that's gonna make me

1437
01:21:25,698 --> 01:21:32,178
think that it's not gonna work you've lived it there is no argument you can give to me today

1438
01:21:32,178 --> 01:21:38,317
outside of some quantum thing or perhaps something that's outside of my spec my my specialty in the

1439
01:21:38,317 --> 01:21:46,737
technical realm as it's designed today with no any with any other changes no more changes needed

1440
01:21:46,737 --> 01:21:55,837
to the protocol it did the most important thing we've ever demanded from it or wanted from it it

1441
01:21:55,837 --> 01:22:06,218
worked to me that's that's when people ask me for about other assets and like what do you think

1442
01:22:06,218 --> 01:22:09,917
about this? What do you think about that? Should I buy this? Should I buy that? I'm like, I don't

1443
01:22:09,917 --> 01:22:15,817
have an opinion. I don't want to have an opinion. I have an opinion on Bitcoin. I've seen what it

1444
01:22:15,817 --> 01:22:21,058
can do. Because of that, I don't think there's a price you can put on it. There is no top,

1445
01:22:21,718 --> 01:22:30,477
because what it can do has no price, right? And so that to me was the, once that happened,

1446
01:22:30,718 --> 01:22:36,158
I mean, I already loved Bitcoin, but when that happened, I knew I wasn't going to be able to

1447
01:22:36,158 --> 01:22:45,078
do anything else with my life. That was the sort of escape story that in many ways shaped

1448
01:22:45,078 --> 01:22:49,857
a lot of my views today. I mean, we can talk about Venezuela today, but that was how we got out.

1449
01:22:49,857 --> 01:22:53,678
I think it's hard for anyone who's not been through that. I've certainly not been through

1450
01:22:53,678 --> 01:22:59,297
anything like that to, like, I get it. Like, I know that's what Bitcoin can do, but to live

1451
01:22:59,297 --> 01:23:01,297
through that is insane.

1452
01:23:02,297 --> 01:23:04,797
It was the biggest test of fire.

1453
01:23:07,438 --> 01:23:10,317
Now, mind you, it was still early days.

1454
01:23:11,658 --> 01:23:16,578
It was very unlikely for them to say,

1455
01:23:16,777 --> 01:23:18,098
do you have Bitcoin on you?

1456
01:23:18,477 --> 01:23:19,518
As he was trying to leave.

1457
01:23:19,658 --> 01:23:22,817
It was more so, is there a warrant out?

1458
01:23:23,237 --> 01:23:26,078
Will they try to take him unfairly?

1459
01:23:26,078 --> 01:23:33,718
I wasn't really worried that they were going to find the Bitcoin and take the Bitcoin from him because that just wasn't in anyone's radar at the time.

1460
01:23:33,917 --> 01:23:34,058
Yeah.

1461
01:23:34,297 --> 01:23:38,998
But the fact that they knew he was mining Bitcoin, like it must have been at least somewhat on the radar.

1462
01:23:39,098 --> 01:23:42,477
Oh, if they had fired the warrant, like him and the Bitcoin were going.

1463
01:23:42,598 --> 01:23:42,758
Yeah.

1464
01:23:42,898 --> 01:23:43,078
Right?

1465
01:23:43,138 --> 01:23:45,417
Like it wasn't, it was a binary outcome.

1466
01:23:45,598 --> 01:23:45,777
Yeah.

1467
01:23:46,178 --> 01:23:51,398
But that said, it wasn't just the fact that he was able to cross.

1468
01:23:51,398 --> 01:23:55,277
it was because Bitcoin was the only thing

1469
01:23:55,277 --> 01:23:58,277
that allowed him to make the decision to leave.

1470
01:23:58,438 --> 01:24:00,258
Because he knew he could rebuild his life elsewhere.

1471
01:24:00,538 --> 01:24:00,658
Correct.

1472
01:24:01,178 --> 01:24:04,218
Without it, you would not have made that decision.

1473
01:24:04,417 --> 01:24:05,618
I know many people-

1474
01:24:05,618 --> 01:24:06,458
You're then just a refugee.

1475
01:24:06,857 --> 01:24:08,777
That have been in that same situation

1476
01:24:08,777 --> 01:24:10,837
and their only solution is to sit down

1477
01:24:10,837 --> 01:24:12,357
and negotiate with some assholes

1478
01:24:12,357 --> 01:24:15,558
and to take whatever terms they're giving you.

1479
01:24:16,938 --> 01:24:18,078
And it never ends

1480
01:24:18,078 --> 01:24:20,158
because when an extortionist asks you for five

1481
01:24:20,158 --> 01:24:20,898
and you give them five,

1482
01:24:20,898 --> 01:24:25,857
they'll come back for 10, they'll come back for 15, they'll come back for 20. And so I know people

1483
01:24:25,857 --> 01:24:30,138
in these situations. In fact, in Venezuela, they're called, it's funny, I don't know if people know

1484
01:24:30,138 --> 01:24:36,558
this, but in Venezuela, they're called vaccines. Vaccines are referred to as the payments you give

1485
01:24:36,558 --> 01:24:43,118
to the mob or the gang, the local gang, because in Venezuela, there's no police, right? Police

1486
01:24:43,118 --> 01:24:49,797
doesn't protect you. So what will happen is you have these local rings of a tren de Aragua,

1487
01:24:49,797 --> 01:24:51,477
or, you know, you've heard of Trenderagua

1488
01:24:51,477 --> 01:24:54,297
as like the big sort of organized crime thing

1489
01:24:54,297 --> 01:24:55,118
that moved to the US.

1490
01:24:55,498 --> 01:24:56,678
But equally in Venezuela,

1491
01:24:56,797 --> 01:24:58,998
there's like, there's these gangs, right?

1492
01:24:58,998 --> 01:25:01,698
That control different parts of a city or a city.

1493
01:25:02,477 --> 01:25:03,877
And as a business person,

1494
01:25:04,438 --> 01:25:06,977
they come to your store and they say,

1495
01:25:08,038 --> 01:25:11,098
hey, Miguel, how's business going?

1496
01:25:11,218 --> 01:25:11,438
Great.

1497
01:25:11,558 --> 01:25:14,698
Okay, this month's vaccine is $1,000.

1498
01:25:15,417 --> 01:25:16,678
And what is the vaccine?

1499
01:25:16,777 --> 01:25:19,678
A vaccine is we will ensure nothing happens to you.

1500
01:25:19,797 --> 01:25:22,698
but what happens if I don't pay it?

1501
01:25:22,698 --> 01:25:23,558
Something will happen to you.

1502
01:25:23,558 --> 01:25:25,737
We don't know what happened to you, Miguel,

1503
01:25:25,737 --> 01:25:27,158
or to your store.

1504
01:25:27,158 --> 01:25:28,938
You wanna take that risk.

1505
01:25:28,938 --> 01:25:32,417
And so people live in this constant threat.

1506
01:25:32,417 --> 01:25:34,458
And not only that, like I have people where like,

1507
01:25:34,458 --> 01:25:37,758
they have to pay one gang, but then the next gang comes

1508
01:25:37,758 --> 01:25:39,098
and they're not demanding a vaccine.

1509
01:25:39,098 --> 01:25:40,558
But they're like, no, but I already paid these guys.

1510
01:25:40,558 --> 01:25:42,998
It's like, different groups.

1511
01:25:42,998 --> 01:25:44,158
We need one too.

1512
01:25:44,158 --> 01:25:46,297
They're not gonna protect you from us.

1513
01:25:46,297 --> 01:25:49,777
And so it becomes this bracket, right?

1514
01:25:49,777 --> 01:25:57,558
So even being able to leave the country, even being able to entertain the idea to go and rebuild somewhere else.

1515
01:25:57,558 --> 01:26:01,377
And by the way, it wasn't just Bitcoin, by the way.

1516
01:26:01,498 --> 01:26:04,977
I want to say this because I think it's important for everyone to know this.

1517
01:26:05,538 --> 01:26:09,038
Everyone listening to this show, if you already have Bitcoin, God bless you.

1518
01:26:09,458 --> 01:26:10,477
Go get a second passport.

1519
01:26:11,938 --> 01:26:14,337
Go get a second passport.

1520
01:26:14,337 --> 01:26:19,258
if and when your country goes to shit

1521
01:26:19,258 --> 01:26:22,458
the first people that close the borders

1522
01:26:22,458 --> 01:26:23,758
ironically are your neighbors

1523
01:26:23,758 --> 01:26:26,218
it becomes

1524
01:26:26,218 --> 01:26:28,298
and now once your country is tagged

1525
01:26:28,298 --> 01:26:29,658
as a failed state

1526
01:26:29,658 --> 01:26:31,578
forget visas

1527
01:26:31,578 --> 01:26:33,817
forget a visa

1528
01:26:33,817 --> 01:26:35,477
you're done

1529
01:26:35,477 --> 01:26:36,538
you're cooked

1530
01:26:36,538 --> 01:26:37,298
that passport

1531
01:26:37,298 --> 01:26:38,237
throw it away

1532
01:26:38,237 --> 01:26:40,938
I haven't used my Venezuelan passport

1533
01:26:40,938 --> 01:26:42,197
probably over a decade

1534
01:26:42,197 --> 01:26:43,958
it's shelved somewhere

1535
01:26:43,958 --> 01:26:53,317
it's useless so it's it's a combination of having bitcoin having passport maybe having some cash to

1536
01:26:53,317 --> 01:27:02,138
be able to move uh over that's your plan b right like but bitcoin is an integral part of that

1537
01:27:02,138 --> 01:27:09,357
decision and today i i still you know talk to a lot of my friends that are still there

1538
01:27:10,357 --> 01:27:12,598
A lot of them have Bitcoin, but they choose not to leave.

1539
01:27:12,737 --> 01:27:15,078
There's always many reasons why people choose not to leave.

1540
01:27:15,138 --> 01:27:18,078
Some people have older relatives that need them to be close by.

1541
01:27:18,638 --> 01:27:20,178
Some people inherited their dad's business.

1542
01:27:20,398 --> 01:27:21,317
They don't want to let it go.

1543
01:27:22,098 --> 01:27:25,477
There's many bells and whistles around that decision.

1544
01:27:25,998 --> 01:27:29,058
But that was our experience, or that was my family's journey leaving.

1545
01:27:30,598 --> 01:27:36,078
Luckily, myself and my other brother and my dad were all on vacation when they raided Danny's facility.

1546
01:27:36,377 --> 01:27:37,857
So we all just stayed out of the country.

1547
01:27:37,977 --> 01:27:38,658
We never went back.

1548
01:27:39,357 --> 01:27:44,197
But he was the only one that had to go through that grueling trip to get out.

1549
01:27:44,357 --> 01:27:45,678
It's an insane story.

1550
01:27:45,938 --> 01:27:49,118
I've heard it before, but even hearing it again, it's insane.

1551
01:27:50,258 --> 01:27:52,737
You say that obviously there's different reasons why people stay.

1552
01:27:52,737 --> 01:27:58,458
Is there any hope that there is a fight that can be fought there in terms of fixing things?

1553
01:28:02,718 --> 01:28:04,317
I really want to say yes.

1554
01:28:05,118 --> 01:28:08,777
I really want to say yes.

1555
01:28:08,777 --> 01:28:10,678
Like I really, really do.

1556
01:28:14,377 --> 01:28:18,618
I was asked this the first time I was ever on Peter's show.

1557
01:28:19,798 --> 01:28:20,917
I think it was 2018.

1558
01:28:21,357 --> 01:28:22,398
And it was about Venezuela.

1559
01:28:22,578 --> 01:28:26,518
And it was myself, Giancarlo, and Alejandro Machado talking about Venezuela.

1560
01:28:26,658 --> 01:28:30,598
And at the end of the show, he asked all of us what we thought would happen.

1561
01:28:31,598 --> 01:28:33,058
And I still remember what I said today.

1562
01:28:33,458 --> 01:28:36,178
I said, there won't be a democratic solution.

1563
01:28:36,178 --> 01:28:39,718
if ever there is a change

1564
01:28:39,718 --> 01:28:41,018
it's because guns were drawn

1565
01:28:41,018 --> 01:28:43,197
and there was a big fight

1566
01:28:43,197 --> 01:28:44,917
and the blood was spilled

1567
01:28:44,917 --> 01:28:46,377
and that's how change came about

1568
01:28:46,377 --> 01:28:49,018
I don't see

1569
01:28:49,018 --> 01:28:51,078
a democratic way out

1570
01:28:51,078 --> 01:28:52,098
for Venezuela

1571
01:28:52,098 --> 01:28:53,837
I don't

1572
01:28:53,837 --> 01:28:54,758
in the same way

1573
01:28:54,758 --> 01:28:56,018
I don't see a democratic way out

1574
01:28:56,018 --> 01:28:57,058
for a place like North Korea

1575
01:28:57,058 --> 01:28:58,618
and a place I don't see

1576
01:28:58,618 --> 01:28:59,317
a democratic way out

1577
01:28:59,317 --> 01:29:00,038
in a place like Cuba

1578
01:29:00,038 --> 01:29:02,977
I believe

1579
01:29:02,977 --> 01:29:05,458
this is probably going to get

1580
01:29:05,458 --> 01:29:14,398
like one of the spicy takes, but my spicy take is once you combine a communist regime

1581
01:29:14,398 --> 01:29:20,098
with the military, you can't get them out of power.

1582
01:29:20,998 --> 01:29:22,538
And I'll explain why.

1583
01:29:22,638 --> 01:29:24,417
It's a matter of incentives, right?

1584
01:29:25,938 --> 01:29:29,697
There's obviously cases of the militarized right, and there's cases of the militarized

1585
01:29:29,697 --> 01:29:30,018
left.

1586
01:29:30,958 --> 01:29:35,298
I would argue that the militarized left is much harder to remove from power.

1587
01:29:35,458 --> 01:29:36,658
And I'll explain why.

1588
01:29:37,857 --> 01:29:48,477
The militarized left is supporting things like free everything, free school, free house, free food, free gut, you name it.

1589
01:29:48,578 --> 01:29:50,038
It'll be free, even if it's shitty.

1590
01:29:50,237 --> 01:29:50,678
Yeah, exactly.

1591
01:29:50,777 --> 01:29:52,178
The quality is terrible, but it's free.

1592
01:29:52,197 --> 01:29:52,518
Nobody cares.

1593
01:29:52,638 --> 01:29:53,417
It's just fucking free.

1594
01:29:53,558 --> 01:29:53,737
Yeah.

1595
01:29:53,857 --> 01:29:54,058
Right?

1596
01:29:55,018 --> 01:30:02,078
Whereas the guys on the right are usually the guys that want to start a business, buy an asset, get educated, right?

1597
01:30:02,078 --> 01:30:05,857
outside of the public indoctrination centers

1598
01:30:05,857 --> 01:30:07,038
that they have, they call schools.

1599
01:30:08,578 --> 01:30:12,737
The right tends to think more optimistically

1600
01:30:12,737 --> 01:30:15,898
in their ability to build and effect change

1601
01:30:15,898 --> 01:30:17,498
and their options.

1602
01:30:18,857 --> 01:30:21,917
Whenever you have a cohort of the right

1603
01:30:21,917 --> 01:30:23,317
that starts gaining some strength,

1604
01:30:24,718 --> 01:30:27,578
the militarized left brings out the guns

1605
01:30:27,578 --> 01:30:29,518
and just go boop, boop, boop.

1606
01:30:29,518 --> 01:30:31,777
All you have to do is shoot three or four kids over here.

1607
01:30:32,078 --> 01:30:34,078
immediately what do you think their parents are going to say?

1608
01:30:34,078 --> 01:30:38,078
They're going to say, son, you're educated.

1609
01:30:38,078 --> 01:30:41,078
You speak two languages. We have some money.

1610
01:30:41,078 --> 01:30:44,078
Get out. You can literally go anywhere.

1611
01:30:44,078 --> 01:30:48,078
Just leave. Just leave. Just like my parents told me.

1612
01:30:48,078 --> 01:30:51,078
That's exactly what my parents told me.

1613
01:30:51,078 --> 01:30:54,078
And all my friends, a lot of my friends.

1614
01:30:54,078 --> 01:31:00,078
The right opts out because it can't.

1615
01:31:00,078 --> 01:31:03,218
the left cannot opt out.

1616
01:31:04,298 --> 01:31:07,337
So if you have militarized right,

1617
01:31:07,498 --> 01:31:09,138
even if you have the militarized right,

1618
01:31:09,697 --> 01:31:12,337
if these guys come out in numbers with guns,

1619
01:31:13,578 --> 01:31:15,938
the guys that aren't in the military on the right,

1620
01:31:16,018 --> 01:31:17,058
they're going to say, well, great.

1621
01:31:17,138 --> 01:31:18,558
I'll leave you guys fighting over here.

1622
01:31:18,678 --> 01:31:20,678
I'm going to go build in the free world

1623
01:31:20,678 --> 01:31:21,877
because I don't need any of this.

1624
01:31:21,938 --> 01:31:22,938
I don't want my kids getting shot.

1625
01:31:23,058 --> 01:31:24,598
So I'm out.

1626
01:31:24,898 --> 01:31:28,518
So the people that have the means to rebuild an economy

1627
01:31:28,518 --> 01:31:29,998
also have the means to opt out.

1628
01:31:30,078 --> 01:31:37,638
they're the first ones to do this because they can the left cannot opt out because they don't

1629
01:31:37,638 --> 01:31:40,837
have the same number of resources they don't have the same options they don't have the same

1630
01:31:40,837 --> 01:31:45,317
optionality all they have is fight all they have and then the reason they're willing to die

1631
01:31:45,317 --> 01:31:50,197
for change is because they have nothing to lose

1632
01:31:50,197 --> 01:31:57,938
the right typically has something to lose and so they choose to not fight

1633
01:31:57,938 --> 01:32:02,938
And that's why I think you have this dangerous cocktail

1634
01:32:03,178 --> 01:32:06,417
in a place like Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela.

1635
01:32:06,417 --> 01:32:09,758
These are militarized left of center governments.

1636
01:32:09,758 --> 01:32:14,758
These things are as immovable as a government can be

1637
01:32:15,118 --> 01:32:16,817
through democratic means.

1638
01:32:16,817 --> 01:32:19,118
There's just very, it's very hard.

1639
01:32:19,118 --> 01:32:21,458
So as like the makeup of the people

1640
01:32:21,458 --> 01:32:23,658
who are actually living in Venezuela now,

1641
01:32:23,658 --> 01:32:25,317
how many people are,

1642
01:32:25,352 --> 01:32:28,392
sort of semi-vocally opposed.

1643
01:32:28,472 --> 01:32:30,132
I know you can't be too vocally opposed

1644
01:32:30,132 --> 01:32:30,812
without getting shot,

1645
01:32:30,892 --> 01:32:32,352
but like how many people do they,

1646
01:32:32,472 --> 01:32:34,512
are unhappy with the current regime?

1647
01:32:35,772 --> 01:32:37,372
If you believe the polls

1648
01:32:37,372 --> 01:32:38,592
from the most recent election,

1649
01:32:39,712 --> 01:32:40,752
70% of the country.

1650
01:32:41,052 --> 01:32:41,332
Okay.

1651
01:32:41,832 --> 01:32:42,972
60 to 70% of the country

1652
01:32:42,972 --> 01:32:44,092
would change governments

1653
01:32:44,092 --> 01:32:45,092
if given the chance.

1654
01:32:47,432 --> 01:32:48,912
The problem is that

1655
01:32:48,912 --> 01:32:51,012
they are,

1656
01:32:52,132 --> 01:32:53,272
like I'll give you the example

1657
01:32:53,272 --> 01:32:54,292
of the most recent election,

1658
01:32:54,292 --> 01:32:55,252
Maria Corina Machado,

1659
01:32:55,352 --> 01:33:01,032
we were chatting about with peter maria corina won the numbers are there they're out in the open

1660
01:33:02,392 --> 01:33:11,192
what did he do so one of my uncles was sent to jail because he provided one of his pickup trucks

1661
01:33:11,192 --> 01:33:17,512
to assist in maria corina's campaign insane he was sent to jail he broke out like four months

1662
01:33:17,512 --> 01:33:23,672
after he got sent he broke out well he negotiated a way out and basically left the country he didn't

1663
01:33:23,672 --> 01:33:25,732
like escape. It was like a coordinated

1664
01:33:25,732 --> 01:33:27,352
escape. And

1665
01:33:27,352 --> 01:33:29,512
similar to like Leopoldo Lopez's escape

1666
01:33:29,512 --> 01:33:31,712
and a few other political prisoners, like there's

1667
01:33:31,712 --> 01:33:33,192
basically they're saying

1668
01:33:33,192 --> 01:33:35,372
we'll let you out. Never

1669
01:33:35,372 --> 01:33:37,012
set foot here again. Right?

1670
01:33:37,252 --> 01:33:38,872
And so people take the trade.

1671
01:33:39,892 --> 01:33:41,112
So the

1672
01:33:41,112 --> 01:33:43,312
I had friends, so this is another

1673
01:33:43,312 --> 01:33:45,232
it's just a story just to make an example.

1674
01:33:46,112 --> 01:33:47,712
Maracorina was doing these

1675
01:33:47,712 --> 01:33:49,652
stops across the country, these

1676
01:33:49,652 --> 01:33:51,652
rallies across the country, like any politician does.

1677
01:33:51,652 --> 01:33:58,792
In Barquisimento, which is my hometown, one of my friends invited them to come eat at the restaurant for free.

1678
01:33:59,952 --> 01:34:02,072
They came to the restaurant, they ate for free.

1679
01:34:02,432 --> 01:34:08,092
The next day, his restaurant was shut down for a month for some bullshit rule.

1680
01:34:08,712 --> 01:34:16,292
So they make it very clear to you that if you oppose us, we are going to come after you.

1681
01:34:16,292 --> 01:34:24,412
And even though, and this is one of the most frustrating things to me during this whole thing, which is going to exemplify what I'm telling you.

1682
01:34:24,412 --> 01:34:29,472
You might hear me say, yeah, no, Danny, 60%, 70% of the country is against them.

1683
01:34:29,512 --> 01:34:31,832
And you're like, but why, why would you hear anything?

1684
01:34:32,312 --> 01:34:35,532
Why, why, why aren't more people saying something?

1685
01:34:36,572 --> 01:34:46,272
The reason, while this, while this whole thing was happening after the most recent election, you know, I was flipping through all social media just to see what people were saying.

1686
01:34:46,292 --> 01:34:53,832
And you would hear tweets from people, or I would see posts from people, particularly in Instagram, because Twitter was quickly banned in Venezuela.

1687
01:34:54,832 --> 01:34:58,312
And people had these posts about, like, you know, let's go fight for a recount.

1688
01:34:58,692 --> 01:34:59,712
Let's go help Maria Corina.

1689
01:35:00,012 --> 01:35:00,772
This is unfair.

1690
01:35:00,872 --> 01:35:01,932
They're stealing our elections.

1691
01:35:02,352 --> 01:35:08,172
And I kept seeing a really interesting pattern, which is all these posts were done from Venezuelans outside the country.

1692
01:35:09,972 --> 01:35:13,312
I was looking at the accounts of my friends that I know are in the country.

1693
01:35:14,172 --> 01:35:16,092
Not a fucking peep.

1694
01:35:16,292 --> 01:35:16,852
Of course.

1695
01:35:17,812 --> 01:35:19,052
And so I went to them.

1696
01:35:19,612 --> 01:35:21,652
I couldn't hold it in.

1697
01:35:21,932 --> 01:35:23,352
I messaged a couple of them.

1698
01:35:23,492 --> 01:35:24,252
And I had this call.

1699
01:35:24,972 --> 01:35:26,532
And I told one of my buddies,

1700
01:35:27,032 --> 01:35:28,192
what the fuck?

1701
01:35:29,492 --> 01:35:30,712
Like, if anyone,

1702
01:35:31,332 --> 01:35:33,532
we are the ones that should be saying something.

1703
01:35:33,912 --> 01:35:35,212
Why are you quiet?

1704
01:35:36,212 --> 01:35:37,052
And he goes,

1705
01:35:37,292 --> 01:35:38,572
I have a restaurant.

1706
01:35:39,572 --> 01:35:41,052
They just shut down

1707
01:35:41,052 --> 01:35:43,692
Mariana's restaurant because she allowed them

1708
01:35:43,692 --> 01:35:45,332
to sit there for a month.

1709
01:35:45,332 --> 01:35:46,432
She's broke, man.

1710
01:35:47,472 --> 01:35:49,252
I don't want to lose my restaurant.

1711
01:35:50,032 --> 01:35:52,712
And the other guy was like, I don't want to lose my farm.

1712
01:35:53,432 --> 01:35:55,072
I don't want to lose my this.

1713
01:35:55,152 --> 01:35:56,332
So they're in it.

1714
01:35:57,492 --> 01:36:02,332
You all become part of this parasitic thing.

1715
01:36:03,492 --> 01:36:05,252
They govern through fear.

1716
01:36:05,572 --> 01:36:12,492
And that's the other thing that I think Bitcoiners kind of brush away

1717
01:36:12,492 --> 01:36:20,632
is this idea of the monopoly on violence that a government has and the fear that it will instill

1718
01:36:20,632 --> 01:36:25,872
on you if they want to decide you're a target i know a lot of people say it's like they're not

1719
01:36:25,872 --> 01:36:32,132
gonna come after my bitcoin i'm never gonna give them my bitcoin i'm like man have you ever had a

1720
01:36:32,752 --> 01:36:38,172
swat team put a gun to your face and i'm not talking here where there's like a sound legal

1721
01:36:38,172 --> 01:36:44,592
system where you're going to take you to court we don't have that if somebody pops you in front of

1722
01:36:44,592 --> 01:36:51,612
your house venezuela there's no recourse good luck yeah you're popped that's it so in a place like

1723
01:36:51,612 --> 01:36:58,472
that when you have somebody come to your door and say no do you have some bitcoin we heard you have

1724
01:36:58,472 --> 01:37:02,812
some bitcoin here's the proof you don't want to give it to us here come here sweetie is that your

1725
01:37:02,812 --> 01:37:08,412
daughter come here sweetie i'm giving that bitcoin straight away you're immediately i'm like give me

1726
01:37:08,412 --> 01:37:13,732
your address right away here it is here's my wallet i've been robbed at gunpoint i grew up in

1727
01:37:13,732 --> 01:37:22,032
of course i've been robbed at gunpoint several times and not once have i considered not giving

1728
01:37:22,032 --> 01:37:30,572
them what they want you mean my bitcoin means nothing if i'm not around what i don't know what

1729
01:37:30,572 --> 01:37:33,452
a lot of these people are watching, right?

1730
01:37:33,452 --> 01:37:35,672
And it's also pretty cool to say something like,

1731
01:37:35,672 --> 01:37:36,732
you're not gonna get my big one,

1732
01:37:36,732 --> 01:37:48,767
I gonna take you to court when you in a place like America None of us have that luxury outside America Nobody has that luxury outside America So you popped or you give them the Bitcoin

1733
01:37:49,267 --> 01:37:50,227
It's that simple.

1734
01:37:51,067 --> 01:37:52,887
That's why people die trying to come here.

1735
01:37:54,387 --> 01:37:55,707
It's a worthwhile trade.

1736
01:37:55,967 --> 01:37:57,427
It's a well worthwhile trade.

1737
01:37:57,847 --> 01:37:59,127
It's absolutely worthwhile.

1738
01:37:59,947 --> 01:38:04,247
So what is the potential path then?

1739
01:38:04,247 --> 01:38:10,807
Is the idea of the population rising up against the government in any way likely,

1740
01:38:10,807 --> 01:38:14,967
like military coup, or do you think this thing just drags out for another decade and keeps going?

1741
01:38:15,847 --> 01:38:17,287
I think the...

1742
01:38:20,007 --> 01:38:27,367
At the risk of speculating, I think the most likely outcome is a military uprising.

1743
01:38:28,567 --> 01:38:30,887
It is a change of the guard and the monopoly of violence.

1744
01:38:30,887 --> 01:38:37,407
right like it's not it's not democracy that's holding him there it's the monopoly of violence

1745
01:38:37,407 --> 01:38:44,887
that's holding him there so the most likely way i see this change is a military uprising

1746
01:38:44,887 --> 01:38:52,387
that shows that a significant fraction of the venezuelan army is willing to die to get them out

1747
01:38:52,387 --> 01:38:57,327
because don't forget what you're asking these guys to do by the way there's like

1748
01:38:57,327 --> 01:39:00,747
bounties on all these guys' heads in the US, right?

1749
01:39:00,907 --> 01:39:02,747
So what you're telling them to do is,

1750
01:39:02,947 --> 01:39:04,107
here, let's hold an election.

1751
01:39:04,647 --> 01:39:07,527
And if you lose, you're going to jail forever.

1752
01:39:08,407 --> 01:39:09,747
That's what's happening to them.

1753
01:39:09,787 --> 01:39:10,787
If they lose the election,

1754
01:39:11,287 --> 01:39:11,747
what do you think?

1755
01:39:11,767 --> 01:39:12,647
They're going to lose the election?

1756
01:39:13,127 --> 01:39:14,447
They're never going to lose the election.

1757
01:39:15,107 --> 01:39:17,067
So they're always going to find any trick in the book

1758
01:39:17,067 --> 01:39:20,107
to keep the control and not go to jail.

1759
01:39:20,447 --> 01:39:21,707
So that's why, to me,

1760
01:39:21,707 --> 01:39:26,387
the only feasible way out is armed conflict.

1761
01:39:26,387 --> 01:39:30,527
within, not externally, from within.

1762
01:39:31,467 --> 01:39:33,307
You know, you could argue, is it supported?

1763
01:39:33,507 --> 01:39:34,507
Is it enhanced?

1764
01:39:34,607 --> 01:39:36,747
It will always be supported inevitably,

1765
01:39:36,987 --> 01:39:37,907
but that doesn't really matter.

1766
01:39:38,027 --> 01:39:40,687
It's not the financial support as people die.

1767
01:39:40,687 --> 01:39:43,027
Yeah, and now the other part of that is

1768
01:39:43,027 --> 01:39:48,687
because the social fabric of the country is so broken,

1769
01:39:49,347 --> 01:39:53,667
like all of the productive class has left Venezuela.

1770
01:39:53,667 --> 01:40:01,047
Everything that's there now is either a parasite or brainwashed or somehow in cahoots.

1771
01:40:01,447 --> 01:40:04,187
So it's really, it's not just toppling.

1772
01:40:04,667 --> 01:40:10,127
It's keeping the democratic base that's smart enough to not bring them back.

1773
01:40:10,227 --> 01:40:14,447
But I assume a lot of people would go back to Venezuela if it looked like there was real change.

1774
01:40:15,607 --> 01:40:16,887
I used to think that.

1775
01:40:17,827 --> 01:40:18,927
I don't anymore.

1776
01:40:19,787 --> 01:40:21,007
Why do I say that?

1777
01:40:21,007 --> 01:40:26,447
when you leave venezuela there's there's two types of people that leave venezuela

1778
01:40:26,447 --> 01:40:32,867
there are the people that leave venezuela and say i'm gonna make it out i'm gonna make it outside

1779
01:40:32,867 --> 01:40:37,667
of this country regardless because i know being there is a dead end right and they make it work

1780
01:40:37,667 --> 01:40:43,987
they will grind until they live they build the life they want abroad i will include myself in

1781
01:40:43,987 --> 01:40:50,687
that camp and a few others there's also another group of people that will go to the u.s get a

1782
01:40:50,687 --> 01:40:55,687
start working away, realize how hard it is

1783
01:40:55,687 --> 01:40:58,287
to actually be self-sustaining adult

1784
01:40:58,287 --> 01:41:00,687
in a place that doesn't give you free things.

1785
01:41:00,687 --> 01:41:02,687
And then they'll say things like,

1786
01:41:02,687 --> 01:41:04,687
my quality of life here sucks.

1787
01:41:04,687 --> 01:41:06,687
I don't have time to go to the beach.

1788
01:41:06,687 --> 01:41:08,687
I don't have time to na-na-na-na.

1789
01:41:08,687 --> 01:41:09,687
And then they go back.

1790
01:41:09,687 --> 01:41:11,687
So the people that are gonna go back,

1791
01:41:11,687 --> 01:41:12,687
like I'll give you an example.

1792
01:41:12,687 --> 01:41:14,687
And the people that can't cut it.

1793
01:41:14,687 --> 01:41:15,687
You're right.

1794
01:41:15,687 --> 01:41:16,687
You may, exactly.

1795
01:41:16,687 --> 01:41:18,687
The people you really want to go back.

1796
01:41:18,687 --> 01:41:19,687
Are not going back.

1797
01:41:19,687 --> 01:41:24,487
made it out they made it abroad what are they gonna why are they gonna roll the dice again

1798
01:41:24,487 --> 01:41:30,407
i'll go visit you know like we'll go visit we'll go help the rebuilding but

1799
01:41:30,407 --> 01:41:35,747
we're gonna wait for some certainty before you won't bring a dollar or my daughter or my son

1800
01:41:35,747 --> 01:41:42,367
like i'm gonna wait to have to see a lot of change to make me feel comfortable that we can go back

1801
01:41:42,367 --> 01:41:47,227
and set roots again like yes i want to rebuild yes i want to take the country back a hundred percent

1802
01:41:47,227 --> 01:41:53,427
But I also know that a lot of what I miss is not what that is today.

1803
01:41:53,927 --> 01:41:55,827
I miss a moment in time.

1804
01:41:55,987 --> 01:41:56,487
It's nostalgia.

1805
01:41:56,847 --> 01:41:57,127
Yes.

1806
01:41:57,287 --> 01:41:58,847
I miss a moment in time.

1807
01:42:00,387 --> 01:42:03,867
The country that I left is not the same country that's there today.

1808
01:42:03,967 --> 01:42:04,767
And it's never coming back.

1809
01:42:04,867 --> 01:42:10,067
I mean, you can say that about England in the early 2000s when I was growing up.

1810
01:42:10,087 --> 01:42:10,907
That's never coming back.

1811
01:42:11,347 --> 01:42:11,787
Exactly.

1812
01:42:11,927 --> 01:42:13,607
It's just a way more extreme example of that.

1813
01:42:14,027 --> 01:42:14,467
Exactly.

1814
01:42:14,467 --> 01:42:18,587
And so now there's big trade-offs, right?

1815
01:42:18,647 --> 01:42:20,007
Like, what if I'm wrong?

1816
01:42:20,167 --> 01:42:21,407
Like, well, what if I'm right?

1817
01:42:21,447 --> 01:42:22,167
And then what if I'm wrong?

1818
01:42:22,267 --> 01:42:24,527
Like, what if I'm right is, oh, great, we rebuild.

1819
01:42:24,847 --> 01:42:26,547
I was able to build a country.

1820
01:42:26,627 --> 01:42:27,767
I get this new sense of purpose.

1821
01:42:27,867 --> 01:42:28,627
I love this place.

1822
01:42:29,287 --> 01:42:30,007
But what if I'm wrong?

1823
01:42:31,087 --> 01:42:35,327
I brought all my assets back after wasting my life abroad to build all of this,

1824
01:42:35,367 --> 01:42:38,207
just to have some lunatic in a sombrero take it again?

1825
01:42:39,367 --> 01:42:42,547
Like, I'm not going to let that happen.

1826
01:42:42,547 --> 01:42:46,547
And that mindset is true for many people that have been successful abroad.

1827
01:42:46,547 --> 01:42:51,547
The only guys that are going to be the first ones on the plane there are the guys that are just like aching for a change.

1828
01:42:51,547 --> 01:42:56,547
Being out there has been so grueling and hard for them. They just never found a way.

1829
01:42:56,547 --> 01:43:08,802
And again I consider myself incredibly fortunate because I did my university abroad I had a network of friends and contacts that I could lean on when I had to build my professional life

1830
01:43:09,022 --> 01:43:14,202
So it's easy for me to say or easier for me to say, oh, yay, you know, I made it out.

1831
01:43:14,322 --> 01:43:22,842
But that's also because my parents were very brilliant and, you know, invested in me to be able to go do all these things.

1832
01:43:22,842 --> 01:43:27,702
but that's not to say most people are equally as prepared to have the opportunities that i've had

1833
01:43:27,702 --> 01:43:36,482
and so the sad reality is that immigration happens top to bottom right like there's a saying in

1834
01:43:36,482 --> 01:43:40,882
venezuela when the immigration crisis started the saying will goes the saying went the first ones

1835
01:43:40,882 --> 01:43:48,062
to leave leave on a plane they leave with investment visas student visas you know they they

1836
01:43:48,062 --> 01:43:50,682
They leave at a top notch.

1837
01:43:50,902 --> 01:43:52,242
You know, they take their pick.

1838
01:43:52,522 --> 01:43:54,522
You know, they leave with means and purpose.

1839
01:43:55,222 --> 01:44:02,102
The second group to leave are, you know, you leave with a work offer, you know, a little bit more of a humble beginning.

1840
01:44:02,542 --> 01:44:05,062
You know, you might have to save up to pay for the flight.

1841
01:44:05,282 --> 01:44:08,782
And when you get there, you might have to stay with a relative to kind of get off your feet.

1842
01:44:08,982 --> 01:44:10,482
That's like the second batch.

1843
01:44:11,622 --> 01:44:13,862
The third batch can't even afford a suitcase.

1844
01:44:13,862 --> 01:44:18,582
They're walking across the border and demanding social services no matter where they go.

1845
01:44:19,142 --> 01:44:23,882
So the sad part is like these first guys will never likely come back.

1846
01:44:24,702 --> 01:44:27,222
A decent chunk of the second ones will come back.

1847
01:44:27,562 --> 01:44:30,002
All of the bottom of the pyramid is going to be coming back.

1848
01:44:30,922 --> 01:44:37,262
And so can you rebuild the country you have without the most productive guys that were at the top?

1849
01:44:37,422 --> 01:44:38,002
Absolutely not.

1850
01:44:38,182 --> 01:44:39,042
Absolutely not.

1851
01:44:39,042 --> 01:44:49,102
and like people in capital are very risk adverse right like if you've already built wealth if you're

1852
01:44:49,102 --> 01:44:54,722
already successful somewhere else are you really going to come back to like the maybe

1853
01:44:54,722 --> 01:44:59,962
it's just a risk that you wouldn't be willing to take it's a very hard proposition i'm not saying

1854
01:44:59,962 --> 01:45:03,722
maybe i would do it listen like i have to see how everything happens like and nobody wants this place

1855
01:45:03,722 --> 01:45:08,282
to change more than i do i i was just having a chat with leopoldo like you know i started to

1856
01:45:08,282 --> 01:45:11,962
close with like Alex Latz and the Polo and Maria Corina and their team and everyone doing

1857
01:45:11,962 --> 01:45:13,142
work changed this thing.

1858
01:45:13,522 --> 01:45:17,542
And I commend them because if there's something that takes courage in this world is to be

1859
01:45:17,542 --> 01:45:18,582
a Latin American politician.

1860
01:45:19,202 --> 01:45:24,122
You have to be not just courageous, almost delusional to be a Latin American politician.

1861
01:45:24,242 --> 01:45:25,982
Like people say, oh, entrepreneurs are crazy.

1862
01:45:26,082 --> 01:45:27,762
I'm like, talk to a Latin politician.

1863
01:45:27,762 --> 01:45:30,802
You know, like that's balls.

1864
01:45:33,942 --> 01:45:35,142
They inspire me.

1865
01:45:35,142 --> 01:45:39,902
every time there's a venezuela election i tell myself i'm not going to get excited this time

1866
01:45:39,902 --> 01:45:46,242
every time i get excited i support i chant i cry i fucking send money i do whatever i can to help

1867
01:45:46,242 --> 01:45:51,202
and it always ends in the same result i don't think i'll ever stop getting excited i don't

1868
01:45:51,202 --> 01:46:00,322
think i'll ever stop trying to support it but i also um i try to check myself with this because

1869
01:46:00,322 --> 01:46:04,502
it's also one thing it's like i can make that decision now maybe my wife's smart enough to

1870
01:46:04,502 --> 01:46:10,182
make the decision now what type of life am i going to give my kids they're not making the decision

1871
01:46:10,182 --> 01:46:15,442
they're falling on top of mine and they're fine now they're in a great place i bust my ass off to

1872
01:46:15,442 --> 01:46:22,802
get to where we are today what if we go down there and something happens like is that is that the

1873
01:46:22,802 --> 01:46:28,022
place i want to leave them at is that where i want their network to be forged there's a lot of stuff

1874
01:46:28,022 --> 01:46:35,042
play and that's why i think it's so hard to think about if we just change it it'll all come back

1875
01:46:35,042 --> 01:46:38,902
i'll give you the example of what's happening in new york like new york just like just had an

1876
01:46:38,902 --> 01:46:44,302
election last night a lot of people are shocked yeah i'm not that shocked frankly but what's

1877
01:46:44,302 --> 01:46:49,082
going to happen in new york now most likely it's not just new york it's just using an example is

1878
01:46:49,082 --> 01:46:56,342
the people that he's going after i.e the guys that he wants to raise taxes on are in right now if you

1879
01:46:56,342 --> 01:47:00,162
word to Google, like I would welcome you if you go to Google right now and look Google Trends,

1880
01:47:00,462 --> 01:47:05,702
Florida real estate in the state of New York, I can almost guarantee you that those searches are

1881
01:47:05,702 --> 01:47:12,342
up through the roof. When Petro won, and I track this, I track this actually every time an

1882
01:47:12,342 --> 01:47:17,242
authoritarian wins. So when Petro won in Colombia, Petro's like the crazy left or center guy that

1883
01:47:17,242 --> 01:47:22,302
won in Colombia a few years back. I immediately went a week after and I saw what are the search

1884
01:47:22,302 --> 01:47:30,362
interest or trends for real estate in miami from colombia through the roof yeah vertical so what's

1885
01:47:30,362 --> 01:47:34,982
going to happen is like people are going to say okay well great you guys pick this guy rich people

1886
01:47:34,982 --> 01:47:40,982
leave see ya i'm gonna go move to florida uh maybe maybe we'll come back but then they'll build the

1887
01:47:40,982 --> 01:47:45,262
life in florida their kids will have their friends in florida their house is beautiful in florida

1888
01:47:45,262 --> 01:47:46,762
The weather's nice.

1889
01:47:46,762 --> 01:47:50,102
Oh, you know, Bloomberg's back in New York.

1890
01:47:50,102 --> 01:47:51,102
Should we go back?

1891
01:47:52,782 --> 01:47:53,622
We're already here.

1892
01:47:53,622 --> 01:47:54,462
It's pretty nice.

1893
01:47:54,462 --> 01:47:55,722
It's so beautiful.

1894
01:47:55,722 --> 01:47:57,362
My kids don't want to go back.

1895
01:47:57,362 --> 01:47:58,202
Yeah.

1896
01:47:58,202 --> 01:48:01,482
So it's like, it's not, that's the other thing.

1897
01:48:01,482 --> 01:48:03,042
Moving isn't easy.

1898
01:48:03,042 --> 01:48:04,962
It looks cool.

1899
01:48:04,962 --> 01:48:06,922
It look, you know, people think it's fun.

1900
01:48:06,922 --> 01:48:07,762
It is.

1901
01:48:07,762 --> 01:48:08,882
I've moved many more and many more times

1902
01:48:08,882 --> 01:48:11,422
than I thought I would in my life.

1903
01:48:11,422 --> 01:48:13,142
It's never easy when you have to bring

1904
01:48:13,142 --> 01:48:26,857
the whole shabazz with you especially as your kids get older very very difficult People want predictability routines like you value that

1905
01:48:26,857 --> 01:48:30,037
And so I think to change Venezuela,

1906
01:48:30,037 --> 01:48:31,917
we need some type of,

1907
01:48:33,357 --> 01:48:35,777
they need to lose the monopoly on violence,

1908
01:48:35,777 --> 01:48:39,157
one way or another, that's number one.

1909
01:48:39,157 --> 01:48:40,797
And then once that happens,

1910
01:48:40,797 --> 01:48:50,117
There needs to be almost like a path to bring everyone back, the productive class back.

1911
01:48:50,237 --> 01:48:51,757
And in some ways, that may even be harder.

1912
01:48:52,717 --> 01:48:53,697
That might be harder.

1913
01:48:54,797 --> 01:48:58,837
A lot of it, I mean, life's beautiful and unpredictable in so many ways.

1914
01:49:00,197 --> 01:49:07,817
I think I still have hope that, I don't know when, but at some point in my life, in my later years,

1915
01:49:07,817 --> 01:49:13,737
I will be sitting in Venezuela, retired or whatever, you know, might be much older by then.

1916
01:49:14,457 --> 01:49:21,737
And I'll be looking around and all the money that I'm hopefully going to make with Bitcoin and all the business and everything that I'm building.

1917
01:49:23,097 --> 01:49:34,777
I couldn't think of a more worthy goal in life than to bring democracy back and to bring free markets back to Venezuela.

1918
01:49:37,817 --> 01:49:44,537
because I just, I feel like it's better for,

1919
01:49:44,757 --> 01:49:46,777
not just Venezuela, it's better for the world.

1920
01:49:47,057 --> 01:49:49,677
Like, if I hadn't been able to leave,

1921
01:49:49,877 --> 01:49:51,457
if my brother hadn't been able to leave,

1922
01:49:52,617 --> 01:49:54,537
maybe there, I don't know if there would be a leaded.

1923
01:49:55,177 --> 01:49:56,157
Like, would there be a leaded?

1924
01:49:56,217 --> 01:49:56,577
I don't know.

1925
01:49:56,917 --> 01:49:58,437
Would any lender have survived in 2021?

1926
01:49:58,777 --> 01:49:59,217
I don't know.

1927
01:49:59,457 --> 01:50:00,957
Maybe it would have been a total collapse

1928
01:50:00,957 --> 01:50:03,437
of all lenders in 2021, right?

1929
01:50:03,437 --> 01:50:07,377
And so life, I love this movie, The Butterfly Effect.

1930
01:50:07,377 --> 01:50:10,957
You know, like little change here has massive implications across.

1931
01:50:11,237 --> 01:50:17,537
I think if we were able to bring the smart people in Venezuela out of this authoritarian regime,

1932
01:50:17,597 --> 01:50:22,257
the same people in North Korea and same with people in places like Russia, Ukraine.

1933
01:50:22,577 --> 01:50:27,377
Like right now you have brilliant people in conflict areas that are just rotting away.

1934
01:50:28,257 --> 01:50:30,617
All that potential is just sitting there.

1935
01:50:33,077 --> 01:50:33,557
Why?

1936
01:50:34,817 --> 01:50:37,317
You know, and that's also why, I mean, again,

1937
01:50:37,317 --> 01:50:38,577
I'm not allergic to politics.

1938
01:50:38,577 --> 01:50:41,397
I think some Bitcoiners are sort of, no, politics.

1939
01:50:41,577 --> 01:50:43,317
We're going to end the Fed, end this, end the government.

1940
01:50:43,417 --> 01:50:46,257
I'm like, I don't think we end every form of government.

1941
01:50:46,577 --> 01:50:49,477
In fact, I think we need to lean into the government to change it.

1942
01:50:49,597 --> 01:50:53,737
I don't think, I think Bitcoin is used to make government fair and more transparent,

1943
01:50:53,737 --> 01:50:55,317
but I don't think it replaces it.

1944
01:50:55,357 --> 01:50:56,817
I don't think it ever can replace it.

1945
01:50:57,617 --> 01:51:00,277
So I think we need to be, that's why I love coming to DC.

1946
01:51:00,677 --> 01:51:04,157
Because to me, I'm like, first of all, we were never welcome here until this year.

1947
01:51:04,837 --> 01:51:06,337
Now they want to talk to us.

1948
01:51:06,337 --> 01:51:08,477
we'd be foolish not to take that opportunity.

1949
01:51:08,817 --> 01:51:09,357
Be foolish.

1950
01:51:10,337 --> 01:51:10,957
And so again,

1951
01:51:11,237 --> 01:51:12,737
people might disagree with my take.

1952
01:51:13,277 --> 01:51:15,017
It's informed by some of my life experience.

1953
01:51:15,897 --> 01:51:17,857
I mean, it's a massive shame what's happening there.

1954
01:51:19,317 --> 01:51:19,757
Fuck.

1955
01:51:20,217 --> 01:51:21,197
I don't know what to say.

1956
01:51:21,617 --> 01:51:22,817
I think maybe we end it there.

1957
01:51:22,877 --> 01:51:24,317
That was an amazing interview.

1958
01:51:24,577 --> 01:51:25,057
Thank you.

1959
01:51:25,137 --> 01:51:25,857
No, thank you, man.

1960
01:51:25,897 --> 01:51:26,097
Listen.

1961
01:51:26,357 --> 01:51:28,177
I got goosebumps more than once during that.

1962
01:51:28,637 --> 01:51:29,137
I'm going to give you,

1963
01:51:29,257 --> 01:51:31,177
I want to end this off with a positive note

1964
01:51:31,177 --> 01:51:33,357
because I know maybe some Venezuelans

1965
01:51:33,357 --> 01:51:34,177
are listening to this

1966
01:51:34,177 --> 01:51:36,197
and feeling discouraged by what I just said.

1967
01:51:36,337 --> 01:51:38,397
that's the last thing I want.

1968
01:51:39,657 --> 01:51:42,137
I would like to say to the people listening to this

1969
01:51:42,137 --> 01:51:46,997
that what happened to me and my family,

1970
01:51:47,797 --> 01:51:49,617
you can do this too.

1971
01:51:50,317 --> 01:51:51,437
You can opt out.

1972
01:51:52,257 --> 01:51:54,717
Right now, there might not be a path of change internally.

1973
01:51:55,037 --> 01:51:56,297
There is a path out.

1974
01:51:57,757 --> 01:51:59,397
I gave everyone, or not, I gave,

1975
01:51:59,397 --> 01:52:02,357
use my story or our story as a blueprint.

1976
01:52:03,437 --> 01:52:05,357
And if anyone's listening and has questions,

1977
01:52:05,357 --> 01:52:11,117
message me. My DMs are open. My email is open too. I would love to help you think through how to get

1978
01:52:11,117 --> 01:52:19,637
freedom. Bitcoin enables you to do that. You can do it. Si se puede. Yes, you can.

1979
01:52:21,337 --> 01:52:26,417
It's so refreshing to do an interview where Bitcoin is talked about as freedom money again.

1980
01:52:27,557 --> 01:52:32,837
Bitcoin is freedom money. And I'm so sick of all this, just people only want to talk about

1981
01:52:32,837 --> 01:52:33,977
the financialization of freedom.

1982
01:52:34,097 --> 01:52:35,657
This is what Bitcoin actually does.

1983
01:52:36,517 --> 01:52:39,477
Without this, number wouldn't go up.

1984
01:52:39,797 --> 01:52:39,937
Yeah.

1985
01:52:40,197 --> 01:52:42,277
Number goes up because of what it does.

1986
01:52:43,337 --> 01:52:46,517
When you understand that, the price becomes irrelevant.

1987
01:52:46,917 --> 01:52:47,137
Yeah.

1988
01:52:47,377 --> 01:52:53,217
And I think that's why I love the work Alex Gladstein is doing,

1989
01:52:53,337 --> 01:52:54,677
the work the Human Rights Foundation is doing.

1990
01:52:54,737 --> 01:52:57,157
They asked me what my favorite Bitcoin conference is,

1991
01:52:57,237 --> 01:52:58,997
the Human Rights Freedom Forum in Oslo,

1992
01:52:58,997 --> 01:53:02,497
because you get to hear from people doing things

1993
01:53:02,497 --> 01:53:08,397
they put me and my story to shame with some of their stories i feel embarrassed when i'm listening

1994
01:53:08,397 --> 01:53:14,557
to some of their stories you think this is hardcore go talk to roya like roya will make you feel

1995
01:53:14,557 --> 01:53:22,797
like you are the like you have no courage next to that woman yeah so i'm i'm thank you for bringing

1996
01:53:22,797 --> 01:53:28,477
these stories out the light um and yeah man let's you know let's keep building freedom money let's

1997
01:53:28,477 --> 01:53:32,077
fucking go thank you maricho i really appreciate it that was great yeah my pleasure man