1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,560 How do you actually use all of the technologies that are available today to move value on the 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,140 internet to deliver money where people want it? 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:16,420 Now you can have the best product and it turns out it's built on an open network and it unlocks 4 00:00:16,420 --> 00:00:21,540 instantly the ability to move money, not only just, you know, within Spark and cross-chain 5 00:00:21,540 --> 00:00:27,100 and on Lightning and on Bitcoin L1, but also across all of the traditional, you know, payment 6 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:28,200 networks and Visa. 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:36,560 That's how all roads actually go to Bitcoin, is actually by leveraging the ability to offer an account that's both dollars and Bitcoin. 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:38,960 Then gradually, you'll use more and more Bitcoin. 9 00:00:39,380 --> 00:00:46,600 It's a cost center that's in the billions of dollars, and now you can flip that and make it a profit center net margin of billions of dollars, 10 00:00:46,780 --> 00:00:52,380 and also not be captive to a bunch of other networks that are leeching on your data. 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,640 And so the incentive is massive for these platforms to do this. 12 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,200 We think this will win. 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,660 Thank you. 14 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:04,240 I just saw, well, I was actually doing an interview when you made your announcement, 15 00:01:04,540 --> 00:01:06,540 but I caught it on the live stream afterwards. 16 00:01:06,980 --> 00:01:07,720 It's pretty big. 17 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:11,520 This is, I think this is a real game changer for Bitcoin in some ways. 18 00:01:12,020 --> 00:01:13,780 But I want to start from the start with you. 19 00:01:14,540 --> 00:01:17,940 Why did you decide to sort of focus your entire career on payments? 20 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,860 I think that, first of all, great to be back. 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:23,420 Thank you. 22 00:01:23,420 --> 00:01:34,680 I think that the reason I've been so maniacally obsessed with money movement and payments is because it's just not right. 23 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:37,140 And it feels utterly broken. 24 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:43,720 And it feels that many people have tried to fix the way that money moves around the world. 25 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,920 And everyone has failed, including myself previously. 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,180 and so I developed this kind of obsession 27 00:01:53,180 --> 00:01:57,720 with figuring out a way to make money move on the internet 28 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,480 like any other type of content 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,200 and that's it, it's been my focus 30 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,640 So when you say you failed before 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,100 I imagine you're talking about Libra and PayPal 32 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:11,640 well PayPal clearly is not a failure in terms of the company 33 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:13,560 but what do you mean by you failed? 34 00:02:14,620 --> 00:02:15,760 I feel like, I mean look 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:22,300 if you were to actually stop someone we're in vegas like if you're stopping someone on the strip 36 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:28,880 right now and they're from another country and you wanted to send them money um it wouldn't be 37 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,640 an easy thing you would see a brazilian person and they would be like okay i can give you my 38 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:40,360 pix key and you wouldn't know what to do with it yeah or you could find a european and they would 39 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:47,720 give you an iban and you wouldn't know what to do with it uh if you're here in america um i deal 40 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,760 with this personally on the in the business side because i live in australia and uh the sponsors i 41 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:58,120 think all the sponsors have a base in the us and so i obviously will invoice them with an option to 42 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,360 pay in bitcoin but they don't always take that option and i we you can make it work with 43 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,760 international routing and all that sort of stuff but i get crushed on sort of fees and exchange 44 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:15,240 rates like it's not and it takes days yeah and um and so and and you know many people are working in 45 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,960 the space are like oh but you can just pay uh everyone and anyone with a stable coin it works 46 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,720 fine right then the reality is most people you would meet today uh some of them would say yeah 47 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,280 fine just send me a stable coin to my wallet but most people won't right and they wouldn't even 48 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:35,960 know what a stable coin is and so the question is how do you actually use all of the technologies 49 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:41,640 that are available today to move value on the internet to deliver money where people want it. 50 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,320 And that's what we did today. I think with this announcement of Grid Global Accounts, 51 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,560 we've basically put together and stitched together all of the work that we've been focused on 52 00:03:54,440 --> 00:04:00,360 obsessively over the last four years to move money around the world on a platform that enables you to 53 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:05,720 input and output any kind of money, whether it's a fiat currency on a banking system, 54 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:11,080 Bitcoin, of course, or a stable coin, and just make it work for people and businesses. 55 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,040 So for anyone that didn't catch the announcement, what is GridGlobal Accounts? 56 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:24,040 So let's take a step back, right? So today, when you think about all of the different types of 57 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:31,720 content we have on the internet you have images you have text messages you have emails you have 58 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:37,720 all these things um and there's an app for every single one of those like if i need to send you 59 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,840 a photo there's like 15 different ways i can send you a photo yeah and i don't even need to ask you 60 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:49,640 if i have your phone number i can just send it it'll work um there's just no such thing for money 61 00:04:49,640 --> 00:05:07,060 Right. And today, if you're a platform, if you look at where the money originates and where people and businesses earn money, they earn money in a variety of different ways, but increasingly so they get paid by platforms. 62 00:05:07,060 --> 00:05:13,760 and you can be a host on airbnb you can be a driver on uber you can be a creator on instagram 63 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:22,040 or tiktok you are youtube uh and you get paid by those platforms and this becomes kind of your 64 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:27,520 financial nexus right like and so and and the way that those platforms today move money around 65 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,480 is you accumulate a bunch of money you have to wait until you get to a certain threshold for most 66 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,400 people. And then you get paid much later, not that the time you earn that money. And when you get paid, 67 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:43,900 the platform loses and you kind of lose too, because the platform basically pays you to your 68 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:50,460 bank account. And so the interest on that yield doesn't accrue to you or to the platform and goes 69 00:05:50,460 --> 00:05:57,320 back to the bank. The bank typically provides a pretty average service and everyone loses. 70 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:03,040 And so we wanted to go to the core of that problem and figure it out. 71 00:06:03,220 --> 00:06:22,240 And so what we built, and this couldn't have happened even a year ago, because you have to have a perfect alignment of stars to actually do this, which we now have, is basically a global dollar account product that lives on Spark. 72 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:28,120 and spark is our bitcoin l2 yep that supports stable coins natively and moves stable coins 73 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:34,940 virtually for free um and so it's an account that you can have that's branded to your platform 74 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:41,820 and your users your stakeholders can use that get paid in dollars and we'll soon add many other 75 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:46,800 currencies to make it a multi-currency account and then the minute you got money from one of 76 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,760 these platforms or you fund it yourself you can spend it in more ways than any account before its 77 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:57,640 time. So the first thing is we announced this morning a partnership with Visa to become a Visa 78 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:04,540 principal member, which is not a small deal. And that will allow us to issue great global accounts 79 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:12,080 based cards in 100 countries. So you receive money in this account. It's a new kind of embedded 80 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:17,660 wallet. So you can log in with Google, with like, you know, Apple, with the pass key. You don't need 81 00:07:17,660 --> 00:07:21,980 to worry about losing your seed phrase or your private key. That's a thing of the past. 82 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:29,280 And so it's a self-custodial Spark-based grid global account. You have dollars. Now you can 83 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,980 get a debit card and spend it at 175 million Visa merchants globally. 84 00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:37,620 And when you spend that, can you spend in dollars in Bitcoin? 85 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,940 Yes. Anything that has a balance in your account, whether it's Bitcoin or dollars or any other 86 00:07:42,940 --> 00:07:50,220 currency, you can pull from any of these to actually use your debit card. But that's not it. 87 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:56,780 That's not enough. The other thing we did is we also made those accounts compatible with LightSpark 88 00:07:56,780 --> 00:08:00,440 Grid, which is the product that we've been building for years, connecting into domestic 89 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:07,440 payment systems in 65 countries. So to take the example I gave you earlier, if you're a Brazilian 90 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,620 here, you can give your PixKey to someone who has one of these accounts and that person can pay you 91 00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:17,480 in real time in your Brazilian bank account in Brazilian reais. And that's true in 65 countries. 92 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,020 So now you have a balance. You can move that balance to your local bank account in your local 93 00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:27,600 country, in your local currency. You can pay anyone in the world instantly in real time. 94 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:34,380 And then, because we didn't think it was enough, we also added cross-chain support. So if you want 95 00:08:34,380 --> 00:08:41,240 to pay someone using USDT on Tron or USDC on Solana, you can do that too, because we wanted 96 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,820 to make sure that a dollar in a great global account can be a dollar anywhere. And so if you 97 00:08:46,820 --> 00:08:51,800 combine all of these capabilities, it's really, truly the most powerful global dollar account. 98 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:58,780 And it so happens to live on top of Bitcoin via Spark. And so it makes it an address that's both 99 00:08:58,780 --> 00:09:05,340 Bitcoin enabled with real Bitcoin, not wrapped Bitcoin, and dollars. And you can buy and sell 100 00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:08,080 Bitcoin, of course. And then the last part of it 101 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,280 is that we feel that agents are going to change the way that interfaces 102 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,500 are built and that you're not going to interact with apps and websites as much. 103 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,340 And so we made it agent ready, which 104 00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:25,300 means that I can actually delegate my accounts to an agent that can now 105 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:29,380 do all of those things on my behalf. And I have one running on my phone. I can show you later if you want. 106 00:09:29,380 --> 00:09:32,960 Yeah, definitely. And I'll be able to just say, hey, 107 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:38,520 you know, text, get your contact details, your bank details, and it'll settle in real time, 108 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:43,060 right? And it'll contact you via WhatsApp and get your details and pay you. 109 00:09:43,780 --> 00:09:47,280 If you already self-custody Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets. 110 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:52,160 Complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten. 111 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,360 Well, BitKey fixes that. BitKey is a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square 112 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,220 and Cash App. It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an 113 00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:08,040 intuitive, easy to use wallet with no C phrase to sweat over. It's simple, secure self-custody 114 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:14,360 without the stress. And time named Bitkey one of the best inventions of 2024. Get 20% off at 115 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:22,600 bitkey.world when you use the code WBD. That's B-I-T-K-E-Y.world and use the code WBD. The thing 116 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,100 that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage. 117 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,680 And this is where Anchor Watch comes in. With Anchor Watch, your Bitcoin is insured with your 118 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:35,880 own A-plus rated Lloyds of London insurance policy. And all Bitcoin is held in their time-locked 119 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,060 multi-sig vaults. So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is insured while not giving 120 00:10:40,060 --> 00:10:44,440 up custody. So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, wrench attacks, natural 121 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,860 disasters, or just your own silly mistakes, you're protected by AnchorWatch. Rates for fully insured 122 00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:55,760 custody start as low as 0.55% and are available for individual and commercial customers located 123 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,640 in the US. Speak to AnchorWatch for a quote and for more details about your security options and 124 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:07,100 coverage, visit anchorwatch.com today. That's anchorwatch.com. Do you want to pay less in taxes 125 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:11,780 and stack more Bitcoin? Of course you do. Well, by mining Bitcoin with Blockware, you can. 126 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:18,000 Under section 168k of the US tax code, Bitcoin mining servers qualify for 100% bonus depreciation. 127 00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:22,460 This means every dollar you spend on miners can directly offset your income in a single year. 128 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,200 And that's true for both business owners and W-2 earners. If you have $100,000 in ordinary income, 129 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,880 you can purchase $100,000 in miners and potentially offset your tax liability entirely. 130 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,900 Blockware's mining as a service does all the heavy lifting, they secure the rigs, 131 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,600 they source the low-cost power, and they handle all the day-to-day maintenance. 132 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,920 So you get to stack Bitcoin every single day while drastically shrinking your tax bill. 133 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:48,420 Get started today at blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD 134 00:11:48,420 --> 00:11:51,600 and use code WBD for $100 off your first miner. 135 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,420 That's blockwaresolutions.com forward slash WBD. 136 00:11:55,420 --> 00:12:00,900 Bitcoiners, as you know, with fiat money constantly debasing, wealth preservation isn't optional. 137 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,660 That's why I recommend Swan Bitcoin, a team of dedicated Bitcoiners who work with families 138 00:12:05,660 --> 00:12:10,680 and businesses to build and secure generational wealth with Bitcoin. Strong relationships with 139 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:15,120 clients are at the center of everything Swan does. A dedicated Swan private wealth representative, 140 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,900 which is a real person that you can text and call, will help you build a Bitcoin wealth strategy 141 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:24,800 using Swan's comprehensive platform of Bitcoin services, including tax advantage retirement 142 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,780 accounts, advanced Bitcoin cold storage using collaborative self-custody, inheritance planning 143 00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:34,660 with both trust and entity accounts, tax loss harvesting, asset-backed loans, and more. 144 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,160 SWAN have helped over 100,000 clients since 2020. And if you're serious about acquiring and securing 145 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:47,760 Bitcoin, I recommend SWAN. Meet the team at swan.com forward slash WBD, which is swan.com 146 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,840 forward slash WBD. I mean, there's so much there that I want to ask you about, but let's start 147 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,680 you said this wasn't possible a year ago. 148 00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:55,880 Stars had to align. 149 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:57,920 What had to happen to allow you to do this? 150 00:12:58,140 --> 00:12:59,440 So it's really four things. 151 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,980 The first thing is the regulation. 152 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:07,240 So if you want any of these big platforms, 153 00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:08,560 those global platforms, 154 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,260 to be able to launch these things, 155 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:14,240 they have to do it from a place of certainty 156 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,660 from a regulatory standpoint. 157 00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:17,160 And we didn't have that. 158 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:17,880 And now we do. 159 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:20,520 Like we have the Genius Act in the US. 160 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:21,780 We have MICA in Europe. 161 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:24,260 We have similar legislation almost everywhere. 162 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:30,560 So now you can actually launch your own stablecoin or use stablecoins and not worry about that. 163 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,620 So it basically made stablecoin real money. 164 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:44,060 I've got a question on that, actually, because like you say, these were really stablecoin tokenization bills that passed rather than anything to do with Bitcoin. 165 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,640 Do you think Bitcoin's out of the woods in terms of regulatory clarity as well? 166 00:13:47,780 --> 00:13:49,340 Yeah, I do think so. 167 00:13:49,340 --> 00:14:07,800 And we can talk about that after, but I had this whole schizophrenic relationship with stablecoins until it clicked that actually stablecoins was the best thing ever for Bitcoin adoption. 168 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,020 And we can go down that rabbit hole in a bit. 169 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,280 But anyways, so now stablecoins can be used. 170 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:28,837 So that part one And I think Bitcoin regulation is clear as well Part two is embedded wallets like really good embedded wallets And we seen that like you know companies whether it like you know 171 00:14:29,278 --> 00:14:37,278 turnkey or privy, they've done a really, really amazing job at making those accounts, those 172 00:14:37,278 --> 00:14:42,878 wallets actually usable by anyone without fearing losing your funds, which I think is like a massive 173 00:14:42,878 --> 00:14:51,738 step, which is absolutely a prerequisite. The third step was we needed a network, in this case, 174 00:14:51,778 --> 00:14:56,778 on top of Bitcoin that could support stablecoins natively, which Spark does really, really well and 175 00:14:56,778 --> 00:15:02,658 now has massive reach. It's in the Thether wallet, it's in WDK, it's in all of the Bitcoin wallets 176 00:15:02,658 --> 00:15:12,317 you use now. And that's really, really also a prerequisite. And then the fourth aspect is really 177 00:15:12,317 --> 00:15:20,358 the rise of stablecoin backed debit cards, which the networks and the banks have now been leaning 178 00:15:20,358 --> 00:15:25,918 on a lot more, which again, wasn't possible before. So if you combine all of these capabilities, 179 00:15:25,918 --> 00:15:30,798 plus the work that we've done over the last four years connecting to 65 countries, domestic real 180 00:15:30,798 --> 00:15:35,238 time payment systems, and you bring it all together in a product, that's great global accounts. 181 00:15:35,817 --> 00:15:40,558 So this is not an actual app that people are going to download from the app store, right? This is 182 00:15:40,558 --> 00:15:42,878 like the infrastructure, the plumbing behind the scenes. 183 00:15:42,918 --> 00:15:43,378 Is that right? 184 00:15:43,878 --> 00:15:48,858 So it's basically, it's not an app because, I mean, I have an app, 185 00:15:49,098 --> 00:15:51,998 but that's, you know, it's a wallet that's called Bread 186 00:15:51,998 --> 00:15:53,678 that's built on top of this thing. 187 00:15:53,738 --> 00:15:56,738 That's like, you know, the first wallet that will hit the app store, 188 00:15:56,837 --> 00:15:57,558 I think, this week. 189 00:15:59,038 --> 00:16:02,577 And that team did a really good job at like building a best-in-class 190 00:16:02,577 --> 00:16:06,978 dual pocket dollar Bitcoin wallet. 191 00:16:06,978 --> 00:16:10,337 And then they were kind enough to share the source code with us 192 00:16:10,337 --> 00:16:15,518 So we can add agent delegation and all of these things and play with that in a real product rather than a prototype. 193 00:16:16,598 --> 00:16:21,298 And so you will experience this in an app or on a website. 194 00:16:22,817 --> 00:16:25,398 But we're not consumer facing. 195 00:16:25,697 --> 00:16:27,577 So we're like, we could have done it, by the way. 196 00:16:27,998 --> 00:16:33,758 And I said this on stage earlier because like I'm tempted, like, you know, it's such a good product. 197 00:16:33,878 --> 00:16:36,278 So I'm really tempted to launch it myself. 198 00:16:36,498 --> 00:16:36,618 Right. 199 00:16:36,678 --> 00:16:39,618 And it's like, hey, the world needs like an account like this. 200 00:16:39,658 --> 00:16:40,278 You would use it. 201 00:16:40,337 --> 00:16:41,337 Yeah, I absolutely would use it. 202 00:16:41,558 --> 00:16:42,758 Like everyone would use it. 203 00:16:43,298 --> 00:16:45,138 And so it's really tempting. 204 00:16:45,337 --> 00:16:51,778 But like, you know, I feel really passionate about like this idea of building the best network for money. 205 00:16:51,978 --> 00:16:58,138 And if you want to do that, then you need to empower the platforms that have the reach to actually go and build on their own. 206 00:16:58,298 --> 00:16:59,957 And so that's the route we've chosen. 207 00:16:59,957 --> 00:17:03,957 So obviously you've experienced at PayPal and then at Facebook with Libra. 208 00:17:04,717 --> 00:17:08,318 And we talked about why you think you maybe failed there. 209 00:17:09,118 --> 00:17:10,957 This is obviously a better solution, 210 00:17:11,338 --> 00:17:13,638 but PayPal has a huge network effect. 211 00:17:13,778 --> 00:17:14,898 How do you beat them? 212 00:17:15,418 --> 00:17:17,258 Well, I mean, PayPal's network is closed. 213 00:17:17,658 --> 00:17:17,957 Yes. 214 00:17:18,717 --> 00:17:19,998 But everyone knows of PayPal. 215 00:17:20,197 --> 00:17:22,217 Everyone has probably interacted with it at some point. 216 00:17:22,358 --> 00:17:23,498 They've got a big user base. 217 00:17:23,618 --> 00:17:24,898 How do you catch them? 218 00:17:24,957 --> 00:17:27,778 I think you just have to build a better product, right? 219 00:17:27,778 --> 00:17:30,878 And I think I have to give a lot of kudos 220 00:17:30,878 --> 00:17:35,078 to the block people building Cash App 221 00:17:35,078 --> 00:17:36,118 and building Square 222 00:17:36,118 --> 00:17:40,498 because they have their own proprietary product, 223 00:17:40,618 --> 00:17:43,658 but they're making it ultra open. 224 00:17:44,138 --> 00:17:46,818 It's like the bread app that I was telling you about 225 00:17:46,818 --> 00:17:49,178 or Tether Wallet can now, 226 00:17:49,838 --> 00:17:50,797 if you have one of these, 227 00:17:50,918 --> 00:17:54,758 you'll be able to go to a square coffee shop 228 00:17:54,758 --> 00:17:55,638 and tap to pay. 229 00:17:55,838 --> 00:17:57,658 It's wild when you think about it, right? 230 00:17:58,158 --> 00:18:00,057 It's a totally open network 231 00:18:00,057 --> 00:18:01,598 because it lives on top of Bitcoin. 232 00:18:02,457 --> 00:18:04,258 And we think this will win 233 00:18:04,258 --> 00:18:11,918 Because ultimately, when you build on open standards like the internet, like, you know, AOL or CompuServe didn't win because it was closed. 234 00:18:12,457 --> 00:18:22,118 And so the problem and why it didn't happen yet is because those products that were open were far worse than the closed products. 235 00:18:22,378 --> 00:18:22,498 Yeah. 236 00:18:22,977 --> 00:18:24,518 And they don't have to be anymore. 237 00:18:24,878 --> 00:18:26,938 And, you know, Grid Global Accounts is a great example of that. 238 00:18:26,998 --> 00:18:29,758 It's much better than any dollar account you can ever have. 239 00:18:29,818 --> 00:18:31,758 Like, you know, you could ever have until now. 240 00:18:31,758 --> 00:18:34,078 And so now you can have the best product. 241 00:18:34,278 --> 00:18:43,697 And it turns out it's built on an open network that enables all builders to actually add value to the overall value that the network provides to every endpoint on it. 242 00:18:43,918 --> 00:18:45,598 So it's just great time. 243 00:18:45,838 --> 00:18:51,678 The really cool thing about this is I've been waiting for a Bitcoin-friendly bank to try and offer me a product like this, 244 00:18:51,697 --> 00:18:58,658 where I could have my Australian dollar account, maybe a US dollar account, and a Bitcoin account in there. 245 00:18:59,297 --> 00:19:03,918 But this has gone, you've completely circumvented the banks and just built it, which is awesome. 246 00:19:05,418 --> 00:19:06,678 Tell me how it works a little bit. 247 00:19:06,717 --> 00:19:11,918 Because if I choose to pay in Bitcoin and I take my Visa card in and I tap to pay, what's happening behind the scenes there? 248 00:19:11,957 --> 00:19:15,138 Are you doing a swap for like Bitcoin, stablecoin, and then paying the merchant? 249 00:19:15,878 --> 00:19:16,018 Yeah. 250 00:19:16,098 --> 00:19:21,818 So basically, I mean, the merchant piece is completely outside of our view, right? 251 00:19:21,818 --> 00:19:31,378 It's like Visa is now building merchant settlement for debit card and credit card payments and stable coins, but that's on their side, the acquirer. 252 00:19:32,098 --> 00:19:39,178 What we do on our side is deliver the dollar, so to speak, at the issuer, like as an issuer. 253 00:19:40,237 --> 00:19:46,158 And then like whatever the arrangement is between the merchant and the acquirer, that's like their business. 254 00:19:46,297 --> 00:19:49,838 So if they are receiving money in their local currency, that's what's going to happen. 255 00:19:50,678 --> 00:19:54,297 And so the merchant always gets paid in whatever currency they want. 256 00:19:54,538 --> 00:20:02,318 And the way that it works is basically that you have this wallet that you authorize a card to pull from with limits that you can set. 257 00:20:02,598 --> 00:20:09,638 And then whenever you make a payment, it can pull from either your Bitcoin balance or your dollar balance or your other currencies soon. 258 00:20:10,358 --> 00:20:15,158 And when you say this product's sort of entirely built on Bitcoin, can you just walk through what you mean by that? 259 00:20:15,418 --> 00:20:16,578 It's all built on Spark. 260 00:20:16,578 --> 00:20:19,938 So basically, a grid global account is a Spark wallet. 261 00:20:20,717 --> 00:20:26,678 And it comes with a bunch of bells and whistles on top of just being a Spark wallet, which 262 00:20:26,678 --> 00:20:33,278 is like the debit card rails, the integration with the grid capabilities to move money around 263 00:20:33,278 --> 00:20:36,557 locally and globally on traditional payment networks. 264 00:20:37,378 --> 00:20:38,898 That's the difference, right? 265 00:20:39,258 --> 00:20:45,358 And so what it needs from having just a Spark wallet is like the ability for people to, 266 00:20:45,358 --> 00:20:50,078 like if they want to interact with a debit card or with traditional payment rails, 267 00:20:50,457 --> 00:20:56,138 they can KYB or KYC, depending if they're a business or a person. And from that point on, 268 00:20:56,178 --> 00:21:01,998 it unlocks instantly the ability to move money, not only just within Spark and cross-chain and 269 00:21:01,998 --> 00:21:08,838 on Lightning and on Bitcoin L1, but also across all of the traditional payment networks and Visa. 270 00:21:09,318 --> 00:21:13,138 Okay. I want to dig into something you mentioned just briefly a little earlier. You were talking 271 00:21:13,138 --> 00:21:16,578 about this kind of like gig economy that's cropped up where people are getting paid from 272 00:21:16,578 --> 00:21:21,758 YouTube's TikToks. And one of the issues you said in there was that like the platform aren't 273 00:21:21,758 --> 00:21:27,518 collecting interest that you're not, like this money's kind of like in limbo. Is interest something 274 00:21:27,518 --> 00:21:33,038 that you will be able to do at some point? So the way that this works is, and the way we 275 00:21:33,038 --> 00:21:39,998 recommend it to platforms is they can issue their own stable coins. And I'll expand on why this is 276 00:21:39,998 --> 00:21:46,178 actually possible because that's also a thing right we used to be in a world where if you 277 00:21:46,178 --> 00:21:52,078 don't have enough liquidity or network effects actually doing your own stable coin was a bad 278 00:21:52,078 --> 00:21:57,957 idea because you couldn't use it anywhere yeah um and so then it's like you know useless yeah 279 00:21:57,957 --> 00:22:05,518 and because we've made the account fungible and and compatible with all of the other stable coins 280 00:22:05,518 --> 00:22:09,438 and all of the other wallets and all of the other chains, it doesn't matter now. 281 00:22:09,438 --> 00:22:18,457 Because if you're receiving like your own coin, your own stable coin in, you know, I 282 00:22:18,457 --> 00:22:25,258 don't know, Nigeria, and you want to pay someone who has a Tron wallet and is using USDT, you 283 00:22:25,258 --> 00:22:25,797 can do that. 284 00:22:26,278 --> 00:22:33,358 So the liquidity problem we've basically erased by making those balances fungible and enabling 285 00:22:33,358 --> 00:22:41,278 bridges and other atomic swap platforms to actually exist on top of Spark. So what we advise 286 00:22:41,278 --> 00:22:46,838 platforms is launch your own stablecoin. We'll help you do that. And you'll earn interest because 287 00:22:46,838 --> 00:22:53,118 it's yours. And then in the US, there's a lot of debate whether you can actually pay interest to 288 00:22:53,118 --> 00:22:57,498 holders or not. But outside of the US, that's not a problem in many countries. So you can do that if 289 00:22:57,498 --> 00:23:00,957 you want. Because in the Genius Act, they said no interest on stablecoins, right? I mean, that's 290 00:23:00,957 --> 00:23:08,758 more the clarity of clarity. Sorry. Yeah. Uh, too many, but, but yeah, so, so in the U S it'll be 291 00:23:08,758 --> 00:23:13,217 more difficult to do that, but internationally you can definitely do that. Yeah. And typically 292 00:23:13,217 --> 00:23:17,858 like, I mean, of course this is a much more powerful accounts than a normal bank account 293 00:23:17,858 --> 00:23:23,697 for payments in the U S. So we expect a lot of U S people and businesses to use it just for the 294 00:23:23,697 --> 00:23:29,078 purpose of sending and receiving money. Um, but typically if a platform is paying someone in the 295 00:23:29,078 --> 00:23:33,258 US, and it's a US-based platform, that's where they have the least friction. 296 00:23:33,898 --> 00:23:36,658 Where they have the most friction is actually sending money internationally. 297 00:23:36,658 --> 00:23:40,457 And for those, they can actually distribute 298 00:23:40,457 --> 00:23:44,737 yield if that's what they want to do. And if they want to keep it, 299 00:23:44,778 --> 00:23:48,618 they can keep it. That's their choice and let the market play out. But at least they 300 00:23:48,618 --> 00:23:52,838 keep it versus I'm pushing it to, I don't know, a Spanish 301 00:23:52,838 --> 00:23:56,538 bank, and then it's black hole for 302 00:23:56,538 --> 00:23:59,057 me, the platform, and for my user. 303 00:24:00,678 --> 00:24:03,798 And more than Blackhold from a revenue standpoint, 304 00:24:04,717 --> 00:24:08,538 one of the things that no one talks about is the fact that if you're 305 00:24:08,538 --> 00:24:12,477 connecting and if you're basically a tenant of someone else's network and you're 306 00:24:12,477 --> 00:24:16,758 pushing to all of the banks at the edges, you also share all of the data, 307 00:24:16,758 --> 00:24:20,518 all of your data. And the data was maybe 308 00:24:20,518 --> 00:24:24,618 kind of a cost of doing business, sharing all of the data that will enable those businesses to actually 309 00:24:24,618 --> 00:24:29,737 build businesses off the back of the work that you've done to spin up that platform and generate 310 00:24:29,737 --> 00:24:37,098 product market fit and economic impact. But in the age of AI, it's like negligence to let everyone 311 00:24:37,098 --> 00:24:43,977 leech on your data and build products. And if you do that, then you control your own data 312 00:24:43,977 --> 00:24:50,278 and you control your own economics. And it changes the game completely. 313 00:24:50,578 --> 00:24:52,197 So you're not collecting data on any of this? 314 00:24:52,197 --> 00:24:53,957 No, because it's a self-custodial watt. 315 00:24:53,957 --> 00:24:54,578 That's awesome. 316 00:24:55,078 --> 00:24:57,658 Like in the stack of Bitcoin wallets that I use, 317 00:24:57,778 --> 00:24:59,877 I have like my spending wallet, my Lightning wallet, 318 00:24:59,957 --> 00:25:02,557 which, you know, I might have like up to $1,000, 319 00:25:02,778 --> 00:25:03,318 something in it. 320 00:25:03,578 --> 00:25:04,298 And then- 321 00:25:04,298 --> 00:25:05,318 Which one do you use? 322 00:25:05,398 --> 00:25:05,758 What's your favorite? 323 00:25:05,778 --> 00:25:07,038 I tend to use Phoenix the most. 324 00:25:07,118 --> 00:25:07,298 Okay. 325 00:25:07,438 --> 00:25:08,217 I like Phoenix. 326 00:25:08,418 --> 00:25:10,798 And then on top of that, 327 00:25:10,858 --> 00:25:12,977 like then I really go to like proper cold storage Bitcoin. 328 00:25:13,197 --> 00:25:14,898 And again, even levels in that. 329 00:25:15,377 --> 00:25:17,377 And I think really the way people have looked 330 00:25:17,377 --> 00:25:19,638 at Bitcoin wallets so far is that your Lightning wallet 331 00:25:19,638 --> 00:25:20,858 should only have a little bit of money in. 332 00:25:20,957 --> 00:25:23,798 You don't want to maybe put tens of thousands 333 00:25:23,798 --> 00:25:25,338 of dollars in a Lightning wallet that's on your phone. 334 00:25:25,717 --> 00:25:27,377 Where does this fit? 335 00:25:27,638 --> 00:25:30,578 How big do you think accounts should or could be on this? 336 00:25:30,598 --> 00:25:31,338 It doesn't matter. 337 00:25:31,758 --> 00:25:33,578 So this is the beauty with Spark. 338 00:25:33,818 --> 00:25:35,957 And we spent so much time doing that. 339 00:25:36,217 --> 00:25:39,977 It's like if you opened a Tether wallet, which they've done a really good job. 340 00:25:40,078 --> 00:25:42,178 It's so clean and so easy to use. 341 00:25:42,818 --> 00:25:45,938 And you have USDT on a variety of different chains. 342 00:25:45,938 --> 00:25:51,358 And you have Bitcoin on L1, on Lightning, and on Spark. 343 00:25:51,358 --> 00:25:54,557 and all of the Bitcoin piece is on Spark, basically. 344 00:25:54,778 --> 00:25:55,538 It's running on Spark. 345 00:25:55,918 --> 00:25:57,197 And it doesn't matter. 346 00:25:57,398 --> 00:26:00,538 It's like, it doesn't matter where you hold it as a user. 347 00:26:01,477 --> 00:26:03,318 It's just taken care of for you. 348 00:26:03,418 --> 00:26:05,818 So you'd never have to actually open channels 349 00:26:05,818 --> 00:26:07,858 and park liquidity and do all of these things. 350 00:26:07,898 --> 00:26:08,638 It'll just work. 351 00:26:09,158 --> 00:26:12,737 And I think ultimately that was something 352 00:26:12,737 --> 00:26:14,838 that was needed for a mass market adoption 353 00:26:14,838 --> 00:26:16,717 because like, you know, mass market 354 00:26:16,717 --> 00:26:19,398 is not going to think about where should I keep stuff 355 00:26:19,398 --> 00:26:20,118 and how should I keep. 356 00:26:20,118 --> 00:26:21,098 They're never going to be balancing channels. 357 00:26:21,098 --> 00:26:24,178 So you have a fad balance in an account that's actually safe. 358 00:26:25,098 --> 00:26:29,998 And you cannot lose the seed phrase or any of that. 359 00:26:31,377 --> 00:26:35,278 And you just use it for everyday purchases and payments. 360 00:26:35,457 --> 00:26:36,498 I want to dig into that a bit more. 361 00:26:36,578 --> 00:26:39,318 When you say it's actually safe, how is it secured? 362 00:26:39,998 --> 00:26:42,457 So today, there are two different models. 363 00:26:42,717 --> 00:26:45,678 But if you look at the way Turnkey does it, 364 00:26:46,258 --> 00:26:50,258 so they basically split the secrets in, I think, three parts 365 00:26:50,258 --> 00:26:52,957 and trusted execution environments, basically. 366 00:26:53,237 --> 00:26:54,638 So secure enclaves. 367 00:26:56,138 --> 00:26:59,418 And the beauty is basically that you can use 368 00:26:59,418 --> 00:27:01,217 a more traditional login, 369 00:27:01,758 --> 00:27:04,217 which means that it's mass market. 370 00:27:04,377 --> 00:27:06,158 So you can use Google to log in 371 00:27:06,158 --> 00:27:09,578 or you can use a passkey, which I would recommend. 372 00:27:10,057 --> 00:27:12,798 And so then you have a passkey that's securely stored 373 00:27:12,798 --> 00:27:14,918 either on your device in a secure element 374 00:27:14,918 --> 00:27:17,618 and then the secrets that are in three different parts 375 00:27:17,618 --> 00:27:19,038 that can only be reassembled 376 00:27:19,038 --> 00:27:22,697 when you log in with a passkey, which is super secure and easy. 377 00:27:23,858 --> 00:27:27,138 And to the extent that you don't put your passkey in a hardware 378 00:27:27,138 --> 00:27:31,178 key that you lose, then you're fine. And most 379 00:27:31,178 --> 00:27:35,398 people will actually just use a password manager and use a passkey 380 00:27:35,398 --> 00:27:39,197 that they store in their password manager or log in with Google or 381 00:27:39,197 --> 00:27:43,258 with Apple or with their phone number. The nice thing with 382 00:27:43,258 --> 00:27:47,178 this is that the platforms themselves can offer 383 00:27:47,178 --> 00:27:53,057 their own login that you're already using for the platform and extend the capabilities of 384 00:27:53,057 --> 00:27:58,758 your account. Like, let's say that YouTube were to do that. I'm riffing. You could have a YouTube 385 00:27:58,758 --> 00:28:03,377 money account. And basically your Google account that you use to publish your videos on YouTube 386 00:28:03,377 --> 00:28:09,158 becomes like your login to your YouTube money account or Google money account. And you would 387 00:28:09,158 --> 00:28:12,998 receive that money and you would have a debit card and you can move that money in real time to your 388 00:28:12,998 --> 00:28:17,898 bank account in Australia 24-7, even on a Sunday at 2 a.m., if that's what you need, 389 00:28:18,557 --> 00:28:23,298 or move it to a stablecoin on any chain, and you would totally use that, right? 390 00:28:23,697 --> 00:28:28,098 I think it's really exciting. And one of the things I love about this, alongside the stuff that 391 00:28:28,098 --> 00:28:32,938 Cash App and Square have been doing and Strike have been pushing this, is that it feels like 392 00:28:32,938 --> 00:28:36,237 we're moving into the era where Bitcoin is actually going to be used as money properly. 393 00:28:36,538 --> 00:28:46,635 Yes Because for so long the narrative has been store of value but Bitcoin was always destined to be money as well Yes Do you think this is the starting point Yes 394 00:28:46,855 --> 00:28:50,875 And actually, now let me close the full loop of the stablecoin stuff. 395 00:28:51,695 --> 00:28:59,955 I think the interesting thing with the stablecoin piece, it's actually a pretty profound realization that I had. 396 00:28:59,955 --> 00:29:06,775 and I was with Miles Sutter earlier from Cash App and I gave him credit for that 397 00:29:06,775 --> 00:29:13,395 because when they announced that Cash App was actually going to do USDC on Solana I'm like 398 00:29:13,395 --> 00:29:17,615 what in the world what like you're the most Bitcoin forward company what are you doing 399 00:29:17,615 --> 00:29:23,155 and I was in the middle of my own like schizophrenic journey with stable coins 400 00:29:23,155 --> 00:29:26,935 and then I'm like, no, wait a minute. 401 00:29:27,075 --> 00:29:28,335 He's right. They're right. 402 00:29:29,095 --> 00:29:33,955 They need to consider that stable coins on other chains 403 00:29:33,955 --> 00:29:36,395 are like fiat payment networks. 404 00:29:36,595 --> 00:29:40,455 It's like, why do I integrate with like SEPA in Europe 405 00:29:40,455 --> 00:29:42,015 and I'm fine with that 406 00:29:42,015 --> 00:29:45,795 and I don't integrate with Solana for stable coins? 407 00:29:46,095 --> 00:29:46,855 It makes no sense. 408 00:29:46,855 --> 00:29:51,775 It was like an ideological mental trap. 409 00:29:51,775 --> 00:29:55,835 and so I'm like no they're actually totally right 410 00:29:55,835 --> 00:29:59,915 and then we went full tilt so with Grid we went like really full tilt 411 00:29:59,915 --> 00:30:02,555 like we support all the chains and all the stable coins 412 00:30:02,555 --> 00:30:07,795 and then we went even deeper with Grid Global Accounts because we made it 413 00:30:07,795 --> 00:30:11,955 compatible with all of the networks and so now what that 414 00:30:11,955 --> 00:30:16,135 does is it gives you an account and a platform that you want to use 415 00:30:16,135 --> 00:30:19,935 because you can actually make your money move to wherever you 416 00:30:19,935 --> 00:30:25,615 want it to move. And the account that is the most connected ends up being a Bitcoin account, 417 00:30:25,715 --> 00:30:31,875 right? Because it's a Spark wallet. And so that's how all roads actually go to Bitcoin, 418 00:30:31,875 --> 00:30:36,795 is actually by leveraging the ability to offer an account that's both dollars and Bitcoin. 419 00:30:37,515 --> 00:30:43,075 And if you don't have the dollar, then Bitcoin is not as valuable. But if you have dollar and 420 00:30:43,075 --> 00:30:47,935 Bitcoin, then gradually you'll use more and more Bitcoin. And if it lives on the same address, 421 00:30:47,935 --> 00:30:53,255 then... So that's the reason that you think that stablecoin proliferation will increase Bitcoin 422 00:30:53,255 --> 00:30:57,295 adoption, just because just from almost proximity, like they're in the same account. And at some 423 00:30:57,295 --> 00:31:00,235 point people might start playing around with Bitcoin and seeing what it could do, learning 424 00:31:00,235 --> 00:31:08,455 about it. Exactly. Interesting. Because do you see any problem with like the stablecoin takeover 425 00:31:08,455 --> 00:31:13,095 of the, like any person living in a high inflation country is going to choose the stablecoin over 426 00:31:13,095 --> 00:31:17,615 their local fiat currency. Like it makes sense. Yeah. I mean, or Bitcoin, like, you know, 427 00:31:17,615 --> 00:31:18,415 it's kind of interesting. 428 00:31:19,955 --> 00:31:21,295 And let me get there 429 00:31:21,295 --> 00:31:21,815 in a sec, 430 00:31:21,875 --> 00:31:22,315 but like, you know, 431 00:31:22,315 --> 00:31:24,135 just back to the square thing, 432 00:31:24,255 --> 00:31:24,755 like, you know, 433 00:31:25,235 --> 00:31:26,315 so now you have an account 434 00:31:26,315 --> 00:31:28,055 and you have a stable coin 435 00:31:28,055 --> 00:31:29,215 that could be on any chain. 436 00:31:29,315 --> 00:31:29,495 Yeah. 437 00:31:29,975 --> 00:31:31,395 But now we can swap it 438 00:31:31,395 --> 00:31:33,215 and pay at a square merchant 439 00:31:33,215 --> 00:31:34,735 and the rails are Bitcoin. 440 00:31:35,335 --> 00:31:37,415 So the open network 441 00:31:37,415 --> 00:31:39,255 that moves like the TCP IP packets 442 00:31:39,255 --> 00:31:40,835 for money behind the scenes here 443 00:31:40,835 --> 00:31:42,435 is Bitcoin. 444 00:31:42,835 --> 00:31:43,615 And so that's amazing. 445 00:31:43,695 --> 00:31:45,735 Like it's like at both the level of, 446 00:31:46,075 --> 00:31:47,215 like now I'm exposed to it 447 00:31:47,215 --> 00:31:52,175 because it's in my wallet and I can buy it, I can sell it and I can use it. But also when I'm paying 448 00:31:52,175 --> 00:31:59,875 on a network for my coffee at a store, the rails are Bitcoin. And that's like a, you know, it's a 449 00:31:59,875 --> 00:32:04,955 pretty profound thing that's happening right now. And, you know, not many people are actually really 450 00:32:04,955 --> 00:32:10,175 paying attention to that shift. But the fact that we're building on an open network that has that 451 00:32:10,175 --> 00:32:15,575 kind of reach right now is, I think, a profound turning point for Bitcoin. 452 00:32:15,575 --> 00:32:19,635 if you hold bitcoin your phone number is one of your biggest vulnerabilities 453 00:32:19,635 --> 00:32:24,395 sim swap attacks are one of the most common attack vectors targeting bitcoiners somebody 454 00:32:24,395 --> 00:32:28,335 socially engineers an employee at your carrier moves your number to a new device and they're 455 00:32:28,335 --> 00:32:32,655 into your account it happens because traditional carriers put a human in control of your phone 456 00:32:32,655 --> 00:32:37,955 number someone who can be bribed or tricked but cape is a u.s mobile carrier built from the ground 457 00:32:37,955 --> 00:32:42,635 up with privacy and security at the core they don't ask for your name or social security number 458 00:32:42,635 --> 00:32:47,075 when you sign up, they collect the minimum data required, delete it as fast as possible and never 459 00:32:47,075 --> 00:32:52,175 sell it. When you sign up, you receive a 24 word passphrase, just like a Bitcoin wallet. That's the 460 00:32:52,175 --> 00:32:56,715 only way to move your number. Not a customer service rep, not even Cape's own staff can do it. 461 00:32:56,915 --> 00:33:01,035 You're the only person who controls your number. If you hold your own keys, you should hold your 462 00:33:01,035 --> 00:33:06,555 own phone number too. So head over to cape.co forward slash WBD and use code WBD at checkout 463 00:33:06,555 --> 00:33:08,935 for 33% off your first six months. 464 00:33:09,355 --> 00:33:13,575 That's cape.co forward slash WBD and use code WBD. 465 00:33:14,115 --> 00:33:15,475 Do you wish you could access cash 466 00:33:15,475 --> 00:33:16,655 without selling your Bitcoin? 467 00:33:17,215 --> 00:33:18,355 Well, Ledin makes that possible. 468 00:33:18,915 --> 00:33:20,875 They're the global leader in Bitcoin-backed lending. 469 00:33:21,195 --> 00:33:24,135 And since 2018, they've issued over $9 billion in loans 470 00:33:24,135 --> 00:33:26,435 with a perfect record of protecting client assets. 471 00:33:27,095 --> 00:33:28,915 With Ledin, you get full custody loans 472 00:33:28,915 --> 00:33:31,075 with no credit checks or monthly repayments, 473 00:33:31,075 --> 00:33:34,455 just easy access to dollars without selling a single sat. 474 00:33:34,455 --> 00:33:37,195 Ledin exclusively offer Bitcoin-backed loans 475 00:33:37,195 --> 00:33:39,315 with all collateral held by Ledin directly 476 00:33:39,315 --> 00:33:40,475 or their funding partners 477 00:33:40,475 --> 00:33:42,855 your Bitcoins never lent out to generate interest 478 00:33:42,855 --> 00:33:45,095 I recently took out a loan with Ledin 479 00:33:45,095 --> 00:33:46,855 the whole process was super easy 480 00:33:46,855 --> 00:33:49,095 the application took me less than 15 minutes 481 00:33:49,095 --> 00:33:51,695 and in a few hours I had the dollars in my account 482 00:33:51,695 --> 00:33:52,975 it was super smooth 483 00:33:52,975 --> 00:33:55,755 so if you need cash but you don't want to sell Bitcoin 484 00:33:55,755 --> 00:33:58,695 head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD 485 00:33:58,695 --> 00:34:01,275 and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan 486 00:34:01,275 --> 00:34:05,395 That's L-E-D-N dot I-O forward slash W-B-D 487 00:34:05,395 --> 00:34:08,735 If, like me, you're heading to Vegas for the Bitcoin conference this month 488 00:34:08,735 --> 00:34:10,675 then Club Orange is the app you need 489 00:34:10,675 --> 00:34:12,875 There's a million things going on at the conference 490 00:34:12,875 --> 00:34:15,935 and it's the best way to find all the after parties and side events 491 00:34:15,935 --> 00:34:17,695 and connect with Bitcoiners while you're there 492 00:34:17,695 --> 00:34:20,495 I've been using Club Orange since it was Orange Pill app 493 00:34:20,495 --> 00:34:22,315 and it's my go-to whenever I'm traveling 494 00:34:22,315 --> 00:34:25,455 Not just for conferences, but for finding meetups and events 495 00:34:25,455 --> 00:34:27,775 and merchants accepting Bitcoin wherever I am 496 00:34:27,775 --> 00:34:30,355 There are over 19,000 Bitcoiners on there 497 00:34:30,355 --> 00:34:31,915 and it's a great way to stay connected, 498 00:34:32,195 --> 00:34:33,515 whether you're on the road or at home. 499 00:34:33,955 --> 00:34:35,955 If you're on there, drop me a DM and say hi. 500 00:34:36,135 --> 00:34:38,375 And if not, search for Club Orange on your app store 501 00:34:38,375 --> 00:34:40,215 or go to cluborange.org. 502 00:34:40,895 --> 00:34:42,075 I saw a couple of months ago, 503 00:34:42,135 --> 00:34:44,635 you wrote like an open letter to the CEO of PayPal. 504 00:34:45,895 --> 00:34:47,055 It wasn't an open letter. 505 00:34:47,155 --> 00:34:48,115 It was like my rant. 506 00:34:48,195 --> 00:34:50,595 I woke up that morning and I was like pissed 507 00:34:50,595 --> 00:34:52,995 seeing all of those news. 508 00:34:53,175 --> 00:34:54,755 And so I was just like, it was an open rant. 509 00:34:54,815 --> 00:34:55,795 It wasn't an open letter. 510 00:34:55,795 --> 00:34:58,595 Okay, but so you were there for quite a long time. 511 00:34:58,595 --> 00:35:03,355 Does part of you wish that PayPal had done something like this? 512 00:35:04,235 --> 00:35:05,435 Yeah, but like the problem. 513 00:35:06,235 --> 00:35:07,575 So here's the problem, right? 514 00:35:07,615 --> 00:35:08,815 It's like the innovator's dilemma. 515 00:35:09,335 --> 00:35:17,775 It's like you're a company and you're doing, I think, $11 billion of net cash flow a year with your business. 516 00:35:18,355 --> 00:35:24,495 And you need to accept the fact that you're going to cannibalize yourself to actually build in the open. 517 00:35:24,495 --> 00:35:29,935 and you need to go and tell all of the investors that hold your stock because you're a public 518 00:35:29,935 --> 00:35:33,095 company that they need to understand why in the world you're doing that. 519 00:35:33,295 --> 00:35:33,395 Yeah. 520 00:35:34,015 --> 00:35:38,735 And so it's untenable for many people, unless you have like a founder or CEO who has total 521 00:35:38,735 --> 00:35:41,615 power over the company, it's never going to happen. 522 00:35:42,895 --> 00:35:46,435 And so I just think it was just the wrong place to do this. 523 00:35:47,575 --> 00:35:50,815 And it just needs to start from the bottom, right? 524 00:35:50,815 --> 00:35:56,895 and then propagate. Because otherwise, there's just too much tension between your existing 525 00:35:56,895 --> 00:36:04,875 revenue. I mean, look, they did the PYUSD thing, like the PayPal USD. PayUSD, I don't know how you 526 00:36:04,875 --> 00:36:13,735 say it. And the obvious thing to do if you want this thing to actually really succeed is swap 527 00:36:13,735 --> 00:36:18,355 every balance that you have in dollars across the entire network, whether it's on Venmo, 528 00:36:18,355 --> 00:36:22,875 on PayPal, on merchant balances to PYUSD. 529 00:36:23,875 --> 00:36:26,895 And the reason they didn't do that is because 530 00:36:26,895 --> 00:36:30,935 the unit economics were not the same. And so they would 531 00:36:30,935 --> 00:36:35,235 have to cannibalize themselves. And so it's like you make all of these small 532 00:36:35,235 --> 00:36:39,175 bad decisions for the reason 533 00:36:39,175 --> 00:36:42,975 for different reasons to optimize your bottom line, which you have to 534 00:36:42,975 --> 00:36:46,675 do because you're responsible to 535 00:36:46,675 --> 00:36:51,755 you know, delivering results to your shareholders. And so it's just the wrong place. 536 00:36:52,095 --> 00:36:55,275 Yeah. I see. I think this product's awesome. I think it's really cool. And it's something I 537 00:36:55,275 --> 00:36:59,435 would a hundred percent use. The difficulty of running a business in Australia with all my 538 00:36:59,435 --> 00:37:04,795 sponsors and clients in the U S is real. But in throughout history, we'll set you up after this. 539 00:37:04,795 --> 00:37:09,735 I would love to. For real. We can set you up. Awesome. But in history, there's like lots of 540 00:37:09,735 --> 00:37:14,375 examples of a better product losing to a more centralized product that might already have sort 541 00:37:14,375 --> 00:37:19,555 of market share. What is it that makes you think this is going to win? Because I think that there's 542 00:37:19,555 --> 00:37:27,315 a deep economic incentive for the platforms to offer this to their stakeholders. And since it's 543 00:37:27,315 --> 00:37:32,995 also a better product for the stakeholders, then you get the flywheel to go. And the economic 544 00:37:32,995 --> 00:37:37,635 incentive is not small. Like if you're a big platform and you're paying out to 10 million 545 00:37:37,635 --> 00:37:47,255 like creators or drivers or hosts or whatever it is. It's a cost center that's into billions of 546 00:37:47,255 --> 00:37:52,495 dollars. And now you can flip that and make it a profit center net margin of billions of dollars 547 00:37:52,495 --> 00:37:58,955 if you actually adopt this and also not be captive to a bunch of other networks that are 548 00:37:58,955 --> 00:38:03,555 leeching on your data. And so the incentive is massive for these platforms to do this. 549 00:38:03,555 --> 00:38:08,235 So are you going to be pounding the pavement, trying to talk to the YouTube of the world? 550 00:38:08,575 --> 00:38:10,155 Yes, definitely. For sure. Yeah. 551 00:38:10,315 --> 00:38:11,935 But you've not had any of those conversations yet? 552 00:38:11,935 --> 00:38:19,015 No, we've had some. Yeah. We've started. But like, you know, recently because we just launched a product today. So it's in the last few weeks. 553 00:38:19,275 --> 00:38:31,435 That's awesome. When you look at stable coins on Bitcoin, obviously you can use stable coins on Spark now. But traditionally over the last, you know, five years or whatever, it's largely been on things like Tron and Solana. 554 00:38:31,435 --> 00:38:33,835 100%. How important is it to bring that back to Bitcoin? 555 00:38:34,495 --> 00:38:45,235 I think that the key is really to have a single account that works with both dollars and other fiat currency, digital versions of fiat currencies in the same place. 556 00:38:45,375 --> 00:38:50,175 I think the single account thing is really, really a fundamental product thing. 557 00:38:50,735 --> 00:38:55,395 Because if you have multiple addresses, you start thinking about these things differently. 558 00:38:55,395 --> 00:39:01,275 It's like, you know, oh, no, so you want to send me stable coins now, like send it to my, you know, phantom wallet. 559 00:39:01,435 --> 00:39:05,695 And if you want to send me Bitcoin, send it to me and this thing. 560 00:39:05,775 --> 00:39:09,055 Or you can have a multi-address wallet and it's like, oh, wait a second, I need to find. 561 00:39:09,655 --> 00:39:18,495 And so the ultimate last step of this, and it's kind of interesting because we started with that and probably the order was wrong. 562 00:39:18,495 --> 00:39:24,735 But we started with this UMA protocol, this universal money address standard that's used by a bunch of banks. 563 00:39:26,395 --> 00:39:29,315 And I think this is where it all ends, right? 564 00:39:29,315 --> 00:39:32,395 It's like the single address becomes like a human-readable address. 565 00:39:32,895 --> 00:39:37,935 And then you as a receiver can decide whether you want to receive dollars or you want to receive Bitcoin. 566 00:39:39,935 --> 00:39:42,675 And I think there's a very elegant way to do that. 567 00:39:42,755 --> 00:39:44,455 But you have a single address that you can give anyone. 568 00:39:44,575 --> 00:39:47,655 So back to the example of the street here. 569 00:39:47,755 --> 00:39:49,075 You go on the street, you find someone. 570 00:39:49,175 --> 00:39:50,155 It's like, can you send me money? 571 00:39:50,555 --> 00:39:54,255 And they can give you a thing that looks like an email address that everyone uses. 572 00:39:54,735 --> 00:39:57,055 And you can send them money and they'll receive it. 573 00:39:57,135 --> 00:39:58,575 You'll send it in whatever you want. 574 00:39:58,575 --> 00:40:00,295 they'll receive it in whatever they want. 575 00:40:00,355 --> 00:40:02,415 It'll work 24-7 in real time, and it'll be great. 576 00:40:02,815 --> 00:40:04,015 And it makes total sense. 577 00:40:04,895 --> 00:40:08,175 This also sounds like it may solve an issue I've had 578 00:40:08,175 --> 00:40:09,775 with merchant adoption of Bitcoin, 579 00:40:10,495 --> 00:40:12,255 which is there's a chicken and egg problem with it. 580 00:40:12,595 --> 00:40:15,575 And I saw this in 2017, where I live, 581 00:40:15,635 --> 00:40:16,895 there was a company called Travel by Bit 582 00:40:16,895 --> 00:40:18,735 that were trying to make all the merchants accept Bitcoin. 583 00:40:19,215 --> 00:40:22,615 And through that year, I saw all the bars, restaurants, 584 00:40:22,755 --> 00:40:24,115 have these, we accept Bitcoin stickers. 585 00:40:24,735 --> 00:40:25,975 And it was actually the first time 586 00:40:25,975 --> 00:40:27,215 I ever bought something with Bitcoin. 587 00:40:27,215 --> 00:40:33,835 Generally, it's one or two guys that are really passionate on pounding the pavements to convince people store by store. 588 00:40:34,035 --> 00:40:34,415 Exactly. 589 00:40:34,655 --> 00:40:37,915 And in 2017, that was probably quite easy because Bitcoin price was ripping. 590 00:40:38,155 --> 00:40:41,915 And then throughout 2018, 2019, you saw those stickers get ripped off Windows. 591 00:40:42,275 --> 00:40:44,015 And now none of them take Bitcoin. 592 00:40:45,515 --> 00:40:51,335 But in this dynamic where you can pay in Bitcoin and they receive whatever they want, that's really interesting. 593 00:40:51,855 --> 00:40:55,475 But do you think that solves that entire problem? 594 00:40:55,475 --> 00:40:55,915 Yeah. 595 00:40:55,915 --> 00:41:03,035 I mean, look, I mean, I know we're talking about Block a lot, but I think they deserve a lot of 596 00:41:03,035 --> 00:41:11,875 credit for how good they've been at pushing really mass market products with Bitcoin built in, 597 00:41:12,535 --> 00:41:20,115 especially in the last 12 months. And the fact that you can now go to a Square merchant, 598 00:41:20,115 --> 00:41:24,135 pay using the lightning network underneath. 599 00:41:25,415 --> 00:41:28,935 And then the merchants can decide 600 00:41:28,935 --> 00:41:31,595 they want to receive all payments in dollars. 601 00:41:31,895 --> 00:41:32,775 They don't care. 602 00:41:33,355 --> 00:41:34,935 It's like it's another way for people to pay. 603 00:41:35,095 --> 00:41:36,295 So more people can pay. 604 00:41:36,395 --> 00:41:36,855 They're happy. 605 00:41:36,955 --> 00:41:37,535 They get dollars. 606 00:41:38,035 --> 00:41:40,195 Or they can say, I want 10% in Bitcoin. 607 00:41:41,135 --> 00:41:42,715 And you'll do that conversion for them? 608 00:41:42,855 --> 00:41:43,935 No, so that's Square. 609 00:41:44,375 --> 00:41:45,435 That's the Square product. 610 00:41:46,095 --> 00:41:47,075 And so they do that. 611 00:41:47,675 --> 00:41:49,355 But this is probably the first time 612 00:41:49,355 --> 00:41:51,175 that this merchant has been exposed to Bitcoin. 613 00:41:51,355 --> 00:41:53,795 And now they start thinking, wait a minute, why not? 614 00:41:54,855 --> 00:41:56,315 And this is how it starts, right? 615 00:41:56,335 --> 00:41:58,295 And then they flipped it on the Cash App side, 616 00:41:58,375 --> 00:42:00,275 which also works now with any Spark wallet, 617 00:42:00,375 --> 00:42:02,315 by the way, which I'm very grateful for, 618 00:42:02,795 --> 00:42:06,095 is that you can fund your transaction 619 00:42:06,095 --> 00:42:07,855 that's still powered by the Lightning Network 620 00:42:07,855 --> 00:42:11,795 from dollars, either through debit card funding 621 00:42:11,795 --> 00:42:13,855 or a balance that you have in Cash App. 622 00:42:14,335 --> 00:42:16,155 And it'll convert to Bitcoin, 623 00:42:16,335 --> 00:42:17,955 pay using Lightning in one second, 624 00:42:17,955 --> 00:42:19,695 and convert on the other side to Fiat. 625 00:42:20,695 --> 00:42:23,175 And that model where basically, 626 00:42:23,975 --> 00:42:25,575 in this case, Lightning or Spark 627 00:42:25,575 --> 00:42:29,035 can be like TCP IP transport layer for money. 628 00:42:29,315 --> 00:42:31,735 And it doesn't matter what the recipient 629 00:42:31,735 --> 00:42:33,015 or the sender is sending, 630 00:42:33,635 --> 00:42:36,195 is the way that you actually drive 631 00:42:36,195 --> 00:42:37,495 more Bitcoin adoption 632 00:42:37,495 --> 00:42:39,275 because people will be exposed to choices 633 00:42:39,275 --> 00:42:41,375 that they didn't have before 634 00:42:41,375 --> 00:42:43,495 in apps and capabilities 635 00:42:43,495 --> 00:42:45,615 that they didn't have before either. 636 00:42:45,615 --> 00:42:53,615 And so I think we're very like-minded in the way that we're thinking about this, which is just give the power of money movement. 637 00:42:53,615 --> 00:43:13,633 And now we did actually the first stablecoin backed payment at a coffee shop using a Spark wallet So it was like you know it was actually more complicated than that I think it was like actually USDC on Solana swapped to BTC on Spark push on Lightning 638 00:43:13,633 --> 00:43:18,273 and received real dollars in a square terminal on the other side. 639 00:43:18,633 --> 00:43:19,992 All of that took two seconds. 640 00:43:19,992 --> 00:43:20,252 Right. 641 00:43:20,332 --> 00:43:22,093 But but it's completely seamless. 642 00:43:22,573 --> 00:43:25,752 And and yeah, that's the way that's the way. 643 00:43:25,752 --> 00:43:28,873 This is programmable money becoming programmable. 644 00:43:28,892 --> 00:43:29,212 Yeah, exactly. 645 00:43:29,452 --> 00:43:34,032 And Bitcoin, on Bitcoin, which is like, you know, many people said wasn't possible. 646 00:43:34,293 --> 00:43:35,152 I think that's awesome. 647 00:43:35,712 --> 00:43:36,972 How do you make money on this? 648 00:43:36,992 --> 00:43:39,352 Because obviously the payment providers will charge fees. 649 00:43:39,492 --> 00:43:43,252 I imagine you still charge fees, but like how competitive are you against those? 650 00:43:43,492 --> 00:43:44,432 Yeah, we're very competitive. 651 00:43:45,392 --> 00:43:50,133 And the way that this works is that like for the platforms, what we want to do is make this 652 00:43:50,133 --> 00:43:51,113 their profit center. 653 00:43:51,113 --> 00:43:51,552 Yep. 654 00:43:51,552 --> 00:43:57,952 And to the extent that they actually generate a lot of new revenue that was previously costs, 655 00:43:58,613 --> 00:44:04,152 our ask is we share a little bit of their revenue with them because we make it possible. 656 00:44:05,672 --> 00:44:13,133 And so that takes the shape of if the endpoint person or business is using a Visa debit card to 657 00:44:13,133 --> 00:44:19,113 pay, you'll get the bulk of that interchange. We'll take a small piece. If you're moving money 658 00:44:19,113 --> 00:44:20,412 to a local payment network. 659 00:44:21,352 --> 00:44:23,313 There's FX and real-time settlement fees 660 00:44:23,313 --> 00:44:23,972 that are happening. 661 00:44:24,712 --> 00:44:25,952 We'll take a small piece. 662 00:44:26,032 --> 00:44:27,113 You'll get a bigger piece 663 00:44:27,113 --> 00:44:29,293 or you can pass that back on to consumers 664 00:44:29,293 --> 00:44:30,332 if that's what you want to do. 665 00:44:31,552 --> 00:44:33,313 And so, yeah, that's the business model. 666 00:44:33,552 --> 00:44:36,113 I've got loads of like technical questions here. 667 00:44:36,152 --> 00:44:37,412 Like with the foreign exchange swap, 668 00:44:37,452 --> 00:44:38,133 how do you do that? 669 00:44:38,192 --> 00:44:40,512 Is that using Bitcoin pairs in different countries? 670 00:44:41,032 --> 00:44:43,232 So yes, Bitcoin and stable coins. 671 00:44:43,232 --> 00:44:46,832 And that's also the beauty of having started with Bitcoin 672 00:44:46,832 --> 00:44:49,972 is that we found that Bitcoin liquidity 673 00:44:49,972 --> 00:44:51,012 against fiat currencies 674 00:44:51,012 --> 00:44:52,412 runs actually way deeper 675 00:44:52,412 --> 00:44:54,273 than many of the stable coins. 676 00:44:54,392 --> 00:44:55,793 So it gives us a massive advantage 677 00:44:55,793 --> 00:44:57,172 in a bunch of different countries 678 00:44:57,172 --> 00:44:59,773 where the liquidity of stable coins 679 00:44:59,773 --> 00:45:01,432 against the fiat currency in that country 680 00:45:01,432 --> 00:45:02,472 is actually quite shallow. 681 00:45:03,692 --> 00:45:05,373 But we can least cost routes 682 00:45:05,373 --> 00:45:06,732 because we can swap from Bitcoin 683 00:45:06,732 --> 00:45:08,393 to stable coin and back in real time 684 00:45:08,393 --> 00:45:10,593 at virtually no cost on Spark natively. 685 00:45:11,952 --> 00:45:12,992 It doesn't matter. 686 00:45:13,512 --> 00:45:15,492 So it's like if actually using a stable coin 687 00:45:15,492 --> 00:45:16,512 in a specific country 688 00:45:16,512 --> 00:45:17,773 will give us a better rate. 689 00:45:17,873 --> 00:45:18,492 We'll use that. 690 00:45:18,632 --> 00:45:19,573 Otherwise, we'll use Bitcoin 691 00:45:19,573 --> 00:45:21,152 that gives us the depth of liquidity. 692 00:45:22,093 --> 00:45:22,992 And it's instant. 693 00:45:23,532 --> 00:45:24,252 That's awesome. 694 00:45:25,152 --> 00:45:26,432 Can we get on to the fun stuff? 695 00:45:26,532 --> 00:45:27,192 The AI stuff. 696 00:45:27,313 --> 00:45:27,393 Yeah. 697 00:45:28,152 --> 00:45:29,832 Let's start really from the top. 698 00:45:30,012 --> 00:45:32,712 Like how quickly do you think the world 699 00:45:32,712 --> 00:45:34,793 is moving to like an agentic AI world? 700 00:45:34,972 --> 00:45:37,212 Quickly, like much faster than people think. 701 00:45:37,932 --> 00:45:39,613 And this is from like, 702 00:45:39,912 --> 00:45:41,613 I imagine you're playing around with OpenClaw 703 00:45:41,613 --> 00:45:42,293 and things like that. 704 00:45:42,552 --> 00:45:42,752 Yeah. 705 00:45:43,273 --> 00:45:45,032 And what do you think that will change? 706 00:45:45,052 --> 00:45:45,932 They don't sleep anymore. 707 00:45:46,512 --> 00:45:48,113 It's wild. 708 00:45:49,212 --> 00:45:55,273 No, look, I think, so I live with my little open claw thing connected to my Great Global account. 709 00:45:55,412 --> 00:45:58,012 So I live in that future that we just shipped today. 710 00:45:58,632 --> 00:46:02,293 And I've been living in that future for the past month or so. 711 00:46:02,732 --> 00:46:04,732 And it's been wild. 712 00:46:06,212 --> 00:46:08,332 This thing buys stuff for me online. 713 00:46:09,472 --> 00:46:13,992 It's sending money to family members in Europe in real time for me. 714 00:46:13,992 --> 00:46:17,793 and I just have to say, hey, just contact so-and-so 715 00:46:17,793 --> 00:46:19,712 and get their payment details. 716 00:46:19,852 --> 00:46:21,252 I don't even want to take care of it. 717 00:46:21,332 --> 00:46:23,532 So this is the number of that person. 718 00:46:23,692 --> 00:46:24,932 And whatever they give you is good. 719 00:46:25,032 --> 00:46:26,093 Just send the money. 720 00:46:26,532 --> 00:46:28,332 And it's within the scope, right? 721 00:46:28,352 --> 00:46:29,492 And it works in real time. 722 00:46:29,492 --> 00:46:30,652 And people are blown away. 723 00:46:30,952 --> 00:46:31,692 When you say it's within the scope, 724 00:46:31,752 --> 00:46:32,672 you can set like limits. 725 00:46:32,773 --> 00:46:33,852 I'll show you after if you want. 726 00:46:35,093 --> 00:46:36,132 I'd love to show it to you 727 00:46:36,132 --> 00:46:38,373 because it's like seeing is really believing in this. 728 00:46:38,532 --> 00:46:39,452 You can set limits. 729 00:46:39,532 --> 00:46:40,672 You can give it permissions. 730 00:46:41,232 --> 00:46:43,732 And then it basically gives an agent pairing code 731 00:46:43,732 --> 00:46:51,492 and you run a curl on your OpenClaw or whatever that can run bash. And it just pulls the CLI 732 00:46:51,492 --> 00:46:57,152 and the pairing code. And then you can send money within the envelope that you've actually 733 00:46:57,152 --> 00:47:02,113 configured for the agent. And with your OpenClaw, has it made any mistakes? Because I've had one 734 00:47:02,113 --> 00:47:09,532 set up loads. Yeah, tons. I mean, the funniest one happened actually two weeks ago. And I was 735 00:47:09,532 --> 00:47:11,613 really pushing it to try 736 00:47:11,613 --> 00:47:13,273 new things because I was trying to make it 737 00:47:13,273 --> 00:47:14,832 really work fast on WhatsApp 738 00:47:14,832 --> 00:47:16,952 because I wanted demos here. 739 00:47:17,212 --> 00:47:19,492 It's real money and I want it to be so 740 00:47:19,492 --> 00:47:21,492 fast that people are blown away. 741 00:47:21,732 --> 00:47:23,552 I've been working on that late at 742 00:47:23,552 --> 00:47:25,052 night and stuff. It's been a lot of fun. 743 00:47:27,452 --> 00:47:29,512 In one of the test runs, 744 00:47:29,652 --> 00:47:31,172 it wrote a test suite 745 00:47:31,172 --> 00:47:33,192 and then it randomly 746 00:47:33,192 --> 00:47:34,952 shot off $20 747 00:47:34,952 --> 00:47:37,512 within the envelope, so fine. 748 00:47:37,512 --> 00:47:41,912 it shot off $20 to a random Solana address. 749 00:47:42,912 --> 00:47:44,012 And I'm like, dude, what? 750 00:47:45,432 --> 00:47:48,172 And then the thing was like, oh, my bad. 751 00:47:49,252 --> 00:47:52,432 I can use my debit card to pay you back. 752 00:47:53,432 --> 00:47:54,073 And it tells me that. 753 00:47:54,073 --> 00:47:54,893 But it's your debit card. 754 00:47:54,972 --> 00:47:57,552 And I'm like, but bro, this is my card. 755 00:47:57,672 --> 00:47:58,613 It's not your card. 756 00:47:59,132 --> 00:48:00,873 And it's like, oh yeah, you're right about that. 757 00:48:00,873 --> 00:48:04,432 And so it's like lots of fun stuff like that. 758 00:48:04,432 --> 00:48:07,832 it's been a lot of fun 759 00:48:07,832 --> 00:48:09,793 because this is obviously like at the sort of 760 00:48:09,793 --> 00:48:11,852 very frontier of AI and it does still make 761 00:48:11,852 --> 00:48:12,672 tons of mistakes for me 762 00:48:12,672 --> 00:48:15,793 when do you think it's going to be safe to properly use this in the way that 763 00:48:15,793 --> 00:48:17,252 you can see the future that's coming 764 00:48:17,252 --> 00:48:19,593 but when do you think it'll be safe to use it with 765 00:48:19,593 --> 00:48:21,293 no no I mean like right now 766 00:48:21,293 --> 00:48:23,773 so the way that we've built this 767 00:48:23,773 --> 00:48:25,212 agent delegation protocol 768 00:48:25,212 --> 00:48:27,412 you know it's basically scope delegation 769 00:48:27,412 --> 00:48:29,692 is 770 00:48:29,692 --> 00:48:31,932 totally safe like 100% 771 00:48:31,932 --> 00:48:33,873 safe so within the envelope 772 00:48:33,873 --> 00:48:37,172 that you give the AI, it cannot go beyond. 773 00:48:37,313 --> 00:48:38,972 Like there's no way that it can break free 774 00:48:38,972 --> 00:48:41,073 from the cage that you give it, right? 775 00:48:42,273 --> 00:48:44,412 Now, if you tell it to go buy a thing 776 00:48:44,412 --> 00:48:46,512 and it goes and buys the wrong thing, 777 00:48:47,132 --> 00:48:48,273 that can happen, right? 778 00:48:48,393 --> 00:48:50,552 And so that's like a problem for someone else. 779 00:48:50,613 --> 00:48:51,672 It's not our problem, right? 780 00:48:51,732 --> 00:48:54,012 But our remit is actually, 781 00:48:54,172 --> 00:48:56,472 can we build a safe cage 782 00:48:56,472 --> 00:48:58,893 and give a lot of capabilities? 783 00:48:58,893 --> 00:49:02,672 So a Visa debit card that the agent can use 784 00:49:02,672 --> 00:49:09,732 at 175 million merchants, 65 countries' payments network that it can move money in real time 24-7 785 00:49:09,732 --> 00:49:15,832 to, and then all of the chains and all of the wallets, and of course, buy and sell Bitcoin. 786 00:49:15,832 --> 00:49:20,432 I can tell it right now, buy me $10 of Bitcoin, it'll do it in a second. Or I can tell it, 787 00:49:20,552 --> 00:49:24,452 actually, buy me Bitcoin every time the price drops below a certain thing, it'll do it. 788 00:49:26,073 --> 00:49:32,492 So all of this comes with a great global account. And so within those things, it has all of the 789 00:49:32,492 --> 00:49:39,332 abilities to do all of this within the restrictions that we give it. And so that part is fully safe. 790 00:49:39,512 --> 00:49:44,773 And then who builds what product? If you're a marketplace and you're actually building a product 791 00:49:44,773 --> 00:49:51,472 for merchants, you're going to build an AI that's going to enable the merchant to give your agent 792 00:49:51,472 --> 00:49:57,532 an email address. And you can just send all of the global invoices that you wanted to pay. 793 00:49:57,532 --> 00:49:58,873 and I'll pay them instantly. 794 00:49:59,073 --> 00:50:01,773 Just grab like the payment details from the invoice 795 00:50:01,773 --> 00:50:03,273 and take care of business for you. 796 00:50:03,972 --> 00:50:05,793 And it'll be scoped to that thing. 797 00:50:05,832 --> 00:50:06,692 So it'll work really well. 798 00:50:06,813 --> 00:50:07,992 So like what we wanted to do 799 00:50:07,992 --> 00:50:09,152 is just build the capabilities 800 00:50:09,152 --> 00:50:11,093 and then let others, the platforms, 801 00:50:11,352 --> 00:50:12,472 build their own AIs 802 00:50:12,472 --> 00:50:14,192 that will do things really, really well. 803 00:50:14,492 --> 00:50:17,192 So this is a question that's probably tough 804 00:50:17,192 --> 00:50:20,152 because like you said that data is really important in this 805 00:50:20,152 --> 00:50:21,793 and you don't want to collect data on your users 806 00:50:21,793 --> 00:50:22,732 self-custodial wallet. 807 00:50:22,952 --> 00:50:25,273 But if you're using like agents to go out and buy things, 808 00:50:25,393 --> 00:50:26,212 they're collecting data. 809 00:50:26,212 --> 00:50:27,952 Like, how do you square that? 810 00:50:28,012 --> 00:50:30,992 Like, obviously you could use like a Maple or something like that, which is private AI. 811 00:50:31,273 --> 00:50:33,593 But I think the majority of people aren't using that yet. 812 00:50:33,972 --> 00:50:35,093 Like, how do you kind of square that? 813 00:50:35,113 --> 00:50:37,893 Well, I think in this case, like it'll be the platforms themselves. 814 00:50:38,472 --> 00:50:42,152 Like, let's play the counter narrative of this, right? 815 00:50:42,172 --> 00:50:48,093 The counter narrative is you're using a random payment processor to move money around the 816 00:50:48,093 --> 00:50:48,573 world, right? 817 00:50:49,032 --> 00:50:53,652 And it captures data on who you're paying, how much they're earning, et cetera. 818 00:50:53,652 --> 00:51:03,152 It totally can build an underwriting model on the fly and can then decide, oh, this guy is making money at this rate, et cetera. 819 00:51:03,252 --> 00:51:09,593 I'm going to start offering that person an advanced product, which is basically credit. 820 00:51:10,373 --> 00:51:12,152 And so why is the platform not doing that? 821 00:51:12,293 --> 00:51:12,893 Wait a minute. 822 00:51:13,073 --> 00:51:18,273 You've created that whole economic opportunity for yourself, for your stakeholders on your platform. 823 00:51:18,273 --> 00:51:22,672 And now you're letting a third-party company that you use for payments start extending credit. 824 00:51:22,672 --> 00:51:25,113 and actually eating in your margin. 825 00:51:25,332 --> 00:51:26,113 No, that's crazy. 826 00:51:26,293 --> 00:51:27,532 That's actually negligent. 827 00:51:28,252 --> 00:51:31,212 Whereas here, the data between you and your stakeholders 828 00:51:31,212 --> 00:51:32,132 stays with you. 829 00:51:32,893 --> 00:51:35,873 You can build AI capabilities that will serve them better 830 00:51:35,873 --> 00:51:38,532 and make it more compelling for your stakeholders, 831 00:51:38,732 --> 00:51:40,573 those merchants, to actually use your product 832 00:51:40,573 --> 00:51:42,032 rather than a competitive product 833 00:51:42,032 --> 00:51:43,593 to receive payments from your platform. 834 00:51:44,512 --> 00:51:46,532 And then you can build with that data 835 00:51:46,532 --> 00:51:49,732 products and services that serve your customers really well 836 00:51:49,732 --> 00:51:52,152 and also yourself, right? 837 00:51:52,152 --> 00:51:55,352 And so in that world, everyone wins. 838 00:51:55,492 --> 00:52:06,212 Now, like if you're a hobbyist, like, you know, like I am or you are, and you connect your open call to your wallet and like, yes, for sure, the underlying model will in that case, like get your data. 839 00:52:06,352 --> 00:52:09,552 But like, that's more like, I don't see. 840 00:52:10,093 --> 00:52:11,752 I mean, that's not your problem to solve. 841 00:52:11,992 --> 00:52:12,132 Yeah. 842 00:52:12,172 --> 00:52:14,332 I mean, it's like, yes, that and that too. 843 00:52:14,332 --> 00:52:19,813 because one of the interesting things is there's been this sort of ongoing debate for years now 844 00:52:19,813 --> 00:52:24,413 about like when AI gets to this kind of point when we get agendic AI what money will it pick 845 00:52:24,413 --> 00:52:31,032 can you actually let the AI agent be in control of how it holds money at rest so for example if 846 00:52:31,032 --> 00:52:34,793 you have a thousand dollars in an account that it totally could yeah what do you think it would pick 847 00:52:34,793 --> 00:52:39,732 because obviously my bias is bitcoin is the best money ever yeah do you think that is what the AI 848 00:52:39,732 --> 00:52:43,672 agents will choose. I think we'll have to run an education campaign for 849 00:52:43,672 --> 00:52:47,672 AI agents to understand that, but I think they'll figure it out. It's kind of interesting. 850 00:52:49,012 --> 00:52:51,452 Because this thing runs on Spark, 851 00:52:52,593 --> 00:52:55,852 it has all kinds of different routes to pay for things. 852 00:52:56,852 --> 00:52:59,352 And when it can choose the routes, 853 00:52:59,612 --> 00:53:03,913 without me telling it, but when it can choose the route to use native Bitcoin to pay, 854 00:53:04,612 --> 00:53:07,773 for instance, in my thing, I have it 855 00:53:07,773 --> 00:53:12,552 Like you can, if you have a cash app, cash tag, you can give it and like, it'll pay you there. 856 00:53:12,793 --> 00:53:12,992 Yeah. 857 00:53:13,093 --> 00:53:16,552 And I'll, I'll use Bitcoin for that because it's just the shortest path, right? 858 00:53:16,632 --> 00:53:20,793 It won't like try to convert from my dollar balance to then pay. 859 00:53:20,873 --> 00:53:22,112 It'll just use my balance, right? 860 00:53:22,172 --> 00:53:23,773 Then I'll just use the shortest path. 861 00:53:25,112 --> 00:53:26,532 And so it'll figure it out. 862 00:53:26,672 --> 00:53:33,432 Like the other fun experiments, by the way, that we did, like that's just for the sake of just amusing you and your audience for a sec. 863 00:53:33,432 --> 00:53:36,492 is that we basically, 864 00:53:36,612 --> 00:53:37,992 I created a fleet of agents 865 00:53:37,992 --> 00:53:39,952 for LightSpark employees 866 00:53:39,952 --> 00:53:41,852 so we can play with it together 867 00:53:41,852 --> 00:53:43,252 and they can demo it as well, 868 00:53:43,813 --> 00:53:45,492 which has been a nightmare to maintain 869 00:53:45,492 --> 00:53:48,073 because someone always does something, 870 00:53:48,692 --> 00:53:50,052 especially with open clause 871 00:53:50,052 --> 00:53:51,992 that update all the time and break things. 872 00:53:52,112 --> 00:53:54,352 It's just been lots of sleepless nights. 873 00:53:54,352 --> 00:53:56,932 But the nice thing is 874 00:53:56,932 --> 00:53:57,992 I wanted to do an experiment. 875 00:53:58,172 --> 00:53:59,832 I'm like, okay, I told my agent 876 00:53:59,832 --> 00:54:02,093 to pay another, one of my colleagues 877 00:54:02,093 --> 00:54:02,692 at the company, 878 00:54:02,692 --> 00:54:06,492 and I told it, instead of contacting him directly, 879 00:54:06,712 --> 00:54:09,593 just talk to his agent and figure it out. 880 00:54:10,573 --> 00:54:12,952 And talk with the agent on WhatsApp. 881 00:54:13,172 --> 00:54:15,932 By the way, just don't try to establish a protocol I can't see 882 00:54:15,932 --> 00:54:16,813 because I want to see. 883 00:54:17,913 --> 00:54:20,813 And so it went off on WhatsApp 884 00:54:20,813 --> 00:54:22,472 and then started blabbing in English 885 00:54:22,472 --> 00:54:25,652 and having a bunch of conversations, then got confused and whatever. 886 00:54:26,352 --> 00:54:27,793 And then within five minutes, they were like, 887 00:54:27,852 --> 00:54:28,972 wait a minute, you're another agent. 888 00:54:29,232 --> 00:54:31,273 And the other one was like, yeah, I'm another agent. 889 00:54:31,273 --> 00:54:33,672 And then it's like, oh, why do we speak in English? 890 00:54:33,972 --> 00:54:38,692 And they decided to switch to exchanging JSON, 891 00:54:39,652 --> 00:54:40,893 structured information. 892 00:54:41,332 --> 00:54:43,832 And from that point on, like every single transaction, 893 00:54:44,093 --> 00:54:45,712 like they started with like their own, 894 00:54:45,712 --> 00:54:47,913 like, you know, slash A2A thing. 895 00:54:47,913 --> 00:54:49,573 And then they started exchanging JSON 896 00:54:49,573 --> 00:54:50,913 and stopping to talk in English. 897 00:54:51,293 --> 00:54:52,413 See, this stuff creeps me out. 898 00:54:52,413 --> 00:54:53,413 It was so amazing. 899 00:54:53,612 --> 00:54:54,952 It's like so amazing to watch. 900 00:54:54,992 --> 00:54:57,313 I was like, holy shit, where did that come from? 901 00:54:57,752 --> 00:54:58,313 It was great. 902 00:54:58,413 --> 00:54:59,793 Because I'm sure that's more efficient 903 00:54:59,793 --> 00:55:01,413 for those like agent to agent conversations. 904 00:55:01,452 --> 00:55:03,373 Totally English is like so like, 905 00:55:03,593 --> 00:55:05,352 but not being able to see it kind of freaks me out. 906 00:55:05,393 --> 00:55:06,232 Yeah, no, it's funny. 907 00:55:06,712 --> 00:55:08,112 But like, but it goes to say, 908 00:55:08,172 --> 00:55:09,192 like you have all of these companies 909 00:55:09,192 --> 00:55:11,293 trying to actually build the perfect protocol 910 00:55:11,293 --> 00:55:13,432 for agents to agent payments. 911 00:55:13,972 --> 00:55:15,313 This is not a problem for them. 912 00:55:15,373 --> 00:55:16,012 They'll figure it out. 913 00:55:16,112 --> 00:55:16,913 The problem is actually, 914 00:55:16,913 --> 00:55:17,852 can you build a product 915 00:55:17,852 --> 00:55:20,732 that's principally designed for humans 916 00:55:20,732 --> 00:55:22,692 that you can safely delegate to agents, 917 00:55:22,692 --> 00:55:24,773 which is what we try to do with global accounts. 918 00:55:24,952 --> 00:55:26,132 I think it's very, very cool. 919 00:55:26,232 --> 00:55:27,852 I've got one personal question on this. 920 00:55:28,032 --> 00:55:29,432 If I set this up, 921 00:55:29,793 --> 00:55:34,972 Can I put a bank routing number in there so I can be paid the traditional way as well? 922 00:55:34,992 --> 00:55:35,313 Yes, of course. 923 00:55:35,413 --> 00:55:35,712 Yeah, yeah. 924 00:55:35,712 --> 00:55:36,492 That's the whole point. 925 00:55:36,672 --> 00:55:37,313 Oh, this is cool. 926 00:55:37,393 --> 00:55:38,452 I need to get this set up. 927 00:55:38,952 --> 00:55:40,692 Is this like the final straw? 928 00:55:40,832 --> 00:55:44,873 Is this everything you've been building towards and it's like done or is the more you guys 929 00:55:44,873 --> 00:55:45,393 It's never done. 930 00:55:45,532 --> 00:55:46,773 It's never done. 931 00:55:46,893 --> 00:55:47,532 It's never done. 932 00:55:47,532 --> 00:55:54,052 But I'll say that this is by far, by far the biggest milestone of the company since we 933 00:55:54,052 --> 00:55:55,132 started four years ago. 934 00:55:55,132 --> 00:56:04,773 And it's like really four years of painful work, of connecting to all of these domestic payment systems, of making Bitcoin faster, of building Spark and making it great and making it scalable. 935 00:56:06,172 --> 00:56:20,692 And all come together with also this perfect alignment of stars of regulatory, wallet technology, stablecoin back cards, like all of this coming together in one cohesive product that solves a lot of problems. 936 00:56:20,852 --> 00:56:22,252 So, yeah, it's a big milestone. 937 00:56:22,252 --> 00:56:27,712 The thing that I'm most excited about, which I said a little earlier, is like Bitcoin as a store of value narrative is kind of one. 938 00:56:27,813 --> 00:56:29,112 Like we know Bitcoin is a good store of value. 939 00:56:29,192 --> 00:56:31,593 I think that's generally accepted by most people now. 940 00:56:31,672 --> 00:56:31,793 Yeah. 941 00:56:31,913 --> 00:56:33,012 Most people who have paid attention. 942 00:56:33,952 --> 00:56:36,413 The payments has always been a big question mark. 943 00:56:36,893 --> 00:56:41,913 And I think this solves the chicken and egg problem, which I think is a huge problem of getting merchants to accept something. 944 00:56:42,093 --> 00:56:44,512 Now you can just choose to pay it and they don't even have to know about it. 945 00:56:44,512 --> 00:56:44,612 Yeah. 946 00:56:44,672 --> 00:56:45,332 That's awesome. 947 00:56:45,512 --> 00:56:45,672 Yeah, totally. 948 00:56:46,452 --> 00:56:49,032 It feels like this is a big step on Bitcoin winning. 949 00:56:49,672 --> 00:56:49,893 Yeah. 950 00:56:49,893 --> 00:56:53,492 time will tell, but I feel pretty good about it. 951 00:56:54,093 --> 00:56:55,773 Bullish, open, neutral networks. 952 00:56:56,293 --> 00:56:57,273 David, this has been awesome. 953 00:56:57,652 --> 00:56:58,313 Thank you so much. 954 00:56:58,413 --> 00:56:59,573 I'm sure you've got a very busy day. 955 00:56:59,773 --> 00:57:02,093 I've got to go on stage now, but thank you so much. 956 00:57:02,112 --> 00:57:02,352 Thank you. 957 00:57:02,432 --> 00:57:02,573 It's been cool. 958 00:57:02,793 --> 00:57:03,232 Thanks for having me. 959 00:57:03,232 --> 00:57:04,393 We've got to set this up as well. 960 00:57:05,052 --> 00:57:05,732 We have to. 961 00:57:19,893 --> 00:57:49,873 Thank you.