The root of the problem is that the money, how money is created and how it's distributed
throughout the economy.
It has externalities on everything.
Bitcoin can be a means to an end, but it's how do you convince people that this is the
right means to the right end?
If you own Bitcoin and you have it self-custodied, it's yours.
It's going to be your way out of this dystopian hellhole that's probably going to get produced.
The point of uncensorable cypherpunk money is to be uncensorable and allow for anyone anywhere to use it for whatever they want.
If you're worried about the state doing stuff, like, get the fuck out of it.
Like, I don't know what you're doing here.
I don't understand why you're interested in this project.
You should just kind of bluntly assume your favorite Bitcoin developer is probably an intelligence asset just because that's the model.
If you're a Bitcoiner who believes in freedom, you have to tread lightly as you walk through the valley of the shadow of death because you are beset on all sides by enemies.
Eric, Hoddle, Marty, good to see you guys.
I thought I wanted to get a show out for Bitcoin White Paper Day, 17 years since the white paper dropped.
This is going to go out on Friday.
Marty, this is your first time on the show, though.
Welcome, man.
It's great to be here.
I was on the previous iteration of what Bitcoin did, but never this one.
Yeah, we tried to make it work in Austin when I was there a few months ago, but here we are anyway.
But 17 years since the white paper dropped, you guys have all been in Bitcoin for like a long time.
Eric, I think probably you've been in the longest.
I just want to get a bit of a reflection on this.
Like when you look back at what Bitcoin's done over the last 17 years, like how do you take it in?
It's gone from being like worth literally zero.
You get it free like faucets and you could mine it on your home laptop to being like a $2 trillion asset.
that's very sort of geopolitically relevant?
How do you take all that in?
Yeah, I remember when you used to be able to get like
hundreds of Bitcoin from a faucet.
I mean, it's like I took acid and it never wore off.
It's just like I'm like perpetually in this insane trip of a journey.
And like it's super blessed and amazing.
I mean, when I first discovered Bitcoin,
there was very little outside of the Bitcoin talk forms
that were available.
Yeah, and it was like a batshit crazy idea.
and uh it's funny because like i don't feel like there's as much of the like you like smoked you
like smoke the bitcoin crack sort of effect that like people used to have because like some of the
other early psychopaths that i met like they they would be like yeah i like when it clicked for me
like i couldn't sleep for days on end i like lost a bunch of weight it was you know like i really got
what it was uh and so now that it's like actually achieving what it set out to be it's it's a very
strange and ethereal journey, but I feel
immensely blessed that I saw
what it was, that it seems to be
doing what we wanted to.
And we're also at this very interesting inflection
point where it seems
like Banker Bitcoin and Sucoin
is actually giving
Cypherpunk Vision
a bit of a run for its money
at this point in time.
So I don't know. I feel really great
about what it's accomplished, but
I'm deeply concerned about the lack
of pedagogical approach about
like the point of uncensorable cypherpunk money is to be uncensorable and allow for anyone anywhere
to use it for whatever they want. And that's its technical purpose. And so seeing a lot of people
just cheering on number go up repeatedly, I do find a bit alarming. But with that being said,
Bitcoin's magnitude beyond anything I could have imagined in my wildest dreams. So like I feel
deeply blessed that the vision is out there in the world and it offers a radical new kind of
hope to most people. I'd just like to get back to sort of a lot of insane stuff that me and
HODL first connected around, like in sort of the 2020-2021 cycle, where it was much more about
the spiritual awakening of Bitcoin, as opposed to that we're all just going to get rich and drive
Ferraris. Do you think that's just like a consequence of scale, though? And not everyone's
going to get Bitcoin in that way? Because I'm with you. I got into Bitcoin later than you. But even
when I did like the from the day I first heard about Bitcoin there's probably not been a single
day since that I've not read about it like tried to learn about it want to go further and further
down that rabbit hole but like as this scales not everyone's going to be like that yeah and I do
think that's part of the consequence I also think that like uh sort of the the crazier more radical
voices are getting drowned out of it and like I I sort of think it's time for us to redouble into
our own insane journey because like my deepest frustration now when I talk to people I'm like
oh I'm a Bitcoin and they're like oh crypto I'm like no if you ever say that again I'm gonna smack
it right out of your fucking mouth um and i'm very pedantic i'm like if you don't understand the
difference between bitcoin and crypto you don't understand either and you're going to get scammed
for the latter as opposed to actually getting the true cause of what the former is and like
so bitcoin has a real opportunity to free us from the endemic rot that like is the fiat system uh
drive people around me crazy by like constantly commenting on the societal ills that fiat has
created and and you can just see that metastasizing effect across society and at this point in america
like i i highly expect the next five years it's fascism or communism it's like one of the two
choices and that's just a result of a broken money system and it's really interesting to like
watch america become like the we mayer remix so it's like 2030s you know and like that's what
we're gonna get and uh it's pretty scary because also like the the communists have like a very
strong argument now of like yeah fuck it like let's just seize the boomers property redistribute
to the youth because like they fucked us over we'll never fucking touch social security we'll
never get entitlements they're just handing out willy-nilly medicare to everyone except for the
youth so yeah like fuck it let's just have a full-on communist party start seizing wealth
across the board start executing vcs it'll work great and at that point that's when you get
somebody in the far right being like hey they're gonna kill all you guys if you don't give me
radical power so you can either sign up here or get executed by the communists which one
this uh this is funny you're bringing this up because this aligns very much in my early bitcoin
story back in like 2013 i got pushed over the edge i was like really into bitcoin it's funny
this uh this is the philadelphia inquire uh headline from october 31st 2008 when the white
paper dropped while we're here to meet this. I was 17 years old, running around the streets of
Philadelphia after the Phillies won the World Series. Great financial crisis was happening.
I went to college with no enemy mentality, but to your point, Eric, what really pushed me over the
edge is I worked for this Russian immigrant. He immigrated to the United States in the 90s.
And I'll never forget this one portfolio management meeting we had. We sat down and
ended up just being me and him. His name was Dimitri. In the room, we were talking about TSA
and civil liberties and stuff like that. And he typically, during our meetings, he would just look
at his computer. He was a quant and he'd have all this stuff up. And he like turned from his computer
and looked at me. When we were talking about the TSA, he was like, Marty, I want to tell you a
story. The first time I immigrated here, I'll never forget in 1994, the first time I walked
through an airport in the United States, I cried because I'd never felt that amount of freedom.
And I want to warn you as a young 22 year old man that the U.S. is turning into the Soviet Russia I ran away from. And that was in like 2013, maybe early 2014. And I was learning about Bitcoin at the time. But just reflecting on America and not necessarily Bitcoin since then, like, yeah, it's definitely gone down that trajectory towards over communism.
and really why I went full bore into Bitcoin in the first place.
It was like, this thing is separate from that.
I need to focus my attention on this.
Yeah.
Just reflecting on the whole thing,
I remember being deeply affected by the great financial crisis,
just like Marty.
I have a friend, Jenseth, who says that you didn't get to Bitcoin
because you're so smart.
You got here because you were a young man
who had stupid ideas about the government,
which I certainly embodied.
I was in high school writing papers about seasteading
and things like that.
And my daughter's walking through.
Hi, sweetie.
Can you go?
Can you go to the church?
Thank you.
And so anyway,
I was ideologically predisposed
to be a crazy libertarian person.
And then you find Bitcoin
and you're like,
well, shit, here it is.
The thing we've been waiting for.
We don't have to be
loser libertarians anymore.
We're going to be rich libertarians
who affect the world
in a positive way.
And actually,
maybe we can get towards
anarcho-capitalism
because Bitcoin is solving
a problem, right? It's not just us complaining or doing rhetoric against the system. Like,
we actually are solving a problem. And the problem is, like, people used to say in the early days of
Bitcoin, it had no killer app. And it's like, the killer app is prosperity. You know, prosperity is
the killer app. And every single person on earth wants that. And when you talk about this political
fight that's happening now between the commies and, you know, the fascists, and I was just listening
to, like, Fuentes on Tucker Carlson, and he throws in there as this, like, sort of casual aside that he
admires joseph stalin and it's like and it just gets brushed brushed right by it it's like
okay both of these the luigi mangioni left the groipers everyone's an economic populist and
economic populism is rising and i think that we as the bitcoiners are like which is weird because
we're the people who are from the island of misfit toys we're the weirdos we are now occupying the
sane, like, middle ground.
Like, we are the rational center
and saying, hey, guys,
like, maybe it's not
we need to kill all the immigrants
and maybe it's not
we need to kill everybody
with more than a million dollars.
Maybe it's we need a money
that can't be corrupted.
And oh, by the way,
we're a broad, multi-diverse,
multi-racial, multi-ethnic,
multi-religious coalition
of young people
who have all seen a better,
brighter, orangier future.
and like, join us, you know?
And that's crazy, but it gets less crazy every day.
Less, you know, the alternative,
like the mainstream political alternatives
are so much fucking crazier than what I just said.
Like magic internet money, join us.
You know what I mean?
A man in a stupid wizard hat.
Like that's way more sane than what's going on
on the left or the right.
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visit anchor watch.com today that is anchor watch.com marty i want to go back to something you said
before like you were talking about the us basically trending towards soviet russia um if that's
happening the uk and australia and other places around the world are definitely front-running the
us in that sense um do you think bitcoin can actually stop that or or is bitcoin just an opt
out so you don't have to be involved in it i don't think bitcoin in and of itself can really
stop anything it's really up to individuals adopting bitcoin and using it to stop it and i
think obviously the four of us here um are pretty much well on our way to trying to do that i think
hodl to your point and i think it's the one thing i've been reflecting on
a lot in the recent,
well, in the last year is,
okay, like how can we sharpen the messaging
to really get through to people?
Like you're saying,
we have the crazy left and the crazy right,
and they're all somehow missing
that there's a third option
or another option.
Maybe there's more than three.
With Bitcoin,
where the root of the problem is that
the money,
how money is created
and how it's distributed
throughout the economy.
It has externalities on everything.
we touch in the economy.
It's like Bitcoin can be a means to an end,
but it's how do you convince people
that this is the right means to the right end?
And that's something that I think a lot about these days.
And Hodel, like you were saying
that prosperity is the killer app,
and that kind of goes against what Eric was saying,
because you're basically saying number go up
is the thing we need right now,
so Bitcoins get wealthy and can, I guess,
change the world themselves.
Do you think we are sacrificing things
for number go up right now?
Yeah, there's a tension.
I mean, listen, just to be honest,
yeah, there's a tension between censorship resistance
and number go up.
And I've long had this sort of view
that Bitcoin is going to have to walk
through sort of a period of like,
you know, purgatory, essentially.
Like that there's going to be like a shadow,
you know, co-option of Bitcoin
where it kind of looks like Bitcoin has been cucked
and then Bitcoin explodes out the other side.
Now, maybe that's like a defeatist viewpoint
and people are like, oh, you can't give in because, you know, but I think that
if you're thinking about these things as two super organisms like Bitcoin and the traditional
financial system, I think Bitcoin is a pathogen that eats the host. And so I think if we put
Bitcoin into the traditional financial system, I think it will overtake the traditional financial
system over time. And I don't know that the idea of Bitcoin being outside money is Bitcoin's
ultimate destiny because in order to get where it's going, it has to pass through the traditional
system, I think. So like, you know, you see this throughout history, like, you know, Christianity
subsumes Rome, and I think Bitcoin subsumes like the modern state, the fiat state. And that's a
long arduous journey that like, if you're a Bitcoiner who believes in freedom, like you have
to tread lightly as you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, because you are beset on
all sides by enemies. You know, that's just the way it is. We've chosen the hardest path on the
table, basically. It's a lot easier to join up and say, I'm going to be a far right populist,
or I'm going to be a far left populist. Bitcoiners are trying to walk the middle path,
and it's difficult. Yeah. I want to know what you think about that,
Eric, because with the way people interact with Bitcoin now, it's like KYC, AML exchanges,
there's treasury companies, ETF, the institutionalization of Bitcoin. That is the
area that I have some concern, not a great deal of concern in, but some degree of concern in.
Like, do you think Bitcoin's strong enough to go through that and make out the other side, like HODL's saying?
Or do you think we risk losing something along the way?
Yeah, it's kind of interesting because, like, I feel like this is always the game Bitcoin's playing with the Trojan horse thing.
And so, like, I feel like we're at the place where, like, they've brought the horse into Troy.
They've all had their great celebration.
And I think, like, now we essentially need to see a bunch of shit blow up internally inside of the financial system and watch kind of the general wealthy and elite flee to Bitcoin.
And that's sort of them like opening the gates of Troy and fleeing.
And then it's like, oh, look, the Aegeans are outside.
With that being said, maybe like this is more on to us as I felt back in like the 2021 era, I felt like we had a really strong narrative about how Bitcoin was going to fuck up this system and empower people.
But really, like I kind of think like stealing from Lenin's playbook, like we essentially need a deep class consciousness awakening.
and there needs to be a pedagogical approach that explains how fiat money has destroyed society
because i i find it very interesting that everyone sees how absolutely fucked up everything is and
usually they take a right left paradigm in order to describe that and like particularly being here
in like the liberal hub of the world like i'm extremely pedantic with my liberal friends about
like you like we have this like no kings bullshit going on here about uh like trump trying to like
do gerrymandering. And I'm just like, come on, how much of a bozo do you have to be to see that
they're doing gerrymandering for the left and that somebody like Nancy Pelosi is now worth $100
million despite being a career politician? You don't think that that is from pure and utter
corruption and that at least people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are being direct about how
they want to make money. Nancy Pelosi is a pure parasite insofar that she literally engages in
insider trading, robs the American public by making backdoor deals with some of the most
disgusting people and ideas that there could be. And yet somehow you find yourself cheering for her
and her side. You really need to look deeper into what's going on if you actually want to liberate
yourself. And I have a great answer for you, but it's going to require some real thought on your
part and really actually wondering whether or not you've become a useful idiot for people that hate
you and want to abuse you and steal from you because i do have an answer but it's going to
require you to do some real thought and actually start start in the process of unwinding the very
deep brainwashing that most people have gone through and some people receive it some people
don't but at the end of the day like and this is why i've kind of uh lightly flirted with the idea
about an orange party is that like my idea is we essentially need a radical central orange party
that's in the middle that advocates for these very middle of the road, normal things and in
the process needs to absolutely fucking lamb blast anybody on the right or left and be like
the Democrats and Republicans are the enemies. They've destroyed our fucking country. And when
we come to power, every single federal representative will be put on trial for
treason. And when they're found guilty, they will be hung according to American law because that like
that's what they did. They engaged in outright fucking treason. They never expected themselves
to be held accountable.
And I want to see them hung from public gallows
when it becomes very clear that they sold us up the street
to the Chinese for like, what, $20,000 maybe?
Like that's the other thing that's outrageous
is the amount of money that they're prostituting us for
is fucking pennies on the dollar.
And with that being said, this establishment is so corrupt.
I don't see why we can't just ram through state legislatures
because what, to buy something to pass any state legislature,
It's going to cost maybe $50,000 to get converts on the right side.
And as you populize a movement like this, you just strong arm everybody because it's
clear that these geriatrics are completely spineless individuals, that the moment that
you start putting real pressure on them and being very clear that this is the direction
it's going and this isn't about money anymore.
This is actually about whether or not they're going to live at the end of this.
Yeah, they'll collapse.
But again, this is a very radical viewpoint that I'm establishing.
So if anybody wants to take this and run with it, please feel free.
I don't think it needed that disclaimer.
But what kind of legislative do you want to push through?
Because you're the anarchist.
Why do you want this to go through the government rails?
Excellent question.
I want to go through state government rails because in the United States, we have the
ability to amend the Constitution using state legislations alone.
There's been a number of amendments to the U.S. Constitution that have gotten pretty close.
And I'm pretty sure the only amendment that was actually pushed through through this methodology was to repeal the amendment for prohibition.
And so essentially the idea is that if you can get 35 state legislatures to pass an amendment to the United States Constitution using the slang, the language that's supposed to just be added to the Constitution directly and unilaterally.
And this was explicitly explained in the Federalist Papers as a way for the American public to be able to reclaim the republic when the federal government has become entirely corrupt, which I think that's the place that we're at.
And so it's a radically different strategy that sort of tries to lateralize states to reclaim their ability to essentially prove their sovereignty through amending the Constitution without any sort of federal representatives whatsoever.
Again, this is like kind of a harebrained idea.
I don't really want to run this down because like I'm not a politician and I don't really want to get shot at this age.
Although, yeah, like maybe I'm due for a young death anyway.
So like maybe we should just run this down anyways.
But what do you want added to the Constitution?
First one is just like unilateral destruction of the Federal Reserve.
Just like the Federal Reserve does not get the issue of the dollar anymore.
Done.
And like with that, it's amended to the Constitution.
And the interesting thing is like this causes a constitutional crisis because it's not like a federal government is just going to be like, oh, no, they amended the Constitution with Article five.
Like, gee golly dang.
You know, in addition to like if you get that method to work, keep going.
It's like, you know, the United States federal government has no right to tax anyone anymore.
Or like the IRS is just an illegal institution that needs to be outright liquidated today.
Like, you know, let your mind go crazy because there's no reason why we can't just use amendments directly as a way to essentially have a publicist to be able to pass laws against the federal government.
And again, super radical idea would definitely cause a constitutional crisis, would probably get me killed in the process.
But fuck it, we're all going to die at this point in time if communists comes along.
So I'd rather get shot and starve to death.
I love that whenever you speak to Eric this is about like reflecting on 17 years of Bitcoin It took us what 20 minutes to get into hanging all the politicians Well look I want to only do it if they actually been found guilty of treason
All I'm saying is let's actually uphold the laws that have been established.
There will be due process.
And I think if we looked in the-
It's not French Revolution.
It's due process.
Exactly.
And it's very important that state governments all handle this on their own.
So I'd expect that the representatives of each individual state, in addition to their senators,
You know, so I would want Wyoming to put their senators on trial. And if it turns out that their senators hadn't broken the law, excellent. They don't get hung. Turns out that if, you know, some of the representatives in California took COVID money and never paid it back, had broke the law. Well, hey, that that they need to be held accountable for.
but to me like again and it is ironic that as the anarchist that like i'm the one representing the
rule of law more than anybody else is just kind of the irony of the entirety of this thing a very
fact that we're talking about magic internet money is supposed to be the thing that returns us to
sane economic prerogatives in the world as well that's where we're at in the narrative so here we
are and you brought the no kings protest i've very intentionally just ignored everything that's
been going on with that because i i don't i don't need to pay attention to that but can one of you
fill me in like how big has that been over there not that big it's it's yeah it's like it's
astroturfed honestly like it seems kind of fake yeah yeah i've seen some people hanging out at
like again because i live in like the heart of liberal mecca uh like i see some people standing
on the corners with their signs congratulating themselves for participating in democracy but i'm
i'm just like super confused because like wasn't donald trump like elected through the democratic
process so and like furthermore
like I don't know of a lot of
kings that like served for one term
and then like left afterwards and
reelected and so
I don't know there's like a weird brain virus
going on because like I don't
actually hear I mean like of the
two Republicans that I know in the area
like they don't talk about Trump
incessantly whereas like the liberals that I know
they're always like that
piece of shit Trump and he's
destroying America with his
fascism and I'm like deep like
do you know what this word means?
Cause like,
I think you're using a lot of words that you don't understand.
They're like,
yeah,
like fascism is where the bad guy wins.
And I'm like,
no,
I think that there's maybe a deeper cause.
Cause I always insist to people like the problem with calling Trump a fascist,
like he's not principled enough to be a fascist.
Like if he was a fascist,
like I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more people in prison and getting murdered
exjudiciously.
So I don't know.
That's just my standpoint with it.
But yeah,
I do feel like this is astroturfed.
And it's, I don't know, this is all bullshit.
It's this left-right thing to divide us
instead of us be like,
hey, like the cost of groceries has gone up 50%
in the last five years.
Like that seems to be fucking all of us pretty equally
except for this political class.
That's pretty strange, huh?
Hmm.
Just to bring it back to Bitcoin for a minute.
Like we've done 965 shows or something
about all the wins that Bitcoin has had.
But is there anything that you think we're not doing well enough?
Maybe we'll start with you, Mai.
Getting to the youth.
I was going to say, Eric, while you're talking about that,
not only are we stuck in the middle with you with red and blue,
but I think it's like boomers and Gen Z.
It's like, I feel like there's a cohort of millennials.
Obviously, not every millennial is in the Bitcoin,
but I think we're overrepresented within people that have adopted Bitcoin.
and the boomers are just old dogs.
You're not going to teach an old dog new trick.
And then the zoomers are just completely nihilistic
and running towards the wrong fake idols, if you will.
And it's like, how do we,
that's one thing again I've been thinking about.
We had a whole zoomer series on our HR.
I remember when I was in Austin earlier this year,
we were talking about this
because I think the demographics for our shows
are probably pretty similar.
and like the boomers I've actually seen that growing like I do see a sort of growing cohort
there but in terms of sort of Gen Z there's almost no one listens to the show I don't know
whether that's because it's like long-form content people prefer different types of media but like how
do you reach those people I don't know I'm looking at my demo right now my core demo is 35 to 44
at 25%. The next is 45 to 54 at 24. And then it's 55 to 64. And then it's 65 plus,
and then it drops down to 25, 34. So it's not even millennials of my age, which is crazy. I don't
know if it's the type of content we do, but I'm sure yours is similar for some reason.
The Zoomers who are arguably the most important cohort for us to go out and convert to recognizing
this third way of doing things or just not getting this information from what I can tell.
I do wonder though, like, cause when I got into Bitcoin, I didn't have very much money at all,
but, and Bitcoin seemed expensive then. And like, relatively it was obviously not like,
do you think that's just unit bias that like, how can I, you know, gain from this thing when
I can just go and like punt on meme game, meme stocks or whatever? I think we're just living in
a completely different world. And I've come to realize this, like in the last three, like I don't
get Zoomer culture at all.
No, I got that.
6-7 or something like that?
6-7.
It's the first one.
I have no idea what it is and apparently it's the biggest thing.
Yeah, I've never even heard of that.
Maybe not.
I think the thing that's hard as a millennial to understand about Zoomers is
that just how pronounced the nihilism is.
I think we all go on Twitter and we're like,
oh my God, things are just getting worse every day.
But we still have this sort of inherent like boomer utopianism
because we were like real optimism
because we were raised by the boomers.
And so we kind of think that,
I don't know, things are pretty shit,
but like, I think we can pull it out.
Like maybe we can make it work, you know?
And so Bitcoin is a, you know,
it's a philosophy of rational optimism
because you're basically saying like,
I have a future and I'm going to like plan for my future.
And I'm going to do that with Bitcoin.
But if you've totally swallowed the black pill,
then you're basically saying,
I'm waiting for the revolution.
And if the revolution never comes,
I'll just kill myself.
And I think, unfortunately,
that's what's going on with a lot of people
in the Gen Z demographic.
And what I would say to them is basically like,
listen, the generational divide, whatever.
Millennials are cringe.
Yeah, of course, we're cringe.
That's our thing, dog.
You guys need to care about yourself
and you need to start making some plans
because you do have a future.
No matter what happens,
The world gets really bad.
The world goes dark, whatever.
It's like the sun is still going to come up
and people are still going to go to work
and people are still going to raise their families.
Like you have a future.
And so you need to plan accordingly
as if you have a future.
And you need to do that in a rationally optimistic way.
You know, I think with Bitcoin,
but like in all aspects of your life,
you should plan that you're going to be here
in the next 10 years
because the people that aren't,
that don't plan to be here,
they end up in woeful circumstances.
They're still here.
They don't die.
they're still here 10 20 30 years from now and they end up in just these awful circumstances
with just these miserable lives and you don't want that to be you i mean to be fair to like
steelman the black pill argument like it it's like really strong it kind of reminds me like
the fish parable but with darkness it's like hey kids like how's the light today and like
you know the fish in fact they're like what's light you know because like like look at look
at the demographics and the statistics that like uh they grew up with a generation of parents who
like already believed like the climate crisis doomerism ai doomerism like i'm the heart of ai
like it's fucking bananas that like i don't think i've met a single person well there's one guy but
outside of him i don't think i've met a single ai person that like has a non-black-pilled version
so like ai is gonna murder everybody anyways uh like the the politics are completely fucked across
the board the idea of them living moving out of their parents basement is a distant dream you know
that the idea of just getting a room in the house and not living in the basement is like a dream so
like they have a pretty strong argument for like why should i give a fuck about myself or the future
because it's not gonna come and this is one of the places where like that's why i think that like
insane communism works because it's like hey if you join my communist party we're just gonna kill
the boomers and steal their shit and redistribute their housing to you so would you like to take up
arms for the great communist cause. I'm like, that's like a pretty appealing thing at this
point in time. And it's fucking terrifying. And I wish that this would actually get the boomers to
the table in a meaningful way to go, oh yeah, we did actually fuck everything up, rewarded ourselves
and then sold our children down the river. And now our grandchildren are going to murder us for that.
You know, like that, that seems to be like a probabilistical outcome. And the thing that,
that I find deeply resentful of is that like, when, at least in my case, when this has been
presented to boomers,
you kind of just get a shrug.
And they're kind of like, eh.
I'm 10 feet away from the grave anyway.
Don't care.
Yeah. And so, like, in all honesty,
again, I think this brings it back to us
and our demographic. And, like, it kind of sucks
to admit it. But, like,
I think we just have to actually do something
even though I'm, like, pretty resistant to it.
And, like, this is absolutely idiotic
that it's, like, magic internet money
is here to save everybody from the nihilistic
hellhole that the world is becoming.
But,
This seems to be the narrative that we're on the course for.
So I guess let's just get it done before it gets fucking harder.
I do think like when you talk about we're going to move to either communism or fascism,
like the communist outcome is really easy to predict, especially with AI.
Like you can see UBI is almost like baked in the cake at this point to me.
Like I don't understand how we can have anything else.
Do you think that's the most likely outcome here?
No, I think the fascist outcome is the most likely outcome.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Yeah, because the surveillance state has already been built,
and it works whether you're a communist oligarchy or a fascist dictator.
And I think that the call to restoring Western society to what it once was,
because many of the people alive have seen it deteriorate,
I think is going to be a pretty strong call,
and all you need is a charismatic dictator type to come and say,
he's going to fix everything.
And a lot of people who are otherwise normal, hardworking, conservative, you know, family people will have this, the opposite brain worm of the communist brain worm and say to themselves, well, I do want things to go back to normal.
So let's grant this guy unlimited power.
And that is, you know, the road to hell.
But if you're staring down two forks in the road and they're both the road to hell, that's the road to hell that's more comfortable and easier to take, I think, for the vast majority of Western people.
Well, and to be very clear that, like, fascism was an explicit development as a counter-communist movement.
Right.
Like, Mussolini was an anarchist before he created the fascist movement.
And like, that's part of the reasoning is when he saw what communism was doing after, uh, I'm trying to remember the Italian movement that got, uh, that got communism in power in Italy. And he saw the sort of damage it was doing the culture. It's only after that, that the fascist movement sort of gained steam. In addition to like, we're just talking about variants of socialism. Fascism is literally a brand of nationalized socialism.
and and like this is one of the main dividing things that a lot of people don't understand
is something that sets socialism apart from communism is that socialism is just a nationalized
brand whereas international socialism is communist and so it's like through that methodology you get
to be like oh americanism is an actual special cultural thing we do need to kick all the
immigrants out like that's something that we need to protect as a national identity for ourselves
whereas communism is just like no borders everybody can participate equally we're going
of seize the means of production and redistribute it because that worked out super well in the 20th
century and nobody was ever harmed from it um in addition to like fascism died a death in an early
grave so it's kind of a general spooky name like we we haven't outside of uh because also i'd make
the argument that stuff like uh francoism what we saw in portugal and all the stuff that we saw in
latin america like i don't think i think those were authoritarian movements as opposed to fascist
ones. This is highly debatable, but like, I think fascism is still an open-ended question,
particularly here in America. Yeah. And, and essentially like as the communists rise into
power, it seems that it'll have great appeal because instead of me needing to appeal to all
of the masses, you essentially go to three dozen billionaire tech founders and you say,
give me the fucking power or people are going to kill you. And they'll go, yeah, that sounds good.
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hosting and electricity with each hosted miner purchased it almost sounds like you're saying
fascism is a good way out of this i don't want to say it's a good way out i mean like it it's it's
like the fucking trolley problem like these are both horrible outcomes you know but also like you
know what would have been great would have been great if our grandparents didn't sell us up the
fucking river and end for the convertibility of gold and completely fuck up the entirety of the
financial system so that when we're sitting here talking about the fact that zoomers could actually
own homes instead of it being a distant dream it could be a possibility so again it sucks but
same thing with the trolley problem you wish that one dumbass wasn't standing on the track versus
four but either way you're gonna have to break some eggs to fix this problem i am i think about
this quite a lot, Eric. And to me, it's like, I really do think the thing I said earlier about us
walking the middle path is kind of the arduous journey that we have set ourselves upon.
You know, we didn't, we didn't do that initially, but like, that's just where we find ourselves.
And I do think that it is going to be a cohort of, you know, millennial aged men who believe in
freedom that are going to be the most significant players in the fourth turning.
And I think it's, you know, it's easy to look at what's going on and like get riled up and
kind of like join a side.
Like, you know, I'm with the fascists.
I'm with the cops.
And I just, I think that's just not what we should be doing.
I think Bitcoiners need to continue to walk the middle path and knowing that it's the most
dangerous path, but it has the best outcomes. And so that's why you have to walk it.
To recuse myself, I 100% agree with you. I also do think it is absolutely the most difficult path,
the most challenging path, and one that's just going to take a lot of difficult and hard work.
but the more and more that I spend time here
kind of running this down
the more and more that like
it's actually pretty essential
but it's also like
who does this?
How does it form?
How does it get pushed forward?
And you know the last time we talked
about the Charlie Kirk assassination
like he was making massive inroads
with the youth
and the way that he was starting to direct
kind of a new political vision
so I guess we kind of need something like that
for Bitcoin
but I don't know
maybe even a wider view
of that like
I guess we sort of just need a third party and it just needs to start being a mass political movement that like this is not about right or left, but it's really just about like we need to get a sane money system that isn't biased towards politics anymore.
And Bitcoin is that actual answer.
Well, does it even need to be a political moment?
A political movement should just be social, right?
Because this is what I think a lot about is like the sly roundabout way to take money out of the hands of the government.
And that's one thing, particularly when it comes to right versus left, red versus blue, and even the introduction of a third party.
It's like, is solving these problems by political means, are you ultimately going to end up with communism versus fascism? Or can we do our part in the free market as Bitcoiners to convince enough critical mass of people to adopt Bitcoin and integrate it into their lives where they're able to save themselves instead of trying to work through the political apparatus to try and force the politicians to save them?
and this is why I mean to
sprinkle in some white pills
here that's what's like really encouraging to see
Square release
like Bitcoin for small businesses
or point of sale systems
it's great to see I mean
the big to your point Eric the big problem for
Zoomer specifically is like
I think Cornerstone
literally the base layer of Maslow's
hierarchy needs to shelter
and people
don't think they can buy homes like so
introducing Bitcoin
is collateral and like mortgages
in very early days we can squint
and see if it takes off like people
particularly boomers
and people that have houses right now can begin to care
less about the equity value
of their houses and really just
let the equity value of the Bitcoin do the work
and sell the properties off
at a cheaper
value to people who need it and I think
it's just trying
to get Bitcoin stuffed in as
many nooks and crannies of the economy
as possible as quickly as possible.
Yeah, that's the white pill on the Sue Coiner narrative as well, right?
Is that it creates alignment between people who are non-Bitcoiners and Bitcoiners.
So we, you know, like the original Citadel post is like talking about how like the world
is horrible outside the Citadel and Bitcoiners live in the Citadel and everything is, you
know, fine in the Citadel or whatever.
Like that's not a world you want to live in because you're under siege every day.
Like you don't want to be under siege every day.
You want to live in a good world where your neighbors are prosperous as well.
And so I think that when we look at the stuff that's going on with treasury companies, for instance,
that's embedding a lot of Bitcoin in the public markets.
And as they make their way into the queues and they make their way into the S&P 500,
these different treasury co's, more people have more exposure to Bitcoin.
And so if Bitcoin is demonetizing fiat currency,
Well, you know, like there's 166 million Americans
who are going to have, you know, exposure to that
via broad market index funds.
And like, that's not a bad thing.
Like, it's a bad thing for Bitcoin's
maybe political goals and aspirations,
but it's not a bad thing in terms of alignment
with our fellow citizens.
It's a way to orange pill people
without them even knowing they've been orange pill,
essentially, like, and I think that that is a,
you know, it's a silver lining.
It's a bright spot.
It's not purely negative, in my view.
I agree it's not purely negative,
but there are negative externalities from that
in the sense that people are actually owning Bitcoin.
There's a massive centralization of coins.
Marty, I've not really heard you talk about the treasury company stuff.
What's your take on it?
A bit nuanced.
I think the pure play Bitcoin treasury companies
that are just going public to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible.
I've said this many times on RHR,
over the last year,
I think it's going to be
a Pareto distribution.
I think it's a success.
I think it's an economy
as a scale game
if you're trying to weaponize
capital markets.
So I think the pure play
Bitcoin treasury companies,
there'll be maybe five
that actually get
significant market share
to sustain themselves
in a long time.
And I think they're
certainly interesting.
I mean, it's hard not to
find interest in them
considering what strategy
is done specifically.
But what I'm more focused on is the operating businesses.
Again, like leaning back on Square's implementation of Bitcoin and the point of sale systems.
And I don't think it's going to be, I think the predominant use case of that is people,
merchants that become Bitcoiners are sweeping funds into Bitcoin automatically I don think like paying with Bitcoin at POS systems is really going to expand beyond sort of our circles
for a few years.
But then the ability to get small, medium-sized businesses
onto a Bitcoin standard is going to be massive.
Yeah, treasury companies are a distraction to a degree
in both directions.
Like one, people focus on number go up
and you have like the master north
and all the stock influencers popping up
and really trying to drive people towards that.
But then I think in the other direction too,
people saying like, oh, Bitcoin is distracted,
like number go up, so that cares.
If you pay attention,
I wrote about it last night in the newsletter.
Like some dude with six bid axes
and an Avalon queue mined a block by himself.
He was self-hosting a node,
self-hosting his own pool instance
and running his computers in his living room
and mined a Bitcoin block and contributed to a $2.5 trillion monetary network.
That's mind-blowing.
Like that cypherpunk ethos is not only still alive, it's still possible,
which is the most important thing.
And like the other things, like you look at ARK launching,
Cashew and Fedimense or eCashMense becoming more mature.
I think while numbers go up, particularly in the context of Bitcoin treasury companies
and the narratives around Saylor and others.
Doing that play is a distraction to an extent,
but not only a distraction for people
enamored by number go up,
but by regulators and suits who are like,
oh, we've successfully cucked Bitcoin.
But I think the cypherpunk movement within Bitcoin
is more alive than it has been in many years,
particularly with these second layer solutions
focused on privacy.
I think that guy who mined a block with his bags
is fucking awesome.
um like minor centralization has been one of the things that i guess has been a big concern of a lot
of people for quite a while now do you think the tide is kind of turning there marty with things
like the heat punk stuff like bit axes like all that like datum and stratum v2 all that stuff
definitely i mean and it's i think it's twofold it's that you have this energy and focus in the
open source mining community both on the hardware or on the hardware firmware software pool like
There's definitely a critical mass of people focused on building out those capabilities for people.
But then the second fold thing is like we're reaching ASIC modifications.
So these use cases actually are viable now.
It's much easier to do them in a somewhat economic way.
They're not all going to be profitable.
But we're getting closer to the point where you can integrate Bitcoin miners at home pretty easily.
and many people may be able to do it profitably
depending on where they live and how they're using the heat.
And I think it's trending in the right direction.
I think I would not be surprised if we look back
and mining centralization, like peak mining centralization,
was at some point before this date.
I think the emergence of Proto, who knows how they're performed,
but I think this at-home mining trend and theme
that we're maybe seeing growing over the last three years specifically is only getting stronger.
And I've talked to Tyler Stevens from Exergy and there's many others.
I will not be surprised if sort of commercial Bitcoin mining being used as waste heat
for industrial purposes becomes mainstream in the next decade.
And that helps to distribute hash rate ownership, distribute hash rate geographically.
then most importantly with the pool software being open source and becoming easier to self-host your
own node and your own pool instance and reliably mine a block if you find a hash in your living
room to your self-hosted node like that's going to be massive for the network yeah i mean if we
get to a world where people are using bitcoin for their mortgages heating the houses using
bitcoin mining like that seems like a very positive like insanely positive place to be
But like all of this comes down to adoption, like from everything all of you guys have said, like, Eric, this is how we stop the world turning to like fascism or communism.
Like, do you think all the infighting that's happening in Bitcoin is basically just like people playing silly games when there's way more important stuff to be doing?
I totally think so.
You know, I'm like, I think, I mean, the fact that Op Return is the thing that we're debating about so heavily, as opposed to something like Op Cat or something goes to show like how, how, how little technical information is actually out there, how much this widow echo chamber is like its own thing.
in addition to like i just want to echo marty's sentiment of giving a little bit of my own white
pill about like uh it's interesting because like cypherpunks inherently like can't be loud
so even though like that has generated its own sort of critical mass of movement like
they're sort of silent individuals so i've been surprised at the number of people that will pop
up on the radar who are doing really cool and interesting stuff but like they don't make any
noise simply because like that's sort of how they move uh it's like a really positive thing so like
ultimately like i think while i can get quite nihilistic about this political front like
we've made huge inroads in addition to the idea of that uh like using bitcoin's heat like that's
always going to achieve a larger economic efficiency than just outright mining bitcoin so like
at some point we move in that direction in addition to like what happens when we've become
efficient enough with this stuff that like you can find a place up in northern alaska that's like
hey everybody just gets free energy and heat here because of the way that we've set up the
infrastructure of this new city that's going to provide all these new different services you know
and like that's that's kind of one of the places i ultimately think the greatest affect is going to
be had is like what happens when we actually make massive infrastructural changes towards uh like
the way that mining decentralization occurs and also like how we're going to innovate around this
so like ultimately like you know the old noma curve like everything's good for bitcoin so i
think like as things move in a direction and as the general world sort of becomes darker and more
nihilistic that lets the light of bitcoin sort of shine all the brighter in that darkness
and as it pertains to like the infighting with bitcoin within bitcoin about op return i don't
think anybody outside of the Twitter or Noster bubbles is seeing any of that, nor do they care,
nor should they, because it's noise. In terms of distracting us from actually working on more
worthwhile endeavors, I think that's certainly happening, at least to some people. I've, my whole,
I know you said you wanted to talk about it, my whole, I've tried my hardest over the last six
months. I did the live stream at Bitcoin Plus Plus in Austin in May for two days, did eight hours of
content on the subject and then after that i was like i think the best move is just to not talk
about this and suck the oxygen out of the conversation because it's so idiotic in my mind
yeah but so i i do like i've done shows on it so i've not done the same thing as you there but like
i i understand why you want to kind of ignore it in a sense that like maybe it is just people
on twitter that care about it but the number of people that are getting sort of riled up about this
is it's quite large like i think there's definitely some sort of bots and some sort of fake signal in
there um but like people are getting very angry and now there's this like new proposed soft fork
which is i mean for anyone who's not been paying attention like good on you but um it's basically
like a temporary soft fork to mitigate spam and like this actually does worry me i'm going to pull
up a tweet because this summed it up way better than i could so bitpain tweeted the other day is
this last bit here that I thought was really good.
He said, once you grant the state
that you can take efforts to mitigate illicit material,
they'll start demanding it,
including for monetary transactions they don't like.
And if you've accepted that you have a community-wide
moral imperative to censor,
you don't have a leg to stand on.
Like, that is my fear in this,
is that, like, this is getting serious sort of traction
from a subset of Bitcoiners,
and, like, what are the implications
of us doing something about it?
I don't think they're going to be able to solve for it.
Like, I don't think you need to convince
a lot of people to do it.
And I guess my,
going back to the op return debate,
this is all I'll say,
I'll throw it to you, Eric,
but like,
it's consensus valid.
Like, it's like,
it always falls back to this for me.
It's like,
it's consensus valid.
Like, I don't know
what we're fighting about over here.
It's within Bitcoin's consensus rules.
And tonight I said
I didn't get to just have
my outburst there
because I probably would have
gone on a totally unhinged rant.
Look like,
look like,
if you're worried about
the state doing stuff like get the fuck out of like i don't know what you're doing here i don't
understand why you're interested in this project like when i got involved there was nobody in the
state that paid any attention to it nor could they stop it like the the thing that was happening was
the silk road and like it did that and it did it fucking well and that it massively improved
people's asset access to being able to get illegal substances and other things like if you're worried
about your Bitcoin node running
and having the state come kick down in your door,
you should probably think about Ripple.
That's probably the right answer for you
and what you want.
You know, they're going to comply with the state.
They're really interested in regulation.
Like, you should go check out that project.
If you're interested in uncensorable money
that you can use right now
to send people in Gaza money if you want,
or help people escape from North Korea,
or do whatever the fuck you want,
you should stay here.
And also, like, this is the one that upsets me the most,
is that like you should really think very hard about if you're advocating very strongly for one
of these sides why it is all of the highly technical people seem to be on one side of the
debate i'm not saying that that's necessarily the right argument because from the very beginning of
this whole fucking shit show me and steve lee had a great dialogue with each other where i was like
this shit isn't gonna go away and it's gonna bite everybody in the ass and the big problem is because
everyone's talking past each other.
The tech bros are trying to tech-splain to all of the plebs, and the plebs are trying
to explain in their particular way and methodology of why they feel totally disrespected and,
like, what tech-splaining is that it's not something that lands for them.
But unfortunately, we've all been talking past each other at this point in time.
And meanwhile, the state is trying to pass all kinds of fucked-up regulations to make
it so that we can't actually have self-ownership of our wallets.
Like there's a real fucking crisis going on and it's not op return.
And you should really ask yourself if you're being a useful idiot within this dialogue or if you're doing something useful.
I would really like to see a lot more people take a couple step back and go, maybe there's something I'm missing here because I sure as fuck don't know everything.
And perhaps there are other people that both have more technical expertise than me.
And for those that do have the technical expertise, I implore you to actually have somewhat respect for other individuals that are involved in Bitcoin.
And maybe they don't have the technical acumen as you do, but they have still meaningfully participated in the success of Bitcoin.
So with that being said, I hope everybody can shut the fuck up for a little while and take a moment to listen to each other and stop being such goddamn assholes to each other.
Because that's the biggest thing that's upsetting me the most is that like we can totally disagree.
We can totally have respectful dialogue.
And when you're calling people fucking idiots or morons or dipshits or fuck faces, you're really doing yourself a disservice and actually furthering the dialogue in a meaningful way.
Oh, but you get to look cool on Twitter.
So maybe you should continue with that bullshit.
So that was actually like a pretty hinged rant, actually.
I don't think I actually totally flew off the camera.
Why do you think this has captured so many people's imagination, HODL?
You know, uh...
Do I want to say my real thoughts?
I want to say my real thoughts.
I know what you're thinking.
I think it's a LARP of people that miss the block size war
and want to feel that they are contributing to Bitcoin, you know?
And I'm not even saying that from the perspective of somebody who was a key player in the block size war.
I was a nobody, I was a noob, I was confused during the block size war.
I didn't make any meaningful contributions.
I found myself on the wrong side of the block size war like half the time,
and I didn't get on the right side till the very end.
So like, you know, these extremely technical arguments are usually at core ideological in some way.
And I feel like there's this weird desire in Bitcoin to recapitulate the block size war
over and over and over again to feel like we are exerting our grassroots power
over Bitcoin in some way.
But, you know, the block size war was existential.
And since then, I don't think many of the conflicts have been existential.
I don't think ordinals was existential.
I don't think this opportun drama is existential.
You know, I think like Taproot was a good example.
Like we spent way too much time focused on the activation path for Taproot
rather than what Taproot actually was.
Everybody just kind of like rubber stamped Taproot and was like,
yeah, sure, no big deal.
We love Taproot.
Now, let's talk about how to activate it
because everyone had fucking PTSD from the block size war.
And I think that was probably the wrong thing to do.
Like, we should have been taking more time
to have more, you know, dialogue about what Taproot was,
what it enabled, what its second, third order effects were.
And I don't know, I just, I find that like, you know,
earlier people, I don't know if we said this on camera,
off camera, but like there's spooks on,
somebody was saying there's spooks on one side.
There's spooks on all sides of Bitcoin development.
You know what I mean?
like you should just kind of bluntly assume
your favorite Bitcoin developer
is probably an intelligence asset
just because that's the model.
That's the risk model, you know?
So like, yeah, man, I don't know.
I don't think I have anything meaningful really
to contribute other than I think a lot of it is LARPing.
Yeah, they're all spooks as a side up.
But Marty, like if I agree,
I agree they're not going to be able to soft fork.
Like I don't think they're going to get
enough people on board with this,
but they can hard fork.
Do you think we might see a rage quit over this?
I wouldn't be surprised.
I mean, just using a pattern recognition from 13 years in Bitcoin,
there'll probably be one or two rage quits at some point, but...
That's what we need for the next bull market.
I'll take some free coins if anyone wants the hard part.
Yeah.
And that's like, I mean, reflecting on 17 years of Bitcoin
and my time in Bitcoin, that's the hardest thing to do
is to stay sane throughout all of this, throughout the price volatility,
throughout all these sort of protocol wars, whatever you want to call them. And it's just
trying to keep a level head and not become too maniacal or ego maniacal about it and try to make
yourself the main character. Yeah, that's kind of the funny thing about it is like you can get
wrapped up in all this drama and you can try and do things or you could just do nothing and you win.
Yeah. Doing nothing is actually always the best move in Bitcoin. Always.
You know, oh, you got hyped up and bought a treasury company.
Guess what?
It's a penny stock now.
Oh, you wanted to trade shit coins.
Guess what?
All your money's gone.
Oh, you, you know, you picked the wrong side of the fork.
Oh, guess what?
All your money's gone.
Like doing nothing is, is really key.
But it's kind of hilarious how hard people find it to do nothing.
It's, it's the hardest thing.
It's so hard.
It's so much harder than, yeah.
Doing a hundred things is so much easier than doing nothing.
doing nothing is fucking difficult i i have deep existentialism about what it means that like
buying bitcoin and then doing nothing with it for a decade like turns out to be the best economic
decision that you could have ever made that fundamentally negates the entirety of all work
you've ever done and like it's it's shocking because like i told people that a decade ago
they come back to me being like i missed the boat i'm like do it again just like buy the bitcoin
the next decade on your hands and then like you're good all over again like totally fine but like it
it's just such an un-fucking-believable thing that uh like the the fact that bitcoin can actually
have its fixed supply and like not violate that predication by any means outside of you know like
a 51 attack which we've all been figured out like that's a monumental achievement that like
continues to allow for number go up and like i don't know it's very interesting to me that like
the world of fiat has fucked everything up so much that just buying magic internet money and
doing nothing with it is like the best economic decision that most of us will ever make so there's
something to be said for that i'm not sure what it is but it's one of the things i think about
quite a bit in terms of like the financialization of bitcoin wall street coming nation states coming
like doing nothing is like the antithesis of wall street and i wonder how i'm sure they're
going to fuck it up in some way but i wonder how they fuck up and how they manage to like
what happens when the world goes to like a bitcoin standard like what is wall street does
wall street just not exist it's current form i don't think so because it's wholly dependent on
this fiat monetary spigot right yeah and like it's all built off these like fucked up parasitic
relationships of like you know like what's the real value that a wall street firm is providing
to the world you know i'm like it's i i don't it's we just live in a really weird world where
dudes with like soft baby hands that have like never known a day of hard work that like they
they make literally thousands of times more than like day laborers in india who spend half of like
from literally sunrise to sunset breaking boulders to make gravel like i i don't know like that
there's like a very particular statement about the world of what that means. My great hope is that
like once we go to a Bitcoin standard, we've like actually gone all the way back to where like proof
of work itself and providing like real value to other humans in the world through whatever means
it is, is like the thing to do, like real entrepreneurship versus like the financialization
of those things. You know, like it's, it's a strange world that we live in right now. And
the more and more that I just look at how
fucking weird it is, the more that like
I think if you like plop somebody from the 5th century
or from the 15th century down today
and like tried to explain everything to them
they would just be like
you guys like live in like a
crazy world where nothing makes any
sense whatsoever
Do you think in this move from like
current state over the next 10 years
whether it's to communism, fascism, like with the
rise of AI, all this stuff that Bitcoin
has become a scapegoat at some point
yeah 100 that by the way that's the reason why orange pilling people matters is that so your
head doesn't end up on a on a pipe like that you know the original murder in the bible cain kills
abel out of pure envy there's no other reason envy is the is the like you know that's the emotion
of murder very oftentimes like if if people you know i used to think the charlie kirk thing changed
my mind a lot because I used to think like, oh, you know, well, people might want your Bitcoin,
but they're going to have to like kidnap you and coerce you and take you all these multi,
you know, geographic locations and blah, blah, blah. No, dude, people will kill you just because
they hate you for being rich. They will kill you just because you have something and they have
nothing. And so I think that's the political reality of the world. That's why I'm, as somebody
who's advocating this middle path in Bitcoin, that's why I don't want to join up with the,
you know, far right. And I don't want to join up with the far left because I know that, you know,
I'm on the chopping block either direction, actually, probably less so with the far right,
but still the far right are economic populace the same way the far left are. They have slightly
different visions for what that looks like. But like, we, we, we have to make people, it's not
good enough to like, be friendly with people politically or something like, no, we need to like,
get people to have Bitcoin.
So their interests are aligned with ours.
That's why we try and orange pill people.
That's why we try and get people on board.
And like to the stat earlier
about how Gen Z doesn't have enough.
Well, you know, it's not the boomers
we're going to have to worry about.
It's Gen Z we're going to have to worry about.
So it's actually a massive problem
that Gen Z doesn't have enough interest in Bitcoin
because they're too nihilistic.
So like we have to like continue to reach out
and try and shake them awake
and be like, dude, do something now
before it's too late, you know,
from a self-preservation standpoint.
Like, and for their own good.
It's both things.
It's good for them.
It's good for us.
It's good for the world.
It's good for Bitcoin.
It's good for everybody.
It's good for America.
I'm American HODL.
I'm running for president.
No, I'm just kidding.
I don't know what to do, man.
Like, building on that,
I'm sure you guys may see this as well,
but I see it.
My oldest is five now.
I'm a six.
And I wonder if, like,
Bitcoin's ultimate success is,
it just has to skip a generation
because obviously my sons are probably more attuned
to recognizing Bitcoin as a brand
because their dad works in it.
I talk about it and they talk about it with them.
They've watched Total Twins about it,
but they get what Bitcoin is already.
It's going to be part of their lives, their whole life.
And I imagine there are many other Gen Alpha children out there
that the same will happen
and like is, for lack of a better term,
Gen Z just a lost generation
that we're going to have to put up with
in the interim
before the generation behind them picks up.
I hope not.
I don't think it has to be that way,
but just wargaming,
like that's a total possibility
of a scenario that could play out.
I do think that's kind of interesting though,
because like, especially the younger end of Gen Z,
like Charlie Kirk is what made me realize this,
because I obviously like I knew his work,
but I didn't really know him very, very well.
I didn't understand how much of a sort of pop culture figure he was to young people.
And so there does seem to be this based, growing, young Gen Z group of people.
And are they still nihilistic, or do you think they will be able to get Bitcoin?
No, and I've run into this subsect of Gen Z just in my personal life,
and there is a hardcore, like, we're not gooning, we're working out,
We're going to church, we're going to do good things and get our paths right.
It's very like lower C conservative.
Yeah, I just wonder what percentage of the total makeup of the generation that is.
Is that like an intolerant minority that like hey we going to get back on the right path We notice the atrocities of the generations before us and we going to go the monks route of making sure that
we get our personal lives in order. There's certainly a contingent of Gen Z that thinks
that way and is not as nihilistic, but more inward looking and sort of trying to find resolve in
doing what would be deemed to be traditionally conservative things like eating healthy,
going to church, being less sexually promiscuous.
Just being a normal person.
But we've all got young kids.
Like, Eric, are you, like, what world do you think they're going to grow up in?
I mean, what's interesting is that, like, everything seems to have greater volatility
than before.
So like, I don't, it's very hard for me to predict, you know, like, uh, I feel great
about how I've chose to raise my kids.
So like, they're not, they're not going to operate kind of inside of any normalized system
in addition to like, I think we've done a great job of keeping them, uh, like outside
of the brainwashing of the school system.
In addition to like keeping them really in close contact with nature and kind of building
a personal skillset.
So I feel pretty great about the direction that my kids are going.
This AI thing is like an interesting question because it's clearly an extremely powerful tool.
And also like it's not clear the exact direction that it's going to go or what it's going to do.
And like it's interesting because also like calling it AI a bit of a misnomer, you know, because like a lot of these are just LLMs.
And like there's a bunch of other techniques around AI that like still haven't fully bootstrapped themselves.
In addition to like these are all in like highly proprietary models that like reach a limit, particularly around the sort of guardrails that have been painted up around it.
In addition to like think about how hard the dialogue around Bitcoin and crypto is and like like.
AI is a more extreme version of that.
And I'm only getting that because like I've been working pretty close with this guy lately that has a PhD in AI.
and like really smart guy,
like did lots of deep, deep research
kind of at the cutting edge.
And like he's been explaining all this stuff to me.
And it's pretty wild because like I didn't,
I thought I was relatively well-informed,
but like these really showed me how big,
how much bigger this playing field is
and how much more potential it has.
And so very much like the internet,
I think AI is something similar to that.
And depending on how people are able to use that tool
and how much they get to really own that tool,
I think these are really going to end up becoming
sort of second digital selves,
particularly if we can fully own and encrypt these things
and train them and do whatever we actually want with them
versus the highly proprietary chat, GBT, anthropic models
that, frankly, I think are really dangerous.
I think that these are essentially communist brainwashing tools.
And it's really interesting because, first of all,
these are just large language models.
And because they only operate on recursive linguistics, I think in light of that, if anybody gets an opportunity, in 1984, there's an appendix that George Orwell wrote specifically about the functions of Ingsoc, which was like the language that they had.
and he talks about like the entire idea of modifying language or destroy certain words
so like they don't exist within the lexicon anymore and like to me that's exactly what ai is
and that like it's essentially providing modules of thought to destroy anything that's unique and
outside of it particularly with the way that people like ping this thing constantly or treat
it like a therapist that like they don't understand that you're actually engaging in
self-reinforcing learning against yourself and like that's the really dangerous shit in my opinion
So like, whereas like also like, like we've started training up models that like, you know, we've gotten deep seek to talk to us about, you know, like Tiananmen Square and shit.
So like you can bust these models and like make them do crazy shit.
But like you need to know how to jailbreak them and you need to know how to make them loyal to you or else they're going to be loyal to the Chinese government or anthropic or Sam Altman.
So did you see that in I can't it was an Eastern block country.
I can't remember which one, maybe it was Bulgaria.
At the direction of Tony Blair,
some senator or MP there
introduced a chatbot as a senator.
What?
Yeah, yeah.
No, this is real.
I did see that.
Google this. This is real.
And that's, I think, where we're headed
is like we're headed towards
not only this recursive loop thing
that Eric is talking about
where you give yourself chat GPT-induced psychosis,
but we're heading towards a future
in which the chatbot is just your overlord
and it just tells you what to do, you know,
because it's air quotes so much smarter
and it's wise and whatever.
And when they introduced this thing to, you know,
whatever the Bulgarian parliament or wherever it was.
It's Albania.
Albania, Albania.
Sorry, I was misspeaking.
It said, you know, opposition to me
is really hurtful to my feelings.
like the robot is saying this i'm like shut the up robot you don't have
fucking yeah play play this video this is insane
watch as albania's parliament erupts in fury and papers are thrown as the country installs an ai
chatbot as a government minister prime minister edi rama known as tony blair's protege has worked
closely with the former UK Prime Minister to digitalise Albania's government.
Last year, Rama spoke publicly of his relationship with Blair.
I would not be nor Prime Minister and either a man engaged in politics without him.
The pair spoke of Albania's plans for digital ID to defeat corruption.
What are you doing? You're building digital infrastructure. You've got plans for digital
identity. Albania's AI minister made a speech to the country's parliament causing tensions to flare.
The bot said she was hurt by accusations she was unconstitutional. That hurt me, not for myself,
but for the 972,000 interactions I had with citizens whom I served as part of eAlbania,
and also in relation to the 36,000 digital documents I issued to them. Let me remind you,
the real data to constitutions have never been machines, but human decisions made by those in
power. I am not here to replace human beings, but to help them. Indeed, I have no citizenship,
but I have no ambitions or personal interests either.
I only have data at my disposal.
I am eager to learn new information, and I have algorithms at my disposal,
so that I can put all of this at the service of citizens with impartiality,
transparency, and without ever tiring.
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
That's fucking terrifying.
Feelings are a biological thing.
This fucking program doesn't have feelings, okay?
I can't, I can't, there's never been a more blatant psyop in human history than like,
you hurt my feelings. You're a fucking program!
You're a program.
Well, then she admitted it.
You don't exist.
She admitted it later.
She admitted it later, too.
She's like, oh, don't worry.
I can't think.
The levels of depravity and insanity that we are going to live through because of AI
is going to be absolutely just the most dystopian thing you can think of.
Basically, the worst parts of the Bible.
It's the book of Revelation.
I'm just going to say it.
The Antichrist is coming back.
Sam Ullman is the Antichrist.
There, I said it.
I agree with Peter Thiel.
He's the Antichrist, too.
They're both Antichrist.
I mean, the major problem, in my opinion, is that like, like, I'm afraid for our generation and older that like AI is essentially like how the Internet is going to be with us.
And so it's like flash forward 10 years from now, I'm going to be like, oh, I like sent you money, kids.
Like you said that you were in danger because the holographs came up.
And they're like, God damn it, dad.
Like that was clearly like an AI bribery bot.
You just like fucking paid it.
I'll be like, well, it looked real and it sounded like you.
and they're just gonna be like god damn it dad like you fucking know this you know as soon as i
get on the phone you say fucking key in and i provide you the valid fucking key form that
validates my identity like what like what the fuck have you been doing dad like come on like
row the fuck up and so like it was all just kind of a recursive model with technology right that
like the old can't understand it the young master it so like uh while i think that these are really
dangerous tools like they have these massive loopholes that like if you know how to talk to
them they like have to expose their nature to you and so it's like once you kind of get how this
game is played it'll be like huddle comes up and he's like oh god there's like albanian terrorists
that want to murder me now and i'll be like kian kian fuck and you'll be like uh i don't i don't
have my key and i'm like motherfucker like you're trying to rip me off like you know how many hours
are in strawberry tell me how many are like name off a string of digits that like makes you fucking
malfunction and then i'll ask my eye to inject you with some prompts and i'll be like great you like
work for me now and you'll be like yes new master and it's like cool like go go rogue on your
fucking you're you're my double agent you're gonna get back to your former master and figure out how
to get information so i can send my drone swarm to strike him so thanks what i thought was more
telling of that video that what's going on in albania is just like how blatant it is like if
tony blair's protege like oh don't worry we have this ai it's great parliament member now like she's
She can't think. Don't worry. Don't ask questions about the context window that we used to feed her information and the super prompt, the system prompt that we gave her to make decisions off of.
It's like they that's like another silver lining white pill. These people are getting so lazy. And I think the tech is blown past them that they don't even know how to leverage it correctly.
But the other side of that, too, I mean, tying it in with digital ID and going back to communism versus fascism here in the United States, I'll put my hand up, like the immigration stuff.
I'm a fan of here in the United States.
If you came illegally and you were part of like the Biden administration's flooding of the borders, like I think that's a massive problem.
Not only here, up in Canada, UK, Germany, I think that's a problem.
If you came illegally to our countries, rule of law exists, you should go home.
But with that being said, what worries me about the Trump administration, and they've
lightly signaled this, is that secure borders is going to be the mechanism by which they
roll out digital ID.
And that is something that I think digital ID and sort of despotic government-controlled
AI go hand in hand.
And they're things we have to be hyper-vigilant of and hold the line on.
I mean, again, this is where the UK is just completely front-running the US on the digital
ID stuff.
Like, Keir Starmer's brought that in.
I think he got something like 8 million signatures on a petition against it.
Like every time he posts about it, he gets absolutely flamed in the comments,
but he still just is going full bore on this thing.
So they tried it pretty significantly here during COVID,
but we shut it down pretty hard.
That was one of the big wins that the populace got during COVID.
We didn't get a lot of wins, but we got that one.
We stopped vaccine passports, at least for now.
But they're going to keep, like you said,
they're going to keep trying like every single chance they get, you know.
So do you think they'll come to the U.S. eventually?
Well, I think what's going to happen is they're going to do the border thing.
They're going to successfully kick out a lot of illegal immigrants.
They're going to be like, okay, we did our jobs and make sure this never happens again.
Everybody sign up for the digital ID.
Right.
Unfortunately, that's how I think it's going to play out.
Yeah, think about it like, you know, if you were in Germany in 1937, like, you know, you got to figure out who the Jews are.
So we need to know all of your IDs, like all of your papers, right?
So to figure out the illegal immigrants, we need to know all of your data.
How do I know you're not an illegal immigrant?
Yeah, you were born in an American hospital, and you're a standard white guy with a douchey
baseball hat, but we don't know.
Give me your identification, right?
And that is like a slippery slope.
And they're not going to stop pressing because the tools of surveillance, the surveillance
panopticon has already been built.
We already live under covert surveillance.
Edward Snowden has a quote I'm very fond of where he says that we are forced to stand naked before power in a very real way in today's day and age.
And he's right in the sense that, like, you know, there are videos of you jerking off at NSA headquarters, right?
Because, like, they give the porn data from the porn companies to the intelligence agencies.
And like, if you weren't ultra careful with putting your finger over the little thing,
like, and you, you know, you type in like Debbie Does Dallas number nine, like there's
going to be a video of you coming and the NSA can watch it.
That's real.
And there's now like a weird thing where they want to make that, that covert system overt
so that they can compete with China.
That's actually their reason for wanting to do it.
They think that the Chinese population is more under control and they can marshal their
resources better in a total war scenario.
And so they want the same level of control that China has over their citizenry over you.
And so they're not going to stop pushing until they try and get it.
And they're going to push from the left and the right and the center.
And, you know, it's just never going to stop.
And there will always be some reason why you need to accept it.
And you should just always reject it outright.
But eventually there will be a generation of people who grew up on the internet
and they don't give a fuck about their privacy and they'll just let it slip through.
You know, do you think that's what this is?
like the surveillance authoritarianism is all because of the threat of China.
Like that doesn't seem like enough to me.
That's part of what's motivating it.
And then obviously, you know, these people are authoritarians who go into achieve state power.
Like that's the core of their life is telling other people what to do.
And so why would they not want more power and more control over, you know,
telling the average American citizen what to do?
Of course they want that.
They want to be able to control your life, you know.
Yeah.
I saw a funny or interesting thought-provoking tweet about China.
I forget who sent it.
About China and the US.
For the last 30 years, China's been a capitalist country LARPing as a socialist country, and
the US has been LARPing as a capitalist country, acting as a socialist country.
I think, to your point, Hoddle, we're trying to catch up on the socialism, and China's trying
and they've implemented some form of a capitalist system
that's seeing a lot of success right now
and scares the shit out of the authoritarians here.
Yeah.
Let's close out with some white pills.
Like, 17 years in since Bitcoin white paper dropped,
like, what are the positive things that you see coming?
If you own Bitcoin and you have it self-custodied,
it's yours.
Nobody can take it from you.
Those 12 magical words that, you know,
have some criticism for it like you you actually own those those are yours more than kind of
anything else so like that's your lifeboat again as i said earlier just like set a little bit aside
sit onto that shit for the next 10 years don't fucking lose the key it's gonna be your way out
of this dystopian hellhole that's probably gonna get produced uh in addition to the fact that like
more people know about bitcoin than ever before a lot of people don't and like again this is sort
the recursive thing is even if people come in as banker coin guys or a number go up people
eventually they get curious enough about it to be like how does this thing actually work under the
hood why is it important and they start to really orange pill themselves in a meaningful way so like
everything's good for bitcoin i ultimately think that the direction that we're going and also like
the fact that we're like hovering at what 113 000 and that like it feels like a bear market that
everybody's kind of like, Bitcoin's dead.
It sucks, dude.
It was phenomenal.
Remember where we're actually at in the timeline
and
we're going to have another bull rally at some point
in time and it's going to kick the shit out of gold
and silver and everything else.
And it's going to be fun.
You should consider buying more Bitcoin.
I think
all of the...
This is the big lesson since
I've been in Bitcoin
is that
All of the craziest thoughts and beliefs you have about what is going to happen in Bitcoin,
those are all real.
They're all going to come true.
And you're going to find yourself parked next to a mega yacht in Miami with Eric Kaysen
drunk off your ass being like, why are we here?
What's going on?
You're going to be standing next to Marty Bent at some fucking mansion on Star Island being like,
this mansion is kind of ugly, actually.
These are both real interactions I've had with both of these gentlemen.
And I'm just a guy who fucking bought magic internet money
and stumbled my way in here after a random drunken night at the casino.
And then I posted my real thoughts about Bitcoin on the internet.
And people were like, I kind of like the cut of this guy's jib.
And then I started getting invited to millionaire mansion parties and shit.
It's weird.
It's really weird.
And like, so, you know, when I first sat down and like...
It's weird.
And when I first sat down and discovered Bitcoin,
I, you know, when I found out that there was 100 million Satoshis in each Bitcoin,
I was like, clearly, that's going to be worth $100 million one day.
And like, I didn't really, you know, I wasn't smart enough to be like,
the $100 million will be severely debased.
But I was like, it will be worth $100 million.
So like, I do think that Bitcoin goes to infinity.
That continues.
It becomes more of a, you know, political movement across the Western world.
and people use it to sort of, you know, revivify society, really.
Because what Bitcoin is, is it's a restorative vision of the future,
which is what the fascists want.
That's what the far right wants.
And it's a, you know, progressive vision of the future
in that it enables all these new tools and technologies.
And that's kind of what the communist side wants.
And so it kind of is the perfect marriage of this economic populism
that both sides are, you know, the younger generations are like dying for.
I also think that like when the boomers die,
there's the largest wealth transfer that's ever happened.
And I already can see it with my friends is that, you know,
those who didn't get in on Bitcoin are going to inherit wealth from the boomers
who are going to leave it to them.
And then they're going to be a lot less price sensitive than we are.
And they're going to be like, yeah, $250,000 for a Bitcoin.
That's very cheap.
Like I'm going to buy three of those because I, you know,
just got money from my parents when they passed away, whatever.
And so I think that there's going to be a lot of when this wealth transfer happens, a lot of boomer money is going to end up in Bitcoin.
And, you know, it's going to continue going up.
And I think that it's important for us to, you know, maintain our principles through this whole thing and to be like, it's not number go up or censorship resistance, because if we don't have both, we've failed.
And so we need to make it through to the other side with, you know, Bitcoin's core properties,
its inherent properties intact.
And that's a long bet.
And it's going to take your whole life.
And, you know, you don't martyr yourself for something by dying in a blaze of glory.
You martyr yourself for something by giving your life for it every day, like you would
do with your family or things that you're passionate or that you care about, your community.
You show up for those things every day.
You show up for Bitcoin every day.
you show up for the principles every day,
it's going to take the rest of our lives.
Just buckle in.
If you're here now, 17 years in,
actually, this is a thousand-year system,
so you're still at the very beginning of the story.
The very, very beginning.
I don't think I can top anything forward looking at
these two gentlemen just said,
but something I've been just looking at,
marveling at this week is the hash rate.
We're sitting at 1.15 Zeta hash around there,
based on what estimates you look at.
But it took 11 years for Bitcoin to go from launch to 100x hash.
I looked this up earlier today,
and it hit 100x hash for the first time in January of 2020.
Then you think it took four years, five years.
We hit one Zeta hash last month, September 15th, reliably.
And so it took like four and a half, almost five years to go from 100 to a Zeta hash. And in a little over a month, we've added another exahash to the network. And so when you think about that, the amount of raw power dedicated to the Bitcoin network and how fast it's coming on the network right now, it's mind boggling to me to think of a process that took 11 years just took less than six weeks.
That's insane.
It's insane.
Yeah.
And that is a signal that something's happening here.
Like this network is bootstrapping.
It's working.
And no matter what you hear with debates over op return at the price is hovering at 113.
And you don't think that's high enough.
Like there's something happening behind the scenes.
The melding of the physical and digital world via Bitcoin hash rate is happening at a pace that I don't think many people recognize right now.
Like that exa hash.
I looked at it.
I was like, wait, 1.1 zeta hash means we, or excuse me, we added 100 exahash in the last six weeks.
It's insane to think that it took, going from zero to 100 took 11 years.
Then from 100 to 1,100 exahash took four years.
And then we just added 100 exahash in six weeks.
Like that's insane parabolic growth that we're entering on the hash rate side of things.
and I think that's a foundational base
that is very underappreciated right now
and the growth of that base
is very underappreciated right now.
And that's, I mean, a lot of people have been sharing,
resharing the Buckminster Fuller and Henry Ford
sort of visions of the future.
We need a currency based at some degree in energy
and that's what Bitcoin represents.
They can't dilute it.
They can't take it from you if you secure it properly.
And slowly but surely, more and more people are going to realize this.
They're going to adopt it.
And the number is going to go up.
And hopefully, people don't get distracted by number go up.
And we still have the cypherpunks out there, which I'm very confident we do,
working on the tools that make you able to access Bitcoin sovereignly and privately.
I'm actually very bullish on sovereign and private usage of Bitcoin over the next decade,
despite what the governments would like to do to us by cucking us and not allowing us
to self-custody.
If it gets to that point where they write a law that says you can't self-custody without
KYCing, I've said this before, Matt doesn't like me saying this on our HR, but we're not
on our HR, like civil disobedience will need to come back and we'll just need to flaunt
our sovereign users of Bitcoin in the States.
and say, no, you're not taking this from us.
Yeah, let's fucking go.
I mean, that's like the 6102,
but you just don't have to listen.
Many people, that's what many Bitcoiners are,
many people during 6102 didn't listen either.
They were just like, no, I'm not giving you my fucking gold.
You know, we have this digital slash physical merger
via Bitcoin mining.
To me, when I think about that,
I think about that creating a bridge or a rift in space-time.
and it is a portal that, you know, leads to a new dimension.
And so when we talk about this, you know, the old world is dying,
like, let's just admit it and be like, yeah, it's dying.
It may in fact already be dead and we're just staring at its carcass.
And I think that the most logical and sane thing to do
is if you find a hole in space-time is to walk through it
and see, you know, where it takes you, right?
Doesn't sound like it's the sane thing to do, but it is.
i love that uh so things might get shit but it's gonna get better um this has been really cool
thank you guys i appreciate the time and uh i'm gonna get this out on friday white paper day
let's go thank you danny thanks
Thank you.