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Eventually, all companies will hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

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Day one, it's about acquiring as much Bitcoin as we can.

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But we want to be an absolutely integral part of the Bitcoin infrastructure system.

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Total market cap of Bitcoin is roughly $2 trillion at the moment.

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We are talking about a total pool of wealth that is in the hundreds of trillions.

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Bitcoin is this like 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

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while all of these tiny little marmosets are scurrying around.

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And the gorilla's just sitting there doing nothing.

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I want him to get up and start beating his chest.

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If you don't engage with politicians, they just make bad laws.

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There's no incentives for politicians to understand,

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but it will take away some of their power.

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But at some point, they may realize that they can actually

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get more money and more power by embracing it rather than resisting it.

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And I think that's a tipping point.

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Cheers.

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Cheers.

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Nice to meet you again.

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Welcome to the new What Bitcoin Did.

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this is your first appearance

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it is thank you very much for having me back

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the poshest man in bitcoin

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is that still true?

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I think so

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I can't think of someone more posh

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yeah

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I mean we need

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I mean my mother did have a double barreled name

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before she got married so

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there you go

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and my grandfather was

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what's now the mayor of London

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so

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your grandfather was the mayor of London?

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well

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he was the head of the GLC

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the general under council

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who's a conservative politician

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Bernard

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Brooke Partridge

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so

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So perhaps I am the poshest man in Bitcoin.

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I think so. I think you've just solidified it.

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What would your grandfather think of the state of London today?

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Well, the one surviving clip I think of my grandfather that is on YouTube

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is of him ranting about the sex pistols and how pleased he is

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that he's finally managed to get sex shop windows covered in opaque layers of paint,

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which until recently was still the case.

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We need more punk.

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I'm more of a cypherpunk fan than a straight punk.

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Fair.

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as you can probably tell by my voice and my haircuts

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and my love for ties.

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I don't know if you have a love for ties, really.

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I think you masquerade as a suit coiner when it's necessary.

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Yeah, I mean, I do like a good suit.

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Do you?

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Yeah, I've got about 40 Hermes ties in my cupboard.

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Holy shit.

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I was a corporate lawyer for years.

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I have one suit that I wore on my wedding,

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and then I wear it.

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The only other time I've worn it is at BPI events.

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Nice.

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Yeah, because they make me wear a suit.

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Oh, I used to read a website which told you exactly where James Bond got all of his suits made

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and who the brands were. And so I religiously followed this. I used to get my shoes in the

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same Churches and Cochrane Jones, Black Capital Oxford's, Drake's Ties,

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Sambler-Lonassa shirts from German Street.

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So you are officially a suit coiner. You even say it's suit.

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Yes, that's quite an old-fashioned pronunciation.

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Is that right?

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Yeah, not many people say that anymore.

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Yeah, I've never heard that before.

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So this might be the poshest conversation I've ever had.

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Jesus Christ.

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Well, I think the conclusion here is we need more posh representation in Bitcoin.

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We do.

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We need diversity in Bitcoin.

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Posh lives matter.

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But we're here to talk about something totally different.

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You are the latest Bitcoin treasury company, as if we didn't have enough.

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What's happening?

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Yeah, it's exciting times.

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And obviously, it's like waiting for a bus, isn't it?

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You wait all night for a Bitcoin treasury company,

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and then three of them arrive at once.

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So I announced a couple of months ago

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that I was moving out of the fiat world.

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I'd obviously wanted to work in Bitcoin for a long time.

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And it was proposed that I was going to join Coin Corner.

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As part of those discussions,

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we began to explore a new venture

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that some of the Coin Corner team were working on.

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and as part of those discussions we decided that uh instead of joining corn corner i joined the

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new venture and would head it up so i'm going to be acting as the ceo there uh none of this is is

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public yet but i think by the time this interview by the time this goes out it'll all be public it

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will all be public and we will have announced uh what i think is going to be quite exciting

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change not just for us but hopefully for the bitcoin industry as well so you focus on the

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idea that this is a Bitcoin treasury company, I would say that it's not just a Bitcoin treasury

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company. We aim to essentially make Bitcoin our business. And we'll obviously delve into this as

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we talk. But the idea is that we will not just acquire and hold Bitcoin, but we will actually

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use that, particularly via the deployment of that Bitcoin into Lightning nodes and generate revenue

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thereby. So we very much want this to be a genuine, functional, profitable operating business,

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which happens to buy and hold Bitcoin and aggressively wants to accumulate as much of

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that Bitcoin as we can. Considering that our business model actually involves the acquisition

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and deployment of Bitcoin, it makes complete business sense for us to raise as much capital

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as we can as quickly as possible, deploy as much as we possibly can as soon as we can,

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because that then creates a virtuous circle or a flywheel

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of continuing acquisition, deployment, revenue.

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Okay, so let's go right back to the start.

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This new company that's spinning up, it's backed by CoinCorner.

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Can you talk about who else is going to be involved in the project?

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Yeah, I can give you a few names so these will all be public as well.

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And actually, this is probably the item that we often flag third

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when we're speaking to investors, but I think it's worth doing as you have

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and actually focusing on this from day one.

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So one of the key differentiating factors

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that we see for ourselves

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is that we are a Bitcoin-first,

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Bitcoin-only, and Bitcoin-focused business.

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So a lot of the other treasury companies,

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many of which I like

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and whose management I admire,

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Strategy, for example, or SWC,

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those are companies

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which began in different business sectors

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and have pivoted.

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The differentiating factor for us is really twofold.

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we're starting in Bitcoin, we're going to remain in Bitcoin, and the people coming on board are

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some of the best known and most well experienced Bitcoiners with a UK focus. So just giving you a

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few names. So alongside me, we're going to have Danny from Coin Corner, who's joining as the

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Chief Bitcoin Officer. Dave from Coin Corner is joining as our CFO. So two of the most well

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respected and most experienced people already. Zach from Coin Corner is coming over as a CTO.

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so he'll be handing the technical side of things.

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Between Zach and Danny,

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you've probably got one of the most experienced

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sets of people in managing and running a Lightning node,

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which would be the core business proposition.

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We've also got Alan Farrington coming on board

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as a director.

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David Jacks is joining us from PayPal.

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So he was PayPal's first ever CFO,

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and he's coming on board as chairman.

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Is he a Bitcoiner?

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He is now.

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And so what did he do at PayPal?

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I'm interested.

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He was their CFO in the very, very early days.

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So the chief financial officer.

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Yeah.

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And perhaps it's worth spending a bit of time on that.

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So across, I think between what we've tried to do in assembling the team here

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is to put together a group of people who are very, very focused on Bitcoin,

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also very, very focused on pay tech,

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and also with a wide and broad understanding of capital markets

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and money raising and also asset management.

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So, Alan's background, of course, is with Bailey Gifford.

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As you'll know, one of the biggest asset and wealth managers in the world.

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Bailey Gifford happened to be a client of mine when I was at Robeson Gray.

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I did a bunch of deals for them.

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Some of the most interesting work I did was for Bailey Gifford, particularly in their

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early startup and tech work.

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And also, we have obviously very, very extreme corporate experience from David.

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I should say that David's also been on boards of banks.

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was on Silicon Valley Bank. He's worked for Barclays as well. So he straddles both the

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paytech and the traditional financial world. And we really want to combine that, I suppose,

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that triumvirate of experience between the Bitcoin world, the paytech world, and the financial

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capital markets and asset management worlds to really, I suppose, the base layer of the

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pyramid that we're trying to build.

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And so, okay, is there anyone else on the board worth mentioning?

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I haven't talked very much about myself, but we know each other.

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No, but I think actually it's worth getting into your background because in Bitcoin, I

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imagine most people know you as the policy person, but you obviously have extensive experience

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before that. So maybe it is worth talking about that.

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00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:00,300
Yeah, sure. Very happy to do that. So my professional background, I trained as a lawyer

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00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:07,600
at Freshfields, which is one of the oldest and most well-respected firms in the UK. Funnily

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enough the Bank of England's lawyers for two or three hundred years. No coincidence, I'm sure.

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And so there I worked for a lot of private equity houses, largely doing tape privates,

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but I also advised the boards of various different illicit companies. So I worked with the

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Board of Cattles, PLC. When I was a young lawyer trainee, I would draft briefing papers for the

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00:09:33,580 --> 00:09:35,180
boards of companies such as Tesco.

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00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:43,860
And I also advised the board of Avis Europe when they were undergoing their takeover by

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Avis US, so pushing them back together.

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I did the first prepack administration of a listed company ever.

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I think that's probably, weirdly, that's such an esoterically weird thing to say.

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And it's something that no one will ever remember.

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But if there is ever a wiki page on...

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You will be on it.

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Yeah.

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That was a horrendous deal. That was DTZ PLC.

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So I've got a lot of experience both in terms of advising boards at unlisted companies,

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00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:17,660
but also doing listed company work as well,

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which is crucially important for the kind of responsibilities I will have as CEO of our new company.

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We should probably mention the name, which I think will be in public domain by the time we...

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00:10:27,380 --> 00:10:27,520
Yeah.

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00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,560
We've finally settled on B-Hodl.

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00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,740
obviously the bee looking like the Bitcoin bee.

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I don't know whether it's deliberate

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00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,540
that it sounds a little bit like beehold, but you know.

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I like it though.

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00:10:40,580 --> 00:10:41,860
Maybe there's a marketing ploy.

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00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:43,440
Beehold, beehodl.

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Anyway.

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00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:46,940
If you're already self-custody of Bitcoin,

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00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,720
you know the deal with hardware wallets,

207
00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:50,840
complex setups, clumsy interfaces,

208
00:10:51,140 --> 00:10:53,660
and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten.

209
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,460
Well, BitKey fixes that.

210
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,580
BitKey is a multi-sig hardware wallet

211
00:10:57,580 --> 00:10:59,840
built by the team behind Square and Cash App.

212
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:07,540
It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an intuitive, easy-to-use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over.

213
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,080
It's simple, secure self-custody without the stress.

214
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,960
And time named Bitkey one of the best inventions of 2024.

215
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,220
Get 20% off at bitkey.world when you use code WBD.

216
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,780
That's B-I-T-K-E-Y dot world and use code WBD.

217
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,140
One of the things that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage.

218
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,120
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219
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220
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222
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226
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227
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229
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230
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243
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:53,660
So if you need cash but you don't want to sell Bitcoin, head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan.

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That's ledn.io forward slash WBD.

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The focus on this treasury company,

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which is more than just a treasury company,

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is British.

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So who else have you got to come in

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on the investment side?

250
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Well, Adam Back is taking a significant position

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in the company.

252
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So he will be subscribing prior to IPO.

253
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So fantastic to have him on board.

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And to the extent that we can draw on his expertise,

255
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that would be fantastic.

256
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And I think the fact that he's coming in this early on and with this much enthusiasm is

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a good sign for our future prospects.

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And certainly we'd like to gain as much benefit as we can, both from our association with

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him as one of our shareholders, to whom I will be owing my duties, and also his incredible

260
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experience in the Bitcoin world.

261
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Yeah.

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And also, so full disclosure, I am also going to be an investor.

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It's funny because I almost feel awkward about saying it because I've been so critical of

264
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treasury companies. And like, to be very clear, the reason this is interesting to me

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is because of the team you guys have. So when Danny first told me about this, first of all,

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I think what Danny and the team at CoinCon have done is incredible. Like they're people that I

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trust deeply. And the thing that resonated with me is that this is a Bitcoin first play.

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So maybe it's worth getting into like how this business model is actually set up.

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Sure. And perhaps even before I answer that, I think it's right to be skeptical. We come from

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an industry where we are encouraged to challenge everything. And I completely think that's the

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correct approach to take. And it's the reason that I'm much less rich than I might otherwise be.

272
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If I was less skeptical, I would have bought a lot more Bitcoin early on. I didn't. I misunderstood

273
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it. And I have to live with the consequences now. But so I completely agree. And maybe we'll dig in

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I think we should, because when I look at the treasury companies, I almost separate strategy, I think MetaPlanet because of its jurisdiction and the length it's been running.

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And I think there'll be a few others in terms of, I assume what Adam is going to do with his own treasury company is going to be successful.

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I think what Jack's doing at 21 is likely to be.

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And those ones I put down to just the sheer size of them for starting out.

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I think there's then a lot of also-rans that see Bitcoin

279
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as kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card for a failing company.

280
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And they're the ones that I'm incredibly skeptical of.

281
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I don't know how they're going to weather any kind of bear market.

282
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Maybe it's worth getting your opinion on just like the entire market here.

283
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:29,760
Okay.

284
00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:34,540
So stepping back a few months and possibly even years,

285
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I originally had slight misgivings around Michael Saylor buying all the Bitcoin.

286
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Not least because if you take it to an absurd extent, if Saylor holds all of the Bitcoin,

287
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then it's completely pointless. No one will be using it as money. No one will be paying with it.

288
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No one will be self-custodying it. And all of those three things, I think,

289
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,260
are fundamentally important to Bitcoin and its nature. So without those, what on earth is the

290
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point. I would like to say, let's stop buying so much and leave something for the rest of us.

291
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But at the same time, I think what he's done is crucially important in opening the gates to

292
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a gigantic total addressable market. So, and again, here's the conflict between my suitcoin

293
00:16:23,340 --> 00:16:31,140
in nature and my bitcoin in nature. I very strongly adhere to the principles of self-custody,

294
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but I also concede that for some people, self-custody is either difficult or impossible.

295
00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:43,320
Whether you are talking about someone who wants to get tax-favored exposure to Bitcoin through

296
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:48,860
buying an ETF, and that's fine. I'm a free market capitalist. I believe that you should be free to

297
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deploy your money however you see fit. Or if you're someone, maybe you're an elderly person

298
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,980
who doesn't understand how to use their phone, so good luck using a cold card. Brilliant products

299
00:16:59,980 --> 00:17:00,980
So they are.

300
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,480
So there's one pool of capital

301
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,480
which is definitely underexposed to Bitcoin.

302
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And I think secondly once you have achieved the size of a strategy then you are able to attract more attention from other industry players which will bring more capital into the industry

303
00:17:21,641 --> 00:17:24,701
And we don't need to rehash exactly what Saylor is doing,

304
00:17:24,761 --> 00:17:26,161
but that is completely what he's doing.

305
00:17:26,561 --> 00:17:30,441
He's tapping into the equity capital markets, the debt capital markets,

306
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and those are gigantic pools of capital.

307
00:17:34,161 --> 00:17:36,821
Interestingly as well, some of those pools of capital

308
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are effectively what's called mandated capital.

309
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So in other words, they will be running pools of capital or wealth funds that are invested according to certain rules that are determined by their risk committee, by their investment committee, and so on.

310
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And many of those will simply be unable to hold self-custody Bitcoin.

311
00:17:55,081 --> 00:17:57,481
And again, this is where some of the conflict arises.

312
00:17:57,481 --> 00:18:09,861
If I believe that all investors deserve exposure to Bitcoin and to the Bitcoin industry, then those mandated pools of capital also deserve that.

313
00:18:10,161 --> 00:18:10,381
I agree.

314
00:18:11,081 --> 00:18:21,701
And I think it's worth, maybe before we drill on even further, it's worth focusing on, I think, one of the business angles that we believe is under addressed.

315
00:18:21,701 --> 00:18:29,381
So we've already explained that we think that the total pool of capital that wants exposure to Bitcoin probably doesn't have it yet.

316
00:18:29,841 --> 00:18:35,981
So from an investor perspective, you're talking about a total addressable market that could hockey stick up from where we are at the moment.

317
00:18:36,501 --> 00:18:41,361
Just putting some numbers on that, total market cap of Bitcoin is roughly $2 trillion at the moment.

318
00:18:41,781 --> 00:18:45,561
We are talking about a total pool of wealth that is in the hundreds of trillions.

319
00:18:46,601 --> 00:18:49,021
So the amount of exposure to Bitcoin is tiny.

320
00:18:49,021 --> 00:18:54,981
in pure number terms in america we think maybe 50 million people hold it in the uk maybe 7 million

321
00:18:54,981 --> 00:18:58,541
and i think those numbers are really high yeah i agree i don't think it's that high

322
00:18:58,541 --> 00:19:02,861
and it could those could include people who've you know got a hundred satoshis that someone sent

323
00:19:02,861 --> 00:19:09,801
them in the wallet of satoshi so the investment investment thesis there is very simple and this

324
00:19:09,801 --> 00:19:14,421
applies whether you're talking about bitcoin or a bitcoin treasury company lots and lots of capital

325
00:19:14,421 --> 00:19:19,441
out there under allocated a Bitcoin. That's the first point. And the second point is,

326
00:19:20,221 --> 00:19:26,501
we like to think of, certainly at B-Hodl, we like to think of the three aspects of the Bitcoin

327
00:19:26,501 --> 00:19:34,581
industry. First is Bitcoin itself as an asset. And then second, we have the network. It's both

328
00:19:34,581 --> 00:19:40,361
of those things and more. It's also an ecosystem of businesses that are growing up around exposure

329
00:19:40,361 --> 00:19:42,721
to use of custody of that asset.

330
00:19:42,981 --> 00:19:46,201
And that includes, you know, businesses like Debify

331
00:19:46,201 --> 00:19:49,101
or like AnchorWash, you know,

332
00:19:49,101 --> 00:19:51,781
which are offering lending or insurance products and so on.

333
00:19:52,621 --> 00:19:53,821
And then in terms of the network,

334
00:19:54,241 --> 00:19:55,401
all of the pay tech businesses,

335
00:19:55,701 --> 00:19:57,241
the Lightning implementations,

336
00:19:57,761 --> 00:20:01,141
mini bits and the e-cash developments that we're seeing,

337
00:20:01,841 --> 00:20:03,501
all of the software development

338
00:20:03,501 --> 00:20:05,181
and hardware development, actually,

339
00:20:05,221 --> 00:20:07,301
in terms of point-of-sale devices and bolt cards,

340
00:20:08,541 --> 00:20:10,141
there's a huge...

341
00:20:10,361 --> 00:20:16,601
a huge pay tech piece as well. And each of those three, we believe, again, in a fly beyond system,

342
00:20:16,601 --> 00:20:23,081
are further, I suppose, building out and growing each of the others. All three of those are

343
00:20:23,081 --> 00:20:28,361
important. And we aim to sit at the epicenter of those three different pillars of what we see as

344
00:20:28,361 --> 00:20:33,321
the Bitcoin industry. So when you're looking at this, a lot of the treasury companies that are

345
00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:38,441
popping up don't actually really have a business model. This is no shade on MetaPlanet, but the

346
00:20:38,441 --> 00:20:39,961
The hotel part of the business doesn't matter.

347
00:20:40,381 --> 00:20:41,661
You can't stay in a Metaplanet hotel?

348
00:20:42,561 --> 00:20:43,341
I have not.

349
00:20:43,441 --> 00:20:43,761
Not yet.

350
00:20:44,441 --> 00:20:45,241
I think so, yeah.

351
00:20:46,361 --> 00:20:51,061
And when it comes to strategy, again, that has become a very insignificant portion of the business.

352
00:20:51,681 --> 00:20:53,801
Some of these flat out really don't have anything.

353
00:20:54,921 --> 00:20:56,581
Are you going to have an actual business?

354
00:20:56,921 --> 00:21:03,461
The actual business is going to be firstly the acquisition, and then secondly the deployment of Lightning.

355
00:21:03,941 --> 00:21:06,961
So it's worth explaining how that deployment of Lightning works.

356
00:21:06,961 --> 00:21:22,121
Sure. Yeah, I'm very happy. So if no one's ever run a Lightning node before, the basic principle is that you peg in and peg out from the base layer. I mean, you know this as well, if not better than I do.

357
00:21:22,121 --> 00:21:25,801
So you have an initial transaction to open the channel.

358
00:21:26,761 --> 00:21:28,661
And then once your channel is opened,

359
00:21:29,061 --> 00:21:31,781
your node then connects to other participants in the Lightning network,

360
00:21:32,541 --> 00:21:33,761
almost like a mesh.

361
00:21:34,081 --> 00:21:35,781
So it's not a one-to-one correspondence.

362
00:21:36,081 --> 00:21:37,421
It's literally a network.

363
00:21:38,561 --> 00:21:42,281
And the way that you derive revenue from using that

364
00:21:42,281 --> 00:21:45,541
is you are able to charge as a routing fee

365
00:21:45,541 --> 00:21:48,281
a proportion of the amount of Bitcoin you have locked in that channel.

366
00:21:48,281 --> 00:21:54,121
So we are leasing a top 100 rated Lightning node on day one from Coin Corner.

367
00:21:54,121 --> 00:22:01,081
And that will be owned, managed, and run for the period of that rolling lease by B-HODL.

368
00:22:01,801 --> 00:22:09,481
And it's important to note that the ranking is very important. Ranking is based on both age of

369
00:22:09,481 --> 00:22:15,561
the node and also capacity. So the one that we're acquiring from day one is going to be one of the

370
00:22:15,561 --> 00:22:19,741
knows with the best reputation globally for routing and secure payments.

371
00:22:20,321 --> 00:22:22,681
And we're really starting as we mean to go on.

372
00:22:23,521 --> 00:22:27,461
We believe that paychecks is integral to the success of Bitcoin.

373
00:22:27,841 --> 00:22:33,821
And it happens to be a way that you can legitimately charge revenue in Bitcoin from day one

374
00:22:33,821 --> 00:22:41,101
and immediately derive income into the company simply from the acquisition of the asset Bitcoin itself.

375
00:22:41,701 --> 00:22:44,701
So in a nutshell, that is the business model.

376
00:22:44,701 --> 00:22:47,441
and then maybe to finish off in percentage terms,

377
00:22:48,221 --> 00:22:52,401
the routing fees will range between 1 and 9.7%.

378
00:22:52,401 --> 00:22:54,861
So that's the interesting part to me

379
00:22:54,861 --> 00:22:57,201
that I want to try and dig into a little if we can.

380
00:22:57,321 --> 00:22:59,321
I mean, I was talking to Alan Farrington probably less than that.

381
00:22:59,641 --> 00:23:01,241
And this is where the yield actually comes from.

382
00:23:01,241 --> 00:23:02,281
Yes, it is.

383
00:23:02,521 --> 00:23:05,761
But when you say that the range goes from,

384
00:23:06,061 --> 00:23:08,041
I think you said 1% to 9%,

385
00:23:08,041 --> 00:23:10,321
I think those figures that you're talking about is,

386
00:23:10,441 --> 00:23:11,781
I'm pretty sure Block came out and said

387
00:23:11,781 --> 00:23:14,141
they were getting 9% on their Lightning node.

388
00:23:14,701 --> 00:23:17,321
from what I understand, I could be wrong.

389
00:23:17,461 --> 00:23:18,841
The reason they get such high numbers

390
00:23:18,841 --> 00:23:20,721
is because they essentially set the fees

391
00:23:20,721 --> 00:23:22,761
for anyone sending transactions from Cash App.

392
00:23:23,981 --> 00:23:25,561
I know River have come out with a report.

393
00:23:25,641 --> 00:23:27,021
They run a really large Lightning node.

394
00:23:27,121 --> 00:23:28,841
I think they said they get about 1.5%.

395
00:23:28,841 --> 00:23:30,961
So where do you think you can sit on that?

396
00:23:31,681 --> 00:23:35,181
We would be looking to hit a range of about 2, 2, 2.5%.

397
00:23:35,181 --> 00:23:36,201
Okay, that seems achievable.

398
00:23:36,501 --> 00:23:37,141
Yeah, we hope so.

399
00:23:37,981 --> 00:23:40,861
And remember that this is a flywheel as well.

400
00:23:41,561 --> 00:23:43,281
So the more Bitcoin you acquire,

401
00:23:43,281 --> 00:23:47,041
the more we will be able to deploy it to Lightning.

402
00:23:47,881 --> 00:23:51,921
And at the same time, it becomes a virtuous circle

403
00:23:51,921 --> 00:23:54,881
because the more reliable your node infrastructure is,

404
00:23:55,021 --> 00:23:56,421
the fewer failed payments there are.

405
00:23:56,721 --> 00:24:00,701
And ideally, the more people will build on the Lightning network.

406
00:24:00,941 --> 00:24:04,361
And that supports the third piece of the stool that I spoke of before,

407
00:24:04,681 --> 00:24:06,061
which is the ecosystem of businesses.

408
00:24:06,361 --> 00:24:08,841
So the more reliable your PayTech network,

409
00:24:09,341 --> 00:24:12,141
the more people will be looking to start companies

410
00:24:12,141 --> 00:24:16,281
and to launch payment processing businesses, et cetera, et cetera.

411
00:24:16,921 --> 00:24:19,961
And then each of the three limbs begin to support each other.

412
00:24:21,401 --> 00:24:22,161
Okay, that makes sense.

413
00:24:22,261 --> 00:24:24,081
So we've got, on the business model,

414
00:24:24,221 --> 00:24:25,741
there's running a Lightning node as one part of it.

415
00:24:25,801 --> 00:24:28,701
Is there anything else in the roadmap that you can talk about yet?

416
00:24:29,061 --> 00:24:30,601
There are other things in the roadmap,

417
00:24:31,141 --> 00:24:34,441
but I'm not able to talk about those at the moment.

418
00:24:34,441 --> 00:24:36,801
There are two, if not three,

419
00:24:36,901 --> 00:24:39,441
different business opportunities we're also exploring.

420
00:24:39,441 --> 00:24:42,401
but this will become public in due course.

421
00:24:42,681 --> 00:24:43,481
Okay, well you have to let me know

422
00:24:43,481 --> 00:24:44,301
when you can talk about it

423
00:24:44,301 --> 00:24:45,101
and you come back on the show.

424
00:24:45,541 --> 00:24:47,221
So what do you think will,

425
00:24:48,301 --> 00:24:50,561
again, when I come back to the fact

426
00:24:50,561 --> 00:24:51,841
that I'm skeptical on treasury companies,

427
00:24:51,961 --> 00:24:53,621
one of the things that I am skeptical about

428
00:24:53,621 --> 00:24:56,241
is the idea of a treasury company

429
00:24:56,241 --> 00:24:57,941
that's just copy-paste

430
00:24:57,941 --> 00:24:59,281
but in a different jurisdiction

431
00:24:59,281 --> 00:25:00,741
to me is not that interesting

432
00:25:00,741 --> 00:25:02,621
because if you're in the UK

433
00:25:02,621 --> 00:25:04,141
and you want exposure to a treasury company,

434
00:25:04,241 --> 00:25:05,081
you can still buy strategy.

435
00:25:05,181 --> 00:25:06,101
It doesn't matter that you're in the UK.

436
00:25:07,061 --> 00:25:11,221
But with these new kind of novel business models,

437
00:25:11,421 --> 00:25:12,781
I think that does make it interesting.

438
00:25:12,901 --> 00:25:14,481
So what is your differentiator?

439
00:25:15,621 --> 00:25:17,541
I think we've spoken about it to an extent,

440
00:25:17,721 --> 00:25:19,261
and maybe I'd add one more.

441
00:25:19,641 --> 00:25:21,681
So you mentioned earlier that a lot of these companies

442
00:25:21,681 --> 00:25:23,661
seem like zombie companies or failing companies

443
00:25:23,661 --> 00:25:25,701
that saw Bitcoin as a Hail Mary pass.

444
00:25:26,561 --> 00:25:28,401
We're actually not that at all.

445
00:25:28,401 --> 00:25:31,361
We are, in fact, definitively a new company

446
00:25:31,361 --> 00:25:34,781
that is starting from day one with a clean business plan

447
00:25:34,781 --> 00:25:35,881
and a clean balance sheet.

448
00:25:36,101 --> 00:25:39,601
And our focus is very much on Bitcoin.

449
00:25:39,601 --> 00:25:42,101
I haven't aired this with the team so far,

450
00:25:42,101 --> 00:25:44,101
but I don't know if you know the myth of Athena's birth.

451
00:25:44,101 --> 00:25:46,101
No, I don't. Tell me.

452
00:25:46,101 --> 00:25:49,101
Well, Athena sprang fully formed from the head of Zeus.

453
00:25:49,101 --> 00:25:50,101
Okay.

454
00:25:50,101 --> 00:25:53,101
Zeus had an affair with her mother Metis,

455
00:25:53,101 --> 00:25:55,101
who was a goddess of wisdom.

456
00:25:55,101 --> 00:25:59,101
And Metis was a shapeshifter, and Zeus swallowed her.

457
00:25:59,101 --> 00:26:01,101
And then after she turned into a fly,

458
00:26:01,101 --> 00:26:03,101
he thought he'd got rid of her.

459
00:26:03,101 --> 00:26:05,101
And then Zeus had an absolutely terrible headache,

460
00:26:05,101 --> 00:26:07,981
and Prometheus splits his head open with an axe.

461
00:26:08,841 --> 00:26:10,121
Obviously Zeus was an immortal,

462
00:26:10,321 --> 00:26:12,141
so it might have hurt him but didn't kill him.

463
00:26:12,561 --> 00:26:15,401
And then Athena, goddess of wisdom and war,

464
00:26:15,541 --> 00:26:17,501
springs fully formed from the head of Zeus.

465
00:26:18,381 --> 00:26:21,581
So in that context, we're aiming to enter the market

466
00:26:21,581 --> 00:26:24,321
fully formed as a Bitcoin business from day one

467
00:26:24,321 --> 00:26:26,861
with a business model that's focused on Bitcoin

468
00:26:26,861 --> 00:26:29,101
and growth and development plans

469
00:26:29,101 --> 00:26:31,761
that are focused purely on Bitcoin and the Bitcoin industry.

470
00:26:32,201 --> 00:26:34,561
So that, for me, is a key differentiator.

471
00:26:35,101 --> 00:26:35,941
I love that analogy.

472
00:26:36,601 --> 00:26:42,501
So when it comes down to like the long-term viability of these companies,

473
00:26:43,041 --> 00:26:46,061
again, an idea I've had in my head for a long time,

474
00:26:46,201 --> 00:26:48,661
which may be proven to be wrong, and that's great if it is,

475
00:26:49,041 --> 00:26:51,721
is that we're going to have these treasuries companies crop up,

476
00:26:52,541 --> 00:26:56,601
hoover up Bitcoin, and then depending on things like the terms on their debt,

477
00:26:56,681 --> 00:26:58,621
they're going to end up having to spit that out in a bear market.

478
00:26:59,421 --> 00:27:03,321
And I don't know how it will play out,

479
00:27:03,321 --> 00:27:09,401
But I could see a scenario where if it doesn't cause the next bear market, it certainly exacerbates the next bear market.

480
00:27:09,601 --> 00:27:11,121
So how are you thinking about that?

481
00:27:11,861 --> 00:27:12,641
That's a brilliant question.

482
00:27:12,841 --> 00:27:18,161
And that actually is probably my key worry about Bitcoin treasury companies as well.

483
00:27:19,141 --> 00:27:23,381
And I think because of that, it's something that I am laser focused on and the team is laser focused on.

484
00:27:24,021 --> 00:27:30,781
So maybe backtracking to some of my previous career, I mentioned the prepack.

485
00:27:30,781 --> 00:27:42,501
So a prepack admin is when a company has effectively become insolvent on the administration, and it is then restructured, and its debts are either repaid or refinanced and so on.

486
00:27:44,121 --> 00:27:47,921
So I spend a lot of time as a restructuring and insolvency lawyer.

487
00:27:48,921 --> 00:27:55,701
So I've seen how bad debts poorly managed can be for a company,

488
00:27:55,941 --> 00:27:59,941
and how these things can very easily precipitate insolvency.

489
00:28:00,241 --> 00:28:04,381
In the Bitcoin world, I'm still very alive to what happened in summer of 2022.

490
00:28:05,021 --> 00:28:10,361
And I think the Lunar Foundation Guard and what happened with that organization as Bitcoin

491
00:28:10,361 --> 00:28:13,661
is a good cautionary tale for all of us involved in this space.

492
00:28:14,241 --> 00:28:16,641
you'll remember that LFG accumulated,

493
00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:17,881
I mean, God knows how many Bitcoin.

494
00:28:18,221 --> 00:28:19,301
Yeah, I can't remember.

495
00:28:19,661 --> 00:28:20,341
It was a huge amount.

496
00:28:20,461 --> 00:28:20,581
Yeah.

497
00:28:20,841 --> 00:28:22,401
And then there was a fire sale

498
00:28:22,401 --> 00:28:24,181
as they tried to maintain the peg.

499
00:28:25,321 --> 00:28:28,061
And that, I think, is a key risk for the sector.

500
00:28:28,481 --> 00:28:32,521
You know, if you enter a market downturn

501
00:28:32,521 --> 00:28:34,081
and you become a forced seller,

502
00:28:34,481 --> 00:28:36,201
then that snowballs.

503
00:28:37,081 --> 00:28:38,741
And to be honest, that's the same for any asset.

504
00:28:39,381 --> 00:28:40,901
If there's more selling pressure than buying pressure,

505
00:28:40,981 --> 00:28:41,541
the price drops.

506
00:28:41,601 --> 00:28:42,161
It's very simple.

507
00:28:42,441 --> 00:28:43,501
It's not hard maths.

508
00:28:43,661 --> 00:28:48,221
And if you have any form of leverage at some point, it's not whether you want to sell or you have to sell.

509
00:28:48,401 --> 00:28:54,081
Exactly. And so worth addressing that point up front, we are entering the market with no leverage.

510
00:28:54,621 --> 00:29:03,441
We are purely raising funds through equity finance, which, yes, is dilutive, but at the same time, it enables us to acquire more Bitcoin.

511
00:29:04,201 --> 00:29:09,261
And so the more Bitcoin we have, the more we will be able to deploy and so on.

512
00:29:09,261 --> 00:29:11,401
And so we create the virtuous circle.

513
00:29:11,961 --> 00:29:13,921
Secondly, in terms of becoming a forced seller,

514
00:29:14,561 --> 00:29:18,121
because the team is so acutely focused on downside risk,

515
00:29:18,941 --> 00:29:20,781
and I should mention that the CoinCorner guys,

516
00:29:21,241 --> 00:29:22,521
the ones who are joining our board,

517
00:29:22,961 --> 00:29:26,841
they have got experience of weathering two, if not three, bear markets.

518
00:29:26,841 --> 00:29:29,881
Yeah. For anyone who's listening who doesn't know who CoinCorner are,

519
00:29:30,001 --> 00:29:31,781
they're probably the best exchange in the UK.

520
00:29:32,121 --> 00:29:34,201
Really solid team. Been going for a long time.

521
00:29:34,661 --> 00:29:35,541
Completely agree with that.

522
00:29:35,821 --> 00:29:38,061
That's the principal reason why I'm doing this.

523
00:29:38,061 --> 00:29:41,901
Yeah, the quality of the team, I think, is unmatched.

524
00:29:42,621 --> 00:29:45,421
And one of the things I was very keen to understand

525
00:29:45,421 --> 00:29:47,861
was how they had managed to steer their business

526
00:29:47,861 --> 00:29:50,161
through two, if not three, bear markets

527
00:29:50,161 --> 00:29:51,121
since they first launched.

528
00:29:51,521 --> 00:29:53,201
2014, I think, they kicked off.

529
00:29:54,381 --> 00:29:56,781
And so they are super focused on that.

530
00:29:57,121 --> 00:29:57,741
So am I.

531
00:29:58,161 --> 00:30:00,901
The absolute red line for me

532
00:30:00,901 --> 00:30:03,501
is becoming a forced seller of B-Hoddle's Bitcoin

533
00:30:03,501 --> 00:30:08,241
into effectively a buyer's market.

534
00:30:08,361 --> 00:30:09,541
I don't want that to happen.

535
00:30:10,201 --> 00:30:12,081
And there are two ways of avoiding that,

536
00:30:12,221 --> 00:30:13,541
being very simplistic about it.

537
00:30:13,781 --> 00:30:16,901
One is being very careful about the amount of debt you take on

538
00:30:16,901 --> 00:30:18,541
and whether you can service that debt.

539
00:30:19,241 --> 00:30:22,141
So in some ways, it doesn't matter how much debt you have

540
00:30:22,141 --> 00:30:25,001
so long as you have sufficient free cash flow to service that debt.

541
00:30:26,781 --> 00:30:28,841
Time and time again in my restructuring work,

542
00:30:28,841 --> 00:30:32,481
you would see people taking on too much debt when interest rates are low

543
00:30:32,481 --> 00:30:34,121
and thinking that we're going to remain low forever.

544
00:30:34,641 --> 00:30:36,201
And then suddenly when you come to refinance,

545
00:30:36,261 --> 00:30:39,221
you have to refinance at 7.5% rather than at 5%.

546
00:30:39,221 --> 00:30:41,801
And the free cash flow generated by your business

547
00:30:41,801 --> 00:30:44,941
is no longer sufficient to pay the coupon on that debt

548
00:30:44,941 --> 00:30:49,101
or to pay your interest.

549
00:30:49,841 --> 00:30:52,121
At that point, that's when you begin to get into trouble.

550
00:30:52,361 --> 00:30:54,321
So drawing on all of my experiences

551
00:30:54,321 --> 00:30:55,881
as a restructuring and insolvency lawyer,

552
00:30:56,201 --> 00:30:58,701
this is something that I'm acutely cautious of.

553
00:30:59,561 --> 00:31:02,661
So the way that the team have decided to focus on that,

554
00:31:02,981 --> 00:31:05,101
and credit to Dave in particular for modeling this,

555
00:31:05,841 --> 00:31:09,841
the initial raise, we will hold back sufficient working capital

556
00:31:09,841 --> 00:31:11,881
to fund four years' worth of operations,

557
00:31:12,481 --> 00:31:16,261
which should take us, even if we do have another 50% to 80% downturn

558
00:31:16,261 --> 00:31:18,881
of the Bitcoin price, which I personally think is unlikely,

559
00:31:19,461 --> 00:31:20,641
given the current state of the market,

560
00:31:20,821 --> 00:31:23,041
but we've all been wrong before.

561
00:31:23,041 --> 00:31:23,861
Yeah, I don't know.

562
00:31:23,921 --> 00:31:26,121
It's one of those things where I don't think it's going to happen,

563
00:31:26,201 --> 00:31:27,701
but I would not be shocked if it did happen.

564
00:31:28,021 --> 00:31:28,121
Exactly.

565
00:31:28,121 --> 00:31:33,641
And even though I don't think it might happen, I'm like 60% at most.

566
00:31:35,141 --> 00:31:39,221
So if you do go into that drawdown, you're saying the only issue is if you have debt.

567
00:31:39,281 --> 00:31:41,601
I understand if you've got no leverage, you have no need to sell.

568
00:31:41,901 --> 00:31:44,541
But are you planning on taking leverage against that Bitcoin at some point?

569
00:31:45,121 --> 00:31:45,581
Not initially.

570
00:31:46,001 --> 00:31:46,141
Okay.

571
00:31:46,341 --> 00:31:49,641
And any such decision would be one for the board to do.

572
00:31:49,801 --> 00:31:55,481
And we would only take that decision provided that it was in the best interests of both the company and our shareholders at the time.

573
00:31:55,481 --> 00:32:02,041
So our focus as board members and minor CEO is on maximizing value for shareholders.

574
00:32:03,101 --> 00:32:05,521
And that is absolutely primary.

575
00:32:06,541 --> 00:32:09,761
So initially, we'll begin with no leverage.

576
00:32:11,261 --> 00:32:22,461
And as I say, we will retain sufficient working capital from that first raise to make sure that we can run for four years without actually having to generate any income at all.

577
00:32:22,461 --> 00:32:27,581
What percentage of the Bitcoin you're raising has to be put to one side for work into capital?

578
00:32:28,221 --> 00:32:31,341
I can't put an exact percentage on it for the purposes of this interview,

579
00:32:31,341 --> 00:32:36,541
but I can say the vast majority of the initial raise will be deployed immediately into Bitcoin

580
00:32:36,541 --> 00:32:42,621
purchases. And then we want to continue accumulating Bitcoin from further raises

581
00:32:43,261 --> 00:32:44,781
as aggressively as we possibly can.

582
00:32:44,781 --> 00:32:50,781
So the plan is to raise more money to stack more Bitcoin, but you're not going to take on debt to

583
00:32:50,781 --> 00:32:55,721
to stack more bitcoin not initially no and like i said unless the board determine that it's in the

584
00:32:55,721 --> 00:32:59,441
best interest of the company and shareholders to do so yeah and i think it's worth backtracking to

585
00:32:59,441 --> 00:33:06,401
something we said about strategy you can't do that until you hit a certain size yeah um and until you

586
00:33:06,401 --> 00:33:12,061
have exposure to those vast pools of institutional capital that we talked about as well bitcoin is

587
00:33:12,061 --> 00:33:17,181
absolutely ripping and in every bull market there's always a new wave of investors and with it a flood

588
00:33:17,181 --> 00:33:21,501
of new companies, new products and new promises. But if you've been around long enough, you've seen

589
00:33:21,501 --> 00:33:25,621
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590
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591
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592
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593
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594
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learn more, which is I-R-E-N.com. So that would be another one of the big questions I have around

612
00:35:26,922 --> 00:35:32,922
treasury companies is how long does just selling equity to buy Bitcoin remain interesting? Because

613
00:35:32,922 --> 00:35:38,622
we've seen strategy come out and they've done all these preferreds and I think some of those

614
00:35:38,622 --> 00:35:42,522
products are really interesting. I think they're going to drive massive demand. Is there still a

615
00:35:42,522 --> 00:35:47,702
market for just purely selling equity to buy Bitcoin? Potentially, but I also counter that

616
00:35:47,702 --> 00:35:49,742
by saying that we're doing more than that.

617
00:35:49,882 --> 00:35:53,402
We're selling equity to buy Bitcoin to use the Bitcoin.

618
00:35:53,742 --> 00:35:54,002
Yep.

619
00:35:54,422 --> 00:35:58,802
So I think I triangulate that in terms of B-HODL

620
00:35:58,802 --> 00:36:00,362
for what we're actually trying to do

621
00:36:00,362 --> 00:36:02,542
in terms of the Bitcoin industry.

622
00:36:03,462 --> 00:36:08,962
And pretty much the first page of our marketing deck

623
00:36:08,962 --> 00:36:11,742
sets out that we want to be a Bitcoin infrastructure

624
00:36:11,742 --> 00:36:12,902
and services company.

625
00:36:13,782 --> 00:36:16,482
So for us, this is just the beginning.

626
00:36:16,482 --> 00:36:19,302
and some of those additional business lines that I talked about

627
00:36:19,302 --> 00:36:21,802
are things that we're actively going to explore over the next few years

628
00:36:21,802 --> 00:36:27,462
with a dual mandate, really, of keeping costs and expenses low

629
00:36:27,462 --> 00:36:30,582
while absolutely maximizing the amount of other income

630
00:36:30,582 --> 00:36:32,182
that comes in to the business.

631
00:36:32,542 --> 00:36:34,842
And again, worth flagging the example you gave,

632
00:36:34,942 --> 00:36:35,802
the zombie companies.

633
00:36:36,462 --> 00:36:39,362
We very much don't want to be a zombie company

634
00:36:39,362 --> 00:36:41,622
and we can't be because we're brand new.

635
00:36:41,622 --> 00:36:42,622
Mm-hmm.

636
00:36:42,622 --> 00:36:46,622
And we want to be an integral part of the Bitcoin industry,

637
00:36:46,622 --> 00:36:50,622
potentially globally, but definitely in the United Kingdom.

638
00:36:50,622 --> 00:36:55,622
And maybe worth getting on one of my hobby horses, if you don't mind.

639
00:36:55,622 --> 00:37:01,622
I've said before, I've been to a lot of events in Parliament and lobbying and so on,

640
00:37:01,622 --> 00:37:04,622
where they are full to the brim of shitcoiners.

641
00:37:04,622 --> 00:37:05,622
Yep.

642
00:37:05,622 --> 00:37:10,622
And Web3 people who are creating companies and products backed by VC money,

643
00:37:10,622 --> 00:37:15,642
products that have no product market fit, for which there will likely never be an addressable

644
00:37:15,642 --> 00:37:21,581
market, let alone a total addressable market. And yet they are making a lot of noise. And I've

645
00:37:21,581 --> 00:37:27,402
often felt as though Bitcoin is this like 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner, while all of these

646
00:37:27,402 --> 00:37:32,782
tiny little marmosets are scurrying around. And the gorilla's just sitting there doing nothing.

647
00:37:33,362 --> 00:37:38,702
I want him to get up and start beating his chest. And creating a company like this,

648
00:37:38,702 --> 00:37:41,702
growing at the scale we hope to grow,

649
00:37:42,362 --> 00:37:44,202
we want to be a part,

650
00:37:44,282 --> 00:37:45,402
not just of that conversation,

651
00:37:45,802 --> 00:37:49,202
but also in part of being an integral player

652
00:37:49,202 --> 00:37:51,422
in the Bitcoin industry in the UK,

653
00:37:52,182 --> 00:37:53,922
which we think is aggressively underserved.

654
00:37:54,442 --> 00:37:56,002
And I mean, I totally agree.

655
00:37:56,062 --> 00:37:57,081
We were talking about this just before.

656
00:37:57,202 --> 00:37:59,122
Like the number of products that they have in the US

657
00:37:59,122 --> 00:38:00,802
that you can't get access to in the UK

658
00:38:00,802 --> 00:38:03,142
and the same in Australia where I live is shocking.

659
00:38:03,882 --> 00:38:07,362
There's so much space for people to innovate there.

660
00:38:07,362 --> 00:38:10,982
But the problem is just the regulations and the law gets in the way.

661
00:38:11,081 --> 00:38:13,662
So are you still going to be doing the policy work that you're doing now?

662
00:38:13,862 --> 00:38:14,462
Yes, I will.

663
00:38:14,682 --> 00:38:16,162
So I think we're delving into that a little bit.

664
00:38:16,581 --> 00:38:20,102
I was just on a panel here in Riga talking about Bitcoin in state.

665
00:38:21,282 --> 00:38:24,982
And again, it's the suit corner dilemma, isn't it?

666
00:38:25,081 --> 00:38:25,302
Suit.

667
00:38:27,042 --> 00:38:27,402
Exactly.

668
00:38:27,822 --> 00:38:31,982
Some of us think there's no point in engaging with politicians.

669
00:38:32,662 --> 00:38:36,462
But one of the points I made on stage is that if you don't engage with politicians,

670
00:38:36,462 --> 00:38:38,062
They just made bad laws.

671
00:38:38,642 --> 00:38:40,422
And we need to do everything in our power

672
00:38:40,422 --> 00:38:42,922
to make sure that they're inevitably going to make laws.

673
00:38:43,102 --> 00:38:43,942
So if that's the case,

674
00:38:44,002 --> 00:38:45,722
let them be as good as they possibly can be.

675
00:38:46,502 --> 00:38:48,502
And unless we stand up for ourselves and make noise,

676
00:38:48,942 --> 00:38:49,682
they won't be.

677
00:38:51,162 --> 00:38:53,242
So in terms of policy work,

678
00:38:53,662 --> 00:38:55,922
we are hoping to also deploy

679
00:38:55,922 --> 00:38:59,622
some of the funds raised towards advocacy efforts,

680
00:39:00,102 --> 00:39:02,442
whether those are via BPUK or otherwise.

681
00:39:02,942 --> 00:39:04,102
And as part of that,

682
00:39:04,102 --> 00:39:06,622
in order to remain completely objective,

683
00:39:06,942 --> 00:39:09,502
I've stepped off the board of BPUK,

684
00:39:09,862 --> 00:39:13,282
so I will no longer take operational decisions at the company.

685
00:39:13,402 --> 00:39:15,422
I will still write policy papers for them

686
00:39:15,422 --> 00:39:16,822
on a more fellowship basis,

687
00:39:17,262 --> 00:39:19,922
perhaps more akin to the way that BPI function.

688
00:39:21,662 --> 00:39:23,962
But the current management team

689
00:39:23,962 --> 00:39:25,462
will take operational decisions,

690
00:39:26,202 --> 00:39:29,302
and I'll still be ideally going to Parliament

691
00:39:29,302 --> 00:39:30,682
and negotiating with regulators,

692
00:39:31,342 --> 00:39:33,122
with HMRC, Treasury, and so on.

693
00:39:33,122 --> 00:39:43,262
I already have a line of direct communication with Lord Vasey, who is co-chair of the new cryptocurrency and digital assets all-party parliamentary group.

694
00:39:43,382 --> 00:39:44,942
See, I know nothing about this. What is this?

695
00:39:45,322 --> 00:39:49,202
Oh, do you remember Lisa Cameron, who came to Edinburgh a few years back?

696
00:39:49,522 --> 00:39:51,222
No, I don't. I didn't go to Edinburgh.

697
00:39:51,822 --> 00:39:57,202
Oh, okay. So, in the UK, we have various different all-party parliamentary groups,

698
00:39:57,202 --> 00:40:01,602
which bring together Lords and MPs from both sides of the table to talk about important issues,

699
00:40:01,602 --> 00:40:05,242
and effectively push for those issues in Parliament and decision-making.

700
00:40:05,962 --> 00:40:09,162
So Lisa Cameron was chair of the APBG.

701
00:40:09,922 --> 00:40:12,862
I used to attend and I've given evidence a couple of times there.

702
00:40:13,822 --> 00:40:17,422
And Lord Vasey has recently reconstituted it.

703
00:40:18,502 --> 00:40:23,442
He is, I think, hesitantly quite good news for the space.

704
00:40:24,942 --> 00:40:27,302
In the ride over here, I was describing the car,

705
00:40:27,302 --> 00:40:30,302
how we had used an analogy of sort of blue-tip companies

706
00:40:30,302 --> 00:40:32,882
listed on a market as more akin to Bitcoin

707
00:40:32,882 --> 00:40:36,282
and new codes that I established in my kitchen

708
00:40:36,282 --> 00:40:39,081
as more akin to a meme coin on Solana.

709
00:40:40,462 --> 00:40:42,342
He understood that immediately,

710
00:40:42,682 --> 00:40:44,802
the different risk profiles of those two assets.

711
00:40:45,522 --> 00:40:48,262
And we obviously have a principle in the UK and elsewhere,

712
00:40:48,602 --> 00:40:50,122
which is same risk, same regulation.

713
00:40:50,502 --> 00:40:54,762
If you concede that two assets have a different risk profile,

714
00:40:55,522 --> 00:40:58,762
then provided you still believe in same risk regulation,

715
00:40:58,762 --> 00:41:00,482
same risk, same regulation,

716
00:41:00,642 --> 00:41:02,862
you should also then differentiate

717
00:41:02,862 --> 00:41:05,002
the way that you regulate those assets.

718
00:41:05,682 --> 00:41:07,581
So that's a chink in the armor.

719
00:41:07,662 --> 00:41:08,262
He liked that.

720
00:41:09,102 --> 00:41:10,262
I wrote to him just yesterday

721
00:41:10,262 --> 00:41:13,162
congratulating him on the new APPG.

722
00:41:13,602 --> 00:41:15,382
So I definitely want to exploit that relationship.

723
00:41:16,442 --> 00:41:21,002
I have a direct line in also to the head of FinTech

724
00:41:21,002 --> 00:41:24,002
at the Department for Business, Industry and Trade.

725
00:41:24,002 --> 00:41:32,202
We very, very much want to act as a loud voice in the United Kingdom for Bitcoin and the Bitcoin industry.

726
00:41:33,322 --> 00:41:36,642
And this is a personal bugbear of mine, as you probably know.

727
00:41:37,422 --> 00:41:41,642
Britain's fantastic at finance, and we were fantastic at information technology.

728
00:41:42,422 --> 00:41:48,542
It is almost criminal that Bitcoin, which sits at basically the Venn diagram, that is a circle,

729
00:41:49,081 --> 00:41:52,242
is criminal that we have let that opportunity just pass us by.

730
00:41:52,242 --> 00:41:56,482
I think it's the most frustrating thing I've ever seen a country do is when Brexit happened,

731
00:41:56,482 --> 00:42:00,962
no matter whether you thought it was good or bad, the fact that the UK didn't incentivize as much

732
00:42:00,962 --> 00:42:06,081
business as possible comes to the UK and on top of that incentivize Bitcoin is the biggest mess.

733
00:42:06,081 --> 00:42:06,962
Yeah, completely.

734
00:42:06,962 --> 00:42:10,242
And it's shocking to see. And the fact that it's only got worse is just,

735
00:42:10,242 --> 00:42:11,682
it's honestly embarrassing at this point.

736
00:42:11,682 --> 00:42:14,962
And it's still getting worse. It's utterly, utterly extraordinary.

737
00:42:14,962 --> 00:42:15,282
Yeah.

738
00:42:15,282 --> 00:42:22,482
Yeah. I don't know how closely you follow our work, but the direct communications we've had

739
00:42:22,482 --> 00:42:28,482
with Treasury over the past year and a half got increasingly frustrating. Andrew Griffith and the

740
00:42:28,482 --> 00:42:33,842
last government and Bim Afalami were not bad. We even had a cordial exchange with Tulip Sadiq once

741
00:42:33,842 --> 00:42:39,942
she came into government. Emma Reynolds, bless her, I'm not going to slander her,

742
00:42:40,362 --> 00:42:43,642
but it's clear from her correspondence with us that she doesn't understand Bitcoin at all,

743
00:42:43,642 --> 00:42:44,842
and likely never will.

744
00:42:45,142 --> 00:42:45,282
Yeah.

745
00:42:45,722 --> 00:42:46,222
That's the thing.

746
00:42:46,802 --> 00:42:48,722
It's not in their interest to understand it

747
00:42:48,722 --> 00:42:49,682
because it just disrupts the power

748
00:42:49,682 --> 00:42:50,362
that they already have.

749
00:42:50,622 --> 00:42:53,042
And that's why I'm both

750
00:42:53,042 --> 00:42:56,182
very appreciative of the work

751
00:42:56,182 --> 00:42:57,642
that you are doing here.

752
00:42:57,762 --> 00:42:59,682
But I also think at some point,

753
00:42:59,802 --> 00:43:01,102
something has to change.

754
00:43:01,142 --> 00:43:02,442
This is one of those situations

755
00:43:02,442 --> 00:43:03,422
where change happens

756
00:43:03,422 --> 00:43:04,662
one funeral at a time, I think.

757
00:43:05,302 --> 00:43:06,362
Yeah, I love that quote.

758
00:43:08,822 --> 00:43:10,222
I mean, being slightly more elaborate,

759
00:43:10,342 --> 00:43:11,322
I think it was Max Planck

760
00:43:11,322 --> 00:43:12,262
who said that, you know,

761
00:43:12,262 --> 00:43:17,322
people don't convince other people of the truth of new ideas.

762
00:43:17,522 --> 00:43:21,742
What really happens is that the adherents of the old die out over time

763
00:43:21,742 --> 00:43:23,342
until they are replaced by the new.

764
00:43:24,262 --> 00:43:25,202
Yours is much neater.

765
00:43:25,702 --> 00:43:28,182
I actually have never heard the real one, but there we go.

766
00:43:28,242 --> 00:43:29,262
Yeah, no, that's true.

767
00:43:29,922 --> 00:43:32,682
So are you seeing the policy side of this?

768
00:43:33,302 --> 00:43:38,182
Like you said, the company may help support these policy institutes in the UK

769
00:43:38,182 --> 00:43:42,842
as almost an insurance plan for the main treasury company.

770
00:43:44,722 --> 00:43:49,862
In generic terms, I'd say that all industries have lobbying arms.

771
00:43:51,061 --> 00:43:55,602
And you will have seen recently photographs of Brian Armstrong at 10 Downing Street.

772
00:43:56,182 --> 00:43:57,122
Pretending to be a Bitcoiner.

773
00:43:57,442 --> 00:43:57,882
What exactly?

774
00:43:58,922 --> 00:44:00,162
Although he's got a great haircut.

775
00:44:00,542 --> 00:44:01,802
He has a great haircut.

776
00:44:01,802 --> 00:44:03,142
I totally agree.

777
00:44:04,142 --> 00:44:07,081
I would, I mean, not bigging myself up,

778
00:44:07,081 --> 00:44:09,202
but I would much prefer that it was me standing.

779
00:44:09,422 --> 00:44:11,142
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly, yeah.

780
00:44:11,282 --> 00:44:11,782
Oh, thank you.

781
00:44:12,002 --> 00:44:13,222
I'll shave my head out of respect.

782
00:44:16,362 --> 00:44:19,242
So, I mean, one of the key issues,

783
00:44:19,502 --> 00:44:21,282
and I default to this all the time,

784
00:44:21,622 --> 00:44:25,622
there is a complete failure of politicians, regulators,

785
00:44:25,722 --> 00:44:27,242
to understand the difference between Bitcoin

786
00:44:27,242 --> 00:44:29,782
and the very broad crypto market.

787
00:44:31,742 --> 00:44:33,382
I mean, it's got to the point where I feel that

788
00:44:33,382 --> 00:44:36,561
crypto is so broad a term, it's almost useless now.

789
00:44:36,561 --> 00:44:37,442
A hundred percent.

790
00:44:38,482 --> 00:44:43,202
Yeah, I'm glad you agree. Because it's very, very difficult to

791
00:44:44,322 --> 00:44:49,842
see that an NFT of a cat has anything to do with a non-state, globally accessible,

792
00:44:50,561 --> 00:44:55,042
completely decentralized, peer-to-peer digital money. How are those two things the same?

793
00:44:55,762 --> 00:45:03,202
They are as different as you watching, I don't know, a trailer for the new Bond film,

794
00:45:03,202 --> 00:45:05,602
or doing Excel spreadsheets.

795
00:45:05,702 --> 00:45:06,802
They're completely different.

796
00:45:08,482 --> 00:45:10,042
They both happen to use computers.

797
00:45:11,061 --> 00:45:14,902
And to a degree, your UX is similar

798
00:45:14,902 --> 00:45:16,622
and that you may be accessing through a keyboard.

799
00:45:16,922 --> 00:45:17,482
But other than that,

800
00:45:17,502 --> 00:45:18,542
they have nothing in common with each other.

801
00:45:19,542 --> 00:45:21,342
And so do you almost see this

802
00:45:21,342 --> 00:45:25,522
as a way of getting more attention from policymakers

803
00:45:25,522 --> 00:45:27,581
in the sense that if you are a real business

804
00:45:27,581 --> 00:45:29,202
that has a proven track record,

805
00:45:29,322 --> 00:45:30,282
they might actually listen to you

806
00:45:30,282 --> 00:45:31,862
more than being just a policy group in the UK?

807
00:45:31,862 --> 00:45:32,482
Yeah.

808
00:45:33,202 --> 00:45:34,662
Personally, I think that's a good summary.

809
00:45:35,162 --> 00:45:38,362
And the BPUK will continue doing its work

810
00:45:38,362 --> 00:45:39,742
and will continue writing papers

811
00:45:39,742 --> 00:45:42,942
and hopefully holding events and pushing forwards.

812
00:45:44,262 --> 00:45:47,202
But as you were talking a moment ago,

813
00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:51,422
I strongly feel a lot of the incentives here

814
00:45:51,422 --> 00:45:53,142
are ultimately going to be market-driven.

815
00:45:54,042 --> 00:45:56,222
So you said that there's no incentives

816
00:45:56,222 --> 00:45:57,342
for politicians to understand,

817
00:45:57,422 --> 00:45:59,081
but it will take away some of their power.

818
00:45:59,422 --> 00:46:00,182
That's true.

819
00:46:01,142 --> 00:46:02,642
But at some point, they may realize

820
00:46:02,642 --> 00:46:05,022
that they can actually get more money and more power

821
00:46:05,022 --> 00:46:06,862
by embracing it rather than resisting it.

822
00:46:07,182 --> 00:46:08,322
And I think that's a tipping point.

823
00:46:09,322 --> 00:46:11,682
And I've mentioned before that in some respects,

824
00:46:11,822 --> 00:46:14,282
I've always felt that commercial banks

825
00:46:14,282 --> 00:46:16,942
were going to be an ally in the fight against CBDCs.

826
00:46:17,422 --> 00:46:21,182
Largely because CBDCs have the potential to disintermediate.

827
00:46:21,302 --> 00:46:21,982
To circumvent that.

828
00:46:21,982 --> 00:46:23,022
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.

829
00:46:23,242 --> 00:46:23,902
Yeah, you get it.

830
00:46:25,522 --> 00:46:30,042
So at some point, once banks and other institutions and businesses

831
00:46:30,042 --> 00:46:32,622
realize and are demonstrating

832
00:46:32,622 --> 00:46:33,522
that there's a lot of money

833
00:46:33,522 --> 00:46:34,462
to be made in the space,

834
00:46:35,322 --> 00:46:38,022
then it's your incentives

835
00:46:38,022 --> 00:46:39,061
are bringing it into line

836
00:46:39,061 --> 00:46:39,942
with those of politicians

837
00:46:39,942 --> 00:46:41,702
who finally just want to tax businesses

838
00:46:41,702 --> 00:46:42,782
and tax people

839
00:46:42,782 --> 00:46:44,822
in order to make more laws,

840
00:46:44,902 --> 00:46:45,982
which hopefully won't be bad ones,

841
00:46:46,061 --> 00:46:47,442
because we'll be lobbying them.

842
00:46:47,882 --> 00:46:48,902
And I don't even think that,

843
00:46:49,002 --> 00:46:50,061
I think you're 100% right.

844
00:46:50,122 --> 00:46:51,422
That's not even speculation at this point,

845
00:46:51,462 --> 00:46:52,282
because we've seen what's happened

846
00:46:52,282 --> 00:46:53,522
in America with Larry Fink.

847
00:46:53,902 --> 00:46:55,442
He has gone from being someone

848
00:46:55,442 --> 00:46:57,862
who was strongly pushing this ESG narrative,

849
00:46:57,962 --> 00:46:58,842
which was very negative,

850
00:46:58,842 --> 00:47:03,882
especially for Bitcoin mining, to being like a pretend Bitcoiner who's now pushing Bitcoin.

851
00:47:04,682 --> 00:47:08,902
And I can see that thing happening to the UK as well. But it's just, I mean, we're still so far

852
00:47:08,902 --> 00:47:16,322
behind. Yeah. And honestly, I don't sadly have a good answer as to why we are so far behind.

853
00:47:16,882 --> 00:47:20,602
Because, I mean, return to Adam Back, who you mentioned earlier, you know, we've got an

854
00:47:20,602 --> 00:47:24,902
incredible reputation in this space. Some of the best minds who worked on this stuff have been Brits.

855
00:47:24,902 --> 00:47:33,662
And yet our government and our political class are full of people who don't understand and don't care.

856
00:47:33,662 --> 00:47:39,542
And honestly, I try to be nice to them. I believe a lot of them went into the jobs they do for good

857
00:47:39,542 --> 00:47:44,402
intentions. And sometimes I wonder whether we should simply just pay them more.

858
00:47:44,402 --> 00:47:50,102
Well, I mean, I don't disagree though. You would probably know the figure,

859
00:47:50,102 --> 00:47:53,642
but the Prime Minister of the UK earns a shockingly small amount of money for the job

860
00:47:53,642 --> 00:47:54,081
that they're doing.

861
00:47:54,362 --> 00:47:55,522
Yeah, I mean, not blowing my own trumpet,

862
00:47:55,622 --> 00:47:57,522
but when I was a senior associate at Ropes & Greer,

863
00:47:57,561 --> 00:47:58,702
I was earning more than the prime minister.

864
00:47:58,862 --> 00:48:00,042
Yeah, and that's insane.

865
00:48:00,342 --> 00:48:01,762
Like, there's no way a job of that...

866
00:48:01,762 --> 00:48:03,002
I mean, I was working hard on him.

867
00:48:03,402 --> 00:48:05,122
Yeah, well, but maybe if you paid more,

868
00:48:05,242 --> 00:48:05,702
you'd work harder.

869
00:48:05,702 --> 00:48:06,022
Well, yeah.

870
00:48:06,682 --> 00:48:07,382
Yeah, exactly.

871
00:48:07,742 --> 00:48:09,322
But I totally agree with that.

872
00:48:09,382 --> 00:48:11,122
I think the answer could be to pay these people more.

873
00:48:11,982 --> 00:48:14,022
Just getting back to the new business,

874
00:48:14,822 --> 00:48:15,622
how much are you raising?

875
00:48:16,081 --> 00:48:16,922
We've not even got there yet.

876
00:48:16,942 --> 00:48:18,102
How much Bitcoin are you going to stack?

877
00:48:19,382 --> 00:48:20,622
I can't give you an exact figure

878
00:48:20,622 --> 00:48:22,722
because the round hasn't closed yet.

879
00:48:22,722 --> 00:48:24,842
and it's not public yet,

880
00:48:24,902 --> 00:48:25,742
but it will be very soon.

881
00:48:26,702 --> 00:48:27,282
So we are,

882
00:48:27,682 --> 00:48:28,862
I think I can say

883
00:48:28,862 --> 00:48:30,922
we're raising a very healthy amount

884
00:48:30,922 --> 00:48:34,522
from a number of well-respected investors,

885
00:48:35,242 --> 00:48:36,561
some of whom you may know personally.

886
00:48:38,282 --> 00:48:39,762
That's just Danny Knowles,

887
00:48:39,942 --> 00:48:40,722
for example.

888
00:48:40,962 --> 00:48:41,302
I've heard of him.

889
00:48:43,982 --> 00:48:45,722
And like I say,

890
00:48:45,802 --> 00:48:48,822
we will deploy the vast majority of that

891
00:48:48,822 --> 00:48:50,882
immediately into Bitcoin.

892
00:48:50,882 --> 00:48:53,742
and then we'll get back on the road.

893
00:48:54,462 --> 00:48:56,182
And we're looking to raise more money

894
00:48:56,182 --> 00:48:59,322
to tell the equity story to more people

895
00:48:59,322 --> 00:49:01,922
and raise more and more Bitcoin.

896
00:49:02,502 --> 00:49:05,182
We want to grow as aggressively and as fast as possible.

897
00:49:06,002 --> 00:49:07,822
And to be honest, I really admire

898
00:49:07,822 --> 00:49:09,682
what Andrew at Smaller Web has done.

899
00:49:10,282 --> 00:49:14,402
And I like the fact that we have a very strong competitor.

900
00:49:15,482 --> 00:49:18,122
And in some ways, having them ahead of us

901
00:49:18,122 --> 00:49:19,882
is kind of fun.

902
00:49:19,882 --> 00:49:21,642
Did you ever run track when you were a kid?

903
00:49:21,642 --> 00:49:22,282
I know you played very...

904
00:49:22,282 --> 00:49:22,922
I was very slow.

905
00:49:22,922 --> 00:49:23,402
You were slow.

906
00:49:23,402 --> 00:49:28,202
Yeah, no, I never run track. I threw the discus, but I never run track.

907
00:49:29,002 --> 00:49:34,202
Discus was fun. I used to run track. I used to be first leg in our 4x100.

908
00:49:35,162 --> 00:49:35,482
And...

909
00:49:36,122 --> 00:49:38,202
You don't look like you should be fast. You're fucking massive.

910
00:49:38,202 --> 00:49:39,402
I was a lot smaller.

911
00:49:42,042 --> 00:49:43,642
And I used to be fast as well.

912
00:49:43,642 --> 00:49:50,322
But yeah, running the, in lane one, running the inside bend was wonderful.

913
00:49:50,742 --> 00:49:53,542
Because you could literally see how far ahead everyone was of you.

914
00:49:54,322 --> 00:49:57,662
And when you come around the bend, you suddenly realize you've overtaken them all.

915
00:49:58,662 --> 00:50:01,122
And that's the mental model I have in my mind here.

916
00:50:01,282 --> 00:50:02,682
I like the fact there are people ahead of us.

917
00:50:02,922 --> 00:50:04,722
It gives us something to aim for and something to overtake.

918
00:50:05,382 --> 00:50:06,642
So we should talk about Smart Web Company.

919
00:50:06,642 --> 00:50:09,581
Because they, I think it's the most successful IPO in UK history.

920
00:50:09,702 --> 00:50:10,002
Is that right?

921
00:50:10,002 --> 00:50:14,422
believe so on their metrics in terms of share price growth.

922
00:50:14,902 --> 00:50:16,382
And they launched on Atquis,

923
00:50:16,561 --> 00:50:20,162
which is a small exchange in the UK compared to the LSE.

924
00:50:20,462 --> 00:50:20,622
Yeah.

925
00:50:20,902 --> 00:50:22,182
You're launching on the same one.

926
00:50:22,322 --> 00:50:22,462
Yeah.

927
00:50:23,722 --> 00:50:25,561
I think I probably know the answer to this,

928
00:50:25,622 --> 00:50:27,162
but why are you launching on that one?

929
00:50:27,942 --> 00:50:31,702
Well, in some ways, it's quicker to market,

930
00:50:31,942 --> 00:50:35,142
and it's also a growth-focused exchange.

931
00:50:36,282 --> 00:50:39,802
So for those, and perhaps another thing to mention,

932
00:50:39,802 --> 00:50:41,642
is that they also have a degree of familiarity

933
00:50:41,642 --> 00:50:43,782
with this type of business model.

934
00:50:44,242 --> 00:50:45,282
So those things are helpful.

935
00:50:46,342 --> 00:50:49,322
The process of going through an IPO is extremely rigorous.

936
00:50:50,302 --> 00:50:52,462
And I won't go into details here

937
00:50:52,462 --> 00:50:53,922
because it's easy to look them up.

938
00:50:54,122 --> 00:50:56,222
But just for context sake,

939
00:50:56,922 --> 00:50:58,802
a lot of regulation has to be complied with,

940
00:50:58,882 --> 00:51:00,382
a lot of disclosures have to be made,

941
00:51:00,702 --> 00:51:03,182
and an awful lot of paperwork has to be done.

942
00:51:03,502 --> 00:51:05,142
For example, every statement that you make

943
00:51:05,142 --> 00:51:07,182
in your prospectus or your offering document,

944
00:51:07,182 --> 00:51:09,162
which is the basis on which investors

945
00:51:09,162 --> 00:51:10,762
are putting their money into your company

946
00:51:10,762 --> 00:51:12,561
needs to be verifiably true.

947
00:51:13,102 --> 00:51:14,882
And each of those statements need to be checked

948
00:51:14,882 --> 00:51:16,722
in rigorous detail by your lawyers,

949
00:51:16,842 --> 00:51:18,622
your accountants, your financial advisor.

950
00:51:19,882 --> 00:51:23,682
So the process of launching on any exchange is rigorous.

951
00:51:24,782 --> 00:51:26,882
Having an exchange that understands

952
00:51:26,882 --> 00:51:27,982
your business model is helpful.

953
00:51:28,322 --> 00:51:31,122
And also launching on a growth market

954
00:51:31,122 --> 00:51:33,222
is also helpful because, frankly,

955
00:51:33,602 --> 00:51:34,302
as I mentioned before,

956
00:51:34,581 --> 00:51:35,561
we're not a zombie company.

957
00:51:35,561 --> 00:51:37,282
We're a day one business.

958
00:51:38,041 --> 00:51:38,962
And effectively,

959
00:51:39,762 --> 00:51:51,382
our first day of trading is also you could be thought of as effectively our first day of actually doing business because it the day on which we can commence our business model When it comes to Aquis

960
00:51:51,482 --> 00:51:54,862
I see there being kind of positives and negatives

961
00:51:54,862 --> 00:51:56,482
to being on an exchange of that size.

962
00:51:57,442 --> 00:51:59,722
And the benefit there is like if this is retail driven,

963
00:51:59,842 --> 00:52:01,262
it's real like spot driven market

964
00:52:01,262 --> 00:52:03,602
without all that kind of financial engineering on top.

965
00:52:03,722 --> 00:52:06,543
But does it also limit your upside potential

966
00:52:06,543 --> 00:52:08,302
without the real big money being there?

967
00:52:09,162 --> 00:52:10,322
I think that's fair.

968
00:52:10,322 --> 00:52:13,342
and this is a comment made generally about the wider market,

969
00:52:13,482 --> 00:52:15,842
not simply B-Hodl and our company.

970
00:52:16,742 --> 00:52:18,782
I think that's a fair categorization.

971
00:52:19,302 --> 00:52:20,442
So you've got to think about

972
00:52:20,442 --> 00:52:23,862
what's the size of the pool in which you're swimming

973
00:52:23,862 --> 00:52:27,742
and who might join that pool

974
00:52:27,742 --> 00:52:32,563
and what's the total size of that pool.

975
00:52:33,102 --> 00:52:37,102
So SmarterWeb grew to about a billion market cap quite quickly,

976
00:52:37,102 --> 00:52:41,102
largely driven from retail and high-knit worths.

977
00:52:42,342 --> 00:52:43,862
A billion is great,

978
00:52:44,023 --> 00:52:46,523
but to access bigger pools of capital,

979
00:52:46,682 --> 00:52:48,182
you would ideally also list,

980
00:52:48,262 --> 00:52:49,842
and you would potentially move your listing

981
00:52:49,842 --> 00:52:53,322
from Acquist maybe to AIM or eventually the LSE.

982
00:52:54,523 --> 00:52:58,342
And I probably can't give too many details about this,

983
00:52:58,342 --> 00:53:01,962
but in order to access pools of capital

984
00:53:01,962 --> 00:53:05,402
that are larger than what might be available on Acquist,

985
00:53:05,402 --> 00:53:09,742
that would be something that the board would consider.

986
00:53:09,862 --> 00:53:14,602
And again, at all times with a view on maximizing shareholder value

987
00:53:14,602 --> 00:53:16,482
and is it in the best interest of the company.

988
00:53:17,563 --> 00:53:20,162
But there is a potential pathway to move into those other exchanges.

989
00:53:20,422 --> 00:53:23,442
It's perfectly possible to move the listing

990
00:53:23,442 --> 00:53:26,982
and it's even possible to move a listing from one country to another.

991
00:53:27,642 --> 00:53:28,822
Some countries are dual listed.

992
00:53:28,822 --> 00:53:31,523
So some companies, Carnival Cruise Ships,

993
00:53:31,523 --> 00:53:36,382
from, they used to be dual listed on London and New York's Aquis Exchange.

994
00:53:36,902 --> 00:53:42,142
Okay, but you don't see the fact that Aquis being mainly, well, first of all, it's a very

995
00:53:42,142 --> 00:53:44,922
small market compared to LSE, mainly retail.

996
00:53:45,023 --> 00:53:45,882
You don't see that as a negative.

997
00:53:46,122 --> 00:53:47,342
Could it be a positive for you?

998
00:53:48,302 --> 00:53:49,262
Ideally, positive initially.

999
00:53:49,523 --> 00:53:50,882
And that's why we've chosen to go there.

1000
00:53:51,282 --> 00:53:58,922
Speed to market, word of mouth, and hopefully supportive of the rate at which we hope to

1001
00:53:58,922 --> 00:53:59,122
grow.

1002
00:53:59,122 --> 00:54:04,742
And so when, again, back to SmarterWebCompany, they had an insane rise.

1003
00:54:05,482 --> 00:54:06,602
They did incredibly well.

1004
00:54:07,302 --> 00:54:10,362
Share price is down quite a lot from the top that they put in.

1005
00:54:10,662 --> 00:54:15,462
Is that because they've diluted, or is that just the way that the market's gone?

1006
00:54:15,822 --> 00:54:20,082
I think they've suffered from a general market-wide reduction

1007
00:54:20,082 --> 00:54:25,342
because Coincilium suffered a similar drop in share price at roughly the same time.

1008
00:54:25,342 --> 00:54:30,822
And actually, MicroStrategy's stock hasn't been performing particularly well

1009
00:54:30,822 --> 00:54:31,842
over the same period as well.

1010
00:54:32,702 --> 00:54:36,342
So it's possible that's a wider macro market reaction.

1011
00:54:37,182 --> 00:54:40,023
And, I mean, we've been in Bitcoin for a long time.

1012
00:54:40,182 --> 00:54:43,202
We know what happens when a price goes vertical.

1013
00:54:44,122 --> 00:54:45,282
It goes the other way quite quickly.

1014
00:54:45,422 --> 00:54:46,043
Well, yeah.

1015
00:54:46,582 --> 00:54:47,422
It swings and roundabouts.

1016
00:54:47,523 --> 00:54:49,502
It's the little meme of the guy on the roller coaster, isn't it?

1017
00:54:49,563 --> 00:54:49,742
Yeah.

1018
00:54:50,102 --> 00:54:53,543
So let's go into the MNAV stuff

1019
00:54:53,543 --> 00:54:56,122
because I don't actually know what strategy is at.

1020
00:54:56,162 --> 00:54:57,222
I think it's under two at the moment.

1021
00:54:57,762 --> 00:55:00,402
I think Metaplanet's at like three and a half

1022
00:55:00,402 --> 00:55:01,382
or something like that.

1023
00:55:01,523 --> 00:55:01,702
A bit higher.

1024
00:55:02,023 --> 00:55:05,862
What do you think a realistic, mature MNAV

1025
00:55:05,862 --> 00:55:07,382
for a company like this should be?

1026
00:55:08,682 --> 00:55:10,523
I think the answer would depend on where you are

1027
00:55:10,523 --> 00:55:11,882
in Bitcoin's history.

1028
00:55:12,122 --> 00:55:15,142
So eventually over the very long term,

1029
00:55:15,282 --> 00:55:17,802
I would have thought that most MNAVs would trend to one,

1030
00:55:18,002 --> 00:55:18,442
wouldn't they?

1031
00:55:18,523 --> 00:55:23,162
Because once all of the Bitcoin has been issued and acquired,

1032
00:55:23,543 --> 00:55:28,402
and absent any underlying operating business,

1033
00:55:29,282 --> 00:55:31,702
then your multiple is,

1034
00:55:32,582 --> 00:55:33,602
well, actually, perhaps that's not fair.

1035
00:55:33,702 --> 00:55:36,442
So maybe let's think about how companies are traditionally valued.

1036
00:55:36,442 --> 00:55:40,862
So you'll be familiar with the different ways of valuing companies

1037
00:55:40,862 --> 00:55:42,222
just to rattle a few off.

1038
00:55:42,622 --> 00:55:45,322
You have an EBITDA multiple, a discounted cash flow multiple.

1039
00:55:45,722 --> 00:55:48,362
For an asset management business, you might have an AUM multiple.

1040
00:55:49,262 --> 00:55:51,862
And all valuations are forward-looking.

1041
00:55:51,862 --> 00:55:55,402
They're about the expectations of a future value or future cash flow.

1042
00:55:56,162 --> 00:56:00,002
So when I take one of the most basic being an EBITDA multiple,

1043
00:56:00,382 --> 00:56:04,302
that's your earnings before interest, tax, depreciation, and amortization.

1044
00:56:05,462 --> 00:56:07,742
So when I was working in private equity,

1045
00:56:07,902 --> 00:56:13,282
we would see EBITDA multiples between five going up to 12 times,

1046
00:56:13,362 --> 00:56:16,023
which was pretty nuts in a private equity business.

1047
00:56:16,142 --> 00:56:18,742
And what that translates to in actual cash terms

1048
00:56:18,742 --> 00:56:22,242
is that today's value of the company

1049
00:56:22,242 --> 00:56:26,122
includes the expectations of between 5 and 12 years

1050
00:56:26,122 --> 00:56:27,802
of future cash flow at that same level.

1051
00:56:28,702 --> 00:56:35,162
And that's the basic principle on which MNAV potentially works.

1052
00:56:35,282 --> 00:56:37,523
So MNAV is obviously the...

1053
00:56:37,523 --> 00:56:40,782
It's a ratio between the enterprise value of the company

1054
00:56:40,782 --> 00:56:44,342
and the asset value of the Bitcoin that you hold, basically.

1055
00:56:44,342 --> 00:56:51,002
So it's exposed to the wide variations and fluctuations in the Bitcoin price, and also

1056
00:56:51,002 --> 00:56:55,842
the rate at which the company can aggressively acquire it.

1057
00:56:55,842 --> 00:57:03,642
So in some ways, valuing a company on an MNAV that is greater than one isn't necessarily

1058
00:57:03,642 --> 00:57:08,462
illogical, because what you're assuming there is that there are two things really, I think.

1059
00:57:08,462 --> 00:57:12,222
Firstly that the Bitcoin which you hold is likely to continue appreciating, I forget

1060
00:57:12,222 --> 00:57:13,642
what the cargo of Bitcoin is at the moment.

1061
00:57:13,702 --> 00:57:14,523
It's about 40%.

1062
00:57:14,523 --> 00:57:16,023
37%, something like that, yeah.

1063
00:57:16,122 --> 00:57:16,802
Yeah, there you go.

1064
00:57:17,362 --> 00:57:19,762
So if you're doing an MNAR valuation,

1065
00:57:20,202 --> 00:57:23,462
you're looking at a 40% annual increase

1066
00:57:23,462 --> 00:57:25,322
over X period of time.

1067
00:57:25,322 --> 00:57:28,182
And in the example I just gave on EBITDA,

1068
00:57:28,722 --> 00:57:31,322
even in the PE industry, that was 5 to 12.

1069
00:57:31,902 --> 00:57:33,482
The tech giants in the US,

1070
00:57:33,602 --> 00:57:36,322
I think some of them are on insane multiples,

1071
00:57:36,622 --> 00:57:37,962
you know, 30, 40, 50.

1072
00:57:37,962 --> 00:57:39,762
I think Costco's at like 20-something.

1073
00:57:39,882 --> 00:57:40,523
It's insane.

1074
00:57:40,523 --> 00:57:43,442
which is functionally insane.

1075
00:57:43,662 --> 00:57:44,902
That's a whole different conversation

1076
00:57:44,902 --> 00:57:50,063
around why are those valuations so high

1077
00:57:50,063 --> 00:57:51,782
and is that because people are parking their money.

1078
00:57:52,082 --> 00:57:52,622
Well, exactly.

1079
00:57:52,742 --> 00:57:54,102
People are parking their money in them

1080
00:57:54,102 --> 00:57:55,563
because they can't leave it in the bank account.

1081
00:57:56,362 --> 00:57:58,602
So I think potentially,

1082
00:57:58,802 --> 00:58:00,782
slightly backtracking on what I said a moment ago,

1083
00:58:01,222 --> 00:58:02,642
an MNav greater than one

1084
00:58:02,642 --> 00:58:05,202
if you factor into the MNav

1085
00:58:05,202 --> 00:58:06,702
the future gains that you see

1086
00:58:06,702 --> 00:58:07,742
in your Bitcoin holdings.

1087
00:58:07,862 --> 00:58:09,563
So even if you never bought another Bitcoin,

1088
00:58:09,563 --> 00:58:12,782
Let's say you get, I don't know, nice round number, 2100.

1089
00:58:13,262 --> 00:58:14,882
Even if you never bought another Bitcoin,

1090
00:58:15,462 --> 00:58:19,702
if the cargo stays reasonably high, the compound annual growth rate,

1091
00:58:20,382 --> 00:58:23,102
then for the period that you hold the stock,

1092
00:58:23,182 --> 00:58:28,302
you might look to see appreciation based on the number of years you hold it

1093
00:58:28,302 --> 00:58:30,502
multiplied by the compound annual growth rate.

1094
00:58:31,242 --> 00:58:34,382
So even were you never to buy any more Bitcoin,

1095
00:58:34,702 --> 00:58:37,602
you could potentially see an MNAV of greater than

1096
00:58:37,602 --> 00:58:38,982
or significantly greater than one.

1097
00:58:38,982 --> 00:58:43,802
It's because, to me, I think these treasury companies have to keep an MNAV of greater than one.

1098
00:58:43,922 --> 00:58:46,362
Otherwise, I don't see why anyone would buy them.

1099
00:58:47,563 --> 00:58:51,142
Well, yes, it's an elegant point well made.

1100
00:58:52,362 --> 00:59:00,402
But so when you look at this, obviously, there's always the growth period of a company like this where MNAVs tend to go high.

1101
00:59:00,802 --> 00:59:02,082
Whether that happens or not, who knows?

1102
00:59:02,502 --> 00:59:04,023
That's up to the market to decide.

1103
00:59:04,023 --> 00:59:07,362
but what I can't quite figure out

1104
00:59:07,362 --> 00:59:09,563
is what the end game for these companies is

1105
00:59:09,563 --> 00:59:11,662
like is one and a half MNAV

1106
00:59:11,662 --> 00:59:14,082
enough to make it interesting to investors

1107
00:59:14,082 --> 00:59:16,402
or like because at some point

1108
00:59:16,402 --> 00:59:19,162
you have to factor in risk of parting with your keys

1109
00:59:19,162 --> 00:59:21,023
essentially like if the comparison is

1110
00:59:21,023 --> 00:59:22,482
you either buy one of these treasury companies

1111
00:59:22,482 --> 00:59:23,242
or you buy Bitcoin

1112
00:59:23,242 --> 00:59:25,442
you can buy Bitcoin at 1x MNAV

1113
00:59:25,442 --> 00:59:27,662
yourself with no risk

1114
00:59:27,662 --> 00:59:28,682
or the risk is with you

1115
00:59:28,682 --> 00:59:32,023
so like what is the amount above one

1116
00:59:32,023 --> 00:59:33,642
that these treasury companies have to retain

1117
00:59:33,642 --> 00:59:35,043
to make them an interesting proposition?

1118
00:59:36,722 --> 00:59:38,082
I think that's an interesting question.

1119
00:59:38,142 --> 00:59:39,362
I can't answer for other companies,

1120
00:59:39,502 --> 00:59:40,802
but I think certainly for ours,

1121
00:59:40,982 --> 00:59:42,482
the answer is quite simple,

1122
00:59:42,563 --> 00:59:45,063
that we are going to be a Bitcoin business,

1123
00:59:45,063 --> 00:59:46,682
not just a Bitcoin holding business.

1124
00:59:48,322 --> 00:59:49,662
And so for us,

1125
00:59:51,142 --> 00:59:54,902
being and developing the Bitcoin infrastructure

1126
00:59:54,902 --> 00:59:58,162
and services side is an additional kicker

1127
00:59:58,162 --> 00:59:59,882
that you would have in terms of our valuation.

1128
01:00:00,882 --> 01:00:03,402
And so being an actual operating business

1129
01:00:03,402 --> 01:00:08,043
that derives cash flow and revenues from additional services in the Bitcoin industry

1130
01:00:08,043 --> 01:00:11,582
is another way in which you could value the business.

1131
01:00:12,362 --> 01:00:17,642
In fact, over time, it might not be unfair to value us on an EBITDA multiple basis, for example.

1132
01:00:18,362 --> 01:00:24,342
Or if our business models, proposition, and forecast are successful,

1133
01:00:24,523 --> 01:00:27,063
you could even value us on a DCF basis.

1134
01:00:28,202 --> 01:00:31,242
So, I mean, there are all kinds of different ways of valuing companies,

1135
01:00:31,242 --> 01:00:34,202
and you're not restricted in using one or the other.

1136
01:00:34,682 --> 01:00:36,602
And I mentioned private equity earlier.

1137
01:00:36,602 --> 01:00:38,282
A lot of private equity houses will have their own

1138
01:00:39,082 --> 01:00:41,962
in-house secret source valuation models that they will use.

1139
01:00:44,682 --> 01:00:45,802
I think it's an interesting question.

1140
01:00:45,802 --> 01:00:48,602
I think you really got to drill down into what the business actually does.

1141
01:00:49,242 --> 01:00:51,962
If all your business does is buy and hold Bitcoin...

1142
01:00:51,962 --> 01:00:53,962
It's not interesting.

1143
01:00:53,962 --> 01:00:54,762
Exactly.

1144
01:00:55,962 --> 01:01:00,202
Well, other than academically, if you're watching your stock ticker.

1145
01:01:00,202 --> 01:01:03,043
if all your business does is own and hold Bitcoin

1146
01:01:03,043 --> 01:01:04,882
then perhaps that's the only valuation metric

1147
01:01:04,882 --> 01:01:05,682
that you should use

1148
01:01:05,682 --> 01:01:08,722
but if your business doesn't more than just hold it

1149
01:01:08,722 --> 01:01:12,043
then it's interesting to consider

1150
01:01:12,043 --> 01:01:14,462
other valuation methodologies

1151
01:01:14,462 --> 01:01:15,563
that may also be applicable

1152
01:01:15,563 --> 01:01:18,002
yeah okay so like looking further out

1153
01:01:18,002 --> 01:01:18,862
because it's funny

1154
01:01:18,862 --> 01:01:20,462
this podcast at the moment

1155
01:01:20,462 --> 01:01:22,142
almost feels like a Bitcoin treasury podcast

1156
01:01:22,142 --> 01:01:23,482
it comes up in every show

1157
01:01:23,482 --> 01:01:24,922
it's all people want to talk about

1158
01:01:24,922 --> 01:01:27,762
and like to be fully transparent

1159
01:01:27,762 --> 01:01:29,262
I find a lot of it boring

1160
01:01:29,262 --> 01:01:34,482
and the reason being like this is not why I got into Bitcoin.

1161
01:01:34,602 --> 01:01:37,043
I got into Bitcoin for sort of the freedom money side of things.

1162
01:01:37,802 --> 01:01:40,322
At the same time, I would never have done this investment

1163
01:01:40,322 --> 01:01:43,102
if I didn't think this was something a little bit unique

1164
01:01:43,102 --> 01:01:46,543
and honestly the big thing was the team behind it.

1165
01:01:46,662 --> 01:01:48,382
Like I trust these are actual Bitcoiners

1166
01:01:48,382 --> 01:01:50,402
and there's a lot of people that are just sort of cosplaying

1167
01:01:50,402 --> 01:01:51,682
as Bitcoiners doing this thing.

1168
01:01:52,662 --> 01:01:55,102
But if you look further out as this matures,

1169
01:01:56,063 --> 01:01:58,282
at the moment we're seeing a Bitcoin treasury company

1170
01:01:58,282 --> 01:01:59,482
literally every week.

1171
01:01:59,642 --> 01:02:02,063
Do you think that is going to diminish or increase?

1172
01:02:04,082 --> 01:02:06,482
I suspect the spate of Bitcoin trading companies

1173
01:02:06,482 --> 01:02:07,543
will probably slow down.

1174
01:02:07,622 --> 01:02:08,962
And that's just my personal view,

1175
01:02:09,142 --> 01:02:11,502
not one from B-Hodl.

1176
01:02:12,462 --> 01:02:19,523
I also think the space for businesses working in the sector

1177
01:02:19,523 --> 01:02:22,023
hopefully will increase.

1178
01:02:23,802 --> 01:02:26,802
And again, taking a very, very sort of bird's eye view of this,

1179
01:02:26,802 --> 01:02:33,982
I think it's a principle that all of the team hold, that eventually all companies will hold

1180
01:02:33,982 --> 01:02:37,902
Bitcoin on their balance sheet. That's something I'm very bullish on. I want to see the big

1181
01:02:37,902 --> 01:02:43,242
companies that have cash flows buying Bitcoin. That's way more interesting to me than some

1182
01:02:43,242 --> 01:02:48,362
random coffee company in some tiny country doing a Bitcoin treasury play to try and save their

1183
01:02:48,362 --> 01:02:54,322
balance sheet. But I think what you said there, you've pinpointed exactly why you would do it.

1184
01:02:54,322 --> 01:02:56,342
why would you hold Bitcoin on your balance sheet

1185
01:02:56,342 --> 01:02:57,422
if you're a small company?

1186
01:02:57,662 --> 01:02:58,862
It's because you don't want to see

1187
01:02:58,862 --> 01:03:00,882
the value of your cash treasury

1188
01:03:00,882 --> 01:03:03,742
be the melting ice cube that Saylor talked about years ago.

1189
01:03:04,802 --> 01:03:08,222
And if you think about it in a percentage term,

1190
01:03:08,362 --> 01:03:09,182
it's utterly astonishing.

1191
01:03:09,282 --> 01:03:11,563
I forget how much cash Apple had on its balance sheet,

1192
01:03:11,622 --> 01:03:13,722
but at one point it was sitting on something at 70 billion.

1193
01:03:14,662 --> 01:03:17,002
And at the rate of inflation at the time,

1194
01:03:17,762 --> 01:03:19,302
that was evaporating.

1195
01:03:19,802 --> 01:03:21,882
And yet they did nothing with it.

1196
01:03:21,882 --> 01:03:23,242
They kept it in cash.

1197
01:03:24,322 --> 01:03:27,282
I find that decision inexplicable.

1198
01:03:27,482 --> 01:03:27,682
I agree.

1199
01:03:27,862 --> 01:03:29,582
Why wouldn't they allocate even 1%

1200
01:03:29,582 --> 01:03:31,602
into the best-performing asset of all time?

1201
01:03:32,582 --> 01:03:33,882
They would have...

1202
01:03:33,882 --> 01:03:35,282
I mean...

1203
01:03:35,282 --> 01:03:37,202
And again, looking at it in risk-adjusted,

1204
01:03:37,282 --> 01:03:39,222
I love it when people bring up Bitcoin risk.

1205
01:03:39,842 --> 01:03:41,122
Risk is a part of life.

1206
01:03:41,282 --> 01:03:42,122
Risk is fun.

1207
01:03:42,662 --> 01:03:44,162
And all you need to decide

1208
01:03:44,162 --> 01:03:45,882
is what's your level of risk tolerance

1209
01:03:45,882 --> 01:03:48,282
and to whom do you owe the duties to.

1210
01:03:48,702 --> 01:03:50,582
So if I'm a manager of someone else's money,

1211
01:03:50,582 --> 01:03:51,582
I owe...

1212
01:03:51,582 --> 01:03:53,842
I have fiduciary responsibilities to them

1213
01:03:53,842 --> 01:03:56,122
to manage the money as responsibly as I possibly can

1214
01:03:56,122 --> 01:03:59,922
with a level of risk to which they are accustomed and happy with.

1215
01:04:01,222 --> 01:04:06,262
So if they are happy for me to take a slightly riskier position

1216
01:04:06,262 --> 01:04:07,642
with 1% of their capital,

1217
01:04:07,962 --> 01:04:10,642
their worst case now is they lose 1% of their capital,

1218
01:04:10,762 --> 01:04:11,642
completely gone forever.

1219
01:04:12,282 --> 01:04:13,642
So that's your absolute worst case.

1220
01:04:13,742 --> 01:04:16,142
Well, I think the actual worst case is maybe different to that.

1221
01:04:16,662 --> 01:04:17,922
And correct me if I'm wrong here,

1222
01:04:17,982 --> 01:04:21,102
but the way I think about the reason companies like Apple don't do it

1223
01:04:21,102 --> 01:04:24,422
is probably, one, they're very conservative in nature.

1224
01:04:25,063 --> 01:04:26,982
And I think what they'd be worried about,

1225
01:04:27,142 --> 01:04:28,622
although I do not think this would happen,

1226
01:04:28,702 --> 01:04:31,682
is if they decided to allocate 1% of their cash position to Bitcoin,

1227
01:04:31,902 --> 01:04:33,082
what happens to the share price?

1228
01:04:33,142 --> 01:04:35,202
And I think they'd be worrying the share price then falls,

1229
01:04:36,523 --> 01:04:37,762
which I don't think would happen.

1230
01:04:40,162 --> 01:04:41,082
I could be wrong.

1231
01:04:41,462 --> 01:04:43,563
I suspect, I mean, I'm just playing that through.

1232
01:04:44,063 --> 01:04:47,523
If Apple were to buy Bitcoin, would their share price fall?

1233
01:04:47,582 --> 01:04:48,182
No, it wouldn't.

1234
01:04:48,282 --> 01:04:49,842
I really don't think it would fall,

1235
01:04:49,842 --> 01:04:53,162
but I think that's the risk that they're trading off.

1236
01:04:53,242 --> 01:04:53,502
Well, yeah.

1237
01:04:53,922 --> 01:04:56,122
Remember, your decision-making at a company that big

1238
01:04:56,122 --> 01:04:57,543
is very slow and very cumbersome,

1239
01:04:57,702 --> 01:04:59,422
which is why we've seen Bitcoin adoption

1240
01:04:59,422 --> 01:05:00,642
largely by smaller companies.

1241
01:05:01,222 --> 01:05:02,842
So for Apple to make a decision like that,

1242
01:05:02,882 --> 01:05:04,222
it would need to go through the risk committee.

1243
01:05:04,543 --> 01:05:06,122
You would have many different board meetings.

1244
01:05:07,023 --> 01:05:10,682
There would be investor relations calls,

1245
01:05:10,862 --> 01:05:12,002
and a lot of the investors might say,

1246
01:05:12,102 --> 01:05:13,942
we don't like exposure to Bitcoin, don't do this.

1247
01:05:14,543 --> 01:05:17,482
You probably saw the recent proposition

1248
01:05:17,482 --> 01:05:18,342
of Microsoft's board,

1249
01:05:18,442 --> 01:05:19,742
whether Microsoft should adopt Bitcoin.

1250
01:05:19,842 --> 01:05:21,122
When Saylor did his call with them.

1251
01:05:21,122 --> 01:05:25,362
Yes, exactly. And they voted no. I was completely unsurprised by that.

1252
01:05:25,362 --> 01:05:26,002
Yeah, me too.

1253
01:05:26,002 --> 01:05:28,082
I was completely unsurprised. And you've got to remember that,

1254
01:05:29,602 --> 01:05:35,122
this is a slightly geeky point, but one that's important. A lot of the shares of these very big

1255
01:05:35,122 --> 01:05:41,282
companies are held not by active, motivated investors who go to shareholder meetings and vote.

1256
01:05:41,282 --> 01:05:47,442
They are held by funds like BlackRock or like Hargreaves-Lanstan. And those institutions will

1257
01:05:47,442 --> 01:05:50,922
will hold those shares on behalf of millions and millions of small investors.

1258
01:05:50,922 --> 01:05:55,382
You know, I own some Microsoft shares, not many, three or four, something like that.

1259
01:05:55,442 --> 01:05:55,842
Shitcoiner.

1260
01:05:57,722 --> 01:05:59,282
I still use a PC.

1261
01:06:01,742 --> 01:06:06,682
But I didn't vote on their shareholders because Hargoose lands on hold so on my behalf.

1262
01:06:07,222 --> 01:06:13,442
And most of the fund providers and platforms will have a policy in place that they will

1263
01:06:13,442 --> 01:06:16,242
vote on shareholder votes in accordance with the recommendations of the board.

1264
01:06:16,242 --> 01:06:19,622
and the board recommends vote no on adopting Bitcoin.

1265
01:06:20,222 --> 01:06:23,322
So the vast majority of people vote no.

1266
01:06:23,742 --> 01:06:26,582
And the reason people notice activist investors

1267
01:06:26,582 --> 01:06:28,702
is because they're so extraordinarily rare.

1268
01:06:29,242 --> 01:06:30,622
There's an activist investor at Disney

1269
01:06:30,622 --> 01:06:32,682
who's like, I think he holds like two, three percent.

1270
01:06:32,802 --> 01:06:34,682
He's been making a nuisance of himself

1271
01:06:34,682 --> 01:06:37,023
over the last few years in a relatively amusing way.

1272
01:06:37,782 --> 01:06:40,382
But people notice him because he's obsessed.

1273
01:06:40,382 --> 01:06:40,982
What's he been doing?

1274
01:06:41,222 --> 01:06:41,802
I can't remember.

1275
01:06:41,802 --> 01:06:44,862
He's been, I think he's been having a go

1276
01:06:44,862 --> 01:06:48,782
about the direction of the company and filmmaking decisions and so on.

1277
01:06:48,782 --> 01:06:49,582
About Snow White.

1278
01:06:49,582 --> 01:06:53,822
Well, who wouldn't? Actually, in fairness, I haven't seen Snow White,

1279
01:06:53,822 --> 01:06:55,902
so I probably should be rude about it. Me neither. Apart from,

1280
01:06:55,902 --> 01:06:58,222
I have been watching the original version with my daughter.

1281
01:06:58,222 --> 01:06:59,023
Oh, sweet.

1282
01:06:59,023 --> 01:07:01,182
Yeah. But I've not seen the new one.

1283
01:07:03,582 --> 01:07:07,023
Freddie, is there anything that you want to talk about about this company that we've not covered

1284
01:07:07,023 --> 01:07:14,543
yet? I think it's worth reiterating our long-term vision for it. Day one, it's about

1285
01:07:14,862 --> 01:07:21,342
acquiring as much Bitcoin as we can. But we want to be an absolutely integral part of the Bitcoin

1286
01:07:21,342 --> 01:07:29,182
infrastructure system. And that's starting with our participation as a Lightning Node Runner, which

1287
01:07:29,182 --> 01:07:35,023
will have two benefits, both generating revenue and secondly, making the network more stable.

1288
01:07:35,982 --> 01:07:40,862
And then we really want to be a focal point for the growth of the Bitcoin industry in the United

1289
01:07:40,862 --> 01:07:48,682
Kingdom. And if we can achieve those things, I'll go to bed happy that I've been able to deliver

1290
01:07:48,682 --> 01:07:54,722
value for shareholders and also promote the adoption of Bitcoin in the United Kingdom.

1291
01:07:55,502 --> 01:08:01,602
I think that's a very honorable goal. We need that to happen. And I'm sorry if I've come across

1292
01:08:01,602 --> 01:08:05,642
skeptical at any of this, but truthfully, I am skeptical of a lot of these treasury companies.

1293
01:08:05,642 --> 01:08:10,722
I've literally put my money here, which is like a vote of confidence in the sense that

1294
01:08:10,722 --> 01:08:12,282
I do think you guys can do something different.

1295
01:08:12,402 --> 01:08:13,002
I hope you can.

1296
01:08:13,802 --> 01:08:15,122
I'm going to be watching it pretty closely.

1297
01:08:15,722 --> 01:08:18,482
We are, I mean, look, I think you're a mate.

1298
01:08:18,643 --> 01:08:23,602
And not only do I owe your fiduciary duty to you, but I absolutely want to see you make

1299
01:08:23,602 --> 01:08:24,282
the best of your investment.

1300
01:08:24,662 --> 01:08:25,482
Do you work for me now?

1301
01:08:26,502 --> 01:08:27,683
I suppose actually I do.

1302
01:08:28,542 --> 01:08:29,242
There we go.

1303
01:08:29,262 --> 01:08:30,183
It's the meme on the boat.

1304
01:08:31,382 --> 01:08:32,143
I'm the captain.

1305
01:08:33,102 --> 01:08:34,442
Well, I'm excited for this, Freddie.

1306
01:08:34,442 --> 01:08:35,402
Thank you for the time.

1307
01:08:35,402 --> 01:08:39,583
And when you can talk about kind of the future business plans for this company,

1308
01:08:39,702 --> 01:08:40,382
I'd like to do it again.

1309
01:08:40,583 --> 01:08:41,282
I'd love to come back.

1310
01:08:41,523 --> 01:08:42,063
Thank you so much.

1311
01:08:42,123 --> 01:08:42,382
All right.

1312
01:08:42,462 --> 01:08:42,962
Appreciate you.

1313
01:08:43,382 --> 01:08:43,782
Thank you, man.

1314
01:08:43,802 --> 01:08:44,083
Thank you.

1315
01:08:44,322 --> 01:08:44,523
Cheers.