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Bitcoin is the cheat code.

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And if all you want to do is buy Bitcoin, it's the cheat code because you can outperform

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Wall Street and you can outperform private equity and venture capital and all those things

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just buying Bitcoin.

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But not everybody is able to buy enough Bitcoin to really get the life that they want or set

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up their future generations the way they want.

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And if you really want to build wealth, then you have to build a system around the Bitcoin

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to grow it faster.

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Forget the hustle culture.

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and instead you have this asset base,

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the cheat code, it is the most liquid,

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best compounding returning asset that we have.

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Your income can't outrun the inflation that's coming.

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You cannot increase your income fast enough

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to keep up with the rate of inflation that's coming.

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Wages have not kept up and they won't keep up.

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The only way that it will is with your assets.

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man your uh your video with sailor is is uh getting some heat my twitter has been blowing up

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it seems it seems like did you watch it i didn't get to see the whole thing i saw so i saw people

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blowing up on it yeah i saw it rudimentary guess but 20 25 of the people were like danny why would

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you ask such stupid questions and 75 of the people were like danny you blew sailor up he got so you

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know, whatever, more for you, obviously. Uh, I didn't even think it was that controversial

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question. I watched the, uh, I watched the intro and I watched how you set it up and I could see

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how that could make him antagonistic right off the bat. Why? What do you think I did wrong on that?

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So what happens is the, in communication, if I ask you, if, if I make a statement and then I ask

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you a question and you answer the question, then you automatically agree to the frame I set.

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Okay.

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So that's like a communication rule.

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I can't even remember exactly how I asked the question.

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So you said 2025 was sort of a bad year,

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a disappointing year for Bitcoin.

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That's how you started it.

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So that started the conversation,

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but he didn't blow up on me at that point.

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No, I know.

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But it automatically kind of put this like negative tone

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where it's like 2025 was a pretty bad year for,

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I think you said called it a disappointing year for Bitcoin.

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I think I said Bitcoin price.

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I don't think you said price.

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I think you just said-

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Maybe not.

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Anyway, but so he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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It was anything but disappointing.

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He went on this rant.

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Like we made a new all-time high in Q4.

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Yeah.

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And so then it kind of threw him on his heels.

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But it seemed like I ran it through AI to figure it out.

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And it seemed like the crux of the matter, the argument back and forth with you guys

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was if a company drops below one times MNAV, how does it recover?

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It was kind of that.

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So I think-

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You were trying to get him to answer that and he wouldn't answer it.

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That was actually a little later.

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I think I've actually, I've not listened back.

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But I think the first question that set him off was me basically saying, how many treasury companies can the market sustain?

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Because if you look at it right now, it doesn't seem like it can sustain 200 companies.

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Almost all of them are trading below 1x MNAV.

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And it was really like, who do you think, how many people are going to be real winners out of this?

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He got a bit offended by that question.

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He's so smart.

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You know.

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I mean, I've been to his house multiple times.

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I've had dinner with him three or four times.

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We're not friends.

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You know how he's very difficult to talk to?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Because his mind is like here, right?

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But I think maybe he's so smart and analytical

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that maybe you guys were like talking past each other.

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Yeah.

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I could give you a layman's version

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as to why there could be 10,000 of them.

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But if you'd like.

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It was basically a thing I was most shocked about

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is that it was that question that set him off on me.

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Yeah.

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And I've had a few people being like,

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he wasn't shouting at you.

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it was more of like a broader audience

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that is like skeptical on treasury companies.

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I don't know.

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I took it like he was shouting at me

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during the interview.

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And I was just like,

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I had far harder questions I wanted to ask him,

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but I was like, well,

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if that's caused a blow up,

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maybe I kind of wish I'd asked harder questions now.

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Yeah.

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But hindsight.

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How did it end?

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Well, so we probably,

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he probably shouted at me for about half an hour.

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And then I just tried to move it on

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and we got into like other stuff.

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Yeah, but how did it end?

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Like at the end?

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At the end of like the heated part of it.

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No, like you wrapped up the interview

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oh you mean like after the interview it was pretty awkward that was awkward like he i got like

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nothing against say there's loads of people being like he shouldn't have talked to like that i don't

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care i've got thick skin like i don't care that he spoke to me like that it's absolutely fine like

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that's kind of what you expect when you go and talk to a billionaire running an incredibly

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successful company like i don't mind being yelled at a bit yeah um and so at the end i was just like

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hey thank you like that got a little bit spicy there um and he was just like yeah kind of and

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then you know he's got a lot to do he was just off um and he's like a tricky person to speak to

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at the best of times like i don't i don't think it was i don't think there was any animosity there

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but i don't know maybe there was yeah i i wasn't like personally offended you would never know

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there's there's always to me it always seems like it's edgy every i mean again i've had dinner with

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him i've had like spoken to all these times but it's like never like a friendly yeah yeah it's

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always like uh his brain's going like a thousand miles an hour totally if you even try to have a

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a piece of friendly conversation like that ain't gonna work yeah no 100 and like he's got shit to

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do yeah like i get it yeah um i thought it was great content though yeah people seem to really

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like it's blown up controversy sells so so it was good but um i i if i can let me just answer

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the question for you. So I think Bitcoiners, they take a Bitcoin view into the treasury companies

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and without realizing that your sound money thesis and anti-fiat and Jeff Booth don't feed

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the system and perpetuate it and all that, that is ideology and that's correct. And as a Bitcoin

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maxi, that's the view I have, but that's not the world that we live in today. So what percentage

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of people would you say have taken a 5% allocation to Bitcoin? What percentage of people? Yeah. 1%?

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Tiny, yeah. Less than 1%. Less than 1%, maybe. And so that would be hardcore. They'd take a 5%.

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But even those people would have a 95% allocation to other things besides Bitcoin.

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So when you start asking, why would I buy a treasuring company and not Bitcoin?

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As a Bitcoiner, that's what we ask because Bitcoin is our hurdle rate.

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But 99.9% of the world doesn't ask that question.

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They're trying to beat CPI inflation or they're trying to beat the S&P 500.

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So they buy a basket of stuff, right?

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So right off the bat, a Bitcoin treasury stock is not competing against Bitcoin.

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And Saylor told me in Prague, we had dinner.

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He's like, I've never targeted Bitcoiners.

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He's like, I've never brought a Bitcoiner in.

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It's not a replacement for Bitcoiners.

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It's not a replacement for Bitcoin and cold storage.

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So the question that is most commonly asked in the Bitcoin space is, why should I buy a treasure company, not Bitcoin?

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And the answer is you shouldn't.

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The answer is you shouldn't.

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But they're not competing for Bitcoiners.

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Even the hardcore 1%ers still have 95% allocated to other stuff.

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So most people are not asking, will it be Bitcoin, number one?

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Number two, I think this is just an a priori truth.

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If you buy a Bitcoin and I buy a Bitcoin and Bitcoin 10Xs, who makes more money?

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Same.

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Same.

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If I borrow 30% LTV against my Bitcoin and buy more Bitcoin, and you don't, and it goes up 10x, who makes more money?

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You.

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Why?

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Because you've leveraged it.

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Leveraged, right?

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So that's just basic math, right?

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So why would a Bitcoin treasury company trade for more than one times?

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Because they're applying operational excellence, management, and leverage, right?

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So when you have like a fund, a closed fund, right?

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And there's, by the way, why would there be more than one treasury company?

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There's 1,000.

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closed funds in the US alone. Why is there a thousand? Why isn't there just one fund?

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There's a thousand. Each one has a different risk return profile. So with a closed-end fund,

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a lot of times we'll trade a one-time, sometimes a discount, sometimes a positive,

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a positive multiple. Why? Because there's a market and people trade it. But when you look

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at what a treasury company is more analog to would be a bank. So a bank take customer deposits,

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They pay a yield on the deposits and they invest the money and they make the arbitrage.

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It's also very comparable to a gold mining company, a silver mining company.

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So I'm asset heavy, right?

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So I have the gold in the ground, but I don't trade at one times my gold value, my book value,

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because I'm an operating company.

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And so I'm going to get a multiple on top of my asset.

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So the banks are going to trade a two to three times book value, price to book.

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An operating company like an oil company or a gold company would trade two to three times that because it's not just the gold in the ground.

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It's also the potential future value of the gold.

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Yep.

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Right. Oil is a little bit different because oil is so volatile, but like gold companies are priced a little bit different.

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And so if you look at a Barrett gold or a Newmont gold, for example, you'll see them like a two or three times book value because the gold will be worth more in the future.

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Plus, they have the operating leverage.

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They can use credit equity.

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They can expand.

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They can do all types of things.

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So when you look at a treasury company, you go, well, they're more like that.

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They have an asset like gold.

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I believe Bitcoin is better than gold.

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So do you.

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I believe it's more explosive.

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So just right off the bat, they should have an increased premium than a gold company because their asset is better than oil or gold, in my opinion.

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Then we have the operating efficiency. Now, some treasury companies have terrible management and they should be discounted. Some are really good and they should get a benefit. So then the operating company itself, the management, et cetera, is going to get a premium or a discount based off of that.

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Okay, so that's why it would trade more than one times. This type of company should never trade one times. It's not a fund, like an ETF, right? They apply no leverage, right? It's just there's arbitrage against it, which is why the price fluctuates.

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But really, it's negative.

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Really, it should trade at a discount to NAV because they're charging fees every month.

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But isn't the difference here though, let's forget like preferreds because they changed the game a

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little bit. But before we had preferreds, like the way that people were going out and buying Bitcoin

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was just diluting the shareholders. So like there's always, there's that gravity to one,

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because like once it goes above one, there's more incentive for them to then dilute and buy more

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Bitcoin. Yeah. So I'd say one, you can't ignore the prefs because the prefs is how we get the

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leverage. Yeah. No, but like there's out of the 200 plus treasury companies, there's probably only,

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is there only two doing preferreds so far? Three, I think. I think Strive, the Metaplanet, and

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MSTR, right? But that's the goal. So, well, okay. So the goal, if we just bring it back down to

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first principles, the goal is to have an asset and then use intelligent leverage against the asset,

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right? Because as we've already previously discovered, if you apply leverage, you're

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going to outperform Bitcoin. So an operating company that has management, has access to credit

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and equity markets, and what can they do creatively to apply leverage in a safe, intelligent way?

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Now, PREFs are one way to do that.

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Convertible debt's another way.

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Selling stock is another way.

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Raising money is another way.

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So while there's only three companies that have gotten what I call stage two, stage one

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is start buying the Bitcoin.

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Stage two is get to that PREF leverage.

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While there's only three that have gotten there so far, that's the path that everyone's

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hoping to be on.

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But there's other ways that they can lever up the Bitcoin besides PREFs.

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But so that's one of the questions that I think annoyed Saylor as well, is that I was

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basically trying to ask if preferred to change the game and what happens to the other companies.

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So let me explain that for you. So what happens is, again, from a Bitcoin or lens, it doesn't

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really make sense. So we have to sort of get rid of that and think about it from a traditional

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financial market lens. What Bitcoin treasury companies are doing is they're soaking up the

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demand for yield. Think about that for a second. The demand for yield, that's the fixed income

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market. The fixed income market dwarfs the equity market, dwarfs the commodity market.

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The fixed income market is the biggest market in the world. Why? Because there's always a demand

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for yield. Some people have assets that they want yield on, and some people need to borrow.

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Google will drop a bond because they need to build a new data center. So there's always a borrower,

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and there's always somebody that wants the yield. That's never going to change. Bitcoin is not going

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to change that. That doesn't change the way humans work. We have consumers and creators. Creators

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create more than they consume. They have savings and they're going to loan that savings out for

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yield. That's the way, whether it's Bitcoin, gold, or fiat, that's how it works. So the fixed income

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market is the largest market in the world. Right now, the bond market has built the fixed income

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market on a dollar standard. What can happen now is we can build the fixed income market on a

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Bitcoin standard. So there's an insatiable, unquenchable desire for yield. And so we need

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to build the yield products. Now, to your point about microstrategy, why would there be more than

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one? Microstrategy has got to cover. They got four prefs out there. That's all we need.

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Then why do we have 10,000 bonds in the United States? Every bond is different. Every bond is

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a different risk and reward profile. Every bond is a different company. Every bond is a different

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term. Every bond has a different yield. There's 10,000, not one. Even just US treasuries alone,

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there's whatever, 10 or 15 of them, right? From months to 30 years, right? So there's 10,000 bonds.

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Why is there not just one bond? So when it comes to the preferreds on Bitcoin,

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like what strategy you've done, they've come out, let's say they're offering, is it 11% on stretch

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right now? And then they think they have their model where they think Bitcoin is going to go up

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21% a year. So they're basically paying out 11% and they're hoping to get 21% return on the Bitcoin.

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So they catch capture that difference, right? Over a two decade period. Yeah. So, but that

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doesn't give that much space for other companies to come out and offer preferreds. Like they can

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maybe offer it 12, 13, 14%. But think about what you're saying for a second. Are you going to take

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that risk when you could just buy strategy, which is, has the most Bitcoin by an order of magnitude

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and is also like fairly low leverage. Think about what you're saying. Hang on, but think,

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I understand. Think about what you're saying for a second though. So what you're saying is

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stretch is such a good preferred. Why would anybody else like they're, they're so secure.

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They're so stable. They have such a good track record. Why would you buy anybody else's preferred

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is what you're asking, right? You know, a preferred is an equity. Most of the world can

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only buy commodities or I'm sorry, can buy bonds. They can't buy equities. A preferred is a stock.

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at equity. But most of these fixed income funds can only buy bonds. MicroStrategy doesn't have

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bonds, nor is he going to create bonds. But we were talking about people coming out and competing

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in the preferred market. Right. Well, I think what we're talking about is treasury companies

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competing for the yield market, not necessarily the preferred market. Okay. So you think basically

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they're just going to come out with new products? There's 10,000 products that can come out.

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Now, why would I buy a bond from Apple instead of a bond from Google?

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Why would I buy a bond from LA County versus LA County?

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Why would I buy a bond from LA County versus LA Department of Water?

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Different risk profile.

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But why didn't he just say this to me?

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Because he's here.

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So that's why I want to give you a layman's view of this.

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So think about insurance, Danny.

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How many types of insurance are there?

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Two knows.

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Just types.

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Health home whole life term life travel disability There hundreds of types Why isn there just one type of insurance Why does there have to be hundreds

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Okay, of the hundreds of types of insurance,

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how many insurance companies?

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Thousands, tens of thousands.

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Tens of thousands.

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Why isn't there just one insurance company?

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Why do I need more than one insurance company?

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That doesn't make any sense.

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Why not just one insurance?

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AIM is the biggest insurance company.

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They've been around for 100 years.

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They have the best policies.

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Why is there room for any other insurance provider in the marketplace?

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So why do you think that basically all the treasury companies are now trading at a discount?

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Yeah, so a couple things.

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So obviously, number one, the volatility of the nature of the company, which is a multiple of the volatility of Bitcoin.

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So I had dinner with Michael Saylor when I was in Prague last year.

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And he gave us this story.

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And he said, imagine that God came to me in the middle of the night.

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and God told me that the market was gonna crash tomorrow.

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So I woke up in the morning

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and I went and hedged MicroStrategy.

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And sure enough, the markets crashed,

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but MicroStrategy didn't.

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That'd be great, right?

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The shareholders would be stoked, right?

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No, because they expect MSTR

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to trade two times volatile to Bitcoin.

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So if Bitcoin goes up 5X, MSTR should go up 10X.

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But if Bitcoin goes down, we should also go down 2X.

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How far did Bitcoin drop?

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30, 35%. What's microstrategy down? 60%. Exactly two times. Exactly what the market is expecting

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it to do, a two times volatility. Now, some of these are 80, 90% down, whatever. So we could

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look at Nakamoto, for example. So if you look at Nakamoto, the company I'm working with, Satsuma

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in London, we're also sort of the same victim. But you have to peel back and look at the nuance of

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that, right? So again, if we just look at like traditional market finance, the way, let's just

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use Uber as an example, first of all, right? So Uber started as raising money from friends and

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family and then angel rounds and then VC rounds. And eventually they do a pre-IPO, right? Which is

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the last investors come in privately before it goes public. So now after six, seven, eight years,

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it finally goes public. What happens? All the insiders sell because they bought it and they

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were hoping for liquidity and the pre-IPO investors got in because they wanted to sell as soon as it

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public. And it's not necessarily like mean or malicious, but they dump on retail. Not because

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they're mean or malicious trying to rug pull retail. It's just like they've been waiting for

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six, seven years for liquidity. They finally got it, right? So what happens is naturally,

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as soon as we hit the public market, all those insiders dump. And then unfortunately,

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retail bought it and whatever. Okay. Well, a lot of these treasury companies did something similar

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where they took an already existing trading company, like a public company. And then they

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did an RTO, like a reverse takeover, and then they raised a pipe to raise the money.

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Okay.

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So what happens is, and I can tell you firsthand, because through my fund, Bitcoin Opportunity

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Fund, we've invested in dozens of these, and I've helped launch a couple now.

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So what happens is, with Satsuma, for example, we announced, because it's already a publicly

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trading company that you could already buy the stock, we're required by law to make a

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press release that we're going to raise money.

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So a press release went out in July and said, we're going to raise a hundred.

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Our goal is to raise a hundred million dollars into this company at the price of one pence.

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And that was the, that was the public price at that day.

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So today it's one pence.

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We're going to raise a hundred million at one pence.

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And we put the press release out.

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As soon as we put the press release out, the speculator started driving the price.

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And what we did as a company is we were like, no PR.

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It was like, it was a policy.

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David Bailey, he didn't really follow that.

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And so there's nuances to all this, but this generally applies to asset like Strives Company or Mauler's Company or Nakamoto or Satsuma.

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David Bailey did talk it up quite a bit.

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So that was a problem.

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What we tried to do is not talk it up at all.

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But we had to put the press release out.

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So we tried to let it go quiet.

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But they drove the price up 10x.

364
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They drove from one pence to 10x, right?

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And then we're still raising money.

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So that went on for a couple months.

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Then the haters come out.

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How dare you raise money for the insiders at one when the public price is 10?

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It's like, yeah, that's just the market.

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There's not a lot you can do about it.

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So now, so then, uh, then, then we got delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed.

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And then, uh, it finally just got approved right before New Year's.

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And now the price is down 90%, but 90% from what the company wasn't even an operating company.

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We just got approved two weeks ago.

375
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So all that price action in the stock isn't really reflective of what we're doing.

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And so same with Nakamoto, right?

377
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So Nakamoto did this.

378
00:22:53,690 --> 00:22:57,890
Now, again, David Bailey was very loud about what he was doing and how much money he was raising.

379
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And so that's a whole nother topic that's above my pay grade.

380
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And when Elon Musk tweeted about Tesla stock, he got in trouble.

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And so maybe there's some wrongdoing there.

382
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I'm not alleging there is.

383
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But my point is, is it drove much more attention.

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Bitcoin Magazine, Bitcoin Inc, obviously, right?

385
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And so the speculators really drove that price up big time.

386
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They got delayed, delayed, delayed.

387
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And then same thing, it dropped 90%.

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And so it's just a function of what happens when you take a private raise and you go public.

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It's amplified in that type of a market because you already have a publicly traded company.

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And so then the speculators start driving the price up.

391
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And so it's a function of how it works.

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00:23:37,310 --> 00:23:41,190
But I don't think it's reflective of the operating company because they haven't really been up and operating yet.

393
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:41,510
Yeah.

394
00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:47,370
Do you think there's a limit to how much Bitcoin these treasury companies should own, like the public companies?

395
00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:50,130
Because I think Sale is at just over 3% now.

396
00:23:50,130 --> 00:23:53,110
I think we can agree if he owned 100% of Bitcoin, that's a problem.

397
00:23:53,610 --> 00:23:55,010
Bitcoin is not interesting at that point.

398
00:23:55,150 --> 00:23:56,430
Where do you draw the line?

399
00:23:57,150 --> 00:24:02,590
So we understand as Bitcoiners that Bitcoin is a system of rules, not rulers.

400
00:24:02,970 --> 00:24:08,610
So unlike crypto, Ethereum, et cetera, those run on proof of stake, which means that the

401
00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:12,450
more tokens I have, the more tokens I stake, the more votes I get on the protocol and the

402
00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:13,190
consensus, right?

403
00:24:13,570 --> 00:24:18,250
So then people who have more tokens get to basically run the network and change the rules

404
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:22,130
as they see fit, sort of like our fiat system we have today. But Bitcoin doesn't do that, right?

405
00:24:22,150 --> 00:24:27,130
So I could own more Bitcoin, but I get no more votes in the system. So as far as like how much

406
00:24:27,130 --> 00:24:33,030
Bitcoin, is it good or proper? I mean, that's for the free market to decide. What is safe?

407
00:24:33,450 --> 00:24:38,310
I mean, we've seen where like in 2008, the banks were too big to fail. So we've seen, you know,

408
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:43,950
potentially where maybe one institution gets so big that if something happens, it could destabilize

409
00:24:43,950 --> 00:24:48,490
the market temporarily. So we could argue like a safety thing. I don't think it's a control issue.

410
00:24:48,490 --> 00:24:52,530
I don't see a problem on the control issue. We could argue like a safety thing. But like,

411
00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:57,910
if MicroStrategy got in trouble and dumped 650,000 Bitcoin into the market today,

412
00:24:58,090 --> 00:25:00,810
the market would barely shrug. Do you think?

413
00:25:00,950 --> 00:25:06,910
We saw 900,000 Bitcoin get dumped twice this year. Well, in 2025, right? Wasn't that like

414
00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:11,990
nine, it was $9 billion. So there was the big like whale sold that sold through Galaxy. I think

415
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:16,550
that was 80,000 coins. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Sorry. 80,000. Yeah. Not, not 600. That's a big, big

416
00:25:16,550 --> 00:25:20,410
difference. Cause that's like a, what 40 billion, I think is what he has 40, 50 billion. Yeah. I

417
00:25:20,410 --> 00:25:23,630
think it's about 50 billion, 50 billion. So it's a big difference from 9 billion. You're right.

418
00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:29,550
But obviously anybody would know, like nobody would dump 50 billion in a day. Yeah. Because

419
00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:34,050
if I want to sell 50 billion, I don't want to have the slippage. So I'm going to, of course,

420
00:25:34,110 --> 00:25:39,090
roll that out. So even if something were to have hypothetically, which I don't see this,

421
00:25:39,090 --> 00:25:40,890
So I'm certainly not saying this is the case.

422
00:25:41,850 --> 00:25:44,350
Michael Saylor has built like an impenetrable fortress.

423
00:25:45,230 --> 00:25:47,570
So there really is no forced liquidation there.

424
00:25:47,650 --> 00:25:51,510
But even if, you know, went through bankruptcy, changed hands, they wanted to liquidate the

425
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:54,590
stock, unwind the company, they're not going to dump $50 billion in a day.

426
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So I just don't see a lot of risk there.

427
00:25:57,950 --> 00:26:02,370
But what I would say, again, sort of drawing parallels to other markets, when you look

428
00:26:02,370 --> 00:26:05,930
at the gold market, how concentrated is the gold market?

429
00:26:06,270 --> 00:26:08,190
How concentrated is the equity market?

430
00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:11,550
You know, three companies own like 85% of all the stock.

431
00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:15,190
Vanguard, State Street, and BlackRock own like 85%.

432
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:20,870
So when you talk about 3% position by one company, it seems like inconsequential.

433
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:23,530
And again, sailors only do in equities.

434
00:26:24,110 --> 00:26:25,450
There's a whole market of bonds.

435
00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:29,510
The other thing is that, again, trying to understand the financial market, most of the

436
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:35,410
financial market and things we can talk about that was in my outline is matching liquidity,

437
00:26:35,850 --> 00:26:37,950
risk, and duration.

438
00:26:38,190 --> 00:26:43,410
So most of the liabilities, so assets and liabilities are tried to be matched over duration.

439
00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:46,710
So like when the banks collapsed in 2023, they had a mismatch in durations.

440
00:26:46,850 --> 00:26:50,050
They had 30-year debt, but they had cash that was due now, right?

441
00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:55,010
So most of the debt is typically over 5, 10, like your auto loan, your house loan, right?

442
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:55,970
It's termed.

443
00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:57,670
Say that's doing perpetual.

444
00:26:59,070 --> 00:27:00,490
Mark doesn't really know what to do with perpetual.

445
00:27:01,030 --> 00:27:07,970
So when I sat down with him, he's like, hey, you could have $100 billion business just with 30-year bonds alone.

446
00:27:08,190 --> 00:27:14,270
you should do that i'm not you could have a hundred billion dollar business with 10-year bonds

447
00:27:14,270 --> 00:27:19,590
i'm not going to do it you should do it you could have a hundred billion dollar business with just

448
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:25,350
five-year bonds i'm not going to do it you so it's like there's like a million flavors of ice

449
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:29,570
cream that could be done and he's just going to do stretch right and so and then you have all the

450
00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:33,630
different districts so like for example he just was on your show he said like he's not going to

451
00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:37,270
go to japan he's not going to go to the uk so then you have all the different currencies all

452
00:27:37,270 --> 00:27:40,550
the different markets. Like, dude, all of a sudden you could see how there could be 10,000 of these.

453
00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:45,550
But really, I think if we just take the lens and we'll put a pin on this, the pin, the plug is that

454
00:27:45,550 --> 00:27:52,730
it's soaking up the demand for yield, which is the single largest market in the world.

455
00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:56,010
You know, we're talking, I mean, 300 trillion.

456
00:27:56,790 --> 00:27:57,150
Yeah.

457
00:27:58,850 --> 00:28:04,190
145 trillion of that is tradable securitized. So like actual trading stocks, a lot of it is not.

458
00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:05,930
So $145 trillion alone.

459
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:11,230
In the US alone, $28 trillion of just cash and cash equivalents.

460
00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:17,150
So it's like, bro, you can have 10,000 companies all make a trillion dollars each.

461
00:28:17,970 --> 00:28:26,010
One of the things he said after it calmed down a little bit was that he had no interest in strategy becoming a bank, which is something I'd always assumed was sort of the end goal for him, which is interesting.

462
00:28:26,150 --> 00:28:28,270
He's laser focused on these products that he's doing right now.

463
00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:28,950
Laser focused, 100%.

464
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:38,790
But you think there's a lot in the sort of treasury company playbook that just normal Bitcoiners can take from and actually use their Bitcoin in a far better way.

465
00:28:39,370 --> 00:28:44,970
Well, what I think is that if we want to talk, and I talked about this with you before, like the game of money.

466
00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:53,790
And if we think about how to build wealth and what wealth tools do we have available to us, we understand that Bitcoin is the cheat code for us to do that.

467
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:57,370
And Bitcoin allows us to use all these tools that the 1% typically had.

468
00:28:57,370 --> 00:29:03,190
So Bitcoin allows us, but we have to build a system around a system for building wealth around Bitcoin.

469
00:29:03,470 --> 00:29:06,730
And so Bitcoin treasuries can be one piece of that system that we can build.

470
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:12,010
See, I think this is for me, like when I go into Bitcoin, I'd never done any like investing before.

471
00:29:12,090 --> 00:29:15,310
I was pretty young still. Like Bitcoin was the first thing I found, like changed my life.

472
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:17,550
Like the only thing I've ever been focused on since that day.

473
00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:23,930
And I don't think I think about Bitcoin necessarily in the right way when it comes to like building wealth and like setting myself up for the future.

474
00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:26,610
Because like the thing that I just never want to do is sell Bitcoin.

475
00:29:26,610 --> 00:29:29,010
So I really want to get a family home.

476
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:30,390
We've just been renting.

477
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:32,910
And it's like, do I want to sell a Bitcoin to do it?

478
00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:35,350
But you think I need to adjust the framework that I'm thinking in.

479
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:35,950
100%.

480
00:29:35,950 --> 00:29:38,890
And one, I never want you to sell Bitcoin.

481
00:29:39,330 --> 00:29:41,490
I don't want your great grandkids to sell your Bitcoin.

482
00:29:42,130 --> 00:29:44,910
So we want to build a wealth engine around Bitcoin

483
00:29:44,910 --> 00:29:48,010
that allows you to grow your wealth faster,

484
00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:50,250
utilize all that capital,

485
00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:52,430
and even feed your great, great, great grandkids

486
00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:53,650
without ever selling the Bitcoins.

487
00:29:53,710 --> 00:29:55,210
We have to build an engine around that.

488
00:29:55,210 --> 00:29:59,090
And so let's just take traditional finance.

489
00:29:59,270 --> 00:30:02,870
So you have maybe the champion of that would be like a Dave Ramsey.

490
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:08,050
And Dave Ramsey would say, save percent of your paycheck and put into mutual funds and never use debt.

491
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:09,010
He's the bold guy there.

492
00:30:09,050 --> 00:30:11,630
See, like people call him up and say, I mean, yeah, okay.

493
00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:12,050
Right.

494
00:30:12,850 --> 00:30:15,790
And so, you know, he makes hundreds of millions a year.

495
00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:19,210
He's not just some old, you know, country folk guy.

496
00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:19,890
He's really smart.

497
00:30:19,890 --> 00:30:22,050
But his advice to everyone is don't use debt.

498
00:30:23,450 --> 00:30:24,190
Work hard.

499
00:30:24,530 --> 00:30:24,970
Save.

500
00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:29,270
put it into mutual funds, let it sit there for 40 years and compound. And then what happens is

501
00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:34,030
traditional finance says, at some point in 40 years from now, you can sell 4% of your assets

502
00:30:34,030 --> 00:30:38,590
per year. And if you time it just right, hopefully you'll die before you run out of money.

503
00:30:39,150 --> 00:30:43,050
And you'll die with zero. There's a whole book, a whole movement around die with zero,

504
00:30:43,210 --> 00:30:48,610
which as a Bitcoiner seems like the worst idea. That's a fiat idea. If we think about our life as

505
00:30:48,610 --> 00:30:54,070
like a blockchain, like my life, I should have a proof of work that I was here. What is the stamp

506
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:58,730
I'm leaving on the world. What is the proof of my life? And then my kids should start on the next

507
00:30:58,730 --> 00:31:03,270
block. Totally. And then they should add to that block. And why should my kids start from zero?

508
00:31:03,810 --> 00:31:10,310
So I think the Dave Ramsey traditional financial advice is a fiat mindset. Save for 40 years,

509
00:31:10,610 --> 00:31:14,410
spend it down to zero. Hopefully I die before I have zero and my kids start from zero. Whereas

510
00:31:14,410 --> 00:31:18,170
we're Bitcoiners, we want to push value into the future. So right off the bat, that system is

511
00:31:18,170 --> 00:31:22,890
broken. But again, yes, I never want you to sell your Bitcoin. I want you to set up a system where

512
00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:27,330
your great grandkids don't sell your Bitcoin and they don't need to. But what it really comes down

513
00:31:27,330 --> 00:31:32,970
to, and we can come back to this, but passing down the Bitcoin is the asset, but that's not

514
00:31:32,970 --> 00:31:38,250
the inheritance. What we want to pass down is a system that allows my great grandkids to continue

515
00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:42,630
to grow the wealth and use the wealth without selling the Bitcoin. If you already self-custody

516
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517
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518
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519
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recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an intuitive, easy-to-use wallet with no

520
00:32:02,350 --> 00:32:08,450
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521
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522
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525
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526
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527
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531
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534
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purchased. Okay, so let's start right from the start. Like, how should people be approaching this?

535
00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:31,110
Like, what are the first steps to doing this? So if we reframe it, we want to understand a couple

536
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:34,790
things. And I'm going to use Michael Saylor as an example for this. But we want to understand that

537
00:33:34,790 --> 00:33:40,570
what traditional people do is they work for money. And what most people try and do is make more money.

538
00:33:41,230 --> 00:33:45,370
So they're going to go back to school. They're going to get new skills. They're going to work

539
00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:49,510
harder, longer. They're going to get a side hustle, start a new, whatever, right? They're

540
00:33:49,510 --> 00:33:53,430
going to try to make more money. Then they're going to pay taxes. They're going to live on

541
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:56,690
whatever's left. And then hopefully they have a little bit left to save and they'll follow Dave

542
00:33:56,690 --> 00:34:03,770
Ramsey's advice. But what the wealthy do is they use income to buy assets. And then those assets

543
00:34:03,770 --> 00:34:09,270
compound and the assets pay for their life and they never run out. Okay. Now let me give you an

544
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:15,090
example. We'll talk about Michael Saylor. So I'm sure like you and I, we both watched hundreds of

545
00:34:15,090 --> 00:34:18,010
his interviews. There was one he did with Jordan Peterson. Did you watch that one?

546
00:34:18,130 --> 00:34:18,430
I did. Yeah.

547
00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:24,290
Right. So he talked about how he spent, he spent, he did 10 trips around the world and he couldn't

548
00:34:24,290 --> 00:34:28,030
get MicroStrategy to grow. Remember he's like, I tried everything. I hired this person. I tried

549
00:34:28,030 --> 00:34:31,290
that. I merged with this company. I bought this company. I was competing against Microsoft. I

550
00:34:31,290 --> 00:34:38,370
couldn't win. I couldn't increase revenue. So just like you and I, but at some point we can only work

551
00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:43,690
so hard. He couldn't increase the revenue of micro strategy. He tried everything. So he had assets.

552
00:34:43,790 --> 00:34:47,250
He had 500 million of assets, but it was melting. And he's like, what do I do? I could try to buy

553
00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:51,850
another company. I could try to hire more people, but I've proven now for 10 years, I can't grow the

554
00:34:51,850 --> 00:34:56,790
revenue. Right? So like most of us as a mom and pop, a homeowner, we have a little bit of assets.

555
00:34:56,790 --> 00:35:01,070
We have equity in our home. We have some Bitcoin, but we can't work harder. I've got a side hustle.

556
00:35:01,070 --> 00:35:05,430
I can't increase revenue that much. Okay. So that's Michael Saylor. So what he decided to do

557
00:35:05,430 --> 00:35:12,670
was change the business from micro strategy to strategy, drop the micro. And instead of trying

558
00:35:12,670 --> 00:35:17,770
to grow revenue and sell more software, I'm going to just build the asset base that I have.

559
00:35:18,110 --> 00:35:24,250
I'm going to run my treasury, right? Within five years, he took micro strategy from 3 billion

560
00:35:24,250 --> 00:35:30,670
to 50 billion. So he spent a decade and couldn't grow it. And within five years of the new strategy,

561
00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:36,110
he went from three to 50. So you and I, what can we learn from that? Well, we understand that

562
00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:41,050
the rich don't work for revenue, the work, the rich work for assets and the assets built. So

563
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:45,790
what we want to do is instead of trying to make more money, how can we leverage the assets that

564
00:35:45,790 --> 00:35:50,150
we have today to build wealth faster? That's what he did. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes

565
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:54,110
total sense. Now, then we would ask, well, how did he do it? Now, look, he didn't invent this.

566
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:59,190
He sort of invented this category for businesses. The Bitcoin treasury company is that, but this is

567
00:35:59,190 --> 00:36:04,210
what the wealthy, this is what Donald Trump, before he set out to become the president, he was known

568
00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:08,330
as the king of debt. He built the Manhattan skyline. This is how Robert Kiyosaki, this is

569
00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:15,850
how these guys become billionaires. So what Saylor did is he used credit, debt, and equity.

570
00:36:16,450 --> 00:36:23,650
So I had assets and I used debt and credit or credit and equity. And you and I have credit and

571
00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:38,620
equity So we have assets you have Bitcoin and you have credit and equity Yep Right So how do we do the same thing So what we wanna do and this is the end goal depends on how much income you have today how much assets you have if you have 50 a year

572
00:36:38,620 --> 00:36:44,700
or 5 million a year of income. But the goal is again, to go from earning income, paying taxes,

573
00:36:45,540 --> 00:36:50,540
let's just use in the United States, a 40% tax margin rate, you know, depends on what country

574
00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:55,580
you're in. But if I make a hundred grand a year, 40,000 goes to taxes, I have 60,000 to live on.

575
00:36:55,580 --> 00:37:02,700
Yep. Good luck. Maybe I have 5,000 left. I buy some Bitcoin. Okay. But what we want to do is I

576
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:08,580
want all hundred thousand to pay no tax and go all into Bitcoin. So how do you do that? Yeah. So I'm

577
00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:14,180
going to show you that. And then I want the Bitcoin to pay for all my living expenses without selling

578
00:37:14,180 --> 00:37:19,120
it. So that's the goal. That's where we're going to walk everybody to. But how do we do that? So

579
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,420
it starts with, and again, depends on your income level, what assets you have, but it starts with,

580
00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:27,520
let's say you're a hundred thousand dollar a year person. What I'm going to do is I'm going to start

581
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,280
with credit. What did the sailor do? Start with credit. He did converts. So I'm going to go to

582
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,800
the credit market. Most people should have credit. If you don't go get it, clean up your credit,

583
00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:41,500
whatever you got to do. Like that's, that's one-on-one we're in a debt-based system. And I,

584
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,760
I recognize that a lot of Bitcoiners are going to hate this message because Jeff Booth says

585
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:52,400
we're perpetuating the system and that's fine. But like, I also want to build wealth for my family.

586
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,620
So we're in a debt-based system.

587
00:37:55,620 --> 00:37:56,980
You're really exploiting the system.

588
00:37:57,180 --> 00:37:58,200
We're in a debt-based system.

589
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,320
And I'm going to do a speculative attack against the system

590
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,200
like everybody else should do a speculative attack against the system.

591
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,740
And I cannot.

592
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,920
I can be a Dave Ramsey and not do that.

593
00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:09,580
But half of baby boomers today have zero savings, half of them.

594
00:38:09,780 --> 00:38:10,220
That's wild.

595
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:13,780
And the half that do have savings, the median is $240,000.

596
00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:16,460
What is $240,000 going to do?

597
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:19,460
You're going to live for 10 years, 20 years, you're going to get $12,000 a year?

598
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:20,860
Like, how is that going to work?

599
00:38:20,860 --> 00:38:24,120
So anyway, this is not for the different.

600
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,340
Now, I'm going to tell you right now, everyone that just heard that has said, Mark, what you're proposing is very dangerous.

601
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:30,640
It's very risky.

602
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,640
And we don't like it.

603
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,140
And I'm going to tell you how to de-risk it.

604
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:34,780
So we'll get there.

605
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,600
And I guess one of the points in there is like, what kind of credit are you going out and getting?

606
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,860
So first of all, what credit do you have available to you?

607
00:38:43,220 --> 00:38:46,780
So I have a friend, Jack.

608
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,880
He helps people get credit lines, like credit cards.

609
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,160
And typically he gets the average person, a hundred to $200,000 of credit cards with like a 0% APR for 12 months.

610
00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:57,300
So you could do that.

611
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,420
Maybe you can get a small business loan.

612
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:00,840
Maybe you can get a home equity line.

613
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:03,240
Maybe you can get a personal credit line from the bank.

614
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,680
Maybe you have like, maybe you have Bitcoin you can borrow.

615
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,100
Like, so there's a bunch of ways that you can get credit.

616
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,680
And we can explore that if you want.

617
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,020
But I think most people in a debt-based system know they can get credit.

618
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,260
Go to your bank, call your credit card company.

619
00:39:17,260 --> 00:39:20,160
Like when you're on the airplane, you know, they offer you credit cards on the airplane.

620
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:21,580
Like you can figure it out.

621
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,580
But what kind of percentage should you be trying to take credit out at?

622
00:39:24,660 --> 00:39:25,440
And what's too risky?

623
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:25,780
Yeah.

624
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:31,380
So I want to get to the risk management because that's a key piece, not getting blown up.

625
00:39:31,460 --> 00:39:32,660
But maybe we can come back to that in a second.

626
00:39:33,020 --> 00:39:37,140
So the first step that we would want to do is I can't, I don't want to work harder.

627
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,920
I don't want to try to travel around the world like Saylor did 10 times.

628
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:40,900
I want to build my treasury.

629
00:39:41,060 --> 00:39:44,160
So the first step I would do is I would, I'm making a hundred grand a year.

630
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:45,720
I'm already working 50 hours a week.

631
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:46,400
I'm maxed out.

632
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:46,600
Right.

633
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:52,660
So I'm going to use some credit and I'm going to buy an asset that gives me tax depreciation.

634
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:59,080
So the way this works is if I have $1 of income that's taxable, I owe tax on that money.

635
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,280
There's no getting out of it.

636
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:01,160
There's no loopholes for that.

637
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:08,460
But I can buy in almost any country in the world, I can buy certain things that the government will give me credits or depreciation for.

638
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,680
So if I get $1 of income, I have $1 of depreciation and I cancel each other out.

639
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:16,140
So in the United States, I can buy real estate.

640
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,020
Even if I'm a full-time employee,

641
00:40:18,020 --> 00:40:19,380
I could buy like a short-term rental,

642
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:20,240
which has an exclusion.

643
00:40:20,380 --> 00:40:21,620
Trump's one big, beautiful bill

644
00:40:21,620 --> 00:40:23,380
that went into effect here January 1st

645
00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:25,460
allows us to take bonus depreciation

646
00:40:25,460 --> 00:40:26,780
or all the depreciation in year one.

647
00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:28,800
But even in China-

648
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:29,380
Buy Bitcoin miners.

649
00:40:29,780 --> 00:40:31,160
You can buy Bitcoin miners, right?

650
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:33,500
So I built a product called Tax Shield,

651
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,340
partnership with Arch Lending and Blockware.

652
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:37,220
It's called Tax Shield.

653
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,860
And we have a turnkey product just for this.

654
00:40:38,860 --> 00:40:44,440
But even in China, you can get tax credits for investing in tech, R&D, things like that.

655
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:45,820
Even in China, you can get them in any country.

656
00:40:45,940 --> 00:40:46,040
Okay.

657
00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:50,100
So I'm going to borrow some money to get depreciation.

658
00:40:50,420 --> 00:40:53,780
And right off the bat, I'm going to get some of my tax money back.

659
00:40:53,940 --> 00:40:56,740
So let's say that I only get $20,000 in tax depreciation.

660
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,140
So instead of giving $60,000 to the government, I only get $40,000.

661
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:03,720
Now I have an extra $20,000 to go into Bitcoin that I didn't have.

662
00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:04,340
I didn't work harder.

663
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:05,440
I didn't work longer.

664
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:06,360
No extra hours.

665
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:08,140
And I have $20,000 a year going in there.

666
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:08,720
Okay.

667
00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:11,780
Now, let's say again, I'm barely scraping by.

668
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:12,880
I'm only 100 grand a year.

669
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:15,400
After five years, that's 500 grand,

670
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,400
not even accounting for any Bitcoin appreciation.

671
00:41:18,740 --> 00:41:20,560
Okay, now, obviously, if you're making more money,

672
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,280
you have some assets, you can get there faster.

673
00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:25,320
Now, what I wanna do is I wanna continue doing that

674
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,360
until my asset base is built up

675
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:28,860
and I can borrow against my assets.

676
00:41:28,860 --> 00:41:29,860
I can borrow against my Bitcoin.

677
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,040
I can borrow against it from Strike.

678
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:33,440
I can borrow with Arch Lending, whatever.

679
00:41:34,180 --> 00:41:35,540
I can get more credit cards.

680
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:36,660
I can borrow against my home, whatever.

681
00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:38,620
And I'm gonna keep getting more depreciation

682
00:41:38,620 --> 00:41:40,500
and keep building my asset base.

683
00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:42,460
And then I'm going to borrow against my asset base

684
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:45,740
to start offsetting my income or my spending,

685
00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:46,720
my lifestyle spending.

686
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,820
So, but there is inherently risk in doing this.

687
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:52,160
Yeah, and I'm going to tell you how to mitigate that.

688
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,500
But let's start with you saying borrow against your Bitcoin.

689
00:41:54,820 --> 00:41:56,260
Like what percentage of your Bitcoin stack

690
00:41:56,260 --> 00:41:57,860
do you think you should actually be borrowing against?

691
00:41:58,240 --> 00:41:58,940
So, okay.

692
00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:02,100
So I'm going to answer that question next,

693
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:02,820
but let me just finish this.

694
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:05,200
So then what I want to do is I'm going to continue

695
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,320
borrowing against my credit lines,

696
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,380
whatever credit lines I have available to me or tapping into my equity, just like sailor use

697
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:15,980
equity. I'm going to continue using that until I build up my asset base. I'm going to keep borrowing

698
00:42:15,980 --> 00:42:21,460
against that until my income is 100% offset. And then until I can continue to bargains to offset

699
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:26,920
my lifestyle income, then I get to the point where 100% of my earned income goes into the assets and

700
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,220
the assets are now paying for my life. Now, when I'm borrowing against my assets to pay for my life,

701
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,660
I'm not paying tax on that money because it's debt. And so now the fly, imagine if you could

702
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:41,060
put a hundred percent of your earned income into Bitcoin a hundred percent and pay zero tax. Yeah.

703
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:46,180
How much faster could you grow your wealth? A lot. A lot now, but it's inherently dangerous. Yeah.

704
00:42:46,340 --> 00:42:53,340
Okay. So let's talk about that danger. So the danger is liquidation. You're a surfer, by the

705
00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:57,940
way, man, I didn't get as, we were going to surf Slater's pool in Abu Dhabi. It was so much fun.

706
00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:00,940
I paid for a spot. I didn't even get a go. I'm so disappointed. But thank you for that.

707
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,820
Cause we all got extra ways because you weren't there. Yeah. Okay. It's like when I die with my

708
00:43:04,820 --> 00:43:08,520
bitcoin i donated to that exactly i donated to everybody so i'm glad you got it okay but let's

709
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:15,420
talk in surfing so danny we're both surfers so um if you're from the inland you've never seen the

710
00:43:15,420 --> 00:43:21,620
ocean before but you want to surf um could i take you to pipeline in hawaii and throw you in the

711
00:43:21,620 --> 00:43:25,760
water of course not why because you might die but there's 100 people out there surfing every day

712
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,980
that don't die so what you would say is the risk isn't in the water necessarily it's in the person

713
00:43:31,980 --> 00:43:37,000
that goes in the water. So what you could say is that it's dangerous to go in the water if you

714
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:42,980
don't know how to swim, but you could learn how to swim. You couldn't put a life jacket on. You

715
00:43:42,980 --> 00:43:47,500
could take a float with you. You could make sure there's a jet ski. You could make sure there's a

716
00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:52,440
life. So what we can do is we can de-risk it. So we don't pretend there's no risk. What we do is

717
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,720
we can de-risk it. So just like we wouldn't take a beginner to pipeline, you and I would, well,

718
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,500
I have served pipeline, but I probably wouldn't today, but we could work our way up there,

719
00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:02,740
But we'd have to increase our skills.

720
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:03,020
Yeah.

721
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:03,280
Okay.

722
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:04,040
So how do we do that?

723
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,300
So what we want to think about is the real risk is the, not the volatility, it's the

724
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:09,540
liquidation that could happen.

725
00:44:10,060 --> 00:44:10,300
Right.

726
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:11,120
Okay.

727
00:44:11,220 --> 00:44:15,200
We want to set a list of rules, treasury doctrine.

728
00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:17,100
So I want to build a treasury operating system.

729
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:18,380
So my treasury doctrine.

730
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,680
So for example, these are rules.

731
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,080
I will never borrow more than X percent LTV.

732
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,000
I will never borrow.

733
00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:29,160
I will never pay cash for a depreciating asset.

734
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,480
I will never borrow at a higher rate and pay a less rate, a negative carry.

735
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:34,780
So we'd set a set of rules.

736
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,900
So for example, with Bitcoin, Bitcoin is volatile.

737
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,640
So if I borrowed at the top of the market, so based off of four-year cycles or looking

738
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,000
at on-chain data, if I borrowed like 80% at the peak, there's a chance it could drop 50%.

739
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:52,940
I'm going to be up 160% LTV, and I'm going to get either liquidated or margin called.

740
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:54,700
So I had two things.

741
00:44:54,700 --> 00:45:00,780
either one, I have the income or cash reserves to cover a margin call if that comes, or I borrow

742
00:45:00,780 --> 00:45:07,640
less LTV. Right? So let's say that I understand market cycles and we're at the 200 day moving

743
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,860
average, which is historic low. I could borrow 60, 70%, probably pretty safe. We're at the peak.

744
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,160
I'm probably only going to borrow 30, 40%. And when you're borrowing that, you think people

745
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,900
should be looking to borrow against the Bitcoin to buy more Bitcoin? Or should they should be

746
00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:24,040
No, the first thing I want to do is I want to get rid of my taxable income.

747
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:24,340
Okay.

748
00:45:24,420 --> 00:45:29,640
I want to buy an asset that will wipe out my taxable income because that's instant money.

749
00:45:30,340 --> 00:45:30,700
Right?

750
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:31,880
So we talked about Bitcoin miners.

751
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,560
So I could borrow against some of my Bitcoin.

752
00:45:34,060 --> 00:45:35,560
I could buy Bitcoin miners.

753
00:45:35,980 --> 00:45:39,060
The Bitcoin miners wipe out my tax debt and they give me more Bitcoin.

754
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:46,540
Then next year, I take some of the newly mined Bitcoin and I borrow against that and I buy

755
00:45:46,540 --> 00:45:48,640
more miners and I wipe out my taxes again.

756
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:50,820
And it becomes a perpetual Bitcoin machine.

757
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:52,820
The government is buying my Bitcoin for me.

758
00:45:53,620 --> 00:45:58,860
And do you think this is the sort of thing that just like your average Bitcoin and people like me out there should be doing?

759
00:46:01,340 --> 00:46:07,060
Dave Ramsey is wrong, in my opinion, if you want to build wealth.

760
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,980
But he's right for 90% of the people.

761
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:12,980
90% of the people should never go in the surf.

762
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:14,960
Most people should never go in the surf, Danny.

763
00:46:15,140 --> 00:46:16,580
But you like to go in the surf.

764
00:46:17,180 --> 00:46:19,660
And so if you like to go in the surf, then you'll learn how to surf.

765
00:46:19,660 --> 00:46:20,740
Most people should not.

766
00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:23,440
where I have a house down in Cabo and down in Mexico.

767
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:25,240
And a lot of the resorts,

768
00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:27,040
they don't allow tourists to go in the ocean.

769
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,980
And I'm a surfer and I would go in the ocean.

770
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,360
And one time I was at this hotel

771
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,240
and they pulled me out of the water so many times.

772
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:34,460
They said, if you go in the ocean one more time,

773
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:35,400
we're going to kick you out of the hotel.

774
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:35,840
Really?

775
00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:38,840
Because people drowned all the time, right?

776
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,360
So most people, Danny, should not go into the surf.

777
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:42,340
You would agree with that.

778
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:42,620
Yeah.

779
00:46:43,180 --> 00:46:44,360
Especially without some practice.

780
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:45,320
Without some practice.

781
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,940
So if you ask me the question,

782
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,900
should people like you learn this?

783
00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:53,640
I mean, do you want to learn how to surf? Yeah. Because the fear that I have with stuff like this

784
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,560
is that people can work a long time to just stay humble, stack sats, keep doing their job,

785
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:03,080
and then try and like go out on the risk curve here and end up blowing themselves up. Yeah.

786
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,120
Just like they would jump on a jet ski and get dropped off a pipeline and they'd end up drowning.

787
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,940
So they should not do that. So, so imagine, so like even think about like with surfing

788
00:47:11,940 --> 00:47:17,240
to even get on a board and try to paddle off to the waves is very difficult. Yep. And to even

789
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:21,440
paddle the board out the pipeline, you would have to be pretty good to even get out there.

790
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,580
But imagine if you could jump on a jet ski and they could just drop you off out there.

791
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,540
So people should not do that. Don't do that. Start on little ways and work your way up.

792
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,280
I'm never going to borrow more than 10%. If I never borrowed more than 10% LTV against my Bitcoin,

793
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:42,100
the chance of me getting liquidated is essentially zero. Now, what if I make a high income

794
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:44,000
and I could just cover the margin requirement.

795
00:47:44,380 --> 00:47:47,740
If I borrowed 40% against my Bitcoin

796
00:47:47,740 --> 00:47:51,560
and it dropped 50%, I'm at an 80% LTV.

797
00:47:51,820 --> 00:47:53,380
There's no margin call at 80% LTV.

798
00:47:54,860 --> 00:47:56,680
So when you say people-

799
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,760
So people can choose how aggressive they want to be.

800
00:47:58,820 --> 00:48:00,840
Do you want to go surf one foot waves or 50 foot waves?

801
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:01,760
You get to choose that.

802
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:02,060
Yeah.

803
00:48:02,620 --> 00:48:04,580
Let's start from like the credit part.

804
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,820
What percentage is too high to be borrowing?

805
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,700
Like, I don't think anyone should be going out

806
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:11,380
and getting a credit card at 18% APR.

807
00:48:11,380 --> 00:48:12,400
So here's how I would do this.

808
00:48:12,620 --> 00:48:14,460
So first, we would need to understand liquidity.

809
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,400
You've done plenty of shows talking about Michael Howell and global liquidity.

810
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:19,240
So you understand liquidity.

811
00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:20,900
Liquidity is not cash.

812
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,700
Liquidity is the ability to get cash, right?

813
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,800
So when you look at like Michael Howell's index, or you look at like Nick Badi at the

814
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:29,980
Bitcoin layer, they have a really good one.

815
00:48:29,980 --> 00:48:34,520
They take the available credit because they're trying to look at how fast could the liquidity

816
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:35,220
expand, right?

817
00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:39,920
So the first thing we want to understand to set to answer this question is, what does

818
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,140
my liquidity look like?

819
00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:45,180
I have to answer that question first. What are my skills? Yeah. Right. So there's four ways we

820
00:48:45,180 --> 00:48:49,440
want to gauge this. Is the reason there being that if things go sideways, how quickly can get

821
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:54,900
out of the debt? Well, how safe can I be? So going in the water is dangerous. Let me do a safety

822
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:58,920
check. Do I know how to swim? Check. Do I have a life jacket? Check. Do I have a lifeguard? Check.

823
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,760
Right. So there's four liquidity measures that we want to know. And once we know those, then we can

824
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,780
understand how much risk we can take. Okay. Right. So do I have a life jacket? Do I have a jet ski?

825
00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:11,140
okay, I can go surf 30 foot waves. I don't have a jet ski. Okay. I'm going to go 15 waves.

826
00:49:11,460 --> 00:49:16,240
Right. Okay. So there's four liquidity. So number one, liquidity layer, number one is my operating

827
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:21,180
capital. So like, what is my operating expenses? That's my monthly expenses. That's includes my

828
00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:24,820
debt service, my business, my payroll, my household, whatever. If I'm doing this for a personal

829
00:49:24,820 --> 00:49:29,100
business, same thing, but how much do I need to spend every month? And then how many months

830
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:34,900
of that operating capital should I keep? Three months, six months, depends on what your income

831
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:39,000
looks like. If I'm a sales rep working off commission, my income's lumpy. So I probably

832
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,620
want to keep more. If I, if I'm a government job, then it's maybe less, right? So that depends.

833
00:49:44,060 --> 00:49:50,660
Then level two liquidity is cash equivalents. So this is money market accounts. This could be

834
00:49:50,660 --> 00:49:56,880
stretch making 11%. It's relatively stable. It's actually freaking crushing right now, right?

835
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:02,200
So I could put money into there and that's not cash, but it's a cash equivalent. I mean,

836
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,200
I can get it in less than seven days. I can sell the stretch. I can have the money wired to my

837
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:12,480
account and I have it. Okay. Level three is assets that are collateral assets that I can borrow

838
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:18,420
against. I could get a loan against my Bitcoin in a couple of days. I have a home equity line

839
00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:23,760
already standing on my house. My bank has given me a business credit line. So these are assets

840
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,720
that I could take collateral against, but they're going to take longer. It could take me a couple

841
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:33,540
weeks to get a, you know, refinance my house, to get equity line. Right. So now I know my liquidity

842
00:50:33,540 --> 00:50:38,480
and then level four are assets that are really not going to borrow against its land somewhere on a

843
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,060
beach that I can't really refinance or whatever. It's like a, it's a private equity deal or venture

844
00:50:42,060 --> 00:50:46,780
capital deal. Right. So it's an asset, but it's not a collateral asset. Right. So once I understand

845
00:50:46,780 --> 00:50:51,300
how much I have in each of those buckets, the goal is, is how much can I build up? So for example,

846
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:58,480
if I want to borrow 60% LTV against my Bitcoin, if it drops 50%, it's going to go to 120.

847
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:04,620
I'm going to either get margin called or I have to add collateral. Okay. Well, do I have the income

848
00:51:04,620 --> 00:51:11,080
to cover that? No. Okay. Do I have liquidity number two to cover that? I do. I have a hundred

849
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,840
thousand in stretch. Cool. So I could easily just grab 75,000 from stretch and cover that. No

850
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:22,120
problem. Right. Or, uh, shoot, I only had 50,000 in stretch. I need 70. No worries. I'll just go to

851
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:27,500
layer three and pull 25 there. So it's an asset that's, that's compounding and it's, it's a house,

852
00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:32,520
it's a rental property, it's whatever. But if I needed, I could get the liquidity to cover that

853
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,880
temporarily. That makes sense. That makes total sense. Yeah. I can't hold my breath forever,

854
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:42,740
but you know, I could come up in the jet ski could grab me. Right. So now once I've established

855
00:51:42,740 --> 00:51:48,020
layer one, layer two, layer three of liquidity, then it tells me how long I can stay alive for

856
00:51:48,020 --> 00:51:54,260
my layer four, my asset. Okay. So it's different for everybody. Now, if I have, you know, a ton

857
00:51:54,260 --> 00:51:58,880
of money in layer two and three, then I can be much more risky. I'm a big believer that Bitcoin

858
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,440
will probably change the way that the real estate market works over the long term. I think it's

859
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,300
further out than when people sort of suggest. But do you think owning property is still like a

860
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:12,400
reasonable financial decision, especially if it's one of those second home rental properties?

861
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:32,160
So again, I started my career in real estate. I fixed and flipped over 100 properties here in LA. I've built dozens and dozens of multimillion dollar projects. I think at one point I owned over 200 doors, like rental doors, we call them. I think it was 2021 I sold my last apartment to put into Bitcoin.

862
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:45,500
So I don't own any rental properties, but I still own properties. So I got a beach house. I got my house here in California. I got a beautiful ranch property. So I still own properties, but they're not like rental income properties. I'll just put it all into Bitcoin.

863
00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:46,880
Yeah, makes sense.

864
00:52:46,880 --> 00:53:14,480
Because Bitcoin has a better return profile than what the real estate does. The real estate is going to go up, you know, it's going up at 10% a year. And, you know, I can use leverage on that. So maybe my IRR is 20%, if I'm lucky, 15, 18%. But I think Bitcoin will perform that. And then I'll have to deal with maintenance and taxes and tenants and all that. And so I'm all in on Bitcoin, not rental properties. But there is a case for owning real estate. So again, at some point, you have enough assets, what are you going to do with them?

865
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,840
Well, I buy the ranch property in Texas.

866
00:53:16,940 --> 00:53:18,960
I get the tax depreciation from it.

867
00:53:19,540 --> 00:53:21,940
I get to use it whenever I want to go to Austin.

868
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:23,660
And it's a rental property.

869
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:24,140
It's Airbnb.

870
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:25,120
So it makes income.

871
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:25,900
So I have income.

872
00:53:26,020 --> 00:53:26,920
I get tax depreciation.

873
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:27,780
I get to use it.

874
00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:30,040
It's not going to outperform Bitcoin.

875
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:30,760
Of course not, no.

876
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,300
Do you think Bitcoin does demonetize the housing market?

877
00:53:33,580 --> 00:53:37,400
Because I was looking, right, this place we're in now, we're in Manhattan Beach, which is a nice area of LA.

878
00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:39,660
This place is like, it's okay.

879
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:41,860
It's a fine house.

880
00:53:41,940 --> 00:53:43,520
It's probably one of the worst houses on the block.

881
00:53:44,020 --> 00:53:45,400
It's like $3.5 million.

882
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:46,480
I had to look on Zillow.

883
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:46,960
Yeah.

884
00:53:47,420 --> 00:53:51,080
I don't think it demonetizes real estate the way people think it does.

885
00:53:51,140 --> 00:53:51,320
Okay.

886
00:53:51,740 --> 00:53:56,100
So as I said, and I'm a real estate guy, I sold all my rental properties and bought Bitcoin.

887
00:53:56,340 --> 00:54:01,820
So that means there's less demand for sticking money into investment properties, right?

888
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,540
Because there's other places to invest that are better.

889
00:54:04,220 --> 00:54:07,700
But a lot of the premium in real estate is supply and demand.

890
00:54:08,820 --> 00:54:12,640
You're like two houses from the beach in Manhattan.

891
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:17,720
And it is absolutely gorgeous out there right now. And so it's supply and demand here. And so

892
00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:24,400
there's only so many homes in downtown Manhattan or on the lake in Austin or on the beach here in

893
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,440
California. And so I think the supply and demand are for the bread and butter homes in Kansas City

894
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:34,200
or Indianapolis or San Antonio, Texas. But when you talk about scarce, what I call trophy real

895
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:39,360
estate, let me give you an example. Austin was the best performing real estate market in the

896
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,260
for two decades, for 20 years.

897
00:54:41,260 --> 00:54:42,420
Now it's like the worst performing,

898
00:54:42,420 --> 00:54:44,480
but for two decades, it was the best performing market.

899
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:58,390
Okay And it was a little bit above the median average It did about 40 from like 2020 to like 2024 But in Austin there a lake called Lake Travis and there only so many homes that are on the

900
00:54:58,390 --> 00:55:04,130
lake. And when you had all the big tech companies, Tesla and Facebook moving to Austin, those guys

901
00:55:04,130 --> 00:55:09,490
make 30, 40, 50 million a year. What do they care if the house is three or 4 million? I want a house

902
00:55:09,490 --> 00:55:14,810
on the lake, and I don't care if it's six, like whatever. Those homes went up 250%. So Austin went

903
00:55:14,810 --> 00:55:19,590
up 40, but the lakes went up 200 over 200%, right? Because of the supply and demand. So I think it,

904
00:55:19,590 --> 00:55:23,770
I think it demonetizes it from like a, I'm buying three bedroom, two bath houses across the country

905
00:55:23,770 --> 00:55:28,530
for rental income, but it doesn't demonetize it for like high demand areas like this.

906
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:31,150
That makes sense. Cause I was walking back from, we went out for dinner last night,

907
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:34,550
walking back and there's like one in five houses probably has lights on. Like,

908
00:55:34,550 --> 00:55:38,690
I don't think anyone actually lives around it. Yeah. It's a, I'm sure it's all just investment

909
00:55:38,690 --> 00:55:42,230
properties. And I doubt it's even all investment from people within America.

910
00:55:43,230 --> 00:55:44,870
Yeah, probably a good chance of that.

911
00:55:45,170 --> 00:55:47,990
So what is the key takeaway that you want Bitcoiners to take from this?

912
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:51,630
The key takeaway that I want Bitcoiners to take away from this is that

913
00:55:51,630 --> 00:55:54,290
Bitcoin is the cheat code.

914
00:55:54,410 --> 00:55:58,610
And if all you want to do is buy Bitcoin, it's the cheat code because you can outperform

915
00:55:58,610 --> 00:56:02,330
Wall Street and you can outperform private equity and venture capital and all those things

916
00:56:02,330 --> 00:56:03,030
just buying Bitcoin.

917
00:56:04,110 --> 00:56:08,730
But not everybody is able to buy enough Bitcoin to really get the life that they want or set

918
00:56:08,730 --> 00:56:10,450
up their future generations the way they want.

919
00:56:10,450 --> 00:56:18,210
And if you really want to build wealth, then you have to build a system around the Bitcoin to grow it faster, just like Michael Saylor did.

920
00:56:18,310 --> 00:56:28,550
And so instead of trying to follow hustle culture and Alex Hormozzi is telling you just to work harder and grind harder and don't stop and work your weekends, you're wasting.

921
00:56:28,550 --> 00:56:30,350
Forget the hustle culture.

922
00:56:31,110 --> 00:56:35,090
And instead, you have this asset base that is the cheat code.

923
00:56:35,230 --> 00:56:41,230
It is the most liquid, best compounding, returning asset that we have.

924
00:56:41,390 --> 00:56:45,310
And if we use it properly and smartly, we can grow our wealth much faster.

925
00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:46,210
We can achieve our goals.

926
00:56:46,330 --> 00:56:52,070
Most people could achieve, we'll call it retirement income, meaning replacing their income from

927
00:56:52,070 --> 00:56:55,350
working to asset-based in like five years.

928
00:56:55,630 --> 00:56:56,850
How much do you think people need to retire?

929
00:56:56,850 --> 00:56:59,550
Like, obviously it depends on how old you are, but like-

930
00:56:59,550 --> 00:57:00,530
Oh yeah, that's a good question.

931
00:57:00,670 --> 00:57:02,230
So I think retirement's a scam.

932
00:57:02,430 --> 00:57:04,810
That's another fiat mindset.

933
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:05,450
What do you mean?

934
00:57:05,790 --> 00:57:11,610
So what I mean is that most people are dreaming of 40 years, I'll have enough money where

935
00:57:11,610 --> 00:57:16,390
I can quit, I can live a life of leisure and my money will pay for me.

936
00:57:16,510 --> 00:57:16,730
Yeah.

937
00:57:17,010 --> 00:57:17,910
And I think that's a scam.

938
00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:19,190
That's a fiat system.

939
00:57:19,730 --> 00:57:25,390
And I can prove that in a sense by saying, or just asking a rhetorical question,

940
00:57:25,390 --> 00:57:32,370
why do all billionaires still work? I mean, I think there's probably a multiple answers to that.

941
00:57:32,590 --> 00:57:36,990
I think a lot of them get addicted to work. It's because there's two types of people in the world.

942
00:57:36,990 --> 00:57:41,130
I talked about this when we opened. There's two types of people in the world. There's creators

943
00:57:41,130 --> 00:57:46,350
and there's consumers. Warren Buffett retired. Well, he stepped down from the head of the board

944
00:57:46,350 --> 00:57:51,910
at 93, right? I think it was 93 because he's just a creator. That's what he does. He just creates

945
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:54,350
and he just creates more than he consumes.

946
00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:58,790
The fiat mindset has turned us into consumers, right?

947
00:57:58,870 --> 00:58:00,290
But we're meant to be creators.

948
00:58:00,550 --> 00:58:01,930
I believe we were made in God's image.

949
00:58:02,090 --> 00:58:03,750
God is the creator, we're creators,

950
00:58:03,890 --> 00:58:04,710
we're meant to be creating.

951
00:58:05,110 --> 00:58:07,410
So what I think that what we should retire from,

952
00:58:07,530 --> 00:58:10,770
what we really want is not the freedom to not work.

953
00:58:11,350 --> 00:58:14,510
We want the freedom to work on what we wanna work on.

954
00:58:14,590 --> 00:58:15,590
Yeah, I agree with that.

955
00:58:15,590 --> 00:58:17,810
Like my idea would be spend as much time

956
00:58:17,810 --> 00:58:18,630
with the family as I want

957
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:20,990
and then pick and choose what work I do want to do.

958
00:58:20,990 --> 00:58:22,130
That's the perfect scenario.

959
00:58:22,350 --> 00:58:23,690
Pick and choose what you want to work on.

960
00:58:23,830 --> 00:58:29,030
And what happens, as you know, as you've come up in life, as you've made more money,

961
00:58:29,950 --> 00:58:32,410
you start to want to solve bigger problems.

962
00:58:33,470 --> 00:58:37,010
I'm sure 10 years ago, you were living hand to mouth, and you were just thinking about

963
00:58:37,010 --> 00:58:37,650
how do I make a buck.

964
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:40,690
But today, you're like, how can I help the country of El Salvador?

965
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:43,670
You're thinking about bigger things.

966
00:58:43,830 --> 00:58:47,090
And so that's really the point that we should all get to and really push that value into

967
00:58:47,090 --> 00:58:47,470
the world.

968
00:58:48,210 --> 00:58:49,970
So you don't think, will you never retire?

969
00:58:50,990 --> 00:58:58,690
I feel like I'm retired now, you know? I mean, like I get to fly to a conference. I mean,

970
00:58:58,750 --> 00:59:02,390
I, unfortunately I missed Abu Dhabi, but we could have been there surfing in Slater's pool together.

971
00:59:02,590 --> 00:59:05,810
We would have been having dinner. I'm going to parties with Michael. Say like,

972
00:59:06,110 --> 00:59:11,230
that's like people pay for that. Right. So, uh, that's why I say this never feels like a job.

973
00:59:11,230 --> 00:59:16,130
Yeah. And so like, and that's like freedom from, from doing things I don't want to do to freedom.

974
00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:20,650
I do want to do, uh, I'm going to go speak in, uh, Vancouver at a conference I go to every year

975
00:59:20,650 --> 00:59:23,530
here in a couple of weeks. And then I'm going to dip up into the back country and spend a few days

976
00:59:23,530 --> 00:59:28,330
in the snowboarding in the back country. Heli skiing again, heli skiing and snow biking. And so

977
00:59:28,330 --> 00:59:35,650
like, you know, I'm doing it right. I have daughter, my daughter's in high school. I am

978
00:59:35,650 --> 00:59:41,610
starting to think maybe when she's done with high school, maybe I'll slow down a little bit and add

979
00:59:41,610 --> 00:59:45,870
a little bit more travel for my wife and I, but like I took her, I spoke at Bitcoin Prague and

980
00:59:45,870 --> 00:59:49,530
her and I went to Budapest for a few days and I took her to Bitcoin Asia. And then we went to

981
00:59:49,530 --> 00:59:53,790
China for a few days. So it's like, I don't know, I'm kind of doing it. Yeah. I feel the same thing.

982
00:59:53,870 --> 00:59:56,610
Like my wife and daughter just chilling on the beach right now while we record this. Yeah.

983
00:59:57,450 --> 01:00:00,790
All right. Before we close out, can we talk a little bit about macro? Cause I know you're

984
01:00:00,790 --> 01:00:06,250
following this pretty closely. 2026 is set up to be a pretty interesting year, I think. Did you see

985
01:00:06,250 --> 01:00:11,070
the recent Jerome Powell hostage video? Yeah. What do you think is going on? What are you expecting

986
01:00:11,070 --> 01:00:18,510
this year? What, what my base case is, what I'm expecting, what is my above average probability

987
01:00:18,510 --> 01:00:21,250
is that Trump gets what he wants.

988
01:00:22,090 --> 01:00:23,870
Trump says he wants 1% rates.

989
01:00:24,550 --> 01:00:25,890
I'm guessing before he-

990
01:00:25,890 --> 01:00:26,310
Is that what he said?

991
01:00:26,370 --> 01:00:26,830
Has he said 1%?

992
01:00:26,830 --> 01:00:27,650
He said it multiple times.

993
01:00:27,650 --> 01:00:27,790
Okay.

994
01:00:28,270 --> 01:00:30,030
I think before he leaves office,

995
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:31,430
we'll get close to that.

996
01:00:32,470 --> 01:00:33,230
Not this year,

997
01:00:33,350 --> 01:00:34,750
but I think before he leaves office,

998
01:00:34,810 --> 01:00:35,690
we got what, three more years?

999
01:00:35,870 --> 01:00:36,910
I think we'll get close to that.

1000
01:00:37,010 --> 01:00:37,150
Yeah.

1001
01:00:38,050 --> 01:00:39,430
He wants Jerome Powell out.

1002
01:00:39,530 --> 01:00:41,330
That's no secret, obviously,

1003
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:42,770
based off of what you just brought up.

1004
01:00:42,770 --> 01:00:44,510
But even if you look at his first term,

1005
01:00:44,690 --> 01:00:45,750
he was fighting with Powell.

1006
01:00:45,930 --> 01:00:48,490
Powell raised rates on him in 2018 and 2019.

1007
01:00:48,510 --> 01:00:53,250
and he thought that was like a personal attack back then. Trump's a real estate guy. He wants

1008
01:00:53,250 --> 01:00:57,430
low rates. And now he called them all kinds of names back then. And now he's calling them names

1009
01:00:57,430 --> 01:01:01,270
again, calls them too late. And he's always buying the curve and all these things. So there's no

1010
01:01:01,270 --> 01:01:07,510
mistake. He wants Powell out. He wants rates at 1%. So what I think my base case for this year

1011
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:13,970
is he gets what he wants. Powell's out. A dove is installed. Rates start coming down.

1012
01:01:13,970 --> 01:01:16,330
and we get a big liquidity boom,

1013
01:01:16,590 --> 01:01:18,010
we see that other central banks,

1014
01:01:18,310 --> 01:01:19,450
Japan, China,

1015
01:01:19,570 --> 01:01:21,230
they're waiting on the US to sort of move.

1016
01:01:21,530 --> 01:01:22,710
And I think the liquidity spigots

1017
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:24,290
really come on strong in 2026.

1018
01:01:24,570 --> 01:01:25,430
That's my base case.

1019
01:01:25,830 --> 01:01:26,910
So you think it's going to be a good year for Bitcoin?

1020
01:01:27,210 --> 01:01:28,330
I think it's going to be a good year for Bitcoin.

1021
01:01:28,630 --> 01:01:30,110
So that kind of blows out the idea

1022
01:01:30,110 --> 01:01:31,230
of a four-year cycle.

1023
01:01:31,350 --> 01:01:31,910
That's over then.

1024
01:01:32,330 --> 01:01:33,750
Isn't the four-year cycle already over?

1025
01:01:33,890 --> 01:01:34,390
I think so.

1026
01:01:35,430 --> 01:01:38,050
I mean, technically, no.

1027
01:01:38,410 --> 01:01:40,210
Because per four-year cycles,

1028
01:01:40,350 --> 01:01:41,650
the peak should have been in November.

1029
01:01:41,650 --> 01:01:44,210
and our peak was in November.

1030
01:01:44,910 --> 01:01:45,730
It was in October.

1031
01:01:46,090 --> 01:01:46,370
October, yeah.

1032
01:01:46,510 --> 01:01:49,470
But I do think like if we even get close to it again

1033
01:01:49,470 --> 01:01:50,130
in the next few months,

1034
01:01:50,130 --> 01:01:52,490
like there's no way the four-year cycle is real at that point.

1035
01:01:52,830 --> 01:01:55,070
I think the four-year cycle is over in my opinion

1036
01:01:55,070 --> 01:01:58,010
because I think it was never about

1037
01:01:58,010 --> 01:02:00,590
the four-year supply demand shock.

1038
01:02:00,690 --> 01:02:02,310
It was always about the global liquidity cycle.

1039
01:02:02,470 --> 01:02:02,610
Yeah.

1040
01:02:03,070 --> 01:02:04,350
And now there's, you know,

1041
01:02:04,430 --> 01:02:06,070
I've been hearing about this from Michael Howe.

1042
01:02:06,110 --> 01:02:07,370
I've been hearing about this from Ralph Paul.

1043
01:02:07,370 --> 01:02:08,530
He does really great work.

1044
01:02:08,610 --> 01:02:09,790
I know Bitcoiners don't like Ralph Paul,

1045
01:02:09,790 --> 01:02:14,130
but real vision does a lot of really good he's got terrible like quote unquote crypto takes but

1046
01:02:14,130 --> 01:02:17,470
good macro takes really good macro takes and i know a lot of people want to throw the baby out

1047
01:02:17,470 --> 01:02:23,750
the bath water but i can not agree with his sui or whatever his nfts but i could also appreciate

1048
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:28,370
he's got good macro takes and uh real vision has some really good global equity charts they were

1049
01:02:28,370 --> 01:02:32,430
the first one that really opened my eyes to the ism business cycle which you see a lot of bitcoin

1050
01:02:32,430 --> 01:02:38,610
is running with right now yeah and so um i think uh the macro is always in the driver's seat so

1051
01:02:38,610 --> 01:02:45,170
from that perspective, I expect it to be a good year. What I'm watching for, what the gray swan

1052
01:02:45,170 --> 01:02:53,250
is, what I'm cautious of is that it's a political reason. And that is that

1053
01:02:53,250 --> 01:03:01,250
Trump is really kicking the hornet's nest, let's just say. He's certainly trying to disrupt the

1054
01:03:01,250 --> 01:03:07,910
deep state from taking down the NGOs with USAID to blocking fraud in Minnesota to

1055
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:14,630
maybe Venezuela being part of taking out some CIA deep state stuff. There's a lot of hornets

1056
01:03:14,630 --> 01:03:21,630
nests that are being kicked up. And they, the deep state, the powers that be, have never wanted

1057
01:03:21,630 --> 01:03:25,330
Trump in office. So when he took office the first term, they came up with the Steele dossier,

1058
01:03:25,470 --> 01:03:31,030
the Russia collusion hoax, all of that. They tried to impeach him multiple times. They piled

1059
01:03:31,030 --> 01:03:35,090
in a, you know, whatever, 100 lawsuits against him.

1060
01:03:35,090 --> 01:03:36,790
They shot him.

1061
01:03:36,790 --> 01:03:41,790
And so they, whoever those people are that are doing that,

1062
01:03:42,270 --> 01:03:43,490
don't want him there.

1063
01:03:43,490 --> 01:03:46,090
And one really good way to make sure that they get out

1064
01:03:46,090 --> 01:03:48,650
in 2026 being a midterm year

1065
01:03:48,650 --> 01:03:51,130
is to not let the markets rip.

1066
01:03:51,130 --> 01:03:53,190
And he needs those markets firing out.

1067
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:54,550
He needs the markets firing

1068
01:03:54,550 --> 01:03:58,030
or that the Republicans could lose the midterms this year

1069
01:03:58,030 --> 01:03:59,230
in 2026.

1070
01:03:59,230 --> 01:04:00,570
And so,

1071
01:04:01,030 --> 01:04:07,070
it could happen. And this is what I'm paying attention to, potentially using the markets,

1072
01:04:07,210 --> 01:04:13,370
the Fed, the interest rates, the banks to bring the markets down into the midterms so that they

1073
01:04:13,370 --> 01:04:19,110
could change the power. And do you think if Trump does instill some person who's basically like a

1074
01:04:19,110 --> 01:04:25,490
stooge in the Fed, that that kind of loss of whatever independence is there might spook the

1075
01:04:25,490 --> 01:04:29,510
markets and make things a bit wonky? Well, so first of all, it's sort of like a misnomer.

1076
01:04:29,510 --> 01:04:31,910
Like Trump can't just elect whoever he wants.

1077
01:04:32,310 --> 01:04:33,990
But he will get what he wants.

1078
01:04:34,330 --> 01:04:40,690
Well, what happens is the Fed governors give you, they give him the options to choose from.

1079
01:04:40,830 --> 01:04:40,950
Yeah.

1080
01:04:41,210 --> 01:04:45,010
So they're going to say, hey, freedom to choose, but here's a few people to choose from.

1081
01:04:45,090 --> 01:04:47,070
So he doesn't just get to bring whoever he wants in.

1082
01:04:47,390 --> 01:04:50,250
So they're not going to say, hey, you can choose a stooge.

1083
01:04:50,270 --> 01:04:52,170
Like they're going to have a curated selection.

1084
01:04:52,850 --> 01:04:54,750
But to answer the independence question.

1085
01:04:54,750 --> 01:05:01,990
I don't think the Fed has been independent,

1086
01:05:02,130 --> 01:05:03,810
nor do I think the Fed should be independent.

1087
01:05:04,510 --> 01:05:06,090
Okay, let's do that one at a time then.

1088
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:08,050
Because even if it hasn't been fully independent,

1089
01:05:08,130 --> 01:05:09,110
which I probably agree with,

1090
01:05:09,410 --> 01:05:11,810
it can get less independent.

1091
01:05:11,810 --> 01:05:13,310
And I think it probably will do.

1092
01:05:14,310 --> 01:05:17,110
Well, you and I would agree that we should not even have a Fed.

1093
01:05:17,310 --> 01:05:18,150
Yeah, for sure.

1094
01:05:18,370 --> 01:05:20,370
But like the world we live in, we do.

1095
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:24,370
And like Powell, as much as I think he's got things wrong

1096
01:05:24,370 --> 01:05:24,990
over the last few years,

1097
01:05:25,050 --> 01:05:27,290
like he has done a relatively good job

1098
01:05:27,290 --> 01:05:31,330
of not taking too much influence from Trump, I think.

1099
01:05:31,970 --> 01:05:33,290
And like, if someone steps in,

1100
01:05:33,350 --> 01:05:34,990
like it's clearly not getting more independent

1101
01:05:34,990 --> 01:05:36,530
at that point, if someone steps in

1102
01:05:36,530 --> 01:05:37,910
who just wants to do whatever Trump says.

1103
01:05:38,450 --> 01:05:40,810
So do you think the Fed should just be totally independent?

1104
01:05:41,610 --> 01:05:42,930
I think it's better being independent

1105
01:05:42,930 --> 01:05:43,750
than an arm of the government.

1106
01:05:44,890 --> 01:05:45,610
Do you not?

1107
01:05:46,350 --> 01:05:47,150
I don't.

1108
01:05:47,250 --> 01:05:47,450
Why?

1109
01:05:47,970 --> 01:05:49,950
Because the government is supposed to be we, the people.

1110
01:05:50,530 --> 01:05:51,130
But it's not.

1111
01:05:51,530 --> 01:05:52,390
But it's supposed to be.

1112
01:05:52,490 --> 01:05:52,670
Yeah.

1113
01:05:52,670 --> 01:06:10,470
And so anything that we can do to get it closer to that is good. Anything that goes further from that is bad. So I understand that nothing is black and white. Things can be good and bad at the same time. Things are spectrums. So things that get us closer to freedom, I'm for those. Things that get me away from freedom, I'm against those.

1114
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:16,650
And so Trump has done many things that are anti-capitalist and anti-freedom, like taking equity and NVIDIA, for example.

1115
01:06:16,890 --> 01:06:17,770
That's a terrible idea.

1116
01:06:17,850 --> 01:06:19,050
I'm not for that at all.

1117
01:06:19,290 --> 01:06:22,170
But he's also been repealing regulations left and right.

1118
01:06:22,270 --> 01:06:23,410
And I'm totally for that.

1119
01:06:23,570 --> 01:06:25,550
So we have to understand there's a lot of nuance here.

1120
01:06:25,810 --> 01:06:29,130
So I don't think the Fed should be independent.

1121
01:06:29,330 --> 01:06:30,970
I think that, well, one, we shouldn't have a Fed.

1122
01:06:31,270 --> 01:06:35,250
Number two, it shouldn't be independent because we, the people, should have more control over that.

1123
01:06:35,250 --> 01:06:41,790
I think the other thing is, and this is sort of a newer view that I've developed, and it was listening to Scott Bessent.

1124
01:06:42,350 --> 01:06:51,670
But when you understand the economy and you understand where we're at right now, and you understand the shift in global energy and the race to get AI, for example,

1125
01:06:52,750 --> 01:07:00,130
you might agree that the country that comes out ahead with energy and AI is going to have a head start to the rest of the world.

1126
01:07:00,210 --> 01:07:00,370
Yep.

1127
01:07:00,370 --> 01:07:07,050
Right. So you might agree that that's it should be an imperative of most countries to try to keep up at least.

1128
01:07:07,550 --> 01:07:09,670
Right. And it's certainly between the U.S. and China right now.

1129
01:07:10,150 --> 01:07:16,810
But you would also then understand that we're going to have to build that capacity for that future world.

1130
01:07:17,350 --> 01:07:21,870
In order to do that, we need energy. We need mining. We need refineries.

1131
01:07:21,950 --> 01:07:25,150
We need data centers like we need we need to bring chip manufacturing.

1132
01:07:25,150 --> 01:07:29,310
We need a lot. Yep. OK. But that's a long term vision.

1133
01:07:29,310 --> 01:07:35,510
And maybe we need the central bank and the monetary policy to help accommodate that.

1134
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:48,270
So maybe the monetary policy should help achieve the goals of the country for we, the people, as opposed to be like, no, we just protect the private interests of the private bankers.

1135
01:07:48,390 --> 01:07:52,390
And we're just trying to extract as much liquidity as we can and screw what the country does.

1136
01:07:52,390 --> 01:07:57,210
But do you not think there's an issue with if the Fed was not independent, it consolidates even more power in the president?

1137
01:07:57,530 --> 01:08:00,850
And it kind of, I don't think we have free markets in the world apart from Bitcoin.

1138
01:08:01,150 --> 01:08:04,650
But it makes the markets even less free if that's the case.

1139
01:08:06,810 --> 01:08:09,030
Because then it gets to really picking winners and losers.

1140
01:08:10,790 --> 01:08:17,690
The central bank should fall under executive action.

1141
01:08:19,270 --> 01:08:20,930
And the president is the executive.

1142
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:33,730
Now, the reason why the creasers from Jekyll Island sold us on an independent bank is so that it wouldn't be swayed by four-year presidential cycles and they could take the longer view.

1143
01:08:33,870 --> 01:08:34,050
Yeah.

1144
01:08:34,050 --> 01:08:34,670
Right?

1145
01:08:35,250 --> 01:08:47,010
But in a wartime effort like World War II or in a time of reindustrialization like right now, maybe the monetary policy should help accommodate what the government needs to get done.

1146
01:08:49,270 --> 01:08:52,350
But nothing so permanent as temporary measures.

1147
01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:57,570
Yeah. I mean, obviously, we both agree that it should just be disbanded. And we could argue at

1148
01:08:57,570 --> 01:09:02,110
the end of the day that how much power does the Fed really even have? Because they can set Fed

1149
01:09:02,110 --> 01:09:06,830
funds rate, but the bond vigilantes are going to set the price of the bonds. So what the Fed is

1150
01:09:06,830 --> 01:09:13,030
going to do is they're going to use the banking system that they've created to manipulate the

1151
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:18,150
price and they'll buy the bonds down and they'll try to control that yield. That's anything but a

1152
01:09:18,150 --> 01:09:23,450
free market. Yeah. And so if we have a boom of liquidity, whatever happens with the Fed happens

1153
01:09:23,450 --> 01:09:27,190
with the Fed, this is going to be a pretty good year for Bitcoin. I think, I mean, that's my base

1154
01:09:27,190 --> 01:09:31,370
case. My base case is it's a good year for Bitcoin. I think we end the year higher than we started.

1155
01:09:31,890 --> 01:09:35,710
I think we make new all-time highs. That's my above average base case.

1156
01:09:37,510 --> 01:09:40,370
I think that as you've had many conversations,

1157
01:09:41,050 --> 01:09:47,490
the Fed has been in between a rock and a hard place for a long time, but the space keeps getting

1158
01:09:47,490 --> 01:09:54,070
tighter. The interest on the national debt has gone to levels that are just, they don't work any

1159
01:09:54,070 --> 01:10:00,710
longer. And so we're at a situation where if they lower rates, potentially we have more inflation.

1160
01:10:00,710 --> 01:10:06,090
And if they don't, then the banking system plumbing blows out. But the problem is that

1161
01:10:06,090 --> 01:10:11,090
we started, I think before we started recording, we were talking about the fixed income markets

1162
01:10:11,090 --> 01:10:15,450
and the fixed income markets are the largest markets in the world. And you have

1163
01:10:15,450 --> 01:10:23,630
I want to say 65 million retirees in the just the developed in the West alone.

1164
01:10:24,290 --> 01:10:30,190
We have 10,000 a day in the United States, and they need fixed income, they need income to pay

1165
01:10:30,190 --> 01:10:35,750
for their medicine, their rent, etc. But the problem is that what the government is forced

1166
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:40,350
to do right now is run an IMF white paper playbook called the liquidation of government debt,

1167
01:10:40,350 --> 01:10:42,290
which is to liquidate the bondholders.

1168
01:10:43,130 --> 01:10:45,350
And so we're in this situation

1169
01:10:45,350 --> 01:10:47,750
where the government is forced to liquidate that debt.

1170
01:10:47,830 --> 01:10:48,950
It's the only way out.

1171
01:10:49,650 --> 01:10:52,550
And inflation on one side,

1172
01:10:52,930 --> 01:10:54,430
destruction of the financial system on the other.

1173
01:10:55,310 --> 01:10:56,270
You pick inflation.

1174
01:10:56,430 --> 01:10:59,390
I think if people were given a choice,

1175
01:10:59,710 --> 01:11:03,190
would you rather your income gets cut in half,

1176
01:11:03,790 --> 01:11:05,410
all the assets, your home, your stock account,

1177
01:11:05,490 --> 01:11:06,330
everything gets cut in half,

1178
01:11:06,330 --> 01:11:08,310
but gas prices come down 10 or 20%?

1179
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:14,810
or your income goes up and all your assets go by 50%

1180
01:11:14,810 --> 01:11:16,130
and gas goes up by 10%.

1181
01:11:16,130 --> 01:11:17,490
Of course, easy question.

1182
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:18,270
It's an easy question.

1183
01:11:18,430 --> 01:11:19,890
Yeah, but it's easy for us.

1184
01:11:19,950 --> 01:11:21,910
It's not so easy for people that have no assets.

1185
01:11:22,970 --> 01:11:24,230
Yeah, but even them,

1186
01:11:24,390 --> 01:11:26,310
like their job and their income is on the line

1187
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:27,930
because when deflation happens,

1188
01:11:28,090 --> 01:11:30,070
businesses don't have as much income.

1189
01:11:30,310 --> 01:11:31,390
Businesses shut down.

1190
01:11:31,790 --> 01:11:32,430
You're a sales rep.

1191
01:11:32,490 --> 01:11:34,330
You're not making as many sales as you were before.

1192
01:11:34,530 --> 01:11:37,110
So it's like, even for the savers, it hits them

1193
01:11:37,110 --> 01:11:38,830
because their income takes a hit.

1194
01:11:39,050 --> 01:11:39,170
Yeah.

1195
01:11:39,650 --> 01:11:42,490
So if we are like, if the four-year cycle's over-

1196
01:11:42,490 --> 01:11:43,410
Which is why, Danny,

1197
01:11:43,850 --> 01:11:45,150
everyone needs to get off their income

1198
01:11:45,150 --> 01:11:46,010
and run off their treasury.

1199
01:11:47,490 --> 01:11:49,630
Because you can't outrun,

1200
01:11:49,790 --> 01:11:52,410
your income can't outrun the inflation that's coming.

1201
01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:55,670
You cannot increase your income fast enough

1202
01:11:55,670 --> 01:11:57,830
to keep up with the rate of inflation that's coming.

1203
01:11:58,070 --> 01:12:00,170
Wages have not kept up and they won't keep up.

1204
01:12:00,430 --> 01:12:03,070
The only way that it will is with your assets.

1205
01:12:03,270 --> 01:12:04,590
So back to that hypothetical choice

1206
01:12:04,590 --> 01:12:05,570
that people could be given.

1207
01:12:05,570 --> 01:12:07,830
if I stop living off my revenue

1208
01:12:07,830 --> 01:12:10,030
that will never run fast enough to keep up

1209
01:12:10,030 --> 01:12:11,110
and start working off of.

1210
01:12:11,390 --> 01:12:12,270
So like, for example,

1211
01:12:12,650 --> 01:12:14,530
maybe the cost of living goes up 10%.

1212
01:12:14,530 --> 01:12:15,630
My weight is going up 5%,

1213
01:12:15,630 --> 01:12:17,270
but my assets went up 20%.

1214
01:12:17,270 --> 01:12:18,610
You're winning.

1215
01:12:19,550 --> 01:12:22,310
If you stop trying to live off your revenue

1216
01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:23,510
and start living off your assets.

1217
01:12:23,790 --> 01:12:24,730
I did have another question,

1218
01:12:24,790 --> 01:12:26,170
but that feels like the perfect place to end.

1219
01:12:26,270 --> 01:12:26,510
Okay.

1220
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:28,730
Mark, thank you, John.

1221
01:12:29,010 --> 01:12:30,290
Thank you for coming down to do this.

1222
01:12:30,510 --> 01:12:30,710
Pleasure.

1223
01:12:31,050 --> 01:12:32,550
I'm sure we'll do it again at some point soon.

1224
01:12:32,590 --> 01:12:32,750
Yeah.

1225
01:12:33,470 --> 01:12:35,250
This has all been about the Bitcoin cheat code.

1226
01:12:35,250 --> 01:12:37,210
are you going to finally come to cheat code this year?

1227
01:12:37,310 --> 01:12:37,910
I would love to.

1228
01:12:38,150 --> 01:12:38,650
You got to come.

1229
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:40,310
Whisper in Peter's ear for me.

1230
01:12:40,410 --> 01:12:41,570
I mean, you can just come.

1231
01:12:41,790 --> 01:12:42,330
Let's sort it.

1232
01:12:42,530 --> 01:12:44,090
It's the end of March in Bedford.

1233
01:12:44,510 --> 01:12:45,410
We'd love to have you there, man.

1234
01:12:45,410 --> 01:12:45,550
Yeah.

1235
01:12:45,550 --> 01:12:45,790
Be good.

1236
01:12:45,970 --> 01:12:46,150
Yeah.

1237
01:12:46,190 --> 01:12:46,570
I want to come.

1238
01:12:46,770 --> 01:12:47,010
Awesome.

1239
01:12:47,470 --> 01:12:48,170
Thank you for this, mate.

1240
01:12:48,330 --> 01:12:48,850
That's been great.

1241
01:12:48,990 --> 01:12:49,190
Thank you.

1242
01:13:05,250 --> 01:13:35,230
Thank you.