some people call it mindfulness some people call it meditation some people call it prayer
some people they go on walks and they call it clearing their head or they call it the
presence or they say i'm touching grass but these are all forms of meditation and it's
it's something that not as many,
most people don't are doing these days where they're not doing enough of it.
They say there's so much information,
so much stimulus from your screens,
from the crazy stuff going on in the world,
headlines,
the news,
the announcements,
the situations.
And if you want to start meditating,
is something that in order to do it it takes time you have to take time to begin to meditate to begin
to do practice mindfulness to be to to pray every day whatever it is that you're doing
you have to take time and one of the things that you notice if you're like me is when you try to do
it all you can think about is the time like that is there's a million i guess things you can i guess
the point of sometimes meditation is to not focus on anything and sometimes it's to focus intensely
on something and and think about it but when you're meditating you damn time is going by so
slow right now when i'm doing these other things when my mind is busy when the world is busy and
Things are going crazy.
The time seems like it's flying by.
In fact, time feels like it's flying by faster and faster every day.
But that thoughtfulness that when you start thinking about time, you realize time itself is a huge rabbit hole.
and today we're talking to the meditation man the man who built the kind chain calendar the
like the guy who makes you know the digital bitcoin watches some people call it um the
i think he's a shaman he's like he's like a pine shaman it's tc how are you doing today tc you are
the most credentialed
washnaker in all
the Bitcoin space.
It's great to have you on.
Meditation is
incredibly important
because in many ways it's a way
to integrate the experiences that
you, the knowledge
that you learn from 40 hours
Bitcoin podcasts a week.
Is that what you're trying to communicate
with your username meditation
Is that why you've gotten into meditation is just seeing the importance of integrating the knowledge that you've learned from listening to podcasts?
And I think without a doubt that my early discovery of Bitcoin and really falling into the rabbit hole, that whole experience could be described as meditation.
where I was just watching so many podcasts
and having so many conversations with so many people
about those podcasts,
discovering deeper understanding,
gaining more conviction in Bitcoin.
That's the path.
That is the meditation.
Some people,
some people like when they're driving their car,
they're singing in their car.
Or they'll sing in the shower.
They'll just be like singing while they're mowing the lawn.
But some people, they have Bitcoin podcasts in the shower.
They have Bitcoin podcasts in their car with themselves or with their mowing the lawn.
Do you ever do that?
Do you ever, do you have like a little one on like a, playing a podcast in your head while you're doing your daily tasks?
Like the meditative, what you're carrying, what's the quote?
where I like carry in a bucket of water every day before enlightenment,
after enlightenment.
Yeah.
I mean,
podcasts while you work podcasts while you're cooking,
washing dishes,
gardening,
taking the kid to school.
It's a,
it's a,
it's a constant.
It's that focus.
That focus is very important.
especially early, early in your journey.
So you create a time chain calendar.
That's what you're known for.
So you're familiar with building these web applications.
Have you seen anybody create a Bitcoin meditation app yet?
and uh have you seen any bitcoin meditations out there
no but um i'm going to start vibe coding that while we proceed with the rest of the uh
the recording here i i will say i had this one experience one time where i was
in a sauna with some people and they put on some michael saylor plebs lob breathing exercises
and it was one of the most, they actually went through
and they created a plebs law meditation track.
It took me by surprise.
Yeah, I mean, people are going to need to calm down
because sometimes they get a little bit too excited.
Sometimes they jump the gun, you know.
The world doesn't always cooperate.
So there's always a need, I think.
It's a chaotic world, right?
I think we need more relaxation, especially in Bitcoin.
It's a high-stress world.
It is a high-stress world sometimes, right?
And it also depends on your perspective.
do you you know one of the big causes of stress in much much of the community a few years ago
was it was you know people like a stick with men and there's millions more like him they were worried
that people were not that they were in a fool that are in by xrp they were not realizing the
theory was a shit coin they were worried about like the bankless guys and each other as you would
constantly tease them and troll them and say that there was going to be a foot landing or they would
say that xrp was going to ten dollars and like it was just this massive stress like we have to
we have to teach everybody it's bitcoin not crypto in swan they they stole three to 16 times a day
um and and it didn't seem like you know bitcoin had it clearly won is it clearly
transcended the rest of crypto the meme coins were just making a making a fool of the rest of
the industry but then ai has come along and ai is now the new like it's the new um shiny
technology for the future and it's all the bitcoin mine it's still bitcoin miners like all their all
all the people who want to mine all the guys who uh understand how to like build the infrastructure
and run these continued facilities,
they're all going to do AI compute.
They're pivoting from Bitcoin mining to AI compute.
And then all the content creators
are starting to kind of go down the path
of like exploring like,
hey, I can make a podcast about AI
or with AI or iTunes,
talk about this or that.
Everybody's focused on AI now.
And like they're punishing crypto
and Bitcoin conversations on the algorithm
to social media.
and honestly if you were to go and check the vibe right now there's a lot of people who are saying
or observing noticing wherever you want it though he's talking about bitcoin or he's talking about
ai or the situation that you got the situation going on we get to that shortly um so the stress
is back it's like is bitcoin it'll lose to ai or it's like it's ai is more popular it's more pretty
um but is i personally think that is a a false like dichotomy it's like not one versus the other
because um vibe coding is awesome uh ai music is fun as hell is fun to you i mean there's so many
tools you can like generate pictures of people in bikinis you know on with rock in like two seconds
jan and i is yet faster like what's your what's your take on this like this bitcoin versus ai
are you embracing ai are you using ai to build more time chain calendars
yeah i mean that's that's really uh that's the cutting edge
everyone knows quad code is all up in their feed that's that's the latest experience
No, but really everyone who does any kind of code, I think, has some experience with the benefits of AI as a coding tool.
And there's two sides to that. You're going to have all kinds of plebs, vibe coding, all kinds of things they imagine should be there with Bitcoin.
And on the other hand, don't you have to consider if AI thinks that, you know, like where AI places its importance on the monetary aspects of Bitcoin when Core is using it, you know?
You have to consider both sides.
The filter debate has really died down.
And I think one thing that's apparent is that Udi and his spam probably wasn't that significant of a threat to the survival of Bitcoin.
but one thing that is not yet fully realized is the threat of an army of vibe coding plebs
to the bitcoin network with all their uh you know machinations of you know being able to
potentially conjure you know other sort of you know spam like the uh you know it's not fair to
to compare Cardano and Bitcoin to each other,
but a vibe coding pleb was able to completely derail the Cardano network for a
bit.
And,
uh,
Charles Hoskinson wanted to,
uh,
to prosecute.
That was his solution to it.
But,
uh,
do you like,
what do you think the dangers of vibe coding plebs?
What,
what type of messes could they be creating going into the future?
Is that a threat?
Yeah, I mean, it's a threat to Bitcoin for sure. We're going to have all kinds of insecure wallets, I guarantee it. There will be people losing their keys because of some vibe-coded things.
I think it's more important than ever to not trust and verify. You have to really do your research on the tools you're using because I think we are going to see an explosion of more apps and I think wallets especially, that's dangerous.
And then there's the whole world of different clients, different Bitcoin implementations.
There are going to be five coding Nostra clients, for sure.
And those, they're just going to have terrible UX.
Well, hopefully the AI is going to help with that, too.
I think it's going to be a really interesting time because things are going to move really quickly.
but um well i think so i think the the the bit the slot fork as i like to call it by dacen ohm
uh is a really good example uh greaser he brought up the the vibe coded app by the pleb on cardano
i think firstly that there is nothing more dangerous than a vibe coding pleb the other day
you may recognize uh justin bachelor uh i don't know if you if you follow him but he said that
chad gdp 5.2 is a toyota camry and claude opus 4.5 is a porsche 911 gt3 rs and my i quotes with you
i said what you need to take away from this is that if you were planned that you have no business
driving a porsche 911 if you're in plan you need to stay away from flawed no vibe coding there
there's just too much there's too much that the plebs can break if they're they need to stick to
yes say toyota camry use chat gbt to to learn to learn and claude is for building in ed plebs are
not ready yeah i i mean it's it's a real issue of staying humble and stacking sats or slopping out
and vibing your code too much.
You know what they say if you vibe your code too much.
We've seen this massive shift.
You know, AI is kind of on the,
I don't think it's been hardly realized.
People are still experimenting with what to do with it
and how to integrate it into their lives and their businesses.
but uh you know one one thing that's clear is is many of the world's best software engineers
are too autistic to understand user experience but they they do know how to make secure systems
right this has been a constant challenge
the the plebs understand good ux and they demand good ux and they they will look at a secure
application they'll turn their nose up to it if they can't if the color scheme isn't right if if
it isn't you know because they're sitting there and they're on these applications just consuming
plebslop like they they have brain rot in their brains and if application doesn't make sense to
them they're they're going to uh and it's not easy they're not going to want to use it right uh
so you know there's this really real potential is that you've got all these unsecured wallets
with incredible UX and secure wallets with bad UX.
What is a way you think the Bitcoin ecosystem
can combat this and teach the autists good UX?
And like, is this what the whole spam debate
has been at its core?
Is that the core devs are too autistic
to give the plebs the UX that they want?
Wow, that's deep.
I mean, this sounds to me like the podcasters have to really help clarify.
I mean, because if not them, who else?
They need to help the plebs clear some of this up.
It's just the facts.
Not everyone's going to be able to read the code and verify it.
You need your kind of technical translator, let's say, that can translate from the code to the spoken language.
That's where the social code of Bitcoin lies, don't you think?
well potentially but i my question is and it is a real question to is open to both of you is
are we not learning that bad ux is the security feature if it has a good ux the plaz will be
farting around picking their voters using it looking at plenus lap on the app using the app
for whatever zapping that's why they love like wall is satoshi not a secure app they love ledger
not a secure it's all it could put those have great user experiences but something with a bad
user experience like um you know electrum or some would say sparrow or cold card or these more secure
time-tested systems they have bad ux and so hackers uh you bad actors they're not going to
take the time to to to sift through the headache of user experience that is required
uh to to exploit vulnerabilities they're going to go with a good ux the shiny lights where the
you know, the ADIQ plugs are just running around, you know,
with their freaking greasy tallow hair,
and they're just going to, it's like stealing candy from baby
because the good UX is a security flaw.
Yeah, I never thought about it that way.
I mean, you know, the ledgers and those type of hardware devices are pretty slick.
You know, you can wear them around your neck.
You can wear them on a hat.
and I think more people are getting held up with those.
It's true.
You know, this is the fine line that the people building have to carefully navigate,
and it does take years of experience to get the right approach.
The vibe coder doesn't necessarily have that, right?
And neither does the AI.
right if you're a builder an entrepreneur if you want to make money if you want to sell a lot of
you know hardware wallets you want to sell a lot of software licenses it has to have a good user
experience and bad security because not only does the value of your system the value of the product
you're making comes from it's i mean who are the first adopters of most new products anyway
uh hackers scammers the black market whatever it is and then if you really want to scale if you
really want to go public in and have a very successful business it has to be in so it has
to be back be able to be backed or by talent here or the government or like you know a pegasus
system otherwise you know what value does it have yeah man
you stumped them so tc are you familiar with uh this term called uh chat gpt psychosis
have you seen this um i believe so what's your version of it well i i started interacting with
my first case of somebody that I know personally,
or actually second case.
I've known a few people,
but they find that chat GPT will glaze them
no matter what they say and how outrageous it is.
And I almost wonder if Mike Brock
is suffering from chat GPT psychosis right now.
Like he displays a lot of the characterizations of it, which is just this complete disconnect from reality where they become consumed by the chat bot.
Like it's glazing him too much.
You're absolutely right, Brock.
That's brilliant, Brock.
Is this what you're talking about?
it is mike brought his a seams i have by 10 diagnose him seems kind of like a narcissist
and chad gbt is just glazing mike and and glazing his narcissism and feeding into his like
inflated sense of self-worth it i was do his um ui stream today a little bit till i get emergency
live stream or something and he just kept he he he was just the way he was talking he was just like
impressed with his himself and like his own word the word is vocabulary that he would use
and a he would like imagine his audience like what he what they must think about his writing
he's like folks you should get uh your media and your journalism and your information from more
sources i appreciate that um that you all find me so intelligent and and think that i'm the most
important source of um of information uh but you have to get it from other sources like mike i don't
think a single person has said that to you or like there's nobody in the comments saying that
It just like this crazy inflated self And I think Chad GTT feeds that yeah i mean it a real danger because what people may not be conscious of is they they really anthropomorphizing
this technology they they really take it to heart that it's a it's kind of a person there
and they develop relationships with it, and sometimes that can get out of hand.
Some people fall in love with chat, GPT.
Absolutely.
I mean, that can mess with people's heads in a variety of ways.
So I think this is a real concern just society-wide at this stage.
Have you seen personally any examples of this?
I mean, I've definitely seen a lot of people let the AI art go to their head.
I remember when you couldn't open up Twitter without getting just a whole feed full of AI sailor slop photos.
I mean, that was, I felt like a whole year.
That's all we were seeing.
And I know a lot of people lost their minds during that time.
Like, that's a fact.
That's the Genesis Pledslop, is the Sailor AIR.
Yeah, I think my favorite was when he is driving a race car
because he's talking about one of his products being a race car.
And he, of course, has no helmet in the picture.
And that was the irony for me.
And then there was, I remember the studio, Chip Leasoyer,
making like anime versions of themselves and people vives capital vives capital like they
ipo'd so to speak you know in the paper bitcoin summer early days off of those um off of those
anime pictures there there was like 70 people from vives capital
and they all had those that making the most skinny and and and and young did you did you do
one of those did you do one of the one of the studio ghiblis oh the studio ghibli ones i i had
to have done one or two i think i i told it to make my avatar into a studio ghibli type and
mixed results you know
actually that that one didn't bother me so much i i wouldn't mind if that that trend lasted longer
than some other other ai trends what is the one that you hate the most what's the one that drives
crazy and either you hope it goes away forever or you show but like nothing like that ever comes
back well i i'm already sick of what is the tap the the post to see four pictures stacked on top
of each other okay that's bad it's horrendous it's you can feel the brain cells dying every
time you see it.
So there is like, go ahead.
Sorry, I want to talk about Sailor Slop.
I'm scrolling his Twitter right now.
He's got a picture of him kicking a soccer ball.
It says Team Bitcoin.
And it has 17,000 likes.
Oh, just wait.
Isn't the World Cup coming up?
I expect a lot of Sailor soccer memes.
he's he's got he's got a picture of like an orange with the bitcoin logo cut into it
and it says eat real food and it has 13 000 likes made one day that's his uh that's his uh new hot
food pyramid meme didn't they just come out with the new food pyramid
see he's right on top of this he has an army of meme creators right because i notice he's tagging
or a lot of the pictures he takes in posts are from other people's posts.
So there's sort of a, it's like a little intern squad
of people generating these things for him.
You know, it actually kind of makes you wonder
what that's going to look like 10 years from now.
You know, the cult of sailor.
Right.
and i i don't think it's always been as obvious or maybe he just started tagging but he's always had
an army of uh like he's a plumb he's a little plumb slap interns and they always make him
you know look like a muscular super badass like alpha like superheroes soccer players
something like that but it's you're right it's like wherever is trending or like something very
in vogue uh in the pool water you know slop timeline uh he incorporates it and he's up right
on top of it like it's everywhere that they're like he said 13 000 like who yeah it makes you
wonder who's liking this someone should make a meme of sailor as the iranian woman who's like
lighting the cigarette but the photo's not the ayatollah it's like plebs and he's like lighting
the cigarette from the the picture i'm doing that right now you're welcome so one thing you mentioned
earlier is spaces you were going through your meditation your meditative journey of the podcasts
the conversations about the podcast on spaces and spaces used to be daily bitcoin spaces
a few years ago that used to be the hottest thing in town everybody was on there the rooms were huge
there were competing spaces some people called it well the outsiders like the whole the anti-social
meme gang autistic kids they called it the cartel the cartel was controlling spaces and it's it
seems like that community has tried it's it's shrunk very dramatically that's very small group
And it's not even really Bitcoin only lately.
And it's just a lot of angry plaids who have Joe Carlos, our derangement syndrome.
And they're trying to battle with him over tumorism versus optimism.
And that's like all that's left.
Like, am I wrong?
Am I missing something?
What was your experience on spaces?
And like, what's happened to it?
well bitcoin has itself gone on its own journey the last couple years
straying into wall street territory and a whole bunch of new people with a whole different
orientation have come in so naturally there's a whole shift in the focus of the spaces instead of
talking about how to run your node and how to optimize your coin control.
It's a lot more of discussion of the various flavored offerings
that are from Michael Saylor's taco stand
or all the whole buffet of ETFs and other derivatives.
I mean, there's a lot of people who sure do find a lot of stuff to talk about
that is just adjacent to Bitcoin at best and not even.
And so, yeah, I'd like to hear more about coin control in spaces.
I think the people that stuck around are all so familiar with one another
that there's just a lot of bullshitting going on most of the time.
And real Bitcoin discussion, it really is few and far between.
Um, it's just speaks to where we are.
I don't know.
I think that everybody's going to have reasons to care a little bit more about self-custody,
how to use Bitcoin correctly.
But so many people have so much more work to do to learn that stuff.
I don't know if space is the go-to place anymore for that.
the uh i think the information channels that people are interacting and learning
about bitcoin are changing i i just got on tiktok this week and i was shocked by how much content
is on there uh there's all these these separate
areas it seems like a lot of bitcoin people have kind of uh gone into self-exile on nostr
so there's like a group of individuals that have done that but uh
it sounds like what you're saying is there's been a group of people that were excited about
educating the uninitiated no-coiner plebs into becoming a full-coiner plebs.
And they kind of got bored with it.
Is that what you saw?
And then what has happened is the people that are excited about educating the no-coiner plebs
are trying to make sure that we have paper Bitcoin summer this upcoming year.
yeah a lot of that a lot of that's been going on um it's uh it reminds you you know
said by a lot of people it's not really a community is it but it felt like one right
yeah i think there's a there's a part of the journey where that's the
that's a natural thing because you discover all these new people and you,
you find some,
some,
uh,
some people that,
you know,
maybe don't think you're so crazy.
And,
uh,
it's natural to want to form a community with those people.
It's natural to be gravitated in that direction.
At a certain point,
uh,
a lot of people just have to,
uh,
do other stuff with their time.
But that's an interesting phenomenon to watch as well as we go forward.
I think that's going to be interesting to see what that looks like a few years from now.
Because I think you have a lot of plebs still trying to find the signal.
There is an awful lot of noise.
But again, you know, everyone's just trying to find that signal.
I'm trying to put a little signal of my own
And I think that's what a handful of people are still interested in
But I think you're going to see a resurgence of it
You know, the real catalyst for all of that is number go up
So I think the next time we really pump
You get some new life
You get some new energy
you get some new people coming in and the people that are there get a little lift in their step
so every everybody likes to debate about the cycles you know marty bent called it he said
this time was different it has been very different in a lot of ways uh i think it's been different
than you know how marty anticipated it because his macro takes are kind of on par with just the
average pleb out there but um what do you think's gonna lead to the pump is it where i think we all
know the god announcement has to predate the uh the god candle david bailey was uh you know trying
to pull off the god announcement you know multiple times by um you know really trying to cater to
Donald Trump, he failed over and over again.
He just, God did not shine his light fondly on David Bailey.
What do you think the God announcement will be that will lead to the God candle?
I think you're going to have to wait for one of these big tech companies to make a big splash.
or one of these big, powerful nations in the world making a big splash.
But I don't think we're going to see that in the next couple of years.
I think it's really, it's one of these things where don't you think the max pain
is kind of just crabby, choppy sideways, slight drift upward over the next couple of years.
and all the people who think it's going to go to the moon kind of lose it
and all the people that think that it's going to crash out lose it.
I think that's kind of the most ironic and appropriate outcome
for the end of the four-year cycle expectation
because that sure seems like what we've got.
We ended up with green, green, red instead of green, green, green.
And so just based on that alone.
but at the same time I look at look at what we've got we've got this beautiful crab market
that is just the perfect answer to both the bulls and the bears and anyone who's expecting
too much too quickly I think is going to be disappointed
the crab market makes the bulls and the bears both incredibly grumpy and they're just crash
out less than right on the timeline. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. I think that's
something I got used to last year. Last year was a very crabby year. And you witnessed everyone get
sort of ahead of their skis. The bears got way ahead of their skis. The bulls got ahead of their
skis and and and now everyone's gonna continue to wait high anxiety every time we move up every
time we move down you're gonna get the same fake outs it's an emotional roller coaster again people
should be staring at podcasts instead of the price chart or time chain calendar either would be
acceptable a lot of a lot of opportunity to meditate um yeah i mean it's i think one of the
challenges so it seems like crash outs are happening all-time highs everywhere not just in this uh
bubble of the world where people talk about internet money but you know outside of this
little bubble people are crashing out left and right just nosedives they are not prepared
for the fourth turning do you feel like you've prepared how have you prepared to handle the chaos
and how are you maintaining your your sanity without crashing out on a day-to-day basis
well I
try to
focus on
the people that matter most
my family
but
as far as the fourth
turning
this is
something we
we don't know what exactly
is going to occur
and you can prepare
you can
And you can acquire firearms and water filters and gas masks and stores of food.
And, you know, you could have any of these things or all of them.
You could learn how to grow your own food.
I mean, that is the mission after all, right?
Self-sufficiency and sovereignty in uncertain times.
But, you know, my perspective tells me that people have been feeling this kind of dread and uncertainty
In nearly every generation before us
So that's part of the experience too, you know
At a certain point, you have to be a man and face whatever cards you're dealt.
So I think that's the calling of Bitcoin,
is to prepare your mind and orient towards sovereignty
and try to create as many solutions for potential uncertainties as you can,
knowing that the future is chaotic and uncertain.
it's a beautiful thing to meditate on so part of the reason for all the crash outs part of the
reason for all the anxiety part of the reason for all the dread is at least you know i think
due to all of the situations that everybody has to monitor and then you know for some people it's
It's just all the situations they are monitoring.
Like, it's just nonstop.
Seems like bad news, scary news.
You know, what were the implications and consequences?
It's like these situations are accelerating.
But it begs the question, is monitoring the situation meditating?
I don't know if that's true for everyone.
I think sometimes monitoring the situation can create a lot of dissonance and a lot of noise and drive you crazy in an undesirable way.
I think again that's the call to the signal
To counteract the noise or cut through the noise
Because everyone can only handle so much
It's just like all the market expectations that drive people crazy
I think most of the crash outs we see are simply because
People make bad decisions in their trading
and they end up on the wrong side of things
and they become hopeless and crash out.
You've got to learn that hodling your Bitcoin
is the answer to all that stress, right?
You've got to learn that you can't time the market.
You have to hang on and gain the conviction.
I say it all the time.
Your knowledge is really the corollary to your conviction.
And that's why you got to watch your 40 hours.
That's why you have to study.
You've got to focus on the signal.
You've got to stay focused so that you can learn what you need to learn
and gain your conviction and withstand these uncertain times
and not crash out and then then you're gonna make it the you know you've mentioned like the
people who make bad trading decisions and you you talked about spaces already it seems like you
interact with more often and maybe you're more far into the world or they cease to be
like with these traders but the people who think that they are clever they think they've got
a good idea they've been probably getting glazed by shaggy pt and they're going in putting too much
money into a paper bitcoin treasury company or a bitcoin miner and they're trading the momentum
and then this goes bad quickly or it's handled bad quickly sometimes and um it's causing them to
crash out so i don't know about richard but like in my experience like my interactions i am more
talking to and like interacting with people who they're not really traitors they they they did
take the advice that you gave which is you know listen to podcasts stay humble stacks ads
dame the information the conviction and they did they do they didn't do that um and they thought
that because they did that because they did the right thing or they followed the the
the template that you laid out they thought that after water two side holes if they did that
they're like it's gonna be great they're gonna be wealthy they're gonna be able to buy chairs again
they're gonna be able to go on carvana and buy their car back that they sold for sets at the top
in 2021 they thought that uh they're gonna have way more time and they're gonna be able to still
They afford a house even though they said the real estate was a shit coin on Spaces or Twitter the years prior And they take out to where they are now And they not Their wives are not all their problems are fixed and they not as happy as they thought they would be
And they ask why they're crashing now.
Is this just a, is this a lower your time preference scenario, or is this a deeper problem?
I mean, you can never lower your time preference enough.
All these forces are causing you to have a higher time preference
And get more anxiety and greater expectations
And that's the root of all the problems
You know, I think it's a real important counterbalance
To keep yourself sane, to keep it simple
And stay humble and stack sets
That's really the only way to go.
The treasury company thing is just an outrageous gamble.
And somehow that got sort of accepted for a summer as the way to go to accelerate and amplify your Bitcoin ascent.
And a lot of people got wrecked.
and they fucked around and they found out they learned the hard way again,
this is the journey.
It's stepping off of that path and stepping onto a path of focus and patience
and, you know, filling your time with learning and your 40 hours.
well you know like to be fair about paper bitcoin there are a lot of people out there that are just
paper people in general like they like they like paper assets all the assets they own are paper
essentially they have paper dollars they've got paper um stocks they've got you know they like to
trade the paper gold and silver stocks, you know, they come into the Bitcoin world and they
start hearing about paper Bitcoin. They're like, wow, paper Bitcoin fixes paper assets.
And like a lot of Bitcoin people that historically have gotten very excited about it, you know,
they're more like a hard asset type people. Like they like their sovereignty, they're a little bit
more predisposed.
But the paper Bitcoin people,
they like to have their hand held for them
to a certain degree.
They're just, they're cut from a different cloth.
Yeah, but they got wrecked.
But that's...
Not the pipe investors.
I mean, you know, I mean,
like we unfortunately have, you know,
at least seven, eight months or a year
of history to look at now.
And some of these things have just imploded and they've been, you know, it's fine if your orientation is towards paper.
But I think it's hard to ignore the results at this point.
And what of the broken promise?
I mean, it's great if the paper solves the problem that the Bitcoin solves, but the paper doesn't solve that problem.
And I think they were able to sort of spin that narrative.
I don't know if that works anymore.
I think we would have to see a whole paper spring revival in order to reassess that.
I think it's pretty nuked at this point, isn't it?
But why are you criticizing companies that are buying Bitcoin and not the ones that don't?
oh i don't get me wrong i'm not criticizing the companies that buy bitcoin i i just think that
it's kind of silly to buy the stocks of those companies so you know that's that's where where
plebs get burned boys you know this is what the plebs need to learn right is and one of my my
a.i. swap hit songs this summer was uh was called paper made men and it is
plebs are are following people like michael saylor people like david daly um who are paper made men
they are they have achieved the status the wealth the power everything that they've got today
um paper games through uh paper assets and trading paper uh cooking the books um
you do paper this paper that paper over the problems um in so vets like that is it worked
for them to a certain extent they they obviously you know sales billionaires got the most bitcoin
as anybody. The plebs were like,
I'm going to follow that same path.
Instead of glazing their own trail,
becoming pioneers,
they tried to follow in the footsteps
of paper-made men,
and they are
finding out that they're just not cut
from, you know, they're just not cut out
to be paper-made men themselves.
And they
laid you in the work of that.
How many of those people do you think are going to
How many of those men do you think
are going to find their way to
to learning coin control and running a note
none of them they usually crash out or get rug pulled and go broke before they ever get to that
point they're they're just paper plebs at the end they they prefer the paper assets over real
hard assets because their responsibility comes with it they don't have to learn coin control
they don't have to worry about oh i gotta consolidate my utxos they don't have to worry
about oh do i run knots or do i run core i think glory is hot but i think spam is bad i have to
make a decision here oh great i downloaded core v30 and now if i don't up you know i i might lose
i might lose my wallet it's just so it's scary it's a lot of responsibility it's a lot of personal
responsibility it's a lot of self-awareness required it's got to understand your
cognitive and uh your abilities to to solve the and navigate the terrible ux of any secure system
but we talked about earlier uh you gotta worry about privacy you gotta worry about i mean the
list goes on with paper bitcoin you just gotta go on the robin headed search for nstr and then hit
Bye.
Yeah, I mean, it's compelling.
That's some pretty good UX.
But I mean, it's where I wonder if the paper Bitcoin is a threat to Bitcoin
because how many of these paper plebs are going to get wrecked
and then leave Bitcoin altogether
where if we didn't have the paper Bitcoin,
those people might have found real Bitcoin instead
and not gotten wrecked.
Well, this is why Albus Huxley's Brave New World
is such a good book, right?
Because the way Orwellian totalitarian control
comes into existence is through good UX,
through convenience, through pleasure.
and the paper Bitcoin is the good UX.
Yeah.
It's the Soma, right?
Paper Bitcoin is the Soma.
But maybe you asked a question that makes me wonder
if paper Bitcoin is a, what you say, a threat for Bitcoin.
And I think there's a compelling argument for or against that being true or not.
But it kind of really depends on the framing of the conversation.
If you were to say that, you think it might be a threat.
But how do you define a threat to what?
A threat to Bitcoin?
A threat to Bitcoiners?
We used to say that the shit coins would, you know, take people away from, take a certain number of eyeballs away from Bitcoin.
that if the shit coins weren't around,
there would be more participants in the Bitcoin space.
So now, maybe especially after a year of a crab market,
we can look back and we can say,
okay, this overlaps with the paper Bitcoin summer.
And is it possible that the paper Bitcoin summer
is partly to blame for the crab market
and that the price of Bitcoin,
which is determined by people buying and selling
on order books and exchanges,
it's not the treasury companies buying over the counter,
that maybe there's a correlation there.
And so it's not that it's a threat.
it's just put it on the giant pile of things that are an attack on bitcoin you know distraction
it's a distraction i mean the honey badger doesn't really care but
we'll add that realist of attacks on bitcoin so it's it's almost like the way that i'll hear
people describe it because people will argue with you and they'll say well no that's not the reason
for the crab market or it's the reason that the the volatility to the downside wasn't worse this
time around is because of paper bitcoin and it sounds it is remind me of the people who
were big uh you know they bought into the hype and they were big advocates for the
the jab and then when it turned out to be a big nothing burger it didn't really give us
It was at best worthless, at worst, very, very harmful.
But they'll say, well, you know, if I got the booster, so it means I didn't die.
It could have been worse.
And it's like they say that all paid for Bitcoin prevented the downside from being worse because there were so many treasury companies just buying every single thing.
I'm not going to discount that theory.
I think that's actually a pretty compelling theory.
Crab market it is.
Max Payne, I told you guys.
We need more crab market memes,
and we need to be talking more about coin control.
We're just in a very different economic time
than I think we've been in Bitcoin's history,
where I don't think the plebs have ever been
in our lifetimes in a rougher spot.
Like they had to make the decision, many of them, this Christmas
on whether they were going to buy Christmas presents
or they were going to be able to afford their taxes.
And that was a pretty tough decision, you know, that many of the plebs made.
Like they are not sitting around, you know, bored, smash buying,
posting their stack chain posts anymore
because they're slaving away.
Some of them are driving Uber after working
eight, nine hours a day
to be able to afford their taxes.
It's a very different economic time for sure.
Well, it's undoubtedly
your dollar buys you less Bitcoin now.
So you can stack less.
and the cost of living is relentless.
It just keeps going.
I don't even want to tell you how much I paid per pound for my ribeye last time.
You know, it's brutal out here in California.
But basically, you got to do what you got to do.
Some people got to, you know, drive the Ubers,
and other people are vibe coding,
trying to strike it rich with a vibe coded app.
It's tough times.
So you're right.
I think this is new territory for a lot of people.
I think that we're going to be going into a worse economy.
So buckle up.
Stay humble, buckle up.
well you know the plebs are going to have to figure out so you know we're really on this
precipice i think of self-driving vehicles becoming proliferated like you already see
the waymos driving around in certain places uh it you know what are they going to do if you know
they get off work they've been working full time
they can't drive uber anymore because they have a self-driving car doing it like how are they going
to afford their taxes and what's going to be the fallout of this.
What are the plebs going to do?
They're probably not going to listen to Bitcoin podcasts.
They just bought their paper Bitcoin.
Paper Bitcoin summer ends next summer with just like a, just a collapse into paper Bitcoin
fall and winter.
What are the plebs going to do?
clearly i think it's about prediction markets i think prediction markets are the next attack
on bitcoin podcasts and uh that's what about prediction markets built on bitcoin
well let's see it i mean
greetings you you've got to uh no kyc you've got to just ask claude code nicely
well i'm saying one one exists yeah i i think the the the um
the prediction markets are like the best thing that would ever could ever happen to podcasters
and podcasting they're gonna sponsor they're gonna sponsor a lot of podcast
Yeah. Well, it's it's not even about them sponsoring podcasts. It's the podcasters using them because the podcasters that actually have signal and actually know what's going on in the world.
Are going to be able to make money off of these prediction markets, right?
All their macro insights that they got, they're going to apply it to actual bets.
And so instead of needing a KYC Bitcoin exchange to sponsor you, you kind of earn money by actually having alpha, right?
Like betting over under how many times coin control is mentioned in the podcast?
That could be one of them.
It used to be the Nancy Pelosi, Congress senators.
They had the inside information, the privileged position to be able to insider trade, and they've made fortunes off of it.
if you listen 40 hours per week you can it feels you you feel like you could predict the future
because you start to see things form and happen and you're like oh i i know how this is going to
play out and so now podcasters and podcast listeners are able to inside trade and use
prediction markets to to make money because they marvel the situation so intently that they know
everything that's going on and they're just absolutely front around the plaids like e
creations who were just out there throwing money on the prediction markets just making bets off of
vibes and and and feelings and they're just getting absolutely taken to take it in the
woodshed by podcast listeners yeah and that's all that's all uh it's less money going towards
sats, I'll tell you that. No, it's incredible. I mean, isn't this like Max Kaiser's casino gulag he
was always talking about? Isn't that kind of something? Like this is sort of coming together
where people are going to have the digital ID and the digital money, the CBDC, Tether, whatever it is,
and then their life through their little AI assistant is going to be gamified. So they're
basically like earning little points to buy their their their rations for the day or whatever
and the whole system's gonna orient around see this is what to me this is what this is where
we're headed i mean am i way off no no tp on because i think that is i think that's
and there's an element there but the i mean you say that it'll take money away from bitcoin but
it's like what if you trade prediction markets to earn more bitcoin i see it cross-pollinating with
the point of view life kind of content creation that we see.
So people are already sharing so much of their life with other people
through video and audio and streaming and all this stuff.
So then that can easily tie in with all these other streams of data
and you're gamifying it and you're earning your UBI
or maybe you're taking your UBI and you're leveraging it and gambling with it
so you could get a whole bunch more if you win or you get wrecked if you lose
and everyone's kind of living their day that way.
And then most people don't have to have jobs.
they're doing tasks or fulfilling certain quotas of activity online.
And then that's all monetized.
And that's what the future economy looks like.
Like people's full-time jobs will be doing the Coinbase courses
to learn about the different cryptocurrencies that Coinbase is trying to show.
Exactly. You could see plebs doing coin control workshops
and, you know, could do all kinds of neat stuff like that.
You'd be learning about SushiSwap on Coinbase or whatever it is.
You could replace Social Security with prediction markets, polymarket.
I see life insurance coming into play here somewhere too.
Watch out.
person well we we had this prediction uh a while ago that they were going to when they eliminate
social security when they decide to do that what they're going to do is i think michael dell was
kind of hinting at this with his program what they're going to do is they're going to issue
instead of issuing everybody's social security number they're going to issue everybody a meme
coin right and so their their retirement is going to ultimately be on based on the value of their
own unique meme coin that is issued to them and so you know you you increase the value of your
meme coin through via virality and online engagement so there's like a direct it's kind
It's kind of like government issued BitClap, essentially.
Yeah, you're trying to become like Mr. Beast so you can retire.
Yeah, exactly.
And the engagement is monetized.
So there's a feedback loop there that everyone gets plugged into.
And of course, you're going to have, you know, 10 or 20 percent of people thrive in that system.
And everybody else is going to be treading water or getting completely wrecked.
Because that feedback loop works both directions.
It could be a negative incentive driver too.
Is the getting wrecked, is that just relative to other people?
Or do you think things are going to be substantially improving for the broader population like they have over the last 500 years due to advances in technology?
or we kind of plateaued in that regard no no we peaked in like probably 1999 you know it's been
all downhill for a while and uh you guys you guys notice this it's the slopification of everything
right we we're we're we're in a society with higher and higher time preference
with a shorter attention span and living less healthy
and participating in a system that's stealing from us constantly.
And you see the whole society kind of unwinding.
I think it gets a lot weirder from here before it bottoms out and gets better.
So you're going to see more people incentivized
to have a higher and higher time preference which makes them behave in a more and more risky way i do believe that i think that that a bit predictable because of human nature so i think it gets weirder and sloppier
um for for a bit longer i don't think we've bottomed yet
how so yeah i the sloth tsunami there's still waves of that coming
so that means that the the future that our destiny whatever it is um is is either going to be
permanently slopped it's like noah's art the globe is going to be flooded with slop
perhaps forever or we're going to clean up the slop and we're going to get we're going to get
focused again we're going to lock in again we're going to get a patient we're gonna
optimize our time preference optimize our uh incentives i mean let's see we have to do that
to survive so do you see any tool any technology any hope that things will get less sloppy any time
soon well there it is again you gotta you gotta follow the signal for that right because if you
just open your eyes enough and you study enough you watch enough hours of podcasts
you start living different.
I think it's something everyone who's involved with Bitcoin for enough time,
once you go down the rabbit hole and some years start passing,
you notice yourself change.
And you change in a variety of ways.
And you start living better.
So that's what you can do to elevate yourself from slop,
is you have to become better at perceiving it and avoiding it.
and identifying the signal and moving closer to that instead.
Everyone else, I don't know.
I think a lot of people aren't going to make it.
So what do you think the feds experience,
the ones that have been sent to infiltrate and either monitor or, you know,
influence or disrupt this ecosystem?
Like, you know, they have to listen to the podcast too, right?
They have to go to the meetups.
they have to you know go to the conferences and they have all these interactions and they're
hanging out talking with the plebs about you know whatever they you know heard on podcasts they're
being exposed to this information do you think that it's influencing them in the same ways
or are they not reaping the benefits of just like a good natured like interested curious individual
Yeah, I think it's inevitable that a lot of individuals that work with the feds or work with various government agencies, I think they are going to over time realize the strengths of Bitcoin and what it can do, the superpowers that it grants those that actually hold their own keys.
That's something that we all learn along our journey.
So I imagine people in those agencies are going to individually discover those things. And one day there will be enough individuals that sway the perspective of the whole institution. And that's when we're in hyper-Bitcoinization, as they used to call it.
yeah i mean i don't know i mean i feel like there's a certain type of personality and
persuasion that that a lot of these these feds have which is they're they're so loyal
to the system and i think it's just like there's a minority of ones that
that kind of break out of that um like i almost wonder if they're going to be more directed
like maybe what paper Bitcoin's really an attack on is us orange pilling the
feds at the end of the day is because,
you know,
paper Bitcoin is the solution to having all these defects or all these feds
defecting from the system and becoming based Citadel running Giga Chad
pioneers.
Yeah, I just look at it as a new technology.
It's, you know, you go back enough decades and we didn't have email everywhere and it was just a small number of people using it.
And a lot of people didn't see what the big deal was and why they should care.
And then the advantages that that technology brought, eventually people discovered their need for it.
So I see Bitcoin in the same kind of way. We're living in times where there's big changes with the monetary global order and Bitcoin is becoming more relevant.
And so maybe it's a faraway thing, but I do think eventually everyone discovers the obvious advantages of the technology and are going to find their own selfish reasons for using it.
Well, what's got you excited, TC?
What's got me excited is all of the fun new things happening in Bitcoin over the last year or so.
I tend to pay attention to the evolution of Bitcoin's layers.
I really like all the eCash stuff.
I'm interested in ARK.
I like Lightning a lot.
So all that's got me excited.
And I'm excited because it's a new year.
Another chance to fire up a new exercise routine and dig in and build.
You still doing 100 push-ups until 100K?
Of course.
Did you stop after we went above 100K?
Yeah, I stopped and then I started again.
But it's good for you.
I recommend it.
All plebs should do that.
Absolutely.
And people know you for the time chain calendar.
And you've got new things coming.
You've got some exciting announcements that you'll be making soon.
but if maybe you already know about it maybe you've never heard the time chain calendar
instead of explaining the concept of it i think people should go and see it for themselves and
just take the time take the time to meditate on on the time chain calendar and look at the design
But can you explain why are you putting so much of your time into building this?
Why are you putting so much of your time into expanding this and to bringing it to more people?
What is so special about a calendar that documents each block that gets mined for Bitcoin?
What is that that fascinates you?
and why are you so interested in that?
Two words, Rod.
It's Bitcoin awareness.
That's what this is about.
This is about Bitcoin awareness.
You know, you see the big number on your screen,
the latest block that's been added to the chain.
That's where you are.
that's when you are in relation to Bitcoin.
So I draw these circles on your screen
to give you a focus,
to give you that signal,
your Bitcoin awareness.
When the block changes,
you're not going to miss it.
You get a big animation
making sure that you are aware
that a new block came.
And that's it.
It's what it's all about.
Bitcoin awareness.
I'm interested in fostering that in people.
I think if more people are aware of Bitcoin, they will all be benefited from it.
Awareness of Bitcoin and awareness of, like you said, like those maps where you go into a mall and it's got to a map.
It says you are here.
and so you go the you look at the you look at bitcoin you look at representation
with all of its history all of its data all of its uh time all of the compressed time
into the system and you are here this is a reference point for where you are in relation
to every block that came before it every block that's going to come after it but right now
be aware of what's here right in front of you.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of mind-blowing.
Bitcoin just had its 17th birthday.
You know, that's...
It's almost too old for Prince Andrew.
That's less than half of my life.
But I think as I watch a block hit right there
when I'm speaking,
I find it really amazing to start paying attention to Bitcoin these last several years.
And like I said, it changes you.
It absolutely causes you to change as a person.
And I think it's important for people to pay attention to Bitcoin itself.
So if I can draw some circles on your screen and help you see it, then I feel like I've done my job.
Have you ever thought about putting tits on your website?
Of course.
There is a very simple version one function on there for customizing the interface.
And it does let you put a picture into the interface.
I'll teach you guys how to do it it's pretty fun uh maybe after the show but um I'm gonna update
that and make it a little bit easier to access for anyone and and you are welcome to put tits
on your time chain calendar that's that's something I actually encourage you to customize it that way
well if if there's one thing that brings awareness to to like a brand or an idea it's tits
when Sidney Sweeney has proved this very clearly over the in 2025.
People will be aware of the time chain calendar if they can see those on there.
Yeah, for sure.
I'm going to have to try that.
I'll get back to you.
Do we have found those to go through on this one?
Yeah, we had a couple from your episode with Rob Wallace.
Right.
uh let me pull those up so what we normally do tc is we uh we read the the boosts from the prior
episodes so like we do the view weekly that's every week but behind the podcast series is uh
not quite as frequent although we try to do it as much as possible uh but we have to get an
interview the last one was december 18th um and it was brock wallace from bitcoinnews.com
behind the podcast episode 28 and we talked about how the world is a podcast and i think
we we kind of covered this uh at the beginning of the episode where it was like um you're
meditating and if you're meditating on the podcast eventually you're it's like you wake up and this
the world transformed and you're now living in a podcast and we we got into the discussion kind of
what that means um i don't know if you're rob a good dude bitcoin news is uh you know fellow
journalist um so that with that context the uh the first basis from the google itself so that
Must have been registered.
11,000 sats.
Fire.
And the second one was from Bitcoin News.
The other guest on the show.
2,000 sats.
Fire.
And then...
The first one from a fan, Sasha.
Sasha Hodder, the crypto attorney.
In Florida, we just went on her show,
The Sunset Circuit.
It was a good conversation.
We answered legal questions,
although we do not have legal credentials.
Sasha Bissett vows us at
Shinobi would win
against the Bottle Kids.
TC, do you ever watch
Trailer Park Boys?
Do you know what Bottle Kids are?
No, I'm sorry, I don't.
In this show, Trailer Park Boys,
the Bottle Kids
are like little plants
who run around the Trailer Park
and they're not part of every episode.
But sometimes
Ray G., the main character,
will pay them or they'll do it on their own and they go around they collect old beer can or
you know beer bottles old glass bottles and they put them in a bunch of them in a bag and then they
they ambush somebody in the park and they just hurl these glass bottles at them and they
hurl them at their car they're a menace to the trailer park um but so sasha's saying that uh
shinobi would probably need a run through the trailer park and uh be able to avoid getting
hit by the bottle kids.
Now the question I have
in mind is
who is Bitcoin's bottle kids?
Used to be
Triple E memes.
Those guys still
come to mind.
Mr. HODL's
probably hanging out with the bottle kids.
Yeah, I mean
I think it depends who you're
asking. There's a lot of
infighting in Bitcoin right now so
depending which camp you ask.
um you know some might think mr hoddle and and and wicked are the bottle kids
well yeah there's like rival gangs of bottle kids they all go and fight each other so you
got mr hoddle wicked and you've got tomer and um canoe and uh mars raybon yeah mars raybon
there's a lot of bio kids out there for sure uh the next one's 500 sas from user 22290668
you're either born for the slap or you're born to stop bone for the slap
so true last two pies and ptc on board boosted 121 100 sas respectively with fair
signature emoji salads.
Thank you guys.
So, you know, my final question for you, TC,
do you think Jessica Vaughn is Bitcoin's Sydney Sweeney?
What happened to her?
I feel like I haven't seen her anywhere on Twitter in a year or more.
Is she gone?
she's she's still around she's still hot believe it or not yeah yeah i'd buy that
we're gonna try and get around here and talk to her talk to her about
to see what she's been doing for the past year probably being hot
that's right well you got any oh good you got any closing thoughts before we wrap this
know you oh yeah i was gonna say um i just like the one thing in there is that her is like most
most super hot models pretty happy she's like one of the grumpier she's always seems grumpy or maybe
she's comes across as grumpy and it's fun to life she's grumpy if you're hot you should be happy um
my final thoughts and i don't know i guess i have my final thought is just to get
tc you get your opinion is
you get annoyed by club slop you admit that it's going to be harder to focus on the signal
because it's going to be a very sloppy future at least in the short to medium term but
are do you or have you found or come to accept and find peace with the slot or do you think that
You know, that's something you're trying to.
You're trying to find peace among the slop.
And do you think this is the goal of everybody,
to try to find some peace amidst the slop?
I mean, well, you gotta, you gotta at some point.
It's a slop world.
We're just living in it.
And one way to look at it is the slop is sometimes necessary,
especially for new folks.
It's kind of like when you're learning Bitcoin
and everything is sort of a meme.
Everything's a very simple concept.
And then as you're in Bitcoin longer,
things get more complicated.
Sometimes you have to heavily modify the meme
or really upgrade it and make it much more sophisticated.
Sometimes you have to throw out the memes entirely.
So I think the slop has its place, I think, especially for new folks.
And I can be at peace with that.
I can live with a world that has that included.
It's a slop-eat-slop world.
Just find space.
Thanks for listening.
Headphones on and volume up.
I came for the money, I came for the gains.
I wanted a Lambo and side chicks on planes.
But after a while, my MPC brain became obsessed with the immutable chain.
40 hours per week.
40 hours I see.
40 hours per week
40 hours I seek
And that's just the start
Difficulty adjustment
Turned my world upside down
Then breed love and sailor dropped
A track called thermodynamically sound
Before I could notice my path had been set
I was orange-pilled so hard
I was a national security threat
40 hours per week
40 hours I seek
40 hours per week
40 hours I see
And that's just a start
Now I'm in the podcast studio
Two days a week
I haven't missed a meetup
In 21 weeks
Now I pick the conference over my own wedding
I'm so far down the rabbit hole, I don't see it ending
40 hours per week
40 hours I see
40 hours per week
40 hours I seek
And that's just the start