1
00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,200
Folks, welcome back to Behind the Podcast.

2
00:00:04,700 --> 00:00:06,120
It's been a little bit.

3
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:11,460
The last person we interviewed on the show was Stu, but we're back.

4
00:00:12,020 --> 00:00:14,020
We're coming back with a bang.

5
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,540
Today, joining us is a man who you probably know.

6
00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:18,740
Another shit coiner.

7
00:00:19,460 --> 00:00:20,460
Another shit coiner.

8
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,700
If you don't know him, you should become familiar with him.

9
00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:29,840
he's oftentimes uh you know he he's the guy that you know comes out with ideas

10
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:35,980
like five or six years in advance before anybody starts talking about them and taking them

11
00:00:35,980 --> 00:00:46,900
seriously he uh kind of i think he's a lot more uh grounded in reality than mike brock

12
00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:55,800
uh mike brock refers to himself as a reluctant cassandra but paul sports truly is a reluctant

13
00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:03,080
cassandra in a lot of ways uh paul sports how you doing today what do you got going on

14
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:10,300
i'm doing great guys hey thanks for having me that was i mean that was a good introduction

15
00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:16,100
for paul sports but can i don't know exactly how to introduce you or like how do how do you

16
00:01:16,100 --> 00:01:22,260
explain uh your involvement in bitcoin like what what your journey's been because you're you've

17
00:01:22,260 --> 00:01:28,340
been around for a while and you've been pretty close to um the industry like what are you working

18
00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:34,460
on now and like how did you get to this point well yeah now i work on this thing drive chain which is

19
00:01:34,460 --> 00:01:41,620
like the only real implementation of the sidechain idea which is itself was a pretty old and

20
00:01:41,620 --> 00:01:47,260
revolutionary idea that today that word is, you know, it's come to mean all the kinds of different

21
00:01:47,260 --> 00:01:54,640
things that are useless. But the original idea was that you would be able to send Bitcoin to

22
00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,780
other pieces of software and back. And so that in that way, you'd just be able to have like basically

23
00:01:59,780 --> 00:02:04,200
something that does what Ethereum does, but with Bitcoin or something that does what Zcash does,

24
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:10,980
but with Bitcoin. And I think this idea is, you know, much better than every other idea in Bitcoin.

25
00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:12,120
It's much better than Lightning.

26
00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:14,040
It's much better than Covenants.

27
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,740
It's much better than just working on another hardware wallet.

28
00:02:17,180 --> 00:02:18,760
It's much better than just whatever.

29
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,140
I don't know, you know, whatever everyone else is doing.

30
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,220
So I thought this was a really important idea.

31
00:02:24,220 --> 00:02:25,860
And so I work on that now.

32
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,100
When did you come up with this?

33
00:02:28,180 --> 00:02:33,980
When did you start developing this protocol, this new layer?

34
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,800
Yeah, I was originally interested in prediction markets back in the day.

35
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,220
and I designed a whole prediction markets on Bitcoin thing

36
00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:48,040
that was called Truthcoin, and that was back in 2013, 2014.

37
00:02:48,780 --> 00:02:51,460
And then it came time to attach it to Bitcoin,

38
00:02:51,460 --> 00:02:53,520
and Blockstream, this company, had come out,

39
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,940
and they had to come up with this sidechain idea.

40
00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,860
And so I wanted to look into what they were doing,

41
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,700
but the truth was that they really weren't doing that very much

42
00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:05,600
with the sidechain idea.

43
00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:08,260
So they didn't really have anything that you could use

44
00:03:08,260 --> 00:03:11,720
to attach the prediction market thing to Bitcoin.

45
00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:14,860
And then everyone got distracted with the scaling more.

46
00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:16,160
This was like 2015 or something.

47
00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:18,940
But I published this DriveChain post in November 2015.

48
00:03:19,940 --> 00:03:21,000
So it's been 10 years.

49
00:03:21,540 --> 00:03:28,180
And I didn't really work on the sidechain's idea for a while.

50
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,300
But eventually, as I grew frustrated with all kinds of things

51
00:03:33,300 --> 00:03:37,720
that were happening in Bitcoin, I decided to pick it up again.

52
00:03:38,260 --> 00:03:48,840
And so that's why I work on it now, kind of out of obligation to finish it, even though it is also like a fantastic idea that would bring privacy to Bitcoin.

53
00:03:49,100 --> 00:03:50,740
It would bring scalability to Bitcoin.

54
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:59,040
It would bring extensibility to let you just change Bitcoin, move it to an L2 where you can make it whatever you want and then send it back.

55
00:03:59,040 --> 00:03:59,940
So this is the greatest thing.

56
00:04:00,020 --> 00:04:07,640
If you want to ossify L1, this is the best idea because now it's easier to actually ossify L1 in like a credible way.

57
00:04:08,260 --> 00:04:11,700
and a sustainable way when you say, well, actually we have those L2s

58
00:04:11,700 --> 00:04:15,520
where you can be a playground to do whatever you want.

59
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,520
And so it does all this great stuff.

60
00:04:18,620 --> 00:04:19,440
It fixes governance.

61
00:04:19,780 --> 00:04:23,100
All these people today are debating overall which soft fork should we have

62
00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,360
and which soft fork should we have next or should we have any

63
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,060
or should we have none or what do we do about this?

64
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,060
But all these questions about both the soft fork and the hard fork are resolved

65
00:04:33,060 --> 00:04:36,360
if you just say the L2 can do whatever.

66
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,980
ever so it's pretty important idea but uh for some reason and a lot of people agree with me too

67
00:04:40,980 --> 00:04:45,700
that's the thing is i'm like seen as like a fringe character by many but i'm also seen as

68
00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:54,380
extremely popular person among like super uh many elite type people uh you can go to the

69
00:04:54,380 --> 00:04:59,380
layer2labs.com slash friends list i like collected a bunch of like quotes and stuff from people who

70
00:04:59,380 --> 00:05:04,440
agree so it's kind of a bizarre situation to be in but the all the answers are i've got all the

71
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:09,820
answers to explain how the situation seems bizarre, but I know exactly why it's bizarre.

72
00:05:10,060 --> 00:05:17,560
And it has to do with just culture of Bitcoin and the history of the block size war and with

73
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:24,680
dysfunctional bureaucracy in Bitcoin core and stuff like that. So I think it's pretty

74
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:30,160
interesting, the situation that I'm in. It definitely interests me. But yeah, if you want

75
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,500
to make sense of the Bitcoin world, there are a lot of illusions that have to be pierced, I think.

76
00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:41,260
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the challenges that, you know, Rod and I were talking, Rod

77
00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:47,360
pointed out that Aaron Redwing does a really good job of translating the things that you're

78
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:54,900
talking about. So what you just described is you don't connect with the plebs. And one of the

79
00:05:54,900 --> 00:06:01,340
reasons why you don't connect with the plebs is because you don't speak in plebslop you you speak

80
00:06:01,340 --> 00:06:07,840
in you know a technical manner that takes a lot of context that you're not going to be able to

81
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:13,180
understand from having just watched simply bitcoin videos you're going to have to dive a little bit

82
00:06:13,180 --> 00:06:18,900
deeper you're probably having to spend some time on github to understand some of the language maybe

83
00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:27,100
read mastering Bitcoin, uh, and you, you know, did a lot of digging now, you know, I don't want

84
00:06:27,100 --> 00:06:32,900
the plebs to turn off this interview, even though this podcast isn't really, you know, for the

85
00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:39,680
plans, but you know, what's probably screeching through their brain right now is this guy wants

86
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:46,580
to bring shit coins to Bitcoin. Uh, I think we have to get the elephant out of the room right

87
00:06:46,580 --> 00:06:53,380
away if from what i understand drive it's been a while since i've looked at uh you know your

88
00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:59,840
bitcoin improvement proposals 300 and 301 but from what i understand in order to implement drive

89
00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:10,020
chains in the way that you want to you would need uh a soft fork and uh correct me if i'm i'm wrong

90
00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:15,860
in my you know language or terminology but what what the plans are wandering right now what i

91
00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:26,540
Imagine what they're wondering right now is if these improvement proposals were merged into the protocol, would that mean that there would be CSAM on their nodes?

92
00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:30,600
Yeah.

93
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:40,960
I mean, it's a very – when you put it like that, I think like we – in a way, it's a good thing that all this – this is all not – all this stuff with Luke and with the CSAM and all that stuff is all nonsense.

94
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:47,500
But it's kind of good that it's come to light because it just means that it's pointless to even try to like reason with a lot of these people.

95
00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:50,660
And we have to like, you know, do something else, I think.

96
00:07:51,460 --> 00:07:54,540
Because the standards for convincing them are like so low.

97
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:56,920
They're so easily manipulated.

98
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:03,500
It's kind of like – but yeah, BIPs 300 and 301 require a soft fork.

99
00:08:04,820 --> 00:08:10,320
Historically, this was not – back in 2015, that was a really easy thing to do.

100
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:26,440
Now it's basically impossible. So I think that's something I'd like people to think about is, you know, why is it so difficult to do the soft work these days? And the answer is not a good one. The answer is just that everyone's deranged.

101
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:33,040
but yet this is the position that most people have and it feeds this whole ecosystem of

102
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:38,300
i don't want to say like parasites it's not really what i think but even like when they do

103
00:08:38,300 --> 00:08:42,520
like the op next conference it's like there's a whole food chain you know there's a whole thing

104
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,940
you can do that way there's a whole prestige economy you can be like oh we will be the one who

105
00:08:46,940 --> 00:08:55,800
who facilitates the the next soft fork so i don't you know it's kind of a mean way of putting it but

106
00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:04,600
But there's a whole ecosystem managing this weird idea of that we have to care so much about the next off fork.

107
00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:08,400
When really they're all opt-in and reversible and ignorable.

108
00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:09,980
They're all perfectly safe.

109
00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:11,780
We used to do many per year.

110
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,140
We used to do on average two per year for the first seven years of Bitcoin.

111
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:23,000
The fact that it's even possible is amazing because they're all backwards, forwards compatible.

112
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,700
You can just have some people run one temporarily.

113
00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:30,320
And so they're really – the soft fork is nothing.

114
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,780
Back in 2015 when I wrote it, that was nothing.

115
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:48,500
And even today, the new versions of DriveChain I have now, they don't require any code changes to Bitcoin Core, which is itself like – but they do require like basically 51% enforcement by miners.

116
00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:50,760
So that's kind of similar but not the same.

117
00:09:50,760 --> 00:10:24,292
But I think other people would be surprised to learn that this is even possible to separate all this stuff It like very technical But it like changing the lines of code in Bitcoin Core that has people people are all really worried about that for some reason And yet they not worried at all Every six months Bitcoin Core will like refactor the code They will touch lots and lots of the many lines of code to get it to do nothing um but just to refactor it and so that uh we got a situation where

118
00:10:24,292 --> 00:10:30,612
people the protocol doesn't evolve but many lines of code are touched so it doesn't make sense but

119
00:10:30,612 --> 00:10:38,152
when you talk about code you talk about different node clients and like here's a pull request and

120
00:10:38,152 --> 00:10:39,392
This is how the code changes.

121
00:10:39,512 --> 00:10:41,232
And like the plebs heads are already spinning.

122
00:10:41,572 --> 00:10:41,832
Like, right.

123
00:10:41,892 --> 00:10:43,592
Like it's gone.

124
00:10:43,672 --> 00:10:44,392
It's kind of a joke.

125
00:10:44,452 --> 00:10:51,572
Anybody who knows how to code, it's probably one of the easiest skills, cheapest or like

126
00:10:51,572 --> 00:10:54,772
most cost effective skills to learn.

127
00:10:54,972 --> 00:10:59,752
And in fact, like people are so intimidated by learning how to code, it kind of tells

128
00:10:59,752 --> 00:11:03,432
you a lot about their approach in general.

129
00:11:03,432 --> 00:11:13,472
Like if you care so much about this protocol and you have like this religious awakening and attachment to it, but you're complaining all core treats is bad because we don't know how to code.

130
00:11:13,472 --> 00:11:20,032
It's like you can just watch some YouTube videos in a few months if you actually care and stick with it.

131
00:11:20,152 --> 00:11:21,412
You'll be pretty good at this.

132
00:11:21,532 --> 00:11:26,052
I mean, you can go to Jimmy, Jimmy Song's boot camp and learn Python like in a weekend.

133
00:11:26,052 --> 00:11:36,172
um but that's really not what is like the most important at least i guess it depends on the

134
00:11:36,172 --> 00:11:42,752
context but thinking and problem solving and living in these like abstractions like you have to

135
00:11:42,752 --> 00:11:48,312
think about everything from an it's an abstract a complex abstract concept and it's theoretical

136
00:11:48,312 --> 00:11:54,652
until you can kind of prove it out you can you can get nodes or users to kind of start

137
00:11:54,652 --> 00:11:56,112
We're following these new rules.

138
00:11:56,232 --> 00:11:59,412
The code itself, not that difficult, but thinking abstract.

139
00:11:59,832 --> 00:12:05,312
How do we get the plebs to be able to think in abstractions?

140
00:12:05,752 --> 00:12:06,772
Do we have to?

141
00:12:07,112 --> 00:12:11,512
I think Richard was talking about this a little bit offline before you came on.

142
00:12:11,552 --> 00:12:16,752
It's like, can plebslop bring success for a drive chain?

143
00:12:17,252 --> 00:12:18,812
Can plebslop help?

144
00:12:19,212 --> 00:12:22,852
Can you take these complex concepts, feed them through chat,

145
00:12:22,852 --> 00:12:29,572
run the white papers through chat GPT and give a digestible piece of slop to the

146
00:12:29,572 --> 00:12:35,812
pledge to help them understand what you're trying to do or what a new proposal

147
00:12:35,812 --> 00:12:39,972
aims to do, what the incentives, how those change.

148
00:12:40,212 --> 00:12:42,872
Like is slop the answer that we hate it,

149
00:12:43,032 --> 00:12:48,332
but maybe it's provides a net benefit to society and to the pledge in general.

150
00:12:49,872 --> 00:12:51,912
I don't think I know enough about slop.

151
00:12:51,912 --> 00:12:55,132
I mean it must be theoretically possible, right?

152
00:12:55,252 --> 00:13:02,232
So for someone to calculate the perfect slop, that's like the whatever, thermal exhaust port.

153
00:13:03,592 --> 00:13:12,012
And you just hit at one – for every political cause must have like the one meme that –

154
00:13:12,012 --> 00:13:12,992
Well, that's what it is, right?

155
00:13:13,052 --> 00:13:15,792
Like a meme is not something you engineer in the lab.

156
00:13:15,792 --> 00:13:24,092
And meme is something that you put out there and you know it's a good meme by the way it's received, by how other people are able to connect with it.

157
00:13:24,212 --> 00:13:34,912
They're able to identify with the message of that meme, whether it's a direct message or kind of a more subtle hint, whatever it is.

158
00:13:34,912 --> 00:13:39,072
So it's, it's the slop is, there's no such thing.

159
00:13:39,072 --> 00:13:45,512
I don't think as like an academic slop as somebody who can sit in, in a, in a classroom

160
00:13:45,512 --> 00:13:50,252
or in a, in a science lab and create the perfect slop to create good slop.

161
00:13:50,332 --> 00:13:51,772
You had, it's like being a standup Canadian.

162
00:13:51,772 --> 00:13:56,972
You have to go out into, in front of an audience every single day and puts a slop out there

163
00:13:56,972 --> 00:13:59,932
and gauge the feedback to see if it's good slop.

164
00:14:00,492 --> 00:14:03,472
Yeah, I can, I can speak on maybe, I was sorry.

165
00:14:03,472 --> 00:14:21,272
I can speak on this a little bit. I can translate this for you, Paul. So, you know, like a project manager is like a shepherd for autistic developers, right? So you've got a bunch of retarded executives that want things done by the developers, and they have no idea what they're talking about.

166
00:14:21,272 --> 00:14:26,352
And so the project manager has to be an interface between the two.

167
00:14:26,852 --> 00:14:31,192
So that's kind of the role of a podcaster in a lot of ways as a project manager.

168
00:14:31,392 --> 00:14:39,172
So what computer code is, so you look at like a language like Python or C++, is it's an

169
00:14:39,172 --> 00:14:43,332
intermediary language communicating between humans and computers.

170
00:14:43,332 --> 00:14:49,352
So it's translating zeros and ones into something that's a little bit more decipherable for a

171
00:14:49,352 --> 00:14:53,752
human because unfortunately we're not that good at or efficient at communicating in zeros and ones

172
00:14:53,752 --> 00:15:00,152
and so plebslop is like computer code for retarded plebs if that makes sense

173
00:15:00,152 --> 00:15:09,492
it does i think i mean i think in general there's like a specialist versus generalist

174
00:15:09,492 --> 00:15:14,332
idea because really the executives are trying to do what the customers want and the customers are

175
00:15:14,332 --> 00:15:17,672
like the least specialized of all.

176
00:15:18,112 --> 00:15:20,312
So maybe they know they think they want something

177
00:15:20,312 --> 00:15:22,372
and then the executives have to like figure out

178
00:15:22,372 --> 00:15:23,192
what do they really want.

179
00:15:23,992 --> 00:15:25,252
Then they have to tell the programmers.

180
00:15:25,392 --> 00:15:26,672
Then the programmers have to tell the computer.

181
00:15:27,252 --> 00:15:31,112
Then the computer just has some electrons or whatever.

182
00:15:33,072 --> 00:15:35,912
I think, you know, I think it must be possible

183
00:15:35,912 --> 00:15:38,612
to engineer a perfect slop.

184
00:15:38,612 --> 00:15:42,792
Like of all the diseases that have ever afflicted humans,

185
00:15:42,792 --> 00:15:53,792
most of them evolved over many, many years or possibly millions of years in the wild.

186
00:15:55,172 --> 00:15:59,892
But then I think eventually if you understood it enough, it must be theoretically possible.

187
00:16:00,292 --> 00:16:00,972
But yeah, I don't know.

188
00:16:01,192 --> 00:16:04,912
Does DriveShare need better outreach?

189
00:16:04,912 --> 00:16:09,972
The answer is yes, but isn't it yes asterisk?

190
00:16:09,972 --> 00:16:14,012
because just think of like what these people fall for, you know?

191
00:16:14,052 --> 00:16:18,172
So it's kind of like I kind of was thinking more it's a lost cause

192
00:16:18,172 --> 00:16:24,692
and we want to somehow create a situation where we can use people's ignorance

193
00:16:24,692 --> 00:16:27,192
or mistaken beliefs against them.

194
00:16:27,192 --> 00:16:30,612
That's like more what I think would eventually work is to say,

195
00:16:30,732 --> 00:16:37,152
can we profit off of ignorant plebs instead of educate the plebs?

196
00:16:37,152 --> 00:16:41,572
I've become even more cynical, maybe even than the two of you.

197
00:16:41,692 --> 00:16:42,152
I don't know.

198
00:16:42,732 --> 00:16:43,352
Maybe not.

199
00:16:43,872 --> 00:16:47,092
But for now, I'm just working on the product and making it good.

200
00:16:47,192 --> 00:16:49,432
And I have many, many supporters and fans.

201
00:16:50,772 --> 00:16:56,672
And people always try to, you know, like a lot of people try to apply to work there to labs.

202
00:16:57,032 --> 00:17:00,552
And so we have a lot of great people.

203
00:17:01,232 --> 00:17:04,212
And we put out a pretty good product.

204
00:17:04,212 --> 00:17:07,692
and I think I like getting the right answer.

205
00:17:08,192 --> 00:17:10,452
So I like having an accurate view of the world.

206
00:17:10,672 --> 00:17:14,952
So I just think if I go into the plebslop world,

207
00:17:14,952 --> 00:17:17,092
then I'll become like a different type of person.

208
00:17:17,512 --> 00:17:19,852
I might become like a Steven Spielberg maybe.

209
00:17:20,392 --> 00:17:22,832
If I was super good at it, you'd be like a great entertainer.

210
00:17:22,932 --> 00:17:23,392
You know what I mean?

211
00:17:23,452 --> 00:17:24,872
World-class entertainer.

212
00:17:25,032 --> 00:17:26,212
Of course he's great.

213
00:17:27,072 --> 00:17:29,232
And of course you have like a Freddie Mercury or something.

214
00:17:29,412 --> 00:17:30,332
These people are amazing.

215
00:17:31,312 --> 00:17:33,292
But it's like a different type of thing maybe.

216
00:17:34,212 --> 00:17:37,972
than just building a piece of software that does its job.

217
00:17:38,712 --> 00:17:42,152
You don't want to be a gay rock star.

218
00:17:42,272 --> 00:17:43,812
You want to be a cypher pump, right?

219
00:17:44,312 --> 00:17:45,352
Yeah, sure.

220
00:17:47,492 --> 00:17:52,752
So you mentioned this, that your drive chain idea,

221
00:17:52,872 --> 00:17:55,412
like these layer twos, a lot of people agree with you,

222
00:17:55,712 --> 00:17:56,772
and I believe you.

223
00:17:57,572 --> 00:18:00,232
But if you're on the wrong algorithm on social media,

224
00:18:00,232 --> 00:18:09,392
were the loudest post reactionary most volatile emotionally plebs live in and post every day

225
00:18:09,392 --> 00:18:15,372
um you would not think that people agree with you in fact there's a lot of people when it when it

226
00:18:15,372 --> 00:18:23,172
comes to l2s there's none that a certain sector of the industry have as much it's drive chain

227
00:18:23,172 --> 00:18:29,772
derangement syndrome i guess is what you could boil it down to and it why do you think where do

228
00:18:29,772 --> 00:18:35,172
you think that dry chain derangement syndrome comes from do you think that it is because you're

229
00:18:35,172 --> 00:18:40,212
so you're you know you're astrophobic you're so critical of lightning um you're so critical of

230
00:18:40,212 --> 00:18:47,212
like these sacred cows that people don't to reject anything that that you propose or is it because

231
00:18:47,212 --> 00:18:53,072
maybe you know 50 of the population women they they see drive chain and they think oh great like

232
00:18:53,072 --> 00:18:57,652
i'm not going to be good at this when you're not for the drivers i'm not going to be good at using

233
00:18:57,652 --> 00:19:02,932
this l2 in an islamic country they're not even allowed they would maybe not even be allowed to

234
00:19:02,932 --> 00:19:11,512
use you know that's what their concern is that's an insightful question i think um but the thing is

235
00:19:11,512 --> 00:19:15,772
i was critical i've only like recently started i think it goes the other way with the criticism of

236
00:19:15,772 --> 00:19:21,132
the sacred cows and lightning because of course drive change is very old it's from 2015 and of

237
00:19:21,132 --> 00:19:26,212
course i didn't really push it very um aggressively but i kind of have been pushing it the whole time

238
00:19:26,212 --> 00:19:33,092
And I kind of was thinking like, why don't we live in a world where everyone just dropped everything they were doing to just work on this?

239
00:19:33,232 --> 00:19:34,932
Because it really is that much better.

240
00:19:36,592 --> 00:19:40,572
And so the answers are kind of bizarre, I think.

241
00:19:40,672 --> 00:19:46,392
But I think it's not because of the criticism of like lightning.

242
00:19:46,532 --> 00:19:55,392
Because I kind of just – I had nothing to lose by just ramping that up and up and up because I just think that I was already disliked and the idea isn't very good.

243
00:19:56,352 --> 00:19:57,992
So lightning isn't very good.

244
00:19:58,732 --> 00:20:03,092
And yet it's just – it's part of this complex of the sacred cows.

245
00:20:03,652 --> 00:20:04,912
They all overlap each other.

246
00:20:05,112 --> 00:20:10,232
And so if you're in the cult, you have to just say that lightning will just fix everything.

247
00:20:10,592 --> 00:20:13,292
And it's part of the belief of the future of Bitcoin.

248
00:20:15,572 --> 00:20:23,012
And whatever scales Bitcoin will probably just retroactively be labeled lightning at this point, even because the connection between –

249
00:20:23,012 --> 00:20:37,604
Lightning really just refers to the saving of Bitcoin in the future I think the reason why there a couple of historical reasons So reasons So one was that DriveChain is a little bit miner centric and that is why it is decentralized

250
00:20:38,145 --> 00:20:44,384
because the whole way to get something to work without having like an individual

251
00:20:44,384 --> 00:20:52,005
administrator is to tie it into the mining process. But mining was very unpopular at around

252
00:20:52,005 --> 00:20:53,544
that time because of the scaling war.

253
00:20:54,064 --> 00:20:55,664
So I think that's one reason.

254
00:20:56,005 --> 00:21:00,104
Another reason, though, is I think DriveChain actually reduces the developers from a position

255
00:21:00,104 --> 00:21:02,524
of prestige to make them more competitors.

256
00:21:03,884 --> 00:21:05,445
So it's kind of like YouTube.

257
00:21:05,965 --> 00:21:11,404
It's kind of like what's the relationship between YouTube and like CNN or Fox News or

258
00:21:11,404 --> 00:21:17,245
something where it's like before you were one of these big players in the post-DriveChain

259
00:21:17,245 --> 00:21:18,804
world, anyone can just use any software.

260
00:21:19,664 --> 00:21:24,344
In the pre-drive chain world, you have to care a lot about what happens in Bitcoin Core

261
00:21:24,344 --> 00:21:27,324
because you think, oh, if we let something in, it will destroy the project.

262
00:21:27,324 --> 00:21:31,784
So you need like the safety officer, whatever it is.

263
00:21:33,384 --> 00:21:36,645
You need these people to guard the safety of the protocol.

264
00:21:36,784 --> 00:21:39,764
But in the drive chain world, you just have ossified L1,

265
00:21:40,205 --> 00:21:41,784
and then you have all these L2s that compete.

266
00:21:42,005 --> 00:21:44,725
The L2s maybe fail every once in a while,

267
00:21:45,344 --> 00:21:48,005
but when the L2 fails, it doesn't bring down any other L2s.

268
00:21:48,005 --> 00:21:49,684
So this is like a paradigm shift.

269
00:21:51,245 --> 00:22:05,764
I think DriveChain is hard to understand also because I care – since you're allowing for the L2s to fail, it makes it seem like you don't care about the safety of users' funds.

270
00:22:06,044 --> 00:22:08,844
But that's just – it's sort of the reverse.

271
00:22:09,044 --> 00:22:11,824
It's like here you have a food court where you can order whatever you want.

272
00:22:12,524 --> 00:22:15,445
Whereas right now we have just like one chef.

273
00:22:15,445 --> 00:22:20,084
we have like one Gordon Ramsay or whatever, and he's very expensive.

274
00:22:21,145 --> 00:22:25,905
And he can't cook enough food for 8 billion people. But that's like what we have right now.

275
00:22:25,965 --> 00:22:31,405
And I'm saying, we'll just throw it all open. And then you will have microwave, you know,

276
00:22:31,485 --> 00:22:36,884
TV dinners, in addition to having a Chinese restaurant, and an Indian restaurant and whatever.

277
00:22:36,884 --> 00:22:43,225
So I have all this variety and choice. I think it inherently humiliates some people. So like,

278
00:22:43,225 --> 00:22:45,424
I think all the lightning startups might be destroyed.

279
00:22:45,584 --> 00:22:47,384
And once there's a version of scaling that works,

280
00:22:47,684 --> 00:22:52,745
it might look bad for Blockstream or the other people who theorized the

281
00:22:52,745 --> 00:22:55,124
sidechain idea, but they never actually realized it.

282
00:22:55,205 --> 00:22:58,544
So this includes really prestigious people such as Greg Maxwell.

283
00:22:58,764 --> 00:23:01,645
A lot of people are like sort of basically afraid of him in the technical

284
00:23:01,645 --> 00:23:02,145
community.

285
00:23:03,024 --> 00:23:05,664
So I think you have that dimension.

286
00:23:06,104 --> 00:23:10,205
Also you have like a lot of people benefit from the ossification grift,

287
00:23:10,205 --> 00:23:11,164
as you guys know,

288
00:23:11,164 --> 00:23:20,624
So there's just this interlocking set of beliefs that people just use and that only affords a few business models.

289
00:23:20,745 --> 00:23:22,364
So these business models are like parasites.

290
00:23:22,945 --> 00:23:25,284
They kind of force out – like you could be a podcaster.

291
00:23:27,044 --> 00:23:31,824
It's easier to just not do anything significant because if you do something significant, you can be criticized.

292
00:23:31,824 --> 00:23:47,804
But if you just do the Bitcoin maximalist podcast and you just say, this is, you know, it's just easy to just talk and it's easy to just say like, or even to throw the conference or to throw the, do the steak dinner book thing.

293
00:23:48,205 --> 00:23:57,264
And so it's just so much easier to be on this team stasis and just say, we're going to just defend ossification.

294
00:23:57,465 --> 00:23:58,604
We're just not going to change anything.

295
00:23:59,084 --> 00:24:00,945
So I think these are some of the reasons.

296
00:24:00,945 --> 00:24:10,645
And even when stuff is allowed to change, like stuff like Covenants or OpCat, it's unbelievably slow.

297
00:24:10,945 --> 00:24:14,124
And you can see that actually in practice, like nothing happens still.

298
00:24:14,505 --> 00:24:16,084
So still there's nothing with CTV.

299
00:24:16,705 --> 00:24:19,445
Still there's nothing with even Luke's thing with 444.

300
00:24:19,745 --> 00:24:22,245
So people have tried all kinds of strategies.

301
00:24:23,124 --> 00:24:30,005
But I think overall, it's just that over time, the community actually has subconsciously ossified.

302
00:24:30,005 --> 00:24:40,084
It's very different than the active ossification that people think that they are a part of, but it just actually subconsciously had already happened by like 2021 or something.

303
00:24:41,024 --> 00:24:42,084
So that was the taproot.

304
00:24:42,184 --> 00:24:50,264
But taproot was also a special case because it was in some sense a mirror image of Segwit, which took too long to activate, and the miners felt guilty about that.

305
00:24:50,264 --> 00:24:57,924
And they felt bad about losing the scaling war, and they felt like they wanted to have some kind of apology or whatever.

306
00:24:57,924 --> 00:25:00,624
so they quickly activated Taproot by Speedy Trial.

307
00:25:01,184 --> 00:25:03,745
Taproot also came from basically Greg Maxwell.

308
00:25:04,344 --> 00:25:10,005
Again, so the whole thing is actually Taproot is like just the echo of Segwit,

309
00:25:10,665 --> 00:25:11,684
Segwit from 2017.

310
00:25:12,145 --> 00:25:13,965
We've had nothing since then.

311
00:25:14,584 --> 00:25:16,965
Other than those two things, we've had nothing in the last,

312
00:25:17,725 --> 00:25:19,665
I don't know how many, a long time.

313
00:25:19,864 --> 00:25:25,485
But back when DriveChain was written, there were three soft forks in Q4 of 2015.

314
00:25:25,485 --> 00:25:29,584
So they used to be regular and they used to be uncontroversial.

315
00:25:30,424 --> 00:25:32,645
There was no controversy about them at all.

316
00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:34,985
And in fact, there was no real controversy about Segwit.

317
00:25:35,084 --> 00:25:36,905
The controversy was about the block size war.

318
00:25:37,485 --> 00:25:38,965
Miners just said, we will hold up.

319
00:25:39,544 --> 00:25:41,084
This was just the next one in the list.

320
00:25:41,124 --> 00:25:45,524
And they just said, we will hold this one up until we get the 2x block size increase that we want.

321
00:25:45,985 --> 00:25:48,485
That was a very foolish decision that they made.

322
00:25:48,485 --> 00:25:56,384
But that's just the history of the situation is that this is all like became weird political landscape.

323
00:25:56,864 --> 00:25:59,364
So that's – I think those are some of the reasons.

324
00:25:59,364 --> 00:26:11,864
I also think one final thing is that some people don't want – like Michael Saylor does not want privacy in Bitcoin, which he has said sometimes openly and sometimes sort of secretly.

325
00:26:11,864 --> 00:26:29,284
But – so again, if you improve Bitcoin's privacy, then they won't like that because their view is that Bitcoin has to cater to mainstream finance and that it must become more palatable to like whatever, Wall Street or something.

326
00:26:29,524 --> 00:26:31,024
So that's what they think.

327
00:26:32,245 --> 00:26:36,764
A lot of people have arguments for why they're right and a lot of people have arguments for why they're wrong.

328
00:26:36,764 --> 00:26:40,005
I think they definitely are wrong

329
00:26:40,005 --> 00:26:44,424
because it's not like the internet catered to magazine publishers

330
00:26:44,424 --> 00:26:45,864
or something like that.

331
00:26:45,985 --> 00:26:47,064
That's how it became big.

332
00:26:47,165 --> 00:26:50,384
Oh, what we really need is for the internet to be more like

333
00:26:50,384 --> 00:26:52,445
people's magazine or whatever.

334
00:26:52,665 --> 00:26:53,624
That's not what happened.

335
00:26:54,165 --> 00:26:59,524
The internet is just so different that it couldn't be like what came before.

336
00:26:59,965 --> 00:27:01,184
I think Bitcoin is the same way.

337
00:27:01,604 --> 00:27:04,245
We're dropping the ball on all the cool things that Bitcoin could be

338
00:27:04,245 --> 00:27:07,804
in order to cater to people in the past.

339
00:27:07,924 --> 00:27:09,264
We're letting them off the hook also.

340
00:27:09,505 --> 00:27:13,324
We're saying you don't need to learn about what Bitcoin really is.

341
00:27:13,684 --> 00:27:14,945
It's just another ticker.

342
00:27:15,245 --> 00:27:16,264
So those are some reasons.

343
00:27:16,344 --> 00:27:17,604
I think it's a very valid question.

344
00:27:17,965 --> 00:27:20,245
I do have a drive chain misinformation page

345
00:27:20,245 --> 00:27:27,405
where I do go through 10 or so reasons of what is going on.

346
00:27:27,524 --> 00:27:29,424
Why are people think this and that?

347
00:27:29,424 --> 00:27:33,445
And it's even things that are completely 100% false or even the opposite.

348
00:27:33,445 --> 00:27:40,725
it. So that's on drivechain.info. If people go to the sidebar on the desktop or they go all the way

349
00:27:40,725 --> 00:27:45,884
down on their phone, you can see all the sections. So I have a misinformation page that... But yeah,

350
00:27:45,945 --> 00:27:50,725
another sense is that I don't really know because you would think if people really cared a lot about

351
00:27:50,725 --> 00:27:55,485
Bitcoin, they would really look into all of the issues. And then they would see that this idea is

352
00:27:55,485 --> 00:28:02,684
the cost of trying this idea is very cheap and the benefits are very high. So you would think

353
00:28:02,684 --> 00:28:07,485
a lot of people would support it and again a lot of people do support it but these are like people

354
00:28:07,485 --> 00:28:12,884
like robin linus creator of bitvm or even like renee picard the author of mastering lightning i

355
00:28:12,884 --> 00:28:21,465
have like all these like very elite supporters um but then uh as you say uh we have not mastered

356
00:28:21,465 --> 00:28:28,424
the pleb slop uh you know our pleb slop game is like a d minus or something so but i kind of

357
00:28:28,424 --> 00:28:30,564
I just like, you know, whatever it is, but yeah.

358
00:28:32,905 --> 00:28:34,304
You need a sidekick.

359
00:28:34,684 --> 00:28:34,804
Yeah.

360
00:28:34,864 --> 00:28:36,324
Just before I let Richard at.

361
00:28:37,884 --> 00:28:38,284
Yes.

362
00:28:38,424 --> 00:28:38,864
There you go.

363
00:28:40,064 --> 00:28:41,985
You need your sidekick.

364
00:28:44,804 --> 00:28:45,205
Yes.

365
00:28:45,524 --> 00:28:45,725
I know.

366
00:28:45,725 --> 00:28:46,104
There you go.

367
00:28:46,465 --> 00:28:48,184
I know that was my mistake, right?

368
00:28:48,225 --> 00:28:49,044
I mean, where's that?

369
00:28:49,364 --> 00:28:50,324
Who would have thought?

370
00:28:50,665 --> 00:28:52,424
Who's who's scamming who in that relationship?

371
00:28:52,524 --> 00:28:53,024
I don't know.

372
00:28:53,584 --> 00:28:56,684
But well, you know, mechanic is going to be fine.

373
00:28:56,784 --> 00:28:57,645
He's a company man.

374
00:28:57,645 --> 00:29:02,024
He does what Ocean wants him to do.

375
00:29:02,504 --> 00:29:04,004
He doesn't care what people think.

376
00:29:04,064 --> 00:29:08,184
He goes out there and he tells the company line, he's going to be all right.

377
00:29:08,264 --> 00:29:10,225
People always want to find a company, man.

378
00:29:11,465 --> 00:29:17,604
But real quick before we talk about anything else, I went to drivechain.info and you did.

379
00:29:17,665 --> 00:29:19,764
You said, you know, we haven't mastered the PLEB slot.

380
00:29:19,764 --> 00:29:24,844
So I go down and I see a section called explainer memes.

381
00:29:24,844 --> 00:29:30,245
and these explainer means are very busy.

382
00:29:30,384 --> 00:29:31,504
There's a lot of information.

383
00:29:31,684 --> 00:29:32,544
There's a lot of scribbles.

384
00:29:32,824 --> 00:29:35,364
It's, you got to condense those down.

385
00:29:35,465 --> 00:29:37,604
You got to, you see a picture in like four words.

386
00:29:37,764 --> 00:29:39,684
If you can't do it with a picture in four words,

387
00:29:40,324 --> 00:29:41,205
it's on explainer means.

388
00:29:41,205 --> 00:29:41,824
I mean, it makes a very good point.

389
00:29:42,084 --> 00:29:44,165
I mean, in my defense, I'm not saying that you're wrong.

390
00:29:44,225 --> 00:29:45,044
You're definitely right.

391
00:29:45,524 --> 00:29:48,844
But the drivechain.info, that was always supposed to be,

392
00:29:49,384 --> 00:29:51,864
again, I think this is a very important conversation

393
00:29:51,864 --> 00:29:53,264
for everyone to hear, I think,

394
00:29:53,264 --> 00:29:59,205
because drivechain.info, I made the site in like literally like January 2017 or something.

395
00:29:59,205 --> 00:30:05,284
And the intended audience of the site originally was just like people like Adam Back, Peter Todd,

396
00:30:05,485 --> 00:30:11,425
whatever. This was like my site to dump out the info so that they would have something to look up

397
00:30:11,425 --> 00:30:17,645
and read. And I never even thought that you'd have to do this like big convince the masses

398
00:30:17,645 --> 00:30:24,084
type thing. And so, yeah, I think you're definitely right about that. And then some

399
00:30:24,084 --> 00:30:28,745
stuff was like added like piecemeal later, like the FAQ and all this stuff was like added later

400
00:30:28,745 --> 00:30:36,764
and the misinformation page. So, but yeah, I think that's, so the question is, do we want,

401
00:30:36,764 --> 00:30:41,624
this is again, the specialist versus the generalist idea, like the, you know, the plebs

402
00:30:41,624 --> 00:30:52,717
versus the elites where it kind of like do we want to live in a world where the specialists don talk to each other and become like super specialized team

403
00:30:53,137 --> 00:30:56,277
Because that has a lot of benefits of saying,

404
00:30:56,437 --> 00:30:58,557
we're going to push the envelope as quickly as possible.

405
00:30:58,817 --> 00:31:00,057
We're going to do like a Manhattan project.

406
00:31:00,197 --> 00:31:00,537
You know what I mean?

407
00:31:00,657 --> 00:31:02,637
Like imagine if they had to explain every step,

408
00:31:03,217 --> 00:31:06,897
every single like differential equation in the Manhattan project,

409
00:31:06,897 --> 00:31:10,517
they had to explain it to everyone in Louisiana or something, you know,

410
00:31:10,517 --> 00:31:15,657
it would be pretty hard to get it done in time to stop New York City from being obliterated by

411
00:31:15,657 --> 00:31:21,337
nuclear explosion. So it's kind of like the specialists maybe should have their own little

412
00:31:21,337 --> 00:31:26,577
like club and their own little vocabulary. But yeah, I agree with you that, well, yeah,

413
00:31:26,657 --> 00:31:29,117
and like those memes, those of them like whatever, I don't even know. Like,

414
00:31:29,557 --> 00:31:34,557
I don't remember when I put that up, like 2018 or 2017 or something. But yeah, those aren't very

415
00:31:34,557 --> 00:31:40,377
good. I agree. And this site just kind of grew as I just stapled more and more stuff on. The FAQ

416
00:31:40,377 --> 00:31:44,977
was eventually, that was composed of questions that I literally was frequently asked. It wasn't

417
00:31:44,977 --> 00:31:49,917
even like a written thing. I was just like, I'm so tired of getting these questions. I put it on

418
00:31:49,917 --> 00:31:57,617
there. But yeah, yeah, I don't think DriveChain.info is a good site for the masses. But then it's kind

419
00:31:57,617 --> 00:32:03,217
of like the masses, you know, they have no idea. So SegWit activated. And, you know, there are many,

420
00:32:03,337 --> 00:32:09,137
many stories we could tell about SegWit activation. But, you know, there are common myths that people

421
00:32:09,137 --> 00:32:13,517
believe about SegWit making the transaction smaller. That's not true. It actually makes

422
00:32:13,517 --> 00:32:18,837
the transactions bigger, but since it can use the four megabyte space, they get the discount.

423
00:32:20,417 --> 00:32:26,017
And, you know, people, there are people, one, so for example, Bitcoin error log, John Carvalho,

424
00:32:26,097 --> 00:32:30,757
he has tweeted about this. So this is why I bring this up, but anyone can kind of trace this up or

425
00:32:30,757 --> 00:32:39,037
have Grok look it up for you. He is like, he was a huge militant supporter of SegWit activation.

426
00:32:39,137 --> 00:32:42,277
He was kind of like a pleb slop, a pleb shepherd.

427
00:32:44,517 --> 00:32:49,197
But then years later, he had to admit that he was like, oh, yeah, I was really misled.

428
00:32:49,297 --> 00:32:50,657
It didn't work the way I thought that it did.

429
00:32:50,737 --> 00:32:53,337
I believed all these things that weren't true about it.

430
00:32:53,897 --> 00:32:55,877
And so then he concludes that maybe it was rushed.

431
00:32:56,137 --> 00:33:02,857
Everyone has this conclusion that we have to inform everyone first so that people make an informed decision to upgrade.

432
00:33:02,857 --> 00:33:09,397
I kind of think almost the reverse where it's kind of like we are never going to inform enough people.

433
00:33:10,177 --> 00:33:20,597
And so what we instead need is some kind of like leadership or accountability or something where – because I just think – I just don't buy it that everyone will understand BIP-300.

434
00:33:20,777 --> 00:33:23,337
Even BIP-300 is simpler than SegWit, I think.

435
00:33:23,337 --> 00:33:31,357
And I think Taproot is more complicated than SegWit, but maybe BIP-300 is the simplest of the three because it's really under the hood.

436
00:33:31,437 --> 00:33:32,777
It's just counting to 13,000.

437
00:33:32,857 --> 00:33:34,917
with OpNop 5.

438
00:33:36,277 --> 00:33:38,717
But I just don't think people will understand it.

439
00:33:38,777 --> 00:33:41,317
And in fact, I think much simpler than BIP300

440
00:33:41,317 --> 00:33:42,917
is this whole op return thing,

441
00:33:43,017 --> 00:33:44,777
which is even simpler than that.

442
00:33:45,537 --> 00:33:48,737
But you can see that we've run aground on that issue.

443
00:33:48,937 --> 00:33:50,997
So it's kind of like trying to explain it to people.

444
00:33:50,997 --> 00:33:53,217
Seems like a lost cause.

445
00:33:54,697 --> 00:33:57,777
Well, it's important to understand the landscape.

446
00:33:58,117 --> 00:33:58,897
And I think this is something

447
00:33:58,897 --> 00:34:01,617
that we've been trying to educate people on

448
00:34:01,617 --> 00:34:03,997
is just, you know, how the way the world works.

449
00:34:04,817 --> 00:34:08,237
Because there's a perceived way that the world works.

450
00:34:08,297 --> 00:34:10,857
Like in many ways, we live in a feudal society

451
00:34:10,857 --> 00:34:17,377
where the podcasters, the communicators are like the lords

452
00:34:17,377 --> 00:34:27,017
communicating for their, you know, kings or whatever.

453
00:34:27,017 --> 00:34:30,277
So you've got Luke as the king, mechanic as the lord,

454
00:34:30,277 --> 00:34:36,857
the lord commands the plebs and you got craters another lord and then you've got um

455
00:34:36,857 --> 00:34:44,917
you know you know the very the various you know justin bachelor's a lower lower lord uh you've

456
00:34:44,917 --> 00:34:51,557
got these dynamics in different places and so you know like on the core side you've got you've got a

457
00:34:51,557 --> 00:34:57,317
similar you know situation where you've got like adam back or you know whoever is you know towards

458
00:34:57,317 --> 00:35:03,017
atop and is the royalty commanding lower lords like shinobi you know and they're directing

459
00:35:03,017 --> 00:35:09,797
different plebs to go fight each other uh you know in battle and this is kind of the you know

460
00:35:09,797 --> 00:35:15,757
the game that is played you know and what you're saying which i think is correct and you know people

461
00:35:15,757 --> 00:35:22,197
are going to be offended by this reality but sometimes if reality is offensive is uh you know

462
00:35:22,197 --> 00:35:29,437
the kings and the lords they they oftentimes play the game because they understand the game that you

463
00:35:29,437 --> 00:35:36,297
can't you kind of have to be mock valiant sometimes to accomplish your goals and you can't communicate

464
00:35:36,297 --> 00:35:41,257
everything to the plebs and now honestly sometimes just communicating everything outright is

465
00:35:41,257 --> 00:35:49,057
counterproductive and what you have to do instead is is use distractions and and culture war stuff

466
00:35:49,057 --> 00:35:56,297
um i'm not i'm not like you know a huge advocate for this because i i don't like to uh you know

467
00:35:56,297 --> 00:36:01,677
just mess with other people's lives but this is how the game is played and is being played right

468
00:36:01,677 --> 00:36:08,437
now uh the the plabs are hurling themselves as useless cannon fodder not understanding the

469
00:36:08,437 --> 00:36:14,377
incentives and goals that they're trying to to further uh they're being you know

470
00:36:14,377 --> 00:36:21,097
in many ways misled because you know the the plebs in the allegory of the cave

471
00:36:21,097 --> 00:36:26,397
like i think this is one of the dangerous dynamics in the bitcoin ecosystem

472
00:36:26,397 --> 00:36:29,557
is the plebs think they're outside of the cave

473
00:36:29,557 --> 00:36:35,417
but they're actually inside of the cave and they're terrified to get outside the cave yeah

474
00:36:35,417 --> 00:36:37,057
like the defenders of bitcoin

475
00:36:37,057 --> 00:36:44,757
you know like they they think you know many of these many many people are bots that aren't even

476
00:36:44,757 --> 00:36:51,477
real but many of them are like people who own like 0.00003 bitcoin or something and then they

477
00:36:51,477 --> 00:36:57,077
join and then they're told this is how to contribute to bitcoin is just be very toxic to

478
00:36:57,077 --> 00:37:02,577
everyone so then they're like oh i can do that it's like an on-ramp with people with no skills

479
00:37:02,577 --> 00:37:05,117
yeah I mean I hate to say this about

480
00:37:05,117 --> 00:37:07,137
Shinobi also but it's like yeah what can you do

481
00:37:07,137 --> 00:37:09,137
if you have the Shinobi skill set like this is

482
00:37:09,137 --> 00:37:10,597
as high as you can get on the

483
00:37:10,597 --> 00:37:12,997
skill like this is your best way you know

484
00:37:12,997 --> 00:37:15,097
it's kind of like you know it's like

485
00:37:15,097 --> 00:37:17,017
Adolf Hitler you can't draw he can't

486
00:37:17,017 --> 00:37:19,077
paint very well but there's this

487
00:37:19,077 --> 00:37:20,917
other thing I guess that's not a great example

488
00:37:20,917 --> 00:37:22,957
but it's like you know he where's

489
00:37:22,957 --> 00:37:25,117
Shinobi's code where's Shinobi's like

490
00:37:25,117 --> 00:37:25,877
technical

491
00:37:25,877 --> 00:37:28,857
documents where's his you know

492
00:37:28,857 --> 00:37:30,957
when you know what else but if

493
00:37:30,957 --> 00:37:43,857
So if all you can do is troll people online, then you have like a little bit of an opening in this climate because that's one of the few things that – one of the few models, like a few business models that sort of works.

494
00:37:46,197 --> 00:37:48,657
But yeah, I think – sorry?

495
00:37:49,717 --> 00:37:59,637
I would say that's one of the – people think that they tried to get Shinobi to step down from the core maintainer because he supported core.

496
00:37:59,637 --> 00:38:02,457
but the reason he needed to step down

497
00:38:02,457 --> 00:38:04,477
is because he wasn't contributing, he wasn't coding

498
00:38:04,477 --> 00:38:06,817
he was online calling people retards

499
00:38:06,817 --> 00:38:08,457
if that's what you want to do

500
00:38:08,457 --> 00:38:10,217
that's fine, but get off

501
00:38:10,217 --> 00:38:12,257
get off of the core maintainer

502
00:38:12,257 --> 00:38:13,237
roster, you know

503
00:38:13,237 --> 00:38:16,337
Right, I mean, we so much are really just

504
00:38:16,337 --> 00:38:18,637
if only they could just put it, we should just make a list

505
00:38:18,637 --> 00:38:20,597
of all the people who actually are on the

506
00:38:20,597 --> 00:38:22,717
core roster and then we would actually know

507
00:38:22,717 --> 00:38:24,497
who was, you know, if there was like

508
00:38:24,497 --> 00:38:26,277
a site that just tracked, you know

509
00:38:26,277 --> 00:38:27,897
every time someone made a contribution

510
00:38:27,897 --> 00:38:30,197
that would be very helpful for organizing.

511
00:38:31,357 --> 00:38:32,657
Well, we do a ranking list.

512
00:38:32,657 --> 00:38:37,397
We do the power rankings for core contributors.

513
00:38:37,977 --> 00:38:39,117
We used to do it every month.

514
00:38:39,257 --> 00:38:43,137
It was literally just based on how many lines of code you committed

515
00:38:43,137 --> 00:38:44,657
over the past 30 days.

516
00:38:45,397 --> 00:38:48,497
And I can't see a better way to do it.

517
00:38:48,737 --> 00:38:49,057
Right.

518
00:38:49,317 --> 00:38:53,217
That's obviously – anyone who works with software knows that it's just –

519
00:38:53,217 --> 00:38:58,297
The more lines of code you touch, the more efficient you are.

520
00:38:58,437 --> 00:38:59,437
The more invaluable you are.

521
00:38:59,437 --> 00:39:04,397
The more skin you have in the game, the more lines of code you touch, the more bugs you might have introduced,

522
00:39:04,657 --> 00:39:08,937
the more fuck-ups you might have added to the code that we can blame you for later.

523
00:39:08,937 --> 00:39:12,997
So if you're going to do 100 lines a day, they're the fall guy.

524
00:39:13,317 --> 00:39:15,677
It's like sleeping under the bridge after you build it.

525
00:39:16,037 --> 00:39:17,677
The engineers, if you start to sleep under them.

526
00:39:17,717 --> 00:39:20,117
The guy who's touched 100 lines a day, you can't be fired.

527
00:39:20,957 --> 00:39:22,977
So, I mean, that's something.

528
00:39:23,217 --> 00:39:28,837
So, yeah, I don't know about like persuading the masses.

529
00:39:28,997 --> 00:39:29,417
I'm not sure.

530
00:39:29,557 --> 00:39:33,457
Maybe we need more competition of a different kind.

531
00:39:33,457 --> 00:39:40,517
I've said on a few previous podcasts that maybe the hard fork should be rehabilitated.

532
00:39:40,677 --> 00:39:43,397
Like everyone hated it when Roger Ver did it with Bitcoin Cash.

533
00:39:43,797 --> 00:39:47,837
But he like tried to say it was the real Bitcoin and he owned the Bitcoin.com domain.

534
00:39:47,837 --> 00:40:14,417
And so if we had a little bit more competition of some kind, then it wouldn't just be about like, can we persuade everyone? Because you see that the persuasion route is like just so inefficient and slow. And it's so easy to distract people. I mean, there are these, there are cynical theories that every time we get close to a soft fork, there's like a new distraction.

535
00:40:14,417 --> 00:40:26,257
I don't really believe this, but like Moonsettler, my friend Moonsettler, he kind of thinks this and he just thinks like there's something – although I think – I'm pretty sure Robin Linus thinks something like this.

536
00:40:26,437 --> 00:40:27,797
These are like super smart people.

537
00:40:27,977 --> 00:40:31,557
They're totally real and they think you should have them on the show if you haven't already.

538
00:40:31,737 --> 00:40:32,297
They're great.

539
00:40:32,977 --> 00:40:40,017
But they're like something is intentionally halting the progress in Bitcoin.

540
00:40:41,297 --> 00:40:42,577
Bitcoin is a lot less threatening.

541
00:40:42,577 --> 00:40:48,557
If it's – instead of being something that people really use every day, it's just like a ticker symbol.

542
00:40:49,177 --> 00:40:50,417
It's not that.

543
00:40:50,657 --> 00:40:55,137
But then I also think it's unlikely that – I don't think it's true.

544
00:40:55,237 --> 00:41:02,877
Like a lot of people think Michael Saylor is like a spook or like a CIA operative or something because of course the MicroStrategy headquarters is like right across.

545
00:41:02,929 --> 00:41:07,029
across the street from the CIA and he went to like West Point and he was in

546
00:41:07,029 --> 00:41:10,489
trouble in the past for like with the SEC and like for fraud and like,

547
00:41:10,549 --> 00:41:11,709
so that he's been like flipped.

548
00:41:11,809 --> 00:41:13,069
So there's always like funny theories.

549
00:41:14,169 --> 00:41:16,589
And not to mention like our strategies,

550
00:41:16,849 --> 00:41:20,249
customers and vendors are all the state agencies,

551
00:41:20,529 --> 00:41:21,269
contractors,

552
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:22,649
hospitality,

553
00:41:23,409 --> 00:41:23,829
healthcare,

554
00:41:24,129 --> 00:41:24,409
very,

555
00:41:24,589 --> 00:41:25,269
very sensitive,

556
00:41:25,269 --> 00:41:30,269
but very pertinent and important information about the whereabouts,

557
00:41:30,529 --> 00:41:31,109
the habits,

558
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:33,269
the records of people.

559
00:41:33,909 --> 00:41:34,489
Yeah, absolutely.

560
00:41:34,809 --> 00:41:37,829
So people should be aware of that theory

561
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:41,369
because it's like a fleshed out theory.

562
00:41:41,609 --> 00:41:47,109
But I kind of just think it's much easier to imagine like –

563
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:49,289
well, I mean the question is,

564
00:41:49,489 --> 00:41:53,829
is there like an actual room somewhere where people calculate out,

565
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:56,389
okay, this is what's best for Bitcoin and this is what's worst

566
00:41:56,389 --> 00:41:58,129
and this is what we think we can achieve?

567
00:41:58,129 --> 00:42:01,989
will send Michael Saylor out there to say that it should be digital property.

568
00:42:02,549 --> 00:42:04,909
And it's kind of like that's really hard to believe.

569
00:42:05,409 --> 00:42:06,729
That's just too hard to believe.

570
00:42:07,449 --> 00:42:09,469
It's hard to believe that it's a room.

571
00:42:09,889 --> 00:42:12,849
It's not as hard to believe that it could be a group chat.

572
00:42:16,289 --> 00:42:20,249
I mean, the group chat, sometimes in some ways the group chat is worse

573
00:42:20,249 --> 00:42:21,969
because the group chat, you can get screenshots.

574
00:42:21,969 --> 00:42:24,869
Whereas the room, someone's got to get the recorder in there somewhere.

575
00:42:24,869 --> 00:42:32,269
and you know as local as luke learned the hard way yeah screenshot of your combo so it's hard to say

576
00:42:32,269 --> 00:42:38,109
um but uh i you know like do they really one question is do does do these people really

577
00:42:38,109 --> 00:42:42,629
actually know like this is better for bitcoin versus this is worse right that's really hard

578
00:42:42,629 --> 00:42:48,169
to figure out and do they care that all the time so yeah i don't know do they really have that out

579
00:42:48,169 --> 00:42:51,749
and then they say we're going to kill privacy on bitcoin and the way we're going to do it is we're

580
00:42:51,749 --> 00:42:56,569
going to have Michael Saylor kill a deal to donate money to poor developers.

581
00:42:57,529 --> 00:42:58,789
I feel bad for some,

582
00:42:58,969 --> 00:43:03,329
many of these developers because I'm kind of a little bit more of a Bitcoin OG.

583
00:43:03,929 --> 00:43:08,449
So I'm not an impoverished developer and, you know,

584
00:43:08,489 --> 00:43:10,289
had all his coins stolen sadly.

585
00:43:11,229 --> 00:43:13,189
But I think if someone's starting now,

586
00:43:13,249 --> 00:43:15,989
there's a lot of pressure to like, how, how are you going to earn a living?

587
00:43:15,989 --> 00:43:20,609
And it's like, Oh, you know you really can't afford to make certain people

588
00:43:20,609 --> 00:43:25,929
upset so you can't touch anything controversial anyway yeah i think you wanted to say something

589
00:43:25,929 --> 00:43:35,009
yeah i i don't like the first to fund court ads right yeah i don't like the framing of uh good

590
00:43:35,009 --> 00:43:43,929
for bitcoin because that's such like a there's like an impossible thing to define i think there's

591
00:43:43,929 --> 00:43:50,069
what's good for individuals so like the plebs don't know what's good for them they're told by

592
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:53,849
the podcasters what's good for them and they just kind of pick and choose which one sounds more

593
00:43:53,849 --> 00:44:01,629
attractive it makes them feel good you got Udi spam's good for bitcoin in Udi's mind and then

594
00:44:01,629 --> 00:44:09,269
you know privacy is good for bitcoin in other people's mind um you know for people in the

595
00:44:09,269 --> 00:44:17,389
finance world like Saylor having you know the banking system have a monopoly on on money laundering

596
00:44:17,389 --> 00:44:19,709
where you have to go through individuals like Jeffrey Epstein

597
00:44:19,709 --> 00:44:22,849
to get all your dirty laundry taken care of for you

598
00:44:22,849 --> 00:44:25,489
and it's not democratized for the masses,

599
00:44:26,489 --> 00:44:28,309
that's good for Bitcoin.

600
00:44:28,469 --> 00:44:30,489
Bitcoin is just a store of value

601
00:44:30,489 --> 00:44:33,549
that once your funds are laundered by Epstein

602
00:44:33,549 --> 00:44:37,509
or another folk, you can park it in and sit on it.

603
00:44:40,209 --> 00:44:42,589
Bitcoin has a lot of different individuals

604
00:44:42,589 --> 00:44:44,049
interacting with it

605
00:44:44,049 --> 00:44:48,869
who have different incentives and desires and needs.

606
00:44:49,969 --> 00:44:50,549
And so –

607
00:44:50,549 --> 00:44:55,129
Well, that's kind of my point though is that to figure out what is good for Bitcoin overall

608
00:44:55,129 --> 00:44:57,489
is actually really hard and very controversial.

609
00:44:58,589 --> 00:45:01,029
But I do think there is something like you could say when Bitcoin –

610
00:45:01,029 --> 00:45:03,589
when the price of Bitcoin goes up, when Bitcoin has more users,

611
00:45:03,709 --> 00:45:07,569
when more people let it into their hearts and minds

612
00:45:07,569 --> 00:45:10,929
and they decide that it's not just a fake thing, it's actually some real thing.

613
00:45:10,929 --> 00:45:13,429
when more people accept Bitcoin.

614
00:45:13,629 --> 00:45:18,129
I think people accepting Bitcoin in return for goods and services

615
00:45:18,129 --> 00:45:20,689
or in return for labor, like if someone says,

616
00:45:21,329 --> 00:45:24,929
can you give me $200 and they send a Bitcoin address,

617
00:45:26,149 --> 00:45:29,469
that itself is pretty good for Bitcoin.

618
00:45:30,389 --> 00:45:34,509
I do think all the money, every type of money in the world,

619
00:45:34,669 --> 00:45:39,829
like the euro versus the US dollar versus the Japanese yen,

620
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:44,129
I think all the money in the world, it has like these strong network effects.

621
00:45:44,509 --> 00:45:48,429
So you tend to – one tends to gain at the expense of the other.

622
00:45:49,229 --> 00:45:54,769
You don't normally see a place where we like, oh, we take both euros and Japanese yen.

623
00:45:55,629 --> 00:45:59,549
It's usually there's just one and then it kind of hits a limit.

624
00:45:59,729 --> 00:46:01,809
Like there used to be different money.

625
00:46:01,809 --> 00:46:12,569
If you go even a few hundred years back in American history, there was like a local bank had like its own local money and there were many, many, many kinds.

626
00:46:13,869 --> 00:46:22,649
And so the only reason we didn't have a single global currency was just because people didn't do that much travel or didn't do that much international trade because the world was a lot smaller place.

627
00:46:22,649 --> 00:46:33,309
But as the world has gotten bigger, now the US dollar is like – whenever there is a forex trade, the US dollar is one of the two legs like 85% of the time or something.

628
00:46:34,129 --> 00:46:44,589
So you really – like there's a strong – so when I talk about like what's good for Bitcoin, it's kind of like are we maximizing the chances that Bitcoin like survives and is the winning coin?

629
00:46:45,289 --> 00:46:49,709
Or are we making it so that it's less likely that that will happen?

630
00:46:49,709 --> 00:46:52,829
Because I think if that doesn't happen, then Bitcoin will fail.

631
00:46:53,069 --> 00:46:57,369
I agree with Satoshi said, like, Bitcoin's either going to succeed or it's going to go to zero.

632
00:46:57,869 --> 00:46:58,989
And I agree with that.

633
00:46:59,069 --> 00:47:01,189
I don't think it will be like some intermediate.

634
00:47:01,389 --> 00:47:09,929
If it's in some intermediate state, I think it will always have to be looking over its shoulder for like some kind of event that will just wipe it out.

635
00:47:09,929 --> 00:47:16,449
you know something something that i think johnson talked about on the coin uncensored that i thought

636
00:47:16,449 --> 00:47:22,009
was a good point and this was like years ago was that if you like money is not people think that

637
00:47:22,009 --> 00:47:26,569
the fed just prints money and that's where the money comes from in reality most money is created

638
00:47:26,569 --> 00:47:33,869
when any sort of loan or credit is generated by individual banks and like every if you thought

639
00:47:33,869 --> 00:47:39,269
about it as like every individual bank issued its own dollar right like you you could go to

640
00:47:39,269 --> 00:47:44,049
coin market cap and you could see that it was trading a few points you know below par above

641
00:47:44,049 --> 00:47:50,569
or whatever like that maybe would could come to fruition now if like every bank issues its own

642
00:47:50,569 --> 00:47:57,989
stable coin you got tether versus circle versus paypal usd versus you know farmers credit union

643
00:47:57,989 --> 00:48:04,069
of iowa usd versus whatever like adding maybe that would might bring more perspective to it but

644
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:08,849
that's an interesting but i wanted to get back to something because i had not thought about this

645
00:48:08,849 --> 00:48:09,889
until this conversation.

646
00:48:11,309 --> 00:48:14,269
But is there a difference?

647
00:48:14,389 --> 00:48:16,269
And if so, what is the difference

648
00:48:16,269 --> 00:48:19,669
between persuasion and building consensus?

649
00:48:19,669 --> 00:48:22,209
Because I think people conflate those two things.

650
00:48:23,409 --> 00:48:26,429
I think the bigger conflation is the word consensus,

651
00:48:26,429 --> 00:48:30,389
which unfortunately has like screwed us all.

652
00:48:30,789 --> 00:48:32,409
Because when Satoshi,

653
00:48:32,909 --> 00:48:37,649
or in the context of the problem of like creating,

654
00:48:37,649 --> 00:48:44,289
e-cash or creating Bitcoin, the word consensus meant that every single node, it meant that you

655
00:48:44,289 --> 00:48:49,229
were solving the double spend problem and that every single piece of software would agree on

656
00:48:49,229 --> 00:48:55,109
what the blockchain contains and which branch of it forks, which branch is the real version and all

657
00:48:55,109 --> 00:49:00,749
the other ones are fake. So the word consensus came to have this like mythic property. And now

658
00:49:00,749 --> 00:49:05,409
everyone cares about, oh, do we have consensus on this soft fork, which is something that we never

659
00:49:05,409 --> 00:49:10,549
had before and no one ever wanted before. And all this is a myth. So building consensus, I think,

660
00:49:10,589 --> 00:49:15,229
is actually an evil thing as I've gotten a little bit older, but especially I have this firsthand

661
00:49:15,229 --> 00:49:21,189
experience with it in Bitcoin, the soft fork world becoming completely deranged. You never really have

662
00:49:21,189 --> 00:49:26,429
a consensus and you can't want one either because it opens the door to like a kind of counterattack

663
00:49:26,429 --> 00:49:31,229
by these people who just say, well, hey, I wasn't convinced. Even if they really were, they lie.

664
00:49:31,229 --> 00:49:34,109
and they say that you go down the list.

665
00:49:34,469 --> 00:49:36,469
So basically imagine a world where you had to get,

666
00:49:37,189 --> 00:49:39,269
and this was actually the Polish political system

667
00:49:39,269 --> 00:49:41,189
for a while and it led to disaster.

668
00:49:41,529 --> 00:49:42,249
But it was like,

669
00:49:42,569 --> 00:49:45,109
you have to get all 100 senators to agree on something.

670
00:49:45,729 --> 00:49:48,429
At a first glance, this seems like a decent idea

671
00:49:48,429 --> 00:49:49,249
because it says, well,

672
00:49:49,689 --> 00:49:51,529
the process is only going to let something through

673
00:49:51,529 --> 00:49:53,649
after everyone agrees that it's good.

674
00:49:54,509 --> 00:49:56,369
And so if anyone has a concern,

675
00:49:56,489 --> 00:49:57,689
if anyone has an idea, they think,

676
00:49:57,769 --> 00:49:59,569
oh, hey, wait a minute, this might be really bad.

677
00:50:00,209 --> 00:50:01,349
Then everyone will stop.

678
00:50:01,669 --> 00:50:03,789
It's kind of like a Star Trek kind of idea too.

679
00:50:03,949 --> 00:50:13,089
You know, like the captain will bring everyone into the room and they'll talk it out and everyone will share their expertise and their idea and then they'll decide on the best course of action.

680
00:50:14,709 --> 00:50:21,329
But the problem in a political context is that, you know, often people want different things or something at the expense of another person.

681
00:50:21,329 --> 00:50:34,149
So one person could say – you can contrast it with something where it says if you win 51 percent, 51 senators, then you're good and the 49 are ignored.

682
00:50:35,769 --> 00:50:45,409
And you could say – but the problem is with the consensus version where you need all 100 is that each individual of the people who may disagree.

683
00:50:45,409 --> 00:50:49,809
So maybe you have something where 80 percent of the senators already agree and there's 20.

684
00:50:49,809 --> 00:50:55,769
each of the 20 can start demanding a personal concession and they can say you need to cater to

685
00:50:55,769 --> 00:51:01,049
me and my because i've got a veto on this and so you need to give me everything that i want

686
00:51:01,049 --> 00:51:05,149
and then what do you do in a situation where two or the three senators they each ask for something

687
00:51:05,149 --> 00:51:10,489
like mutually exclusive they say like oh i want i want you to give me the next i want you to give

688
00:51:10,489 --> 00:51:27,361
me this city or i want you to name the next opera after me or something you know you can now it impossible The problem can be fixed And in fact the Polish system had to be abandoned because people would come in they would bribe one of the equivalent of like the nobles one of the equivalent of the senators

689
00:51:27,961 --> 00:51:31,621
And they would say, we won't destroy your province and we'll give you this bribe.

690
00:51:31,621 --> 00:51:36,181
And then they're just veto anything about defending the country or a standing army.

691
00:51:36,341 --> 00:51:37,861
And then they would get constantly get invaded.

692
00:51:37,861 --> 00:51:58,681
So you need to have something where the threshold is like basically a majority, 50.00001 percent, because it is the only way of assigning responsibility accurately is when you say actually because when you have these supermajority thresholds, it creates this toxic limbo.

693
00:51:58,681 --> 00:52:01,401
So, for example, you have – maybe you have a 75 percent threshold.

694
00:52:01,501 --> 00:52:03,041
These are in the US Constitution.

695
00:52:03,041 --> 00:52:09,721
to override a veto or to do many things need two-thirds or to amend the constitution you need

696
00:52:09,721 --> 00:52:18,041
75 percent and um so you need when you have something that's a 75 threshold let's say you're

697
00:52:18,041 --> 00:52:24,721
making it very close and you're at 74 you just need a few more people well now it's you have 26

698
00:52:24,721 --> 00:52:32,141
of these people who can demand the concession and so maybe if when when the proposal ultimately

699
00:52:32,141 --> 00:52:38,361
fails to pass, you no longer know who should be blamed. Because if it passes, you know you can

700
00:52:38,361 --> 00:52:43,101
blame them. They're responsible. If it fails, you know exactly what to do. If it fails, you know

701
00:52:43,101 --> 00:52:47,661
you didn't convince enough people. More people were not convinced than convinced. So you need to

702
00:52:47,661 --> 00:52:53,461
just find – if you're at 48 or 49 and it fails, you know, okay, I need to find someone out there

703
00:52:53,461 --> 00:53:00,401
that I can flip and then I'll get to a majority. But until then, I haven't succeeded in my goal

704
00:53:00,401 --> 00:53:01,361
of persuading people.

705
00:53:01,641 --> 00:53:02,461
So this is the difference

706
00:53:02,461 --> 00:53:03,621
between persuasion and consent.

707
00:53:03,721 --> 00:53:05,681
Consensus is this 100% agreement

708
00:53:05,681 --> 00:53:08,181
and persuasion is just,

709
00:53:08,981 --> 00:53:10,401
persuasion is more of the 51.

710
00:53:10,601 --> 00:53:13,541
Because even when in a single individual mind,

711
00:53:13,921 --> 00:53:15,161
like even in your own brain,

712
00:53:15,581 --> 00:53:17,241
when you wake up and you decide,

713
00:53:17,341 --> 00:53:18,421
oh, what do I want for breakfast

714
00:53:18,421 --> 00:53:19,361
or what should I do today?

715
00:53:20,221 --> 00:53:21,261
You don't really,

716
00:53:21,381 --> 00:53:25,661
you very rarely have like 100% of the thoughts

717
00:53:25,661 --> 00:53:27,181
or 100% of the neurons

718
00:53:27,181 --> 00:53:28,181
or whatever it would be.

719
00:53:28,181 --> 00:53:35,121
100% of the ideas agreeing that you should, oh, this is exactly what I want to do. I want to

720
00:53:35,121 --> 00:53:39,741
immediately go and get like whatever, an egg McMuffin or something. Usually you have a couple

721
00:53:39,741 --> 00:53:42,821
thoughts in your head where you say, you kind of pulled in a couple of directions at once.

722
00:53:43,061 --> 00:53:47,201
And you say, well, maybe I want to go to the post office and maybe I want to go to

723
00:53:47,201 --> 00:53:54,321
get a bagel. But you don't, when you decide, you go all in on whatever you decided. You don't like

724
00:53:54,321 --> 00:53:59,681
go to a point that's like halfway between the post office and the bakery and then – which

725
00:53:59,681 --> 00:54:03,421
could be in the middle of nowhere and then you just kind of wonder about like – so

726
00:54:03,421 --> 00:54:08,661
when you have these decisions that have all these – so that's – I just think the

727
00:54:08,661 --> 00:54:12,441
bigger problem is consensus is actually a bad idea and what you really want is just

728
00:54:12,441 --> 00:54:19,801
to persuade enough people and that – I think true consensus among human beings has never

729
00:54:19,801 --> 00:54:22,521
been achieved and probably isn't even desirable.

730
00:54:23,781 --> 00:54:28,721
That's like when you have like Peter Thiel had that line about if the voter

731
00:54:28,721 --> 00:54:31,061
turnout is a hundred percent and the guy wins by a hundred percent,

732
00:54:31,181 --> 00:54:34,981
you're probably in North Korea and the election's not real.

733
00:54:35,781 --> 00:54:37,041
So it's bad.

734
00:54:37,121 --> 00:54:39,621
It's better to live in a world where it has a little bit of this messiness.

735
00:54:40,581 --> 00:54:44,021
That is what preserves people's right to dissent in the first place.

736
00:54:44,421 --> 00:54:45,861
And the dissension is good.

737
00:54:46,421 --> 00:54:49,741
Sometimes it breeds creative, creative problem solved.

738
00:54:49,801 --> 00:54:54,841
creative thoughts he you mentioned the accountability aspect and it makes me think like

739
00:54:54,841 --> 00:55:02,261
you know recently x added the feature that it shows the country that an account is posting from

740
00:55:02,261 --> 00:55:09,241
and that's controversial whatever but there i think have been some or at least are some benefits

741
00:55:09,241 --> 00:55:16,361
to like knowing like all of these political propaganda accounts are from malaysia and

742
00:55:16,361 --> 00:55:21,441
envy it's like it's it's been to know that i kind of suspected that already and we talked about the

743
00:55:21,441 --> 00:55:26,361
dead internet theory a little bit like are these bots like are these knots people bots and i think

744
00:55:26,361 --> 00:55:32,441
part of that dead internet theory is is important to at least i think realize that even if they're

745
00:55:32,441 --> 00:55:38,801
not bots if they're indistinguishable from bots what's the difference but back to the accountability

746
00:55:38,801 --> 00:55:49,461
I think that X should add a feature that shows whether or not you put a green box in your profile in 2001 to signal support for Taproot.

747
00:55:49,781 --> 00:55:52,941
So you can't come back and say, oh, I always thought Taproot was a bad idea.

748
00:55:53,361 --> 00:55:53,801
Right?

749
00:55:54,321 --> 00:55:55,621
Because people are doing that.

750
00:55:55,841 --> 00:55:58,621
Kind of like anytime you jumped on the bandwagon.

751
00:55:58,781 --> 00:55:59,461
I would like that.

752
00:55:59,601 --> 00:56:01,521
Anytime they did like the pylon.

753
00:56:02,261 --> 00:56:04,501
And you could say, these are the pylons this person was on.

754
00:56:04,501 --> 00:56:09,681
and then if they pile on someone today you kind of think well okay what's that worth because it's

755
00:56:09,681 --> 00:56:15,121
very easy i mean people learned with the mob and pitchforks that the mob and pitchforks era

756
00:56:15,121 --> 00:56:20,201
innocent until proven guilty and so it's very very easy to just have people freak out and just

757
00:56:20,201 --> 00:56:27,701
stone someone to death for imaginary crimes like witchcraft that are unreal well you know we talked

758
00:56:27,701 --> 00:56:35,981
a little bit about ossification of layer one maybe that's already up here however uh one of the big

759
00:56:35,981 --> 00:56:43,541
trending pieces of fud lately or concerns or just it's the it's the current thing is quantum

760
00:56:43,541 --> 00:56:48,081
computers and quantum computers are going to do you know break bitcoin's going to break

761
00:56:48,081 --> 00:56:51,361
at least the legacy signatures.

762
00:56:52,921 --> 00:56:56,301
And people have proposed solutions,

763
00:56:56,601 --> 00:56:59,221
ways to make Bitcoin quantum resistant,

764
00:56:59,421 --> 00:57:02,181
which would require another fork.

765
00:57:02,801 --> 00:57:04,661
But I'm curious at a high level,

766
00:57:04,781 --> 00:57:07,801
I personally think that quantum computers are plot slot.

767
00:57:08,561 --> 00:57:11,961
I think it's, I'd yet to be convinced

768
00:57:11,961 --> 00:57:15,041
that I should be worried about it

769
00:57:15,041 --> 00:57:19,781
or that it is a practical concern, at least in the near term.

770
00:57:20,501 --> 00:57:21,881
I'm curious about your perspective.

771
00:57:22,221 --> 00:57:26,081
And do you think that this is going to cause some serious problems?

772
00:57:26,461 --> 00:57:29,081
I think this is the perfect thing for a prediction market, by the way.

773
00:57:29,701 --> 00:57:33,561
Well, I agree that this would be an ideal prediction market thing

774
00:57:33,561 --> 00:57:37,401
because it is something where a lot of people are clearly like bullshitting

775
00:57:37,401 --> 00:57:39,621
and they have a strong opinion that they say they have,

776
00:57:39,681 --> 00:57:41,741
but they don't really know what they're talking about.

777
00:57:42,041 --> 00:57:44,801
This was like one of the nice examples I used to use for prediction markets

778
00:57:44,801 --> 00:57:49,861
was like global warming because the phrase global warming is actually really, really vague,

779
00:57:50,121 --> 00:57:53,781
which helps make it a political football, but helps make it much harder.

780
00:57:54,041 --> 00:57:57,661
So you could change the question in very many ways, which I did.

781
00:57:58,161 --> 00:58:03,321
And I could say when people bet on this, they can bet on like what will, as reported by this satellite,

782
00:58:03,541 --> 00:58:07,081
what will the average surface temperature anomaly be?

783
00:58:07,301 --> 00:58:10,781
Like there's this NASA satellite that's just like pointed over this part of the ocean,

784
00:58:11,101 --> 00:58:13,161
and it just tracks the temperature like every day.

785
00:58:13,161 --> 00:58:17,461
and then they just point at to like what is it you know compared to what it normally is

786
00:58:17,461 --> 00:58:24,261
at this time of year and um so when you make it more specific then suddenly it becomes a more

787
00:58:24,261 --> 00:58:28,981
productive conversation and even the creativity increases where people can say something like

788
00:58:28,981 --> 00:58:33,101
okay well that's not really what i meant oh well then what did you mean oh well then maybe we'll

789
00:58:33,101 --> 00:58:37,881
bet on this oh maybe we'll bet on something else that's like easier to measure like co2 concentration

790
00:58:37,881 --> 00:58:42,301
is like way easier to measure than global warming because global warming is like this vague thing

791
00:58:42,301 --> 00:58:45,261
So I think quantum computers is a very good example of that.

792
00:58:45,541 --> 00:58:50,441
I think the problem with quantum computing is that you have to be a specialist in quantum computers to know the truth.

793
00:58:51,181 --> 00:58:52,481
None of the three of us are.

794
00:58:52,721 --> 00:58:57,421
Even someone who's a specialist in Bitcoin is not necessarily also a specialist in quantum computers.

795
00:58:57,941 --> 00:59:02,021
Of course, some people have looked into it more than others.

796
00:59:02,021 --> 00:59:08,021
And again, Robin Linus, we hosted a debate on the quantum computer threat.

797
00:59:08,021 --> 00:59:15,321
It was a Twitter space, so people should be able to find it on the Layer 2 Labs Twitter account or should be able to find it somewhere.

798
00:59:16,241 --> 00:59:18,641
And we heard lots of arguments about that.

799
00:59:19,681 --> 00:59:33,821
But I think, you know, really, I don't think there has been a verified example of a quantum computer factoring the number 35 or something yet.

800
00:59:33,821 --> 00:59:46,981
So – and they are really complicated to build because you have to like basically make it so that not a single photon of light escapes because then the universes will split or something.

801
00:59:47,641 --> 00:59:50,021
So you have to be able to recombine later.

802
00:59:50,241 --> 00:59:51,001
Yeah, it's pretty weird.

803
00:59:52,861 --> 00:59:53,821
So –

804
00:59:53,821 --> 00:59:57,301
The concept that we already talked about, the concept of consensus.

805
00:59:57,301 --> 01:00:04,581
i i'm too retarded to elaborate but i just feel like the concept of consensus when it comes to

806
01:00:04,581 --> 01:00:12,061
any sort of outcome in quantum computing is going to be a problem like all right you were able to

807
01:00:12,061 --> 01:00:22,481
observe some sort of outcome from this quantum computing task how is that relevant to any other

808
01:00:22,481 --> 01:00:31,281
person any other observer in the world and any in this uh realm whatever you want to call it it's

809
01:00:31,281 --> 01:00:35,361
like all right you did something cool with quantum computers and you got a bunch of data but like

810
01:00:35,361 --> 01:00:40,641
what does that mean to me the cool thing would be if they could if they could just like break

811
01:00:40,641 --> 01:00:45,441
rsa or something at will like for everyone you could just go to a site and be like okay factor

812
01:00:45,441 --> 01:00:50,841
this unbelievably enormous number into two primes and it would just do it for you every single time

813
01:00:50,841 --> 01:00:58,501
that would be like you that would break all that um that would break all that encryption and then

814
01:00:58,501 --> 01:01:02,941
that would just be permanently broken for everyone and then you know there's a lot of like conspiracy

815
01:01:02,941 --> 01:01:07,381
theory shaped stuff like of course this has like some like because since the military uses encryption

816
01:01:07,381 --> 01:01:13,201
this has like some ability so maybe there's secret computers in china or secret computers in america

817
01:01:13,201 --> 01:01:18,381
or whatever the cia black side has the computer and and and they're they're going to get it before

818
01:01:18,381 --> 01:01:19,841
everyone else and stuff like that.

819
01:01:20,161 --> 01:01:24,981
So unfortunately, it is a situation where it is hard to tell what's going on because

820
01:01:24,981 --> 01:01:40,593
on the other side some quantum computers as I understand it have been demonstrated to exist whereas with like four qubits or something they have those working And there this other thing called the Mach interferometer

821
01:01:41,173 --> 01:01:43,493
which is not a quantum computer per se,

822
01:01:43,613 --> 01:01:45,873
but it's basically a thing with mirrors and photons.

823
01:01:45,873 --> 01:01:51,853
And it kind of basically proves that the quantum computer is possible

824
01:01:51,853 --> 01:01:53,093
because it does like something.

825
01:01:53,273 --> 01:01:54,993
It's like basically bounces light off of a mirror

826
01:01:54,993 --> 01:01:58,213
and it never arrives at some other mirror that it could arrive at.

827
01:01:58,213 --> 01:02:02,333
So these things are all real, I mean, as far as I understand it.

828
01:02:03,553 --> 01:02:14,353
And so it's hard to know like what on earth – and I also think it's inevitable that a quantum computer will be constructed at some point in human history.

829
01:02:16,993 --> 01:02:27,573
It's also the case that the quantum computer, I don't think it will be like switching from like a black and white TV to a color TV where you would never go back.

830
01:02:28,213 --> 01:02:35,373
I think the quantum computer will always be worse than the classical computer at many types of computing.

831
01:02:36,413 --> 01:02:39,273
And it's first because it's so much more expensive and difficult to build.

832
01:02:39,393 --> 01:02:41,473
It has to be like cool to absolute zero or whatever.

833
01:02:42,133 --> 01:02:42,993
I'm not sure.

834
01:02:43,173 --> 01:02:44,693
Don't quote me on these details.

835
01:02:44,693 --> 01:02:49,553
But the point is it's like extremely difficult to like a science project to like get the quantum computer to work.

836
01:02:49,553 --> 01:02:56,233
whereas we're much better at just normal CPU, graphics card, et cetera,

837
01:02:56,773 --> 01:02:59,673
that uses 120 volts of electricity coming out of the wall.

838
01:03:00,493 --> 01:03:06,253
So I think only in a few cases can you actually take advantage of the quantumness.

839
01:03:06,773 --> 01:03:08,953
So I think it will be kind of a niche thing.

840
01:03:09,533 --> 01:03:10,593
But yeah, I don't actually know.

841
01:03:10,693 --> 01:03:11,893
I mean you asked me about my opinion.

842
01:03:12,053 --> 01:03:13,293
The thing is I really have no idea.

843
01:03:13,293 --> 01:03:17,193
I think the prediction market on it would be a good – we would say is there –

844
01:03:17,193 --> 01:03:19,493
what we would want to know, and again, this is a case of,

845
01:03:19,553 --> 01:03:22,773
the clarifying effect of the prediction market text where you would say,

846
01:03:22,873 --> 01:03:26,273
will there be a site where you can just break, you know,

847
01:03:26,373 --> 01:03:30,093
4,000 bit RSA or something by this date?

848
01:03:30,513 --> 01:03:34,253
And then people would just bet on no because I think it probably,

849
01:03:34,353 --> 01:03:37,333
but maybe there would be a bunch of people out there who know that it will

850
01:03:37,333 --> 01:03:38,233
happen by certain.

851
01:03:38,353 --> 01:03:40,053
You could have them for different dates and you could see, Oh,

852
01:03:40,053 --> 01:03:42,573
the probabilities are really, really low for the first two years,

853
01:03:42,573 --> 01:03:44,373
but then they're really, really high.

854
01:03:45,093 --> 01:03:46,713
So all that would be, that's a better.

855
01:03:46,713 --> 01:03:54,593
To me, the prediction market represents consensus in a much more helpful way than the idea of until we'll just talk until everyone agrees.

856
01:03:55,393 --> 01:03:56,733
I think that is useless.

857
01:03:56,893 --> 01:03:59,013
But the prediction market always returns one number.

858
01:03:59,573 --> 01:04:05,393
And you can see that a market context is one where you have people who disagree completely, often fighting each other.

859
01:04:06,173 --> 01:04:14,733
You have like the big short or you have betting on zero or whatever, or you have like the Herbalife thing, or you have Theranos or whatever.

860
01:04:14,733 --> 01:04:17,373
you have the stuff where there's stuff is a certain market price.

861
01:04:18,093 --> 01:04:20,933
The market price is a product of intense disagreement,

862
01:04:20,933 --> 01:04:24,213
but it's like a tug of war and the price lands where it is.

863
01:04:24,253 --> 01:04:24,773
And then that's,

864
01:04:24,773 --> 01:04:26,233
that's the price.

865
01:04:26,633 --> 01:04:27,273
So yeah,

866
01:04:27,293 --> 01:04:27,933
I would definitely,

867
01:04:28,173 --> 01:04:29,473
whatever the prediction market says,

868
01:04:29,573 --> 01:04:31,153
I would defer to.

869
01:04:31,433 --> 01:04:31,673
And I,

870
01:04:31,793 --> 01:04:33,453
but I do think the word quantum,

871
01:04:33,453 --> 01:04:36,173
it just has this weird effect on people where it's just these,

872
01:04:36,233 --> 01:04:37,633
one of these fancy sounding words.

873
01:04:37,733 --> 01:04:38,693
So everyone wants to have,

874
01:04:39,033 --> 01:04:41,733
it triggers people to be more idealistic.

875
01:04:42,993 --> 01:04:43,733
I think psychologically,

876
01:04:43,733 --> 01:04:44,413
psychologically.

877
01:04:45,573 --> 01:04:54,633
What do you think the timeline is for Start9 to develop a home quantum server for the plebs

878
01:04:54,633 --> 01:04:55,813
that they can buy for $900?

879
01:04:56,173 --> 01:04:56,393
Yeah.

880
01:04:56,673 --> 01:05:00,013
When will you be able to just click a button, right, and just download the quantum computer?

881
01:05:02,273 --> 01:05:02,753
Yeah.

882
01:05:03,233 --> 01:05:09,193
I mean, this is funny too about like the – like you should run a full node.

883
01:05:09,193 --> 01:05:13,353
It's like part of the Ten Commandments of Bitcoin or something.

884
01:05:13,733 --> 01:05:16,673
And it's like the most sacred thing.

885
01:05:16,753 --> 01:05:17,813
And then people don't do that.

886
01:05:17,913 --> 01:05:25,353
And then it's always funny when people say stuff like, oh, you should make it easier to run a full node or stuff like that.

887
01:05:25,393 --> 01:05:28,533
And then Casa had the, oh, we'll just send you a full node.

888
01:05:28,953 --> 01:05:36,033
And then I saw Jameson Lopp, I think it was in the Miami Beach conference, which is maybe like 2022 or 2023, one of those.

889
01:05:36,813 --> 01:05:38,833
And I was like, oh, yeah, that's the Casa product.

890
01:05:38,893 --> 01:05:39,453
It's really great.

891
01:05:39,493 --> 01:05:40,933
And he's like, we discontinued that.

892
01:05:41,573 --> 01:05:43,393
And then I was like, oh, this is embarrassing.

893
01:05:43,733 --> 01:05:49,933
for me. But, and then I was like, why? And he said, because the support was too difficult.

894
01:05:50,113 --> 01:05:54,873
Because of course, people would get it. This is an intriguing idea also. It's like people would get,

895
01:05:56,753 --> 01:06:00,233
it's all related to like what you were saying, like, okay, someone says they have a quantum

896
01:06:00,233 --> 01:06:06,473
computer, what does it mean? And it's kind of like, you have a full node, people only do it

897
01:06:06,473 --> 01:06:10,213
because they're told to do it. They don't really know what it means. So even if you ship them the

898
01:06:10,213 --> 01:06:14,053
full node they don't know like how to operate it or what it's they don't know what it's like what's

899
01:06:14,053 --> 01:06:17,293
the difference between when it's working versus not working they don't even know the difference

900
01:06:17,293 --> 01:06:23,833
some same as the quantum computer like okay what's the difference between we have we have quantum

901
01:06:23,833 --> 01:06:31,213
computing versus we don't they don't know what knows so the full node if it doesn't like explain

902
01:06:31,213 --> 01:06:40,433
itself to the user and kind of like persuade the user, then it's useless because the user

903
01:06:40,433 --> 01:06:44,853
is trying to, they have to use the full node for something, even if it's just like, look

904
01:06:44,853 --> 01:06:49,253
at the blockchain or measure confirmations on transactions that are going to them.

905
01:06:50,773 --> 01:06:59,793
I think like, so the idea of start nine might be a contradiction.

906
01:07:00,313 --> 01:07:00,953
Maybe not.

907
01:07:00,953 --> 01:07:01,433
I don't know.

908
01:07:01,533 --> 01:07:03,453
But the idea of like we'll just do it all for you.

909
01:07:03,533 --> 01:07:09,073
I mean I'm all in favor of – we have our own thing, BitWindow, where it's like you download BitWindow, which is small.

910
01:07:10,253 --> 01:07:12,673
And then BitWindow lets you download like you can download Bitcoin Core.

911
01:07:12,873 --> 01:07:14,833
You can download the Bit300, 301 Enforcer.

912
01:07:14,973 --> 01:07:16,133
You can download like other stuff.

913
01:07:17,193 --> 01:07:20,013
And so we have like our own little like kind of like a start nine thing.

914
01:07:20,973 --> 01:07:22,053
So I like that.

915
01:07:22,133 --> 01:07:24,613
And I like the idea of the user being able to like zoom in.

916
01:07:24,613 --> 01:07:33,853
and they only commit to a tiny little 50 megabyte piece of software at first.

917
01:07:34,193 --> 01:07:38,213
Then they can download the wallet and do other stuff.

918
01:07:38,313 --> 01:07:39,773
Then they can download maybe Bitcoin Core,

919
01:07:39,773 --> 01:07:45,413
which will ask them for 800 gigabytes or 900 gigabytes.

920
01:07:46,213 --> 01:07:48,073
So you kind of ramp people up.

921
01:07:49,233 --> 01:07:50,613
But yeah, it's a good question.

922
01:07:50,613 --> 01:07:54,913
When will there be the quantum nine or whatever?

923
01:07:55,693 --> 01:07:59,013
Have you ever considered starting your own university?

924
01:07:59,633 --> 01:08:02,993
Like this is something that the Nazis have realized.

925
01:08:03,213 --> 01:08:04,353
They've been very successful.

926
01:08:05,453 --> 01:08:11,273
You know, university professors like Matthew Crowder are very effective at indoctrinating the youth.

927
01:08:12,533 --> 01:08:15,873
A lot of the stuff that you've talked about on this show, this is like, you know,

928
01:08:15,873 --> 01:08:21,633
master's level college curriculum in my opinion in the bitcoin world

929
01:08:21,633 --> 01:08:27,333
i'm just curious if you ever thought about starting a university

930
01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:35,713
well i mean who how can we when matt cratter is doing such a great job i was like well this is

931
01:08:35,713 --> 01:08:39,833
another thing that i thought i might make like i've had like various like kind of feuds with

932
01:08:39,833 --> 01:08:46,033
people and then like literally like like clockwork it's like only six to 18 months later they get

933
01:08:46,033 --> 01:08:51,693
like canceled by the bitcoin community so i'm like a canary in the coal mine this goes way back i mean

934
01:08:51,693 --> 01:08:56,213
ancient ancient days but there was like i had like a funny feud with like emin gonsire in like 2014

935
01:08:56,213 --> 01:09:02,333
or something he blocked me on twitter and like scaling bitcoin one era and then like after that

936
01:09:02,333 --> 01:09:08,753
everyone like uh decided they didn't like him or whatever but this goes back a long a long and even

937
01:09:08,753 --> 01:09:16,133
shinobi like shinobi is like one of the chief drive chain haters but then like uh he's still

938
01:09:16,133 --> 01:09:21,073
around but people kind of figured out that he is just a soundbite that he just calls people

939
01:09:21,073 --> 01:09:26,473
retarded and he doesn't actually have that many like real ideas himself and he's just like it's

940
01:09:26,473 --> 01:09:35,613
kind of it is what it is so um but yeah i think that's the thing is um do people if people really

941
01:09:35,613 --> 01:09:40,973
want to learn like the whole uh i'm actually a huge beneficiary of school per se i got like

942
01:09:40,973 --> 01:09:46,133
multiple master's degrees and also career in academia but as an individual i'm very pessimistic

943
01:09:46,133 --> 01:09:52,373
about school and i have become like a school skeptic and like a radical anti-school person

944
01:09:52,373 --> 01:09:57,033
i think school is a waste of time for most people now you can get on youtube you have your podcast

945
01:09:57,033 --> 01:10:02,553
you got your youtube you can play something and you can pause it and go back and rewind and

946
01:10:02,553 --> 01:10:08,013
And you can track the person down on Twitter and say, hey, what did you mean by this?

947
01:10:08,513 --> 01:10:13,953
They'll probably answer you even if they're whatever, professor of chemistry or something.

948
01:10:14,233 --> 01:10:15,133
So it depends.

949
01:10:15,833 --> 01:10:17,673
And I think that will only improve.

950
01:10:17,873 --> 01:10:26,053
Over time, we'll have something like the Telegram Stars thing where if you want to message someone for the first time, you have to pay $5, $10.

951
01:10:26,533 --> 01:10:27,893
But then it keeps the thing open.

952
01:10:28,053 --> 01:10:29,753
So that deters spam.

953
01:10:29,753 --> 01:10:36,433
So now if you're like a chemistry PhD and you put out a video on something weird, like we had that – what was that called?

954
01:10:37,094 --> 01:10:39,333
That like K99 or something.

955
01:10:39,453 --> 01:10:42,653
It was supposed to be like the room temperature super magnet or something.

956
01:10:43,413 --> 01:10:46,113
It's kind of like if you have something, you can just put it out.

957
01:10:46,373 --> 01:10:53,513
And then if it's really important, someone will be able to find like the $10, $15 to message you and say, oh, I think I found a mistake in your video.

958
01:10:53,594 --> 01:10:57,613
Or I think what you're doing is really important and I want to finance your operation.

959
01:10:57,613 --> 01:11:02,533
you can now it'll be much easier for the internet to get people in touch with each other

960
01:11:02,533 --> 01:11:09,513
um and so i think uh and then they have the ai tutor so i'm like totally against all forms of

961
01:11:09,513 --> 01:11:15,053
school i mean i know your question is partly to bring up matt cratter but i was just like

962
01:11:15,053 --> 01:11:20,013
the this whole premise that there's going to be a curriculum and there's going to be a teacher

963
01:11:20,013 --> 01:11:27,393
even and that people are going to pay 790 dollars yeah well i think it's ridiculous that i can't i

964
01:11:27,393 --> 01:11:29,473
I can't believe how many people take it.

965
01:11:29,473 --> 01:11:34,613
There is a guy, I go to many different Bitcoin meetups around the world and in Connecticut

966
01:11:34,613 --> 01:11:37,373
and in Miami where I've lived and in San Francisco and I live there.

967
01:11:37,513 --> 01:11:39,213
There's always these Bitcoin meetups.

968
01:11:40,053 --> 01:11:43,633
And yeah, you can find some people who like the Bitcoin University content.

969
01:11:43,813 --> 01:11:55,646
But I just think like why do they like it Because every time and then he ends it with the thing saying pay a lot of money to subscribe to like this thing And I just don think like why doesn that discredit him more

970
01:11:55,786 --> 01:11:57,226
It's so like no one else.

971
01:11:57,326 --> 01:12:00,206
Where else would anyone imagine if like Adam Back did something like that?

972
01:12:00,206 --> 01:12:03,806
I've never heard of like anyone, even people who have like sold out.

973
01:12:03,806 --> 01:12:10,106
They crucified Natalie Brunel for her $800 course in 2001.

974
01:12:10,646 --> 01:12:11,566
Maybe it's the $800.

975
01:12:11,666 --> 01:12:12,706
Maybe that's the threshold.

976
01:12:12,846 --> 01:12:14,826
If it's $800 or more, it's unreasonable.

977
01:12:14,826 --> 01:12:20,746
If it's $790, you've got like the Costco pricing model, gets past the filters.

978
01:12:21,406 --> 01:12:22,546
That's a very good point.

979
01:12:22,746 --> 01:12:27,066
I remember when she was – people wouldn't let her hit the end of it.

980
01:12:27,206 --> 01:12:29,586
And it's kind of like if people – because Bitcoin is confusing.

981
01:12:30,166 --> 01:12:40,406
So if someone could actually teach it and if people found it helpful, I can definitely imagine that there being a market for that.

982
01:12:40,406 --> 01:12:44,906
But yeah, I think it's depressing, especially because he clearly doesn't know very much.

983
01:12:45,866 --> 01:12:49,146
So that's the other thing is I don't know like where he gets his information.

984
01:12:50,186 --> 01:12:53,086
It's certainly like not great, whatever it is.

985
01:12:53,166 --> 01:13:01,486
I think he kind of gets it from Jimmy Song or something too, which is kind of funny because Jimmy Song is also – he's like kind of like an old – I would consider him a friend or whatever.

986
01:13:02,126 --> 01:13:09,426
But he's also not that – even though he's often like an expert witness in court and something on Bitcoin, he has his book.

987
01:13:09,426 --> 01:13:15,226
But he's also like not super, super, super great, I would say, but he's definitely better than many.

988
01:13:16,366 --> 01:13:22,006
And but yeah, like it's kind of like what is the food chain and who is who's getting their information from who.

989
01:13:22,386 --> 01:13:31,266
But in this modern time, I'm just I just think like if you're a self-directed learner, first of all, everyone is a self-directed learner.

990
01:13:31,266 --> 01:13:37,686
Like it's not like you can't like steal someone's attention like against their will.

991
01:13:37,806 --> 01:13:38,806
It doesn't really happen.

992
01:13:38,806 --> 01:13:53,486
I mean, maybe in some really bizarre scenarios, you could argue stuff like if someone's starving to death and then they smell food or something or something like extremely highly engineered like AI pornography or something could maybe like hijack your attention.

993
01:13:53,606 --> 01:13:57,626
But really not like in a serious sense like over a long period of time.

994
01:13:58,406 --> 01:14:01,066
People, they either want to learn something or they don't.

995
01:14:01,066 --> 01:14:07,386
And if they want to learn, now they will be able to, I think, with a decent amount.

996
01:14:07,386 --> 01:14:15,126
They just need a little bit of money for their – they just need internet or they could use the free – plenty of places have free Wi-Fi these days.

997
01:14:16,366 --> 01:14:22,966
So even a really, really poor off person will be able to – it's like a – it's a giant library.

998
01:14:23,286 --> 01:14:27,026
The internet is a giant library in addition to the other things that it is.

999
01:14:27,026 --> 01:14:36,426
It's a huge library and it has something that every school could only dream of having.

1000
01:14:36,426 --> 01:14:52,206
Like it would even be beyond the imagination of, you know, there would be, it would be impossible for Montessori or Socrates or any of these people to imagine the type of learning opportunity that is available today to literally like something like 4 billion people.

1001
01:14:52,746 --> 01:14:53,966
It would be impossible.

1002
01:14:54,286 --> 01:14:57,286
So I, and now this makes me even more skeptical of regular school.

1003
01:14:57,286 --> 01:15:08,726
I think regular school is now really wasting kids' time when it's now – the opportunity cost is very high since they could now learn anything they want and they could learn literally whatever their hearts desire.

1004
01:15:09,266 --> 01:15:23,066
And if all they want to do is learn about Roblox and Call of Duty meta or something, then I think that's fine because eventually these people will all become adults and they'll have to decide, oh, do I want to have more money?

1005
01:15:23,166 --> 01:15:25,746
Do I want a better future for my – do I want to have a girlfriend or whatever?

1006
01:15:26,126 --> 01:15:27,826
Do I have a better future for my family?

1007
01:15:28,246 --> 01:15:30,166
And people will just decide whatever they decide.

1008
01:15:30,166 --> 01:15:43,866
And all these attempts to curate the curriculum or to get children to learn a certain thing that people think they should learn or they learn Bitcoin the way someone else thinks they should learn it.

1009
01:15:43,986 --> 01:15:46,886
All this stuff has ended up backfiring, I think, and it's a waste of time.

1010
01:15:51,846 --> 01:15:55,626
But yeah, Matt Cratter, like, you know, what do you really – I mean, how much does he really know about Bitcoin?

1011
01:15:55,746 --> 01:16:01,426
that's the other thing is like these people show up like after 2020 it's like okay like that's more

1012
01:16:01,426 --> 01:16:12,626
than 10 years in i'm just gonna turn this light so yeah i don't know um what but yeah i guess

1013
01:16:12,626 --> 01:16:20,066
that's how you want to he's got he's got a product to sell so everyone's got to eat

1014
01:16:20,066 --> 01:16:29,346
trinkets for the plebs selling solutions it's a great business model um

1015
01:16:29,346 --> 01:16:38,926
so we i think we're gonna transition here in a minute to the end of the show but uh

1016
01:16:38,926 --> 01:16:44,066
you know i'm curious paul uh do you have any favorite polish jokes

1017
01:16:44,066 --> 01:16:53,646
polish jokes yeah i know a few um i mean the best one is the norm mcdonald joke

1018
01:16:53,646 --> 01:16:58,106
that do you know this joke about the sandwich shop i don't want to tell it because it takes

1019
01:16:58,106 --> 01:17:02,246
too long but just look it's great i don't and i don't want to do it where norm mcdonald can do it

1020
01:17:02,246 --> 01:17:06,606
better than but yeah i mean everyone knows about oh why did the polish navy sink the polish

1021
01:17:06,606 --> 01:17:13,526
submarine say oh they left the screen door open i mean a classic um but the the norm mcdonald

1022
01:17:13,526 --> 01:17:14,606
sandwich joke is

1023
01:17:14,606 --> 01:17:17,226
it's very old but

1024
01:17:17,226 --> 01:17:19,346
and just no one can tell it like

1025
01:17:19,346 --> 01:17:21,486
you know you gotta some jokes need a great

1026
01:17:21,486 --> 01:17:23,586
delivery and to have him

1027
01:17:23,586 --> 01:17:24,966
run on that joke for

1028
01:17:24,966 --> 01:17:27,606
three minutes on like

1029
01:17:27,606 --> 01:17:29,686
basically international broadcast television

1030
01:17:29,686 --> 01:17:31,746
that's

1031
01:17:31,746 --> 01:17:32,926
just but yeah

1032
01:17:32,926 --> 01:17:35,546
it's funny about the you know like where did

1033
01:17:35,546 --> 01:17:36,846
the stereotype even come from

1034
01:17:36,846 --> 01:17:39,246
you know because I know a lot of Polish people

1035
01:17:39,246 --> 01:17:41,446
all very bright

1036
01:17:41,446 --> 01:17:43,386
but you know hey a

1037
01:17:43,386 --> 01:17:51,546
stereotype is a stereotype. What can you do? Are you, are you relieved that, uh, like the most,

1038
01:17:51,546 --> 01:17:57,546
I guess, controversial or disliked in a green group is now the Somalis and the people leave

1039
01:17:57,546 --> 01:18:02,846
the Polish alone? The Polish, you know, everyone's got to have like the little time, right? So then

1040
01:18:02,846 --> 01:18:08,146
it was like Irish need not apply. And then, so if people have their time, I, you know, I, we should

1041
01:18:08,146 --> 01:18:12,386
leave it to maybe the sociologists to determine like, what is the time window? You know, how much

1042
01:18:12,386 --> 01:18:18,446
time do you have to you put in your hours but yeah then a lot of people even like uh i was thinking

1043
01:18:18,446 --> 01:18:24,546
when i saw that movie in theaters uh gran torino he's like has an extremely on the nose like polish

1044
01:18:24,546 --> 01:18:29,686
name like kowalski or something and i was kind of like oh like and then it's like polish and then

1045
01:18:29,686 --> 01:18:35,886
there's like the asian korean family is like moving in so i was like oh now polish that was

1046
01:18:35,886 --> 01:18:41,606
like 2005 or something and i was like that's like polish is now officially like old guard

1047
01:18:41,606 --> 01:18:48,426
american it's like you know you're in like whatever you're like a virginian you're like a

1048
01:18:48,426 --> 01:18:55,206
you're like a puritan so you're like a massachusetts bay colony full i was thinking

1049
01:18:55,206 --> 01:19:01,206
so i don't remember when that movie exactly came out but i was even thinking this is way in so you

1050
01:19:01,206 --> 01:19:02,866
You know, everyone's like, you're way in.

1051
01:19:04,586 --> 01:19:06,206
For America, the melting pot.

1052
01:19:07,386 --> 01:19:20,346
And yeah, certainly, you know, it's hard to know online, like whenever there's a political story, because you got the online derangement, and then you got people's politics.

1053
01:19:21,826 --> 01:19:24,746
But yeah, that does seem like if one-tenth of those stories are true about.

1054
01:19:25,246 --> 01:19:28,686
And then, of course, the other funny thing about Minnesota is it was like extremely Scandinavian.

1055
01:19:28,686 --> 01:19:33,506
And the Scandinavians have a very good work ethic, some would say.

1056
01:19:35,006 --> 01:19:44,226
And they're very – so then they're always – people are always like, oh, why doesn't – socialism works for Norway and why couldn't it work and whatever.

1057
01:19:45,346 --> 01:19:48,566
But I think this is true.

1058
01:19:48,666 --> 01:19:49,226
Maybe it's not.

1059
01:19:49,386 --> 01:19:50,066
Someone could look it up.

1060
01:19:50,106 --> 01:19:56,986
But I think Minnesota is like extremely – was mostly – was very Scandinavian and now they let in all Somalians.

1061
01:19:56,986 --> 01:20:01,666
So, but yeah, we're living through some interesting times.

1062
01:20:01,826 --> 01:20:08,566
There was a time I've noticed that for a while, like being a racist was like the worst thing you could be.

1063
01:20:08,606 --> 01:20:10,566
It was like being a pedophile or whatever.

1064
01:20:11,626 --> 01:20:20,066
And then, but now we're living, we're slowly living through an era where like race-based arguments.

1065
01:20:20,406 --> 01:20:20,726
Racist-based.

1066
01:20:21,146 --> 01:20:22,886
Coming back, phasing back in.

1067
01:20:23,026 --> 01:20:25,066
I don't know what that portends.

1068
01:20:25,066 --> 01:20:30,586
You know, obviously a lot of prejudice in addition to other.

1069
01:20:31,486 --> 01:20:33,846
Well, you have the prejudice already exists.

1070
01:20:34,086 --> 01:20:40,106
I think at this point, it's like policing a few types of prejudices.

1071
01:20:40,366 --> 01:20:44,886
It just seems hypocritical because you have prejudice about everything else.

1072
01:20:46,286 --> 01:20:47,226
Yeah, people only.

1073
01:20:47,766 --> 01:20:53,066
It's the same as the specialist versus generalist idea where people don't have enough time to make an in-depth investigation.

1074
01:20:53,066 --> 01:20:58,246
investigation of every single thing they come across that wouldn't make any sense to the point

1075
01:20:58,246 --> 01:21:07,786
about x adding the location there's definitely one case where it's kind of like justified where

1076
01:21:07,786 --> 01:21:12,666
the account is like clearly some kind of nationalist account of some country and then the

1077
01:21:12,666 --> 01:21:18,126
person is from a different country so it's like pro america underscore usa and it's like the

1078
01:21:18,126 --> 01:21:23,106
the eagle and like whatever and then they the accounts like not from the u.s it's like from

1079
01:21:23,106 --> 01:21:28,986
russia or something and you're like what the heck so some x i think x should if they if they notice

1080
01:21:28,986 --> 01:21:35,146
any kind of like overt fraud they should like let everyone know like by the way this account is a

1081
01:21:35,146 --> 01:21:40,086
fraud and you shouldn't listen to them they're lying to everyone so i think that's i thought

1082
01:21:40,086 --> 01:21:46,386
that was funny they exposed the in miles strong for you know he's very very patriotic and he's

1083
01:21:46,386 --> 01:21:47,426
not even been in the United States.

1084
01:21:47,426 --> 01:21:49,466
He's based out of Malaysia, I think.

1085
01:21:49,466 --> 01:21:54,866
And he went on a defense of, despite not being an American,

1086
01:21:54,866 --> 01:21:57,686
despite not living here, why he was patriotic.

1087
01:21:57,686 --> 01:22:02,406
And I think that a lot of it is because agencies, companies,

1088
01:22:02,406 --> 01:22:05,806
they're paying these foreign accounts to be patriotic,

1089
01:22:05,858 --> 01:22:11,638
to uh post about certain messages and i don't think that that's right i think as long as you

1090
01:22:11,638 --> 01:22:16,938
have homeless veterans and poor american citizens who you could pay them to be patriotic we shouldn't

1091
01:22:16,938 --> 01:22:22,078
be paying foreigners to be patriotic well it's obviously the whole thing is very sketchy and it's

1092
01:22:22,078 --> 01:22:27,858
it is fraud at a certain point uh and many of the times it's not just that the account like the

1093
01:22:27,858 --> 01:22:33,118
account has like a screen name it's not just the name the whole personality of the account is like

1094
01:22:33,118 --> 01:22:37,238
this it'll have like tweets these are the type of people we're letting into our country and then

1095
01:22:37,238 --> 01:22:43,018
it's like the person's not even from there and so you're kind of like so the whole personality i

1096
01:22:43,018 --> 01:22:47,978
think there were a few uk ones that i saw where they had people had screenshotted like all the

1097
01:22:47,978 --> 01:22:53,738
tweets the name and then it was like the location at the bottom and it doesn't add up and we know

1098
01:22:53,738 --> 01:22:59,918
that there are you know that there are bot farms and we know that there are you know proxies and so

1099
01:22:59,918 --> 01:23:08,778
So I think that is – I mean it's unfortunate because X has to decide the more – what do they want people to think when they see a tweet?

1100
01:23:08,778 --> 01:23:12,638
Do they want to think, oh, this is just spam that might be a bot?

1101
01:23:12,958 --> 01:23:22,658
Or do they want to think, oh, this is something that I should – someone really took time out of their day and they thought about this for a little while and they wrote this tweet because they wanted people to read it.

1102
01:23:22,758 --> 01:23:28,078
And they wanted it to be a tweet for the ages and to go down in history and be part of the record of human thought.

1103
01:23:28,078 --> 01:23:58,058
And so if they want that, they're going to have you.

1104
01:23:58,078 --> 01:24:02,118
even if that's a side effect of why it exists and is not the number one reason,

1105
01:24:03,138 --> 01:24:07,198
you could have shows and even there were some shows that had like an educational dimension

1106
01:24:07,198 --> 01:24:11,018
or an activist dimension, but they were actually still pretty good

1107
01:24:11,018 --> 01:24:12,858
and a lot of people watched them.

1108
01:24:14,238 --> 01:24:20,078
And so you could say X, even though X exists for whoever's paying

1109
01:24:20,078 --> 01:24:24,618
and for the advertisers and the investors and the people who buy premium or whatever,

1110
01:24:24,618 --> 01:24:29,598
that it could still, it still has to decide,

1111
01:24:29,678 --> 01:24:32,718
does it want to care about being a place

1112
01:24:32,718 --> 01:24:36,498
where people kind of are honest?

1113
01:24:36,598 --> 01:24:37,498
And if they're not honest,

1114
01:24:37,498 --> 01:24:39,098
then what's the point of reading it?

1115
01:24:39,138 --> 01:24:40,938
It's all just like a kind of a crapshoot.

1116
01:24:41,978 --> 01:24:42,298
So...

1117
01:24:42,298 --> 01:24:44,278
Yeah, flood slop sells,

1118
01:24:44,578 --> 01:24:47,418
but it doesn't mean flood slop can't be interesting.

1119
01:24:47,598 --> 01:24:49,198
It doesn't mean a flood slop can make you cry.

1120
01:24:49,198 --> 01:24:51,478
It doesn't mean public flood slop can make you think,

1121
01:24:51,478 --> 01:24:58,558
have think something feel creative you know i mean it can be good it can be interesting it can

1122
01:24:58,558 --> 01:25:07,898
be beneficial yeah even the slop has some nutritional value i assume do you do you think

1123
01:25:07,898 --> 01:25:16,058
that x should uh devise some sort of purity test for what a bitcoiner is so that if somebody's

1124
01:25:16,058 --> 01:25:23,378
tweeting about bitcoin it says whether they're a bitcoiner or not it's i mean there was a site

1125
01:25:23,378 --> 01:25:31,618
during the block size war where you could like sign the message with your wallet or endorse it

1126
01:25:31,618 --> 01:25:37,938
and so there was like a leaderboard of something that maybe only one person had written but like

1127
01:25:37,938 --> 01:25:42,718
was endorsed by these accounts that had like tens of thousands of coins and so there would be like

1128
01:25:42,718 --> 01:25:46,578
a leaderboard where it got up to like 400,000 coins or something.

1129
01:25:48,798 --> 01:25:52,998
And I think that definitely had some advantages,

1130
01:25:53,798 --> 01:25:54,898
but I don't know how much it really –

1131
01:25:54,898 --> 01:25:57,918
because it was funny that originally that site came out.

1132
01:25:58,618 --> 01:26:00,598
Then it was like a small blocker.

1133
01:26:01,278 --> 01:26:02,758
Small blockers had the edge,

1134
01:26:03,178 --> 01:26:05,738
and then some people started citing them,

1135
01:26:05,738 --> 01:26:06,838
and then word got out,

1136
01:26:06,958 --> 01:26:10,698
and then a large blocker argument got higher.

1137
01:26:10,698 --> 01:26:18,298
That also had an interesting side effect that it also made people care about exactly how they worded the claim.

1138
01:26:18,738 --> 01:26:25,358
So they dialed back the rhetoric to try to make it appeal to as many centrists as possible.

1139
01:26:26,118 --> 01:26:26,718
This is a good thing.

1140
01:26:26,798 --> 01:26:29,758
There's two types of these – there's like different types of arbitration.

1141
01:26:31,198 --> 01:26:37,218
So like sometimes people go and they plead their case and then the mediator has to like draft a compromise.

1142
01:26:37,218 --> 01:26:43,898
but this is has isn't this has some disadvantages like people exaggerate their case and they say oh

1143
01:26:43,898 --> 01:26:47,238
this person's the worst so like this is like in family court they do this and then usually when

1144
01:26:47,238 --> 01:26:53,798
people get divorced they everyone tries some like kind of extreme routines where they file for like

1145
01:26:53,798 --> 01:26:56,958
a restraining order and they exaggerate the person's drinking or something because it's like

1146
01:26:56,958 --> 01:27:01,998
pretty normal for someone to drink at some point in the marriage like at new year's party or but

1147
01:27:01,998 --> 01:27:03,838
then they exaggerate it and they do all this stuff.

1148
01:27:04,358 --> 01:27:06,898
So then, but then in contrast to that,

1149
01:27:06,998 --> 01:27:11,558
they have a situation where the arbitrator must choose

1150
01:27:11,558 --> 01:27:15,038
one of the two sides to agree with completely.

1151
01:27:15,818 --> 01:27:17,298
And this has the opposite effect

1152
01:27:17,298 --> 01:27:20,198
where the people try to make their case

1153
01:27:20,198 --> 01:27:22,658
as honest as possible.

1154
01:27:23,078 --> 01:27:26,418
And they try to say, I will not exaggerate

1155
01:27:26,418 --> 01:27:29,598
because if the arbitrator, the mediator,

1156
01:27:29,798 --> 01:27:30,918
if they don't believe me,

1157
01:27:30,918 --> 01:27:32,838
then it will hurt my chances.

1158
01:27:33,098 --> 01:27:35,918
So they try to make their case as reasonable as possible,

1159
01:27:36,858 --> 01:27:41,518
appealing to the – because the moderator knows if it's pulled too far,

1160
01:27:42,138 --> 01:27:43,898
they'll just think, I don't believe this.

1161
01:27:44,478 --> 01:27:50,638
So I think that is an interesting thing to think about in the context of this site

1162
01:27:50,638 --> 01:27:54,458
that logs people's amounts where they would try to –

1163
01:27:54,458 --> 01:27:57,238
some people would try to write them like, I think Bitcoin should be used as money

1164
01:27:57,238 --> 01:28:01,398
or these platitudinous statements that everyone would agree with.

1165
01:28:01,718 --> 01:28:05,238
You could think maybe what would happen if someone wrote Bitcoin is hope or something

1166
01:28:05,238 --> 01:28:07,478
and then it would just get like a million endorsements.

1167
01:28:07,658 --> 01:28:08,158
And that was tough.

1168
01:28:08,218 --> 01:28:11,878
They had like a privacy problem too.

1169
01:28:11,958 --> 01:28:12,538
But yeah, I don't know.

1170
01:28:12,598 --> 01:28:15,118
I do think there is a problem with the Sybil attack.

1171
01:28:15,118 --> 01:28:22,198
And this is a problem with measuring people's opinion on Twitter.

1172
01:28:23,098 --> 01:28:26,478
And there was the scaling Bitcoin conferences in 2015.

1173
01:28:27,238 --> 01:28:30,198
And people – they made a huge deal.

1174
01:28:30,358 --> 01:28:31,678
They made it explicit.

1175
01:28:32,218 --> 01:28:41,558
They said on the website and in the announcement and they said, we will not make any decisions at this conference, which is funny.

1176
01:28:41,598 --> 01:28:42,198
It sounds kind of funny.

1177
01:28:42,198 --> 01:28:54,378
But what they were getting at at the time was they wanted to really preserve the ability for anonymous or private people to contribute.

1178
01:28:54,378 --> 01:28:56,698
and they knew that if you had an in-person meeting,

1179
01:28:56,958 --> 01:29:00,078
that would ruin privacy for a lot of people.

1180
01:29:00,558 --> 01:29:03,678
And so that the hypothetical Satoshi would not be able to attend.

1181
01:29:04,518 --> 01:29:07,018
And so that was a really important talking point for them to say,

1182
01:29:07,318 --> 01:29:10,418
we will not make any decisions at the in-person meeting.

1183
01:29:10,498 --> 01:29:12,638
This is just like a supplemental thing to like help out.

1184
01:29:13,298 --> 01:29:15,678
But then online you have the flip side of that

1185
01:29:15,678 --> 01:29:18,098
where you have endless fake accounts.

1186
01:29:18,778 --> 01:29:21,418
I kind of think right now the endless fake accounts problem

1187
01:29:21,418 --> 01:29:24,818
is worse than the privacy problem.

1188
01:29:25,678 --> 01:29:26,238
But yeah, I don't know.

1189
01:29:26,298 --> 01:29:26,878
That's a good point.

1190
01:29:27,038 --> 01:29:28,698
Definitely, I think Twitter,

1191
01:29:28,938 --> 01:29:29,778
you know, you have this,

1192
01:29:30,138 --> 01:29:32,518
I certainly have this love-hate relationship

1193
01:29:32,518 --> 01:29:33,758
with Twitter where on one hand,

1194
01:29:33,798 --> 01:29:35,338
it's amazing that you can message,

1195
01:29:35,958 --> 01:29:37,038
I can just message anyone,

1196
01:29:37,138 --> 01:29:38,618
any book author or something

1197
01:29:38,618 --> 01:29:40,678
or anyone about anything.

1198
01:29:41,138 --> 01:29:41,978
And it is kind of fun

1199
01:29:41,978 --> 01:29:43,538
to watch all the ideas compete.

1200
01:29:44,238 --> 01:29:46,018
The ideas compete on, you know,

1201
01:29:46,058 --> 01:29:48,018
and you could learn the rules and get better

1202
01:29:48,018 --> 01:29:49,518
and you could put more effort into it.

1203
01:29:49,518 --> 01:29:50,838
At the same time,

1204
01:29:50,838 --> 01:29:55,278
every now and then you think like oh my god if this is the way society is going like we're all

1205
01:29:55,278 --> 01:29:59,698
like gonna die or something so you know i don't know what to make of twitter i think elon has

1206
01:29:59,698 --> 01:30:07,818
improved it in many ways but he's also made it like he's given it this um he's seeded a certain

1207
01:30:07,818 --> 01:30:14,178
culture that has like also kind of like monocultured it or something also in a different way so i but

1208
01:30:14,178 --> 01:30:19,238
he did improve it a lot and he did when he fired all those people and it's and it's kept working i

1209
01:30:19,238 --> 01:30:21,798
I kind of thought, well, I guess those people are probably useless.

1210
01:30:22,338 --> 01:30:22,978
No offense to that.

1211
01:30:22,978 --> 01:30:26,118
You know, you probably been around long enough to know that, like,

1212
01:30:26,398 --> 01:30:29,578
forum moderators have a bad reputation.

1213
01:30:29,738 --> 01:30:30,678
Nobody likes the mods.

1214
01:30:30,778 --> 01:30:31,518
Nobody hates the mods.

1215
01:30:31,598 --> 01:30:35,358
But I think what's happened with Twitter X, whatever,

1216
01:30:35,358 --> 01:30:39,498
the last two or three years, I think people are starting to respect

1217
01:30:39,498 --> 01:30:42,678
the credentialed moderators a little bit more.

1218
01:30:42,838 --> 01:30:45,618
Maybe the mods have had too much of a bad reputation,

1219
01:30:45,858 --> 01:30:47,578
and they aren't all bad.

1220
01:30:47,578 --> 01:30:52,558
They're not all as bad as the R-Bitcoin Reddit mods.

1221
01:30:53,858 --> 01:30:54,378
Yeah.

1222
01:30:54,758 --> 01:30:56,598
I mean I disagree.

1223
01:30:56,858 --> 01:31:01,178
In my point of view on that, this happened during the block size war and many times since.

1224
01:31:01,398 --> 01:31:12,318
But I felt that the R-Bitcoin suppression of large block stuff, I felt that that was helping the large blockers a lot.

1225
01:31:13,278 --> 01:31:15,098
But who's to say if that was really true?

1226
01:31:15,098 --> 01:31:17,278
But I also think there's a lot of stuff.

1227
01:31:17,358 --> 01:31:19,078
There's a lot of interesting stuff that could have been different.

1228
01:31:19,878 --> 01:31:25,078
So I thought R-BTC was just like we'll be the uncensored R slash Bitcoin.

1229
01:31:25,578 --> 01:31:27,218
But I think that was a mistake.

1230
01:31:27,418 --> 01:31:30,038
What they should have just done was said we will mirror.

1231
01:31:30,858 --> 01:31:37,438
They should have maybe made a different site that has like the same layout as Reddit and just said we will mirror R-Bitcoin.

1232
01:31:38,018 --> 01:31:43,418
But we will also include all the – we will snapshot and include all the censored posts in like a special box.

1233
01:31:43,918 --> 01:31:48,358
And that move would have single-handedly eviscerated R slash Bitcoin.

1234
01:31:48,938 --> 01:31:52,478
So this is a very interesting idea, like a different – the right media strategy, I think.

1235
01:31:52,478 --> 01:31:58,738
But instead they just created RBTC because they thought we want to be the king of our own new subreddit where we'll do it right.

1236
01:31:59,178 --> 01:32:02,718
And of course they had to have their own moderation problems, which they did.

1237
01:32:03,258 --> 01:32:09,058
And then the question was how should they treat – yeah, you had people like, again, Greg Maxwell who's very active on Reddit.

1238
01:32:09,058 --> 01:32:14,518
And also in his dealings with the RBTC people, I thought he wasn't completely unfair, but

1239
01:32:14,518 --> 01:32:15,958
he was very critical.

1240
01:32:15,958 --> 01:32:28,450
And then he would always get downvoted to hell So like the Reddit thing would be like flag him when he go to rbtc as like just like a spam person who should never be shown but he that was not what he was he was

1241
01:32:28,450 --> 01:32:32,770
just unpopular so then he had to be like whitelisted and all this other like weird stuff

1242
01:32:32,770 --> 01:32:40,150
would happen so it's very very intriguing um that's a very interesting stories yeah that's a

1243
01:32:40,150 --> 01:32:48,230
good um more like a example of the the guys with spam derangement syndrome the nazis were just like

1244
01:32:48,230 --> 01:32:54,470
so obsessed with spam and like keeping spam off bitcoin the the problem with that is that

1245
01:32:54,470 --> 01:33:03,810
it's it's it's it's it's it's an ambiguous term anything could be argued whether well or or not

1246
01:33:03,810 --> 01:33:09,670
well that it's spam and that it shouldn't be allowed like in greg maxwell being uh flagged

1247
01:33:09,670 --> 01:33:15,890
and filtered on reddit as spam is a good example of this where it's like just because a lot of

1248
01:33:15,890 --> 01:33:25,790
people are triggered by by your content or by the name by by the the the the the you know nature of

1249
01:33:25,790 --> 01:33:32,570
your existence um doesn't you know they could call you spam he was a reportedly like he would

1250
01:33:32,570 --> 01:33:40,370
be tagged rbtc as you may as people probably know when you can like tag someone in a post

1251
01:33:40,370 --> 01:33:45,410
on reddit they'll get it they could get like called over from like wherever they were on reddit to go

1252
01:33:45,410 --> 01:33:50,830
participate on rbtc so he'd be like invited over then he would give his so they were like honestly

1253
01:33:50,830 --> 01:33:55,310
having it this was like civilization at its best in a way you have two people who really disagree

1254
01:33:55,310 --> 01:34:00,870
and really hate each other and they're typing it out in in text in chat they're not even like

1255
01:34:00,870 --> 01:34:04,710
throwing crazy memes or gifs at each other or something you know they're just typing it out

1256
01:34:04,710 --> 01:34:11,290
and everyone can benefit from it but of course he would get uh downvoted and so then of course if

1257
01:34:11,290 --> 01:34:16,270
you program a subreddit you know if you're the reddit mods and you see someone always gets

1258
01:34:16,270 --> 01:34:21,870
downvoted here they always have a negative score or whatever um you would think well we just

1259
01:34:21,870 --> 01:34:27,110
shouldn't show this to people this is not what they came from the subreddit for and then so i'm

1260
01:34:27,110 --> 01:34:33,270
not sure exactly how to what to make of it all i think it is definitely the case that different

1261
01:34:33,270 --> 01:34:37,830
people are interested in different content and if you want to curate the content the right way

1262
01:34:37,830 --> 01:34:43,030
you need to be very smart you can't just say like you can't just write the word cold and tape it to

1263
01:34:43,030 --> 01:34:47,150
a refrigerator that's not plugged in or if it's broken the refrigerator is broken or it's not

1264
01:34:47,150 --> 01:34:50,710
plugged in you can't just write like cold and tape it on you can't just write like not spam

1265
01:34:50,710 --> 01:35:00,890
You need to have like a complicated sifting sorting idea as to exactly what will be displayed and what will not be displayed.

1266
01:35:01,730 --> 01:35:11,950
And so that's part of why the nots people are incorrect is because they have an extremely simplistic idea over something that is not simple at all.

1267
01:35:11,950 --> 01:35:17,070
And of course, one thing that everyone brings up is that Bitcoin already has the sorting based on fee.

1268
01:35:17,370 --> 01:35:19,310
That's the whole reason it works at all.

1269
01:35:19,310 --> 01:35:29,950
So it already has this engine of suppressing insincere messages, and it works perfectly.

1270
01:35:30,910 --> 01:35:35,250
And so – but yeah, this has already been talked to death, I think.

1271
01:35:35,370 --> 01:35:41,230
But yeah, what will become of the Knotts cult when this peters up?

1272
01:35:41,230 --> 01:35:47,910
You're not – you're just not going to succeed trying to vibe code a vaccine for Bitcoin.

1273
01:35:47,910 --> 01:35:49,930
Yeah, I mean, you're not going to say Bitcoin.

1274
01:35:50,610 --> 01:36:01,210
Yeah, the Bitcoin core has some of the most, the highest standards, sometimes unreasonably high or high in an insane way, such as inconsistent camel case requirements and other nonsense.

1275
01:36:01,210 --> 01:36:12,590
But, you know, the idea that you, that would be like, that was like the worst place in the entire universe to try to bring the vibe coded pull requests.

1276
01:36:12,590 --> 01:36:25,990
That's like – so that was just by itself kind of – I was almost thinking like is there like a third or fourth layer to that where they're like we want you to know that we don't take this seriously either and we're just wasting your time and look, we can get away with it.

1277
01:36:25,990 --> 01:36:26,230
Right.

1278
01:36:26,230 --> 01:36:35,250
the book the book uh market wizards uh about the infamous traders from the 70s like ed coyote i

1279
01:36:35,250 --> 01:36:42,130
think i might be getting it right now but um hit his whole like market trading thesis was psychological

1280
01:36:42,130 --> 01:36:47,910
like that where he thought if there were people like outcomes that were determined by the fact

1281
01:36:47,910 --> 01:36:52,770
that these people were like psychologically expecting themselves to fail but like not

1282
01:36:52,770 --> 01:36:59,170
not having the self-awareness to realize like the vid that they have that predisposition to be

1283
01:36:59,170 --> 01:37:05,730
self-sabotaging and that they would lose money or succeed in the market totally based on um

1284
01:37:05,730 --> 01:37:11,090
their efforts to sabotage themselves and to try to lose right like some people do this like by

1285
01:37:11,090 --> 01:37:18,010
trading meme coins or just the way that they or maybe kept extra careless with their bitcoin it

1286
01:37:18,010 --> 01:37:27,170
is their keys like it might not have been um some catastrophe or security uh exploit that some

1287
01:37:27,170 --> 01:37:31,570
hacker figured out it's just like the risk was that they were self-sabotaging and that they

1288
01:37:31,570 --> 01:37:35,210
didn't believe in themselves and that they they were careless for their keys and that's why they

1289
01:37:35,210 --> 01:37:42,150
lost them so it almost feels that way with the nazis where it's they're not aware they are there's

1290
01:37:42,150 --> 01:37:48,230
no self-awareness here, but they are just demonstrating with histrionics and just over

1291
01:37:48,230 --> 01:37:53,210
the top dramatic narratives that they're self-sabotaging.

1292
01:37:53,330 --> 01:37:58,710
They're trying to lose and they're showing us that this isn't meant to be successful.

1293
01:37:58,710 --> 01:38:03,930
They are not actually trying to achieve consensus as they would describe it.

1294
01:38:04,690 --> 01:38:05,590
Yeah, I agree.

1295
01:38:05,690 --> 01:38:08,010
I think there are so many holes in the plan.

1296
01:38:08,010 --> 01:38:15,450
even it's the idea that it's a temporary soft fork we have never had anything like that um and so

1297
01:38:15,450 --> 01:38:20,270
it's kind of like well if it's a good idea then why is it temporary like it's there's so many

1298
01:38:20,270 --> 01:38:26,410
things about it that are like well so i think that you didn't think about this right it's like

1299
01:38:26,410 --> 01:38:33,690
you can just tell they didn't think about the very next step or like what if this it was just like

1300
01:38:33,690 --> 01:38:36,830
as long as it gets rid of the spam, it will be fine.

1301
01:38:36,990 --> 01:38:41,490
I thought it was interesting also that they didn't appear to feed the AI,

1302
01:38:42,230 --> 01:38:45,350
here are all of the soft fork BIPs in the past,

1303
01:38:45,850 --> 01:38:47,390
and just make it look like that.

1304
01:38:47,810 --> 01:38:52,110
It really doesn't, which is interesting,

1305
01:38:52,470 --> 01:38:55,270
because the BIPs already have to be a certain format,

1306
01:38:55,750 --> 01:38:58,690
so of course they all superficially resemble each other.

1307
01:39:00,450 --> 01:39:03,490
But I thought this is just weird how the style of this

1308
01:39:03,490 --> 01:39:11,590
is just um it's not actually like they don't have well i don't want to like but it's like um

1309
01:39:11,590 --> 01:39:15,470
i just thought it was strange it's the whole thing is strange and even the the fact that luke

1310
01:39:15,470 --> 01:39:20,430
gives it 444 because he thought it might activate before i got home like the whole thing is like

1311
01:39:20,430 --> 01:39:26,290
every aspect of it is like just a little bit off you know you're just like it's with these people

1312
01:39:26,290 --> 01:39:34,150
it's like it's the the plebs it's the plebs slop code it's the plebs slop software and it makes me

1313
01:39:34,150 --> 01:39:41,190
think of like think of the guy that shot charlie kirk like this assassin and all we found out or

1314
01:39:41,190 --> 01:39:48,590
all we know in the aftermath is like how sloppy this guy was like he was just in the group chats

1315
01:39:48,590 --> 01:39:56,250
in taxi saying exactly admitting to his crime like it oh i left my sweater just like in all

1316
01:39:56,250 --> 01:40:01,790
of us are sitting at home and we're like i thought about the game theory a little bit about doing

1317
01:40:01,790 --> 01:40:07,310
some kind of high profile assassination you know and i would have taken more precaution here i would

1318
01:40:07,310 --> 01:40:12,870
have thought about this very obvious clue that he did and it's like anybody who follows bitcoin it's

1319
01:40:12,870 --> 01:40:17,610
like dude if i was going to try to do a four if i was trying to compete with like you know i'm

1320
01:40:17,610 --> 01:40:23,410
getting compared to uh roger veer like all right i'm gonna fucking come correct i'm gonna have all

1321
01:40:23,410 --> 01:40:30,150
my my dot box uh or my i's dotted my t's crossed this is going to be good i would have thought of

1322
01:40:30,150 --> 01:40:36,650
this and they didn't do that and it's it's we just live in the world in the era of of pleb slop

1323
01:40:36,650 --> 01:40:43,270
glory everybody's trying to get glory they're trying to take a shortcut to fame and like oh

1324
01:40:43,270 --> 01:40:48,450
dude i pulled off i pulled off the fork or i saved bitcoin dude bitcoin is money i saved it

1325
01:40:48,450 --> 01:40:50,670
And it's like, dude, it's just a plump slap at hand.

1326
01:40:51,750 --> 01:40:53,810
Yeah, parts of it are very disappointing.

1327
01:40:54,050 --> 01:40:55,850
Like you watch the debate.

1328
01:40:56,310 --> 01:41:03,130
First of all, the fact that this is even getting people's attention at all is kind of depressing because other things are much more worthy of the attention.

1329
01:41:03,130 --> 01:41:08,190
But then for some reason, you can just hijack attention by just making a lot of noise or whatever.

1330
01:41:08,190 --> 01:41:22,010
But you'd see like this is like the main point, the Luke point or the mechanic point is they would say something like we think Bitcoin should be used as money, not as file storage.

1331
01:41:22,670 --> 01:41:24,570
But even that doesn't make any sense.

1332
01:41:24,710 --> 01:41:26,830
Like each Bitcoin transaction is a file.

1333
01:41:28,390 --> 01:41:33,850
And so you just kind of think like it is already a file storage.

1334
01:41:34,890 --> 01:41:36,830
But then like everyone will just lap it up.

1335
01:41:36,830 --> 01:41:40,950
and they just – it's almost like – it's kind of like an NFL game

1336
01:41:40,950 --> 01:41:42,870
or something where you get two different colors.

1337
01:41:43,230 --> 01:41:46,170
People have a red shirt and a blue shirt or whatever,

1338
01:41:46,370 --> 01:41:48,890
and it's just people want to divide.

1339
01:41:49,090 --> 01:41:53,270
And it is like wrestling where it's like you just cheer for your side

1340
01:41:53,270 --> 01:41:55,790
and you're just happy to be included I guess or something.

1341
01:41:56,350 --> 01:42:01,390
And it has – the fact that none of it has any bearing on the facts

1342
01:42:01,390 --> 01:42:04,150
doesn't even bother people.

1343
01:42:04,150 --> 01:42:17,810
well it's the the the ice one last thing uh they people tried for decades maybe longer to create

1344
01:42:17,810 --> 01:42:24,610
a bitcoin right like a decentralized peer-to-peer system um and we know that and that's what you

1345
01:42:24,610 --> 01:42:29,230
know they were building up to what ended up being the white in the white paper but

1346
01:42:29,230 --> 01:42:44,862
They tried to solve this consensus problem for decades in Satoshi did it by making a database a decentralized database a um proof of work database so then they like oh bitcoin money not a database yeah i know it like no that

1347
01:42:44,862 --> 01:42:49,862
was the whole point the whole point is money is also and also like every form of money is a database

1348
01:42:49,862 --> 01:42:54,642
to some extent it's like who has more money who has less so it's right like can you think in

1349
01:42:54,642 --> 01:42:58,882
distractions is the problem they can't think in distractions it's like a kind of hypnosis or

1350
01:42:58,882 --> 01:43:06,182
something too it's just like we are you know we are not the database team and it's just kind of

1351
01:43:06,182 --> 01:43:12,242
like wow like what like what are they talking don't they know that if you if you look in the

1352
01:43:12,242 --> 01:43:16,662
if you run bitcoin or if you look at the source code there are plenty of databases there there

1353
01:43:16,662 --> 01:43:23,722
there they all they're all right there like so i don't know again it's kind of has this

1354
01:43:23,722 --> 01:43:29,142
this third or fourth layer where it's like it's almost like humiliating it's like a humiliation

1355
01:43:29,142 --> 01:43:34,462
it's like this is what this is what you're stuck talking about this is maybe why i don't do the

1356
01:43:34,462 --> 01:43:39,182
pleb slop thing as much because i'm like i don't want to get dragged down into this world i'm just

1357
01:43:39,182 --> 01:43:42,562
going to hang out of my own bubble you know i'll hang out of my own bubble i'll be very happy there

1358
01:43:42,562 --> 01:43:52,442
but who knows and this is just the irony of it is they basically hate the fact that uh bitcoin

1359
01:43:52,442 --> 01:43:57,142
is a database that was originally run on the Cal Berkeley,

1360
01:43:57,882 --> 01:44:00,982
the woke Cal Berkeley fucking data library.

1361
01:44:01,282 --> 01:44:02,502
Like that is the origin of Bitcoin.

1362
01:44:02,702 --> 01:44:04,922
That's the only reason any of this exists today.

1363
01:44:06,202 --> 01:44:07,662
Yeah, I know.

1364
01:44:07,682 --> 01:44:09,242
Thanks to Gloria and Cal.

1365
01:44:09,242 --> 01:44:09,882
I do.

1366
01:44:10,002 --> 01:44:12,942
I am kind of curious in like a kind of historical way

1367
01:44:12,942 --> 01:44:17,382
as to how Matt Cratter came to be anti-core.

1368
01:44:17,702 --> 01:44:22,242
Like was it because you guys were making fun of not?

1369
01:44:22,442 --> 01:44:36,062
And then he – like I really want to know because – with the core, I was like, oh, well, at least this is like kind of like the end of Matt Cratter because these are like – first of all, these videos are super deranged and weird.

1370
01:44:36,182 --> 01:44:39,302
I think any normal person would just be like, what the hell is wrong with this person?

1371
01:44:39,302 --> 01:44:44,322
But they're also like, you know, I criticize Core all the time.

1372
01:44:44,722 --> 01:44:47,342
And I think Core is lazy and corrupt.

1373
01:44:47,782 --> 01:44:48,782
I really do.

1374
01:44:48,902 --> 01:44:58,242
But it's not like I think they are like, he is like, his criticism of them is so extreme and so weird.

1375
01:45:00,762 --> 01:45:04,122
And it's like, based completely on what?

1376
01:45:04,262 --> 01:45:07,002
Like, just based on just like wanting to side with Luke?

1377
01:45:07,002 --> 01:45:08,762
Like, what the hell is the point of it all?

1378
01:45:08,762 --> 01:45:15,922
So I just think like I would be curious as to why do people feel so strongly about this one thing?

1379
01:45:16,162 --> 01:45:24,182
Like out of all the things you could latch on to, you know, and you could jump on the – you could say, oh, this is the topic du jour and I really want to talk about it.

1380
01:45:24,262 --> 01:45:25,682
You just like go on with this thing.

1381
01:45:25,722 --> 01:45:27,282
I think that's so strange.

1382
01:45:27,282 --> 01:45:38,342
And of course these people in core, you know, I think they have bad priorities but they are unbelievably specialized and they have been doing this work, you know, for years and years and they have their own little stuff worked out.

1383
01:45:38,762 --> 01:45:42,302
to, you know, keep new versions coming out.

1384
01:45:42,562 --> 01:45:44,822
And so they are, I respect them in that way.

1385
01:45:45,702 --> 01:45:46,702
I just think that they,

1386
01:45:46,922 --> 01:45:48,722
their claim to be doing what's best for Bitcoin

1387
01:45:48,722 --> 01:45:50,262
is not always true.

1388
01:45:50,362 --> 01:45:53,242
And so I think that that's open to being criticized.

1389
01:45:53,962 --> 01:45:55,762
But yeah, I just, I would love to know why,

1390
01:45:56,002 --> 01:45:58,502
how it came to be.

1391
01:45:58,502 --> 01:46:02,542
And because if it is like a fundamental effect,

1392
01:46:02,882 --> 01:46:05,542
then there will be,

1393
01:46:05,682 --> 01:46:06,842
that just means that in the future,

1394
01:46:06,842 --> 01:46:11,282
even more deranged people will all come together and they'll all clump together on the same thing

1395
01:46:11,282 --> 01:46:15,702
and and so i i just think like that's kind of interesting like why why i do that i don't know

1396
01:46:15,702 --> 01:46:23,282
but who's to say i think like just giving them these guys the benefit of the doubt without

1397
01:46:23,282 --> 01:46:31,542
trying to espouse some sort of you know machiavellian intention uh because it's hard to know

1398
01:46:31,542 --> 01:46:41,182
but it's the the easiest way to bootstrap a company with a marketing effort with minimal

1399
01:46:41,182 --> 01:46:50,602
resources is to use the plebs in a crusade you get you give them a moral crusade because the

1400
01:46:50,602 --> 01:46:55,642
plebs tend to be made up of people that don't feel really good about themselves so they're

1401
01:46:55,642 --> 01:47:00,362
they're looking anywhere for a sense of meaning like they want a priest to tell them how to live

1402
01:47:00,362 --> 01:47:09,242
which podcast to listen to which uh shit coiners to attack on twitter which pleb slop terms to

1403
01:47:09,242 --> 01:47:14,062
parrot that they don't understand they're looking for that guidance in that direction

1404
01:47:14,062 --> 01:47:24,422
and they want to displace their feelings of insignificance and and dislike for themselves

1405
01:47:24,422 --> 01:47:29,582
onto something else so if they can project all their feelings and so you know these individuals

1406
01:47:29,582 --> 01:47:34,942
that are a little bit more sophisticated like okay well how do we how do we scale a business

1407
01:47:34,942 --> 01:47:45,062
uh that isn't that impressive well we identify somebody to attack so instead of anybody ever

1408
01:47:45,062 --> 01:47:50,502
evaluating our product and what we're doing they're so focused on attacking these individuals

1409
01:47:50,502 --> 01:47:56,942
and supporting us and i feel like a lot of individuals fall for this trap over and over

1410
01:47:56,942 --> 01:48:06,302
again we saw it with um swan and uh you know the whole bitcoin only prime trust cabal um

1411
01:48:06,302 --> 01:48:15,062
i think you you would yeah i agree swan it's just like i don't know it's like um i think

1412
01:48:15,062 --> 01:48:19,442
i didn't you guys figure this out or someone was like oh swan just takes it from pleditor or

1413
01:48:19,442 --> 01:48:27,042
whatever like that's the and then they just they package it into like a product so it was kind of

1414
01:48:27,042 --> 01:48:30,842
like uh and i was like oh that actually makes perfect sense uh but of course they're all getting

1415
01:48:30,842 --> 01:48:35,542
it from somewhere they get it like they just think these are the talking points and it's like whether

1416
01:48:35,542 --> 01:48:39,122
or not they even believe these talking points i think that doesn't even matter they just think

1417
01:48:39,122 --> 01:48:44,602
this is the this is a magic incantation it's a lot of a it's a huge bitcoin affinity scam

1418
01:48:44,602 --> 01:48:49,482
So, you know, the treasury company, this is not the first and it won't be the last.

1419
01:48:50,023 --> 01:48:50,902
And a lot of people do this.

1420
01:48:51,162 --> 01:48:57,722
Even Lightning, I think the treasury companies and Lightning are also all an affinity scam where it's kind of you have two circles.

1421
01:48:57,862 --> 01:48:59,922
You have Bitcoin and you have like the Lightning network.

1422
01:49:00,142 --> 01:49:04,362
And people try to get them to overlap as much as possible inside someone's brain.

1423
01:49:04,582 --> 01:49:06,602
And then they just think, oh, yeah, Lightning equals Bitcoin.

1424
01:49:07,702 --> 01:49:12,222
And same for the, oh, if I buy the treasury companies, I'm helping, I'm buying Bitcoin.

1425
01:49:12,222 --> 01:49:19,802
and if you know whatever what's good for swan is whatever what's good for bitcoin that's like uh

1426
01:49:19,802 --> 01:49:26,362
that's that's the scam so there have been many bitcoin affinity scams over the years and uh

1427
01:49:26,362 --> 01:49:30,182
but yeah whether or not they even believe the talking points i don't even think they care

1428
01:49:30,182 --> 01:49:36,802
it is weird like still what is the ultimate origin of one talking point or another that is uh

1429
01:49:36,802 --> 01:49:41,622
interesting and this is interesting the number of people who are just complete liars and hypocrites

1430
01:49:41,622 --> 01:49:46,362
in the space and even there are other things where a lot some lies are

1431
01:49:46,362 --> 01:49:54,342
like plenty of people who have you know plenty of the loudest bitcoin maximalists today they

1432
01:49:54,342 --> 01:50:02,062
you know i remember them doing ico sales or something on ethereum or they did token sales

1433
01:50:02,062 --> 01:50:10,842
on ethereum in the past and it's like uh and even like swan was caught like putting everything like

1434
01:50:10,842 --> 01:50:15,842
gotten ripple or something or what i don't even remember what it was but it was like something

1435
01:50:15,842 --> 01:50:21,642
else something like you wouldn't even believe it was like even it was so dumb that even you had

1436
01:50:21,642 --> 01:50:27,682
trouble wrapping your head around it but it whatever it was it was very funny and uh so it's

1437
01:50:27,682 --> 01:50:31,742
kind of like and then of course like even like uh you know i hate to like but you can go down the

1438
01:50:31,742 --> 01:50:37,642
list like jimmy song was like a d cred guy he was even like d cred jimmy or something like back in

1439
01:50:37,642 --> 01:50:41,162
the day like i hate to like bring up like ancient ancient ancient history but it's like every single

1440
01:50:41,162 --> 01:50:50,422
person who is like uh giacomo zucco he did the block bhb blockchain something lab he did like

1441
01:50:50,422 --> 01:50:56,342
normal fundraising for it wasn't even bitcoin so i'm not trying to say like too much about

1442
01:50:56,342 --> 01:51:01,862
but you can go down the line for many of these people and you know uh even things like uh this

1443
01:51:01,862 --> 01:51:12,622
This isn't as big of a deal, but it's funny that certain people like I think – like Pierre Richard worked for BitPay, but then they all started to hate BitPay.

1444
01:51:13,002 --> 01:51:18,722
So that's not quite the same because you could maybe say that they learned by working there to hate them or something.

1445
01:51:18,822 --> 01:51:20,202
But then Michael Goldstein did 21.

1446
01:51:20,602 --> 01:51:21,982
So everyone was kind of like taken in.

1447
01:51:21,982 --> 01:51:28,142
Everyone had this phase where they were much younger and they were early in their career and they had like no money and they just wanted a job.

1448
01:51:28,182 --> 01:51:31,142
Everyone was excited about Bitcoin and everyone wanted a job in the space.

1449
01:51:31,862 --> 01:51:33,762
And it was so cool to be working in Bitcoin.

1450
01:51:34,902 --> 01:51:42,662
But some of the other examples are really funny where the people are just – they are actual like complete actual shitcoin scammers.

1451
01:51:42,902 --> 01:51:46,242
And then they become Bitcoin maximalist affinity scam.

1452
01:51:47,382 --> 01:51:54,062
So yeah, it's like why does Michael Saylor – who is saying Bitcoin is a scam in whatever that was, 2013, 2015.

1453
01:51:55,642 --> 01:52:00,662
And then he's joining – if you join in 2020, you're still very new.

1454
01:52:00,662 --> 01:52:08,362
so why would his opinion ever outrank anyone who had joined in like 2019 but the people say he's got

1455
01:52:08,362 --> 01:52:13,082
a lot of skin in the game but you know skin in the game it just means that you're not lying it

1456
01:52:13,082 --> 01:52:18,122
doesn't mean that you have the right idea it doesn't even mean that sometimes so there's a

1457
01:52:18,122 --> 01:52:25,462
lot of funny little quirks absolutely well paul we've been rolling completely different too like

1458
01:52:25,462 --> 01:52:25,982
the Monero.

1459
01:52:26,762 --> 01:52:27,202
Oh,

1460
01:52:27,202 --> 01:52:27,422
sorry.

1461
01:52:28,582 --> 01:52:30,682
We've been rolling for almost two hours.

1462
01:52:33,062 --> 01:52:34,362
I think I'm going to get through.

1463
01:52:34,482 --> 01:52:37,802
So one thing that we do at the end of all of our shows is we read the,

1464
01:52:37,802 --> 01:52:40,342
the fountain boost for the previous interview.

1465
01:52:40,523 --> 01:52:40,702
So,

1466
01:52:40,822 --> 01:52:41,142
you know,

1467
01:52:41,162 --> 01:52:45,502
one of the things that we're trying to show people is that a custodial

1468
01:52:45,502 --> 01:52:46,302
lightning works.

1469
01:52:47,642 --> 01:52:58,975
And you a great guest to show this It very easy to get it Well it like the driverless getting the driverless Waymo to road This is what I in the tab conf you get the driverless

1470
01:52:59,015 --> 01:53:00,515
how do I get the driverless car to work?

1471
01:53:01,175 --> 01:53:05,495
You just have a human driver and then they drive you to the destination.

1472
01:53:05,655 --> 01:53:06,175
Problem solved.

1473
01:53:06,455 --> 01:53:08,755
And then everyone will be amazed to be like, wow, it drove me.

1474
01:53:08,955 --> 01:53:11,555
It drove me from my house to my work, you know,

1475
01:53:11,555 --> 01:53:12,715
and it didn't make any mistakes.

1476
01:53:15,275 --> 01:53:17,915
So it definitely does work.

1477
01:53:18,055 --> 01:53:27,555
absolutely um so our first boost is from soap miner who sells homemade tallow soap

1478
01:53:27,555 --> 01:53:34,955
and sell it for satoshis only uh if you want girlfriends of bitcoin you have to

1479
01:53:34,955 --> 01:53:37,235
you have to shower on occasion

1480
01:53:37,235 --> 01:53:45,355
so you've been you've been around a while good advice you've been around a while there's a lot

1481
01:53:45,355 --> 01:53:51,315
of stinky bitcoiners uh do you think there's any hope for these guys getting girlfriends

1482
01:53:51,315 --> 01:53:57,835
well uh man some of them

1483
01:53:57,835 --> 01:54:05,135
you know and you don't want do you really want like imagine you have a really good friend

1484
01:54:05,135 --> 01:54:14,175
suddenly they strike it rich and then some people want to be their girlfriend but

1485
01:54:15,355 --> 01:54:23,635
Imagine like they get into a relationship or even they get married or whatever, but the woman doesn't really respect him.

1486
01:54:23,815 --> 01:54:25,955
It's just using him, you know, as an ATM.

1487
01:54:26,095 --> 01:54:27,875
Is that really that much better?

1488
01:54:28,135 --> 01:54:29,635
You know, that's a sad thought.

1489
01:54:29,715 --> 01:54:36,135
Don't we want – I think it's nice if people – two people, they each like each other.

1490
01:54:36,135 --> 01:54:43,935
You know, that's a more stable arrangement because then they'll – through thick and thin, they'll fight for each other.

1491
01:54:44,115 --> 01:54:45,215
It's best interest.

1492
01:54:45,355 --> 01:54:48,215
And that's a good thing.

1493
01:54:48,595 --> 01:54:55,895
So can even some of these people, you know, I think, yeah, is it really Bitcoin that will help them?

1494
01:54:56,015 --> 01:55:00,375
Or should they – some of them experiment with like these very strong drugs.

1495
01:55:00,495 --> 01:55:10,175
They should maybe take the psilocybin magic mushroom and reflect or, you know, the MDMA, they say, you know.

1496
01:55:10,875 --> 01:55:11,615
So I read.

1497
01:55:12,515 --> 01:55:13,775
Maybe that would be better.

1498
01:55:13,775 --> 01:55:23,035
Because, you know, a lot of these people clearly – you said it before about what type of people can be led into a crusade by the priests.

1499
01:55:23,455 --> 01:55:26,515
And it's, you know, these people don't have a lot going on in their lives.

1500
01:55:26,995 --> 01:55:30,695
They need something to latch on to.

1501
01:55:30,695 --> 01:55:43,615
So, yeah, if you want – I mean, sometimes – this may sound funny, but sometimes people do ask for – I mean, I think if people want a girlfriend, you should just start doing push-ups right now.

1502
01:55:43,775 --> 01:55:53,215
And you can buy a guitar and the top three notes on a guitar are a minor chord and then the next three are a major chord and you can learn one, four, five that have dots on them.

1503
01:55:53,755 --> 01:55:56,795
So you can learn a lot of songs right out of the gate.

1504
01:55:57,755 --> 01:55:59,835
And so now you can play the guitar and now you can do push-ups.

1505
01:55:59,835 --> 01:56:11,835
And then I would try to – but yeah, of course, I think it's not – now we're delving into topics that are even more forbidden than Bitcoin.

1506
01:56:11,835 --> 01:56:34,975
But yeah, I think it's, you know, men have like a higher sex drive than women on average. So now we're all going to get canceled for making these generalizations. But so in that way, you know, it's not unfair, I think, for the women to ask, like, listen, is this person going to be financially a contributor or a drain, you know?

1507
01:56:34,975 --> 01:56:46,215
And so actually I don't think it's so mysterious or weird that you should be able to pay for dinner and flowers and stuff.

1508
01:56:46,315 --> 01:57:00,295
That's not that so – but yeah, I think most people say they want a girlfriend, but they're unwilling to do push-ups today until they physically cannot and then to repeat that every other day, which only takes like a few seconds.

1509
01:57:00,815 --> 01:57:02,575
So how bad do they really want it again?

1510
01:57:02,575 --> 01:57:04,395
I question that sometimes.

1511
01:57:04,975 --> 01:57:12,275
100 push-ups a day till 100K and shower with beef tallow soap that you paid for with Bitcoin.

1512
01:57:14,915 --> 01:57:17,515
Yeah, I mean, just because you need soap, you need to take a shower.

1513
01:57:17,595 --> 01:57:25,475
It doesn't necessarily mean you need this soap, but because every CVS sells some kind of soap or another, I think.

1514
01:57:26,255 --> 01:57:29,095
We're all going to boost this.

1515
01:57:29,275 --> 01:57:31,075
So we're going to recommend his soap.

1516
01:57:31,155 --> 01:57:32,395
Don't go to CVS, actually.

1517
01:57:33,735 --> 01:57:34,535
Could be great.

1518
01:57:34,535 --> 01:57:37,815
2,121 saps from the Daniel.

1519
01:57:38,635 --> 01:57:41,335
He said, this podcast has gone too highbrow.

1520
01:57:42,035 --> 01:57:49,775
And I don't know what he's talking about, except for maybe we've been kind of teasing and trolling Nostra.

1521
01:57:50,035 --> 01:57:51,675
And he really likes Nostra.

1522
01:57:51,955 --> 01:57:57,575
So, yeah, we got a post over and got to start picking on the guys on Nostra.

1523
01:57:58,755 --> 01:58:00,975
Paul, do you ever use the Nostra app?

1524
01:58:00,975 --> 01:58:10,955
i don't but i really should because um you know fiat joff is a huge supporter of drive chain he

1525
01:58:10,955 --> 01:58:15,075
was one of the earliest and he was also one of the earliest haters of lightning even before i was

1526
01:58:15,075 --> 01:58:20,195
he like years before i was just kind of like well i think drive chain is like a little bit better

1527
01:58:20,195 --> 01:58:24,915
than lightning but he was like no lightning doesn't work and it's a huge distraction and

1528
01:58:24,915 --> 01:58:29,915
we should we should burn it all to the ground he was saying that i think in like he was at least

1529
01:58:29,915 --> 01:58:38,955
saying that publicly on the internet in early 2023 but i think i heard it earlier in like a private

1530
01:58:38,955 --> 01:58:46,655
telegram chat uh like even before then years before then and he was like this doesn't work

1531
01:58:46,655 --> 01:58:51,815
and it's a huge distraction and but he's always been a big supporter one of the biggest supporters

1532
01:58:51,815 --> 01:58:56,575
of drive chain and he had the drive chain.xyz site which is a little bit more pleb facing and

1533
01:58:56,575 --> 01:59:01,315
He was kind of with you guys about you should communicate this to people differently or something.

1534
01:59:02,075 --> 01:59:03,195
He was probably right about that.

1535
01:59:03,795 --> 01:59:16,595
And so I do think the fact that Twitter is – or ex-formerly Twitter is so – it's like it has this unsatisfying vibe somehow.

1536
01:59:17,075 --> 01:59:20,075
And so the question is can you fix it?

1537
01:59:20,155 --> 01:59:22,615
And if so, why not just fix it and launch your own project?

1538
01:59:22,615 --> 01:59:27,815
And I think that – I think it will actually need a few ingredients.

1539
01:59:28,475 --> 01:59:32,015
I would prefer it if we had like the Namecoin sidechain backup.

1540
01:59:32,135 --> 01:59:37,795
I think Namecoin is a totally underexplored idea and I wrote a blog post about this on truthcoin.info.

1541
01:59:37,955 --> 01:59:51,875
And I think – so with the – if it was amped up with the human readable names – but I think there are a lot of unanswered questions about like is Noster supposed to relay every like?

1542
01:59:51,875 --> 01:59:56,615
like to everyone and you know i think i don't know i'm not sure exactly how it will

1543
01:59:56,615 --> 02:00:03,155
how it will work under under pressure in a way that i think actually something if you wanted

1544
02:00:03,155 --> 02:00:09,255
like a private relay thing kind of telegram kind of already does a little bit of that where you can

1545
02:00:09,255 --> 02:00:15,875
just have different many many many different groups and so i don't know i'm not really sure

1546
02:00:15,875 --> 02:00:20,175
uh i'm not really sure about it but i probably should get it but uh i don't know like who am i

1547
02:00:20,175 --> 02:00:25,715
gonna be talking to on nostor it's like so so but whatever i know that some people some cool people

1548
02:00:25,715 --> 02:00:32,555
are there i don't think like if i go he supported your drive chains and you won't even i know host

1549
02:00:32,555 --> 02:00:40,355
on around on nostor for a few hours i had amethyst on my phone for like a few weeks at some point

1550
02:00:40,355 --> 02:00:44,815
i don't know is that still like what are the good uh you know what are the good what are the good

1551
02:00:44,815 --> 02:00:49,775
apps what are they good i don't know none of them are good man yeah ux is terrible yeah well that's

1552
02:00:49,775 --> 02:00:55,855
the problem is that um people i don't think they realize exactly they they have a decent idea that

1553
02:00:55,855 --> 02:00:59,435
there's a problem but no one really knows exactly what the problem is and it's very hard to solve

1554
02:00:59,435 --> 02:01:04,275
the problem if you don't know what it is although that does occasionally happen but i think it's

1555
02:01:04,275 --> 02:01:10,415
kind of like people don't like the algorithm but then you choose when you wake up in the morning

1556
02:01:10,415 --> 02:01:16,335
you choose to like go on twitter or whatever so in a way you do like that it's like guys but then

1557
02:01:16,335 --> 02:01:20,535
Why did Elon have to buy Twitter for billions of dollars?

1558
02:01:21,375 --> 02:01:28,215
Because you could replicate the tech stack easily for like $2 million, right?

1559
02:01:28,295 --> 02:01:33,835
So why pay over 1,000 times, over 10,000 times more?

1560
02:01:34,895 --> 02:01:38,315
Because the network effect, because all the other people are still there.

1561
02:01:38,475 --> 02:01:39,535
So that's what it's worth.

1562
02:01:40,855 --> 02:01:44,535
So in that sense, it's very pessimistic because it says we're just locked in.

1563
02:01:44,535 --> 02:01:47,495
we're locked in the same room as everyone else and we can't escape.

1564
02:01:47,695 --> 02:01:48,835
We're in like a weird equilibrium.

1565
02:01:50,415 --> 02:01:53,175
So I don't know. I don't know. I think that question,

1566
02:01:53,295 --> 02:01:56,315
I'm very open-minded, but very skeptical to that.

1567
02:01:57,415 --> 02:02:00,815
To me, the telegram project seems to be going better where, and then again,

1568
02:02:00,815 --> 02:02:05,355
this is just completely ruled by one ruler, but they,

1569
02:02:05,675 --> 02:02:10,155
the user experience is good. Mostly stuff is unsent.

1570
02:02:10,155 --> 02:02:12,015
You can use the telegram to just censor.

1571
02:02:12,015 --> 02:02:15,495
you have encrypted messages that you encrypt and just send them back and forth to people

1572
02:02:15,495 --> 02:02:22,355
um i think a telegram bot situation or like a telegram you know they have like the little

1573
02:02:22,355 --> 02:02:28,155
telegram like you can do like little stuff or you can have like a little store or a little thing

1574
02:02:28,155 --> 02:02:36,035
uh that seems like it works it seems like that's actually making progress towards something

1575
02:02:36,035 --> 02:02:40,495
i don't know what not what nostor because again of course nostor was partially created

1576
02:02:40,495 --> 02:02:45,115
in the wake of rampant censorship on Twitter

1577
02:02:45,115 --> 02:02:47,795
from the US federal government

1578
02:02:47,795 --> 02:02:50,735
that was blatantly illegal, I think,

1579
02:02:51,695 --> 02:02:54,655
of like with the government pressuring them

1580
02:02:54,655 --> 02:02:58,855
to suppress people's speech.

1581
02:03:01,035 --> 02:03:03,655
And so, but then Elon bought it.

1582
02:03:03,655 --> 02:03:04,635
So that made that different.

1583
02:03:04,755 --> 02:03:07,135
And then we have the administration switch

1584
02:03:07,135 --> 02:03:08,735
from Democrats to Republicans.

1585
02:03:08,787 --> 02:03:12,247
So both of those things got shuffled out anyway.

1586
02:03:12,547 --> 02:03:13,887
So I'm not exactly sure.

1587
02:03:14,947 --> 02:03:16,807
But I'm not sure what to make of it.

1588
02:03:16,907 --> 02:03:20,807
But I think I should probably get on there at least and experiment with it more.

1589
02:03:20,967 --> 02:03:21,567
I think so.

1590
02:03:21,747 --> 02:03:24,987
But still, I'm skeptical and open-minded at the same time.

1591
02:03:26,667 --> 02:03:28,627
Well, the revolution won't have good UX.

1592
02:03:29,087 --> 02:03:30,447
So that's my Nostra thought.

1593
02:03:30,447 --> 02:03:35,247
it's tough if you don't have the good ux because

1594
02:03:35,247 --> 02:03:41,847
that's just it makes it hard for anyone to yeah get what they want so

1595
02:03:41,847 --> 02:03:50,147
yeah i guess my final thought is on it is that you know it's a question of identity um

1596
02:03:50,147 --> 02:03:57,447
what is it for like it is nostre for you know zapping each other's custodial lightning wallets

1597
02:03:57,447 --> 02:04:01,947
for what slot you know is like that what we need nostril for we can do that on on twitter

1598
02:04:01,947 --> 02:04:09,547
i think that's a very good point that this has fueled people's misunderstanding of lightning

1599
02:04:09,547 --> 02:04:14,187
like of course when a lot of times people will invent something in technology and then they'll

1600
02:04:14,187 --> 02:04:18,927
do whatever they call the pivot you know it will it'll evolve into being used for something that

1601
02:04:18,927 --> 02:04:25,947
was different than intended and so is that the case is that is is nostril as is it just a vehicle

1602
02:04:25,947 --> 02:04:29,827
is it just a giant lightning marketing campaign?

1603
02:04:30,987 --> 02:04:32,207
Because imagine this.

1604
02:04:32,287 --> 02:04:34,147
Imagine you're raising money for your lightning startup.

1605
02:04:34,987 --> 02:04:38,187
You use a non-custodial.

1606
02:04:39,387 --> 02:04:41,767
You have a non-custodial lightning company.

1607
02:04:43,547 --> 02:04:47,367
And the numbers aren't going great because it's non-custodial,

1608
02:04:47,467 --> 02:04:48,127
so it doesn't work.

1609
02:04:48,867 --> 02:04:49,807
You have whatever it is.

1610
02:04:49,827 --> 02:04:51,247
I hate to give an example, but whatever.

1611
02:04:51,467 --> 02:04:53,547
You have Moon or something, whatever it is.

1612
02:04:53,547 --> 02:05:03,727
And so then, but you have an edge, which is that you also secretly on the side, you run Primal, which is fully custodial.

1613
02:05:04,427 --> 02:05:08,227
And then you link it with Noster because you're like, this is great for the Lightning brand.

1614
02:05:08,467 --> 02:05:09,807
So it's all the Lightning brand.

1615
02:05:09,807 --> 02:05:15,827
So you just say, oh, I'm just going to pump up the Lightning brand with all these fake Lightning transactions where there's no Lightning transaction at all.

1616
02:05:16,007 --> 02:05:19,807
When you do the Primal to Primal zap, there is no Lightning transaction.

1617
02:05:19,987 --> 02:05:20,747
There's no HTLC.

1618
02:05:21,107 --> 02:05:21,627
There's no anything.

1619
02:05:21,627 --> 02:05:25,887
so it'll be completely fake but it'll make lightning look good and then i'll be able to

1620
02:05:25,887 --> 02:05:32,487
raise money for whatever it is phoenix or whatever and so then i then i get the real plan is to get

1621
02:05:32,487 --> 02:05:38,107
three million dollars and then i can just spend it however i want after you you know you raise it to

1622
02:05:38,107 --> 02:05:44,447
do lightning and now like you have now you have a job so uh i don't know use the money to advertise

1623
02:05:44,447 --> 02:05:50,207
on podcasts yeah right then that's all that's that's the last ingredient ingredient uh just a

1624
02:05:50,207 --> 02:05:53,987
And then some virtue signaling on the regular Twitter.

1625
02:05:55,907 --> 02:06:01,027
So yeah, that's like probably at least like 60% of the business models in Bitcoin today.

1626
02:06:01,027 --> 02:06:08,827
Some version of that of just like how do we keep certain words in vogue, you know, certain popular words somehow.

1627
02:06:09,607 --> 02:06:15,387
And through some combination of open source software and paying people off.

1628
02:06:15,387 --> 02:06:21,527
um so yeah then the real thing it's like what they would always say why do the pharmaceutical

1629
02:06:21,527 --> 02:06:30,987
companies advertise on news it's not to that because they care about anyone buying the product

1630
02:06:30,987 --> 02:06:37,127
it's because they want to make the news companies feel uncomfortable uh criticizing

1631
02:06:37,127 --> 02:06:42,207
the pharmaceutical company under any circumstances this is the same thing it's like you know the

1632
02:06:42,207 --> 02:06:46,967
lightning people will sponsor stefan levera or whatever and then it's like oh okay like so

1633
02:06:46,967 --> 02:06:53,427
you're never going to get the truth about how lightning doesn't work uh from them or at least

1634
02:06:53,427 --> 02:06:59,767
it's much it's going to go a lot slower so yeah but uh yeah now it's uh there's more than two hours

1635
02:06:59,767 --> 02:07:07,747
so um this has been really fun i know i know at least one good luck in your quest to mess with

1636
02:07:07,747 --> 02:07:12,707
people i'm sorry oh we're just reporting the news we're not messing with anybody but yeah i know at

1637
02:07:12,707 --> 02:07:18,567
least one company that was upset with me for writing that uh they had bad ux and that lightning

1638
02:07:18,567 --> 02:07:26,647
had bad ux in uh bitcoin magazine but uh yeah well i'll read the we got only got a few more

1639
02:07:26,647 --> 02:07:35,087
but sean 1000 sat says i'm immediately buying a first trinket that was oh sorry

1640
02:07:35,087 --> 02:07:41,927
i said paul you can run we can finish the boosts no no i'm fine i can't have more time so yeah

1641
02:07:41,927 --> 02:07:44,147
let's do see if there's any good boosts

1642
02:07:46,147 --> 02:07:56,647
i think i cut out for the last one uh apologies folks i've got a bad internet connection but um

1643
02:07:58,227 --> 02:08:04,447
sean says i'm immediately buying the trinket that runs temple oos there you go

1644
02:08:04,447 --> 02:08:08,287
knock us 808 sats live aloha

1645
02:08:08,287 --> 02:08:17,827
rev hodl says all bitcoin transactions are economic transactions the more hash one owns

1646
02:08:17,827 --> 02:08:26,147
and operates the more clear this becomes i think yeah if you buy the if you pay for the block space

1647
02:08:26,147 --> 02:08:39,760
you are the you at least the rightful owner of that block space we already have the consensus rules to stop people from spamming the blockchain with stuff that will shut off people nodes So I would definitely agree

1648
02:08:44,180 --> 02:08:45,660
Next one, 500

1649
02:08:45,660 --> 02:08:47,880
stats from Sasha. Great show.

1650
02:08:48,080 --> 02:08:49,920
Congrats on the University of Bitcoin

1651
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:50,640
scholarship.

1652
02:08:52,440 --> 02:08:53,220
Hell yeah.

1653
02:08:54,220 --> 02:08:55,760
So just for context,

1654
02:08:56,220 --> 02:08:57,780
Paul, Stu was

1655
02:08:57,780 --> 02:09:03,560
expelled from bitcoin university and so the university i remember yeah i i caught i got caught

1656
02:09:03,560 --> 02:09:08,400
a few episodes that was one of the ones that i that i saw that was great that's one of the funniest

1657
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:14,420
screenshots i've seen in bitcoin in a while just the i got expelled or whatever i'm just like why

1658
02:09:14,420 --> 02:09:19,200
would you but i mean that's what's really funny is like i think he's mortally afraid of like anyone

1659
02:09:19,200 --> 02:09:25,260
who actually knows about bitcoin like going through the thing it's seeing like because and

1660
02:09:25,260 --> 02:09:28,560
And without any doubt, I'm sure there's just a lot of mistakes in there too.

1661
02:09:28,940 --> 02:09:36,860
So I hate to say that, but it's just – it's obvious from the way he talks that he's not really that interested in Bitcoin actually.

1662
02:09:37,040 --> 02:09:38,600
He's just like kind of an operator.

1663
02:09:38,900 --> 02:09:42,160
He's just there to get the eyeballs or something.

1664
02:09:42,980 --> 02:09:44,180
Collect his tuition money.

1665
02:09:47,060 --> 02:09:47,540
Yeah.

1666
02:09:47,540 --> 02:09:55,540
uh shadrack 323 sats is mile high boost hashtag 40 hpw

1667
02:09:55,540 --> 02:10:05,660
we got pies 121 sats yo yo yo

1668
02:10:05,660 --> 02:10:13,960
pies is probably the most prolific bitcoin podcast listener of all time

1669
02:10:17,540 --> 02:10:22,680
And our final boost, BTC on board, 100 sats, two thumbs up emojis.

1670
02:10:23,520 --> 02:10:24,540
Thank you for the boost, folks.

1671
02:10:24,700 --> 02:10:25,740
So what do you think, Paul?

1672
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:28,700
You just witnessed custodial lightning.

1673
02:10:31,020 --> 02:10:32,600
Well, yeah, and you get 100 sats.

1674
02:10:32,740 --> 02:10:34,160
So, of course, it makes no sense.

1675
02:10:34,160 --> 02:10:45,920
If you understand the design of lightning, like there's no way that they have to have a special carve out for amounts that are too low because the ink it would require to write the HTLC to the blockchain.

1676
02:10:47,540 --> 02:10:50,000
it doesn't actually work.

1677
02:10:50,320 --> 02:10:53,140
You would lose more money just broadcasting to the chain

1678
02:10:53,140 --> 02:10:55,480
than the 100 sats you would collect.

1679
02:10:55,480 --> 02:10:59,600
And so it's like they have a special carve-out

1680
02:10:59,600 --> 02:11:01,100
that doesn't use the HLCs.

1681
02:11:01,160 --> 02:11:02,440
But when you do the intermediate notes,

1682
02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:04,000
so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1683
02:11:04,060 --> 02:11:05,300
I mean, I'm a huge lightning skeptic,

1684
02:11:05,300 --> 02:11:06,440
and everyone can watch my debate.

1685
02:11:06,560 --> 02:11:08,700
I debate the whole room at TabConf,

1686
02:11:09,460 --> 02:11:11,560
which is like the most technical audience you can find.

1687
02:11:12,640 --> 02:11:14,960
But yeah, that last guy had the Activate CTV,

1688
02:11:15,120 --> 02:11:17,140
or Ellen Hance in his name.

1689
02:11:17,540 --> 02:11:26,640
And, yeah, I see this a lot too because some people had – not that many, but some people had like a BIP300 car-like icon thing.

1690
02:11:27,380 --> 02:11:33,380
And because this is how Taproot activated and how SegWit activated, so people have kind of been trained to do this.

1691
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:36,080
But I think it's important.

1692
02:11:36,080 --> 02:11:40,140
I like when people do that and they say activate – they put it like in their name.

1693
02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:42,780
I support CTV or I support Ellen Hance or whatever.

1694
02:11:42,780 --> 02:11:53,860
I think, though, that we have to reflect on how little progress they have all made towards activation and like that nothing has happened at all.

1695
02:11:54,040 --> 02:11:59,340
So every time you see that, you have to wonder, like, is this person, do they not realize that this isn't working at all?

1696
02:11:59,760 --> 02:12:08,780
Or are they, do they realize that it's not working and are they so passionate that they are willing to endure this humiliation in order to help change the world?

1697
02:12:08,780 --> 02:12:14,960
i hope though i hope those same people feel to realize the same thing about uh hashtag free

1698
02:12:14,960 --> 02:12:20,340
samurai like are we is there are we really getting anything out of this it's nice it's cool it's glad

1699
02:12:20,340 --> 02:12:26,920
to see that you support that but anything else well i really would have preferred um i actually

1700
02:12:26,920 --> 02:12:31,180
made a whole site for this but i just didn't i had a lot on my plate and i by the time i launched

1701
02:12:31,180 --> 02:12:36,920
the site it was too late uh and it was like basically uh but i wanted to make a site where

1702
02:12:36,920 --> 02:12:38,580
I wanted to do because I was very confused.

1703
02:12:38,660 --> 02:12:40,960
You guys helped make me confused and deranged.

1704
02:12:41,120 --> 02:12:53,840
I slightly blame you guys because you had your funny video with the – where it was like for the Las Vegas conference and then it was like there would be like people in tuxedos who kind of vaguely look like Michael Saylor.

1705
02:12:53,840 --> 02:12:59,360
And then it was like, oh, but then we're going to have midget wrestling in Las Vegas.

1706
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:07,040
And so you guys or at least your constellation of Twitter associates were the originators of this.

1707
02:13:07,400 --> 02:13:08,520
That's how I found out about this thing.

1708
02:13:09,160 --> 02:13:12,640
And there's going to be a samurai – there's going to be a fundraiser for samurai there.

1709
02:13:13,020 --> 02:13:15,860
And I dragged multiple extremely rich friends.

1710
02:13:16,380 --> 02:13:17,640
I was like, you got to come to this and donate.

1711
02:13:18,660 --> 02:13:19,820
And I was like, it's midget wrestling.

1712
02:13:19,920 --> 02:13:20,320
It's insane.

1713
02:13:20,400 --> 02:13:22,120
These guys are like punk rock.

1714
02:13:22,500 --> 02:13:23,280
They can't be controlled.

1715
02:13:23,560 --> 02:13:24,900
They are literally insane people.

1716
02:13:25,420 --> 02:13:26,820
And I dragged them there.

1717
02:13:26,820 --> 02:13:39,320
But there was no – when I was there, I mean I was a little late, but there was no like – what I was expecting was like we're going to like send around the hat or whatever and people are going to like write down donations or something.

1718
02:13:40,060 --> 02:13:41,000
And that never actually happened.

1719
02:13:41,100 --> 02:13:42,240
I was like confused by that.

1720
02:13:42,340 --> 02:13:48,900
And then by the time I figured it out, I wanted to make like a new site and it may still even be on the internet or something.

1721
02:13:49,040 --> 02:13:50,720
And I made like a big thing.

1722
02:13:50,820 --> 02:14:02,753
I made like a big FAQ with like a lot of texts You would hate it because there lots of it very busy But it was like I was going to raise money for like a prize There was going to be something like we will give all we going to raise all this money

1723
02:14:02,753 --> 02:14:06,693
and we will give it to Samurai's lawyers if they get off scot-free.

1724
02:14:07,013 --> 02:14:10,093
But if not, we will give it to Samurai or their families or something.

1725
02:14:10,813 --> 02:14:12,273
And I was going to do something like that.

1726
02:14:12,433 --> 02:14:13,833
And I thought that was way better.

1727
02:14:13,833 --> 02:14:20,693
And I know someone personally who donated over, I think over a million dollars to the free Samurai.

1728
02:14:20,693 --> 02:14:39,593
And so it just goes to the lawyers and now they didn't get freed. I'm not trying to go too deeply into this thing. I don't know that much about it. But I've had tremendously good luck with the prize model is a very good model.

1729
02:14:39,593 --> 02:14:51,113
And you see there's kind of an underlying logic to it, even though it's very skeptical and it's kind of like it's not great for – it's not great for getting people to like you, but it is good for getting a job done.

1730
02:14:52,193 --> 02:15:03,193
And there was even like debatably – it's debatably – I'm not sure the legality of like if they're ordered to pay the restitution, if they could have seized that money or something from the fund.

1731
02:15:03,193 --> 02:15:15,933
But there was also a lot of precedence that even in like a famous movie, there was that famous movie about the Aaron Brockovich or whatever, where she has to sell it to the plebs basically.

1732
02:15:16,113 --> 02:15:20,213
She has to explain to them like why are they agreeing to this like 30 percent cut in thing.

1733
02:15:20,773 --> 02:15:27,333
And because he had already structured the lawsuit that way, knowing that these clients are like too poor to take on this giant company.

1734
02:15:28,153 --> 02:15:30,953
So I was interested in that.

1735
02:15:30,953 --> 02:15:33,233
And so, yeah, I'm an enemy of cheap talk.

1736
02:15:33,553 --> 02:15:39,493
And if you're in favor of prediction markets, you're an enemy of cheap talk and you really want to get at the truth.

1737
02:15:40,453 --> 02:15:48,493
And, yeah, I think in the Bitcoin community, there have been times where we found a lot of money to do all kinds of fundraising in the past.

1738
02:15:48,673 --> 02:15:50,633
And I think a lot of those people are still out there.

1739
02:15:51,393 --> 02:16:00,413
But it's just – with the samurai, I do think it was like – it was kind of confusing because you didn't ever really know.

1740
02:16:00,413 --> 02:16:08,913
So maybe you could – I mean my thought was you didn't really ever know like what to donate to or how it would help or how it would actually move the needle.

1741
02:16:09,773 --> 02:16:13,253
And eventually I decided to try to do it myself and by the time I finished this website, it was too late.

1742
02:16:13,913 --> 02:16:16,333
And that was just me making a website just describing like what I would do.

1743
02:16:16,333 --> 02:16:28,133
I think you might be able to say that we have been infiltrated by people either intentionally or not who are just very good at jamming all the communications by just dumping all this spam.

1744
02:16:28,673 --> 02:16:29,433
And it's a lot harder.

1745
02:16:29,433 --> 02:16:31,473
also the community is larger now

1746
02:16:31,473 --> 02:16:33,313
it's a lot harder

1747
02:16:33,313 --> 02:16:35,953
but in the past you did have

1748
02:16:35,953 --> 02:16:36,833
people who would

1749
02:16:36,833 --> 02:16:39,933
the thing where you would find someone like

1750
02:16:39,933 --> 02:16:41,653
Jack Dorsey to do the

1751
02:16:41,653 --> 02:16:43,833
COPA lawsuit

1752
02:16:43,833 --> 02:16:46,133
that I think

1753
02:16:46,133 --> 02:16:48,073
that I can remember all the previous times

1754
02:16:48,073 --> 02:16:50,013
when stuff like that would happen where we would find like a

1755
02:16:50,013 --> 02:16:52,053
patron I think other things

1756
02:16:52,053 --> 02:16:53,493
that contributed to this being different

1757
02:16:53,493 --> 02:16:55,873
was that like people like Roger Veer

1758
02:16:55,873 --> 02:16:56,913
he was a huge

1759
02:16:56,913 --> 02:17:03,033
small i mean excuse huge large blocker and so then we kind of like forced him out we also forced

1760
02:17:03,033 --> 02:17:06,773
like brian armstrong out so where there were there were like some like rich business people

1761
02:17:06,773 --> 02:17:16,973
who in the past i think they did finance a lot of stuff like for free uh and as just a partly as a

1762
02:17:16,973 --> 02:17:21,233
casualty of the block size war this all got like kind of ripped apart to some extent but even in

1763
02:17:21,233 --> 02:17:25,293
the small blocker world there were these there are these huge super rich people people behind chain

1764
02:17:25,293 --> 02:17:31,853
code and stuff like that. So I'm a little confused as to why this, the samurai case went the way it

1765
02:17:31,853 --> 02:17:37,053
did exactly. And I don't understand it. I tried to figure it out and I'm, I'm a little baffled by

1766
02:17:37,053 --> 02:17:42,553
it. So I don't know what that meant, but yeah, I'm in favor of a free samurai. I think you got

1767
02:17:42,553 --> 02:17:46,933
to start, maybe if you don't know what to do, you just start with putting free samurai and then you

1768
02:17:46,933 --> 02:17:52,833
just hope that the right people will find you and, uh, or something. So, but yeah, uh, cheap talk is

1769
02:17:52,833 --> 02:17:58,233
also not not great but i guess it's better than no talk at all i love the idea of the prediction

1770
02:17:58,233 --> 02:18:06,793
market but um you know paul you have so much to say that is interesting i i i like that you're

1771
02:18:06,793 --> 02:18:11,913
doing these twitter spaces but i i think it's important for you to start a podcast and um

1772
02:18:12,873 --> 02:18:20,693
this has been this has been an absolute pleasure i wish that we could keep on going uh but i'm

1773
02:18:20,693 --> 02:18:23,853
I'm currently sitting in a room that is approaching pitch black.

1774
02:18:24,353 --> 02:18:25,293
There's no lights in here.

1775
02:18:28,033 --> 02:18:30,433
You're easily the smartest Polish man.

1776
02:18:30,533 --> 02:18:31,793
Hey, just invite me on.

1777
02:18:32,873 --> 02:18:35,233
You can invite me on at any time.

1778
02:18:35,933 --> 02:18:36,813
We'll have to do it again.

1779
02:18:37,133 --> 02:18:39,733
You're easily the smartest Polish man I've ever met.

1780
02:18:42,153 --> 02:18:43,293
Well, thank you.

1781
02:18:46,333 --> 02:18:48,413
Poland's looking great.

1782
02:18:48,413 --> 02:18:56,633
The GDP per capita is like higher than the UK and they're going to like – pretty soon we'll have a Polish Manhattan project and it will be a world power.

1783
02:18:57,533 --> 02:19:01,833
Polish – Poland is setting the example in Europe and that is the truth.

1784
02:19:02,193 --> 02:19:06,833
And they took in – they kept out – I don't want to make – we don't want to touch too many hot button issues.

1785
02:19:06,833 --> 02:19:27,826
But let just say their immigration policy was to keep certain people be very skeptical of certain groups and then also to welcome with open arms an enormous number of a certain other group that was in dire straits and take them into the country which both decisions have paid off

1786
02:19:27,926 --> 02:19:32,186
So they don't have like a cookie cutter, like we close the border or open the border.

1787
02:19:32,466 --> 02:19:38,106
They instead actually thought about what they would want and what they thought was the right

1788
02:19:38,106 --> 02:19:38,626
thing to do.

1789
02:19:38,746 --> 02:19:39,766
And they did that.

1790
02:19:39,806 --> 02:19:41,386
And it seems to have worked both times.

1791
02:19:41,386 --> 02:19:43,446
So I'm very happy now.

1792
02:19:43,526 --> 02:19:45,986
I'm being more proud of being Polish than ever.

1793
02:19:45,986 --> 02:19:47,266
in recent years.

1794
02:19:48,346 --> 02:19:51,206
Well, thank you for coming on.

1795
02:19:51,346 --> 02:19:51,666
I agree.

1796
02:19:51,886 --> 02:19:52,866
Maybe we should end it here

1797
02:19:52,866 --> 02:19:54,406
or we'll just keep going on and on forever.

1798
02:19:56,046 --> 02:19:58,766
Because I think one person's going to be,

1799
02:19:58,846 --> 02:20:00,926
he's disappearing into the shadow realm.

1800
02:20:15,986 --> 02:20:36,066
Where have all the breaking posts gone and where did Dennis go?

1801
02:20:36,986 --> 02:20:42,626
Paper Bitcoin winter is feeling cold as I trudge through the snow.

1802
02:20:42,626 --> 02:20:49,106
Is there any hope of important announcements to come and save the day?

1803
02:20:50,326 --> 02:20:55,926
It feels like all hope is lost and all I can do is pray

1804
02:20:55,926 --> 02:20:57,926
I need an announcement

1805
02:20:57,926 --> 02:21:02,726
I'm holding out for Dennis to get back into the fight

1806
02:21:02,726 --> 02:21:05,986
He's gotta be brave and he's gotta be sharp

1807
02:21:05,986 --> 02:21:09,186
Or things ain't gonna be alright

1808
02:21:09,186 --> 02:21:11,126
I need an announcement

1809
02:21:11,126 --> 02:21:12,326
Announcement

1810
02:21:12,326 --> 02:21:15,586
I'm holding out for Dennis to set things right

1811
02:21:15,586 --> 02:21:19,126
He's gotta be bold and he's gotta be loud

1812
02:21:19,126 --> 02:21:23,706
He's gotta bring the bull market back to life

1813
02:21:23,706 --> 02:21:35,726
I look at macro charts and all the models all look really bad

1814
02:21:35,726 --> 02:21:39,826
People who are bullish seem to be filled with hope

1815
02:21:39,826 --> 02:21:42,366
The outlook looking sad

1816
02:21:42,366 --> 02:21:46,046
The price dips once more

1817
02:21:46,046 --> 02:21:49,306
As the OGs sell their bags

1818
02:21:49,306 --> 02:21:53,266
Paper Bitcoin isn't cool no more

1819
02:21:53,266 --> 02:21:55,966
The cobbler is wearing rags

1820
02:21:55,966 --> 02:21:57,466
I need an announcement

1821
02:21:57,466 --> 02:22:02,286
I'm holding out for Dennis to get back into the fight

1822
02:22:02,286 --> 02:22:05,546
He's gotta be brave and he's gotta be sharp

1823
02:22:05,546 --> 02:22:08,806
Or things ain't gonna be alright

1824
02:22:08,806 --> 02:22:10,726
I need an announcement

1825
02:22:10,726 --> 02:22:11,866
Announcement

1826
02:22:11,866 --> 02:22:15,306
I'm holding out for Dennis to set things right

1827
02:22:15,306 --> 02:22:18,726
He's gotta be bold and he's gotta be loud

1828
02:22:18,726 --> 02:22:22,426
He's gotta bring the bull market back to life

1829
02:22:38,806 --> 02:23:02,026
The cold begins to grow as doubt takes its hold.

1830
02:23:02,026 --> 02:23:08,706
Longs are getting liquidated as sentiment implodes

1831
02:23:08,706 --> 02:23:15,026
Satoshi action is more like Satoshi running high

1832
02:23:15,026 --> 02:23:21,766
The bears are in control and we all need a guide

1833
02:23:21,766 --> 02:23:27,406
But the night is always darkest before dawn

1834
02:23:27,406 --> 02:23:35,046
Maybe Dennis has been working to protect our rights all along

1835
02:23:35,046 --> 02:23:38,306
Protect our rights all along

1836
02:23:38,306 --> 02:23:41,666
Protect our rights all along

1837
02:23:41,666 --> 02:23:44,926
Protect our rights all along

1838
02:23:44,926 --> 02:23:47,726
Dun dun dun dun

1839
02:23:47,726 --> 02:23:50,026
I need an announcement

1840
02:23:50,026 --> 02:23:54,806
I'm holding out for Dennis to get back into the fight

1841
02:23:54,806 --> 02:23:58,066
He's gotta be brave and he's gotta be sharp

1842
02:23:58,066 --> 02:24:01,286
Or things ain't gonna be alright

1843
02:24:01,286 --> 02:24:03,266
I need an announcement

1844
02:24:03,266 --> 02:24:07,906
I'm holding out for Dennis to set things right

1845
02:24:07,906 --> 02:24:11,266
He's gotta be bold and he's gotta be loud

1846
02:24:11,266 --> 02:24:14,766
He's gotta bring the bull market back to life

1847
02:24:14,766 --> 02:24:16,506
I need an announcement

1848
02:24:16,506 --> 02:24:21,306
I'm holding out for Dennis to get back into the fight

1849
02:24:21,306 --> 02:24:24,546
He's gotta be brave and he's gotta be sharp

1850
02:24:24,546 --> 02:24:27,846
When things ain't gonna be alright

1851
02:24:27,846 --> 02:24:29,786
I need an announcement

1852
02:24:29,786 --> 02:24:34,406
I'm holding out for Dennis to set things right

1853
02:24:34,406 --> 02:24:37,746
He's gotta be bold and he's gotta be loud

1854
02:24:37,746 --> 02:24:41,426
He's gotta bring the bull market back to life