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It's incredibly easy to save in Bitcoin.

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Once you have a conviction, it's not hard.

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I slept better at night.

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I literally slept better at night by holding Bitcoin than dollars.

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What made me not sleep better at night is not doing something about onboarding the millions

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of merchants that are still currently completely clueless about how money works.

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and the brokenness of our current financial situation

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and the importance of,

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if you want to have an enduring, durable company,

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the importance of understanding hard money

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and saving some in that form of money.

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Bitcoin is a currency on the internet.

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If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go.

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It's going to outperform everything.

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Bitcoin could eventually be worthless.

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Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.

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Bitcoin getting a new high.

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It really has reached escape velocity.

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There is no second best.

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Who cares about Bitcoin?

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It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.

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Antisocial.

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Bitcoin is the real deal.

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Stupid.

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Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

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Immoral.

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It's going up forever, Laura.

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Fix the money.

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Fix the world.

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Thank you.

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to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets professional

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services. We explore how to build a financial service industry within the principles, values,

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and ethos of Bitcoin. Today, we're joined by Jason Keel, CEO and founder of Polaris Payments.

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You're not going to want to miss it. Let's get started.

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Alrighty, welcome back to another episode of the Bitcoin for Financial Services podcast. Man,

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we're doing some podcasts this week. I know we're having to take next week off.

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One of us is taking next week off. Say again? One of us is taking next week off.

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One of us. Yeah. Is it Jason? Is it Wyatt? Or is it Jordan?

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Speaking of Jason, today we have the treat of Jason Keel is on the podcast from Polaris Payments.

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And Jason has just a deep background in kind of payments processing, which is a hot topic in

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the Bitcoin space because I think everyone agrees that store value, but now everyone's

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trying to figure out, Hey, is there medium of exchange here? What's that story look like?

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Our AI agents going to be paying each other in Bitcoin over lightning. So,

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Jason, thank you for being here. You're a good friend. We've known each other for about a year

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now and welcome to the podcast, man. Excited to be here. Excited to dive in with you guys.

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yeah why don't you guys you guys had a little bit more time to kind of catch up and game plan

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maybe some things we might talk about um why where do you want to take the conversation first

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yeah i do kind of want to just start you know high level here so i think it's been pretty well

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popularized this idea of currency maturation cycle of store value medium exchange you know

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account jason you're obviously really in depth in this field why don't you kind of give us an

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overview of where you think Bitcoin is at today, how it's matured to date, and then just kind of

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your thoughts on where we're moving in the near future. Yeah. I mean, I obviously, despite being

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in a bear market, the store value use case is pretty proven. And we've got, you know, nation

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states and publicly traded companies and everybody's buying Bitcoin. But the medium of exchange era is

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We're early to that.

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And so that is part of my efforts.

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I spent the last 16 years in payments and helping small, medium-sized businesses.

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I found it really frustrating when I started in the business because so many of them are

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overpaying.

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They have bad tech, they have bad customer service.

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The list goes on.

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And I spent all of these years doing as much work as I could helping them improve that.

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And I'm very proud. We've saved millions of dollars for small and medium-sized businesses, and we've helped them in so many ways.

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But part of why I got into Bitcoin is I just got so tired of shrugging my shoulders and saying, that's just the way it is.

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And when they would call me on a Monday and say, why didn't I get my money?

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And I say, it's a banking holiday. I know you need to pay your employees, but you're not going to get paid today.

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It's just the way it is.

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The banks are closed.

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I know you're paying excessive fees, but it's just the way it is that the card brands charge

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all of these fees.

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I know that you got rug pulled by this customer and they got the issue to charge back and

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the card brand cited on the customer and you're not ever going to get your money and you already

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paid your vendors and your employees, but it's just the way it is.

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And the crazy thing about Bitcoin is it flips all of that upside down.

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It literally solves like almost every pain point.

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But we're very early, you know, not a lot of merchants yet except Bitcoin.

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And that's obviously changing each and every day.

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So, yeah, that's what I'm excited about.

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That's awesome.

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That's awesome.

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I appreciate the background there.

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And you're just curious in your opinion on this, you know, because I've just been, you know, an observer on X.

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But when Block rolled out, their point of sale, merchants being able to natively accept Bitcoin, to you being more in the payment space, how big of a deal was that?

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I mean, it's massive because the friction right now, I've talked to so many business owners who want to accept Bitcoin and it's just too hard.

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The tools just aren't there.

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If you're a solopreneur, it's much easier.

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But if you've got staff, you have to train, you've got turnover with staff, you've got inventory and integration issues and the menu isn't there.

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It's not pre-populated under point of sale and the reporting isn't there and everything is fragmented.

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You have to pull out a separate iPhone in order to accept Bitcoin.

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It's just too much friction.

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It's just not possible.

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Even for hardcore Bitcoiners, it's just not.

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So the cool thing is that we now have a friction-free way to accept Bitcoin in a retail environment.

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Now, online, there's a lot of great tools, but retail, basically, nothing existed before Square.

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And now it's really easy, which is really cool.

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Yeah.

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And maybe talk about, you know, you mentioned that we're early on this side of things.

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I know you kind of went down a journey in 2025 of potentially trying to bring on more Bitcoin, you know, payments and just running into headwinds.

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I think maybe just give us like the like no holds barred, just like state of play of where we stand today with the Bitcoin payments versus the store value.

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And we're not even close to the unit of account at this point.

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I'm just curious how you have a very unique experience from last year.

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Yeah.

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So I've run this fiat payments company.

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We do credit card and ACH payments for the last 16 years.

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And then I had this aha moment.

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I sort of had this vision of my grandkids.

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It was like this hyperinflation world.

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My grandkids were like, Grandpa, why did you do something?

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Like you knew about Bitcoin.

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Why didn't you do something?

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And so I was like, well, I'm not a developer.

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I'm not techie.

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I don't know how to, you know, a lot of this Bitcoin stuff's over my head.

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And so I had to work with what I got, which is I know I know a lot about payments.

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I know a lot about merchants and how to help them.

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And so I just decided I was going to single handedly, you know, pull us into this medium of exchange here.

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All of Bitcoin all around the world.

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I was just going to do it.

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And so I built this website, BitcoinPaymentsAdvisor.com.

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And we helped a lot of merchants.

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But it's there's a lot of education to happen still. And so many merchants just didn't.

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It just takes some time. It takes a lot of time to understand the fundamentals.

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And the thing about a business owner, you know, if you're a wealth advisor, it's one thing to say, hey, here's the chart over the last 15 years of Bitcoin.

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If you look at a log chart, it's basically always up and to the right if you zoom out.

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Right. But for a business owner. You're just like in the weeds, you're in the trenches, you're just trying to like run your business and keep your employees happy and serve your customers.

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And so efficiency and and it just working is super important.

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And and a lot of them just don't have the time or bandwidth to really read books and listen to podcasts and really get into the depths of what is Bitcoin and how does it work?

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I've been excited to see some of these kind of as a transition from just accepting Bitcoin platforms to automated treasury management platforms for businesses.

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And that's been really cool to see because I think that it ties in the store value and the medium of exchange together.

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So Castle, for example, you can keep accepting your fiat regular, whatever preferred method the customer wants to pay with.

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Right. And then a portion of that transaction automatically gets converted into Bitcoin.

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Flash is another one where we're working on an integration with them where you can send an invoice out.

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The customer can pay in Lightning or in credit cards or ACH.

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And then you, regardless of how the customer pays, it doesn't matter.

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A portion of every transaction is going into Bitcoin.

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So that's a really fun tool.

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And I think kind of like repositioning instead of just accept Bitcoin as powerful as that is, we kind of have to meet the market with where we're at right now.

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And so I'm still pumped about onboarding tens of thousands of merchants.

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But so far, I think Jack Dorsey's got me beat right now.

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All good.

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That's a heavy hitter to have to go up against.

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I remember when we were in Tampa together, you just told some stories. I think it'd be helpful for our audience who they work with business owners day in and day out, or at least a lot of them do. Maybe tell us some of the stories that I think from our seat, at least in the CPA world, I don't necessarily hear the story of a chargeback or something that happened.

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Um, or even, you know, it's so, it's so easy for me to just look at the P and L and, and

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actually a lot of the times the top line revenue that we see is after, uh, credit card processing

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fees.

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Right.

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So we're not even fully aware cause we don't, I mean, we can make the journal entry to kind

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of gross up the figures, but, um, it's kind of like that example of, you know, you don't

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know how much taxes you pay cause you never check your pay stub.

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I think that's how a lot of business owners are.

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They're like, how much am I paying in credit card processing fees?

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I don't really know.

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And they like Visa and MasterCard and Amex.

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They want to keep it that way.

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So maybe go down that path and pull back the veil for everyone to really understand how big of a problem it is with credit card processing fees, chargebacks, and this hidden cost that can be crippling a business.

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Yeah, no, for sure.

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I mean, last year, their survey came out.

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The number one concern for merchants right now is inflation.

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And credit card processing, that is literally almost every day I get a phone call or I get an email, some kind of question about someone looking to reduce their credit card processing fees.

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Because the problem is that to accept money, it's really expensive just to accept money.

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we live in this digital money world and you know paper is out like that if you look at a chart

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adoption of credit card usage it's just up and to the right and covet accelerated that and it's a

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very digital payments world um and so if you have three percent margins you have zero percent margins

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like you're you're you have no margin um yeah and so it's it's very expensive for a cpa

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you know let's say we fund the merchant ten thousand dollars today and we pull out a thousand

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dollars because the customer gets a charge back because the merchant gets a charge back

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um well then we're going to deposit nine thousand and that's what the bookkeeper is going to see

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it's just going to be a nine thousand dollar deposit right so it it's not really going to

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be um unless a cpa or bookkeeper is really looking at a merchant statement um they're

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I'm not necessarily going to see those, but they do happen in certain industries.

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Some, it's pretty rare.

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And others, it happens, I mean, probably most of my clients, certainly not every day, but

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weekly or monthly.

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And it's a huge source of contention.

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In some cases they have to fax I not joking They have to fax a response in a fax machine Wait so like a card company

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Yes.

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Visa and MasterCard require...

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it's wild.

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Yeah.

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What is that, like the IRS standard for crying out loud?

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Yeah, it's one of the value propositions that I like pitch sometimes is like,

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we allow you to have an online portal where you can submit your chargeback response.

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And, you know, I know it's crazy.

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I.

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I'll give you one story about my client, Vicky.

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Vicky calls me one day.

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And it was like it was a tough conversation because she was.

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I could I could almost hear or see the tears in her eyes.

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and she said, Jason, it happened again.

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We did a, she owns a truck repair,

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like a trucking repair company, like semi-truck.

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Her team repairs those.

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And $4,000 and change dollar transaction

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got pulled right out of her bank account.

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Now she had already paid her employees.

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She had already paid for all the parts.

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She already paid for everything.

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And the customer knew, I think, what they were doing.

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They paid over the phone.

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They didn't have the physical card.

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And it's so much harder to dispute chargeback when you don't have documentation.

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Because Visa and MasterCard, they don't know who to side with.

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They have two customers.

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And they don't necessarily know, is it the cardholder?

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Is it the merchant?

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What do we do?

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So instead of having this he said, she said, it's just purely based on documentation.

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So it's a lot of work, but you have to show like signed receipts and signed invoices and, you know, card present transactions, much easier to win that dispute.

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And the customer knew they were defrauding the business.

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But how do you know that you're working with a fraudster when you're a merchant and you're just trying to provide legitimate service and fair, you know, jobs for your employees and do your work?

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And so she calls me one day and, I mean, she's just distraught because for her,

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you know, if you're a big business, $4,000, whatever.

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But if you're a small business owner, you're trying to keep the lights on.

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It's a tough competitive market for a lot of small business owners.

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You know, you wear all the hats.

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There's not a lot of delegation happening.

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You're probably the CFO and the CEO and the head of HR and all the things.

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And so you can get pretty overwhelmed as a small business.

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And so when you provide a legitimate service and you pay your team members for that and

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then you accept that money and then a few weeks or months go down, go by and then down

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the road, you get rug pulled.

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and then there's this large intermediary

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that you have no control over.

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Like, what are you going to sue Visa

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if you're a small business owner?

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You know, once they decide who gets to keep the money,

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that's it.

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And that's part of the value that we provide to our clients.

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But at the end of the day,

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there's a lot that we can do,

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But not every merchant has, you know, a relationship with their credit card processor and has someone to call.

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And in some cases, the cardholder still wins.

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And then you don't get to keep the money that you already accepted, right?

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So that, I mean, I started out the conversation at the very beginning of the pod with, I'm just so tired of shrugging my shoulders and saying that's just the way it is.

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But the reality is that I've gone years having these tough conversations and having to say, like, I'm so sorry.

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But that's just the way it is.

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Like, it's just Visa has decided, MasterCard, American Express, that they've made their decision.

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And there's really nothing that we can do at this point.

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And it's a really tough thing for a small business owner to hear at times.

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And they feel a lot of times they feel this.

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Like a victim, a victim, like I've been defrauded.

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Someone has to stand up like who is going to advocate for me?

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Do I call an attorney?

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00:18:48,315 --> 00:18:50,415
Do I do I file some kind of suit?

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What happens next?

248
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And I mean, I'm just encouraged by.

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The beautiful magic of Bitcoin and in the in the coming years where you've got transaction finality.

250
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and you've got this certainty

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that no one's going to come

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rug pull you from your money.

253
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The currency is not going to get debased overnight

254
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and they're not going to come

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00:19:14,815 --> 00:19:16,555
and take the transaction value

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after you've already done a good job

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providing the service.

258
00:19:23,655 --> 00:19:25,755
Your wealth deserves intention.

259
00:19:26,175 --> 00:19:27,815
Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused

260
00:19:27,815 --> 00:19:28,815
wealth management firm

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00:19:28,815 --> 00:19:30,435
built to help our clients find balance

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00:19:30,435 --> 00:19:31,655
between money and meaning.

263
00:19:31,655 --> 00:19:41,315
We integrate sound money strategies across four distinct personalized services, financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs and Bitcoin financial services.

264
00:19:41,755 --> 00:19:45,815
Your prosperity, your purpose, intentionally guided at Basilic Financial.

265
00:19:46,215 --> 00:19:49,575
Visit our website at basilic.io to schedule free consultation.

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It's interesting because like it's never even crossed my mind, honestly.

267
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I've had one chargeback in my entire, you know, firm's history.

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And it was a, and it was a guy who just, he made a mistake.

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Like he didn't under, he didn't recognize the thing.

270
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And, um, and he basically was just like, I'm just going to dispute this on Amex.

271
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And I texted him.

272
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I was like, Hey, what, what, you know, what's going on?

273
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I just saw this Levi guy.

274
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He's like, Oh, I'm sorry.

275
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Just re-invoiced me.

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And I did.

277
00:20:18,675 --> 00:20:26,795
and so it's just it's interesting to hear that story just because if you don't see it very often

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00:20:26,795 --> 00:20:32,695
you just are fully unaware and again we just I would say I don't know about why but I don't

279
00:20:32,695 --> 00:20:37,435
have a ton of the conversations about the credit card processing maybe also tell the story that we

280
00:20:37,435 --> 00:20:44,015
talked about while we were in Tampa together about just the pure like savings and how folks on

281
00:20:44,015 --> 00:20:50,795
certain platforms are just getting rugged on how much they're actually paying. It might not be just

282
00:20:50,795 --> 00:20:56,415
a pure 2.7%. Like I think everyone kind of thinks it is. It creeps above that, right?

283
00:20:57,455 --> 00:21:03,735
Yeah, no, for sure. That's one of the big value ads that I work really hard to provide

284
00:21:03,735 --> 00:21:10,735
to my merchants is just saving money. We're typically shooting for like 10 to 40% in savings,

285
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which as the volume goes up, the savings grows because it's percentage based.

286
00:21:16,475 --> 00:21:24,375
And for low average ticket merchants, we focus more on the per transaction fee because you really get hit with a few different fees.

287
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You have a per transaction fee of maybe 10 cents or 30 cents.

288
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You have a percentage fee of maybe two, three, 4%.

289
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And then in some cases, there's other monthly fees and different things.

290
00:21:35,815 --> 00:21:44,135
and a lot of uh i think a lot of consumers don't realize this because when you go to a business

291
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you pull out your credit card you're just like which one gives me the most points right like

292
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give me the the biggest rewards possible i want i want all the points right

293
00:21:53,995 --> 00:22:01,255
but for a business the there's a huge range there's over 100 different types of credit

294
00:22:01,255 --> 00:22:05,635
cards in circulation it's called interchange that's the wholesale rate and some of those

295
00:22:05,635 --> 00:22:11,535
cards are like regulated debit cards and maybe like 1% or less. But a lot of those cards are

296
00:22:11,535 --> 00:22:17,875
two and change or three and change percent. American Express charges more. And all of these

297
00:22:17,875 --> 00:22:23,575
fees get passed down to the merchant, ultimately. It's the merchant that pays. Now, we've seen in

298
00:22:23,575 --> 00:22:29,435
this kind of growth in what they call dual pricing or surcharge, where they're passing

299
00:22:29,435 --> 00:22:33,295
the fees on to the consumer. Hey, if you want to pay in credit card, that's fine. But you're the

300
00:22:33,295 --> 00:22:39,075
one who's going to pay the fees, not me, right? But the, you know, corporate reward cards,

301
00:22:39,275 --> 00:22:46,255
international cards, a lot of these reward cards are increasingly expensive to accept.

302
00:22:47,595 --> 00:22:54,395
And again, I mean, it's tough for a merchant when you're living in an inflationary environment,

303
00:22:54,395 --> 00:23:02,115
and your QuickBooks software is going up and your vendors and your, it's all very expensive.

304
00:23:03,295 --> 00:23:14,475
And then on top of that, you also have intermediaries that say you're in an industry that we don't approve of or that we consider high risk, right?

305
00:23:14,475 --> 00:23:16,315
So there's loads of industries.

306
00:23:16,755 --> 00:23:26,435
And it's not just ammunition and guns and adults and these industries that you would think more obvious, a gambling that are high risk.

307
00:23:26,435 --> 00:23:34,755
all kinds of everyday industries that are very legitimate sounding.

308
00:23:35,655 --> 00:23:41,535
They may be tacking on an additional 40 basis points or 80 basis points,

309
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1-2% on top of the...

310
00:23:43,455 --> 00:23:48,735
I mean, I know Bitcoin miners that are paying 5% in credit card processing fees

311
00:23:48,735 --> 00:23:50,835
just to accept money, right?

312
00:23:52,115 --> 00:23:54,615
And so it gets very expensive.

313
00:23:54,615 --> 00:23:58,475
And I'm excited about Lightning, which it's like basically free.

314
00:23:59,855 --> 00:24:03,275
But that's where it's at right now with credit cards.

315
00:24:03,415 --> 00:24:06,395
And ACH is better, but it's also still not free.

316
00:24:07,995 --> 00:24:09,075
And it takes forever.

317
00:24:10,315 --> 00:24:10,615
Yes.

318
00:24:11,175 --> 00:24:13,075
Yeah, it's so fascinating.

319
00:24:13,435 --> 00:24:15,175
Thank you for sharing that story, Vicky.

320
00:24:15,275 --> 00:24:17,815
I think that's just really eye-opening.

321
00:24:18,515 --> 00:24:21,075
Fortunately, I haven't had to really deal with that,

322
00:24:21,135 --> 00:24:23,775
but I can imagine the pain it causes

323
00:24:23,775 --> 00:24:25,395
and just the unclarity,

324
00:24:25,935 --> 00:24:28,335
you know, it just all seems so rent-seeking to me

325
00:24:28,335 --> 00:24:31,015
and kind of nefarious and not very transparent.

326
00:24:31,555 --> 00:24:32,515
You know, all the things, you know,

327
00:24:32,515 --> 00:24:34,715
we push back against in Bitcoin land.

328
00:24:35,075 --> 00:24:36,295
So would you say then,

329
00:24:36,615 --> 00:24:38,495
you know, maybe kind of put a bow on that,

330
00:24:38,855 --> 00:24:40,095
you know, with the Bitcoin,

331
00:24:40,895 --> 00:24:41,855
you know, payment advisor,

332
00:24:42,295 --> 00:24:43,555
you're getting a lot of interest

333
00:24:43,555 --> 00:24:45,895
or having success converting merchants

334
00:24:45,895 --> 00:24:48,735
because they're feeling the pain of fees

335
00:24:48,735 --> 00:24:51,615
or, you know, they've done their 40 hours

336
00:24:51,615 --> 00:24:54,135
of Bitcoin podcasts a week homework

337
00:24:54,135 --> 00:24:55,375
and they're just like,

338
00:24:55,835 --> 00:24:56,595
well, I'm a Bitcoiner.

339
00:24:56,655 --> 00:24:57,875
I want to accept Bitcoin.

340
00:25:00,095 --> 00:25:03,995
Well, I think for merchants

341
00:25:03,995 --> 00:25:05,035
that are accepting Bitcoin,

342
00:25:05,895 --> 00:25:07,635
it's a range.

343
00:25:08,375 --> 00:25:09,335
I know merchants,

344
00:25:09,435 --> 00:25:10,915
I've onboarded merchants that

345
00:25:10,915 --> 00:25:12,815
they just,

346
00:25:12,935 --> 00:25:14,395
they don't necessarily understand Bitcoin.

347
00:25:14,515 --> 00:25:15,395
They just have a feeling

348
00:25:15,395 --> 00:25:16,235
that it's the future

349
00:25:16,235 --> 00:25:18,735
and they have enough intuition

350
00:25:18,735 --> 00:25:20,755
to kind of separate

351
00:25:20,755 --> 00:25:26,775
the crypto from the Bitcoin and recognize like I should probably be getting on this.

352
00:25:26,895 --> 00:25:29,035
Like there's a lot of merchants that don't understand AI.

353
00:25:29,295 --> 00:25:34,955
They don't get it or how it works, but they can recognize like it's probably not going

354
00:25:34,955 --> 00:25:39,895
away and it's probably something that we should start keeping an eye on, right?

355
00:25:40,615 --> 00:25:45,815
And then, of course, you've got the hardcore Bitcoiners that they've wrote all the books

356
00:25:45,815 --> 00:25:47,135
and it's a no brainer.

357
00:25:47,135 --> 00:25:49,815
they want to accept the best form of money.

358
00:25:51,475 --> 00:25:55,615
And then it's sometimes just a tools issue, right?

359
00:25:55,675 --> 00:25:57,075
Like, do the tools exist?

360
00:25:57,895 --> 00:26:01,415
Are they able to accept Bitcoin

361
00:26:01,415 --> 00:26:05,435
and it also update their inventory

362
00:26:05,435 --> 00:26:08,355
and their employees?

363
00:26:08,475 --> 00:26:10,855
Are they able to do it and send out the invoice

364
00:26:10,855 --> 00:26:11,555
or whatever it is?

365
00:26:13,715 --> 00:26:15,035
I forgot what your question was.

366
00:26:15,035 --> 00:26:21,315
are you seeing a lot of adoption because they're trying to reduce fees or is it more of their

367
00:26:21,315 --> 00:26:28,315
hardcore big market well on the fiat side i think that probably eight times out of ten when a merchant

368
00:26:28,315 --> 00:26:34,675
comes to us they're they're looking to save money because we know the fees are excessive

369
00:26:34,675 --> 00:26:39,315
in the credit card world and there's a lot of margins and there's a lot of um

370
00:26:39,315 --> 00:26:47,255
is a lot of processors that are just overcharging you know because square for example stripe these

371
00:26:47,255 --> 00:26:51,875
guys are are blending all these different interchange rates into one and they don't

372
00:26:51,875 --> 00:26:57,315
usually customize it for each merchant and so i was talking to a dentist well dentists have

373
00:26:57,315 --> 00:27:05,355
exceedingly low risk um the number of chargebacks that dentist gets are are it's like it's like

374
00:27:05,355 --> 00:27:12,175
you know jordan it's like maybe one time 20 years ago someone didn't recognize a charge and they got

375
00:27:12,175 --> 00:27:20,135
a charge back right uh the fraud is super low and so the interchange rates are very low well square

376
00:27:20,135 --> 00:27:28,815
is going to pass on that blended risk to you and charge you way more than what the wholesale rate

377
00:27:28,815 --> 00:27:36,795
is and they're going to have fat margins. But they're not going to disclose all of that. They

378
00:27:36,795 --> 00:27:44,895
just say, it's easy. Here's our one easy, simple rate. And so that's why I think it's important to,

379
00:27:45,035 --> 00:27:51,855
if you run a business, particularly if you're starting to accept some more volume and you are

380
00:27:51,855 --> 00:28:05,570
accepting credit cards and in some cases ACH it makes a lot of sense to dig into it and kind of it like Bitcoin it like I don know what money I mean I just money is dollars right

381
00:28:05,570 --> 00:28:14,510
Money is like US dollars, I've got some in my wallet, and then someone says, well, what really is, is that really what money is?

382
00:28:14,590 --> 00:28:19,910
Like fiat, do you understand behind the scenes and central banking and debt-based money versus hard sound money?

383
00:28:20,010 --> 00:28:23,050
And they're like, I don't know, and then you get no conversation potentially.

384
00:28:23,050 --> 00:28:31,890
But similarly, with accepting money, there's a lot of opportunity to save money in a lot of cases.

385
00:28:32,370 --> 00:28:38,550
And that's increasingly important because, again, last year, the number one concern cited by merchants is inflation.

386
00:28:38,790 --> 00:28:46,470
The cost of everything is going up, including the ability to accept money for your goods and services.

387
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:53,850
yeah jason i want you to go back a little bit maybe and talk about how you got into bitcoin

388
00:28:53,850 --> 00:29:01,370
i think it's always helpful for you know folks in our audience to just get a good flavor of

389
00:29:01,370 --> 00:29:07,190
just where's this guy coming from the angle because and i've always seen you as so like

390
00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:12,850
if i just met you and we didn't meet at the park down in nashville like i would have never like

391
00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:17,110
really pinged you as a Bitcoin guy. Cause you're just like, you're just a normal guy. Right. Whereas

392
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:22,210
you meet a lot of Bitcoiners, like, like Wyatt, you know, and you're just like, I can, I can,

393
00:29:22,290 --> 00:29:27,850
I get it. I know why he's a Bitcoin or like, you know, but there is, yeah, I'm just joking a little

394
00:29:27,850 --> 00:29:31,810
bit, but you know what I'm saying? Like there's kind of like, there's normie world, right?

395
00:29:32,910 --> 00:29:37,530
Bitcoiners kind of speak in this, in these terms, there's normie world and there's Bitcoiners. And

396
00:29:37,530 --> 00:29:41,550
we all look like the crazy guy with all the charts up and like pointing all these different places.

397
00:29:41,550 --> 00:30:01,150
And then there's a lot of normal people that are like, I don't know, I just, I guess, I don't think about it, right? I haven't had enough time to really like dig into all the conspiracy stuff that you're talking about. So maybe give everyone a background of like, where are you approaching all of this stuff from? How did you get into Bitcoin? Who orange-pilled you? All those things.

398
00:30:01,890 --> 00:30:02,370
Yeah, yeah.

399
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:04,150
I mean, it's been a long winding journey,

400
00:30:04,150 --> 00:30:10,530
but I had this moment when I,

401
00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:15,370
2017, I bought Bitcoin and Ethereum

402
00:30:15,370 --> 00:30:18,710
and I was like, you know,

403
00:30:18,850 --> 00:30:20,230
I don't understand it,

404
00:30:20,270 --> 00:30:22,090
but I feel like it probably is going to go up.

405
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:24,750
And then we had the bear market

406
00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:25,570
and I forgot about it.

407
00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:29,590
And then we spent seven months during COVID

408
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:35,770
away from our house. And then at some point, we're like, maybe we should go get our stuff

409
00:30:35,770 --> 00:30:42,110
and get our cars and move out of our house. And so, the very first thing that I wanted to do going

410
00:30:42,110 --> 00:30:49,950
back was during the bull run is dig through all my drawers and find this USB stick. And I was like,

411
00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:55,590
I really want to see what's on it. And sure enough, I had six figures. And I was like,

412
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:58,310
Maybe I should figure out what this is, right?

413
00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:02,090
At the time, though, I understood Bitcoin as crypto.

414
00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:06,990
And I thought that there were lots of different digital assets out there.

415
00:31:07,410 --> 00:31:11,110
And I should probably learn about diversification.

416
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:14,670
And I should try and assess which one is going to be the winner.

417
00:31:15,530 --> 00:31:19,730
How do we know that one will win over the other?

418
00:31:20,770 --> 00:31:24,450
And so I started listening to a bunch of podcasts and trying to understand this stuff.

419
00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:27,530
And then I went to a Bitcoin conference and I went to a crypto conference.

420
00:31:30,690 --> 00:31:31,890
Night and day.

421
00:31:33,870 --> 00:31:36,970
Long term time horizons, short term time horizons.

422
00:31:37,970 --> 00:31:40,290
Partiers, healthy people.

423
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:45,210
Moral conviction versus get rich quick vibes.

424
00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:49,810
Like it just the whole the vibes that people are so different.

425
00:31:49,810 --> 00:32:07,090
And I was like, okay, like these people, like Bitcoiners are thinking in like 100 plus year timeframes. And like, like genuinely, they're like, not, they're not thinking in like, day trading terms and, and, and, you know, get rich quick terms.

426
00:32:07,090 --> 00:32:12,910
they're just like thinking such long term, but there was this deep sense of conviction

427
00:32:12,910 --> 00:32:19,330
and almost like a morality, almost like an understanding that there is an injustice.

428
00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:28,130
And I mean, I've spent years working on homelessness and working on broken parts of society.

429
00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:31,750
I mean, it's part of my passion for small business owners is they're kind of getting

430
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:32,410
left behind.

431
00:32:32,410 --> 00:32:35,830
Like the vast majority of businesses in existence are small businesses.

432
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:40,210
but the majority of profits are going to the top 1% largest corporations.

433
00:32:40,510 --> 00:32:43,670
And it's, you know, these small businesses are like the backbone of our economy.

434
00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:48,510
And then you've got all these intermediaries, extractive intermediaries,

435
00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:49,950
like taking their fees and everything.

436
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:57,590
And so that's when I realized, okay, I should probably dig into Bitcoin specifically.

437
00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:05,470
And when I began to read books and understand monetary policy and the history of money

438
00:33:05,470 --> 00:33:09,830
and central banking and Austrian economics.

439
00:33:10,350 --> 00:33:11,310
I mean, it took me a while.

440
00:33:11,410 --> 00:33:12,570
I'm not that smart of a guy.

441
00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:13,310
It took me a while.

442
00:33:13,650 --> 00:33:18,470
It was hard, but I was fascinated.

443
00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:26,450
And it got to the point where, I mean, I was making the largest decisions,

444
00:33:26,650 --> 00:33:29,470
financial decisions in my life and selling real estate to buy Bitcoin.

445
00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:34,190
And it started out as a ratio and then it just put the whole thing in Bitcoin.

446
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:35,310
I bought an espresso machine.

447
00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:36,910
I did buy an espresso machine.

448
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:38,670
It was a $400 espresso machine.

449
00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:40,450
But other than that, it was 100% Bitcoin.

450
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:40,790
Wow.

451
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:42,350
Short Bitcoin.

452
00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:43,690
Huh?

453
00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:47,370
You're short Bitcoin, it sounds like.

454
00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:48,330
Yeah.

455
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:50,790
I mean, you are, and you're sitting in a chair, it looks like.

456
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:52,250
Yeah, I am.

457
00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:52,670
I know.

458
00:33:52,890 --> 00:33:53,310
I know.

459
00:33:55,310 --> 00:33:56,310
One day I'm going to sell it.

460
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:57,730
For the professionals that don't know that meme,

461
00:33:57,730 --> 00:33:59,350
it's you should sell everything,

462
00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:01,710
including the chair you're sitting in to buy Bitcoin.

463
00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:02,710
Yeah.

464
00:34:02,930 --> 00:34:04,850
Not financial advice, but it's a funny meme.

465
00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:12,910
If you're a financial professional working with Bitcoin, you know the pain of messy CSVs,

466
00:34:13,070 --> 00:34:18,810
broken cost basis, and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. Bitment fixes that.

467
00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:24,430
Bitment is the Bitcoin-native accounting platform built for CPAs, bookkeepers, advisors,

468
00:34:24,870 --> 00:34:29,690
miners, and serious Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank statements,

469
00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:34,470
reliable cost basis tracking, full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid.

470
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:39,350
no crypto talk no workarounds just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth

471
00:34:39,350 --> 00:34:46,330
create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today hey well and since we're on the topic of

472
00:34:46,330 --> 00:34:50,550
memes one you brought up there jason that's one of my favorite in bitcoin is like this idea of like

473
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:56,190
retiring your bloodline yeah which i think is awesome but it really plays into this you know

474
00:34:56,190 --> 00:35:02,590
low time preference uh you know frame of mind that the bitcoiners do you have and i love you

475
00:35:02,590 --> 00:35:10,010
sharing the anecdotal experience yeah because i've been to one crypto conference actually just

476
00:35:10,010 --> 00:35:14,450
recently a couple months ago and i was just in town for a bitcoin conference and this was going

477
00:35:14,450 --> 00:35:20,490
on so i had a couple days and figure i stopped by and you know you just feel yucky you know walking

478
00:35:20,490 --> 00:35:26,530
in and walking out and you take a shower but it's so clear to me and i would say you know this is

479
00:35:26,530 --> 00:35:31,450
something you people are really actually interested in integrating bitcoin in their their lives and

480
00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:36,950
their breakfast is to understand like the culture and it's distinctly different you know obviously

481
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:42,330
in denver we have eat denver i just even hate their marketing you know it's just like their

482
00:35:42,330 --> 00:35:45,790
marketing how they like portray themselves is like so much different than what you would see

483
00:35:45,790 --> 00:35:51,590
in bitcoin land and um i think it is something important to actually tune into even though it

484
00:35:51,590 --> 00:35:57,470
may seem like you know noise a lot of time but important to understand that but jason when you

485
00:35:57,470 --> 00:36:02,130
going down this rabbit hole, obviously you have a payments company at this point and you're

486
00:36:02,130 --> 00:36:07,330
learning about Bitcoin and clearly making like some big decisions in your life on allocating

487
00:36:07,330 --> 00:36:13,310
to Bitcoin and getting Bitcoin exposure. What kind of pressure did you feel to integrate Bitcoin in

488
00:36:13,310 --> 00:36:18,770
your business or did you, you know, at all? Because when I went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole,

489
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:25,170
I had a different startup and we were doing, you know, EOR services for restaurants and stuff.

490
00:36:25,170 --> 00:36:29,450
I was like, oh, we should try to, you know, integrate Bitcoin into your payroll and stuff.

491
00:36:29,850 --> 00:36:34,590
And I felt obligated to try to do so as a loyal Bitcoiner.

492
00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:37,490
But I copped out and was like, you know, I had partners in that.

493
00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:38,570
They'll never go for it.

494
00:36:38,610 --> 00:36:39,050
Yada, yada.

495
00:36:39,170 --> 00:36:43,050
So when I started, you know, Basilic, that was really, you know, I wanted to do something

496
00:36:43,050 --> 00:36:44,590
specifically in Bitcoin.

497
00:36:44,730 --> 00:36:45,810
So did you have some pressures?

498
00:36:45,890 --> 00:36:48,190
Did you try to figure out how to like integrate it?

499
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:51,750
Did you think it was just better to keep, you know, players, start Bitcoin, you know,

500
00:36:51,770 --> 00:36:52,450
payment advisors?

501
00:36:52,450 --> 00:36:54,430
How were you kind of, you know, assessing that landscape?

502
00:36:55,170 --> 00:37:04,810
Yeah, I mean, it's really easy to save in Bitcoin and run your business on a Bitcoin standard, whether you accept Bitcoin or fiat or whatever it is, you just convert it all into Bitcoin and then boom.

503
00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:18,430
But so I started doing that. But the the real conviction, like I just felt I felt conviction around.

504
00:37:18,430 --> 00:37:28,130
getting out of my comfort zone and helping other businesses. It's incredibly easy to

505
00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:33,490
save in Bitcoin. Once you have a conviction, it's not hard. I slept better at night.

506
00:37:33,490 --> 00:37:37,950
I literally slept better at night by holding Bitcoin than dollars.

507
00:37:39,850 --> 00:37:46,350
What made me not sleep better at night is not doing something about onboarding the millions

508
00:37:46,350 --> 00:37:54,190
of merchants that are still currently completely clueless about how money works and

509
00:37:54,190 --> 00:38:07,270
the brokenness of our current financial situation and the importance of if you want to have an

510
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:16,370
enduring durable company the importance of understanding hard money and saving some

511
00:38:16,370 --> 00:38:24,610
in that form of money uh and and ideally uh just in part because i think it's

512
00:38:26,050 --> 00:38:32,030
super i mean people way smarter than me um have really in my opinion very strong arguments uh like

513
00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:37,010
jeff booth and jack dorsey and many others that you know bitcoin has failed if we never get to

514
00:38:37,010 --> 00:38:42,450
medium of exchange, right? And so I'm like, well, I can at least play my part in that. I don't know

515
00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:46,870
what that fully looks like. So I built a website and started a podcast and I started trying to

516
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:52,110
onboard as many merchants as I possibly could. And now I'm fortunate enough to be able to help

517
00:38:52,110 --> 00:38:57,630
a bunch of Bitcoin companies as well, accepting fiat. Many of those already accept Bitcoin.

518
00:38:57,970 --> 00:39:03,410
I'm sorry. Yeah. Many Bitcoin companies already accept Bitcoin, but not all of them have the best

519
00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:06,890
fiat payments set up because many of them are still using Stripe and Square and the traditional

520
00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:11,710
players that pumping out marketing dollars and have created a lot of brand recognition,

521
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:16,050
but don't necessarily have a consultative approach. There's no relationship. You can't

522
00:39:16,050 --> 00:39:21,750
call Square and call Jack and have him give his best insights on your small business.

523
00:39:22,590 --> 00:39:29,230
And so that's what I'm passionate about right now is just trying to help both Bitcoiners as well as

524
00:39:29,230 --> 00:39:35,130
everyday mom and pop businesses be able to accept all forms of money, really, right? Because Bitcoin

525
00:39:35,130 --> 00:39:40,210
is money. So all forms of money, whatever form of money your customers want to pay in

526
00:39:40,210 --> 00:39:46,010
and whatever form you want to accept. Yeah. I wanted to bring up what you've

527
00:39:46,010 --> 00:39:51,770
seen out there. I know there's a lot of hubbub on, okay, merchants are turning on Bitcoin

528
00:39:51,770 --> 00:39:58,630
payments, maybe via Square or ZapRite. But you still hear these stories of like,

529
00:39:59,050 --> 00:40:04,750
yeah, no one pays in Bitcoin. I give them the option to pay in Bitcoin and they don't.

530
00:40:04,750 --> 00:40:25,170
And so I think there's a couple paths we could go down, maybe speak to if we don't ever do this medium of exchange thing, then it fails. It doesn't live up to Satoshi's original vision. We could go down that path. We could go down a path of like spend to replace. You could call some things out there.

531
00:40:25,170 --> 00:40:31,990
and then the last thing I think it is nice for maybe to go a little bit deeper on the breeze

532
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:41,510
and castle examples just to it's just giving all these options of ways to get exposure but

533
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:46,270
I don't know big you know bitcoiners it's just such a weird thing where they're like well I don't

534
00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:50,290
want to spend my bitcoin because it's going to be worth more and I guess probably the biggest

535
00:40:50,290 --> 00:40:54,630
the one that makes the most sense to me the argument countering that is just the spend and

536
00:40:54,630 --> 00:41:00,030
replace kind of method although i wish there was a better tool that i could spend bitcoin and

537
00:41:00,030 --> 00:41:06,750
immediately you know buys that right back basically and you know resets cost basis does a lot of fun

538
00:41:06,750 --> 00:41:15,350
things for me yeah um so i don't know yeah i i think it's ridiculous to to not i think it's

539
00:41:15,350 --> 00:41:21,310
ridiculous to not buy goods and services with bitcoin if you understand bitcoin like if if you

540
00:41:21,310 --> 00:41:35,750
If you've read a book or two and identify as a Bitcoiner in any way, shape or form, I think it's a ridiculous argument to not spend Bitcoin because you think it's going to go up because of the spend and replay.

541
00:41:36,190 --> 00:41:43,210
Okay, open up Strike and buy your Bitcoin and then spend your Bitcoin and then rebuy it or DCA or whatever.

542
00:41:43,370 --> 00:41:45,790
Like you can be buying Bitcoin each and every day while you sleep.

543
00:41:46,010 --> 00:41:48,810
It just doesn't matter, right?

544
00:41:48,810 --> 00:42:04,105
And so if you understand the brokenness of our current money situation then I think that you should do something about it

545
00:42:05,185 --> 00:42:11,945
And part of that is choosing to spend the best form of money there is.

546
00:42:12,545 --> 00:42:19,465
Because merchants are never going to accept Bitcoin without you actually spending it, right?

547
00:42:19,465 --> 00:42:26,665
it's a two-way street and um it's a chicken and the egg problem and i think the where we start as

548
00:42:26,665 --> 00:42:32,145
merchants like we have to build the roads before the cars can run you know uh parker lewis talks

549
00:42:32,145 --> 00:42:37,605
about this uh he spoke on that uh at bit block boom last year the transition from horse and buggy

550
00:42:37,605 --> 00:42:43,105
to cars well we had to build roads as a prerequisite you can't just go straight from

551
00:42:43,105 --> 00:42:50,765
horses to cars with no roads. And I think merchants are where we have to start, but it's super

552
00:42:50,765 --> 00:42:54,785
important that merchants, because they're just going to turn it off. They're just going to

553
00:42:55,705 --> 00:43:04,245
stop paying their monthly ZapRite fee or tell their employees like, ah, you don't even have to

554
00:43:04,245 --> 00:43:09,425
learn this system. You don't even need to learn where to swipe down on the square terminal to

555
00:43:09,425 --> 00:43:13,085
click the Bitcoin button for it to generate the QR code for the customer to pay because no one

556
00:43:13,085 --> 00:43:19,245
ever pays in Bitcoin. Right. And then we're back in the same problem of like Bitcoin, not really,

557
00:43:19,405 --> 00:43:27,325
you know, number go up. Sure. But, but the, the real like revolutionary aspects, we need more

558
00:43:27,325 --> 00:43:34,185
than just saving a Bitcoin, I think. Yeah. I mean, even something I've thought about,

559
00:43:34,185 --> 00:43:40,745
and I wish I needed, I need to do a better job at this, um, is just really any time you're spending

560
00:43:40,745 --> 00:43:46,205
money and i know it sounds so silly and you actually feel silly asking the question but

561
00:43:46,205 --> 00:43:52,465
asking the merchant do you accept bitcoin you're like out at a restaurant right yeah and yeah you

562
00:43:52,465 --> 00:43:57,945
run the risk of like oh this person's crazy them thinking oh this is a crazy person but i think if

563
00:43:57,945 --> 00:44:04,085
you got enough bitcoiners to start asking that question and including it in their regular cadence

564
00:44:04,085 --> 00:44:05,585
before they swipe their Amex,

565
00:44:06,305 --> 00:44:09,165
like, well, at least more people are like,

566
00:44:10,005 --> 00:44:12,045
why are these people asking about this?

567
00:44:12,725 --> 00:44:14,065
And if it's a Square, you know,

568
00:44:14,085 --> 00:44:14,885
if it's a Square company,

569
00:44:15,045 --> 00:44:16,865
then our Square POS company,

570
00:44:16,945 --> 00:44:18,145
it's like, okay, that's already set up.

571
00:44:18,185 --> 00:44:20,805
You can get them onboarded today.

572
00:44:21,165 --> 00:44:22,045
So I don't know.

573
00:44:22,065 --> 00:44:22,965
What are your thoughts on that?

574
00:44:23,525 --> 00:44:24,585
I mean, honestly,

575
00:44:25,745 --> 00:44:28,385
here I am talking about how important it is,

576
00:44:28,445 --> 00:44:30,705
but I'm kind of bad about it

577
00:44:30,705 --> 00:44:31,985
when in a retail environment.

578
00:44:31,985 --> 00:44:37,725
I am incredibly disciplined when it's obvious for me.

579
00:44:38,185 --> 00:44:48,885
So when I'm paying a ZapRite invoice, when I am buying something online, whatever it is, and I have the option to pay in Bitcoin, I will always scan a QR code.

580
00:44:49,005 --> 00:44:50,125
I will always pay in Bitcoin.

581
00:44:50,625 --> 00:44:57,145
But in a retail environment, I have so much muscle memory of just like, because it's hard for me to like stop and think, is this a square?

582
00:44:57,365 --> 00:44:59,065
Like what terminal are they using?

583
00:44:59,065 --> 00:45:00,545
Do they accept Bitcoin?

584
00:45:00,805 --> 00:45:01,865
Like have they enabled it?

585
00:45:01,865 --> 00:45:08,025
Have they talked to the owner about what it is and how it is like freedom money and it's revolutionary and it's going to help their business?

586
00:45:08,305 --> 00:45:12,965
And it's just such a, you know, challenge in retail.

587
00:45:13,805 --> 00:45:17,845
And a lot of merchants, including Square merchants, don't yet accept it.

588
00:45:17,925 --> 00:45:25,125
And so I think probably the best thing you could do if you're in a retail environment is just stop and see if they're using Square, because that's the most obvious thing.

589
00:45:25,125 --> 00:45:31,525
There's four million merchants that are using Square and a percentage of those, 100% of those can accept Bitcoin.

590
00:45:31,525 --> 00:45:36,785
Right. A hundred percent of them have the ability to in the in the from a technology standpoint in the terminal.

591
00:45:37,105 --> 00:45:39,565
It's just a matter of whether they turn it on or not.

592
00:45:40,145 --> 00:45:46,465
And and merchants listen like I mean, they they they will they will change their business habits because of their customer.

593
00:45:46,665 --> 00:45:48,525
You are the ones that are keeping them alive.

594
00:45:48,665 --> 00:45:50,405
You are the ones that are keeping them in business.

595
00:45:51,065 --> 00:45:52,905
And so I think it matters for sure.

596
00:45:54,365 --> 00:45:59,125
You know, Bitcoin Park is a lot of folks that still pay in fiat.

597
00:45:59,125 --> 00:46:04,565
right and and i'm sure there's all kinds of other uh shame shame right out of the space

598
00:46:06,405 --> 00:46:10,005
yeah because yeah the space it's only bitcoin right only bitcoin man we're

599
00:46:10,005 --> 00:46:15,845
but yeah i like that that's cool i mean bitcoin it's yeah there's pros and cons but

600
00:46:15,845 --> 00:46:17,525
you guys doing something different down south or

601
00:46:22,085 --> 00:46:26,245
this episode is brought to you by satoshi paccioli a full service accounting and tax

602
00:46:26,245 --> 00:46:53,245
It does bring up the subscription conversation.

603
00:46:53,245 --> 00:46:55,005
We could go there for a little bit.

604
00:46:55,005 --> 00:46:59,585
Like that is probably one of the bigger gaps right now in the Bitcoin space for payments, right?

605
00:47:00,345 --> 00:47:02,965
Yeah, I think they're working on it with Bolt 12.

606
00:47:04,265 --> 00:47:06,245
This is where the builders come in.

607
00:47:06,385 --> 00:47:10,785
Like I'm not a developer, but this is where the, you know, it is coming.

608
00:47:11,225 --> 00:47:16,385
But with Lightning specifically, but we're not there yet.

609
00:47:16,385 --> 00:47:21,525
And so that, you know, I flipped the merchant, one of my merchants, I flipped her over ZapRite.

610
00:47:21,785 --> 00:47:24,405
And then we integrated in for the fiat side.

611
00:47:25,005 --> 00:47:29,005
Um, and then we ended up having to bail because of the subscription.

612
00:47:29,145 --> 00:47:35,685
I didn't, I didn't do my due diligence and that was my fault, but, um, I just had completely

613
00:47:35,685 --> 00:47:40,025
spaced on the fact that she does so many recurring transactions, not all of them, but many of

614
00:47:40,025 --> 00:47:41,065
her transactions are recurring.

615
00:47:41,605 --> 00:47:44,345
Well, think about how much attrition she's going to have.

616
00:47:44,445 --> 00:47:50,625
If now, instead of saying, we will take your credit card and just automate your life for

617
00:47:50,625 --> 00:47:50,805
you.

618
00:47:50,805 --> 00:47:54,945
And instead we're going to send you an invoice and require you out of the thousands of emails

619
00:47:54,945 --> 00:47:57,365
that you get every day or every week

620
00:47:57,365 --> 00:47:58,945
to sort through them,

621
00:47:59,145 --> 00:48:00,365
find the one from ZapRite,

622
00:48:00,645 --> 00:48:03,605
make sure you pay in your preferred payment method.

623
00:48:03,845 --> 00:48:04,925
And we're doing all of this

624
00:48:04,925 --> 00:48:06,145
just so we can accept Bitcoin.

625
00:48:06,445 --> 00:48:09,825
You're better off just buying Bitcoin on the backend

626
00:48:09,825 --> 00:48:12,345
or using an automated treasury platform or something

627
00:48:12,345 --> 00:48:15,125
because we're just too early, frankly,

628
00:48:16,625 --> 00:48:20,245
for transactions that are subscription recurring.

629
00:48:21,445 --> 00:48:22,545
It's a good point.

630
00:48:22,665 --> 00:48:24,305
We've actually talked to ZapRite at the space

631
00:48:24,305 --> 00:48:27,425
because I think we're actually one of the larger users on volume

632
00:48:27,425 --> 00:48:31,205
just because we're spending all these invoices every month

633
00:48:31,205 --> 00:48:33,625
and we've talked to them about subscription features and stuff.

634
00:48:34,185 --> 00:48:40,765
But Jason, I haven't actually heard this horse and buggy to car analogy before.

635
00:48:41,625 --> 00:48:44,865
And I'm curious, if you're putting on your entrepreneur, your advisor,

636
00:48:45,265 --> 00:48:49,605
your investor hat, and you're asking or advising an entrepreneur,

637
00:48:49,825 --> 00:48:51,825
it's a little bit of this chicken and egg problem, right?

638
00:48:51,845 --> 00:48:54,025
Or it's like, well, in order to get merchants to accept Bitcoin,

639
00:48:54,025 --> 00:48:58,165
we have to have the tools so you go out and build the tools and you know they will come

640
00:48:58,165 --> 00:49:03,685
but in the roads example you know those are subsidized by you know the the federal government

641
00:49:03,685 --> 00:49:07,665
so that you know you can add like this third party that's willing to come in here and like

642
00:49:07,665 --> 00:49:14,285
front the cost where you know free market capital you know bitcoin land what's like the risk or

643
00:49:14,285 --> 00:49:19,785
reward or how are you identifying like certain opportunities within the you know payment tool

644
00:49:19,785 --> 00:49:26,065
space, you know, at large to, you know, identify those total addressable markets and like have

645
00:49:26,065 --> 00:49:32,365
confidence, like, well, the merchant will overcome. I think you need, you need something way more than

646
00:49:32,365 --> 00:49:37,645
just a tool that accepts Bitcoin. So ZapRite is cool because it allows the customer that they were

647
00:49:37,645 --> 00:49:42,405
really innovative in allowing the customer to choose their preferred payment method, right?

648
00:49:42,545 --> 00:49:47,165
And so a lot of the friction, you know, I've onboarded merchants to Bitcoin payments. It's

649
00:49:47,165 --> 00:49:53,645
It's like, well, you have to use this different tool to send an invoice out and you have to ask the customer if they want to pay in Bitcoin.

650
00:49:54,045 --> 00:49:57,725
And then you create the invoice in this other system and then back and forth.

651
00:49:58,005 --> 00:49:58,865
It's just too much friction.

652
00:49:59,325 --> 00:50:02,405
It's just not practical for a fast-paced business environment.

653
00:50:03,265 --> 00:50:07,065
And so if you can send all of your invoices out without asking, it doesn't matter.

654
00:50:07,165 --> 00:50:08,025
Just pay however you want to pay.

655
00:50:08,185 --> 00:50:08,925
You want to pay in credit card?

656
00:50:09,005 --> 00:50:09,185
Great.

657
00:50:09,385 --> 00:50:11,805
You want to pay in ACH or Bitcoin, whatever it is.

658
00:50:12,765 --> 00:50:15,505
That's a really helpful tool.

659
00:50:15,505 --> 00:50:21,625
Um, and then, uh, and then flash who we're working with right now, um, similar to castle

660
00:50:21,625 --> 00:50:23,865
is an automated treasury platform, right?

661
00:50:23,885 --> 00:50:25,445
And, and that's really powerful.

662
00:50:25,445 --> 00:50:29,725
And you need these, these kinds of innovations for it to be practical for a business.

663
00:50:29,725 --> 00:50:34,125
I think, uh, you know, you send an invoice out, they can pay in lightning, they can pay

664
00:50:34,125 --> 00:50:38,785
in Bitcoin, um, or they can pay in fiat and it doesn't matter.

665
00:50:38,945 --> 00:50:42,305
It's, we're automatically a portion of that transaction or maybe a hundred percent of that

666
00:50:42,305 --> 00:50:44,225
transaction is going to be going into Bitcoin.

667
00:50:44,785 --> 00:50:45,885
That's a powerful tool.

668
00:50:46,065 --> 00:50:48,585
And then they've got the calculators and they build out the models.

669
00:50:48,585 --> 00:51:02,405
And you can see based on past performance, you know, if you convert 50% or 10%, 1% of your transaction into Bitcoin, you know, what that's going to map out on based on certain, you know, time horizons.

670
00:51:02,865 --> 00:51:04,365
This is a really powerful tool.

671
00:51:05,125 --> 00:51:13,805
And yeah, I think you need a lot more than something just these ideas of like just accept Bitcoin.

672
00:51:14,225 --> 00:51:15,185
It's just not practical.

673
00:51:15,605 --> 00:51:16,765
You need something else.

674
00:51:16,785 --> 00:51:20,125
You need some kind of additional technological breakthrough, I think.

675
00:51:21,185 --> 00:51:21,625
Yum.

676
00:51:22,405 --> 00:51:22,905
All right.

677
00:51:22,925 --> 00:51:24,105
Well, we're getting close to time.

678
00:51:24,925 --> 00:51:27,845
Jason, tell people where they can find you.

679
00:51:28,105 --> 00:51:30,545
Are you still doing the podcast, the Bitcoin Payments podcast?

680
00:51:31,585 --> 00:51:31,865
Yeah.

681
00:51:32,025 --> 00:51:32,865
Medium of Exchange.

682
00:51:33,205 --> 00:51:37,065
Check us out on YouTube, Spotify, whatever your preferred fountain.

683
00:51:37,065 --> 00:51:37,405
Yeah.

684
00:51:37,445 --> 00:51:39,645
What was your best performing episode?

685
00:51:39,865 --> 00:51:41,205
I'm just curious last year.

686
00:51:41,625 --> 00:51:42,925
I was going to tee it up.

687
00:51:43,545 --> 00:51:43,945
Yeah.

688
00:51:44,225 --> 00:51:47,925
I got this notice from Spotify.

689
00:51:48,225 --> 00:51:49,905
It had confetti on it, and it said,

690
00:51:49,985 --> 00:51:54,485
your best performing episode, the number one most listened to episode,

691
00:51:54,605 --> 00:51:56,685
was this gentleman right here, Jordan Guess.

692
00:51:56,945 --> 00:51:58,905
So thank you for joining me on my pod.

693
00:52:00,085 --> 00:52:02,565
But yeah, a lot of fun conversations on Medium of Exchange.

694
00:52:02,565 --> 00:52:05,265
I just interviewed yesterday this guy David from Musket.

695
00:52:05,465 --> 00:52:08,385
He's based out of London, and he's got this credit card terminal

696
00:52:08,385 --> 00:52:11,825
that is both credit card and Lightning, all in one.

697
00:52:12,665 --> 00:52:14,165
Really cool little device there.

698
00:52:14,225 --> 00:52:19,805
and uh and then i've got the the payments company polaris payments i'm kind of fusing everything

699
00:52:19,805 --> 00:52:23,645
under that brand i'm going to add a bitcoin tab to that so just be everything is just one simple

700
00:52:23,645 --> 00:52:28,045
like we accept money we help you accept money uh and that's called polaris payments you can go to

701
00:52:28,045 --> 00:52:33,285
the website polaris payments.com you can click on the chat widget and i'll or you can message us

702
00:52:33,285 --> 00:52:36,725
whatever it is my email is jason at polaris payments.com if you just want to message me

703
00:52:36,725 --> 00:52:43,065
directly no that's amazing um yeah i'm sorry i i meant to ask this earlier but i forgot but yes

704
00:52:43,065 --> 00:52:44,825
I know this has been a lot of hubbub on Twitter.

705
00:52:45,025 --> 00:52:48,445
Just like, I don't know if you've gone deep down this or just have any surface level thoughts.

706
00:52:48,525 --> 00:52:51,385
But what do you what do you think about AI agents paying in Bitcoin?

707
00:52:52,425 --> 00:52:55,425
Yeah, you know, it's so funny is yesterday on our podcast.

708
00:52:55,425 --> 00:52:59,625
That's literally what we ended like the whole last 10 minutes was that topic.

709
00:53:00,545 --> 00:53:09,365
So here's what we kind of like concluded yesterday is, well, my question to David was, OK, AI agents cannot go through KYC.

710
00:53:09,365 --> 00:53:17,585
they like it doesn't make any sense for them to use fiat dollars um but are they going to choose

711
00:53:17,585 --> 00:53:23,225
stable coins or lightning right like which one would they choose because they need programmable

712
00:53:23,225 --> 00:53:28,025
money but do they understand like what's their time horizon that that's kind of like a fundamental

713
00:53:28,025 --> 00:53:34,365
question um and do they believe in you know to have they studied austrian economics or

714
00:53:34,365 --> 00:53:40,265
keynesian economics they're there there's different models in in your economic thought um and do you

715
00:53:40,265 --> 00:53:45,685
understand like you know debt debt-based money versus hard sound money it's i think the time

716
00:53:45,685 --> 00:53:49,445
horizon is an interesting question we should ask an ai what's your what's your time horizon

717
00:53:49,445 --> 00:53:58,985
yeah you know we've got roughly 80 years ish uh maybe 160 if you if you're rod um but uh you know

718
00:53:58,985 --> 00:54:07,165
we have a specific amount of time on earth right um and the ai agents i don't know i don't know

719
00:54:07,165 --> 00:54:13,785
what their time horizon is yeah uh i gotta jump for this next call but i did want to just share

720
00:54:13,785 --> 00:54:19,905
the screen real quick because cali put this in our ai bitcoin chat uh or someone dropped it in

721
00:54:19,905 --> 00:54:26,965
but it was cali on on twitter just saying that us dc on base is uh more common for these payments

722
00:54:26,965 --> 00:54:33,425
uh so essentially it was a call out like the scam coins are marching on and even fiat is evolving

723
00:54:33,425 --> 00:54:39,905
and it was called action of like make sure you're out there doing your part and i think that that's

724
00:54:39,905 --> 00:54:45,725
where i wanted to kind of leave it today is jason you're out there you're doing your part we're

725
00:54:45,725 --> 00:54:51,625
trying to do our part i think it's a it's just um you know everyone something to consider right like

726
00:54:51,625 --> 00:54:57,445
how can I contribute with whatever it looks like within my career, my life.

727
00:54:57,985 --> 00:54:59,565
So that's it.

728
00:55:00,365 --> 00:55:01,885
Thank you so much for coming on, Jason.

729
00:55:02,265 --> 00:55:03,165
Thank you guys for having me.

730
00:55:03,265 --> 00:55:03,785
This is fun.

731
00:55:04,045 --> 00:55:04,425
Yeah, it's fun.

732
00:55:04,425 --> 00:55:04,645
Yeah.

733
00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:05,565
Thanks, Jason.

734
00:55:06,205 --> 00:55:06,425
Okay.

735
00:55:06,625 --> 00:55:06,965
See you guys.

736
00:55:07,045 --> 00:55:07,565
Talk to y'all soon.

737
00:55:13,465 --> 00:55:14,845
We appreciate you joining us.

738
00:55:15,325 --> 00:55:18,405
If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin and financial services,

739
00:55:18,725 --> 00:55:21,605
hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for our newsletter.

740
00:55:21,625 --> 00:55:23,825
and share this with someone in your network

741
00:55:23,825 --> 00:55:26,125
who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice.

742
00:55:26,565 --> 00:55:27,845
The more professionals we reach,

743
00:55:27,945 --> 00:55:29,445
the stronger this ecosystem becomes

744
00:55:29,445 --> 00:55:31,225
and our clients are better served.

745
00:55:31,665 --> 00:55:33,025
Stay sharp, stay sovereign,

746
00:55:33,505 --> 00:55:34,365
keep leading from the front.

747
00:55:51,625 --> 00:55:52,125
you