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If you genuinely care about your clients and you care about the things that are important to them,

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you'll be highly incentivized to help them manage their money really well,

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because you have full buy-in to those things that they value.

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And that's how we view what we do is like, my goodness.

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Yeah.

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Like don't delay getting married.

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Don't delay.

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Like, you know, you have family, like go on, go do things, make memories.

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Don't just hoard as much Bitcoin as you can.

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That way, one day you have X amount, like use it.

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Your money is a tool and a resource to help you do what's important to you in life.

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If money is a means of communicating what you value, you should probably communicate that.

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If you're telling your wife that you value spending time with her, you should have that reflected in the way that you use your money in your calendar.

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If you if you tell your kids they're important to you, like you should probably maybe work a little bit less or find a means of like spending time with them versus just taking extra jobs and gigs and stuff.

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So you buy a little bit more Bitcoin like your money communicates what you value.

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So make sure it's aligned.

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Bitcoin is a currency on the Internet.

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If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go.

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It's going to outperform everything.

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Bitcoin could eventually be worthless.

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Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.

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Bitcoin getting a new high.

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It really has reached escape velocity.

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There is no second best.

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Who cares about Bitcoin?

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It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.

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Antisocial.

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Bitcoin is the real deal.

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Stupid.

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Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

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Immoral.

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It's going up forever, Laura.

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Fix the money.

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Fix the world.

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Thank you.

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what's up everyone welcome back to bitcoin for financial services medium the podcast where sound

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money meets professional services we explore how to build the financial services industries within

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the principles ethos and values of bitcoin today we're joined by jim criter founder of intentional

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Living FP. Let's get started. Welcome back, everybody. We are joined by Jim Kreider,

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friend of the pod, friend of Bitcoin for Financial Services. Jim is the founder of

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Intentional Living FP. Welcome to the show, Jim. Hey, thanks, Wyatt. Appreciate you having me.

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Of course, man. We were stoked to have you. Fun fact, you were one of the first folks I talked to

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when I was thinking about getting Basilic started and off the ground.

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So I've looked to the likes of you and Morgan and a handful of the other folks

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on the Bitcoin Financial Advisor Network, which I'm excited to get into.

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And I really appreciate you being so gracious with your time

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and giving me some good advice.

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So why don't you kind of give the audience a background on yourself,

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what you do, what your firm does?

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Yeah. So I'm based in Texas.

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We have clients across the U.S.

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I mean, on the personal side of things, I married 13, 14 years, dad of four young kids.

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As you'd mentioned, I own our financial planning firm, Intentional Living.

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Right now, we're a team of five.

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We serve around 150 clients in 20 to 30 states, about half of those being in Texas, other scattered

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around.

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We do essentially all things money.

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And what I like to tell the people we're talking with about who we're looking to work

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with us is our, our job foundationally is to help you articulate what's important to you in life,

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and then align and use your resources in the most efficient and effective way for that.

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That's what we do all the way from just like budgeting and savings rates and spending rates

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to tax planning and estate planning. And we do manage investments and ultimately again,

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aligning your, aligning your values and your resources for that.

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yeah that's awesome and one where i think i i want to start with this jim is i think you have a very

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unique perspective about bringing bitcoin up with clients once you take us through how you approach

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that yes we'll we sort of have two types of clients uh from the bitcoin perspective so

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we do routinely we'll get a wave of new clients who maybe heard me on a bitcoin podcast or met me

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at a Bitcoin conference. And they're coming to us specifically for the stated reason of,

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I've never worked with a financial planner before because I haven't found one who understands

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Bitcoin or my existing financial planner ignores Bitcoin or constantly tells me to sell it.

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And I'm tired of that being brushed off. So I want to go ahead and make the move over to someone

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who can understand and integrate this with our financial plan. So for those types of clients,

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it's a stated need of, I like Bitcoin, I understand it. I want to be integrated to our plan.

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That's one group. Then we have the second group who are normal people who are looking for help

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with retirement planning or just general financial planning. And they find us online or some different

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means and they're not, you know, Bitcoin's not on the radar at all. And for most of those people,

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I think Bitcoin would actually scare them off. So we don't, I don't talk about Bitcoin on our

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website or lead with that in introductory meetings with our clients. Really, we tend to not bring

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Bitcoin up until they are already a client of ours. And we've already demonstrated competency

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in different financial planning fields to show that we're not morons who are just chasing a hype

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type thing. But we understand all these fields of financial planning. And then once we've

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once we've demonstrated that we'll generally we'll bring up bitcoin within the investment

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type conversation of actually enacting their financial plan and that's what that looks like

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specifically um again at that point we've we've worked with them for at least a few weeks if not

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a few months at that once we get to this conversation and we're hey let's let's go

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ahead and talk through investments today and look at your portfolio how it's currently constructed

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versus any changes we would want to make.

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And before we go there,

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you should know something about me

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and largely how we view money as a firm.

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And I tell them like, you know,

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I and our clients tend to own Bitcoin.

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And I just ask like what their experience

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around Bitcoin is.

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And that leads into this conversation of,

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you know, deep dialogue on money,

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history of money, stores of value,

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history of internet-based money,

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really trying to establish for them that Bitcoin itself is not some newfangled technology that is a

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get-rich-quick scheme invented by a millennial or Gen Z kid down in their basement to go buy a

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Lamborghini. But this is built upon the principles of what sound money is and

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really challenging the perception of what money is. I think that's probably one of the more

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interesting things on this. And that applies to clients, but even a lot of people who work in

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finance of challenging, what is money? And most people don't step back to ask that question.

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So that's, that's, that is where we begin with those clients. Again, two sets of clients,

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clients who will come to us because of Bitcoin, people come to us, not even on the radar.

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And for those types, big conversation, what is money? What's the history of it?

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Unpacking that, then moving into the history of cryptography and internet-based monies,

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showing the decades of hard work and ingenuity in this field that led to Satoshi's cracking of

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digital scarcity and a decentralized ledger system and the genius behind that.

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And then finally building on, once we've walked through all of these, then we go into,

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well, at that point, there's usually pretty high buy-in of Bitcoin probably makes sense.

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I should probably own some. So the next logical question is,

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how much should I own in relation to the rest of my investments? And if I'm going to own some,

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how do I buy it? And then once I bought it, how do I make sure it's securely held? And what does

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that even mean? So that was a long explanation. We can dive into any of those pieces you would

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like in more detail. Yeah, no, that's great, Jim. I guess a couple of questions come to mind for me

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is, is there a bucket you're normally pulling from?

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when you are going to buy?

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Is it generally you're pulling out of the equity side, the bonds?

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I know it's like it's client by client,

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but I'm just curious if you generally see any trends there

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with what you're pulling from in order to put into Bitcoin.

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Let's start with that one because I actually forgot the other question I had.

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Now, let's see if it comes back to me.

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Yeah, obviously it depends on the client by client base

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and not just the client, but the intended use base.

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Like, you know, a retiree is going to be invested in one way

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versus a 25-year-old in a different way.

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And that's not because they're old versus young.

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It's because retirees probably going to use that money soon

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versus a 25-year-old if it's a retirement account,

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it's going to use in several decades.

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Now, if a 25-year-old is going to use that account

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to buy a house in five years,

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they're probably going to be invested in the same way

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or similarly to a retiree.

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So the intended use obviously drives,

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largely drives the asset allocation strategy.

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Now, to your question,

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what part of that asset allocation strategy does Bitcoin hold, I'll start big picture.

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Generally speaking, I would put that to the equity bucket. Now, with that said,

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I could argue personally, and then through my experience, is once you understand Bitcoin,

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and I would venture to say, I was to make the statement, you'll agree. Once you understand

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Bitcoin, you probably have a different view on bond holdings than the general financial service

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spectrum. So we do not as a firm at this, at this, at this moment, as a firm, we generally don't hold

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much of any mid or long term, like duration bonds. So we don't have this standard 6040 portfolio.

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So we could, I guess we could argue then it's like, well, Jim, if you're reducing your bond

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holdings in totality, cash and bonds, and if you're not really holding much of any long term

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or midterm bonds is bitcoin taking the place of bonds um or is that a uh is that collateral damage

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in understanding bitcoin then you don't really trust the bond system so you've you've naturally

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reduced that maybe increased your cash but then the bitcoin itself is i would like to think of it

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as it's taking the place of some stocks but we or like the equity portfolio but in understanding

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global debt, macroeconomics, and money systems, we have also chosen to reduce our bond allocation,

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primarily mid and long duration bonds. That's a really long way of sort of answering your question.

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No, I mean, honestly, it's funny because you kind of sorted that out exactly how I was hoping you

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would. And it's this distinction of like, do you see Bitcoin in the equity lens or do you see it

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this bond in this bond market lens. Um, so no, I think that's very interesting. And, um, I guess

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the only other, I view it in the equity lens, um, with the volatility, the upside potential,

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the downside movements, all these things, I think it fits way more into the equity lens.

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Um, but it, we could, again, we could argue that it comes to the detriment in a sense to the,

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to the bonds, but I don't think it's because like, Hey, we're going to reduce your bond

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allocation so we can buy more Bitcoin. It's more of like, hey, we have $37 trillion of debt,

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and the fault lines are starting to show with our global debt system. Maybe we shouldn't trust that

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as much as we once thought we could. So we're going to opt to not buy so much long duration bonds.

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And that happens sort of at the same time as adopting Bitcoin. So it could be perceived that

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Bitcoin is taking the place of that bond holding, but it's not. It just happens to come at the same

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time. Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management

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firm built to help our clients find balance between money and meaning. We integrate sound

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money strategies across four distinct personalized services. Financial planning, individual wealth

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management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. Your prosperity,

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your purpose, intentionally guided at Basilic Financial. Visit our website at basilic.io

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to schedule free consultation.

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Yeah, I mean, and I guess it probably gets you get into the conversation about about inflation, if I had to guess in that kind of history of money.

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But I was curious if you've had any experiences that you could point to where you go down this rabbit hole of, hey, this is what money actually is.

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And do you ever get any feedback of, hey, I'm just not interested to learn about that or they just shut that conversation down altogether?

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Or do you feel like most of the clients you work with are receptive to get all of that background in order to make better financial investing decisions with you?

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The.

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You sorry, you asked me one question, I answer like four, three of those being questions you didn't ask, but I think it helps get better, like good context to how I approach this.

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so um from a i want to have that conversation perspective all of them do because it's important

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like we leave with that hey as we talk about investments you should know this and we just

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walk through and i think that's a that's a welcome conversation now as far as a making a decision from

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that conversation to own bitcoin that varies that can be hey i'm not comfortable with this right now

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that is an incredibly small sliver um of our clients right now um off the shooting from the

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hip our smallest allocation of bitcoin as a client is about a 10 holding and this is someone who took

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quite a while for them to come to terms with they should probably own some and uh this is something

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they had a lot of like a lot of personal bias against it that was built up over over decades

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So, yeah, there are other clients who, in that first conversation of what is money and what is Bitcoin, they're like, all right, I want to buy so much of this thing.

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So there's a spectrum there.

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There's also this moving spectrum of adoption and conviction on a personal basis.

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So the vast majority of the time, we have that conversation.

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They sit back and they say, wow, it sounds fantastic.

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I want to integrate this into my financial plan.

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Now we discuss how and what capacity.

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and then some of them, that's the leap. It took place. Then we have other clients. I had someone

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reach out to me a week ago who I've been, we've been working with them for years. They reached

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out to me a week ago and said, Hey Jim, like I, I've been listening to a lot more of the podcast

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and reading the books that you've sent me. And this is starting to make a lot more sense. I'm

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realizing now what fiat currencies are and what Bitcoin has the opportunity to become.

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and so this is a continuation from that initial conversation and generally once they go down that

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rabbit hole they start reaching out to me like hey jim i've i historically have owned 90 percent

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index funds 10 percent bitcoin but now that i have continued to pursue

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you know education in these fields i want to increase my bitcoin allocation versus my

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stand my traditional assets well i'm so happy you brought that up jim because i think yeah it's a

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it's a very important point so it's like okay i'm i'm building trust with my client assuming you know

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that that segment of your your bucket that has little to no previous understanding or exposure

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or background with bitcoin you're kind of taking him through the history of you know money you know

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what an open source protocol is, what the centralized ledger is, how, you know,

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Bitcoin is kind of like the antidote to a lot of these things.

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Do you have predefined resources you've created to help walk through this

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conversation? Do you send them to like Jamison Lopp's blog,

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different YouTube videos or podcasts Because it a little bit of a opening up a can of worms conversation You know Jordan and I joke you know 40 hours of Bitcoin podcast a week you know get your homework in And so that could you know kind of be extroverted on clients

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You have that busy lives, all that sort of thing.

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So what kind of materials are you using to help get them to that point?

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Yeah, typically I'll just walk them through a quick like slideshow.

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I'll just share my screen with some really goofy pictures of like just visuals to help.

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Like, all right, if we're going to talk about the history of money and things that have been used as forms of money, it's good to see like, you know, seashells and glass beads and rye stones.

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So just walking in through these visual resources as we talk through things have been used as money.

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And then maybe a picture of Roma Deniri or picture of the dollar when the dollar used to say that you could be it could be given in exchange to the Federal Reserve or a picture of the Gold Confiscation Act.

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That took place.

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So visualizations, it's not like charts and intense graphs.

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It's more like, hey, we're just having a conversation.

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Here's some pictures.

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Some of it's just like goofy memes, like Bitcoin memes as well.

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So, yeah, it's some comedy relief thrown into a macroeconomic history lesson.

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From there, I like to point people.

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there are a few podcasts that I think are great to get people started. And frankly,

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we'll probably get you about 99% of the way. So a lot of times I'll point people towards

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Preston Pysh and Robert Breedlove. I think it was the first conversation that Preston had devoted to

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Bitcoin. It was a, was it Bitcoin? It was a, the common misconceptions, I believe.

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That was from like back in 2020, I want to say. So I sent them that podcast. There's a conversation

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that I actually recorded with a buddy of mine. His name is Michael Schmid. Schmid's been mining

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Bitcoin from his home forever. And, uh, we walked through what is Bitcoin from a technical side,

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uh, for people like me who don't understand the technical, like computational side of Bitcoin.

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So I just ask them, I come across as playing the idiot so I can help other people understand. But

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frankly, these are real questions like, okay, what is a node? What does it mean to mine? What

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does it mean to solve a block? So they're very simple questions that he addresses in an

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understandable way. So the Preston Pysh, Robert Breedlove conversation that outlines like what

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is Bitcoin from a monetary history perspective, it sort of reinforces a lot of our talking points.

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And then the Michael Schmidt conversation with me that hits a lot of the technical stuff, I think is

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that can be a stumbling block for people like, okay, it sounds cool as money, but I don't trust

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it. Why should I trust this thing? And also it just tackles some of those buzzwords. So go through

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that there's some great books i mean the bitcoin standard is great um i actually recently finished

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reading uh gradually then suddenly uh by parker lewis it took me a very long time to read it

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because it's pretty dense i don't think i've recommended that to most clients um yeah i'm

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curious to read uh i need to dive more into lynn alden's broken money but yeah a lot of good

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resources out there. Dude, talk about dense, broken monies. I mean, great, great book. I think

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very highly of Lynn, but holy smokes, that's been, yeah, I like to think I have quite a bit

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of understanding and background in this field and it is really dense and it's taken me a long time

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to get through. It's like constantly rereading pages and chapters trying to grok it, but she

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does do a great job. I've always been the guy to read one book at a time. I just like to read one

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and finish it and go the next. But when I was reading gradually, then suddenly I was just

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it was tough to get through. So I was reading like four to five books at a time. And I would

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most nights I would start reading that. And I'd read that for 20 minutes. And then I would have

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to switch like a tax book in order to let my brain fall out. Yeah, it's, it's not good when

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you move to a tax or a niche specific, like there's another book. I just finished this one

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as well. The Ensemble Practice, a team-based approach to building a superior wealth management

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firm. That was my, that was my, okay, I need to give my brain a break from gradually then suddenly.

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It's funny. I was reading this on a plane recently. The guy next to me asked what I'm

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reading. I told him that he's like, wow, that's the most niche title I've ever heard.

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That's a, this is a great financial planning, like CPA firm, financial planning firm book.

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It's fantastic. If you're looking to build like a, like an ensemble, larger financial planning

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shop going from single to multiple owners. Well, I'm happy you brought that up as well. I know you

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have some interesting insight on that and you guys are doing some really exciting stuff on the

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growth front. I do want to put a pin into that for a second and circle back and to Jordan's

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portfolio sizing question, because it's funny, I would say I have a similar client base of folks

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that are Bitcoiners, want to work with somebody Bitcoin specific and then normies. It's funny,

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I get this question from most folks that aren't my clients about position sizing, getting into Bitcoin.

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I would like you to share your thoughts on that.

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And then on the Bitcoin native clients, are you ever having to tone back their allocation where you feel like as a fiduciary, they may be getting a little ahead of their skis?

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Or how do you approach the people that are hardcore into Bitcoin?

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Those are the tough ones.

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I would say our hardest clients and in most financial planning firms, jokingly and sometimes dot jokingly don't want to work with like engineers and stuff.

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But really Bitcoiners can be really tough clients because they're they're usually really well studied and maybe they spend a little bit too much time on Twitter and they can cross over from being founded in like principles of money and things like that to more of whatever.

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like josh mandel said that bitcoin is going to be 444 000 by this date so therefore i should

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i don't know like crazy stuff it's like dude you've been on twitter too much

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so those can be hard clients is helping people get out of their mindset of bitcoin's going to go to

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a bajillion dollars next week and it's like a hype fest um so there yeah we do have clients

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and that's coming from someone like essentially all my net worth is in bitcoin and bitcoin related

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things. Like that's what I own. My wife and I sold our house to buy more Bitcoin. So we are that in

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a sense. So some of the clients see me and they're like, they feel validated. Like, well, Jim, you're

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doing it. It's like, yeah, but I have a job as well. Or I'm way younger than you are. Or our

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circumstances are just different. And so, yeah, there are times I have to, and that's coming as

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a Bitcoin maxi standpoint. I have to tell people like, hey, I think that we should decrease your

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allocation in some capacity. We should own a little bit more cash. Like Bitcoin is insurance

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against a broken money system. But I mean, the US dollars insurance against Bitcoin,

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not doing what you hope it does in the next X amount of time. And I want to make sure that you

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have as much Bitcoin as possible in X amount of years. And sometimes that means that you should

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own a little bit less and own a little bit more dollars for the time being. So yeah, there's that

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place. And again, that can be really tough because you're not just overcoming logical all the time.

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you're overcoming these fallacies and uh a mindset that's stuck on i read this on twitter

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i don't know would you encounter that like if you if you listen to too many bitcoin podcasts you can

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start only seeing the world through this lens and you really you step back it's like oh wait a second

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like this is not how the world's operating right now and that can be dangerous i don't know do you

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what do you all what do you all see there yeah i would say i've encountered that situation a couple

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times where it's like, hey, I'm diversified. I'm 70% Bitcoin, 30% micro strategy. And by the way,

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I want to retire next year. And it's like, okay, let's talk, you know, sort of thing.

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So I hear you on that. And I think it's important to talk about too, because, you know, one of the

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things, you know, Jordan and I want to do with this podcast is help give, you know, other advisors

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like the tools to have these conversations. Obviously, sometimes you do need to have the

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uncomfortable ones. I do think Bitcoiners are extremely unique, interesting bunch,

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specifically with their preferences and communication styles. So I appreciate that.

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And I mean, tip of the cap, base gym, selling the house to buy more Bitcoin. That's awesome.

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Yeah, that was getting the wife on board for that one. We just re-signed our lease. So each year

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when the lease sign up comes, it's like, all right, are we going to sell some Bitcoin to go

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buy a house now um or do we do we punt it out a year so i convinced the wife to punt it punt it

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yet another year why don't have to send you this video it's i i was cracking up it's this guy in a

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very similar mode obviously like very uh it was a it was a joke i assume but this guy was like

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we could take a hundred thousand dollars and and go get married or we could delay the wedding out

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a year and he had all these charts i was doing this like full presentation his wife's just or

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fiance is just sitting there like who am i getting myself into it so that's what i'm picturing jim

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when you're having the conversations about about the house

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well it's funny i can get on board with the house but uh maybe you'll agree with me here jim as

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christian's like do not delay getting married spend your bitcoin to get married that's most

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important yeah those are conversations we have a lot really that's i enjoy that softer side of

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financial planning way more than I love. I really enjoy the technical side, but I guess the way I

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could put it and the way I phrase it to our clients is I care about our clients way more

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than I care about money. The thing is, if you genuinely care about your clients and you care

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about the things that are important to them, you'll be highly incentivized to help them manage

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their money really well because you have full buy-in to those things that they value. And that's how

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we view what we do is like, my goodness. Yeah. Like don't delay getting married. Don't delay like,

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you know, you have family, like go on, go do things, make memories. Um, don't just hoard as

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much Bitcoin as you can. That way one day you have X amount, like use it. Your money is a tool and a

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resource to help you do what's important to you in life. Money is a means of communicating what

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you value. You should probably communicate that. If you're telling your wife that you value spending

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time with her, you should have that reflected in the way that you use your money in your calendar.

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Um, if you, if you tell your kids that they're important to you, like you should probably maybe

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you work a little bit less or find a means of like spending time with them versus just taking

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extra jobs and gigs and stuff. So you can buy a little bit more Bitcoin, like your money

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communicates what you value. So make sure it's aligned. That is, that is our primary job as

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financial planners is that doing that. And then bringing in the technical side really well,

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helps us do those things better. Of course, if you, you can love people all you want,

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but if you're bad at your job as a financial planner, you're not going to actually be being

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able to help them do those things that they value. Um, but there's also the place of like,

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if you get too caught up on the money, you might find that like Stephen Covey talks about climbing,

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you're climbing the ladder. Let's lean up against the wrong wall. Maybe you've accumulated a ton of

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Bitcoin or a ton of dollars or whatever, but you miss the whole purpose anyways. And that is our

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biggest part of our job is, okay, what's valuable to you? How do we use your resources to support

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that purpose and how do we check in on that to make sure you're not uh succumbing to um maybe

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putting like jeopardizing your future self but also not missing all the things that you say are

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important to you that you'll never get back like i've i have four young kids i will never get these

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times back with my kids i can't say well in 15 years i'll have a lot more money so we can do the

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trips then in 15 years if i if i neglect my kids now in 15 years they're not going to hang out with

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me. So I have to have that balance of investing in my family, but also making sure that I'm able to

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take care of my family, you know, in 15 years. That's beautifully said, Jim. And I would say

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that's one gripe I would have with Bitcoiners and communicating with Bitcoiners and advisory role

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is I feel like a lot of times the Bitcoin community want to make your Bitcoin an idol,

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which is obviously wrong. They want to like hoard it. And it's really kind of helping them

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understand that framework you just laid out. It's like, no, this is a tool. We need to use it to

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increase our standard of living. And that's not a bad thing. I do kind of want to transition from,

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you know, Jim, the advisor to Jim, the CEO, because I do think you have some really interesting

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thoughts on building out not only a wealth management practice, but obviously building

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a business within the Bitcoin space. And you've shared some of this with the Bitcoin Financial

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advisors network which i'm super appreciative of but watch it just kind of a start and then we'll

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kind of get in how you're you're growing your firm but how you got how you went independent

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and then how you made the leave to you know feel confident to you know service bitcoiners

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with your firm i so i i started off at fidelity investments left there after a bit went to a like

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boutique financial planning shop was there for just like 15 or so months and it became very clear

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while I was there that I was pretty opinionated on how I think clients should be served in all

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capacities from a relationship perspective, an investment perspective, a depth of other financial

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planning areas, tax state, these areas. So I realized at that point, I could keep trying to

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find a firm that does it the way that I value and bolt onto them, but I decided rather to go in and

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start my own firm. So I separated from that company in January of 21. And I mean, I, I

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separate from them midday, went, went home, gave the wife a hug, went to the bank and, uh, uh,

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finished, uh, getting a few things set up. And I spent the next two weeks endlessly working on

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ADV and all that stuff. And, uh, that was two weeks before our third kid was due. My wife's a

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stay-at-home mom. So we went from, we went to zero income for me to start this company. So we spent,

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I spent two weeks building out ADV and do all these things. Baby came at that point. We had,

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I'd submitted the ADV to the state and just waited for a while for that to be verified while we were

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taking care of a newborn. And then it was, once we got the word back that we were, uh, approved,

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then it was off the races to build a business. And I didn't, uh, I didn't bring over a book of

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clients from an old firm. I don't have a bunch of wealthy friends and family. So it was day one. Hey,

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we don't have any clients and I need to build a, like we have no income. Uh, I need to build a

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business that can provide for our family. My wife and I gave ourselves around at least about a year

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of taking no income, any revenue that came to the business, we would just put back into the company.

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Um, and then we revisit one year later. So it was like, all right, we can go a year of no income,

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But at about 12 months from now, we need to be able to start taking some sort of income from this company.

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So I need to build from day one.

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I need to bring in clients so I can start paying myself in a year.

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But I also don't want to just be living.

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I don't want to build a company that's only for here now.

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I need to build something that's a sustainable long-term vision.

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And again, I really want to build something that has enterprise value.

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So also building up a long-term vision of this company.

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So from day one, that's what I was trying to build.

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is 12 months from now, I got to eat. But 20 years from now, I want this thing to be thriving too.

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So it was, that's how we started. It's pretty funny to look back like day one, a lot of,

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a lot of the work I did, I would go to a buddy's house. Um, well it was a friend of mine. He,

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he lived at an RV park, uh, on the river and, uh, I had, I had a newborn and two young kids

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and, uh, working from my house could be a, uh, it could be a burden. So I would,

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I would go to his place and I would work from a lawn chair with my feet in the river.

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You know, on occasion, I did that I would I'd work from home with crazy kids and trying to build a business. It's been quite an adventure. It's almost been five years, which is sort of bizarre. It's gone by really quick. And yeah, we're the the visions being built out. It's still it's going to be a long process, though.

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And Jim, were you already a Bitcoiner? Like, was this pre Bitcoin or no?

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Yes, I was a Bitcoiner.

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So March of 2020 is when it became abundantly clear that our money system was broken.

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Right before the government shutdowns, when we were talking about shutdowns.

398
00:33:22,449 --> 00:33:26,129
Like, I was aware of COVID in like December, January.

399
00:33:28,249 --> 00:33:47,778
So late January February it was like wow this is going to really wreck our economy And then there was speculation the government would step in in some capacity So very quickly it was like all right that not how many works Something wrong here I need to figure out I asked that question

400
00:33:47,878 --> 00:33:52,558
okay, what is money? And what, like from a historical standpoint, if the government can

401
00:33:52,558 --> 00:33:58,518
just print it, that doesn't make sense. What's the next best use or form of money? So obviously

402
00:33:58,518 --> 00:34:01,958
at that point, I was already familiar with stocks and bonds and pretty familiar with real estate,

403
00:34:02,518 --> 00:34:06,538
somewhat familiar with gold and a little bit familiar with Bitcoin. So I spent a few weeks,

404
00:34:06,818 --> 00:34:11,918
early 2020, just learning a lot more about Bitcoin, forming a thesis around stocks, bonds,

405
00:34:11,918 --> 00:34:18,118
real estate, Bitcoin, and gold. And then came out the other side, fully convinced that I like

406
00:34:18,118 --> 00:34:23,598
Bitcoin a lot. I was still at that other financial planning shop. And so that was also a catalyst of

407
00:34:23,598 --> 00:34:26,538
starting a loan company was being able to freely talk about Bitcoin to our clients.

408
00:34:28,518 --> 00:34:34,778
If you're a financial professional working with Bitcoin, you know the pain of messy CSVs,

409
00:34:34,938 --> 00:34:40,658
broken cost basis, and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. Bitment fixes that.

410
00:34:41,118 --> 00:34:46,278
Bitment is the Bitcoin-native accounting platform built for CPAs, bookkeepers, advisors,

411
00:34:46,738 --> 00:34:52,598
miners, and serious Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost

412
00:34:52,598 --> 00:34:57,718
basis tracking, full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid. No crypto talk,

413
00:34:57,858 --> 00:35:02,658
no workarounds, just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth. Create a free account or

414
00:35:02,658 --> 00:35:09,858
book a demo at bitment.co today. Something that comes to mind for me, and I actually,

415
00:35:10,258 --> 00:35:15,078
I feel this on my own side. I talk to clients that obviously we don't do any of this kind of

416
00:35:15,078 --> 00:35:21,458
planning, but it comes up in the tax conversation sometimes, is you want to start a business,

417
00:35:21,458 --> 00:35:27,338
you're sitting on some Bitcoin. There's this tendency for Bitcoiners to hoard their Bitcoin,

418
00:35:27,518 --> 00:35:31,498
whether it's, I'm going to delay starting a business or I'm going to delay that nice vacation

419
00:35:31,498 --> 00:35:37,298
or whatever it is, right? And so I guess, what would you say to a Bitcoiner who is like,

420
00:35:37,298 --> 00:35:45,178
hey, I see an opportunity to go build a product or service on top of Bitcoin. But in order to do

421
00:35:45,178 --> 00:35:51,938
that, I've actually got to spend or at least put some of that Bitcoin at risk in order to go build

422
00:35:51,938 --> 00:35:56,818
that company. Do you have those conversations with any of your clients ever? Yeah, I can answer that

423
00:35:56,818 --> 00:36:06,158
from two perspectives. One is the qualitative side, I guess. So for me personally, when I

424
00:36:06,158 --> 00:36:11,978
started this company two weeks before baby number three came, I had some friends like,

425
00:36:11,978 --> 00:36:16,798
dude that's crazy just go take another job at a large institution that has good benefits and it's

426
00:36:16,798 --> 00:36:21,778
very safe and yeah it sounds it sounded nice in the sense of like it was safe and comfortable

427
00:36:21,778 --> 00:36:28,878
but personally i knew that if i did not start this company when i was 62 i would look back and say

428
00:36:28,878 --> 00:36:34,118
i wonder what would have happened if i would have had the guts to start this thing and that that

429
00:36:34,118 --> 00:36:41,698
the fear of regret was far greater than the fear of not succeeding so there's that it's like all

430
00:36:41,698 --> 00:36:44,898
right, you want to build this thing. And of course, not everyone should start a business.

431
00:36:45,678 --> 00:36:50,818
There's a decent chance your business is going to fail, like statistically. And some businesses

432
00:36:50,818 --> 00:36:55,438
just not exist. Like, all right, that's a bad business, whatever. So I'm not saying just because

433
00:36:55,438 --> 00:37:00,038
you want to start it, you should. But if it is a good business, and if you have that perspective,

434
00:37:00,038 --> 00:37:06,678
like, man, I wonder what if, and I have that regret, don't ignore that. And then yeah,

435
00:37:06,678 --> 00:37:11,338
from the financial side of things as well, like I personally, I like Bitcoin. I think that we'll

436
00:37:11,338 --> 00:37:15,818
do well over a long period of time. But like, I also think that a personal business can do really

437
00:37:15,818 --> 00:37:22,418
well. Um, so owning or just looking at it for more from the, uh, quantitative side. Okay. If

438
00:37:22,418 --> 00:37:28,698
you're going to sell to Bitcoin to fund this business, um, that's going to cost you $200,000.

439
00:37:29,418 --> 00:37:33,458
Uh, let's, okay. Let's measure. What do you think Bitcoin will be in the next 15 years?

440
00:37:33,538 --> 00:37:36,878
If your business does what you think it will do, it's going to cost you today. It's going to cost

441
00:37:36,878 --> 00:37:42,638
you $200,000, what do you think the business from a exit standpoint will be valued at in 15 years?

442
00:37:42,798 --> 00:37:46,758
Also, if you're taking revenue from the business on an annual basis, that's going to give you a

443
00:37:46,758 --> 00:37:51,298
coupon. So what's the total cash on cash return for that $200,000 you invested in your business

444
00:37:51,298 --> 00:37:55,858
versus just keeping the Bitcoin? So you can approach it from that perspective and also the

445
00:37:55,858 --> 00:38:01,878
perspective of, again, like, I wonder what if I would have left my job to start that business when

446
00:38:01,878 --> 00:38:09,898
I was 37 versus, um, yeah, just sitting there and doing your, doing your nine to five.

447
00:38:10,438 --> 00:38:11,698
I think there's nothing wrong with nine to five either.

448
00:38:11,798 --> 00:38:12,758
Just consider these things.

449
00:38:16,038 --> 00:38:16,438
Definitely.

450
00:38:16,918 --> 00:38:17,278
Definitely.

451
00:38:17,378 --> 00:38:19,638
No, I love that point on opportunity costs.

452
00:38:19,718 --> 00:38:22,598
You know, as entrepreneur, we're all entrepreneurs here.

453
00:38:22,658 --> 00:38:27,018
I think, yeah, uh, making that investment into, you know, starting a business is, is one of

454
00:38:27,018 --> 00:38:30,738
the most rewarding and, and freeing things, you know, you can do, you know, big corners

455
00:38:30,738 --> 00:38:31,638
are really big.

456
00:38:31,638 --> 00:38:35,618
I'm being sovereign, it's like, well, start your own business then. That's a pretty good way to be

457
00:38:35,618 --> 00:38:41,998
sovereign. I'm curious, Jimmy, you could take this whatever way you like, but just being a

458
00:38:41,998 --> 00:38:48,738
Bitcoiner, starting a business, specifically in the wealth management field, has your interest

459
00:38:48,738 --> 00:38:54,258
in Bitcoin, servicing Bitcoiners affected your business model and how you've been

460
00:38:54,258 --> 00:38:56,478
intentional with building out your firm?

461
00:38:56,478 --> 00:39:01,438
uh to an extent

462
00:39:01,438 --> 00:39:10,918
i i mean obviously could impact us just from a client standpoint like again we have a decent

463
00:39:10,918 --> 00:39:15,398
amount of clients who came to us specifically because of our understanding and integration of

464
00:39:15,398 --> 00:39:22,438
bitcoin so just from the type of clients we serve the i sort of joke around that like you know i

465
00:39:22,438 --> 00:39:27,038
told you like pretty much all of our liquid net worth is in bitcoin or bitcoin related investments

466
00:39:27,038 --> 00:39:33,978
so uh but i at the same time like the other portion of my net worth is in the equity value

467
00:39:33,978 --> 00:39:41,158
of my company that i own now with that said the more that our company myself and this company

468
00:39:41,158 --> 00:39:47,418
become intertwined with bitcoin itself questionably let's say bitcoin went to zero and it came out

469
00:39:47,418 --> 00:39:48,738
that it was all a huge Ponzi scheme.

470
00:39:49,418 --> 00:39:57,138
The, probably the, the, uh, the reduction of value of trust that people have in me and

471
00:39:57,138 --> 00:39:59,178
our brand as a company would also go down.

472
00:39:59,338 --> 00:40:06,198
So even you have some coupling of my company that is non-Bitcoin has been coupled with

473
00:40:06,198 --> 00:40:08,538
Bitcoin itself because of how vocal we are about it.

474
00:40:08,918 --> 00:40:14,358
So I am aware of that, um, and try to manage that properly.

475
00:40:14,358 --> 00:40:19,658
not because I think Bitcoin is going to go to zero, largely because of, again, like I've taken

476
00:40:19,658 --> 00:40:24,378
flack from Bitcoiners about not talking about Bitcoin on our financial planning website. And

477
00:40:24,378 --> 00:40:29,338
again, that's, that's, that's largely due to, well, like, Hey, if your parents or grandparents

478
00:40:29,338 --> 00:40:33,318
were looking for retirement help and they logged in and they, they went on someone's website and it

479
00:40:33,318 --> 00:40:38,018
had Bitcoin on their front page, would they hire them? Probably not. Do you want your parents or

480
00:40:38,018 --> 00:40:44,918
grandparents to own Bitcoin? Probably. Okay. Well then what's the problem? So that's, that's how

481
00:40:44,918 --> 00:40:52,938
we've hit. That's how we've navigated this. Yeah, that, that's awesome. I appreciate you,

482
00:40:53,018 --> 00:40:57,298
you sharing that. I'm curious in your opinions. I know you guys are growing, which is fantastic.

483
00:40:57,558 --> 00:41:01,698
I have, you know, a ton of respect for, for your vision and what you want to do with the firm. And

484
00:41:01,698 --> 00:41:05,318
I think, you know, it's crucially important. We are, we have entrepreneurs like yourself that are

485
00:41:05,318 --> 00:41:10,578
building out growing businesses and the Bitcoin professional services, Bitcoin financial services

486
00:41:10,578 --> 00:41:16,518
space. When you're looking at hiring talent, how are you kind of evaluating folks? Are you looking

487
00:41:16,518 --> 00:41:21,878
for an understanding of Bitcoin and then teaching them traditional finance stuff? Are you looking

488
00:41:21,878 --> 00:41:26,318
for an understanding of traditional finance stuff and teaching them Bitcoin? Man, it's tough.

489
00:41:27,238 --> 00:41:32,718
Hiring people in this space, I think the primary thing I look for is someone I can trust. And

490
00:41:32,718 --> 00:41:37,018
there's, there's a, it's, it's more of a character side of things. I need to know I can trust you,

491
00:41:37,018 --> 00:41:41,638
um, that you're aligned with the vision of what we're building. I need to know that you genuinely

492
00:41:41,638 --> 00:41:45,858
will care about our clients. I need, I need to know that you're intellectually curious

493
00:41:45,858 --> 00:41:52,018
and intellectually honest and that you have an IQ that's high enough to be able to actually go

494
00:41:52,018 --> 00:41:57,518
and learn and implement these things. That's it. Um, that's going to largely mean that we're

495
00:41:57,518 --> 00:42:01,798
going to have to hire outside the space, not because people in the space don't fit those

496
00:42:01,798 --> 00:42:06,898
criteria. I guess that's separate. We will largely have to hire outside of this space,

497
00:42:06,898 --> 00:42:12,218
not because of what I just said, but because a lot of people in this space have the,

498
00:42:12,718 --> 00:42:17,638
this can sound really harsh from what I've witnessed. A lot of people in the financial

499
00:42:17,638 --> 00:42:23,778
planning space do not have the intellectual curiosity to explore Bitcoin in a consistent

500
00:42:23,778 --> 00:42:25,958
and unbiased manner.

501
00:42:26,398 --> 00:42:29,398
And to take someone

502
00:42:29,398 --> 00:42:32,798
who will not intellectually,

503
00:42:32,958 --> 00:42:33,898
consistently and honestly

504
00:42:33,898 --> 00:42:34,978
evaluate Bitcoin

505
00:42:34,978 --> 00:42:36,558
and have them plug into

506
00:42:36,558 --> 00:42:37,898
how we manage our investments

507
00:42:37,898 --> 00:42:38,398
for our clients

508
00:42:38,398 --> 00:42:39,718
and how we view economic

509
00:42:39,718 --> 00:42:43,438
and financial and monetary policy

510
00:42:43,438 --> 00:42:44,598
would be really tough.

511
00:42:45,518 --> 00:42:47,098
So I'm looking for people

512
00:42:47,098 --> 00:42:48,898
who are sort of unplugged from that.

513
00:42:49,018 --> 00:42:49,658
And maybe that means

514
00:42:49,658 --> 00:42:50,858
just outside the system total

515
00:42:50,858 --> 00:42:51,838
and they can just learn everything.

516
00:42:51,838 --> 00:42:59,798
so yeah i can i can if i can find someone who's good like a good person who generally cares who

517
00:42:59,798 --> 00:43:03,638
is intellectually curious enough that's the big point and again they have the iq you can be curious

518
00:43:03,638 --> 00:43:09,058
but an idiot and yeah you have a lot of questions that you know i'm not my kids aren't idiots but my

519
00:43:09,058 --> 00:43:13,178
four-year-old asks a lot of questions and i can explain all day he just won't understand so he's

520
00:43:13,178 --> 00:43:16,818
intellectually curious he just doesn't have the developed brain power to understand it so i need

521
00:43:16,818 --> 00:43:21,278
to have both those you can have really smart people who honestly aren't maybe they're they're

522
00:43:21,278 --> 00:43:25,298
taking some shortcuts that's going to allow them to not lead to the proper conclusions.

523
00:43:25,598 --> 00:43:28,938
So I don't want that either. So how do, how do we marry these things? So that that's,

524
00:43:29,058 --> 00:43:33,038
that's a really long way of sort of answering your question. So the people you've hired. So again,

525
00:43:33,098 --> 00:43:38,498
for started this company, I left the other company, January of 21 started this, I think

526
00:43:38,498 --> 00:43:44,538
March-ish of 21 is when we got approved. Um, it was just me for quite a bit. Um, and then I brought

527
00:43:44,538 --> 00:43:50,798
on first hire was a guy named Jack. I met Jack playing basketball. Um, he was in college. He

528
00:43:50,798 --> 00:43:55,738
intern with me and would then just follow up and say, Hey, I've, you know, between classes,

529
00:43:55,838 --> 00:43:59,278
what book should I read or what should I learn about? Should I switch my major? These sorts of

530
00:43:59,278 --> 00:44:04,278
things. I saw that he actually wanted to learn and had genuine interest in what I did and wanted to

531
00:44:04,278 --> 00:44:09,218
learn about it from a business side of things about how to handle clients better. Um, so he

532
00:44:09,218 --> 00:44:14,338
started with me once he graduated college, he was my first hire. He was my assistant and he's had

533
00:44:14,338 --> 00:44:19,918
the displeasure of listening to me talk all day, every day for several years now. Um, it was just

534
00:44:19,918 --> 00:44:25,638
Jack and I for a couple of years. And then I brought on Cade. Cade is a CFP who I worked with

535
00:44:25,638 --> 00:44:31,118
back in the day at Fidelity. Great guy. Um, he is a Bitcoiner. He fell into the Bitcoin rabbit hole

536
00:44:31,118 --> 00:44:37,938
for years back. Um, we stayed in close contact, um, and about a year ago today, I think maybe,

537
00:44:37,938 --> 00:44:44,938
um, Cade joined me as a, as a CFP. Um, and then we've brought on another guy's name's Bobby.

538
00:44:44,938 --> 00:44:47,438
to help out.

539
00:44:47,618 --> 00:44:48,838
So Jack and Bobby right now

540
00:44:48,838 --> 00:44:50,078
are doing a similar role.

541
00:44:50,158 --> 00:44:51,538
They're going through their CFP curriculum.

542
00:44:52,118 --> 00:44:53,518
So we're sort of layering these people on.

543
00:44:53,558 --> 00:44:54,358
It's going to get tough though.

544
00:44:54,458 --> 00:44:56,158
Like I have other people in my pipeline of,

545
00:44:56,358 --> 00:44:58,598
hey, whenever we get to this needed place of hiring,

546
00:44:59,098 --> 00:45:00,998
we're going to bring in this next person.

547
00:45:01,478 --> 00:45:03,218
And what I'm trying to do is cue people up.

548
00:45:04,238 --> 00:45:06,058
Jack, we brought him in with no experience.

549
00:45:06,718 --> 00:45:08,798
He'll take notes and listen to conversations

550
00:45:08,798 --> 00:45:11,818
and just get integrated to how we view things.

551
00:45:12,638 --> 00:45:14,358
And then one day he'll move into this

552
00:45:14,358 --> 00:45:19,458
assistant financial planner role, and then it'll lead into a lead planner role in a long time.

553
00:45:19,858 --> 00:45:24,958
And then building up from there is largely you're gonna have to do things. Now, of course,

554
00:45:24,958 --> 00:45:30,918
if you're going to try to jump from small to enterprise somewhat fast, it's going to,

555
00:45:31,018 --> 00:45:34,458
you're going to reach a place that's going to be impossible to build a sustainable company by

556
00:45:34,458 --> 00:45:40,338
hiring 21 year olds who have a five-year lead time of training. And that's something I'm trying

557
00:45:40,338 --> 00:45:45,078
to address right now. So fortunately, I have been on quite a few podcasts that are industry facing

558
00:45:45,078 --> 00:45:50,458
as well. So there are times that I'll have tons of people reach out to me about, hey, I'm looking

559
00:45:50,458 --> 00:45:54,918
at starting my own firm, or I want to join a firm that I align with better or whatever. And all these

560
00:45:54,918 --> 00:46:01,138
people will talk and like, hey, do you really want to start your own firm? Or are you dissatisfied

561
00:46:01,138 --> 00:46:07,238
with the firms you can find? But that's why you think you have to start your own. And whatever.

562
00:46:07,238 --> 00:46:27,238
So I have a queue of people from this, these conversations as well that I could reach out to and see if they want to join forces as well. So that's sort of what I'm trying to do is slowly build on a team. That's, yeah, again, intellectually curious and honest enough to explore this.

563
00:46:27,238 --> 00:46:45,398
Otherwise, yeah, you can have really smart people who are industry experienced, who won't do things the way that we do. I mean, you see that all the time with CFP forums and stuff with people who don't see it similarly. So they'd be great hires. If I was at a normal financial planning firm, they'd be fantastic. But the way we do things here, just unjive.

564
00:46:45,398 --> 00:46:53,218
well how and how do you so how do you approach the conversation i mean and maybe we just make

565
00:46:53,218 --> 00:46:57,838
it even more broad do you have conversations with a lot of more traditional advisors

566
00:46:57,838 --> 00:47:04,778
just generally and then maybe hone in on if you're talking with any of those folks as hay

567
00:47:04,778 --> 00:47:10,618
plant the seed of maybe they would want to jump ship at some point in the next three to five years

568
00:47:10,618 --> 00:47:27,978
I'm just curious how those conversations just go generally, just based on obviously reason why we're starting this podcast and did the in-person event was we just think that the traditional advisor space is in dire need of folks like who is on this call, right?

569
00:47:27,978 --> 00:47:33,018
kind of coming alongside them and teaching them about Bitcoin. But I'm curious the reaction you

570
00:47:33,018 --> 00:47:39,298
get and how you might have to explain yourself or how the firm operates with these Bitcoin standards

571
00:47:39,298 --> 00:47:45,678
versus the traditional model. Yeah, that's tough. I'm part of a few forums and stuff for financial

572
00:47:45,678 --> 00:47:51,238
planners. And talking about Bitcoin in those places is really rough. I get a lot of tomatoes

573
00:47:51,238 --> 00:47:57,958
thrown at me. But if I can actually have a one-on-one conversation, there's way less tomatoes.

574
00:47:57,978 --> 00:48:04,758
And maybe that's because people are less apt to be a jerk when you're actually talking to someone versus posting on social media.

575
00:48:06,078 --> 00:48:13,038
Or maybe it's because they're willing to let their guard down and actually just have a conversation and be understood and be willing to understand things.

576
00:48:14,158 --> 00:48:21,138
Yeah. So to answer your question, I try to engage a lot of financial planners through like the XYPN.

577
00:48:21,318 --> 00:48:27,858
The XY Planning Network has a Facebook page for XYPN members to talk about all things financial planning and financial planning company related.

578
00:48:27,978 --> 00:48:34,058
I will routinely post about Bitcoin on there. Always a bad response. That is every once in a while,

579
00:48:34,118 --> 00:48:38,038
have someone say, Hey, I saw that you post about Bitcoin. I'm actually curious. I want to learn.

580
00:48:38,658 --> 00:48:43,138
And they never say that on the post. I don't know why it's like, dude, well, chime on there. I'm

581
00:48:43,138 --> 00:48:46,418
getting no support here, buddy. Uh, they'll reach out to me separately. So then we'll have

582
00:48:46,418 --> 00:48:51,698
conversations and those usually go well. Um, or I'll have people who are relatively antagonistic

583
00:48:51,698 --> 00:48:57,238
about Bitcoin and we'll sit down and we'll talk and we'll hear each other out and they leave more

584
00:48:57,238 --> 00:49:03,218
open to it. Or I'll have people reach out to me. They heard me on a podcast and they won't know

585
00:49:03,218 --> 00:49:08,678
anything about Bitcoin. We'll just talk about business itself. And then I'll bring up Bitcoin.

586
00:49:08,818 --> 00:49:12,018
And like, oh, well, they've respected what they've heard from me thus far. And that's why they reached

587
00:49:12,018 --> 00:49:16,018
out to me initially. So there's going to be some level of trust to be at least willing to hear me

588
00:49:16,018 --> 00:49:25,678
out on the Bitcoin side of things. Yeah, I love some of the stories you and Gerard shared and

589
00:49:25,678 --> 00:49:28,698
the Bitcoin Financial Advisor Network about your endeavors.

590
00:49:28,978 --> 00:49:31,418
And is it XY or what's it called?

591
00:49:31,678 --> 00:49:33,618
Yeah, the XY Planning Network, XYPN.

592
00:49:34,058 --> 00:49:35,278
Yeah, it's rough.

593
00:49:35,358 --> 00:49:36,418
I get a lot of hate on there.

594
00:49:36,658 --> 00:49:38,818
I'm not a popular guy in the financial planning world.

595
00:49:41,458 --> 00:49:42,618
Well, good on you, Jim.

596
00:49:42,738 --> 00:49:45,678
You carried the orange flag proudly, and we appreciate that.

597
00:49:46,678 --> 00:49:51,258
One of the, I think, when you're dipping your toe in both these worlds,

598
00:49:51,258 --> 00:49:54,138
from the Bitcoin side of things, there's this demonization

599
00:49:54,138 --> 00:50:01,178
of traditional finance and traditional financial planning tactics from the other side of things,

600
00:50:01,178 --> 00:50:08,458
there's this demonization of Bitcoin. So if you're just the average advisor, maybe you're

601
00:50:09,158 --> 00:50:12,278
interested in Bitcoin, maybe you're a smaller firm that's more likely to embrace Bitcoin,

602
00:50:12,838 --> 00:50:17,338
maybe you're a bigger firm where your compliance team is finally starting to let you talk about

603
00:50:17,338 --> 00:50:28,607
Bitcoin What are some traditional financial planning tactics that you use to apply to Bitcoiners or Bitcoin holdings Hmm

604
00:50:29,907 --> 00:50:33,147
This might not answer your question, but areas that is top of mind,

605
00:50:33,247 --> 00:50:35,507
obviously there's going to be asset allocation.

606
00:50:35,827 --> 00:50:40,407
There's going to be the behavioral side of things of financial planning.

607
00:50:40,747 --> 00:50:42,647
You have, I mean, estate planning.

608
00:50:42,887 --> 00:50:46,647
Like if you own Bitcoin, how does that work in your estate plan?

609
00:50:46,647 --> 00:50:47,767
Should you hold it in a trust?

610
00:50:47,767 --> 00:50:49,607
Should it be an irrevocable, revocable?

611
00:50:49,807 --> 00:50:51,307
How's it going to impact these things?

612
00:50:51,347 --> 00:50:55,427
How's it going to impact your estate tax?

613
00:50:55,567 --> 00:50:58,807
How will it impact the capital gains tax for your beneficiaries?

614
00:50:59,047 --> 00:50:59,627
All these things.

615
00:50:59,907 --> 00:51:04,947
General tax planning, tax loss harvesting, not having the wash sale rule applied to Bitcoin

616
00:51:04,947 --> 00:51:05,627
at the moment.

617
00:51:05,907 --> 00:51:06,707
These sorts of things.

618
00:51:07,067 --> 00:51:15,387
If you own Bitcoin proxy stocks, like, okay, maybe you bought MicroStrategy at $400 and

619
00:51:15,387 --> 00:51:19,807
And now you have a massive loss to, to, uh, that you can harvest, but you don't want to

620
00:51:19,807 --> 00:51:20,767
get out of Bitcoin completely.

621
00:51:20,767 --> 00:51:21,387
Like, all right.

622
00:51:21,387 --> 00:51:25,787
So now we're, again, that's integration of like investments, but then also tax planning.

623
00:51:26,167 --> 00:51:29,487
So, I mean, it crosses all fields, budgeting savings rates.

624
00:51:29,527 --> 00:51:33,487
A lot of Bitcoiners tend to be pretty, uh, frugal.

625
00:51:33,887 --> 00:51:38,667
So talking through even just like spending rates, saving rates, they're, they're usually

626
00:51:38,667 --> 00:51:41,047
are pretty good at delaying gratification.

627
00:51:41,047 --> 00:51:46,227
You know, a lot of Bitcoiners are right now frugal, but have these long-term visions of grandeur.

628
00:51:47,967 --> 00:51:52,807
So, yeah, I think it's getting easier now.

629
00:51:53,147 --> 00:52:01,807
But four years ago, it was a lot tougher to be a Bitcoin financial planner because Bitcoiners were like, my financial plan is Bitcoin.

630
00:52:01,967 --> 00:52:02,607
I don't need you.

631
00:52:02,767 --> 00:52:08,207
It's like, dude, that's like saying Vanguard total U.S. stock market is your financial plan.

632
00:52:08,327 --> 00:52:09,727
Like, that's really stupid to say.

633
00:52:09,727 --> 00:52:10,807
It's not a financial plan, dude.

634
00:52:11,047 --> 00:52:15,527
um, Bitcoin is not a financial plan. It's a tool that can be integrated into a financial plan.

635
00:52:16,267 --> 00:52:21,547
Um, it's like literally you say Bitcoin is money and then Bitcoin is your financial plan. That's

636
00:52:21,547 --> 00:52:25,947
like saying money is my financial plan. Like according to your semantics, Bitcoin is money

637
00:52:25,947 --> 00:52:28,807
and Bitcoin is my financial plan. Money is my financial plan. Like, dude, get out of here with

638
00:52:28,807 --> 00:52:34,927
that. Like use logic. Um, I hate that stuff. Um, yeah. So for you, a few years ago, it was that,

639
00:52:34,967 --> 00:52:39,147
oh, Bitcoin is my financial plan. So I had that hate coming from me, but then you had like financial

640
00:52:39,147 --> 00:52:43,207
planners who are like, dude, you're, you into Bitcoin? Are you an idiot? It's like, there's

641
00:52:43,207 --> 00:52:46,627
no one friendly out there. There's like five people that would not think I was an idiot. So

642
00:52:46,627 --> 00:52:50,447
it's, it's getting a lot more friendly from the Bitcoin side of things. I think Bitcoiners are

643
00:52:50,447 --> 00:52:53,967
warming up to like, Hey, there's actually, maybe you have a whole lot of Bitcoin. It's like, well,

644
00:52:54,087 --> 00:52:58,687
dang, now I have a state tax needs or people realizing like, Oh, there's actually tax planning

645
00:52:58,687 --> 00:53:03,407
you can do around this thing. Or again, like, well, I own some Bitcoin, but I also own some

646
00:53:03,407 --> 00:53:08,987
Bitcoin ETF. And I want to do some stuff around tax wise or crud. I've spent Bitcoin over the

647
00:53:08,987 --> 00:53:14,467
last few years and I might be in trouble with the IRS. How do I reconcile this? Or I don't know,

648
00:53:14,547 --> 00:53:21,947
like X, Y, Z. So it is starting to be more respected amongst Bitcoiners as well. But for a

649
00:53:21,947 --> 00:53:28,767
while, I felt like Rodney Dangerfield getting no respect. That's great, Jim. I appreciate that

650
00:53:28,767 --> 00:53:33,007
because that's what I'm hoping, you know, your standard advisor, they don't have to be intimidated

651
00:53:33,007 --> 00:53:37,447
about embracing Bitcoin. It's still, you know, a lot of the things they already know, it's just

652
00:53:37,447 --> 00:53:42,567
applying it to Bitcoin. It doesn't need to be this 300-pound gorilla in the room. It's like,

653
00:53:42,567 --> 00:53:45,947
no, you already have a lot of this knowledge. Now you're just applying it to Bitcoin.

654
00:54:07,447 --> 00:54:11,307
and individuals. They speak the language of Bitcoiners and help you stay compliant while

655
00:54:11,307 --> 00:54:16,787
building for the longterm. To learn more or book a consultation, visit satoshipacioli.com.

656
00:54:18,007 --> 00:54:22,667
Yeah, I'll regularly get clients who are like, Hey, the clients are like super Bitcoiners. Like,

657
00:54:22,747 --> 00:54:28,367
Hey, I need an estate attorney. Who's like super Bitcoiner. And it's like, that can help. Or I need

658
00:54:28,367 --> 00:54:32,787
a CPA. Who's like super Bitcoiner, which can help, but it depends on the capacity. Like maybe

659
00:54:32,787 --> 00:54:37,307
your CPA or your, let's say your attorney, like your attorney recognized the Bitcoin for

660
00:54:37,307 --> 00:54:42,007
like estate purposes is like property. All right. Well, just don't be an idiot and don't like,

661
00:54:42,127 --> 00:54:45,327
make sure your attorney understands what Bitcoin is and they can integrate it to your financial

662
00:54:45,327 --> 00:54:52,287
plan, like any other asset or property. And then also like not disclose like seed phrase is here

663
00:54:52,287 --> 00:54:55,867
and dah, dah, dah. Like, okay, just don't do those things, but you don't need like a Bitcoin

664
00:54:55,867 --> 00:55:03,227
specialty attorney per se. Now there is a place like if you own a lot of Bitcoin and you have

665
00:55:03,227 --> 00:55:09,067
something in your life that's like that should apply specifically to a bitcoiner um then it could

666
00:55:09,067 --> 00:55:12,867
make sense or obviously having someone who understands bitcoin that that does estate

667
00:55:12,867 --> 00:55:18,747
planning is helpful um maybe they have better connections with or understandings of how multi

668
00:55:18,747 --> 00:55:24,047
sigs can work or i don't know these different fields like if you if you're a state attorney

669
00:55:24,047 --> 00:55:28,067
if you have 100 of your net worth in bitcoin and your net worth is 20 million and your state

670
00:55:28,067 --> 00:55:31,767
attorney thinks that bitcoin is going to go to zero they're probably not going to see a need for

671
00:55:31,767 --> 00:55:36,907
having like an irrevocable trust and these sorts of things versus if you have a state attorney,

672
00:55:36,907 --> 00:55:41,847
who's a Bitcoiner and you have $20 million all in Bitcoin, they're going to be viewing your tax

673
00:55:41,847 --> 00:55:45,867
planning and your estate planning needs way differently. So there is that place. Same thing

674
00:55:45,867 --> 00:55:51,167
with a CPA perspective. Um, you know, I have clients reach out. It's like, Hey Jim, I, I need

675
00:55:51,167 --> 00:55:56,867
a new CPA. I want someone who is a total Bitcoin maxi X, Y, Z. I just need them to do my books for

676
00:55:56,867 --> 00:56:01,167
my business. It's like your business is a, is a truck repair shop. Like that has nothing to

677
00:56:01,167 --> 00:56:06,647
with Bitcoin. It's not necessary. Is it nice? It can't, it can be. Um, but is it, is it always

678
00:56:06,647 --> 00:56:12,167
necessary? So anyways, going back to ease, to ease your, the listeners who are like, I sort of

679
00:56:12,167 --> 00:56:17,087
understand Bitcoin. I sort of like it, but I don't know how to integrate this to my, to like

680
00:56:17,087 --> 00:56:21,727
financial planning or tax planning or estate planning. Like, yes, it is totally different

681
00:56:21,727 --> 00:56:26,507
in one sense, but at the same time, like, it's not like we're talking about something that has

682
00:56:26,507 --> 00:56:31,607
just the outrageously different tax and estate and investment rules applied to it for some reason.

683
00:56:31,747 --> 00:56:40,047
It's not that unusual. Yeah. One thing I got to ask you before we let you go is, you know,

684
00:56:40,047 --> 00:56:47,747
I talk to advisors a lot and they bucket things, they bucket crypto, you know, is this like

685
00:56:47,747 --> 00:56:53,487
overarching bucket. I'd just be curious if you're speaking with an advisor that's newer to Bitcoin,

686
00:56:53,487 --> 00:56:59,647
but they're still thinking in this framework of Bitcoin is just part of this whole crypto bucket.

687
00:56:59,867 --> 00:57:01,687
There's all these crypto plays.

688
00:57:02,207 --> 00:57:08,327
How do you explain that, whether you're talking to an advisor or a client?

689
00:57:10,227 --> 00:57:15,727
We would really try to make it a point of that goes back to how we introduce what Bitcoin is.

690
00:57:16,187 --> 00:57:20,067
So history of money, stores of value, history of cryptography and internet-based monies,

691
00:57:20,287 --> 00:57:22,347
and then history of Bitcoin specifically.

692
00:57:22,347 --> 00:57:34,947
If we've done a good job up front on those things, that should remove that the confusion of Bitcoin is general crypto.

693
00:57:34,947 --> 00:57:42,147
like okay if the primary thesis here is to create a decentralized internet-based money that's peer-to-peer

694
00:57:42,147 --> 00:57:50,967
and scarce um that has a again a decentralized ledger that's the primary theme that we're going

695
00:57:50,967 --> 00:57:55,967
for tell me again how ethereum applies to that okay it doesn't by your own admission

696
00:57:55,967 --> 00:58:01,967
doesn't apply so why are we talking about this again so we just try to do a good job of educating

697
00:58:01,967 --> 00:58:07,587
like what it is that we're solving for yeah maybe maybe your weird altcoin the thing it's solving for

698
00:58:07,587 --> 00:58:14,567
is the possible quick run-up due to hype followed by a drastic pulldown because of reality um just

699
00:58:14,567 --> 00:58:21,027
admit that um so we have to foundationally going back to the first principles like why are we owning

700
00:58:21,027 --> 00:58:24,527
this thing and admit why you want to own this other thing and let's approach it from that

701
00:58:24,527 --> 00:58:31,487
perspective you know it's like oh well that it's like saying that you want to this is a bad

702
00:58:31,487 --> 00:58:36,927
illustration but it's like saying that you want to own vti vanguard's total u.s stock market fund

703
00:58:36,927 --> 00:58:41,567
but you're going to bucket that oh well that goes in my penny stocks bucket because it's all stocks

704
00:58:41,567 --> 00:58:49,507
like that that doesn't make any sense dude um so bitcoin is obviously it's cryptocurrency

705
00:58:49,507 --> 00:58:55,827
but just to put it into this general bucket of like oh i'm going to own this fund that owns

706
00:58:55,827 --> 00:59:03,287
Bitcoin and Cardano and 20 other cryptocurrencies to catch this trend. If you do that,

707
00:59:03,727 --> 00:59:11,127
you don't understand Bitcoin. Um, yeah, I do have a couple of clients who do invest some in altcoins

708
00:59:11,127 --> 00:59:17,227
and they view it more like they do it. They view it as like sort of scratch offs and they view

709
00:59:17,227 --> 00:59:23,147
Bitcoin as their savings. And these things are like gambling and it's admitted. And if you can

710
00:59:23,147 --> 00:59:27,687
at least admit that, then I can give you a pass sometimes. But if you're trying to pretend that

711
00:59:27,687 --> 00:59:31,087
the same thing, then like, dude, you don't understand it. We got to go, we got to go further

712
00:59:31,087 --> 00:59:40,567
back. Totally. No, I think that's a great summary here. And yeah, Jim, I'm just curious. So you

713
00:59:40,567 --> 00:59:44,307
mentioned, you know, when you started the firm kind of feels like you're on island, you know,

714
00:59:44,307 --> 00:59:48,967
we've had this kind of robust build out of tools and products over the last couple of years.

715
00:59:48,967 --> 00:59:53,747
as a professional operating the Bitcoin wealth management space.

716
00:59:53,747 --> 00:59:57,487
I'd love you to just kind of talk on what your experience has been like

717
00:59:57,487 --> 00:59:59,567
at the Bitcoin Financial Advisors Network,

718
00:59:59,567 --> 01:00:01,327
working with like-minded professionals

719
01:00:01,327 --> 01:00:04,407
and use this really as kind of a way to encourage people

720
01:00:04,407 --> 01:00:06,507
that are either heavily involved in this space

721
01:00:06,507 --> 01:00:08,387
or people that are thinking about getting involved

722
01:00:08,387 --> 01:00:11,747
to engage with other professionals and bounce ideas off each other.

723
01:00:12,687 --> 01:00:13,187
Yeah, it's nice.

724
01:00:13,867 --> 01:00:14,947
One, it's just funny.

725
01:00:15,027 --> 01:00:18,087
I'll talk to prospects who will reach out

726
01:00:18,087 --> 01:00:19,167
about maybe working with us.

727
01:00:19,227 --> 01:00:20,507
It's like, hey, I really want a financial planner

728
01:00:20,507 --> 01:00:23,827
who understands Bitcoin and is also a good CFP.

729
01:00:24,447 --> 01:00:25,687
It's like, well, hey, there's like,

730
01:00:26,807 --> 01:00:28,447
as far as I'm aware, there's like seven of us

731
01:00:28,447 --> 01:00:29,727
and I'm friends with all of them.

732
01:00:29,847 --> 01:00:31,107
And I would love for you to talk with them.

733
01:00:31,667 --> 01:00:33,947
And so it's nice to have people in this space

734
01:00:33,947 --> 01:00:36,227
that I know and trust and consider friends

735
01:00:36,227 --> 01:00:40,287
and also value their work.

736
01:00:41,167 --> 01:00:42,707
So it's nice to have that.

737
01:00:42,787 --> 01:00:43,987
It's also, it's good to,

738
01:00:44,987 --> 01:00:46,627
we don't want to be a,

739
01:00:46,627 --> 01:00:52,347
well it's nice to have people you can go to to know that you're not crazy but also i think we do

740
01:00:52,347 --> 01:00:57,247
that that group does a good job of not being an echo chamber there is a place of challenging

741
01:00:57,247 --> 01:01:03,667
um and also just having a think tank like there's constantly stuff evolving in the bitcoin landscape

742
01:01:03,667 --> 01:01:08,547
and having a group of people that view these things through different lenses like there's

743
01:01:08,547 --> 01:01:15,567
people in there who view uh a lot more in depth of the compliance or the uh the tax planning side

744
01:01:15,567 --> 01:01:20,847
of things or the technical like holding Bitcoin or, Hey, I've been looking at Bitcoin mining,

745
01:01:21,007 --> 01:01:25,867
all these areas that we can approach and have conversations around versus just me. I can think

746
01:01:25,867 --> 01:01:32,227
through this asset from one perspective. So super helpful again, from a keeping me sharp on a

747
01:01:32,227 --> 01:01:38,467
technical side from a encouragement to like, I'm not, I don't think I'm crazy, but then also not

748
01:01:38,467 --> 01:01:43,327
get sucked in. It's not like a bunch of people who are just like self-congratulating each other.

749
01:01:43,327 --> 01:01:44,807
and then we walk away feeling better.

750
01:01:44,947 --> 01:01:51,067
There is actual challenging and robust thought

751
01:01:51,067 --> 01:01:52,627
put in those conversations.

752
01:01:52,967 --> 01:01:53,987
So yeah, I really appreciate it.

753
01:01:56,567 --> 01:01:57,567
No, that's awesome.

754
01:01:57,747 --> 01:01:58,707
I certainly do too.

755
01:01:58,847 --> 01:02:01,087
My last question for you here, Jim,

756
01:02:01,087 --> 01:02:03,887
so sitting in the seat you do,

757
01:02:04,027 --> 01:02:06,007
if you're trying to see around corners,

758
01:02:06,227 --> 01:02:08,287
20, 30, 40 years in the future,

759
01:02:09,167 --> 01:02:10,607
just kind of opine on your thoughts

760
01:02:10,607 --> 01:02:12,667
on how you think Bitcoin is going to change

761
01:02:12,667 --> 01:02:14,427
or affect wealth management?

762
01:02:16,327 --> 01:02:16,567
Hmm.

763
01:02:19,287 --> 01:02:21,467
Man, from a time perspective, I have no idea.

764
01:02:21,727 --> 01:02:22,827
It is interesting to think

765
01:02:22,827 --> 01:02:28,187
through all of the impacts on financial planning,

766
01:02:28,567 --> 01:02:32,607
if money just kept its value over time,

767
01:02:32,787 --> 01:02:35,227
and if we didn't live in an inflationary environment,

768
01:02:35,967 --> 01:02:38,707
let's not even go to the deflationary side

769
01:02:38,707 --> 01:02:41,267
that Jeff Booth talks about in The Price of Tomorrow.

770
01:02:41,267 --> 01:02:48,167
Let's just say a non-inflationary environment or inflation was only a reflection on increased

771
01:02:48,167 --> 01:02:51,427
demand, not because of a increase in the dollars.

772
01:02:51,807 --> 01:02:52,027
Okay.

773
01:02:52,507 --> 01:02:54,307
That would change a lot of things.

774
01:02:54,507 --> 01:03:00,147
Like suddenly the amount of conversations we have around, Hey, Wyatt, I want to buy

775
01:03:00,147 --> 01:03:03,127
a house in the next 24 to 36 months.

776
01:03:03,487 --> 01:03:06,047
How do I save and or invest in that?

777
01:03:06,407 --> 01:03:08,427
That conversation becomes a lot less tricky.

778
01:03:08,827 --> 01:03:09,827
You remember trying to have that conversation?

779
01:03:09,827 --> 01:03:10,727
That was a hard conversation.

780
01:03:10,727 --> 01:03:15,347
remember that back in like 2021, like the town I live in, the average house increased in price

781
01:03:15,347 --> 01:03:23,087
by 30% in 2021. So someone comes to me and says, Hey Jim, I want to, uh, I want to buy a house next

782
01:03:23,087 --> 01:03:28,987
year. I need to say, like, how do I save for that? It's like, well, goodness. Like do you,

783
01:03:29,047 --> 01:03:34,547
if you, if you just keep it in cash, you just lost 30% of your purchasing power. If the house

784
01:03:34,547 --> 01:03:38,567
market does what it did again, if you put it in stocks and the stock market drops a lot,

785
01:03:38,567 --> 01:03:42,587
well, now you can buy less house as well. If you put in the bond market and interest rates go up

786
01:03:42,587 --> 01:03:46,907
and we have historical movements of interest rates going up, then what happens? Well, what happens if

787
01:03:46,907 --> 01:03:50,227
we just have a sound money? And maybe a lot of people moved our town from California. So the

788
01:03:50,227 --> 01:03:57,847
housing market does have pressure on it. So it increases by 4%. But our population didn't grow

789
01:03:57,847 --> 01:04:03,447
by 30% that year. The average house went by 30% because of the increase of dollars. So the

790
01:04:03,447 --> 01:04:09,107
implications of having a healthy money on how we view short-term and even long-term like okay

791
01:04:09,107 --> 01:04:15,927
i need to spend a hundred thousand dollars per year from when i retire and i'm going to retire

792
01:04:15,927 --> 01:04:21,367
at 70 and i'm going to live till probably 90 like okay that's 20 years i will need two million

793
01:04:21,367 --> 01:04:27,847
dollars and let's pretend inflation doesn't exist like okay well monte carlos became a lot

794
01:04:27,847 --> 01:04:32,167
simpler and we're not trying to plug in my goodness have you have you looked at like the

795
01:04:32,167 --> 01:04:36,547
default settings for Monte Carlo simulations on these things like the inflationary rates and stuff.

796
01:04:36,647 --> 01:04:42,607
It's scary. All the guesses we're making. So when this will happen, 20, 30 years, 40 years,

797
01:04:42,667 --> 01:04:49,147
how this will impact financial planning. I don't know, but, um, where I hope it ends up with having

798
01:04:49,147 --> 01:04:55,427
a healthy money and not living in this like roulette of inflation, stagflation, maybe deflation,

799
01:04:55,427 --> 01:05:00,067
but not deflation because of like technological advances, but deflation because of like,

800
01:05:00,067 --> 01:05:07,907
there's zero hope in the world in a sense um then uh uh that would that would drastically change

801
01:05:07,907 --> 01:05:12,687
planning it wouldn't do away with our job but it would make a lot make a lot of things easier

802
01:05:12,687 --> 01:05:17,207
unless guessing about what's house what houses are going to do in the next eight months that's

803
01:05:17,207 --> 01:05:23,107
good i i hope that happens we shouldn't have to invest to do everything in life all right well

804
01:05:23,107 --> 01:05:27,247
this has been great jim i don't want to take too much for your time so i really appreciate you

805
01:05:27,247 --> 01:05:33,847
coming on. Maybe just give everyone a quick handoff of, you know, if they wanted to work with

806
01:05:33,847 --> 01:05:38,867
you or maybe even more importantly, if they're listening and they want to come work for you,

807
01:05:39,287 --> 01:05:44,647
where can they, where can they find you? You can go to a job monster or indeed. I'm just kidding.

808
01:05:47,147 --> 01:05:53,947
No, our website, it's intentional living FP as in financial planning. So intentionallivingfp.com

809
01:05:53,947 --> 01:05:56,647
our calendars on there for 15 minutes.

810
01:05:56,647 --> 01:05:59,167
If you have questions about working with us

811
01:05:59,167 --> 01:06:01,007
or working for us one day or something like that,

812
01:06:01,447 --> 01:06:02,627
more than happy to have a conversation.

813
01:06:02,787 --> 01:06:04,047
Or if it's like, hey, Jim,

814
01:06:04,087 --> 01:06:06,287
I have two questions about X, Y, Z.

815
01:06:06,387 --> 01:06:07,087
If I could just have someone

816
01:06:07,087 --> 01:06:08,267
to talk through these questions with,

817
01:06:08,467 --> 01:06:09,307
that's all I need.

818
01:06:09,827 --> 01:06:10,467
Throw a title on there.

819
01:06:10,547 --> 01:06:12,667
I'm more than happy to try to address those

820
01:06:12,667 --> 01:06:13,387
in the best way I can.

821
01:06:14,067 --> 01:06:14,987
Well, Jim, you're the man.

822
01:06:15,107 --> 01:06:16,367
Thank you so much for coming up.

823
01:06:16,447 --> 01:06:17,307
We really appreciate it.

824
01:06:18,147 --> 01:06:18,827
Yeah, thanks, fellas.

825
01:06:23,947 --> 01:06:26,087
We appreciate you joining us.

826
01:06:26,267 --> 01:06:31,127
If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin financial services, hit subscribe, leave a

827
01:06:31,127 --> 01:06:35,827
review, sign up for a newsletter, and most importantly, share this with someone in your

828
01:06:35,827 --> 01:06:37,867
network who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice.

829
01:06:38,327 --> 01:06:43,087
The more professionals we reach, the stronger the ecosystem becomes, and our clients are

830
01:06:43,087 --> 01:06:43,567
better served.

831
01:06:44,087 --> 01:06:44,507
Stay sharp.

832
01:06:44,867 --> 01:06:45,327
Stay sovereign.

833
01:06:45,847 --> 01:06:46,647
Keep leading from the front.

834
01:06:53,947 --> 01:07:23,927
Thank you.