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Versus Bitcoin, you can sell a billion dollar position on a Saturday, and that is super useful for the loan products or the outstanding loans become very tradable, as we saw with the lead and securitization, because what they're backed by is very tradable.

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And so you can always look at the market, the truth machine, and say, what is this thing worth?

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And there's always an answer to that question.

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Bitcoin is a currency on the Internet.

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If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go.

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It's going to outperform everything.

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Bitcoin could eventually be worthless.

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Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.

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Bitcoin hitting a new high.

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It really has reached escape velocity.

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There is no second best.

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Who cares about Bitcoin?

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It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.

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Antisocial.

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Bitcoin is the real deal.

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Stupid.

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Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

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Immoral.

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It's going up forever, Lauren.

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Fix the money.

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Fix the world.

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We'll be right back.

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Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets professional services.

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We explore how to build a financial system within the principles, values, and ethos of Bitcoin.

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Today, we're joined by Scott Marmel, Managing Director at Capital B Advisory.

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Let's get started.

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all right welcome back to another episode of the bitcoin for financial services podcast i'm back

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i know i took a look i went into hibernation i'm still in hibernation but i poked my head up

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uh for today because i had to be on with scott marmel um to make sure i was part of this

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conversation didn't let Wyatt have all the fun during tax season. So like I said, today we've

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got Scott Marmall on. He is the founder and managing director of Capital B Advisory and is

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ex-investment banker from Wall Street and is, you know, plowing a like new path in the Bitcoin

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space that really no one else is going down. So I'm very excited for this conversation.

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Scott, thank you so much for taking the time today.

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Thanks for having me.

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yeah all right why you're more in the finance world right i'm in boring tax and accounting

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so i'm gonna let you lead and i'm gonna learn and and we can kind of play the roles of uh you're the

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smart guy asking questions i'm the i'm the guy in the audience that asked the question that everyone

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is thinking but no one's uh brave enough to ask so yeah so god thanks so much for coming on and

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it's a pleasure to have you back to our nose get a little little lovely the riverside studio

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know um and this is actually the the podcast format i've been suggesting for a while now so i'm happy

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we're finally implementing it um regardless uh scott i'm stoked to have you on just because i feel

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like interviewing folks like you see your exact reason why jordan and i'm you start this pod

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as you you know kind of mentioned in the intro you're doing something very interesting

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kind of paving the way for, you know, M&A advisory, capital advisory in the Bitcoin space.

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I wanted to get into that, but before we do, let's fight a little bit with your background.

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You know, you got a lot of experience in Trattify. What was it like being the covert

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Bitcoin agent on the inside? What do your colleagues think of Bitcoin? What do these

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firms today think of Bitcoin? Do you think they're the perception? You know, we hear a lot of

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media and hype about Wall Street's adopting Bitcoin, big institutions are getting into

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Bitcoin. Is it actually real? Yeah, I'm glad you asked. So I'll start a little bit with the

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background and I can tell you some of the conversations along that career arc, but

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always have sat around the M&A deal table, whether that's raising capital for a privately held

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business to do a dividend or acquire a competitor or a majority sale. So always in the sort of

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private markets M&A advisory space, I've also sat in the investing role. So just moving to the other

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side of the deal table at a private equity fund and done this work across a bunch of different

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industry sectors, healthcare services, tech-enabled business services, software, industrials,

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consumer retail franchises. And all along the way, you know, a nights and weekends studier,

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enjoyer of Bitcoin lore. And, you know, it probably took a couple of years into my career

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to start kind of talking about Bitcoin out loud at work. But for the entire decade that I did that,

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folks almost entirely dismissed it. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of commentary around

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Bitcoin and Wall Street being here, sort of investing in this space, I would say,

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you know, I'll set aside the public markets activity with the Bitcoin treasury companies,

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because I think a lot of that is retail driven. And I'll just focus on like the institutional

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investing, which is things like, you know, Ledin successfully, you know, running a syndication of

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their Bitcoin backed loans. These headlines are exciting. And they're obviously big because it's

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an institution or a bunch of institutions in a syndication taking on sort of exposure to the

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Bitcoin asset class, except that we all know that the Bitcoin backed loans product is zero loss,

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like it's zero risk for the lender. And so, yes, it's exciting that something like that has

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happened. But at the same time, it doesn't to me say that institutions are taking principal or

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equity risk on the Bitcoin asset class. And even when they're lending against it, they want,

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you know, a liquidation right at 85% loan to value. That's a structure that means they don't

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really care what the collateral is because they're going to sell it. What I would like to see and what

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I started my firm in order to hope to bring to market is institutional finance taking long

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positions in Bitcoin backed companies, in companies building products and services on this category,

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and in the equity of businesses that hold Bitcoin in their balance sheet.

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So that's the thesis around CBA.

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And I guess I would say we have a lot of work left to do to bring that to bear.

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There's been a lot of positive momentum.

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But Wall Street taking zero lost positions against my Bitcoin isn't the win I think it is yet.

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00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:12,620
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00:07:12,620 --> 00:07:18,460
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yum and that's a shame journal i'll bring you in here a second but i specifically wanted one of

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the things i want to talk to you about was this lead in bond deal um you know um sort of part of

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credit fund tax partners you know we're we're raising capital to be a liquidity provider for

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your bitcoin collateralized loans um so this is a space i've been you know pretty deep in for the

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six plus months we were chatting about this a little bit in our bss um group chat i've been

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i haven't done like a super deep dive into it but i've been surprised on the lack of information i've

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been able to find on this deal everything i've come across is press releases how do you think

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mechanically they got this done i think so i've been studying the um the hero's journey that is

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capital intensive businesses like Bitcoin backed loans from startup to mature business.

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And the way I have come to understand it is that you start out finding a forward flows agreement

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partner that will buy your placements whenever they come to be. So if I'm a brand new Bitcoin

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backed loans business, I partner with somebody with a fund or a high net worth individual.

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And as soon as I place a Bitcoin backed loan, I sell it off to them. Right. And so that moves the

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risk off the balance sheet and it reduces the capital intensity of a business like

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lead in or unchained or strikes loan business to where they don't have to hold all the loans

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themselves. They can just place them and then move them off. The next stage of that starts to look

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like a warehouse credit facility. And that's where I think a lot of the Bitcoin backed loans industry

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is today. So now you're moving from like one sort of trusted partnership to a little bit more of an

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institutionalized product. And then the final form of that is a syndication where you tranche the

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actual sort of security of it and you get it rated and then you can sell it in the open market and

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you can hire an investment bank to place that with their hedge fund and other institutional investor

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clients. And at the rated securities stage and a securitization, you also access insurance funds,

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And so they have a bunch of different maturities they're investing along, and they have a ton of capital because they are collecting premiums and then using those to manage the risks of paying out for what they're insuring.

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And that is the sort of final form of these businesses.

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And you've seen this take shape along personal credit in the sort of a firm, SEZL, afterpay type business.

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You've seen it in the home equity line of credit world.

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and now we're starting to see it in the Bitcoin world.

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I too have been disappointed.

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I can't get more intel on what the details are,

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but my strong hunch is that you first need to club together enough of these deals

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to go do whatever it was, $100 million or so for lead.

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And that scale means you can go talk to an investment bank

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and they can help you put it together and get it rated

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and then sell it to their sort of book of institutional investor clients.

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I think it's huge for the category. It's the starting gun, in my mind, for the compression on the pricing. So Bitcoin-backed loans to the consumer are 11%, 12%, 13% today. I think that the lender side is probably making SOFR plus $300 or $400. So there's already a really nice spread for the middleman, which I think should come down. I'm looking at you, Strike, Ledin, Unchained.

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But it's a race to the bottom because as soon as a private credit fund or an institutional insurance fund realizes that it's impossible to lose money on a Bitcoin-backed loan as long as it's managed correctly, they're going to say, okay, well, I'll take anything above treasuries.

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And so if that's SOFR plus $400 today, it should be SOFR plus $300 tomorrow, and the race to the bottom is beginning, getting into the securitization world means that that's going to start to accelerate.

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And I hope to see that because it means better service to the customers who are borrowing against their Bitcoin.

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was excited to see it as well. Obviously, I think it's bullish for the industry. You know, we're seeing this deepening of Bitcoin capital markets. Curious. So, you know, in that middle step, we've got some term sheets for, um, your warehouse facilities backed by, you know, the loans themselves as opposed to, you know, having a claim on the Bitcoin collateral.

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Do you think that's a slippery slope to go down?

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You start obfuscating too much paper between the end investor and the actual spot Bitcoin collateral.

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So it's really a derivative product then?

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I don't know if I would go that far, but it's kind of like a traditional ABL setup.

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And so they're collateralizing, the service originator is collateralizing this facility with loans they've originated as opposed to purchasing the claim directly, kind of like in that step one.

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You mentioned where you have more senior rights to the actual Bitcoin.

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I think as long as the accounting is clean there, it doesn't create the house of cards that it otherwise could.

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Um, but yes, if, if, if I'm that, uh, aggregator and I, and I finance, um, if I raise capital

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against a book of those loans and then don't, um, manage that liability asset match appropriately,

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then there could be some risk there.

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But ultimately, I mean, what, what's nice about this product is that it's backed by the

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hardest money in the world.

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And so it actually is a really easy product to make sense because the collateral is 24-7, super liquid, and you can always kind of settle up.

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And sometimes that's painful for the customer.

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But the point is that the lender can take pretty confident, low-risk positions in this because they know that their money can be kind of brought back if there's a market event that brings it to a place where the loan is now at risk.

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Yeah.

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I mean, we've seen that even on our client side when in fourth quarter last year, we were talking with a lot of small businesses, a lot of individuals who are getting into these loans.

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And, you know, the price is at 120 at that time and everyone was really bullish at that time.

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And I guess it seems pretty obvious that part of the reason for this extended drawdown was either people having to, you know, or they were getting liquidated, whereas maybe they didn't get into leverage prior to these loan products coming out.

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Right. So then they were getting liquidated because the price dropped all the way down to whatever it was, 62 or something.

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I assume that you would agree, Scott, that that has played a role in this, whether we

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call it a bear market or just downtrend over the course of the last quarter.

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Scott Cardani I think so.

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Yeah.

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I mean, look, I think about a lot of people.

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I talked to a lot of people about leverage, both in levering up the balance sheet of a

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business and levering up their personal balance sheet to bargain so Bitcoin to not sell it And in every case leverage is a tool And like any other tool it can be used for good or it can be used for bad or it can be negative to you I think about it like leverage is like a gun

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right? So you can use, you know, if you are an oppressed nation, a gun can allow you to

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sort of free your people and bring democracy to your country. At the same time, you can shoot

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your foot off. And both of those possibilities come from the tool of the gun. In the same way,

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leverage. Look, people taking out leverage on October 7th or whatever the cycle or the market

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high was at $126K Bitcoin, those folks are either liquidated or they size it appropriately and

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they've just had to add collateral to their loan and they're fine. And that is where the strategy

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around Bitcoin-backed loans from an individual perspective is very important. And so if you

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fancy yourself a financial engineer and you don't want to sell your Bitcoin, you need to do a lot

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of math to make sure that you're comfortable with the risk. And that risk is that we have a 50%

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drawdown. But if you started with 10% of your stack as a loan to value approach, then all you've

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had to do over the last six months is add collateral to your loan. And you're still

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totally fine. You still haven't sold any Bitcoin. And that's fine. And we know that over the long

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term, the borrow against your Bitcoin trade does work out pretty favorably. Now, will it in the

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future? Let's hope so. It certainly would make sense, right? There is an infinite amount of

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and there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoin.

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But it definitely requires time and attention

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and a conservative strategy

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to not end up on the wrong side of that trade.

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Yeah.

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Do we want to stay in the lead and stuff?

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Any other question on your side, Wyatt?

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I know it's kind of a rabbit hole.

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Yeah, it is a rabbit hole.

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It happens to be one of my favorites.

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I just have one more thing to say on it.

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Yeah, it's funny because, you know,

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From you my facility, it's like, everybody's always talking about position

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sizing, it's like how much of my portfolio should be, you know, Bitcoin.

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It's a nuanced conversation.

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Obviously everybody has different opinions on it and risk profiles, all that jazz.

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I think actually more fun conversation is like, you have a lot of interest

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with people doing, you know, this Mark Moss strategy, you know, continuously

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rolling over the lens.

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It's actually much more interesting conversations like position sizing the

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loan it's like well how much you rate coins that are you using you know how much is left over if

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you do need to top off collateral do you intend to roll this over how many periods you intend to

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roll it over you know there's different types of you know interest payment structures on these loans

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so i'm actually vibe code and you know this calculator just help clients you know see that

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through just from a more you know financial financial planner's perspective just because i

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i honestly i think it's a good strategy but i hate a lot of the or dislike strongly dislike a lot of

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the conversation around it and how people like pitch it or sell it to like the general

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call life.

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And it's like, okay, I like the gun analogy because it emphasizes the importance of what

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you're doing or the severity of what you're doing.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah, I think, yeah, doing that backtesting is really important.

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If you're going to borrow against the Bitcoin stack in a way that requires you to post more

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collateral or pay down debt if it gets margin called, then the sizing is everything. And the

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best way to do this math is to just take old Bitcoin price data and pretend, hey, what if it

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was January 1st, 2017, and I did a loan today? And if I did it based on the amount of Bitcoin,

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take a dollar amount, say how much Bitcoin would someone have had back then? And then how much of a

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loan would you do? And then roll that math forward and say, okay, would I have ever gotten margin

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called here and not had the collateral to make that call. And I think that when you run that math,

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it's like 10, 20% loan to value is plenty because 80% drawdowns mean that you're almost out of cash

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or out of Bitcoin being the cash in this case. And so it's super important. It is not a shortcut

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to Valhalla, but it does allow you to monetize some of your Bitcoin stack without selling it.

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And there's two pieces of that. There's the capital gains tax avoidance, but there's also

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the idea that if you don't sell Bitcoin, and then everybody else also doesn't sell Bitcoin,

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then are you helping bring about the hyper Bitcoinization faster? Versus if you say,

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okay, time to buy that car, buy that house, or put a down payment on a house, I'm going to sell

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some Bitcoin. Well, if you can borrow against it instead, that's whatever amount you didn't sell

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there is the amount that is now no longer for sale. And so you can help with the sort of supply

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constraint of Bitcoin growing by not selling your Bitcoin, but you still have to be conservative.

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And that starts with not spending more than you have.

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Well, I was just going to say, you know, something that I've been seeing in the news, again, as like someone who only follows financial markets from, you know, far, far away, is everything to do with the private credit, you know, narrative that's out there, I guess, that just sparked up, I guess, maybe one of the things that just sparked up, you know,

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I know it's been in the news, but it really got in the news, I don't know, second half of last week or something like that going into the weekend.

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I'm just curious, Scott, like, can you kind of give us an update on what your thoughts are on that overall just TradFi?

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It seems like a conundrum.

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And then also how you see Bitcoin fitting into the private credit.

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Because I think that's kind of what you're describing in some ways, how it fits into that narrative going forward, potentially.

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So, yeah, a lot of thoughts here is one.

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I have observed from the inside of one of these deals or of several of these deals, what the private credit private markets direct lender world looks like.

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And they are risky loans.

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So in a specific case, I'm thinking about a business that I got to look at the sort of underwriting for where they had, depending on how you do the math, they had nine to 11 times their EBITDA number in debt outstanding.

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And a lot of that through lenders like Blue Owl, Carlisle, HPS, these big names that you're now seeing in the headlines.

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that level of leverage is potentially arguably more than the business is worth.

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And so how is this possible?

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Well, one, they're lending in a way that doesn't have principal payment requirements.

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So it has either 1% or zero amortization.

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So if I borrow a gazillion dollars from Jordan and Wyatt and I have zero amortization,

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I only pay interest every year.

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And either there's a maturity date in five or seven years where I owe you the full principal, or maybe there's some sort of longer term approach. But in either case, from a year on year basis, all I'm paying is the interest. So it's light on the cash flow burden, which is great from a flexibility perspective, but also means that the lender has a meaningful portion of their principal outstanding for longer.

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versus if I borrow money on a straight five-year amortization,

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I pay back one-fifth of the money every year, including interest,

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then you're getting back more of your lent money faster.

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So just at its face, the low amortization structure of a lot of these private credit direct deals

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means that they're higher risk.

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And then from that perspective of how much debt these businesses are able to raise,

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well, nine or ten times total debt outstanding,

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means that the whole business is levered up.

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And that means that the interest expense alone can start to reflect as much as the full cash flow of the business.

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And so that's what we're starting to see is, look, if Carlisle, Blue Owl, HPS, Blackstone,

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whoever lent $100 million to a business with $10 million of EBITDA,

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or let's say it had $20 million of EBITDA, and now the market is softening,

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and now they only have 10 of EBITDA.

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Well, now they've gone from five times leverage to 10 times leverage, and that interest expense hasn't changed.

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And a lot of that interest expense is non-cash.

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And so that means that instead of paying the interest at the end of the year, it just gets added to the principal.

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So on top of not getting amortization payments, these lenders are sometimes not even getting a meaningful portion of the interest expenses being paid in kind.

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And so that total principal outstanding is growing, and the business might be deteriorating at the same time.

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You have these two trends that can be very painful.

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And I think the biggest thing is we're starting to see in private credit or in the private markets that a lot of businesses are feeling disruption via AI, via the job market, via the global economy and the macro sort of market headwinds.

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And that's slowing down earnings at the same time that interest expense is growing.

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And that means that some of these businesses are just not in a great spot.

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Now, look, I mean, private credit is a big category and there are a lot of dollars chasing those deals.

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I think that ultimately it'll probably all be fine.

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But it is really interesting to see just how aggressive that leverage is.

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And then for what I want to help people do with Capital B Advisory is I would love to find a privately held business owned by a Bitcoiner who is so bullish Bitcoin, like we all are,

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that they would like to take some of that private credit money and use it to put more Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

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Because I think that's a much better use of proceeds than, you know, a dividend recap to buy the owner a boat or an airplane or whatever else.

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And for the lender, it's a better credit because the Bitcoin becomes recourse for the loan because it stays within the business.

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Versus these dividend recaps, if it's an airplane or a boat, they don't stay within the business and it's actually not recourse for the loan.

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So on both sides, it's a net positive.

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You just have to find a scaled business owner crazy enough to take that trade.

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And so part of the work I'm doing at Capital B is to talk to folks that might want to do

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that alongside the traditional sort of M&A advisory work that is much more common and

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practical.

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Well, in that vein, Scott, naming up scrapping yet, I'm really wanting somebody to try it.

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And you're uniquely positioned to speak on the viability of this.

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But a couple of years ago, meanwhile, I was going to launch a product

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kind of fund fully denominated in Bitcoin.

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So they raised money in Bitcoin, they make loans in Bitcoin to businesses

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that will pay them back in Bitcoin.

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And they were talking about a 5% return, you know, for their investors.

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To me, while fully denominated in Bitcoin, everybody wants, you know,

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Bitcoin, Bitcoin yield.

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So it's like got some positive things going for it, but it feels very hard

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to identify companies that are capable of taking a loan to Bitcoin and paying it

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buying Bitcoin. Do you think anything like that has legs? Do you think we kind of have to baby

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step our way into something like that? I love the idea. I think that as long as I can borrow fiat,

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I'd rather borrow fiat. You borrow in the crappy money and you save in the good money.

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But I do think that there's, I've been talking about this with some folks. I think there's a

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whole marketplace that needs to develop, which is Bitcoin backed loans, reinsurance. So let's say

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I'll pick on Jordan. Let's say Jordan took on too much leverage in October. He has no more Bitcoin

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left and he's getting margin called. He's put all of his Bitcoin into that loan. He calls you and me

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and he says, hey guys, can you spot me some Bitcoin to keep my loan open? I need to post

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more collateral. I'm good for it. I will pay you out of the proceeds. We all know Bitcoin's going

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back up. It's just not there yet. Help me keep this loan open so I don't get liquidated. First

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of all, it's in my interest to help Jordan because I don't want him to be a forced seller because

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that's another seller of Bitcoin at the worst time. And if I can make some money doing that,

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that's a great trade. So, okay, Jordan, I say, yes, here's collateral to keep your loan open.

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You're going to pay me 1% a month. It's going to accrue. You're not going to pay it in cash.

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It's going to accrue. And then when we get to whatever milestone, date or price,

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we close your loan and you pay me what you,

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what I've accrued based in Bitcoin terms.

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So say you have a one Bitcoin, you have a 50% loan to value.

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One Bitcoin is the collateral and you need another Bitcoin to keep the loan

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open. And you know,

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Scott or Wyatt gives you that Bitcoin and charges you 1% a month and you need

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it for 12 months.

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Well then you pay 12% out of that total collateral and everybody's happy

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because you didn't lose all your Bitcoin.

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Because if you get liquid at an 85% loan to value, by the time you pay your taxes, there's nothing left. And Scott or Wyatt or whoever has made a nice interest on their Bitcoin in Bitcoin terms.

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So I think it's going to sound or look like loan sharks, but I think there should be a derivative market there where people who have mismanaged their capital and need to borrow Bitcoin to keep their Bitcoin-backed loans open, there is a logical sort of incentive for folks to help with that, and they can make a yield on their Bitcoin doing so.

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that's fascinating salt is the salt is doing something like this they have like the salt

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shield product i don't think it's quite structured the the same way but i like where your head's at

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and adding products on top of this absolutely yeah it'll be it'll be complicated because you

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would need to you need a bunch of sort of information exchange right like well hey you

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know jordan what else do you what other loans do you have outstanding and things like that but

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But I think it you know any product that passes that does this make sense for both parties test is eventually going to be built And in the world of you know AI and Bitcoiners building businesses it usually doesn take very long Yeah Well I glad you called out the taking loans in like that are Bitcoin denominated I was speaking with a mining company actually back

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at NABs in Dallas last year that basically was saying they were getting screwed because as the

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price was going up right they were in they were actually gonna have to pay more back because it

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was bitcoin denominated uh that they had to pay back at the you know for the balloon kind of thing

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so i think so it sounds like again smooth brain over here it sounds like always try to uh try to

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take loan out in dollars and have btc be the collateral um which makes a lot of sense i guess

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One video I was watching about the private credit funds of today, and, you know, especially in Blackstone, at least that was the case I was looking at, where people were trying to get out of those investments.

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They are, I guess they're backed by illiquid assets, right?

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They're backed by real estate assets in a lot of cases, at least in the case of Blackstone.

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So I guess talk through why Bitcoin makes a lot better sense in that world, because if you did need to liquidate, it's not you're going to try to sell a huge apartment building.

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You're just looking on a Saturday to sell how much ever Bitcoin needed to sell in the open market, right?

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Right. Yeah. I mean, I think Wyatt probably sees this all the time or understands this even better than I do.

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But if you think about just, OK, well, what is the loan backed by?

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Okay, if it's backed by real estate, then what's the real estate worth?

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Well, that is kind of anybody's guess and only verified every time the real estate trades.

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And so if you start to say, hey, I don't think the real estate's worth what we thought it was,

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and that loan is kind of deteriorating in quality, the way to settle the loan is to sell the real estate,

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which is a high friction, illiquid transaction.

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And if done in a hurry, a lot of value can leak out of that transaction.

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versus Bitcoin, you can sell a billion dollar position on a Saturday.

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And that is super useful for the loan products or the outstanding loans become very tradable,

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as we saw with the lead and securitization, because what they're backed by is very tradable.

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And so you can always look at the market, the truth machine, and say, what is this thing worth?

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And there's always an answer to that question versus when you look at a real estate loan and

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you say, what is this thing worth? The market, the truth machine only sounds off every time that

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real estate is valued. So it's just way better collateral for those sorts of things. And yeah,

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I think, will Blackstone realize that this cycle? I don't know. But I think we're all going to do

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our best to make sure that they hear about it. Absolutely. That's what I said, Scott. I want to

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get your thoughts on Bitcoin investment product design because I hear you. It's like,

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borrowing crappy money, saving a good money.

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But then, you know, I feel like if you follow that road long enough,

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we're never going to get to Bitcoin denominated yield products with like

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legitimate yield, not like wrapping your Bitcoin on some like shit coin

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blockchain and it like evaporates, you know, in 10 weeks later.

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But so how do you think we actually get to that point

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if we're not transacting more dollars?

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And I'll just kind of frame this to you where it's like, I get this question all the time.

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The only way I've found where legitimate Bitcoin and Bitcoin yield is generating if somebody is providing a useful business service that people want to pay for in Bitcoin and they're just passing on some of that return to their quote unquote investors.

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So if we're now transacting Bitcoin, how do we actually get there?

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Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. The only true forms of Bitcoin denominated yield that I'm aware of that passed my smell test for this is sustainable is coin joint coordination, taking a fee for being a liquidity provider to privacy transactions on Bitcoin on chain.

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And the other would be lightning routing. So layer two Bitcoin requires sort of liquidity channels. If you provide that liquidity, you can charge a fee for people transacting through your channels.

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In both cases, we're talking about low, low, low single digit interest.

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I have heard arguments that the lightning side of that can be higher if you have the velocity.

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So if your payment channels are being used almost constantly, maybe you're making mid single digit interest rates on your Bitcoin on an annualized basis.

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In both cases, they're highly technical.

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They're small markets and they require a hot wallet or sort of Bitcoin on chain in a hot wallet where the seed is connected to the Internet and that has risks associated with it.

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Your broader question around what what do we how do we get to Bitcoin, you know, denominated financial services and products?

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I think the reality is as long as you can borrow in dollars and spend them and people are willing to accept them, that's the better way to do this.

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And sorry, the better way to do this from someone trying to maximize the value that they hold on to, I think ethically, there's a much better way to do it, which is just use Bitcoin. But I think the way that comes to bear is people stop accepting fiat. And I think that that is, you know, feels like it's a long way away. Maybe it is, or maybe it happens overnight.

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Right. But you'll probably you've probably Jordan's probably started to see it in the in the sort of tax clients of small Bitcoin businesses that have just decided, hey, we're Bitcoin only.

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We don't accept fiat. And, you know, that isn't a meaningful portion of the economy today.

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But I think it just takes time. And then there's a snowball effect there.

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And when you see more of the economy move to we don't accept fiat, there's too much friction where we don't like it or we don't accept it ethically.

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that's where you start to see that trend evolve.

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And then you can start to underwrite equity and debt investments in a Bitcoin denominated world

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once the P&Ls of those businesses have moved all the way over to Bitcoin.

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So you've got to move revenue, cost of goods sold, SG&A,

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and get all the way to like a Bitcoin denominated P&L.

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And then you can start to denominate equity and debt investments in Bitcoin as well.

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Please fix, Jordan.

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No, it is interesting.

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I mean, well, you know, the meanwhile news that dropped sometime last year where they were the first to really push out a full set of financial statements,

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all denominated in Bitcoin, was a big step.

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Right now, what we're seeing is businesses are still, you know, they'll use someone like ZapRite.

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They'll give a preference there to, you know, pay some Bitcoin for basically a discount or frame it as fiat for a premium.

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but I think the real issue for a lot of business owners is the payroll still has to go out in

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dollars the suppliers still have to get paid out in dollars and so you end up having to manage

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you just have to manage it's always been difficult to manage cash well now you have to manage cash

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alongside bitcoin and and one of those at least is because the unit account is still a dollar

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it's perceived its volatility is all measured in dollars.

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And so, I mean, it's something we deal with on the accounting firm side.

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You know, a lot of clients will pay us in Bitcoin

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and we're having to figure that out.

387
00:36:46,254 --> 00:36:49,914
And then one last thing I would say is there's, you know,

388
00:36:50,674 --> 00:36:52,114
yes, there's hedging strategies,

389
00:36:52,114 --> 00:36:55,694
but are small businesses really, do they have the time

390
00:36:55,694 --> 00:37:01,694
or even the knowledge to adequately hedge a position on their balance sheet?

391
00:37:02,334 --> 00:37:04,074
The answer generally is no.

392
00:37:04,074 --> 00:37:08,514
I mean, if they can even just get me a clean balance sheet at year end, that's a win.

393
00:37:09,334 --> 00:37:16,894
So but that is something that we ran into with one of our larger clients even this week, where they're like, we have no hedging strategy.

394
00:37:16,894 --> 00:37:21,714
And most of our balance sheet is in Bitcoin and all of their customers pay them in Bitcoin.

395
00:37:22,274 --> 00:37:26,494
And but all their liabilities are still almost all of them are still denominated in dollars.

396
00:37:26,814 --> 00:37:34,054
So figuring out a hedging strategy, Scott, we actually might talk offline about that because, you know, generally speaking at accounting firms.

397
00:37:34,074 --> 00:37:39,374
That's not something we offer, but I'm sure that's something that you know a lot about.

398
00:37:39,954 --> 00:37:41,314
Well, I think about it like this.

399
00:37:41,874 --> 00:37:53,754
If you had a, maybe not an employer, but a prospective client in either of y'all's cases that was saying, hey, I want to hire you to do some work for our firm.

400
00:37:54,254 --> 00:37:55,914
It's going to be over the next 10 years.

401
00:37:55,974 --> 00:37:56,994
You're going to do this every year.

402
00:37:57,434 --> 00:37:59,674
I'll pay you one Bitcoin each year.

403
00:37:59,674 --> 00:38:04,474
wouldn't you be pretty skeptical that they're going to pay you in years eight nine and ten

404
00:38:04,474 --> 00:38:09,534
because because the the math if you're bullish bitcoin is that they're going to be paying you

405
00:38:09,534 --> 00:38:14,374
like millions of dollars in the last years of your contract arrangement and they say okay and

406
00:38:14,374 --> 00:38:18,014
so the only way they could give you confidence that that was going to be true is that they'd say

407
00:38:18,014 --> 00:38:23,494
well look no our customers our revenue is also denominated in bitcoin and we expect it not to

408
00:38:23,494 --> 00:38:27,994
change as the value of bitcoin goes up that's a very unique business i mean the really the only

409
00:38:27,994 --> 00:38:29,494
one that comes to mind that even is

410
00:38:29,674 --> 00:38:37,434
close to sniffing that business model wise is bitcoin mining and so i think it's in this phase

411
00:38:37,434 --> 00:38:43,274
this very short period of history where we have dollars and bitcoin uh it's just really hard to

412
00:38:43,274 --> 00:38:48,474
price like you know asset long-term assets and liabilities in one or or the other currency right

413
00:38:48,474 --> 00:38:51,994
because in fiat you have the same problem which is if i say i'm never going to give you a raise

414
00:38:51,994 --> 00:38:56,794
in the next 10 years you're saying no way that's not a good deal either and so the problem the

415
00:38:56,794 --> 00:38:58,394
The problem is that the money is broken.

416
00:38:59,314 --> 00:39:02,374
And unfortunately, that is a thing that Bitcoin solves, but it does it slowly.

417
00:39:03,174 --> 00:39:08,574
And so in the meantime, it's hard to say that a business is fully on a Bitcoin basis.

418
00:39:08,754 --> 00:39:10,354
Like, meanwhile, P&L was very cool.

419
00:39:10,674 --> 00:39:15,734
But a lot of those assets and liabilities and revenues and expenses are still fiat denominated,

420
00:39:15,734 --> 00:39:21,314
meaning that if you fast forward 10 years, if the price of Bitcoin has changed, so too will their P&L.

421
00:39:21,514 --> 00:39:24,854
Like, they wouldn't have, oh, we made one Bitcoin this year.

422
00:39:24,894 --> 00:39:26,634
We're going to make one Bitcoin 10 years from now.

423
00:39:26,794 --> 00:39:30,694
Well, only if you expand the value you create meaningfully over the next 10 years.

424
00:39:33,474 --> 00:39:36,574
Scott, I'm curious in your opinion on this.

425
00:39:36,634 --> 00:39:37,274
This is your question.

426
00:39:37,374 --> 00:39:38,854
Yeah, I agree with this too.

427
00:39:40,354 --> 00:39:43,894
Avenues here, you mentioned a day of Bitcoin, Bitcoin yield.

428
00:39:44,294 --> 00:39:53,514
One I have seen is, you know, if you had a currently financial, you know, buying spot, shorting futures, there are a couple of funds that do this.

429
00:39:53,514 --> 00:39:59,094
the funds i know that do this are funds of funds and they're like you know we do due diligence on

430
00:39:59,094 --> 00:40:03,074
these other you know fund managers are actually deploying the strategy you've been around the blog

431
00:40:03,074 --> 00:40:08,454
you know i talk about people in the space i haven't met any of these funds that actually do the work

432
00:40:08,454 --> 00:40:14,354
have you do you think this is a viable legitimate strategy that has you know long-term stability

433
00:40:14,354 --> 00:40:23,254
i i have actually i do i work i work with one um with one bitcoin mining focused business that

434
00:40:23,254 --> 00:40:28,254
the CFO of which is involved in his own separate business,

435
00:40:28,254 --> 00:40:31,254
which is a hedge fund that's sort of farming that perpetual,

436
00:40:32,194 --> 00:40:35,534
perpetual swap spread that you're describing.

437
00:40:35,994 --> 00:40:40,194
And I think that it makes sense in this,

438
00:40:40,414 --> 00:40:44,854
in the fact that there's like disjointed markets and pockets of liquidity that

439
00:40:44,854 --> 00:40:47,874
make some alpha exist there.

440
00:40:49,234 --> 00:40:53,034
I think the actual mechanics of it is it's happening on hyper liquid.

441
00:40:53,254 --> 00:40:58,354
which to me, you know, gives me a lot of pause as far as the sustainability of it.

442
00:40:58,514 --> 00:41:04,194
And then just more broadly, I would say like, if there's meaningful alpha in some sort of risk-free trade,

443
00:41:04,734 --> 00:41:09,534
the market is very good at pushing that out.

444
00:41:09,534 --> 00:41:13,614
Because if, let's say the market is just the three of us,

445
00:41:13,654 --> 00:41:17,334
and I realize that there's a nice arbitrage in lightning routing,

446
00:41:17,574 --> 00:41:22,514
and I'm making 20% on my money every 12 months.

447
00:41:22,514 --> 00:41:26,874
well you guys are going to start doing lightning routing too and then you're going to cut the price

448
00:41:26,874 --> 00:41:31,874
down and then my yield's going to come down and so i think in the same like in deeply liquid

449
00:41:31,874 --> 00:41:36,714
financial markets these things happen really fast so yeah i think there's a uh there's a

450
00:41:36,714 --> 00:41:47,194
a yield trade in um in in that sort of spot versus futures market right now um it's probably like 12

451
00:41:47,194 --> 00:41:53,954
percent if i had to guess on an annualized basis depending on who's doing it and how but you got

452
00:41:53,954 --> 00:41:58,174
to think about it like well do you want to be kind of risk-free at 12 or do you want to be long

453
00:41:58,174 --> 00:42:03,734
bitcoin at 50 keger right and so to me these these strategies are interesting if you're forced to

454
00:42:03,734 --> 00:42:10,174
hold cash and you need to sort of make that uh recurring income or sort of yield but if you

455
00:42:10,174 --> 00:42:14,374
actually want to like make real investments for the long term yeah you can't beat bitcoin and

456
00:42:14,374 --> 00:42:19,894
that's still true even against those yield trades. Well, I was going to ask you, Scott,

457
00:42:20,094 --> 00:42:24,534
you know, so you're having a lot of these conversations with either high net worth or

458
00:42:24,534 --> 00:42:30,574
people on Wall Street. How do you come back? Because for the longest time, there was just

459
00:42:30,574 --> 00:42:37,214
this narrative of, well, Bitcoin never goes down over the course of a four year or five year span,

460
00:42:37,334 --> 00:42:42,454
right? And I think I saw something even yesterday or maybe over the weekend that was,

461
00:42:42,454 --> 00:42:46,694
that basically said that trend is actually breaking down.

462
00:42:47,434 --> 00:42:47,954
Right.

463
00:42:48,074 --> 00:42:49,014
And so I'm curious.

464
00:42:49,294 --> 00:42:50,794
I'm just curious your thoughts.

465
00:42:51,674 --> 00:42:54,114
You know, glass half full kind of says,

466
00:42:54,114 --> 00:42:55,414
well, that means we have a lot.

467
00:42:55,654 --> 00:42:57,694
We have a lot of ways to run up from here.

468
00:42:58,554 --> 00:43:01,534
But maybe you're hearing from people on Wall Street

469
00:43:01,534 --> 00:43:03,294
that are like, well, I'm just bearish.

470
00:43:03,894 --> 00:43:06,854
Maybe everything right now, even gold,

471
00:43:06,854 --> 00:43:07,514
you know, even gold,

472
00:43:07,614 --> 00:43:10,054
we've seen some crazy action in the last few days.

473
00:43:10,054 --> 00:43:18,774
I'm just curious how you normally kind of come back to someone saying, well, that thesis seems to be breaking down.

474
00:43:19,714 --> 00:43:20,694
What do I do?

475
00:43:21,454 --> 00:43:28,374
Yeah, I think the Bitcoiner response to this has been, you know, zoom out.

476
00:43:28,374 --> 00:43:29,634
And that's fine.

477
00:43:30,274 --> 00:43:37,274
But at a certain point, if we have to keep zooming out to the first five or six years of Bitcoin, then we're not talking about a sustainable return anymore.

478
00:43:37,274 --> 00:43:40,154
We're talking about just you either had to be early or you were wrong.

479
00:43:40,774 --> 00:43:49,114
And so, you know, Bitcoin's CAGR right now on a five year basis is underwhelming, but still good.

480
00:43:49,874 --> 00:44:12,241
Maybe it 10 percent I not sure exactly on the day that it up 30 or 40 percent over the past five years But if we get to September of this year our our comp the five CAGR is the 65K high of 2021 And so if we at 70K this September then the narrative that you have a really nice five

481
00:44:12,661 --> 00:44:19,581
even gross return, let alone CAGR for this asset class, will need some reconstruction. And my

482
00:44:19,581 --> 00:44:26,701
belief is that while it would be a healthy identity crisis for Bitcoiners to sort of,

483
00:44:26,701 --> 00:44:32,041
you know, stare in their reflection in the pond and make a better case for why freedom money matters,

484
00:44:32,081 --> 00:44:37,941
regardless of the returns. My stronger expectation is we'll never have to do that because we'll laugh

485
00:44:37,941 --> 00:44:43,761
in September when we look back at the CAGR and us being worried about it right now. But Bitcoin has

486
00:44:43,761 --> 00:44:51,141
to sort of shake everybody out first. And it feels like that's almost complete. And so, you know,

487
00:44:51,141 --> 00:44:58,381
I love the joke of like, whatever the funniest and most painful case for Bitcoin is what's going to happen.

488
00:44:58,641 --> 00:45:04,621
And for that, I think for everybody, that was 50% drawdown from 126K.

489
00:45:04,861 --> 00:45:09,741
And then everyone capitulates in the middle of a new war.

490
00:45:09,981 --> 00:45:12,621
And then we just go up only for six months.

491
00:45:12,661 --> 00:45:18,241
And then you look back in September and go, wow, I don't know what I was worried about because now Bitcoin's 600K.

492
00:45:18,241 --> 00:45:26,801
I was joking with some folks in our local Bitcoin Charlotte community the other day, 2% a day for 100 days puts us at 600K.

493
00:45:27,421 --> 00:45:31,121
And when I said it, we went on a 4 or 5 day, 2% a day run.

494
00:45:31,381 --> 00:45:34,161
And so it's a lot more possible than you realize.

495
00:45:34,301 --> 00:45:36,721
It's going to happen when you least expect it.

496
00:45:37,361 --> 00:45:41,961
But yes, I think there's a little bit of weakness in the store value narrative right now.

497
00:45:42,241 --> 00:45:46,161
Just like there was at 15K after FTX collapsed.

498
00:45:46,161 --> 00:45:57,521
This time we're doing war, but it's just as bad of a macro environment, more broadly, worse than it was for Bitcoin when FTX collapsed.

499
00:45:57,801 --> 00:46:01,221
Now, we had a worse sort of crypto-specific market narrative then.

500
00:46:01,821 --> 00:46:08,161
But in both cases, it looked like a really good time to buy in a very short amount of hindsight a few months later.

501
00:46:11,881 --> 00:46:13,941
Your wealth deserves intention.

502
00:46:13,941 --> 00:46:19,861
Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm built to help our clients find balance between money and meaning.

503
00:46:20,261 --> 00:46:23,601
We integrate sound money strategies across four distinct personalized services.

504
00:46:24,001 --> 00:46:29,521
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505
00:46:29,961 --> 00:46:34,021
Your prosperity, your purpose, intentionally guided at Basilic Financial.

506
00:46:34,461 --> 00:46:37,721
Visit our website at basilic.io to schedule a free consultation.

507
00:46:40,321 --> 00:46:40,881
Yum.

508
00:46:40,881 --> 00:46:46,641
okay we're we're coming up on time i just want to make sure are you good to go just a little over

509
00:46:46,641 --> 00:46:53,281
yeah sure all right cool i know one question that i've got all right perfect i know one question i've

510
00:46:53,281 --> 00:46:59,421
got is about the whole like uh it was jane street right the jane street slam is that yeah is that

511
00:46:59,421 --> 00:47:05,981
like is that just conspiracy or is uh is there any truth to to that story that dropped i guess

512
00:47:05,981 --> 00:47:12,101
at this point a week or two ago i think that the you can kind of look at the price chart and see

513
00:47:12,101 --> 00:47:20,501
like a 10 a.m slam so like i think the short term i think there was uh some gamesmanship being played

514
00:47:20,501 --> 00:47:26,641
on like the 15 minute candle right and and that doesn't shock me or it shouldn't shock anyone like

515
00:47:26,641 --> 00:47:33,801
financial engineer is going to financial engineer the part that i have not seen evidence for that

516
00:47:33,801 --> 00:47:39,221
seems to be a popular conspiracy theory is that like Jane Street is the reason we're not at 150k.

517
00:47:41,081 --> 00:47:48,041
Bitcoin is like a beach ball. The harder you hold it under the water, the more explosively

518
00:47:48,041 --> 00:47:54,461
it returns to the surface. And if you look at the alleged Jane Street slam, what you see is like

519
00:47:54,461 --> 00:48:00,301
they're able to push the price down for a few minutes each day. So in my opinion, a few minutes

520
00:48:00,301 --> 00:48:05,601
each day was taking like billions of dollars of like one of the larger sort of hedge funds

521
00:48:05,601 --> 00:48:09,121
trading in this space, doing everything they could to manipulate the price.

522
00:48:09,121 --> 00:48:14,581
And they were able to manipulate it for a few minutes at a time to then argue that the

523
00:48:14,581 --> 00:48:21,001
same group or others have managed to suppress the price by 50 percent over five or six months

524
00:48:21,001 --> 00:48:28,041
just doesn't pass the smell test to me because you would need orders of magnitude more capital

525
00:48:28,041 --> 00:48:30,281
to manipulate the price at that scale.

526
00:48:30,901 --> 00:48:33,021
And I just don't, I think Bitcoin has outgrown

527
00:48:33,021 --> 00:48:36,241
any one entity or individual's ability

528
00:48:36,241 --> 00:48:37,841
to sort of manipulate the price like that

529
00:48:37,841 --> 00:48:38,781
on a long-term basis.

530
00:48:39,141 --> 00:48:42,241
But for sure, if you were selling Bitcoin at 10 a.m.

531
00:48:42,241 --> 00:48:46,141
or whatever, you can see it in the short-term price chart.

532
00:48:46,381 --> 00:48:49,161
But no, I think the reason we're at 70K

533
00:48:49,161 --> 00:48:50,961
is because we're doing like three or four wars

534
00:48:50,961 --> 00:48:53,701
and everything's bad and interest rates are too high

535
00:48:53,701 --> 00:48:55,841
and all the things we already know.

536
00:48:55,841 --> 00:49:07,561
It has a lot less to do with Sam Altman's, or not Sam Altman, Sam Bakeman Freed's former employer managing to manipulate the Bitcoin price to punish us for putting him in jail.

537
00:49:07,561 --> 00:49:25,201
I guess over time, if you're wiping traders out, right, if you're wiping out leverage consistently enough, I guess that money is transferring hands from, I guess if you're a trader, maybe you're not a long term holder.

538
00:49:25,201 --> 00:49:32,961
But I'm just curious if you do that over long enough and we see these like violent moves that I'm not an expert on.

539
00:49:33,041 --> 00:49:36,901
I just know that that wipes people out, right, or makes people a lot of money.

540
00:49:37,661 --> 00:49:46,921
And I'm just curious on if they were doing that and by way of wiping out those trades, those short-term trades, they were able to accumulate.

541
00:49:47,061 --> 00:49:53,201
And now I guess they were able to manipulate it broadly because they did it over a long time frame.

542
00:49:53,201 --> 00:50:03,961
frame. Yeah, perhaps. I guess, yeah, it's possible. I think that if folks are giving up on their

543
00:50:03,961 --> 00:50:08,661
Bitcoin strategy because Jane Street punished them at 10 a.m., then they were going to sell

544
00:50:08,661 --> 00:50:15,081
Bitcoin at the worst time ever anyway. And so whether that was when we ran to 150K and then

545
00:50:15,081 --> 00:50:22,761
crashed to 45 or then when we ran to 126 to 60, you could definitely argue that high frequency

546
00:50:22,761 --> 00:50:28,581
trading actually removes fall from an asset class. So does that mean that the up and the down

547
00:50:28,581 --> 00:50:34,101
got compressed the cycle? Perhaps. I think it's more just like it's happening on the 15 minute

548
00:50:34,101 --> 00:50:38,941
candle and then everybody just goes back to doing what they do. But look, if we're frustrated that

549
00:50:38,941 --> 00:50:44,601
Jane Street suppressed Bitcoin, then we need to buy more Bitcoin and do it harder. So that's on us

550
00:50:44,601 --> 00:50:49,761
to accumulate more. Because I know that I think when Michael Saylor buys Bitcoin, it's never

551
00:50:49,761 --> 00:50:54,041
trading again i know when i buy bitcoin it's never trading again and so if more of us are

552
00:50:54,041 --> 00:50:59,661
doing that then this thing does not care about jane street any longer um but yeah it's possible

553
00:50:59,661 --> 00:51:06,861
and scott i don't fully understand this market but there's some nuances to market making for

554
00:51:06,861 --> 00:51:12,081
ets with the authorized participants with jane street like involved in that business is that

555
00:51:12,081 --> 00:51:16,281
you're just kind of like some high level finance that most folks don't understand and so it's just

556
00:51:16,281 --> 00:51:22,421
easy to say they're manipulating the price i don't know i i've only read like the surface level sort

557
00:51:22,421 --> 00:51:27,581
of twitter review of this uh without actually even being on twitter uh so i'm not sure like

558
00:51:27,581 --> 00:51:32,861
the actual nuts and bolts mechanics of the strategy like i was talking about earlier these strategies

559
00:51:32,861 --> 00:51:38,001
whether it's like farming the yield or the spread between spot and future or whatever it is to me

560
00:51:38,001 --> 00:51:44,681
like in the age of the internet uh these alpha strategies last for like days if not you know

561
00:51:44,681 --> 00:51:49,261
weeks or months, but they never, never for very long. And so I usually don't make time to like

562
00:51:49,261 --> 00:51:52,321
study them closely because I'm like, oh, that's cool. Somebody's making some money, but it's not

563
00:51:52,321 --> 00:51:56,781
going to last. And then what scares me about like ever considering one of those strategies myself

564
00:51:56,781 --> 00:52:02,501
is that, you know, the last person taking that trade might actually lose all the return, like

565
00:52:02,501 --> 00:52:07,161
might have a commensurate loss for all the returns that were in the alpha strategy before.

566
00:52:07,421 --> 00:52:11,081
So like, you don't want to be the last one holding the bag on something like that.

567
00:52:11,081 --> 00:52:15,581
And so I just buy and hold Bitcoin for the long term and outperform most of these funds.

568
00:52:16,601 --> 00:52:19,781
But yeah, I guess you got to zoom out past five years now to make that claim.

569
00:52:22,181 --> 00:52:26,081
In our closing minutes here, I was hoping we could just kind of zoom out.

570
00:52:26,381 --> 00:52:29,341
You've done something that Jordan and I have done.

571
00:52:29,581 --> 00:52:33,281
You worked at a stratified industry and you applied Bitcoin to it.

572
00:52:33,321 --> 00:52:38,161
So I was just kind of wondering if you could get us some insight into what your journey at Capital B has been like,

573
00:52:38,161 --> 00:52:42,501
how you add most value to clients? Any learning so far that you could share with the audience?

574
00:52:43,241 --> 00:52:48,721
Yeah. So the thesis was that Bitcoiners are, well, we definitely think we're the smartest

575
00:52:48,721 --> 00:52:54,041
people in the room. In a lot of cases, we are. And so that's good news, Jordan.

576
00:52:54,621 --> 00:53:01,201
They own nice businesses. And so the thesis for me was, look, I really love M&A dealmaking. I love

577
00:53:01,201 --> 00:53:07,301
raising capital. I don't really like doing it for folks that don't understand Bitcoin. And so I

578
00:53:07,301 --> 00:53:13,021
launched Capital B Advisory to just take the M&A capital raising dealmaking skill set and apply it

579
00:53:13,021 --> 00:53:18,581
exclusively to businesses owned by Bitcoiners. And so my top of funnel is every business that

580
00:53:18,581 --> 00:53:23,221
is owned by a Bitcoiner. And the fun part of that is that it expands every day. People don't come

581
00:53:23,221 --> 00:53:27,781
to understand Bitcoin and then change their mind. And so that means that a lot of my prospects and

582
00:53:27,781 --> 00:53:32,401
clients are Bitcoin focused businesses. They have products or services built on the Bitcoin space,

583
00:53:32,401 --> 00:53:51,281
But also it's every other business in the world that is owned by a Bitcoiner. And that number increases every day as well. And so in both cases, you want an M&A, capital raising advisor, fractional CFO, or whatever the work scope in the finance world looks like to understand Bitcoin because that's what you understand.

584
00:53:51,281 --> 00:54:01,181
And to hire someone to do that sort of work that doesn't understand something as fundamental as Bitcoin is you just know outright that you're not going to get the best advice for your worldview.

585
00:54:01,281 --> 00:54:08,241
In the same way, you wouldn't have a physician do surgery on you that didn't agree with your worldview medically.

586
00:54:08,501 --> 00:54:18,961
If you didn't want to use a certain medicine or whatever it might be, and the physician you decide to have do the surgery is like, no, I exactly want to do it that way that you disagree with.

587
00:54:18,961 --> 00:54:21,061
Well, then you know you're not going to get the best service.

588
00:54:21,281 --> 00:54:33,241
In the same way, Bitcoin or mindset is an important sort of thing to filter for when you're getting advice, whether it's who does your taxes or whatever other sort of Bitcoin financial services product.

589
00:54:33,241 --> 00:54:39,861
And so the good news is that since I launched this in October, the market feedback has been a resounding, yes, this is needed.

590
00:54:40,481 --> 00:54:45,481
I don't think there are other sort of investment bankers that understand Bitcoin to this degree.

591
00:54:45,481 --> 00:54:50,241
not that I'm special or smart, but I just was lucky to be studying Bitcoin at the very same

592
00:54:50,241 --> 00:54:53,981
time that I was getting into my career in investment banking. And so I have a decade

593
00:54:53,981 --> 00:55:00,681
of running parallel in these two things that in many ways are exact opposites of each other.

594
00:55:00,841 --> 00:55:06,981
And so I can navigate the dealmaking, the fiat sort of private capital markets. But I also

595
00:55:06,981 --> 00:55:12,001
understand that the goal here is to just stack more Bitcoin and not lose it. And so that has

596
00:55:12,001 --> 00:55:17,681
been really fun. And if the goal was to talk about Bitcoin all day, every day with Bitcoiners,

597
00:55:17,781 --> 00:55:21,621
then mission accomplished. If the goal was to make money doing that, then I think mission

598
00:55:21,621 --> 00:55:27,901
accomplished too, but TBD, still early days. That's funny. Scott, you can be honest here.

599
00:55:28,041 --> 00:55:32,821
Did your wife make you leave your job and go into Bitcoin so that you'd stop talking to her

600
00:55:32,821 --> 00:55:38,441
about Bitcoin? So it's funny. I probably, I wouldn't say I would have done. That's what

601
00:55:38,441 --> 00:55:44,901
happen to why tonight. Yeah, I think I, you know, look, I leaving the investment banking world of

602
00:55:44,901 --> 00:55:52,361
W2 and bonus was something that required my wife's support because it is a massive shift in certainty

603
00:55:52,361 --> 00:55:58,421
of income. And I think that it took some warming up to the idea for both of us to contemplate

604
00:55:58,421 --> 00:56:02,841
entrepreneurship. And, and, you know, since I've done it, I've kind of made my goal to be as

605
00:56:02,841 --> 00:56:07,621
unemployable as possible. So I've really slammed the door shut behind myself. But I think she would

606
00:56:07,621 --> 00:56:13,401
tell you herself that this was the greatest career decision I ever could have made. And it's been

607
00:56:13,401 --> 00:56:20,481
incredibly rewarding. I'm so grateful. And now can say confidently that my time, and this is a

608
00:56:20,481 --> 00:56:25,601
phrase I stole from Rod Rowdy, who helps run Bitcoin Park in Nashville, my time, capital,

609
00:56:25,681 --> 00:56:30,881
and reputation are all in on Bitcoin. This is my life's work. This was my calling. And it has been

610
00:56:30,881 --> 00:56:38,041
incredible to make that shift. And so I think every business and client that works with Capital

611
00:56:38,041 --> 00:56:42,461
B Advisory is lucky in the sense that they get to work with someone who's just obsessed

612
00:56:42,461 --> 00:56:48,101
with deal making and with Bitcoin. And when those two things intersect, you get really good service

613
00:56:48,101 --> 00:56:54,721
out of me. Yeah, I love it, man. But behind all of us, you know, you have to have a strong wife

614
00:56:54,721 --> 00:57:00,161
that's helping in all the different ways. So that's awesome to hear. Well, you know,

615
00:57:00,161 --> 00:57:06,401
Give everyone who's listened today just hand off where can they find you if they own a business and they want to work with you.

616
00:57:07,301 --> 00:57:07,821
Yeah.

617
00:57:08,241 --> 00:57:08,761
Absolutely.

618
00:57:08,941 --> 00:57:09,101
Yeah.

619
00:57:09,221 --> 00:57:12,961
So CapitalBadvisory.com is the company website.

620
00:57:13,541 --> 00:57:16,501
You can find me on LinkedIn, Scott Marmel.

621
00:57:17,021 --> 00:57:20,281
I'm on NosterPrimal.net slash SuitCoiner.

622
00:57:21,101 --> 00:57:27,741
And not on Twitter, although I keep getting told that I should probably have a CBA Twitter account.

623
00:57:27,841 --> 00:57:28,661
So maybe coming soon.

624
00:57:28,661 --> 00:57:35,861
Perfect. All right, man. Well, thank you so much. This was awesome. This, this was honestly the

625
00:57:35,861 --> 00:57:41,241
conversation I didn't know that we all really needed. So I think you're probably finding that

626
00:57:41,241 --> 00:57:45,861
in, in your conversations a lot with clients. So really appreciate it. Why anything else on your

627
00:57:45,861 --> 00:57:49,301
side? Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on, man. Looking forward to seeing you in October.

628
00:57:50,021 --> 00:57:54,021
A lot of fun. Yeah. Thanks guys. Take care. All right. See you, Scott. All right. Bye.

629
00:57:58,661 --> 00:58:18,261
We appreciate you joining us. If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin and financial services, hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, and share this with someone in your network who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice. The more professionals we reach, the stronger this ecosystem becomes and our clients are better served. Stay sharp, stay sober, keep leading to the front.

630
00:58:28,661 --> 00:58:42,021
Transcription by ESO. Translation by —