1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 We're really encouraging businesses, just be profitable, store your money in Bitcoin, 2 00:00:05,540 --> 00:00:08,360 and just have a low time preference. 3 00:00:08,540 --> 00:00:11,260 Look five years down the road, 10 years down the road. 4 00:00:11,780 --> 00:00:17,140 You want to be operating a business that's providing something that's productive, 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,700 and then storing your time and energy in a better form of money. 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,860 Bitcoin is a currency on the internet. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,900 If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go. 8 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:28,140 It's going to outperform everything. 9 00:00:28,140 --> 00:00:29,820 Bitcoin can eventually be worthless. 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,700 Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin. 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,220 Bitcoin reached its highest price to date. 12 00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:35,860 Bitcoin hitting a new high. 13 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:37,680 It really has reached escape velocity. 14 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:38,820 There is no second best. 15 00:00:38,980 --> 00:00:40,060 Who cares about Bitcoin? 16 00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:42,500 It's the only secure database that's ever been invented. 17 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:43,540 Antisocial. 18 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:45,400 Bitcoin is the real deal. 19 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:45,980 Stupid. 20 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,260 Everything is bullish for Bitcoin. 21 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:48,920 Immoral. 22 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,620 It's going up forever, Lauren. 23 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:51,980 Fix the money. 24 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:53,340 Fix the world. 25 00:00:56,180 --> 00:00:57,420 White Rock is a registered investment advisor, 26 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:58,940 and the opinions expressed on the show are their own 27 00:00:58,940 --> 00:01:00,200 and do not reflect the opinions of the CILIC LLC. 28 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:01,980 Joining us as a CPA and the opinions expressed on the show 29 00:01:01,980 --> 00:01:03,460 are their own and do not reflect the opinions of trusted CPA 30 00:01:03,460 --> 00:01:04,200 or other affiliated firms. 31 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:05,900 Information presented is for educational purposes only 32 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:07,280 and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation 33 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:08,640 for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, 34 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:09,500 investments, or investment strategies. 35 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:10,800 Investments of all risk and almost otherwise stated 36 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:11,220 are not guaranteed. 37 00:01:11,380 --> 00:01:12,380 Information expressed does not take into account 38 00:01:12,380 --> 00:01:13,420 your specific situation or objectives 39 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:14,680 is not intended as a recommendation appropriate 40 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:15,160 for any individual. 41 00:01:15,340 --> 00:01:16,080 Listeners are encouraged to seek advice 42 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:17,420 from a qualified tax legal or investment advisor 43 00:01:17,420 --> 00:01:18,480 to determine whether any information presented 44 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,640 may be suitable for their specific situation. 45 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,080 Past performance is not indicative of future performance. 46 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:22,220 Any statements or opinions are subject to change 47 00:01:22,220 --> 00:01:22,560 without notice. 48 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:33,020 Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where some money means professional services. 49 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:38,740 We explore how to build a financial services industry within the principles, ethos, and values of Bitcoin. 50 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:48,320 Today, we're honored to be joined by Bitcoin for Financial Services Summit veteran and CEO of Sovereign, Brandon Capellas. 51 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:54,080 we dig into building a Bitcoin business. Let's get started. 52 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:03,040 All righty, welcome back to another episode of the Bitcoin for Financial Services podcast. 53 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,660 We've got Brandon Karpelis from Sovereign visiting with us today and talking about 54 00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:14,200 what he's been up to in the Bitcoin ecosystem. And this is our Christmas week episode. So 55 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,580 very excited for that. I know we're probably working today, maybe tomorrow, and then 56 00:02:19,580 --> 00:02:26,000 looking forward to maybe a very long holiday weekend. So Brandon, how's it going, man? It's 57 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,480 been a little while since we've talked. Awesome, man. Yeah, I think since the Financial Services 58 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:36,380 Summit actually was probably the last time we've formally talked other than some back and forth on 59 00:02:36,380 --> 00:02:42,720 emails and things like that. So looking forward to catching up. Absolutely. Wyatt, how are you 60 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:50,300 doing sir i'm good man like you said a big christmas week uh it's funny it's like this 61 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:58,180 combination of nobody works from like here till the end of the year but a lot of people want a 62 00:02:58,180 --> 00:03:04,820 lot of work done from here till the end of year so it's like a balancing that is always fun yes 63 00:03:04,820 --> 00:03:10,280 yeah this is the first first year of my life i'm gonna get the end of the year to actually enjoy 64 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:18,300 uh look at that in fiat land it was end of year quarter end and any deal that didn't get done 65 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:23,380 this year obviously got pushed in the next year and so that affects the numbers and so 66 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:28,740 you know always have the c-suite call in what's going on with this deal are we closing this year 67 00:03:28,740 --> 00:03:33,720 are we going to get it booked or what are we going to have to charge off blah blah blah and so 68 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,900 it's going to be nice and then and then of course you would need to get something done and there's 69 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:43,440 nobody around absolutely no one's work every single you go in the voip system every single 70 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:51,580 person unavailable on vacation and it's just like uh i'm i'm uh i'm glad i'm not gonna miss that 71 00:03:51,580 --> 00:03:58,720 this year so well it's a it's a great segue brandon i i actually i want to get into you have 72 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:04,100 an extensive background in fiat world i want you to talk to the audience about what that 73 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:10,340 looked like. And, uh, and then I'd love to get into, you know, what made you jump ship. Uh, 74 00:04:10,340 --> 00:04:13,720 and now you work in Bitcoin full time so we can get into that as well. 75 00:04:14,460 --> 00:04:21,880 Yeah. So without the full Epic saga, I spent almost two decades in fiat land and really, 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,480 as I started going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, just found it harder and harder to go into my 77 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:33,480 job every day and be doing something else that wasn't involved with Bitcoin. And specifically, 78 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:41,200 as I learned more and more about sort of the predatory nature of the fiat system and commercial 79 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:48,840 lending and creating money out of thin air and what that did to people that didn't understand 80 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:54,000 the system and weren't able to protect themselves against the system and insulate themselves against 81 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,620 the system. All the rich people understand the game and they're very good at playing it and 82 00:04:58,620 --> 00:05:08,340 they buy assets and they, they know market cycles and they know how to use debt well and, um, never 83 00:05:08,340 --> 00:05:14,520 pay it back. And that's something that I was watching business owners really struggle with. 84 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:23,020 And obviously the amount of money that was printed in 2020, 2021 for COVID. And then the subsequent 85 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:28,760 rate hike a relatively high you know rates only went up to like five and a half percent i think 86 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,780 was the peak maybe it was five and a quarter which is a very reasonable interest rate but it compared 87 00:05:34,780 --> 00:05:44,120 to zero or 0.25 basis points that it was a few months before that it just it relatively it was a 88 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:52,040 very high uh rate hike and a lot of businesses and people were over levered and had become accustomed 89 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,320 And some of them, yes, you should have understood what you were doing. 90 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:03,520 You should have some financial literacy around debt and interest rates and how levered your business is and all sorts of stuff like that. 91 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:06,340 But at the same time, they kind of just got accustomed to cheap money. 92 00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:10,080 And it was almost a decade of rates being down there. 93 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,320 And no one imagined the day when they would tick up even a little bit. 94 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:20,140 And so people maxed out leverage, spent as much as they could with debt and really got burned. 95 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:24,040 And a lot of them just don't even understand the system they were operating in. 96 00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:25,500 They just knew money was cheap. 97 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,280 Their banker would always give it to them. 98 00:06:27,420 --> 00:06:29,680 And that's how they kind of ran their business. 99 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:41,440 And I got to a point where I really wanted to go help educate businesses about this problem, help them understand it. 100 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,440 And the businesses I was dealing with were distressed businesses, troubled businesses. 101 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:55,780 and a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them were just kind of caught in the financial leverage gears of taking on too much debt, 102 00:06:55,780 --> 00:06:59,420 not understand what they were doing, low interest rate environment, etc. 103 00:06:59,780 --> 00:07:11,660 And then watching their input cost explode as they were grappling with supply chain shutdowns from all the COVID lockdowns 104 00:07:11,660 --> 00:07:17,180 And then all the money that was printed also led to a massive increase in the cost of everything. 105 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:22,500 And they just got burned and ultimately ended up on my desk. 106 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:24,140 And then we had to work them out. 107 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:34,460 And I think, you know, we had a couple turnaround success stories, but most of them were liquidations or business sales or the bank had to take a loss. 108 00:07:34,460 --> 00:07:41,080 And I just wanted to go out and help business owners figure this out. 109 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:57,360 And that's when I came across the opportunity at Sovereign. Our founder was assembling a team of consultants to basically go out and educate businesses about this problem, help explain Bitcoin to them. And I thought, what a great opportunity this was. 110 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:15,840 And then a few things unfolded over the next few months where something happened at my job where I just, it was kind of a sign from God of, hey, I think it's time to move on, time to take a step in this new direction. 111 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,840 Coupled with the fact that our founder was looking for some serious help running the company. 112 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,360 And it all kind of just coalesced in March of this year. 113 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,680 And I decided to take the leap, start helping to run Sovereign. 114 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:35,260 And over the course of the next few months after that, I've effectively, uh, been CEO 115 00:08:35,260 --> 00:08:42,180 and running the company with, um, uh, you know, sole decision maker, but with the help 116 00:08:42,180 --> 00:08:48,880 of a couple other guys who effectively make up the C-suite at our organization and have 117 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,760 been doing that probably for the past six months or so is in that sort of arrangement. 118 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,800 So a bit of a long-winded answer. 119 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:56,420 Apologies. 120 00:08:56,740 --> 00:08:59,680 But that is actually the abridged version. 121 00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:02,900 No, it's great, Matt. 122 00:09:02,940 --> 00:09:04,980 I noticed you left out HOA president. 123 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:06,400 Oh, yeah. 124 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:07,640 Well, that's on my resume. 125 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,500 That's first and foremost. 126 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:10,860 HOA president. 127 00:09:11,020 --> 00:09:15,020 And then I have 19 and a half years in traditional finance below that. 128 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:20,960 I think that background is very pertinent. 129 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,920 is obviously, you know, our podcast audience skews towards, you know, traditional kind of 130 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,200 finance land. We're trying to bring these folks into Bitcoin. So I think it's very important for 131 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:34,920 these folks to hear from, you know, guys like yourself who spent a lot of time in that world, 132 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:41,140 saw the light and you decided to do something to get out of it. And I think you're a perfect 133 00:09:41,140 --> 00:09:45,820 guest for us to have on because we really want to be almost kind of intentionally speaking to 134 00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:48,500 like the pre-Bitcoin businesses 135 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:50,360 in the financial services space 136 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,820 and help give them the tools 137 00:09:51,820 --> 00:09:54,540 to move into servicing Bitcoiners, 138 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:55,320 accepting Bitcoin. 139 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:56,740 Why don't you just kind of give us 140 00:09:56,740 --> 00:09:58,880 an overview of what Sovereign does? 141 00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:00,280 And then I kind of want to dig 142 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,780 into each of those individual pieces. 143 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,820 Yeah, so I like to say Sovereign 144 00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:06,900 has three different categories. 145 00:10:07,180 --> 00:10:08,640 We have the education category, 146 00:10:08,940 --> 00:10:10,360 the integration category, 147 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,260 and then the operational category. 148 00:10:12,540 --> 00:10:14,640 And so we kind of see education 149 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:21,640 is step one integration is step two and then operational is step three and we come in any 150 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:28,260 part of whatever whatever part of the bitcoin journey the business owner is on we can come in 151 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:34,200 and step in for a lot of business owners they get the value proposition of bitcoin maybe they 152 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:39,940 understand it a little bit but they really just want some help getting set up hey how do i how do 153 00:10:39,940 --> 00:10:46,140 I accept payments. You'd actually be surprised how many Bitcoiners are running businesses and 154 00:10:46,140 --> 00:10:52,340 they don't know how to accept lightning payments or they don't, they don't know what tools are out 155 00:10:52,340 --> 00:10:57,980 there available for them. And they listen, they're busy. They're working 10 hour days. They're 156 00:10:57,980 --> 00:11:02,160 trying to watch their margins and they're running a business. And they kind of, 157 00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:07,040 even if they may know how to do all of this stuff, they may just want some help with it. 158 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:13,280 So that's one part of it. And then the education piece, I'm sorry, I'm kind of jumping around steps 159 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:19,480 here, but the education piece is really for an organization that is like, I know I need to do 160 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:25,180 something about Bitcoin, but I don't know what to do. And I need some help with that. Please come in 161 00:11:25,180 --> 00:11:30,880 and do that. And that's been less of our focus. We've done some webinars, we've talked to CPAs, 162 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:50,160 We've provided some services like that, but the majority of what we're doing now is helping do the actual hardware and software setup for these businesses, getting treasury, being able to buy Bitcoin at reputable exchanges. 163 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:59,360 As we've all known, the quote unquote crypto world is littered with failed exchanges and scams and Ponzi schemes and all sorts of stuff. 164 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:09,180 And so really directing people to trusted names in the space, making sure they're buying their Bitcoin from reputable exchanges and then moving it into cold storage. 165 00:12:09,180 --> 00:12:15,740 however they want to have that set up is really important to us along with appropriate platforms 166 00:12:15,740 --> 00:12:21,480 for accepting payments and understanding the difference between custodial which is fine if 167 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,400 you want to use a custodial service to accept payments in bitcoin that's fine you just need to 168 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:32,240 have a program where you're moving that into your own custody and eventually taking your own custody 169 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:38,340 and not leaving it in there for extended periods of time or high dollar amounts in there as well or 170 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:44,820 high sat amounts, if you will, in there as well. And then the last part is we have a lot of business 171 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:51,840 professionals on our team. We have extensive experience in the, in the banking world and the 172 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:59,640 business world, um, all, all sorts of different, um, places of expertise and business. And we'll 173 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:07,060 actually come in with you and talk about how we start implementing this Bitcoin into the operations. 174 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:10,340 You know, do you want to start a long-term financing program? 175 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,160 Do you have capital projects coming up that you would like to spend this money on? 176 00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:18,100 Do you have benefits you would like to offer your employees? 177 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:19,920 How do you see this playing out? 178 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,320 And sometimes it's just, no, I want to hold it and use it as a capital asset and just 179 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,640 give out higher distributions in the future. 180 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,720 And that's fine too, but we will talk through all of that with you, help you plan through 181 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:34,100 that. 182 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:43,280 what are your needs and wants with the asset and really lay out a plan for them and be there along 183 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:49,820 the way too. We have packages where you can put us on retainer and we'll talk through, we'll sit 184 00:13:49,820 --> 00:13:54,540 down, we'll block out five hours a month, 10 hours a month, whatever you want. We'll sit down and we'll 185 00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:59,580 do this planning with you and go through all this stuff with you. So that's sort of the full suite 186 00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:04,260 services, I'd be remiss with Jordan on here, not to mention that we have other 187 00:14:04,260 --> 00:14:20,356 partnerships like with CPAs and that sort of thing uh as well for people that need specific tax or legal advice That really the one thing we can sort of advise and coach and directionally show you but getting into the actual nitty gritty 188 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:28,516 of putting your books together or doing true tax planning or estate planning or wanting to draw up 189 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:33,596 contracts or something like that, that's really not our expertise. That's kind of the one area we 190 00:14:33,596 --> 00:14:36,856 farm out and partner with other people as well. 191 00:14:37,356 --> 00:14:45,036 Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm built 192 00:14:45,036 --> 00:14:49,376 to help our clients find balance between money and meaning. We integrate sound money strategies 193 00:14:49,376 --> 00:14:53,696 across four distinct personalized services. Financial planning, individual wealth management, 194 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:59,416 retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. Your prosperity, your purpose, 195 00:14:59,756 --> 00:15:04,736 intentionally guided at Basilic Financial. Visit our website at basilic.io to schedule 196 00:15:04,736 --> 00:15:11,076 free consultation. Brandon, the first time we met in person was a little bit earlier this year. 197 00:15:11,536 --> 00:15:16,916 I potentially want to take the conversation a little bit, a different direction just to spice 198 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:23,256 things up a touch. And you guys tell me, you guys feel free to shoot this down. But if I had to sum 199 00:15:23,256 --> 00:15:32,016 up 2025 for Bitcoin, it's kind of like we have been in this weird treasury, Bitcoin treasury thing. 200 00:15:32,016 --> 00:15:48,156 And I think especially for a lot of the guys and gals in our audience, when I talk to someone who's in the traditional financial advisor world, they're like, yeah, but this whole thing with MicroStrategy and all these other companies springing up, they just seem, it just seems like it's not legit. 201 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:51,356 And so I'll throw it to you, Brandon, first. 202 00:15:51,656 --> 00:15:52,796 I want to get your thoughts. 203 00:15:52,956 --> 00:15:59,856 Again, we met at that Sailor, or I guess the MicroStrategy event back in, I guess that was in April or I don't know when it was. 204 00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:00,756 It was earlier in the year. 205 00:16:00,756 --> 00:16:08,796 May, I think actually early May. Yeah. Okay. And I just, so obviously strategy is, is one thing, 206 00:16:08,796 --> 00:16:12,236 but then there's been all of these other companies that have sprung up and have tried 207 00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:16,276 to do something similar. Uh, we don't have to name any of them. We could, if we wanted to, 208 00:16:16,296 --> 00:16:22,156 to make it real spicy, but, um, I'm just curious if you had one of those come across your desk, 209 00:16:22,176 --> 00:16:27,176 this is just, as you were kind of talking in your background, if you had a company come across your 210 00:16:27,176 --> 00:16:33,756 desk in your previous seat, what would your reaction have been? Or maybe what is your reaction 211 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:38,816 today on these companies that tried to go out and raise a lot of money? Now they're trading well 212 00:16:38,816 --> 00:16:46,596 below their MNAV. And does that pose a big risk to the overall system? I want to maybe go off on 213 00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:49,736 this tangent. We don't have to. And then of course, I want to make sure we get back to, 214 00:16:50,456 --> 00:16:55,536 you know, because I think it does roll into your all's, your thesis on how you deal with companies 215 00:16:55,536 --> 00:17:03,196 and it's sovereign and how you're pushing more business first and treasury, you know, 216 00:17:03,196 --> 00:17:09,896 that comes later once you make a profit, right? Yeah. So I'm happy to talk about this topic. I 217 00:17:09,896 --> 00:17:15,736 have tons of thoughts. I talked with Robin Sayre. I went on his podcast and we actually talked for 218 00:17:15,736 --> 00:17:22,016 a while about this. So I, but it's, I actually went back and listened to, I think I recorded 219 00:17:22,016 --> 00:17:28,076 the episode back in like September and, and, uh, I must say it aged very well. I think the, 220 00:17:28,076 --> 00:17:34,696 the points I made then sort of when we were still in kind of the hype part of it. And I think it 221 00:17:34,696 --> 00:17:43,856 played out sort of as I, uh, had cautioned people that we actually had a company come to us and they 222 00:17:43,856 --> 00:17:50,876 did very well. They had 10 Bitcoin on their balance sheet already. And so the owner was 223 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:56,756 trying to have us go in, convince his board that they should convert to a Bitcoin treasury company, 224 00:17:56,756 --> 00:18:01,676 and then ultimately help him become that, tap the capital markets, get even more Bitcoin on his 225 00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:08,696 balance sheet. And we actually advised him against that. We said, this is not a good plan. You've 226 00:18:08,696 --> 00:18:14,836 built a great business here. Your entire life's work is in this thing. You've built up a nice 227 00:18:14,836 --> 00:18:20,036 little cushion here, a nice little nest egg. It's sitting on your balance sheet. You run a very 228 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:24,616 effective business, just keep taking your profits, keep buying Bitcoin. You don't 229 00:18:24,616 --> 00:18:31,276 want to go out and tap these capital markets because that's not what you do. You're not a 230 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:38,196 company full of financial professionals trying to go out and game the market, for lack of a better 231 00:18:38,196 --> 00:18:44,476 term. And as you said, Jordan, strategy is a whole different animal. They're light years ahead on this. 232 00:18:44,696 --> 00:18:49,276 They've figured it out. They have really, really low leverage. I know everyone thinks that if 233 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:56,336 Bitcoin goes down to like $60,000 that the whole micro strategy is going to get like liquidated. 234 00:18:56,336 --> 00:19:01,776 Like people have people, they have such low leverage and such an insane amount of Bitcoin. 235 00:19:01,996 --> 00:19:05,296 Like it's just, they're not even worth the conversation. 236 00:19:05,296 --> 00:19:14,156 And the only way micro strategy really or strategy gets, gets burned as if they go too 237 00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:19,016 far out on the leverage curve and they start adding a bunch of debt and start levering 238 00:19:19,016 --> 00:19:23,936 up way more than they are, which brings me to my next point was one of the things Jordan, I think 239 00:19:23,936 --> 00:19:29,136 I remember talking to you about it and Jeff Newman from sovereign as well, our, our chief sales 240 00:19:29,136 --> 00:19:34,876 officer, we were talking about it. One of the companies that went up there was bragging that 241 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:41,476 they were, they had 65% leverage and against their Bitcoin. And like, that's how they were adding more 242 00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:48,456 Bitcoin. And I was like, this sounds like a terrible idea. If basically if there's a 35% 243 00:19:48,456 --> 00:19:50,676 or somewhere in the neighborhood drawdown on Bitcoin, 244 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:52,876 your whole stack gets liquidated. 245 00:19:52,936 --> 00:19:54,116 Like, what are we doing here? 246 00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:56,596 This does not sound like a good idea. 247 00:19:56,736 --> 00:19:59,656 But it was interesting to hear them pitching this, 248 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:03,436 basically saying we're going to go farther and farther out on the leverage curve, 249 00:20:03,596 --> 00:20:05,056 and that's why we'll be attractive. 250 00:20:05,156 --> 00:20:06,756 That's why you want to buy our stock. 251 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:12,436 Don't take the safe equity play if you're looking to buy stock. 252 00:20:12,676 --> 00:20:16,736 And obviously our advice is everyone buy Bitcoin, put it in cold storage, 253 00:20:16,736 --> 00:20:36,696 And that's the safest, best bet. You're not going to get burned. But for people trying to quote unquote, find more yield or find more return and get more dollars, the way to do that is to buy more, buy stock of company that's going to take on more and more leverage. 254 00:20:36,696 --> 00:20:41,236 And then obviously, as those companies take on more and more leverage, they get riskier and riskier and riskier. 255 00:20:41,916 --> 00:21:02,716 And so the idea I was talking with Rob and Sarah about was like, you can effectively play this game where your Bitcoin, if it's if the tagger of the Bitcoin, if the annual growth is more than the is more than the your debt. 256 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:13,356 So if you're adding less debt than the amount Bitcoin grew, so Bitcoin grew 40%, but you only added 20% more debt, you could effectively do this forever, right? 257 00:21:13,436 --> 00:21:18,656 Like that's the sort of promise of these treasury companies that you're going to be able to run this. 258 00:21:19,216 --> 00:21:26,056 They literally had a slide at that conference, Jordan, and it said flywheel strategy on it. 259 00:21:26,056 --> 00:21:28,796 I'm like, that's what FTX did. 260 00:21:29,036 --> 00:21:34,916 That's flywheel strategies end in pain because eventually you have a drawdown and then you 261 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:37,536 can no longer fly or do the wheel. 262 00:21:37,676 --> 00:21:39,456 And that's when you get liquidated. 263 00:21:39,496 --> 00:21:40,636 And that's when you go bankrupt. 264 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:41,716 Yeah. 265 00:21:42,856 --> 00:21:46,276 That's the problem with all these treasury companies. 266 00:21:46,376 --> 00:21:51,056 And by the way, this isn't a 30% drawdown from all time highs. 267 00:21:51,056 --> 00:21:55,536 Like this is not some sort of cataclysmic bear market we've entered. 268 00:21:55,536 --> 00:21:58,336 This is like a minor hiccup along the way. 269 00:21:58,396 --> 00:22:01,156 And these companies are getting absolutely massacred. 270 00:22:01,476 --> 00:22:10,996 And so if we do go down another 20% or another 30% and have a more sort of traditional bear market, these companies are all done. 271 00:22:11,176 --> 00:22:11,856 They're all done. 272 00:22:11,956 --> 00:22:17,816 So because you can't run the flywheel anymore, the value of your Bitcoin is decreased. 273 00:22:17,816 --> 00:22:19,836 So you can't lever it up anymore. 274 00:22:20,536 --> 00:22:22,316 And that's when you get liquidated. 275 00:22:22,316 --> 00:22:27,796 that's when you have to sell and that's when your penny stock goes to an actual penny and you 276 00:22:27,796 --> 00:22:35,716 that the whole idea that was sold was bitcoin's kaggers 40 to 50 percent and we're just going to 277 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:40,476 take on 20 percent more debt or 30 percent more debt and we're just going to keep doing this well 278 00:22:40,476 --> 00:22:47,316 the problem is bitcoin's kaggers 40 50 but it's up 200 percent one year 300 another year and then 279 00:22:47,316 --> 00:22:53,056 it's down 80 so like at some point you're going to get caught off sides in this trade and that's 280 00:22:53,056 --> 00:23:00,096 when you get liquidated and i think there are some companies that understand this concept and will 281 00:23:00,096 --> 00:23:05,456 manage their balance sheet micro strategy is doing this they manage their balance sheet very 282 00:23:05,456 --> 00:23:10,736 conservatively and they're able to stomach a huge drawdown and they know that and they position the 283 00:23:10,736 --> 00:23:18,636 company in a position where they can stomach that huge drawdown. The problem is strategy is the 284 00:23:18,636 --> 00:23:24,756 benefactor of being at Bitcoin for five years, putting profits on their balance sheet, and now 285 00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:29,876 they're doing these sort of financial alchemy. Whereas these other companies don't have an 286 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:33,796 operational business, don't have any profits, didn't put anything into Bitcoin, and they're 287 00:23:33,796 --> 00:23:38,956 jumping straight to the financial alchemy part, and they're getting over levered, and they're 288 00:23:38,956 --> 00:23:43,516 going to get over their skis and they're going to get wiped out. And at the end of the day, 289 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:48,996 the ones that do survive, it will either be prudence. Like they actually understood this 290 00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:55,936 concept. They took on very low leverage and they just decided, Hey, we're happy with small gains 291 00:23:55,936 --> 00:24:00,196 and a little extra juicing of our profits. And that's how we're going to manage it. 292 00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:06,316 Or it'll just be sheer dumb luck. Like, okay, we levered up to this level, but Bitcoin only came 293 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:12,696 down this level and we basically skated by luckily not not by any sort of planning or understanding 294 00:24:12,696 --> 00:24:19,876 of what was going on and and they may make it till the next cycle or maybe we're done with cycles 295 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:27,436 maybe they'll just make it to to live to fight another day basically so that's kind of what's 296 00:24:27,436 --> 00:24:34,096 going on with these it's sovereign we're really encouraging businesses just be profitable store 297 00:24:34,096 --> 00:24:40,156 your money in Bitcoin and look and just have a low time preference. Look five years down the road, 298 00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:46,596 10 years down the road. You want to be operating a business that's providing something that's 299 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:52,356 productive and then storing your time and energy in a better form of money as opposed to just 300 00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:58,256 trying to game a system, put a bunch of Bitcoin on the balance. I mean, I even asked these companies 301 00:24:58,256 --> 00:25:03,476 like, now what? Okay, it's, you got all this Bitcoin, it's five years from now, we just, 302 00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:11,196 all take our dollars and go like, what did we do? I mean, it just, it doesn't seem very exciting to 303 00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:17,516 me. It's, um, I don't know. It's, it's just more of the same game, right? Like we were talking 304 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:22,356 about at the beginning that, that rich people understand how to lever the system. They understand 305 00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:28,836 how to get assets, but you're not, you're not doing anything. You're just, you're just taking 306 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:34,796 advantage of us. You're no different than, um, you know, the, the mom that's cheating the welfare 307 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:40,576 system with eight kids and no dad to like, you're no different. You're the same thing. You're just 308 00:25:40,576 --> 00:25:46,476 fleecing a system where you didn't add any value. You're actually extracting value because as you 309 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:50,596 borrow more and more money, you're causing inflation for everyone else holding dollars. 310 00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:56,576 So you're, you're actually a net negative on the system. And it's like, great. You won the game, 311 00:25:56,576 --> 00:26:02,416 But can you do you go to bed at night feeling good about yourself or, you know, what are we proud of? 312 00:26:02,416 --> 00:26:03,636 Like, what did we do here? 313 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:04,656 Yeah. 314 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:14,096 Well, and I like I kind of go back to like even Pierre's talk at our conference, you know, as maybe the counter argument. 315 00:26:14,096 --> 00:26:17,976 I think he was mainly arguing on behalf of strategy, if I had to guess. 316 00:26:18,656 --> 00:26:24,056 But this whole trade of, you know, you're short the dollar, you're long Bitcoin. 317 00:26:24,056 --> 00:26:29,616 and I think that's really at the core of what all of these companies are trying to do right 318 00:26:29,616 --> 00:26:36,976 but he's right by the way Pierre is right but it's like does that make you feel good is this 319 00:26:36,976 --> 00:26:42,536 some sort of I are you happy with what you're doing in your life I mean I don't know it seems 320 00:26:42,536 --> 00:26:48,776 wholly unfulfilling to me to be like I figured out I can short the dollar and long bitcoin 321 00:26:48,776 --> 00:26:50,516 and yay, I have one life. 322 00:26:51,096 --> 00:26:54,096 It just seems wholly unrewarding to me. 323 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:55,036 Yeah. 324 00:26:55,456 --> 00:26:59,496 Well, and I guess, but even you have to be a very special, 325 00:27:00,496 --> 00:27:03,476 honestly, type of person to really do it well. 326 00:27:03,476 --> 00:27:06,776 And to your point, I mean, yeah, Sailor got into the game 327 00:27:06,776 --> 00:27:10,556 and everyone threw at his head for how many years? 328 00:27:11,256 --> 00:27:12,656 Probably two, three years. 329 00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:15,076 I mean, even still, even now, people are like, 330 00:27:15,136 --> 00:27:16,396 oh my gosh, it's drawn down. 331 00:27:16,396 --> 00:27:20,236 And it's like, dude, he took a $1 billion market cap to $45 billion. 332 00:27:20,456 --> 00:27:22,796 That's pretty impressive in my book, at least. 333 00:27:22,796 --> 00:27:29,136 But I think all the copycats, yeah, it's just tough sledding. 334 00:27:29,216 --> 00:27:38,676 And I think for Bitcoin plebs and businesses that are trying to build their business using Bitcoin as one of the main tools to do so, 335 00:27:39,376 --> 00:27:46,356 I think they're the real potential losers in the end if these treasure companies go under, they get liquidated, 336 00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:50,856 that sense of price in this kind of like a bit of a death spiral until it can find its footing. 337 00:27:51,556 --> 00:27:57,316 And at the end of the day, what it really does is it keeps us in this part of the conversation 338 00:27:57,316 --> 00:28:02,096 where Bitcoin's unserious. And I think that's what everyone on this call, like what we're trying to 339 00:28:02,096 --> 00:28:08,796 really push forward, right, is have Bitcoin be taken seriously amongst all parties, you know, 340 00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:15,416 be it small businesses, high net worth, individuals, governments, the whole list. So anyways, I don't 341 00:28:15,416 --> 00:28:18,576 know if you why don't do you have any thoughts on any of that as from the 342 00:28:18,576 --> 00:28:34,132 advisor standpoint yeah I fairly agnostic on Bitcoin Treasury companies they probably come you know somewhere in the middle of youtube the high level i think this is a bitcoinization of 343 00:28:34,132 --> 00:28:38,752 finance playing out so this is creating instruments financial instruments to get 344 00:28:38,752 --> 00:28:43,732 dollars into bitcoin and ultimately i think that's a good thing i think it's a serious thing 345 00:28:43,732 --> 00:28:49,692 and i do think you appear also says that you know these bitcoin treasury companies will be 346 00:28:49,692 --> 00:28:56,792 able to recapitalize the market i think he does have a a leg to to stand on there that being said 347 00:28:56,792 --> 00:29:03,452 i don't think the equity markets is necessarily the most appropriate instrument to use and and 348 00:29:03,452 --> 00:29:10,992 get dollars into bitcoin and i think it will be a winner take most market um yeah i think very 349 00:29:10,992 --> 00:29:16,312 highly of you know michael saylor and strategy i think he'll go down as a captive industry for what 350 00:29:16,312 --> 00:29:21,872 he's done for corporate finance. I do think it's interesting and how some of these other companies 351 00:29:21,872 --> 00:29:27,752 are developing in markets, you know, their own kind of individual stock markets where, 352 00:29:27,752 --> 00:29:34,052 you know, those investors may not be able to easily get access to U.S. capital markets. I've 353 00:29:34,052 --> 00:29:39,812 talked to companies in Thailand, Brazil, Hong Kong that are more or less, you know, copying the 354 00:29:39,812 --> 00:29:46,152 strategy and deploying them in their local markets. I think those companies more than likely will be 355 00:29:46,152 --> 00:29:52,932 successful in the u.s at least i'm worried about yeah the 20th 25th treasury company that's your 356 00:29:52,932 --> 00:29:56,872 copycat and the strategy to your point granted that doesn't have as good as debt terms and 357 00:29:56,872 --> 00:30:02,992 i do think if i'm disappointed in one aspect of this it was just kind of the i can go to market 358 00:30:02,992 --> 00:30:08,312 and do this without an operating business i think that was pretty foolish and i was in 359 00:30:08,312 --> 00:30:15,132 bitcoin amsterdam and listened to you know mauler sit down with peter mccormick that you know really 360 00:30:15,132 --> 00:30:20,152 stuck with me and you know this isn't i don't have any inside knowledge on this i don't know 361 00:30:20,152 --> 00:30:25,512 those guys i'm just reading between the lines here jack and his talk was like there's four 362 00:30:25,512 --> 00:30:32,352 profitable business models in crypto it's exchanges lending treasury companies and stable coins 363 00:30:32,352 --> 00:30:37,312 well if i'm reading between the lines here you know they just launched 21 they're backed by 364 00:30:37,312 --> 00:30:43,712 tether stable coin they launched a bitcoin treasury company strike does exchange and lending 365 00:30:43,712 --> 00:30:50,392 like if 21 is successful it's more than likely going to be because they acquire strike and they 366 00:30:50,392 --> 00:30:56,432 have this well-functioning operating business getting back to your base point brandon that 367 00:30:56,432 --> 00:31:00,812 stacks bitcoin on their balance sheet they just happen to be in the public markets and can 368 00:31:00,812 --> 00:31:07,552 use some additional tools available to them that private companies don't have but yeah i do think 369 00:31:07,552 --> 00:31:12,832 it was too much hubris just to think i can put bitcoin on my balance sheet my stock will rip 370 00:31:12,832 --> 00:31:16,712 that's what i think happened with game stop you know they announced at the bitcoin conference last 371 00:31:16,712 --> 00:31:22,792 year they bought x amount of bitcoin their stock didn't do anything and if you are doing this 372 00:31:22,792 --> 00:31:26,732 strategy like you really have to commit to it yeah i think game stops like the perfect example it's 373 00:31:26,732 --> 00:31:32,272 like you can't just put bitcoin in your balance sheet and expect your stock to perform well they 374 00:31:32,272 --> 00:31:38,632 i mean that's a whole separate issue he i i seem to recall he said he like might buy ethereum too 375 00:31:38,632 --> 00:31:42,152 and he still wasn't really a Bitcoin believer. 376 00:31:42,732 --> 00:31:45,232 And so, I mean, he definitely shot himself in the foot. 377 00:31:45,472 --> 00:31:49,112 But I agree with you 100%. 378 00:31:49,112 --> 00:31:50,032 That's the problem. 379 00:31:50,212 --> 00:31:51,852 You nailed it, Wyatt, when you said 380 00:31:51,852 --> 00:31:53,812 they didn't come in with an operating business. 381 00:31:54,032 --> 00:31:56,112 They just thought they were going to build some shell 382 00:31:56,112 --> 00:31:58,092 to raise money. 383 00:31:58,212 --> 00:32:00,292 And then it's like, okay, well, at the end of the day, 384 00:32:00,292 --> 00:32:05,032 if you do that, this is a trade for you. 385 00:32:05,372 --> 00:32:06,552 So who's your exit liquidity? 386 00:32:06,552 --> 00:32:13,992 so who are who are you dumping on to get your more dollars back when bitcoin appreciates and 387 00:32:13,992 --> 00:32:18,152 you're not actually selling any more bitcoin you're selling shares of a company that doesn't 388 00:32:18,152 --> 00:32:26,332 do anything before the music you know so it's yeah that that's what rubs me the wrong way too 389 00:32:26,332 --> 00:32:31,712 is you didn't come in making anything doing anything valuable and you were basically just 390 00:32:31,712 --> 00:32:39,872 trying to raise a bunch of money, pump it up, and then dump on someone. And you never really 391 00:32:39,872 --> 00:32:47,192 cared in the first place. So if you're a financial professional working with Bitcoin, 392 00:32:47,192 --> 00:32:53,252 you know, the pain of messy CSVs, broken cost basis, and accounting tools that were never built 393 00:32:53,252 --> 00:32:59,092 for this asset. Bitment fixes that. Bitment is the Bitcoin native accounting platform built for 394 00:32:59,092 --> 00:33:06,032 CPAs, bookkeepers, advisors, miners, and serious Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank 395 00:33:06,032 --> 00:33:11,252 statements, reliable cost basis tracking, full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid. 396 00:33:11,632 --> 00:33:16,092 No crypto talk, no workarounds, just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth. 397 00:33:16,532 --> 00:33:19,792 Create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today. 398 00:33:21,212 --> 00:33:26,412 Well, I think where we could go from this part of the conversation is, okay, so if we're, 399 00:33:26,412 --> 00:33:44,452 If we're skeptical of that part of the Bitcoin ecosystem and how it's been playing out, if you move over to operational businesses having the opportunity to dip their toe into Bitcoin, whether it's the Treasury sweeping profits into the Treasury or taking Bitcoin as payment. 400 00:33:44,452 --> 00:33:48,932 And Brandon, I guess, tell us what you're seeing on the ground with the business owners 401 00:33:48,932 --> 00:33:49,772 you've spoken with. 402 00:33:49,812 --> 00:33:55,352 Of course, we can talk about some of the point of sale implementations that have come out 403 00:33:55,352 --> 00:33:59,552 this year that's making things a lot easier for businesses to onboard into Bitcoin. 404 00:33:59,552 --> 00:34:05,232 But I think that that honestly is the most bullish story of this whole year is honestly 405 00:34:05,232 --> 00:34:09,672 the work that you all have been doing on the ground, speaking with business owners and 406 00:34:09,672 --> 00:34:15,572 trying to help them solve a core problem within their business and personal financial life that 407 00:34:15,572 --> 00:34:22,852 is inflation and how Bitcoin helps to offset that. Yeah. And this square rollout has been amazing. 408 00:34:23,112 --> 00:34:30,532 I mean, that's to even be able to say, do you just have a, I actually talked to a guy, he owns a 409 00:34:31,132 --> 00:34:38,652 wine shop up by me and he's a really cool shop. It's all organic, biodynamic, natural. And Ben 410 00:34:38,652 --> 00:34:43,452 justman would be very proud of this place i was gonna say did i sell perry lane yeah well i've 411 00:34:43,452 --> 00:34:47,212 talked i have actually talked to him about that and he went to the website and he said that's very 412 00:34:47,212 --> 00:34:52,132 cool and so i'm actually gonna bring a bottle buy for him and just be like sample this let me know 413 00:34:52,132 --> 00:34:57,272 uh i asked ben if he wanted if he would be willing to go into other markets and get some other stores 414 00:34:57,272 --> 00:35:04,852 but he he didn't uh he didn't respond to me on that one so anyways i went in and he had a point 415 00:35:04,852 --> 00:35:11,092 of sales it's called like light speed or light something i'm i'm actually or lightning speed or 416 00:35:11,092 --> 00:35:15,212 something i'm actually forgetting the name was one of the ones i actually hadn't heard of but i started 417 00:35:15,212 --> 00:35:22,552 talking to him about it and he said yeah and he i said would you ever think about switching over to 418 00:35:22,552 --> 00:35:27,712 a different point of sale and i started talking to him because peony lane was brought up and i 419 00:35:27,712 --> 00:35:31,952 mentioned how i met him through bitcoin and would you think about switching over he's like yeah i 420 00:35:31,952 --> 00:35:37,472 guess I really wouldn't care. And I would just accept whatever people just wave their card in 421 00:35:37,472 --> 00:35:40,792 front of this thing. Anyways, Square has been trying to get ahold of me. They're willing to 422 00:35:40,792 --> 00:35:46,692 offer me a 25% discount to get set up with them. I'm like, okay, well, so there's a year one 423 00:35:46,692 --> 00:35:51,012 savings for you. I'm guessing it's probably similar in cost. It's not going to be a, 424 00:35:51,472 --> 00:35:57,652 it's not that hard to switch infrastructure here. And he said, no, absolutely not. And so 425 00:35:57,652 --> 00:36:04,012 that's been a really cool development to even be able to go into stores and be like here's here's 426 00:36:04,012 --> 00:36:09,352 a merchant option for you i mean you could do it at bars restaurants that was always a hard part 427 00:36:09,352 --> 00:36:13,992 and that's sort of what pub key had figured out that they were running all their own infrastructure 428 00:36:13,992 --> 00:36:19,672 and doing lots and lots of transactions and it's all only inbound there's no outbound transactions 429 00:36:19,672 --> 00:36:27,052 so and flash made things easier and unchained had ways you could do it but it then it was a 430 00:36:27,052 --> 00:36:34,272 custodial wallet. So there's all these tools being built out to solve these problems of business 431 00:36:34,272 --> 00:36:41,872 owners getting it, um, getting it through payments. And then the treasury option as well is super 432 00:36:41,872 --> 00:36:46,632 easy. There's so many great exchanges. There's so many great self-custody options. There's great 433 00:36:46,632 --> 00:36:53,912 multi-sig options. There's business concierge options as well out there. And that's, that's 434 00:36:53,912 --> 00:36:59,992 really who we've been dealing with so far is profitable companies who have actually done quite 435 00:36:59,992 --> 00:37:06,052 well and they're they're sitting there going i have this cash i have these reserves but it's a 436 00:37:06,052 --> 00:37:11,432 melting ice cube i i don't have some massive capital project i don't want to go hire 10 more 437 00:37:11,432 --> 00:37:17,672 people just to have more headcount i you know i don't want to do all this stuff like what do i do 438 00:37:17,672 --> 00:37:32,132 Where do I put this money? How do I save it? And these are people who understand that they're profitable, the value of hard money, or at least the lack of value in soft money. 439 00:37:32,132 --> 00:38:00,992 They, they understand that, that they just can't store their, their time and energy in fiat. And so they'll come to us. And so it's been really cool so far. We're in 2026. We're going to try to branch out a little more and maybe get into some bigger institutions or companies where we're kind of pushing them like, Hey, you need to understand that. Why this, why don't you, why don't you bring us on? 440 00:38:00,992 --> 00:38:07,292 we'll get you set up, blah, blah, blah. But this year has been a lot more of people who have, 441 00:38:07,532 --> 00:38:14,552 they've taken a step or two into their Bitcoin journey already and are looking for help. And 442 00:38:14,552 --> 00:38:19,112 so we're going to try, obviously we'd love to keep doing that. And it's been exciting working 443 00:38:19,112 --> 00:38:22,752 with those people and we're going to continue to work with those people. And those are our best 444 00:38:22,752 --> 00:38:29,432 customers, by the way, is people who wanted help, came to us, got the help and have just been 445 00:38:29,432 --> 00:38:33,972 eternally grateful. They're super happy with everything. And we have great relationships with 446 00:38:33,972 --> 00:38:39,032 those people. I imagine they're going to be customers for life. And we're not even, we didn't 447 00:38:39,032 --> 00:38:45,292 even have a full year of operation last year. And so to have that already is super cool. 448 00:38:46,132 --> 00:38:54,972 But we are also going to be trying to get out there and say, and push those people into their 449 00:38:54,972 --> 00:38:59,912 first couple steps of their Bitcoin journey as well to explain that to them. And that's been a 450 00:38:59,912 --> 00:39:06,972 tougher hurdle, but I do think we're going to, we have some good plans and good people to make 451 00:39:06,972 --> 00:39:13,072 that happen. And I think we're going to do it. So. Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things I 452 00:39:13,072 --> 00:39:18,312 talk about a lot is just like, I'm so bullish on the development within the Bitcoin ecosystem, 453 00:39:18,312 --> 00:39:23,412 and then specifically in like the subject of Bitcoin financial services of what entrepreneurs 454 00:39:23,412 --> 00:39:25,112 are doing in the space. 455 00:39:26,332 --> 00:39:30,052 Brandon, do you think Sovereign was possible five years ago? 456 00:39:30,252 --> 00:39:35,292 And you want to like list out some specific tools and products like you recommend to your 457 00:39:35,292 --> 00:39:39,372 clients for the audience and just kind of elaborate on like the development in this 458 00:39:39,372 --> 00:39:41,752 space and how it makes, you know, our jobs easier. 459 00:39:42,692 --> 00:39:49,192 Well, I would say that Sovereign five years ago, just from a just from a culture and sort 460 00:39:49,192 --> 00:39:51,452 of zeitgeist standpoint would have been impossible. 461 00:39:51,452 --> 00:39:59,372 no i mean i used to try to talk to people about bitcoin four or five years ago and i laughed out 462 00:39:59,372 --> 00:40:05,952 of the room i mean just i one in 20 i would get some sort of favorable response or even like a 463 00:40:05,952 --> 00:40:12,672 willingness to talk about it and today everyone's heard of bitcoin and they're at least like okay 464 00:40:12,672 --> 00:40:16,972 they'll at least start asking questions even if it's like well i heard it uses a lot of energy 465 00:40:16,972 --> 00:40:21,392 or I heard only criminals use it. 466 00:40:21,612 --> 00:40:24,632 Like you even get FUD responses back 467 00:40:24,632 --> 00:40:27,192 before they would just be like just nothing, 468 00:40:27,332 --> 00:40:27,932 just a zero. 469 00:40:28,712 --> 00:40:30,732 And so I don't even think it would, 470 00:40:31,072 --> 00:40:32,032 I don't even think businesses 471 00:40:32,032 --> 00:40:34,592 would have even considered the possibility 472 00:40:34,592 --> 00:40:36,872 of doing anything with Bitcoin five years ago. 473 00:40:36,872 --> 00:40:40,932 So just from a mission standpoint of the company, 474 00:40:40,992 --> 00:40:43,412 I don't even think we would be able to exist five years ago. 475 00:40:43,632 --> 00:40:45,832 But in terms of the tools, 476 00:40:45,832 --> 00:40:53,372 companies like Unchained, they now have, you can get, you can get multi-institution custody 477 00:40:53,372 --> 00:40:59,812 through them if people don't want to hold their own keys where they'll effectively be your Bitcoin 478 00:40:59,812 --> 00:41:05,712 bank for you. And, but via separated keys. So it's not, you don't have concentration at one 479 00:41:05,712 --> 00:41:12,292 institution. That tool exists. We've had people ask us for that. Unfortunately, one of the people 480 00:41:12,292 --> 00:41:18,792 that asked us for that was not in the U.S. and unable to take advantage of it, but I'm sure 481 00:41:18,792 --> 00:41:26,992 services will expand globally. Stuff like Flash, stuff like ZapRite, even BTC Pay Server, 482 00:41:27,272 --> 00:41:34,312 way easier to use now, way more user-friendly, and the UX of BTC Pay Server has gotten so much 483 00:41:34,312 --> 00:41:40,872 better, the ability to, and also just the liquidity on the Lightning Network as well, just the amount 484 00:41:40,872 --> 00:41:48,952 of money that's available on the lightning network to be able to facilitate a lot of these channels. 485 00:41:49,172 --> 00:41:53,272 I mean, lightning payments, I don't know if you guys remember, but lightning payments used to fail 486 00:41:53,272 --> 00:42:00,552 all the time. I mean, if, and you're talking a hundred, a hundred bucks, 80 bucks, stuff like 487 00:42:00,552 --> 00:42:07,212 that, you couldn't get it. It was hard. Now it's seamless. It works like 99% of the time. So even 488 00:42:07,212 --> 00:42:13,212 just the ability of completing payments and the liquidity of the lightning network has improved 489 00:42:13,212 --> 00:42:19,452 so much and the channel routing the ability to get to other channels and accept payment has 490 00:42:19,452 --> 00:42:27,332 increased dramatically so those are a lot of the tools and then just having having an array of 491 00:42:27,332 --> 00:42:48,348 really good bitcoin only exchanges out there strike unchained um companies like that or um Yeah strike river unchained um just even having a really good stable of competitive exchanges that are bitcoin only to go to as opposed to four to five years ago a lot 492 00:42:48,348 --> 00:42:54,128 of these companies were sort of in their nascent stages we didn't know who they were and it was 493 00:42:54,128 --> 00:42:59,848 kind of like you know there's coinbase or some of these other places have been around but no one 494 00:42:59,848 --> 00:43:06,888 wants to deal with them and they have the crypto casino going on there as well. And so even those 495 00:43:06,888 --> 00:43:15,788 options, having trusted people, you feel good about sending people to as well has proliferated 496 00:43:15,788 --> 00:43:23,568 to a point that would not have been possible four or five years ago. This episode is brought to you 497 00:43:23,568 --> 00:43:27,988 by Satoshi Pacioli, a full service accounting and tax firm built for the Bitcoin economy. 498 00:43:27,988 --> 00:43:34,028 If you run a Bitcoin business, mine Bitcoin, or invest in it, you need advisors who actually understand how this industry works. 499 00:43:34,508 --> 00:43:41,468 Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for Bitcoin-focused companies and individuals. 500 00:43:41,848 --> 00:43:45,668 They speak the language of Bitcoiners and help you stay compliant while building for the long term. 501 00:43:46,008 --> 00:43:50,128 To learn more or book a consultation, visit satoshipacioli.com. 502 00:43:50,128 --> 00:43:57,028 one thing that you touched on just a little bit ago that i know even wide and i are trying to 503 00:43:57,028 --> 00:44:05,128 figure out ourselves is trying to get this message out to a more uh traditional audience a more just 504 00:44:05,128 --> 00:44:10,468 like an audience it's like they're just not they're not following you know the filter versus 505 00:44:10,468 --> 00:44:15,088 quantum debate on on x or something like that right that's probably for the best actually but 506 00:44:15,088 --> 00:44:19,548 yeah sure yeah yeah definitely for the best for their mental health and and everything else but 507 00:44:19,548 --> 00:44:38,728 But I guess, does Sovereign have any strategies going into the new year that you'd be willing to share about trying to get the word out to someone who's like, they're not even looking to get into it, but we're trying to explain to them why they should care about Bitcoin. 508 00:44:38,728 --> 00:44:46,168 Again, not from a price action standpoint, but from a, hey, this is why your life feels so hard right now standpoint. 509 00:44:46,588 --> 00:44:49,748 And we have a solution that we think is a really good idea. 510 00:44:50,248 --> 00:44:56,008 I'm just curious, any channels that you guys are potentially going through on getting that message across? 511 00:44:56,448 --> 00:45:05,908 And then making sure that that message is like really dialed in so that, you know, new customer kind of understands exactly the problem you're solving. 512 00:45:05,908 --> 00:45:11,288 yeah we've thought about this a lot actually and there's a couple things we're gonna be doing we've 513 00:45:11,288 --> 00:45:18,348 started doing them already but we're gonna start getting out on the for lack of a better term the 514 00:45:18,348 --> 00:45:24,448 normie business circuit we're gonna um we're gonna start applying for speaker positions panel 515 00:45:24,448 --> 00:45:34,128 positions at um business expos small business expos financial um expos and conferences and that 516 00:45:34,128 --> 00:45:40,768 sort of thing. So we're, we, we actually hired a media guy who is helping us with that, just source 517 00:45:40,768 --> 00:45:45,148 a bunch of different stuff. And so if there's something, for example, there's one in Iowa, 518 00:45:45,468 --> 00:45:49,768 I'm in Chicago, I'm going to, I'll drive out to that one and do it. So I'm going to apply to that 519 00:45:49,768 --> 00:45:55,408 one. And we have people in New York, people in DC, people in Vegas. We found a couple in Vegas, 520 00:45:55,408 --> 00:46:01,028 the conference capital of the world out there. So we'll have our Vegas guy, try to get on that one 521 00:46:01,028 --> 00:46:02,908 and just try to infiltrate that. 522 00:46:03,208 --> 00:46:04,228 And then at the same time, 523 00:46:05,028 --> 00:46:08,168 we're going to start joining some networks, 524 00:46:08,268 --> 00:46:09,288 some business networks, 525 00:46:09,568 --> 00:46:12,048 especially if we're in big cities like Chicago 526 00:46:12,048 --> 00:46:14,088 has tons of different options. 527 00:46:14,228 --> 00:46:16,128 There's tech stuff, there's finance stuff, 528 00:46:16,268 --> 00:46:18,748 there's middle market business stuff. 529 00:46:19,088 --> 00:46:23,268 And try to just join that network with people that way 530 00:46:23,268 --> 00:46:26,888 and be sort of the Bitcoin guy there, 531 00:46:26,988 --> 00:46:29,448 be the only person that knows about Bitcoin. 532 00:46:29,908 --> 00:46:30,968 Who is this? 533 00:46:31,028 --> 00:46:31,608 What is that? 534 00:46:31,708 --> 00:46:32,648 Pique some curiosity. 535 00:46:32,848 --> 00:46:49,508 And then lastly, we're going to start trying to get on or have on people in the normal finance world or the normal business world that aren't Bitcoiners and see if we can talk to them about Bitcoin, see if they'll be open to that. 536 00:46:49,508 --> 00:47:06,968 And so really continuing a focus in the Bitcoin community with Bitcoiners and all that, but really going hard into the non-Bitcoin community and putting our time and effort there, saying if we can ingratiate ourselves to people, build trust. 537 00:47:06,968 --> 00:47:32,408 And given all of us have extensive backgrounds and, you know, multi-decade backgrounds and doing other things. And so hopefully that provides us some, some credibility and at least a willingness to listen to what we have to say that, okay, these people aren't totally crazy. They, they left a lucrative career of a very long time to go do something else, to go do this. Maybe they're not nuts. 538 00:47:32,408 --> 00:47:39,608 um and so that's those are going to be our avenues of focus and i i think i think it's 539 00:47:39,608 --> 00:47:42,948 going to be awesome i think it's going to be really cool and i think it's going to be a 540 00:47:42,948 --> 00:47:49,888 great opportunity but we'll we'll see how all of this goes next year that's awesome uh 541 00:47:49,888 --> 00:47:54,708 are most of folks you guys talk to would you kind of like predominantly say they're like 542 00:47:54,708 --> 00:47:58,848 services business you know is it like the one shop down the street gives them insight of that 543 00:47:58,848 --> 00:48:08,208 um i would say so far generally speaking it's owner operators with sole decision making authority 544 00:48:08,208 --> 00:48:15,448 that really understand sort of the proof of work idea maybe they're not fully orange pill or 545 00:48:15,448 --> 00:48:20,088 whatever but they get it like hey i'm doing something productive here i'm making something 546 00:48:20,088 --> 00:48:27,188 but i can't keep up with the rising costs and i i heard a bitcoin is a potential solution 547 00:48:27,188 --> 00:48:33,708 explain it to me why and I would say that's been much more the mix and then we've had like I said 548 00:48:33,708 --> 00:48:40,988 we've had a good deal of Bitcoiners who just want some extra help like hey maybe I have my own cold 549 00:48:40,988 --> 00:48:47,888 storage set up or I have my business and I just take my salary and I buy Bitcoin on my own but I 550 00:48:47,888 --> 00:48:53,388 really haven't set it up for the company I don't have a good setup will you guys help me come do 551 00:48:53,388 --> 00:49:01,268 that. And that's actually been, uh, maybe, maybe like half of, uh, our clientele so far as well 552 00:49:01,268 --> 00:49:06,768 as it's been that kind of Bitcoiner, give me some extra help and expertise as well. 553 00:49:07,988 --> 00:49:14,548 Yeah. I mean, even on the individual side, I mean, I know I hired, uh, someone, uh, if anyone 554 00:49:14,548 --> 00:49:22,488 knows Armin De Parman, uh, yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah, legend. I engaged him, uh, and I'm, it was 555 00:49:22,488 --> 00:49:28,268 all through. I met a guy. We had known each other on, on X or Twitter at the time we met at the 556 00:49:28,268 --> 00:49:33,628 conference in Miami in person. So I was like, okay, you're, you're a real guy. And then he actually, 557 00:49:33,628 --> 00:49:40,208 uh, put me in contact with, with, uh, Parman and, um, and yeah, I mean, I paid Parman some sats 558 00:49:40,208 --> 00:49:45,928 that honestly that, you know, I paid a lot of money for that consulting now. Um, but you know, 559 00:49:45,968 --> 00:49:51,088 it's, it was one of those things that it was very necessary in my learning journey, even though I was 560 00:49:51,088 --> 00:49:57,328 very willing to like put in the hours myself but it's it's just so helpful to have somebody kind of 561 00:49:57,328 --> 00:50:01,928 hold your hand especially if you don't have you know someone in your family or close to you that's 562 00:50:01,928 --> 00:50:09,588 willing to do it uh you know for free so i love that you guys are doing that so um well jord just 563 00:50:09,588 --> 00:50:13,508 just something i want to add to that point just because i think a part of this is something we 564 00:50:13,508 --> 00:50:17,608 talk about a lot you know it's like oh i have bitcoin like what i need financial services and 565 00:50:17,608 --> 00:50:22,568 to speak kind of like more to your line of business, Brandon, or if you're a business owner, 566 00:50:23,228 --> 00:50:27,668 it's like crucially important you make data driven decisions and the amount of due diligence 567 00:50:27,668 --> 00:50:34,188 and intentionality you have to make or put into those decisions is paramount to the future success 568 00:50:34,188 --> 00:50:38,968 of your business. And it's valuable just getting a second opinion on that, right? And like leaning 569 00:50:38,968 --> 00:50:43,148 into, you know, folks like yourselves who have done the work that can add a different perspective 570 00:50:43,148 --> 00:50:45,108 that you can bounce ideas off of. 571 00:50:45,588 --> 00:50:49,008 That's something that I think crosses Bitcoin, 572 00:50:49,108 --> 00:50:50,648 that Bitcoiners should ignore. 573 00:50:50,908 --> 00:50:53,968 It's important that we build out this ecosystem. 574 00:50:54,228 --> 00:50:55,708 So I just love that point, Jordan. 575 00:50:55,808 --> 00:50:57,028 I think that's very pertinent. 576 00:50:57,948 --> 00:51:00,908 Yeah, there's so much that goes on in running a business 577 00:51:00,908 --> 00:51:02,588 that, listen, some businesses, 578 00:51:02,788 --> 00:51:04,848 you might be fine holding all your Bitcoin. 579 00:51:04,848 --> 00:51:07,368 And if you need to sell a little, you'll sell it, 580 00:51:07,428 --> 00:51:08,528 you'll get the dollars, whatever. 581 00:51:08,988 --> 00:51:11,608 Other businesses have incredible seasonality. 582 00:51:11,608 --> 00:51:29,628 And it's like, hey, I need a line of credit for this season and then I pay it back then. And so there's all sorts of different factors that come into running businesses and thinking about these things beyond even even the companies we like to work with, the profitable businesses that are, hey, here's my profits. 583 00:51:29,628 --> 00:51:33,348 I like to take my profits, store some or all of it in Bitcoin. 584 00:51:33,588 --> 00:51:34,368 That's great. 585 00:51:34,468 --> 00:51:38,808 But there's also like running a business that happens all the time. 586 00:51:38,928 --> 00:51:44,908 And there's other financial considerations you have to have along the way. 587 00:51:45,228 --> 00:51:48,728 Unfortunately, you may need to put a new roof on your building. 588 00:51:48,988 --> 00:51:49,808 Well, guess what? 589 00:51:49,888 --> 00:51:52,168 I don't know too many roofing companies taking Bitcoin. 590 00:51:52,508 --> 00:51:56,748 So it's like you may need some dollar reserves for that. 591 00:51:56,828 --> 00:51:58,388 Let's at least think through this. 592 00:51:58,388 --> 00:52:05,708 And are you going to be comfortable, uh, in 30 days from now selling $25,000 worth of Bitcoin? 593 00:52:05,708 --> 00:52:09,028 If the price drops 20%, will you be happy with that decision? 594 00:52:09,188 --> 00:52:09,868 If so, great. 595 00:52:09,948 --> 00:52:10,228 Okay. 596 00:52:10,308 --> 00:52:13,548 You know, some people can live with that and that's cool. 597 00:52:13,648 --> 00:52:18,368 But other people are like, no, let's just, I know the roof's going to be 25 K let's just 598 00:52:18,368 --> 00:52:19,948 set aside the 25 K and do it. 599 00:52:20,008 --> 00:52:26,448 So that's a super simple example, but that's just one of hundreds of decisions business 600 00:52:26,448 --> 00:52:28,048 owners are making every single day. 601 00:52:28,048 --> 00:52:34,728 So, yeah. Well, Brandon, it's always so good. I mean, there's so many topics we could go, 602 00:52:34,828 --> 00:52:39,488 you know, on and on for, but you know, for better or worse, this is, uh, we're not at the Joe Rogan 603 00:52:39,488 --> 00:52:45,328 level of like the three, four hour, uh, not with that attitude. Well, not, well, not with that. 604 00:52:45,808 --> 00:52:50,568 And then why it was like, Oh, well, I got a hard stop. And to his credit, I actually do have a hard 605 00:52:50,568 --> 00:52:56,948 stop as well. I've got a little mining, uh, mining webinar. I've got to hop on and talk to all the 606 00:52:56,948 --> 00:53:01,728 people who are like last very last minute planning trying to get some bitcoin miners plugged in 607 00:53:01,728 --> 00:53:06,148 before year end so should i be going long asics here jordan is that what you're telling me 608 00:53:06,148 --> 00:53:14,948 um i'd be long tax planning for bitcoin mining companies there's a little bit of planning that's 609 00:53:14,948 --> 00:53:20,468 going into with all the big beautiful bill stuff uh so that's been uh fun but also a lot of a lot 610 00:53:20,468 --> 00:53:26,568 of work so um brand i'm excited for us to continue working together and just sharing 611 00:53:26,568 --> 00:53:31,408 clients back and forth. It's been just a true pleasure to get to work with you and Jeff and 612 00:53:31,408 --> 00:53:37,268 the whole team. So this is great. And we'll have to bring you back on very soon. What's the handoff 613 00:53:37,268 --> 00:53:42,508 if there's an advisor out there who has some clients, either they want to do it themselves 614 00:53:42,508 --> 00:53:46,988 or they have clients they want to send your way, what's the best way for them to get in contact 615 00:53:46,988 --> 00:53:53,428 with you? Yeah, the easiest way is just go to the website, Sovereign, S-O-V-E-R-E-I-G-N, 616 00:53:53,428 --> 00:54:01,228 sovereignwithoutthefirste.io and just reach out to us. There's a contact us form there, 617 00:54:01,228 --> 00:54:08,908 or we also have a referral program. So we will pay 10% of the first year's billings that we have 618 00:54:08,908 --> 00:54:13,688 to you if you refer someone in and we close business with them. So that's a great opportunity 619 00:54:13,688 --> 00:54:17,888 as well. If you do have an actual referral, someone you want to send over to us, 620 00:54:17,888 --> 00:54:24,588 check out the referral tab on the website and then Sovereign has accounts on LinkedIn 621 00:54:24,588 --> 00:54:34,028 X we're sovereign at Sovereign X again that's S-O-V-E-R-E-I-G-N and we're on Noster but I run 622 00:54:34,028 --> 00:54:41,868 the Noster Sovereign account and I suck at running social media accounts so um it if you if you do 623 00:54:41,868 --> 00:54:47,308 reach out to me I will respond but I will probably move us over to a different platform to chat so 624 00:54:47,308 --> 00:54:52,888 that being said yeah and we might have an instagram account i know we were talking about 625 00:54:52,888 --> 00:55:00,608 bringing it back but i don't know so just go to go to the website sovereign.io or x or linkedin 626 00:55:00,608 --> 00:55:07,568 or uh naster those are those are the four best places beautiful all right well this is fun why 627 00:55:07,568 --> 00:55:13,048 any last words from you yeah thanks so much for coming on brandon it's always good to have a 628 00:55:13,048 --> 00:55:15,528 Bacorn for Financial Services Summit veteran on. 629 00:55:15,688 --> 00:55:17,528 We're looking forward to having you out next year. 630 00:55:17,688 --> 00:55:17,868 Yeah. 631 00:55:18,008 --> 00:55:19,408 And looking forward to staying in touch. 632 00:55:20,388 --> 00:55:20,828 Absolutely. 633 00:55:20,968 --> 00:55:23,848 I appreciate all you guys did with that, by the way. 634 00:55:23,908 --> 00:55:24,968 It was incredible. 635 00:55:25,168 --> 00:55:26,708 I know I told you guys separately, 636 00:55:26,848 --> 00:55:29,488 but you guys really knocked it out of the ballpark with that thing. 637 00:55:29,668 --> 00:55:31,908 So well done on that. 638 00:55:32,008 --> 00:55:34,048 And I always love chatting with both of you. 639 00:55:34,228 --> 00:55:35,768 It's never enough time. 640 00:55:36,088 --> 00:55:37,628 So maybe next time we do this, 641 00:55:37,628 --> 00:55:40,568 we will have to do like a Rogan-style episode. 642 00:55:41,548 --> 00:55:42,508 Maybe in person. 643 00:55:43,048 --> 00:55:43,308 Yeah. 644 00:55:43,388 --> 00:55:43,748 Oh, yeah. 645 00:55:43,808 --> 00:55:44,548 Maybe in person. 646 00:55:45,188 --> 00:55:45,728 That would be fun. 647 00:55:46,228 --> 00:55:46,748 That would be great. 648 00:55:46,748 --> 00:55:46,908 All right, cool. 649 00:55:47,008 --> 00:55:48,308 Well, Merry Christmas, everyone. 650 00:55:49,108 --> 00:55:50,808 And Merry Christmas, Brandon and Wyatt. 651 00:55:50,928 --> 00:55:52,228 I will talk to you guys soon, okay? 652 00:55:52,528 --> 00:55:52,728 Thanks. 653 00:55:52,728 --> 00:55:53,488 Merry Christmas, guys. 654 00:55:53,528 --> 00:55:53,748 Thanks. 655 00:55:54,288 --> 00:55:54,508 Okay. 656 00:55:54,708 --> 00:55:55,128 See you, Johns. 657 00:56:00,348 --> 00:56:01,748 We appreciate you joining us. 658 00:56:02,168 --> 00:56:09,088 If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin and financial services, hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, 659 00:56:09,088 --> 00:56:11,168 and share this with someone in your network 660 00:56:11,168 --> 00:56:13,888 who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice. 661 00:56:14,528 --> 00:56:16,028 The more professionals we reach, 662 00:56:16,468 --> 00:56:18,348 the stronger this ecosystem becomes 663 00:56:18,348 --> 00:56:20,368 and our clients are better served. 664 00:56:20,988 --> 00:56:22,728 Stay sharp, stay sovereign, 665 00:56:23,288 --> 00:56:24,308 keep leading from the front. 666 00:56:39,088 --> 00:56:42,868 Thank you.