1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,780 We're trying to provide an escape hatch for people as fiat collapses around us. 2 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:13,420 But more specifically, I think it can be said that we're trying to build an anti-CBDC. 3 00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:16,600 And that's kind of our core mission. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:23,040 I personally think CBDCs are going to continue to become more pervasive. 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,420 They are. They're growing all over the world. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:28,700 Now the question is, is a CBDC coming to you? 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,800 Is it coming to us here in the United States? 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:33,600 I believe it will someday. 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,040 I don't know how long that's going to be, 10 00:00:35,380 --> 00:00:37,080 but it could be sooner rather than later. 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,420 And I want to make sure that I have a product 12 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:42,220 that is prepared to withstand that storm. 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,900 Bitcoin is a currency on the internet. 14 00:00:45,260 --> 00:00:46,880 If you don't trust any other currency, 15 00:00:47,020 --> 00:00:47,940 this is where you go. 16 00:00:48,140 --> 00:00:49,200 It's going to outperform everything. 17 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:50,840 Bitcoin can eventually be worthless. 18 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:52,740 Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin. 19 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,260 Bitcoin reached its highest price to date. 20 00:00:55,260 --> 00:00:56,900 Bitcoin getting a new high. 21 00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:58,720 it really has reached escape velocity. 22 00:00:58,860 --> 00:00:59,860 There is no second best. 23 00:01:00,020 --> 00:01:01,120 Who cares about Bitcoin? 24 00:01:01,260 --> 00:01:03,540 It's the only secure database that's ever been invented. 25 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:04,620 Antisocial. 26 00:01:04,860 --> 00:01:06,440 Bitcoin is the real deal. 27 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:07,040 Stupid. 28 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,300 Everything is bullish for Bitcoin. 29 00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:09,980 Immoral. 30 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:11,660 It's going up forever, Laura. 31 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,020 Fix the money. 32 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:14,380 Fix the world. 33 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:29,680 and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, 34 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,260 investments, or investment strategies. Investments of all risk and almost otherwise stated are not guaranteed. 35 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:36,220 Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives. It is not intended as a recommendation appropriate for any individual. 36 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,700 Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax legal or investment advisor to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. 37 00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:43,620 Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. 38 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,940 Welcome to the Bitcoin for Financial Services show, the podcast where sound money meets professional services. 39 00:01:52,940 --> 00:01:57,920 We explore how to build the financial services industry within the principles, ethos, and values of Bitcoin. 40 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:05,900 And today we are joined by Adam Semecka, the founder of MANA, a self-custodial Bitcoin spending wallet that's built for everyday use. 41 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:12,580 And they're also building out merchant tools and point-of-sale solutions to make spending sats seamless on both sides of the transaction. 42 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:14,380 All right, let's get into it. 43 00:02:14,380 --> 00:02:23,140 hey y'all welcome back to another episode of the bitcoin for financial services 44 00:02:23,140 --> 00:02:32,000 podcast today we've got adam simeka the founder and ceo of manna bitcoin uh a self-custody wallet 45 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,160 and the point of sale system we're super excited to have adam on and kind of just talk through 46 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,660 all the things that manna supports and some things that they've rolled out in the past 47 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:45,400 six to 12 months. So Adam, thanks so much for making the time today. 48 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:47,900 I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, guys. 49 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:54,220 Yeah. So maybe start off, I know you've been in the Bitcoin space for quite some time. A lot of 50 00:02:54,220 --> 00:03:01,120 the people that we end up talking with are part of that like 2020, 2021 class. One thing I really 51 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:07,400 love about you is you go back a bit further. So maybe give everyone in the audience kind of your 52 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,140 background how did you stumble into bitcoin um yeah what did that look like for you because i 53 00:03:12,140 --> 00:03:18,540 know it's a little bit further in the past stumble is a great word i uh i actually found bitcoin 54 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:24,620 through ethereum so uh the short story is i was in the air force deployed over we'll have to bleep 55 00:03:24,620 --> 00:03:31,920 that out jordan yeah just bleep that out i actually i don't i don't remember who it was 56 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:37,060 there's some big podcast that i started listening to a long time ago and i wrote them a message i 57 00:03:37,060 --> 00:03:41,460 like hey you know it'd be really cool just like for marketing purposes just like bleep out every 58 00:03:41,460 --> 00:03:47,400 time somebody says crypto or any altcoin there you go i love it it would catch on for like a pretty 59 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:55,920 fun uh shtick for somebody but um no anyway uh back to the story i uh was in the air force deployed 60 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:00,640 overseas so i had some free time i was a firefighter i was working 24 hour shifts so 24 61 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:06,820 on 24 off so every other 24 hours i had a lot of free time and so i was doing some studying 62 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:15,240 learning about stocks mostly. So I started investing in the stock market, wanted to find 63 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:21,420 a way to preserve my wealth into the future and start saving something and something that wasn't 64 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:27,700 just dollars. Because at the time, I didn't really know why. But of course, at this point, 65 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:34,080 come to learn that the incentives of fiat essentially create this mechanism of a requirement 66 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,800 to do something else with your money. 67 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:38,600 So we have to financialize and monetize 68 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,820 a non-monetary asset, so to speak, 69 00:04:41,820 --> 00:04:43,800 in order to preserve our purchasing power, 70 00:04:43,940 --> 00:04:45,740 which now that we have Bitcoin, 71 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,700 they can be one and the same. 72 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,420 Your money can also be your savings, 73 00:04:50,580 --> 00:04:56,060 but we're disincentivized to save our money in fiat. 74 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,720 So I was just doing a bunch of research on some stocks 75 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,180 and I got a targeted ad 76 00:05:02,180 --> 00:05:03,860 because of course I was searching, 77 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,260 putting all these search results 78 00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:07,960 or these search terms in 79 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,180 and Investopedia targeted me for a targeted ad 80 00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:12,720 and it was about Ethereum. 81 00:05:13,220 --> 00:05:15,400 Fortunately, the article was specifically 82 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:16,440 about proof of work. 83 00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:18,300 And so as I'm reading through this, 84 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,200 I was able to see what proof of work was 85 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:21,060 and it blew my mind. 86 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:23,640 And so I realized that like, 87 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:25,320 that was a really big deal. 88 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:27,560 I didn't know what Bitcoin was at the time, of course, 89 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:30,160 but I went back to my room 90 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,920 or my little trailer that I was like a little section inside of a trailer 91 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,100 in the middle of the desert in the Middle East where I was staying. 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,520 Had a little nice little window unit air conditioner. 93 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,560 So it was actually pretty comfortable. 94 00:05:45,180 --> 00:05:46,360 Yeah, so it wasn't too bad. 95 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:51,260 But I was just doing some more research and I decided like, 96 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,060 hey, I need to sell all of my stocks and I need to buy all of this new thing. 97 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,140 Right. At the time, it was just crypto to me. 98 00:05:58,140 --> 00:06:01,340 I didn't really quite understand, you know, what all the differences were. 99 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,520 But fortunately, a big part of that investment was in Bitcoin. 100 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,420 So at least by day one, I knew that I should buy Bitcoin. 101 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:23,440 Over time, I realized a lot more about, you know, the overall environment and what Bitcoin was specifically and how it was different from, you know, Ethereum specifically. 102 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:30,480 and just the overall environment of really what the technology was 103 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,680 and what solutions it was solving, what problems it was solving. 104 00:06:36,020 --> 00:06:39,960 And, I mean, it probably took me a few years to really actually understand. 105 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:42,800 In fact, I would say it was probably not even until, like, 106 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:46,340 after the COVID era where it really fully clicked for me. 107 00:06:46,340 --> 00:06:47,780 I thought it did before. 108 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,120 I went to, you know, schools and I did a ton of study. 109 00:06:53,440 --> 00:07:02,340 In Bitcoin, I did some study under Andreas Antonopoulos in the University of Nicosia, if you know who or what that is. 110 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:09,640 It was called a digital currency program and basically went through Bitcoin. 111 00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:14,200 It was essentially mastering Bitcoin in a course form. 112 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,160 So the purpose of it was like to come in from nothing. 113 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:27,980 And by the end of it, basically being able to build Bitcoin, like create Bitcoin from the ground up with, you know, all the open source architecture that it has. 114 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:34,100 And so it wasn't only technical, it was also, you know, some idealistic as well. 115 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:40,720 Some of the philosophies about Bitcoin and really the money aspect of Bitcoin, too. 116 00:07:41,420 --> 00:07:48,880 So it took me a few years, but I eventually figured out that Bitcoin was the signal and everything else had insiders, basically. 117 00:07:49,940 --> 00:07:52,600 That's kind of my background and sprinkled in there. 118 00:07:52,740 --> 00:07:53,900 I did some other things. 119 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,000 I started a mining company in Wells. 120 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:03,100 It was actually pretty, I started working on that mining company pretty soon after I started learning about Bitcoin. 121 00:08:03,220 --> 00:08:04,180 This was in 2017. 122 00:08:04,420 --> 00:08:05,320 I don't know if I mentioned that. 123 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,160 So I started building my first Bitcoin business in 2017. 124 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:15,300 created a plug and play Bitcoin miner that we sold for a number of years, 125 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:21,200 which was just basically a box, an ASIC that you buy and it ships to your home and you plug it in 126 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,980 and you turn it on and it starts mining Bitcoin for you. So no setup required, 127 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:31,140 which was pretty novel at the time. A few months after we came out with that, 128 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,420 there was another company. They got pretty popular, but they actually died probably. 129 00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:40,660 I don't know if they were still even around by the time you guys were in the space, but 130 00:08:40,660 --> 00:08:42,780 I'm trying to remember the name of them. 131 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:47,240 It was like CoinMine, I think is what it was. 132 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:51,940 It was a different, but it wasn't just Bitcoin. 133 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,360 It was like crypto, right? 134 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,180 So that's why they failed. 135 00:08:56,460 --> 00:08:59,900 And I mean, there's a lot of reasons behind why, you know, 136 00:08:59,980 --> 00:09:01,640 crypto companies never last. 137 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,220 I don't know how far you want to go down that rabbit hole today. 138 00:09:04,220 --> 00:09:06,000 But just to finish up my background, 139 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,300 I kind of just continued on that path for a while. 140 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:27,700 And then most recently, it's been a little over a year and a half ago, I started working on Mana, which of course is a self-custodial Bitcoin payments app with the wallet function as well as point of sale and also has some other pretty cool features as well. 141 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:38,680 But my theme has basically been taking Bitcoin, making it palatable for the average person, even the no-coiner, right? 142 00:09:38,820 --> 00:09:50,400 So going and creating products that you don't necessarily need to understand Bitcoin in order to start dipping your toe into the water and building them in such a way that you don't really necessarily have to compromise. 143 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:57,040 And that's a big deal for me because as I'm building MANA, there's a lot of other options out there that are easy. 144 00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:58,640 They work well. 145 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:03,220 Behind the scenes, they're very reliable to a degree. 146 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:09,600 But the caveat is there's sometimes some sacrifice or some compromises that are made. 147 00:10:10,180 --> 00:10:19,020 For example, a custodial wallet generally works really well, but you are giving up a lot of the benefits of Bitcoin in doing so. 148 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:26,640 So I wanted to make a product that was as easy and as fluid to use as a custodial wallet without that tradeoff. 149 00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:32,680 Sorry for the long intro, but that gets us caught up to today, I think. 150 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:40,080 No, man, that's great. I appreciate it. A handful of interesting things in that. 151 00:10:40,220 --> 00:10:45,180 And I'll just start by saying I'm a patriot. So because Jordan Dent, I'll thank you for your service. 152 00:10:45,180 --> 00:10:53,040 um you're welcome thank yeah and uh i do you think this is interesting thread i've kind of noticed 153 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:59,420 is as i've talked to more service members in the bitcoin community and if anybody has seen some 154 00:10:59,420 --> 00:11:03,840 content on this i'd be definitely interested in checking it out but i'm always curious in how 155 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,240 people come to bitcoin i think service members specifically kind of have this innate sense where 156 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:16,620 it's like yeah maybe don't trust these guys or this fiat slop is just slop um so i think that's 157 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:22,880 interesting um and then the targeted ad you know for ethereum i think that's also interesting 158 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,940 because that's almost a meme in itself you know bitcoin doesn't have a marketing department 159 00:11:25,940 --> 00:11:29,480 nobody should be pushing you things you know it's aggressors movement you gotta come to it 160 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,320 um yourself as opposed to it you know you know coming to you unless you're you're getting orange 161 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,980 billed by a good friend in which case they are a good friend but specifically when it 162 00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:44,560 it comes to man, I'm excited to get into like this non-custodial aspect of things. Because as you 163 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:49,040 know, we're talking to other advisors, CPAs, you know, the whole works, like there's a lot of 164 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,620 legalese that go into, you know, what kind of products you can offer your clients. And, you 165 00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:57,840 know, is this custodial? Do you have certain responsibilities and obligations because it is 166 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:05,820 custodial? How do you guys facilitate that framework? Yeah, so there are a lot of services 167 00:12:05,820 --> 00:12:10,900 out there, especially exchanges. That's probably the main one people have exposure to just because 168 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:15,960 a lot of people get their Bitcoin from buying it through an exchange. And most of these exchanges 169 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:24,520 are custodial, meaning that there is a custodian that is taking custody of your asset. In other 170 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:30,420 words, it means it's not really your Bitcoin. What you have is an IOU and this company has promised 171 00:12:30,420 --> 00:12:36,320 you to give you that Bitcoin at some point when you ask for it. Maybe. In fact, a number of years 172 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,700 ago, a lot of the popular exchanges that were coming up were not even able to give you the 173 00:12:40,700 --> 00:12:49,460 Bitcoin. So PayPal, Robinhood, PayPal and Venmo, Robinhood, a lot of these, you know, pop up Bitcoin 174 00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:53,800 exchanges allowed you to get price exposure. You could, they would tell you they were selling you 175 00:12:53,800 --> 00:13:00,400 Bitcoin. But really, all you were doing is giving them some of your fiat money, and then they would 176 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:06,760 essentially lock your price in and then you could sell it again back to them and they would give you 177 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:12,580 the fiat back. So they didn't allow you to interact with the Bitcoin network natively in any way. 178 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:21,220 And so that's just, you know, one example of many of how this whole custody situation works. 179 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,200 So that's why you hear a lot of people say, you know, not your keys, not your coins. 180 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:31,240 you need to take custody, self-custody. It's very, very important because all of the benefits of what 181 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:38,920 Bitcoin offers can't be utilized unless you actually hold the Bitcoin yourself. So the 182 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:44,460 permissionlessness, the trustlessness, you know, the immutability, the censorship resistance, 183 00:13:44,460 --> 00:13:51,320 you know, these things don't come with an IOU token, which is what happens when you hold your 184 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,900 Bitcoin on an exchange or in a custodial wallet. And that's a big reason why, you know, I do what 185 00:13:56,900 --> 00:14:03,900 I do. And it is to try to make it easy for people to take custody of their own Bitcoin. So from, 186 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:11,060 you know, a tax perspective, an accounting perspective, the onus really is on the, 187 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:16,600 you know, end user. And of course, it's always helpful to have somebody there with you to help 188 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,400 guide you through that process and help show you how you can do your accounting properly. 189 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,460 and remain compliant if that's what you want to do. 190 00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:27,980 Certainly there's people out there that are, you know, against that sort of thing. 191 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,360 And, hey, I commend them. 192 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,900 But I definitely don't recommend, you know, doing anything to try to avoid, you know, 193 00:14:34,980 --> 00:14:37,100 anything that you're legally obligated to do. 194 00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:38,180 So I'll just leave it at that. 195 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:45,540 But my point is on MANA, the way that it works right now is just like you would expect with 196 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:50,540 any financial product, there's a record that's easy to be exported. 197 00:14:50,540 --> 00:15:02,094 And so as a Manna user all you would need to do is export your transactions and share them with you know anybody that is helping you with taxes or financial assistance 198 00:15:02,734 --> 00:15:09,194 So if you've got, you know, a CPA, they have easy access to all of your data that you want to share with them. 199 00:15:12,434 --> 00:15:14,434 Your wealth deserves intention. 200 00:15:14,834 --> 00:15:20,334 Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm built to help our clients find balance between money and meaning. 201 00:15:20,334 --> 00:15:29,974 We integrate sound money strategies across four distinct personalized services, financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. 202 00:15:30,414 --> 00:15:34,494 Your prosperity, your purpose, intentionally guided at Bacillic Financial. 203 00:15:34,894 --> 00:15:38,254 Visit our website at bacillic.io to schedule free consultation. 204 00:15:39,414 --> 00:15:41,634 And you guys do multi-sig, I assume, right? 205 00:15:41,714 --> 00:15:43,994 So there's single-sig setups and multi-sig, right? 206 00:15:45,094 --> 00:15:45,794 Yep, yep. 207 00:15:45,794 --> 00:15:57,874 Yeah, because I think that that's honestly, you know, that's the path that I think everyone is ultimately going to need to go down for all kinds of different use cases built on top of these wallets. 208 00:15:58,494 --> 00:16:15,574 Like, for example, I was even pitched. These guys have been pitching me for a little bit. I won't out them, but they've been talking to me about this, like lending, you know, desk that, you know, and I go into each of these conversations like, okay, well, if you want me to talk to my clients about this, like, I've got a lot of questions. 209 00:16:15,574 --> 00:16:21,034 Right. And and main the main one is what is the custody like? 210 00:16:21,114 --> 00:16:22,914 What's the custody set up in the background? 211 00:16:23,214 --> 00:16:32,074 Because if someone's going to send their Bitcoin over to you or post it to you and now you're able to go run wild, like that's what we ran into with the FTX. 212 00:16:32,654 --> 00:16:35,674 And so I guess maybe I don't just speak on that a little bit. 213 00:16:35,674 --> 00:16:42,034 I know FTX was just this, it was a terrible event that scared a lot of people. 214 00:16:42,554 --> 00:16:50,074 And I think a lot of people never came back after that because they just figured, oh, Bitcoin's a scam because of this, because of what happened with FTX. 215 00:16:50,334 --> 00:17:02,674 Maybe for a new user who just read a few headlines back in 22 when that all went down, maybe talk through what exactly happened there and why that wasn't a failure on Bitcoin's part. 216 00:17:02,674 --> 00:17:09,394 part that was a failure on the custody that um and the trust that those users were putting into 217 00:17:09,394 --> 00:17:15,334 a third party like ftx and then adam just before you you answer that i want to want to build onto 218 00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:21,194 it because and probably then to something you just mentioned too and to jordan's point i think 219 00:17:21,194 --> 00:17:27,194 us as you know professionals and advisors in this space this custody question and your due diligence 220 00:17:27,194 --> 00:17:31,914 process is probably the most important and something that just resonated with me that 221 00:17:31,914 --> 00:17:35,254 you brought up adam i remember it's like when i was first getting into bitcoin like the people 222 00:17:35,254 --> 00:17:40,494 um i had known that had you know bought or traded bitcoin or whatever were predominantly using 223 00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:44,754 robinhead and i remember at the time learning that it's like you can't even withdraw it's not 224 00:17:44,754 --> 00:17:49,934 even real bitcoin it was like this you know fake paper whatever the hell it was and it was just so 225 00:17:49,934 --> 00:17:54,534 shocking to me it was like oh wow people are actually doing this sort of thing like that's 226 00:17:54,534 --> 00:17:58,414 crazy you can't even get your bitcoin like that's where all your bitcoin is like holy smokes 227 00:17:58,414 --> 00:18:06,674 oh yeah uh i mean yeah i remember that very clearly um and i mean in the total bitcoin 228 00:18:06,674 --> 00:18:11,194 fashion you know you if you were on bitcoin twitter at the time of course you would get 229 00:18:11,194 --> 00:18:16,714 made fun of like that's just how bitcoiners lovingly fix all these problems we just make 230 00:18:16,714 --> 00:18:22,434 fun of people until you fix your issues uh i promise we we love you we do it out of love 231 00:18:22,434 --> 00:18:27,234 um and we don't want to see you guys get rugged because i actually i have a thread 232 00:18:27,234 --> 00:18:29,334 that I made a number of years ago. 233 00:18:29,334 --> 00:18:35,534 And it had a running list of every centralized custodian 234 00:18:35,534 --> 00:18:38,054 that had rugged their customers. 235 00:18:38,154 --> 00:18:39,354 Basically, they collapsed 236 00:18:39,354 --> 00:18:42,274 or they just straight up stole their customers' money. 237 00:18:42,674 --> 00:18:43,754 It's a pretty long list. 238 00:18:44,354 --> 00:18:47,454 But I could honestly name more failures 239 00:18:47,454 --> 00:18:51,254 of custodial solutions than I can successes, 240 00:18:51,674 --> 00:18:52,594 which is really sad. 241 00:18:53,094 --> 00:18:55,494 And obviously, you brought up FTX Jordan. 242 00:18:55,614 --> 00:18:56,474 That's a great example. 243 00:18:56,474 --> 00:19:03,574 of course that was probably the biggest although I'm not sure if you would qualify like any of the 244 00:19:03,574 --> 00:19:09,934 hacks because there have been plenty of hacks as well that have been massive as well so the scale 245 00:19:09,934 --> 00:19:16,854 I'm not 100% sure of but FTX was a very noteworthy one it's very public and that's the one we all 246 00:19:16,854 --> 00:19:23,174 know and recognize there's a lot of layers to that and why that happened I'll just like I don't know 247 00:19:23,174 --> 00:19:28,534 how deep you want to get into it, but one of the solutions that we have to preventing things like 248 00:19:28,534 --> 00:19:35,874 this is proof of reserves. So it's something that I'm a big advocate of, but at the same time, 249 00:19:35,874 --> 00:19:43,994 I'm also skeptical and cautious about because it can be false sense of security. So proof of 250 00:19:43,994 --> 00:19:50,214 reserves, all it does is basically attest to the amount of Bitcoin they have in a public fashion. 251 00:19:50,214 --> 00:20:01,814 So if you're holding Bitcoin on behalf of somebody else, especially the public, I think it's important for you to be able to share that information with the world or at least, you know, your clients. 252 00:20:02,454 --> 00:20:05,754 There are a lot of people and businesses that still don't. 253 00:20:06,074 --> 00:20:12,634 So I think that that really should be the standard for anybody holding Bitcoin in a custodial fashion. 254 00:20:12,634 --> 00:20:19,294 there are a lot of also a lot of great businesses organizations and even governments that do 255 00:20:19,294 --> 00:20:24,634 disclose those proof of reserves so river's really good at that they're kind of a pathfinder 256 00:20:24,634 --> 00:20:30,294 so shout out to river they're they've built a lot of technology that has made that easy and 257 00:20:30,294 --> 00:20:36,574 they've made it available for other people to use as well so um you know lots of credit to those guys 258 00:20:36,574 --> 00:20:42,394 um you've got el salvador you know a country that is publicly disclosing their bitcoin holdings so 259 00:20:42,394 --> 00:20:47,114 You can go, anybody can audit their treasury, their Bitcoin treasury at any moment. 260 00:20:47,314 --> 00:20:56,014 You have Tether, which, you know, that's kind of a little bit of a tangent subject, but they're holding Bitcoin and they're also publicly disclosing that. 261 00:20:56,014 --> 00:21:00,414 So it's really not hard to do, in my opinion, for the trade. 262 00:21:00,514 --> 00:21:01,814 You know, it's not much of a tradeoff. 263 00:21:02,454 --> 00:21:04,314 And I think everybody should do it. 264 00:21:05,414 --> 00:21:08,654 Rewinding a little bit more, Jordan, you're asking about multi-sig. 265 00:21:08,654 --> 00:21:17,134 And I think, I don't know if you've said these words, but it sounded like you were maybe insinuating or implying some degree of collaborative custody. 266 00:21:17,414 --> 00:21:23,694 So collaborative custody would be a multi-sig setup where somebody, a third party, holds one of your keys. 267 00:21:24,054 --> 00:21:28,654 So real quick to break that down, just in case there's anybody listening that doesn't know what multi-sig is. 268 00:21:28,654 --> 00:21:38,474 Multi-sig is just an arrangement of the keys that you hold to access your Bitcoin where you have more than one signature. 269 00:21:38,654 --> 00:21:55,754 Now, multi-sig could be with yourself. You could have more than one key with yourself. You could have multi-sig in an organization where, you know, certain key players in the business or organization have a key. And it's kind of like, I think of like the nuclear launch codes, right? 270 00:21:55,754 --> 00:22:02,494 So you've got these nuclear launch codes that are distributed among all these military generals and the president and everybody. 271 00:22:02,974 --> 00:22:08,814 And the correct amount of keys have to be inserted and turned at the same time in order for the nuke to launch. 272 00:22:09,394 --> 00:22:20,954 So it's kind of like that where you can't actually send a Bitcoin transaction unless you get approval from everybody, a minimum quorum of the people that you have predefined. 273 00:22:20,954 --> 00:22:29,674 so it is uh fairly customizable in in how you do multi-sig but again keep in mind there's a total 274 00:22:29,674 --> 00:22:35,454 number of keys and then a minimum quorum so you could have a two of two multi-sig which just means 275 00:22:35,454 --> 00:22:40,734 there's two keys and it requires two signatures you know one signature from each key in order to 276 00:22:40,734 --> 00:22:45,394 send a transaction you could do a two of three you could do a three of five i mean there's really 277 00:22:45,394 --> 00:22:49,634 not really any limit um although i you know you don't want to get too carried away because the 278 00:22:49,634 --> 00:22:52,814 more complicated and you make it, the harder it's going to be to spend that Bitcoin. And if 279 00:22:52,814 --> 00:22:58,554 something happens, that Bitcoin could get locked away forever. So just keep that in mind. It's not 280 00:22:58,554 --> 00:23:05,514 a beginner setup, I don't think, in my opinion, unless you have a third party involved. And so 281 00:23:05,514 --> 00:23:09,954 there are a lot of good services out there that can do collaborative custody, which I think is 282 00:23:09,954 --> 00:23:14,514 good for some people. I don't recommend it for everybody, just because there are trade-offs. 283 00:23:14,514 --> 00:23:21,794 the main trade-off being you are giving up your privacy pretty much entirely. So if you have a 284 00:23:21,794 --> 00:23:25,694 collaborative custody set up, just understand that whoever the third party is on the other end of 285 00:23:25,694 --> 00:23:34,374 that, they're going to be able to see all of the activity on that wallet. So yeah, again, I just 286 00:23:34,374 --> 00:23:39,594 want to make sure that it's clear that it's not like a silver bullet, but it is a good solution 287 00:23:39,594 --> 00:23:44,834 for people that want to be able to have kind of a better, more of a handheld experience. 288 00:23:46,114 --> 00:23:52,754 And if you have somebody who's very well experienced and knowledgeable in the Bitcoin space, 289 00:23:53,374 --> 00:23:58,734 you know, one of these companies or an advisor that is able to join you on that journey and you 290 00:23:58,734 --> 00:24:04,774 trust and you're okay with giving up that privacy, then it's a great option because they're able to 291 00:24:04,774 --> 00:24:11,434 help you with you know the the the tracking of all of the financials and everything like that so 292 00:24:11,434 --> 00:24:18,754 yeah and i think the other thing you know we say keys i think maybe let's go down that path just 293 00:24:18,754 --> 00:24:24,474 to touch just to just to kind of say exactly what it is right because it's not it's not exactly like 294 00:24:24,474 --> 00:24:30,694 a key like you used to you know put into your toyota camry right it's i guess maybe adam talk 295 00:24:30,694 --> 00:24:35,854 through the different devices that are that have a key stored on them and what that technically 296 00:24:35,854 --> 00:24:43,674 looks like so a key in very simple terms is basically a password right um you have in bitcoin 297 00:24:43,674 --> 00:24:48,094 you have public keys and you have private keys and you need a public key and a private key in order 298 00:24:48,094 --> 00:24:56,194 to spend the bitcoin um the public key can be shared with other people um and that's part of 299 00:24:56,194 --> 00:24:58,674 what would be required to receive a transaction. 300 00:25:00,214 --> 00:25:03,434 But, you know, it's not something that you would want to just disclose 301 00:25:03,434 --> 00:25:04,854 to the whole world all at once. 302 00:25:05,354 --> 00:25:09,474 You don't want to keep, you know, both keys relatively private to a degree 303 00:25:09,474 --> 00:25:10,754 unless you have a reason not to. 304 00:25:10,854 --> 00:25:13,354 So an example of this would be, you know, El Salvador 305 00:25:13,354 --> 00:25:16,974 providing its public wallet address to the world. 306 00:25:17,874 --> 00:25:19,734 They made that decision to do so. 307 00:25:20,334 --> 00:25:22,634 The alternative example would be like strategy. 308 00:25:22,634 --> 00:25:25,294 Right now, they don't publicly disclose their address 309 00:25:25,294 --> 00:25:32,194 or their addresses. And so as an individual, most people don't have a reason to share 310 00:25:32,194 --> 00:25:37,254 that level of information with the world. I don't want everybody to know how much Bitcoin I have, 311 00:25:37,394 --> 00:25:40,534 so I'm not out there sharing all of my public keys with everybody. 312 00:25:41,234 --> 00:25:47,294 And so these keys, again, it's just a set of characters. It's a password, if you will, 313 00:25:47,494 --> 00:25:54,314 in a very simple way of looking at it. And that is how you access your Bitcoin. It's kind of like 314 00:25:54,314 --> 00:25:59,754 how you log into the to the time chain, so to speak. It's how you prove that you are the owner 315 00:25:59,754 --> 00:26:05,774 and you're able to move the Bitcoin to where it needs to go. And it's stored on a device, right? 316 00:26:05,774 --> 00:26:10,674 So when you actually go to go like spin that Bitcoin, it's you're physically picking up 317 00:26:10,674 --> 00:26:16,574 a device, right? And then you're either using a SIM card into your computer or you're plugging it 318 00:26:16,574 --> 00:26:22,134 into a cord with a cord. And that is basically signing it from us. And that's the whole thing 319 00:26:22,134 --> 00:26:26,534 with the cold storage, I guess, versus the hot wallet as well, which we could go down that path 320 00:26:26,534 --> 00:26:33,834 as well. Yeah. So let's talk about the different ways that you can store or manage a key. So 321 00:26:33,834 --> 00:26:43,814 really the standard, the best way to hold a key is offline, meaning that your keys are not on a 322 00:26:43,814 --> 00:26:49,174 device that touches the internet. That would be what we call cold storage, right? So this would 323 00:26:49,174 --> 00:26:55,334 be like you buy a hardware wallet or, you know, it's kind of what we call them. I don't think 324 00:26:55,334 --> 00:27:00,414 hardware wallet is actually a good term for most of these devices. I agree. I agree. It's a huge 325 00:27:00,414 --> 00:27:05,854 misnomer. That frustrates me. It's a misnomer. What it is, it's they're usually key wallets, 326 00:27:06,054 --> 00:27:10,694 right? So you're actually, it holds your key, but it doesn't hold the Bitcoin. It's not a wallet 327 00:27:10,694 --> 00:27:14,994 itself. It's not a Bitcoin wallet, right? Most of these, I mean, some of them have Bitcoin wallets 328 00:27:14,994 --> 00:27:20,574 built in. But for the most part, these devices are not actually wallets, at least not for the 329 00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:26,434 Bitcoin. They're just they just hold the keys and allow you to sign transactions. So when I can, 330 00:27:26,494 --> 00:27:30,614 when I have the opportunity to, I typically just refer to them as signers or signing devices. 331 00:27:31,474 --> 00:27:37,554 I think that's a much more appropriate term for what these cold storage devices are. But you don't 332 00:27:37,554 --> 00:27:43,254 actually even need to keep your key on the devices. So there's another method that would allow you to 333 00:27:43,254 --> 00:27:49,514 keep your key offline. And some people have created like QR codes that they can scan, 334 00:27:49,634 --> 00:27:53,974 this would be how something like the seed signer would work. So seed signers, what's called stateless, 335 00:27:54,574 --> 00:27:59,634 stateless just means it doesn't store the memory of the key inside the physical memory of the device. 336 00:27:59,634 --> 00:28:03,714 So if somebody steals the device, there's literally no way they can extract your key. 337 00:28:04,574 --> 00:28:09,074 Now, obviously, there are trade offs with with everything you do. And so you still have to have 338 00:28:09,074 --> 00:28:13,894 the key in an accessible format. So either you would have to enter the key in the device, 339 00:28:13,894 --> 00:28:20,474 or you could scan one of these QR codes. But at any rate, you would have a key either, 340 00:28:21,034 --> 00:28:27,374 most of the time, written down in a 12-word, what's called a BIP39 mnemonic seed phrase. 341 00:28:27,634 --> 00:28:34,334 It's just 12 or 24 words sometimes. It's just a series of random words that actually 342 00:28:34,334 --> 00:28:43,934 decrypt your key, which is just an unreadable set of characters. So BIP39 was a standard that 343 00:28:43,934 --> 00:28:49,654 was put in place to make your key human readable. So you can actually, you know, say it, you can 344 00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:53,574 speak it, you can see it, you can read it. Because if it's just completely random characters and 345 00:28:53,574 --> 00:29:00,194 numbers, it's a lot more hard to work with. So either you have a BIP39 seed phrase, or you have 346 00:29:00,194 --> 00:29:07,394 that in a QR form. And so there are a lot of devices that can do that stateless. I know 347 00:29:07,394 --> 00:29:12,454 SeedSigner, of course, that's really all it does. It doesn't ever store your key. There's 348 00:29:12,454 --> 00:29:19,494 Blockstream Jade that can also operate in a stateless fashion. I think the new Coldcard Q, 349 00:29:19,994 --> 00:29:24,354 I think that can also do stateless with scanning because it's got a camera on it now. 350 00:29:24,354 --> 00:29:27,354 So there's a number of them. 351 00:29:28,274 --> 00:29:32,914 But my point is, you don't even have to have it on the device if you don't want to. 352 00:29:33,434 --> 00:29:42,194 I would say a very popular method of key storage is on the physical device where you're keeping the key in the memory of the device. 353 00:29:42,634 --> 00:29:44,214 But some people advocate against that. 354 00:29:44,614 --> 00:29:47,154 You can also keep a key on your phone. 355 00:29:47,574 --> 00:30:01,728 Like this can be a signer It can also hold the software for the wallet And that would be what we would call a hot wallet So MANA is a hot wallet because your keys are on the phone 356 00:30:02,548 --> 00:30:08,728 And it is not as secure as cold storage because it is only as secure as the device in which the keys are on. 357 00:30:08,968 --> 00:30:16,228 So if you want ultimate total security, maybe you've got a lot of Bitcoin you need to keep safe. 358 00:30:16,468 --> 00:30:19,968 The best and most secure way of doing that is in cold storage. 359 00:30:19,968 --> 00:30:24,148 meaning your key has not been seen by a device that touches the internet. 360 00:30:25,848 --> 00:30:28,168 You know, so you can even have paper wallets. 361 00:30:28,208 --> 00:30:30,228 I guess we'll just wrap up with that real quick. 362 00:30:32,668 --> 00:30:35,228 If you're a financial professional working with Bitcoin, 363 00:30:35,468 --> 00:30:38,948 you know the pain of messy CSVs, broken cost basis, 364 00:30:39,268 --> 00:30:42,248 and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. 365 00:30:42,668 --> 00:30:43,628 Bitment fixes that. 366 00:30:44,088 --> 00:30:47,908 Bitment is the Bitcoin native accounting platform built for CPAs, 367 00:30:47,908 --> 00:30:54,508 bookkeepers, advisors, miners, and serious Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank statements, 368 00:30:54,828 --> 00:31:00,668 reliable cost basis tracking, full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid. No crypto talk, 369 00:31:00,668 --> 00:31:04,148 no workarounds, just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth. 370 00:31:04,528 --> 00:31:07,848 Create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today. 371 00:31:08,968 --> 00:31:13,088 Well, I think it's helpful because, you know, I think a lot of the time, if you've been in the 372 00:31:13,088 --> 00:31:18,368 Bitcoin space, if you've handled key, uh, these, these signing devices and you've configured 373 00:31:18,368 --> 00:31:24,008 wallets, you kind of, at least in my head, I kind of assume, oh, everyone, everyone's done this. 374 00:31:24,088 --> 00:31:27,968 Everyone knows what we're talking about. And so I know it feels a little elementary to kind of go 375 00:31:27,968 --> 00:31:31,988 back and walk through some of that, but I think it's, it's important. I don't know if Wyatt and 376 00:31:31,988 --> 00:31:36,688 I have actually gone down that path with any of our guests and, and the first eight episodes. So 377 00:31:36,688 --> 00:31:42,688 I really, I appreciate you doing that, Adam. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'll also just say, um, 378 00:31:43,088 --> 00:31:45,608 This is kind of a unique time. 379 00:31:45,608 --> 00:31:50,068 If anybody's watching this, you know, in, let's just say, 30 years from now, 380 00:31:50,188 --> 00:31:53,208 I'm pretty sure this won't be useful to them 381 00:31:53,208 --> 00:31:56,308 because I don't actually think that normal average people 382 00:31:56,308 --> 00:32:01,288 are going to be using Layer 1 in 30 years, at least not directly. 383 00:32:01,768 --> 00:32:06,268 It'll be, I think, indirect just because Layer 1 can't support planet Earth. 384 00:32:06,568 --> 00:32:07,848 It just can't mathematically. 385 00:32:07,848 --> 00:32:16,608 so with that said that's a big part of you know how we're building mana as well because we have 386 00:32:16,608 --> 00:32:21,968 you know a higher layer like a layer two and you could even consider mana a layer three because it 387 00:32:21,968 --> 00:32:27,648 it's interoperable between different layers it's kind of built on top of lightning and liquid 388 00:32:27,648 --> 00:32:34,828 and bitcoin but it allows you to I mean and that's why that's why we have it on the phone 389 00:32:34,828 --> 00:32:40,768 It's simply just because that's the easiest way to do it and with the least amount of tradeoffs, I think, in my opinion. 390 00:32:41,388 --> 00:32:43,268 And the purpose of it is to be a spending wallet. 391 00:32:43,428 --> 00:32:47,828 Now, we talked about the misnomer earlier, Wyatt, with these wallets. 392 00:32:48,568 --> 00:32:53,748 Now, MANA, I think, is actually what we would think of when we think of a wallet. 393 00:32:53,948 --> 00:32:56,468 It's like the billfold that you carry around on you. 394 00:32:56,548 --> 00:32:57,608 Maybe it's your purse, whatever. 395 00:32:57,988 --> 00:33:01,268 But it is a spending mechanism, right? 396 00:33:01,268 --> 00:33:04,288 It's not necessarily to replace your retirement. 397 00:33:04,808 --> 00:33:07,428 That's not where you put your retirement savings, in my opinion. 398 00:33:07,848 --> 00:33:10,268 It would work for that, and people use it for it, 399 00:33:10,308 --> 00:33:13,548 but it's not the best use case for MANA. 400 00:33:13,548 --> 00:33:19,288 So again, right now we have the benefit and the luxury to use Layer 1 fairly easily. 401 00:33:19,428 --> 00:33:22,488 Fees are pretty low, and we all have access to it. 402 00:33:22,708 --> 00:33:25,848 And so my general recommendation is if you've got a lot of Bitcoin 403 00:33:25,848 --> 00:33:28,408 and you want to store securely for a long time, 404 00:33:28,408 --> 00:33:31,948 I definitely want to probably put that in cold storage. 405 00:33:32,748 --> 00:33:35,988 So yeah, just kind of the different mechanisms 406 00:33:35,988 --> 00:33:37,888 and ways of using and storing Bitcoin. 407 00:33:39,068 --> 00:33:41,288 Yeah, I'm glad Wyatt. 408 00:33:42,148 --> 00:33:44,768 Yeah, a couple of things on that, Adam. 409 00:33:44,908 --> 00:33:49,228 So one, maybe we talk about the secure element 410 00:33:49,228 --> 00:33:52,788 with phones and hot wallets and why that's important. 411 00:33:52,988 --> 00:33:56,148 And then two, you kind of brought up the future. 412 00:33:56,148 --> 00:34:13,048 One of the things I get excited about with these non-custodial collaborative custody technologies that, you know, we thank you for developing is specifically the types of financial products that can be built with that kind of core infrastructure and technology. 413 00:34:13,708 --> 00:34:17,748 And, you know, one that comes to mind, you know, instantly is, you know, lending. 414 00:34:17,928 --> 00:34:20,788 I'm seeing a lot more, you know, lending products kind of utilize this setup. 415 00:34:20,788 --> 00:34:25,548 up. So have you kind of thought the second part of the question, have you thought in the future, 416 00:34:25,848 --> 00:34:30,228 you know, what this kind of technology facilitates in terms of financial products and services? 417 00:34:32,228 --> 00:34:38,308 Yes, I have, in fact, from day one. And I don't want to disappoint anybody just because 418 00:34:38,308 --> 00:34:46,028 it sounds like you guys, you know, are, you know, have a particular stance on this. And so do I, 419 00:34:46,128 --> 00:34:48,828 but I think I think I might have a different one than you guys do. 420 00:34:48,828 --> 00:34:56,568 um let's hear it we love controversy on the podcast yeah so so a big part of of why i built 421 00:34:56,568 --> 00:35:03,808 mana and why that why the team is behind me is building mana alongside me is um you know we're 422 00:35:03,808 --> 00:35:11,388 trying to provide uh an escape hatch for people as as fiat collapses around us um but more 423 00:35:11,388 --> 00:35:18,708 specifically um i think it can be said that we're trying to build an anti-cbdc and that's that's 424 00:35:18,708 --> 00:35:26,548 kind of our core mission. I personally think CBDCs are going to continue to become more pervasive. 425 00:35:26,908 --> 00:35:35,188 They are. I mean, that's an objective technique. They're growing, you know, all over the world. 426 00:35:35,308 --> 00:35:40,568 Now, the question is, is a CBDC coming to you? Is it coming to us here in the United States? 427 00:35:40,888 --> 00:35:45,448 I believe it will someday. I don't know how long that's going to be, but it could be sooner rather 428 00:35:45,448 --> 00:35:50,388 than later. And I want to make sure that I have a product that can, that is prepared to withstand 429 00:35:50,388 --> 00:36:00,908 that storm. And part of that is I want to build tools and products that, um, that provide humanity 430 00:36:00,908 --> 00:36:11,628 with more freedom, not less. And so we've taken a very specific, um, direction in doing our best to 431 00:36:11,628 --> 00:36:18,088 not promote or propagate that fiat system. So lending is something, you know, specifically that 432 00:36:18,088 --> 00:36:25,388 we have decided not to build. Because, you know, my personal belief is that further entrenches us 433 00:36:25,388 --> 00:36:32,768 into the central banking fractional reserve, rehypothecated system. So, and those are things 434 00:36:32,768 --> 00:36:38,988 that I think are a detriment to society. So yeah, yes, you can build lending products into 435 00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:43,608 really easily onto open source architecture, which is great. 436 00:36:44,028 --> 00:36:46,828 As far as, you know, from Mana's perspective, 437 00:36:47,768 --> 00:36:50,648 you know, at least, you know, with us officially, 438 00:36:50,988 --> 00:36:53,548 we don't ever intend on, you know, 439 00:36:53,628 --> 00:36:56,428 building out any type of a fiat product inside of the app. 440 00:36:56,488 --> 00:36:57,228 It's all Bitcoin. 441 00:36:57,468 --> 00:36:59,068 And that's kind of part of our brand as well. 442 00:36:59,968 --> 00:37:00,948 No, that makes sense. 443 00:37:02,228 --> 00:37:04,788 And I think the lending is, 444 00:37:05,608 --> 00:37:07,908 it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. 445 00:37:07,908 --> 00:37:20,828 I mean, right now, again, we're getting pitched on a bunch of different products and most of them saying I can't wrap my head around how you guys like, for example, one comes to me that's like, oh, we can do it at a lower interest rate. 446 00:37:20,948 --> 00:37:35,228 And anytime someone who comes in and says, oh, you do it at a lower interest rate than what Strike is offering, for example, I'm like, I mean, 99% sure that I could never tell my client confidently to go use this. 447 00:37:35,228 --> 00:37:40,728 and so I think it will be interesting to see how it all plays out because you know there are like 448 00:37:40,728 --> 00:37:44,788 and I want to get into the small businesses that are able to use your tool with point of sale 449 00:37:44,788 --> 00:37:51,528 but there is like mismatch I guess if I was to try to steel man it between cash flow coming in 450 00:37:51,528 --> 00:37:57,508 the door and cash flow going out the door and so even you know a line of credit for a small business 451 00:37:57,508 --> 00:38:02,748 makes a lot of sense you know for a very short-term cash needs but I totally understand 452 00:38:02,748 --> 00:38:07,388 your guys stance of like, that's just not us. There's products out there that you can go to 453 00:38:07,388 --> 00:38:14,348 utilize that solve that problem. That's not MANA. I guess if we wanted to pivot maybe over to the 454 00:38:14,348 --> 00:38:21,848 point of sale, there's all kinds of hubbub in the Bitcoin space right now about this whole treasury 455 00:38:21,848 --> 00:38:27,608 versus payments. I think it's probably both, but I'm sure you guys both saw the controversy that 456 00:38:27,608 --> 00:38:34,608 happened, I guess, earlier this week when the Sailor Danny Knowles podcast was released. I guess, 457 00:38:35,068 --> 00:38:41,488 Adam, I assume you have some strong opinions about that exchange and what was spoken there. 458 00:38:41,488 --> 00:38:47,028 Maybe give us your spicy take there, and then I'd love for us to go down the path of 459 00:38:47,028 --> 00:38:51,588 Bitcoin payments and how you all are supporting small business owners that are onboarding there. 460 00:38:51,588 --> 00:39:04,748 Sure. I'll get into the Sailor Danny thing here in just a second. But I wanted to recap on something just a moment ago that we're talking about, about how MANA has taken the specific direction of non-incorporating fiat products. 461 00:39:04,748 --> 00:39:11,608 honestly one of the biggest reasons for that is simply regulation and and you know requirements 462 00:39:11,608 --> 00:39:18,528 and compliance um once you touch fiat you have to have all sorts of licenses and uh lots you know 463 00:39:18,528 --> 00:39:24,148 all sorts of different certifications for the compliance uh side of things so it's really it's 464 00:39:24,148 --> 00:39:29,308 also just not practical for us at our size to even incorporate that so i just wanted i didn't want 465 00:39:29,308 --> 00:39:34,528 that to go unsaid so let's get back to the question uh the one that everybody's wanting to 466 00:39:34,528 --> 00:39:41,648 hear, you know, my opinion on Saylor and Danny. Of course, there is a infamous interview between 467 00:39:41,648 --> 00:39:50,808 Daniels and Michael Saylor on what Bitcoin did. So my opinion on that is before I, 468 00:39:50,948 --> 00:39:58,168 before I, you know, roast Saylor, so to speak, I'll just say, I love Michael Saylor, probably more 469 00:39:58,168 --> 00:40:04,508 than, you know, a lot of people around me. I mean, people are just generally either, you know, 470 00:40:04,528 --> 00:40:10,828 for him or the critics of him. I'm definitely for Michael Saylor. I actually truly believe that he 471 00:40:10,828 --> 00:40:17,808 is a massive net positive in Bitcoin from a traditional finance perspective, as well as, 472 00:40:17,948 --> 00:40:23,968 you know, this emerging, you know, freedom money perspective as well. So I think that 473 00:40:23,968 --> 00:40:33,628 Michael Saylor is fundamentally putting more energy toward hyper Bitcoinization. And I would 474 00:40:33,628 --> 00:40:42,028 even go as far as to say as ending central banking than any other human. So that's my argument 475 00:40:42,028 --> 00:40:48,608 against the hardcore, diehard Bitcoiners that say, you know, sailors just building these fiat 476 00:40:48,608 --> 00:40:55,748 products and making the fiat world stronger and taking away people's sovereignty by offering these 477 00:40:55,748 --> 00:41:02,628 securities. Here's what I'll say to that. If you're in that camp, don't buy stocks, just buy Bitcoin. 478 00:41:02,628 --> 00:41:07,268 In fact, Michael Saylor himself has only ever advocated to buy Bitcoin. 479 00:41:07,668 --> 00:41:07,968 Really. 480 00:41:08,468 --> 00:41:11,128 I mean, he's never said to buy his sock over Bitcoin. 481 00:41:11,328 --> 00:41:11,908 Not once. 482 00:41:12,588 --> 00:41:13,888 So just keep that in mind. 483 00:41:14,028 --> 00:41:15,868 Like, I think he's actually a good guy. 484 00:41:16,368 --> 00:41:18,788 I don't think he's against the Bitcoiners. 485 00:41:19,508 --> 00:41:21,948 With that said, you know, all those compliments. 486 00:41:22,128 --> 00:41:26,708 I do think that he could have handled the situation in the interview a little bit better. 487 00:41:27,008 --> 00:41:29,328 I did not like his response personally. 488 00:41:29,788 --> 00:41:31,188 I will say we are all human. 489 00:41:31,188 --> 00:41:37,628 I have certainly also had my fair share of exchanges that I wish had gone a little bit differently from my side. 490 00:41:38,288 --> 00:41:40,708 And I think he just had a moment. 491 00:41:40,888 --> 00:41:43,108 That's what I'm interpreting this as. 492 00:41:43,188 --> 00:41:46,028 He just had a moment of being human. 493 00:41:46,728 --> 00:41:50,388 And I think a question was asked that struck a nerve. 494 00:41:51,288 --> 00:41:55,588 And it was a very simple, I think, honest question from Danny. 495 00:41:55,748 --> 00:41:58,788 I don't think he deserved the lashing that he got. 496 00:41:58,788 --> 00:42:03,288 and I'm glad they kind of were able to resolve it. 497 00:42:03,368 --> 00:42:06,188 I've also seen a lot of criticism on the Danny side as well 498 00:42:06,188 --> 00:42:09,988 and I've been sticking up for Danny online 499 00:42:09,988 --> 00:42:13,268 just because people are saying he's been a pushover 500 00:42:13,268 --> 00:42:17,388 to put it lightly in the PG version for this show. 501 00:42:17,388 --> 00:42:20,668 But yeah, I think it's unfortunate 502 00:42:20,668 --> 00:42:24,908 that we had an interviewer go into somebody else's home 503 00:42:24,908 --> 00:42:27,748 and people are criticizing him for not being, 504 00:42:27,748 --> 00:42:32,268 you know pushing back harder on Michael Saylor I don't think that's right I think I think he 505 00:42:32,268 --> 00:42:39,208 handled it well um I think Danny was very respectful um and uh you know apologetic which 506 00:42:39,208 --> 00:42:43,628 I think is actually pretty important to uh find common ground in people you have to be a little 507 00:42:43,628 --> 00:42:49,988 bit empathetic uh to the other side of the the the other side of the argument I guess in this case 508 00:42:49,988 --> 00:42:54,988 so well and Adam just for for the the audience why don't we get some background like the specific 509 00:42:54,988 --> 00:43:00,768 a question and response uh yeah so as best as i can remember i only watched it once but 510 00:43:00,768 --> 00:43:07,508 danny nobles was basically uh asking a question of you know why would anybody invest in some of 511 00:43:07,508 --> 00:43:13,848 these other bitcoin treasury companies you know what is like what is the reason basically and i 512 00:43:13,848 --> 00:43:20,148 think that it was a like i said an honest question um and i think michael saylor took it as him 513 00:43:20,148 --> 00:43:22,068 criticizing these 514 00:43:22,068 --> 00:43:23,908 treasury companies and saying, 515 00:43:24,088 --> 00:43:25,848 I think Michael Saylor heard 516 00:43:25,848 --> 00:43:28,248 these other treasury companies shouldn't exist. 517 00:43:28,608 --> 00:43:29,568 I think that's what Saylor heard. 518 00:43:29,888 --> 00:43:32,128 I don't think that's necessarily what Danny was asking 519 00:43:32,128 --> 00:43:33,788 or saying, but 520 00:43:33,788 --> 00:43:35,968 I think in Michael Saylor's mind, Danny 521 00:43:35,968 --> 00:43:38,188 was saying, you know, these companies 522 00:43:38,188 --> 00:43:39,468 shouldn't be adopting Bitcoin. 523 00:43:40,148 --> 00:43:42,168 And that's kind of what Saylor took 524 00:43:42,168 --> 00:43:44,088 off and ran with. And he's like, 525 00:43:44,128 --> 00:43:46,088 why are you criticizing Bitcoin companies? You should 526 00:43:46,088 --> 00:43:48,228 be criticizing, you know, the companies that aren't 527 00:43:48,228 --> 00:43:53,148 buying Bitcoin, which I agree with. I actually think both sides were right in what they were 528 00:43:53,148 --> 00:43:57,888 saying. I just didn't necessarily agree with the delivery from Michael Saylor. And I think that 529 00:43:57,888 --> 00:44:05,168 I think Saylor was talking past Danny. Yeah. So and the big thing, too, was that I think Danny 530 00:44:05,168 --> 00:44:11,228 was just making the point, you know, that you've got to choose where to put your money. Right. So 531 00:44:11,228 --> 00:44:14,708 you're going to put it in Bitcoin or you're going to put it in one of these treasury companies. 532 00:44:14,708 --> 00:44:21,808 and um and a lot of the people who put money in treasury companies have not been it's not been 533 00:44:21,808 --> 00:44:27,488 panning out well and and then when sailor said you know when he was like we don't compete against 534 00:44:27,488 --> 00:44:32,868 each other i mean i was like well of course you do because an investor is looking down a list of 535 00:44:32,868 --> 00:44:39,808 all these treasury companies just try to say and i think it's it's a bit shitcoin like behavior 536 00:44:39,808 --> 00:45:07,642 because they chasing what they believe to be our potential higher returns than what Bitcoin would provide And so I thought it was a real I just thought it was a super fair question And when he said we not competing with each other I understood in one sense what he meant But like from a practical sense of course you competing with where those dollars are flowing into whatever Bitcoin backed equity is in that bucket 537 00:45:07,642 --> 00:45:24,822 So, yeah, and I think that's a good point. I think that's really a big part of the problem is that from my perspective, and by the way, full disclosure, I hold micro strategy or strategy shares stock in a 401k retirement account that I have. 538 00:45:24,822 --> 00:45:37,502 So I am a shareholder of strategy. So take what I say with a group of salt here. But I think from my perspective, there's really two things that we're talking about here. 539 00:45:37,642 --> 00:45:41,922 It is the fact that what you just said, I think, is true. 540 00:45:42,042 --> 00:45:46,442 I think there is some competition among the Bitcoin treasury companies, right? 541 00:45:46,442 --> 00:46:04,722 So when you're buying a security and your goal is to essentially buy Bitcoin, maybe you can't buy real Bitcoin, but there's a large number of people who want Bitcoin exposure or think they're buying some form of Bitcoin, right? 542 00:46:04,722 --> 00:46:25,162 There is a specific category of that type of security. And I think that there is competition and who's going to be able to do that best and who's going to be able to attract the most capital. So I do think that that's true. But to Michael Saylor's point, I don't think it has to be true. Right. And I think the underlying point that he's really trying to make is that every company can benefit from buying Bitcoin. 543 00:46:25,162 --> 00:46:32,422 now i think it's up up for argument whether or not that these securitized bitcoin companies if 544 00:46:32,422 --> 00:46:38,282 there needs to be more than one or if there is you know where is the line on in the competition 545 00:46:38,282 --> 00:46:43,422 and when i say securitized bitcoin i just mean like i think there's a group of people that like 546 00:46:43,422 --> 00:46:48,822 i mentioned their goal is to buy bitcoin they can only buy a security right or it's the best method 547 00:46:48,822 --> 00:46:54,842 for them to get exposure and so what in their mind they're buying bitcoin but instead of buying 548 00:46:54,842 --> 00:47:00,642 real Bitcoin in cold storage, so to speak, you're buying a security-like strategy. 549 00:47:01,202 --> 00:47:03,082 And so I think there is a lot of overlap, right? 550 00:47:03,242 --> 00:47:09,902 And I think, honestly, the biggest tell of that was when we saw a lot of these Bitcoin 551 00:47:09,902 --> 00:47:14,422 treasury companies kind of take a nosedive, what happened in the altcoin space? 552 00:47:14,482 --> 00:47:16,262 And this kind of goes back to what you were talking about, Jordan. 553 00:47:16,782 --> 00:47:20,142 Altseason, so to speak, took off, right? 554 00:47:20,142 --> 00:47:24,202 So the treasury company started going down and the altcoins are going up. 555 00:47:24,202 --> 00:47:29,582 So it's just this group of people that are essentially gambling and chasing those fast gains. 556 00:47:29,882 --> 00:47:31,262 And that's kind of what I saw. 557 00:47:31,442 --> 00:47:32,582 And that is my impression. 558 00:47:32,582 --> 00:47:43,122 It is that this group of people went from buying these Bitcoin treasury companies and propping them up and even front running the IPOs and rotating into altcoins. 559 00:47:43,402 --> 00:47:45,182 It's the same game, in my opinion. 560 00:47:45,302 --> 00:47:53,342 I think this is really a big part of why Saylor might have been a little bit more on edge is because, and this was actually brought up in the interview as well. 561 00:47:53,342 --> 00:48:02,622 But the fact that the stock price has gone down isn't necessarily reflective of the performance of these underlying companies. 562 00:48:02,962 --> 00:48:12,342 The market can do as much damage as anything just by chasing these fast gains. 563 00:48:13,122 --> 00:48:21,062 So if you had all these pipe investors and everybody that was trying to get in before the IPOs and even buying the IPOs, 564 00:48:21,062 --> 00:48:25,422 they jacked the price up really high. They got what they wanted and they're tourists. So they're 565 00:48:25,422 --> 00:48:29,122 just, they're, they're just here for a quick gain and then they're out and they're moving on to 566 00:48:29,122 --> 00:48:34,262 whatever other investment or altcoin they're, they're, they're wanting. And so I think that 567 00:48:34,262 --> 00:48:37,982 that was a big part of the problem. I think that that's probably a big part of why Michael Saylor 568 00:48:37,982 --> 00:48:45,342 was a little bit, um, unnerved during this interview. Um, but, uh, just because I can relate, 569 00:48:45,342 --> 00:48:58,402 You know, as a shareholder, you know, I, you know, held the shares from $425 plus a share all the way down to, you know, $155 or whatever, whatever the bottom was. 570 00:48:58,522 --> 00:49:02,362 So, you know, I'm feeling some of the same things, sailors, not even on the same level. 571 00:49:02,482 --> 00:49:06,902 Of course, I'm not trying to compare myself here, but I can definitely relate. 572 00:49:09,142 --> 00:49:09,782 Yeah, okay. 573 00:49:09,782 --> 00:49:13,742 So our last, you know, few minutes here, I do want to get to like. 574 00:49:15,342 --> 00:49:20,682 This episode is brought to you by Satoshi Pacioli, a full-service accounting and tax 575 00:49:20,682 --> 00:49:25,282 firm built for the Bitcoin economy. If you run a Bitcoin business, mine Bitcoin, or invest in it, 576 00:49:25,362 --> 00:49:29,882 you need advisors who actually understand how this industry works. Satoshi Pacioli handles 577 00:49:29,882 --> 00:49:34,802 bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for Bitcoin-focused companies 578 00:49:34,802 --> 00:49:38,802 and individuals. They speak the language of Bitcoiners and help you stay compliant while 579 00:49:38,802 --> 00:49:44,282 building for the long term. To learn more or book a consultation, visit satoshipacioli.com. 580 00:49:45,342 --> 00:49:53,562 So obviously, like Wyatt and I, we work with a lot of small business owners, whether it's on the financial planning side, tax prep, tax planning, accounting. 581 00:49:55,162 --> 00:50:01,962 There's some different options that are popping up, whether it's a Square user or maybe they're an invoicing company. 582 00:50:02,242 --> 00:50:03,982 So ZapRite makes a lot of sense. 583 00:50:03,982 --> 00:50:15,022 I would be curious, just speaking to advisors on this show, what's the value prop with the point of sale software that Mana has put out? 584 00:50:15,022 --> 00:50:20,402 And what are you all seeing from the adoption of that, the users? 585 00:50:20,722 --> 00:50:26,522 Like, what's kind of the target market that you guys are going after to adopt the point of sales side of MANA? 586 00:50:27,622 --> 00:50:32,942 Yeah, so a lot of people ask me the question, how do I buy Bitcoin? 587 00:50:33,382 --> 00:50:34,402 Or how do I get Bitcoin? 588 00:50:35,002 --> 00:50:39,581 And my answer a lot of times to these people is, well, how do you get money? 589 00:50:39,682 --> 00:50:40,742 Because Bitcoin is money. 590 00:50:40,742 --> 00:50:46,982 and so uh you know it's it people have this mindset that bitcoin's like this other type of 591 00:50:46,982 --> 00:50:51,982 asset that it's not money and so they feel like they have to take what they understand as money 592 00:50:51,982 --> 00:50:57,762 and buy this thing um which you know for a lot of a lot of people that that's a good way of 593 00:50:57,762 --> 00:51:04,122 explaining a great way of accumulating and acquiring bitcoin but with bitcoin if bitcoin 594 00:51:04,122 --> 00:51:08,702 is fundamentally money you can get it the same ways you can get what you think is money which is 595 00:51:08,702 --> 00:51:13,562 fiat currency. I don't necessarily qualify fiat currency as money. I don't think it fits the 596 00:51:13,562 --> 00:51:20,642 definition personally, but I do think Bitcoin is money. And so in people's mind, that helps them 597 00:51:20,642 --> 00:51:25,722 frame how to acquire Bitcoin. You don't have to go to an exchange. You don't have to give them 598 00:51:25,722 --> 00:51:31,902 your fiat dollars or whatever currency you're using to get Bitcoin. You can earn it. You can 599 00:51:31,902 --> 00:51:38,062 trade for it for any way you get dollars. So for example, I have a full-time job. I go to work for 600 00:51:38,062 --> 00:51:42,402 an employer and they give me a paycheck. That is one way to get Bitcoin, right? As long as the 601 00:51:42,402 --> 00:51:48,742 person that you are delivering a service or your labor to or a product to is willing to give you 602 00:51:48,742 --> 00:51:53,722 Bitcoin, that is a great way to get Bitcoin. In fact, I think it's probably the best way to acquire 603 00:51:53,722 --> 00:52:02,742 Bitcoin because it is a lot more private. It essentially allows you to participate in Bitcoin 604 00:52:02,742 --> 00:52:06,922 in the ways that we were talking about earlier, where you have all those assurances that Bitcoin 605 00:52:06,922 --> 00:52:13,562 provides because you can accept real Bitcoin and not an IOU. That part's important, right? So it's 606 00:52:13,562 --> 00:52:19,342 not like you're getting paid on a centralized exchange where it's not real Bitcoin, it's just 607 00:52:19,342 --> 00:52:24,342 an IOU. You could and should just accept real Bitcoin. And that's a big part of what we built 608 00:52:24,342 --> 00:52:30,242 the Manna point of sale for was to allow businesses to be able to sell their products and services 609 00:52:30,242 --> 00:52:36,242 directly for self-custodial Bitcoin. You don't even have the option of going through a centralized 610 00:52:36,242 --> 00:52:43,081 party. It's literally from one person to you in Bitcoin, right? So over the Bitcoin network, 611 00:52:43,422 --> 00:52:50,942 Manna does some swaps and stuff to keep things easy and simple. But ultimately what you end up 612 00:52:50,942 --> 00:52:56,522 with is the ability to interact with Bitcoin with keys that you hold, which is the important part. 613 00:52:57,522 --> 00:53:02,162 And so there are a lot of other companies, like you mentioned, ZapRite. They do a great job, 614 00:53:02,162 --> 00:53:11,182 Square, we're not the only ones providing this service, but there is some differentiation between, 615 00:53:11,342 --> 00:53:18,422 of course, what all of us are offering. Square, for example, that is not an option that you can 616 00:53:18,422 --> 00:53:22,802 use if you're locked outside of the banking system. You've got to have a bank account, 617 00:53:22,862 --> 00:53:27,222 for example, to use Square. Square is not available outside of the United States. So 618 00:53:27,222 --> 00:53:34,362 that's another reason why you might need to use something else. BTC pay server also has some 619 00:53:34,362 --> 00:53:40,022 wonderful, great options too. And it's all just a little bit of a different approach. I think MANA 620 00:53:40,022 --> 00:53:46,882 is, in my opinion, by far, like exponentially easier and quicker to set up than any other option 621 00:53:46,882 --> 00:53:54,202 that is self-custodial. In fact, I did a demo in Las Vegas at the Bitcoin conference and showed how 622 00:53:54,202 --> 00:54:00,622 in 60 seconds, you can have this fully set up as a barber that wants to take Bitcoin for payment. 623 00:54:00,622 --> 00:54:09,262 So if anybody's curious, it's pinned on my X profile right now. But if you're a barber, 624 00:54:09,902 --> 00:54:16,002 you're a restaurant, a food truck, food trailer, whatever, you're selling knickknacks, 625 00:54:16,081 --> 00:54:23,622 you're at a farmer's market selling whatever products you have or offer, you can spin up 626 00:54:23,622 --> 00:54:29,581 a mana Bitcoin point of sale system in 60 seconds and start accepting Bitcoin payments on the spot. 627 00:54:30,042 --> 00:54:35,662 No ID, you know, no, no name, not even an email address, no phone number, none of that, 628 00:54:35,762 --> 00:54:41,402 no personal data collected whatsoever. And that makes it really fast and easy as well. But more 629 00:54:41,402 --> 00:54:49,422 importantly, it doesn't block anybody out. I love that. And that's, and it's on chain Bitcoin, 630 00:54:49,422 --> 00:54:51,802 as well as Lightning Layer as well 631 00:54:51,802 --> 00:54:53,581 if someone wanted to pay in Lightning 632 00:54:53,581 --> 00:54:54,922 at a farmer's market, for example? 633 00:54:55,922 --> 00:54:59,382 Yeah, so if you're running a MANA point of sale, 634 00:54:59,581 --> 00:55:02,562 you can accept Bitcoin through any of the major protocols. 635 00:55:03,342 --> 00:55:06,902 So we often talk about Layer 1, Bitcoin, and Lightning. 636 00:55:07,062 --> 00:55:11,102 Those are probably the two main ones that we use as payments. 637 00:55:11,502 --> 00:55:14,542 But there are a lot of other protocols that are emerging as well, 638 00:55:15,022 --> 00:55:18,122 like eCash, for example, is becoming popular, 639 00:55:18,122 --> 00:55:21,762 which is essentially kind of built on top of Lightning. 640 00:55:21,962 --> 00:55:24,242 I would say it's kind of like a layer three, 641 00:55:24,382 --> 00:55:27,262 depending on which protocol we're referring to. 642 00:55:27,522 --> 00:55:29,502 There's a lot of different methods. 643 00:55:30,542 --> 00:55:31,942 Spark is getting pretty popular. 644 00:55:32,081 --> 00:55:33,122 That's from LightSpark. 645 00:55:34,642 --> 00:55:36,802 There is, what else is there? 646 00:55:36,862 --> 00:55:40,102 I mean, Liquid is another popular protocol, 647 00:55:40,342 --> 00:55:44,942 which is actually where our app basically lives. 648 00:55:44,942 --> 00:55:50,142 It's basically a liquid wallet with interoperability with everything else. 649 00:55:50,342 --> 00:55:56,042 So the important part for MANA, if you're interested in MANA, is that you don't need to know about any of these protocols. 650 00:55:56,742 --> 00:55:58,402 They just work automatically, right? 651 00:55:58,502 --> 00:56:07,342 So if you're a vendor, if you just want to use the wallet, whatever, you don't have to worry about, you know, can I connect to this type of Bitcoin? 652 00:56:07,602 --> 00:56:09,922 If it's Bitcoin, it works. 653 00:56:10,962 --> 00:56:11,722 I love it. 654 00:56:12,302 --> 00:56:12,942 All right, man. 655 00:56:13,062 --> 00:56:13,842 Well, this has been great. 656 00:56:13,842 --> 00:56:18,382 I really I'm glad that we kind of covered a lot of a lot of just like basic stuff. 657 00:56:18,562 --> 00:56:25,242 I think that your background of running the meetup in Kansas City and you're just being in the space for as long as you have been. 658 00:56:25,382 --> 00:56:32,682 I think it's just it's just good background and speaks well to newcomers, which is one of the big parts of our audience. 659 00:56:32,682 --> 00:56:42,962 So, Adam, I guess the only thing that's left on my side is if someone wants to use mana, what's the best way to go about doing that? 660 00:56:43,842 --> 00:56:47,182 Well, fortunately, there's really not a long answer to that. 661 00:56:47,262 --> 00:56:51,602 You can just download the app on either the App Store on Apple or the Google Play Store. 662 00:56:51,902 --> 00:56:54,322 Right now, those are the two places where our app lives. 663 00:56:55,282 --> 00:57:00,822 And you just hit the button that says create a wallet, and you can have a wallet running in seconds. 664 00:57:01,322 --> 00:57:04,402 And then it automatically creates everything needed for the shop as well. 665 00:57:04,442 --> 00:57:08,022 And you can just add products, items, or services if you're a business. 666 00:57:08,022 --> 00:57:34,942 And I'll also say, you know, from, you know, a financial advisor perspective, you know, if I could, you know, have the, you know, opportunity to advise the advisors, I would just say it's a great idea to recommend people acquire Bitcoin through this method, just because it is one of the most freedom preserving methods of using Bitcoin. 667 00:57:34,942 --> 00:57:41,102 providing a service in the local economy um and even spending bitcoin i think that's important too 668 00:57:41,102 --> 00:57:44,902 uh to grow the to grow the bitcoin economy and help build out the infrastructure 669 00:57:44,902 --> 00:57:52,102 that comes back to my original purpose and that is to uh give people an alternative to cbdc's as 670 00:57:52,102 --> 00:57:58,382 they come so that's what i'll say i'll leave it at that love it man well and it's an amazing 671 00:57:58,382 --> 00:58:04,802 mission to try to fight back against the cbdc you know on so i i think will come in our our 672 00:58:04,802 --> 00:58:09,262 lifetimes that were appreciative of folks like you building that kind of technology. And yeah, 673 00:58:09,302 --> 00:58:14,142 one of the things I want to emphasize that you just pointed out there, Adam, is that I think 674 00:58:14,142 --> 00:58:20,581 in an advisor seat and you want to start talking about Bitcoin, one of the best ways you can convey 675 00:58:20,581 --> 00:58:26,422 confidence to your clients is to accept Bitcoin as payment and show them be a proof point, 676 00:58:26,422 --> 00:58:32,602 maybe be their first interaction where they're actually interacting with the blockchain or 677 00:58:32,602 --> 00:58:40,102 Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. And I think that's super paramount role for us as well. And 678 00:58:40,102 --> 00:58:45,842 it's great getting to know you, Adam, and Manam more and keep on building, man. We need more stuff 679 00:58:45,842 --> 00:58:50,242 like this and appreciate you coming on the pod. Thank you very much. The pleasure was all mine. 680 00:58:50,642 --> 00:58:54,682 Appreciate talking with you guys. Thanks for having me. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Adam. All 681 00:58:54,682 --> 00:58:55,322 We'll talk to you soon. 682 00:58:55,581 --> 00:58:55,982 Take care. 683 00:59:24,682 --> 00:59:25,242 from the front.