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I like to say you can't eat a Bitcoin and you can't live in a Bitcoin.

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So at some point, Bitcoin makes up some significant portion of your net worth.

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It's great as a wealth accumulator, but it's bad as a lifestyle spender.

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You need to offer him two dollars to really use it or to realize it.

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And if you want to do that over the course of your entire life, most tax efficiently,

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I'm very convicted that our product is the most tax efficient way to live off of Bitcoin wealth.

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because you can borrow some out and sell it tax-free no matter the price in the future.

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Bitcoin is a currency on the internet.

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If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go.

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It's going to outperform everything.

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Bitcoin could eventually be worthless.

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Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.

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Bitcoin hitting a new high.

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It really has reached escape velocity.

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There is no second best.

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Who cares about Bitcoin?

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It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.

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Antisocial.

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Bitcoin is the real deal.

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Stupid.

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Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

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Immoral.

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It's going up forever, Laura.

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Fix the money.

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Fix the world.

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Wide Work is a registered investment advisor, and the opinions expressed on the show are their own and do not reflect the opinions of the Silk LLC.

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Joining us as a CPA, and the opinions expressed on the show are their own and do not reflect the opinions of trusted CPA or other affiliated firms.

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Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies.

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Investments of all risk and unless otherwise stated are not guaranteed.

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Information expressed is not taken into account your specific situation or objectives is not intended as a recommendation appropriate for any individual.

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Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax legal or investment advisor to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation.

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Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.

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Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets professional services.

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We explore how to build a financial services industry within the principles, values, and ethos of Bitcoin.

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Today we're joined by Danny Baer, Head of Asset Management and Wealth at Meanwhile.

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You won't want to miss it.

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What's up, everybody?

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Welcome back to Bitcoin for Financial Services.

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Joined by an awesome guest here today, personal friend, Danny Baer, Director of Wealth and Asset Management at Meanwhile.

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How are you doing, Danny?

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Doing well, thanks for having me on.

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It's a pleasure.

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I was particularly excited for this episode because we talk quite a bit.

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This is your thread.

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You know, we try to call on something I'm specifically interested in personally for my advisor seat.

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But just really, we try to give tip of the cap to entrepreneurs and builders in the space that are developing Bitcoin-denominated investment products.

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You know, it just makes mine and Jordan Jobs a lot easier.

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So we'll get into Meanwhile and some of the mechanics and what you guys are doing, a lot of novel stuff, which is very cool.

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But why don't you start with just giving us a bit of your Bitcoin journey, how you got into the asset class, how you got into the industry?

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Yeah, of course.

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You mentioned we're personal friends, and that's why I've been offended that you hadn't had me on yet.

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I don't think we finally made it happen.

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Yeah, no, it's a good place to start.

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And maybe I'll start a little bit backwards with Meanwhile, and then I'll get to like my Bitcoin journey.

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Meanwhile is a financial services company that uses Bitcoin as its functional currency.

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And we started with a fully licensed regular life insurance carrier where we offer institutions and individuals tax advantaged insurance products denominated in Bitcoin.

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So I'm going to start there because it actually, that's the main reason I actually ever joined Meanwhile three years ago.

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is the idea that it was a financial institution using Bitcoin as money,

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not like bolting some fiat product into and trying to use Bitcoin as like the supercharge,

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its investment returns or something like that.

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So not using Bitcoin as an asset, rather we're using Bitcoin truly as a currency.

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So my background, not dissimilar to yours, is worked in traditional finance out of college

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as an investment advisor at a big multifamily office.

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worked out of their New York office for about, I think, six years out of college.

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The firm manages like $30 billion across something like 150 to 200 client families.

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So talking $100 plus million per family.

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I was actually recruited over to the digital asset world, the broader crypto ecosystem,

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in 2022 by Digital Currents Group.

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So at that time, Digital Currents Group was building out its own multifamily office, its own wealth management firm to manage crypto native individuals' wealth, who had created significant wealth from the crypto ecosystem.

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It made sense at the time because at the time, DCG was the largest venture fund in the crypto ecosystem.

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So as the venture arm made investments in the portfolio companies and those port co-founders got liquidity, none of them wanted to hire my old firm because my old firm would tell them to sell all their crypto.

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So they just kind of kept it all wrapped under the same umbrella by referring those portfolio company founders to the wealth management arm within the DCG ecosystem.

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I thought it was a great idea.

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So I was the first wealth advisory hire there.

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And the timing was terrible.

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It couldn't have been worse.

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I started in early 2022,

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started to help build out the team there.

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And then within like two months of my first day on the job,

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the price of Bitcoin crashed 65% in large part

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because three years capital,

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the hedge fund went down with their bankruptcy filing.

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They listed Genesis Lending as their single largest creditor

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to the tune of like $1.1 billion.

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Genesis Lending was a fellow subsidiary of DCG.

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And so as Genesis Lending went bankrupt,

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DCG plugged that $1.1 billion cash hole

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on their balance sheet to try to save them,

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but then we had to cut costs other places.

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And then obviously FTX went down that fall

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and there's just broader contagion

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across the entire crypto space.

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And we actually wound that business down

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in January of 2023.

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After that point,

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I joined Meanwhile.

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So I've been with Meanwhile

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for three years.

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At this point,

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I'm the third most tenured person

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at the company.

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And I joined

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because in my one year,

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about one year at DCG,

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I got exposure to the entire

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digital asset ecosystem.

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And over those 10 or 12 months,

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the thesis for me

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was really driven home

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that there was Bitcoin

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and there was crypto.

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And I'm not,

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such a hardcore Bitcoin maxi

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where I'll spit on anything that's not Bitcoin.

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But to me, it's like crypto is technology

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that most of which will fail.

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Some will be really revolutionary

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in how we operate as a society

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and especially in financial services.

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But Bitcoin is money.

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And there was a clear and very stark distinction

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between those two things.

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And so when I was winding down,

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HQ Digital was the subsidiary of DCG

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that I was working at.

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As we wound that business down and I was looking for what was next, I really wanted to work at a company that was using Bitcoin as a currency.

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And meanwhile, it's the first company in the world that truly uses Bitcoin as a currency.

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So not only do I say we use Bitcoin as a currency, but literally our insurance carriers' externally audited financials are stated in Satoshi's.

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There's not a single dollar on the balance sheet.

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Our assets and liabilities are all in Bitcoin.

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our regulatory capitals held in Bitcoin,

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and our products exclusively are denominated in Bitcoin.

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So the reason we do all that is because we've just vacuumed out

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any relative volatility from the business.

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For us, one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin.

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It doesn't matter if the price of Bitcoin is as low as $16,000,

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which has been since the company was founded in 2022.

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It also doesn't matter if the price of Bitcoin is $126,000,

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which is our most recent peak.

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Throughout all of that price volatility,

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our operations, our solvency, the business itself haven't been impacted at all because,

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like I said, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin.

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If you're a financial professional working with Bitcoin, you know the pain of messy CSVs,

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broken cost basis, and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. Bitment fixes that.

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Bitment is the Bitcoin native accounting platform built for CPAs, bookkeepers, advisors,

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miners, and serious Bitcoin investors.

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You get clean Bitcoin bank statements,

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reliable cost basis tracking,

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full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid.

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No crypto talk, no workarounds,

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just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth.

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Create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today.

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Yeah, that's amazing, Danny.

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Thank you so much for sharing.

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A couple of very interesting things

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I want to double click on there.

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I do want to spend more time on BMI before you get a denominator,

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because we'll save that for the end.

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But when you were at this multifamily office, you're out of school,

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you kind of touched on it a little bit,

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but safe to assume that I had a pretty negative view on Bitcoin and the asset

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class at large.

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You know, I would say that, and this goes,

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this informs my personal like Bitcoin journey,

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because in 2017 during that bull run was really the first time that we had

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clients asking about Bitcoin.

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And so I always say that maybe I was a little bit hypocritical because I would regurgitate the house view when my clients would ask, which was not an investable asset class.

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You know, we structured your portfolio to like weather any types of volatility.

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You know, our clients were already rich.

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So it wasn't a question of like, how do I accumulate more wealth?

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It's how do I preserve wealth across generations?

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but to be able to like have those conversations with my clients I had to myself go down the

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rabbit hole so that really started in 2017 obviously my conviction grew high enough

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that in 2022 I left traditional finance for a role within the broader digital asset ecosystem

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but yeah so at that point throughout my time there the house view was uninvestable

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the view I think evolved to if we ever were to get exposure it'd be on the private market side

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through like investing in picks and shovels types of businesses but but no like liquid

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directional exposure to to bitcoin or any other individual token yeah I'm gonna say if you kind

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into the follow-up there but so then when you left for DCG this is something you personally have

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more conviction in and you consciously wanted to work in this part of the industry or was it more

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of like this opportunity came along and I didn't want to say no? Well, I think a combination of

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both. The first is the reason that I felt convicted to really pivot my career into the

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digital asset ecosystem is at my prior firm, like I said, we managed generational wealth. So

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I didn't have just relationships with like the patriarch and matriarch or the Gen 1 wealth creators.

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In many cases, I had clients at Gen 1, at Gen 2, at Gen 3.

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So I actually got to see like the types of questions, the types of interests that each of those generations had.

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And I've sometimes joked where when we'd have portfolio review meetings,

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you know gen one which was like the octogenarian couple who's like asking about their muni bond

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portfolio and then uh gen two is like the 50 year old who's asking about like their hedge fund

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portfolio and then gen three was like the 20 to 30 year old who wanted to know about crypto and

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cannabis and that was like the like spread of the conversations that we were having and in the you

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know it as well as anyone, but in the wealth management space, there's just been this hot

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topic of like the great wealth transfer of the many, many trillions of dollars moving

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hands from Gen 1 to Gen 2 to Gen 3.

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And from my perspective, it was a way of getting out in front of kind of where those interests

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lied or laid and getting there before the money actually hit the hands of the key decision

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makers that would want to allocate there.

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So I figured if we can help build like this defining financial firm in the crypto space just ahead of you know these generations that care about crypto exposure

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get like the decision-making power over their wealth.

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It'd be a good place to be.

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I'm still not convinced it was the wrong idea, but in a certain way, clearly.

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Yeah. Well, I think it's very sound and logical thinking.

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Quick side change.

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Something I'm curious in your opinion on that.

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I've just been asking folks about and talking more about,

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I can't remember if it was TFT Theater

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or Bitcoin for Millennials,

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but they were talking about their audience demographic breakdown.

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And it's really kind of stuck with me

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because it actually skewed like much older

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than I was anticipating.

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I think it was like 40 to 50

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was actually like their largest audience demographic.

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But then your boots on the ground personal experience,

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which is a little more intuitive.

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It was like the younger folks

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of the younger generations that were asking about, you know, the new technologies.

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Have you seen similar experiences with meanwhile?

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You know, you go to a lot of conferences, talk to a lot of people.

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Have you seen kind of an older age skew or is it still more of the younger folks?

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No, I think it's a good point.

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And I've been on Bram's show on Bitcoin for Millennials.

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And we actually talked a little bit about this.

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I've been surprised by how, you know, again, like relative to traditional insurance,

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We do life insurance or long-term insurance.

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The average policyholder in the United States for traditional whole life insurance is like 60-something years old.

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Ours is like 40.

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So it's still older than maybe I or we would have expected.

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But it is 20 years younger than the industry average, which from our perspective on an actuarial basis is amazing.

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Because we're insuring younger, healthier people who will hopefully live a lot longer.

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And there's just like this very happy, coincidental kind of overlap of passions between a lot of Bitcoiners and longevity where we're like, OK, great.

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Let's cheer that on as much as possible.

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Live as long as you can because we'll make a lot more money off of them the longer they live.

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So we're all in favor of longevity here as well.

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But I would say it's something between 40, 42 years old is our average.

237
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That's really interesting.

238
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I think that makes sense.

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00:15:06,997 --> 00:15:11,757
I think I have a similar age distribution for my clients,

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which is your average wealth management firm, a little older.

241
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Yeah, and if I can just interrupt and close the loop on this,

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what I think we, well, what we talk about fairly frequently internally at Meanwhile

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is this great opportunity that we have to really grow up with our clients.

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So those 40-year-olds who are buying our product now probably bought Bitcoin 10 years ago as like a single 30-year-old.

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And now they're 40 with a family.

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Their lives look significantly different.

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And we get like the distinct privilege of kind of like growing up with it.

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We're like the next step they take when they look at their life and say, oh, my life, my responsibilities have materially changed.

249
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and now I need to like go from this like YOLO,

250
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throw some money at this thing

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and it worked out and made me much money

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to like how do I become a responsible steward

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of significant wealth

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and how do I protect my loved ones over time?

255
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And it's like, it's a real,

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it's a pleasure to get to talk to those people

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because they're solving for like a long-term need and problem.

258
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And it's not dissimilar from traditional wealth management.

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my past career and your current career,

260
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we're like, it's a great privilege

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to be able to sit at that intersection

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of like helping people think through

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how to take care of the people they love the most

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for the long term.

265
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So that's been great.

266
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Well, it really is.

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I'm so happy you brought that up

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because I absolutely love how you are thinking about that,

269
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how you framed it.

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That's something we talk to our clients a lot about

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and shout out Rob Warren.

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I got this framing from him,

273
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but whether we like it or not,

274
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we're the first generation of Bitcoiners.

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So it's like our responsibility

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to make sure we're good stewards of this asset,

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you know, this finite asset.

278
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You know, there's obviously a lot of risk of loss

279
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if you, you know, poorly handle your custody solutions.

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And so we spent a lot of time focusing on that

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and just getting like mentally prepared

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to step into those shoes.

283
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Obviously, you know, meanwhile,

284
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is a phenomenal product to help with that.

285
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And even more on the meat and potatoes,

286
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I want to circle back to, you know,

287
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or meanwhile, be fully denominated in Bitcoin.

288
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I was on your guys' website.

289
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doing some research for this.

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And I thought I had heard this,

291
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so it was good to actually verify

292
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before I started spewing misinformation on the pod.

293
00:17:34,717 --> 00:17:36,357
But as of 2024,

294
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you guys were the only financial services firm

295
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that was fully audited

296
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and denominated all their books in Bitcoin.

297
00:17:43,237 --> 00:17:43,777
Is that correct?

298
00:17:44,617 --> 00:17:45,117
Yeah, yeah.

299
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So to our knowledge,

300
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and my lawyers have to say that I have to caveat

301
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with to our knowledge,

302
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but we are the only,

303
00:17:53,017 --> 00:17:56,057
I like to say we are the only truly,

304
00:17:56,437 --> 00:18:02,197
denominated or only company truly denominated in Bitcoin in the world because we are the only one

305
00:18:02,197 --> 00:18:08,957
that publicly states externally audited financials in Bitcoin. So, and again, the reason we do that

306
00:18:08,957 --> 00:18:14,637
is because we sell insurance products, which people buy because they have these amazing tax

307
00:18:14,637 --> 00:18:20,597
advantages because they are literally just life insurance products. But they buy them in Bitcoin,

308
00:18:20,717 --> 00:18:25,077
we pay out in Bitcoin, we reserve for that because we're licensed to regular life insurance carrier,

309
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We have to hold a bunch of regulatory capital to offset any risks that we're taking and to pay out claims.

310
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And it's all in Bitcoin.

311
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So we don't take on any relative volatility or currency risk.

312
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If you give us 10 Bitcoin, we promise you 20 Bitcoin when you die.

313
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It doesn't matter if Bitcoin is $16,000 or $16 million.

314
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That 10 becomes 20.

315
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And because it's whole life insurance, the payout and the policy loans and the growth, it's all tax free.

316
00:18:55,077 --> 00:19:02,157
and hey well um again tip of the cap for you guys are taking that on and it's this funny

317
00:19:02,157 --> 00:19:09,917
justification for me because at one side it seems so obvious but then on the other clearly this is

318
00:19:09,917 --> 00:19:16,177
so novel and you guys are the first ones doing it and i think by doing it you actually create like a

319
00:19:16,177 --> 00:19:23,577
true investment product for bitcoiners i think you personally passes the bitcoin smell test you

320
00:19:23,577 --> 00:19:27,857
know i get really scrupled with other different service providers or you know products i'd recommend

321
00:19:27,857 --> 00:19:33,137
to clients you know as maxless myself you know it's like is this really like the bitcoin way i

322
00:19:33,137 --> 00:19:37,277
think you guys are clearly doing that by denying the whole thing in bitcoin but there aren't really

323
00:19:37,277 --> 00:19:42,217
a lot of folks clearly that are willing to do that and then you end up with all these possibilities

324
00:19:42,217 --> 00:19:46,637
for shenanigans you know duration mismatch currency mismatch and then you introduce like

325
00:19:46,637 --> 00:19:51,397
all this unnecessary risk as opposed to just offering a bitcoin product and did not be in

326
00:19:51,397 --> 00:19:55,337
Bitcoin. Like, as you said, it's just money at the end of the day. Like, why are we overthinking this?

327
00:19:56,197 --> 00:20:00,357
Yeah, the beauty of it is, so the reason that we started with whole life insurance,

328
00:20:00,537 --> 00:20:07,437
kind of to your point just now, is that for us, it rhymed the most with like the

329
00:20:07,437 --> 00:20:14,837
hodl mantra of Bitquitters. I get asked fairly frequently when or if we will offer a term life

330
00:20:14,837 --> 00:20:19,157
insurance policy. And at some point we will. You know, we're a fully licensed regular life

331
00:20:19,157 --> 00:20:23,517
insurance carrier, we aspire to bring to market every life insurance product that you can imagine

332
00:20:23,517 --> 00:20:29,917
from whole life to term life, to annuities, to key man, to et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

333
00:20:31,137 --> 00:20:38,517
Long list. But we started with whole life because people, we didn't want to ask people to send us

334
00:20:38,517 --> 00:20:45,617
Bitcoin for no guarantee of anything in return. Best case scenario for both you, the customer,

335
00:20:45,617 --> 00:20:50,797
and us, the insurance carriers, if you buy term, you outlive your term and you pay us for nothing

336
00:20:50,797 --> 00:20:56,357
except for peace of mind, I suppose. Whereas whole life insurance, doesn't matter if you

337
00:20:56,357 --> 00:21:01,057
get hit by a bus the next day or if you live for 100 more years, you will receive the payout,

338
00:21:01,057 --> 00:21:06,697
which is great. But people in the United States don't typically buy whole life insurance.

339
00:21:07,937 --> 00:21:10,937
Well, certainly fewer people own whole life insurance than term life insurance in the United

340
00:21:10,937 --> 00:21:15,217
States. But the primary drivers of whole life insurance in the United States isn't even

341
00:21:15,217 --> 00:21:20,397
necessarily the death benefit because the death benefit is on a multiples basis, lower than term

342
00:21:20,397 --> 00:21:27,317
life insurance. But folks buy it for tax reasons and managing money for ultra high net worth family

343
00:21:27,317 --> 00:21:34,477
offices. I saw a good share of this, but whole life insurance is really utilized by either like

344
00:21:34,477 --> 00:21:40,037
real estate investors or ultra high net worth individuals or family offices because it has

345
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amazing tax benefits baked in.

346
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And those tax benefits include the payout,

347
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which is guaranteed,

348
00:21:47,377 --> 00:21:48,237
goes to the beneficiaries,

349
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income and capital gains tax-free.

350
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The growth of the policy itself

351
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compounds tax-free.

352
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And I think the big one

353
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for most of our policyholders

354
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is that you can use whole life,

355
00:22:01,377 --> 00:22:04,117
the value of your whole life insurance policy

356
00:22:04,117 --> 00:22:05,937
during your life as collateral

357
00:22:05,937 --> 00:22:07,297
to borrow against tax-free.

358
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Because everything that we do is in Bitcoin,

359
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That means that if my policy at some point is worth 10 Bitcoin, we'll offer a 90% loan-to-value ratio against that.

360
00:22:17,317 --> 00:22:25,197
So a policyholder could pull 9 Bitcoin out, not dollars, but 10 Bitcoin collateral, they pull 9 Bitcoin out.

361
00:22:25,577 --> 00:22:34,917
But because it's a tax-free policy loan, those 9 Bitcoin that they receive get assigned a cost basis set at the price of Bitcoin at the time of the loan.

362
00:22:34,917 --> 00:22:40,477
that means that if the price bitcoin goes to a million dollars they could borrow in this example

363
00:22:40,477 --> 00:22:46,577
nine bitcoin out sell those nine bitcoin for nine million dollars total and they'd owe zero capital

364
00:22:46,577 --> 00:22:51,717
gains tax on that sale because they're selling those nine bitcoin at their assigned cost basis

365
00:22:51,717 --> 00:22:58,137
they also aren't taking any margin call risk because again their loan is nine bitcoin against

366
00:22:58,137 --> 00:23:02,797
ten bitcoins of collateral it's not nine million dollars against ten million dollars worth of

367
00:23:02,797 --> 00:23:07,717
Bitcoin a collateral. So no matter what the price of Bitcoin does, their loan remains nine Bitcoin

368
00:23:07,717 --> 00:23:14,817
against 10 Bitcoin collateral, no margin call risk ever. In fact, if the price of Bitcoin drops,

369
00:23:14,997 --> 00:23:18,577
it's actually better for them because they can take their cash proceeds, those $9 million,

370
00:23:19,057 --> 00:23:22,597
and they can buy cheaper Bitcoin, repay their nine Bitcoin loan cheaper Bitcoin.

371
00:23:23,597 --> 00:23:28,197
But if the price of Bitcoin goes up forever, then they also are protected because they never have to

372
00:23:28,197 --> 00:23:34,017
pay the policy loan back because as is the case with normal life insurance as well if you never

373
00:23:34,017 --> 00:23:38,417
repay your life insurance policy loan whenever you die the payout of the life insurance policy

374
00:23:38,417 --> 00:23:44,517
just covers any outstanding loan balance so our perspective and this is what we talked to many of

375
00:23:44,517 --> 00:23:50,177
our policyholders about is uh i like to say you can't eat a bitcoin and you can't live in a bitcoin

376
00:23:50,177 --> 00:23:55,437
so at some point bitcoin makes up some significant portion of your net worth it's a great as a wealth

377
00:23:55,437 --> 00:24:02,857
accumulator but it's bad as a like lifestyle spender you need to offer empty dollars um to

378
00:24:02,857 --> 00:24:08,037
really use it or to realize it and if you want to do that over the course of your entire life

379
00:24:08,037 --> 00:24:13,857
most tax efficiently i'm very convicted that our product is the most tax efficient way to live off

380
00:24:13,857 --> 00:24:19,357
bitcoin wealth because you can borrow some out and sell it tax-free no matter the price in the future

381
00:24:19,357 --> 00:24:29,677
totally it really is amazing and awesome product and you have a lot of hot takes out there about

382
00:24:29,677 --> 00:24:34,177
you know insurance you know i got into this industry is one of the things that kind of

383
00:24:34,177 --> 00:24:40,057
you gave me a i think you know my industry in particular gets a little bit of a bad rap for

384
00:24:40,057 --> 00:24:44,277
trying to force you know life insurance sums people's throat you know i remember when i was

385
00:24:44,277 --> 00:24:49,737
trying to get licensed like there was a shop so like yeah you know we'll let you sit for your

386
00:24:49,737 --> 00:24:55,597
your series seven if you sell like 10 life insurance policies first i was like okay i see

387
00:24:55,597 --> 00:25:00,597
how this works like i get it yeah i'm technically you know licensed to do so i just like donor

388
00:25:00,597 --> 00:25:05,277
outsource a lot of times if my clients need it just because it's like i don't want to like go

389
00:25:05,277 --> 00:25:09,597
down this road then i learned about meanwhile i was like shoot like i'm gonna have to swallow my

390
00:25:09,597 --> 00:25:13,757
pride a little bit like look into this and i think yeah the fact that he was fully dominant

391
00:25:13,757 --> 00:25:15,917
Bitcoin really changes the dynamics.

392
00:25:15,917 --> 00:25:20,357
And, you know, this is, I think, a great example of something I've talked to a lot about.

393
00:25:20,357 --> 00:25:24,717
So Bitcoin is a lot of times just get jaded anytime, like finance or

394
00:25:24,717 --> 00:25:28,157
different financial products are brought up and it's like, oh, it's fiat, it's fiat.

395
00:25:28,157 --> 00:25:42,714
You know it like okay well what if we just applied life insurance or life insurance in this case to Bitcoin on Bitcoin standard And it like okay well now we can reap the rewards of this tried and true instrument that been around for a long time

396
00:25:42,714 --> 00:25:49,674
and it really can you know benefit you but let's get into mechanically how this works you know

397
00:25:49,674 --> 00:25:54,714
there's always kind of like the boogeyman of the room um when it comes to you know earning more

398
00:25:54,714 --> 00:26:00,654
Bitcoin, I've found like very few legitimate ways to earn a Bitcoin denominated yield. So

399
00:26:00,654 --> 00:26:07,234
I'm a customer. Meanwhile, I put Bitcoin in, I have a certain death benefit. Like how is,

400
00:26:07,234 --> 00:26:14,134
you know, my Bitcoin growing within that policy? Yeah, great question. So before I get into like

401
00:26:14,134 --> 00:26:19,514
the asset management side of our business, I think it's important to know the simplicity of

402
00:26:19,514 --> 00:26:25,334
our product. So we like to say that we basically took a whole life insurance policy from like the

403
00:26:25,334 --> 00:26:30,774
1830s and changed the word dollars to Bitcoin. So I think that part of the reason that you mentioned

404
00:26:30,774 --> 00:26:37,794
that like life insurance as an industry can kind of get frowned upon or looked down on by

405
00:26:37,794 --> 00:26:44,674
individuals or feel a little bit like salesy and slimy is because I think many insurance carriers

406
00:26:44,674 --> 00:26:50,434
out there have made their products needlessly complicated so that they can charge higher

407
00:26:50,434 --> 00:26:52,634
spreads and earn more money.

408
00:26:54,094 --> 00:26:59,314
Really, the reason is if I'm an agent and I'm approached by two different carriers who

409
00:26:59,314 --> 00:27:03,994
fundamentally sell the same thing, those carriers are incentivized to make their product more

410
00:27:03,994 --> 00:27:08,714
expensive so they can pay the agent more money to sell their product as opposed to their

411
00:27:08,714 --> 00:27:09,114
competitors.

412
00:27:10,394 --> 00:27:14,314
Because we're the only people doing this, we've stripped it all back down to its very

413
00:27:14,314 --> 00:27:21,394
basic, most basic bones. So it really is about as simple of a product, if you just remove the

414
00:27:21,394 --> 00:27:25,954
currency consideration, it's as simple a product in the world as you'll find from LifeInsurer.

415
00:27:26,634 --> 00:27:34,134
Now, in terms of mechanically, how it works is our policy structure is what's called a 10-pay,

416
00:27:34,814 --> 00:27:41,454
meaning our policyholders pay their premiums 10 times over 10 years. Then after 10 years,

417
00:27:41,454 --> 00:27:45,794
they're done paying. They never have to pay another premium. They can send us their Bitcoin

418
00:27:45,794 --> 00:27:50,714
or their premiums ahead of schedule. But the policy is actually funded. The Bitcoin goes

419
00:27:50,714 --> 00:27:55,494
into the contract over 10 years. So you would come to us and you would tell us, I want to buy

420
00:27:55,494 --> 00:28:02,854
a policy and I'm willing to pay however many Bitcoin total. And then you just pay always one

421
00:28:02,854 --> 00:28:07,514
tenth of that per year for 10 years. So you could say, I want to pay one Bitcoin total,

422
00:28:07,514 --> 00:28:12,294
in which case you'd pay 0.1 bitcoin per year for 10 years you could say i want to pay 10 bitcoins

423
00:28:12,294 --> 00:28:15,834
total you know it's one bitcoin per year for 10 years you could say i want to pay 30 bitcoins total

424
00:28:15,834 --> 00:28:22,254
you know it's three bitcoins per year for for 10 years um we reverse engineer where in traditional

425
00:28:22,254 --> 00:28:26,934
insurance you say i want a million dollars of coverage and then the insurance carrier does

426
00:28:26,934 --> 00:28:31,114
your underwriting tells you how much you own premium we reverse engineer it just because

427
00:28:31,114 --> 00:28:35,274
most bitcoiners like have a number of bitcoin and they have an idea of how much they're willing to

428
00:28:35,274 --> 00:28:40,394
spend on something so we say how much are you willing to spend we then we do the same underwriting

429
00:28:40,394 --> 00:28:46,394
and then we just it's the same equation just backwards so we we then say for 10 bitcoins of

430
00:28:46,394 --> 00:28:53,174
premium you'll get 15 or 20 bitcoins of death benefit and that ratio of premiums you pay to

431
00:28:53,174 --> 00:28:57,994
the death benefit that we pay out is dependent on how old you are how healthy you are whether or not

432
00:28:57,994 --> 00:29:04,634
you smoke um same same underrating basic underrating that any other carrier does uh ours is

433
00:29:04,634 --> 00:29:08,674
all done online so you don't have to go to a doctor or get blood work done or urine or anything

434
00:29:08,674 --> 00:29:16,314
like that it's all done online um after that it's just you you sign the contract and then as soon as

435
00:29:16,314 --> 00:29:21,034
we receive your first premium the first of the 10 premiums as soon as we receive your first premium

436
00:29:21,034 --> 00:29:27,534
the policy is in force so um you'll owe in the example of you owe one bitcoin per year for 10

437
00:29:27,534 --> 00:29:33,914
years you could send us one bitcoin on day one um we might tell you that your death benefits 15 to 20

438
00:29:33,914 --> 00:29:38,634
Bitcoin. And if you walked out your house the next day, you got hit by a bus.

439
00:29:39,694 --> 00:29:44,474
You paid as one of the 10, but your beneficiaries would receive all 15 or 20.

440
00:29:44,874 --> 00:29:46,634
It's the death benefit is guaranteed.

441
00:29:47,094 --> 00:29:52,074
You don't receive some pro rata portion based on how much you've paid of what you owe as in total.

442
00:29:52,754 --> 00:29:54,714
The payout is a fixed guarantee.

443
00:29:57,274 --> 00:30:01,554
The policy, this might be a little bit more technical, but for the insurance folks listening.

444
00:30:01,554 --> 00:30:28,774
Yeah, the policy. So because it's structured as a 10 pay, it qualifies as what's called a non-MEC or non-modified domic contract, which under the Internal Revenue Code is required to be able to take those tax free policy loans. So that's really the important piece. It's why we structured it as a 10 pay. We don't allow people just to pay one premium and be done paying. We want them to be able to take those policy loans because that for us is like really the primary benefit of the policy.

445
00:30:28,774 --> 00:30:37,594
and the policy itself endows at age 100 which means that the growth of the value of the policy

446
00:30:37,594 --> 00:30:45,534
reaches the death benefit in the insured individuals age 100 so i bought a policy

447
00:30:45,534 --> 00:30:49,074
for every one bitcoin that i put in i got two bitcoins out

448
00:30:49,074 --> 00:30:56,954
the my policy itself grows over my lifetime and that compounded growth uh or that growth

449
00:30:56,954 --> 00:31:02,954
compounds tax-free, but the value of my policy will equal my death benefit when I'm age 100.

450
00:31:04,554 --> 00:31:09,294
So at some point during my life, I'll be able to borrow out more than I ever paid in,

451
00:31:09,754 --> 00:31:15,054
because I'm amortizing to twice as much Bitcoin that I paid in. So I can borrow more than I paid

452
00:31:15,054 --> 00:31:20,794
in during my life. And if I never repay that loan, then when I die, it'll just net out against the

453
00:31:20,794 --> 00:31:28,274
pay out of my policy but um if i do repay it then then my my uh my policy the death benefit fully

454
00:31:28,274 --> 00:31:34,154
pays out to my beneficiaries and the last thing that i would say on the mechanics is um an

455
00:31:34,154 --> 00:31:40,594
unintended benefit really for us is it solves a problem that every bitcoiner has in that it helps

456
00:31:40,594 --> 00:31:47,914
with inheritance planning if i got hit by a bus tomorrow i've no doubt in my mind that my loved

457
00:31:47,914 --> 00:31:54,074
ones would not be able to access my cold storage bitcoin no doubt they just wouldn't be able to do

458
00:31:54,074 --> 00:31:59,494
it um and it doesn't matter how pretty of a treasure map i draw with my crayon on the kitchen

459
00:31:59,494 --> 00:32:05,354
table you're probably not going to be able to do it so for me i actually and i'm in a unique

460
00:32:05,354 --> 00:32:10,234
situation because i work at the company and like i know how highly regulated we are and and the

461
00:32:10,234 --> 00:32:14,414
financial strength and we're not going to like run away with anyone's bitcoin so i trust the company

462
00:32:14,414 --> 00:32:16,534
more than the average person should or does.

463
00:32:16,834 --> 00:32:18,634
But I put all of my Bitcoin in

464
00:32:18,634 --> 00:32:19,894
because I just said, great.

465
00:32:20,554 --> 00:32:22,094
I'm getting the tax advantages

466
00:32:22,094 --> 00:32:24,114
of all the growth and the loans in the future.

467
00:32:25,874 --> 00:32:26,454
That's good.

468
00:32:26,554 --> 00:32:27,854
I'm doubling the number of Bitcoin

469
00:32:27,854 --> 00:32:29,434
that ultimately I could pass on.

470
00:32:30,054 --> 00:32:32,274
But the greatest peace of mind

471
00:32:32,274 --> 00:32:33,974
that it provided me is that my wife,

472
00:32:34,074 --> 00:32:34,554
when I die,

473
00:32:34,754 --> 00:32:36,074
simply has to submit a claim

474
00:32:36,074 --> 00:32:37,014
to a life insurance carrier.

475
00:32:38,214 --> 00:32:39,574
And then she can create,

476
00:32:39,774 --> 00:32:42,174
she can open a brand new account on an exchange

477
00:32:42,174 --> 00:32:44,374
or set up in her own wallet or whatever.

478
00:32:44,414 --> 00:32:46,754
and receive the death benefit paid out for her.

479
00:32:47,094 --> 00:32:51,614
She doesn't need to understand my self-custodial setup or structure

480
00:32:51,614 --> 00:32:54,574
to be able to get the Bitcoin if I got hit by a bus.

481
00:32:54,814 --> 00:32:58,254
Now, I'm not recommending anyone put all their Bitcoin in.

482
00:32:58,894 --> 00:33:01,174
Like I said, I am in a unique situation

483
00:33:01,174 --> 00:33:03,134
where I can probably trust the company more than anyone else.

484
00:33:03,874 --> 00:33:07,154
But for some people, it's a good way to diversify

485
00:33:07,154 --> 00:33:09,294
some of their Bitcoin custody

486
00:33:09,294 --> 00:33:12,254
to ensure that at least some portion of their stack passes on.

487
00:33:12,254 --> 00:33:17,694
certainly well i'm happy you brought that up and you must have talked to

488
00:33:17,694 --> 00:33:20,934
one of my clients because we do recommend cranes for our treasure maps

489
00:33:20,934 --> 00:33:27,814
perfect just gotta stay with some fires yeah you don't want it to melt

490
00:33:27,814 --> 00:33:34,994
this episode is brought to you by satoshi paccioli a full service accounting and tax

491
00:33:34,994 --> 00:33:39,594
firm built for the bitcoin economy if you run a bitcoin business mine bitcoin or invest in it

492
00:33:39,594 --> 00:33:42,494
you need advisors who actually understand how this industry works.

493
00:33:42,994 --> 00:33:46,654
Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance,

494
00:33:46,794 --> 00:33:49,954
and strategic planning for Bitcoin-focused companies and individuals.

495
00:33:50,314 --> 00:33:52,854
They speak the language of Bitcoiners and help you stay compliant

496
00:33:52,854 --> 00:33:54,134
while building for the long term.

497
00:33:54,494 --> 00:33:58,594
To learn more or book a consultation, visit satoshipacioli.com.

498
00:34:01,294 --> 00:34:03,854
Yeah, Visible 8, the whole nine yards.

499
00:34:04,774 --> 00:34:05,674
But it is.

500
00:34:05,674 --> 00:34:08,574
That's one of my many conversations with clients is,

501
00:34:08,574 --> 00:34:12,134
like how do we make sure this Bitcoin gets to, you know,

502
00:34:12,254 --> 00:34:13,574
its intended benefactories.

503
00:34:14,094 --> 00:34:16,994
And it's obviously going to be a unique asset class

504
00:34:16,994 --> 00:34:18,054
when it comes to that.

505
00:34:18,114 --> 00:34:20,534
It's not as simple as, you know, your stock and bond portfolio.

506
00:34:21,134 --> 00:34:26,214
So I think that is a great concern or, you know,

507
00:34:26,214 --> 00:34:28,014
factor you guys are solving for there.

508
00:34:28,014 --> 00:34:31,714
And then, you know, one of the things I encounter quite a bit,

509
00:34:31,814 --> 00:34:34,774
you know, we focus a lot on self-custody at my practice,

510
00:34:34,774 --> 00:34:37,934
like understanding the trade-offs,

511
00:34:38,694 --> 00:34:40,014
different custody solutions.

512
00:34:40,334 --> 00:34:41,894
If we want to take advantage

513
00:34:41,894 --> 00:34:45,494
of new and emerging financial services products,

514
00:34:45,614 --> 00:34:47,694
whether that's a standard Bitcoin collateralized loan,

515
00:34:48,034 --> 00:34:50,114
whether it's a whole life insurance policy.

516
00:34:50,214 --> 00:34:52,354
Meanwhile, how are you guys facilitating

517
00:34:52,354 --> 00:34:53,594
the custody of the Bitcoin?

518
00:34:54,734 --> 00:34:57,294
So we use Anchorage Digital today

519
00:34:57,294 --> 00:34:59,214
as our primary custody provider.

520
00:34:59,554 --> 00:35:02,474
So we have an institutional relationship with them.

521
00:35:02,474 --> 00:35:04,994
every time we sell a life insurance policy,

522
00:35:04,994 --> 00:35:07,654
we actually open a new vault at Anchorage

523
00:35:07,654 --> 00:35:09,394
and those premium payments get sent

524
00:35:09,394 --> 00:35:10,694
that policy's vault.

525
00:35:11,574 --> 00:35:12,294
Segregated vault.

526
00:35:12,794 --> 00:35:13,714
Segregated vault, yeah.

527
00:35:13,894 --> 00:35:15,054
So to be clear,

528
00:35:15,314 --> 00:35:16,934
the payments go into a segregated vault.

529
00:35:17,834 --> 00:35:19,034
But after that,

530
00:35:19,594 --> 00:35:22,274
for the product to qualify as whole life insurance

531
00:35:22,274 --> 00:35:23,714
under the internal revenue code,

532
00:35:23,754 --> 00:35:24,574
it has to be what's called

533
00:35:24,574 --> 00:35:25,814
the general ledger product.

534
00:35:26,074 --> 00:35:27,994
So it does have to like enter

535
00:35:27,994 --> 00:35:30,274
into our corporate account

536
00:35:30,274 --> 00:35:34,434
for our policyholders to get those tax benefits.

537
00:35:34,954 --> 00:35:36,914
So I don't want to mislead anyone by saying,

538
00:35:37,014 --> 00:35:38,534
like, you're going to pay it into a segregated vault

539
00:35:38,534 --> 00:35:39,814
and then it's going to sit there segregated.

540
00:35:40,534 --> 00:35:41,474
That's not the case.

541
00:35:41,654 --> 00:35:42,794
We have to move it over.

542
00:35:42,974 --> 00:35:47,074
We also have to hold a lot of regulatory capital

543
00:35:47,074 --> 00:35:48,934
that we also obviously hold with Bitcoin.

544
00:35:49,694 --> 00:35:51,254
That's held in our corporate accounts.

545
00:35:51,874 --> 00:35:53,614
And then anytime we do anything

546
00:35:53,614 --> 00:35:55,554
where that puts Bitcoin at risk,

547
00:35:55,554 --> 00:35:57,554
so even just selling a life insurance policy,

548
00:35:57,554 --> 00:36:02,394
because if we if why buys a life insurance policy and then gets hit by a bus the next day

549
00:36:02,394 --> 00:36:05,894
we put bitcoin at risk because we have to pay out more than what you paid us

550
00:36:05,894 --> 00:36:10,774
so every time we sell a life insurance policy we actually have to hold more of our own bitcoin as

551
00:36:10,774 --> 00:36:17,854
reserve it's the main reason we've raised so much money is not to like buy a private jet

552
00:36:17,854 --> 00:36:22,414
although that would have been nice uh it's to capitalize the insurance carrier so that we have

553
00:36:22,414 --> 00:36:27,174
enough regulatory capital to continue to go out and sell more and more life insurance policies

554
00:36:27,174 --> 00:36:35,614
So there's, for our regulator, there's like required solvency ratios and economic substance requirements.

555
00:36:36,354 --> 00:36:42,854
And we have to, we comply with the exact same requirements as any other insurance carrier based in Bermuda.

556
00:36:43,914 --> 00:36:45,934
And I should say Bermuda is not the Bahamas.

557
00:36:46,834 --> 00:36:50,594
Bermuda is like, if anyone works in insurance, it's like the risk capital of the world.

558
00:36:51,054 --> 00:36:56,814
Chubb International, AIG, Swiss Reinsurance, Munich Reinsurance, big global insurance carriers.

559
00:36:57,174 --> 00:37:01,614
based in Bermuda and happy coincidence,

560
00:37:02,214 --> 00:37:03,554
Coinbase International is in Bermuda.

561
00:37:03,734 --> 00:37:04,634
Jack Dorsey's the block,

562
00:37:04,714 --> 00:37:06,354
which has been in the news a lot

563
00:37:06,354 --> 00:37:07,894
over the last couple of weeks there in Bermuda.

564
00:37:08,114 --> 00:37:10,594
So for us, it's like the world leader

565
00:37:10,594 --> 00:37:11,594
in insurance regulation,

566
00:37:11,774 --> 00:37:13,794
but then also this growing practice

567
00:37:13,794 --> 00:37:16,074
for digital asset regulation as well

568
00:37:16,074 --> 00:37:19,374
makes them kind of like the perfect jurisdiction

569
00:37:19,374 --> 00:37:20,974
for us to operate in.

570
00:37:22,134 --> 00:37:23,094
Yeah, that's amazing.

571
00:37:23,094 --> 00:37:26,674
I do want to experience that.

572
00:37:27,174 --> 00:37:36,394
just on the mechanic side of things yeah i think thank you for that detailed layout i think that's

573
00:37:36,394 --> 00:37:42,074
super important for you know not only advisors to fully understand like the flow of funds and how

574
00:37:42,074 --> 00:37:46,034
you know people's bitcoin will be treated but you know for policy holders to you know understand that

575
00:37:46,034 --> 00:37:51,754
as well and so it's my understanding then when you know bitcoin gets deposited in your guys's

576
00:37:51,754 --> 00:37:57,414
corporate account, like you're able to use that pooled capital to generate a yield on Bitcoin.

577
00:37:57,514 --> 00:38:02,934
Is that correct? Yeah, exactly. So the exact same way that any other insurance carrier operates,

578
00:38:02,934 --> 00:38:09,774
we receive premiums in the door. We have long dated promises. So we have the benefit of duration

579
00:38:09,774 --> 00:38:17,074
or like long-term assets. And so we deploy the premiums that get paid in to grow that number of

580
00:38:17,074 --> 00:38:30,471
Bitcoin or traditional insurance would be dollars to be able to cover our long promise And so implicitly in our policy just to get into the numbers implicitly in our policy we guarantee about a 2 growth year over year

581
00:38:30,471 --> 00:38:31,731
in Bitcoin terms.

582
00:38:32,251 --> 00:38:33,551
So again, dollars don't matter.

583
00:38:33,631 --> 00:38:34,871
It doesn't matter what the price of Bitcoin is.

584
00:38:35,711 --> 00:38:38,012
We turn 100 Bitcoin into 102 Bitcoin

585
00:38:38,012 --> 00:38:38,891
over the course of a year.

586
00:38:39,711 --> 00:38:41,811
That's our guarantee to our policyholders.

587
00:38:43,311 --> 00:38:47,871
We as a business try to get about 3% returns

588
00:38:47,871 --> 00:38:50,391
because it's a spread-based business.

589
00:38:50,651 --> 00:38:51,771
We promise you 2%.

590
00:38:51,771 --> 00:38:53,051
We get 3%.

591
00:38:53,051 --> 00:38:54,391
We pass two of those on to you

592
00:38:54,391 --> 00:38:56,032
and that 1% spread is how we make money.

593
00:38:56,431 --> 00:38:59,651
Same way that Northwestern Mutual

594
00:38:59,651 --> 00:39:01,331
guarantees you 5%.

595
00:39:01,331 --> 00:39:02,492
I always pick on Northwestern

596
00:39:02,492 --> 00:39:03,631
because they're one of our biggest investors.

597
00:39:04,291 --> 00:39:08,391
But they guarantee you 5%.

598
00:39:08,391 --> 00:39:10,871
They themselves go out and get 7% returns

599
00:39:10,871 --> 00:39:12,311
over a long period of time,

600
00:39:13,191 --> 00:39:13,771
annualized.

601
00:39:13,851 --> 00:39:15,571
And so they keep 2% spread for themselves.

602
00:39:15,571 --> 00:39:23,211
It's like the most basic elementary explanation of how a life insurance company selling whole life insurance makes money.

603
00:39:23,351 --> 00:39:24,611
It's a spread-based business.

604
00:39:24,771 --> 00:39:26,211
So how do we get 3%?

605
00:39:26,331 --> 00:39:31,571
Because I will be the first person to tell you that the risk-free rate of return in Bitcoin is 0%.

606
00:39:32,091 --> 00:39:38,791
And I actually think that there are a lot of businesses out there, corporates out there,

607
00:39:38,791 --> 00:39:44,691
who mislead people by talking about Bitcoin yield that isn't actually Bitcoin yield.

608
00:39:45,571 --> 00:39:50,671
I would argue that what strategy does is not Bitcoin yield.

609
00:39:51,091 --> 00:40:01,012
It is getting yield on your Bitcoin or using your Bitcoin to get dollar yields to maybe buy more Bitcoin with.

610
00:40:01,492 --> 00:40:03,851
But it is not turning Bitcoin into more Bitcoin.

611
00:40:03,851 --> 00:40:08,211
It is turning Bitcoin into dollars and then using those dollars to buy more Bitcoin.

612
00:40:09,032 --> 00:40:12,211
So we get Bitcoin yield.

613
00:40:12,211 --> 00:40:20,051
The primary way that we do that today is through a product that we created that is simply a tax arbitrage.

614
00:40:21,351 --> 00:40:35,512
So there are businesses, a Bitcoin miner is the easiest example here, but it's really any individual or institution in the world who wants to sell Bitcoin in order to create more Bitcoin.

615
00:40:35,811 --> 00:40:39,671
So a miner is a good example because they cash flow in Bitcoin, but all their expenses are in dollars.

616
00:40:40,111 --> 00:40:41,911
So they have to pay for their power in dollars.

617
00:40:42,031 --> 00:40:43,371
They have to pay for their machines in dollars.

618
00:40:43,492 --> 00:40:44,751
They have to pay their payroll in dollars.

619
00:40:44,891 --> 00:40:47,651
Their auditors and their lawyers and whatever.

620
00:40:48,111 --> 00:40:49,031
All their expenses are in dollars.

621
00:40:49,371 --> 00:40:55,051
So they mine Bitcoin, they sell it to pay for those expenses in order to be able to mine more Bitcoin in the future.

622
00:40:55,711 --> 00:41:01,211
Well, if they're sitting on a big stack of Bitcoin that they mined over the last 10 years,

623
00:41:01,691 --> 00:41:07,931
they don't want to sell their lowest cost basis or their oldest Bitcoin to pay those dollar expenses

624
00:41:07,931 --> 00:41:11,871
because then they're triggering, in the example of a corporate,

625
00:41:11,992 --> 00:41:14,131
they're triggering 21% corporate capital gains tax

626
00:41:14,131 --> 00:41:16,391
on the sale of those low-cost basis of Bitcoin.

627
00:41:17,331 --> 00:41:21,351
As an individual, your taxes will be higher depending on your tax bracket,

628
00:41:22,031 --> 00:41:25,012
but you could trigger 25% long-term capital gains,

629
00:41:25,111 --> 00:41:29,651
24% long-term capital gains tax on a sale of Bitcoin if you need to sell it.

630
00:41:30,151 --> 00:41:34,531
So we have a product where we essentially swap Bitcoin with the counterparty.

631
00:41:35,091 --> 00:41:36,331
They send us 100 Bitcoin.

632
00:41:36,331 --> 00:41:45,531
we send them 96.5 bitcoin back that 3.5 bitcoin spread is our fee that we take so we charge a

633
00:41:45,531 --> 00:41:51,411
three and a half percent as opposed to 21 corporate capital gains um the 96 and a half that we send

634
00:41:51,411 --> 00:41:58,651
them has new cost basis so they can sell it tax-free to go buy more machines if you're a

635
00:41:58,651 --> 00:42:04,951
miner or to invest in something else if you're an investor or whatever else um of the hundred that

636
00:42:04,951 --> 00:42:09,992
they sent us, like I said, we take three and a half. The other 96 and a half does sit in a

637
00:42:09,992 --> 00:42:15,651
segregated vault, non-rehypothecated with any other Bitcoin. So it just sits there untouched,

638
00:42:16,051 --> 00:42:20,451
unmixed for the court over the course of a year. And then at the end of the year,

639
00:42:20,451 --> 00:42:25,811
what they would do is they would send us 96 and a half new Bitcoin in exchange for their original

640
00:42:25,811 --> 00:42:33,512
low cost basis, 96.5 Bitcoin back. So they like it because it's a fully collateralized,

641
00:42:33,512 --> 00:42:38,191
non-rehypothecated loan, it feels like, structurally not a loan, but it feels like a loan,

642
00:42:38,631 --> 00:42:47,091
where they can post 96.5 Bitcoin collateral, get 96.5 Bitcoin back tax-free. We like it

643
00:42:47,091 --> 00:42:53,531
because we take no credit risk. If they disappear and never close that loop, we just take the 96.5

644
00:42:53,531 --> 00:43:00,012
that we're holding in that segregated vault and we make the same amount of money. So we like it

645
00:43:00,012 --> 00:43:11,851
From a balance sheet perspective, because like I said earlier, every time we put capital at risk, which includes making an investment, we have to hold more of our own regulatory capital to offset that risk.

646
00:43:12,231 --> 00:43:18,931
Well, this is like almost as close to a risk-free investment as possible because it is fully collateralized.

647
00:43:19,931 --> 00:43:29,251
So from our balance sheet perspective, we have to hold a less percent of Bitcoin to offset that risk because it's not very risky.

648
00:43:29,251 --> 00:43:43,811
Whereas if we went out and we lent Bitcoin to miners, we'd have to hold a lot of Bitcoin as regulatory capital because that would be deemed as super high risk, as evidenced by the fact that since 2022, like 70% of all miners have gone out of business.

649
00:43:44,251 --> 00:43:56,631
So that's the primary way we do it is through tax arbitrage through this product that allows people to get stuck to basis on low basis Bitcoin.

650
00:43:59,251 --> 00:44:01,971
Your wealth deserves intention.

651
00:44:02,391 --> 00:44:05,031
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652
00:44:05,031 --> 00:44:07,851
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653
00:44:08,271 --> 00:44:11,591
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654
00:44:12,012 --> 00:44:13,971
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655
00:44:14,351 --> 00:44:17,512
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656
00:44:17,971 --> 00:44:22,031
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657
00:44:22,451 --> 00:44:25,711
Visit our website at basilic.io to schedule a free consultation.

658
00:44:25,711 --> 00:44:33,691
well thank you for that uh detailed explanation and yeah it really is so beautiful like i'm

659
00:44:33,691 --> 00:44:38,351
enamored with this like as you and i've had more conversations as i've you know learned more about

660
00:44:38,351 --> 00:44:44,111
meanwhile there's just like all these things that not only you guys make good business decisions on

661
00:44:44,111 --> 00:44:48,911
but that like overlap with like the bitcoin ethos and like insurance you know oddly enough

662
00:44:48,911 --> 00:44:54,331
since like insurance being a little bit more of a conservative industry but a very solid foundation

663
00:44:54,331 --> 00:44:58,651
to build additional financial products and services on top of.

664
00:44:58,851 --> 00:45:03,971
And then, you know, Bitcoin itself, like, I think folks being a little bit more, you know,

665
00:45:03,992 --> 00:45:08,571
conservative or, you know, libertarian leading at least, which is, I think, kind of counterintuitive

666
00:45:08,571 --> 00:45:10,311
to the person that's not really, you know, in it.

667
00:45:10,351 --> 00:45:12,531
They just think like constantly like risk on.

668
00:45:13,091 --> 00:45:17,512
But a lot of my, you know, Bitcoiners I've interacted with, like, you know, personally

669
00:45:17,512 --> 00:45:21,131
or morally, like have a little bit more of a conservative worldview.

670
00:45:21,131 --> 00:45:26,611
and they're not looking for you a lot and they don't need to because everything's fully denominated

671
00:45:26,611 --> 00:45:33,231
in bitcoin which is kind of like the the magic and you know you guys built a you know separate

672
00:45:33,231 --> 00:45:40,091
business segment that has customers that is fully denominated in bitcoin and so it's so easy to

673
00:45:40,091 --> 00:45:46,671
track it's like there's no staking there's no magic on how you generate bitcoin yield it's like

674
00:45:46,671 --> 00:45:52,391
very black and white like we have bitcoin we service bitcoiners we get paid back in bitcoin

675
00:45:52,391 --> 00:45:59,411
we will then pay you additional bitcoin in your policy it's like yeah wow it's brilliant yeah and

676
00:45:59,411 --> 00:46:07,111
and what i like what i like about that framing is um and maybe maybe this is a way to relate our

677
00:46:07,111 --> 00:46:13,771
product to like the more native trad fi insurance folks that might be listening is i and again i

678
00:46:13,771 --> 00:46:14,512
I was picking Northwestern.

679
00:46:14,651 --> 00:46:17,831
If you bought a 10 pay whole life product,

680
00:46:17,911 --> 00:46:21,431
so like the analogous Fiat product from Northwestern Mutual,

681
00:46:21,971 --> 00:46:25,271
there'd be an illustration where the columns would be like your premium

682
00:46:25,271 --> 00:46:27,771
payments, your guaranteed growth,

683
00:46:28,411 --> 00:46:31,811
your non-guaranteed growth and the death benefit when you die.

684
00:46:33,031 --> 00:46:35,691
Our product looks the exact same.

685
00:46:35,771 --> 00:46:39,091
We have like the exact same illustration where you have your premiums paid,

686
00:46:39,091 --> 00:46:40,571
you have your guaranteed growth.

687
00:46:41,151 --> 00:46:43,411
The last piece is you have your death benefit when you die.

688
00:46:43,771 --> 00:46:48,551
For us, the non-guarantee is the future appreciation of Bitcoin itself.

689
00:46:49,591 --> 00:46:56,511
So, like I said, if you bought a Northwestern policy, they'll probably guarantee you like 5% growth.

690
00:46:57,071 --> 00:46:58,911
We guarantee you 2% growth.

691
00:46:59,411 --> 00:47:05,111
So we're losing on a head-to-head, just like guaranteed growth in nominal terms.

692
00:47:06,551 --> 00:47:08,671
But we're growing in Bitcoin, they're growing in dollars.

693
00:47:09,071 --> 00:47:12,371
So then their non-guarantee is however much it is, a couple percent maybe.

694
00:47:12,371 --> 00:47:27,431
Well, if you assume that the go-forward kegger of Bitcoin is 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, 60%, whatever you assume it is, if you assume it's more than 5%, we have the best performing life insurance product in the world.

695
00:47:29,171 --> 00:47:38,031
And I would venture to argue that a floor at a 5% kegger for Bitcoin over the next 30 years is a pretty good bet to make.

696
00:47:38,831 --> 00:47:39,351
Yeah.

697
00:47:40,111 --> 00:47:40,511
Okay.

698
00:47:40,511 --> 00:47:46,992
um jamie this is this has been fantastic my my last question for you here is just like i think

699
00:47:46,992 --> 00:47:50,951
products like these like i mentioned at the top of the show are so important for you know people

700
00:47:50,951 --> 00:47:55,551
sitting you know in my seat to be able to add additional value to their clients what is your

701
00:47:55,551 --> 00:48:01,071
guys's kind of outreach or reception been from you know advisors that are interested in this product

702
00:48:01,071 --> 00:48:07,611
yeah i frankly i think that um and the reason i appreciate you so much and take the opportunity

703
00:48:07,611 --> 00:48:11,271
anytime somebody asks me onto a show like this is

704
00:48:11,271 --> 00:48:14,051
the biggest hurdle we have is just education.

705
00:48:14,291 --> 00:48:15,791
We're the only people doing it.

706
00:48:16,492 --> 00:48:19,371
It requires like 30 minutes of sit down,

707
00:48:20,151 --> 00:48:22,631
ask questions, wrap your head around it.

708
00:48:22,891 --> 00:48:24,492
At some point, I love doing it

709
00:48:24,492 --> 00:48:26,411
because at some point like the light bulb clicks

710
00:48:26,411 --> 00:48:27,171
and you can see it.

711
00:48:27,211 --> 00:48:29,431
We're like, oh, it's just life insurance,

712
00:48:29,591 --> 00:48:30,571
but the currency is different.

713
00:48:31,871 --> 00:48:33,911
And that's why I typically start with like,

714
00:48:33,911 --> 00:48:37,171
just imagine a life insurance policy in a foreign currency.

715
00:48:37,171 --> 00:48:40,311
Like that's kind of like the starting point for me.

716
00:48:42,111 --> 00:48:46,351
Just the foreign currency has the potential to appreciate 30 or 40% every year.

717
00:48:47,711 --> 00:49:00,611
But that's really for me is the great benefit of being on this show and others like it is the outreach that we've received from advisors is, wow, this sounds really cool.

718
00:49:01,391 --> 00:49:06,492
But I want to make sure I understand it so I can represent it accurately to my clients.

719
00:49:06,492 --> 00:49:15,071
Because I know as well as anyone coming from the world that I came from, that the greatest currency that you have with your clients is their trust.

720
00:49:15,492 --> 00:49:19,111
And as soon as they don't trust you, you're out of business.

721
00:49:19,551 --> 00:49:25,011
And so I don't think anybody wants to bring a product to their client that they themselves don't fully understand.

722
00:49:25,771 --> 00:49:32,492
And so I welcome any opportunity and our team welcomes any opportunity to sit down and do some of that education to get people comfortable.

723
00:49:34,492 --> 00:49:36,471
That's amazing. I can attest to that for a team.

724
00:49:36,492 --> 00:49:43,831
took me about a little slower than the average i wasn't gonna say it i was like dude stop calling

725
00:49:43,831 --> 00:49:49,891
don't get this already uh this is awesome man how can people find you to get a hold of you

726
00:49:49,891 --> 00:49:55,131
yeah our um our website is meanwhile.bm you can type in meanwhile.com and we'll go and see in

727
00:49:55,131 --> 00:50:03,211
place uh i think our x or twitter is at meanwhile um my name is danny bear um you can reach out to

728
00:50:03,211 --> 00:50:09,691
me on LinkedIn. My email is danny at meanwhile.bm. So you can reach out that way too. But like I said,

729
00:50:09,731 --> 00:50:14,911
happy to either myself speak with folks or find the right person on our team to speak with folks

730
00:50:14,911 --> 00:50:18,151
if they're interested in learning more. But really appreciate you having me on.

731
00:50:19,431 --> 00:50:21,011
Pleasure, Zars. Danny, thanks so much.

732
00:50:21,431 --> 00:50:21,791
Thanks, bud.

733
00:50:27,631 --> 00:50:32,351
We appreciate you joining us. If you want to help build a future of Bitcoin and financial services,

734
00:50:32,351 --> 00:50:37,771
hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, and most importantly, share this

735
00:50:37,771 --> 00:50:41,911
with someone in your network who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice. The more professionals

736
00:50:41,911 --> 00:50:47,891
we reach, the better served our clients are. Stay sharp, stay sovereign, keep leading from the front.

737
00:51:02,351 --> 00:51:09,671
connection Righteous Figures