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What Saylor is doing is a very Bitcoin maximalist approach.

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And he is going into every pool of capital he can find.

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And he is creating a product for that pool of capital that fits their investment thesis, that fits their ethos.

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And then he is using that product to gain more exposure to Bitcoin himself.

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every single pool of capital you can find,

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you should be creating the Bitcoin instrument

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that allows that pool of capital to go unlock more demand for Bitcoin.

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And it's something that like,

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right now everyone is enjoying dancing on the graves, right?

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Everyone's like, ha ha ha, look at all these treasury companies,

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look at how they failed.

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I think that's a very myopic and short-term thinking approach.

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I think what you're actually watching

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is the orange pilling of the global capital markets.

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And that is a necessary and important step

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along the path to hyper-Bitcoinization.

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Bitcoin is a currency on the internet.

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If you don't trust any other currency,

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this is where you go.

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It's going to outperform everything.

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Bitcoin could eventually be worthless.

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Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.

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Bitcoin getting a new high.

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It really has reached escape velocity.

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There is no second best.

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Who cares about Bitcoin?

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It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.

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Antisocial.

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Bitcoin is the real deal.

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Stupid.

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Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

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Immoral.

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It's going up forever, Laura.

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Fix the money.

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Fix the world.

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Investments or investment strategies.

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Investments of all risk and almost otherwise stated are not guaranteed.

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Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives is not

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intended as a recommendation appropriate for any individual.

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Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax legal or investment advisor

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to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation.

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Past performance is not indicative of future performance.

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Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.

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Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets

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professional services.

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We explore how to build the financial services industry within the principles,

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values, and ethos of Bitcoin. Today, we're joined by special guest, Brandon Green,

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CEO of Bitcoin Inc., for a great conversation. Let's get started.

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Welcome back to Bitcoin for Financial Services podcast. We're honored to have Brandon Green,

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CEO of Bitcoin Inc. How are you doing, Brandon?

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I'm doing fantastic. It's a beautiful morning. The birds are chirping, the sun is shining,

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and it's a great day for Bitcoin. So we'll jump into it. I'm excited to see you guys.

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How about a great day for Bitcoin? We're gearing up for Vegas here. Jordan and I will both be going or a little less than a month out, almost a month on the nose. How crazy is your life right now?

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I mean, the last 30-day sprint into the conference is always a complete chaos fest.

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I mean, there's just, you know, that's putting it lightly.

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And so, you know, we're in the middle of it, but it's going really well.

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And, you know, there's a couple of announcements that we've just made that are fun.

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And then we have a couple more up our sleeve that we haven't made yet that will hopefully make some headlines.

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So, yeah, I'm ready to put on the show.

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You know, most of the elements of the show are kind of in place.

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And I think it's going to be a good one.

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You know, dude, the thing about the bear market events, right?

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Because, you know, we count this one as a bear market event.

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It's crazy to say that at $65,000 Bitcoin prices, you know, we're in a bear market.

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But we are.

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And so what that means is the conversation is a little more focused.

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Some of the tourists are kind of, you know, staying home this year.

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And it's more about the builders, the executives, like the people who are really impactful to the space coming to kind of, you know, we like to say pick up the pieces.

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There's not many pieces to pick up for this bear market, at least yet.

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And so it's more about really just talking through what went wrong, what went right.

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How do we continue to build this space?

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How do we continue to build Bitcoin into the global financial system?

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Yeah, it's a really, I mean, our audience is, I think, newer to the space. And so I'm just,

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I'm curious for anyone that doesn't know you well, doesn't know probably David Bailey very well,

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maybe give us your background, how you met Dave and like what just, how did you get into

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BTC Inc., Bitcoin Magazine? I think that'd be interesting for our audience to understand.

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Yeah, absolutely. So I've been working in the space now for eight years.

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And I started as an intern at BTC Inc. My first job was organizing the storage closet because we had a whole bunch of old magazines. And so I did that and I did it pretty OK, you know, for an intern. It was an acceptable job.

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My second thing I did as an intern was I wrote for Bitcoin Magazine for Aaron Van Wurdom, who's our technical editor, about how Bitmain was opposing SegWit, which was a protocol upgrade in 2017.

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That was a big fork, you know, massive block size war.

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If you don't know about it, go read about it.

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It's a fascinating time.

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and Bitmain was opposing it

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and no one was really sure why

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except that there was a thought

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that they were using a covert ASIC boost

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at the time to basically get 15% more efficiency

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out of their ant miners

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than you could kind of see in the actual hash rate

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and that a sort of particularity in SegWit

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would kind of remove that ability of their miners.

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And so they were blocking it solely for the allegedly they were blocking it solely for the reason that they didn't want to lose sort of that free 15 percent efficiency gain of all their their miners.

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And and, you know, Aaron needed someone to write that story.

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So that was my second job at Bitcoin was trying to write that story.

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And at the time, I knew nothing about Bitcoin.

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And so you can imagine someone who starts at zero and then has to be able to articulate that level of depth of the entire situation of Bitcoin.

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It was a fast learning on the job, basically.

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And so from there, I dove headfirst.

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I've done everything at BTC Inc.

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literally every job, you know, including like sweeping the floors, taking out the trash to now

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CEO. So and everything in between. So it's been a wild ride. And yeah, I'm really excited about

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kind of the future that we have and the company that we have. I mean, it's a fantastic organization.

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It really is. And you should be very proud, top-notch Borg. And I will stories like that,

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know literally starting from the bottom moving up to the top and then you to your point on bear

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markets too i don't know there's some kind of a little romantic or endearing about bitcoiners and

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in bear markets everybody really kind of like hunkers down gets back to basics what's most

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important so i'm looking forward to vegas i got into bitcoin in a bear market so it's got a little

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soft spot for me if you're a financial professional working with bitcoin you know the pain of messy

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CSVs, broken cost basis, and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. Bitment fixes that.

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and serious Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost basis

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just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth. Create a free account or book a demo

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at bitment.co today.

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Best time to get in.

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Getting in the bull market sucks.

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You get in the bull market

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and then the bottom falls out

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and then you're like, why am I here?

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It's way better to get in the bear market.

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I'll also say, you know,

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in the bull market,

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there's so much stuff going on.

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I mean, everyone is sort of

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sprinting on whatever it is

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they think they're going to accomplish this cycle.

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And it's real, like,

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there's kind of just this

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veil or kind of, I don't know, curtain that people put up in front of them. You can't really

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just relax and have a conversation. Everyone's trying to get something done. And in the bear

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market, everyone's more focused on building. They're less focused on some external thing,

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right? You know, this appearance of, oh, we're growing and everything's crazy and all this kind

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of stuff. And you get to just have authentic conversations. You know, this is where you get to

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really make the friends, make the relationships, understand what's going on, understand the pain

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points, the opportunities. You know, this is like true signal. So I am super excited about it.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a very good American story right there, right? And I feel like those stories

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don't just don't pop up near as much where someone is able to rise to the top level of an

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organization and uh starting from sweeping floors writing articles uh and one other thing i want to

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mention is just at least the bitcoin community is very forgiving so when you wrote that article i'm

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sure it didn't get any blowback or any criticism uh so that's that's good too so all of the bitcoiners

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loved that article uh and it was the bitcoin cash people that that you know hated it and uh

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And they all forked off.

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So it worked out.

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Okay.

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Well, Wyatt and I did our first, you know, we did our first event, very small scale.

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There's 150 advisors in Denver last October.

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And man, I think Wyatt and I just, we have to tip our hats to you all just because putting

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on events, even small scale, I can't even really imagine at a large scale is just, it's

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a difficult thing.

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There's so many moving pieces.

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the parties that you're trying to keep everyone happy, whether it's the sponsors, the attendees,

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coordinating with the speakers who, you know, some are more responsive and, you know, stick to

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deadlines that you set and all those things than others. So hats off to you for that. How are you

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feeling just about Vegas? Are you all, I know obviously you're doing the second year in a row

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there. Is that you still feel like that is the spot for, you know, for having this conference?

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I know it's hard to pick a venue and a city, but just curious on your thoughts on Vegas in general, since this is the second year going into it.

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Great question. So and so to back up to right. Throwing events is really hard.

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It's there's like almost no barrier to entry. But then to do it well is like the most I mean, it's just a massive headache.

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the good news on it is that if you screw up which every year we find new ways to screw up

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we learn from that we never we never make the same mistake twice but we always make mistakes along the

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way the good news about it is that like the worst outcome is oh you know like the event had a problem

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you know it's not like you know no there's no fire you didn't burn the building down you know

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it's like, oh, this booth didn't come out right. Or that person's stage time had a conflict. You

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know, it's like the, it's trivial in terms of sort of the magnitude of the mistakes you can make.

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But the number of mistakes you can make is like exponential to the number of parties involved and

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the number of moving pieces you have and how they all have to come together. So it is a, it is a

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massive puzzle. And then, you know, you also have to, I tell the team all the time,

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throwing an event is like throwing a party. You know, the way that you throw a successful party

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is you have to get the right people there. And then you have to let the other people know,

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hey, so and so is going to be there, you better come. And it's like, it's this snowball effect

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of trying to really spread the word. You can market the heck out of it as much as you want

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on socials on you know paid ads all this kind of stuff but it really grows word of mouth

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uh and so it's really all about getting the right people excited the right people involved uh and

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and kind of checking the the proverbial box that this is going to be a good event and it's worth

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your time to show up so uh it's that is a impossible nut to crack every year you never

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know exactly what the thing is going to be that convinces people to come um and yeah and then

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you're always kind of like sitting waiting to see who's actually going to show up when you open the

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doors so it's it's a it's like a massive roller coaster you end up going on but uh you know

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alongside that is just the unbelievable payoff you get uh when you kind of feel it all come together

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and and it's a good event and people will give you the positive feedback and uh and all of that so

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it's it's uh you know it's like a drip you hook yourself up to and you can't get off of it once

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you once you you know get ahead of it so uh but but to your question of uh you know what are we

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what was the question exactly like what are we looking forward to just like Vegas because you

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I mean maybe give everyone the background it was like California then it was Miami there's a

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Nashville year and then two Vegas years I was just curious overall how how all of those stack

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up against each other and and Vegas I guess yeah yeah so settled on it's it's a really good question

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You know, we moved it around quite a bit for various reasons.

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We started in California.

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We left California because of COVID.

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In 2021, we weren't allowed to – it was 2020 first.

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You know, we weren't allowed to throw the event there.

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It was our second event ever, right, was 2020, March of 2020.

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So we had to cancel it.

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I mean, there's crazy stories about that.

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We could talk hours about it, but I'll give you the cliff notes,

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which is we had to cancel it.

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We moved into L.A. for like the back half of the year expecting, oh, this pandemic thing is going to like blow over pretty quickly.

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Obviously, it didn't.

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L.A. refused to even talk to us about when we could potentially throw the conference.

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And so then we were like, we got to we got to host this thing.

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You know, at that point, it was kind of clear that the risk profile of covid was very uneven.

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You know, some people had high risk.

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A lot of people had low risk.

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People had been locked up for a year like they were just.

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fiending to be able to go be together in person again so uh at the same time mayor suarez of miami

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had like been going viral for this whole like how can i help you know uh kind of thing on twitter

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and so i dm'd him from the uh the conference twitter and i was just like hey we're trying

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to throw this conference like can you can you help us do it in miami and he was like absolutely

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like let's do it we were like can we do it in June and he was like yeah yeah we can do it in June and

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we were like can you promise us we can do it in June he was like of course you're like okay we're

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moving to Miami and that was that you know and like that that opened this chapter where Bitcoin

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21 was the first event in the world after COVID and the reason was it was because Bitcoiners first

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of all are just a little bit crazier than everyone else and and love Bitcoin and are just willing to

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you know risk it to go you know learn about bitcoin and celebrate bitcoin um but two like

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because we were the first event in the world it became an absolute mania like media fest uh we had

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00:16:04,140 --> 00:16:08,800
every hit piece written about us you know the super spreader event all this kind of stuff like

218
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:17,200
it was crazy uh and you know that event we had uh bukele announced legal tender it was michael

219
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:24,380
sailors first public appearance um you know we called into ross from jail yeah uh i mean it was

220
00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:30,180
just nuts floyd mayweather showed up tim dylan you know it was just it was this crazy moment in time

221
00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:37,340
um and and so then we parlayed that to miami in 2022 and i'm going somewhere with all this so uh

222
00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:45,340
like our thought in 2022 was like okay we're the bitcoin conference uh we are like we need to

223
00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:53,880
leverage Bitcoin in order to make the city that we go to as pro-Bitcoin as possible. Because this

224
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,500
worked in Miami. As we were in Miami, as we were creating this shelling point around Bitcoin in

225
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:04,700
Miami, the city of Miami started to do things for Bitcoin. And the mayor was doing things for

226
00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:10,580
Bitcoin in order to signal along with the whole thing. And we were like, okay, that's a power that

227
00:17:10,580 --> 00:17:16,220
we have. Let's try and wield that. So then we start planning to move the conference to Nashville.

228
00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:23,980
And and so we go to Nashville in 2024. 2023 was a bear market conference. 2024 moved to Nashville.

229
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:31,080
Massive event. A huge buy in from, you know, the state from Nashville itself. Obviously,

230
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,460
you know, Trump was there and did his famous speech. And we were like, all right, let's keep

231
00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:43,160
is going and 2025 is going to be massive and just in terms of size and scale and scope there's only

232
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,940
one place in the world you can go to throw just a huge event like that and it's Vegas you know

233
00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:53,300
like if we wanted this to be a hundred thousand person event you can only do that in Vegas right

234
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:59,280
so we moved to Vegas in 25 it's a massive event I think you know like 35,000 people

235
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,940
and

236
00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:04,240
but the costs are like extreme.

237
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,440
You have to sign up for all sorts of,

238
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:06,820
you know,

239
00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:10,040
things around it where it's like

240
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,640
your margins just get eaten into

241
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:13,880
over and over and over again.

242
00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:28,384
And so it a very expensive place to throw a conference And we were like okay we do it for 25 We do it for 26 And then afterwards it going to be a bear market So let go to a different city

243
00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:31,344
where the costs are lower up front

244
00:18:31,344 --> 00:18:34,784
so that we can kind of toggle the costs on our end

245
00:18:34,784 --> 00:18:37,364
and make sure we can pay everyone's salaries

246
00:18:37,364 --> 00:18:39,145
at the end of the day after the conference, right?

247
00:18:40,245 --> 00:18:42,245
Expecting there to be just a drawdown in size,

248
00:18:42,405 --> 00:18:43,864
a drawdown in sponsorship.

249
00:18:43,864 --> 00:19:02,945
And so we haven't announced where we're going yet. We'll be announcing that, I think, at the conference, of course. And then, you know, I will say that in the broad scheme of things, I miss Miami. So, you know, it's just fun there. People have a great time.

250
00:19:02,945 --> 00:19:06,505
and I think we just have an opportunity

251
00:19:06,505 --> 00:19:10,145
to maybe in the future make a home there.

252
00:19:10,584 --> 00:19:11,764
I'm not saying that we will,

253
00:19:12,284 --> 00:19:13,804
but I'm saying that that is kind of

254
00:19:13,804 --> 00:19:15,284
where our heads are at is like,

255
00:19:15,344 --> 00:19:16,684
okay, we've done this roadshow.

256
00:19:17,005 --> 00:19:17,824
It's tough.

257
00:19:17,985 --> 00:19:18,884
It's tough, man.

258
00:19:19,024 --> 00:19:21,604
You have to like reinvent so many wheels

259
00:19:21,604 --> 00:19:23,344
every time you move venues

260
00:19:23,344 --> 00:19:26,145
and then it takes away from your ability

261
00:19:26,145 --> 00:19:27,064
to like level up.

262
00:19:27,225 --> 00:19:28,465
You know, it's because you got to figure out

263
00:19:28,465 --> 00:19:29,084
the floor plan.

264
00:19:29,165 --> 00:19:30,465
You got to figure out where the stages are.

265
00:19:30,524 --> 00:19:31,745
You got to figure out registration,

266
00:19:31,905 --> 00:19:32,844
like all of these things.

267
00:19:32,945 --> 00:19:36,184
You can't then spend your time doing like the extra.

268
00:19:36,624 --> 00:19:45,284
And here's how we're going to implement Bitcoin in some fun new way or build some, you know, bespoke new activation.

269
00:19:45,844 --> 00:19:51,884
Like all of those things that we want to be doing because we're so focused on just like making the event work for the new space that we're in.

270
00:19:52,084 --> 00:19:59,745
So that being said, like, I think we will settle down in terms of our moving the conference everywhere all the time.

271
00:20:00,264 --> 00:20:02,684
We're not there yet, but it's coming.

272
00:20:02,945 --> 00:20:03,445
it's coming.

273
00:20:04,804 --> 00:20:05,245
No,

274
00:20:05,304 --> 00:20:06,024
that's awesome,

275
00:20:06,124 --> 00:20:06,225
man.

276
00:20:06,445 --> 00:20:07,745
And you're a couple of things on that.

277
00:20:07,864 --> 00:20:12,304
So when you're talking about like curating the right folks and getting,

278
00:20:12,584 --> 00:20:13,024
you know,

279
00:20:13,645 --> 00:20:14,005
uh,

280
00:20:14,124 --> 00:20:15,104
good people together,

281
00:20:15,104 --> 00:20:16,804
is that a little teaser that,

282
00:20:16,804 --> 00:20:17,145
you know,

283
00:20:17,165 --> 00:20:19,245
Elon's actually going to show up here in 2026?

284
00:20:20,905 --> 00:20:21,304
Uh,

285
00:20:21,405 --> 00:20:22,264
we'll see about that,

286
00:20:22,364 --> 00:20:22,965
but you know what?

287
00:20:23,725 --> 00:20:25,084
He's posting his memes again,

288
00:20:25,084 --> 00:20:25,465
isn't he?

289
00:20:25,564 --> 00:20:25,924
Uh,

290
00:20:25,924 --> 00:20:27,124
he's posting his Bitcoin memes.

291
00:20:27,584 --> 00:20:27,985
He,

292
00:20:28,225 --> 00:20:28,564
uh,

293
00:20:28,564 --> 00:20:29,005
you know,

294
00:20:29,044 --> 00:20:30,124
there's a funny story about,

295
00:20:30,124 --> 00:20:30,764
uh,

296
00:20:30,764 --> 00:20:31,225
2024.

297
00:20:32,324 --> 00:20:32,684
Uh,

298
00:20:32,945 --> 00:20:35,465
So like Elon, Elon was supposed to speak at 2024.

299
00:20:35,784 --> 00:20:36,064
Right.

300
00:20:36,844 --> 00:20:40,705
And, uh, and like the, the whole kind of deal was like, we weren't going to announce and

301
00:20:40,705 --> 00:20:41,844
we were going to let him announce it.

302
00:20:42,725 --> 00:20:47,124
And so, you know, we were just kind of like waiting for Elon to announce this thing.

303
00:20:47,824 --> 00:20:53,745
And, uh, and then he tweets laser eyes and we're like, okay, this is like, I guess this

304
00:20:53,745 --> 00:20:54,445
is it, you know?

305
00:20:54,445 --> 00:21:01,604
And so then David posts underneath that laser eyes tweet, like, are you ready in all caps?

306
00:21:01,604 --> 00:21:11,205
um and then elon uh uh not blocks david elon suspends david's twitter account uh and this is

307
00:21:11,205 --> 00:21:17,424
like the the week of our conference suspends his twitter account and um and then like you know we

308
00:21:17,424 --> 00:21:23,764
don't hear from him again uh at all and then like we have no clue whether he's still coming like he

309
00:21:23,764 --> 00:21:28,384
hasn't he won't you know is elon right he's off doing his own thing he's he's flying around i

310
00:21:28,384 --> 00:21:32,924
think he went to like paris for the olympics and but we're tracking him like we're tracking his

311
00:21:32,924 --> 00:21:40,485
private plane uh as he's like moving around and he leaves the paris olympics like with enough time

312
00:21:40,485 --> 00:21:49,205
to just be in nashville for his session right and uh and we're like is this still happening you know

313
00:21:49,205 --> 00:21:54,905
like we we don't know he he lands in new jersey and he's like kind of i'm guessing refueling the

314
00:21:54,905 --> 00:22:01,665
plane and he's there for a second. And we're like, okay, maybe, maybe he's, you know, maybe he's just

315
00:22:01,665 --> 00:22:06,824
not coming. Right. And then he takes off headed directly for Nashville. And we're like, oh my

316
00:22:06,824 --> 00:22:10,764
God, he's coming, you know? And like, meanwhile, the secret service, like we're dealing with them,

317
00:22:11,145 --> 00:22:16,725
like Trump's in the building, he's, you know, doing round tables and taking pictures and,

318
00:22:16,864 --> 00:22:19,985
you know, meeting donors and all this kind of stuff. And we're like, oh my God, Elon's coming,

319
00:22:19,985 --> 00:22:21,945
He's going to land in like two hours.

320
00:22:23,165 --> 00:22:25,084
And so we're losing our minds backstage.

321
00:22:26,304 --> 00:22:27,884
Trump goes up on stage.

322
00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:37,465
As Trump is giving his speech, we watch Elon's plane fly directly over Nashville, turn, and then go straight to Memphis.

323
00:22:38,225 --> 00:22:44,384
And he landed in Memphis for his super AI kind of cluster out there.

324
00:22:45,284 --> 00:22:48,564
And I think he flew over the event just to troll us.

325
00:22:48,564 --> 00:22:54,344
like no joke i actually think that that's what he did uh to this day i think that's what he did

326
00:22:54,344 --> 00:23:02,725
so um you know fair play elon uh well done we'd love to to see you again um and you know whether

327
00:23:02,725 --> 00:23:08,405
whether we'll see him in b26 we'll find out that's awesome he definitely listens to the pot

328
00:23:08,405 --> 00:23:15,364
so hopefully he'll take the message personally you know and uh on the locations here so this is

329
00:23:15,364 --> 00:23:17,485
comment than a question, but

330
00:23:17,485 --> 00:23:19,624
you guys probably already have

331
00:23:19,624 --> 00:23:21,624
27 locked down. I'm assuming those

332
00:23:21,624 --> 00:23:23,624
are things you've got to be working

333
00:23:23,624 --> 00:23:25,665
on well in advance. I still think

334
00:23:25,665 --> 00:23:27,485
you guys need to come to Denver

335
00:23:27,485 --> 00:23:29,665
and just crush East, take their

336
00:23:29,665 --> 00:23:31,985
capital, plant the flag, demoralize

337
00:23:31,985 --> 00:23:33,925
them. Just keep that in the back of your mind.

338
00:23:34,764 --> 00:23:35,764
Little PR play

339
00:23:35,764 --> 00:23:37,844
there. But you guys have also

340
00:23:37,844 --> 00:23:39,884
moved internationally. Is it four

341
00:23:39,884 --> 00:23:40,884
total conferences?

342
00:23:41,824 --> 00:23:42,804
Yeah, four or five.

343
00:23:43,324 --> 00:23:45,124
Four events on four continents

344
00:23:45,124 --> 00:23:51,985
and four quarters uh so we have wild yeah so how have you thought about expanding to those

345
00:23:51,985 --> 00:23:57,465
international markets are those like are you going through like the same you know horse and pony show

346
00:23:57,465 --> 00:24:02,384
it's like are we going to this city or that city are you kind of just like all the extra logistics

347
00:24:02,384 --> 00:24:06,564
that come with an international show or you just kind of settled where you're at we're definitely

348
00:24:06,564 --> 00:24:12,624
settled where we're at um for for those for a lot of reasons i mean first of all it's because like

349
00:24:12,624 --> 00:24:14,505
if you're going to move to a different place,

350
00:24:14,505 --> 00:24:16,124
you're probably moving to a different country.

351
00:24:17,064 --> 00:24:20,425
And that also comes with a lot of challenges.

352
00:24:21,524 --> 00:24:25,524
I mean, it's so hard doing these international events.

353
00:24:26,584 --> 00:24:28,084
So the first one we did was in Amsterdam.

354
00:24:28,445 --> 00:24:30,804
We did it in Amsterdam for a lot of reasons.

355
00:24:30,925 --> 00:24:31,945
We had a good partner there.

356
00:24:32,485 --> 00:24:33,884
It's also where the first,

357
00:24:34,524 --> 00:24:36,645
I think it was the second ever Bitcoin conference

358
00:24:36,645 --> 00:24:39,384
in like 2014 was in Amsterdam.

359
00:24:39,705 --> 00:24:41,445
And so it was kind of like a, you know,

360
00:24:41,445 --> 00:24:49,665
love note back to the the og days of you know 100 person bitcoin conferences and um and so that

361
00:24:49,665 --> 00:24:55,364
event was uh went really well and and then we were like okay the bull market's coming this was like

362
00:24:55,364 --> 00:25:02,784
2023 uh let's go ahead and place some bets of where else we think we could do like a massive

363
00:25:02,784 --> 00:25:09,284
conference when the bull market hits and so obviously like asia was a big market and we were

364
00:25:09,284 --> 00:25:15,304
like, how do we kind of hit that? Well, we wanted to be as close to China as possible, because that's

365
00:25:15,304 --> 00:25:22,584
where all the Bitcoin miners are. And so Hong Kong was a natural fit. We kind of, you know, lure them

366
00:25:22,584 --> 00:25:29,284
through, you know, through the trains and the light rail and stuff like they would come.

367
00:25:29,965 --> 00:25:34,485
And that was actually really cool. I mean, there was a ton of just OG Chinese Bitcoiners that

368
00:25:34,485 --> 00:25:38,784
that showed up to that event that people hadn't heard from or talked to in a decade.

369
00:25:39,425 --> 00:25:43,925
Right. And then the other market that we took a bet on was just the Middle East.

370
00:25:45,604 --> 00:25:51,145
Because, you know, there's a there's a whole narrative and a story of not only just gold there,

371
00:25:51,145 --> 00:25:58,584
but of also just a, you know, open and free, highly capitalistic financial system.

372
00:25:58,884 --> 00:26:02,624
And so, you know, like Bitcoin is sort of a natural fit for that market as well.

373
00:26:02,624 --> 00:26:05,284
and we threw our event in Abu Dhabi

374
00:26:05,284 --> 00:26:06,084
because that's where,

375
00:26:06,425 --> 00:26:08,304
that's like the seat of power of the UAE.

376
00:26:08,584 --> 00:26:09,844
It's very open for business.

377
00:26:10,584 --> 00:26:11,725
It's not Dubai.

378
00:26:12,044 --> 00:26:13,344
It's a little less crypto-y.

379
00:26:13,544 --> 00:26:16,465
It's much more kind of sound money,

380
00:26:16,624 --> 00:26:17,225
sound economics.

381
00:26:17,505 --> 00:26:19,084
So those are where our events are today.

382
00:26:20,425 --> 00:26:22,165
And yeah, I mean, they've all grown

383
00:26:22,165 --> 00:26:24,024
pretty well over the past couple of years.

384
00:26:25,084 --> 00:26:26,225
Yeah, I was still,

385
00:26:26,225 --> 00:26:28,604
I was jealous of why it last year

386
00:26:28,604 --> 00:26:31,024
got to go to Amsterdam and MENA.

387
00:26:31,024 --> 00:26:34,064
So, yeah.

388
00:26:34,184 --> 00:26:34,485
Great events.

389
00:26:34,945 --> 00:26:38,564
It's on my list definitely to get out to Amsterdam.

390
00:26:39,184 --> 00:26:43,005
And, I mean, I would love to go to Abu Dhabi as well at some point.

391
00:26:45,925 --> 00:26:47,985
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392
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393
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394
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395
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396
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397
00:27:13,304 --> 00:27:22,864
So, and when we were talking right before we went on, you know, you guys kind of control a lot of narratives, right?

398
00:27:22,864 --> 00:27:26,165
I mean, you're a media company, you throw these in real life events.

399
00:27:26,165 --> 00:27:32,544
and I'm just curious you know for our audience obviously in 20 what was it January 24 I guess

400
00:27:32,544 --> 00:27:39,685
was when the ETS launched and now there's just there's a lot of institutional you know players

401
00:27:39,685 --> 00:27:46,044
getting into the game just curious to hear your thoughts there's just been a huge shift I feel

402
00:27:46,044 --> 00:27:53,884
like in the space between kind of OG folks who are individuals built businesses but now we're

403
00:27:53,884 --> 00:28:00,784
you're having to also contend with the sailors, the Bitcoin treasury companies, the ETF companies.

404
00:28:01,445 --> 00:28:07,024
How are you all trying to balance all of those different, I don't know if you call them competing

405
00:28:07,024 --> 00:28:12,965
interests, but they're definitely different. They all have different incentives, I guess.

406
00:28:13,965 --> 00:28:19,584
Yeah. So great question. And man, there's like a couple of pieces I would want to pick apart on

407
00:28:19,584 --> 00:28:25,645
this. So first of all, we don't control the narratives. You know, we really try and lean

408
00:28:25,645 --> 00:28:31,764
in and understand the narratives. And then we try to kind of put a megaphone on them. But

409
00:28:31,764 --> 00:28:35,864
understanding the narratives is the hardest part, because what you're really trying to do is you're

410
00:28:35,864 --> 00:28:43,844
trying to put words to just like phenomena and like put reasons behind them and kind of create

411
00:28:43,844 --> 00:28:48,044
the understanding that people can be like, OK, I get what's going on. Right. And that's really hard

412
00:28:48,044 --> 00:28:49,725
Because sometimes it's just like chaos.

413
00:28:49,884 --> 00:28:55,725
You know, it's trying to figure out the narrative through just a bunch of data points that don't seem to connect.

414
00:28:57,044 --> 00:29:02,205
Here's what I would say on like, let's say since 2024, since the ETFs.

415
00:29:03,205 --> 00:29:08,405
There's been, I think, a confluence of new users in Bitcoin.

416
00:29:09,145 --> 00:29:10,764
And what does that mean?

417
00:29:10,764 --> 00:29:17,465
So, gosh, there's, let's take the institutions for a start, right?

418
00:29:17,465 --> 00:29:19,705
Everyone was saying for years institutions were coming.

419
00:29:20,124 --> 00:29:22,084
They were just waiting on that product they could use.

420
00:29:23,024 --> 00:29:26,104
I actually don't think the institutions are here yet.

421
00:29:26,645 --> 00:29:27,745
And here's why.

422
00:29:28,645 --> 00:29:43,264
What happened with the ETFs is that the institutions now had the ability to sort of interact with Bitcoin within their brokerage accounts without ever touching main chain, without having to worry about custody, all this kind of stuff.

423
00:29:43,425 --> 00:29:46,005
But they weren't, quote unquote, orange pilled.

424
00:29:46,005 --> 00:30:08,824
You know, they didn't start to fundamentally understand, like, why is Bitcoin amazing? Why is it superior money? Why should I be holding on to this? They weren't net long Bitcoin. What they did is the carry trade. They basically said, look at all this futures market. You know, the miners need the futures market in order to stabilize kind of their coins that they're mining and, you know, stabilize their revenues.

425
00:30:09,405 --> 00:30:17,225
Other people are playing the futures market to just speculate without having to, you know, settle into Bitcoin and get massive leverage, all this kind of stuff.

426
00:30:17,544 --> 00:30:31,584
There was like a 3% premium they could capture in the carry trade, hold ETF and then short the equivalent in the futures market, collect the premium when it expires, rinse and repeat over and over again.

427
00:30:32,024 --> 00:30:35,225
And so the ETFs grew a bunch because of that trade.

428
00:30:35,225 --> 00:30:41,324
the futures markets volume grew a bunch because of that trade.

429
00:30:42,425 --> 00:30:47,544
And then outside of that, there was a little bit of retail buying in the ETFs for sure.

430
00:30:48,284 --> 00:30:53,884
But there was also a lot of people who had held on to their keys for so long,

431
00:30:53,884 --> 00:30:56,225
were terrified of $5 wrench attacks,

432
00:30:56,764 --> 00:30:59,745
and either just wrapped their Bitcoin into the ETF directly,

433
00:30:59,985 --> 00:31:03,124
you know, once the like-kind exchange kind of came out,

434
00:31:03,124 --> 00:31:06,024
or they just sold their Bitcoin and rebought ETF.

435
00:31:07,324 --> 00:31:12,044
And so there wasn't a ton, in my opinion, of net new buying.

436
00:31:12,145 --> 00:31:12,905
Of course, there was some.

437
00:31:13,624 --> 00:31:16,864
Of course, it allowed like advisors to sort of tell people,

438
00:31:16,985 --> 00:31:18,884
oh, get your 1%, 2% allocation.

439
00:31:19,084 --> 00:31:21,044
Like all of that happened a little bit.

440
00:31:21,304 --> 00:31:23,945
But in terms of true institutional adoption,

441
00:31:23,945 --> 00:31:27,245
all they really found was a spread trade that opened up.

442
00:31:27,485 --> 00:31:28,304
It's hedge funds.

443
00:31:28,445 --> 00:31:29,165
You know, they hedge.

444
00:31:29,364 --> 00:31:31,005
They don't believe in things.

445
00:31:31,104 --> 00:31:32,965
They just find scalp trades.

446
00:31:33,124 --> 00:31:39,864
or low risk. And so throughout this whole process, like, I don't think we've actually seen authentic

447
00:31:39,864 --> 00:31:45,945
institutional adoption. I don't see Morgan Stanley coming out with their like Bitcoin is the future,

448
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:51,884
you know, kind of mentality. You've seen Larry Fink do that, but probably mostly in service to

449
00:31:51,884 --> 00:31:59,245
his ETF and just growing demand for that. And so I just don't see it yet. Now, we could kind of

450
00:31:59,245 --> 00:32:03,465
speculate on what it will take to see that. And, you know, there's a million different answers to

451
00:32:03,465 --> 00:32:09,425
that question. But that's sort of my diagnosis there. At the same time, then, we saw MicroStrategy

452
00:32:09,425 --> 00:32:15,665
and everyone was like, oh, shoot, the ETFs are out. Like MicroStrategy is dead, right? MicroStrategy

453
00:32:15,665 --> 00:32:23,005
was sort of the ETF, the pseudo ETF. And so everyone was waiting for MicroStrategy to just

454
00:32:23,005 --> 00:32:27,905
collapse as soon as all the ETFs launched. And instead, the opposite happened. And everyone was

455
00:32:27,905 --> 00:32:34,165
like, whoa, what's going on? And Sailor had been coming out basically making this compelling case

456
00:32:34,165 --> 00:32:41,165
of, well, ETFs take a fee. Every year, every quarter, you have a little bit less Bitcoin

457
00:32:41,165 --> 00:32:50,304
than you had before if you just hold your Bitcoin in an ETF. MicroStrategy will actually increase

458
00:32:50,304 --> 00:32:55,145
the number of Bitcoin you have per share of MicroStrategy you own. And we do it through

459
00:32:55,145 --> 00:33:01,905
this accretive dilution process. And so then there became this, I think, retail rush to

460
00:33:01,905 --> 00:33:07,784
MicroStrategy, because all of a sudden, you know, everyone knew Saylor, he was already kind of a

461
00:33:07,784 --> 00:33:15,145
massive figure in the space. Now he has a compelling reason to not buy an ETF and instead buy his stock.

462
00:33:15,584 --> 00:33:21,165
And it happened, you know, in the run up, his stock started exploding that, you know, created

463
00:33:21,165 --> 00:33:23,564
like a flywheel of more people buying stock.

464
00:33:23,884 --> 00:33:26,945
And then that unlocked this narrative of like,

465
00:33:27,405 --> 00:33:29,465
oh, there should actually be a micro strategy

466
00:33:29,465 --> 00:33:30,284
in every market.

467
00:33:30,804 --> 00:33:33,264
And, you know, there's kind of unlimited demand

468
00:33:33,264 --> 00:33:33,925
for this right now.

469
00:33:33,965 --> 00:33:34,505
And there was.

470
00:33:35,145 --> 00:33:36,344
And so, and I don't think that

471
00:33:36,344 --> 00:33:39,124
that's necessarily wrong today, right?

472
00:33:39,165 --> 00:33:41,705
Like, I still think that there is a use case

473
00:33:41,705 --> 00:33:43,604
and a reason for there to be micro strategies

474
00:33:43,604 --> 00:33:44,425
in these different markets

475
00:33:44,425 --> 00:33:46,024
because what is ultimately happening,

476
00:33:46,584 --> 00:33:48,725
and this picks to like kind of the third piece

477
00:33:48,725 --> 00:33:49,705
of picking apart the narrative,

478
00:33:49,705 --> 00:33:53,304
is that what Saylor is doing

479
00:33:53,304 --> 00:33:57,745
is a very Bitcoin maximalist approach.

480
00:33:58,304 --> 00:34:02,524
And he is going into every pool of capital he can find

481
00:34:02,524 --> 00:34:07,185
and he is creating a product for that pool of capital

482
00:34:07,185 --> 00:34:09,064
that fits their investment thesis,

483
00:34:09,325 --> 00:34:10,665
that fits their ethos.

484
00:34:10,905 --> 00:34:13,004
And then he is using that product

485
00:34:13,004 --> 00:34:16,144
to gain more exposure to Bitcoin himself, right?

486
00:34:16,944 --> 00:34:18,504
Stretch is an easy example, obviously,

487
00:34:18,504 --> 00:34:19,865
because it's the main thing he's talking about.

488
00:34:20,124 --> 00:34:21,544
All he's going into there

489
00:34:21,544 --> 00:34:24,165
is he's disrupting the private credit markets.

490
00:34:24,504 --> 00:34:26,964
He's disrupting, you know, the fixed income investors.

491
00:34:27,524 --> 00:34:30,784
He's basically saying, look, you buy this fixed income,

492
00:34:30,944 --> 00:34:33,725
you know, 11%, whatever it is, instrument.

493
00:34:34,764 --> 00:34:36,425
You know, there's very little downside.

494
00:34:36,845 --> 00:34:38,905
It's capped on the upside, but you get this dividend

495
00:34:38,905 --> 00:34:41,185
and I'm just going to go buy Bitcoin with it.

496
00:34:41,665 --> 00:34:44,944
And the reality is, is like that should be happening.

497
00:34:45,104 --> 00:34:46,644
If you're a Bitcoin maximalist,

498
00:34:46,644 --> 00:34:48,644
that should be happening everywhere.

499
00:34:49,205 --> 00:34:51,784
Every single pool of capital you can find,

500
00:34:52,044 --> 00:34:53,905
you should be creating the Bitcoin instrument

501
00:34:53,905 --> 00:34:55,665
that allows that pool of capital

502
00:34:55,665 --> 00:34:58,425
to go unlock more demand for Bitcoin.

503
00:34:59,504 --> 00:35:00,845
And so I think that that's going to,

504
00:35:01,165 --> 00:35:01,804
you know, obviously that's

505
00:35:03,425 --> 00:35:05,225
gone through a hype and bust cycle

506
00:35:05,225 --> 00:35:06,425
over the past year.

507
00:35:06,905 --> 00:35:07,944
But I don't think that

508
00:35:07,944 --> 00:35:09,705
that is a fundamentally wrong thesis.

509
00:35:10,225 --> 00:35:11,165
I think that will come back

510
00:35:11,165 --> 00:35:13,365
in a really big way in the next bull run.

511
00:35:13,905 --> 00:35:15,705
It will probably be, you know,

512
00:35:15,705 --> 00:35:22,765
orders of magnitude larger than it was this past bull run. And it's something that like,

513
00:35:23,205 --> 00:35:27,745
right now everyone is enjoying dancing on the graves, right? Everyone's like, ha ha ha,

514
00:35:27,865 --> 00:35:33,165
look at all these treasury companies, look at how they failed. I think that's a very myopic and

515
00:35:33,165 --> 00:35:40,304
short term thinking approach. I think what you're actually watching is the orange pilling of the

516
00:35:40,304 --> 00:35:41,745
global capital markets.

517
00:35:42,685 --> 00:35:44,825
And that is a necessary

518
00:35:44,825 --> 00:35:47,084
and important step

519
00:35:47,084 --> 00:35:47,825
along the path

520
00:35:47,825 --> 00:35:48,725
to hyper Bitcoinization.

521
00:35:49,084 --> 00:35:50,604
So that would be my like

522
00:35:50,604 --> 00:35:53,004
picked apart thesis so far.

523
00:35:54,185 --> 00:35:55,004
Anything I miss?

524
00:35:56,144 --> 00:35:57,424
No, I think that's good.

525
00:35:57,584 --> 00:35:58,124
And this insight

526
00:35:58,124 --> 00:35:59,604
and yeah, really beautifully said.

527
00:35:59,665 --> 00:36:00,205
And this is something,

528
00:36:00,524 --> 00:36:01,745
you know, I talk about all the time.

529
00:36:01,804 --> 00:36:02,845
It's like, I don't really understand

530
00:36:02,845 --> 00:36:04,484
why Bitcoiners have such a gripe

531
00:36:04,484 --> 00:36:05,504
with finance.

532
00:36:05,665 --> 00:36:06,444
And it's like, yes,

533
00:36:06,444 --> 00:36:07,984
it's, you know, infallible industry

534
00:36:07,984 --> 00:36:09,124
that done a lot of dirty things.

535
00:36:09,124 --> 00:36:16,144
But if we want to achieve hyper-Bitconization, like we need to build the tools, products, and strategies to get dollars into Bitcoin.

536
00:36:16,444 --> 00:36:19,504
Like Saylor, obviously, I think is really, you know, leading that charge.

537
00:36:19,685 --> 00:36:24,944
And you guys now part of Nakamoto deploying that, you know, similar strategy.

538
00:36:25,325 --> 00:36:28,825
I would like to hear, you know, how you're thinking about it on the Nakamoto side.

539
00:36:28,964 --> 00:36:31,165
So, yeah, just two questions here.

540
00:36:31,165 --> 00:36:35,544
one, if you could just kind of take us like maybe behind the scenes some what that acquisition

541
00:36:35,544 --> 00:36:51,129
was like just as a professional you know getting bought and acquired by you know public company You guys obviously have a lot of different business segments just like what that experience was like And then two uniquely you know I think like and correct me if I wrong here Fold is

542
00:36:51,129 --> 00:36:56,789
the only other like public Bitcoin operating company that kind of comes to mind.

543
00:36:56,849 --> 00:37:01,749
So I think you guys are actually playing in a unique spot within like the subsect of the

544
00:37:01,749 --> 00:37:05,109
industry where you have a Bitcoin focus operating business.

545
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:14,629
And, you know, when I'm talking to folks, that's always been a lot of the skepticism where it's like, OK, yeah, I conceptually get like this high level finance strategy, but it's like purely a financial play.

546
00:37:14,829 --> 00:37:22,769
You guys are bringing kind of more of a classical, we operate a business to generate cash flow, like buy some Bitcoin with it, you know, to the industry.

547
00:37:22,909 --> 00:37:25,489
So once you kind of walk us through how you're thinking about those two things.

548
00:37:26,429 --> 00:37:26,989
Yeah, absolutely.

549
00:37:26,989 --> 00:37:37,589
So first on the transaction, I mean, it was, if you've never gone through an M&A deal before, I highly recommend that you never do.

550
00:37:37,929 --> 00:37:39,709
It's like, it is the worst.

551
00:37:40,889 --> 00:37:44,069
Like, you would have thought it would have been easy to get this thing closed.

552
00:37:44,289 --> 00:37:49,209
When we launched Nakamoto, the goal of Nakamoto was to take BTC Inc. public, right?

553
00:37:49,209 --> 00:38:00,409
Like that was in every investment thing, like every, every communication that was talked about, it was like BTC Inc. and UTXO are going to be kind of the operating companies of this public vehicle.

554
00:38:00,649 --> 00:38:07,269
And the only issue is that like we didn't have PCA would be a financial audit, you know, so we had to like do that.

555
00:38:07,729 --> 00:38:10,169
And we couldn't go public until that was completed.

556
00:38:10,169 --> 00:38:12,109
And it took, you know, basically a year.

557
00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:24,469
So while we're doing that, we didn't want to just sit and wait for that to complete before we could go kind of get this public vehicle, try and do the treasury play.

558
00:38:24,949 --> 00:38:26,569
And so we launched Nakamoto ahead of it.

559
00:38:26,909 --> 00:38:33,889
We kind of create this option for Nakamoto to acquire BTC once the financials are audited.

560
00:38:34,489 --> 00:38:39,209
And then finally they get audited and then we do the transaction kind of as stipulated.

561
00:38:39,209 --> 00:38:44,629
And so it sounds on its face like that wouldn't have been a very difficult thing to do.

562
00:38:44,949 --> 00:38:47,689
But I'm telling you, it was chaos.

563
00:38:47,849 --> 00:39:01,429
And in fact, like, because we tried to solve it all up front, all that meant is that like there were these just narrow levers that could be pulled in order to allow the transaction to complete as stipulated.

564
00:39:01,429 --> 00:39:06,569
when the price had fluctuated massively in both directions

565
00:39:06,569 --> 00:39:08,789
between when we kind of inked the deal

566
00:39:08,789 --> 00:39:10,189
and when it was time to close it.

567
00:39:10,349 --> 00:39:14,369
And so it was a very difficult process

568
00:39:14,369 --> 00:39:17,149
and I never want to do it again.

569
00:39:17,729 --> 00:39:19,529
So that's first and foremost.

570
00:39:19,869 --> 00:39:22,329
I'm BTC and I don't have to worry about future M&A really.

571
00:39:23,169 --> 00:39:28,529
But I understand that I have a newfound sympathy

572
00:39:28,529 --> 00:39:30,929
for the investment bankers and the M&A people

573
00:39:30,929 --> 00:39:35,889
the M&A lawyers, it's like, man, that takes a lot of patience,

574
00:39:36,169 --> 00:39:40,989
of diligent work, of T's and C's and everything in between.

575
00:39:41,749 --> 00:39:43,989
And yeah, it's tough. It's tough.

576
00:39:44,509 --> 00:39:48,629
So, you know, without going back into like Vietnam in my head,

577
00:39:48,709 --> 00:39:52,309
we'll just set that aside and say, you know, we're happy it's complete.

578
00:39:52,489 --> 00:39:53,889
We're excited to be part of Nakamoto.

579
00:39:53,889 --> 00:40:00,409
We believe that we have everything we need to build –

580
00:40:00,929 --> 00:40:06,249
the best company in the world, frankly. And, you know, having Bitcoin as your savings tool,

581
00:40:06,609 --> 00:40:12,729
as you're building a business is just a massive unlock. There's just no two ways about it. You

582
00:40:12,729 --> 00:40:17,929
know, like, what else would you want to do with your treasury? Hold it in cash? You know, just

583
00:40:17,929 --> 00:40:23,909
buy back your stock and signal that you have no ideas of how to kind of grow your business beyond

584
00:40:23,909 --> 00:40:29,129
that. No, you want to own Bitcoin. Like you want to own hard money. You want to be able to leverage

585
00:40:29,129 --> 00:40:34,509
that into new investments you want to underwrite as a business or products you want to launch

586
00:40:34,509 --> 00:40:39,409
or, you know, M&A deals you may want to do in the future that I'm just not even going

587
00:40:39,409 --> 00:40:40,569
to try and play with.

588
00:40:40,649 --> 00:40:40,769
Right.

589
00:40:40,789 --> 00:40:44,969
Like those are all paths you can have when you have hard money that grows over time.

590
00:40:45,789 --> 00:40:51,149
And and so then the question on our end becomes like, well, what role do we have?

591
00:40:51,149 --> 00:40:57,869
The beauty of being a Bitcoin operating company is that your revenues and your size scales

592
00:40:57,869 --> 00:40:58,689
with Bitcoin.

593
00:40:59,129 --> 00:41:06,969
So this is like the difference between another company, if you were just, I don't know, a software company XYZ, right?

594
00:41:07,369 --> 00:41:09,709
And you do a Bitcoin treasury play.

595
00:41:10,249 --> 00:41:16,029
You know, at first, you may have tons of profits that you're putting into Bitcoin and, you know, it's great.

596
00:41:16,029 --> 00:41:23,469
But then when Bitcoin 10Xs, all of a sudden your profits are kind of tiny compared to where Bitcoin is at now, you know?

597
00:41:23,509 --> 00:41:28,129
And so you kind of diminish your ability to increase the Bitcoin treasury over time.

598
00:41:28,129 --> 00:41:51,269
Whereas if you're a Bitcoin company, usually your revenues, your profits, your size of your business is going to scale with Bitcoin. And so that allows you, especially in bull markets to the upside, that allows you to grow the treasury even more than you otherwise would have been able to do as just a regular operating public company.

599
00:41:51,269 --> 00:41:58,009
So, you know, that's part of the idea of what we want to do is, and I mean, again, all of this is just publicly stated.

600
00:41:58,229 --> 00:42:00,889
Like, we want to be a profitable business.

601
00:42:01,089 --> 00:42:03,169
We want to buy Bitcoin with the profits.

602
00:42:03,169 --> 00:42:04,569
We want to add those to the treasury.

603
00:42:05,089 --> 00:42:06,509
We want to grow the treasury over time.

604
00:42:06,589 --> 00:42:09,409
Like, all of that is what we want to accomplish.

605
00:42:09,989 --> 00:42:15,729
And I think that that's just a fundamentally kind of new concept in the public market space.

606
00:42:16,249 --> 00:42:19,369
So, you know, we're very excited to continue to run this.

607
00:42:19,369 --> 00:42:22,689
This isn't a, you know, a two year trade, right?

608
00:42:23,009 --> 00:42:26,469
You know, this is a business we've run our entire professional lives.

609
00:42:26,469 --> 00:42:28,609
We're going to continue to run our entire professional lives.

610
00:42:29,209 --> 00:42:31,629
And, you know, we're in it for the long run.

611
00:42:31,789 --> 00:42:34,729
So I'm very bullish on where it's going to go.

612
00:42:35,389 --> 00:42:48,029
And, you know, not to say that there hasn't been plenty of kind of challenges and heartburn and, you know, just chaos with, you know, managing a public company for the first time.

613
00:42:48,029 --> 00:43:00,689
And, you know, David is really had to weather a storm of just criticism and all sorts of stuff, you know, kind of around his crazy run up on the stock.

614
00:43:00,749 --> 00:43:09,009
And then the, you know, crazy kind of, you know, I don't know, pushing down of the stock price and moving down to the stock price.

615
00:43:09,009 --> 00:43:13,049
And so, you know, he's a first time public company CEO.

616
00:43:13,389 --> 00:43:16,029
Like you only learn that by trial by the fire.

617
00:43:16,029 --> 00:43:19,569
and he's been learning it in real time.

618
00:43:19,889 --> 00:43:21,689
So the good news is,

619
00:43:21,869 --> 00:43:23,049
and I said this in the beginning

620
00:43:23,049 --> 00:43:24,489
when I was talking about being an intern

621
00:43:24,489 --> 00:43:26,969
and with our conference too,

622
00:43:27,469 --> 00:43:28,969
we're fast learners, right?

623
00:43:28,989 --> 00:43:29,809
We make mistakes.

624
00:43:29,969 --> 00:43:31,289
We don't make the same mistake twice.

625
00:43:32,149 --> 00:43:37,989
And so I'm very bullish on our ability to level up

626
00:43:37,989 --> 00:43:40,469
as we continue to operate, as we continue to grow.

627
00:43:41,209 --> 00:43:42,429
And like I said,

628
00:43:42,569 --> 00:43:43,989
I think we have the best company in the world.

629
00:43:43,989 --> 00:43:46,929
So I'm very bullish on kind of our future.

630
00:43:48,329 --> 00:43:48,709
I love it.

631
00:43:49,429 --> 00:43:54,849
I think it's, yeah, it's very, it's important to point out, you know, I think a lot of people

632
00:43:54,849 --> 00:43:59,869
on the finance side are just, if they see that underlying operating business that is

633
00:43:59,869 --> 00:44:07,209
profitable, that is really, I think, all really that I want to see, right, is just how does

634
00:44:07,209 --> 00:44:07,989
this sustain?

635
00:44:08,169 --> 00:44:09,469
So I appreciate you speaking on that.

636
00:44:09,469 --> 00:44:17,269
this episode is brought to you by satoshi paccioli a full-service accounting and tax firm built for

637
00:44:17,269 --> 00:44:22,249
the bitcoin economy if you run a bitcoin business mine bitcoin or invest in it you need advisors who

638
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639
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640
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they speak the language of bitcoiners and help you stay compliant while building for the long

641
00:44:35,549 --> 00:44:43,929
term to learn more or book consultation visit satoshipacioli.com um if we could pivot real

642
00:44:43,929 --> 00:44:49,149
like to a different topic and turn but still stay on like dissecting narratives you know

643
00:44:49,149 --> 00:44:54,149
the world i come from right is is the tax world and like we're in the heat attack season we're

644
00:44:54,149 --> 00:44:59,909
helping people with their cost basis and all that kind of stuff and i'm just curious um

645
00:44:59,909 --> 00:45:14,169
And one of the big narratives that I am seeing in my everyday work life is this medium of exchange. And then, of course, like I think it was yesterday, all of the square terminals went online for Bitcoin payments.

646
00:45:14,909 --> 00:45:27,949
And then I know, obviously, you guys have gotten involved with politics to the degree that, you know, it's helpful to bring people in, whether it's Lamas or Trump, to speak on Bitcoin and give it legitimacy.

647
00:45:27,949 --> 00:45:49,749
But when it comes to like the policy that like the nitty gritty, I feel like we're kind of at this very pivotal point where, you know, if history is a teacher of politics, you know, the midterms are going to go, I think, a very specific way, right, where Congress is going to flip back over and we're not going to have a path to get to minimus.

648
00:45:49,749 --> 00:46:11,289
So I just wanted to get your thoughts on what role you all see the event coming up playing in trying to get that across the finish line in the reconciliation in a summer reconciliation bill, because it feels like that's kind of the only the only option that's on the table right now to get it done.

649
00:46:11,289 --> 00:46:18,029
Yeah, really great question. And, you know, let me preface all of this by saying that I am,

650
00:46:18,169 --> 00:46:24,069
I have no background in policy, I have no background in politics. Like, like everything,

651
00:46:24,069 --> 00:46:28,729
we've sort of stumbled our way into the position that we, you know, have found ourselves kind of

652
00:46:28,729 --> 00:46:35,769
since 2024. So there's a couple of things to pick on there. Number one is, you know,

653
00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:41,209
this de minimis exemption. I agree, it's, it's so important. And it's important for

654
00:46:41,289 --> 00:46:46,249
Um, many reasons, but the most obvious being like, you know, you can't buy a cup of coffee

655
00:46:46,249 --> 00:46:50,709
with Bitcoin if you have to track your, you know, three cent capital gains, you know,

656
00:46:50,749 --> 00:46:55,509
thing that you then are somehow going to be at fault for if you don't pay, you know, it's

657
00:46:55,509 --> 00:47:01,109
like, it's just, it, it prevents Bitcoin from being its ultimate use case, which is money.

658
00:47:01,109 --> 00:47:01,509
Right.

659
00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:06,749
And, um, and so we want to be able to allow for that.

660
00:47:06,749 --> 00:47:17,469
And what's interesting is as we have navigated that issue, there's a couple of challenges that have sort of emerged.

661
00:47:17,469 --> 00:47:25,489
So, man, like DC is a political machine.

662
00:47:26,629 --> 00:47:35,149
And so if you want to have a win, even if it's a common sense win, if one side is pushing for it, at this point, the other side is against it.

663
00:47:35,529 --> 00:47:40,429
And they're only against it maybe in spirit so that they can get a concession somewhere down the road.

664
00:47:40,509 --> 00:47:42,829
And they can say like, oh, look, we compromised here.

665
00:47:42,949 --> 00:47:44,509
So now you're going to compromise there.

666
00:47:44,509 --> 00:48:06,209
Even if it's a thing that like, why the heck are you compromising on this? You should be just for this, right? And specifically to the de minimis exemption for Bitcoin, you have this whole, I forget the name of it, but the sort of body that decides the cost of certain line items of a bill, right?

667
00:48:06,209 --> 00:48:18,949
You know, how does this affect the U.S. budget? And creating a de minimis exemption for Bitcoin is viewed by that body as actually it's net negative to the U.S. tax revenues.

668
00:48:18,949 --> 00:48:37,489
And so if you just take that away, then all of a sudden the bill becomes a cost to the U.S. taxpayer. And so the idea is, OK, you'd have to like now balance out this cost with some new revenue or, you know, something. Otherwise, your bill is kind of labeled as, you know, adding to the deficit. Right.

669
00:48:37,489 --> 00:48:49,589
And so the actual narrative that we are having to battle right now in D.C. is that erasing the de minimis exemption on Bitcoin increases the U.S. deficit.

670
00:48:50,429 --> 00:48:55,749
Like, if you don't pay your three cent tax on your cup of coffee, the U.S. deficit is going to explode.

671
00:48:55,849 --> 00:48:56,429
It's all your fault.

672
00:48:56,989 --> 00:49:03,109
So, you know, like, the irony of that is sweeter than could be.

673
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:05,449
But we'll just set that aside.

674
00:49:05,449 --> 00:49:17,349
Like that is that is why it's not just the most obvious win here. And again, it's not to say that it won't happen, but it means that there's going to have to be a compromise that struck in order for it to happen.

675
00:49:17,349 --> 00:49:28,509
And so that makes it really challenging for it to go in something like the Clarity Act, because the Clarity Act isn't really supposed to add to the deficit.

676
00:49:28,769 --> 00:49:39,909
You know, it's like it's this sort of regulatory clarity bill, not necessarily a like funding or finance bill of, you know, the U.S. government.

677
00:49:40,149 --> 00:49:44,929
And so, you know, there's there's a little bit of interest in like separating the P's and Q's.

678
00:49:44,929 --> 00:49:48,329
I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm saying like, that's kind of the field as I see it.

679
00:49:49,169 --> 00:49:53,349
And so then the question becomes like, can we get to minimus before the midterms? Like you said,

680
00:49:53,389 --> 00:49:58,269
maybe there's this reconciliation bill and summer, yada, yada. I think that obviously,

681
00:49:58,529 --> 00:50:01,589
you know, someone like Lummis is going to be pushing really hard for this. I think she actually

682
00:50:01,589 --> 00:50:06,349
just introduced a brand new bill to try and get to minimus across before, you know, the midterms.

683
00:50:06,909 --> 00:50:12,989
And, and my honest answer is like, I don't know whether it's going to be possible if it's possible.

684
00:50:12,989 --> 00:50:25,349
I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying that like this is going to get into the inner workings of how D.C. operates. And, you know, that is, I think, by design, the blackest of black boxes.

685
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:35,349
And so I, you know, what I'll say on the flip side is I know that the Trump administration would love to see a de minimis exemption.

686
00:50:36,029 --> 00:50:45,589
You know, like Trump wants to deliver for Bitcoiners. Right. And so there is this tension between what is what does the legislature want to do?

687
00:50:46,049 --> 00:50:49,669
And and, you know, the kind of what I would call like the proverbial swamp. Right.

688
00:50:49,669 --> 00:50:55,009
Like what do those people want to do versus like what does the administration want to do and how does that get translated?

689
00:50:55,349 --> 00:51:22,529
And, you know, in that comes all sorts of competing interests. And I was actually talking about this on a show just the other day. But like, you know, if I was going to criticize kind of how everything has gone down with the Trump administration so far, and again, this is not a critique of the Trump administration, this is a critique of us, is that Bitcoiners had no infrastructure in D.C. outside of like BPI and, you know, a couple of people.

690
00:51:22,529 --> 00:51:30,709
the entire infrastructure in DC was crypto. And so when something like a Trump administration comes

691
00:51:30,709 --> 00:51:34,729
in and, you know, they have kind of these things they can do within the administration,

692
00:51:35,049 --> 00:51:40,529
right, to support Bitcoin, to support the industry, they do those things, right? Like we got the SBR,

693
00:51:40,529 --> 00:51:45,349
we freed Ross, we, you know, we did a lot of the things that Trump said he wanted to do that he

694
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:51,469
could do from the executive branch. And then all the things that required the congressional action

695
00:51:51,469 --> 00:51:57,949
in order to make happen, that got filtered through the crypto apparatus of DC.

696
00:51:58,509 --> 00:52:01,929
And there are just competing interests there.

697
00:52:02,709 --> 00:52:06,269
And it's not like any, and this is where like, you know, we were pulling our hair out a little

698
00:52:06,269 --> 00:52:06,529
bit.

699
00:52:06,809 --> 00:52:10,089
It's not like there's anything wrong with the interest that they have.

700
00:52:10,169 --> 00:52:13,209
There's nothing wrong with, you know, a stable coin bill.

701
00:52:13,309 --> 00:52:16,369
There's nothing wrong with, you know, a Clarity Act, all these kinds of things.

702
00:52:16,369 --> 00:52:27,149
We're not against these things happening, but it's the prioritization of them that I think was very short sighted because everyone could agree on a Bitcoin bill.

703
00:52:27,789 --> 00:52:37,669
Everyone could agree that, you know, helping cement Bitcoin as as like an important tool of the U.S. and like a mainstay in our economy like that is good.

704
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:39,689
That is good for the whole industry. Right.

705
00:52:39,689 --> 00:52:45,369
but you know these people that are getting paid to advance policy initiatives on the stablecoin

706
00:52:45,369 --> 00:52:50,789
side they were like we got to get stablecoins done you know like we got to do it and and they're the

707
00:52:50,789 --> 00:52:56,469
ones talking to the congressional leaders in the senate every day and so all of a sudden in this

708
00:52:56,469 --> 00:53:04,989
translation of the administration uh prerogative to the sort of legislative agenda uh stablecoins

709
00:53:04,989 --> 00:53:09,469
became the the priority and it's like how did that happen well it happened because the bitcoiners

710
00:53:09,469 --> 00:53:12,249
weren't kind of guiding that conversation.

711
00:53:12,569 --> 00:53:13,269
It was Tether.

712
00:53:13,489 --> 00:53:14,549
You know, it was USDC.

713
00:53:14,669 --> 00:53:15,369
It was Coinbase, right?

714
00:53:15,429 --> 00:53:16,809
It was those folks who were like,

715
00:53:16,869 --> 00:53:20,309
how do we kind of create wins for the entire industry?

716
00:53:21,189 --> 00:53:22,749
And then, you know, the inevitability

717
00:53:22,749 --> 00:53:25,249
of both the stable coin bill of the Genius Act

718
00:53:25,249 --> 00:53:27,129
and of the Clarity Bill

719
00:53:27,129 --> 00:53:31,109
is that you had opposing sides within the industry itself.

720
00:53:32,249 --> 00:53:35,129
And what that meant is that you didn't have,

721
00:53:35,549 --> 00:53:36,969
like it was a Pyrrhic victory

722
00:53:36,969 --> 00:53:39,069
to get both of those deals done.

723
00:53:39,469 --> 00:53:59,569
And you had all of Congress being like, wow, you know, to get anything done for you guys is like pulling teeth. And, you know, everyone is having to compromise on one thing or the other. And you guys don't even have your own priority set. You don't even know what you want out of this bill. You know, like you're bickering with each other, right?

724
00:53:59,569 --> 00:54:28,109
You know, for stable coins, it's like, you know, the, you know, Tether versus USDC, right? And, you know, how easy is it for Tether to operate? How easy is it for USDC to operate? What's this yield thing? Athena, you know, like all of these kind of different priorities of how a stable coin works, all of that was fluttering around. And now you don't have like a clear path forward of how to just like easily make everything win for the stable coin industry. And then you have the banks, you know, and then now the banks are also upset, right?

725
00:54:28,109 --> 00:54:38,309
And so all these legislatures are like, oh, I thought this was going to be easy, you know, and instead like I'm sifting through a war that's been going on, as we know, for like years in the crypto space.

726
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:48,029
And then the same thing happens with clarity between, you know, the banks as well as the exchanges, the layer one protocols, the DeFi protocols.

727
00:54:48,189 --> 00:54:56,629
They all want something different out of this. Right. And so then you run into the same issue where it's not an easy win for these guys to get this legislation across.

728
00:54:56,629 --> 00:55:08,674
because the industry isn all on the same page of what they want And so then all of these compromises have to happen Tons of political capital is spent And by the end of it Congress is just like

729
00:55:08,734 --> 00:55:11,274
okay, let's go focus on our bread and butter issues over here.

730
00:55:12,073 --> 00:55:14,053
And let's move on.

731
00:55:14,774 --> 00:55:18,274
And so that's where ultimately Bitcoin has been, in my opinion,

732
00:55:18,854 --> 00:55:20,674
deprioritized and left by the wayside.

733
00:55:21,314 --> 00:55:24,734
And it is frustrating from my perspective for a lot of reasons.

734
00:55:25,474 --> 00:55:26,994
At the end of the day, it's all incentives.

735
00:55:26,994 --> 00:55:29,194
I don't fault anyone personally for it.

736
00:55:29,593 --> 00:55:32,534
I think everyone's trying to just like do the right thing for themselves.

737
00:55:34,214 --> 00:55:36,234
But it's not the ideal outcome, that's for sure.

738
00:55:36,794 --> 00:55:47,334
So, you know, in some, because I know I'm rambling here, but in some, like I think that will we see De Minimis before the midterms?

739
00:55:47,414 --> 00:55:47,874
I don't know.

740
00:55:48,474 --> 00:55:50,234
Frankly, I really don't.

741
00:55:50,474 --> 00:55:51,534
I'd love to see it.

742
00:55:51,534 --> 00:55:55,354
but I just have a feeling that, you know,

743
00:55:55,374 --> 00:55:58,954
we're not going to see the wins that we want until the back half of the

744
00:55:58,954 --> 00:56:01,073
administration, if it's even possible by that point.

745
00:56:04,294 --> 00:56:07,834
That's really interesting, Brandon. No, I appreciate you sharing that, man.

746
00:56:07,894 --> 00:56:10,474
Cause no, I didn't, I didn't know that, or, you know,

747
00:56:11,374 --> 00:56:14,593
that helps me better kind of, uh, understand.

748
00:56:14,593 --> 00:56:18,934
It's an impossible situation, honestly. Yeah. And, and again, like,

749
00:56:18,934 --> 00:56:19,794
I don't fault anybody.

750
00:56:20,394 --> 00:56:21,474
Everyone's doing their jobs.

751
00:56:21,474 --> 00:56:22,954
Like they're doing what they're supposed to do.

752
00:56:23,633 --> 00:56:30,633
You know, and, and all of it is going to ultimately probably be good for the whole industry writ large in the end.

753
00:56:30,674 --> 00:56:30,974
Right.

754
00:56:31,414 --> 00:56:33,894
So it's, it's like, I'm not like slaying my fists.

755
00:56:33,894 --> 00:56:36,474
I'm not saying anyone's a bad actor here or anything like that.

756
00:56:36,794 --> 00:56:44,694
I'm just saying that because of all of this prioritization of other stuff, I think Bitcoin is going to get, has been deprioritized.

757
00:56:45,053 --> 00:56:48,133
And, you know, I would have loved to see kind of those wins happen first.

758
00:56:48,934 --> 00:56:57,573
Do you see anything like with the megaphone that we have in a month that can try to, I

759
00:56:57,573 --> 00:57:00,314
guess, create a like a sense of urgency?

760
00:57:00,314 --> 00:57:05,294
I think I've always felt that with Bitcoiners that they want to see something happen.

761
00:57:05,633 --> 00:57:09,214
They are disillusioned with the whole political process.

762
00:57:09,374 --> 00:57:13,034
And so they are just like, whatever, like ethic kind of thing.

763
00:57:13,093 --> 00:57:15,234
I'm just not even going to participate.

764
00:57:15,234 --> 00:57:34,434
But in order to bring this to the normie class of Americans and have people have the ability to spend Bitcoin at a local cafe using a square terminal, I think that tax burden, the cost basis burden for the person who's like, I just don't want to go to jail.

765
00:57:34,934 --> 00:57:38,234
Bitcoin seems interesting to me, but I'm not going to track all this stuff.

766
00:57:38,754 --> 00:57:39,874
It's just too much.

767
00:57:39,874 --> 00:57:50,633
Or the business owner on the other side is like, I'm not going to accept Bitcoin or I'm going to convert it immediately to cash because I don't want to track cost basis for when we need to sell to pay our cover our payroll.

768
00:57:51,113 --> 00:57:53,974
I guess that's my my main question is like the megaphone.

769
00:57:54,274 --> 00:58:02,194
Is there anything specific that you think that we might be able to do within a month to to try to get that across the finish line, create that urgency?

770
00:58:03,274 --> 00:58:07,834
Yeah, I mean, I think that we're obviously going to have conversations around it at the conference.

771
00:58:07,834 --> 00:58:11,354
Um, so, you know, I, I'm hopeful we can help move the needle.

772
00:58:11,994 --> 00:58:18,834
Um, but I don't know, you know, it's like, sometimes you can create a crazy, uh, uh,

773
00:58:18,974 --> 00:58:22,014
shelling point around, you know, something like a Trump coming to speak.

774
00:58:22,014 --> 00:58:26,734
And, you know, I, I believe that sort of changed the course of our whole industry's history.

775
00:58:26,734 --> 00:58:27,054
Right.

776
00:58:27,194 --> 00:58:31,514
Um, but it's, it's a little bit like, you know, it's art more than science.

777
00:58:31,514 --> 00:58:31,874
Right.

778
00:58:31,874 --> 00:58:36,014
And at the end of the day, like everything has to come together in the right way in order

779
00:58:36,014 --> 00:58:40,014
for you to be able to leverage that platform

780
00:58:40,014 --> 00:58:42,133
to make that kind of impact and change.

781
00:58:43,073 --> 00:58:47,554
And yeah, I just, it's an interesting moment in time.

782
00:58:47,914 --> 00:58:50,234
You know, all of this goes back to what I prefaced.

783
00:58:50,314 --> 00:58:51,394
Like I'm not a policy expert.

784
00:58:51,994 --> 00:58:55,294
So I couldn't tell you, if I could map out

785
00:58:55,294 --> 00:58:58,174
like if we get this to happen, then this will happen,

786
00:58:58,274 --> 00:58:59,434
which will cause this to happen,

787
00:58:59,434 --> 00:59:01,394
which will cause, you know, De Minimis to get passed,

788
00:59:01,874 --> 00:59:03,294
then I would have already, you know,

789
00:59:03,374 --> 00:59:05,113
like we would have already cooked that up

790
00:59:05,113 --> 00:59:06,794
and that would already be, you know, in flight.

791
00:59:06,874 --> 00:59:07,714
We wouldn't have done that last year.

792
00:59:08,354 --> 00:59:10,554
But the, you know, the reality is,

793
00:59:10,573 --> 00:59:13,034
is like it is a black box

794
00:59:13,034 --> 00:59:16,794
and all we can do is shed as much light

795
00:59:16,794 --> 00:59:18,234
as possible on the issue,

796
00:59:18,894 --> 00:59:21,573
be as clear as possible as a community

797
00:59:21,573 --> 00:59:23,034
of what we want to see,

798
00:59:23,694 --> 00:59:25,434
and then vote for the people

799
00:59:25,434 --> 00:59:27,994
that enact the things that we want to see.

800
00:59:28,133 --> 00:59:29,593
You know, like all we can,

801
00:59:29,694 --> 00:59:30,994
we have like one lever here.

802
00:59:31,093 --> 00:59:32,834
It's like the people that aren't doing this,

803
00:59:32,914 --> 00:59:33,514
they need to leave.

804
00:59:33,514 --> 00:59:39,654
the people that are doing this, they need to stay. And, you know, that's like our best kind of

805
00:59:39,654 --> 00:59:46,294
leverage that we have on the system. And it's strong leverage. It's worked, you know, pretty

806
00:59:46,294 --> 00:59:54,354
well generally so far. But in order for us to be able to, you know, if we were going to fix the

807
00:59:54,354 --> 00:59:59,694
issue that I highlighted at the beginning, which is this prioritization process, that is going to

808
00:59:59,694 --> 01:00:07,914
require an apparatus many apparati in dc interfacing with these uh politicians not just

809
01:00:07,914 --> 01:00:13,294
like a bpi you know that's a um you know it's an education it's a 501c3 you know they're not

810
01:00:13,294 --> 01:00:18,834
lobbyists i'm talking like we need lobbyists we need pack money we need like all of this kind of

811
01:00:18,834 --> 01:00:24,934
stuff why i always wanted to be a lobbyist so we should say there you go uh hard to do that from

812
01:00:24,934 --> 01:00:31,934
Denver. But, you know, yeah, that's what we would need in order to actually compete with, you know,

813
01:00:31,974 --> 01:00:38,174
the existing infrastructure that's already out there. And, you know, the reality is, and again,

814
01:00:38,174 --> 01:00:43,073
I don't want this to come off as me like throwing sand in anyone's eyes or anything like that. But,

815
01:00:43,734 --> 01:00:49,573
you know, when you have the sort of VC apparatus that has existed around crypto,

816
01:00:49,573 --> 01:00:59,894
When you have the token, you know, issuance and selling on retail that, you know, creates this free money for these different protocols, etc., etc.

817
01:01:00,414 --> 01:01:05,613
There's just a lot of money in that part of the industry.

818
01:01:06,834 --> 01:01:16,093
And there's like there's not that level of funding and financing of the Bitcoiners because, you know, like we have to kind of build it authentically from scratch.

819
01:01:16,093 --> 01:01:18,034
and it's a little less sexy

820
01:01:18,034 --> 01:01:19,234
and it's a little more work

821
01:01:19,234 --> 01:01:20,694
and you don't really just have

822
01:01:20,694 --> 01:01:22,934
the massive multi-million dollar policy budget

823
01:01:22,934 --> 01:01:23,654
to go through around.

824
01:01:23,874 --> 01:01:26,914
So it's just going to come with time.

825
01:01:27,474 --> 01:01:28,974
That's the best I can say

826
01:01:28,974 --> 01:01:31,374
is the difference between us and them

827
01:01:31,374 --> 01:01:33,414
is like our power only grows with time.

828
01:01:33,814 --> 01:01:35,434
Our influence only grows with time.

829
01:01:35,974 --> 01:01:37,894
We have a stable foundation that we're growing on.

830
01:01:37,934 --> 01:01:38,754
That's the whole point of Bitcoin.

831
01:01:39,314 --> 01:01:40,274
And so at some point,

832
01:01:40,294 --> 01:01:41,214
we're going to get to minimus.

833
01:01:41,514 --> 01:01:43,073
At some point, we're going to ensure

834
01:01:43,073 --> 01:01:45,334
that the strategic reserve is enshrined in law.

835
01:01:45,334 --> 01:01:50,214
at some point we're going to get everything we want at some point the the president will be

836
01:01:50,214 --> 01:01:55,294
uh just one of us bitcoiners you know he was like whose whose turn is it to kind of run the country

837
01:01:55,294 --> 01:02:00,133
right like that's where we're all headed eventually um but we just got to lower our

838
01:02:00,133 --> 01:02:03,174
time preference a little bit i think on on you know when it's all going to come together

839
01:02:03,174 --> 01:02:14,454
yeah that's beautifully said brandon um i haven't gotten a great question yet so i know we're almost

840
01:02:14,454 --> 01:02:20,454
at a time so i'm gonna ask one more yeah i knew why i was gonna bring that up i knew he's gonna

841
01:02:20,454 --> 01:02:24,494
we're so competitive every time i was like i don't even think these are that good questions

842
01:02:24,494 --> 01:02:31,514
uh i think all the questions have been great by the way and i apologize for rambling so uh you

843
01:02:31,514 --> 01:02:35,754
know you get what you get i appreciated it brandon i knew i was gonna rub him

844
01:02:35,754 --> 01:02:45,234
uh no they were phenomenal phenomenal answers but um maybe just and on a more optimistic note here

845
01:02:45,234 --> 01:02:51,034
you can you can keep this as brief as you like um or as long as you like to i've been really

846
01:02:51,034 --> 01:02:54,554
impressed with you guys at btc and kind of you know branching out into different you know things

847
01:02:54,554 --> 01:02:58,914
within the the bitcoin ecosystem you start with the magazine moving events adding you know bitcoin

848
01:02:58,914 --> 01:03:04,154
for corporations like all these things what opportunities do you think in bitcoin that are

849
01:03:04,154 --> 01:03:08,874
still like untapped like if you had to start over from scratch you know put your entrepreneur hat on

850
01:03:08,874 --> 01:03:17,754
like where are you starting yeah great question thank you thank you uh and and i would also just

851
01:03:17,754 --> 01:03:24,633
preface this by saying like let's set the whole ai thing to the side for now because i think that

852
01:03:24,633 --> 01:03:30,714
that's like you know the craziest part of building a company right now is that you have a truly just

853
01:03:30,714 --> 01:03:38,514
like outsized force coming in from left field and in the way that like AI is just disrupting

854
01:03:38,514 --> 01:03:47,093
everything that it, you know, a lot of business models, a lot of ways by which people would

855
01:03:47,093 --> 01:03:50,014
build businesses in the past have just been totally upended.

856
01:03:50,954 --> 01:03:53,714
And, you know, it also creates like massive opportunity.

857
01:03:53,934 --> 01:03:56,474
Anyone can go build a company right now and leverage these tools.

858
01:03:56,474 --> 01:04:01,514
but on the flip side, anyone can go build a company right now and leverage these tools, right?

859
01:04:01,613 --> 01:04:03,214
So it's like competition is going to be fierce.

860
01:04:03,534 --> 01:04:09,093
There's going to be a lot of new companies coming on and the best will succeed.

861
01:04:09,814 --> 01:04:15,133
But where I see in Bitcoin right now, it's the narrative that I was kind of spinning a second ago,

862
01:04:15,334 --> 01:04:22,374
which is the Bitcoin maximalist point of view is to create a Bitcoin product or service

863
01:04:22,374 --> 01:04:24,414
in every pool of capital in the world.

864
01:04:24,414 --> 01:04:44,194
And like we are just barely scratching the surface of the different pools of capital that could be buying Bitcoin. And, you know, like I would say right now we've got sort of public equities and most massive public capital markets at this point. And that's it.

865
01:04:44,194 --> 01:04:55,214
And then we have, you know, the fixed income in the U.S. And so, you know, building a fixed income product for, you know, any of these other public markets, I think would be a great place to start.

866
01:04:55,214 --> 01:05:07,514
I think the Bitbond, whenever it comes to fruition, will be probably another order of magnitude unlock from what Stretch looks like right now.

867
01:05:07,574 --> 01:05:09,034
Maybe a couple orders of magnitude.

868
01:05:10,194 --> 01:05:11,354
Municipal bonds.

869
01:05:11,994 --> 01:05:16,214
I think it's hard to even...

870
01:05:17,034 --> 01:05:19,794
I'm not an expert on all of these different pools of capital.

871
01:05:19,794 --> 01:05:27,474
Right. You know, it's hard to even like just walk you through every single thing that's going to be disrupted by sort of a Bitcoin product coming to market.

872
01:05:27,914 --> 01:05:37,034
So but yeah, I just I imagine that in the end we will get to a point where every dollar that you deploy.

873
01:05:38,074 --> 01:05:41,894
Someone on the other side will at least be using a part of that to buy Bitcoin.

874
01:05:43,234 --> 01:05:49,394
And so if you see a place right now where dollars are being deployed in mass and no one's buying Bitcoin on the other side of it.

875
01:05:49,794 --> 01:05:52,254
then I think that's an opportunity for you to go build a product.

876
01:05:53,434 --> 01:05:56,174
And, you know, apply that everywhere, man.

877
01:05:56,254 --> 01:05:59,254
I mean, you know, to the point of the operating companies even,

878
01:06:00,133 --> 01:06:05,054
you know, if you see a company that builds MRI machines

879
01:06:05,054 --> 01:06:09,234
and, you know, they're basically taking basic parts,

880
01:06:09,314 --> 01:06:10,474
they're turning it into an MRI machine,

881
01:06:10,633 --> 01:06:12,093
they're selling it for a massive premium,

882
01:06:12,374 --> 01:06:14,374
they're collecting a big bag on the back end, you know,

883
01:06:14,414 --> 01:06:16,133
because it's just this complex thing that's hard to build,

884
01:06:16,494 --> 01:06:17,633
and then they're sticking that in cash.

885
01:06:17,633 --> 01:06:22,754
well if you went and built a MRI machine or you just bought that company and put all the cash in

886
01:06:22,754 --> 01:06:27,414
Bitcoin like that is a better product that is a better company than the one that just buys cash

887
01:06:27,414 --> 01:06:33,113
with it so even like this whole I don't know I hate to use the term like PE like private equity

888
01:06:33,113 --> 01:06:40,254
but a private equity model where instead you are just taking cash flowing businesses and

889
01:06:40,254 --> 01:06:46,954
pointing the cash flow into Bitcoin that will drive dividends like you that will be one of the

890
01:06:46,954 --> 01:06:52,414
most profitable companies, you know, pools of capital out there is if you can just activist

891
01:06:52,414 --> 01:06:55,694
turn fiat companies into Bitcoin companies.

892
01:06:56,133 --> 01:07:00,854
So, yeah, that would be my wide ranging answer to that question.

893
01:07:01,034 --> 01:07:05,934
It's hard to pin down like a specific example of like this company doesn't exist right now,

894
01:07:05,994 --> 01:07:06,434
but it should.

895
01:07:06,434 --> 01:07:15,434
I also think like insurance is a big opportunity, both from like DNO and custody and, you know,

896
01:07:15,434 --> 01:07:18,874
some of these things that just everyone's going to need more and more of as we go.

897
01:07:19,434 --> 01:07:28,074
But also finding ways to just leverage Bitcoin in the insurance model is, I think, going to be a massive unlock.

898
01:07:28,074 --> 01:07:32,574
So, yeah, maybe that would be like, I guess, my singular answer to that question.

899
01:07:33,054 --> 01:07:33,994
If I were to take one.

900
01:07:35,034 --> 01:07:36,174
No, it's a great one. I love it.

901
01:07:37,054 --> 01:07:37,374
Yeah.

902
01:07:37,694 --> 01:07:39,254
Brandon, thank you so much for coming on.

903
01:07:39,334 --> 01:07:41,794
We want to make sure we're respectful of your time.

904
01:07:42,394 --> 01:07:43,273
Yeah, sorry, I went over.

905
01:07:43,273 --> 01:07:46,093
I know we were saying this is going to be like a 45-minute convo.

906
01:07:46,354 --> 01:07:46,454
Yeah.

907
01:07:47,654 --> 01:07:48,593
No, it's all good.

908
01:07:49,054 --> 01:07:49,273
All right.

909
01:07:49,334 --> 01:07:59,234
So if someone for some reason is not already planning to come to Vegas, how did they find out how to buy a ticket, get accommodations, all that stuff?

910
01:07:59,954 --> 01:08:03,113
Yeah, just go to 2026.b.tc.

911
01:08:03,874 --> 01:08:05,434
That's our conference website.

912
01:08:05,754 --> 01:08:07,133
You'll see all the information there.

913
01:08:07,214 --> 01:08:08,194
You can get your tickets there.

914
01:08:08,254 --> 01:08:09,294
You can get your hotel there.

915
01:08:10,273 --> 01:08:12,273
It's coming up soon.

916
01:08:12,273 --> 01:08:22,494
So you'll want to, you know, book now. I think we got I think our prices are increasing this week, too. So definitely don't wait around. And yeah, all I'll say is.

917
01:08:24,014 --> 01:08:37,614
You know, the the bear market events, I kind of said this in the beginning, the bear market events is where the magic happens like this. If you want to work in the space, you know, if you get a job in the space in the bull market, there's a decent chance your job goes away in the bear market.

918
01:08:37,614 --> 01:08:42,494
if you get a job in the space in the bear market, there's a decent chance that by the bull market,

919
01:08:42,733 --> 01:08:46,873
you know, you're going to have a massive team under you. You're going to have, you know,

920
01:08:46,873 --> 01:08:50,534
huge responsibility. You will have already leveled up in the company multiple times

921
01:08:50,534 --> 01:08:56,314
because the grind is on right now and the great people get hired. And then those people have

922
01:08:56,314 --> 01:09:01,534
massive latitude to do big things in the organizations. Similarly, the companies that

923
01:09:01,534 --> 01:09:08,213
get funded in the bear market, like those are companies that will grow massively in the bull

924
01:09:08,213 --> 01:09:12,514
market because they're not constrained by capital in the same way that, you know, other bear market

925
01:09:12,514 --> 01:09:16,674
companies might be. So if you're looking to start a company, if you're looking to launch a company,

926
01:09:17,354 --> 01:09:20,354
this is the best time to do it. This is the best time to go find your co-founder.

927
01:09:21,174 --> 01:09:24,914
If you're looking to get funding for your company, this is the best time to go pitch investors.

928
01:09:25,354 --> 01:09:29,434
You know, they're not getting flooded by a whole bunch of, you know, random projects that

929
01:09:29,434 --> 01:09:32,674
just launched yesterday, you know, like they're, they're looking for quality.

930
01:09:34,054 --> 01:09:40,134
If you are, you know, feeling down on your Bitcoin stack, because it's, you know, drawn

931
01:09:40,134 --> 01:09:44,974
down 50% from all time highs, this is a great time to just like go hang out with other Bitcoiners

932
01:09:44,974 --> 01:09:49,793
that are in the exact same position as you, you know, it's like the ego's gone. Everyone's humbled.

933
01:09:50,373 --> 01:09:54,333
You're in the bear market, you can just go enjoy your time with other people,

934
01:09:54,333 --> 01:09:59,314
with other Bitcoiners who have gone through the same cycle,

935
01:09:59,554 --> 01:10:03,793
the same ups, the same downs as you have,

936
01:10:03,894 --> 01:10:05,914
and they have the same outlook on it as you.

937
01:10:06,134 --> 01:10:08,314
And there's a camaraderie that's built there.

938
01:10:08,314 --> 01:10:13,174
There's a feeling, a deeper understanding of what Bitcoin is for.

939
01:10:13,534 --> 01:10:14,994
It's a great feeling.

940
01:10:15,253 --> 01:10:19,354
And again, the guards aren't up, the veils aren't up,

941
01:10:19,674 --> 01:10:22,193
and you really just get to have an authentic interaction with people.

942
01:10:22,193 --> 01:10:26,273
these bear market events I mean it's where all the magic happens and then the last thing I'll say

943
01:10:26,273 --> 01:10:32,354
to the broader point on narratives for us these bear market events is where the narratives for

944
01:10:32,354 --> 01:10:38,733
the bull market form and so we are very in tune with the programming that happens at these events

945
01:10:38,733 --> 01:10:45,273
more than any other event because we know that like what resonates here what is said here what

946
01:10:45,273 --> 01:10:50,494
is built during this time like that is the foundation by which Bitcoin is going to have

947
01:10:50,494 --> 01:10:52,434
its next leg up, its next growth cycle.

948
01:10:52,814 --> 01:10:55,293
And so we have to really be paying attention to them.

949
01:10:55,733 --> 01:10:58,373
And if you manage to pay attention to them yourself,

950
01:10:58,373 --> 01:11:00,854
like you can be that much further ahead of the curve

951
01:11:00,854 --> 01:11:04,074
and the upcoming bull market.

952
01:11:04,354 --> 01:11:06,134
So for all those reasons and more,

953
01:11:06,354 --> 01:11:07,594
if you haven't gotten your ticket,

954
01:11:07,854 --> 01:11:09,094
this is the event to go to.

955
01:11:09,894 --> 01:11:11,394
It's going to be a fantastic event.

956
01:11:11,894 --> 01:11:12,693
I'm going to be there.

957
01:11:12,733 --> 01:11:13,454
Y'all are going to be there.

958
01:11:13,454 --> 01:11:14,514
It's going to be a great time.

959
01:11:15,594 --> 01:11:16,534
You know, Vegas is fun.

960
01:11:17,074 --> 01:11:18,554
And we'd love to see you there.

961
01:11:20,494 --> 01:11:44,054
I love it. I'll be there. So and I'm first year corporate sponsor. We've got a booth. And so very excited. Thank you so much. Thank you for the support. We have the best companies in the world, frankly, are our sponsors. So, you know, it's seeing all these amazing companies come in every year. It just makes me that much more bullish on Bitcoin. These are the top people building the space.

962
01:11:44,054 --> 01:11:48,074
you know, Bitcoin is only as good as the people that use it.

963
01:11:48,474 --> 01:11:53,074
Right. And so being able to highlight and being able to work with

964
01:11:53,074 --> 01:11:57,894
the top entrepreneurs, the top people in the space,

965
01:11:57,894 --> 01:11:59,934
it just makes you that much more bullish on Bitcoin

966
01:11:59,934 --> 01:12:01,594
because you get to just see what people are building.

967
01:12:01,594 --> 01:12:07,034
So, yeah, I appreciate your support and Wyatt, appreciate your support too.

968
01:12:07,354 --> 01:12:10,174
And yeah, it's going to be a great year. It's going to be a great year.

969
01:12:10,174 --> 01:12:17,454
awesome anything else on your side i'm brandon no this is this is amazing i really enjoyed it

970
01:12:17,454 --> 01:12:22,354
appreciate your time likewise thank you guys for having me and uh thank you for letting me ramble

971
01:12:22,354 --> 01:12:27,074
for a little while uh if you just gotta go in and cut up some of the you know rambles and make

972
01:12:27,074 --> 01:12:33,233
them shorter feel free uh but yeah thanks guys all good all right we'll see you uh in about 30 days

973
01:12:33,233 --> 01:12:35,414
thanks good see you soon all right

974
01:12:40,174 --> 01:12:43,174
We appreciate you joining us.

975
01:12:43,174 --> 01:12:47,333
If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin and financial services, hit subscribe, leave

976
01:12:47,333 --> 01:12:51,414
a review, and most importantly, share this with someone in your network who's integrating

977
01:12:51,414 --> 01:12:52,974
Bitcoin into their practice.

978
01:12:52,974 --> 01:12:57,134
The more professionals we reach, the stronger the ecosystem becomes and our clients are

979
01:12:57,134 --> 01:12:58,134
better served.

980
01:12:58,134 --> 01:12:59,134
Stay sharp, stay sovereign.

981
01:12:59,134 --> 01:13:00,414
Keep leaning from the front.

982
01:13:10,174 --> 01:13:23,814
We'll see you next time.