1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,360
Folks in the market don't want six different Bitcoin companies, right?

2
00:00:03,380 --> 00:00:18,680
They want one where they can do everything they need, whether that's hold for the long term, have liquidity out of that cold storage, being able to buy or sell, which I'm pretty sure there's still very few places in the market that you can do that, buy and sell directly out of cold storage.

3
00:00:19,180 --> 00:00:22,780
And then we can touch further on kind of the unique account types, right?

4
00:00:22,780 --> 00:00:39,700
To my knowledge, this is still the only place where you can have an IRA, where you retain majority key control, Roth, traditional SEP, and then also those trust accounts to go further on the inheritance side and helping folks avoid probate.

5
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,220
And again, to the tradeoffs, making sure that that Bitcoin stays private and pass away.

6
00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:47,000
Bitcoin is a currency on the Internet.

7
00:00:47,300 --> 00:00:50,040
If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go.

8
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:51,280
It's going to outperform everything.

9
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,960
Bitcoin could eventually be worthless.

10
00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:54,840
Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.

11
00:00:55,380 --> 00:00:57,360
Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.

12
00:00:57,500 --> 00:00:59,000
Bitcoin hitting a new high.

13
00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:00,820
It really has reached escape velocity.

14
00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:01,960
There is no second best.

15
00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:03,180
Who cares about Bitcoin?

16
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,640
It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.

17
00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:06,680
Antisocial.

18
00:01:06,940 --> 00:01:08,540
Bitcoin is the real deal.

19
00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:09,120
Stupid.

20
00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:11,400
Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

21
00:01:11,620 --> 00:01:12,060
Immoral.

22
00:01:12,340 --> 00:01:13,740
It's going up forever, Laura.

23
00:01:14,260 --> 00:01:15,120
Fix the money.

24
00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:16,460
Fix the world.

25
00:01:16,460 --> 00:01:46,440
Thank you.

26
00:01:46,460 --> 00:01:56,540
Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets professional services.

27
00:01:56,940 --> 00:02:02,360
We explore how to build the financial services industry within the principles, values, and ethos of Bitcoin.

28
00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:06,140
Today, we're joined by Ben Brila, Director of Sales at Unchain.

29
00:02:06,580 --> 00:02:07,200
Let's get started.

30
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,620
Welcome back to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media.

31
00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:25,880
We're stoked. Great guest today. Veteran of the Bitcoin for Financial Services ecosystem, Ben Brela, Director of Sales at Unchained. How are you doing, Ben?

32
00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:33,120
Doing great, Wyatt. Thanks a lot for having me. I'm really excited about what you guys are doing. So grateful for the chance to be on and contribute.

33
00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:44,480
Of course. Now, it's always fun to bring friends on the pod. You and I both work out of the space. We've gotten to know each other well over the last couple of years. You guys are doing great work at Unchained.

34
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,100
And so we're going to have a fruitful conversation.

35
00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:52,860
You know, partner of Basilic, so I've gotten to know you guys well over the years, too.

36
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,600
You know, we're recording on St. Patrick's Day here.

37
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,200
I got my green on.

38
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,180
Doesn't look like you're supporting the cause.

39
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,940
Well, that's the thing about recording from home, Wyatt, is you can't see what I'm wearing underneath.

40
00:03:04,940 --> 00:03:07,860
So I am on the low.

41
00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:10,260
Well, we'll take it.

42
00:03:10,420 --> 00:03:11,060
We'll take it.

43
00:03:11,060 --> 00:03:19,000
Ben, why don't you give the audience a little bit about how you got into Bitcoin, how you got into Bitcoin professionally and what you're doing now?

44
00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:20,160
Sure.

45
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,540
So my Bitcoin story is a bit of a sly roundabout way into Bitcoin.

46
00:03:25,540 --> 00:03:35,900
I grew up in the D.C. area and I saw my mother, who leads a team of research nurses at NIH, working with late stage cancer patients.

47
00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:44,220
And, you know, these folks, I think more than anyone else in the world recognizes the scarcity of our time, the fact that time is truly our scarce asset.

48
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,220
And, you know, from there, what naturally comes to come is, you know, how are we going to utilize our time?

49
00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:56,740
Right. And so my personal goal became how can I improve quality of life for as many folks as I can?

50
00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:05,800
And so I thought about going to medical school and PA school, ended up going into the free market and studied engineering and ended up working in medical sales.

51
00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:26,620
And what I found from that was that while the splints I was selling were helping folks with a immediate injury or temporary solution, the problem was that a lot of these folks were living check to check and still had no understanding of money and how it has such an outsized effect on quality of life.

52
00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:49,780
And so, you know, shout out to Seb Bunny. I read his book, The Hidden Cost of Money, where he argues that everything is really downstream of money. And so from there, a bit of a self-taught investor coming out of college realized that Bitcoin is truly the best tool that I have in my toolbox to help improve quality of life for as many folks as I can.

53
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,980
The concept, the Japanese concept of Ikigai kind of helped me get there.

54
00:04:54,640 --> 00:05:10,400
But for all intents and purposes, that's why I'm here is because I believe that educating folks, individuals, institutions on Bitcoin is really the best way for me to help improve their quality of life and help them make the most of our time, our scarce asset.

55
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,280
No, it's beautiful.

56
00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:15,320
We love those personal connections.

57
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:20,100
I think it makes you coming to Bitcoin that much more real, that much more purposeful.

58
00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:22,680
So you're kind of going down this Bitcoin rabbit hole.

59
00:05:23,380 --> 00:05:27,160
What gave you the conviction to jump into it professionally?

60
00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:28,240
Yeah.

61
00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:36,840
One of those situations where you have to go really low to go high and to figure out, you know, your true mission.

62
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:43,080
And part of that was, unfortunately, through a severe fracture of my leg.

63
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:51,780
I was playing soccer and fractured my tibial plateau, had to go in for a surgery that I never wanted with a bunch of screws and hardware.

64
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,320
And the surgeon described it as a career remodeling injury.

65
00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:02,760
So what that gave me was a ton of time to think about how I'm using my time.

66
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:11,560
And it also gave me a lot more time to continue down the never ending rabbit hole to learn more and more about Bitcoin.

67
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,320
And I think over the years, my conviction grew.

68
00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:36,600
And then that was kind of the nail in the coffin where I realized, look, I have to get up every day and work on, you know, what is most important back to the Ikigai concept so that I am fulfilled and can also ensure that I'm helping others and doing something that I think is meaningful.

69
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:45,320
And after transitioning from medical sales to software sales, I think a lot of that meaning wasn't there, right?

70
00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:50,060
Because I don't know, we've all spent time in and around SaaS and it's a very cutthroat environment.

71
00:06:51,000 --> 00:07:03,140
Whereas when I wake up and get to help folks secure Bitcoin for the long haul and potentially affect their bloodline and generations to come, that I know is worthwhile.

72
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,380
This episode is brought to you by Satoshi Pacioli, a full-service accounting and tax firm built for the Bitcoin economy.

73
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:18,400
If you run a Bitcoin business, mine Bitcoin, or invest in it, you need advisors who actually understand how this industry works.

74
00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:25,880
Satoshi Pacioli handles bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for Bitcoin-focused companies and individuals.

75
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,060
They speak the language of Bitcoiners and help you stay compliant while building for the long term.

76
00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:34,520
To learn more or book a consultation, visit satoshipacioli.com.

77
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:51,180
Yeah, very cool. Appreciate the background. That's great for you to share. So let's get into what you do at Unchained, what Unchained is, and we'll kind of jump off from there.

78
00:07:51,900 --> 00:08:02,160
Sure thing. So Unchained provides a full suite of financial services for Bitcoiners. So we've been around for close to a decade at this point.

79
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:08,760
um and you guys started in 2016 we did we did yeah so we're coming to your anniversary this year

80
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,920
you know this year exactly kidding and i you know i feel like in the bitcoin space those are like

81
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:20,880
dog years or something right like it feels like yeah for real um and so the core of unchained

82
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:27,720
is collaborative custody so um i know you know a lot of your folks are experienced bitcoiners but

83
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,040
you know for those that don't know i think maybe let's level set a little bit right so they're 21

84
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:38,140
million Bitcoin, all of them live on addresses. And each of those addresses is secured by either

85
00:08:38,140 --> 00:08:44,860
a single or multiple private keys. Now, most individuals start buying Bitcoin on an exchange,

86
00:08:44,860 --> 00:08:51,060
and that's fine, right? There's little friction. The issue there is that as you accumulate more

87
00:08:51,060 --> 00:08:55,780
Bitcoin, you understand who's holding the private keys. And when you're holding Bitcoin on an

88
00:08:55,780 --> 00:09:01,140
exchange or with a custodian, they are typically holding the private key or private keys.

89
00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:10,180
And so over time, as you start to secure more and more Bitcoin, that tends to become an unacceptable level of risk.

90
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:18,800
And Bitcoiners, as they understand the ethos of not your keys, not your coins, tend to want to secure those keys on their own.

91
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:26,620
And so they might go to a single signature setup where they have a device and a backup seed phrase under the bed or in the safe.

92
00:09:26,620 --> 00:09:31,900
But the issue there is that if that C phrase is compromised, your Bitcoin is as good as gone.

93
00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:44,860
And so for high net worth individuals and institutions who are stacking very material amounts of Bitcoin, that type of risk doesn't make sense and is unacceptable.

94
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:51,160
So folks start to consider collaborative custody built on multi-signature custody.

95
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,580
So imagine instead of a single key securing your Bitcoin, there are three.

96
00:09:55,580 --> 00:10:17,780
And with our clients, they're typically holding the majority. So they're holding, let's say, two keys and Unchain holds the third. What this provides for our clients is really the best of both worlds because they know that they retain key control. They're the only party in the world that can unilaterally move their Bitcoin. But at the same time, they now have some room for error.

97
00:10:17,780 --> 00:10:24,920
So if something happens to one of those keys, if a house burns down, something that's out of your control, it's not the end of the world.

98
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:30,760
You can come back to Unchained. We can help you re-secure that third key and continue to secure your Bitcoin.

99
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:47,340
And what we find is that as folks grow their Bitcoin conviction and the amount of Bitcoin they hold in turn, they want to work with a group that they can trust, but they don't have to.

100
00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:55,200
And that's the beauty of this model is that you kind of have your cake and eat it too in terms of the client retaining key control.

101
00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:07,940
But Unchained being here in the event that something happens to one of those keys or to take it a step further, and I'm sure we'll get into this, this type of model lends itself really well to things like inheritance.

102
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,780
And I know a lot of Bitcoiners see Bitcoin as a generational asset.

103
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:20,460
So, you know, it doesn't make sense to spend all this time and energy stacking if you're not going to be sure that it's going to officially pass on to your heirs.

104
00:11:22,420 --> 00:11:26,640
A hundred percent. And that's a great level setting point.

105
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,860
And so we have Unchained. I love working with you guys.

106
00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:35,060
I refer to you guys as like the premier Bitcoin financial services company in the country.

107
00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:41,700
I mean it with every word. And so we have this custody solution to through multi-sig core.

108
00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:47,460
your guys' core business. And then as you guys have grown, have added your additional financial

109
00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:53,980
services on top of that, you know, we got, we got loans, we got IRAs, we got, you know, OTC desk,

110
00:11:54,200 --> 00:12:01,140
inheritance protocol. And for my seat, it's just been so easy to onboard to you guys. My clients

111
00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:06,740
have like a one-stop shop. You know, I think it's fairly easy for, you know, traditional RIAs to

112
00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:12,280
think of, you know, Unchained as kind of like their, their pseudo like Bitcoin custodian.

113
00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,460
Obviously you guys don't take full custody of people's coins. You're, you're a partner in that,

114
00:12:16,540 --> 00:12:22,420
but your setup is so flexible. I love like this two or three base because it just provides us so

115
00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:30,300
many different opportunities. And, you know, one thing we really focus on with our clientele,

116
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,140
you know, especially with, you know, Bitcoin still be kind of at store value phase, you know,

117
00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:38,120
moving to medium of exchange here, you know, quickly is making sure, you know, we have a

118
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:44,760
rock solid foundation for our custody solution. And there is no silver bullet when it comes to

119
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,900
Bitcoin self custody. It's a series of trade-offs and you kind of touched on some of those. And you

120
00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:54,100
guys have made it tremendously easy for a client to hold two keys in the quorum. You know, your

121
00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:59,020
connections feature is awesome. That's why I utilize my client. If I'm holding, you know,

122
00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:03,760
key in the form are able to geographically distribute three keys now. So, you know,

123
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,340
if they lose their key and myself and Unchank and how, you know, set up a new wallet,

124
00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:13,800
obviously, you know, inheritance planning as well. Why don't you kind of get in the nuts of bolts

125
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:18,560
of how connections work? Because I really feel like that is like the most pivotal

126
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:27,360
tool for advisors or folks in my seat. And I really do. My kind of my prediction for the future

127
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:34,460
is it's going to be much more commonplace for Bitcoin holders to have their financial advisor,

128
00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:38,300
to have their CPA, to have their state planning attorney hold a key for them.

129
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,740
It's really not too intimidating from the service provider point of view

130
00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:44,280
because you guys made it super easy on your platform.

131
00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:46,180
So walk us through how that actually works.

132
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:47,760
Absolutely.

133
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,800
This goes to the roots of Unchained,

134
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:56,840
which is thinking about e-control as establishing a network of keys.

135
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:09,580
And because we've created the Unchained platform built natively into the Bitcoin network, it allows for these type of connections.

136
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:15,420
So I think, you know, in a story form, this might make a little more sense to folks, right?

137
00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:25,380
So imagine, you know, you are the Bitcoiner in your family, you get set up with Unchained, and then you have some relatives who, you know, would benefit from this type of service.

138
00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:28,620
but maybe they're not ready to hold multiple keys, right?

139
00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:31,520
Maybe you kind of want to help them dip their toes into the water

140
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,820
and become comfortable before, you know, assuming

141
00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:48,272
the majority key control or maybe they never have to do that And so you can imagine you have your unchained account you can send a connection request to someone else to help them create an

142
00:14:48,272 --> 00:14:54,352
account. And then their account is actually connected to yours on the backend through our

143
00:14:54,352 --> 00:15:01,992
platform. And so this allows for a few things, right? At the core, it could be that they are

144
00:15:01,992 --> 00:15:10,112
able to create a multi-signature account with Unchained where they only have to deal with

145
00:15:10,112 --> 00:15:15,072
controlling one device. So now you have the benefits of multi-sig, but they don't have the

146
00:15:15,072 --> 00:15:19,652
complexity there. So that's, I think, the first use case where, you know, let's say you have an

147
00:15:19,652 --> 00:15:26,492
older relative and you want them to have this setup available to them. You create that connections,

148
00:15:26,492 --> 00:15:33,352
they upload one key, then you're able to then build a vault constructed of their key,

149
00:15:33,692 --> 00:15:37,192
one key that you already have on the platform, and then the unchained key.

150
00:15:37,972 --> 00:15:44,372
And so now they have the benefit of this two out of three multi-sig quorum.

151
00:15:45,152 --> 00:15:49,332
And what it does is it lends itself very well to things like inheritance.

152
00:15:49,332 --> 00:15:52,552
So if you're already connected to that account on our platform,

153
00:15:52,712 --> 00:15:56,172
it's going to make the inheritance even more seamless.

154
00:15:56,492 --> 00:16:06,332
Um, whereas typically, you know, you're going to set up that inheritance protocol and keep that with your, um, estate planning, uh, attorney or your, or your trustee.

155
00:16:06,912 --> 00:16:11,112
Um, but the point is we want to meet folks where they are, right?

156
00:16:11,112 --> 00:16:20,352
And we understand that, you know, there may be folks in your family who never go down the rabbit hole as far as you, and they don't want to understand multi-stignature custody and that's okay, right?

157
00:16:20,352 --> 00:16:21,392
They can still benefit.

158
00:16:21,392 --> 00:16:28,092
it, they don't need to be in a situation where they are vulnerable to single points of failure.

159
00:16:28,092 --> 00:16:32,792
We've seen the rise in scammers and fraudulent folks trying to steal Bitcoin.

160
00:16:33,612 --> 00:16:40,172
And I would say that utilizing these checks and balances goes a long way for those who

161
00:16:40,172 --> 00:16:43,872
are not as technically Bitcoin inclined.

162
00:16:45,412 --> 00:16:46,792
Well, it really does.

163
00:16:46,792 --> 00:16:52,592
And I give you guys a huge tip of the cap for your game theory when designing the platform.

164
00:16:53,152 --> 00:16:55,272
I think it gives people a lot of confidence and trust.

165
00:16:55,872 --> 00:17:02,932
You know, myself, you know, using connections, clients can determine how much information they want to share with me.

166
00:17:03,012 --> 00:17:04,592
So they're comfortable with that.

167
00:17:04,952 --> 00:17:09,012
You know, I can sign a transaction after the client initiates it.

168
00:17:09,132 --> 00:17:11,452
You know, I can't initiate a transaction myself.

169
00:17:12,352 --> 00:17:18,092
You know, the account owner has to be the one to actually broadcast the transaction to the network.

170
00:17:18,452 --> 00:17:24,772
And so there's a lot of safeguards that you guys have intentionally built in, which I think is really great.

171
00:17:25,392 --> 00:17:29,032
And especially when you're working with a more Bitcoin-focused, you know, individual,

172
00:17:29,372 --> 00:17:32,872
they get extremely scrupled about their custody solution, as they should.

173
00:17:32,872 --> 00:17:36,852
And they ask a lot of questions like, how do I not get rugged in this scenario?

174
00:17:36,852 --> 00:17:44,592
And it's, you know, physically impossible with the way you guys have set things up, which, you know, provides myself with a lot of comfort, provides my clients with a lot of comfort.

175
00:17:44,812 --> 00:17:52,712
And so it just works, which is, you know, an issue we find a lot in Bitcoin land is like, does this does this actually work?

176
00:17:52,752 --> 00:17:54,572
And so that's fantastic.

177
00:17:54,832 --> 00:17:56,612
And, you know, it helps a lot, too.

178
00:17:57,272 --> 00:18:00,852
I was honestly kind of nervous when I was first getting started.

179
00:18:01,072 --> 00:18:04,352
It's like, oh, man, my compliance consultant is not going to like this.

180
00:18:04,352 --> 00:18:12,952
And, you know, I walked into the platform, my role in holding one of the three keys in Quorum is like, no, this is fine.

181
00:18:13,012 --> 00:18:16,152
Like you don't have custody. You can't unilaterally move your client's Bitcoin.

182
00:18:16,352 --> 00:18:19,212
It's a bunch of other things I have to take into account.

183
00:18:19,332 --> 00:18:28,872
If I have custody of clients' assets and you guys just make it very easy to help provide folks with some custody solutions.

184
00:18:28,872 --> 00:18:42,692
A hundred percent. And I think something that you said stuck out there in terms of, you know, how how early we really are, because a lot of individuals come to Bitcoin on their own.

185
00:18:43,292 --> 00:18:57,452
But others just, you know, hear it through the grapevine. And so when we serve both both individuals and institutions, and I was talking to a business leader the other day who just thought that, you know, holding Bitcoin on behalf of an enterprise was a nonstarter.

186
00:18:57,452 --> 00:19:02,032
because, you know, one person, he thought one person had to hold the keys.

187
00:19:02,352 --> 00:19:07,452
And so when we had a, you know, basic conversation around the ability for multiple keys,

188
00:19:07,592 --> 00:19:10,412
you know, you could immediately see the light bulb go on in his head

189
00:19:10,412 --> 00:19:14,352
and the ability to, you know, set up a business account with us

190
00:19:14,352 --> 00:19:18,652
and then create perhaps a flexible forum where it's maybe two out of three

191
00:19:18,652 --> 00:19:19,812
or it's three out of five.

192
00:19:19,952 --> 00:19:24,812
Or, you know, maybe it's two out of three with some additional approver levels, right?

193
00:19:24,812 --> 00:19:33,872
Maybe you have a board of five folks and only two are prepared or able to hold keys, but you'd like approval from the other three when a transaction is broadcast.

194
00:19:34,452 --> 00:19:35,532
We have that flexibility.

195
00:19:36,192 --> 00:19:40,692
And I think simplicity is also key to Unchain at its core.

196
00:19:42,072 --> 00:19:45,632
Folks in the market don't want six different Bitcoin companies, right?

197
00:19:45,632 --> 00:20:00,932
They want one where they can do everything they need, whether that's hold for the long term, have liquidity out of that cold storage, being able to buy or sell, which I'm pretty sure there's still very few places on the market that you can do that, buy and sell directly out of cold storage.

198
00:20:01,592 --> 00:20:05,052
And then we can touch further on kind of the unique account types, right?

199
00:20:05,052 --> 00:20:21,972
To my knowledge, this is still the only place where you can have an IRA, where you retain majority key control, you know, Roth, traditional SEP, and then also those trust accounts to go further on the inheritance side and helping folks avoid probate.

200
00:20:22,372 --> 00:20:26,512
And again, to the tradeoffs, right, making sure that that Bitcoin stays private when you pass away.

201
00:20:26,512 --> 00:20:34,852
totally it maybe was one of the biggest decision-making criteria when i was trying to figure

202
00:20:34,852 --> 00:20:39,972
out who like my bitcoin partner was going to be in this practice and i mean yeah you obviously want

203
00:20:39,972 --> 00:20:45,812
to reduce as much friction as possible for onboarding clients you know you want a seamless

204
00:20:45,812 --> 00:20:49,472
user interface like a one-stop shop and so just the fact that you guys are able to accommodate

205
00:20:49,472 --> 00:20:52,632
all those different account types that's obviously what a you know traditional

206
00:20:52,632 --> 00:20:56,672
your brokerage service or custodian is going to offer. So, you know, we don't have to go

207
00:20:56,672 --> 00:21:00,672
here for IRA. We don't have to go there for our trust. We don't have to go, you know,

208
00:21:00,712 --> 00:21:05,812
XYZ for our loan. You know, it's all built in natively in the platform. And in that vein,

209
00:21:07,952 --> 00:21:12,812
what have you guys seen, you know, actual boots on the ground for, you know, future requests,

210
00:21:12,852 --> 00:21:17,552
whether that be from, you know, RIAs like myself, accountants, estate plan attorneys,

211
00:21:17,632 --> 00:21:21,952
but on the professional side. And then also from, you know, the end client user perspective,

212
00:21:21,952 --> 00:21:27,052
of how do you envision this platform growing and if you guys have any plans to add on the additional

213
00:21:27,052 --> 00:21:33,872
features and services? Yeah, I think that's a great question. We're always trying to stay on

214
00:21:33,872 --> 00:21:43,692
top of what folks in the market are looking for. And I would say it's a balancing act between,

215
00:21:44,152 --> 00:21:47,492
and I think this is a testament to why we've been around for close to a decade, between

216
00:21:47,492 --> 00:21:53,472
staying in your lane, right, knowing what you do really well and leaning into those aspects,

217
00:21:53,752 --> 00:21:58,732
which, you know, currently right now with us is custody, trading, and then commercial lending,

218
00:21:59,312 --> 00:22:06,212
and making sure that you're the best in the business at those things, while also

219
00:22:06,212 --> 00:22:13,132
continuing to grow and listening to our clients and hearing, you know, what they have to say. And so

220
00:22:13,132 --> 00:22:24,752
So I would say, you know, one limitation you could argue of our platform right now is that we have a $2,000 minimum trade size.

221
00:22:25,352 --> 00:22:31,492
That's because these Bitcoin buys are being deposited directly into cold storage.

222
00:22:31,492 --> 00:22:37,172
So we're, you know, we're cognizant of UTXO sizing on that front.

223
00:22:37,172 --> 00:22:59,892
But in terms of, you know, perhaps ease of use or ability for you to kind of even consolidate all your Bitcoin needs even further, you know, I would love to see something like a like a DCA function, right, to support smaller buys and perhaps, you know, a custodial type account where, you know, you can accumulate small amounts of Bitcoin.

224
00:22:59,892 --> 00:23:04,072
And then when it's a certain UTXO size that could migrate into cold storage.

225
00:23:04,072 --> 00:23:26,992
Um, but I think another component that we've heard loud and clear from our clients is, is how important the human aspect is, right? You can't assemble a team like this overnight. That's, you know, part of the reason why it's, it's taken close to a decade. Um, I, I encourage everybody to go check out our blog and our knowledge base because we have some of the, the, the top thought leaders in the space.

226
00:23:26,992 --> 00:23:33,992
And so whenever there's a tricky Bitcoin topic that I'm trying to dig deeper on, that's typically where I'll go.

227
00:23:35,012 --> 00:23:43,732
But on the human note, I would say knowing that you can actually meet the Unchained team in person is huge.

228
00:23:43,832 --> 00:23:46,252
So we do as much as we can in terms of boots on the ground.

229
00:23:46,852 --> 00:23:50,632
You know, you and I spend a lot of time and, you know, labor of love here at the space in Denver.

230
00:23:51,212 --> 00:23:54,032
I run the local Boulder Bitcoin meetup.

231
00:23:54,032 --> 00:24:11,132
So, you know, shout out to all my folks here in Colorado. We're always growing and looking to improve there. And I would say that through our signature service, which is more of our private client experience, those folks are getting invited to private client events around the country.

232
00:24:11,132 --> 00:24:26,352
And it goes a long way when you're that, you know, weird Bitcoin guy in your friends or family circle that, you know, has hopefully not quite been totally ostracized yet, that you can actually go out and, you know, have a nice dinner with other folks who are on the same page as you.

233
00:24:26,532 --> 00:24:32,832
Or, you know, I know we're working on an event down in Nashville where they're going to go out and, you know, shoot some guns.

234
00:24:33,012 --> 00:24:38,432
And we have a wine tasting coming up here at the space with Ben Justman.

235
00:24:38,572 --> 00:24:39,832
Shout out Peony Lane.

236
00:24:39,832 --> 00:24:55,392
So I think that emphasis as well. Obviously, we have the best technical infrastructure in Bitcoin, but I think the team that backs it up and being able to interact with that team is huge for a lot of our folks.

237
00:24:55,392 --> 00:25:02,112
it's actually massive um i'm happy you brought that up because yeah something you know you and

238
00:25:02,112 --> 00:25:06,592
i have discussed you know offline obviously in our own you know ventures like the community

239
00:25:06,592 --> 00:25:10,272
aspect of bitcoin is super important i think it's one of the best investments you can make

240
00:25:10,272 --> 00:25:14,352
it's just getting no other bitcoiners learning from other bitcoiners in real life obviously

241
00:25:14,352 --> 00:25:19,552
the internet's great but nothing needs those those in-person interactions unchained i can attest

242
00:25:19,552 --> 00:25:24,672
those great parties um so it's always it's always a good time getting together with the unchained

243
00:25:24,672 --> 00:25:31,492
folks. And even in my personal experience, I've reached out to you. I've reached out to Rocky.

244
00:25:32,632 --> 00:25:38,252
I am having this issue. What do you think about this? I know you guys, I know I'm talking to a

245
00:25:38,252 --> 00:25:44,832
human on the other end. If you guys have been sure, like directed me to support, I had this

246
00:25:44,832 --> 00:25:50,452
one issue and like four support guys jumped on to try to help me solve it with my client. It was

247
00:25:50,452 --> 00:25:55,932
just really reassuring to know, you know, we were getting good advice. There were real humans

248
00:25:55,932 --> 00:26:02,672
based in, you know, North America that were ready, willing, and able to help us. Gave my client a

249
00:26:02,672 --> 00:26:08,952
huge peace of mind. And so I really do give you guys props for not skimping on that. I think it's,

250
00:26:09,012 --> 00:26:13,432
you know, fairly easy once you get to a big scalable business like Unchained to, you know,

251
00:26:13,432 --> 00:26:18,732
kind of cut corners and you haven't. Like the support is tremendous. And especially from,

252
00:26:18,732 --> 00:26:24,052
you know professional services too it's like i'm used to being able to my track five providers

253
00:26:24,052 --> 00:26:29,612
you know call somebody and talk to people on the phone i feel like bitcoin companies a lot of times

254
00:26:29,612 --> 00:26:34,692
they won't lean into like the tech angle here's your chat bot and it's like no i don't want to

255
00:26:34,692 --> 00:26:39,912
talk to the ai i want to talk to a real guy right are you guys like it's like are you even in the us

256
00:26:39,912 --> 00:26:46,272
like where do you guys where are like do you have a location so i always joke too i'm trying to catch

257
00:26:46,272 --> 00:26:51,512
all my unchained Pokemon. I'm, I'm getting working through them. You know, I've met quite a few guys,

258
00:26:51,572 --> 00:27:00,792
you guys are growing fast. It's making it harder on me. But, um, you, another thing, you, I want to

259
00:27:00,792 --> 00:27:07,652
discuss with you, you know, your boots on the ground guy talking to real Bitcoiners every day.

260
00:27:08,172 --> 00:27:12,672
And you and I have talked about it too. It's like this instant, interesting, you know,

261
00:27:12,672 --> 00:27:17,712
conundrum. I really like talking about price, but we definitely notice that our pipeline fills up

262
00:27:17,712 --> 00:27:24,752
when price goes up. You got to do a little bit more legwork to get leads and talk to folks when

263
00:27:24,752 --> 00:27:30,172
price goes down. So I'm just really curious, what are your just general perspective strategies,

264
00:27:30,832 --> 00:27:37,292
you know, folks sitting in a professional services role, how you're talking to clients

265
00:27:37,292 --> 00:27:42,592
about Bitcoin and good and bad markets, what the feedback is like, you know, how you're converting

266
00:27:42,592 --> 00:27:48,192
them and still trying to emphasize like the importance of your services, even when it may

267
00:27:48,192 --> 00:27:55,812
not seem obvious to them with the price action of the day? Yeah. So I think there's a few different

268
00:27:55,812 --> 00:28:01,472
ways we do that. I think part of it is that, you know, we always stick with the ethos that bear

269
00:28:01,472 --> 00:28:05,832
markets are for building, right? And so what you're going to see, yeah, what you see more out of

270
00:28:05,832 --> 00:28:11,792
Unchained in these times is more content, right? So we've been doing more work to put out more

271
00:28:11,792 --> 00:28:17,452
research, we just put out a piece on quantum as that seems like kind of the, the FUD du jour

272
00:28:17,452 --> 00:28:29,732
lately. Um, and it's just, I paused a little bit because, you know, just to quickly flip back to

273
00:28:29,732 --> 00:28:35,192
the community side, right. We're, we're around the guys who are the lead developers at the space

274
00:28:35,192 --> 00:28:40,172
for these quantum resistant proposals. So when you're, when you're seeing that on a day-to-day

275
00:28:40,172 --> 00:28:45,732
basis, it helps you deal with that FUD. And you're also able to speak to it truthfully, right? It's

276
00:28:45,732 --> 00:28:50,292
not like, hey, I just heard this thing X and Y. It's like, hey, I actually got to talk to Hunter

277
00:28:50,292 --> 00:28:57,992
and Jeff and these guys who are actually authoring the BIPs. So you get to see, one, the level of

278
00:28:57,992 --> 00:29:05,672
urgency in terms of that particular FUD. And then just the beautiful anti-fragility of the Bitcoin

279
00:29:05,672 --> 00:29:09,412
network in terms of, hey, there's this attack. We're going to reinforce ourselves and make

280
00:29:09,412 --> 00:29:30,745
ourselves stronger so that we can defend against it I would also say that you know from a just from a sales perspective it almost impossible to do like cold Bitcoin outbound right Because you just come off like a scammer So a lot of times it it those warm relationships

281
00:29:31,045 --> 00:29:33,985
It's it's working with folks who are already using the product.

282
00:29:33,985 --> 00:29:41,485
And hey, you know, how can we is there anybody else in your network who we can help, you know, who might benefit from this because it's been so helpful to you.

283
00:29:41,485 --> 00:29:48,485
and, you know, always beating the drum on education, right?

284
00:29:48,505 --> 00:29:55,505
So how many Bitcoin lending companies have we seen go down in the last decade, right?

285
00:29:55,505 --> 00:29:56,784
It's almost countless at this point.

286
00:29:56,864 --> 00:30:01,485
I'm pretty sure BlockFill's filed for bankruptcy in the last couple of weeks.

287
00:30:02,165 --> 00:30:05,705
And so I would implore, without providing any sort of financial advice,

288
00:30:05,705 --> 00:30:14,445
said, for anyone who's looking at commercial Bitcoin-backed loans, to do your extreme due

289
00:30:14,445 --> 00:30:19,784
diligence on your relationship to your collateral. Because that's what we pride ourselves on here at

290
00:30:19,784 --> 00:30:24,805
Unchained, is that you are closer to your collateral than you are anywhere else, because

291
00:30:24,805 --> 00:30:33,764
it's held in a multi-signature vault where instead of you holding two keys, you hold one. So Unchained

292
00:30:33,764 --> 00:30:40,024
holds a second and then a third party arbiter holds a third, meaning that all three parties

293
00:30:40,024 --> 00:30:45,884
have constant visibility into the Bitcoin on chain, ensuring that it's not being rehypothecated

294
00:30:45,884 --> 00:30:51,024
at all or sent to any sort of third party during the life of the loan, but also ensuring

295
00:30:51,024 --> 00:30:56,524
that none of the three parties has unilateral ability to access that collateral during the

296
00:30:56,524 --> 00:30:57,185
life of that loan.

297
00:30:57,185 --> 00:31:10,124
So I think during these lulls in price action, it's a time to continue to hone and refine your knowledge so that you're ready to take opportunity going forward.

298
00:31:10,124 --> 00:31:18,445
And then, you know, from a personal experience, when folks are, you know, hey, Ben, I thought, you know, Bitcoin, I thought Bitcoin wasn't going to be as volatile anymore, et cetera, et cetera.

299
00:31:18,445 --> 00:31:27,604
So, you know, I hear you. But at the same time, what I can tell you from experience is, one, the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago.

300
00:31:27,685 --> 00:31:29,825
If you can't do that, you should plant that thing today.

301
00:31:30,565 --> 00:31:37,844
And two, you know, most of us Bitcoiners have way more Bitcoin now than we ever would have without those significant drawdowns in the past.

302
00:31:37,844 --> 00:31:43,685
So see it as an opportunity back to basics, produce more than you consume.

303
00:31:44,225 --> 00:31:48,624
And then you have the ability to accumulate Bitcoin with the excess.

304
00:31:49,905 --> 00:31:52,905
Totally. I think that's a that's a great answer.

305
00:31:53,245 --> 00:32:00,344
And it's also a great example of that core two, three multisig, you know, at work in the loan product.

306
00:32:00,565 --> 00:32:04,445
I have a lot of interest from clients in Bitcoin collateralized loans.

307
00:32:04,445 --> 00:32:19,245
I think it's like a great tool, but, you know, even some of the work I'm doing with my private credit fund evaluating like these loan servicers and originators, it honestly gives me so much more respect and thankfulness for Unchained because things can get a little dicey behind the scenes.

308
00:32:19,245 --> 00:32:20,485
Are you pooling collateral?

309
00:32:21,205 --> 00:32:24,344
Is that collateral pledge to a different party?

310
00:32:24,665 --> 00:32:37,965
Or is like, if everything is core, two, three, multi-state, like the exact address, your Bitcoin collateral is held, exactly under what circumstances it can move or not.

311
00:32:38,764 --> 00:32:43,065
And so it's just crucially IRA product functions similarly.

312
00:32:43,844 --> 00:32:47,284
And it is really important.

313
00:32:49,245 --> 00:32:56,264
Your wealth deserves intention. Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm built

314
00:32:56,264 --> 00:33:00,585
to help our clients find balance between money and meaning. We integrate sound money strategies

315
00:33:00,585 --> 00:33:04,905
across four distinct personalized services, financial planning, individual wealth management,

316
00:33:05,305 --> 00:33:10,624
retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin financial services. Your prosperity, your purpose,

317
00:33:10,965 --> 00:33:16,205
intentionally guided at Basilic Financial. Visit our website at basilic.io to schedule free

318
00:33:16,205 --> 00:33:29,405
consultation. Absolutely. Um, not sure if, um, you know, this was on your list of stuff to cover,

319
00:33:29,405 --> 00:33:34,445
but, you know, happy to go further into the IRA if, uh, if that's relevant. Yeah, let's do it.

320
00:33:35,024 --> 00:33:39,565
Awesome. So that is one of my favorite products at Unchain. So I have to give it some airtime.

321
00:33:40,185 --> 00:33:44,545
Oh yeah. And I mean, you know, when you sit down, I'm sure when you sit down with your clients,

322
00:33:44,545 --> 00:33:55,965
Like oftentimes what we see is kind of like the low hanging fruit, right, is like the old 401k or the old IRA that, you know, they may or may not have even checked out in years.

323
00:33:55,965 --> 00:34:00,085
And who knows if it's invested, what it's invested in, you know, how it's performing.

324
00:34:00,085 --> 00:34:15,044
So that was, you know, the immediate wake up call to me a few years ago when I learned that this was even an option was, hey, you know, been stacking up a 401k through medical sales and, you know, sure enough, can't buy Bitcoin in there.

325
00:34:15,945 --> 00:34:29,064
So the ability to, you know, seamlessly create an IRA to IRA transfer or a 401k to IRA rollover through our platform is really efficient.

326
00:34:29,064 --> 00:34:35,624
And I know in the past, you know, those types of transfers have typically taken like weeks, but we have a really smooth integration in there.

327
00:34:35,885 --> 00:34:44,064
And, you know, we often see the funds come over in one to three or four days now, depending on the current custodian.

328
00:34:45,005 --> 00:34:55,104
But, you know, for anyone out there listening, if you're thinking you kind of racking your brain on ways to get more Bitcoin exposure, this is one way that maybe a lot of folks haven't considered.

329
00:34:55,104 --> 00:35:09,544
And so a couple of unique advantages there would be one, because it's true spot Bitcoin and you retain key control in retirement, you can actually take distribution in kind.

330
00:35:09,845 --> 00:35:15,225
So you don't necessarily need to sell that Bitcoin to dollars when you're when you're taking a distribution.

331
00:35:15,225 --> 00:35:19,305
So I think that's one of the critical advantages.

332
00:35:19,705 --> 00:35:25,185
And then also, obviously, pairing that with the liquidity portion makes it simple.

333
00:35:26,405 --> 00:35:27,044
Totally.

334
00:35:27,285 --> 00:35:39,945
And one of the things, I mean, you see, even like Bitcoinira.com, it's like a centrally held crypto company.

335
00:35:39,945 --> 00:35:42,024
It's like pretty unflattering.

336
00:35:42,024 --> 00:35:46,265
There's a lot of unflattering crypto IRA products out there.

337
00:35:46,584 --> 00:35:50,945
I think the key innovation at Unchained is like this tri-party agreement.

338
00:35:51,225 --> 00:35:55,185
So all tax-qualified accounts in the U.S. need a qualified custodian, right?

339
00:35:55,225 --> 00:35:59,665
It's like, well, when Bitcoin or alarm bells go off, it's like, I don't want somebody else casting my Bitcoin.

340
00:36:00,485 --> 00:36:06,745
You guys work with Fortis Bank, which is fun enough, out of Denver, and they agree to sign the keys back over to you,

341
00:36:06,845 --> 00:36:10,925
all seamlessly done in the background of Unchained platform.

342
00:36:10,925 --> 00:36:15,425
And so you essentially have this unchained vault and this IRS paper wrapper.

343
00:36:15,885 --> 00:36:19,624
That's your IRA, and you still get to control your keys.

344
00:36:19,805 --> 00:36:27,485
And so it really is, I think, extremely clever and very unique product offering in the market.

345
00:36:28,604 --> 00:36:35,225
On product offerings, and then I kind of want to switch to your guys' outreach initiatives,

346
00:36:35,445 --> 00:36:38,345
but let's walk through the inheritance planning protocol.

347
00:36:38,345 --> 00:36:54,265
This is, you know, I would say very hot topic when we're talking custody solutions with clients is, yeah, I mean, you may have like this sick treasure map and, you know, your seed phrase is buried in, you know, Africa and then got assigned advice in the Antarctic circle.

348
00:36:54,865 --> 00:36:59,265
You know, and it's like, nobody's getting my Bitcoin, especially maybe your heirs.

349
00:36:59,265 --> 00:37:09,225
And so I think you guys, again, have thought out a really good protocol that nearly anybody can implement.

350
00:37:09,644 --> 00:37:13,865
Walk us through the details of that and how you arrived on this specific procedure.

351
00:37:15,365 --> 00:37:15,564
Yeah.

352
00:37:15,745 --> 00:37:19,505
So the core of this, like everything we do, is no single points of failure.

353
00:37:19,805 --> 00:37:25,064
And so as you illustrated, we hear about these exotic multisignatures.

354
00:37:25,064 --> 00:37:30,245
And like you said, no one's going to access the Bitcoin, right?

355
00:37:30,485 --> 00:37:38,144
Arguably not even your heirs, because unfortunately, oftentimes the Bitcoiner is the single point of failure.

356
00:37:38,905 --> 00:37:41,845
And so, yes, I hear you, hardcore Bitcoiner.

357
00:37:42,245 --> 00:37:45,124
You don't want anybody in the world to know how much Bitcoin you have.

358
00:37:45,524 --> 00:37:46,544
And I get that.

359
00:37:46,905 --> 00:37:52,144
And as Wyatt noted, you know, every single setup has tradeoffs.

360
00:37:52,144 --> 00:38:20,325
And so what we find is the majority of our clients see that the small tradeoff in terms of privacy or knowledge of account on the Unchained side is well worth the massive benefits of the peace of mind and clarity that come with knowing you have a robust inheritance setup that you getting hit by a bus does not derail.

361
00:38:20,325 --> 00:38:24,325
And so there's really two ways to set that up with us.

362
00:38:24,325 --> 00:38:30,524
So you can either set it up on your own in a DIY fashion,

363
00:38:30,524 --> 00:38:37,185
or the majority of our clients who are seeing Bitcoin as a generational asset

364
00:38:37,185 --> 00:38:41,725
and perhaps have a lot more moving parts might use our signature service for one year,

365
00:38:41,825 --> 00:38:45,144
which is going to be that private client white glove experience

366
00:38:45,144 --> 00:38:47,604
where you're actually going to be working directly with the team

367
00:38:47,604 --> 00:38:57,785
and have a dedicated account manager to first, you know, look at your Bitcoin picture in a holistic manner, right?

368
00:38:57,785 --> 00:39:04,064
Get you set up operationally and then look at the inheritance component.

369
00:39:04,385 --> 00:39:09,064
And so if you have a trust, we can help you title Bitcoin to that trust.

370
00:39:10,285 --> 00:39:15,905
You know, if you have a will, you can also look at it on an intent with appropriating it into the will.

371
00:39:15,905 --> 00:39:29,745
But the beauty of this is basically it boils down to a packet of information that's inclusive of a copy of one of your feed phrases, as well as two executor letters that explain the process.

372
00:39:30,425 --> 00:39:36,245
That gets stored in a tamper evident bag and is given to your trustee or your heir.

373
00:39:36,725 --> 00:39:41,785
And so now, you know, heir or trustee doesn't have to be a Bitcoin wizard or guru.

374
00:39:41,785 --> 00:39:45,765
they have to understand that if so-and-so passes away,

375
00:39:46,185 --> 00:39:48,785
I'm going to approach and work with Unchain,

376
00:39:49,064 --> 00:39:50,985
proving that they're no longer around,

377
00:39:51,665 --> 00:39:54,345
and then use the combination of this protocol

378
00:39:54,345 --> 00:39:57,265
with the third key that Unchain's already securing

379
00:39:57,265 --> 00:40:00,165
to then accomplish the wishes of the trust of the will

380
00:40:00,165 --> 00:40:02,064
in terms of moving Bitcoin.

381
00:40:04,945 --> 00:40:05,505
Totally.

382
00:40:06,064 --> 00:40:10,604
And, yeah, I'm sure you guys have heard some gripes from Maximus.

383
00:40:10,604 --> 00:40:22,885
I think it's a pretty genius, like, bulletproof way to go about custody in the most, you know, seamless way possible if you don't already have a professional service provider that is, you know, a key agent.

384
00:40:23,865 --> 00:40:29,405
Yes, you know, it's another copy to Z phrase, but like we talked about earlier in the conversation, you don't have your account log in.

385
00:40:29,584 --> 00:40:30,985
They can initiate a transaction.

386
00:40:31,225 --> 00:40:33,345
You know, they can't collude with Unchained.

387
00:40:33,345 --> 00:40:35,965
so it is fairly seamless.

388
00:40:35,965 --> 00:40:42,185
And even in the protocol, you guys urge clients to call this person every six months,

389
00:40:42,524 --> 00:40:45,665
make sure the bag isn't tampered with, make sure they know where the bag is,

390
00:40:46,064 --> 00:40:50,124
and so we reduce any of that potential human error.

391
00:40:51,024 --> 00:40:55,345
So I think it's like the best off-the-shelf inheritance protocol I've seen,

392
00:40:55,485 --> 00:40:59,425
and it really helps me get peace of mind, giving my clients good advice on how to handle this.

393
00:40:59,965 --> 00:41:01,124
Really appreciate that.

394
00:41:01,124 --> 00:41:07,005
why glad that it's it's working as intended and um you know one note on that you know checking in

395
00:41:07,005 --> 00:41:12,205
every six months right if uh if the bag has been tampered with you you probably need a new trustee

396
00:41:12,205 --> 00:41:17,345
right yeah yeah that's totally fair um

397
00:41:17,345 --> 00:41:25,925
if you're a financial professional working with bitcoin you know the pain of messy csv's broken

398
00:41:25,925 --> 00:41:32,144
cost basis and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. Bitment fixes that. Bitment

399
00:41:32,144 --> 00:41:38,705
is the Bitcoin native accounting platform built for CPAs, bookkeepers, advisors, miners, and serious

400
00:41:38,705 --> 00:41:44,644
Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank statements, reliable cost basis tracking, full

401
00:41:44,644 --> 00:41:50,505
reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid. No crypto talk, no workarounds, just proper accounting

402
00:41:50,505 --> 00:41:55,624
for the hardest money on earth. Create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today.

403
00:41:55,925 --> 00:42:08,925
So I think an interesting conundrum for folks building businesses in the Bitcoin space, obviously, like you're loving for target markets, like probably going to be Bitcoiners.

404
00:42:08,925 --> 00:42:17,925
But after you reach a certain amount of scale and as Bitcoin, you know, kind of just does its thing and continues to grow and reach new people, your target market expands.

405
00:42:17,925 --> 00:42:24,124
expands. And so Unchain has been super supportive of the Bitcoin community, the Bitcoin ecosystem.

406
00:42:24,124 --> 00:42:31,425
You guys sponsor a ton of events, meetups, conferences, like really the whole gamut.

407
00:42:31,624 --> 00:42:36,225
You know, I think you guys make a great effort. If you are represented somewhere, put boots on the

408
00:42:36,225 --> 00:42:41,865
ground. You know, you have like an Unchain representative to talk to the product. And then

409
00:42:41,865 --> 00:42:45,845
recently, and correct me if I'm wrong, if it's more than recently, you guys are kind of moving,

410
00:42:45,845 --> 00:42:54,345
out of Bitcoin events or Bitcoin-specific things into energy or broader finance conferences and

411
00:42:54,345 --> 00:42:59,985
meetups. How have you guys kind of thought about tapping the Bitcoin community, continue to support

412
00:42:59,985 --> 00:43:05,024
sponsor conferences, and then also extending an olive branch to different industries and

413
00:43:05,024 --> 00:43:12,825
potentially onboarding them? Sure. I think it's a two-pronged approach where we're not going to let

414
00:43:12,825 --> 00:43:17,865
go what we've already been doing well, which is the presence at the Bitcoin-only events.

415
00:43:19,005 --> 00:43:23,185
You'll see us at Big Block Boom in a couple weeks down in Texas. And then, of course,

416
00:43:23,345 --> 00:43:28,385
the majority of the team will be out in Vegas there a couple more weeks.

417
00:43:30,165 --> 00:43:37,445
But the second prong of that is the tangential networks and marketing, right? And so I've been

418
00:43:37,445 --> 00:43:41,544
to a couple events recently, like, for instance, with the Colorado Technology Association,

419
00:43:41,544 --> 00:43:46,544
as well as some other local networking events.

420
00:43:46,544 --> 00:43:52,544
But the point being there is that I think Bitcoiners often fall into this trap

421
00:43:52,544 --> 00:43:58,544
of thinking that, you know, it's been around for 15 or 16 years, right?

422
00:43:58,544 --> 00:44:09,657
Like you had to have like if you weren living under a rock and you have any inclination like you should get Bitcoin by now Right And I guess what I would say is what we found is I don believe that that actually the case

423
00:44:10,037 --> 00:44:15,897
I believe that you actually have a lot of smart folks out there who are in their own lane, whatever their craft might be.

424
00:44:15,897 --> 00:44:21,397
And they're trying to provide for their family and they're getting hit on both sides by inflation and taxation.

425
00:44:22,157 --> 00:44:28,917
And they just haven't had the time. And that's what I what I pulled from a couple of these recent events.

426
00:44:28,917 --> 00:44:36,497
is that, you know, I still believe the biggest danger to Bitcoin is apathy, is that we have a

427
00:44:36,497 --> 00:44:43,257
whole society of NPCs and sheeple who don't care, right, enough to, and, you know, we devolve into

428
00:44:43,257 --> 00:44:47,797
the movie Idiocracy, if you've ever seen that, where we have, you know, Powerade coming out of

429
00:44:47,797 --> 00:44:55,857
the water fountains and stuff. I've never seen that movie, no. It's worth a watch. But the point

430
00:44:55,857 --> 00:45:00,837
there being is that I still believe that there's a ton of opportunity, but it's going to take,

431
00:45:00,957 --> 00:45:06,157
you know, twice as much work as we've already put in. And it's going to be, you know, person by

432
00:45:06,157 --> 00:45:11,337
person if we don't want to wait for the whole, you know, change happens one funeral at a time,

433
00:45:11,677 --> 00:45:17,157
morbid outlook, right? And that's, you know, boots on the ground at these Bitcoin only events,

434
00:45:17,157 --> 00:45:23,097
or, you know, go to your local tech networking event, right? Go to your, there's tons of stuff

435
00:45:23,097 --> 00:45:28,057
on Eventbrite, on meetup.com that, you know, there's other folks out there looking to learn.

436
00:45:28,197 --> 00:45:34,277
And most folks who aren't in the financial space kind of have an inkling of, you know,

437
00:45:34,277 --> 00:45:38,837
something's wrong. I just can't figure out quite what it is. Like, I know I feel like I'm on a

438
00:45:38,837 --> 00:45:45,757
treadmill. I get the extra job and things don't really change. So when you can kind of pull that

439
00:45:45,757 --> 00:45:50,777
veil up them for a little bit and let them know that there are, you know, tons of intelligent

440
00:45:50,777 --> 00:45:55,557
of people working on this. And you complement that with something like a physical space,

441
00:45:55,557 --> 00:46:00,937
like the space in Denver, where, you know, you now have the world's first hot tub heated with

442
00:46:00,937 --> 00:46:06,117
Bitcoin mining, right? Like, if, you know, if that doesn't, you know, perk your ear up a little bit,

443
00:46:06,177 --> 00:46:11,317
okay, maybe we're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna eventually figure this out. But I think for

444
00:46:11,317 --> 00:46:17,157
anybody who has an inkling of curiosity, and I think a little bit of pain, those are two,

445
00:46:17,157 --> 00:46:24,077
usually the, the prereqs, um, knowing that there's folks out here like us and, and, and you guys at

446
00:46:24,077 --> 00:46:29,877
Basilic and Jordan with Bitment, um, I think there's, there's plenty of work to be done. So,

447
00:46:29,877 --> 00:46:35,417
you know, let's not rest on our laurels. Um, of course we can sit back, but like, I'm all,

448
00:46:35,597 --> 00:46:40,577
I'm in the camp of, of let's accelerate this so that, you know, we can see the benefit of

449
00:46:40,577 --> 00:46:46,477
living on a hard money standard. Um, ideally while, while you and I are, you know, healthy.

450
00:46:47,157 --> 00:47:16,177
Yeah, right, right. No, I appreciate that. That's something I go back and forth with a lot, like is my time and efforts better spent targeting Bitcoiners? You know, should you reach outside of that, try to get more people in the fold? Obviously, you know, you mentioned too, it's like time is, you know, the most scarce resource. So, you know, allocating that efficiently. And, you know, something I want to end with here that you mentioned, obviously, you know, our audience is more, you know, financial services focused, RIAs, CPAs, state plan attorneys, capital allocators, etc.

451
00:47:17,157 --> 00:47:21,417
What have you guys done in exchange to specifically reach out to those folks?

452
00:47:21,417 --> 00:47:26,197
Is that kind of like a growth cohort you see is servicing?

453
00:47:26,397 --> 00:47:35,177
You know, you get one of me on, you get additional, you know, 10, 20, 30 clients like that are now using the Unchained platform, you know, whatever it may be.

454
00:47:35,597 --> 00:47:40,157
How are you specifically thinking about marketing and reaching out to these kind of folks?

455
00:47:41,137 --> 00:47:41,297
Yeah.

456
00:47:41,397 --> 00:47:47,897
So in the past, there's definitely been some friction there with, you know, product requirements,

457
00:47:48,097 --> 00:47:48,377
et cetera.

458
00:47:48,377 --> 00:47:54,817
And I think we've come a long way on the reporting side of things, the visibility side, the

459
00:47:54,817 --> 00:47:55,837
permissions, right?

460
00:47:55,877 --> 00:48:00,097
So you might be able to view an account and not necessarily take any action.

461
00:48:01,037 --> 00:48:09,357
And, you know, this is a space that we are really excited for meeting folks.

462
00:48:10,157 --> 00:48:18,457
and helping them. And we want to be a resource. I think it's part of that issue where there's still

463
00:48:18,457 --> 00:48:25,537
a lot of advisors and RIAs and financial folks who, you know, this thing was a career risk for

464
00:48:25,537 --> 00:48:30,577
the better part of the last decade, right? So that is definitely going to take time.

465
00:48:31,517 --> 00:48:36,777
But what I would say to those folks, if this is a, you know, little thing at the bottom of

466
00:48:36,777 --> 00:48:41,797
your checklist, like, hey, I got to have some sort of Bitcoin strategy or I have to look deeper into

467
00:48:41,797 --> 00:48:47,917
this, like, come talk to us. Like, we'll, you know, we have, I would argue, you know, the best

468
00:48:47,917 --> 00:48:51,937
sales team in the world and we're distributed across the country. So, you know, no matter where

469
00:48:51,937 --> 00:48:57,837
you are, one of our folks is going to be happy to come, you know, meet you for a coffee or meet with

470
00:48:57,837 --> 00:49:04,057
your firm. Like, right, for instance, this example I used earlier where it was a, you know, business

471
00:49:04,057 --> 00:49:11,857
leader who just hadn't had much education on Bitcoin keys and never thought that a business

472
00:49:11,857 --> 00:49:17,457
could hold it because of that issue with concentrating the risk in terms of one person.

473
00:49:17,917 --> 00:49:22,137
I had a call with him. And then from there, we were able to meet with his entire group

474
00:49:22,137 --> 00:49:29,957
because he works with a bunch of CFOs and controllers who probably make the final say

475
00:49:29,957 --> 00:49:33,777
for their business in terms of whether or not they could even have a Bitcoin approach.

476
00:49:34,057 --> 00:49:47,117
So being able to come at it from there, almost a more top-down approach, I think is beautiful because, you know, after a career in software sales as well, like you can do everything right from a sales perspective.

477
00:49:47,117 --> 00:49:53,937
And then you get chopped down by the CFO, right, because he wasn't aware of what's going on or you didn't really fit into his budget.

478
00:49:56,057 --> 00:50:01,697
So we want to work more with these type of folks.

479
00:50:01,697 --> 00:50:10,957
And I think as the toolkit gets built out with things like BitMint and Satoshi Pacioli, it's just going to make it easier for us to all collaborate.

480
00:50:11,977 --> 00:50:23,057
But please, you know, see Unchained as the Bitcoin infrastructure in your toolkit, along with a team who will teach you whatever you and your clients need to know about Bitcoin.

481
00:50:24,637 --> 00:50:26,437
Yeah, that's fantastic.

482
00:50:26,437 --> 00:50:28,617
I can personally vouch for that.

483
00:50:28,617 --> 00:50:34,657
actual last thing, because you just saved me from the wrath of Jordan. One of the things he wanted

484
00:50:34,657 --> 00:50:40,077
us to talk about, it's like you guys have added a lot of reporting features and stuff. 1099 DA is

485
00:50:40,077 --> 00:50:46,957
a big talking point right now. They're specifically addressing it at Satoshi Patchouli and Bitman

486
00:50:46,957 --> 00:50:52,117
just to make Bitcointer's life easier, especially when it comes from a tax perspective.

487
00:50:52,497 --> 00:50:57,737
You guys are kind of unique. I know a lot of my clients, at least anecdotally, they're still

488
00:50:57,737 --> 00:51:02,877
buying exchanges and then moving Bitcoin over, as you mentioned earlier, in larger UTXO chunks.

489
00:51:03,197 --> 00:51:06,077
But a few clients that utilize the trade desk.

490
00:51:06,597 --> 00:51:08,497
So how are you guys kind of handling that?

491
00:51:08,537 --> 00:51:14,217
Because you're kind of in a unique situation where a lot of, I imagine, Bitcoin secured

492
00:51:14,217 --> 00:51:18,357
through Unchained isn't natively bought at Unchained.

493
00:51:18,357 --> 00:51:23,097
And so it leaves you guys in maybe a little bit of a predicament from a reporting perspective.

494
00:51:23,217 --> 00:51:26,477
So I want you to shed some insight on what you guys have done recently on that.

495
00:51:27,297 --> 00:51:28,117
Yeah, absolutely.

496
00:51:28,277 --> 00:51:38,437
And so, you know, I am obviously far from a tax expert and can provide no, you know, tax, finance or legal advice, but could definitely provide my two stats here.

497
00:51:39,297 --> 00:51:45,377
And where we stand with that is that we are, you know, by law going to provide those forms to all of our clients.

498
00:51:46,037 --> 00:51:52,137
And then, you know, they will be, to my knowledge, as as complete as possible.

499
00:51:52,137 --> 00:51:59,777
Obviously, for any Bitcoin that wasn't purchased through Unchained, there's not going to be a cost basis for that.

500
00:51:59,937 --> 00:52:10,357
So that's going to be up to the individual and the folks that they're filing with to extrapolate that based on their previous records.

501
00:52:10,357 --> 00:52:22,037
um and and so from a general approach there you know we are of the stance that we're obviously

502
00:52:22,037 --> 00:52:28,197
going to comply with any sort of requests like legal requests for information but to the minimum

503
00:52:28,197 --> 00:52:36,197
you know that that we can so we you know stand here with bitcoiners with um with you know privacy

504
00:52:36,197 --> 00:52:37,697
and security at our core.

505
00:52:39,277 --> 00:52:41,237
Given that, you know,

506
00:52:41,277 --> 00:52:42,977
these reporting requirements

507
00:52:42,977 --> 00:52:44,077
are changing over time,

508
00:52:44,597 --> 00:52:47,357
we will stay up to date with them,

509
00:52:47,437 --> 00:52:48,837
you know, as they develop.

510
00:52:49,977 --> 00:52:52,057
Yeah, I think that's really

511
00:52:52,057 --> 00:52:53,377
kind of like the best of both worlds,

512
00:52:53,577 --> 00:52:54,457
you know, take responsibility

513
00:52:54,457 --> 00:52:56,517
for knowing your cost basis.

514
00:52:57,037 --> 00:52:58,357
There are a lot of tools coming out

515
00:52:58,357 --> 00:53:00,817
like BitPen to make that easier.

516
00:53:01,157 --> 00:53:02,537
You know, Unchained as a service provider,

517
00:53:03,537 --> 00:53:04,497
they'll help you,

518
00:53:04,497 --> 00:53:06,397
but ultimately not your responsibility.

519
00:53:06,617 --> 00:53:08,637
And I don't even mean that in like a bad way.

520
00:53:08,717 --> 00:53:09,577
Like you guys are dodging it.

521
00:53:09,617 --> 00:53:12,557
Like you literally don't know my cost basis of Bitcoin.

522
00:53:12,737 --> 00:53:15,037
I bought a river and moved into a chain.

523
00:53:15,637 --> 00:53:17,697
Actual last thing, I promise,

524
00:53:17,897 --> 00:53:22,217
but I think we would be remiss not to talk about this.

525
00:53:22,377 --> 00:53:25,317
I had an intention to earlier, but, you know,

526
00:53:25,317 --> 00:53:28,337
questions I get, I'm sure you get as well.

527
00:53:28,437 --> 00:53:32,277
I think are specifically important for folks in the, you know,

528
00:53:32,277 --> 00:53:37,137
financial services industry is you guys have kind of architectured and constructed Unchained.

529
00:53:37,297 --> 00:53:40,377
You know, it's like, well, what if Unchained goes out of business tomorrow? Like what happens to my

530
00:53:40,377 --> 00:53:45,977
Bitcoin? You know, you have this open source, you know, caravan wallet, you know, very similar to,

531
00:53:45,977 --> 00:53:50,777
you know, Sparrows. You, you know, can actually recreate the wall and still move your Bitcoin,

532
00:53:51,457 --> 00:53:55,657
you know, very sound. Why don't you kind of just walk us mechanically through how that works,

533
00:53:55,697 --> 00:54:01,917
how you guys address that concern? Absolutely. So again, on the ethos of

534
00:54:01,917 --> 00:54:10,697
no single points of failure, right? If Unchained was to disappear overnight, you as a client are

535
00:54:10,697 --> 00:54:15,777
fine as long as you have the knowledge of how to interact with your wallet configuration file.

536
00:54:16,137 --> 00:54:23,077
That's the, you know, kind of map file that's generated for each multi-sig vault, if you will,

537
00:54:23,137 --> 00:54:29,017
and it lives directly in our platform. And then our best practices is that you download a couple

538
00:54:29,017 --> 00:54:39,417
copies for this exact instance. But simply what's required is that you utilize free and open source

539
00:54:39,417 --> 00:54:46,837
multi-sig coordinator software such as Caravan or Electrum or Sparrow. These are different options

540
00:54:46,837 --> 00:54:54,777
that you could utilize where those coordinators will basically take the combination of your config

541
00:54:54,777 --> 00:55:00,857
file and then allow you to sign with your two keys to move the Bitcoin completely independent

542
00:55:00,857 --> 00:55:01,617
of Unchained.

543
00:55:02,097 --> 00:55:08,717
So that also gives clients a lot of extra peace of mind in terms of, hey, yes, like I

544
00:55:08,717 --> 00:55:12,337
know there's these small tradeoffs in terms of you guys know my balance, et cetera.

545
00:55:12,877 --> 00:55:18,237
But knowing that I can't go down with the Unchained ship is huge for me after every,

546
00:55:18,237 --> 00:55:22,817
you know, Celsius, BlockFi type of blow up I've seen over the last 10 years.

547
00:55:23,997 --> 00:55:24,437
Totally.

548
00:55:24,777 --> 00:55:35,577
Yeah, and just personally, I generally instruct clients, if they're holding both keys, download the configuration file, keep that on encrypted, flash drive, like you said, a couple of copies.

549
00:55:35,577 --> 00:55:40,697
And we're able to pretty much weather any storm that can come our way.

550
00:55:40,937 --> 00:55:48,457
And so just another crucial piece of building a quality Bitcoin financial services company I think you guys have taken upon yourself.

551
00:55:48,457 --> 00:55:59,417
A hundred percent. And one more follow through with that is if you're the type of person that's like, hey, man, like you just said a bunch of words salad and said, like, if I know what I need to know, I can get my Bitcoin.

552
00:55:59,817 --> 00:56:10,837
If you don't feel like that, that's fine. Like I would I would welcome you to come work with our team, use our signature service for a year and have that account management to walk you through this.

553
00:56:10,957 --> 00:56:18,337
And you and your family can get on a call and you can do a mock recovery process. Right. So it's not just theoretical. It's like, hey, we see how it actually works.

554
00:56:18,457 --> 00:56:26,317
And now we've removed the uncertainty from what it looks like if something happens to Unchained.

555
00:56:26,417 --> 00:56:27,957
We have a concrete path forward.

556
00:56:28,937 --> 00:56:29,577
Totally.

557
00:56:30,177 --> 00:56:31,157
That's tremendous.

558
00:56:31,797 --> 00:56:33,137
This has been a tremendous conversation.

559
00:56:33,797 --> 00:56:34,797
Where can folks find you, Ben?

560
00:56:36,417 --> 00:56:38,117
They can find me.

561
00:56:38,217 --> 00:56:40,897
So I am our director of sales for Unchained in Colorado.

562
00:56:41,437 --> 00:56:44,757
And shortly I'll be handling more of the Mountain West here.

563
00:56:44,757 --> 00:56:53,377
So if you're in Colorado or this general area, you know, feel free to reach out to me, just Benjamin at Unchained.com.

564
00:56:53,957 --> 00:57:01,357
I'm also on X at Bitcoin Benji, B-E-N-J-I-I-I, three I's.

565
00:57:02,157 --> 00:57:07,037
And then I do as much as I can on the ground.

566
00:57:07,177 --> 00:57:11,257
So I'm on the board of directors here of the space Denver.

567
00:57:11,257 --> 00:57:16,137
So if you're ever in town, you know, feel free to give me a ring and we could set up some time there.

568
00:57:16,737 --> 00:57:21,997
And then I live in Boulder, Colorado, and I run the local meetup up here.

569
00:57:22,797 --> 00:57:26,617
So we have a small, thriving community of Bitcoiners.

570
00:57:26,877 --> 00:57:32,117
And, you know, our mission this year is to increase merchant adoption.

571
00:57:32,357 --> 00:57:38,157
So, you know, if you're out in Boulder and Denver, open up your cash app map and see where you can spend Bitcoin.

572
00:57:38,157 --> 00:57:41,337
and let's get this thing going in rotation

573
00:57:41,337 --> 00:57:43,877
because it starts as a store of value,

574
00:57:44,137 --> 00:57:45,817
then we go to medium of exchange

575
00:57:45,817 --> 00:57:48,017
and eventually unit of account.

576
00:57:49,157 --> 00:57:50,037
That's right, man.

577
00:57:50,177 --> 00:57:50,957
Thanks so much, brother.

578
00:57:51,037 --> 00:57:51,477
It was a pleasure.

579
00:57:52,377 --> 00:57:52,737
Absolutely.

580
00:57:52,877 --> 00:57:53,457
Thank you, Wyatt.

581
00:57:53,797 --> 00:57:54,137
Take care.

582
00:57:59,517 --> 00:58:00,977
We appreciate you joining us.

583
00:58:01,317 --> 00:58:02,677
If you want to help build the future

584
00:58:02,677 --> 00:58:04,157
of Bitcoin and financial services,

585
00:58:04,497 --> 00:58:06,117
hit subscribe, leave a review,

586
00:58:06,677 --> 00:58:07,537
sign up for a newsletter,

587
00:58:07,537 --> 00:58:12,377
and most importantly, share this with someone in your network who's integrating Bitcoin into

588
00:58:12,377 --> 00:58:17,317
their practice. The more professionals we reach, the better served our clients are.

589
00:58:17,957 --> 00:58:20,637
Stay sharp, stay sovereign. Keep lean from the front.

590
00:58:37,537 --> 00:58:39,337
Music

591
00:58:39,337 --> 00:58:41,657
Music

592
00:58:41,657 --> 00:58:43,697
music