1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,840 The value prop of our product in putting this together is it's real Bitcoin. 2 00:00:03,020 --> 00:00:07,260 Because right now you could open up an HSA and get some proxy exposure via the ETFs, 3 00:00:07,700 --> 00:00:10,960 but our product is the only one where you can have real Bitcoin in your account. 4 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:16,260 And ultimately we're using BitGo on the backend and BitGo really exciting news around their OCC 5 00:00:16,260 --> 00:00:21,480 charter. So institutional grade security, multi-sig, cold storage of the Bitcoin at 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,280 the individual user level. Bitcoin is a currency on the internet. 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,320 If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go. 8 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:30,580 It's going to outperform everything. 9 00:00:30,740 --> 00:00:32,220 Bitcoin could eventually be worthless. 10 00:00:32,420 --> 00:00:34,120 Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin. 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,640 Bitcoin reached its highest price to date. 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,280 Bitcoin getting a new high. 13 00:00:38,380 --> 00:00:40,100 It really has reached escape velocity. 14 00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:41,240 There is no second best. 15 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,480 Who cares about Bitcoin? 16 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,900 It's the only secure database that's ever been invented. 17 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:46,000 Antisocial. 18 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:47,820 Bitcoin is the real deal. 19 00:00:48,020 --> 00:00:48,420 Stupid. 20 00:00:48,780 --> 00:00:50,680 Everything is bullish for Bitcoin. 21 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:51,360 Immoral. 22 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,040 It's going up forever, Laura. 23 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,380 Fix the money. 24 00:00:54,980 --> 00:00:55,760 Fix the world. 25 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:26,260 Thank you. 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:32,560 Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services, the podcast for sound money meets professional 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,760 services. We explore how to build a financial services industry within the principles, values, 28 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:44,260 and ethos of Bitcoin. Today, we're joined by John Gordon and Stuart Lackey, co-founders of SoundHSA. 29 00:01:44,580 --> 00:01:49,160 We'll be exploring sound money, sound hell, and how they're integrating Bitcoin into the 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:57,580 findings in healthcare industries. Let's get started. Alrighty, welcome back to the Bitcoin 31 00:01:57,580 --> 00:02:03,240 for Financial Services podcast. Today, we've got a real fun treat. We've got John Gordon and we've 32 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:09,040 got Stu or Stuart Lackey. They're both in Nashville together. I'm jealous. They're both 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,940 at the park. And then, of course, Wyatt's at the space. And so I'm the only one that's not in a 34 00:02:14,940 --> 00:02:21,800 Bitcoin Citadel today. So welcome to everyone. Thanks for having us. 35 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:28,600 Absolutely. Well, we've got a lot to talk about. Even as we were just talking through 36 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:34,460 kind of outline and everything before we hit record, it came to my head like, man, 37 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:41,160 healthcare is one of the top issues that's being discussed in the mainstream media, 38 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:47,300 Congress level, all that kind of stuff. At least the last I kind of listened in earlier this week. 39 00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:53,960 So I'm very excited about this discussion. I think it's a really unique perspective on how, 40 00:02:54,140 --> 00:02:58,600 you know, something that a normal Bitcoin would be like, hmm, I didn't think about how that ties 41 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:04,600 in, but it does. And so John, Stu, why don't you all give us your all's background, give us an 42 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,740 introduction so that our audience can get to know you a little bit better. Sure, sure. I'll go first. 43 00:03:09,740 --> 00:03:21,740 But yeah, so I've spent the last 20 plus years launching novel surgical device companies, helping commercialize those opportunities, predominantly the neurosurgery and orthopedic spine space. 44 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:31,520 And I've been based in Nashville for most of my working career, which is kind of the healthcare capital of the world, certainly from a hospital and a service standpoint. 45 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:40,760 But what I noticed over that time, as we launched those companies, we live in a kind of a fee-for-service market in the U.S. healthcare system. 46 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,020 And so in 1960, we spent $26 billion as a country on healthcare. 47 00:03:45,220 --> 00:03:46,300 Today, we spend $5 trillion. 48 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:53,040 So the more tests that we run, the more prescription drugs that are ordered, the more implants and surgeries that are performed. 49 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:55,680 Hopefully, if they're indicated, that's great. 50 00:03:55,980 --> 00:03:58,540 But we add more bloat to the system. 51 00:03:58,540 --> 00:04:18,940 There are a ton of intermediaries that have caused inflationary pressure to the healthcare system. And so most people now who have studied this recognize that it's now 20% of GDP, it's out of control. And the end user, what is called the patient customer, really doesn't know what healthcare costs. I don't know if anybody really does. 52 00:04:18,940 --> 00:04:43,520 And so we've gone from this back 40, 50 years ago from asking how much is my copay or maybe how much is my deductible, right? It's kind of this ambiguous nature. There's no true marketplace in health. And so I found Bitcoin in 2016 and kind of started my journey and discovery of sound money. And now we're excited to kind of combine that with sound health. So I'll let John talk about his journey. 53 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:45,220 Yeah, thanks, Stu. 54 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,400 And like Stu, I have a background in the healthcare industry, started out my career doing strategy 55 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,200 consulting for hospitals and health systems across the country, got into the payer space, 56 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:01,880 working in a big Medicaid plan, and then moved over to the medical supplies arena around 57 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:02,480 COVID time. 58 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:07,140 It was an interesting one to be managing gauze products coming out of China when COVID hit. 59 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,540 And throughout that time, I also completed a master's in health economics and policy 60 00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:17,340 and was getting married and just started asking the question, what is money in 2020? 61 00:05:17,660 --> 00:05:22,660 And started to realize that what I'd seen firsthand as broken in the healthcare system 62 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:28,420 is saying not having a true marketplace for goods and services and having only now 10% 63 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:29,620 of healthcare is self-pay. 64 00:05:29,780 --> 00:05:31,540 The rest is third-party payment. 65 00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:35,020 There's a lot of fundamental issues with that setup in the marketplace. 66 00:05:35,740 --> 00:05:41,460 I started thinking and really orienting myself towards working to integrate Bitcoin into the 67 00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:42,200 healthcare industry. 68 00:05:42,540 --> 00:06:01,480 And so that's what I've been focused on the last few years and have recently been helping doctors and dentists and other business owners integrate a Bitcoin strategy, accepting Bitcoin as payment, saving in Bitcoin, marketing to Bitcoiners, and really trying to strengthen the independent practice model out there, particularly direct primary care, something we'll get into a little bit more. 69 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,080 where the patient actually is the customer of the doctor. 70 00:06:05,180 --> 00:06:06,360 And we restore that relationship 71 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,520 and showing that Bitcoin really is a way 72 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,520 to strengthen that relationship even further 73 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,140 through that value for value connection. 74 00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:16,120 So Stu and I connected earlier this year 75 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:17,840 and co-founded Sound HSA 76 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:19,700 and are super excited to be launching 77 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:22,360 what we think is the first Bitcoin 78 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,160 health savings account product on the market. 79 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:27,720 And Bitcoin, as you all know, 80 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:31,080 is the best money humans have ever discovered. 81 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,440 And we see it as health savings technology and something that can be there to have the 82 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,740 purchasing power we need as we inevitably age and have different healthcare needs moving forward. 83 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:45,140 Yeah, that's fantastic, gentlemen. 84 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,260 I appreciate the overview there. 85 00:06:47,420 --> 00:06:53,820 Stu, such a good point about not knowing what healthcare costs. 86 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,280 Like that blows my mind. 87 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:59,320 And I try not to think about it too much, honestly, because I get frustrated and it 88 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:00,760 derails the rest of my day. 89 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:06,260 But, you know, shameless plug here, I've only recently got a better idea of what healthcare cost is. 90 00:07:06,380 --> 00:07:08,280 I became a CrowdHealth member about two years ago. 91 00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:09,700 We got the whole family on it now. 92 00:07:09,980 --> 00:07:11,040 I love CrowdHealth. 93 00:07:11,140 --> 00:07:11,580 They're amazing. 94 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:19,540 And I think, you know, you guys kind of work in, you know, I would say probably, you know, tangential missions and, you know, specifically, you know, kind of service Bitcoiners. 95 00:07:19,660 --> 00:07:21,240 I have a big presence in the Bitcoin crowd. 96 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,340 So I think that's really awesome. 97 00:07:23,340 --> 00:07:32,140 But I kind of want to get some insight from you guys on what it's been like tackling three different industries. 98 00:07:32,140 --> 00:07:39,500 So we got the healthcare industry, we got the finance industry, the HSA product, obviously the Bitcoin component. 99 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,420 And to preface that question more too, I use you guys as a gamble all the time. 100 00:07:45,500 --> 00:07:51,880 Something I talk about very frequently is Bitcoin financial services, most exciting industry to be in 101 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:56,040 because you have these existing Tradify products that just need to be applied to Bitcoin. 102 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,340 And you guys are specifically going after that HSA product. 103 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,120 So I think that's very fascinating and a great case study, I think, for our audience. 104 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,060 So why don't you give us some insight on what it's like tackling three industries at one time? 105 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:15,740 Well, I can maybe speak to the HSA piece a little bit and why this product needs to exist 106 00:08:15,740 --> 00:08:18,440 and why it'll be important for, we hope, millions of people. 107 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,720 So the HSA itself, the health savings account was instantiated in 2003. 108 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:27,420 And it was kind of grandfathered in with a lot of the IRA legislation at that time. 109 00:08:28,580 --> 00:08:34,620 And so most people, as we talk to Bitcoiners, most people don't know much about the HSA or how it works. 110 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,500 Right. And so we have done a lot of educating around HSAs. 111 00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:40,880 The Bitcoin piece we love, obviously, it's novel. 112 00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:46,380 But really, one of the real opportunities is to educate around how to maximize the health savings account. 113 00:08:46,380 --> 00:09:03,400 Currently, there's about 40 million HSA accounts in America and about 150, 160 billion in assets under management. And what most people do is they take the tax treatment, if they have that through their employer, and then they spend out of it as soon as they save. 114 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:15,640 So most people, for whatever reason, whether they're not in a position to or just don't understand the economics, have chosen not to save and really leverage the triple tax advantage nature of the account. 115 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:32,120 So it's either tax free money going in or if you open an HSA on the open market, it's tax deductible. The growth, whether it's in equities or in case with us with Bitcoin, grows tax free. 116 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:46,500 And then you can spend it through the life of the account on health goods and services with no tax. The other real cool thing is at age 65, you guys know this, age 65, the HSA turns into ostensibly a traditional IRA. 117 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:52,320 and so but without a lot of the the challenges of like mandatory withdrawals after a certain age 118 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,900 the HSA doesn't carry that so there's some really cool things that the HSA offers and so again John 119 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:04,680 made the point we think Bitcoin is uniquely suited to be married to this product at least in some way 120 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:09,820 shape or form and so that's why one of the reasons why we are so passionate about the product and why 121 00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:17,720 we stood the company on. In terms of Bitcoin, a lot of folks are hesitant to maybe spend it 122 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:23,480 because of the capital gains tax. Well, here's a really unique tax structure in America where 123 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:28,340 you don't have to worry about capital gains tax. And we can actually spur on a circular economy 124 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:35,120 in health using Bitcoin over time. And particularly some of the policy updates that were incorporating 125 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:41,020 the big, beautiful bill expands who's eligible for a health savings account. So as it stands, 126 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:47,320 you need a high deductible health plan to continue to contribute to your HSA, but you can be eligible 127 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,920 with a bronze or catastrophic plan on the marketplace, which tend to have the lowest 128 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:57,180 premiums for the month. And it's interesting because the HSA market is split. It's 60%. 129 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:05,060 HSAs are garnered through employment. 40% are individual open market HSAs. So it's really have 130 00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:09,400 this approach that employers are a big piece of it, but also individuals. It's something that you 131 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,200 can bring with you beyond your relationship with your employer and beyond the year. People get 132 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:19,660 confused with FSAs, which are flexible spending accounts. Those are use it or lose it offered by 133 00:11:19,660 --> 00:11:24,780 the employee or offered by the employer, excuse me. With HSAs, you bring it with you, as Stu 134 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:28,640 mentioned, and you can hold on to those receipts and reimburse yourself into the future for 135 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,960 whatever healthcare needs you have, and particularly now direct primary care, 136 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:39,640 or you have a relationship with your doctor, say a $100 monthly membership fee to have a provider 137 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,840 that gets to actually know you and work with you and improve your health, 138 00:11:44,540 --> 00:11:51,900 that spend will be eligible within the HSA, which previously it was not because it was considered 139 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:56,680 alternative coverage. So these are some of the movements that were already happening on Capitol 140 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:01,220 Hill with the big, beautiful bill. And we think the HSA is a structure that's going to continue to 141 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:08,040 grow in its usefulness and utilization and increasing balance in those accounts for savings 142 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:14,320 where the government is running out of money in Medicare to actually pay for our healthcare in 143 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,740 the future 30, 40 years from now. I highly doubt that it'll be there around for us. So by stacking 144 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:26,020 some stats today, we believe that that'll be there to purchase directly whatever healthcare 145 00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:27,260 services you need in the future. 146 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,600 Your wealth deserves intention. 147 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,720 Basilic Financial is a Bitcoin-focused wealth management firm built to help our clients 148 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,500 find balance between money and meaning. 149 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:42,220 We integrate sound money strategies across four distinct personalized services. 150 00:12:42,620 --> 00:12:47,240 Financial planning, individual wealth management, retirement services for SMBs, and Bitcoin 151 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,160 financial services. 152 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,680 Your prosperity, your purpose, intentionally guided at Basilic Financial. 153 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:56,480 visit our website at bacillic.io to schedule free consultation. 154 00:12:58,220 --> 00:12:59,040 I love it. 155 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,440 I mean, Wyatt and I both speak with a lot of business owners and, and obviously our 156 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:32,121 audience is I would say mostly advisors but there are some business owners that also listen in I just be curious you know I was listening to a podcast more of a political podcast earlier in the week and it was speaking about how Obamacare you know while maybe it had good intentions it ended up bankrupting a lot of small business owners because it didn do what it was intended to do in terms of bring down the cost of health insurance for employers and for employees 157 00:13:32,121 --> 00:13:37,221 and it's really interesting like as you scale up a business and you end up needing to hire 158 00:13:37,221 --> 00:13:42,521 people and not only just any people you want to hire the best people you and you you have to have 159 00:13:42,521 --> 00:13:48,381 this conversation with them about benefits right and so i'd be curious to get your all's you know 160 00:13:48,381 --> 00:13:54,741 thoughts on how you see employers fitting into this especially you know business owners that 161 00:13:54,741 --> 00:14:00,101 are bitcoiners they're looking to incorporate bitcoin into their business and then also extend 162 00:14:00,101 --> 00:14:06,201 that out to the benefits that they offer to their employees? The employer piece, as John mentioned, 163 00:14:06,301 --> 00:14:13,081 there's a huge part of the market. 60% of the market is tied to employers. And we are certainly 164 00:14:13,081 --> 00:14:19,941 looking at that as a part of our roadmap as we get into next year. Our first entree is offering 165 00:14:19,941 --> 00:14:25,941 this as truly as an open market, self-directed product. But the employer piece is huge. There's 166 00:14:25,941 --> 00:14:33,061 a lot of ways that employers now leverage HSAs. Many employers are now starting to offer matches, 167 00:14:33,961 --> 00:14:39,821 right? Where they're, you know, potentially they can fund the entire contribution maximum 168 00:14:39,821 --> 00:14:43,741 for the account, which is pretty interesting. I've worked for companies personally that have 169 00:14:43,741 --> 00:14:48,641 offered a match, a percentage of the total contribution limit. And it's nice, right? So 170 00:14:48,641 --> 00:14:54,961 you can really accelerate your savings and potentially the growth. We think over time, 171 00:14:54,961 --> 00:15:01,401 is if you look at the benefits stack, the HSA product, you can offer as many HSAs technically 172 00:15:01,401 --> 00:15:06,661 as you want to an employer benefit stack. But often the HSA is kind of a throwaway 173 00:15:06,661 --> 00:15:13,001 conversation, right? It's one piece that is offered as a part of that. And so we want to 174 00:15:13,001 --> 00:15:18,741 come in as a differentiated product, either alongside or as the sole HSA provider. And so 175 00:15:18,741 --> 00:15:24,581 we've certainly started to talk to companies about that. As we all know, there's a litany of 176 00:15:24,581 --> 00:15:31,121 companies that have Bitcoin on their balance sheet now. And so we're approaching that marketplace as 177 00:15:31,121 --> 00:15:34,361 we get into this employer conversation. So I don't know if you want to add anything. 178 00:15:34,721 --> 00:15:40,521 Yeah. Yeah. So companies over 50 have to provide health insurance as a benefit to their employees. 179 00:15:41,181 --> 00:15:46,401 And one of the ways that, as you mentioned, Jordan, the cost of healthcare continues to rise. 180 00:15:46,401 --> 00:15:52,301 It's outpacing inflation. One of the ways that employers can try to lower their cost is by 181 00:15:52,301 --> 00:15:57,201 actually self-insuring rather than using a third-party insurer, which really does align 182 00:15:57,201 --> 00:16:00,921 incentives because they want their employees to be healthy. The less health care utilization they 183 00:16:00,921 --> 00:16:08,261 have, the less they'll pay out. And they can also kind of steer their people towards lower cost 184 00:16:08,261 --> 00:16:13,661 plans, which tend to be high deductible plans paired with HSAs. And they can contribute directly 185 00:16:13,661 --> 00:16:18,441 to their employees' HSA, which often happens. 186 00:16:18,441 --> 00:16:24,921 So the individual limit this year, and now actually going into 2026, 187 00:16:25,661 --> 00:16:30,061 it'll be around $4,500 a year is the max for an individual to contribute, 188 00:16:30,241 --> 00:16:33,541 $8,750 for a family, if you have family coverage. 189 00:16:34,601 --> 00:16:37,721 Employees could contribute up to the max if they wanted to. 190 00:16:37,981 --> 00:16:41,581 And we think especially for Bitcoin companies or those that want to attract talent 191 00:16:41,581 --> 00:16:43,121 as that becomes more and more difficult, 192 00:16:43,661 --> 00:16:53,181 The HSA can be used pretty strategically to put additional tax-advantaged dollars and eventually Bitcoin, sats, into their employees' pockets. 193 00:16:53,361 --> 00:17:07,561 So there's a lot of flexibility with the HSA and the whole arena of health plan design and navigating the broker spaces can be very challenging for companies, especially for startups. 194 00:17:07,701 --> 00:17:09,321 They're seeing costs continue to rise. 195 00:17:09,321 --> 00:17:36,501 So I think these types of alternatives are really important to know that are out there. And then when it comes to the marketplace, you're absolutely right that changes to subsidies in the ACA marketplace have been all over the headlines that led to over a 30-day shutdown in the government due to kind of fighting over these billions of dollars of subsidies, which end to the end user makes health insurance plans in the marketplace be more expensive. 196 00:17:36,501 --> 00:17:42,561 but actually one of the bills they floated and it was actually shot down last voted just it didn't 197 00:17:42,561 --> 00:17:47,421 get enough votes but something that's was was proposed by republicans was instead of the 198 00:17:47,421 --> 00:17:52,061 subsidies going essentially to the health insurers but lowering the cost of the individual it would 199 00:17:52,061 --> 00:17:57,181 be as a health savings account contribution to the individual who's signing up for the insurance plan 200 00:17:57,181 --> 00:18:03,301 so again there the hsa is a pretty big part of the conversation we'd say in trying to be flexible and 201 00:18:03,301 --> 00:18:09,081 get at some of the these trends of rising costs in healthcare but ultimately we feel 202 00:18:09,081 --> 00:18:14,821 in the system is pretty broken and it's up to the individual to find the best solution for them and 203 00:18:14,821 --> 00:18:19,221 you know for you and your family to ultimately build your own nest egg your own savings 204 00:18:19,221 --> 00:18:23,121 we believe in bitcoin is the best way to do that for that future uncertainty 205 00:18:23,121 --> 00:18:28,681 when a health event might happen but ultimately knowing okay i have some 206 00:18:28,681 --> 00:18:33,221 set set aside that i know when i spend i'm not going to get taxed on but that i can get the 207 00:18:33,221 --> 00:18:40,541 services me and my family needs. That's tremendous insight, gentlemen. I appreciate that. And, 208 00:18:40,621 --> 00:18:46,141 you know, I was wondering if you can maybe kind of expand on like your go-to-market strategy and 209 00:18:46,141 --> 00:18:50,221 kind of how you're communicating the value proposition here. I think you kind of touched 210 00:18:50,221 --> 00:18:55,001 on it some, but I think specifically when people are thinking about starting new Bitcoin businesses 211 00:18:55,001 --> 00:19:02,321 or integrating Bitcoin into their business, like it's, you have to be strategic about it and kind 212 00:19:02,321 --> 00:19:06,861 of understand like who you're talking to. And a lot of times, you know, kind of devolves into like 213 00:19:06,861 --> 00:19:11,561 this macro conversation, which may or may not be, you know, appropriate. So, you know, one of the 214 00:19:11,561 --> 00:19:15,281 things I talk about with my clients a lot, so like around, you know, social security and when we want 215 00:19:15,281 --> 00:19:20,621 to take that. And then I have to like, get into this conversation on unfunded liabilities and 216 00:19:20,621 --> 00:19:26,101 what are the odds you actually even get this, you know, if you do, is it going to be fake printed 217 00:19:26,101 --> 00:19:30,061 money? And, you know, you brought up, you know, Medicaid and the unfunded liabilities there. So 218 00:19:30,061 --> 00:19:31,621 So how do you guys kind of approach it? 219 00:19:31,661 --> 00:19:33,301 Are you kind of top level macro view? 220 00:19:33,421 --> 00:19:36,421 Are you kind of more on the holistic care front? 221 00:19:36,801 --> 00:19:41,441 And what kind of pitfalls or success have you guys had in going to market? 222 00:19:42,901 --> 00:19:44,241 Yeah, I'll take that. 223 00:19:44,341 --> 00:19:50,681 I mean, as I think we may have mentioned in the beginning, we're in our beta launch right now. 224 00:19:50,681 --> 00:19:52,521 So we're testing the product. 225 00:19:52,761 --> 00:19:56,601 And so we're taking a very grassroots approach to start. 226 00:19:56,881 --> 00:19:58,581 And we're approaching the Bitcoin community. 227 00:19:58,581 --> 00:20:03,821 part of what we've been working on this entire year is building a wait list. And so we've built 228 00:20:03,821 --> 00:20:08,621 some other functionality. You can download the Sound HSA app right now on iOS or Android, 229 00:20:08,621 --> 00:20:15,581 and it's essentially an incentive platform. So you get Satoshi's for taking steps. And so we've 230 00:20:15,581 --> 00:20:19,681 done global challenges where we've had over, I think, 3,000 downloads now of the app and 231 00:20:19,681 --> 00:20:25,621 massive participation. But from that, we've built an HSA wait list, predominantly of Bitcoiners. 232 00:20:25,621 --> 00:20:38,861 So there's a huge subset of the community that is HSA eligible, and they either have an HSA and they want to transfer a portion of it to sound, or they're going to open up maybe their first HSA ever. 233 00:20:39,641 --> 00:20:43,921 And again, in terms of the demographic, the crossover is very similar. 234 00:20:44,541 --> 00:20:51,081 I think it's safe to say that it's predominantly men at this point who are Bitcoiners, at least through this point in the adoption process. 235 00:20:51,981 --> 00:21:02,341 And so we're approaching that younger demographic, male and female, to open up HSA accounts with us, either via transfer or brand new account creation. 236 00:21:02,601 --> 00:21:08,461 And so we've built a platform, guys, that we believe offers a great user experience. 237 00:21:08,461 --> 00:21:14,361 I think we all can appreciate how that has evolved in our space, in the Bitcoin space over time. 238 00:21:14,741 --> 00:21:17,721 It was really clunky when I first discovered Bitcoin back in 2016. 239 00:21:17,921 --> 00:21:19,081 It certainly has improved. 240 00:21:19,081 --> 00:21:22,721 and we've built tooling into the platform that enables, 241 00:21:23,341 --> 00:21:26,621 as far as self-directed defined contribution accounts go, 242 00:21:26,701 --> 00:21:29,781 we think this is probably the best that's going to be out there. 243 00:21:30,181 --> 00:21:32,241 And so we've looked for ways to automate that. 244 00:21:32,721 --> 00:21:34,401 We think Bitcoiners will appreciate that. 245 00:21:34,581 --> 00:21:37,961 Obviously, a younger demographic will absolutely demand that 246 00:21:37,961 --> 00:21:42,401 with a high quality experience as they engage with the platform. 247 00:21:42,401 --> 00:21:45,301 So that's one piece of it. 248 00:21:45,761 --> 00:21:45,901 Yeah. 249 00:21:46,241 --> 00:21:46,441 Yeah. 250 00:21:46,461 --> 00:21:48,341 Our move to earn was a huge component this year. 251 00:21:48,341 --> 00:21:52,321 We launched at Bitcoin Vegas, so we're offering sats for steps. 252 00:21:52,601 --> 00:21:56,961 And we think this education piece of getting some sats in your hands, learning about Bitcoin 253 00:21:56,961 --> 00:22:02,041 is a huge front runner and understanding of, okay, now I'm going to want to save in Bitcoin 254 00:22:02,041 --> 00:22:03,381 further down the road. 255 00:22:03,741 --> 00:22:07,221 So we have some exciting updates on mobile app side. 256 00:22:07,581 --> 00:22:09,441 It's all Noster integrated as well. 257 00:22:09,521 --> 00:22:13,581 So you have your own identity that in your public private key pair, just like Bitcoin, 258 00:22:13,741 --> 00:22:15,141 but for your identity and communication. 259 00:22:15,141 --> 00:22:18,221 So actually your step data you can save to Nostra. 260 00:22:18,381 --> 00:22:22,501 We're integrating a Lightning app in our next release using the Breeze SDK. 261 00:22:23,381 --> 00:22:25,601 So folks will have a self-custodial Lightning wallet. 262 00:22:26,041 --> 00:22:28,001 And this is all outside the HSA structure. 263 00:22:28,441 --> 00:22:35,781 But just to learn about Bitcoin, receive some sats, maybe spend it locally now that Square's rolled out payments for more and more merchants. 264 00:22:35,981 --> 00:22:38,321 Where can I spend Bitcoin? Getting experience with it. 265 00:22:38,901 --> 00:22:44,801 And then that's really our driver for gaining awareness, letting people learn about what we're doing. 266 00:22:45,141 --> 00:22:47,361 And then, and that's open globally. 267 00:22:47,541 --> 00:22:51,021 We had many people download the app all over the world, which is really exciting and fun 268 00:22:51,021 --> 00:22:56,381 to have people hitting their step goals all over from Nigeria and Switzerland to Canada 269 00:22:56,381 --> 00:22:57,141 and US. 270 00:22:57,921 --> 00:23:00,741 So we're going to continue to roll out some of those challenges. 271 00:23:00,921 --> 00:23:03,201 That product's also available for employers. 272 00:23:03,461 --> 00:23:07,141 We've been piloting with a doctor in Houston for his employees as well. 273 00:23:07,521 --> 00:23:11,381 So we see that as a tool on the wellness side that companies can use. 274 00:23:11,381 --> 00:23:26,541 And then for the HSA itself, as Stu mentioned, we're rolling out for the individual market here over the coming weeks and months. We'll start with the beta and our waitlist and then moving towards kind of a more public launch later into Q1. 275 00:23:26,541 --> 00:23:36,121 But we're really excited about who we're partnering with and working with on this product as the HSA is an IRS regulated product. 276 00:23:36,421 --> 00:23:38,121 And we're not a trust company ourselves. 277 00:23:38,121 --> 00:23:41,461 We need to find great trust companies out there to work with. 278 00:23:41,721 --> 00:23:48,801 And we're working with Horizon Trust out of New Mexico and Digital Trust out of Nevada. 279 00:23:49,621 --> 00:23:53,921 Ultimately, the value prop of our product in putting this together is it's real Bitcoin. 280 00:23:53,921 --> 00:24:14,601 Because right now you could open up an HSA and get some proxy exposure via the ETFs, but our product is the only one where you can have real Bitcoin in your account. And ultimately we're using BitGo on the backend and BitGo really exciting news around their OCC charter. So institutional grade security, multi-sig, cold storage of the Bitcoin at the individual user level. 281 00:24:14,601 --> 00:24:23,781 And so Horizon has a lot of experience already administering HSAs, but we're building the front end, the user experience to try to automate that process. 282 00:24:24,001 --> 00:24:26,201 As you mentioned, it can be a very form driven process. 283 00:24:26,201 --> 00:24:33,601 If you've ever opened up a self-directed instrument and some of you all have to say the least on maybe helping your clients open up these accounts. 284 00:24:33,921 --> 00:24:39,521 So we're trying to modernize that through through our user onboarding experience. 285 00:24:39,521 --> 00:25:02,781 And so we're really excited about that differentiation. Uploading receipts is a really important part of the platform. So we're starting more on the web and then we'll continue to migrate more and more features onto mobile. So you can check your balance on mobile, maybe upload receipts for healthcare eligible spend. And you're building up a bit of that piggy bank that you can draw from over time, right, as needed. 286 00:25:02,781 --> 00:25:28,281 So you can withdraw directly. But of course, as Stu mentioned, and given the contribution limits on the accounts, really the best usage of the HSA is in the NAA, the savings component. We, of course, understand people need to spend out of these accounts as well. Certain things come up. But if it's viewed in that perspective and really as Bitcoin is, when you're hodling for at least four years, you're increasing your purchasing power over the 16-year history of Bitcoin. 287 00:25:28,281 --> 00:25:32,941 and we're doing a lot of education here at this intersection of bitcoin and health 288 00:25:32,941 --> 00:25:37,821 and so it's interesting for the bitcoin audience that we expect and we see as our first 289 00:25:37,821 --> 00:25:42,001 customers and users of the product they're already pretty savvy in bitcoin you know we're getting 290 00:25:42,001 --> 00:25:46,541 them into the hsa but for this broader health care market as you mentioned there's 40 million 291 00:25:46,541 --> 00:25:54,601 accounts uh there's a huge opportunity to bring people into bitcoin from this legacy health care 292 00:25:54,601 --> 00:25:59,041 system. And so that's even the bigger opportunity for us and what we're excited about and kind of 293 00:25:59,041 --> 00:26:03,541 meeting the market where it is and trying to orange pill in this way. 294 00:26:04,981 --> 00:26:08,821 Yeah, that's so cool. I love what you're saying there, John, about it, you know, being real Bitcoin. 295 00:26:08,821 --> 00:26:25,722 And I think it so crucially important that entrepreneurs in this space build products support real Bitcoin as opposed to paper Bitcoin So tip of the cap to you guys on that You absolutely right about the self accounts It could be a huge pain in the ass to get those types of accounts set up 296 00:26:25,722 --> 00:26:30,822 But I think especially important with Bitcoiners and getting exposure to bare assets 297 00:26:30,822 --> 00:26:32,982 about Bitcoin, you got to work with Unchained. 298 00:26:32,982 --> 00:26:36,782 They've done a phenomenal job in making that process easy for financial 299 00:26:36,782 --> 00:26:38,622 professionals to utilize. 300 00:26:38,622 --> 00:26:42,322 And then lastly, too, on the 301 00:26:42,522 --> 00:26:48,042 stats for for step challenges i think that's just like a phenomenal way to to get bitcoins in the 302 00:26:48,042 --> 00:26:52,202 hands of people getting them moving and healthy and that's you know crucial component for for 303 00:26:52,202 --> 00:26:56,202 people getting comfortable with bitcoin you guys were active participant in the big one for 304 00:26:56,202 --> 00:27:01,482 financial services summit uh we got a lot of folks out in the rocky mountains for some fresh air so 305 00:27:01,482 --> 00:27:05,162 do you just want to take this opportunity to give us uh some flowers on how great of an event that 306 00:27:05,162 --> 00:27:11,482 was phenomenal event yeah it was awesome uh we loved it and it was fun to have uh yeah the hike 307 00:27:11,482 --> 00:27:15,802 activation as part of the conference. It's a lot of sitting. So to get outside, get some fresh air 308 00:27:15,802 --> 00:27:20,102 in Colorado and yeah, really neat. Met some amazing folks. Some of the folks we met there are 309 00:27:20,102 --> 00:27:24,182 on the beta list. They want to use the product. They want to help their clients learn about it 310 00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:29,642 and get into the Sound HSA. So it's an awesome event. Look forward to participating again 311 00:27:29,642 --> 00:27:34,562 next year. And I think especially as it comes to emerging products in Bitcoin and really 312 00:27:34,562 --> 00:27:40,702 understanding Bitcoin as this bridging the gap for financial professionals is really important. 313 00:27:40,702 --> 00:27:45,782 So I think the work you guys are doing is great and utilizing the space in Denver. 314 00:27:45,922 --> 00:27:46,822 Looking forward to seeing it. 315 00:27:46,822 --> 00:27:51,562 So why you said you might tease a little bit of a different format, maybe some rapid fire 316 00:27:51,562 --> 00:27:54,182 questions, shorter presentations. 317 00:27:54,742 --> 00:28:01,322 I think anything to spice it up and keep people engaged, interested, excited is important. 318 00:28:01,522 --> 00:28:04,902 But having those in-person connections, nothing beats that. 319 00:28:05,022 --> 00:28:09,362 I think it's great that we can stay connected online and through our different Bitcoin citadels. 320 00:28:09,362 --> 00:28:12,102 but bringing people together is super important. 321 00:28:12,382 --> 00:28:16,202 So it's awesome that you guys are looking to put that together again for next year. 322 00:28:17,442 --> 00:28:18,422 Yeah, thank you, John. 323 00:28:18,462 --> 00:28:19,182 I appreciate that. 324 00:28:19,282 --> 00:28:20,322 It was a pleasure having you. 325 00:28:23,442 --> 00:28:24,222 Shameless plug. 326 00:28:24,782 --> 00:28:25,522 Shameless plug. 327 00:28:25,822 --> 00:28:26,702 Wyatt's got to do it. 328 00:28:29,702 --> 00:28:32,182 If you're a financial professional working with Bitcoin, 329 00:28:32,182 --> 00:28:34,182 you know the pain of messy CSVs, 330 00:28:34,862 --> 00:28:39,182 broken cost basis and accounting tools that were never built for this asset. 331 00:28:39,362 --> 00:28:45,562 Bitment fixes that. Bitment is the Bitcoin-native accounting platform built for CPAs, bookkeepers, 332 00:28:45,782 --> 00:28:51,462 advisors, miners, and serious Bitcoin investors. You get clean Bitcoin bank statements, 333 00:28:51,782 --> 00:28:57,622 reliable cost basis tracking, full reporting, and fiat integration through Plaid. No crypto talk, 334 00:28:57,762 --> 00:29:01,122 no workarounds, just proper accounting for the hardest money on earth. 335 00:29:01,542 --> 00:29:04,802 Create a free account or book a demo at bitment.co today. 336 00:29:04,802 --> 00:29:15,222 I honestly want to potentially take the conversation to, you know, there's these rabbit holes, right, that you go down as a Bitcoiner. 337 00:29:15,222 --> 00:29:22,642 I know, Stu, I recall walking around, I can't remember what university, it was in Dallas. 338 00:29:22,902 --> 00:29:27,502 Anyways, it was at one of the mining conferences and we were on a Twitter space and you were on 339 00:29:27,502 --> 00:29:34,422 and you were kind of going down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin, how it fits into health and how a lot 340 00:29:34,422 --> 00:29:42,582 of Bitcoiners get down the path of like, okay, the money's broken. What else is broken? And I think 341 00:29:42,582 --> 00:29:48,282 for a lot of us. I talk with a lot of newer Bitcoiners like 2020, 2021 entrants, and it's 342 00:29:48,282 --> 00:29:56,682 like COVID kind of really shined the light on just brokenness across the board. But maybe speak about 343 00:29:56,682 --> 00:30:03,822 how you all view, I know what you all are terming kind of sound health and how that fits into, 344 00:30:04,282 --> 00:30:09,042 I guess, in the current stage of Bitcoiners life and how they need to focus on that. But then 345 00:30:09,042 --> 00:30:16,822 broadly, we could even broaden it out to like a lot of the healthcare is like sick care, right? 346 00:30:16,882 --> 00:30:21,842 It's just, it's not preventative and it's just like there's an emergency, we've got to act 347 00:30:21,842 --> 00:30:28,442 instead of how can we encourage people to be healthy just for health's sake and actually 348 00:30:28,442 --> 00:30:31,942 prevent a lot of this, a lot of the bad stuff that they end up dealing with. 349 00:30:33,482 --> 00:30:38,282 Really a few good questions there. And if you look at the, again, the history of the healthcare 350 00:30:38,282 --> 00:30:44,322 system in the U.S. I mean, there was a time when doctors made house calls and individuals paid for, 351 00:30:44,322 --> 00:30:50,542 you know, standard health needs with their doctor out of pocket. And you had maybe a major medical 352 00:30:50,542 --> 00:30:55,142 or catastrophic policy of some sort that would cover, you know, cover you and your family when 353 00:30:55,142 --> 00:31:00,722 something big happened. Right. And again, there's some great material out there. We have a lot of it 354 00:31:00,722 --> 00:31:05,342 on our website as we educate people about health care and why HSAs are so important. But over time, 355 00:31:05,342 --> 00:31:22,122 And again, with that bloat of spend that's increased from the $23 billion that we spent on health care in 1960 to the $5 trillion now, one of the big reasons that that happened was CMS came into law in the early 60s. 356 00:31:22,542 --> 00:31:35,102 And so if you look at the transference of who pays for health care, and there's some great infographics out there that show, you know, there's a lion's share of the percentage for everyday health services was paid for out of pocket in 1960. 357 00:31:35,342 --> 00:31:42,042 And then as that infographic goes live and evolves up to current day, you see, okay, we went from 23 billion to 5 trillion. 358 00:31:42,562 --> 00:31:45,062 And the individual now pays for just a little bit. 359 00:31:45,062 --> 00:31:51,822 And while we've done a lot of good for, you know, through Medicare and Medicaid and those services, this is not a political discussion or a statement. 360 00:31:51,962 --> 00:31:58,942 It's like, the fact is, we have placed the end consumer further away from the cost of care. 361 00:31:59,122 --> 00:32:05,322 And when you do that, we don't do that in any other marketplace that I can think of in the U.S., but we do it in health care. 362 00:32:05,342 --> 00:32:27,402 That is the number one reason we believe that why healthcare has grown in cost. Yes, people are getting older. Yes, people are living longer. Yes, we've innovated. We do the best research in the world, right? We have new pharmaceuticals and new medical device technologies that have enabled people to recover and live longer. That's all true and that's great and that needs to continue. 363 00:32:27,402 --> 00:32:34,142 but the reality is we spend way too much. And by the way, we have some of the poorest outcomes in 364 00:32:34,142 --> 00:32:38,882 the developed world for as much as we spend. What really attracted me when I got into Bitcoin, 365 00:32:39,982 --> 00:32:44,662 first of all, I noticed two things when I'd walk into the conference rooms, okay? Everyone was 366 00:32:44,662 --> 00:32:49,182 really intelligent, right? And I'd worked with neurosurgeons and orthospine surgeons like, 367 00:32:49,182 --> 00:32:53,862 in the operating suite with our teams, making sure they had great outcomes in surgery. 368 00:32:53,862 --> 00:32:58,602 but I noticed just the intellect that was in this industry, was in the Bitcoin industry. 369 00:32:59,042 --> 00:33:04,582 And I noticed something else, that most Bitcoiners were metabolically conscious. So what I mean by 370 00:33:04,582 --> 00:33:09,982 that, they were mindful of their wellness. So this concept of low time preference that we all know, 371 00:33:10,422 --> 00:33:17,902 I think is also, it plays into health as well. Thinking further out than the instant gratification 372 00:33:17,902 --> 00:33:24,402 of eating the next meal and indulging or overindulgence and just thinking about your 373 00:33:24,402 --> 00:33:29,402 family from a longer time horizon. And so we talk about sound money, sound health. 374 00:33:29,722 --> 00:33:34,782 We think that there's a lot of crossover in that ethos. And John has lived that out with his own 375 00:33:34,782 --> 00:33:39,422 personal journey. So I'm sure he could probably add to that. Yeah. Yeah. He said it really nicely, 376 00:33:39,562 --> 00:33:43,822 Stu. And I think for anyone going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and you start to question 377 00:33:43,822 --> 00:33:47,322 some of your own decisions and opportunity costs and what you're spending on and how 378 00:33:47,322 --> 00:33:52,962 your lifestyle looks day to day and really optimizing for your best health moving forward. 379 00:33:53,142 --> 00:33:56,982 You see folks and you look around the room at the Bitcoin conferences and like, oh, people are, 380 00:33:57,082 --> 00:34:01,062 we're taking care of ourselves. We care about the food that we're eating. It's real food. It's not 381 00:34:01,062 --> 00:34:06,782 fiat food. We're buying it with Bitcoin from our local rancher. All of these themes in Bitcoin 382 00:34:06,782 --> 00:34:13,142 that we've seen really, it plays out as you start to take more personal responsibility for 383 00:34:13,142 --> 00:34:20,541 for your health. And so for me, yoga was a big piece of my journey going down when I was studying 384 00:34:20,541 --> 00:34:24,162 Bitcoin and living in Bali for a couple of months doing the over teacher training, 385 00:34:24,842 --> 00:34:30,762 really tuning into my own breath, my own health and finding ways to heal that way. No one can stop 386 00:34:30,762 --> 00:34:34,962 you from doing that. I'm going inwards and focusing on just your breath and how are you 387 00:34:34,962 --> 00:34:39,322 moving throughout the day. And as I started connecting more and more with Bitcoiners, 388 00:34:39,322 --> 00:34:44,402 whether that was in El Salvador or in Costa Rica or in South Africa or Argentina. 389 00:34:44,862 --> 00:34:51,541 It's amazing how that Bitcoin ethos really connects folks globally and steers you towards 390 00:34:51,541 --> 00:34:56,501 really your highest path and fulfilling that personally and for your family. 391 00:34:56,682 --> 00:35:01,462 So I think by saving a little bit in Bitcoin and here in the US, we have the advantage now 392 00:35:01,462 --> 00:35:03,442 of having a triple tax advantage structure. 393 00:35:03,682 --> 00:35:08,262 But even if not, say you want to start putting inside some stats in a separate wallet for 394 00:35:08,262 --> 00:35:14,342 yourself that's in self-custody, we can enable that now through a mobile app. And so we're excited 395 00:35:14,342 --> 00:35:19,001 about other folks around the world that are just wanting to save some stats. And as Stu mentioned, 396 00:35:20,122 --> 00:35:24,382 the outcomes are very poor here in the US and we're the highest cost. So healthcare actually 397 00:35:24,382 --> 00:35:30,142 isn't as expensive in other places around the world. We don't have such perverse market incentives. 398 00:35:30,142 --> 00:35:35,501 There tends to be also a lot of government involvement in some places, but generally you 399 00:35:35,501 --> 00:35:41,362 can go and find a doctor direct and pay for much less for that service than you might pay here. 400 00:35:42,282 --> 00:35:47,142 So there's a lot of opportunities for education. And I think on the HSA, what's also interesting 401 00:35:47,142 --> 00:35:51,702 is you can spend out of it and support those types of habits, more of the preventative. 402 00:35:51,902 --> 00:35:56,922 Even now you can spend your HSA, while it's eligible, of course, at a hospital, a doctor's 403 00:35:56,922 --> 00:36:02,362 office, more veering towards the wellness side, whether it's blue light blockers or your beef, 404 00:36:02,362 --> 00:36:08,482 even. These are potentially eligible expenses on your HSA. Some of them might require what's 405 00:36:08,482 --> 00:36:12,782 called a letter of medical necessity from a doctor. But I think I know plenty of Bitcoin 406 00:36:12,782 --> 00:36:17,602 doctors who will probably be willing to write you a letter to eat your beef and health heal 407 00:36:17,602 --> 00:36:24,242 some of your maybe internal challenges from eating fiat food over time. So yeah, I think 408 00:36:24,242 --> 00:36:28,302 the money is broken and that's why healthcare is broken. A lot of downstream industries, 409 00:36:28,302 --> 00:36:34,001 in particular, the food, 60% of food being ultra processed that US consumers are eating. 410 00:36:34,462 --> 00:36:39,862 And that's driving the six in 10 individuals having a chronic condition, 80% being metabolically 411 00:36:39,862 --> 00:36:45,282 unhealthy, and one in three Americans in medical debt. So this healthcare really is something that 412 00:36:45,282 --> 00:36:50,602 I think Bitcoiners also shouldn't be ignoring. It makes sense that Bitcoin starts in financial 413 00:36:50,602 --> 00:36:56,622 services, in mining, the connection to energy, of course, but healthcare is 20% of the economy. 414 00:36:56,622 --> 00:37:24,982 And a quarter of that spend a year is administrative. Half of that is waste. Six to 10% of every transaction goes to a middleman. So there's so many middlemen all the way down the stack in healthcare that Bitcoin has an opportunity to disrupt. And so we're excited to be a part of that movement of really trying to decentralize healthcare and get more folks, particularly those that have business models that align with Bitcoin, where you're going direct to consumer and you're not relying on third party payment. 415 00:37:24,982 --> 00:37:48,222 You can integrate Bitcoin payments today and it isn't just a philosophical decision. You're going to save several percent in those transaction fees on a potentially very low margin business. It's difficult, right, to run, especially as you scale up and you have bigger and bigger health care systems, particularly here in Nashville and making those treasury decisions. 416 00:37:48,222 --> 00:37:52,902 That was a big theme, of course, for Bitcoin Financial Service Summit around treasury companies. 417 00:37:53,442 --> 00:37:56,061 But ultimately, it's companies that have bigger balance sheets. 418 00:37:56,462 --> 00:37:59,422 Many of these are nonprofit institutions as well. 419 00:37:59,782 --> 00:38:04,762 They really would be doing a public benefit by at least buying some Bitcoin and strengthening that institution. 420 00:38:05,442 --> 00:38:13,142 So there's a lot of aspects and ways that I think for the individual and for the company to think about bringing Bitcoin into healthcare. 421 00:38:13,142 --> 00:38:21,561 This episode is brought to you by Satoshi Pacioli, a full-service accounting and tax firm built for 422 00:38:21,561 --> 00:38:25,521 the Bitcoin economy. If you run a Bitcoin business, mine Bitcoin, or invest in it, 423 00:38:25,581 --> 00:38:30,122 you need advisors who actually understand how this industry works. Satoshi Pacioli handles 424 00:38:30,122 --> 00:38:34,602 bookkeeping, financial reporting, tax compliance, and strategic planning for Bitcoin-focused 425 00:38:34,602 --> 00:38:38,362 companies and individuals. They speak the language of Bitcoiners and help you stay 426 00:38:38,362 --> 00:38:42,782 compliant while building for the long term. To learn more or book consultation, visit 427 00:38:42,782 --> 00:38:50,722 satoshipacioli.com. Well, Stu, for one, I'm stoked to hear that Bitcoiners are smarter than doctors. 428 00:38:51,322 --> 00:38:54,302 So that made my day. Generally speaking. 429 00:38:57,242 --> 00:39:02,982 But you guys are absolutely like spot on. It's just like, yeah, I've tried to be a healthy person, 430 00:39:03,422 --> 00:39:07,501 health conscious, like all that stuff, but definitely way more after getting to Bitcoin. 431 00:39:07,501 --> 00:39:08,862 and some of like these health rabbit holes 432 00:39:08,862 --> 00:39:11,402 have been like some of my biggest endeavors, 433 00:39:11,402 --> 00:39:13,382 like, you know, outside of Bitcoin, 434 00:39:13,541 --> 00:39:15,541 you know, whether it's like fluorescent lights, 435 00:39:15,642 --> 00:39:17,541 like frying my eyeballs or, you know, 436 00:39:17,622 --> 00:39:19,501 seed oils, public enemy number two, 437 00:39:19,662 --> 00:39:21,202 you know, after fiat money. 438 00:39:21,202 --> 00:39:39,023 So when you guys like go to you know I don know I not sure what the like healthcare equivalent is We just call them like TradFi or like Normies But when you go to like the standard you know healthcare providers and you start talking about you know SoundHealth and how you guys are integrating Bitcoin in your business and how Bitcoin is aligned with you know healthy lifestyle 439 00:39:39,222 --> 00:39:44,202 Do they look at you like you're crazy or are you starting to get like some positive reception? 440 00:39:44,202 --> 00:39:53,942 Because at least from the outside looking in, it feels like there's so many blinders in the healthcare industry where they just like miss things that seem fairly obvious to an outsider. 441 00:39:54,942 --> 00:40:03,462 Yeah, I guess the cheat code to that is, you know, there's a growing number of Bitcoin companies in the U.S. that have chosen to add Bitcoin to their balance sheet. 442 00:40:03,462 --> 00:40:23,102 And that's low hanging fruit for us, right? Someone in that company high up leadership, the board understands the power of Bitcoin as a savings technology for the company. So, you know, we look at that as an opportunity to get into this discussion of the implications of Bitcoin and health broadly. 443 00:40:23,823 --> 00:40:28,143 And I think something else that they'll find too, and kind of is consistent with what we've 444 00:40:28,143 --> 00:40:32,363 been talking about in the last few minutes is, you know, one of the big differentiations 445 00:40:32,363 --> 00:40:37,802 of our platforms is, yes, we have a walled garden regulated HSA product and it's awesome. 446 00:40:38,123 --> 00:40:43,202 And the user experience will be great, but we're really a health and wellness platform 447 00:40:43,202 --> 00:40:43,802 as well. 448 00:40:43,903 --> 00:40:46,002 And no other HSA company can offer that. 449 00:40:46,182 --> 00:40:47,422 Fidelity is not going to do that. 450 00:40:47,582 --> 00:40:50,623 Optin is not going to do that, like through their HSA product, right? 451 00:40:50,623 --> 00:40:54,742 So it was really important to us to like, okay, we can't just talk about the connection of sound 452 00:40:54,742 --> 00:40:59,662 health and sound money. We got to live and breathe that. And so the move to earn piece, 453 00:40:59,742 --> 00:41:04,123 there'll be some other enhancements and innovation that'll come onto the platform as we move forward 454 00:41:04,123 --> 00:41:09,662 that we're really excited about. But we really believe that this can be one platform that can 455 00:41:09,662 --> 00:41:15,662 satisfy this move towards decentralized sovereign health and wellness. And employers, 456 00:41:15,662 --> 00:41:17,883 Bitcoin employers 457 00:41:17,883 --> 00:41:19,643 and even 458 00:41:19,643 --> 00:41:21,682 companies that don't. They're looking 459 00:41:21,682 --> 00:41:23,762 for ways in the conversations we 460 00:41:23,762 --> 00:41:25,363 have, they're looking for ways to either 461 00:41:25,363 --> 00:41:27,403 start a wellness initiative 462 00:41:27,403 --> 00:41:29,663 or enhance 463 00:41:29,663 --> 00:41:31,363 what they currently do. 464 00:41:31,702 --> 00:41:33,242 They may offer a gym membership 465 00:41:33,242 --> 00:41:35,602 reimbursement as a health 466 00:41:35,602 --> 00:41:37,742 benefit as a company. Well, we think 467 00:41:37,742 --> 00:41:39,482 we have something that's really compelling 468 00:41:39,482 --> 00:41:41,802 compared to that. And so we'll continue 469 00:41:41,802 --> 00:41:43,982 to innovate in that way to be attractive 470 00:41:43,982 --> 00:41:44,602 to employees. 471 00:41:44,602 --> 00:41:49,942 so yeah and i would add to that widen your question as we've gone to a couple of healthcare 472 00:41:49,942 --> 00:41:55,043 conferences and interacted with folks that are advisors and employer benefit space uh whether 473 00:41:55,043 --> 00:41:59,343 that's at health rosetta or through free market medical association these organizations were a 474 00:41:59,343 --> 00:42:04,082 part of and participating in and as we present bitcoin and talk about what we're what we're 475 00:42:04,082 --> 00:42:08,543 bringing we don't get looks of oh you're crazy it's like oh i just hadn't thought about that 476 00:42:08,543 --> 00:42:13,482 that makes sense like let's talk about it we want to learn and hear more about how bitcoin works so 477 00:42:13,482 --> 00:42:16,663 I think bringing some of that Bitcoin 101 to that audience is important. 478 00:42:17,163 --> 00:42:18,123 And they're open to learning. 479 00:42:18,262 --> 00:42:20,722 And we're approaching now 17 years of Bitcoin being around. 480 00:42:20,722 --> 00:42:25,363 And at this point, people have obviously had plenty of exposure, at least through headlines. 481 00:42:25,623 --> 00:42:28,422 And it's only so long that you can continue to ignore it. 482 00:42:28,582 --> 00:42:33,202 And we're now offering, we think, a pretty streamlined way of learning about Bitcoin, 483 00:42:33,383 --> 00:42:36,602 getting into Bitcoin, maybe for those that still think Bitcoin is risky. 484 00:42:37,082 --> 00:42:40,123 Whereas we have a conviction and realize not thinking Bitcoin is risky. 485 00:42:40,123 --> 00:42:42,242 if you think Bitcoin is risky. 486 00:42:42,643 --> 00:42:44,883 Well, here's a way that you don't have to pay taxes 487 00:42:44,883 --> 00:42:48,023 on the Bitcoin performance and what's happening here. 488 00:42:48,343 --> 00:42:50,082 And maybe your balance is a little lower, right? 489 00:42:50,082 --> 00:42:52,863 The average HSA balance in general is about $5,000. 490 00:42:53,343 --> 00:42:57,543 The average invested HSA balance is $20,000 to $30,000. 491 00:42:58,402 --> 00:43:03,143 But over less than half, about $70 to $75 billion 492 00:43:03,143 --> 00:43:06,682 out of the $160 billion that is held in HSAs 493 00:43:06,682 --> 00:43:09,863 is actually invested in stocks or other assets. 494 00:43:10,123 --> 00:43:27,023 Most of that is sitting in cash, right? So that's a melting ice cloud, folks, where, oh, I think I'm saving my HSA, I'm doing the right thing. But ultimately, if the government, as they're going to continue and the Fed continues to print more money, that savings, that purchasing power will continue to debase over time, right? It's just math. 495 00:43:27,023 --> 00:43:38,523 As you understand Bitcoin, you realize, oh, hey, maybe I'm not really optimizing my HSAs as well as I could or my whole health care stack as a whole and how I'm approaching the market and taking care of ourselves. 496 00:43:38,523 --> 00:43:49,623 But, yeah, I think definitely less crazy looks and more opportunities, we think, in 2026 to bring those different folks together and show because there are many doctors out there. 497 00:43:49,623 --> 00:44:16,742 And actually another something else that we're bringing out is a nonprofit led by Dr. Mark Stephanie out of Minnesota that we're supporting the Bitcoin Physicians Network. So really through this network, we believe it's a 501c6 out of Minnesota being a platform for doctors, physicians to connect Bitcoin docs, whether you have your own practice or your Bitcoin doc working in a bigger system to network with one another, educate and advocate for more Bitcoin adoption in health care. 498 00:44:16,742 --> 00:44:19,883 We think we're coming out with a map. 499 00:44:20,282 --> 00:44:23,823 So kind of like beef maps, you can locate your local rancher. 500 00:44:24,143 --> 00:44:25,902 Where can I find my Bitcoin doctor? 501 00:44:26,482 --> 00:44:41,702 So providing more of those types of services and just being out there for people to see that it's a growing movement, whether it's in dentistry or direct primary care, specialty care, surgery, moving more and more of these businesses with merchant adoption onto Bitcoin. 502 00:44:41,702 --> 00:44:43,962 and then ultimately coming with the consumer of, 503 00:44:44,143 --> 00:44:46,742 hey, I have Bitcoin saved to spend for whatever I need. 504 00:44:46,742 --> 00:44:49,823 Yeah, the Bitcoin Physicians Network 505 00:44:49,823 --> 00:44:53,502 will be for physicians and other healthcare folks as well 506 00:44:53,502 --> 00:44:55,202 as that's built out. 507 00:44:55,823 --> 00:44:56,962 You have to understand too, 508 00:44:57,043 --> 00:44:59,702 there's a big percentage of the healthcare industry, 509 00:44:59,982 --> 00:45:02,422 those that work in the industry as providers or support, 510 00:45:02,942 --> 00:45:03,863 they're burnt out. 511 00:45:04,343 --> 00:45:06,383 They're looking for, they know the system is broken. 512 00:45:06,782 --> 00:45:08,543 And we hope that this nonprofit, 513 00:45:09,823 --> 00:45:11,343 physician led, right? 514 00:45:11,702 --> 00:45:19,222 will be a resource in a number of ways for physicians and advanced practitioners to learn 515 00:45:19,222 --> 00:45:23,643 about Bitcoin. Maybe if they've hung their own shingle, they've opened their own practice. Maybe 516 00:45:23,643 --> 00:45:30,602 there's treasury management resources there, all kinds of things. And there are a large number of 517 00:45:30,602 --> 00:45:36,363 physicians that hold Bitcoin. You may not know it, but there are. And so we felt it was the time to 518 00:45:36,363 --> 00:45:41,182 launch something like that to really coalesce that segment of the market. 519 00:45:41,962 --> 00:45:43,343 So no, I love it. 520 00:45:43,462 --> 00:45:46,422 And I want to pivot, you know, we've got a few minutes left. 521 00:45:46,523 --> 00:45:49,523 I want to talk about what does the launch look like? 522 00:45:49,702 --> 00:45:55,602 And a couple of specific questions that come to mind that, you know, Bitcoiners, I'd be 523 00:45:55,602 --> 00:45:56,883 remiss if I didn't ask, right? 524 00:45:56,902 --> 00:45:59,502 Just because they're very, they're very in the weeds type of people. 525 00:45:59,502 --> 00:46:17,143 So two questions. First one would be, can you contribute Bitcoin in or do you have to contribute dollars in and convert it once it's inside? And then the second question is maybe touch a little bit more on the back end custody. 526 00:46:17,143 --> 00:46:21,563 I know that's a question that Wyatt and I get all the time from Bitcoiners. 527 00:46:21,702 --> 00:46:26,942 It's like, okay, I'm going to look into doing this product, be it a loan or whatever it might be, right? 528 00:46:26,942 --> 00:46:41,163 Where I'm having to post Bitcoin out of my cold storage and potentially bring in a trust, some kind of trust inside of that in order to be more efficient from a tax standpoint or cap gains, whatever it looks like. 529 00:46:41,163 --> 00:46:46,722 So maybe touch on that and then also just, yeah, let us know what is the launch looking like? 530 00:46:47,143 --> 00:46:54,863 for 2026. I can speak to kind of the cash in, Bitcoin in question. So under current law, 531 00:46:55,002 --> 00:46:59,663 you can only fund the account with cash, right? So you fund your account with cash, you buy Bitcoin 532 00:46:59,663 --> 00:47:05,883 within the account, and then you have to spend cash out. We hope over time that we can be the 533 00:47:05,883 --> 00:47:12,002 first product to actually enable Bitcoin spend directly out of the account, right? Because if 534 00:47:12,002 --> 00:47:17,702 think about it, there's never been a commodity or an asset, an equity that you could take to a 535 00:47:17,702 --> 00:47:20,942 provider that they would accept as payment. So it's really kind of been a non-starter. 536 00:47:21,602 --> 00:47:29,163 But as the network of physicians and providers expands that accept Bitcoin, we think there's 537 00:47:29,163 --> 00:47:34,823 going to be an opportunity where over time, our customers can spend directly out of the account 538 00:47:34,823 --> 00:47:41,902 in Bitcoin. But right now, it's cash in by Bitcoin, sell your Bitcoin, cash out to reimburse 539 00:47:41,902 --> 00:47:46,502 your expense. But if you want to speak to kind of the custody arrangement. 540 00:47:46,942 --> 00:47:52,343 Yeah. And then when you direct the investment over into Bitcoin, our partner Digital Trust, 541 00:47:52,482 --> 00:47:57,382 they're actually the company behind Bitcoin IRA.com that's been on the market for almost a decade. 542 00:47:57,502 --> 00:48:02,502 Many may be familiar with that brand. And so they're already very familiar and have 543 00:48:02,502 --> 00:48:07,582 existing relationship as well with BitGo, as I mentioned, for where the Bitcoin is 544 00:48:07,582 --> 00:48:15,582 being custody. And so BitGo has multi-state cold storage set up at an individual user level. So it's 545 00:48:16,262 --> 00:48:21,563 a sub-account kind of set up technically when you look at the structure of how HSAs are structured, 546 00:48:22,102 --> 00:48:26,462 but it's through Horizon Trust and Digital Trust ultimately and having those rails set up 547 00:48:26,462 --> 00:48:32,063 that can streamline our process of individuals getting Bitcoin within the HSA. So as Stu mentioned, 548 00:48:32,063 --> 00:48:38,962 fiat in, buy some Bitcoin and HODL. We think spending out of it in Bitcoin eventually will 549 00:48:38,962 --> 00:48:43,262 really help spur this circular economy in healthcare. That'll continue to get built out 550 00:48:43,262 --> 00:48:50,563 over time. Yeah, we're excited to come to market with that setup and feel free to join the waitlist. 551 00:48:50,643 --> 00:48:55,323 We'll be working through the waitlist here in January and gearing up for a bigger public launch 552 00:48:55,323 --> 00:49:00,602 as we continue to test the rails and our front-end product. So we're really excited about 553 00:49:00,602 --> 00:49:05,582 this opportunity standing this up this year and seeing where it can grow into the future. 554 00:49:05,702 --> 00:49:10,043 As we mentioned, it's a big marketplace and it's going to be a matter of kind of demonstrating 555 00:49:10,043 --> 00:49:11,043 the value as well. 556 00:49:11,123 --> 00:49:16,942 As you mentioned, your customers, your clients, the CFA, CPAs are asking the right questions. 557 00:49:16,942 --> 00:49:21,863 It's really important to know that this is real Bitcoin, where it's sitting and what 558 00:49:21,863 --> 00:49:24,202 the arrangement is moving forward. 559 00:49:24,343 --> 00:49:27,402 And so we'd love to work with more CFAs and CPAs like yourself. 560 00:49:27,402 --> 00:49:34,643 We're looking for more ways to save tax advantage stats and how that can fit into an individual and family portfolio. 561 00:49:35,602 --> 00:49:36,262 Yeah, absolutely. 562 00:49:36,523 --> 00:49:43,843 I mean, even earlier today, I woke up with like a crick in my back on Tuesday and I got into the chiropractor today. 563 00:49:44,163 --> 00:49:48,462 And I'm always just a cash pay guy because self-employed, you know, that's a whole nother rabbit hole. 564 00:49:48,563 --> 00:49:50,683 Just health insurance is so broken. 565 00:49:51,323 --> 00:49:56,222 So I ended up just basically paying for a lot of things out of pocket and then doing what you guys are recommending. 566 00:49:56,222 --> 00:50:03,663 And I can't wait to move my HSA from hsabank.com to Sound HSA, you know, immediately, basically. 567 00:50:03,882 --> 00:50:07,163 So really appreciate you all coming on. 568 00:50:07,402 --> 00:50:14,262 It's been really amazing to watch you all build the company and get user feedback and the steps piece. 569 00:50:14,402 --> 00:50:17,302 I mean, I know for I can imagine a world, right, where it's like an employer. 570 00:50:17,302 --> 00:50:25,262 They've got Bitcoin on the balance sheet and they're paying direct out to their employees as they hit certain milestones from a health journey standpoint. 571 00:50:25,262 --> 00:50:27,623 So super excited about all of that. 572 00:50:28,023 --> 00:50:34,962 Wyatt, any closing thoughts from you all before we let them kind of let us know where they can find, everyone can find them? 573 00:50:36,002 --> 00:50:39,502 Yeah, I just want to express my gratitude for what you guys are doing. 574 00:50:39,843 --> 00:50:50,922 You know, just sitting in our role as kind of advisor piece, like we rely on entrepreneurs like yourself to make our job easier and develop your products within the Bitcoin ecosystem. 575 00:50:50,922 --> 00:50:52,942 So keep up the good work, gentlemen. 576 00:50:53,123 --> 00:50:55,343 It is fantastic to watch the ride. 577 00:50:56,702 --> 00:50:57,323 Thank you. 578 00:50:57,363 --> 00:50:58,222 It's been a fun journey. 579 00:50:58,462 --> 00:51:03,402 And the team has done just a fantastic job to sprint to where we are today. 580 00:51:03,762 --> 00:51:05,762 And so, yeah, more to come for sure. 581 00:51:05,922 --> 00:51:07,183 We're excited about the journey. 582 00:51:08,183 --> 00:51:09,282 Yeah, I really appreciate y'all. 583 00:51:09,602 --> 00:51:14,702 And check out soundhsa.com and join the waitlist and get ready to join. 584 00:51:14,922 --> 00:51:18,363 You can also download the mobile app in iOS or Android. 585 00:51:18,363 --> 00:51:21,363 and check us out, X, Noster, LinkedIn, 586 00:51:21,623 --> 00:51:23,002 I'd say are going to be the main channels. 587 00:51:23,202 --> 00:51:24,502 We're posting some updates 588 00:51:24,502 --> 00:51:25,782 and keeping in touch with folks, 589 00:51:25,782 --> 00:51:28,262 but feel free to reach out anytime. 590 00:51:28,982 --> 00:51:30,402 Looking forward to connecting with you all. 591 00:51:31,063 --> 00:51:31,382 Beautiful. 592 00:51:31,922 --> 00:51:32,183 All right. 593 00:51:32,202 --> 00:51:33,563 Well, thanks again, John and Stu. 594 00:51:33,802 --> 00:51:35,082 And yeah, we will keep tabs. 595 00:51:35,202 --> 00:51:37,282 Hopefully I would love to bring you guys on, 596 00:51:37,343 --> 00:51:38,602 you know, maybe into first quarter 597 00:51:38,602 --> 00:51:40,643 and give an update on where everything stands. 598 00:51:40,742 --> 00:51:41,802 So thanks so much. 599 00:51:41,843 --> 00:51:42,482 And we'll talk to you all soon. 600 00:51:42,543 --> 00:51:42,663 Okay. 601 00:51:43,422 --> 00:51:43,843 All right, guys. 602 00:51:43,843 --> 00:51:44,262 Thank you. 603 00:51:48,363 --> 00:51:50,982 We appreciate you joining us. 604 00:51:50,982 --> 00:52:01,323 If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin in financial services, hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, and share this with someone in your network who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice. 605 00:52:01,742 --> 00:52:06,742 The more professionals we reach, the stronger this ecosystem becomes and our clients are better served. 606 00:52:07,082 --> 00:52:10,043 Stay sharp, stay sovereign, and keep leading from the front. 607 00:52:18,363 --> 00:52:31,363 to be better than it is. 608 00:52:32,163 --> 00:52:32,242 Yeah, perhaps. 609 00:52:32,242 --> 00:52:32,802 Yeah, maybe.