1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,060 This is World Life Unschooling with my mom. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:09,900 Very good, very good. 3 00:00:10,300 --> 00:00:11,240 Okay, perfect. 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:20,460 So, what I sometimes hear from unschooling, homeschooling families is that they do all 5 00:00:20,460 --> 00:00:25,180 these things at home by themselves and they are saving the system so much money and yet 6 00:00:25,180 --> 00:00:31,300 there is almost no support from the government, from the state or any kind of, I don't know, 7 00:00:31,380 --> 00:00:36,080 authority. I mean, a lot of homeschooling, unschooling people like it that way. But I 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:41,160 think a lot of families out there could use a hand, especially when it comes to finance. 9 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:46,460 And this is why I'm very, very happy that you are here with me, Shaka Mitchell, because you're 10 00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:52,440 doing exactly that. You are going out there and you are fighting for the rights of free schooling 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,140 or alternative education-directed families. 12 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,480 And I will read what you're doing 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,800 because you're doing so much. 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,060 I really tried to learn and to reproduce it from memory, 15 00:01:07,220 --> 00:01:08,340 but it is impossible. 16 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:09,420 So you're a lawyer, 17 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:12,900 senior fellow at the American Federation for Children, 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,140 Aspen Institute civil society fellow, 19 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:16,720 TEDx Nashville speaker, 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,700 advisor to the Journal of Law and Policy at Wake Forest, 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,020 and so much more. 22 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:25,420 I think you have a podcast, you're a father, what else? 23 00:01:25,660 --> 00:01:28,180 You're a husband, you're so many things. 24 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:31,800 And I'm very, very happy that you're here with me. 25 00:01:32,500 --> 00:01:33,880 Well, thanks for having me on, Alex. 26 00:01:33,980 --> 00:01:35,400 I look forward to our conversation. 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,380 Yeah, when you read that bio, it makes me feel exhausted. 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:41,840 Me too. 29 00:01:41,980 --> 00:01:44,520 I need to maybe give up a few things. 30 00:01:44,820 --> 00:01:45,880 No, don't do that, please. 31 00:01:45,940 --> 00:01:47,420 Because I really, I am inspired. 32 00:01:47,420 --> 00:01:53,080 I don't know how you find the time and energy to do all of these things, but I think it's really awesome. 33 00:01:54,260 --> 00:02:01,300 So you are here today because you really want to change something in education, especially for self-directed learning families. 34 00:02:01,780 --> 00:02:08,420 And you invest all your time and energy into really, yeah, looking out for these families. 35 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:15,000 And on a broader context, maybe you can summarize what are you doing? 36 00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:16,280 Sure, sure. 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:29,500 So as you mentioned, I'm a senior fellow at the American Federation for Children, and we are a U.S.-based nonprofit organization, and we're really an advocacy organization. 38 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:38,520 Our mission is to sort of fight for what we would call school choice or educational choice or educational freedom, whatever you like. 39 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:58,760 But our mission is to make sure that all children have meaningful access to the education of best fit for them, especially children from families who are lower income or have historically lacked options and access to options. 40 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:07,260 But what we do is we work with state lawmakers, primarily state lawmakers, but increasingly some at the federal level also. 41 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:19,360 And we work with them to pass laws that allow parents to make the decision to send their kids to a different school and to receive public funding for it. 42 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:20,760 So those two things go together. 43 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:30,480 So when I talk about meaningful access, I don't just mean, as you mentioned in your introduction, I don't just mean the right to homeschool your child. 44 00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:34,700 That right has existed. I would say that's the first form of education. 45 00:03:35,580 --> 00:03:39,320 That right feels akin to just a natural right. 46 00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:44,520 We really think that resources ought to follow that. 47 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,300 And so I think we'll talk more about that. 48 00:03:46,300 --> 00:04:10,300 But that's our mission. And we've worked in, you know, more than half the states around the country. And now I'm pleased to say that there are 32 states with private choice programs so that allow you to get some sort of public resources to use them to make the decision to send your child to a participate in some sort of private school. 49 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:12,440 I should say non-public school, right? 50 00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:17,100 Because it might be private, it might be homeschool, it might be a co-op, unschool, what have you. 51 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:18,880 So 32 states now. 52 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,040 And I think that number is going to continue to grow. 53 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:23,480 Really nice. 54 00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:25,900 How did you end up doing what you're doing? 55 00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:31,140 Because I don't think that one day you woke up and you were like, oh, my God, this is what I'm going to do. 56 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:43,800 I mean, you're a father and maybe there is a connection between having kids, seeing them grow up and realizing and experiencing self and what education might look like if you are open minded. 57 00:04:44,740 --> 00:04:50,120 Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think all of us has some sort of education story, right? 58 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:57,760 Because we were all we were all children at some point. And so in some cases, that's a really positive story. 59 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:14,100 In some cases, it's one that we wish we could do over. In my case, I attended both private schools and Catholic schools when I was a kid, but then I also attended a really large public high school in different parts of the country. 60 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:22,800 And so I would say that that was really the first thing that informed how I think about education is that I saw the I saw two systems. 61 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,640 I saw I would say I saw the the primary forms of school choice firsthand. 62 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:36,260 The first one is that parents pay out of pocket if their local school, if their zoned government school is not working for them. 63 00:05:36,260 --> 00:05:43,120 So my parents, you know, paid out of pocket and we didn't have a lot of money and we were working class family with four kids. 64 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,440 So that's not an easy thing to do for many families. 65 00:05:48,660 --> 00:05:50,700 So that's one form of school choice, paying. 66 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,220 The other form of school choice, which we then did, is we moved. 67 00:05:54,380 --> 00:06:00,580 So we moved to a different part of the country and we found better schools that were public schools. 68 00:06:01,180 --> 00:06:04,300 And so that works for many people. 69 00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:09,620 But what about the thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of kids that it doesn't work for? 70 00:06:09,620 --> 00:06:28,060 And then to your point, I am a father and I have three daughters and try as we might, we have yet to find the one system that works exactly best for all three of them simultaneously. 71 00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:30,480 And that's not just education, that's parenting. 72 00:06:31,540 --> 00:06:37,760 The same incentives do not work for every child, even within the same household. 73 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:45,100 So why would we expect the same educational system to work for 55 million students? 74 00:06:45,220 --> 00:06:46,500 That's what we have in the United States. 75 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:52,480 In my city where I live, you're talking about 100,000 students. 76 00:06:52,740 --> 00:07:04,840 Why would we expect one system with a board of directors of nine people to be able to figure out how to deliver the best education for 100,000 students? 77 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:07,860 It's just, I think it's irrational, frankly. 78 00:07:08,260 --> 00:07:14,300 And so it drives me to seek choices and options that work for everybody. 79 00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:16,000 That's pretty nice. 80 00:07:16,540 --> 00:07:20,520 This one size fits all thing. 81 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:22,620 I'm a teacher myself. 82 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:29,400 And I think I worked in my job for six or eight hours, not even two days, because I couldn't do it. 83 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,040 I mean, I was only teaching German as a foreign language. 84 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:43,200 It's not that hard. But to see like 20 different faces looking at me and I try to serve them all. 85 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:46,760 It's impossible. And as a teacher, how can you do it? 86 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,660 I couldn't go home and be like, oh, what a lovely day. 87 00:07:50,180 --> 00:07:52,140 I couldn't. It's impossible. 88 00:07:52,660 --> 00:08:00,040 So I think it's frustrating on so many ends, not only for the kids and parents, but for the teachers as well. 89 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:07,900 So yeah, before we started that podcast, we had a short call and you said something that 90 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:08,800 stuck with me. 91 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:13,840 You said the well-worn paths may not be working anymore. 92 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:20,440 And I feel that because my parents always told me, you are not going to have a calculator 93 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,700 in your hand 24-7 later. 94 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,800 And it wasn't even five years later and I had my first mobile phone, these kind of things. 95 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:33,760 And now people tell me, because my son is not going to school, oh, he's going to miss out on so many information. 96 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,000 But we have an overflow of information. 97 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,000 Nobody can memorize everything. 98 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,420 And with one click, you have everything on hand. 99 00:08:41,780 --> 00:08:52,180 So maybe it's not about memorizing all these different things anymore, but it's maybe becoming a different task to make kids bulletproof for the future. 100 00:08:52,180 --> 00:08:58,060 and i don't know maybe you want to talk a little bit about that because i found that quite 101 00:08:58,060 --> 00:09:06,860 interesting yeah well i think that for many people many adults there is a lot of nostalgia 102 00:09:06,860 --> 00:09:15,420 that surrounds the education system right if you were to ask if you were to ask young adults 103 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:22,440 19, 20 year olds, what did you think of your education process? They would, most of them would 104 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:30,440 have medium to negative perceptions. If you fast forward and you ask them 25, 30 years later, 105 00:09:30,620 --> 00:09:37,240 suddenly it was much better. Right now, some of that may just be the wisdom that comes with time 106 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,460 and temperamentally things are a little bit different. I'm sure that's a piece of it, 107 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:45,220 but honestly, I think a lot of it is just nostalgia because what do we all do as adults? 108 00:09:45,220 --> 00:09:48,500 I'm sure that you do it some, even try as we might. 109 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,800 Haven't you heard yourself saying those things that you heard as a parent? 110 00:09:53,060 --> 00:09:57,100 Like, well, back in my day, we used to do it this way. 111 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,800 And we assume that that's the right way to do it, you know? 112 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:06,100 And if we were still doing that, then my kids would still be talking on phones that had cords that attached to the wall. 113 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,700 And we'd be like tripping over ourselves to do that. 114 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:16,340 you know, there would be, we would never have, we'd never have the ability to order something 115 00:10:16,340 --> 00:10:20,860 and have it shipped the next day to us or within the week because things would take forever. 116 00:10:21,660 --> 00:10:29,820 You know, time marches on and methods change, practices change. It doesn't reduce the value 117 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:37,860 of education, but I think we do our kids a disservice if we think that sitting in rows 118 00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:45,800 and having direct instruction for 180 days out of a 365-day calendar, 119 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:48,620 that that's the only way that kids can learn. 120 00:10:48,820 --> 00:10:51,720 It's just such a static way of doing things. 121 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,780 And it's a static way of thinking when there are so many more resources now 122 00:10:56,780 --> 00:10:58,720 available to parents and to families. 123 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:04,020 And I think, you know, tragic as it was the time, you know, 124 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,320 sort of the height of COVID, 125 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,480 I think it really opened a lot of people's eyes to, okay, there's some other things that we can do. 126 00:11:11,620 --> 00:11:19,200 I mean, at least where I live, the switch to remote learning on a dime didn't go so well. 127 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,400 But I would say that's because people weren't ready. 128 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:22,020 They weren't trained. 129 00:11:22,180 --> 00:11:24,420 They weren't skilled in doing it. 130 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,700 But what have we seen since then? 131 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:33,700 Since then, you've now seen schools start to integrate some of these methods and say, well, maybe we can do some things. 132 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:45,540 Maybe we can do things in the summertime. Maybe we can have learning experiences at different times of year so that we're not so tethered to this fixed calendar. 133 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:54,520 And I just think that if we are in a fixed mindset, as I mentioned, it does a disservice to our kids. 134 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,840 It doesn't appreciate the diversity among learners that exists. 135 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:05,720 and then of course what what should we expect we should expect negative outcomes because half the 136 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:13,240 kids might be sitting there bored you know that that system does work for some students the problem 137 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:19,340 is it's a very narrow band of students and so what about the ones on you know on either side of that 138 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:26,840 right i kind of joke that the at least where i live the public school system tends to be really 139 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:33,620 good for like 50th percentile girls. The problem is that most people are not that. 140 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,340 That's not a, I don't know that that's a problem. It's just, it's just fact. It is what it is. So if 141 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:43,500 you're, if you're a 50th percentile, right, exactly average, whatever that would mean, 142 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:51,220 exactly average female student, you tend to do all right. What about everybody who's not? What 143 00:12:51,220 --> 00:12:55,820 if you're plus or minus that? What if you're, you know, what if you happen to not be born that way? 144 00:12:55,820 --> 00:12:59,740 So, um, we have to get out of the box. 145 00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:04,820 I mean, which I know you're doing and it's a really brave thing, I think. 146 00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:08,420 And a lot of your audience, I think is, has taken those steps. 147 00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:11,940 Um, but yeah, the question is how do you do it? 148 00:13:11,940 --> 00:13:14,060 What are the opportunity costs as well? 149 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,860 Um, and that's something that we think about a lot at AFC as well. 150 00:13:19,580 --> 00:13:21,300 That's there's an opportunity cost to that. 151 00:13:22,780 --> 00:13:23,320 That's true. 152 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:29,500 I think it's very interesting that everything is progressing in our lives. 153 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,080 Like everything is like so futuristic. 154 00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:35,600 Our fridges are talking to us and all these things. 155 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,340 But school is still the same. 156 00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:39,640 It is in my mind. 157 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,780 I cannot digest this. 158 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,300 Really crazy. 159 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,460 I want to know more a bit about your work. 160 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:53,680 because I'm far from understanding how lawyers work 161 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,960 and all these magical things happening in the background of, you know, 162 00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,140 what I'm not doing. 163 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,720 So maybe we can talk about what does it mean to pass a law 164 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,620 or to work in this realm of laws and I don't know, 165 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,060 how to handle all of these information and things. 166 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:17,480 For me, it looks always like, you know, when you look at a very messy table, 167 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:26,360 this is how i uh envision what law is like so many different things you have to organize that 168 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:33,520 has to go together so many different compartments that are connected and so many different people 169 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:40,120 and you have to be really on top of everything to go through and to be able to pass a law 170 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:49,540 Yeah, well, I think you identify lots of the component parts that make it a tricky thing. 171 00:14:50,420 --> 00:14:59,460 We have been fortunate to have relationships with many legislators that help get it done, but I'll back up a little bit. 172 00:14:59,460 --> 00:15:12,520 Because I think one of the things that undergirds the whole process, at least in the U.S., where I'm based, is that for us, education is really a state-level function. 173 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,620 In the United States Constitution, there is no education clause. 174 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:19,840 Education is not mentioned. 175 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,040 So we talk about other rights, but education is not one of them. 176 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,420 Schooling is not one of them in the federal constitution. 177 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:51,260 That being said, all 50 states have an education provision and have an education clause. And so, you know, they can differ. They certainly do differ. Some of them are really minimal. Florida would be one of those. It has a sort of, you know, less language around that. 178 00:15:51,260 --> 00:16:11,018 Some of them are much more extensive Kentucky is kind of like that But the language often says something to the effect of that the state will establish a system of free schools or maybe uniform schools or thorough and efficient schools something like that 179 00:16:11,098 --> 00:16:15,638 And it's incumbent on the state to provide that. 180 00:16:16,538 --> 00:16:21,258 So that's the first thing to know is that this is a state function, at least in the U.S. 181 00:16:22,718 --> 00:16:28,518 Now, state constitutions don't necessarily say who's going to pay for it. 182 00:16:29,518 --> 00:16:52,338 Or how, rather. I mean, I guess it is implied that if the state's going to provide it, the state's going to pay for it. But whether that's through property taxes or income taxes or taxes on goods and services, whatever, sales tax, that's left up to legislatures, so to the state lawmakers. 183 00:16:52,338 --> 00:17:11,858 Um, it also, the state constitutions don't say that this is the only way that education can be provided. Right. So what, what I would say, and what most courts have decided is that those state constitutions, they set a floor, not a ceiling. 184 00:17:11,858 --> 00:17:21,438 so they set a floor and they say okay baseline base level the state has to provide uh a a 185 00:17:21,438 --> 00:17:28,478 uniform system of schools okay well that's a that's a baseline that doesn't say anything about 186 00:17:28,478 --> 00:17:33,998 outcomes all it says is something about them has to be uniform and often the thing that ends up 187 00:17:33,998 --> 00:17:40,678 being uniform is that they're governed by the same group of people like a state board of education 188 00:17:40,678 --> 00:17:45,758 or the thing that's uniform about them is that they're funded the same way. 189 00:17:45,758 --> 00:17:49,218 They're funded through usually in the States, it's property taxes. 190 00:17:49,978 --> 00:17:51,358 And that makes it uniform. 191 00:17:51,678 --> 00:17:53,718 But this has nothing of quality. 192 00:17:54,018 --> 00:17:55,898 This has nothing of student outcomes. 193 00:17:56,358 --> 00:18:01,178 This has nothing of, you know, what are our hopes for the students when they finish? 194 00:18:02,998 --> 00:18:08,858 So that's where the rubber really meets the road is we kind of come in in a gap. 195 00:18:08,858 --> 00:18:14,618 when you're thinking about education policy and what we do with laws is we say all right great we 196 00:18:14,618 --> 00:18:22,058 you've got this system of education and it's supposed to be thorough and efficient well good 197 00:18:22,058 --> 00:18:30,058 luck um it's supposed to be uniform even that is a difficult thing to do right um and say all right 198 00:18:30,058 --> 00:18:35,018 we're doing that and but the question is really what else can we do what else ought we to do 199 00:18:35,018 --> 00:18:41,198 because the goal shouldn't be to serve the system. 200 00:18:41,198 --> 00:18:43,278 It should be to make sure students are thriving. 201 00:18:43,618 --> 00:18:46,158 And so if that's really our North Star, 202 00:18:46,638 --> 00:18:48,278 then that's kind of where we come in and we say, 203 00:18:48,338 --> 00:18:49,198 all right, well, let's just, 204 00:18:49,418 --> 00:18:51,258 let's take an honest look at how things are going. 205 00:18:51,258 --> 00:18:55,078 Because in nearly every state, the amount, 206 00:18:55,378 --> 00:18:56,338 I think every state, 207 00:18:56,438 --> 00:18:58,978 the amount of money that we spend on public education 208 00:18:58,978 --> 00:19:03,978 has increased for people and adjusted for inflation. 209 00:19:03,978 --> 00:19:14,418 and by and large satisfaction has decreased so that's no way to run anything you know whether 210 00:19:14,418 --> 00:19:19,998 it's a business or a service a non-profit whatever you can't run like that if if people are 211 00:19:19,998 --> 00:19:26,118 dissatisfied and it's costing more well you have a problem so we come in and we say um you know 212 00:19:26,118 --> 00:19:31,698 let's think about how to make the dollars follow the scholar. 213 00:19:32,638 --> 00:19:35,458 And that's really the goal, as you mentioned, 214 00:19:35,598 --> 00:19:37,578 and I apologize for such a long-winded answer, 215 00:19:37,878 --> 00:19:43,198 but there are so many components that we think about 216 00:19:43,198 --> 00:19:47,338 because, again, you're talking about a lot of money, 217 00:19:47,338 --> 00:19:52,258 and so you want to make sure that funds are spent 218 00:19:52,258 --> 00:19:59,698 in a way that is not just efficient, but accomplishes the goals, 219 00:20:00,518 --> 00:20:04,518 those goals being educating students, right? 220 00:20:04,558 --> 00:20:08,198 You don't want people just absconding with money and whatever. 221 00:20:09,418 --> 00:20:13,338 What we're talking about is often per pupil, 222 00:20:13,338 --> 00:20:17,398 these programs, a choice program might give parents 223 00:20:17,398 --> 00:20:26,318 between $6,000 and $12,000 per year, you know, per child per year to go towards education. So this, 224 00:20:26,638 --> 00:20:33,698 you know, these dollars can add up really quickly. Something that we think about, and 225 00:20:33,698 --> 00:20:38,998 we think about it because lawmakers think about it. And this is just, it's the real world, and 226 00:20:38,998 --> 00:20:44,638 maybe we have, we can have a discussion about this, but whether or not students who participate 227 00:20:44,638 --> 00:20:50,178 in programs, say, take some kind of standardized assessment, that's often a question. 228 00:20:51,378 --> 00:20:57,758 We don't, at AFC, we don't really mind that, but we think that there should be options for 229 00:20:57,758 --> 00:21:01,098 what that assessment is, so we don't think it has to be the state test. 230 00:21:01,258 --> 00:21:02,878 We think there's lots of assessments out there. 231 00:21:03,078 --> 00:21:03,778 Let's take one. 232 00:21:05,178 --> 00:21:12,138 The way I think about it is that that doesn't necessarily, I think that an assessment is 233 00:21:12,138 --> 00:21:20,398 really, um, meant to be a diagnostic tool. How are, you know, did that lesson stick, right? You're a 234 00:21:20,398 --> 00:21:26,738 teacher. So did the lesson stick? If I, to think about it in a different domain, I think about the, 235 00:21:26,738 --> 00:21:35,858 the test is kind of like a scale. And if you are on a, on a new exercise plan, um, if, if your 236 00:21:35,858 --> 00:21:41,498 doctor has said, hey, you need to, you know, Shaka, you need to lose weight for your health. 237 00:21:41,798 --> 00:21:46,818 Okay, well, the way I'm going to know if the plan is working is to get on the scale. 238 00:21:49,058 --> 00:21:53,238 Don't be mad at the scale if it tells you something you don't like, you know, be mad 239 00:21:53,238 --> 00:21:55,618 at what happened before you got on the scale. 240 00:21:55,758 --> 00:21:57,318 And I feel the same way about assessments. 241 00:21:57,618 --> 00:22:00,738 Is that like, don't be mad at the assessment necessarily. 242 00:22:00,958 --> 00:22:04,798 If the assessment is well written, it's going to tell us whether or not the instruction 243 00:22:04,798 --> 00:22:05,298 was good. 244 00:22:05,298 --> 00:22:06,638 It's going to tell us whether or not things stick. 245 00:22:06,838 --> 00:22:10,618 So anyway, but that's something that is often written into the laws. 246 00:22:11,138 --> 00:22:12,798 Sometimes eligibility can vary. 247 00:22:12,918 --> 00:22:18,358 So there are a lot of factors that go into creating these laws. 248 00:22:18,678 --> 00:22:21,658 And then it's one thing to write it down. 249 00:22:22,098 --> 00:22:25,018 Writing it down in draft form is kind of the idea. 250 00:22:25,698 --> 00:22:27,438 And then you have to get it passed. 251 00:22:27,438 --> 00:22:30,138 And that's really when then it gets political. 252 00:22:30,498 --> 00:22:33,018 And that's a whole other process. 253 00:22:33,018 --> 00:22:40,138 and not unlike being in the middle of a middle school, 254 00:22:40,378 --> 00:22:41,918 like cafeteria food fight. 255 00:22:42,438 --> 00:22:45,078 So it's a little bit like that. 256 00:22:45,838 --> 00:22:48,018 Like this, I did imagine it. 257 00:22:49,178 --> 00:22:50,578 Yeah, very, very interesting. 258 00:22:50,698 --> 00:22:51,218 Thank you so much. 259 00:22:51,518 --> 00:22:51,998 You know what? 260 00:22:52,058 --> 00:22:55,518 In my brain, I have all these German information 261 00:22:55,518 --> 00:22:57,018 about how this works in Germany 262 00:22:57,018 --> 00:23:00,858 and still I'm overwhelmed with how German education works. 263 00:23:00,858 --> 00:23:05,438 and hearing it in English from another country, 264 00:23:05,498 --> 00:23:07,098 about another country is like, oh my God, 265 00:23:07,178 --> 00:23:08,838 my brain is like lagging. 266 00:23:09,398 --> 00:23:11,138 But it's really, really interesting 267 00:23:11,138 --> 00:23:14,418 because it's very different from how it works in Germany. 268 00:23:15,058 --> 00:23:17,078 And I think it's quite interesting. 269 00:23:17,818 --> 00:23:20,198 Another question I was thinking about 270 00:23:20,198 --> 00:23:22,598 because Germans love alternative education. 271 00:23:22,878 --> 00:23:25,738 So there is a Montessori school in every village. 272 00:23:25,738 --> 00:23:27,358 You can easily access that. 273 00:23:27,538 --> 00:23:30,698 And a lot of different kinds of alternative education models 274 00:23:30,698 --> 00:23:36,938 are out there and how does it look in the u.s because i have no clue i heard about some democratic 275 00:23:36,938 --> 00:23:42,578 schools that i found very interesting personally but apart from that i have no clue about the 276 00:23:42,578 --> 00:23:50,158 landscape yeah it's um and and i you can instruct me and inform me about about the german model 277 00:23:50,158 --> 00:23:57,538 because um you know something that i suspect is very different is because we have this federated 278 00:23:57,538 --> 00:24:05,538 model because we have 50 states we really have 50 education systems you know so the um if you 279 00:24:05,538 --> 00:24:12,698 look if you were to look at funding sources um the federal government the national government 280 00:24:12,698 --> 00:24:21,658 only accounts for about 10 11 percent of school funding in the u.s the vast majority of funds 281 00:24:21,658 --> 00:24:30,018 are local and state funds. And so that's really, so the vast majority of, you know, the decision 282 00:24:30,018 --> 00:24:35,038 making and the dynamics that are important are happening at the local and state level. 283 00:24:36,038 --> 00:24:44,818 What that means is if you move from California to Florida, totally different system. If you move 284 00:24:44,818 --> 00:24:53,458 from Florida to a border state, Georgia, different system. Even within a state from district to 285 00:24:53,458 --> 00:25:00,698 district, you can have different systems and different options. And so I think that this can 286 00:25:00,698 --> 00:25:07,778 be really, really tricky for parents navigating education in the US because you've got to figure 287 00:25:07,778 --> 00:25:12,518 out, all right, what options are available where I live? There might be a zoned option. 288 00:25:12,518 --> 00:25:15,658 And so, for instance, where I live, I'm in Nashville, Tennessee. 289 00:25:17,158 --> 00:25:30,138 There, the public school, the public government run elementary school, the primary school that is closest to my house does not provide transportation. 290 00:25:33,138 --> 00:25:39,518 So what that means is that if you live very close to the school, that's fine. 291 00:25:39,518 --> 00:25:42,758 and that may be a good option for you and you might choose that for your kids. 292 00:25:43,318 --> 00:25:45,938 But the zone is much larger. 293 00:25:46,718 --> 00:25:50,618 And so there are kids who are eligible to attend that school 294 00:25:50,618 --> 00:25:53,938 who live a mile and a half away. 295 00:25:53,938 --> 00:26:01,538 And it's not a mile and a half with sidewalks and some safe bike path. 296 00:26:01,738 --> 00:26:06,698 It's a mile and a half of major roads and trucks. 297 00:26:06,698 --> 00:26:13,978 and you're talking about six-year-olds and we don't have a culture that is very pedestrian 298 00:26:13,978 --> 00:26:19,218 friendly. So what does, what does it mean? It means that practically speaking, no one who lives 299 00:26:19,218 --> 00:26:24,738 a mile and a half away. And, and in this case, the, the families who live a mile and a half away 300 00:26:24,738 --> 00:26:31,198 are, are the lower income families. They don't have access to this school. So they end up going 301 00:26:31,198 --> 00:26:35,138 to another school. So anyway, so it's these little idiosyncrasies can really change things. 302 00:26:35,138 --> 00:26:46,018 In terms of the appetite for different models and methods, that's something that I am pleased to say is growing in the U.S. 303 00:26:46,678 --> 00:26:56,858 There's still a lot of nostalgia, but because of all the choice programs that now have started to pass, you are seeing a whole lot of new models. 304 00:26:57,898 --> 00:26:59,118 You mentioned Montessori. 305 00:26:59,118 --> 00:27:05,118 We've got, you know, there's Montessori schools and there might be what are called like Waldorf schools. 306 00:27:06,298 --> 00:27:12,718 And you've got lots of classical schools are starting and have started. 307 00:27:12,958 --> 00:27:19,498 You have things, the hybrid schools that are that are starting in the hybrid sort of micro schools and co-ops. 308 00:27:19,658 --> 00:27:27,738 So dependent upon the state, I would say you have you may have a whole lot of diversity of model. 309 00:27:27,738 --> 00:27:48,158 But a lot of it comes down to can you fund it? And so if you're in a state like, let's say, Oregon or Washington State or Maryland, even New York, those states don't have private choice programs. 310 00:27:48,158 --> 00:28:02,418 So if you want to get funds for school, your options are the government schools or what's called a charter school, which is another type of public school sort of run by an independent nonprofit. 311 00:28:03,838 --> 00:28:05,058 Those are your options. 312 00:28:05,558 --> 00:28:11,438 If you want to do something that's a non-public school, well, you have to pay for it yourself. 313 00:28:11,438 --> 00:28:16,278 And so that's necessarily going to cut a lot of people out of the process. 314 00:28:16,278 --> 00:28:31,018 I think, yeah, it's really unfortunate because there are a lot of people who, you know, just because they don't, they may not have the means to do it doesn't mean that they couldn't provide, you know, a great education for their kids or find something else. 315 00:28:31,018 --> 00:28:35,178 Or their kids may really need it because they may be, you know, atypical learners or what have you. 316 00:28:35,258 --> 00:28:42,058 And so it's not just about, you know, some personal preference or some whim or some fancy. 317 00:28:42,058 --> 00:28:53,778 I mean, it's, there are real lives at stake and not all kids are going to do well in a brick and mortar school with, you know, 25 other kids in 180 days. 318 00:28:53,918 --> 00:28:58,038 So, so it's a real shame those, those states that lack options right now. 319 00:28:58,538 --> 00:28:59,018 Yeah. 320 00:28:59,218 --> 00:29:04,498 Might traumatize them for life to go through this without being prepared. 321 00:29:05,138 --> 00:29:05,398 Yeah. 322 00:29:05,458 --> 00:29:05,638 Yeah. 323 00:29:05,978 --> 00:29:06,758 I think that's right. 324 00:29:06,758 --> 00:29:07,438 Yeah. 325 00:29:07,438 --> 00:29:11,538 Yeah. In Germany, it's quite, yeah, synchronized. 326 00:29:12,058 --> 00:29:18,718 I mean, we have 16 different states, but you can move from one state to the other and there is no big difference. 327 00:29:18,858 --> 00:29:21,718 There are minor differences, but in general, it is what it is. 328 00:29:22,018 --> 00:29:25,778 And I went to a private school and I was a private school teacher. 329 00:29:25,918 --> 00:29:29,118 So I just know this kind of this part of the story. 330 00:29:29,318 --> 00:29:33,478 And these schools were funded like 10 to 15 percent by the state. 331 00:29:33,718 --> 00:29:36,538 The rest was donation based and paid by the parents. 332 00:29:36,538 --> 00:29:41,158 so we have the same problem in Germany if you don't want state school for your kids you have 333 00:29:41,158 --> 00:29:47,458 to pay it yourself this is what it is I don't even know there are any programs like receive 334 00:29:47,458 --> 00:29:53,298 funding for alternative education for our kids in Germany I have no clue because I left Germany 335 00:29:53,298 --> 00:29:59,478 I don't know maybe 10 years ago or longer because I really felt I had no chance to 336 00:29:59,478 --> 00:30:04,718 find the perfect fit for my son because the democratic schools were 337 00:30:04,718 --> 00:30:13,238 not like I knew them from the US or New Zealand they were quite I don't know weird you know like 338 00:30:13,238 --> 00:30:19,658 in the beginning like they were just growing into what they could be so I felt like wow this is 339 00:30:19,658 --> 00:30:28,338 everything I I've seen was just yeah not enough options for the kids was quite downgraded into 340 00:30:28,338 --> 00:30:33,998 minimum because of lack of funds, obviously, because nobody wants to pay for this. 341 00:30:34,718 --> 00:30:38,478 Well, and you know, one of the things that it calls to mind for me is that, 342 00:30:38,478 --> 00:30:44,638 you know, and I'm drawing upon some of my experience when I was a school administrator, 343 00:30:44,638 --> 00:30:53,398 also part of the problem with a traditional school year and traditional funding is that 344 00:30:53,398 --> 00:30:56,958 an annual cycle of change. 345 00:30:57,958 --> 00:31:01,338 And that's often far too long, too much time. 346 00:31:01,718 --> 00:31:05,218 If you see something that's not working, what do we want to do? 347 00:31:05,318 --> 00:31:10,398 We ought to be able to pivot quickly and change something and say, okay, this is not working. 348 00:31:11,038 --> 00:31:14,238 Often in schools, you have to wait a whole year 349 00:31:14,238 --> 00:31:18,598 because you got funded one time, you're paying for things, 350 00:31:18,678 --> 00:31:20,158 everything's on this annual cycle. 351 00:31:20,158 --> 00:31:30,738 and um that that lack of flexibility i think often you know it locks kids and families into 352 00:31:30,738 --> 00:31:37,338 a system that's not working and you say you know here it is school starts in august by october we 353 00:31:37,338 --> 00:31:42,378 see that it's not working well we have to wait through november december january you know all 354 00:31:42,378 --> 00:31:50,138 until May to get it right. That's crazy. And so part of that, I think, though, is that when 355 00:31:50,138 --> 00:31:56,978 funding, when the funding stream is singular, when it's only government schools, there's not 356 00:31:56,978 --> 00:32:03,818 an incentive to innovate and to be nimble. And so what you want to do is you want to have more 357 00:32:03,818 --> 00:32:15,096 capital in the system that available so that people can try things out And it not to say that we want to I mean no one wants to experiment but but we can do these little sort of 358 00:32:15,096 --> 00:32:20,876 you know, what one author calls tiny experiments, you know, where, where we're trying new things and 359 00:32:20,876 --> 00:32:25,256 teachers should be allowed to try new things and not have to worry that they've got to, 360 00:32:25,616 --> 00:32:31,376 that now they're stuck in a system teaching kids and clearly seeing that lessons aren't working or 361 00:32:31,376 --> 00:32:36,936 that the structure is not working, but I have to ride it out for another eight months. That's just 362 00:32:36,936 --> 00:32:41,476 such a waste of time. And that I think is something that a lot of families saw during COVID 363 00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:47,156 is they saw, okay, I don't, maybe I don't love what's happening when it's 100% digital. We went 364 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:53,176 from all in person to digital, but a lot of families went, why is my, why would we sign up 365 00:32:53,176 --> 00:33:01,216 for this, you know, seven hours a day that is super inefficient. And so I think it started a lot 366 00:33:01,216 --> 00:33:07,236 of people started to rethink this and say, okay, what else is available? And so, you know, there's 367 00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:12,876 all these, what we call them, emerging school models. So all these emerging models that are 368 00:33:12,876 --> 00:33:18,896 popping up, I think there's a lot of momentum there. And I'm excited to see kind of where things 369 00:33:18,896 --> 00:33:26,696 go in the US in the, you know, next five years. I think it's pretty exciting. Yeah. Yeah, it is 370 00:33:26,696 --> 00:33:33,796 exciting to be honest but I had the feeling in Germany that although we know everything about 371 00:33:33,796 --> 00:33:39,416 not everything maybe but so much about how do kids learn the best most efficient way the 372 00:33:39,416 --> 00:33:47,116 way that makes them happy and joyful in life that makes them thrive and maybe even enjoy life a 373 00:33:47,116 --> 00:33:52,876 little bit here and there we know so many things about this and still in Germany it's quite 374 00:33:52,876 --> 00:33:59,016 yeah rigid you're sitting down you're listening to one person then you're listening to the next 375 00:33:59,016 --> 00:34:03,436 person then you are running around the soccer field and that's basically it and I found that 376 00:34:03,436 --> 00:34:10,996 quite disturbing to be taught in school I had lessons in school how to teach and how to learn 377 00:34:10,996 --> 00:34:16,636 how people learn how kids learn this that was part of my curriculum while I was being taught 378 00:34:16,636 --> 00:34:23,276 the wrong way I was sitting there like this can't be true I mean we are behind ages maybe a century 379 00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:32,356 or more even maybe 20 years or more it is for me it was impossible to yeah to understand why they 380 00:34:32,356 --> 00:34:37,976 would teach me how to teach me while teaching me the wrong way what do you think in Germany what 381 00:34:37,976 --> 00:34:45,336 do you think the what's the source of the inertia why doesn't it change I think because it's not 382 00:34:45,336 --> 00:34:51,376 only about education. I might be a quite, yeah, I might be very extremistic when it comes to 383 00:34:51,376 --> 00:34:59,376 why does education work exactly as it's working in Germany. I like one example. Every year in 384 00:34:59,376 --> 00:35:07,076 history class, I had the Third Reich. Like every damn year was about the Nazis and what horrible 385 00:35:07,076 --> 00:35:13,696 people the Germans are and what they all did wrong and that it's my fault as a kid because I'm German 386 00:35:13,696 --> 00:35:16,576 And I learned nothing about what happened before. 387 00:35:17,376 --> 00:35:20,856 I mean, German has a history and it has a beautiful history. 388 00:35:21,276 --> 00:35:23,136 And I just learned about the Nazis. 389 00:35:23,296 --> 00:35:24,596 And I think it's indoctrination. 390 00:35:24,796 --> 00:35:32,196 It's like you have to feel sorry and you have to adapt a certain way of thinking and behaving. 391 00:35:32,536 --> 00:35:34,056 And this is what we teach you. 392 00:35:34,396 --> 00:35:39,996 I wasn't even allowed to ask about the Holocaust, about if the numbers add up and all these things. 393 00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:41,156 I mean, I was a kid. 394 00:35:41,216 --> 00:35:42,176 I was 10 years old. 395 00:35:42,176 --> 00:35:46,876 I was curious. And then I was told, this is illegal. You are ending up in jail if you ask 396 00:35:46,876 --> 00:35:53,856 these questions. And I really think it's about to keep the narrative, narrative as it is. You don't 397 00:35:53,856 --> 00:36:01,016 change. This is what it is. In Germany, people are quite, I don't know, it's hard to tell. 398 00:36:03,296 --> 00:36:08,136 I think it's hard for a lot of people to accept change. I see that in my family, 399 00:36:08,136 --> 00:36:15,036 I go back and forth like maybe once a year I visit them they don't progress they are still in the same 400 00:36:15,036 --> 00:36:21,196 old routine they love that and they are comfortable in this bubble so I imagine all these German people 401 00:36:21,196 --> 00:36:26,696 left behind are still in their bubble and still living that life I left them like 10 years ago 402 00:36:26,696 --> 00:36:35,476 I do imagine that yeah this comfort level of this is what it is it's quite nice and to be honest 403 00:36:35,476 --> 00:36:42,376 for the state it's working quite well and you don't have to put a lot of energy into change 404 00:36:42,376 --> 00:36:50,476 why why would you change and yeah i don't know to be honest when i learned how to teach kids or how 405 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:58,236 to teach the german language there's no way of being creative as a teacher this is all in a box 406 00:36:58,236 --> 00:37:04,076 and if you want to think outside of the box you are screwed because this is not how germany works 407 00:37:04,076 --> 00:37:09,536 this is what it is i don't know what it would take in germany to really bring change to the 408 00:37:09,536 --> 00:37:15,996 educational system because i think even germans a lot of them there are two sides of the german 409 00:37:15,996 --> 00:37:22,596 culture i see like the extremistic people who run away from all of that and create new beautiful 410 00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:30,236 things very yeah um passionate about educational models and the other parts really like this rigid 411 00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:33,336 but we keep it as it is, culture. 412 00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:35,896 So I see two different sides of that. 413 00:37:36,296 --> 00:37:40,956 Unfortunately, a really powerful movement that is changing something 414 00:37:40,956 --> 00:37:44,296 and that is forming new schools, new ways to learn. 415 00:37:44,456 --> 00:37:49,416 It's quite a small portion of the German people, but very lovely 416 00:37:49,416 --> 00:37:54,596 because when I travel, I see all these German, let's call it 417 00:37:54,596 --> 00:37:56,476 expat tribes all around the world. 418 00:37:56,756 --> 00:38:00,196 And I'm super fascinated because I left Germany because of this rigid 419 00:38:00,196 --> 00:38:06,376 thinking system. And then I met all these German people around the world and they were so different, 420 00:38:06,776 --> 00:38:10,896 so much more open-minded, so much more in flow with what is happening in the world. 421 00:38:11,596 --> 00:38:19,056 I think Germany is a little bit stuck in history. That is what it is. But this is just my opinion. 422 00:38:19,056 --> 00:38:24,136 I think a lot of people will hate me for this opinion, but this is what I experienced and 423 00:38:24,136 --> 00:38:28,376 And what I still, when I go back, it's like, wow, time is not passing here. 424 00:38:28,916 --> 00:38:30,256 It's standing still. 425 00:38:31,056 --> 00:38:31,196 Yeah. 426 00:38:31,276 --> 00:38:39,036 It's unfortunate because I think Germans did a great job in the past in, like, invention. 427 00:38:39,516 --> 00:38:41,636 That is hard to lie. 428 00:38:41,636 --> 00:38:44,396 And we just, yeah, stopped doing it. 429 00:38:45,316 --> 00:38:46,996 I mean, it is what it is. 430 00:38:47,536 --> 00:38:47,636 Yeah. 431 00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:56,316 Yeah, I think in the U.S. education system, I think the inertia is a little bit different. 432 00:38:58,316 --> 00:39:09,176 I think that it has more to do, in our case, with, frankly, you have very, very large teachers unions. 433 00:39:09,176 --> 00:39:18,096 and and i mean the unions in education that's sort of the last place that in the u.s we have 434 00:39:18,096 --> 00:39:26,636 very large occupational unions and so um you know we don't we've never had a guild system 435 00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:36,036 as you as you do in many european countries so uh you know we we believe deeply in free 436 00:39:36,036 --> 00:39:43,996 association, but we also have such an individual spirit that, you know, you've seen union membership 437 00:39:43,996 --> 00:39:51,016 decline in most other industries year after year. And it's declining in education also, 438 00:39:51,016 --> 00:39:57,916 but the teachers unions still have a lot of political weight. And so what we tend to see 439 00:39:57,916 --> 00:40:02,656 is when these laws pass, and I used to work at a constitutional law firm that helped defend these, 440 00:40:02,656 --> 00:40:11,096 whenever choice laws pass, the teachers unions will sue and they'll challenge them in court. 441 00:40:11,216 --> 00:40:18,456 So there's one happening right now in Wyoming. A new law passed. It would give scholarships to 442 00:40:18,456 --> 00:40:25,096 families in Wyoming, regardless of income, so that they can access non-public school of their choice. 443 00:40:25,096 --> 00:40:32,616 okay great and the teachers union challenged it basically saying they're what they're claiming 444 00:40:32,616 --> 00:40:37,416 is that the wyoming constitution you remember i mentioned that the constitution's kind of set a 445 00:40:37,416 --> 00:40:44,276 floor they're saying no that's not the floor it's the ceiling and that's all that the state can do 446 00:40:44,276 --> 00:40:52,596 the state can only do can only fund government operated schools and the union is is saying that 447 00:40:52,596 --> 00:40:57,076 which I just think is just a little crazy. 448 00:40:57,196 --> 00:40:58,616 I think it surprises a lot of people, 449 00:40:58,776 --> 00:41:02,376 but you have to be reminded that the purpose of the teachers union, 450 00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:09,396 at least in the U.S., is not to advocate on behalf of students, actually. 451 00:41:10,016 --> 00:41:15,636 It's to advocate on behalf of the members of the union who are other teachers. 452 00:41:16,456 --> 00:41:19,756 And in many places, if you have seniority, 453 00:41:19,756 --> 00:41:22,976 then the teachers get to pick what schools they go to. 454 00:41:24,116 --> 00:41:25,496 So it's a really interesting system. 455 00:41:25,616 --> 00:41:30,856 So on the one hand, the teachers union wants some choice for its members, 456 00:41:30,856 --> 00:41:35,856 but doesn't want choice for the students and the families who are a part of it. 457 00:41:35,896 --> 00:41:38,896 So that's where we see a lot of friction in the U.S. 458 00:41:39,216 --> 00:41:44,116 You know, the other crazy thing about it is that teachers at non-public schools 459 00:41:44,116 --> 00:41:49,256 went to the same colleges and universities as teachers in public schools. 460 00:41:49,756 --> 00:41:59,436 It's not like they're, so I don't think that the, that the members, I don't think the teachers themselves are, you know, really differ all that much necessarily from system to system. 461 00:41:59,436 --> 00:42:05,276 But you see that their association really tries to block innovation. 462 00:42:06,036 --> 00:42:06,996 That's crazy. 463 00:42:07,736 --> 00:42:08,016 Yeah. 464 00:42:08,016 --> 00:42:08,756 Blocking innovation. 465 00:42:09,036 --> 00:42:09,156 Yeah. 466 00:42:10,116 --> 00:42:10,936 I agree. 467 00:42:10,936 --> 00:42:25,876 But there's a lot of people who do really well as members of the union and members of the – if you have a collective bargaining agreement, I mean, there used to be a thing in New York. 468 00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:29,816 I think it still exists called like the rubber room. 469 00:42:30,056 --> 00:42:30,876 And it, 470 00:42:30,976 --> 00:42:39,856 it was a place in the central office where teachers who were low performing 471 00:42:39,856 --> 00:42:44,476 teachers or who had some sort of issue where they said, okay, well, 472 00:42:44,476 --> 00:42:45,656 you can't be in the classroom anymore. 473 00:42:46,716 --> 00:42:48,676 They would send teachers to this room. 474 00:42:48,676 --> 00:42:49,856 So they're still paying them, 475 00:42:49,936 --> 00:42:54,616 but the teachers are not instructing kids anymore because it was such a 476 00:42:54,616 --> 00:42:58,236 convoluted process, you couldn't fire them, you couldn't get 477 00:42:58,236 --> 00:43:00,916 rid of them. So you kept them on payroll, but they're not 478 00:43:00,916 --> 00:43:04,276 actually teaching kids. And it's like, what other job is like 479 00:43:04,276 --> 00:43:10,616 that, you know? And so it's really, really wild. But you 480 00:43:10,616 --> 00:43:14,176 know, hats off to the hats off to the union negotiators, I 481 00:43:14,176 --> 00:43:17,416 guess for getting that deal through. But it doesn't serve, 482 00:43:17,716 --> 00:43:20,056 you know, our schools well, it doesn't serve students well. 483 00:43:20,596 --> 00:43:24,616 No, not at all. That's crazy. Sometimes I 484 00:43:24,616 --> 00:43:31,756 in germany while looking at all these different school models before we left germany i really had 485 00:43:31,756 --> 00:43:37,976 the feeling this is serving the teachers it's not serving the students it's it's designed in a way 486 00:43:37,976 --> 00:43:44,236 to make teachers most comfortable in dealing with the kids i do understand that because it's a lot 487 00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:50,656 it's a horrible job if you are out there alone and it's i don't know designed to be horrible maybe 488 00:43:50,656 --> 00:43:58,016 but in the end if this is so yeah if this is not serving the kids maybe we should 489 00:43:58,016 --> 00:44:04,996 all go on the streets and uh start a revolution or something like that instead of just 490 00:44:04,996 --> 00:44:13,216 working around like not really uh talking about the elephant in the room i don't know yeah quite 491 00:44:13,216 --> 00:44:20,416 quite strange i do have a personal question uh to you so why are you doing this why are you so 492 00:44:20,416 --> 00:44:25,816 passionate about doing what you're actually doing? I mean, I can see that you are really good at your 493 00:44:25,816 --> 00:44:36,056 job, but what is your why behind all of that? Thank you. Well, I have thought, and I guess 494 00:44:36,056 --> 00:44:42,616 when I was first getting into education, there were other things that I was also interested in. 495 00:44:43,296 --> 00:44:50,296 I'm interested in economics and interested in healthcare and interested in criminal law and 496 00:44:50,296 --> 00:44:58,696 criminal justice and lots of different things. But it seemed to me that it's really difficult 497 00:44:58,696 --> 00:45:05,256 to have conversation and to make progress in some of these other areas if we don't get education 498 00:45:05,256 --> 00:45:15,056 right. And so, you know, that's a bit simplistic, I'll admit. But I sort of think, yeah, if we want 499 00:45:15,056 --> 00:45:22,536 to, if we want to improve our, you know, criminal justice system and the outcomes that we see, 500 00:45:22,616 --> 00:45:27,516 if we want to have less recidivism and, you know, less crime, and I mean, who doesn't want that, 501 00:45:27,616 --> 00:45:35,336 right? We want a more, more peaceful community and society. Well, if people aren't well educated, 502 00:45:35,736 --> 00:45:42,256 they're not going to have options to be thriving adults. And, and so I think there's a, there's a 503 00:45:42,256 --> 00:45:47,516 correlation there. And so, yeah, so to me, it's education is such a matter of kind of first 504 00:45:47,516 --> 00:45:54,136 principle almost. I also think, and I, and by the way, I am a pretty like, 505 00:45:55,316 --> 00:46:03,736 we would say like a pretty kind of libertarian minded person. But I think that education is one 506 00:46:03,736 --> 00:46:13,056 of these things that has community benefit. So if your son is educated, that's going to benefit 507 00:46:13,056 --> 00:46:20,916 the people that are around him later in life. And we see the opposite of that too. If your son is 508 00:46:20,916 --> 00:46:25,936 not well-educated, doesn't have a lot of options, well, that's going to negatively impact people 509 00:46:25,936 --> 00:46:33,356 also for the rest of his life. And so I do think that we have a community interest. So even 510 00:46:33,356 --> 00:46:40,036 you know members i think about the uh where i live um you know on our block not everyone has 511 00:46:40,036 --> 00:46:50,156 children but i will tell you they benefit from my kids being well-educated quote good kids right 512 00:46:50,156 --> 00:46:54,296 because if they're not if my kids are running around and they're little hellions the neighbors 513 00:46:54,296 --> 00:46:59,916 who don't have kids are gonna they're gonna feel a way about it you know true and so i do think 514 00:46:59,916 --> 00:47:04,416 that there's some community benefits. So I think that's kind of the why I just think it's, um, 515 00:47:05,196 --> 00:47:10,656 education is a matter of first principle. And I really think it's something that, that, uh, 516 00:47:10,816 --> 00:47:15,476 all families just deserve that kind of access because we don't know when you, you know, when 517 00:47:15,476 --> 00:47:22,196 a baby's born, we don't know what that kid's going to be. We have no idea. And, uh, you know, 518 00:47:22,336 --> 00:47:28,656 turns out humans will surprise us. So just because they're just because a child's parents 519 00:47:28,656 --> 00:47:33,656 at a certain path, we don't know what the trajectory is going to look like. And so how do we 520 00:47:33,656 --> 00:47:43,236 create the conditions that allow for thriving? That's very interesting. I really like your answer. 521 00:47:43,716 --> 00:47:48,836 I need to say, can we talk a little bit about what is happening in Texas? I mean, I've been 522 00:47:48,836 --> 00:47:53,976 reading into it, but just understanding half of what is happening over there, just because I lack 523 00:47:53,976 --> 00:48:02,256 insight into the overall situation. But I remember that in our pre-call, we briefly talked about Texas 524 00:48:02,256 --> 00:48:22,634 because my son is in love with that state and he really wants to move there and be free And I don know what his imagination is And we can apply for the funding there couldn we Yeah so Texas just passed in May of this year 2025 525 00:48:23,474 --> 00:48:28,834 passed the first ever private choice program in the state. 526 00:48:29,614 --> 00:48:33,694 And the components of this law, 527 00:48:33,894 --> 00:48:35,594 it's an education savings account, 528 00:48:35,594 --> 00:48:43,834 which, by the way, I think should be called an education spending account because the purpose is to spend the money on education. 529 00:48:44,314 --> 00:48:48,754 It can roll over from year to year. And so there is a savings component. I get it. 530 00:48:49,094 --> 00:48:54,974 But education spending account, I think that would be a sexier name anyway, because people like to spend more than they like to save. 531 00:48:54,974 --> 00:49:00,474 So anyway, I've lost that battle, that PR battle, marketing battle. 532 00:49:00,954 --> 00:49:07,594 But Texas passed an education savings account program this past year. 533 00:49:08,334 --> 00:49:19,334 And that program allows, it's going to create about 100,000 scholarships in the first year. 534 00:49:19,334 --> 00:49:35,134 So they allocated $1 billion to this program and families can apply to, you know, to the program. They can apply regardless of, you know, where they live in the state. 535 00:49:35,134 --> 00:49:40,514 and if they are accepted, 536 00:49:40,674 --> 00:49:42,254 they'll probably have to be a lottery 537 00:49:42,254 --> 00:49:44,634 because I imagine that a lot of families 538 00:49:44,634 --> 00:49:45,954 are going to apply for this thing. 539 00:49:46,434 --> 00:49:48,474 Even in the first year, 540 00:49:49,094 --> 00:49:52,094 they can take the funds 541 00:49:52,094 --> 00:49:56,714 and they can use it on the educational expenses 542 00:49:56,714 --> 00:49:59,094 of their choice. 543 00:49:59,094 --> 00:50:03,614 Now, there are some eligibility 544 00:50:03,614 --> 00:50:11,534 kind of not really constraints, but there's some priorities. So lower income families are 545 00:50:11,534 --> 00:50:20,214 prioritized in the, in the program. The program can grow though over the years. So it's, I think 546 00:50:20,214 --> 00:50:24,374 they will probably give out a hundred thousand of these things in the first year. And I would expect 547 00:50:24,374 --> 00:50:28,074 year two, that that number is just going to keep increasing, right? As more people learn about the 548 00:50:28,074 --> 00:50:36,354 program and do different things. Right now, so you may not like this part, but right now you can, 549 00:50:37,074 --> 00:50:44,074 or when it first starts in the first year, you've got to use the money at a non-public school that 550 00:50:44,074 --> 00:50:51,754 is accredited. So that's a little bit different. So it's not as expansive as it could be. But I 551 00:50:51,754 --> 00:50:57,614 also think that that's likely to change over time too. I mean, something that I remind friends of 552 00:50:57,614 --> 00:51:05,194 mine who also work in the spaces, these laws change over time and they expand. So Florida is 553 00:51:05,194 --> 00:51:11,914 a really good example. Florida's first program that was like this, I believe was a program for 554 00:51:11,914 --> 00:51:19,734 students with special needs. It's very limited. I mean, and only a certain list of disabilities. 555 00:51:19,734 --> 00:51:29,614 very small you fast forward now 20 years later and every child in the state of florida is eligible 556 00:51:29,614 --> 00:51:36,594 for an esa they could all apply in the same year i mean there's no monetary limit on it 557 00:51:36,594 --> 00:51:43,734 and 500 000 students participate currently so it's so it's grown so these things change over time 558 00:51:43,734 --> 00:52:00,534 So I think I would say that even though in Texas, you know, you couldn't use it in sort of an unschooled way, you know, in the first year, I think let's give it time, a little bit of time, and let's see how it works. 559 00:52:01,334 --> 00:52:11,174 But maybe you can, because they are credited online schools based in the US that do allow unschooling based on their philosophy. 560 00:52:11,174 --> 00:52:15,954 okay so this would be a loophole for everyone who's interested yeah yeah that's right that's 561 00:52:15,954 --> 00:52:24,974 right no and and i think i mean i even saw um an organization uh is working on creating a new 562 00:52:24,974 --> 00:52:29,994 accreditation body to do just that so i think maybe so maybe there will be more than you know 563 00:52:29,994 --> 00:52:38,754 more than one accrediting agency to do that and so i i think yeah i think over time um and we're 564 00:52:38,754 --> 00:52:44,334 not talking about a generation. I think in a matter of years, we'll see if the program goes 565 00:52:44,334 --> 00:52:50,774 well, you'll see additional uses, additional ways that families are using the funds in some pretty 566 00:52:50,774 --> 00:53:00,014 innovative ways. So it's a pretty cool program. Here's something that some Texas trivia for you 567 00:53:00,014 --> 00:53:09,394 and your son, some of the biggest pushback in Texas, the biggest resistance, most resistance to 568 00:53:09,394 --> 00:53:20,214 this came from rural legislators. And the word from them was often that basically they were worried 569 00:53:20,214 --> 00:53:25,914 that, well, they would say two things. First of all, they would say, well, we don't even have any 570 00:53:25,914 --> 00:53:33,134 private schools in our area. Okay. So that's on the one hand. On the other hand, they would say, 571 00:53:33,294 --> 00:53:40,594 well, if a lot of people use this program and it's going to do, uh, all of the kids are going 572 00:53:40,594 --> 00:53:44,414 to leave the one high school that we have, and we're not going to be able to have a football team 573 00:53:44,414 --> 00:53:52,954 anymore. And so what we would say is, well, which is it? Are there no options or is it going to 574 00:53:52,954 --> 00:53:58,354 decimate your school because it it's likely not going to do you know both of those things 575 00:53:58,354 --> 00:54:05,694 both can't be simultaneously true um and that was a dynamic in texas that we fought for 576 00:54:05,694 --> 00:54:13,274 a really long time i mean more than 10 years we've been at this fight in texas and um so much of it 577 00:54:13,274 --> 00:54:20,814 had to do with friday night high school football um but i think finally there was enough momentum 578 00:54:20,814 --> 00:54:23,314 and we realize that you can have two things at once. 579 00:54:23,414 --> 00:54:26,754 You can have educational freedom and high school football. 580 00:54:27,114 --> 00:54:29,614 These things are not in conflict. 581 00:54:30,954 --> 00:54:31,614 I'm so sorry. 582 00:54:32,334 --> 00:54:33,114 No, you're fine. 583 00:54:34,114 --> 00:54:35,694 Can you do it slow or later? 584 00:54:37,134 --> 00:54:37,574 Wonderful. 585 00:54:38,774 --> 00:54:41,114 Coming home from picnic with the dog. 586 00:54:41,474 --> 00:54:42,334 This is real life. 587 00:54:42,974 --> 00:54:43,874 This is real life. 588 00:54:43,994 --> 00:54:44,694 It is what it is. 589 00:54:45,754 --> 00:54:48,574 Yes, so one last question I have for you is, 590 00:54:48,574 --> 00:54:51,174 What are the next steps for you? 591 00:54:51,314 --> 00:54:52,794 What are you fighting for next? 592 00:54:52,894 --> 00:54:54,974 Or what state are you tackling next? 593 00:54:55,154 --> 00:54:57,254 Maybe we can have an outlook on what is happening. 594 00:54:58,194 --> 00:55:04,734 I would say the next big push is actually at the federal level, at the national level. 595 00:55:05,354 --> 00:55:08,434 So everything that I said still holds true. 596 00:55:08,554 --> 00:55:14,614 Most education decisions in the states happen at the state level and then even more localized. 597 00:55:14,614 --> 00:55:29,354 But as part of the recent national budget that was passed, there's a federal program that allows scholarship organizations to start in every state. 598 00:55:30,514 --> 00:55:37,294 And people can give money to the scholarships and they can get a tax credit. 599 00:55:37,294 --> 00:55:50,434 So if you have to pay taxes, as anyone who works has to pay federal income tax, instead of paying federal tax to the government, I could write a portion of that. 600 00:55:50,514 --> 00:55:53,014 I could send a portion of that to a scholarship organization. 601 00:55:53,614 --> 00:55:57,654 So let's say I have to pay $5,000 at the end of the year. 602 00:55:58,074 --> 00:55:59,034 Well, I have to pay it. 603 00:55:59,034 --> 00:56:10,814 But now, instead of paying $5,000 to the United States Treasury, I can send a portion of that to a scholarship organization in my state. 604 00:56:11,034 --> 00:56:13,614 And then those can give out scholarships. 605 00:56:14,314 --> 00:56:21,754 Why it's going to be a fight is because the governors have to opt into this program. 606 00:56:21,754 --> 00:56:40,474 And so there's going to be a lot of governors who are on the fence about this, primarily in your Democratic governors, are on the fence about this because they have usually been beholden to the teachers unions. 607 00:56:41,234 --> 00:56:47,214 And so anything that kind of has a whiff of school choice, they just get nervous about. 608 00:56:47,214 --> 00:56:50,714 But so I think that's going to be our next push. 609 00:56:50,914 --> 00:56:55,214 But I'm hopeful that a lot of people are going to participate because if you don't. 610 00:56:56,854 --> 00:57:02,754 So let's say you're in California and your governor in California does not participate. 611 00:57:03,554 --> 00:57:04,934 Well, that's fine. 612 00:57:06,154 --> 00:57:09,314 It's not really fine, but that's his prerogative. 613 00:57:10,034 --> 00:57:14,214 But as a taxpayer in California, he can't block you from giving money. 614 00:57:15,054 --> 00:57:20,134 So all it means is that there's going to be no scholarship organizations in California, 615 00:57:20,454 --> 00:57:25,134 but you could still give money to a scholarship organization in Texas or Tennessee. 616 00:57:25,594 --> 00:57:29,354 So if you're the governor of a state like California and you don't participate, 617 00:57:29,354 --> 00:57:37,174 it just means that you're exporting millions of dollars, potentially, to kids in a different state. 618 00:57:37,434 --> 00:57:38,854 And I don't know why you would want to do that. 619 00:57:38,914 --> 00:57:40,614 That just seems bananas to me. 620 00:57:41,514 --> 00:57:43,874 So that's going to be the next fight. 621 00:57:43,874 --> 00:57:55,434 But, you know, if governors get on board, it means that you could have these scholarship organizations in 50 states and and the scholarships can be used just like an ESA. 622 00:57:55,714 --> 00:57:59,294 They can be used for a range of educational expenses. 623 00:57:59,294 --> 00:58:09,254 So not just tuition, but you could use it on materials and, you know, any kind of educational services and therapies and all sorts of online activities, all sorts of things. 624 00:58:09,254 --> 00:58:11,194 So that's kind of where we're headed next. 625 00:58:11,714 --> 00:58:12,654 That's really nice. 626 00:58:12,654 --> 00:58:16,514 What do you think? How many years will it take to go there? 627 00:58:17,454 --> 00:58:23,374 Well, I mean, the programs passed, the first scholarships will be given out in 2027. 628 00:58:24,734 --> 00:58:31,134 I think that right out the gate, half the states or more will participate. 629 00:58:32,134 --> 00:58:38,414 So I think you'll see, you know, probably 30 states immediately participate. 630 00:58:38,414 --> 00:59:06,594 And then the other ones will kind of waffle around a little bit, but I don't think it will take, take very long, honestly, because it's just, it's free, free money is how it's going to be sort of sold. And that's how it's going to feel. And that program, by the way, would stack on top of a state program. So, you know, I mentioned in, in Texas, if you got the, so if you move to, if you follow your son's advice and you move to Texas, which would be a very big difference from where you've been. 631 00:59:06,594 --> 00:59:16,134 But if you move to Texas and you participated in the ESA program, that would be about $10,000. 632 00:59:16,574 --> 00:59:17,014 Okay. 633 00:59:17,114 --> 00:59:21,694 For that program, then the federal program could stack on top of that. 634 00:59:21,694 --> 00:59:25,874 And who knows, that could be another two, three, $5,000 on top of that. 635 00:59:26,414 --> 00:59:30,514 So that, that goes a long way and that could really help a lot of families. 636 00:59:30,694 --> 00:59:33,614 So I, I think a lot of States are going to participate. 637 00:59:34,314 --> 00:59:35,354 That is beautiful. 638 00:59:36,594 --> 00:59:44,874 nice we're hopeful so you know come on over to texas the water's nice come on in let's see how i 639 00:59:44,874 --> 00:59:52,954 can yeah manifest this it is a lot to move to the u.s as a foreigner it is quite hard i mean it 640 00:59:52,954 --> 00:59:59,914 always has been quite difficult to move to the u.s but nowadays it's like yeah almost impossible at 641 00:59:59,914 --> 01:00:06,414 least for me i'm not a millionaire so yeah yeah almost impossible but let's see i don't know maybe 642 01:00:06,414 --> 01:00:14,494 the future i mean he's he's only 12. we have a lot of time to try different countries yeah yeah maybe 643 01:00:14,494 --> 01:00:20,734 an exchange program or who knows there's uh many different ways it could work yeah fingers crossed 644 01:00:21,694 --> 01:00:28,574 i'm ready for it i mean i would love to i think i imagine i don't know texas is huge compared to 645 01:00:28,574 --> 01:00:38,134 Germany it is I I know my brain is cannot I saw I saw actually someone put online it was a picture 646 01:00:38,134 --> 01:00:46,414 of Wyoming yeah and they superimposed Wyoming onto Europe and you know it gobbles up like 647 01:00:46,414 --> 01:00:54,834 15 countries yeah and um and I knew this I went to school with um with some women who were in an 648 01:00:54,834 --> 01:01:03,314 exchange program from Austria. And, and I remember, you know, they were talking about how long it would 649 01:01:03,314 --> 01:01:08,574 take to get from one side, one end of Austria to the other. And I said, Oh, well, we wouldn't even 650 01:01:08,574 --> 01:01:15,954 be out of my state yet. Yeah, that long. That's a, you know, I don't mean to belittle it. It's a, 651 01:01:15,954 --> 01:01:20,934 you know, it sounds like a lovely, lovely place. I'd love to visit Austria at some point, 652 01:01:20,934 --> 01:01:22,654 but I don't think it would take me very long. 653 01:01:23,014 --> 01:01:23,174 No. 654 01:01:24,554 --> 01:01:27,174 I think that's funny because I heard the same. 655 01:01:28,234 --> 01:01:29,714 I don't know who I was talking to, 656 01:01:29,834 --> 01:01:32,014 but I traveled around Europe with my child 657 01:01:32,014 --> 01:01:36,234 and it only took me a couple of days to visit a lot of countries. 658 01:01:37,154 --> 01:01:39,354 And we were going by train, I think. 659 01:01:39,894 --> 01:01:41,374 And the other person was like, 660 01:01:41,434 --> 01:01:47,034 dude, I wouldn't even be in the next state even. 661 01:01:47,194 --> 01:01:49,094 I think this person was from Texas even. 662 01:01:49,094 --> 01:01:55,054 he was like dude i would still be in texas yeah yeah i mean even my state is a we don't think of 663 01:01:55,054 --> 01:02:00,954 it as a very big state but if you went from one corner to the other driving from one corner to 664 01:02:00,954 --> 01:02:09,874 the other corner it's about seven or eight hours you know driving and that's i'll put it into uh 665 01:02:09,874 --> 01:02:20,274 into your terms. I mean, that's driving it 110, 115 kilometers per hour, right? So yeah, 666 01:02:20,274 --> 01:02:25,374 it's not like walking. It's a very, very big country, but you're welcome. 667 01:02:25,934 --> 01:02:26,994 It's lovely. 668 01:02:27,254 --> 01:02:29,954 Maybe we connect when you come over here at some point. 669 01:02:30,474 --> 01:02:35,554 Thank you so much. Nice. I'm really happy that we connected because you've been 670 01:02:35,554 --> 01:02:43,754 really putting or giving me a different outlook on what is happening in the US because honestly, 671 01:02:43,754 --> 01:02:49,234 I have no clue. And normally I'm like, let's not get involved with the state doesn't bring any good. 672 01:02:49,894 --> 01:02:56,494 But obviously, there is hope. And it's really nice to see that people like you are really working on 673 01:02:56,494 --> 01:03:04,294 changing so much like the foundation of kids lives, and their future and everything that is, 674 01:03:04,294 --> 01:03:06,694 I think the most important work we can do. 675 01:03:07,154 --> 01:03:09,694 So I'm very inspired by you. 676 01:03:09,934 --> 01:03:12,034 Thank you so, so much for being on my show. 677 01:03:12,134 --> 01:03:15,874 I learned a lot and I really hope you succeed 678 01:03:15,874 --> 01:03:18,654 and do many, many more of these things that you're doing. 679 01:03:19,334 --> 01:03:20,414 Well, thanks for having me, Alex. 680 01:03:20,454 --> 01:03:21,574 I really appreciate it. 681 01:03:22,014 --> 01:03:22,434 Nice. 682 01:03:26,174 --> 01:03:27,674 Thank you so much for listening. 683 01:03:27,894 --> 01:03:28,874 Oh, my fress. 684 01:03:30,354 --> 01:03:31,814 Thank you so much for listening. 685 01:03:31,934 --> 01:03:33,154 If you want to support my work, 686 01:03:33,154 --> 01:03:35,594 please head over to Fountain or Linktree. 687 01:03:36,274 --> 01:03:37,494 I do accept Bitcoin 688 01:03:37,494 --> 01:03:39,934 and it means the world to me 689 01:03:39,934 --> 01:03:41,474 if you guys support my work. 690 01:03:42,154 --> 01:03:43,014 And leave a comment 691 01:03:43,014 --> 01:03:44,734 reach out to me on Noster 692 01:03:44,734 --> 01:03:46,654 I'm really happy to hear from you. 693 01:03:46,954 --> 01:03:47,614 Thank you so much. 694 01:03:48,534 --> 01:03:51,414 And if you want to have more of wildlife unschooling 695 01:03:51,414 --> 01:03:52,454 head over to Fountain 696 01:03:52,454 --> 01:03:54,954 there is a wildlife unschooling premium 697 01:03:54,954 --> 01:03:57,434 it starts with $5 a month 698 01:03:57,434 --> 01:03:58,774 and you can pay more if you want 699 01:03:58,774 --> 01:03:59,754 and you can pay in Bitcoin. 700 01:04:00,434 --> 01:04:02,674 There you will find all bonus episodes 701 01:04:02,674 --> 01:04:07,034 and you will have early access to all my scheduled episodes. 702 01:04:07,814 --> 01:04:09,794 Have fun and see you soon.