1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,060 this is a worldwide for i'm schooling with my mom so let's go 2 00:00:08,060 --> 00:00:16,260 so my son has been talking about roblox and what has been going on on this platform for the last 3 00:00:16,260 --> 00:00:22,840 couple of weeks i mean he doesn't he's not into gaming uh the roblox thing but in the 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:28,600 overall gaming community this was a huge topic and this is why i'm so happy to have you here 5 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:35,560 Tom Arnold. You're a cybersecurity expert. And you had an incident when your grandson was 6 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:41,600 approached on Roblox by a creep. And you made the best of it. You wrote a book about cybersecurity 7 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:47,500 to teach kids about what is going on out there. Thank you so much for being on my show. 8 00:00:48,420 --> 00:00:53,100 You're very welcome. Thank you for having me today. And hopefully the message gets out to a 9 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:56,360 few of the parents and others. That would be good. That would be a win. 10 00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:59,620 That would be really good because I think it's getting out of hand. 11 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,240 I'm not really up to date what is happening right now. 12 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,120 But the last thing I heard about Roblox is being sued by not only one party, 13 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,920 but there are a lot of people now going against that platform. 14 00:01:11,180 --> 00:01:13,260 And I think for good reasons. 15 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,780 Maybe we can deep dive into that a little bit later. 16 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,660 First of all, I really want to know more about your background. 17 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,360 Because you have an impressive background, it's hard for me to summarize it. 18 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,560 So maybe you want to tell me a little bit about what you've been doing all your life. 19 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:33,380 Well, you know, I started my career years ago as a policeman, you know, for 12 years, 20 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,820 which was wonderful and got very much into computers and technology and the like. 21 00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:42,900 I have founded four companies in the past. 22 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:49,660 Some of them were some of the very first companies involved with payment processing online. 23 00:01:49,660 --> 00:01:56,020 and it's where my law enforcement background suddenly came back at me because people were 24 00:01:56,020 --> 00:02:00,680 committing fraud online by stealing credit cards and using those credit cards to buy digital 25 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:08,920 products and so having to come up with methods to try to identify are you really who you claim to be 26 00:02:08,920 --> 00:02:14,680 and do you actually have a right to do what you're trying to do was really the beginning of things 27 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:26,020 And during that period of time, I think we put seven people in jail for committing fraud online in a variety of ways. 28 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,600 And that was really the beginning of cybercrime. 29 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,700 I then founded a security company and was a head of forensic investigations. 30 00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:56,140 So I was doing for many years, probably close to 20, digital forensic investigations ranging from criminal forensics to large hacks of computer systems and other similar sort of cases that came out. 31 00:02:56,780 --> 00:02:57,140 Nice. 32 00:02:58,540 --> 00:03:02,520 And then you brought up the incident with my grandson. 33 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:03,460 Yeah. 34 00:03:03,460 --> 00:03:06,920 which really sort of started things. 35 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:11,700 I had for years been involved in creative writing and other areas 36 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:16,540 that were involving authorship and the like. 37 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,940 And this would be now about two and a half years ago. 38 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,540 He was seven years old. 39 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:27,500 And his family, you have to realize, 40 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:30,140 both the parents are very adept at cybersecurity. 41 00:03:30,140 --> 00:03:37,040 The dad actually is the director of cybersecurity for one of the large Washington firms, as a matter of fact. 42 00:03:37,220 --> 00:03:43,060 So they knew that they had to introduce their kids to technology, and he was playing on his iPad. 43 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:47,200 All the parental controls were activated, everything that could be activated. 44 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:55,580 And the one thing that they did, which I think is very significant for parents to understand, 45 00:03:55,580 --> 00:04:01,900 is they created a safe harbor for anything that was cybersecurity related. So no matter how much 46 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:07,260 trouble the kids might be in, you know, they didn't clean up, they broke stuff, they, you know, 47 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:13,180 you know, raided the pantry for all the sweets, whatever, okay, no matter what level of trouble 48 00:04:13,180 --> 00:04:19,100 they were in, if there was a cybersecurity issue, the temperature immediately dropped 49 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:26,700 on everything and they're very good at it and the kids know that they can bring things to their 50 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:35,720 parents when things happen. So he was playing the game Roblox and in you know doing whatever it was 51 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:43,120 he was doing and an avatar controlled by another player approached him and held up a sign 52 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:52,440 held up a sign that said, what's your name and where do you live? And, you know, he immediately 53 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:59,740 went, wow, this isn't right. And so he went directly to his mom and reported it immediately 54 00:04:59,740 --> 00:05:07,240 to the mom. For me, I started thinking, wait a minute, I've been teaching now at the University 55 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,560 of Nevada, Las Vegas and at California State Universities in the past, the subjects of 56 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:18,100 cybersecurity and digital evidence and digital forensics. And I would always speak about cyber 57 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:22,700 hygiene, cyber safety, because a lot of times I had freshmen in the class, I had, you know, 58 00:05:22,740 --> 00:05:26,240 they're young kids, they're doing things on their phones and all that sort of stuff. 59 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:35,960 Excuse me. And I felt like I was speaking to a wall, no matter what I said, okay, no matter what 60 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:42,080 stories I told. And the reality is, I think kids learn in different ways. And that's why 61 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,200 wildlife, you know, unschooling is really sort of interesting. It's being out in the wildlife. 62 00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:52,060 It's learning things in the wildlife. It's interacting with the wildlife. Those are how 63 00:05:52,060 --> 00:05:59,900 they're actually learning. And that sort of theme I took to heart. And I said, that's what caused 64 00:05:59,900 --> 00:06:05,400 me to write the first novel. The second one's about to be released. And so I wrote the first 65 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:12,720 novel, and it's about two 14-year-olds who basically take on cyberterrorism. And all of 66 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,960 the cases that are described in the book are actually all real. They've been fictionalized. 67 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:24,500 Okay. So the techniques that they use and everything else they do is all very, very real. 68 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:31,680 So I thought it was a way to sort of sensitize kids to the topic of cybersecurity and how bad 69 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:39,860 things can be. The next book takes on two very dark topics and I'm trying to do it in a lighthearted 70 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:45,740 way so that kids can read it. It deals with sextortion and human trafficking, which is really 71 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:53,000 the super evil side of things when, you know, creeps start grooming kids on platforms like 72 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:01,140 Roblox is a good example. So that is a very long answer to your very straightforward question, 73 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:02,160 Who the heck are you? 74 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:04,340 No, I love it. 75 00:07:04,380 --> 00:07:05,120 I really love it. 76 00:07:05,740 --> 00:07:06,060 Yes. 77 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,420 So I think as a parent, my parents always told me about stranger danger. 78 00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:15,980 And there was a time in Germany, I remember that kids were stolen from their homes because 79 00:07:15,980 --> 00:07:22,240 they were like crazy people ringing on your doorbell. 80 00:07:22,780 --> 00:07:25,740 And if a kid would open, they would grab the kid and run away. 81 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:29,040 So I was for a couple of years, I wasn't allowed to open the door. 82 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,700 And I didn't understand it back then. 83 00:07:31,940 --> 00:07:36,200 But as I had my son, I was like, hold on, hold on. 84 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,920 This was already topic when I was a little kid. 85 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,000 And it didn't change. 86 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,680 It got worse and worse and worse because now we have stranger danger offline and online. 87 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:51,600 And I mean, offline, we know the drill, I would say. 88 00:07:51,600 --> 00:08:08,160 But online, I think a lot of parents are in the void because they don't want to take away the, I don't know, the fun of gaming and being online and experiencing this world. 89 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,660 But at the same time, you cannot leave them alone. 90 00:08:10,780 --> 00:08:19,800 It's like leaving them in the mall at, I don't know, three o'clock when everyone is in the mall and just let things happen. 91 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:29,980 so when I was when I'm sorry to talk over you but when I was a kid um my mom would drop me off at the 92 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:38,020 park uh you know and say look I'm going shopping you stay here when the street lights come on 93 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:46,180 you come home that's the way it was okay that's the way it was would any parent do that today 94 00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:50,680 And so today, parents go into a restaurant with their kids. 95 00:08:51,800 --> 00:09:01,200 The teen daughter is fighting with the younger brother, and they're in a restaurant, and all the parents want is to have a nice, quiet meal. 96 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:06,240 So they pass out the iPad to the kid and say, play your iPad and shut up. 97 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,460 And they tell the teen daughter, just do things on your phone. 98 00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:17,320 okay and the reality is they're actually dropping the kids off at that park right now and letting 99 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:23,000 them go uh sort of shot is is really what's happening when they do that and i see that 100 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,640 all the time you know and it's and i even see cases where oh wait my ipad's not logged on mom 101 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,000 mom will log it onto the wireless network in the restaurant and pass it back to the kid 102 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:45,060 you know and i'm just like ah hold on a second here you know what's going on you know so yeah 103 00:09:45,060 --> 00:09:50,480 i i do think you know i had one parent come to me and say that you know she felt it was a lot 104 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,880 easier to talk to her kids about sex than it was to talk to them about cyber security because she 105 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:01,280 was scared she was scared they knew more than she did and she would look stupid yeah really what it 106 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:10,680 life and you know which is just one of those themes and you know the so yeah i think parents 107 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:15,100 have to largely get over that and they've got to stay close to their kids when they're online 108 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:22,760 and gaming and everything else so true yeah we have a strict rule here at home that is not i mean 109 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:31,560 I basically live the way so I don't have to talk about too many creepy, strange things, 110 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:37,300 because I don't really want to take the fun away of living because it's already hard for kids. 111 00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:42,380 I mean, I had a childhood where I could just go out and do things that's impossible for my son. 112 00:10:42,660 --> 00:10:47,740 I always have to be with him. I have to drop him off. And there is no independency at the moment 113 00:10:47,740 --> 00:10:54,240 for him in these kind of things. So how we do it online, he's always with me in the room when he's 114 00:10:54,240 --> 00:11:00,740 online and doing things. And we have this open door policy where we really, we talk about everything 115 00:11:00,740 --> 00:11:06,160 that he consumes online. I want to see it. And I'm not like behind his back, like, oh, what are you 116 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:11,780 doing? Can I have a look? But it's more or less like sharing, look at what I'm doing online. And 117 00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:16,340 And this is how I creep into what he is doing online. 118 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,580 So it's never about I control him, but we share things. 119 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,540 So when I'm open and I tell him, look, this is how I keep my computer safe. 120 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,380 This is why I don't answer this email, why I put this into the spam folder and all these things. 121 00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:37,800 It is a little bit harder because I have no clue about gaming whatsoever, especially the gaming of today. 122 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,320 I mean, in my childhood, you had Sims. 123 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:41,140 It was offline. 124 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:44,900 You downloaded it for 1,700 hours, and that was it. 125 00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:46,800 And now everything is online. 126 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:47,920 It has no end. 127 00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:48,960 There's no limit. 128 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:49,660 Right. 129 00:11:49,860 --> 00:11:53,100 So how do we do it without taking the fun away? 130 00:11:53,680 --> 00:12:00,500 I think one of the major items, we have to go back in time a little bit on this. 131 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:11,100 But in 1993, a gentleman named Peter Steiner did a cartoon in The New Yorker that has stuck with us forever. 132 00:12:11,140 --> 00:12:17,040 and that is it's a cartoon that shows a dog sitting at a computer and it says on the internet 133 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:25,980 nobody knows you're a dog yes and that is the absolute reality of things okay if you look at 134 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:31,700 roblox for instance one of the biggest defects i think with the tool is that there's no age 135 00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:37,820 verification as to who you are and what you are so any creepy person can sit there and claim to 136 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:44,440 be a nine-year-old and behave like a nine-year-old online to try to convince others that they're okay, 137 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:53,200 if you would. And there's nothing that stops them from doing that at all. Okay. So there's, 138 00:12:53,340 --> 00:13:00,800 you know, some very significant pitfalls and some very significant things that I think parents need 139 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,800 to sort of understand. 140 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,800 But that theme that on the internet, 141 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:20,632 nobody knows you a dog really has to stick with us Because you only know what someone willing to tell you is really all you know about them And this goes back to the teenager the teenager on the phone 142 00:13:20,632 --> 00:13:28,992 as a good example. My students as an example. The University of California had a big thing about 143 00:13:28,992 --> 00:13:34,652 doing group projects and sort of doing them online and would create sort of chat environments 144 00:13:34,652 --> 00:13:37,292 for the students to use, which was, okay, fine. 145 00:13:37,492 --> 00:13:38,532 So they're in this chat room, 146 00:13:38,592 --> 00:13:39,972 they're working on a project together. 147 00:13:40,352 --> 00:13:43,172 But the reality is you're not too certain, 148 00:13:43,352 --> 00:13:45,612 even with them in those situations 149 00:13:45,612 --> 00:13:47,352 as to who's actually online with you. 150 00:13:47,732 --> 00:13:50,592 Is it truly your friends or is it someone else 151 00:13:50,592 --> 00:13:52,932 because someone took someone's account 152 00:13:52,932 --> 00:13:56,432 and is just masquerading as them as a good example, 153 00:13:56,672 --> 00:13:58,712 which brings up sort of two topics 154 00:13:58,712 --> 00:14:01,832 that I think parents need to understand. 155 00:14:01,832 --> 00:14:07,292 There's a distinction between friends online and online friends. 156 00:14:07,712 --> 00:14:10,232 They're two completely different things. 157 00:14:10,752 --> 00:14:10,852 Okay. 158 00:14:11,312 --> 00:14:15,552 Friends online is like the group of students who are in a chat room together. 159 00:14:16,192 --> 00:14:17,472 They're friends. 160 00:14:18,552 --> 00:14:23,312 You know them outside the network pretty much. 161 00:14:23,752 --> 00:14:23,992 Okay. 162 00:14:24,052 --> 00:14:26,012 Now things can go sideways there too. 163 00:14:26,012 --> 00:14:36,752 That's why we have cyber bullying, harassment, and those sorts of things happen because that best friend for life suddenly turns into worst enemy for life in there as well. 164 00:14:36,972 --> 00:14:39,232 But that's friends online. 165 00:14:39,832 --> 00:14:44,712 And it's a limited group who's in the chat room, you know, having the conversation. 166 00:14:45,072 --> 00:14:48,432 It's not a general posting sort of situation. 167 00:14:48,892 --> 00:14:53,532 But you still have to be cautious as to what you talk about when you're in there. 168 00:14:53,532 --> 00:14:58,232 So it's one of the biggest things that sort of teens have to begin to understand. 169 00:14:58,792 --> 00:15:02,172 And teens largely will make mistakes and they'll learn from their mistakes. 170 00:15:02,332 --> 00:15:08,092 They'll out there, you know, oh, wow, what's this cute three-leaf green plant in the wildlife area? 171 00:15:08,472 --> 00:15:13,992 Oh, my God, it's poison oak and I've got crap all over my body now, you know. 172 00:15:14,412 --> 00:15:16,512 So, you know, they learn. 173 00:15:18,052 --> 00:15:20,432 Avoid that little three-leaf plant. 174 00:15:21,752 --> 00:15:23,172 That's a good example. 175 00:15:23,532 --> 00:15:36,352 Uh, now the subject of online friends is when the youngins happen to be on that game and there's other people in the game who they believe to be their friends. 176 00:15:36,592 --> 00:15:46,092 It could be a tournament area and they're in a tournament area and they're all working on the same objective, but you don't actually know who these people are that you're with. 177 00:15:46,332 --> 00:15:51,472 Now it really is that stranger danger problem that has to come up. 178 00:15:51,472 --> 00:15:54,252 So the reality is it's really a distinction. 179 00:15:54,772 --> 00:15:57,732 So we always talk about keeping your personal information private. 180 00:15:58,992 --> 00:16:00,992 What exactly is personal information? 181 00:16:01,772 --> 00:16:03,632 What is that? 182 00:16:04,372 --> 00:16:04,712 Okay. 183 00:16:05,132 --> 00:16:05,572 All right. 184 00:16:05,632 --> 00:16:07,932 Hey, kid, I need to know your name and your address. 185 00:16:08,232 --> 00:16:09,952 Is that personal information? 186 00:16:10,532 --> 00:16:10,752 Hmm. 187 00:16:11,392 --> 00:16:11,932 Yeah, maybe. 188 00:16:12,472 --> 00:16:12,852 Okay. 189 00:16:14,152 --> 00:16:17,132 And anything else that is asked. 190 00:16:17,132 --> 00:16:21,352 So if it's outside the scope of the game itself for the young kids, 191 00:16:21,472 --> 00:16:29,592 no answer should be given. Because what we do in forensics, when we're hunting for a hacker, 192 00:16:29,792 --> 00:16:35,892 as a good example, we do a lot of work with open source intelligence, which is opening up and 193 00:16:35,892 --> 00:16:40,792 taking little tiny tidbits of information to begin to build a profile of someone. Now, in our case, 194 00:16:40,852 --> 00:16:47,632 we're profiling someone who's done something very evil. But that's basically the same tradecraft 195 00:16:47,632 --> 00:16:50,912 that's actually used by a creep inside of a game. 196 00:16:51,712 --> 00:16:56,052 They will amass information to make themselves more believable 197 00:16:56,052 --> 00:17:01,092 with regards to your, their target situation is what they'll do. 198 00:17:01,472 --> 00:17:05,432 So the more things you give them, the more they will take and learn. 199 00:17:06,152 --> 00:17:09,132 It's sort of a simple technique that says, 200 00:17:09,372 --> 00:17:12,892 I'll ask you something really simple, like what's the weather where you're at? 201 00:17:14,472 --> 00:17:16,532 Now, is that private personal information? 202 00:17:16,532 --> 00:17:18,752 Does it have anything to do with the game Roblox? 203 00:17:19,792 --> 00:17:20,272 No. 204 00:17:20,932 --> 00:17:24,492 But if you give them an answer, you've given them something, 205 00:17:24,552 --> 00:17:27,152 which means to them that you're open to communicating. 206 00:17:27,772 --> 00:17:27,912 Yeah. 207 00:17:28,592 --> 00:17:30,872 And now I'll ask you something more. 208 00:17:31,132 --> 00:17:32,192 What's your favorite food? 209 00:17:33,332 --> 00:17:34,892 What's the name of your cat? 210 00:17:35,452 --> 00:17:36,392 Especially a black cat. 211 00:17:37,992 --> 00:17:39,672 I just don't happen to see it. 212 00:17:41,172 --> 00:17:43,052 So you follow me. 213 00:17:43,052 --> 00:17:46,952 And then they get to giving them more and more information. 214 00:17:48,012 --> 00:17:54,612 Now, for the teen, it really is a matter of you may be in a room with your friends online, 215 00:17:54,892 --> 00:17:59,712 but still be very careful what you post, especially if emotion is involved. 216 00:18:00,112 --> 00:18:03,352 If you're upset that you're at that family dinner on vacation, 217 00:18:03,832 --> 00:18:07,152 you really want to be doing something else, okay? 218 00:18:07,452 --> 00:18:11,552 Your kid brother is just driving you nuts, okay? 219 00:18:11,552 --> 00:18:12,752 All of those things. 220 00:18:13,052 --> 00:18:19,372 All right. Be careful what you post online. It stays there forever. I will give you an example. 221 00:18:19,832 --> 00:18:27,652 And it's a pretty bad example in a case. I work with people now in the studio that, you know, 222 00:18:27,732 --> 00:18:32,492 it's a large group. It's worldwide that we work with. And I work with a lady out of Latin America. 223 00:18:33,352 --> 00:18:38,592 And she related a story to me where she wanted to go to the beach with her friends, 224 00:18:38,812 --> 00:18:42,392 really, really wanted to go to the beach with her friends. And her parents said, 225 00:18:42,392 --> 00:18:48,952 no can't go nope nope nope so she went to a room she was very upset she dressed into her bikini 226 00:18:48,952 --> 00:18:54,352 she started taking selfies of her in her bikini saying i'm having fun here like i'm at the beach 227 00:18:54,352 --> 00:19:01,412 with all of you guys and within a matter of a few weeks the picture came back and the bikini had been 228 00:19:01,412 --> 00:19:11,772 removed oh god yep you starting to feel this now she went to my mom okay which was the right thing 229 00:19:11,772 --> 00:19:17,052 to do absolutely the right thing to do and everything got sort of settled down you know 230 00:19:17,932 --> 00:19:23,132 if you would but you can imagine with artificial intelligence now what they're capable of actually 231 00:19:23,132 --> 00:19:29,852 doing now they can use that to try to drive extortion they can use or extortion of any kind 232 00:19:29,852 --> 00:19:37,852 it can be financial extortion it can be any type so that's just another little tidbit uh if you would 233 00:19:37,852 --> 00:19:39,872 on the subject itself. 234 00:19:40,472 --> 00:19:42,292 True. I really like that 235 00:19:42,292 --> 00:19:44,052 because one of my questions was 236 00:19:44,052 --> 00:19:46,232 related to this. What do we do with deepfakes 237 00:19:46,232 --> 00:19:48,152 and AI? Because at the beginning when 238 00:19:48,152 --> 00:19:49,892 my son started to play Minecraft, 239 00:19:50,172 --> 00:19:52,492 he was like, oh, there's another 10-year-old 240 00:19:52,492 --> 00:19:54,392 boy, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, dude, 241 00:19:54,992 --> 00:19:56,492 let's not be so sure about it. 242 00:19:56,552 --> 00:19:58,392 Maybe it's an 80-year-old or I 243 00:19:58,392 --> 00:20:00,312 don't know what. So his 244 00:20:00,312 --> 00:20:02,412 hack was always to listen to the voices. 245 00:20:02,692 --> 00:20:03,232 And I was like, 246 00:20:04,132 --> 00:20:06,332 he's quite smart, but I don't know. We can do 247 00:20:06,332 --> 00:20:13,672 anything with deepfake and AI nowadays. So don't be too sure about that. I don't know. So how can 248 00:20:13,672 --> 00:20:19,712 kids verify or what is one way to not fall into stupid traps? Because I think kids are quite smart 249 00:20:19,712 --> 00:20:24,032 and they want to make friends online and they want to have this kind of lifestyle where they can 250 00:20:24,032 --> 00:20:30,252 experience this world or this part of our world as well. And I have a question from one of my 251 00:20:30,252 --> 00:20:36,732 listeners. And he was like asking, how can a secure environment for kids look like? Is that even 252 00:20:36,732 --> 00:20:46,312 possible? Well, it's sort of two separate questions here. Let me tackle the first. Where deepfakes 253 00:20:46,312 --> 00:20:52,972 are concerned, whether they're voice or they're visual, either one, it's perfectly acceptable 254 00:20:52,972 --> 00:21:00,532 to modulate a voice and make it sound and make my deep, dark, gravelly voice sound like a 10-year-old. 255 00:21:01,932 --> 00:21:08,872 That is, we have the technology to do that and it's not that difficult per se. To mimic someone's 256 00:21:08,872 --> 00:21:16,112 voice specifically, it's not that difficult is the point. And when you're dealing with visual 257 00:21:16,112 --> 00:21:22,652 deep fakes, that is someone else's picture, picture of mom and mom saying things or mom's 258 00:21:22,652 --> 00:21:30,632 giving instructions, whatever. It's extremely hard to detect. And one has to have almost the 259 00:21:30,632 --> 00:21:35,632 adult sense. And it's very hard even for teens. The brain is still developing. It's going to 260 00:21:35,632 --> 00:21:42,332 triple in mass during those teen years. It's still developing. So trying to work out a mechanism that 261 00:21:42,332 --> 00:21:47,772 you can begin to detect a deep fake is actually pretty difficult for them. The main thing I would 262 00:21:47,772 --> 00:21:55,072 tell parents in this area is understanding and drawing the lines as to where if lines are crossed. 263 00:21:55,072 --> 00:22:00,692 So if the communications goes outside the scope of the game in some way, shape or form, what's the 264 00:22:00,692 --> 00:22:06,332 weather? Okay. Anything like that, you know, caution, the red flags need to be up. Okay. 265 00:22:06,372 --> 00:22:13,012 They're beginning to cross the line. When you get something that looks true, but not true. Okay. 266 00:22:13,012 --> 00:22:18,252 It could be a picture of themselves in a situation like the girl in the bikini. 267 00:22:18,772 --> 00:22:19,672 That was a good example. 268 00:22:20,272 --> 00:22:20,472 All right. 269 00:22:21,532 --> 00:22:22,572 A line's been crossed. 270 00:22:23,292 --> 00:22:29,232 No matter what, all right, we need to have the kids come to the recognition they can't solve this themselves. 271 00:22:30,432 --> 00:22:30,532 Yeah. 272 00:22:30,812 --> 00:22:32,252 They have to get help. 273 00:22:32,532 --> 00:22:32,872 All right. 274 00:22:33,052 --> 00:22:40,512 Whether that help is a school official who's actually willing to do something, okay, or if that help is a parent. 275 00:22:40,512 --> 00:22:46,632 and frequently this is going to evolve into something involving the police largely. 276 00:22:47,472 --> 00:22:51,132 This is not true. This is what's happening. This is where it's coming from. 277 00:22:51,932 --> 00:22:58,272 Now, law enforcement is sensitive to this. They may not have the tools, depending on the size of 278 00:22:58,272 --> 00:23:03,532 city that someone's living in. I happen to live in Las Vegas, and Las Vegas Metro is very well 279 00:23:03,532 --> 00:23:09,872 tool to handle these situations. But if you get out into one of the northern counties of Nevada, 280 00:23:10,172 --> 00:23:15,532 it's a small department and it's going to be the state that is going to be working on something 281 00:23:15,532 --> 00:23:21,132 like this. And it does take time to get things escalated to the state. Hopefully there's enough 282 00:23:21,132 --> 00:23:25,452 sensitivity in those departments to actually begin to move things. But the reality is you have to get 283 00:23:25,452 --> 00:23:34,972 help is the key thing. Second question. Well, a secure space. You could download arcade games and 284 00:23:34,972 --> 00:23:42,172 just not let them online. That's a secure space. Okay. Now we're back to another silly story of 285 00:23:42,172 --> 00:23:45,632 mine, which was another parent right after the book came out that was in Dallas, Texas. 286 00:23:46,252 --> 00:23:51,912 And she says, Hey, you know, what's really strange. And I got a story to tell you. She said, 287 00:23:51,912 --> 00:23:56,332 my husband and I do not allow the kids to have any technology. 288 00:23:56,492 --> 00:23:57,452 We just isolate them. 289 00:23:57,732 --> 00:23:57,872 Okay. 290 00:23:58,232 --> 00:23:59,272 No cell phones, 291 00:23:59,392 --> 00:23:59,992 no watches, 292 00:24:00,292 --> 00:24:01,112 no Apple TVs, 293 00:24:01,852 --> 00:24:02,792 no iPads, 294 00:24:02,912 --> 00:24:03,692 no laptops, 295 00:24:03,772 --> 00:24:05,772 even nothing. 296 00:24:07,452 --> 00:24:10,872 I came to find out my 10 year old has a Facebook page. 297 00:24:13,832 --> 00:24:14,192 Now, 298 00:24:14,332 --> 00:24:15,012 how did that happen? 299 00:24:15,412 --> 00:24:15,772 Okay. 300 00:24:16,252 --> 00:24:16,612 Well, 301 00:24:16,732 --> 00:24:17,832 got with a friend down the street, 302 00:24:17,992 --> 00:24:19,212 use that friend's device, 303 00:24:19,492 --> 00:24:19,872 made himself, 304 00:24:20,072 --> 00:24:20,272 you know, 305 00:24:20,272 --> 00:24:24,532 learned how to make a page and he made himself a page using the French phone. 306 00:24:25,112 --> 00:24:28,472 And so you're back to why I love the name of this podcast, 307 00:24:28,672 --> 00:24:28,972 wildlife. 308 00:24:29,972 --> 00:24:30,412 Okay, 309 00:24:30,512 --> 00:24:31,172 here you go. 310 00:24:31,352 --> 00:24:31,712 All right. 311 00:24:32,412 --> 00:24:34,292 And so that doesn't work. 312 00:24:34,592 --> 00:24:34,892 Okay. 313 00:24:35,272 --> 00:24:36,732 So there one parents, 314 00:24:36,812 --> 00:24:39,172 there's gotta be a reality that you can't totally isolate the kids. 315 00:24:39,172 --> 00:24:40,252 The only secure, 316 00:24:40,432 --> 00:24:45,092 safe space for the kids to play in largely is you download an arcade game. 317 00:24:45,212 --> 00:24:47,612 There is no network connection and they're just playing. 318 00:24:47,732 --> 00:24:49,112 They're happy playing the arcade game, 319 00:24:49,232 --> 00:24:50,132 but that won't last. 320 00:24:50,272 --> 00:24:52,792 That'll last until they're about 11 years old. 321 00:24:54,032 --> 00:24:54,752 Latest later. 322 00:24:55,872 --> 00:25:02,512 You know, and I got to tell you, you know, right now the median age for when kids get cell phone happens to be 11. 323 00:25:02,652 --> 00:25:03,592 That's why I brought it up. 324 00:25:03,852 --> 00:25:05,952 But that number is going down. 325 00:25:05,952 --> 00:25:10,652 I mean, there's extremes in the minimum side that says, you know, I got a five-year-old with a cell phone. 326 00:25:11,192 --> 00:25:11,332 Yeah. 327 00:25:11,932 --> 00:25:12,292 Okay. 328 00:25:12,352 --> 00:25:14,892 So here you go, basically. 329 00:25:14,892 --> 00:25:20,412 And now it's a matter of staying close to them and helping them in that safe harbor. 330 00:25:20,672 --> 00:25:21,752 It's a safe harbor. 331 00:25:21,992 --> 00:25:28,052 No matter how emotional a situation might get in something, they pushed a button that they really shouldn't have. 332 00:25:28,092 --> 00:25:30,572 They answered a question to somebody online they really shouldn't have. 333 00:25:30,932 --> 00:25:34,472 You know, no matter how emotional it gets, they took a picture of themselves in a bikini on a bed. 334 00:25:34,892 --> 00:25:35,212 Okay. 335 00:25:35,232 --> 00:25:36,892 No matter how emotional it gets. 336 00:25:37,312 --> 00:25:37,752 All right. 337 00:25:38,192 --> 00:25:40,052 You got to sort of bring it down. 338 00:25:40,492 --> 00:25:43,652 You got to be below the problem to solve it is the point. 339 00:25:43,652 --> 00:25:49,992 so it's gonna happen you're not gonna keep them offline very long no it's impossible you're not 340 00:25:49,992 --> 00:25:56,632 gonna keep them in the secure sandbox yeah all the time yeah impossible i tried it to be honest i 341 00:25:56,632 --> 00:26:03,432 tried it for the longest time um but my mom who was so strict with me gave my i think he was seven 342 00:26:03,432 --> 00:26:08,792 at that time my seven-year-old a cell phone and i was like okay what am i gonna do i could take it 343 00:26:08,792 --> 00:26:13,192 away from him that would be very mean so i was like okay now we have to deal with it it is what 344 00:26:13,192 --> 00:26:30,184 it is But I think I don know I thought if he going to another friend place it the same thing He exposed to things I cannot control So why even try to control it Better talk about things be very open And for me the hard part is I tend to 345 00:26:30,184 --> 00:26:37,344 maybe try to not believe how disgusting people are, really. And when we talked about Roblox the 346 00:26:37,344 --> 00:26:42,444 last couple of weeks, I still try to not believe it because it's so disgusting. I mean, a lot of 347 00:26:42,444 --> 00:26:46,004 parents, I think they don't know or they don't want to know what is out there because it's too 348 00:26:46,004 --> 00:26:53,044 creepy even for us as adults. And I think that it's not only grooming, it's the scope is up to 349 00:26:53,044 --> 00:26:59,164 suicide. I mean, there's so much to worry about. Maybe you have some experiences of what kids can 350 00:26:59,164 --> 00:27:06,744 encounter out there. Your question was really straightforward. If I could talk about what sort 351 00:27:06,744 --> 00:27:10,864 risks are actually out there for the kids. 352 00:27:10,864 --> 00:27:14,504 And let me try to explain this. 353 00:27:14,504 --> 00:27:22,384 The various types of cybercrime that occur today are radically different from the way 354 00:27:22,384 --> 00:27:27,064 they were five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. 355 00:27:27,064 --> 00:27:34,044 You know, cybercrime as a category dates back to the 1990s specifically. 356 00:27:34,044 --> 00:27:37,144 But now there's multiple typologies. 357 00:27:37,144 --> 00:27:38,744 We all know about computer hacking. 358 00:27:38,744 --> 00:27:42,404 We know about malware and automated attacks. 359 00:27:42,404 --> 00:27:44,724 But there's a couple of others. 360 00:27:44,724 --> 00:27:48,664 One is child sexual exploitation offenses. 361 00:27:48,664 --> 00:27:55,644 One is pornography and image-based abuse, cyber bullying, harassment and stalking. 362 00:27:55,644 --> 00:27:56,704 These are all different. 363 00:27:56,704 --> 00:28:00,444 How they manifest themselves is all radically different. 364 00:28:00,444 --> 00:28:10,264 But the other one that's really intriguing is extremism and cyber terrorism, which also infects kids. 365 00:28:10,844 --> 00:28:15,144 It is one of the primary targets, which is the games. 366 00:28:16,024 --> 00:28:27,284 The games themselves, the conversations themselves for extremist groups, whether they be far on the right or far on the left, it doesn't really matter. 367 00:28:27,284 --> 00:28:41,144 It became actually very popular in the early 2000s when Al-Qaeda started recruiting like-minded people using games, online games. 368 00:28:41,144 --> 00:28:52,684 So extremists will frequently begin to use techniques that are very similar to a sexual abuser who's beginning to groom the kids. 369 00:28:53,144 --> 00:29:04,764 And they're using the games themselves to find like-minded individuals and to begin to develop them, which is really common right now. 370 00:29:04,764 --> 00:29:10,844 There's numerous examples of these types of games that are out there. 371 00:29:11,144 --> 00:29:12,424 And it's a whole variety of games. 372 00:29:12,524 --> 00:29:13,644 It's not just Roblox. 373 00:29:13,764 --> 00:29:17,984 It's a whole variety of games that are out there specifically. 374 00:29:18,424 --> 00:29:24,244 And they may actually be targeting the younger kids as well as the teams themselves 375 00:29:24,244 --> 00:29:28,204 to find those like-minded individuals right in through the college kids. 376 00:29:28,884 --> 00:29:32,704 It can be a problem on the college campuses as well. 377 00:29:34,104 --> 00:29:38,624 So that's one I think a lot of parents, and I'm waving a pin around. 378 00:29:38,724 --> 00:29:40,004 I shouldn't be doing that. 379 00:29:40,004 --> 00:29:45,924 That's something that a lot of parents themselves may not fully understand. 380 00:29:46,384 --> 00:29:55,544 They've heard in the media about cyberbullying, and the parents need to sort of understand what these are, how they manifest themselves. 381 00:29:56,024 --> 00:30:01,004 And when you suddenly have an emotional change in the kid, maybe it's time to begin to investigate. 382 00:30:01,324 --> 00:30:03,524 Don't give up is my point. 383 00:30:04,624 --> 00:30:04,964 All right. 384 00:30:05,104 --> 00:30:06,504 Also, don't become involved. 385 00:30:06,504 --> 00:30:13,504 One of the more famous bullying cases is where the mom took over the daughter's phone, started bullying the other girl, and she committed suicide. 386 00:30:14,684 --> 00:30:15,144 Oh, God. 387 00:30:16,524 --> 00:30:17,524 You follow me? 388 00:30:17,924 --> 00:30:18,264 Okay. 389 00:30:18,724 --> 00:30:22,204 And that's where friends online can become danger, too. 390 00:30:22,824 --> 00:30:23,624 Yes, true. 391 00:30:24,524 --> 00:30:24,964 Okay. 392 00:30:25,624 --> 00:30:27,604 And harassment is another one. 393 00:30:27,604 --> 00:30:38,384 Cyber stalking, somebody following and using technology to try to follow someone or making them believe that they're being followed is actually a pretty big one as well. 394 00:30:38,704 --> 00:30:40,564 All of these require help. 395 00:30:40,564 --> 00:30:44,804 They require someone to come forward and say, look, this is happening. 396 00:30:45,304 --> 00:30:45,504 Okay. 397 00:30:45,644 --> 00:30:48,324 It can't be solved by yourself. 398 00:30:49,304 --> 00:30:54,084 Now, the child sexual exploitation situation, there's, you know, the techniques. 399 00:30:54,084 --> 00:30:59,964 And now we're typically into that same age group that is pretty much, you know, nine and up sort of thing. 400 00:31:00,024 --> 00:31:03,044 But it's even younger, which is really the sad part. 401 00:31:03,224 --> 00:31:09,364 And now the statement is, look, if someone's asking you questions outside the scope of the game, don't answer. 402 00:31:10,264 --> 00:31:11,324 Go tell mom. 403 00:31:12,664 --> 00:31:14,404 Go to that safe space. 404 00:31:14,644 --> 00:31:15,264 Go tell mom. 405 00:31:16,544 --> 00:31:17,664 Image-based abuse. 406 00:31:18,684 --> 00:31:23,904 Well, with AI and deep fakes, let's exactly see where this takes us. 407 00:31:23,904 --> 00:31:31,624 We're certainly seeing it with regards to phishing attacks to break into places and to try to get people to do things that they shouldn't do. 408 00:31:32,624 --> 00:31:41,224 And, you know, as I've always said in cybersecurity for places, you know, the state of Nevada has got great cybersecurity tools, techniques and everything else. 409 00:31:41,344 --> 00:31:45,644 But cybersecurity professionals have to be correct 100 percent of the time. 410 00:31:45,824 --> 00:31:48,444 100 percent of the time, they've got to be totally accurate. 411 00:31:48,444 --> 00:31:55,564 But bad guys, if they get 1% that takes the bait, they win. 412 00:31:56,584 --> 00:31:58,104 And you can't have them do that. 413 00:31:58,464 --> 00:31:59,684 And it's going to happen. 414 00:32:00,704 --> 00:32:05,024 So being prepared to respond to things is really what the companies have to do. 415 00:32:05,084 --> 00:32:07,964 But that's not totally what we're talking about here. 416 00:32:08,924 --> 00:32:14,604 So anyway, that sort of gives you an example maybe of how cybercrimes evolve. 417 00:32:14,604 --> 00:32:17,624 And it is all very different. 418 00:32:18,444 --> 00:32:27,224 So it is still largely preying on the young adults to try to get things to happen. 419 00:32:28,164 --> 00:32:30,464 True. And so disgusting. 420 00:32:31,024 --> 00:32:45,584 How can parents help their kids develop this bulletproof mindset of not giving in into this temptation of forming relationships online where they shouldn't and really seeing all the red flags? 421 00:32:45,584 --> 00:32:55,744 I think a lot of kids might be even, I mean, I, yeah, we have been part of a, let's say, free school for a couple of years. 422 00:32:55,864 --> 00:33:01,504 And what I learned is that most of the kids, because the parents have no clue what online life is all about, 423 00:33:01,704 --> 00:33:06,404 they are a little bit ashamed of showing their parents what is going on online. 424 00:33:06,844 --> 00:33:12,044 So I don't know, how can we, maybe this is, these are already two questions, 425 00:33:12,044 --> 00:33:22,384 But how can parents support their kids being bulletproof and at the same time relieve kids from this shame, guilt thing? 426 00:33:22,464 --> 00:33:25,424 Because it has nothing to do with the kid. 427 00:33:25,524 --> 00:33:26,244 We know that. 428 00:33:26,364 --> 00:33:30,784 But I know that a lot of kids are super ashamed to tell their parents what is happening online. 429 00:33:30,784 --> 00:33:42,844 Yeah, my opinion here is, number one, having that safe harbor and having that safe zone where you don't need to be ashamed. 430 00:33:43,224 --> 00:33:46,124 You bring it to me and the parents. 431 00:33:46,264 --> 00:33:53,684 It's really hard on the parents, but you have to maintain that calm to make this work. 432 00:33:54,184 --> 00:33:56,864 That trust has to be there. 433 00:33:56,864 --> 00:34:21,764 Okay. And at that point, the kids should not feel ashamed to bring things up specifically. There's things in Roblox that are just astounding. Okay. As it stands. So don't be shocked and try to explain, you know, and work with the kids on this. 434 00:34:21,764 --> 00:34:27,244 your goal as the parent is to try to draw that line of ethics. 435 00:34:28,864 --> 00:34:30,824 It's really what you're trying to do, 436 00:34:31,284 --> 00:34:33,484 saying, hey, it's really good you brought this to me. 437 00:34:34,484 --> 00:34:38,124 You do know that there are some people 438 00:34:38,124 --> 00:34:41,804 who have lower sets of standards, lower sets of morals, 439 00:34:42,204 --> 00:34:45,924 and they could be playing games to create tricks against you. 440 00:34:46,984 --> 00:34:48,964 It's really good you brought this, 441 00:34:48,964 --> 00:34:54,524 and you should know that this is not a good behavior to actually deal with, 442 00:34:54,604 --> 00:34:56,604 that it leads to other problems. 443 00:34:57,204 --> 00:35:01,204 And then you can go into describing some of the other problems. 444 00:35:01,844 --> 00:35:04,044 As far as making the kids bulletproof, 445 00:35:04,504 --> 00:35:07,904 you've gone right into the corporate cybersecurity thing that says, 446 00:35:07,904 --> 00:35:10,704 oh, by the way, 100% of the time you've got to be perfect. 447 00:35:12,564 --> 00:35:13,944 100% of the time. 448 00:35:14,444 --> 00:35:17,084 You can never not be perfect. 449 00:35:17,084 --> 00:35:25,004 okay and you know i i i really kind of fear for those people who have cyber security jobs and sort 450 00:35:25,004 --> 00:35:31,384 of mid-sized companies because a lot of corporate execs don't understand this okay then it only 451 00:35:31,384 --> 00:35:37,564 takes one little incident to make it bad okay so number one is you've got the safe harbor 452 00:35:37,564 --> 00:35:43,704 you got the trust as a parent you can't make the kids bulletproof bad things are going to happen 453 00:35:43,704 --> 00:35:45,024 be ready to deal with it. 454 00:35:46,304 --> 00:35:46,864 Disgusting. 455 00:35:47,344 --> 00:35:48,284 I hate to say it. 456 00:35:48,864 --> 00:35:49,824 I hate to say it. 457 00:35:50,164 --> 00:35:50,404 Okay. 458 00:35:51,004 --> 00:35:54,084 It may not even be caused by them. 459 00:35:54,224 --> 00:35:56,284 They could be with their friends 460 00:35:56,284 --> 00:35:58,364 and they're all, you know, 461 00:35:58,424 --> 00:36:01,164 having fun together with their iPads or something 462 00:36:01,164 --> 00:36:03,764 and one of the other people in the room 463 00:36:03,764 --> 00:36:06,044 comes across something that they think is funny 464 00:36:06,044 --> 00:36:07,764 and shows it to everybody else. 465 00:36:07,984 --> 00:36:08,544 Oh, yes. 466 00:36:08,684 --> 00:36:09,324 It could be that. 467 00:36:10,044 --> 00:36:10,344 Okay. 468 00:36:10,864 --> 00:36:11,264 Okay. 469 00:36:11,264 --> 00:36:14,104 They can't be 100% bulletproof. 470 00:36:14,724 --> 00:36:17,944 But they do need to realize there's a line. 471 00:36:19,424 --> 00:36:24,624 And it's really kind of hard to teach that line between good and bad. 472 00:36:25,444 --> 00:36:27,064 It can be really problematic. 473 00:36:28,184 --> 00:36:32,924 It can be really problematic for parents themselves who can't tell where that line is. 474 00:36:34,044 --> 00:36:34,484 Oh, yes. 475 00:36:34,924 --> 00:36:35,644 I can tell. 476 00:36:36,304 --> 00:36:37,324 Then it's even worse. 477 00:36:37,324 --> 00:36:45,104 okay so then it turns into like i said kind of have a plan for what you're going to talk to the 478 00:36:45,104 --> 00:36:50,484 kids about if they bring you something and if they bring it into the safe harbor into the safe space 479 00:36:50,484 --> 00:36:57,484 and react what are you going to do you know because it's gonna happen it has it's gonna 480 00:36:57,484 --> 00:37:02,864 happen yeah i can relate to that one day my kid came back home and he was talking about naked 481 00:37:02,864 --> 00:37:08,664 people doing things and he saw it online I was like where did you see that online and he was like 482 00:37:08,664 --> 00:37:15,604 at a friend's place in school and they were great parents I don't understand how they could 483 00:37:15,604 --> 00:37:22,324 let this happen but they put an iPad in between the kids and walked away so it happened I don't 484 00:37:22,324 --> 00:37:29,504 blame anyone it is what it is but then I had to have a long talk about birds and bees and all 485 00:37:29,504 --> 00:37:36,864 these things and flowers you know these things and he was way too young yeah he was way too young 486 00:37:36,864 --> 00:37:43,704 and then the next thing was what really hurt me was when we talked about this roblox thing that 487 00:37:43,704 --> 00:37:50,084 is going on right now the main question was why do people do this and i was like dude i have no clue 488 00:37:50,084 --> 00:37:55,644 i'm not disgusting i have no clue why people go out and have fun doing it uh maybe they have 489 00:37:55,644 --> 00:38:03,144 issues in their childhood or whatever rocks their boat is different from what rocks my boat and i 490 00:38:03,144 --> 00:38:10,984 think the hardest part for my kid is to really understand by heart why the fuck are people doing 491 00:38:10,984 --> 00:38:18,644 it and i cannot explain it that is hard it's just i'm just as clueless as he is like i don't know 492 00:38:18,644 --> 00:38:24,744 that we have to deal with it it's out there i was asked by a member of mainstream press 493 00:38:24,744 --> 00:38:29,904 if I could give her a profile of an online creep. 494 00:38:30,844 --> 00:38:33,884 It could be everyone. 495 00:38:35,244 --> 00:38:38,044 I mean, that was basically my answer. 496 00:38:39,624 --> 00:38:44,404 You know, I think, you know, the FBI and the Department of Justice, 497 00:38:44,764 --> 00:38:48,804 their profiling team, I'm sure is battling and struggling 498 00:38:48,804 --> 00:38:51,084 with this sort of thing, you know. 499 00:38:51,264 --> 00:38:54,064 But the reality is it could be any age group. 500 00:38:54,064 --> 00:38:57,824 It could be any sort of moral backgrounds. 501 00:38:58,144 --> 00:38:59,264 It could be anything. 502 00:38:59,924 --> 00:39:06,204 And it is just, and I don't know. 503 00:39:07,224 --> 00:39:12,124 And I gave a warning and I said, you really can't try to profile someone. 504 00:39:14,124 --> 00:39:18,764 If you leave your kid in the park, is it the guy wearing the dark hoodie 505 00:39:18,764 --> 00:39:23,684 or the very attractively well-coiffed woman who walks by? 506 00:39:23,684 --> 00:39:25,004 who knows either one 507 00:39:25,004 --> 00:39:27,424 yeah so true 508 00:39:27,424 --> 00:39:37,556 you don know so true so that the thing that it just like oh boy 509 00:39:40,796 --> 00:39:47,296 So fortunately, I won that discussion that you really can't rely on a profile of someone like this 510 00:39:47,296 --> 00:39:51,916 because if we could profile them, well, then as a community, as a culture, 511 00:39:52,096 --> 00:39:53,856 we could begin to deal with them. 512 00:39:53,996 --> 00:39:54,436 Yes. 513 00:39:54,576 --> 00:39:56,016 But we really can't. 514 00:39:56,216 --> 00:39:57,276 We can't profile them. 515 00:39:57,436 --> 00:39:58,896 They're beyond that. 516 00:39:59,796 --> 00:40:05,916 So, yeah, that's a really difficult question. 517 00:40:06,716 --> 00:40:07,336 Yeah, it is. 518 00:40:07,336 --> 00:40:12,996 And I think even my grandma, I think she's 89 now, 519 00:40:13,756 --> 00:40:19,916 even she is now realizing how many predators are out there. 520 00:40:20,136 --> 00:40:26,236 And in every part of society, it's not always this creepy dude on the corner. 521 00:40:26,236 --> 00:40:29,376 this might be the one who helps you if you're in this situation. 522 00:40:30,136 --> 00:40:37,456 So even she is now slowly realizing that our whole society has this problem. 523 00:40:38,916 --> 00:40:42,996 You will find it in every family, basically, and you have to deal with it. 524 00:40:43,716 --> 00:40:45,716 And that was my thing about the cybercrimes. 525 00:40:46,196 --> 00:40:48,256 The typologies have changed so much. 526 00:40:49,556 --> 00:40:55,436 You just don't have a concept as to the bad guys 527 00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:58,936 because they're all different that are in each of the categories. 528 00:40:59,756 --> 00:41:01,216 And there's what? 529 00:41:01,376 --> 00:41:07,136 There's 10 different categories now of crime that can occur online. 530 00:41:07,856 --> 00:41:10,316 And it's just radically different. 531 00:41:10,836 --> 00:41:15,116 And that's why I said that I brought up the topic of friends online and online friends. 532 00:41:15,536 --> 00:41:19,556 Online friends, we automatically know we're in a dangerous situation right now. 533 00:41:19,616 --> 00:41:21,516 We have no clue who these people are. 534 00:41:21,516 --> 00:41:25,496 and what questions they might ask and what they might be doing. 535 00:41:26,816 --> 00:41:28,996 Friends online is a whole other problem, 536 00:41:29,256 --> 00:41:32,876 but then again, it's a potentially dangerous situation 537 00:41:32,876 --> 00:41:35,396 if somebody else has taken over someone else's account 538 00:41:35,396 --> 00:41:37,316 and is online masquerading as them. 539 00:41:38,236 --> 00:41:38,756 True. 540 00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:39,636 Who knows? 541 00:41:40,856 --> 00:41:42,076 It could be a thrill seeker, 542 00:41:42,416 --> 00:41:46,396 somebody who's just out there just to be annoying as a prankster. 543 00:41:46,996 --> 00:41:50,356 It can go at that level all the way up to somebody 544 00:41:50,356 --> 00:41:52,156 who's actually got a malicious intent. 545 00:41:53,056 --> 00:41:53,436 True. 546 00:41:54,616 --> 00:41:56,096 Either way, bad enough. 547 00:41:56,856 --> 00:41:58,076 What do you think? 548 00:41:58,156 --> 00:42:00,316 I mean, maybe you have a better inside view 549 00:42:00,316 --> 00:42:03,696 on what is trending in cybercrime at the moment. 550 00:42:03,836 --> 00:42:04,896 We see Roblox now. 551 00:42:05,016 --> 00:42:05,996 It's everywhere, okay? 552 00:42:06,496 --> 00:42:09,116 In my generation, it was ICQ. 553 00:42:10,396 --> 00:42:13,216 And in between, there were millions of different things. 554 00:42:13,216 --> 00:42:17,636 But maybe there's a next thing on the horizon already trending. 555 00:42:17,976 --> 00:42:18,916 What could be next? 556 00:42:18,916 --> 00:42:20,436 or is it everything? 557 00:42:21,236 --> 00:42:25,436 You know, unfortunately now it's pervasive, is my point. 558 00:42:27,216 --> 00:42:30,076 Roblox, I think there's some basic things they could do 559 00:42:30,076 --> 00:42:31,296 to begin to fix the game. 560 00:42:31,296 --> 00:42:36,296 The problem that Roblox has is largely they're measuring 561 00:42:36,876 --> 00:42:41,496 their performance for their stock against daily average users. 562 00:42:42,496 --> 00:42:46,676 And they're more concerned about having the daily average user number 563 00:42:46,676 --> 00:42:52,796 be monstrously high than they are necessarily taking care of someone's safety. 564 00:42:53,456 --> 00:42:58,416 I think one of the major items right now, you know, just sort of wrap the topic a bit 565 00:42:58,416 --> 00:43:00,356 is you've got to be careful for yourself. 566 00:43:00,756 --> 00:43:05,216 You know, everybody said, oh, it's not the Wild West anymore. 567 00:43:05,356 --> 00:43:06,316 We have firewalls. 568 00:43:06,356 --> 00:43:08,436 We have all these things to protect us out there. 569 00:43:08,616 --> 00:43:09,316 Yeah, you do. 570 00:43:09,316 --> 00:43:16,316 But it's still the Wild West and it's getting even wilder and it's largely wilder. 571 00:43:16,676 --> 00:43:24,016 chat forums in their own right, and the variety of chat forums that are out there. 572 00:43:24,816 --> 00:43:31,596 Some are favored by malicious actors right now, just because of the way they exist, the way they 573 00:43:31,596 --> 00:43:37,836 behave, and the way they try to protect information. You have corporations like Apple, 574 00:43:38,156 --> 00:43:43,076 as a good example, who's doing more and more to try to hide personal information on the phones, 575 00:43:43,076 --> 00:43:49,556 which is obviously making it difficult for law enforcement and everyone else to figure out what's gone on, what's gone wrong. 576 00:43:50,676 --> 00:43:57,216 You know, or, you know, hey, we've got a malicious actor and we're having trouble proving it type things. 577 00:43:57,316 --> 00:44:00,236 Where the corporations themselves, who are good, honest companies, 578 00:44:00,896 --> 00:44:08,876 and just trying to be, you know, a good citizen out there with privacy that are actually helping the problem. 579 00:44:08,876 --> 00:44:16,956 you know your iphone rebooting every few days is a great example of that you know so it is 580 00:44:16,956 --> 00:44:22,136 definitely helping the malicious actors we've got artificial intelligence coming on the horizon as 581 00:44:22,136 --> 00:44:28,436 well and right now we're seeing that abused in things like phishing attacks and email attacks 582 00:44:28,436 --> 00:44:35,256 smishing attacks which are sms attacks i mean we can just go on so there's not a trend to a 583 00:44:35,256 --> 00:44:40,296 specific platform. It's more a trend of the technology's advancement in its own right 584 00:44:40,296 --> 00:44:45,856 that we're beginning to see advancements in cybercrime. Do I believe over the next five years 585 00:44:45,856 --> 00:44:51,576 that the list of types of cybercrimes that we have won't expand? No, I believe it will expand. 586 00:44:52,796 --> 00:44:58,136 Okay. Because as technology begins to expand, they'll expand as well. 587 00:44:58,736 --> 00:45:04,516 True. So, you know, the fact that we've got the virtual world, you know, now we're having 588 00:45:04,516 --> 00:45:13,616 And a lot of corporations, deepfakes in their own right, have caused a lot of the security companies to try to enhance artificial intelligence to defend. 589 00:45:14,536 --> 00:45:17,336 Okay, so we're going to use artificial intelligence for the defenders. 590 00:45:17,596 --> 00:45:21,476 We've got artificial intelligence for the offensive bad guys. 591 00:45:23,336 --> 00:45:28,416 You know, so to some extent, the bad guys create a brand new marketplace. 592 00:45:28,416 --> 00:45:31,036 They create a new industry and people make money. 593 00:45:31,036 --> 00:45:38,276 I mean, you know, it's hard to understand that cycle, but it is really what it is. 594 00:45:38,476 --> 00:45:42,276 And unfortunately, the young adults are sort of caught in between. 595 00:45:42,856 --> 00:45:43,336 Yes. 596 00:45:43,916 --> 00:45:53,736 And I think it's a good motivation for parents to stay close to technology because I know a lot of parents who are like, oh, that's not my thing. 597 00:45:53,856 --> 00:45:54,796 It should be your thing. 598 00:45:54,916 --> 00:46:00,136 If your kid is into it, if your kid is online, you should be online and you should check out what is happening online. 599 00:46:00,136 --> 00:46:06,476 and it's not an excuse that i'm not tech savvy or anything it is what it is if you hand over a 600 00:46:06,476 --> 00:46:12,276 device to your child and it has access to the internet you should be tech savvy enough to 601 00:46:12,276 --> 00:46:17,596 understand what is happening over there and i think there are a lot of beautiful initiatives 602 00:46:17,596 --> 00:46:26,696 out there to create safe harbors online offline whatever it is so i think we should be participants 603 00:46:26,696 --> 00:46:29,316 rather than ignoring the problem. 604 00:46:29,916 --> 00:46:32,796 The children learn quickly on their own 605 00:46:32,796 --> 00:46:34,616 and many times from friends 606 00:46:34,616 --> 00:46:36,716 who do not share necessarily 607 00:46:36,716 --> 00:46:40,116 the level of ethical values of others. 608 00:46:40,296 --> 00:46:41,616 We've talked about that here. 609 00:46:42,696 --> 00:46:46,156 Speak to them regularly about chat and voice sessions. 610 00:46:47,056 --> 00:46:52,896 Don't give up on that 17-year-old teen daughter. 611 00:46:53,796 --> 00:46:54,496 Yes. 612 00:46:54,716 --> 00:46:55,456 Is my point. 613 00:46:55,456 --> 00:46:56,996 She doesn't want to hear it. 614 00:46:57,836 --> 00:46:59,656 She needs to hear it. 615 00:47:00,316 --> 00:47:01,576 Yes, that's true. 616 00:47:02,976 --> 00:47:06,416 Constantly explain what personal information is. 617 00:47:07,736 --> 00:47:08,676 And that it has to be. 618 00:47:08,736 --> 00:47:13,816 It's anything outside the scope of the game or the chat session itself is personal information. 619 00:47:14,296 --> 00:47:16,936 It is so hard for teens to understand that. 620 00:47:17,016 --> 00:47:18,256 Well, why does it matter? 621 00:47:18,556 --> 00:47:19,696 You know, I'm pissed off. 622 00:47:19,856 --> 00:47:21,116 It just doesn't matter. 623 00:47:21,116 --> 00:47:30,036 And for teens, trying to talk to them a little bit about cyber tradecraft would be the last thing I would suggest, which is actually really difficult. 624 00:47:31,436 --> 00:47:36,636 You know, parents in their own rights know exactly how to manipulate their kids. 625 00:47:37,936 --> 00:47:40,276 They figure it out pretty damn quick. 626 00:47:40,916 --> 00:47:43,536 OK, have that conversation. 627 00:47:43,836 --> 00:47:44,916 You are experts. 628 00:47:45,756 --> 00:47:46,716 Yes, true. 629 00:47:47,316 --> 00:47:48,596 You are experts. 630 00:47:48,996 --> 00:47:50,816 So just explain it. 631 00:47:51,116 --> 00:47:53,076 Keep having that conversation. 632 00:47:53,596 --> 00:47:54,916 See what I did to you there, kid? 633 00:47:55,036 --> 00:47:55,936 See what I did, son? 634 00:47:56,456 --> 00:47:58,336 This is what I'm talking about. 635 00:47:59,296 --> 00:47:59,776 True. 636 00:48:00,236 --> 00:48:00,536 Okay. 637 00:48:01,076 --> 00:48:01,696 That's cute. 638 00:48:02,516 --> 00:48:06,996 I mean, I don't know how else to explain the tradecraft to him 639 00:48:06,996 --> 00:48:10,216 because old guy got you. 640 00:48:11,136 --> 00:48:11,536 True. 641 00:48:11,536 --> 00:48:14,816 You know, so that's what I would say. 642 00:48:16,016 --> 00:48:18,476 That's Tom's tips for parents. 643 00:48:18,476 --> 00:48:27,776 maybe we could start a business with people who can you can order them to harass your kids online 644 00:48:27,776 --> 00:48:35,136 and then you can tell your kids ha gotcha yeah i told you yeah happened to you i told you so 645 00:48:35,136 --> 00:48:44,796 yeah that's right that's right for sure yeah so i have one last question when can we read your 646 00:48:44,796 --> 00:48:50,736 next book? Because your digital detective, the book that you already wrote, is on my to-read list 647 00:48:50,736 --> 00:48:55,156 with my son. I already started to read it, and then I thought, oh, this might be something my son 648 00:48:55,156 --> 00:48:59,816 would be interested in as well. So now it's on hold. And when is the next book ready? 649 00:49:00,936 --> 00:49:10,356 So I will tell you that I'm about two-thirds of the way with the editorial side of the draft. 650 00:49:10,356 --> 00:49:15,956 to complete that. I do know what the schedule looks like for the editorial side of the house. 651 00:49:16,716 --> 00:49:21,656 I do know that the publisher wants to release it on the end of October. I don't know that it'll 652 00:49:21,656 --> 00:49:28,396 happen. I'm going to do my best to get it out before Christmas. Oh, nice. That's good. Awesome. 653 00:49:29,056 --> 00:49:34,816 It's a lot of work. Yes, I can tell. I can tell writing books is a lot of work, 654 00:49:34,816 --> 00:49:41,956 but it's important work because I really think learning through stories is a good thing to 655 00:49:41,956 --> 00:49:49,816 sneak information into your kid's life. It is fun and it's entertaining and it's all of this 656 00:49:49,816 --> 00:49:57,436 and the same, I mean, what I really like is if I'm not the preacher of, you know, you have to 657 00:49:57,436 --> 00:50:02,676 and this and that. So having a story that sneaks this information into their brains, 658 00:50:02,676 --> 00:50:04,456 I think it's a lovely way to do so. 659 00:50:05,396 --> 00:50:06,556 Thank you very much. 660 00:50:06,716 --> 00:50:07,816 I appreciate that. 661 00:50:09,196 --> 00:50:18,136 There's one review on Amazon, which I really took as a win, where a parent wrote down something similar that you were saying that, hey, I started reading it, but I read it. 662 00:50:18,136 --> 00:50:19,676 My son read it. 663 00:50:20,316 --> 00:50:27,556 And then he started asking me questions about wireless networks, communications, and all sorts of technology things. 664 00:50:27,856 --> 00:50:28,456 Nice. 665 00:50:28,636 --> 00:50:31,556 And we began having conversations on these. 666 00:50:31,556 --> 00:50:34,716 and I sat there and said, right, I got one win. 667 00:50:37,096 --> 00:50:37,956 That's a win. 668 00:50:39,536 --> 00:50:42,756 Because that really is sort of what I'm thinking in here. 669 00:50:42,896 --> 00:50:45,156 This stuff's actually real. 670 00:50:45,316 --> 00:50:48,136 I can put it into a computer and it'll really do it. 671 00:50:48,656 --> 00:50:49,156 Yeah, it will. 672 00:50:50,156 --> 00:50:50,636 Nice. 673 00:50:51,376 --> 00:50:51,756 Yeah. 674 00:50:52,476 --> 00:50:54,496 No, I think you're doing a great job. 675 00:50:54,496 --> 00:50:57,656 I really like that way of teaching kids 676 00:50:57,656 --> 00:51:00,736 because it's a lovely way. 677 00:51:00,736 --> 00:51:08,216 It's nice to not blur the lines between mom and being the bad guy all the time. 678 00:51:08,676 --> 00:51:12,236 So this is a helping medium of teaching. 679 00:51:12,456 --> 00:51:13,396 I really like that. 680 00:51:14,456 --> 00:51:18,796 Tom, thank you so, so much for talking to me about all these things, 681 00:51:18,956 --> 00:51:22,876 all my millions of questions you asked, you answered them, all of them. 682 00:51:23,256 --> 00:51:24,276 Really like that. 683 00:51:24,676 --> 00:51:26,336 Thank you so, so, so much, really. 684 00:51:26,336 --> 00:51:31,936 I learned a lot and I hope everyone who was listening to this learned a lot as well. 685 00:51:32,856 --> 00:51:36,516 And let's see what the next cyber crime trend will be. 686 00:51:36,836 --> 00:51:37,836 Not excited to hear. 687 00:51:37,856 --> 00:51:38,096 Yeah, absolutely. 688 00:51:38,736 --> 00:51:41,136 And thank you very much for having me on today. 689 00:51:41,996 --> 00:51:43,636 Very lovely to have you here, really. 690 00:51:43,816 --> 00:51:44,576 Thank you so much. 691 00:51:44,976 --> 00:51:45,356 All right. 692 00:51:48,336 --> 00:51:49,816 Thank you so much for listening. 693 00:51:50,036 --> 00:51:51,016 Oh, my fress. 694 00:51:52,496 --> 00:51:53,956 Thank you so much for listening. 695 00:51:53,956 --> 00:51:57,756 If you want to support my work, please head over to Fountain or Linktree. 696 00:51:58,476 --> 00:52:03,616 I do accept Bitcoin and it means the world to me if you guys support my work. 697 00:52:04,256 --> 00:52:06,876 And leave a comment, reach out to me on Noster. 698 00:52:07,416 --> 00:52:08,796 I'm really happy to hear from you. 699 00:52:09,076 --> 00:52:09,756 Thank you so much. 700 00:52:10,796 --> 00:52:14,596 And if you want to have more of wildlife unschooling, head over to Fountain. 701 00:52:15,136 --> 00:52:17,096 There's a wildlife unschooling premium. 702 00:52:17,736 --> 00:52:20,916 It starts with $5 a month and you can pay more if you want. 703 00:52:21,036 --> 00:52:21,916 And you can pay in Bitcoin. 704 00:52:21,916 --> 00:52:29,176 There you will find all bonus episodes and you will have early access to all my scheduled episodes. 705 00:52:29,736 --> 00:52:31,956 Have fun and see you soon.