So my take on this, like when I started to live according to the flag theory, and when I started to look for alternative ways to educate my child, I was pretty much alone on this path.
I mean, that was 10 years ago. Now the things changed, obviously.
But I was looking for someone to help me with more knowledge, connections and any kind of support I could find.
but it was really, really hard.
So now I have someone here in this episode,
Chris from Denationalize Me,
because you are doing exactly what I would have needed
like 10 years ago.
You are out there and coaching families,
consulting them and really helping them
on the way to find their like optimal setup
for alternative education
outside from the state schooling system.
So I'm really, really happy that you're here with me
and I'm excited for all the information you are going to share with us.
Well, thank you so much, Alex.
I appreciate the introduction.
What an introduction, really.
Yeah, I'm glad that we changed this lack of information
that people seem to seek outside there.
So, yeah, I'm pretty glad to hear that.
Yes, this is actually what we do at Stadenlos.
yeah we are trying to help families to find more freedom in education and yeah this is what i do
since i think it's almost a year now so yeah besides of that i do most of our content so
the articles that you read on our website books and sometimes also the magazines that we have the
global citizen explorer and yeah basically yeah a lot of the things that you see written from us
And besides that, I do the education consultations.
And yeah, I'm happy to speak about that today with you.
Thanks for having me on the show.
Yes, thanks for coming to my show.
I really think that, let's call it startenlos.
For me, that sounds, I don't know, more authentic.
I mean, it's die nationality for all the English people out there,
but it's startenlos.
It is what it is.
So I really think that your team and what you've been building is like a one stop for libertarian people because you are really deep diving into topics like flag theory, how to avoid taxation because taxation is theft and all these beautiful things to really create a freedom based lifestyle.
I really appreciated that because when I was younger and when I started traveling with my son, I was too broke to take any kind of help.
And now that I'm not that broke anymore, thanks to Bitcoin.
Thank you so much.
I was actually able to, yeah, to deep dive into this myself and to create a lifestyle that gives me way more freedom.
And I really hope that there are a lot of people out there having the same experience that they are, I don't know,
strumbling upon your website and then they are seeing all these beautiful options.
Because when you start living this freedom lifestyle, I think it's hard to understand how many options you really have.
Because especially when you come from Germany, these things you aren't told in school.
Not at all. It's quite the opposite.
it um so i would like to know why or i mean you already told us what you are doing at uh start
but why are you doing it and what did you do before what happened that you ended up there
are you a libertarian lifestyle do it yourself or what is the fascination behind that yeah well
my background is actually pretty classic so i'm i was a secondary school teacher so i taught in
schools and I also worked at the university and was training future teachers actually and yeah and
and this way I was also like let's put it like this partly responsible for what kind of teachers
ended up in classrooms at some point but yeah I had I had a lifetime fixed job so everything was
pretty much set for me and I could have lived a pretty yeah I think in the perspective of many
people pretty easy life. So things were quite secure. And I also liked the teaching part a lot,
actually. So it was not something that I always hated or that I didn't like my job at all.
Working with kids and seeing them evolve and stuff like that is great. I think it's a beautiful
work, actually. But I think working in schools, you realize that a lot of things in the system
just don't work properly. And the main issue is, in my opinion, that the system tries to squeeze
everyone into some sort of mold, you know, and the individual way of learning, some sort of gets
lost on the way. And yeah, and I mean, how can you actually do it? It's, it's, if you think about
having 30 kids in one classroom, and you want to, you want to provide them the best education that
they can get, how will you do it with 30 kids at the same time in one room? And the truth is
It's actually pretty simple.
You can't.
And I mean, the best you can aim for is maybe, I don't know, 60%, 70% for everyone.
But to really achieve like 100% what's inside of everyone sitting there, it's pretty much impossible because it's an individual job.
And yeah, you have to take care that everyone is working in their pace and their interests, their motivation, their timing, the time of the day and stuff like this.
So, yeah. So if you take everything like this into account, you realize at some point that there is a better way to educate people and to learn, especially. But yeah, and this was actually my main motive to stop this. And I simply didn't want to have the idea of living like this for the rest of my life. And this is why it changed.
And I also live this free lifestyle that you explained before myself right now.
And, yeah, I'm pretty happy about this decision.
I think until today was the best decision of my life.
Or one of the best decisions of my life.
But, yeah, I'm pretty happy with the solution.
And, yeah, I'm also pretty happy that we can provide better education now with the broader system with more options.
We don't have to rely on German laws anymore.
We can see what's out there in the world and just pick the best or what is the best for us.
And yeah, this is pretty much what we do right now.
Nice. I really like that.
Maybe a side quest question.
Side quest.
Why do you think is the German school system like it is?
I mean, we all have all this information about how we learn efficiently and how we also can enjoy learning here and there a little bit because learning is fun if you do it right.
What is the reason why the German system is such a fuck up?
So you're the one who started with the swear words first.
True.
I said it very slowly.
I tried to avoid it.
It wasn't me.
It was impossible.
Yeah, so icebreaker. Icebreaker came from you. I think the German system, so I think it's a cultural thing, first of all. So that system, that the system is so bad is, I think, mainly a cultural thing because you see so many things that don't go well in Germany.
and it just takes ages until they change, if they change at some point.
And everybody knows what's wrong with the system,
but they just don't do it or they just don't want to do it.
I don't know what the reason for that is.
But yeah, it's an old system.
I think it worked in the past.
I think it worked well in the past also,
but it didn't make the shift to the future.
This is the main issue here, I think.
and yeah I think it's also very pragmatic approach that they have in Germany because
you have a lot of people living in the country it's a lot of different cultures that live in
Germany and you just try to educate them and how can you do this you have a limited you have
limited resources you have limited resources in terms of teachers buildings schools and stuff
so what you do you squeeze them into one building and try to put as much as you can into their
brains. So this is what you do basically says.
And it's interesting.
Yeah. It's a pragmatic approach. You know, how can you,
how can you do it if you,
if you have this,
this task and you try to find a solution.
So this is what they do. But the issue is,
and I think everyone knows it, that this is not the best way.
So it might be better to have this approach instead of have no schools.
I mean, we can discuss about that, but,
it's definitely not the best way.
And it's, yeah, it's proven by science that, of course,
it's always an individual process to learn
and that you can just not deliver this with a school system
that you have in Germany right now.
So, yeah.
But very interesting because yesterday I was asked the same question
like I asked you today and I said the very same.
Like, I think it's a cultural thing.
I don't know why people are so comfortable in the situation
in Germany because they know about what is going wrong over there and seems to be the best option
at the moment but what do I know but you know what I'm a teacher as well and I think I I've been
working in my job for eight hours or seven hours or something like that and then I quit I couldn't
do it because I sat in front of all these people and I was like I cannot serve you all it won't
make me happy because I will be sitting at home in the evening and I will be thinking of okay
this didn't serve anyone here this was only surfing serving serving uh the i don't know
the agenda that i have to push through but doesn't make sense i couldn't do it really in a way
interesting so let's talk about like the individual or decentralized approach to learning
because i'm a huge fan of decentralized education it took me years to let go of my
school system in my head and of all these expectations the society has for my child
for me as a mom and all these things and of course all the expectations I had for myself and my child
especially as a teacher I was like when he was five I was like dude he needs to learn how to read
he needs it to like now right now it is the time and he didn't want to so I gave up because he's
really stubborn and I think just one day he was 10 or 9 or something like that He just opened a book and he was just reading flawlessly and I was like dude you can read And he was like yes What are you thinking about me I not stupid Of course I can read And I was like dude why didn you tell me Because in the back of my head it was always like oh my God this kid can read
He's not going to survive.
So this was a long, long de-schooling process for myself when I finally came to that point of, okay, I can trust him in choosing what he's interested in and pulling through with all these crazy ideas he has.
And I just called it decentralized education because he's using sources I would never think about as educational sources.
So I had to be very open minded at some point.
And I see so many benefits.
And now I want to know from you, what is your opinion about this?
Yeah, the thing that we call, I don't know, individualized approach to education.
That's a big topic, right?
It is.
Yeah, it's, I think it's the counterpart of the one size fits it all education, you know,
where everything is just put into one mold. And what we do is the complete opposite.
I think, first of all, it's important to understand how learning actually works. I mean,
if we look at ourselves
and if we see that something
excites us like crazy
we usually can't wait to
keep working on it
sometimes you get so absorbed
in some sort of work
and you love this task that you have
that you can't even sleep
it's like I don't want to waste my time
with sleep I just want to work on this
I want to continue working on what I'm doing here
and
what you do you sleep for
I don't know, four hours, five hours or something,
wake up in the morning, not even brush your teeth
and get straight back to work.
And this is, of course, some sort of extreme example,
but I think it shows how powerful motivation actually is
in the learning process and how strongly it especially
influences your success in learning.
And when you have a look on it like this,
I think it's also clear that we're not all motivated by the same things and we have a different pace and we have different topics that interest us.
But when you have, for example, Paul and Paul enjoys reading crime stories or horror stories or whatever, and you have Mary who prefers, I don't know, horse stories.
I know it's very simple examples, very, very stereotype as well.
But you will find Paul will find it much harder to get motivated the morning if the lesson is today we're reading Tina and her pony farm or something.
And the same applies for Mary if there's a horror story going on something.
And yeah, if you keep this in mind, then motivation plays a huge role in how we learn and how successful we are in education.
I think this is the best way to keep in mind what good education actually is, that something needs to be, as you call it, decentralized.
But I think it should also be focused on the individual.
So it should be not only not centralized, it should also be very focused on the learner itself.
because it makes a lot with your with your memory of course right with your memory with your brain
and with your cognitive resources i know you're a teacher as well so you know what i'm talking about
but um it's um yeah it's very interesting to see what you can actually reach without
putting too much effort into it if you just let learner or learn freely in a way that
that feels natural to them.
Because, I don't know, it's always the same.
If you think about yourself,
if you have to do something
because you have to do something,
the task is boring or it feels even stressful to you.
And this is what we all experienced in school
most of the time, I could say.
It was boring and we had no meaning in it.
And I think this is the main concept that you have
if you learn freely and unschooled,
that you can find meaning in everything what you do.
And I think this is for me the most surprising part also to see how fluent and how easy learning can be if things are just not as controlled as they are in school.
Very interesting to see.
Oh, yes, that's true.
I really like that because I met so many unschoolers now that are now grown up and they don't have this.
Where do I belong?
What is the meaning or purpose of my life thing?
And that made me reflect on the same thing you said.
I was only working because or working on things, different things.
I was only doing things because I had to and never because I wanted to do so or because I enjoyed doing so.
In fact, I had as a child had no time to do things that I would enjoy.
so as growing up that became like the normal status quo to me for me to just do stupid things
that i don't enjoy and that made me think about this is what i learned in school basically you
just have to do all these things and if you enjoy something from this you are lucky if not
bad luck it is indeed indeed yeah but this is the thing you know it's uh i mean everything is
centered in the brain at some point.
So when we set a goal and when we feel motivated,
our brain releases chemicals.
And this doesn't just make us feel good.
It sharpens us.
It sharpens the focus and improves us.
Yeah.
And I think it makes it much easier to push through something
or through challenges also.
But yeah, it's a learning process.
And I think everyone should experience this at some point,
how easy things can be if you're just focused and motivated.
And yeah, if your brain is really like sharp
and focused on something and yeah.
But at the end, everything is like, it's chemistry, you know?
It's just, you need to, yeah, I think you need to push
the right buttons and trigger something correctly.
And then things might go the way they should.
But yeah, at the end, I think this is also our job,
to push these buttons at students to make them be able to learn the best way they can.
So that's what we do in schools or what we did in schools back then.
It's the complete opposite.
We had a curriculum and we were learning by the curriculum.
We had our topics that we had to push through.
And yeah, pretty much the opposite of what actually science says about learning.
So, yeah, I think it's a big chance if you keep in mind what options are actually out there and what you can do besides going to a building at 7.30 in the morning and sit there and hope that every lesson will actually be canceled the same day or something.
So, yeah, it's a lot of chances that we have here.
Sure.
Yeah.
so maybe a random question if you had like unlimited money to change something in the
german school system what would be the number one thing you would tackle right away
i think the first thing i would do is uh i would um i would cancel mandatory schooling and you
don't even need money for that i think for most i think for most of the things you don't need
too much money.
I think
mandatory schooling is the first
thing I would change.
I think I would
have a system that is
more UK
based or English
speaking country based where
everything is a bit more free and where people
can choose themselves what kind of
schooling they want to have for their kids.
Because I think this would
give a lot of families the opportunities
to have a bigger selection of things that you can choose from.
Because right now we have nothing to choose from.
And yeah, I think people who don't want to attend school
or who would like to be taught at home
or can learn better as, I don't know, auto-detect,
I think they should have the chance to do so.
But I think this is something I would do first.
Yeah, it's very hard.
I think the best solution is to have individual learning, individual schooling.
And I think it's not possible to do it in Germany, to be fair.
It's not possible.
True.
Yesterday I talked to a lawyer from the US.
His name is Shaka Mitchell.
And he's working on passing a huge bill.
So every family who's into alternative education,
Like it doesn't matter if it's unschooling, homeschooling, Montessori, just not state school focused.
And they can apply for a fund and they will receive up to 10,000 K per year per child instead of like sending their kids to school.
And I think that's beautiful because I really think a lot of these homeschooling, well-schooling families, they save the state a lot of money to, you know, through not sending their kids to school.
And he's actually working towards that goal that even that the taxpayers can, instead of paying it to the treasury of the US, just paying it to these funds so it can flow directly into the education of free learners.
I think it's beautiful if we had I don't know maybe a little bit more open-minded culture in
Germany that would be a thing because Germans love their taxes and they I don't know if this
would be something but you know what when I talk with my family about free schooling and my son is
12 years old he's not six anymore they are still convinced like 100 percent that this is illegal and
when I'm over in Germany and I visit them,
they are actually afraid that the police will come over
in this five days per year and catch me.
I don't get it.
And all their friends, everyone in this family,
all these people do think I'm a criminal
and I'm running from the system.
And it's completely not acceptable.
And I just wonder...
Well, you're running from the system.
I am so much running from the system.
But the important thing is I think is that they really have this idea in mind that it like a criminalized act of choosing freedom And this is so deep in the German culture because when i talk to someone from france from belgium from anywhere else they are so much more open there oh
this is so interesting tell me more but when i talk to germans about it's like oh my god
yeah how can you do this to your kid and yes but you know this is i think this is also the hardest
part for, I think, for parents in general, if they move from state school to free schooling
or unschooling.
And I think it's not the learning itself that makes it so hard.
I think it's the, I don't like this word, but I think it's the mindset at some point,
the way of thinking that blocks a lot of people.
Because we all grew up in this system where school is like highly structured and you have
everything is fixed and you have your grades and you have homework and I don't know, you
have your exams and everything is structured and once you leave the structure you need to think
yourself and you need to organize yourself and you need to become a bit more creative in how
you achieve things i mean what they have is fear nothing else is it what they are explaining when
they when they tell you is that is that right what you do are you a criminal or whatever i think it's
easy to understand how they think because for them it feels normal this is what they've always
known this is what they've always been told and i think once when there's something someone
turning up and says well there's other options out there then the first reaction of course is to
to block this away yeah i think so when you first step into free schooling if you have never heard
of this before you can also feel scary at first not only for those around you but also for yourself
because you are so brainwashed by German society and German rules
that this is the only system that we have.
And as you said, if you speak with people from Spain or France,
I mean, they have a different system.
I think in Europe there's no system as strict as the one that we have in Germany.
This also has an impact on your mindset in general,
how to see schools and schooling.
And can you really trust the system that is different
to what I've seen all my life?
will my child really learn enough without tests?
And how will it grow up if it has such a different schooling?
But it's also interesting is also that kids also feel the same.
So sometimes they're used to being told what to do.
And then something changes.
It feels also weird for them or scary to them.
So I think fear in this process is supernatural.
I think it's simply because people trust what they know and anything new takes time to build confidence in.
And yeah, but once you see that learning does happen and maybe often in a deeper way and a more joyful way, in a better way, the fear will slowly leave and trust will set in.
And that's when free schooling actually starts to show its real power.
Yeah, but it takes time. And I think it also takes a lot of proof for people before they actually change things for themselves and in general.
Interesting, because I started this podcast because I was afraid of the way I chose.
I mean, there was no other option for me. I was very sure about what I want to do with my kid or not want to do.
but I was so afraid and then I thought okay I need regular conversations about unschooling or
alternative ways to educate and I had nobody around me doing it so I was like okay so I have
to start a podcast to make people talk about it that was the only idea in my head and basically
after I don't know 12 episodes or something like that I felt like wow this was therapy for myself
I loved it. Really nice. And one thing I talked about, yeah, how kids react if you pull them out of that school system, what is happening with them. Because I mean, for parents, it's basically a mindfuck. You have to de-school yourself. You really have to get strong in, yeah, supporting yourself in staying with that decision, not being, yeah.
You have to be full responsible for everything,
every second of your kid's life.
And that is a huge change.
But for kids, I found it quite interesting
because my child was never in school.
So I never experienced that shift.
But a teacher from a democratic school in Berlin
once told me when they have kids from state school,
they normally need about one year to balance themselves out.
They play football for a year.
They do nothing at all.
They don't touch any book, nothing.
and I really I felt that because I after school and university I needed almost 10 years to
be interested in learning again and I don't know maybe you have more experience in this
than me how kids react to being pulled out of the school system I mean yeah that's a lot of fear and
uncertainty but I don't know maybe you have something to share on my story
yeah i think the most obvious thing if you this is why i also say in the consultations that the
best timing is actually between primary school and secondary school to take your kids out or
before schooling in general because i think the the most important thing that you should keep in
mind is that you pull your kids out of their social system and i think this is the most important part
also for them losing their friends and not seeing their friends anymore because um going to school
also means for them seeing your friends seeing your peer group uh hanging out with them playing
with them and um yeah pulling them out from there right in the middle um let's say i don't know
sixth grade or third grade or something like this um it's not the best um the best solution i would
same yeah sometimes you cannot change it because you have you don't always have one child maybe have
three kids and they're all in different stages and then you cannot avoid it but this is what i
generally say if there is a chance and if you think about taking your kids out of school or not
you don't want your kids to attend school and do it before they have their first day in school
not only because of the social environment,
but also because the brain gets used to how they learn in schools.
And if they learned how they learned there,
it's very hard to pull them back to a natural way
where you just learn by motivation,
where you learn by certain triggers,
where you learn by your senses.
You see something, you feel something, hear something,
and then you get interested in it.
Just the usual way that we all learned at the beginning of our lives.
and try to find a good timing for this
because it has an impact on several things,
not only, as I said, social life,
but also cognitive things.
And yeah, as you say,
whenever you change something so drastically,
it's completely normal that you are also influenced
by your surroundings.
So I think if you have a supporting system around you,
if you have a supporting environment,
it makes it much easier to make decisions like this.
So this is also a reason why I also say try to find communities wherever you are to get in touch with them and exchange experiences that they made so that you don't feel as alone with your decision because you are not.
And it's just a matter of, at the end, it's just a matter of how you approach these kind of things, I would say.
Yeah.
Nice.
so maybe a little bit about your work what are like the most frequent questions that the families
bring to you when knocking on your door and telling you let's travel the world what are we
going to do no um because i know a lot of families who who never brought their kids to school like
this is the main peer group we have so for me it's hard to imagine bringing your kids to school
and one day you were like, no, I have to change this.
So I bet there are different questions than I would have maybe.
I think there's one main question, one big main question that they all have.
Or let's say, I would say 90%.
And this is how can I get my kid out of school?
Because usually it's not that they start with the idea of having their kids unschooled.
It's usually they make better experiences and then they want to get their kid out of there.
And this is the main question that I get.
How can I get my kid out of school?
So how can I avoid mandatory schooling in Germany?
What are the options?
And then we look into that.
So usually it's a lot of life planning.
If this is the only reason why you, for example, have to leave Germany,
because if you want to exit mandatory schooling,
you need to deregister and you need to leave the country.
But I think this is the main question that I get.
Like people living in Germany made bad experiences or see that their kid has struggles in school for whatever reason.
And they want to change that.
And here comes the point.
The German system doesn't allow any other form of schooling than what they offer in state schools.
I mean, there's a lot of private schools also, but they are also very tied to the German rules.
So often the only solution that they have if they cannot leave the country or if they don't have, for example, grandfather, grandmother in another European country, they have to see what options we have in the private school market.
Let's put it like this.
Often it is Montessori that gives them a bit of relief or the Steiner schools, Waldorf school.
yeah but as i always say that the the options in germany are quite limited so
we have to see what we can do but if we have someone who wants to indeed travel the world or
have an international lifestyle or they're expats anyway then you have so many options out there it's
yeah more or less unlimited i would say and yeah but this is the main question indeed so i wish i
could say something something else but mostly mostly it's um yeah it's it's usually something
negative that happens and then they want to change that change that that's sad yeah it is kind of sad
but it is yeah but i mean well that's also what we're doing with this work right we try to make
people a bit more sensitive to what the options are before they choose for some sort of option
because when you I would say 90 of people in Germany don even make a choice for schooling They just take their kids to the school that closest to them So this is actually the choice that they make for
the education of their
kids. They just take them to
the school that's closest to where
they live.
Makes sense at some point, but
it's not the best way to
find the best
education for your kid. This is
the point.
And yeah, maybe this is our work here to make people a bit more sensitive to how important this choice actually is for their kids.
True.
Yeah.
And you know what I think is quite impressive that I know a lot of German families that left Germany without having anywhere, anybody to go to, just while traveling the world.
to just avoid German school system.
It's so bad that they just left their home country.
And of course, in other countries,
you have different options to avoid schooling.
But in Germany, I think the number is rising.
And to see that people actually just leave their home country
to avoid state school, that speaks volumes, I think.
I think it's very interesting.
And are there only German families coming to you for help
or is it an international thing?
i think it's a german uh speaking thing so i also have people from i have people from austria as
well but let me think i think i've never had someone from switzerland so they must have good
choices over there oh they have yeah but um the yeah i think mainly it's it's germans because
in germany the system is just so strict and but sometimes i also have people from austria who
to come to me and ask how they can avoid the mandatory exam that they have every year.
So in Austria, it's a bit more flexible.
You can more or less homeschool.
And then you have an exam every year where you have this, they call it externistenprüfung.
It's just an exam where they check if you are online with what they do in schools when you're present in school.
But even those tests can be so disturbing to people that they want to change that and leave Austria as well.
So then you also try to find solutions where you can like properly unschool and learn freely.
But yeah, mainly it's Germans because if you compare the systems in Europe, it's just one of the worst.
I think it's the worst, actually.
I know it sounds bad, but I think it is the worst because it's so strict.
And, yeah, this is why most people come actually from Germany.
That's interesting.
I had someone on the show and he said the only other school system that is worse is actually North Korea.
Every other school system is better than the German one.
I don't know that.
I didn't experience it personally.
Yeah, me neither.
We should travel there.
yeah let's travel yeah but i can't talk about traveling yeah because i really most people i met
yeah using like flag theory to avoid school state there most of them are from germany at least from
what i yeah from the people i met when traveling so let's maybe talk about flag theory because i
think you guys your team from startenlos you mastered the flag theory uh you are the number
one thing or the number one resource to go to in germany when you need information about the
flag theory and i myself lived um and now living again according to flag theory to avoid state
schooling in any country not only germany but all the other countries as well i think it's it's a
genius hack because it combines running from the state and having like cultural exposure for your
kids at the same time so i think it's beautiful maybe you can say a few words about this how that
works together with avoiding the state school system yeah it's indeed i i completely agree
it's the best of both worlds more or less because it doesn't only give you the chance to escape it
also gives you the chance to have much better options and also the best options that are out
there for you. And this all is very, very individual. It's a completely individual approach.
And yeah, if you look on it from an education perspective, I mean, the flag theory is also about
founding a business and second citizenships and all these kind of things. It's not only about
education. Education is just one of these flags. You will see that you don't have to limit yourself
to just one country's school system.
Yeah, you're missing out on so many opportunities
if you'd stay with one school system.
Because around the world,
there are systems that do things so differently.
Like, for example, Finland focusing more on creativity.
I don't know.
Singapore is stronger in math and science in general.
And then you have, of course,
completely different schooling philosophies,
like the ones that we have also in Germany,
Montessori and stuff,
but also completely new systems, private schools, completely new approaches,
approaches with AI teachers, no teachers at all, learning by yourself, unschooling, homeschooling,
whatever you want to do.
Like all the options are out there.
You just have to take them.
And this is what the flag theory more or less teaches you.
If you look on your options internationally, you will find the best solutions, best practices.
instead of staying with one single model.
You know, it's when you stay with one system,
there is no chance to find what actually fits you.
And so I think the best possible education
is indeed something that you can find with the flag theory.
Indeed, that you go out there
and find the best solution for yourself.
There is no one size fits at all,
even in the flag theory.
It's completely individual.
And it means also asking yourself what,
and this is an important question, actually,
what's out there internationally, globally,
that matches my needs, my child's needs,
and also both of our personalities.
And for example, maybe it's bilingual schooling or something,
or it's international schooling, online learning,
combined with traveling, whatever it is,
It's a big chance to go out there and find a solution for yourself
instead of sticking to one weakness, like one weak system
that tries to be the best solution to you,
which is not actually.
Flag theory, I think, is the thing if you want to have the best of the two worlds,
especially for the educational topics.
because the chances are so much higher.
I mean, as I say, I don't want to demonize the German school system.
I think it's quite bad, but at the end, it may fit to some people.
Yeah, completely fine.
But I think the chances are just so much higher
that you find your personal best setup
where your child not only learns but actually blooms, you know,
is when you go outside and find something that is beyond one country,
that is beyond one system.
And yeah, just go on the lookout, go on the hunt and see what is possible.
And this is what the flag theory does, not only in education,
but also in your residency, your citizenship, your banking,
your business and all these things.
So yeah, it's always finding the best solution for yourself.
and at the end giving you more freedom for yourself and for your life.
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, we are living beings too.
And sometimes when I hear families talking about what's the best for their kids,
I'm like, dude, do I have a right to enjoy life as well?
Because flag theory is not only about the kids.
It's also about enjoying your life as a parent.
because it makes it much easier to parent if your kid is happy and in a safe environment.
So you do offer also like flexible learning plans for kids.
And what is your thought behind this?
Because, I mean, I'm a radical unschooler.
We don't have to discuss that any plan for me is complete bullshit.
But I do believe that a lot of people out there need plans because it makes them feel safe.
and that is perfectly fine.
So I would like to know more about how you do this
and why you do this and what your approach is.
As a teacher, I'm listening closely because I love plans.
Yeah, the approach is actually exactly what you already said.
It's to give people some sort of scaffold,
some sort of structure that they can hang on,
that they can rely on more or less
and where you can just, how you said it,
tick box your achievements.
And some people just need that.
And it's completely fine, as you say.
I think it's also possible to do without these kind of plans.
I mean, they are also,
sometimes they're very close to existing curricula, actually.
So they more or less function like a curriculum.
They give you the structure.
They give you visibility about what you have achieved already.
And then you just hang tight to that plan and go step by step.
And sometimes it's much easier to, there's a plan behind all of this.
And sometimes you feel like, is my kid actually learning something?
And then you can just check your list and you see your own curriculum.
And you see, well, yes, it does.
So we started with this and now we are at this point.
And I can also ask my child about this and that topic and it understands it, it knows it already.
And then you have some sort of relief also for yourself, knowing that what you do is the right way and that you can actually see the achievements that you have.
So I think sometimes, especially when you're not a teacher and you want to have a very free learning environment, can be good to have some sort of orientation.
And also it depends on your goals. I mean, if you want to have your kids have a degree at some point, it also makes sense to learn what they test at some point when you want to make some degree.
wherever you do it.
So it's good to have some sort of preparation for that.
Not only a year before the accident,
exam or the test but in general that you have this in mind that something might come at some
point where you have to prepare for so you can do this with these plans it just gives you as i said
some sort of scaffold you have something to to rely on yeah this is the main the main reason why
we do it it doesn't fit every plan of course not every life plan not every plan for how people want
to educate their children but in many cases it does in my opinion and this is why we do it
nice let's talk about qualifications because um you already mentioned it and that is the number
one thing my family is afraid of that he will never have any kind of qualification to go to
university college whatever you may call it and i think that's that's just i don't know fake news
because sorry the dog is really annoying and he's finding things to throw around all the time
and there are so many universities that do accept unschoolers and homeschoolers without
any kind of qualification because you have to write an essay you have to prove this or that
and the landscape out there it's wild but from a german perspective of course it is quite difficult
Maybe you can share your experience because I think you are quite, I don't know, you are
obviously more into this than me.
So I'm learning something to tell my family.
I mean what we really need to do is ease the Germans mind you know to bring them in peace And you can bring them in peace usually with a clear solution
And what I usually say is Germany has, and this you can easily Google also,
they have something that is called external examination.
So you can make any degree that you want in Germany by making some examinations.
It's not that easy.
you have to apply for that and you have to give some sort of proof that you are that you are a
proper candidate for this for this exam but at the end it means if you are unregistered from
from germany if you don't live in germany anymore you actually have the chance to make exams by
going to these usually it's a couple of days exams where you just give proof of what they do at
the final exams in the schools and then you can then you can get a complete normal German degree
at the end which with which you can go to to the university you can study and you don't have to
attend any regular school for it the most important thing is that you are coming from outside this is
why it's called external examination that you're coming from outside of Germany that you lived
outside of Germany and now want to make this this exam so and yeah and if you pass you receive the
same degree certificate as someone who went to the traditional school system and I think this is a
great option to ease the minds of German families and I think it's also great options for for families
who live abroad you know or for kids who are learning outside of the standard system and at at some point realize they want to become a doctor or a lawyer or whatever something that is controlled by the German government then you need to have this sort of degree So I think this
is also something that you always have to keep in mind, that your kid may develop at some point
the wish to get a job that is controlled by the government. And yeah, I think this is the easiest
way to open the minds of people when they tell you, but your kid won't have any degree. What can
we do at the end of, I don't know, secondary school, for example? And you say, yeah, we may go to the
exams or we may not. Depends on what the future goal is. And then you have a lot more to offer
in your argumentation with German people than just saying, yeah, we'll work out or something like this.
Or there are a lot of people who did this route already.
So I think this is the easiest way.
That's beautiful.
And the world is a big place.
I think there are so many options to just go somewhere else
if you can't make it in Germany.
And I think a lot of Germans I met on the way,
the kids never went back to Germany when they grew up.
you have to think about this as well.
Maybe the kids don't wanna go back
because they wanna raise their kids
as free as they have been raised maybe.
Yeah.
Could happen.
Yeah, it's likely to happen actually
because there are more options out there than Germany I don wanna say it too loud but there is a lot more to explore and experience out there than Germany
I don't want to speak too bad about Germany,
but I'm just saying that there is a lot of things out there
that you should take freedom in your own hands,
that you just explore and go outside and see what's out there
and find the best solution for yourself.
and for your kids, of course, in terms of education.
But it all crops down to go out and explore.
Oh, yes.
Find yourself, explore yourself.
Exactly.
I love it.
I wanted to say exactly the same.
Very good.
It's all about exploring and not only for the kids,
adults as well.
I mean, the world is a nice place
and there's so much more to explore
than just staying put in one country.
so yes chris thank you so much for all the information you shared uh i really think it
was a refreshing take on what options are out there and i don't know we are not bashing the
german school system enough i think but we did it a little bit so i'm happy with that part of
yeah and yeah we try to behave here yes really but especially from a teacher's perspective i think
I agree.
We did really good stuff.
Well, yeah.
Thanks for having me too.
Thanks for having me too to the show.
And I hope things got a bit clearer for people who are listening to this.
So, yeah.
Thanks again.
I hope so too.
Nice.
Okay.
Let's see.