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Enjoy the conversation.
Rigel, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
Thank you for having me on.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, uh, finally!
Yeah.
I think we talked about this like, I even maybe like two years ago or
something, you were like, want to do this?
And just I think too busy doing different things and never happened, right?
yeah.
But we figured we'd do an in person one,
Mm-Hmm.
Because I remember the first time I saw you back in 2019, like, uh,
my first time here, and like, the starting gun for me for all of this
crazy life that has followed on later.
So, uh, and here's this guy on stage, uh, playing death metal songs for
All.
finance and nerd people.
So, yeah, yeah, it's, uh, I thought it was absolutely awesome, so yeah, I'm
not the only metalhead in here, like,
I remember when I, when I put that in the presentation, I was
like, is this going to go down?
I was just going to go down, right?
And then everyone like clapped after I played that video.
I was like, oh, cool.
No, it was super based.
Thank you.
Uh, like, uh, what's the name of your band again?
Uh, so I play in a band called Diocletian.
Um, I used to play in a band called Dawn of Ezel, but the band I play in now is
a band called Diocletian, which is like, I guess you would call it like the,
you know, metal's got like a zillion sub genres and stuff, but like, you
would call it like war metal, I guess.
War metal.
War metal is the thing, right?
Yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, what's your story?
Like give our listeners your story.
How, um, who are you and, uh, what, what turned you on to death metal and what
turned you on to Bitcoin and is there a connection between the two and all of
Oh my God.
Okay.
This is a very long winded.
How do I summarize this pretty well?
Okay.
So yeah, I'm, I'm Roger Walsh.
I go by Coinsurance Ed on Twitter and, and Telegram and these, a
lot of these kinds of platforms.
Um, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, played music and stuff since I was, um,
17 years old, you know, been a band where, you know, I'm from New
Zealand, that's where that was from.
We were the first metal band to ever get out of the country, really, even like
Australia, um, let alone, um, Europe and the States and things like that.
So, you know, we, we did quite a few, uh, four albums, I think it was, with my
old band Dawn of Azel before we split up, um, and, yeah, I never, never, Really,
really massively big, but, um, you know, like, in New Zealand it's quite a bit
bigger than we were, um, outside of that, and certainly Europe or the States.
Um, the same time, when I turned 21, I joined the police.
I was in the police for 10 years, um, at the same time as this was going on,
and if you search my name, you'll find some interesting news reports about some
trouble I had for that kind of reason.
Um, so, so that's maybe my background.
Background with that part, we'll shift forward to maybe when I first got into
Bitcoin in 2014, um, and so for me, what got me interested in Bitcoin was, as I
said, I used to be in the police, um, and one day, you know, I think I've heard
of Bitcoin thrown around, I just I was reading a news article about the, um,
Silk Road trial, and this is when Russell Brook was getting sentenced, and this is
like after I left the police and things like this, and um, it just blew my mind
when I read that, it's like, because I think most people don't really, or
didn't, or can't quite grok maybe the way that it makes It's me, in the sense of
like, you have this drug market selling.
Um, whatever you liked, you know, under the eyes of the FBI and all these
guys, and there was nothing they could do for years, and this, I was like,
wow, man, this is going to be straight away, I thought this is how Russia and
North Korea are going to get around sanctions and stuff, as it seems they
are doing today, you know, so to me this is like nuclear weapons grade money.
So my interest actually was, was in Bitcoin, but also in the darknet
market, so I just got on there and had a look, and I, And that was what really
interested me, but of course, like most people that play around in the darknet
markets, you, you start, okay, what is this Bitcoin thing that I'm using
and sending and start looking into it.
And look, I'd never been a finance kind of guy.
I mean, um, like I said, I joined the police rather relatively early on.
They've got a very good superannuation scheme where, like, you put in a dollar,
the government puts in two dollars.
And so, to me, I'd looked at investing and shares and things a couple of
times, and it never made sense because I've got the best There's no better
place that I could do is just put more money in that fund that the government
will match dollar for dollar, right?
So this is the first time I've ever looked at anything Really about investing and you
know and obviously as you start thinking about this Well at that time when I got
into Bitcoin and bought my stuff was around 200 bucks It just right at the end
of the 2014 kind of crash and you know at the time I thought like wow man this might
be worth a thousand dollars some some year later some some years later, right?
You know so so I started putting pretty much Everything I had which the time
was not a lot because this is after I left the police and I actually quite a
bit of trouble Transitioning from that into like some sort of civilian career.
I was like I found it quite hard to find, like, uh, work, and so I
was working self employed, and I didn't have a lot of money, but I put
everything I had into Bitcoin, because to me, it just made total sense, um.
So yeah, that was 2014, um, obviously fast forward a couple of years, 2017
is around, and now Bitcoin is there.
Close to 20 grand, you know, I've got, got lots of, I'm fucking rich, you know,
um, so, so what I, what I did is I, I was like, man, I spend so much time
thinking and talking about Bitcoin, I really want to get involved in the
space, but, you know, what, I'm not a software developer, what can I do?
So I actually ended up buying some Trezors, and just through good luck, when
I bought them, Bitcoin was around 10k.
Um, and I bought like, something like, I think, 200 or something treasures
and ledges, um, and I sold all of them in a month in New Zealand,
which is a tiny country, you know, which, which blew my mind, right?
So then that happened, and this was like February, and I remember it was December,
I had mass massive orders, January pitted off, and then like February, there was
just nothing, and you know, the price is going down, the thing, you know, so
I was just in the right place at the right time, and got lucky, and I had
all this money out of this, and it was in In a, in a business account that
I'd have to pay taxes on, obviously, if I didn't get rid of it, right?
So, to my thing as well, I could pay myself a salary and pay tax on it,
but what's smarter is, hmm, how can I use this money to make the next
step and jump to the next thing?
So I thought, well, let's go to a bunch of Bitcoin conferences and see if there's any
Uh, match for my kind of skills, right?
So I'd never, I'd never gone to, I've been to like meetups in New Zealand, but
I had no idea like what it really looked like out there in the real world, right?
So I went to, um, like a couple of, I went to like an Australian
big Crip, uh, blockchain one, which was like just total trash.
And then I went to, um, you know, token 2049.
You heard of that one?
It's like a still going.
It's like a real shit coin kind of conference thing that was in, um,
rings a tiny bell, rings a tiny bell.
Yeah.
um, it's in, it was in Hong Kong or something, right?
And, and I remember I went to that and it was, it was cool, right?
But it was still, you know, I was still in this world where, you know, obviously
I was familiar with Bitcoin, but I dabbled with, you know, altcoins and stuff
like this and, and perhaps the way that you or I would look at Bitcoin now, I
think was still quite a new, new thing.
New idea in those times, right?
There wasn't this really well nuanced ideology about how
to view this kind of stuff.
So I went there and I was kind of figuring this out and I mean, this is cool, but
it feels a little kind of creepy sleazy.
The next one I went to was like Konsensus in New York, which was at
the time, that was the biggest Bitcoin crypto conference you would say ever.
And there was like, 3, 000 people or something.
And I remember at that conference, I was like, uh, there was a lot of,
you know, all sorts of Ethereum and things there, right, but there was a
blockstream room at this conference.
And I remember, like, I felt like, man, this place feels so sleazy and so dirty
and everyone seems like, Super sketchy, but then you go to the Blockstream room,
and I was like, these are the guys that, you know, I just clicked, like when you
meet them and you see this, and so I think this is a really important thing
for people that don't go to conferences, that when you come, like a lot of this
stuff, when you just see it with your own eyes and talk to people directly,
it makes a lot more sense than online.
So I went to that, um, and then I met, um, what's his name, Erik, last name is
sketchy, but he's, uh, works on Bitcoin Fabric, used to be at Blockstream.
He told me, um, go to Building on Bitcoin and go to Honeybadger.
And so from then I started going to conferences, when I went to building
on Bitcoin, I kind of talked about this in my talk today, it was like
I wasn't a software developer, but I saw Adam Fiskor and Nicholas Doria
presented Wasabi and BTC Pay Server, and I realized like, wow man, I thought
before that Bitcoin software development is all about like some super computer
nerd guys and like Bitcoin core and only this real high level stuff.
But I realized, man, these guys just made their own app on Bitcoin
that really made a real difference.
And wow, you know, I could do that if I were to put my mind to it.
So I came back straight away, got into a Python coding course and just
like really, really luckily, you know, I went really crazy on this.
And, um, then come December, Jimmy Song came to Australia to do
the, um, the programming course.
I applied and got on that, um, and I was like really out of my depth,
but I, you know, but I managed to keep up enough to write it.
Um, and so this was like maybe six months after, you know, six months
ago, I didn't know anything about like coding or anything like that.
Um, And so just by pure luck, also, you know, I was really, relatively well
networked in the New Zealand, Auckland Bitcoin scene, and I went to a meetup
and there was a guy there who I tried, knew kind of loosely, um, that I knew
had a, like a really small exchange in New Zealand, and I was talking about,
he's like, Oh, what are you doing?
I was like, Oh, I was just building this API in Python.
It's like, Oh, we're building out our API.
Do you want to come and help?
And I was like, Yeah, so at the time I was working a job where I'm working four
days a week and I had the Mondays off.
And so I just started working there on Mondays and then split with the
ex girlfriend and I was really happy in New Zealand and felt like I've
really got to get out of here, right?
So I was thinking even if I have to like sell Bitcoin to leave,
I've just really got to get out of New Zealand because I feel like
there's just no future for me here.
So I said to them, okay, look, hey, I had a friend that was living in Bali.
I said, look, hey, I'm moving to Bali.
I really don't want to leave this job.
And I really Appreciate what you give me, but I've got to do this.
If you let me work remote, I would really happily work remote,
but I understand if you don't.
They're like, sure, yeah, have a full time job.
So I did that, started doing that, um, COVID happened, um, ended up in Mexico as
a cause of that, and in, for the Jeremy Songz course, there's like an alumni
telegram group, um, Jan Pritzker jumped in there and he said like, hey, we're
looking for developers at Swan, and, you know, and I said, hey, I, you know, I do
that, and the tech stack was very similar to what I was already working on, and,
um, I got a job there, and so for the last, up until, up until, uh, three weeks
ago, I was working at Swan for three and a half years, I think it was employee
number, 10 or 11 or something there.
Um, and that's pretty much it.
I think that's, sorry long thing, but I think I covered
all the, all the bases there.
And then I give some talks at conferences here.
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great story.
And there are many similarities to mine.
Like I also have experience of the shit coin conference before I went to Rega
in 2019, but were you here in 2018?
Yeah.
That was the first, because was, uh, when I said when I met, um, Eric, he
told me building on Bitcoin and then, um, honey Beg are the ones, so I,
I pretty much, that was the last of the company money was that one there.
And that, that one they were talking about HCPP and I was like, oh, can I go to that?
But it was just.
Flying home, New Zealand, which is like a two hour, two day journey, then
coming back two weeks later and paying for all the stuff, I didn't manage to
make it, but like, that was the first, first time, the last conference I
went on that thing, and that really, I mean, it was an amazing conference.
So this, this has always been an amazing conference, you know.
uh, I saw your talk here last year, uh, and it was really, really good,
like awesome about Bitcoin cultures, right, and different subcultures and,
uh, what these subgroups and what happens in a decentralized system,
uh, and also like we've been chatting during this conference about, uh,
These, these effects, like how we find our own in groups and how, how people
cling onto the extremes here and there.
And, uh, can you expand a bit on that and, and what, what do you think is
missing from conferences in general and what makes Honeybadger stick out
as a high signal one and all of that
I mean, well, okay, so three questions there.
So to talk about the talk, um, yeah, and it's called Bitcoin Psychopaths vs.
Bitcoin Sociopaths, and if you Google it, you can find the written thing
and the video and view it yourself.
But basically, what I talked about is, to return to my story, right, when I
started coming to these conferences, I realized how much this had, the Bitcoin
world had in common with the music world in the sense of, The personalities,
the little subgroups, the way that things evolved, like I just saw a lot
of things that clicked because to me really like Bitcoin is like a Harley
Davidson for computer nerds, right?
It's like this kind of like subculture where that people are involved in
and I feel like a lot of people who are in Bitcoin, like I have this
experience of being these weird kind of outside groups and how this works.
I think a lot of people that are in Bitcoin this is the first kind of
really Out there, different thing they've had in their life and they,
you know, they're like blows in mind.
They're like, wow, this is so cool, but they don't realize how a lot of these
idiosyncrasies are very much the same.
I'd imagine the same if you were like a Trekkie or you're
into something like that.
There's a lot of the same sort of politics, right?
So, so the talk is really talking about how, um, How, uh, Bitcoin, in my opinion,
is like a subculture or counterculture, the same way that, um, you know, metal
music would be an example, but, you know, there's plenty of things like this
where people have a niche interest, but it's also kind of a little bit against
society, right, if you know what I mean, the whole idea of Bitcoin is you're
trying to defund the state, and so it's kind of like, it's not, it's not like a
really dangerous out there kind of thing, but, you know, the kind of thing that
it's based on is not like a subculture.
It's not in total alignment with society, I think,
inherently contrarian?
Exactly, yeah, exactly, which does attract a lot of contrarians, right?
Um, so, so the whole talk was, was looking at, okay, if you look at subcultures,
how do they get involved or in, uh, immersed in the traditional system, right?
There's plenty of things.
Let's take rap music, for example.
You know, where you had, uh, Dr.
Dre in, uh, NWA, and now he's like, You know, selling Beats
headphones and a very nice commercial established businessman, right?
Or another good one that I like to use is like, um, weed, or
like the gay community, right?
At one point, these were very out there things, and now they're very normal and
very accepted, and they're almost like Almost a little forced on you, right?
In a lot of ways, as opposed to like being an outcast.
So, you know, when things become normalized and when they get bigger and
bigger and bigger, if they catch on, eventually they kind of get watered down
as they get integrated into society.
And the same thing I think is already happening in Bitcoin, um, and it's
affecting the culture of Bitcoin.
And I don't think you can really change that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's
inevitable, but it's something that I think we need to discuss and look
at, okay, well, if you Some of these other things there, how they lost, what
made them powerful and transformative in the first place, because they were
kind of revolutionary movements, right?
And they got watered down and commercialized, right?
So I think the same thing is happening to Bitcoin right now,
and you can't really stop it.
This is, if you just look at history, this is what happens, but there is a
conversation to be had about how can we navigate this as best as we can, right?
So that's, that's more or less a summary of that kind of
talk and what that was about.
Now, what was the,
Yeah,
was the other two
of a long question.
I mean,
Maybe we can, yeah, maybe we can just stay on
Are you asking about conferences?
Like you said, like, uh, what I think about Bitcoin conferences and what
I think I like about HoneyBadger.
Well, what I like about HoneyBadger is that, like, I think nowadays, um, the
conference thing, kind of to speak to what I just was talking about, right?
As this gets bigger, it becomes more commercial and, and, um, things get
kind of watered down for people that are, Casual participants, right?
The people early on in the movement, like, you know, if you're there in 2017,
2018, you're really hardcore, right?
But if you look at the way they're doing, say, Bitcoin Nashville at the moment,
like, it's a very different thing.
It's very not watered down, very commercial, and very one
kind of one minded, right?
And what I like about Honeybadge and what I have so much respect for with
this conference is that, um, They seem to, at least, you know, I've never had
this conversation directly, but this is my impression, is that, remember
in 2019, that was the biggest Bitcoin conference in the world, and I think
there was probably 600, 800 people, right?
And, um, you know, things, things have got bigger and stuff since then, and
maybe, you know, this could have been a bigger conference, I mean, certainly
you would imagine it could have been as big as, say, BTC Prague is, right?
You know, but they seem to have had the idea of, like, let's just keep it at a
particular level and not go too far and too hard, because in my humble opinion
I think, like, the Bitcoin National Conference is an absolute abomination,
it's a circus, you know what I mean?
And it's all there just to, like, make it as loud and big as possible, but what
is the message that is getting diluted and what is getting presented to these
newcomers there is, to me, is very much getting away from what I believe the
message of Bitcoin should be, right?
Or at least it's not even a very nuanced message no matter what it is, right?
it's inflation,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, but this is, exactly, it's dilution inflation.
It's the same thing as when it happens to your money, it happens to culture.
I mean, I've never thought about that, but that's a very good, very
good way to phrase it, I think.
So, you know, when it, when it comes to conferences, I was just saying this
before, is, um, beyond, beyond the fact of just making it big and watering it
down, the other thing I think is, like, the narrative is very, very stale, right?
Um, you know, it's all still is and has been for, you know, ever since 2018,
2019, it's all about the narrative.
Sound money and, and the moneys of Bitcoin.
Right.
Which of course it is.
And you know, it's, in my opinion, the best money in the world.
But I think, you know, we've still made those arguments pretty well by this point.
Right.
You know, there's so much stuff that's been written and I
think it is really good stuff.
Right.
They're all good messages.
But, they've been said, they're done, they're written, right, you know,
and you don't want to hear the same guys giving the same talk every year
over and over, which is what these conferences are, I think it's like
the Rolling Stones, you know, playing their greatest hits, right, the Rolling
Stones have some really amazing songs, but if you've gone and seen them play
live, playing their greatest hits ten times, you're going to, uh, I think
I'll skip it this year, right, you know.
So, to what I see happening here, um, a little, and that I think, I just can't
believe this isn't more of a thing, is like, if you want this movement
to succeed, and you as a conference promoter want people to come to your
conferences, you've got to keep it new and interesting and shift things up, right?
And so you've got to find people out there in the community.
In the, in the community out there who, who aren't speaking at conferences,
aren't big, aren't famous, right?
If we were to turn the analogy of like a music, uh, festival, you know, there's,
there's bands that, that aren't known, but if you gave them a chance and used your
festivals as a way to expose them to more people, they could get bigger, and it's
in your interest, because if you're having the same bands play every year, people
don't want to come to your conference.
Festival again.
But if you can help this new blood come up, then it's in your interest because
you can put them on the stage and you can bring people to your event, right?
And I think the same thing should be done, uh, for this.
I mean, obviously, I think it should be done for the, for
the good of Bitcoin, right?
There's, it's not just the money in this.
There's many different aspects to Bitcoin.
It's a very interesting, you know, I, I say it's like the,
uh, uh, Rorschach's test, right?
Like what you see in the inkblot reflects more about you and I, but
we can look at the same thing and see two totally different things, right?
Yeah.
So I think it's in the interest of Bitcoin to get people to flesh these
out, these narratives, and give them an opportunity to do it and to get it out in
people's heads and for them to hear this.
But it's also, um, it's also in the interest of them as
like conference promoters.
Like I said, if it's just the same people all the time, it's going to peter out.
And I feel like Honeybadger is one of the few places that's trying to do that,
Yeah, and I mean, in my perspective, HoneyBadger, two years ago, was
my first ever conference, right?
And so, I mean, that's already my newness in this space
compared to you guys, but still.
HoneyBadger has been fantastic for me from that perspective, and
like, the signal, that's the focus.
But we talked to Max Kai about this not long ago.
About how is the Latvian community doing and Honeybadger hasn't really
focused on growing the local community.
It's been bringing the signal into one place and everyone learned
from each other and all this and it's a fantastic event for Bitcoin,
but that's that's one style of.
And then there's these other ones that are all about, uh, I mean, the American
ones, especially like the Nashvilles and all this, those are, you know, these
entertainment fests and all this, and I think they've also brought this to
Amsterdam here in Europe, but I think Prague and Madeira here this last year
were both examples of conferences that went a bit bigger, but have also have a
layer of the local adoption, and I think those types of conferences are Those
are important for a different reason.
Like the, the one that, uh, Bulgaria is the example that I use, uh, I use a lot,
like that, that, uh, they, they do a good thing there to build the local adoption.
And so get some speakers, get some international presence to, to sort
of show here's what this is, right?
But, but focus on the local side of it and building the adoption in that locale.
I think that's quite the idea.
on diversity and inclusion,
That's so
mean, I think it's true, like, you know, as a New Zealander, we're kind
of in this interesting position where, you know, it's a very Western kind
of culture, but we're somewhere in between Europe and America, right?
So, if you're European, you obviously, you're kind of biased and polarized
to a European way of doing things, Americans are the other, and we're
somewhat in the middle, right?
So we see them both.
From different angles, and there's pros and cons from both, and I'm sure I'm
going to offend some American people saying this, but I'm just going to say it.
European conferences are a thousand times fucking better than American ones.
And I've seen almost none that I feel like really did a good job.
I mean, I think something like TabConf does it well, but I think
technical conferences are a slightly different kind of thing, right?
You know,
different beast.
all there about technology, but if you're trying to do something
where People talk of talking about more general people stuff, right?
American things is just all about money, all about being loud, and there's just no
soul, right, as I feel in those things.
Like, big and commercial and plastic.
No soul, and I feel like Europeans just seem to be able to do that much better.
Sorry to any Americans watching this, but that's been my impression.
Honey Badger clearly has the soul, and I mean, uh, yeah, I, like, the local
adoption thing, that's not a dig, it's just not what they've decided to focus
on, so it's, uh, yeah, um, I think we, uh, I hope, I hope this conference, uh, I'll
be attending every year, um, you know,
Yeah.
And that's, that's why I love to see so many Americans over in Europe, like this
last year, uh, first of all, Madeira, a ton of Americans came over, both
speakers and attendees and uh, also.
Uh, Prague, and here, like, you have, uh, quite a few here too, and it's very,
and quite a few high level ones, and it's good to have them here to give them,
give them a taste of what this is like.
to, like, spread it around, I mean, to me, the whole, I mean, I'm a guy that likes
to have a drink and hang out with people and things like that, so, you know, it's
a big party, really, a conference, in a lot of ways, you know, and so, I mean,
I think I enjoy that element of it, but again, you know, I think there's just
so much value in, you know, You know, we all talk online and stuff and you,
you know, I, I see what you're writing to someone else and things like that.
But to, to be able to humanize and talk to some of these people, and
some of them you meet them and you realize, oh, this guy isn't actually
such a dickhead after all, I guess, you know, or, or the opposite, right?
This person that you think is really high integrity or whatever, and you
meet them, you're like, man, this person, I have a very bad feeling
about this kind of person, right?
So I think that's a very important thing is like, I mean, sure, if you're
a casual participant, you know, maybe a conference ticket is expensive as it
is, let alone flying to somewhere else.
But if you're really enmeshed in this world, I think you owe it on yourself to
go and like physically meet people and there's just such a value in that which
um, is difficult to articulate, you know?
Yeah,
hard to find new ideas and new, uh, uh, new angles to view this.
I mean, I, I had writer's block for the longest time before
starting the new book and before I had ideas good enough to pursue.
And it's, uh, it's getting increasingly harder with each book, of course,
because there's only this so many times you can say the same thing,
I know the feeling of, of like, uh, you know, like I'm thinking about,
because I've, I've been invited as I've been told to speak here every year.
Um, and so I'm thinking, okay, when I went to about next year, I'm like, Oh man, like
what to do two or three things, right.
It's like to avoid just repeating it or slightly changing or morally saying the
same thing is like, it's a big ass to do, but I mean, I think that's, that,
that also is a way of, of rather than.
Um, you're right thinking that we've got to write the whole story ourselves
and it's on you to like come up with new ideas for 10 years in a row.
It's more like you have your little thing and it's best just like hone
that message really, really well.
And this is how I feel about it is I used to think with conferences, no, I
never want to give the same talk twice.
I want to do it, you know, once and something every
time has to be something new.
But I kind of realized after doing a bunch of them is like, well, most people
aren't going to see you talk anyway.
All right.
Or they're not going to.
You know, take the time to or they're not gonna appreciate in the moment that that
it was right then right and there's real value not just Um, for you personally in
terms of like, when you give a talk once, it's probably going to be better the third
or fourth or fifth time that you give it, right, but there's also value to repeating
the same message, right, which to me almost felt like false or a cop out, but
no, I think now, after doing it a while, there's actually something to be done
with that, which is take one small thing and focus on that small area and don't
try and be like, completely reinventing yourself, like, tomorrow you're going
to be talking about some weird economics and then you're How bitcoin is art, or
something, you know, I mean like, just take one thing and build your little
notice around that and really, really hone that particular message, because like
we've done with the um, economic stuff, right, I think we've really steel manned
that idea, and there's just anything, any objection that someone could have about
the money stuff, someone has written just the best thing and you're just like, bam,
and you haven't asked your every question.
There's real value for us as a community in doing that, but that just comes from
a small amount of people focus, doing focus work on one particular thing, so.
That's funny, that reminds me of comedians.
I mean comedians are like some of the most visible people on podcasts and
stuff because for some reason people like to listen to funny people be funny or
something like that, but you know, you hear about their process of literally
going around and touring and working on their jokes and stuff like that, the
same ones, they don't do a new act every year, Every night, you know, they, they
work on it and then, and then eventually they, they record it and everything.
And then, and then that's, that's it.
That's actually not a bad model for, for this
I think a good analogy, right?
I mean, like, you can't tell the same joke for 10 years, but you wouldn't want to
try and rewrite a whole new, like, half an hour comedy skit every, you just, I
mean, trying to write some of these talks is, is, maybe I'm just a moron, right?
But, but trying to write some of these talks is, it takes months, right?
And, and when I do it, I've just got, like, pretty much memorize half
an hour of stuff and then practice it so it becomes more natural.
But I mean, like, trying to do that.
You know, if I was trying to do this like six times a year, I stick to like three
because it's too much for me, right?
But imagine trying to do it six times a year.
You just can't do that alone unless you're full time working on it.
So, you know, there's lots of reasons why I think just one small thing
repeated it actually has some value.
Yeah.
No, and uh, um, do you think there are any like narratives around
Bitcoin or, uh, thoughts around it that are actually dangerous?
Like the, the people are on the wrong track?
Uh, I mean like the stuff I talked about before, right, where I think the message
is being deluded and it's dangerous and that like the analogy which I was supposed
to make in this talk but I actually kind of like As you do, you know, skip over
or like move around some things that you were going to say, but you didn't say.
The thing like, the real risk to me is that, um, if we don't change
people's view on what technology is.
Like, people want something that's familiar.
They want to recreate what they know.
It's human nature, right?
And so, for you as a business owner, or someone that's creating something and
trying to get more Bitcoiners on board, which I think there's maybe a little too
much emphasis on, it's just more people in the door, so the number can go up.
The more you do that, the more people try to make it understandable and
relatable by people, so they make it more like what it already is.
And by making it more like what it already is, the whole idea about Bitcoin
is changing what it already is in terms of money and things like that.
I think the risk that we run is like recreating the existing financial system
with an orange coat of paint, right?
The same, same thing, but yeah, just with different words,
different wardrobe change, right?
So I think that's, that's probably to me is the most dangerous thing where, I know
I'm someone that's like very much the privacy, freedom, self custodial kind of
thing, and very anti KYC, all this kind of stuff, but you know, having worked
at companies like this, I understand why these things are necessary, and there
is also an argument why you would say, well, sure, it's KYC, but if a lot of
people buy Bitcoin, it doesn't matter if it's KYC, because we've defunded the
government, you know, so there is a, like, there's a middle ground here to
be, to be found, But I think probably that's what I'm getting to the, the
real point is, is like a nuance, right?
You know, somewhere in between those two polarized things, there's
the, the right way to do it.
And it's probably not going to be universal in all situations what it
is, but there's just a real lack of.
Like, um, how would we say, like, intellectual rigorousness
in this space, right?
I think, like, people, to me, the best book on Bitcoin is, like, uh, Erik
Voskiel's Crypto Economics, because, like, uh, you know, I largely agree
with most, almost everything he says, not everyone does, but I don't think
that you can argue that that is the most rigorous Comprehensive body
of work about this is what bitcoin is and this is how it functions.
You know these axiomatic truths as he describes it It's a it's a whole
system that all links together and to return to like the religion talk I
gave last year It's like if you look at Christianity, right, you know,
you have like baptism, Catholicism, Protestantism all these kind of things
right and they're it's so detailed.
It's like well because in Ephesians 12 16 Jesus said this or that or whatever you
should only wear a red shirt on Tuesdays or something It's that level of detail of
like They've thought about every aspect of the Bible and what this should mean
and they have like this detailed view.
And I think there's a lot of value for that because as I said, like, there
are many different views in this, in this spectrum about what works for
Bitcoin and I think we win by having this marketplace of ideas, but we
don't win if they're like very pure.
They're very poorly fleshed out ideas and they're very kind of naïve or immature
and when by all these different schools of thought having the most rigorous,
intense, deep body of work to help explain and understand why you should look at
Bitcoin from this angle or see it this way or why it should be done this way.
You're the, you're the second person this week to, to say crypto, uh, crypto
It's great.
It's just crazy.
It's not, not more, I mean, it's a, it's a pretty dense book, right?
You know, it's not for a beginner's book, but it's crazy that it's
not bigger in my mind, you know.
someone should write a, you know, new version of that.
Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, very much
I mean, but this is the thing, right?
Is, is like, it's, it's rigorous because I think, and why I really like it as
well is it's the only book that goes that level of depth and is thick and is, you
know, really deep on this kind of stuff.
And the whole point is like.
And you see Erik on Twitter, he's very much, he's like such a pedantic
motherfucker about trapping someone down about the way they say particular
words, because it matters, right?
It does matter, right?
Like these loose definitions of what you think this word means, what I think it
means, makes me think that we're talking the same language, but actually you, I
haven't communicated to you effectively what is inside my brain, right?
And so like this level of detail is really important for something like Bitcoin,
because like imagine you're navigating and you say, oh, it's, it's, it's
that way, a hundred meters, it's fine.
But if it's like, 300 kilometers, you can end up in a very different
place than if you said these, these grid coordinates, you know, this
GPS coordinate, stuff like that.
So specificity is really, really important and language is the, the
map, the navigation system we use to arrive at like a, a distance
in the, uh, an idea in the future.
And so, I think there's value to that.
Yeah, and I think this is, human action by Ludwig von Mises is dense
and, and very meticulously written for the exact same reason, right?
You need this rigorous thing.
And I know from writing a smaller book on praxeology, it's really, it's really hard
because you have to be very, very careful with your words to get it right, uh, which
is why I like writing, uh, Something like the Inverse of Clown World more because
I can be more expressive, you know.
Uh, man, I've thought about doing the book thing and maybe one day I will,
but I'm like, oh man, I just, I can't imagine what you have to go through to,
to produce something of like this size, which is not the largest book, like man.
Wow, you know, hats off to people that write a book, right, because, like I
said, I've thought about it, but when I've looked at what's involved, I'm like,
Well, send us a DM and we'll help you.
Heh heh heh heh
maybe they will come about, I need to write more, I mean, this is the way
they say you do it, right, is like you write a bunch of articles and you
turn the articles into a book, right, so I've kind of thought about maybe I
can go down this road, but we'll see.
Oh, looking forward to it.
Heh heh heh heh.
So what, uh, what do you think of, of Nostr?
Uh, the, the whole, the, the, the combination of this
Nostriga and Honeybadger.
First of all, that was, it was a brilliant move, I think, to,
to attach the two together.
Uh, there's, there's talk that the next time they'll, they'll do that is they'll
attach it to, uh, also Freedom Forum, which is, which is also a very good idea.
A different angle, but very good idea.
But Nostr and Bitcoin are becoming really intertwined these days.
Uh, many, many applications that were Bitcoin applications have now.
Also become Nostr applications and yeah, what do you see Nostr in the space here?
Difficult for me to say because like I've really wanted to sit down
and really get my head technically around Nostr and I haven't, right?
You know, like I understand basically how it works, but as far as like there's some
critiques on Nostr which I would like to have a more informed opinion on than I do.
And, um, like, I know Peter Todd reasonably well, and like, last night
we were, I was saying, like, basically, okay, just tell, tell me, you know,
like, tell me what things is, so at least when I get to look at this, I've
got, because he's kind of anti, or anti a lot of aspects of it, right, he thinks
it doesn't work, um, so, I mean, based on that, like I said, it's, it's not a
nuanced, informed opinion, but I think, um, my concern, perhaps, is that, like,
It's actually not that good a protocol on the, on the base level for certain things.
Like it's ability to deliver decentralized Twitter, all the millions
of applications we have on mine for Nostr at scale is going to be possible.
And again, I can't say One way or the other, but that's my concern about it.
And, and one thing that returning to what I was talking earlier about the
subcultures and things like that, fortunately in the Bitcoin space, I
think we've got a little tendency to be overly supportive and overly passionate.
And I think that's.
Definitely preferable to the alternative, right?
You want the space to be something where people come from the outside and they
feel like this is full of energy and love and happiness and good times and smiles.
That draws people in.
And if it's the opposite and people are too cynical or bitter
or tough, right, it's not going to pull more people into the space.
That's what we need.
But again, you know, I think there's a bit of a lack in the space of
people who are willing to Call out, you know, say a spade's a spade.
There's a problem here.
We need to fix this.
There's a bit of a lack with that and that that would be the only thing I feel
with with Nostr is You know, some people I was talking to a friend of mine about
this before and he described I mean, he's kind of talking about the conferences
thing but a bit of a circle jerk, right?
And I, my only concern that I see as an outsider with Nostr is that Is this like
a science project and a bit of a circle jerk where there's something where it's
got a tiny amount of people and there's all this energy and noise, but it's,
it's all like, it's, it's its own self contained thing, right outside this little
bubble, no one cares and, and it's a bunch of people celebrating how great they
are creating this thing for themselves, thinking it's a tool for the world.
So, I mean, I think it is great and I'm really interested in it primarily from the
perspective of like, what to me is, this is kind of what my talk about was about
today about Bitcoin as performance art.
Bitcoin isn't just about money, it's also about telling a story, about showing
an alternative narrative to what the governments or corporations give us.
And that narrative is about how we can use technology and open source and
things like this to create our own better alternatives and we don't have to use
what they tell us they have to use.
And so I like Nostr in the sense that it's like a, It's like the artistic inspiration
of Bitcoin is created at Nostr, right, so we're spiritually inspired by Bitcoin.
It's like a lot of the lessons that we've learned from Bitcoin have been
applied to how Nostr is created, right, it's kind of born of Bitcoin.
And so to me, um, regardless of like the reservations or the possible issues
like I talked about before, to me what's far more interesting is someone said,
look, hey, Bitcoin works really well at prioritizing decentralized money.
How can we take the lessons there and apply that to
communication and other things?
And I think.
To me, that is a more important thing, is like, if this can
happen to many other technologies.
It makes sense, right?
Like, uh, in my talk, I talked about the Liberator pistol
being another example of this.
Now, if you look at Cody Wilson, he said, like, it was supposed
to be a toy gun, a prop gun.
It's not something where you really think it's going to be like an AR 15.
But that wasn't the whole point.
The whole idea is here's something.
Where it's going to get all over the news and the media and people
are going to start talking about and thinking, you know, that the wheels
start to turn the head of, hmm, 3D printing and code, man, like, it's
going to be impossible for governments to stop all this kind of stuff.
And when people start thinking about that, the world starts changing, right?
So I think Bitcoin is amazing money and it's going to change the financial
system, but perhaps what is better is that it gets people thinking
of, wow, we created our own money.
What other stuff can we create if we all work together and have
a vision for the future, right?
So to me that's, in some sense, like, if Bitcoin failed as money, but it
did that, I think that would be a better victory than it not doing that
and just being sound money, right?
So that's, I think, is an important part of Nostr and what I really look forward to
with that is how that dynamic plays out.
Yeah, um I've, I think I've observed, observed a correlation
between disagreeableness and how early you were to Bitcoin.
So like the first couple of years, you get your Voskules
and your Kavaios and what not.
And the further you go down the line, it's, it isn't until like
2021, you get your Joe Halls and your, You're nice people, right?
So, so what do you, uh, and I think the thing that enables the happy
people 10 years down the line is that the disagreeable people were
so rigorous in the beginning.
So you get the don't trust verify, and then it builds in layers
and the happy people can join on the layers on top later on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
So, so have you, what's your, what's your
Oh yeah, I mean, I think you're totally right with that.
I'd agree, um, and it kind of speaks somewhat, I mean, I don't think
this is really a problem, but it's a little bit of a tragedy of the commons
problem in Bitcoin, right, where, Zach, you said the people that are
doing, like, open source development is perhaps the best example, right?
You know, if we don't have, like, very smart, talented people working full
time on Bitcoin, You know, even if you think it can be ossified, like, just
if you understand software, right, there's just this maintenance process
that needs to happen, and there's not someone keeping a close eye on that.
It's very easy for Bitcoin to break or to fall apart, right?
Um, and so, but here's these people, but there's no business
model for open source development or maintaining Bitcoin Core, right?
There's no way, I mean, the whole idea of Bitcoin is that
it should never be a revenue generative process as it is, right?
So we need to think of an alternative model, because it's all in our
interests for Bitcoin to succeed.
But we can't just create a business and let it self perpetuate itself.
We've got to come up with a different model of how we can do that, right?
So, you know, there's a, there's a little bit of, all of us are like
free riding on the work of open source developers in that sense, right?
And I think there's a little bit of that when it comes to all these, you
know, happy, joyous kind of people and that like, um, I think a lot of
them, particularly if you've been here for a short amount of time, I think a
lot of people are, have kind of like stars in their eyes or their rose
tinted glasses on about, like, um,
You know, one thing I would definitely say at the moment, and, um, you know, I've,
I've, I've obviously just, um, finished up working for a company, Uh, in the
Bitcoin space is that, um, there's a lot of people, I think the idea of a Bitcoin
scam is a relatively new thing that people aren't looking at, you know, like, uh, if
you're charging 7, 000 to have a out of alpha male retreat, you know, because this
guy is associated with Bitcoin, um, that's a scam, that's a fucking scam, you know,
as far as, I mean, like, hey, maybe it's being honest, uh, marketed honestly, but I
mean, let's look at what's happening here, it's, it's use, association with Bitcoin.
You know, uh, it's, you know, there's the things like, I
like Bitcoin, buy my shitcoin.
It's like, I like Bitcoin, buy my other thing.
Like, it's the next level.
And so I
why is that a scam though?
Well, I mean, I think it's a scam in that, like, if you look at the Okay,
let's take that particular example there.
If you look at the pricing of the resort that was involved, the tickets
are like twice the price, right?
Yeah, I mean, it is in the eye of the beholder, right?
If you feel you're getting value and you're happy to pay that
thing, I mean, it's not a scam.
But I mean, come on, like, uh, there's other examples, taking that particular
person, where, you know, there are things where people are, or, you know,
I think you see this a lot where, um, People are like, uh, here is um,
sound, sound food, or sound diet, or like, open source this or that, right?
You know, where it's, I mean, it's not a scam, but you can see how this
like, um, Bitcoin as a lifestyle brand is being created, right?
And people are trying to market things which really have
nothing to do with Bitcoin.
And again, maybe they're saying this is Bitcoin, but I feel that there
is a lot of people using that as a way to charge an overpriced price
for an undervalued service, right?
And so that's something which I see kind of creeping into the space is a bit of
that sociopath kind of behavior, right?
And I think that's a bit of a risk.
Yeah.
The question is whether you draw the line though, like an an overpriced
thing is, is it really overpriced if people are willing to pay the price?
Yeah.
yeah.
I mean, you're correct, right?
And I think, like, coming back to what I was saying about the This is all a factor
of, as Bitcoin gets bigger, you'll see more and more of this, and it'll become
more and more of a thing, you know, and, and, and you're right, you know, like,
what is the line, like, if people are willing to pay for this, and they're
happy, and they don't feel like they're getting scammed, I mean, is it a scam,
and I, I just think, like, how does this, how is this related to Bitcoin, right,
you know, and there's many other things out there in the world that use, like,
um, like, for example, ethical food, or, you know, all this kind of stuff, where
they associate it with something, We're really, if you really were wanting to
support this cause, you'd be better to directly donate to this thing, right?
But they try and create this association to brand themselves, right?
And as you said, you know, it's not direct, but I mean, I think
most people, if you explain this, they get what I'm leading to
and they understand the problem,
But it, it is like quantum, this and that, you know, . Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it, I mean, it's a difficult one to discuss, but I mean, this is
obvious, right, is with anything as it grows, like all the other stuff we
talked about, like the scams are obvious and as they get bigger, you know, this,
the, the things are harder and higher to directly say it is, and you can feel
something that's right off and wrong and not quite right, but it's a lot harder
if you to articulate and nail it down.
I mean, this is the way all things go, right, is the bigger and the larger,
more associated complex it gets.
The more involved the, the scams, if we're gonna call them scams, get
that, that would be what I think.
Mm
No, I mean the tough part about you kind of finding that and actually
this is a good example in this case because Rob brought a lot of people
into Bitcoin with particularly his Sailor series and actually my first
real touchpoint with like a real Bitcoiner was him on Lex Friedman.
Literally, that was my first.
Bitcoin maxi actually go down the rabbit hole thing and
people coming into the space.
I had no idea about the bit cloud stuff like zero idea about the bit cloud stuff.
And so then I have no idea that he's got this reputation under the hood that isn't
isn't there, you know, and so it's just it's hard for people coming into the space
to, I guess, to understand who is the Who is the right people and, and people with
influence and influencers is the correct word here are are re regarded highly
and, and they're, what they put out into the, the world by people who are new to
the space is, is it's important to get the right message out there, you know.
And I, I, I think you have to, to, to, uh, to judge people from their, like.
Are they a net benefit or a net detriment?
Like, that's, that's the key, like, but it's tricky sometimes
because people are a bit of both.
Of course they are, like, and I think to some extent, sort
of everyone is guilty of that.
Like, uh.
And I, and I agree and, and it's a great point, right?
You know, the guy has like a large reach and there are many such people, right, in
the space where, in my personal opinion, they're just, it's just garbage, trash.
You know, people that are Bitcoin but they can't actually talk in
any sort of detail or articulation about what Bitcoin really is, right?
But then being presented as experts and these are the The megaphones
that people are hearing, right?
Um, and so, you know, like, there is an element of, of, it comes back to the
same stuff as we talked about before, like, getting more people in the door
is obviously, I think, a benefit, but at what point do you dilute the message such
where, you know, uh, let's take the Miami or Nashville conference as an example.
How many hours of talks are going on there and how many of them are really
adding value and how many of them more just like here is a face and where this
face brings people in the door, but what they said was just hot air, right?
You know, it was garbage.
And would that, I mean, if you ask me, these people should be listening
to Erik Voskil and reading crypto economics, which they're not going to do.
But, but I feel like there is more a duty of stewardship from all of us.
To try and steer in that right direction.
Part of that is calling out things, which I think are clearly unaligned,
Yeah, but there's a devil's argument to be made here too, because arguably,
Bitcoin conferences in general have become more high signal over time.
Like, in 2017, you had, like, there were no real Bitcoin conferences, there
were just these blockchain bullshit
Mm hmm.
So from a certain point of view, it is getting Like, the signal
to noise ratio is getting higher.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, I mean, it's a hard, and this is, I mean, the fact that we're discussing
this, I think, is like the beauty, right?
It's like, I have heard very, very few people having these conversations
Maybe like kind of leading around this point, but not directly discussing this
as like a analytically, objectively as a social phenomenon, right?
You know,
No, it's great.
and um, and like, you know, maybe you are, you're, you're totally
right and I'm totally wrong, right?
Like these people are, I should just stop being such a, you
know, such a negative Nancy.
And these people are good for things, right?
But, but we need to have this discussion and decide, and well,
better articulate what this happy medium between the two is, right?
You know?
And that, that's, that's the thing which I think is missing.
And just simply by having this conversation, discussing this
stuff, getting it out and getting more nuanced, I think it's part
of getting the job done, right?
When, you know, if maybe next time Robert Breloves does his Alpha of, Art of Alpha
2, I'm going to be like, Well, actually, when I look at it, it's a benefit because
we had this conversation, right, you know?
Yeah, the sequel is obviously going to be named Art of the Beta.
Well, anyway, I think it's a great discussion, and it's like, people
should talk more about this.
Because, yeah, there is a trade off, and I don't think we disagree, I
think we're on the same page here.
I'm just mostly taking the devil's advocate position for, to get the debate
going because I think it's, it's, uh, it's very much a subject that should
be vocalized more and aired more.
Absolutely.
Because diluting the message is bad.
And that, that is.
Like, well, we talk about ethics and tactics and whatnot with the pod all
the time, and like, well, what we agree on and align on so much, it's
like, we want, there is nothing more important than integrity, like, I,
this, I love the Scarface quote, you know, all I have in this world is my
word and my balls, and they don't break for no one, and I try to live by that,
and like, I think, have I ever ever.
Had I ever taken the bag of shit coins during these last five years,
I would be nothing at this point.
I've seen it so many times over and over again.
People turning from intellectuals to ultimate fighters, for
instance, with the same moustache.
Yeah.
A
And it's, to me, it's crazy.
I've thought the exact same thing.
It's crazy where, on the one hand, these people talk about Bitcoin is sound money
for generations and this is a thousand year mission and they don't see them
doing this stuff of like, yeah, to me, um, there's been many times where I thought,
uh, you know, like when I started speaking at conferences and things like this, if
I really started going deeper on this thing, maybe I could make more of a thing
of it or whatever, but I think I like, I want to slowly build my, my brand in
that sense over like 10 years, like, like do things and do only do things right.
Exactly, exactly dude.
That's like all these memes we throw around.
But I mean maybe that speaks to, again, this whole point I keep returning to
is like, they're all empty platitudes with people actually not deeply thinking
about, you know, calling, having something that can clearly articulate and point
out, this is in direct contradiction to this, but because the thinking is
so sloppy, you know, people don't even realize that they're, they're doing that.
Like people, people want the fast, fast buck.
And it's, it's, it's a part, it's a, it's like a I think that's a real
side effect or like, uh, a result of the fiat mindset and the fiat rot in
people's brains over so many years.
my mind so much in terms of like, I mean, I guess everyone's got to eat,
right, you know, but, but, surely if you've got Bitcoin, like, you're good,
right, if you really believe in Bitcoin, right, you know, maybe not now, but
if you really believe in Bitcoin, then we're all going to be super fucking
rich, right, in 10 years or whatever, and so in that 10 years, you know, if
you got a little bit more money, it's not going to matter anywhere near as
much as like, if people knew, if you had that old boys network of the people that
are here right now in Bitcoin, and they knew that you were always a, you know,
Trustable, a person with high integrity for 10 years over all these things.
Imagine the value.
That is an incredible value,
No, no, no.
It's like, uh, honesty and integrity are really, that's
really the currency of the future.
And that's, I think that aligns with Bitcoin so well because,
It is this base layer of truth.
It, it is actually integrity quantified, if you will.
So, so it aligns so well and I, I think that, yeah, reputation is
everything and, and it's all tied to authenticity and integrity.
Well, and, and I mean, first of all, the one thing is that, that's
the noster thing there as well.
The Web of trust idea.
I mean, IM implementation stuff.
Is, is that's, that's valid.
Like if we've, we've had our own concerns about the architecture
and, uh, haven't really talked to any hardcore skeptics that, that
actually have thought about this hard.
But still the, the web of trust thing is, is amazing in terms of, in terms of
this portable web of trust that you can take from application to application.
And hold on to that.
And so I mean, I think that's just going to amplify that effect.
But my other comment from from earlier was, the talk I did
at Noob Day was basically just leaning into Bitcoin, how to do it.
Because for me, I've been in the space two years.
And so much has just happened from saying yes to stuff and,
and putting in and putting in the work and I'm not tooting my horn.
Too hard when I'm, when I'm saying that, but the, the point about it
is just like, do the work, like you say, and I mean, things can
happen a lot faster than, than you
and there are no shortcuts.
just by having the integrity and, and, and doing the work with
Yeah.
And you can't just cling on to this or that influencers ideas.
That doesn't work.
You need to, you need to actually study the thing.
And
Slay your heroes.
Yeah, I mean I, again, something I talked about in the talk that I
did today is like the whole idea of what Bitcoin is, is like a different
philosophy around technology, right?
You know, we have The systems view of technology and the tools view of
technology is technology a system whereby you follow like a more or less
a recipe or a set of instructions and the software does everything for you and
it's like pressing a button and getting something out the other end, right?
And that has its place, but I mean, I think Bitcoin is a different type
of technology in that it requires, uh, like you to learn to, to wield
it, to understand that the value is in the, the, the time and energy that
you have to invest to learn about it.
Because if you don't learn it, then someone else is making these decisions for
you, and the whole point of Bitcoin is, is to educate yourself and master it, right?
An analogy might be, um, you know, hundreds of years ago, slightly
romanticized, um, example, but nonetheless, I think that the metaphor
is, is there, that hundreds of years ago, like, to be able to kill someone,
like to be a knight or whatever, you had to spend a long amount of time
learning how to master a sword, right?
And what would work for you is one will exactly work for me.
It's about your body.
Staff and,
you, you would probably have to practice less, right?
but I mean, it's, it's all about your, your, um, you know,
understanding yourself, right?
And you're never going to be a better swordsman.
I'm never going to be a better swordsman than you if I don't
really understand myself.
And then to project myself through the sword, right?
Now today, you know, any moron in an hour can learn how to
have a rifle and shoot people.
And I think, um, again, it's somewhat romanticized, but I still think
there's a good amount of truth to this.
And that, like, I think we are in a much worse position by having the
power to kill given to anyone who knows how to work a very simple machine.
Versus that being reserved to people that go through the work
and therefore learn to master themselves and understand themselves.
There's a degree of, you're never going to be able to kill people unless
you're able to pass these personal tests and verse the effort, right?
And I think the same thing should apply to technologies like bitcoin,
like with our money, right?
Because when you don't do that, you're just a blindness follower
of someone else's instructions.
But when you actually have to sit down and learn, there's value to
making people go through that process.
And so I think, like, the whole idea of bitcoin is that it should be a little.
Complicated and a little hard and you know you shouldn't try and dumb it
down too much because there's a certain point where it kind of kills what the
whole point of Bitcoin is which is to go through that kind of process
and we will have a better world if everyone understands how to use Bitcoin.
But again, if imagine it's ten people in the world are the only people
that really understand Bitcoin and everyone else is just using you
know, Binance or something like that.
Are we any better than we are now?
I don't think we are, you know.
So the whole point is making sure that everyone in the world or a much greater
amount of people in the world Are the people who are able to be the banks and,
and the PayPals and the things like that.
And, and if you don't like it, you can easily make your
own PayPal like this, right?
And I think that's the value of it.
And part of that is forcing people to be responsible and to learn themselves.
And if they don't go through that, we don't change anything.
So it's a counterpoint.
Are you familiar with the word Kdi Ling
This, this is a word that our friend Ralphie told us in Prague, and the,
the definition is to purposefully travel without any particular
destination, possibly meandering.
And, and, and some, someone, someone asked people on Twitter to, to, uh,
and describe Bitcoin with one word.
And I think that's a perfect word, it's coddywompling.
It's purposeful, but you don't know where it leads.
yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it's like these, all these now, you know, the journey is a
destination, all this kinda stuff.
But I mean, I think there is value, there's, there's truth
to that with Bitcoin, right.
You know?
Yeah.
Rigel, this has been a great, uh, discussion, lively, uh, I, I think,
I think, uh, do you have anything else big on your mind that you're
excited to talk about or, or share?
No, no.
I mean, um, no, that's pretty much it.
Like, um, you know, this is, this has been a really good talk and
I, and I, and I feel like I don't listen to too many Bitcoin podcasts
these days, but I feel like.
I don't think these sort of conversations are being had about these sort of
things and, and uh, just thank you for giving the opportunity to hopefully,
hopefully whoever's watching this has shared similar, felt similar value
from it, but thank you for giving the opportunity to talk about these
things with you guys because they've been great counterpoints as well.
Pleasure is, uh, on our side, like, uh, yeah, right back at you.
So, so anyway, will you want to send our listeners, like,
Um, no, just I'm on Twitter, um, and Telegram, if you want to
get me directly, on Coinsure and
Telegram.
yeah, yeah, yeah, hot topic today, isn't it, yeah, yeah,
have gone
um, I'm trying to remember what my, uh, I just added the, um.
thing in, uh, Signal.
But anyway, you can get my Signal if you message me there.
Um, and, um, and my Nostr, I believe, is on there as well.
And if not, I'm sure you can find me through things on Nostr there.
I'll tell you my input, but that's a little messy to, to say on a
We make, we make that joke sometimes, oh, you're not going to tell us your mPub?
But, yeah, anyway.
that
you're going to get a book, I mean, uh, order the book now, uh, within two weeks
and get a free set of steak knives, maybe.
And, uh, yeah.
Thank you, Rigel, for coming on to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.
you.
Thank you.
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
Thank you for listening.