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Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show, brought to you by  BitBox Stampseed,

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the Bitcoin Advisor and ShopInBit.

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Go to  BitcoinInfinity.com for books, merch and more.

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Enjoy the conversation.

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Rigel, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Thank you for having me on.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it's, uh, finally!

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Yeah.

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I think we talked about this like, I even maybe like two years ago or

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something, you were like, want to do this?

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And just I think too busy doing different things and never happened, right?

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yeah.

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But we figured we'd do an in person one,

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Mm-Hmm.

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Because I remember the first time I saw you back in 2019, like, uh,

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my first time here, and like, the starting gun for me for all of this

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crazy life that has followed on later.

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So, uh, and here's this guy on stage, uh, playing death metal songs for

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All.

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finance and nerd people.

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So, yeah, yeah, it's, uh, I thought it was absolutely awesome, so yeah, I'm

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not the only metalhead in here, like,

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I remember when I, when I put that in the presentation, I was

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like, is this going to go down?

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I was just going to go down, right?

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And then everyone like clapped after I played that video.

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I was like, oh, cool.

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No, it was super based.

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Thank you.

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Uh, like, uh, what's the name of your band again?

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Uh, so I play in a band called Diocletian.

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Um, I used to play in a band called Dawn of Ezel, but the band I play in now is

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a band called Diocletian, which is like, I guess you would call it like the,

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you know, metal's got like a zillion sub genres and stuff, but like, you

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would call it like war metal, I guess.

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War metal.

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War metal is the thing, right?

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Yeah, so, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, what's your story?

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Like give our listeners your story.

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How, um, who are you and, uh, what, what turned you on to death metal and what

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turned you on to Bitcoin and is there a connection between the two and all of

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Oh my God.

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Okay.

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This is a very long winded.

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How do I summarize this pretty well?

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Okay.

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So yeah, I'm, I'm Roger Walsh.

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I go by Coinsurance Ed on Twitter and, and Telegram and these, a

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lot of these kinds of platforms.

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Um, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, played music and stuff since I was, um,

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17 years old, you know, been a band where, you know, I'm from New

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Zealand, that's where that was from.

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We were the first metal band to ever get out of the country, really, even like

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Australia, um, let alone, um, Europe and the States and things like that.

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So, you know, we, we did quite a few, uh, four albums, I think it was, with my

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old band Dawn of Azel before we split up, um, and, yeah, I never, never, Really,

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really massively big, but, um, you know, like, in New Zealand it's quite a bit

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bigger than we were, um, outside of that, and certainly Europe or the States.

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Um, the same time, when I turned 21, I joined the police.

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I was in the police for 10 years, um, at the same time as this was going on,

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and if you search my name, you'll find some interesting news reports about some

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trouble I had for that kind of reason.

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Um, so, so that's maybe my background.

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Background with that part, we'll shift forward to maybe when I first got into

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Bitcoin in 2014, um, and so for me, what got me interested in Bitcoin was, as I

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said, I used to be in the police, um, and one day, you know, I think I've heard

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of Bitcoin thrown around, I just I was reading a news article about the, um,

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Silk Road trial, and this is when Russell Brook was getting sentenced, and this is

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like after I left the police and things like this, and um, it just blew my mind

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when I read that, it's like, because I think most people don't really, or

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didn't, or can't quite grok maybe the way that it makes It's me, in the sense of

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like, you have this drug market selling.

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Um, whatever you liked, you know, under the eyes of the FBI and all these

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guys, and there was nothing they could do for years, and this, I was like,

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wow, man, this is going to be straight away, I thought this is how Russia and

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North Korea are going to get around sanctions and stuff, as it seems they

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are doing today, you know, so to me this is like nuclear weapons grade money.

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So my interest actually was, was in Bitcoin, but also in the darknet

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market, so I just got on there and had a look, and I, And that was what really

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interested me, but of course, like most people that play around in the darknet

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markets, you, you start, okay, what is this Bitcoin thing that I'm using

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and sending and start looking into it.

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And look, I'd never been a finance kind of guy.

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I mean, um, like I said, I joined the police rather relatively early on.

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They've got a very good superannuation scheme where, like, you put in a dollar,

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the government puts in two dollars.

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And so, to me, I'd looked at investing and shares and things a couple of

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times, and it never made sense because I've got the best There's no better

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place that I could do is just put more money in that fund that the government

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will match dollar for dollar, right?

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So this is the first time I've ever looked at anything Really about investing and you

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know and obviously as you start thinking about this Well at that time when I got

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into Bitcoin and bought my stuff was around 200 bucks It just right at the end

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of the 2014 kind of crash and you know at the time I thought like wow man this might

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be worth a thousand dollars some some year later some some years later, right?

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You know so so I started putting pretty much Everything I had which the time

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was not a lot because this is after I left the police and I actually quite a

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bit of trouble Transitioning from that into like some sort of civilian career.

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I was like I found it quite hard to find, like, uh, work, and so I

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was working self employed, and I didn't have a lot of money, but I put

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everything I had into Bitcoin, because to me, it just made total sense, um.

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So yeah, that was 2014, um, obviously fast forward a couple of years, 2017

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is around, and now Bitcoin is there.

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Close to 20 grand, you know, I've got, got lots of, I'm fucking rich, you know,

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um, so, so what I, what I did is I, I was like, man, I spend so much time

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thinking and talking about Bitcoin, I really want to get involved in the

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space, but, you know, what, I'm not a software developer, what can I do?

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So I actually ended up buying some Trezors, and just through good luck, when

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I bought them, Bitcoin was around 10k.

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Um, and I bought like, something like, I think, 200 or something treasures

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and ledges, um, and I sold all of them in a month in New Zealand,

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which is a tiny country, you know, which, which blew my mind, right?

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So then that happened, and this was like February, and I remember it was December,

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I had mass massive orders, January pitted off, and then like February, there was

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just nothing, and you know, the price is going down, the thing, you know, so

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I was just in the right place at the right time, and got lucky, and I had

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all this money out of this, and it was in In a, in a business account that

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I'd have to pay taxes on, obviously, if I didn't get rid of it, right?

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So, to my thing as well, I could pay myself a salary and pay tax on it,

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but what's smarter is, hmm, how can I use this money to make the next

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step and jump to the next thing?

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So I thought, well, let's go to a bunch of Bitcoin conferences and see if there's any

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Uh, match for my kind of skills, right?

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So I'd never, I'd never gone to, I've been to like meetups in New Zealand, but

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I had no idea like what it really looked like out there in the real world, right?

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So I went to, um, like a couple of, I went to like an Australian

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big Crip, uh, blockchain one, which was like just total trash.

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And then I went to, um, you know, token 2049.

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You heard of that one?

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It's like a still going.

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It's like a real shit coin kind of conference thing that was in, um,

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rings a tiny bell, rings a tiny bell.

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Yeah.

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um, it's in, it was in Hong Kong or something, right?

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And, and I remember I went to that and it was, it was cool, right?

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But it was still, you know, I was still in this world where, you know, obviously

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I was familiar with Bitcoin, but I dabbled with, you know, altcoins and stuff

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like this and, and perhaps the way that you or I would look at Bitcoin now, I

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think was still quite a new, new thing.

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New idea in those times, right?

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There wasn't this really well nuanced ideology about how

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to view this kind of stuff.

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So I went there and I was kind of figuring this out and I mean, this is cool, but

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it feels a little kind of creepy sleazy.

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The next one I went to was like Konsensus in New York, which was at

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the time, that was the biggest Bitcoin crypto conference you would say ever.

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And there was like, 3, 000 people or something.

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And I remember at that conference, I was like, uh, there was a lot of,

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you know, all sorts of Ethereum and things there, right, but there was a

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blockstream room at this conference.

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And I remember, like, I felt like, man, this place feels so sleazy and so dirty

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and everyone seems like, Super sketchy, but then you go to the Blockstream room,

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and I was like, these are the guys that, you know, I just clicked, like when you

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meet them and you see this, and so I think this is a really important thing

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for people that don't go to conferences, that when you come, like a lot of this

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stuff, when you just see it with your own eyes and talk to people directly,

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it makes a lot more sense than online.

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So I went to that, um, and then I met, um, what's his name, Erik, last name is

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sketchy, but he's, uh, works on Bitcoin Fabric, used to be at Blockstream.

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He told me, um, go to Building on Bitcoin and go to Honeybadger.

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And so from then I started going to conferences, when I went to building

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on Bitcoin, I kind of talked about this in my talk today, it was like

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I wasn't a software developer, but I saw Adam Fiskor and Nicholas Doria

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presented Wasabi and BTC Pay Server, and I realized like, wow man, I thought

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before that Bitcoin software development is all about like some super computer

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nerd guys and like Bitcoin core and only this real high level stuff.

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But I realized, man, these guys just made their own app on Bitcoin

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that really made a real difference.

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And wow, you know, I could do that if I were to put my mind to it.

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So I came back straight away, got into a Python coding course and just

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like really, really luckily, you know, I went really crazy on this.

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And, um, then come December, Jimmy Song came to Australia to do

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the, um, the programming course.

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I applied and got on that, um, and I was like really out of my depth,

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but I, you know, but I managed to keep up enough to write it.

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Um, and so this was like maybe six months after, you know, six months

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ago, I didn't know anything about like coding or anything like that.

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Um, And so just by pure luck, also, you know, I was really, relatively well

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networked in the New Zealand, Auckland Bitcoin scene, and I went to a meetup

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and there was a guy there who I tried, knew kind of loosely, um, that I knew

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had a, like a really small exchange in New Zealand, and I was talking about,

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he's like, Oh, what are you doing?

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I was like, Oh, I was just building this API in Python.

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It's like, Oh, we're building out our API.

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Do you want to come and help?

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And I was like, Yeah, so at the time I was working a job where I'm working four

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days a week and I had the Mondays off.

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And so I just started working there on Mondays and then split with the

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ex girlfriend and I was really happy in New Zealand and felt like I've

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really got to get out of here, right?

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So I was thinking even if I have to like sell Bitcoin to leave,

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I've just really got to get out of New Zealand because I feel like

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there's just no future for me here.

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So I said to them, okay, look, hey, I had a friend that was living in Bali.

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I said, look, hey, I'm moving to Bali.

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I really don't want to leave this job.

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And I really Appreciate what you give me, but I've got to do this.

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If you let me work remote, I would really happily work remote,

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but I understand if you don't.

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They're like, sure, yeah, have a full time job.

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So I did that, started doing that, um, COVID happened, um, ended up in Mexico as

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a cause of that, and in, for the Jeremy Songz course, there's like an alumni

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telegram group, um, Jan Pritzker jumped in there and he said like, hey, we're

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looking for developers at Swan, and, you know, and I said, hey, I, you know, I do

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that, and the tech stack was very similar to what I was already working on, and,

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um, I got a job there, and so for the last, up until, up until, uh, three weeks

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ago, I was working at Swan for three and a half years, I think it was employee

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number, 10 or 11 or something there.

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Um, and that's pretty much it.

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I think that's, sorry long thing, but I think I covered

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all the, all the bases there.

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And then I give some talks at conferences here.

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Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great story.

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And there are many similarities to mine.

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Like I also have experience of the shit coin conference before I went to Rega

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in 2019, but were you here in 2018?

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Yeah.

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00:11:09,119 --> 00:11:13,139
That was the first, because was, uh, when I said when I met, um, Eric, he

223
00:11:13,139 --> 00:11:17,759
told me building on Bitcoin and then, um, honey Beg are the ones, so I,

224
00:11:17,759 --> 00:11:21,149
I pretty much, that was the last of the company money was that one there.

225
00:11:21,149 --> 00:11:24,659
And that, that one they were talking about HCPP and I was like, oh, can I go to that?

226
00:11:24,659 --> 00:11:25,064
But it was just.

227
00:11:26,329 --> 00:11:30,069
Flying home, New Zealand, which is like a two hour, two day journey, then

228
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:33,549
coming back two weeks later and paying for all the stuff, I didn't manage to

229
00:11:33,549 --> 00:11:36,399
make it, but like, that was the first, first time, the last conference I

230
00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:38,949
went on that thing, and that really, I mean, it was an amazing conference.

231
00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:40,609
So this, this has always been an amazing conference, you know.

232
00:11:40,734 --> 00:11:46,064
uh, I saw your talk here last year, uh, and it was really, really good,

233
00:11:46,074 --> 00:11:51,154
like awesome about Bitcoin cultures, right, and different subcultures and,

234
00:11:51,584 --> 00:11:56,534
uh, what these subgroups and what happens in a decentralized system,

235
00:11:56,984 --> 00:12:01,914
uh, and also like we've been chatting during this conference about, uh,

236
00:12:03,024 --> 00:12:08,224
These, these effects, like how we find our own in groups and how, how people

237
00:12:08,254 --> 00:12:10,114
cling onto the extremes here and there.

238
00:12:10,114 --> 00:12:14,424
And, uh, can you expand a bit on that and, and what, what do you think is

239
00:12:14,424 --> 00:12:18,904
missing from conferences in general and what makes Honeybadger stick out

240
00:12:18,924 --> 00:12:21,474
as a high signal one and all of that

241
00:12:21,759 --> 00:12:23,249
I mean, well, okay, so three questions there.

242
00:12:23,249 --> 00:12:28,189
So to talk about the talk, um, yeah, and it's called Bitcoin Psychopaths vs.

243
00:12:28,239 --> 00:12:31,349
Bitcoin Sociopaths, and if you Google it, you can find the written thing

244
00:12:31,349 --> 00:12:33,229
and the video and view it yourself.

245
00:12:33,259 --> 00:12:37,419
But basically, what I talked about is, to return to my story, right, when I

246
00:12:37,419 --> 00:12:41,269
started coming to these conferences, I realized how much this had, the Bitcoin

247
00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:45,494
world had in common with the music world in the sense of, The personalities,

248
00:12:45,494 --> 00:12:48,904
the little subgroups, the way that things evolved, like I just saw a lot

249
00:12:48,904 --> 00:12:53,334
of things that clicked because to me really like Bitcoin is like a Harley

250
00:12:53,334 --> 00:12:54,844
Davidson for computer nerds, right?

251
00:12:54,844 --> 00:12:58,514
It's like this kind of like subculture where that people are involved in

252
00:12:58,524 --> 00:13:01,304
and I feel like a lot of people who are in Bitcoin, like I have this

253
00:13:01,304 --> 00:13:04,854
experience of being these weird kind of outside groups and how this works.

254
00:13:05,144 --> 00:13:07,434
I think a lot of people that are in Bitcoin this is the first kind of

255
00:13:07,434 --> 00:13:10,604
really Out there, different thing they've had in their life and they,

256
00:13:10,634 --> 00:13:12,054
you know, they're like blows in mind.

257
00:13:12,054 --> 00:13:16,024
They're like, wow, this is so cool, but they don't realize how a lot of these

258
00:13:16,074 --> 00:13:17,774
idiosyncrasies are very much the same.

259
00:13:17,804 --> 00:13:20,264
I'd imagine the same if you were like a Trekkie or you're

260
00:13:20,264 --> 00:13:21,624
into something like that.

261
00:13:21,624 --> 00:13:23,414
There's a lot of the same sort of politics, right?

262
00:13:23,964 --> 00:13:29,629
So, so the talk is really talking about how, um, How, uh, Bitcoin, in my opinion,

263
00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:33,599
is like a subculture or counterculture, the same way that, um, you know, metal

264
00:13:33,599 --> 00:13:36,549
music would be an example, but, you know, there's plenty of things like this

265
00:13:36,549 --> 00:13:40,049
where people have a niche interest, but it's also kind of a little bit against

266
00:13:40,049 --> 00:13:42,359
society, right, if you know what I mean, the whole idea of Bitcoin is you're

267
00:13:42,359 --> 00:13:45,939
trying to defund the state, and so it's kind of like, it's not, it's not like a

268
00:13:45,939 --> 00:13:48,919
really dangerous out there kind of thing, but, you know, the kind of thing that

269
00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:50,389
it's based on is not like a subculture.

270
00:13:50,929 --> 00:13:52,889
It's not in total alignment with society, I think,

271
00:13:52,954 --> 00:13:54,764
inherently contrarian?

272
00:13:54,789 --> 00:13:58,039
Exactly, yeah, exactly, which does attract a lot of contrarians, right?

273
00:13:58,299 --> 00:14:02,269
Um, so, so the whole talk was, was looking at, okay, if you look at subcultures,

274
00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:06,659
how do they get involved or in, uh, immersed in the traditional system, right?

275
00:14:06,659 --> 00:14:07,719
There's plenty of things.

276
00:14:07,959 --> 00:14:09,689
Let's take rap music, for example.

277
00:14:09,859 --> 00:14:12,149
You know, where you had, uh, Dr.

278
00:14:12,149 --> 00:14:16,144
Dre in, uh, NWA, and now he's like, You know, selling Beats

279
00:14:16,144 --> 00:14:19,154
headphones and a very nice commercial established businessman, right?

280
00:14:19,634 --> 00:14:22,634
Or another good one that I like to use is like, um, weed, or

281
00:14:22,634 --> 00:14:24,054
like the gay community, right?

282
00:14:24,334 --> 00:14:27,224
At one point, these were very out there things, and now they're very normal and

283
00:14:27,244 --> 00:14:30,214
very accepted, and they're almost like Almost a little forced on you, right?

284
00:14:30,214 --> 00:14:32,564
In a lot of ways, as opposed to like being an outcast.

285
00:14:32,984 --> 00:14:36,154
So, you know, when things become normalized and when they get bigger and

286
00:14:36,154 --> 00:14:39,564
bigger and bigger, if they catch on, eventually they kind of get watered down

287
00:14:39,604 --> 00:14:41,204
as they get integrated into society.

288
00:14:41,204 --> 00:14:44,274
And the same thing I think is already happening in Bitcoin, um, and it's

289
00:14:44,274 --> 00:14:45,904
affecting the culture of Bitcoin.

290
00:14:46,174 --> 00:14:49,224
And I don't think you can really change that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's

291
00:14:49,254 --> 00:14:52,424
inevitable, but it's something that I think we need to discuss and look

292
00:14:52,424 --> 00:14:57,254
at, okay, well, if you Some of these other things there, how they lost, what

293
00:14:57,254 --> 00:14:59,814
made them powerful and transformative in the first place, because they were

294
00:14:59,814 --> 00:15:01,294
kind of revolutionary movements, right?

295
00:15:01,294 --> 00:15:03,714
And they got watered down and commercialized, right?

296
00:15:04,084 --> 00:15:06,544
So I think the same thing is happening to Bitcoin right now,

297
00:15:06,544 --> 00:15:07,714
and you can't really stop it.

298
00:15:07,714 --> 00:15:11,244
This is, if you just look at history, this is what happens, but there is a

299
00:15:11,244 --> 00:15:15,174
conversation to be had about how can we navigate this as best as we can, right?

300
00:15:15,174 --> 00:15:18,034
So that's, that's more or less a summary of that kind of

301
00:15:18,034 --> 00:15:19,274
talk and what that was about.

302
00:16:19,479 --> 00:16:20,159
Now, what was the,

303
00:16:21,109 --> 00:16:21,359
Yeah,

304
00:16:21,369 --> 00:16:21,959
was the other two

305
00:16:22,189 --> 00:16:23,289
of a long question.

306
00:16:23,339 --> 00:16:23,609
I mean,

307
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:25,829
Maybe we can, yeah, maybe we can just stay on

308
00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:27,169
Are you asking about conferences?

309
00:16:27,169 --> 00:16:30,929
Like you said, like, uh, what I think about Bitcoin conferences and what

310
00:16:30,929 --> 00:16:31,959
I think I like about HoneyBadger.

311
00:16:32,179 --> 00:16:37,309
Well, what I like about HoneyBadger is that, like, I think nowadays, um, the

312
00:16:37,309 --> 00:16:41,229
conference thing, kind of to speak to what I just was talking about, right?

313
00:16:41,229 --> 00:16:45,009
As this gets bigger, it becomes more commercial and, and, um, things get

314
00:16:45,009 --> 00:16:48,653
kind of watered down for people that are, Casual participants, right?

315
00:16:48,653 --> 00:16:51,353
The people early on in the movement, like, you know, if you're there in 2017,

316
00:16:51,353 --> 00:16:54,023
2018, you're really hardcore, right?

317
00:16:54,023 --> 00:16:57,573
But if you look at the way they're doing, say, Bitcoin Nashville at the moment,

318
00:16:57,613 --> 00:16:58,523
like, it's a very different thing.

319
00:16:58,523 --> 00:17:01,993
It's very not watered down, very commercial, and very one

320
00:17:02,003 --> 00:17:03,433
kind of one minded, right?

321
00:17:04,053 --> 00:17:06,783
And what I like about Honeybadge and what I have so much respect for with

322
00:17:06,783 --> 00:17:10,818
this conference is that, um, They seem to, at least, you know, I've never had

323
00:17:10,818 --> 00:17:13,548
this conversation directly, but this is my impression, is that, remember

324
00:17:13,548 --> 00:17:17,178
in 2019, that was the biggest Bitcoin conference in the world, and I think

325
00:17:17,178 --> 00:17:19,558
there was probably 600, 800 people, right?

326
00:17:20,058 --> 00:17:25,598
And, um, you know, things, things have got bigger and stuff since then, and

327
00:17:25,598 --> 00:17:28,638
maybe, you know, this could have been a bigger conference, I mean, certainly

328
00:17:28,638 --> 00:17:31,498
you would imagine it could have been as big as, say, BTC Prague is, right?

329
00:17:31,498 --> 00:17:34,418
You know, but they seem to have had the idea of, like, let's just keep it at a

330
00:17:34,418 --> 00:17:38,598
particular level and not go too far and too hard, because in my humble opinion

331
00:17:39,018 --> 00:17:41,988
I think, like, the Bitcoin National Conference is an absolute abomination,

332
00:17:41,988 --> 00:17:43,118
it's a circus, you know what I mean?

333
00:17:43,348 --> 00:17:47,378
And it's all there just to, like, make it as loud and big as possible, but what

334
00:17:47,378 --> 00:17:50,868
is the message that is getting diluted and what is getting presented to these

335
00:17:50,868 --> 00:17:55,268
newcomers there is, to me, is very much getting away from what I believe the

336
00:17:55,268 --> 00:17:56,738
message of Bitcoin should be, right?

337
00:17:56,738 --> 00:18:00,168
Or at least it's not even a very nuanced message no matter what it is, right?

338
00:18:00,738 --> 00:18:01,588
it's inflation,

339
00:18:01,868 --> 00:18:05,048
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, but this is, exactly, it's dilution inflation.

340
00:18:05,048 --> 00:18:07,408
It's the same thing as when it happens to your money, it happens to culture.

341
00:18:07,408 --> 00:18:10,118
I mean, I've never thought about that, but that's a very good, very

342
00:18:10,118 --> 00:18:11,308
good way to phrase it, I think.

343
00:18:12,098 --> 00:18:14,778
So, you know, when it, when it comes to conferences, I was just saying this

344
00:18:14,818 --> 00:18:19,128
before, is, um, beyond, beyond the fact of just making it big and watering it

345
00:18:19,138 --> 00:18:23,058
down, the other thing I think is, like, the narrative is very, very stale, right?

346
00:18:23,418 --> 00:18:29,748
Um, you know, it's all still is and has been for, you know, ever since 2018,

347
00:18:29,748 --> 00:18:30,388
2019, it's all about the narrative.

348
00:18:30,388 --> 00:18:32,728
Sound money and, and the moneys of Bitcoin.

349
00:18:32,758 --> 00:18:33,028
Right.

350
00:18:33,028 --> 00:18:34,228
Which of course it is.

351
00:18:34,228 --> 00:18:36,598
And you know, it's, in my opinion, the best money in the world.

352
00:18:37,168 --> 00:18:41,278
But I think, you know, we've still made those arguments pretty well by this point.

353
00:18:41,278 --> 00:18:41,428
Right.

354
00:18:41,428 --> 00:18:43,408
You know, there's so much stuff that's been written and I

355
00:18:43,408 --> 00:18:44,578
think it is really good stuff.

356
00:18:44,578 --> 00:18:44,788
Right.

357
00:18:44,788 --> 00:18:45,838
They're all good messages.

358
00:18:46,258 --> 00:18:49,058
But, they've been said, they're done, they're written, right, you know,

359
00:18:49,348 --> 00:18:53,208
and you don't want to hear the same guys giving the same talk every year

360
00:18:53,248 --> 00:18:55,098
over and over, which is what these conferences are, I think it's like

361
00:18:55,108 --> 00:18:58,348
the Rolling Stones, you know, playing their greatest hits, right, the Rolling

362
00:18:58,348 --> 00:19:02,718
Stones have some really amazing songs, but if you've gone and seen them play

363
00:19:02,718 --> 00:19:06,128
live, playing their greatest hits ten times, you're going to, uh, I think

364
00:19:06,188 --> 00:19:07,308
I'll skip it this year, right, you know.

365
00:19:07,953 --> 00:19:13,943
So, to what I see happening here, um, a little, and that I think, I just can't

366
00:19:13,943 --> 00:19:16,683
believe this isn't more of a thing, is like, if you want this movement

367
00:19:16,693 --> 00:19:20,273
to succeed, and you as a conference promoter want people to come to your

368
00:19:20,273 --> 00:19:23,913
conferences, you've got to keep it new and interesting and shift things up, right?

369
00:19:24,223 --> 00:19:26,043
And so you've got to find people out there in the community.

370
00:19:26,233 --> 00:19:30,053
In the, in the community out there who, who aren't speaking at conferences,

371
00:19:30,053 --> 00:19:31,563
aren't big, aren't famous, right?

372
00:19:31,563 --> 00:19:35,763
If we were to turn the analogy of like a music, uh, festival, you know, there's,

373
00:19:35,793 --> 00:19:40,543
there's bands that, that aren't known, but if you gave them a chance and used your

374
00:19:40,543 --> 00:19:43,443
festivals as a way to expose them to more people, they could get bigger, and it's

375
00:19:43,443 --> 00:19:46,503
in your interest, because if you're having the same bands play every year, people

376
00:19:46,503 --> 00:19:47,263
don't want to come to your conference.

377
00:19:47,583 --> 00:19:48,233
Festival again.

378
00:19:48,593 --> 00:19:52,023
But if you can help this new blood come up, then it's in your interest because

379
00:19:52,023 --> 00:19:54,693
you can put them on the stage and you can bring people to your event, right?

380
00:19:54,963 --> 00:19:57,793
And I think the same thing should be done, uh, for this.

381
00:19:58,073 --> 00:19:59,993
I mean, obviously, I think it should be done for the, for

382
00:19:59,993 --> 00:20:01,213
the good of Bitcoin, right?

383
00:20:01,213 --> 00:20:02,453
There's, it's not just the money in this.

384
00:20:02,463 --> 00:20:04,193
There's many different aspects to Bitcoin.

385
00:20:04,193 --> 00:20:06,473
It's a very interesting, you know, I, I say it's like the,

386
00:20:06,523 --> 00:20:08,123
uh, uh, Rorschach's test, right?

387
00:20:08,133 --> 00:20:10,973
Like what you see in the inkblot reflects more about you and I, but

388
00:20:11,153 --> 00:20:13,923
we can look at the same thing and see two totally different things, right?

389
00:20:13,923 --> 00:20:14,293
Yeah.

390
00:20:14,533 --> 00:20:17,523
So I think it's in the interest of Bitcoin to get people to flesh these

391
00:20:17,523 --> 00:20:20,883
out, these narratives, and give them an opportunity to do it and to get it out in

392
00:20:20,883 --> 00:20:22,863
people's heads and for them to hear this.

393
00:20:22,933 --> 00:20:25,743
But it's also, um, it's also in the interest of them as

394
00:20:25,743 --> 00:20:27,453
like conference promoters.

395
00:20:27,503 --> 00:20:30,223
Like I said, if it's just the same people all the time, it's going to peter out.

396
00:20:30,253 --> 00:20:33,183
And I feel like Honeybadger is one of the few places that's trying to do that,

397
00:20:33,303 --> 00:20:37,073
Yeah, and I mean, in my perspective, HoneyBadger, two years ago, was

398
00:20:37,073 --> 00:20:38,663
my first ever conference, right?

399
00:20:38,903 --> 00:20:42,193
And so, I mean, that's already my newness in this space

400
00:20:42,193 --> 00:20:43,443
compared to you guys, but still.

401
00:20:43,863 --> 00:20:46,543
HoneyBadger has been fantastic for me from that perspective, and

402
00:20:46,543 --> 00:20:48,543
like, the signal, that's the focus.

403
00:20:48,543 --> 00:20:51,903
But we talked to Max Kai about this not long ago.

404
00:20:52,183 --> 00:20:56,853
About how is the Latvian community doing and Honeybadger hasn't really

405
00:20:56,863 --> 00:20:59,563
focused on growing the local community.

406
00:20:59,643 --> 00:21:04,123
It's been bringing the signal into one place and everyone learned

407
00:21:04,123 --> 00:21:06,623
from each other and all this and it's a fantastic event for Bitcoin,

408
00:21:06,963 --> 00:21:08,303
but that's that's one style of.

409
00:21:09,228 --> 00:21:13,398
And then there's these other ones that are all about, uh, I mean, the American

410
00:21:13,398 --> 00:21:18,148
ones, especially like the Nashvilles and all this, those are, you know, these

411
00:21:18,148 --> 00:21:21,738
entertainment fests and all this, and I think they've also brought this to

412
00:21:21,818 --> 00:21:26,328
Amsterdam here in Europe, but I think Prague and Madeira here this last year

413
00:21:26,328 --> 00:21:30,958
were both examples of conferences that went a bit bigger, but have also have a

414
00:21:30,958 --> 00:21:36,348
layer of the local adoption, and I think those types of conferences are Those

415
00:21:36,348 --> 00:21:37,578
are important for a different reason.

416
00:21:37,578 --> 00:21:42,058
Like the, the one that, uh, Bulgaria is the example that I use, uh, I use a lot,

417
00:21:42,078 --> 00:21:46,398
like that, that, uh, they, they do a good thing there to build the local adoption.

418
00:21:46,398 --> 00:21:50,188
And so get some speakers, get some international presence to, to sort

419
00:21:50,188 --> 00:21:52,638
of show here's what this is, right?

420
00:21:52,938 --> 00:21:58,508
But, but focus on the local side of it and building the adoption in that locale.

421
00:21:58,508 --> 00:21:59,688
I think that's quite the idea.

422
00:22:00,058 --> 00:22:01,578
on diversity and inclusion,

423
00:22:03,398 --> 00:22:03,708
That's so

424
00:22:03,718 --> 00:22:07,268
mean, I think it's true, like, you know, as a New Zealander, we're kind

425
00:22:07,268 --> 00:22:10,488
of in this interesting position where, you know, it's a very Western kind

426
00:22:10,488 --> 00:22:13,018
of culture, but we're somewhere in between Europe and America, right?

427
00:22:13,018 --> 00:22:16,438
So, if you're European, you obviously, you're kind of biased and polarized

428
00:22:16,448 --> 00:22:18,578
to a European way of doing things, Americans are the other, and we're

429
00:22:18,588 --> 00:22:19,688
somewhat in the middle, right?

430
00:22:19,688 --> 00:22:20,488
So we see them both.

431
00:22:21,348 --> 00:22:25,158
From different angles, and there's pros and cons from both, and I'm sure I'm

432
00:22:25,158 --> 00:22:27,618
going to offend some American people saying this, but I'm just going to say it.

433
00:22:27,878 --> 00:22:32,218
European conferences are a thousand times fucking better than American ones.

434
00:22:32,218 --> 00:22:36,858
And I've seen almost none that I feel like really did a good job.

435
00:22:36,868 --> 00:22:39,528
I mean, I think something like TabConf does it well, but I think

436
00:22:39,528 --> 00:22:42,468
technical conferences are a slightly different kind of thing, right?

437
00:22:42,468 --> 00:22:42,648
You know,

438
00:22:42,748 --> 00:22:43,598
different beast.

439
00:22:43,768 --> 00:22:45,948
all there about technology, but if you're trying to do something

440
00:22:45,948 --> 00:22:49,778
where People talk of talking about more general people stuff, right?

441
00:22:50,348 --> 00:22:53,948
American things is just all about money, all about being loud, and there's just no

442
00:22:53,948 --> 00:22:55,648
soul, right, as I feel in those things.

443
00:22:55,658 --> 00:22:57,318
Like, big and commercial and plastic.

444
00:22:57,808 --> 00:23:01,808
No soul, and I feel like Europeans just seem to be able to do that much better.

445
00:23:02,688 --> 00:23:05,658
Sorry to any Americans watching this, but that's been my impression.

446
00:23:05,953 --> 00:23:11,383
Honey Badger clearly has the soul, and I mean, uh, yeah, I, like, the local

447
00:23:11,383 --> 00:23:15,443
adoption thing, that's not a dig, it's just not what they've decided to focus

448
00:23:15,443 --> 00:23:21,113
on, so it's, uh, yeah, um, I think we, uh, I hope, I hope this conference, uh, I'll

449
00:23:21,113 --> 00:23:23,093
be attending every year, um, you know,

450
00:23:23,188 --> 00:23:23,688
Yeah.

451
00:23:23,878 --> 00:23:27,778
And that's, that's why I love to see so many Americans over in Europe, like this

452
00:23:27,778 --> 00:23:32,748
last year, uh, first of all, Madeira, a ton of Americans came over, both

453
00:23:32,828 --> 00:23:35,408
speakers and attendees and uh, also.

454
00:23:35,863 --> 00:23:41,613
Uh, Prague, and here, like, you have, uh, quite a few here too, and it's very,

455
00:23:41,643 --> 00:23:45,733
and quite a few high level ones, and it's good to have them here to give them,

456
00:23:46,093 --> 00:23:48,293
give them a taste of what this is like.

457
00:23:49,558 --> 00:23:52,768
to, like, spread it around, I mean, to me, the whole, I mean, I'm a guy that likes

458
00:23:52,768 --> 00:23:56,238
to have a drink and hang out with people and things like that, so, you know, it's

459
00:23:56,238 --> 00:23:59,008
a big party, really, a conference, in a lot of ways, you know, and so, I mean,

460
00:23:59,008 --> 00:24:02,178
I think I enjoy that element of it, but again, you know, I think there's just

461
00:24:02,178 --> 00:24:06,288
so much value in, you know, You know, we all talk online and stuff and you,

462
00:24:06,298 --> 00:24:08,968
you know, I, I see what you're writing to someone else and things like that.

463
00:24:09,328 --> 00:24:12,448
But to, to be able to humanize and talk to some of these people, and

464
00:24:12,488 --> 00:24:14,598
some of them you meet them and you realize, oh, this guy isn't actually

465
00:24:14,598 --> 00:24:17,848
such a dickhead after all, I guess, you know, or, or the opposite, right?

466
00:24:17,858 --> 00:24:20,158
This person that you think is really high integrity or whatever, and you

467
00:24:20,158 --> 00:24:22,958
meet them, you're like, man, this person, I have a very bad feeling

468
00:24:22,958 --> 00:24:23,998
about this kind of person, right?

469
00:24:24,018 --> 00:24:26,338
So I think that's a very important thing is like, I mean, sure, if you're

470
00:24:26,338 --> 00:24:30,318
a casual participant, you know, maybe a conference ticket is expensive as it

471
00:24:30,318 --> 00:24:31,588
is, let alone flying to somewhere else.

472
00:24:31,588 --> 00:24:34,508
But if you're really enmeshed in this world, I think you owe it on yourself to

473
00:24:34,508 --> 00:24:37,898
go and like physically meet people and there's just such a value in that which

474
00:24:37,898 --> 00:24:39,828
um, is difficult to articulate, you know?

475
00:24:40,474 --> 00:24:43,643
Yeah,

476
00:24:43,668 --> 00:24:49,548
hard to find new ideas and new, uh, uh, new angles to view this.

477
00:24:49,668 --> 00:24:54,108
I mean, I, I had writer's block for the longest time before

478
00:24:54,138 --> 00:24:57,898
starting the new book and before I had ideas good enough to pursue.

479
00:24:58,288 --> 00:25:03,048
And it's, uh, it's getting increasingly harder with each book, of course,

480
00:25:03,078 --> 00:25:05,958
because there's only this so many times you can say the same thing,

481
00:25:06,303 --> 00:25:09,873
I know the feeling of, of like, uh, you know, like I'm thinking about,

482
00:25:10,023 --> 00:25:13,793
because I've, I've been invited as I've been told to speak here every year.

483
00:25:13,833 --> 00:25:16,943
Um, and so I'm thinking, okay, when I went to about next year, I'm like, Oh man, like

484
00:25:17,523 --> 00:25:19,213
what to do two or three things, right.

485
00:25:19,213 --> 00:25:22,913
It's like to avoid just repeating it or slightly changing or morally saying the

486
00:25:22,913 --> 00:25:26,833
same thing is like, it's a big ass to do, but I mean, I think that's, that,

487
00:25:26,843 --> 00:25:29,113
that also is a way of, of rather than.

488
00:25:29,468 --> 00:25:32,838
Um, you're right thinking that we've got to write the whole story ourselves

489
00:25:32,838 --> 00:25:36,678
and it's on you to like come up with new ideas for 10 years in a row.

490
00:25:37,258 --> 00:25:40,528
It's more like you have your little thing and it's best just like hone

491
00:25:40,528 --> 00:25:42,038
that message really, really well.

492
00:25:42,288 --> 00:25:46,118
And this is how I feel about it is I used to think with conferences, no, I

493
00:25:46,118 --> 00:25:47,838
never want to give the same talk twice.

494
00:25:47,838 --> 00:25:49,568
I want to do it, you know, once and something every

495
00:25:49,568 --> 00:25:50,578
time has to be something new.

496
00:25:50,908 --> 00:25:53,678
But I kind of realized after doing a bunch of them is like, well, most people

497
00:25:53,678 --> 00:25:55,308
aren't going to see you talk anyway.

498
00:25:55,348 --> 00:25:55,728
All right.

499
00:25:55,728 --> 00:25:57,963
Or they're not going to.

500
00:25:58,553 --> 00:26:02,813
You know, take the time to or they're not gonna appreciate in the moment that that

501
00:26:02,813 --> 00:26:07,678
it was right then right and there's real value not just Um, for you personally in

502
00:26:07,678 --> 00:26:11,178
terms of like, when you give a talk once, it's probably going to be better the third

503
00:26:11,178 --> 00:26:14,788
or fourth or fifth time that you give it, right, but there's also value to repeating

504
00:26:14,788 --> 00:26:18,568
the same message, right, which to me almost felt like false or a cop out, but

505
00:26:18,568 --> 00:26:21,508
no, I think now, after doing it a while, there's actually something to be done

506
00:26:21,508 --> 00:26:25,808
with that, which is take one small thing and focus on that small area and don't

507
00:26:25,818 --> 00:26:29,488
try and be like, completely reinventing yourself, like, tomorrow you're going

508
00:26:29,488 --> 00:26:33,548
to be talking about some weird economics and then you're How bitcoin is art, or

509
00:26:33,548 --> 00:26:36,698
something, you know, I mean like, just take one thing and build your little

510
00:26:36,848 --> 00:26:40,618
notice around that and really, really hone that particular message, because like

511
00:26:40,788 --> 00:26:44,948
we've done with the um, economic stuff, right, I think we've really steel manned

512
00:26:44,948 --> 00:26:48,348
that idea, and there's just anything, any objection that someone could have about

513
00:26:48,348 --> 00:26:52,038
the money stuff, someone has written just the best thing and you're just like, bam,

514
00:26:52,038 --> 00:26:53,608
and you haven't asked your every question.

515
00:26:53,608 --> 00:26:56,858
There's real value for us as a community in doing that, but that just comes from

516
00:26:57,148 --> 00:27:01,468
a small amount of people focus, doing focus work on one particular thing, so.

517
00:27:01,873 --> 00:27:04,243
That's funny, that reminds me of comedians.

518
00:27:04,243 --> 00:27:07,633
I mean comedians are like some of the most visible people on podcasts and

519
00:27:07,633 --> 00:27:11,083
stuff because for some reason people like to listen to funny people be funny or

520
00:27:11,083 --> 00:27:18,963
something like that, but you know, you hear about their process of literally

521
00:27:18,963 --> 00:27:24,343
going around and touring and working on their jokes and stuff like that, the

522
00:27:24,343 --> 00:27:28,583
same ones, they don't do a new act every year, Every night, you know, they, they

523
00:27:28,583 --> 00:27:32,293
work on it and then, and then eventually they, they record it and everything.

524
00:27:32,313 --> 00:27:33,873
And then, and then that's, that's it.

525
00:27:33,893 --> 00:27:35,783
That's actually not a bad model for, for this

526
00:27:35,823 --> 00:27:37,373
I think a good analogy, right?

527
00:27:37,373 --> 00:27:41,723
I mean, like, you can't tell the same joke for 10 years, but you wouldn't want to

528
00:27:41,723 --> 00:27:46,223
try and rewrite a whole new, like, half an hour comedy skit every, you just, I

529
00:27:46,223 --> 00:27:49,843
mean, trying to write some of these talks is, is, maybe I'm just a moron, right?

530
00:27:49,843 --> 00:27:52,673
But, but trying to write some of these talks is, it takes months, right?

531
00:27:52,673 --> 00:27:56,383
And, and when I do it, I've just got, like, pretty much memorize half

532
00:27:56,383 --> 00:27:59,783
an hour of stuff and then practice it so it becomes more natural.

533
00:27:59,993 --> 00:28:01,433
But I mean, like, trying to do that.

534
00:28:02,038 --> 00:28:04,908
You know, if I was trying to do this like six times a year, I stick to like three

535
00:28:04,928 --> 00:28:06,788
because it's too much for me, right?

536
00:28:06,788 --> 00:28:07,998
But imagine trying to do it six times a year.

537
00:28:07,998 --> 00:28:11,118
You just can't do that alone unless you're full time working on it.

538
00:28:11,448 --> 00:28:14,188
So, you know, there's lots of reasons why I think just one small thing

539
00:28:14,188 --> 00:28:15,618
repeated it actually has some value.

540
00:28:15,658 --> 00:28:16,008
Yeah.

541
00:28:16,718 --> 00:28:21,408
No, and uh, um, do you think there are any like narratives around

542
00:28:21,418 --> 00:28:25,118
Bitcoin or, uh, thoughts around it that are actually dangerous?

543
00:28:25,218 --> 00:28:28,428
Like the, the people are on the wrong track?

544
00:28:28,798 --> 00:28:33,078
Uh, I mean like the stuff I talked about before, right, where I think the message

545
00:28:33,078 --> 00:28:38,698
is being deluded and it's dangerous and that like the analogy which I was supposed

546
00:28:38,698 --> 00:28:42,498
to make in this talk but I actually kind of like As you do, you know, skip over

547
00:28:42,498 --> 00:28:45,848
or like move around some things that you were going to say, but you didn't say.

548
00:28:46,238 --> 00:28:49,938
The thing like, the real risk to me is that, um, if we don't change

549
00:28:50,158 --> 00:28:52,278
people's view on what technology is.

550
00:28:52,278 --> 00:28:53,668
Like, people want something that's familiar.

551
00:28:53,718 --> 00:28:55,098
They want to recreate what they know.

552
00:28:55,098 --> 00:28:56,318
It's human nature, right?

553
00:28:56,868 --> 00:28:59,868
And so, for you as a business owner, or someone that's creating something and

554
00:28:59,868 --> 00:29:03,028
trying to get more Bitcoiners on board, which I think there's maybe a little too

555
00:29:03,048 --> 00:29:06,408
much emphasis on, it's just more people in the door, so the number can go up.

556
00:29:07,058 --> 00:29:09,718
The more you do that, the more people try to make it understandable and

557
00:29:09,718 --> 00:29:12,758
relatable by people, so they make it more like what it already is.

558
00:29:13,063 --> 00:29:15,903
And by making it more like what it already is, the whole idea about Bitcoin

559
00:29:15,903 --> 00:29:18,863
is changing what it already is in terms of money and things like that.

560
00:29:19,193 --> 00:29:22,603
I think the risk that we run is like recreating the existing financial system

561
00:29:22,603 --> 00:29:23,953
with an orange coat of paint, right?

562
00:29:23,953 --> 00:29:27,023
The same, same thing, but yeah, just with different words,

563
00:29:27,023 --> 00:29:28,433
different wardrobe change, right?

564
00:29:28,783 --> 00:29:32,783
So I think that's, that's probably to me is the most dangerous thing where, I know

565
00:29:32,783 --> 00:29:37,008
I'm someone that's like very much the privacy, freedom, self custodial kind of

566
00:29:37,008 --> 00:29:40,108
thing, and very anti KYC, all this kind of stuff, but you know, having worked

567
00:29:40,108 --> 00:29:43,088
at companies like this, I understand why these things are necessary, and there

568
00:29:43,088 --> 00:29:47,728
is also an argument why you would say, well, sure, it's KYC, but if a lot of

569
00:29:47,738 --> 00:29:51,178
people buy Bitcoin, it doesn't matter if it's KYC, because we've defunded the

570
00:29:51,178 --> 00:29:53,638
government, you know, so there is a, like, there's a middle ground here to

571
00:29:53,648 --> 00:29:58,213
be, to be found, But I think probably that's what I'm getting to the, the

572
00:29:58,213 --> 00:30:00,103
real point is, is like a nuance, right?

573
00:30:00,143 --> 00:30:02,663
You know, somewhere in between those two polarized things, there's

574
00:30:02,663 --> 00:30:03,963
the, the right way to do it.

575
00:30:03,963 --> 00:30:07,033
And it's probably not going to be universal in all situations what it

576
00:30:07,033 --> 00:30:09,353
is, but there's just a real lack of.

577
00:30:10,043 --> 00:30:13,333
Like, um, how would we say, like, intellectual rigorousness

578
00:30:13,353 --> 00:30:14,153
in this space, right?

579
00:30:14,153 --> 00:30:18,003
I think, like, people, to me, the best book on Bitcoin is, like, uh, Erik

580
00:30:18,183 --> 00:30:22,153
Voskiel's Crypto Economics, because, like, uh, you know, I largely agree

581
00:30:22,153 --> 00:30:25,253
with most, almost everything he says, not everyone does, but I don't think

582
00:30:25,313 --> 00:30:30,018
that you can argue that that is the most rigorous Comprehensive body

583
00:30:30,018 --> 00:30:32,598
of work about this is what bitcoin is and this is how it functions.

584
00:30:32,598 --> 00:30:35,718
You know these axiomatic truths as he describes it It's a it's a whole

585
00:30:35,738 --> 00:30:39,618
system that all links together and to return to like the religion talk I

586
00:30:39,628 --> 00:30:43,458
gave last year It's like if you look at Christianity, right, you know,

587
00:30:43,458 --> 00:30:47,548
you have like baptism, Catholicism, Protestantism all these kind of things

588
00:30:47,548 --> 00:30:49,078
right and they're it's so detailed.

589
00:30:49,078 --> 00:30:53,718
It's like well because in Ephesians 12 16 Jesus said this or that or whatever you

590
00:30:53,718 --> 00:30:57,528
should only wear a red shirt on Tuesdays or something It's that level of detail of

591
00:30:57,528 --> 00:31:00,838
like They've thought about every aspect of the Bible and what this should mean

592
00:31:00,838 --> 00:31:02,478
and they have like this detailed view.

593
00:31:02,718 --> 00:31:05,358
And I think there's a lot of value for that because as I said, like, there

594
00:31:05,358 --> 00:31:09,398
are many different views in this, in this spectrum about what works for

595
00:31:09,398 --> 00:31:13,308
Bitcoin and I think we win by having this marketplace of ideas, but we

596
00:31:13,308 --> 00:31:14,373
don't win if they're like very pure.

597
00:31:14,373 --> 00:31:18,003
They're very poorly fleshed out ideas and they're very kind of naïve or immature

598
00:31:18,213 --> 00:31:21,873
and when by all these different schools of thought having the most rigorous,

599
00:31:22,183 --> 00:31:27,113
intense, deep body of work to help explain and understand why you should look at

600
00:31:27,113 --> 00:31:29,743
Bitcoin from this angle or see it this way or why it should be done this way.

601
00:31:30,183 --> 00:31:34,263
You're the, you're the second person this week to, to say crypto, uh, crypto

602
00:31:34,708 --> 00:31:35,128
It's great.

603
00:31:35,198 --> 00:31:35,908
It's just crazy.

604
00:31:35,908 --> 00:31:38,628
It's not, not more, I mean, it's a, it's a pretty dense book, right?

605
00:31:38,628 --> 00:31:41,098
You know, it's not for a beginner's book, but it's crazy that it's

606
00:31:41,098 --> 00:31:42,928
not bigger in my mind, you know.

607
00:31:44,218 --> 00:31:48,028
someone should write a, you know, new version of that.

608
00:31:48,233 --> 00:31:49,603
Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, very much

609
00:31:49,778 --> 00:31:51,068
I mean, but this is the thing, right?

610
00:31:51,118 --> 00:31:54,968
Is, is like, it's, it's rigorous because I think, and why I really like it as

611
00:31:54,968 --> 00:31:59,018
well is it's the only book that goes that level of depth and is thick and is, you

612
00:31:59,018 --> 00:32:00,808
know, really deep on this kind of stuff.

613
00:32:00,808 --> 00:32:01,968
And the whole point is like.

614
00:32:02,728 --> 00:32:05,898
And you see Erik on Twitter, he's very much, he's like such a pedantic

615
00:32:05,898 --> 00:32:08,918
motherfucker about trapping someone down about the way they say particular

616
00:32:08,918 --> 00:32:10,338
words, because it matters, right?

617
00:32:10,338 --> 00:32:11,118
It does matter, right?

618
00:32:11,378 --> 00:32:14,858
Like these loose definitions of what you think this word means, what I think it

619
00:32:14,898 --> 00:32:18,768
means, makes me think that we're talking the same language, but actually you, I

620
00:32:18,778 --> 00:32:21,658
haven't communicated to you effectively what is inside my brain, right?

621
00:32:21,908 --> 00:32:25,128
And so like this level of detail is really important for something like Bitcoin,

622
00:32:25,138 --> 00:32:29,578
because like imagine you're navigating and you say, oh, it's, it's, it's

623
00:32:29,578 --> 00:32:31,348
that way, a hundred meters, it's fine.

624
00:32:31,348 --> 00:32:34,453
But if it's like, 300 kilometers, you can end up in a very different

625
00:32:34,453 --> 00:32:38,223
place than if you said these, these grid coordinates, you know, this

626
00:32:38,233 --> 00:32:39,583
GPS coordinate, stuff like that.

627
00:32:39,763 --> 00:32:43,423
So specificity is really, really important and language is the, the

628
00:32:43,423 --> 00:32:47,953
map, the navigation system we use to arrive at like a, a distance

629
00:32:47,953 --> 00:32:49,603
in the, uh, an idea in the future.

630
00:32:49,603 --> 00:32:51,223
And so, I think there's value to that.

631
00:32:51,553 --> 00:32:56,353
Yeah, and I think this is, human action by Ludwig von Mises is dense

632
00:32:56,403 --> 00:33:00,573
and, and very meticulously written for the exact same reason, right?

633
00:33:00,613 --> 00:33:01,973
You need this rigorous thing.

634
00:33:02,253 --> 00:33:06,983
And I know from writing a smaller book on praxeology, it's really, it's really hard

635
00:33:06,983 --> 00:33:12,203
because you have to be very, very careful with your words to get it right, uh, which

636
00:33:12,223 --> 00:33:16,838
is why I like writing, uh, Something like the Inverse of Clown World more because

637
00:33:16,838 --> 00:33:18,608
I can be more expressive, you know.

638
00:33:19,363 --> 00:33:22,813
Uh, man, I've thought about doing the book thing and maybe one day I will,

639
00:33:22,813 --> 00:33:25,633
but I'm like, oh man, I just, I can't imagine what you have to go through to,

640
00:33:25,633 --> 00:33:29,053
to produce something of like this size, which is not the largest book, like man.

641
00:33:30,073 --> 00:33:34,953
Wow, you know, hats off to people that write a book, right, because, like I

642
00:33:34,953 --> 00:33:37,393
said, I've thought about it, but when I've looked at what's involved, I'm like,

643
00:33:37,688 --> 00:33:39,538
Well, send us a DM and we'll help you.

644
00:33:39,558 --> 00:33:40,748
Heh heh heh heh

645
00:33:40,853 --> 00:33:43,113
maybe they will come about, I need to write more, I mean, this is the way

646
00:33:43,113 --> 00:33:45,673
they say you do it, right, is like you write a bunch of articles and you

647
00:33:45,673 --> 00:33:48,693
turn the articles into a book, right, so I've kind of thought about maybe I

648
00:33:48,833 --> 00:33:50,913
can go down this road, but we'll see.

649
00:33:51,038 --> 00:33:52,268
Oh, looking forward to it.

650
00:33:52,268 --> 00:33:53,548
Heh heh heh heh.

651
00:35:49,642 --> 00:35:52,402
So what, uh, what do you think of, of Nostr?

652
00:35:52,452 --> 00:35:55,842
Uh, the, the whole, the, the, the combination of this

653
00:35:55,862 --> 00:35:57,512
Nostriga and Honeybadger.

654
00:35:57,542 --> 00:35:59,442
First of all, that was, it was a brilliant move, I think, to,

655
00:35:59,472 --> 00:36:00,922
to attach the two together.

656
00:36:01,152 --> 00:36:04,202
Uh, there's, there's talk that the next time they'll, they'll do that is they'll

657
00:36:04,202 --> 00:36:08,362
attach it to, uh, also Freedom Forum, which is, which is also a very good idea.

658
00:36:08,362 --> 00:36:09,852
A different angle, but very good idea.

659
00:36:10,052 --> 00:36:13,452
But Nostr and Bitcoin are becoming really intertwined these days.

660
00:36:13,682 --> 00:36:17,332
Uh, many, many applications that were Bitcoin applications have now.

661
00:36:18,387 --> 00:36:23,497
Also become Nostr applications and yeah, what do you see Nostr in the space here?

662
00:36:23,642 --> 00:36:26,562
Difficult for me to say because like I've really wanted to sit down

663
00:36:26,562 --> 00:36:31,032
and really get my head technically around Nostr and I haven't, right?

664
00:36:31,032 --> 00:36:34,012
You know, like I understand basically how it works, but as far as like there's some

665
00:36:34,012 --> 00:36:38,182
critiques on Nostr which I would like to have a more informed opinion on than I do.

666
00:36:38,527 --> 00:36:42,167
And, um, like, I know Peter Todd reasonably well, and like, last night

667
00:36:42,167 --> 00:36:44,807
we were, I was saying, like, basically, okay, just tell, tell me, you know,

668
00:36:44,867 --> 00:36:48,327
like, tell me what things is, so at least when I get to look at this, I've

669
00:36:48,327 --> 00:36:52,337
got, because he's kind of anti, or anti a lot of aspects of it, right, he thinks

670
00:36:52,337 --> 00:36:55,707
it doesn't work, um, so, I mean, based on that, like I said, it's, it's not a

671
00:36:55,707 --> 00:37:01,107
nuanced, informed opinion, but I think, um, my concern, perhaps, is that, like,

672
00:37:01,987 --> 00:37:05,807
It's actually not that good a protocol on the, on the base level for certain things.

673
00:37:05,937 --> 00:37:10,447
Like it's ability to deliver decentralized Twitter, all the millions

674
00:37:10,457 --> 00:37:13,977
of applications we have on mine for Nostr at scale is going to be possible.

675
00:37:13,977 --> 00:37:18,302
And again, I can't say One way or the other, but that's my concern about it.

676
00:37:18,322 --> 00:37:21,842
And, and one thing that returning to what I was talking earlier about the

677
00:37:21,842 --> 00:37:25,362
subcultures and things like that, fortunately in the Bitcoin space, I

678
00:37:25,362 --> 00:37:30,362
think we've got a little tendency to be overly supportive and overly passionate.

679
00:37:30,362 --> 00:37:31,082
And I think that's.

680
00:37:31,532 --> 00:37:33,442
Definitely preferable to the alternative, right?

681
00:37:33,442 --> 00:37:36,312
You want the space to be something where people come from the outside and they

682
00:37:36,312 --> 00:37:41,072
feel like this is full of energy and love and happiness and good times and smiles.

683
00:37:41,722 --> 00:37:42,572
That draws people in.

684
00:37:42,592 --> 00:37:45,182
And if it's the opposite and people are too cynical or bitter

685
00:37:45,182 --> 00:37:49,142
or tough, right, it's not going to pull more people into the space.

686
00:37:49,152 --> 00:37:49,802
That's what we need.

687
00:37:50,252 --> 00:37:52,952
But again, you know, I think there's a bit of a lack in the space of

688
00:37:52,952 --> 00:37:56,317
people who are willing to Call out, you know, say a spade's a spade.

689
00:37:56,317 --> 00:37:57,097
There's a problem here.

690
00:37:57,097 --> 00:37:58,027
We need to fix this.

691
00:37:58,317 --> 00:38:00,847
There's a bit of a lack with that and that that would be the only thing I feel

692
00:38:00,847 --> 00:38:06,777
with with Nostr is You know, some people I was talking to a friend of mine about

693
00:38:06,777 --> 00:38:10,527
this before and he described I mean, he's kind of talking about the conferences

694
00:38:10,527 --> 00:38:12,227
thing but a bit of a circle jerk, right?

695
00:38:12,567 --> 00:38:17,702
And I, my only concern that I see as an outsider with Nostr is that Is this like

696
00:38:17,702 --> 00:38:20,602
a science project and a bit of a circle jerk where there's something where it's

697
00:38:20,602 --> 00:38:23,742
got a tiny amount of people and there's all this energy and noise, but it's,

698
00:38:23,802 --> 00:38:27,012
it's all like, it's, it's its own self contained thing, right outside this little

699
00:38:27,012 --> 00:38:30,772
bubble, no one cares and, and it's a bunch of people celebrating how great they

700
00:38:30,772 --> 00:38:33,672
are creating this thing for themselves, thinking it's a tool for the world.

701
00:38:33,842 --> 00:38:37,592
So, I mean, I think it is great and I'm really interested in it primarily from the

702
00:38:37,592 --> 00:38:41,282
perspective of like, what to me is, this is kind of what my talk about was about

703
00:38:41,282 --> 00:38:42,992
today about Bitcoin as performance art.

704
00:38:44,077 --> 00:38:48,097
Bitcoin isn't just about money, it's also about telling a story, about showing

705
00:38:48,117 --> 00:38:51,337
an alternative narrative to what the governments or corporations give us.

706
00:38:51,647 --> 00:38:55,107
And that narrative is about how we can use technology and open source and

707
00:38:55,107 --> 00:38:58,767
things like this to create our own better alternatives and we don't have to use

708
00:38:58,907 --> 00:39:00,177
what they tell us they have to use.

709
00:39:00,387 --> 00:39:04,647
And so I like Nostr in the sense that it's like a, It's like the artistic inspiration

710
00:39:04,647 --> 00:39:08,117
of Bitcoin is created at Nostr, right, so we're spiritually inspired by Bitcoin.

711
00:39:08,117 --> 00:39:11,597
It's like a lot of the lessons that we've learned from Bitcoin have been

712
00:39:11,597 --> 00:39:15,037
applied to how Nostr is created, right, it's kind of born of Bitcoin.

713
00:39:15,417 --> 00:39:20,317
And so to me, um, regardless of like the reservations or the possible issues

714
00:39:20,317 --> 00:39:24,177
like I talked about before, to me what's far more interesting is someone said,

715
00:39:24,177 --> 00:39:27,437
look, hey, Bitcoin works really well at prioritizing decentralized money.

716
00:39:27,707 --> 00:39:29,687
How can we take the lessons there and apply that to

717
00:39:29,877 --> 00:39:31,167
communication and other things?

718
00:39:31,167 --> 00:39:31,617
And I think.

719
00:39:32,017 --> 00:39:34,637
To me, that is a more important thing, is like, if this can

720
00:39:34,637 --> 00:39:36,487
happen to many other technologies.

721
00:39:37,032 --> 00:39:37,852
It makes sense, right?

722
00:39:37,852 --> 00:39:40,342
Like, uh, in my talk, I talked about the Liberator pistol

723
00:39:40,352 --> 00:39:41,652
being another example of this.

724
00:39:42,032 --> 00:39:45,522
Now, if you look at Cody Wilson, he said, like, it was supposed

725
00:39:45,522 --> 00:39:46,602
to be a toy gun, a prop gun.

726
00:39:46,602 --> 00:39:49,472
It's not something where you really think it's going to be like an AR 15.

727
00:39:49,732 --> 00:39:50,602
But that wasn't the whole point.

728
00:39:50,602 --> 00:39:51,842
The whole idea is here's something.

729
00:39:52,127 --> 00:39:54,317
Where it's going to get all over the news and the media and people

730
00:39:54,317 --> 00:39:56,847
are going to start talking about and thinking, you know, that the wheels

731
00:39:56,847 --> 00:39:59,917
start to turn the head of, hmm, 3D printing and code, man, like, it's

732
00:39:59,917 --> 00:40:02,397
going to be impossible for governments to stop all this kind of stuff.

733
00:40:02,397 --> 00:40:04,937
And when people start thinking about that, the world starts changing, right?

734
00:40:05,247 --> 00:40:08,317
So I think Bitcoin is amazing money and it's going to change the financial

735
00:40:08,317 --> 00:40:11,627
system, but perhaps what is better is that it gets people thinking

736
00:40:11,627 --> 00:40:12,957
of, wow, we created our own money.

737
00:40:13,192 --> 00:40:16,172
What other stuff can we create if we all work together and have

738
00:40:16,172 --> 00:40:17,212
a vision for the future, right?

739
00:40:17,602 --> 00:40:21,542
So to me that's, in some sense, like, if Bitcoin failed as money, but it

740
00:40:21,542 --> 00:40:24,792
did that, I think that would be a better victory than it not doing that

741
00:40:24,792 --> 00:40:25,762
and just being sound money, right?

742
00:40:26,212 --> 00:40:29,962
So that's, I think, is an important part of Nostr and what I really look forward to

743
00:40:29,962 --> 00:40:32,232
with that is how that dynamic plays out.

744
00:40:32,537 --> 00:40:38,182
Yeah, um I've, I think I've observed, observed a correlation

745
00:40:38,182 --> 00:40:41,852
between disagreeableness and how early you were to Bitcoin.

746
00:40:42,422 --> 00:40:45,532
So like the first couple of years, you get your Voskules

747
00:40:45,532 --> 00:40:46,932
and your Kavaios and what not.

748
00:40:47,302 --> 00:40:50,372
And the further you go down the line, it's, it isn't until like

749
00:40:50,382 --> 00:40:54,047
2021, you get your Joe Halls and your, You're nice people, right?

750
00:40:54,667 --> 00:41:00,287
So, so what do you, uh, and I think the thing that enables the happy

751
00:41:00,287 --> 00:41:04,687
people 10 years down the line is that the disagreeable people were

752
00:41:04,687 --> 00:41:06,137
so rigorous in the beginning.

753
00:41:06,137 --> 00:41:09,477
So you get the don't trust verify, and then it builds in layers

754
00:41:09,917 --> 00:41:13,557
and the happy people can join on the layers on top later on.

755
00:41:13,972 --> 00:41:14,482
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

756
00:41:14,527 --> 00:41:16,907
So, so have you, what's your, what's your

757
00:41:17,202 --> 00:41:19,142
Oh yeah, I mean, I think you're totally right with that.

758
00:41:19,142 --> 00:41:23,232
I'd agree, um, and it kind of speaks somewhat, I mean, I don't think

759
00:41:23,232 --> 00:41:26,702
this is really a problem, but it's a little bit of a tragedy of the commons

760
00:41:26,722 --> 00:41:29,752
problem in Bitcoin, right, where, Zach, you said the people that are

761
00:41:29,762 --> 00:41:32,752
doing, like, open source development is perhaps the best example, right?

762
00:41:33,202 --> 00:41:36,222
You know, if we don't have, like, very smart, talented people working full

763
00:41:36,222 --> 00:41:40,937
time on Bitcoin, You know, even if you think it can be ossified, like, just

764
00:41:40,937 --> 00:41:43,687
if you understand software, right, there's just this maintenance process

765
00:41:43,697 --> 00:41:46,607
that needs to happen, and there's not someone keeping a close eye on that.

766
00:41:46,617 --> 00:41:49,117
It's very easy for Bitcoin to break or to fall apart, right?

767
00:41:49,487 --> 00:41:52,027
Um, and so, but here's these people, but there's no business

768
00:41:52,027 --> 00:41:54,897
model for open source development or maintaining Bitcoin Core, right?

769
00:41:54,897 --> 00:41:56,727
There's no way, I mean, the whole idea of Bitcoin is that

770
00:41:56,727 --> 00:42:00,377
it should never be a revenue generative process as it is, right?

771
00:42:00,947 --> 00:42:03,367
So we need to think of an alternative model, because it's all in our

772
00:42:03,367 --> 00:42:05,187
interests for Bitcoin to succeed.

773
00:42:05,352 --> 00:42:08,102
But we can't just create a business and let it self perpetuate itself.

774
00:42:08,102 --> 00:42:11,082
We've got to come up with a different model of how we can do that, right?

775
00:42:11,372 --> 00:42:13,832
So, you know, there's a, there's a little bit of, all of us are like

776
00:42:14,392 --> 00:42:17,982
free riding on the work of open source developers in that sense, right?

777
00:42:18,172 --> 00:42:21,262
And I think there's a little bit of that when it comes to all these, you

778
00:42:21,262 --> 00:42:24,777
know, happy, joyous kind of people and that like, um, I think a lot of

779
00:42:24,777 --> 00:42:27,857
them, particularly if you've been here for a short amount of time, I think a

780
00:42:27,857 --> 00:42:32,427
lot of people are, have kind of like stars in their eyes or their rose

781
00:42:32,427 --> 00:42:34,387
tinted glasses on about, like, um,

782
00:42:35,517 --> 00:42:38,127
You know, one thing I would definitely say at the moment, and, um, you know, I've,

783
00:42:38,147 --> 00:42:42,412
I've, I've obviously just, um, finished up working for a company, Uh, in the

784
00:42:42,412 --> 00:42:46,672
Bitcoin space is that, um, there's a lot of people, I think the idea of a Bitcoin

785
00:42:46,672 --> 00:42:51,682
scam is a relatively new thing that people aren't looking at, you know, like, uh, if

786
00:42:51,682 --> 00:42:57,792
you're charging 7, 000 to have a out of alpha male retreat, you know, because this

787
00:42:57,792 --> 00:43:01,772
guy is associated with Bitcoin, um, that's a scam, that's a fucking scam, you know,

788
00:43:01,772 --> 00:43:05,722
as far as, I mean, like, hey, maybe it's being honest, uh, marketed honestly, but I

789
00:43:05,722 --> 00:43:09,282
mean, let's look at what's happening here, it's, it's use, association with Bitcoin.

790
00:43:09,857 --> 00:43:12,387
You know, uh, it's, you know, there's the things like, I

791
00:43:12,387 --> 00:43:13,627
like Bitcoin, buy my shitcoin.

792
00:43:13,627 --> 00:43:16,427
It's like, I like Bitcoin, buy my other thing.

793
00:43:16,437 --> 00:43:17,297
Like, it's the next level.

794
00:43:17,340 --> 00:43:17,567
And so I

795
00:43:17,567 --> 00:43:18,787
why is that a scam though?

796
00:43:19,107 --> 00:43:21,987
Well, I mean, I think it's a scam in that, like, if you look at the Okay,

797
00:43:21,987 --> 00:43:23,417
let's take that particular example there.

798
00:43:23,417 --> 00:43:25,837
If you look at the pricing of the resort that was involved, the tickets

799
00:43:25,837 --> 00:43:27,077
are like twice the price, right?

800
00:43:27,077 --> 00:43:28,897
Yeah, I mean, it is in the eye of the beholder, right?

801
00:43:28,937 --> 00:43:31,027
If you feel you're getting value and you're happy to pay that

802
00:43:31,027 --> 00:43:32,587
thing, I mean, it's not a scam.

803
00:43:32,972 --> 00:43:37,922
But I mean, come on, like, uh, there's other examples, taking that particular

804
00:43:37,922 --> 00:43:41,742
person, where, you know, there are things where people are, or, you know,

805
00:43:41,742 --> 00:43:45,337
I think you see this a lot where, um, People are like, uh, here is um,

806
00:43:45,647 --> 00:43:50,347
sound, sound food, or sound diet, or like, open source this or that, right?

807
00:43:50,347 --> 00:43:54,337
You know, where it's, I mean, it's not a scam, but you can see how this

808
00:43:54,337 --> 00:43:58,287
like, um, Bitcoin as a lifestyle brand is being created, right?

809
00:43:58,287 --> 00:43:59,877
And people are trying to market things which really have

810
00:43:59,877 --> 00:44:00,987
nothing to do with Bitcoin.

811
00:44:01,427 --> 00:44:06,577
And again, maybe they're saying this is Bitcoin, but I feel that there

812
00:44:06,577 --> 00:44:10,867
is a lot of people using that as a way to charge an overpriced price

813
00:44:11,247 --> 00:44:12,927
for an undervalued service, right?

814
00:44:13,167 --> 00:44:16,877
And so that's something which I see kind of creeping into the space is a bit of

815
00:44:16,877 --> 00:44:18,757
that sociopath kind of behavior, right?

816
00:44:18,757 --> 00:44:19,917
And I think that's a bit of a risk.

817
00:44:20,042 --> 00:44:20,312
Yeah.

818
00:44:20,312 --> 00:44:24,182
The question is whether you draw the line though, like an an overpriced

819
00:44:24,182 --> 00:44:28,112
thing is, is it really overpriced if people are willing to pay the price?

820
00:44:28,117 --> 00:44:28,127
Yeah.

821
00:44:28,207 --> 00:44:28,317
yeah.

822
00:44:28,437 --> 00:44:29,597
I mean, you're correct, right?

823
00:44:29,597 --> 00:44:33,372
And I think, like, coming back to what I was saying about the This is all a factor

824
00:44:33,372 --> 00:44:36,522
of, as Bitcoin gets bigger, you'll see more and more of this, and it'll become

825
00:44:36,522 --> 00:44:39,702
more and more of a thing, you know, and, and, and you're right, you know, like,

826
00:44:39,702 --> 00:44:42,122
what is the line, like, if people are willing to pay for this, and they're

827
00:44:42,132 --> 00:44:45,802
happy, and they don't feel like they're getting scammed, I mean, is it a scam,

828
00:44:46,212 --> 00:44:50,712
and I, I just think, like, how does this, how is this related to Bitcoin, right,

829
00:44:50,712 --> 00:44:53,762
you know, and there's many other things out there in the world that use, like,

830
00:44:53,762 --> 00:44:58,102
um, like, for example, ethical food, or, you know, all this kind of stuff, where

831
00:44:58,102 --> 00:45:01,732
they associate it with something, We're really, if you really were wanting to

832
00:45:01,732 --> 00:45:04,522
support this cause, you'd be better to directly donate to this thing, right?

833
00:45:04,822 --> 00:45:07,712
But they try and create this association to brand themselves, right?

834
00:45:07,712 --> 00:45:10,942
And as you said, you know, it's not direct, but I mean, I think

835
00:45:10,942 --> 00:45:13,322
most people, if you explain this, they get what I'm leading to

836
00:45:13,322 --> 00:45:14,472
and they understand the problem,

837
00:45:14,642 --> 00:45:17,647
But it, it is like quantum, this and that, you know, . Yeah.

838
00:45:18,082 --> 00:45:18,322
Yeah.

839
00:45:18,322 --> 00:45:20,602
It's, it's, it, I mean, it's a difficult one to discuss, but I mean, this is

840
00:45:20,602 --> 00:45:23,962
obvious, right, is with anything as it grows, like all the other stuff we

841
00:45:23,962 --> 00:45:27,382
talked about, like the scams are obvious and as they get bigger, you know, this,

842
00:45:27,382 --> 00:45:31,312
the, the things are harder and higher to directly say it is, and you can feel

843
00:45:31,312 --> 00:45:34,902
something that's right off and wrong and not quite right, but it's a lot harder

844
00:45:34,902 --> 00:45:36,222
if you to articulate and nail it down.

845
00:45:36,222 --> 00:45:39,522
I mean, this is the way all things go, right, is the bigger and the larger,

846
00:45:39,522 --> 00:45:40,842
more associated complex it gets.

847
00:45:41,292 --> 00:45:44,382
The more involved the, the scams, if we're gonna call them scams, get

848
00:45:44,652 --> 00:45:45,477
that, that would be what I think.

849
00:45:45,762 --> 00:45:46,102
Mm

850
00:45:46,854 --> 00:45:51,594
No, I mean the tough part about you kind of finding that and actually

851
00:45:51,594 --> 00:45:57,364
this is a good example in this case because Rob brought a lot of people

852
00:45:57,404 --> 00:46:01,694
into Bitcoin with particularly his Sailor series and actually my first

853
00:46:01,694 --> 00:46:05,434
real touchpoint with like a real Bitcoiner was him on Lex Friedman.

854
00:46:05,654 --> 00:46:06,904
Literally, that was my first.

855
00:46:07,364 --> 00:46:10,164
Bitcoin maxi actually go down the rabbit hole thing and

856
00:46:10,164 --> 00:46:11,444
people coming into the space.

857
00:46:11,594 --> 00:46:15,784
I had no idea about the bit cloud stuff like zero idea about the bit cloud stuff.

858
00:46:16,014 --> 00:46:20,794
And so then I have no idea that he's got this reputation under the hood that isn't

859
00:46:20,834 --> 00:46:24,324
isn't there, you know, and so it's just it's hard for people coming into the space

860
00:46:24,324 --> 00:46:28,879
to, I guess, to understand who is the Who is the right people and, and people with

861
00:46:28,879 --> 00:46:34,999
influence and influencers is the correct word here are are re regarded highly

862
00:46:34,999 --> 00:46:39,469
and, and they're, what they put out into the, the world by people who are new to

863
00:46:39,469 --> 00:46:42,979
the space is, is it's important to get the right message out there, you know.

864
00:46:43,039 --> 00:46:49,639
And I, I, I think you have to, to, to, uh, to judge people from their, like.

865
00:46:50,104 --> 00:46:52,944
Are they a net benefit or a net detriment?

866
00:46:53,004 --> 00:46:56,114
Like, that's, that's the key, like, but it's tricky sometimes

867
00:46:56,154 --> 00:46:58,274
because people are a bit of both.

868
00:46:58,354 --> 00:47:01,584
Of course they are, like, and I think to some extent, sort

869
00:47:01,584 --> 00:47:03,014
of everyone is guilty of that.

870
00:47:03,064 --> 00:47:03,594
Like, uh.

871
00:47:03,939 --> 00:47:06,249
And I, and I agree and, and it's a great point, right?

872
00:47:06,249 --> 00:47:09,599
You know, the guy has like a large reach and there are many such people, right, in

873
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:13,619
the space where, in my personal opinion, they're just, it's just garbage, trash.

874
00:47:13,919 --> 00:47:17,669
You know, people that are Bitcoin but they can't actually talk in

875
00:47:17,669 --> 00:47:21,249
any sort of detail or articulation about what Bitcoin really is, right?

876
00:47:21,279 --> 00:47:24,754
But then being presented as experts and these are the The megaphones

877
00:47:24,754 --> 00:47:25,934
that people are hearing, right?

878
00:47:26,294 --> 00:47:30,364
Um, and so, you know, like, there is an element of, of, it comes back to the

879
00:47:30,364 --> 00:47:32,974
same stuff as we talked about before, like, getting more people in the door

880
00:47:33,164 --> 00:47:37,214
is obviously, I think, a benefit, but at what point do you dilute the message such

881
00:47:37,214 --> 00:47:42,294
where, you know, uh, let's take the Miami or Nashville conference as an example.

882
00:47:42,919 --> 00:47:46,729
How many hours of talks are going on there and how many of them are really

883
00:47:46,729 --> 00:47:50,129
adding value and how many of them more just like here is a face and where this

884
00:47:50,129 --> 00:47:53,249
face brings people in the door, but what they said was just hot air, right?

885
00:47:53,279 --> 00:47:54,699
You know, it was garbage.

886
00:47:54,859 --> 00:47:57,549
And would that, I mean, if you ask me, these people should be listening

887
00:47:57,549 --> 00:48:00,819
to Erik Voskil and reading crypto economics, which they're not going to do.

888
00:48:01,139 --> 00:48:04,969
But, but I feel like there is more a duty of stewardship from all of us.

889
00:48:05,689 --> 00:48:08,019
To try and steer in that right direction.

890
00:48:08,019 --> 00:48:11,129
Part of that is calling out things, which I think are clearly unaligned,

891
00:48:11,299 --> 00:48:15,619
Yeah, but there's a devil's argument to be made here too, because arguably,

892
00:48:16,369 --> 00:48:21,209
Bitcoin conferences in general have become more high signal over time.

893
00:48:21,529 --> 00:48:27,679
Like, in 2017, you had, like, there were no real Bitcoin conferences, there

894
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:29,170
were just these blockchain bullshit

895
00:48:29,559 --> 00:48:30,059
Mm hmm.

896
00:48:30,119 --> 00:48:35,684
So from a certain point of view, it is getting Like, the signal

897
00:48:35,684 --> 00:48:37,554
to noise ratio is getting higher.

898
00:48:37,579 --> 00:48:37,869
Mm hmm.

899
00:48:37,869 --> 00:48:42,709
Yeah, I mean, it's a hard, and this is, I mean, the fact that we're discussing

900
00:48:42,709 --> 00:48:44,809
this, I think, is like the beauty, right?

901
00:48:44,809 --> 00:48:49,289
It's like, I have heard very, very few people having these conversations

902
00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:54,849
Maybe like kind of leading around this point, but not directly discussing this

903
00:48:54,849 --> 00:48:58,349
as like a analytically, objectively as a social phenomenon, right?

904
00:48:58,349 --> 00:48:58,639
You know,

905
00:48:58,874 --> 00:48:59,464
No, it's great.

906
00:48:59,549 --> 00:49:02,839
and um, and like, you know, maybe you are, you're, you're totally

907
00:49:02,839 --> 00:49:03,989
right and I'm totally wrong, right?

908
00:49:03,989 --> 00:49:06,729
Like these people are, I should just stop being such a, you

909
00:49:06,729 --> 00:49:08,099
know, such a negative Nancy.

910
00:49:08,299 --> 00:49:09,899
And these people are good for things, right?

911
00:49:10,129 --> 00:49:14,159
But, but we need to have this discussion and decide, and well,

912
00:49:14,189 --> 00:49:17,159
better articulate what this happy medium between the two is, right?

913
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:17,479
You know?

914
00:49:17,849 --> 00:49:20,019
And that, that's, that's the thing which I think is missing.

915
00:49:20,019 --> 00:49:22,519
And just simply by having this conversation, discussing this

916
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:24,849
stuff, getting it out and getting more nuanced, I think it's part

917
00:49:24,849 --> 00:49:25,989
of getting the job done, right?

918
00:49:26,099 --> 00:49:31,119
When, you know, if maybe next time Robert Breloves does his Alpha of, Art of Alpha

919
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:35,494
2, I'm going to be like, Well, actually, when I look at it, it's a benefit because

920
00:49:35,494 --> 00:49:36,944
we had this conversation, right, you know?

921
00:49:37,094 --> 00:49:41,334
Yeah, the sequel is obviously going to be named Art of the Beta.

922
00:49:43,774 --> 00:49:48,384
Well, anyway, I think it's a great discussion, and it's like, people

923
00:49:48,384 --> 00:49:49,704
should talk more about this.

924
00:49:50,624 --> 00:49:53,904
Because, yeah, there is a trade off, and I don't think we disagree, I

925
00:49:53,934 --> 00:49:55,374
think we're on the same page here.

926
00:49:55,964 --> 00:50:01,244
I'm just mostly taking the devil's advocate position for, to get the debate

927
00:50:01,244 --> 00:50:05,034
going because I think it's, it's, uh, it's very much a subject that should

928
00:50:05,044 --> 00:50:08,484
be vocalized more and aired more.

929
00:50:08,854 --> 00:50:09,604
Absolutely.

930
00:50:09,634 --> 00:50:11,884
Because diluting the message is bad.

931
00:50:11,894 --> 00:50:12,744
And that, that is.

932
00:50:14,029 --> 00:50:19,089
Like, well, we talk about ethics and tactics and whatnot with the pod all

933
00:50:19,089 --> 00:50:22,879
the time, and like, well, what we agree on and align on so much, it's

934
00:50:22,879 --> 00:50:28,049
like, we want, there is nothing more important than integrity, like, I,

935
00:50:28,049 --> 00:50:31,539
this, I love the Scarface quote, you know, all I have in this world is my

936
00:50:31,549 --> 00:50:35,769
word and my balls, and they don't break for no one, and I try to live by that,

937
00:50:36,039 --> 00:50:38,129
and like, I think, have I ever ever.

938
00:50:38,259 --> 00:50:41,819
Had I ever taken the bag of shit coins during these last five years,

939
00:50:41,819 --> 00:50:43,769
I would be nothing at this point.

940
00:50:43,769 --> 00:50:46,029
I've seen it so many times over and over again.

941
00:50:46,299 --> 00:50:49,989
People turning from intellectuals to ultimate fighters, for

942
00:50:49,989 --> 00:50:51,509
instance, with the same moustache.

943
00:50:51,889 --> 00:50:52,089
Yeah.

944
00:50:52,089 --> 00:50:54,119
A

945
00:50:54,224 --> 00:50:56,224
And it's, to me, it's crazy.

946
00:50:56,224 --> 00:50:57,244
I've thought the exact same thing.

947
00:50:57,244 --> 00:51:01,689
It's crazy where, on the one hand, these people talk about Bitcoin is sound money

948
00:51:01,689 --> 00:51:05,829
for generations and this is a thousand year mission and they don't see them

949
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:10,469
doing this stuff of like, yeah, to me, um, there's been many times where I thought,

950
00:51:10,579 --> 00:51:13,749
uh, you know, like when I started speaking at conferences and things like this, if

951
00:51:13,749 --> 00:51:17,869
I really started going deeper on this thing, maybe I could make more of a thing

952
00:51:17,869 --> 00:51:22,359
of it or whatever, but I think I like, I want to slowly build my, my brand in

953
00:51:22,359 --> 00:51:26,649
that sense over like 10 years, like, like do things and do only do things right.

954
00:51:26,829 --> 00:51:28,039
Exactly, exactly dude.

955
00:51:28,039 --> 00:51:29,999
That's like all these memes we throw around.

956
00:51:30,254 --> 00:51:33,654
But I mean maybe that speaks to, again, this whole point I keep returning to

957
00:51:33,654 --> 00:51:38,234
is like, they're all empty platitudes with people actually not deeply thinking

958
00:51:38,244 --> 00:51:41,774
about, you know, calling, having something that can clearly articulate and point

959
00:51:41,774 --> 00:51:44,814
out, this is in direct contradiction to this, but because the thinking is

960
00:51:44,814 --> 00:51:48,764
so sloppy, you know, people don't even realize that they're, they're doing that.

961
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,219
Like people, people want the fast, fast buck.

962
00:51:52,219 --> 00:51:55,774
And it's, it's, it's a part, it's a, it's like a I think that's a real

963
00:51:55,774 --> 00:52:01,134
side effect or like, uh, a result of the fiat mindset and the fiat rot in

964
00:52:01,134 --> 00:52:03,514
people's brains over so many years.

965
00:52:03,809 --> 00:52:06,569
my mind so much in terms of like, I mean, I guess everyone's got to eat,

966
00:52:06,569 --> 00:52:10,219
right, you know, but, but, surely if you've got Bitcoin, like, you're good,

967
00:52:10,219 --> 00:52:12,839
right, if you really believe in Bitcoin, right, you know, maybe not now, but

968
00:52:12,939 --> 00:52:15,909
if you really believe in Bitcoin, then we're all going to be super fucking

969
00:52:15,909 --> 00:52:19,769
rich, right, in 10 years or whatever, and so in that 10 years, you know, if

970
00:52:19,769 --> 00:52:22,159
you got a little bit more money, it's not going to matter anywhere near as

971
00:52:22,159 --> 00:52:25,849
much as like, if people knew, if you had that old boys network of the people that

972
00:52:25,849 --> 00:52:28,829
are here right now in Bitcoin, and they knew that you were always a, you know,

973
00:52:29,989 --> 00:52:33,309
Trustable, a person with high integrity for 10 years over all these things.

974
00:52:33,609 --> 00:52:34,409
Imagine the value.

975
00:52:34,439 --> 00:52:35,779
That is an incredible value,

976
00:52:35,874 --> 00:52:36,314
No, no, no.

977
00:52:36,524 --> 00:52:40,304
It's like, uh, honesty and integrity are really, that's

978
00:52:40,314 --> 00:52:41,764
really the currency of the future.

979
00:52:41,934 --> 00:52:44,904
And that's, I think that aligns with Bitcoin so well because,

980
00:52:45,319 --> 00:52:47,239
It is this base layer of truth.

981
00:52:47,274 --> 00:52:50,829
It, it is actually integrity quantified, if you will.

982
00:52:51,369 --> 00:52:55,509
So, so it aligns so well and I, I think that, yeah, reputation is

983
00:52:55,509 --> 00:52:59,169
everything and, and it's all tied to authenticity and integrity.

984
00:52:59,924 --> 00:53:02,924
Well, and, and I mean, first of all, the one thing is that, that's

985
00:53:02,924 --> 00:53:04,874
the noster thing there as well.

986
00:53:04,874 --> 00:53:06,224
The Web of trust idea.

987
00:53:06,374 --> 00:53:08,594
I mean, IM implementation stuff.

988
00:53:08,654 --> 00:53:10,394
Is, is that's, that's valid.

989
00:53:10,394 --> 00:53:13,904
Like if we've, we've had our own concerns about the architecture

990
00:53:13,904 --> 00:53:17,534
and, uh, haven't really talked to any hardcore skeptics that, that

991
00:53:17,534 --> 00:53:19,094
actually have thought about this hard.

992
00:53:19,094 --> 00:53:24,434
But still the, the web of trust thing is, is amazing in terms of, in terms of

993
00:53:24,464 --> 00:53:28,004
this portable web of trust that you can take from application to application.

994
00:53:28,489 --> 00:53:29,519
And hold on to that.

995
00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:32,489
And so I mean, I think that's just going to amplify that effect.

996
00:53:32,499 --> 00:53:35,879
But my other comment from from earlier was, the talk I did

997
00:53:36,049 --> 00:53:39,149
at Noob Day was basically just leaning into Bitcoin, how to do it.

998
00:53:39,149 --> 00:53:41,569
Because for me, I've been in the space two years.

999
00:53:41,979 --> 00:53:45,679
And so much has just happened from saying yes to stuff and,

1000
00:53:46,089 --> 00:53:49,259
and putting in and putting in the work and I'm not tooting my horn.

1001
00:53:49,749 --> 00:53:52,299
Too hard when I'm, when I'm saying that, but the, the point about it

1002
00:53:52,299 --> 00:53:55,589
is just like, do the work, like you say, and I mean, things can

1003
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:57,979
happen a lot faster than, than you

1004
00:53:58,139 --> 00:53:59,459
and there are no shortcuts.

1005
00:53:59,999 --> 00:54:03,009
just by having the integrity and, and, and doing the work with

1006
00:54:03,254 --> 00:54:03,564
Yeah.

1007
00:54:03,564 --> 00:54:07,534
And you can't just cling on to this or that influencers ideas.

1008
00:54:07,534 --> 00:54:08,224
That doesn't work.

1009
00:54:08,234 --> 00:54:10,324
You need to, you need to actually study the thing.

1010
00:54:10,324 --> 00:54:10,524
And

1011
00:54:10,729 --> 00:54:11,549
Slay your heroes.

1012
00:54:12,799 --> 00:54:15,749
Yeah, I mean I, again, something I talked about in the talk that I

1013
00:54:15,809 --> 00:54:21,269
did today is like the whole idea of what Bitcoin is, is like a different

1014
00:54:21,839 --> 00:54:23,729
philosophy around technology, right?

1015
00:54:23,729 --> 00:54:27,244
You know, we have The systems view of technology and the tools view of

1016
00:54:27,244 --> 00:54:30,774
technology is technology a system whereby you follow like a more or less

1017
00:54:30,774 --> 00:54:35,714
a recipe or a set of instructions and the software does everything for you and

1018
00:54:35,714 --> 00:54:37,844
it's like pressing a button and getting something out the other end, right?

1019
00:54:38,384 --> 00:54:41,274
And that has its place, but I mean, I think Bitcoin is a different type

1020
00:54:41,274 --> 00:54:46,404
of technology in that it requires, uh, like you to learn to, to wield

1021
00:54:46,404 --> 00:54:50,184
it, to understand that the value is in the, the, the time and energy that

1022
00:54:50,204 --> 00:54:51,654
you have to invest to learn about it.

1023
00:54:52,254 --> 00:54:55,284
Because if you don't learn it, then someone else is making these decisions for

1024
00:54:55,284 --> 00:54:59,344
you, and the whole point of Bitcoin is, is to educate yourself and master it, right?

1025
00:54:59,704 --> 00:55:04,034
An analogy might be, um, you know, hundreds of years ago, slightly

1026
00:55:04,034 --> 00:55:07,694
romanticized, um, example, but nonetheless, I think that the metaphor

1027
00:55:07,694 --> 00:55:11,284
is, is there, that hundreds of years ago, like, to be able to kill someone,

1028
00:55:11,284 --> 00:55:14,854
like to be a knight or whatever, you had to spend a long amount of time

1029
00:55:14,854 --> 00:55:16,504
learning how to master a sword, right?

1030
00:55:16,504 --> 00:55:19,534
And what would work for you is one will exactly work for me.

1031
00:55:19,534 --> 00:55:20,604
It's about your body.

1032
00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:21,819
Staff and,

1033
00:55:21,884 --> 00:55:24,184
you, you would probably have to practice less, right?

1034
00:55:24,859 --> 00:55:27,479
but I mean, it's, it's all about your, your, um, you know,

1035
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:28,839
understanding yourself, right?

1036
00:55:28,839 --> 00:55:30,389
And you're never going to be a better swordsman.

1037
00:55:30,429 --> 00:55:32,189
I'm never going to be a better swordsman than you if I don't

1038
00:55:32,229 --> 00:55:33,529
really understand myself.

1039
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:35,829
And then to project myself through the sword, right?

1040
00:55:36,179 --> 00:55:39,879
Now today, you know, any moron in an hour can learn how to

1041
00:55:39,949 --> 00:55:41,479
have a rifle and shoot people.

1042
00:55:41,749 --> 00:55:45,149
And I think, um, again, it's somewhat romanticized, but I still think

1043
00:55:45,149 --> 00:55:46,299
there's a good amount of truth to this.

1044
00:55:46,299 --> 00:55:50,399
And that, like, I think we are in a much worse position by having the

1045
00:55:50,399 --> 00:55:55,189
power to kill given to anyone who knows how to work a very simple machine.

1046
00:55:55,689 --> 00:55:57,859
Versus that being reserved to people that go through the work

1047
00:55:57,859 --> 00:56:00,699
and therefore learn to master themselves and understand themselves.

1048
00:56:00,709 --> 00:56:03,509
There's a degree of, you're never going to be able to kill people unless

1049
00:56:03,509 --> 00:56:06,569
you're able to pass these personal tests and verse the effort, right?

1050
00:56:06,839 --> 00:56:10,299
And I think the same thing should apply to technologies like bitcoin,

1051
00:56:10,299 --> 00:56:11,089
like with our money, right?

1052
00:56:11,369 --> 00:56:13,729
Because when you don't do that, you're just a blindness follower

1053
00:56:13,729 --> 00:56:14,739
of someone else's instructions.

1054
00:56:14,739 --> 00:56:17,889
But when you actually have to sit down and learn, there's value to

1055
00:56:18,019 --> 00:56:19,849
making people go through that process.

1056
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:24,109
And so I think, like, the whole idea of bitcoin is that it should be a little.

1057
00:56:24,464 --> 00:56:28,134
Complicated and a little hard and you know you shouldn't try and dumb it

1058
00:56:28,134 --> 00:56:30,964
down too much because there's a certain point where it kind of kills what the

1059
00:56:30,974 --> 00:56:33,974
whole point of Bitcoin is which is to go through that kind of process

1060
00:56:33,974 --> 00:56:37,554
and we will have a better world if everyone understands how to use Bitcoin.

1061
00:56:37,574 --> 00:56:40,754
But again, if imagine it's ten people in the world are the only people

1062
00:56:40,754 --> 00:56:44,104
that really understand Bitcoin and everyone else is just using you

1063
00:56:44,494 --> 00:56:45,904
know, Binance or something like that.

1064
00:56:45,904 --> 00:56:47,074
Are we any better than we are now?

1065
00:56:47,074 --> 00:56:47,994
I don't think we are, you know.

1066
00:56:47,994 --> 00:56:51,714
So the whole point is making sure that everyone in the world or a much greater

1067
00:56:51,714 --> 00:56:54,864
amount of people in the world Are the people who are able to be the banks and,

1068
00:56:54,874 --> 00:56:56,954
and the PayPals and the things like that.

1069
00:56:57,044 --> 00:56:59,904
And, and if you don't like it, you can easily make your

1070
00:56:59,904 --> 00:57:01,314
own PayPal like this, right?

1071
00:57:01,314 --> 00:57:02,614
And I think that's the value of it.

1072
00:57:03,144 --> 00:57:06,854
And part of that is forcing people to be responsible and to learn themselves.

1073
00:57:06,864 --> 00:57:08,844
And if they don't go through that, we don't change anything.

1074
00:57:08,864 --> 00:57:11,334
So it's a counterpoint.

1075
00:57:12,564 --> 00:57:15,474
Are you familiar with the word Kdi Ling

1076
00:57:17,669 --> 00:57:21,564
This, this is a word that our friend Ralphie told us in Prague, and the,

1077
00:57:21,564 --> 00:57:26,874
the definition is to purposefully travel without any particular

1078
00:57:26,874 --> 00:57:29,394
destination, possibly meandering.

1079
00:57:29,844 --> 00:57:35,424
And, and, and some, someone, someone asked people on Twitter to, to, uh,

1080
00:57:35,904 --> 00:57:38,444
and describe Bitcoin with one word.

1081
00:57:38,854 --> 00:57:41,444
And I think that's a perfect word, it's coddywompling.

1082
00:57:43,334 --> 00:57:45,634
It's purposeful, but you don't know where it leads.

1083
00:57:45,929 --> 00:57:46,499
yeah, yeah, yeah.

1084
00:57:47,099 --> 00:57:50,069
You know, it's like these, all these now, you know, the journey is a

1085
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:51,239
destination, all this kinda stuff.

1086
00:57:51,239 --> 00:57:52,949
But I mean, I think there is value, there's, there's truth

1087
00:57:52,949 --> 00:57:53,909
to that with Bitcoin, right.

1088
00:57:53,909 --> 00:57:54,269
You know?

1089
00:57:54,719 --> 00:57:55,019
Yeah.

1090
00:57:55,831 --> 00:58:00,751
Rigel, this has been a great, uh, discussion, lively, uh, I, I think,

1091
00:58:00,751 --> 00:58:05,131
I think, uh, do you have anything else big on your mind that you're

1092
00:58:05,251 --> 00:58:07,471
excited to talk about or, or share?

1093
00:58:07,531 --> 00:58:08,101
No, no.

1094
00:58:08,101 --> 00:58:10,201
I mean, um, no, that's pretty much it.

1095
00:58:10,201 --> 00:58:13,231
Like, um, you know, this is, this has been a really good talk and

1096
00:58:13,231 --> 00:58:16,561
I, and I, and I feel like I don't listen to too many Bitcoin podcasts

1097
00:58:16,561 --> 00:58:17,581
these days, but I feel like.

1098
00:58:18,126 --> 00:58:21,676
I don't think these sort of conversations are being had about these sort of

1099
00:58:21,676 --> 00:58:25,406
things and, and uh, just thank you for giving the opportunity to hopefully,

1100
00:58:25,436 --> 00:58:28,946
hopefully whoever's watching this has shared similar, felt similar value

1101
00:58:28,946 --> 00:58:31,236
from it, but thank you for giving the opportunity to talk about these

1102
00:58:31,236 --> 00:58:33,666
things with you guys because they've been great counterpoints as well.

1103
00:58:34,446 --> 00:58:38,856
Pleasure is, uh, on our side, like, uh, yeah, right back at you.

1104
00:58:39,146 --> 00:58:41,896
So, so anyway, will you want to send our listeners, like,

1105
00:58:41,981 --> 00:58:46,841
Um, no, just I'm on Twitter, um, and Telegram, if you want to

1106
00:58:46,841 --> 00:58:49,364
get me directly, on Coinsure and

1107
00:58:49,726 --> 00:58:50,436
Telegram.

1108
00:58:50,631 --> 00:58:55,341
yeah, yeah, yeah, hot topic today, isn't it, yeah, yeah,

1109
00:58:55,466 --> 00:58:55,796
have gone

1110
00:58:56,031 --> 00:59:00,071
um, I'm trying to remember what my, uh, I just added the, um.

1111
00:59:00,846 --> 00:59:02,436
thing in, uh, Signal.

1112
00:59:02,466 --> 00:59:04,986
But anyway, you can get my Signal if you message me there.

1113
00:59:04,996 --> 00:59:10,206
Um, and, um, and my Nostr, I believe, is on there as well.

1114
00:59:10,216 --> 00:59:12,576
And if not, I'm sure you can find me through things on Nostr there.

1115
00:59:12,576 --> 00:59:15,436
I'll tell you my input, but that's a little messy to, to say on a

1116
00:59:15,441 --> 00:59:18,931
We make, we make that joke sometimes, oh, you're not going to tell us your mPub?

1117
00:59:19,101 --> 00:59:20,071
But, yeah, anyway.

1118
00:59:20,148 --> 00:59:21,091
that

1119
00:59:21,326 --> 00:59:25,566
you're going to get a book, I mean, uh, order the book now, uh, within two weeks

1120
00:59:25,566 --> 00:59:27,926
and get a free set of steak knives, maybe.

1121
00:59:28,456 --> 00:59:29,686
And, uh, yeah.

1122
00:59:29,806 --> 00:59:33,206
Thank you, Rigel, for coming on to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1123
00:59:33,241 --> 00:59:34,261
Thank you so much for having me.

1124
00:59:34,271 --> 00:59:34,811
Appreciate it.

1125
00:59:34,811 --> 00:59:35,171
Thank you.

1126
00:59:35,271 --> 00:59:35,901
Thank you.

1127
00:59:35,951 --> 00:59:36,071
you.

1128
00:59:36,271 --> 00:59:36,691
Thank you.

1129
00:59:36,781 --> 00:59:38,381
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1130
00:59:38,391 --> 00:59:39,261
Thank you for listening.