1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,200
Chris, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you back.

2
00:00:04,020 --> 00:00:05,420
Hi, Knut. Great to be back.

3
00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:11,020
Yes, you were here like, what is it now? Like five months ago or something?

4
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,820
Something like that or four maybe? I don't remember exactly.

5
00:00:15,060 --> 00:00:16,260
It's been a few months.

6
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,260
I feel like it was shorter than that, but you know, time flies.

7
00:00:21,260 --> 00:00:30,380
Yeah, I think you were here just a week before Core V30 was released or something like that, or two weeks before or something like that.

8
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,860
The show may have come out just days before.

9
00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:39,240
Okay, yeah. So December, November, October. Yeah, so that was three months?

10
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:58,220
Three months. So yeah, we usually don't have guests back this soon after they've done a thing, but you wanted to come on to do a sort of rebuttal thing to Merch's episode because we're getting bogged down in this core versus knots. Fantastic.

11
00:00:58,220 --> 00:01:07,840
Yeah, I was hoping to actually have a conversation directly with Merch, which he still refuses to do for reasons I don't really understand.

12
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,400
We're using your podcast as kind of the go between.

13
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,660
Well, I'm humbled that you're both willing to do that.

14
00:01:14,860 --> 00:01:18,800
And hopefully I can be a good mediator and maybe I can offer a third view.

15
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:20,220
I don't know.

16
00:01:20,620 --> 00:01:24,860
But what has happened since you were on is, yeah, we had Merch on.

17
00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:30,700
We also had, I just recently interviewed CONSA, a long two and a half hour episode.

18
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,760
I haven't released that yet, but that's very good.

19
00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:42,740
It's obviously from the not side, but also very much on the Austrian economics side and the anarcho-capitalist side,

20
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,620
which I've, during our time apart, have figured out that you're not really an anarcho-capitalist.

21
00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:51,300
So we might get into that later on in the episode.

22
00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:52,940
I used to be.

23
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:54,400
You used to be.

24
00:01:54,400 --> 00:02:03,420
Yes, and I think the thing I want to talk to you about there is maybe Anarcha Pulco and how those LARPers aren't really libertarians.

25
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,800
That's another whole can of worms.

26
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:10,560
Yeah, that's another whole can of worms.

27
00:02:10,700 --> 00:02:17,720
So I'm just saying that if this can of worms doesn't contain enough worms, we have other cans of worms to open.

28
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:24,420
But let's go. You made a fantastic document here about certain timestamps from Merch's episode.

29
00:02:24,740 --> 00:02:30,700
So people can go and have a look at that if they want to, so they can hear both sides of this argument.

30
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,640
And yeah, I'm going to try to stay as neutral as I can, but then also offer my opinion.

31
00:02:36,780 --> 00:02:38,700
So I guess I'm not going to be neutral at all.

32
00:02:39,380 --> 00:02:44,320
Okay. Yeah. And maybe let's not publish the doc yet.

33
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,560
I'm going to clean it up if you want to actually publish it.

34
00:02:47,720 --> 00:03:12,960
I will not publish the doc. I don't intend to, and I don't think it's a good idea. But I do think I'm going to read off of it and we can get into, and maybe you will too, and we'll get into that. So the first point is from one minute and 35 seconds into the conversation with Merch. And that says that you agreed with Merch's definition of Bitcoin more than mine. Yes.

35
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:22,760
Yeah. So basically you said, what is Bitcoin? And Murch said something like it is a it's a network that we can that we can use for Internet money.

36
00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:27,140
And then he said it's the native Internet of the money. Sorry, it's the it's the Internet's native money.

37
00:03:27,140 --> 00:03:36,980
And then you said something like it is a it's a set of rules and a network that makes it makes it more costly to break the rules and to follow the rules or something like that.

38
00:03:36,980 --> 00:03:44,300
I liked Murch's definition a little bit better because he mentioned that Bitcoin is money and your definition did not mention that.

39
00:03:44,300 --> 00:04:02,520
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, my go-to answer is Bitcoin is an agreement on a fixed set of rules. And my slightly longer answer is that the reason we agree on this specific set of rules is that these are the only rules that are more expensive to break than to just follow.

40
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:10,460
or that are most more expensive to break than to just follow, if that makes any sense,

41
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:16,040
which in turn, in my view, that is the core thing that makes it money

42
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,180
or makes it the best form of money humanity has ever seen.

43
00:04:20,020 --> 00:04:22,740
Right, but so it's kind of muddled.

44
00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,920
Your definition is almost like the core devs definition

45
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,600
in that it doesn't actually say in the definition that Bitcoin is money.

46
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:42,620
And I think that that is partly what's causing all the problems with CoreDev is that they have this notion that, oh, well, Bitcoin, the way that it works, it just naturally becomes the best money because of how it works.

47
00:04:43,340 --> 00:04:57,480
And I don't like I think where the not side is coming from on this is that, you know, maybe it'll get there someday, but we have to make sure that we explicitly define Bitcoin as money so that it can evolve into the best possible money.

48
00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,620
It is probably the best money in existence right now, but that doesn't mean that it will always be money.

49
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,440
So I think it's important to specify that.

50
00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:11,500
Okay, I'm going to give an answer to that too.

51
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:17,940
And I think the difference here is that I come from the Austrian economics literature in terms of what money is.

52
00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:35,920
And money, according to Mises and Rothbard and Hoppe too, is something akin to the thing that turns out to be that society's most prominent medium of exchange, implicitly over time and space.

53
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:41,520
And I would say that Bitcoin is the best medium of exchange over time and space humanity has ever seen.

54
00:05:41,620 --> 00:05:47,060
So there's a good likelihood that it becomes money or becomes the best money also.

55
00:05:47,060 --> 00:05:54,040
It is already money, but it's not already the dominant type of money on planet Earth.

56
00:05:54,700 --> 00:05:58,240
And that's, I think, is where I draw the distinction.

57
00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:04,800
Hopper defined money as the best insurance against the future available on the market.

58
00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:09,700
And right now, that is probably Bitcoin, but it's still sort of up to the debate.

59
00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:17,360
I would say that it's intended to be money and intended to be a perfect medium of change of a space and time or almost perfect.

60
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,720
So I think we do agree.

61
00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:21,020
It's just a semantics thing.

62
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:32,540
Well, so I think it's important to point out that Hoppe and Mises and these people who are writing a long time ago were writing about things like gold that are not programmable, right?

63
00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:34,380
That don't evolve over time.

64
00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:35,420
Gold is just gold.

65
00:06:35,420 --> 00:06:43,340
It just it stays exactly how it is, regardless of what, you know, what the culture of gold bugs thinks.

66
00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:44,760
But Bitcoin is not like that.

67
00:06:44,860 --> 00:06:48,500
Bitcoin evolves based on what Bitcoiners think Bitcoin should become.

68
00:06:49,100 --> 00:07:03,020
And so Bitcoin is more of a living system, more of a sort of a macro organism than gold is, because the Bitcoin protocol will can and will evolve, you know, in the direction that Bitcoiners as a whole think that it should evolve in.

69
00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:18,600
And so if we don't consider, you know, Bitcoin being money as an important as an important goal or as something that needs to be actively fought for, then it's possible and maybe even likely that Bitcoin will start to become worse money over time.

70
00:07:19,180 --> 00:07:22,940
And so that's that's I think that sort of encapsulates the knots position.

71
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,900
Yeah. And I by the way, I totally agree with that.

72
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,840
I think Bitcoin should not aim to be anything but money.

73
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:38,920
yes ever like it's super important crucially and i i completely agree with you that because

74
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,180
bitcoin is bitcoin is is has very fundamentally good you know good features that make it

75
00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:49,100
fundamentally good money um but as you said it's not the most desirable medium of exchange right

76
00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:54,940
now um mostly because of network effects um but also there are user experience problems with with

77
00:07:54,940 --> 00:07:59,360
using bitcoin as a medium of exchange which we can talk about um and that's sort of money yeah

78
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:12,300
And aggressive monetary monopolists hindering its evolution by enforcing people into behaviors that hinders Bitcoin adoption.

79
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,880
They need to pay their taxes in dollars and so on and so forth.

80
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:16,560
Yep.

81
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,860
And they have to do a settlement of oil purchases.

82
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:25,380
You know, if you're a state actor is trying to buy and sell oil, you kind of have to use the dollar for that because the U.S.

83
00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:32,200
points a gun at your head all right next point i think we need to to move on here if we're going to

84
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:38,440
get anywhere here so 350 in one group thinks that scaling is not part of what's what makes

85
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:47,560
bitcoin better money yes this is a quote from uh from merch uh i guess yeah this is where merch

86
00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:53,080
was trying to paint the not side as people who don't like scaling um and that's um just it's

87
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,840
just dishonest. The knot side does not dislike scaling. You know, we think that Bitcoin needs

88
00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,500
to scale as you and I were both saying just now. I think that it's important that Bitcoin become

89
00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:07,300
a popular medium of exchange because that's how it becomes the best money. And so it is impossible

90
00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:13,780
for Bitcoin to scale to a global user base in the current technological paradigm. Bitcoin needs to

91
00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:19,520
be upgraded in one way or another, or it just simply will not scale to a global user base.

92
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:37,120
And so the not side, as I see it, sees that as important, but like we need to be careful about scaling and do it properly instead of just kind of like, let's just, you know, open all the floodgates and let all the shitcoin VC money flood in and build whatever it wants.

93
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,980
because if you do that, then you risk corrupting the culture.

94
00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:44,320
And if you corrupt the culture, then Bitcoin may lose its way

95
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,060
and stop trying to be the best money.

96
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,800
And it will start trying to be, you know, whatever fiat VCs want it to be.

97
00:09:51,060 --> 00:09:51,920
Yeah, I absolutely agree.

98
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,720
And here it's important to, I think, to point out the two problems that money solves.

99
00:09:57,060 --> 00:10:01,360
And that is removing the need for a mutual coincidence of needs,

100
00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,300
like is the case with barter trading.

101
00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,660
And the other is economic calculation without money.

102
00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:12,280
people cannot assess the future in the way they can if they have money.

103
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,880
So they can calculate what they need to buy and how much income they need,

104
00:10:15,940 --> 00:10:17,940
how much profit they need, so on and so forth.

105
00:10:18,420 --> 00:10:24,680
And I'd say that any upgrade to Bitcoin that does not help one of those two

106
00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,500
is not really an upgrade to Bitcoin, but a shitcoin takeover attempt.

107
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,820
Like Bitcoin should not upgrade if the upgrade does not make it better money.

108
00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:39,300
And I think the Nott side might have a stricter definition of what that actually means.

109
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:46,920
Yeah, I think that those two points are related to your two definitions of your two types of medium of exchange, right?

110
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,160
Your medium of exchange.

111
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:50,440
Time and space, yeah.

112
00:10:50,540 --> 00:10:53,980
With space, you know, between people and then with yourself in the future, right?

113
00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:56,000
It's kind of like both of those different functions.

114
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,740
Yes, and you can't have one without the other in a way.

115
00:11:00,740 --> 00:11:02,820
Like money needs to be both.

116
00:11:03,460 --> 00:11:07,720
There's no point in a medium of exchange over time if you cannot send it to other people.

117
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:21,940
There's no point in a medium of exchange over space sending it to other people if it can't keep its value over time, because then you can't make the economic calculation, which is one of the problems, the very core problems that money is supposed to solve.

118
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:22,560
Yep.

119
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,380
And I've said this before.

120
00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:29,640
I think I said this on your last podcast, but Bitcoin is innovative and exciting because it solves both problems at the same time.

121
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,460
So it is both a store of value and a medium of exchange.

122
00:11:32,780 --> 00:11:33,940
And this is what makes it exciting.

123
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,980
It's currently a better store of value than the dollar, but it is not a better medium of exchange than the dollar.

124
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,020
And I think this is a problem.

125
00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:51,000
Yes. And come to think of it, these two problems that money solve are actually, the solution is actually medium of exchange over space and medium of exchange over time.

126
00:11:51,140 --> 00:11:56,340
The solution to the coincidence of needs is the medium of exchange over space aspect.

127
00:11:56,340 --> 00:12:01,200
the solution to the economic calculation is medium exchange over time.

128
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,100
So it makes perfect sense.

129
00:12:04,580 --> 00:12:05,340
So I think...

130
00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:06,700
Yeah, I like how you formulate that.

131
00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:07,380
That's brilliant.

132
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:08,860
Thank you.

133
00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:15,640
And I think this is, I think on the core side, that view may be more muddled.

134
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,700
I suspect that we have, this is also taking sides,

135
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,880
and I don't really like that when I'm doing an interview,

136
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:29,540
But I suspect that there are more people who view money in that Austrian way on the Nott side.

137
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,260
I suspect so.

138
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,480
But, I mean, I'm willing to give people benefit of the doubt.

139
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,940
Let's just go on and see how we can comment on this point.

140
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:51,400
Yeah, just to kind of summarize what I think for this conversation, what the difference, the important difference between Quor and Nott is that I think there's a lot of libertarians and even anarchists on both sides.

141
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,260
and even us Austrian supporters on both sides.

142
00:12:55,740 --> 00:12:57,540
But I think that Core takes the view

143
00:12:57,540 --> 00:12:59,600
that Bitcoin is already ideal money

144
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,720
and we just need to kind of tinker with it

145
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,820
and then, you know, everything will be fine.

146
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,660
Whereas Knott's takes a more conservative approach

147
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:12,800
and they think, you know, we should improve it, right?

148
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,360
But in the correct direction

149
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,280
and make sure that if we're making changes to Bitcoin,

150
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:18,740
we're making the correct changes to Bitcoin.

151
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:20,240
Absolutely.

152
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:28,000
I think this is very close to the difference between what I call a LARP-bertarian and a real libertarian.

153
00:13:28,380 --> 00:13:36,060
If you think the free market, in a truly free market, you can do whatever the fuck you want and you can scam people.

154
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,180
That is not the Austrian definition of a free market.

155
00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:43,640
A breach of contract is a breach of contract.

156
00:13:43,960 --> 00:14:00,347
Scamming and spamming and implicitly spamming is not okay on a free market It is a crime If you advertising a product and you selling something else than you advertising you committing a contract crime of some kind a fraud at best

157
00:14:00,447 --> 00:14:04,487
I think. You're infringing someone's property rights at the very end. Exactly. Exactly. So

158
00:14:04,487 --> 00:14:11,247
that's what all crime is an infringement of property rights, according to Rothbardian

159
00:14:11,247 --> 00:14:18,867
ethics. So I think this is at the core, pun intended, of what we're missing here,

160
00:14:18,927 --> 00:14:24,127
because I think many people on the many sides of many issues think that they have a libertarian

161
00:14:24,127 --> 00:14:28,187
view when they don't really understand what a free market is. It does not give you permission

162
00:14:28,187 --> 00:14:31,827
to do whatever the fuck you want. That's not the point. All right.

163
00:14:31,827 --> 00:14:35,907
I like that formulation. And I just want to add to that. I think a lot of crypto people are,

164
00:14:36,047 --> 00:14:40,467
as you call them, larbertarians, where they want freedom, but they don't want any responsibility.

165
00:14:41,247 --> 00:14:43,167
So that's how I would summarize that.

166
00:14:43,567 --> 00:14:44,487
And I think fantastic.

167
00:14:45,187 --> 00:14:46,227
But I think it's infecting.

168
00:14:46,367 --> 00:14:50,327
There's always been sort of a contingent of the Bitcoin community that's been LARPitarians.

169
00:14:50,527 --> 00:14:53,747
And I think that that is now the majority of Bitcoin core.

170
00:14:53,847 --> 00:14:54,347
I'm sorry to say.

171
00:14:55,047 --> 00:15:02,747
Well, yeah, I might not have that a dark view about them, but I'd say like and I usually don't like to name names.

172
00:15:02,747 --> 00:15:17,747
But when people are obvious scammers, such as Eric Voorhees, for instance, I think that he's in the LARPitarian camp because he created an exchange that legitimized all the shit coins and compared them as equals to Bitcoin.

173
00:15:17,867 --> 00:15:26,587
And you could exchange back and forth when the whole idea is him taking your sets in the fees between the like it.

174
00:15:26,587 --> 00:15:27,587
To me, that's obvious.

175
00:15:27,587 --> 00:15:35,147
If you're a shitcoin exchange, you make money off of people believing that there's any value in these things.

176
00:15:35,767 --> 00:15:41,807
And therefore you can charge fees when people want to trade their precious sats for other shit.

177
00:15:42,727 --> 00:15:45,967
So at best, it's ingenuous.

178
00:15:46,427 --> 00:15:47,347
What's the word?

179
00:15:49,287 --> 00:15:49,887
Disingenuous.

180
00:15:50,067 --> 00:15:50,627
Insincere.

181
00:15:50,847 --> 00:15:50,947
Yeah.

182
00:15:50,947 --> 00:15:51,407
Yeah.

183
00:15:51,407 --> 00:15:55,547
Yeah, Eric Voorhees and I go back a long way.

184
00:15:55,887 --> 00:16:00,967
And there are many Bitcoiners like him from the early days.

185
00:16:01,607 --> 00:16:01,787
Yeah.

186
00:16:02,127 --> 00:16:05,607
Unfortunately, as you say, I would consider them LARPitarians.

187
00:16:05,727 --> 00:16:07,107
Would I consider Eric Voorhees a scammer?

188
00:16:07,467 --> 00:16:08,267
Probably not.

189
00:16:08,647 --> 00:16:10,967
But I think he just, he enables scammers.

190
00:16:11,367 --> 00:16:13,547
And I think he doesn't realize that he's doing it.

191
00:16:14,907 --> 00:16:16,707
Yeah, yeah, I can give him the benefit.

192
00:16:16,927 --> 00:16:18,767
I shouldn't be too harsh on the guy either.

193
00:16:18,767 --> 00:16:29,387
But as I said, I don't like picking on people, but I think at least he's definitely enabling scammers by providing that service.

194
00:16:29,767 --> 00:16:36,407
And I think that this is the problem that's infecting Bitcoin Core at the moment is there's all these scammers that are trying to invade Bitcoin.

195
00:16:37,107 --> 00:16:41,707
And the core devs are going, well, you know, the free market likes these scams.

196
00:16:41,947 --> 00:16:45,587
And so, you know, who are we to say what the free market should do?

197
00:16:45,687 --> 00:16:47,227
That's not the free market, though.

198
00:16:47,227 --> 00:16:50,427
So that's the point I really want to hammer in.

199
00:16:51,547 --> 00:16:55,087
And I want to add that, you know, libertarians love the free market.

200
00:16:55,087 --> 00:17:01,007
But what they don't realize is that when you have a money printer that prints the reserve asset, you don't have a free market.

201
00:17:01,187 --> 00:17:02,387
And this is actually my pinned tweet.

202
00:17:02,807 --> 00:17:05,407
Capitalism without money is not capitalism.

203
00:17:06,427 --> 00:17:06,827
100%.

204
00:17:06,827 --> 00:17:10,347
There's all of this, you know, economic demand for all these scams.

205
00:17:10,347 --> 00:17:17,167
And I'm like, yeah, there's a money printer that's stealing money from poor people and just shoveling it into the dumbest shit imaginable.

206
00:17:17,227 --> 00:17:23,747
Of course, people like scamming in that environment. Scamming is is one of the best, most lucrative strategies.

207
00:17:24,767 --> 00:17:26,987
Of course. Yeah. As Bitcoiners, we should fight that.

208
00:17:27,447 --> 00:17:30,867
Absolutely. Absolutely. A new sort of ethic into into being.

209
00:17:31,667 --> 00:17:34,987
Absolutely. A more a more. It's actually an older ethic.

210
00:17:35,327 --> 00:17:44,587
It's actually, I think, a more or more natural or more human ethic, which is that you should you should build things of lasting value and you should provide real value to the world.

211
00:17:44,587 --> 00:17:53,287
And the monetary system should reward that. And the problem with the fiat monetary system is it's the opposite of that. It rewards people for doing bad things and punishes people for doing good things.

212
00:17:53,287 --> 00:17:59,827
absolutely i would call it natural law i mean this is the point one of the underlying points

213
00:17:59,827 --> 00:18:05,087
of the entire praxeology book i wrote is is that we've never had true capitalism because we don't

214
00:18:05,087 --> 00:18:11,347
have sound money not not even on a gold standard we have absolutely finite money supply and you

215
00:18:11,347 --> 00:18:17,047
sort of need that to get to experience the true beauty of the free market where everyone wins

216
00:18:17,047 --> 00:18:22,567
always that has never been tried all right but bitcoin fixes this that is what bitcoin does

217
00:18:22,567 --> 00:18:24,647
Bitcoin absolutely fixes this.

218
00:18:24,907 --> 00:18:26,247
So, yes, where are we?

219
00:18:26,707 --> 00:18:29,347
We're never going to get all the way through this Google Doc, by the way.

220
00:18:29,447 --> 00:18:33,367
I mean, if we're going to do it at this speed, it would take us like 10 hours to get all the way through.

221
00:18:33,707 --> 00:18:35,027
No, but I kind of like it.

222
00:18:35,167 --> 00:18:39,807
And you're welcome to continue any day because I absolutely love this.

223
00:18:39,907 --> 00:18:41,587
Or do you want to do it any other way?

224
00:18:41,687 --> 00:18:45,607
Do you want to speed run through it or do you want to go back and forth?

225
00:18:45,607 --> 00:18:48,388
I have a couple of things that I wanted to highlight.

226
00:18:49,127 --> 00:18:52,287
So one of the things is Merch specifically called me out by name.

227
00:18:52,567 --> 00:18:59,727
um at where is it 54 or something 40. Holy shit this is long. I know yeah you you didn't scroll

228
00:18:59,727 --> 00:19:04,427
all the way to the bottom yet it's a long. Yeah that's why we're never gonna get to the end of

229
00:19:04,427 --> 00:19:09,407
this thing but yeah so I wanted to specifically call that out um it would not call that out but

230
00:19:09,407 --> 00:19:13,987
I wanted to specifically respond to that because he you know misrepresented my position on that

231
00:19:13,987 --> 00:19:19,967
and then yeah I think we should talk about so we're talking about sort of the the the

232
00:19:19,967 --> 00:19:25,627
fundamental philosophy of Bitcoin, which I think we just touched on. And then there's, you know,

233
00:19:25,627 --> 00:19:36,947
things that are effective against spam and why core is making the problem worse rather than

234
00:19:36,947 --> 00:19:48,407
better. And then there's maybe addressing how core has made the problem even worse by not engaging

235
00:19:48,407 --> 00:19:52,388
with the node runners and the NOS supporters

236
00:19:52,388 --> 00:19:54,227
in an honest way.

237
00:19:56,267 --> 00:19:56,787
Yeah.

238
00:19:57,187 --> 00:20:00,707
The large bird's eye viewpoints that I'd like to hit

239
00:20:00,707 --> 00:20:01,727
and then we can...

240
00:20:01,727 --> 00:20:05,327
Okay, you want me to recite the entire quote here

241
00:20:05,327 --> 00:20:08,307
from Merch and where he misrepresents you

242
00:20:08,307 --> 00:20:09,747
or how do we want to do this?

243
00:20:10,807 --> 00:20:12,527
Yeah, you don't have to do that.

244
00:20:12,647 --> 00:20:13,647
I can just say...

245
00:20:13,647 --> 00:20:15,227
So, yeah, so he says Chris Guida

246
00:20:15,227 --> 00:20:17,647
has been making that argument a lot.

247
00:20:17,647 --> 00:20:26,507
OK, so he was talking, you asked him, isn't it more expensive to run a node on a Raspberry Pi or isn't it impossible to run a node on a Raspberry Pi?

248
00:20:26,567 --> 00:20:28,047
And he said, oh, no, that's that's wrong.

249
00:20:28,207 --> 00:20:28,527
That's that's.

250
00:20:28,527 --> 00:20:29,187
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

251
00:20:29,187 --> 00:20:29,587
Yeah.

252
00:20:31,047 --> 00:20:31,447
Yeah.

253
00:20:31,507 --> 00:20:33,787
And then he said, Chris Guida is making that argument a lot.

254
00:20:33,947 --> 00:20:37,687
And then he explained what he why he thought that my argument was wrong.

255
00:20:38,527 --> 00:20:48,187
And then I thought it was interesting that he then explained why Bitcoin Core has, number one, has received a lot of reports of Raspberry Pis being slow to sync.

256
00:20:48,527 --> 00:20:53,888
And Bitcoin Core is specifically focusing on fixing Raspberry Pis, which he said that Lawrence is working on.

257
00:20:54,187 --> 00:20:56,827
So there's a whole lot of detail in all of that.

258
00:20:56,827 --> 00:21:04,647
But I guess just to summarize how he misrepresented my position, he said, so Chris Guida has been making that argument a lot.

259
00:21:04,647 --> 00:21:12,267
It is my impression that he was taking the point at which assume valid, the assume valid block was for an older version of Bitcoin Core at which it starts doing full script validation.

260
00:21:12,427 --> 00:21:15,507
So basically he said Chris Guida did a sink at some point.

261
00:21:16,107 --> 00:21:20,567
So what he thinks that my position is, is, OK, Chris Guida did a sink at some point.

262
00:21:20,747 --> 00:21:25,367
And then he noticed that at some point in the sinking process, it slowed down a lot.

263
00:21:25,747 --> 00:21:27,147
And that's the assume valid point.

264
00:21:27,147 --> 00:21:36,087
And so Chris Guida, being the incompetent, you know, buffoon that he is, assumed that this was the effect of the spam and not the effect of assume valid.

265
00:21:36,087 --> 00:21:43,807
And so I just want to point out that this is this is this is the kind of this is the shit I'm talking about.

266
00:21:43,967 --> 00:21:57,047
Like they just assume that when there's criticisms of how Bitcoin Core works, that the people bringing up the criticisms are incompetent and doing something dumb instead of just listening to the criticism and maybe engaging with the user.

267
00:21:57,047 --> 00:21:59,167
and being like, okay, well, that was your experience.

268
00:21:59,447 --> 00:22:02,107
But a lot of other users have had different experiences from you.

269
00:22:02,347 --> 00:22:03,847
So maybe let's try to figure out

270
00:22:03,847 --> 00:22:05,907
whether there's some kernel of truth in what you're saying

271
00:22:05,907 --> 00:22:06,987
or whether you're just being a troll.

272
00:22:07,207 --> 00:22:08,667
So they're treating me like a troll, right?

273
00:22:08,967 --> 00:22:11,427
But this is improper

274
00:22:11,427 --> 00:22:14,687
because I worked for Start9 for years

275
00:22:14,687 --> 00:22:17,507
and leading up to the spam attacks

276
00:22:17,507 --> 00:22:18,967
and before the spam attack.

277
00:22:19,167 --> 00:22:23,787
And I've directly firsthand experienced

278
00:22:23,787 --> 00:22:30,648
the syncing process on a Raspberry Pi many, many times. And I have the primary, one of the primary

279
00:22:30,648 --> 00:22:36,547
goals of Start9 was to help as many people as possible sync the Bitcoin network as cheaply and

280
00:22:36,547 --> 00:22:41,587
as quickly and as easily as possible to run a lightning node. That was sort of their original

281
00:22:41,587 --> 00:22:50,587
goal. And so it's really just kind of bewildering and very concerning that he thinks that I'm some

282
00:22:50,587 --> 00:22:56,907
kind of just, you know, some kind of incompetent guy with no experience. You know, I'm probably the

283
00:22:56,907 --> 00:23:01,367
person that they should be talking to the most because I'm the most technical person who has

284
00:23:01,367 --> 00:23:04,987
experience syncing lots and lots of Raspberry Pis and helping people sync Raspberry Pis.

285
00:23:05,707 --> 00:23:13,648
So that's just, it's just crazy to me that he would assume that I misinterpreted the effect of

286
00:23:13,648 --> 00:23:16,047
of assume valid for the spam.

287
00:23:16,827 --> 00:23:17,427
It's just...

288
00:23:17,427 --> 00:23:24,207
Okay, so what's the truth about the cost of syncing on a Raspberry Pi?

289
00:23:24,747 --> 00:23:28,507
Is it much worse since February 2023 or not?

290
00:23:28,847 --> 00:23:29,267
Absolutely.

291
00:23:29,747 --> 00:23:30,307
Yes, it is.

292
00:23:31,047 --> 00:23:35,527
So, and as I said, I have firsthand experience syncing many, many Raspberry Pis starting in

293
00:23:35,527 --> 00:23:37,427
2020, which is when I started working for Start9.

294
00:23:37,907 --> 00:23:43,187
All throughout 2021, 2022, you could sync a Raspberry Pi in a few days, maybe a couple

295
00:23:43,187 --> 00:23:47,327
of weeks at most is how long it would take. There's a lot, a lot of moving parts with the

296
00:23:47,327 --> 00:23:54,407
initial sync. So it's like your mileage may vary. But in general, before the spam attacks up until

297
00:23:54,407 --> 00:24:01,467
2022, you could sync a Raspberry Pi in, you know, five to, you know, 14 or 15 days. And then once

298
00:24:01,467 --> 00:24:08,007
the spam attacks started hitting, it slowed down dramatically. And so, and the crazy thing about

299
00:24:08,007 --> 00:24:15,007
this is that Bitcoin Core, the core devs know that UTXO set bloat is bad because they know

300
00:24:15,007 --> 00:24:20,727
it slurs down the initial sync. And they know that if your computer is slow enough, it can make your

301
00:24:20,727 --> 00:24:24,187
computer fall out of sync with the rest of the network because you can have a block that takes

302
00:24:24,187 --> 00:24:30,888
a really long time to validate. And so they know that a large UTXO set is a problem. And we know

303
00:24:30,888 --> 00:24:37,187
that they know because their entire rationale for removing the opportune limit in PR32406

304
00:24:37,187 --> 00:24:39,087
was UTXO set bloat.

305
00:24:39,227 --> 00:24:42,167
They were like, oh my God, Citria is going to add 64 bytes

306
00:24:42,167 --> 00:24:44,467
of unspendable UTXO set bloat.

307
00:24:44,867 --> 00:24:46,207
And this is a huge problem.

308
00:24:46,267 --> 00:24:48,127
This is a problem that's huge enough

309
00:24:48,127 --> 00:24:52,307
that we have to cause basically a civil war in Bitcoin

310
00:24:52,307 --> 00:24:53,507
to fix this problem.

311
00:24:55,407 --> 00:24:59,148
So we know that they know that UTXO set bloat is a problem.

312
00:24:59,627 --> 00:25:02,587
And if they would just be honest with us and say,

313
00:25:02,747 --> 00:25:05,367
yeah, of course, UTXO set bloat is the reason

314
00:25:05,367 --> 00:25:09,767
why Raspberry Pi syncing slowed down dramatically during the spam attacks.

315
00:25:09,927 --> 00:25:14,267
If they said that, then I would trust them that they're engaging with the problem honestly.

316
00:25:15,867 --> 00:25:20,907
Not a single core dev has said, yeah, it's probably true that the UTXO set bloat caused

317
00:25:20,907 --> 00:25:28,027
by the BRC20 spam attack, which I'll remind your listeners, multiplied the UTXO set from

318
00:25:28,027 --> 00:25:29,888
four gigabytes to 12 gigabytes.

319
00:25:29,888 --> 00:25:44,807
It added 200% of the current UTXO set in 2022. By 2024, it was 8 gigabytes more than that. That's a huge amount of UTXO set bloat from this spam attack.

320
00:25:44,807 --> 00:25:55,487
And so they're just complaining about UTXO set bloat when it suits their purposes, i.e. when they want to remove the opportune limit.

321
00:25:56,047 --> 00:26:03,367
But then they ignore UTXO set bloat when they actually need to take a serious look at Bitcoin D's architecture.

322
00:26:04,667 --> 00:26:12,827
And maybe take a serious look and be like, yeah, it's hard to sync a Bitcoin node cheaply and conveniently.

323
00:26:12,827 --> 00:26:16,207
And so as Merck said later, oh, yeah, we are working on this.

324
00:26:16,367 --> 00:26:20,388
Lawrence is working on speeding up the sync on the Raspberry Pi.

325
00:26:20,687 --> 00:26:28,967
So he's both acknowledging it and he's both saying, yeah, it's a problem because he has to say that because that's the, but I'm repeating myself now.

326
00:26:29,207 --> 00:26:30,007
Do you see what I'm saying?

327
00:26:30,467 --> 00:26:35,847
Yeah, yeah, but it's Schrodinger's UTXO set load, just like they did with Schrodinger's UTXO set load.

328
00:26:36,087 --> 00:26:42,587
And I've heard Mechanic make this argument, too, about the UTXO set load and how they're going back and forth on it.

329
00:26:42,587 --> 00:26:52,107
So why do you think that is? What makes them do that? It sounds suspiciously a lot like corruption to me, but is that what you're saying?

330
00:26:52,747 --> 00:26:58,707
So I will be charitable and I will assume that they are doing it because of laziness.

331
00:26:59,267 --> 00:27:03,207
So all of their actions can be assumed by laziness.

332
00:27:03,507 --> 00:27:08,627
So basically, you know, if so, so fixing IBD is a very, very, very difficult problem.

333
00:27:08,627 --> 00:27:17,027
I mean, there's an insanely large amount of moving parts to try to make IBD quicker, especially on a device like the Raspberry Pi, which is...

334
00:27:17,027 --> 00:27:19,207
Initial block download, right?

335
00:27:19,467 --> 00:27:20,447
Yes, the initial block download.

336
00:27:20,447 --> 00:27:25,667
Yeah, for listeners who are not familiar with the abbreviations.

337
00:27:25,807 --> 00:27:26,687
Okay, yeah.

338
00:27:26,847 --> 00:27:29,148
So there's a razor there somewhere.

339
00:27:29,287 --> 00:27:31,007
You're familiar with Occam's razor.

340
00:27:31,007 --> 00:27:33,067
Like maybe this is Chris Guida's razor.

341
00:27:33,587 --> 00:27:35,087
Never a tribute to Malice.

342
00:27:35,587 --> 00:27:36,007
Yeah, it's Guida.

343
00:27:36,207 --> 00:27:37,027
Guida, sorry.

344
00:27:37,027 --> 00:27:54,355
Maybe this is Chris Guida razor never attribute to malice that which can be explained by laziness Laziness Exactly All right Oh well that good So what I saying is so if you look at their rationale for removing the opportune limit it was basically laziness

345
00:27:54,655 --> 00:27:56,795
They were like, we don't want to have to deal with this every time.

346
00:27:56,795 --> 00:28:00,035
So we're just going to get rid of it and maybe somebody else will deal with it.

347
00:28:00,315 --> 00:28:01,535
That was basically their rationale.

348
00:28:01,835 --> 00:28:03,115
And the same thing with IBD.

349
00:28:03,235 --> 00:28:08,555
They were basically like, well, you know, whenever somebody complains about slow IBD, we're just going to ignore them.

350
00:28:08,935 --> 00:28:09,315
Right.

351
00:28:09,315 --> 00:28:13,715
If you just ignore all of the criticism, then you make less work for yourself.

352
00:28:13,975 --> 00:28:16,855
So I think that's actually the proper explanation for this.

353
00:28:18,835 --> 00:28:18,995
Yeah.

354
00:28:22,155 --> 00:28:24,675
That's interesting, to say the least.

355
00:28:24,855 --> 00:28:25,715
Where do we go next?

356
00:28:25,935 --> 00:28:26,295
All right.

357
00:28:27,995 --> 00:28:36,075
Censorship resistance is an important property of Bitcoin, but it's not the most important property because there are a lot of systems that are censorship resistant.

358
00:28:36,075 --> 00:28:36,515
Yeah.

359
00:28:36,515 --> 00:28:38,775
Only one censorship resistant money.

360
00:28:39,315 --> 00:28:50,635
Yeah. So this is this is something that Murch said. I think he talked to you and then he talked to Luke DeWolf about, which is censorship resistance is a core feature of Bitcoin.

361
00:28:51,495 --> 00:28:57,995
Yeah, I've heard many people say that that's think that that's the absolute most important property.

362
00:28:59,135 --> 00:29:06,375
Yeah, so it is a very important property. It's kind of like what you were saying earlier with store of value and medium of exchange being important properties.

363
00:29:06,375 --> 00:29:23,375
They're both important properties. We have to have both of them. Right. So censorship resistance is one is like that. Right. It's it's something that without which Bitcoin would not work. OK, Bitcoin has to be censorship resistant. However, that is not sufficient for Bitcoin to succeed. Bitcoin needs to be censorship resistant money.

364
00:29:23,375 --> 00:29:34,535
If it stops being money, but it's censorship resistant, then it doesn't have any advantages over shit coins like Litecoin and BCH and Monero.

365
00:29:35,315 --> 00:29:36,915
And even worse than that, it doesn't have any.

366
00:29:37,075 --> 00:29:42,395
There's lots of censorship resistant data storage tech like BitTorrent and IPFS and Nostr.

367
00:29:42,755 --> 00:29:47,855
Those are censorship resistant data storage systems.

368
00:29:48,555 --> 00:29:50,835
And, you know, we already have those, right?

369
00:29:50,835 --> 00:29:55,575
We don't need another censorship resistant data storage platform.

370
00:29:55,835 --> 00:29:57,555
Bitcoin is censorship resistant money.

371
00:29:58,015 --> 00:29:59,095
That's what makes it interesting.

372
00:29:59,955 --> 00:30:03,795
Yeah, and I think people have the wrong definition of the word censorship

373
00:30:03,795 --> 00:30:09,235
because censorship implies that you were coerced or threatened to not say something

374
00:30:09,235 --> 00:30:11,575
or to not send some information.

375
00:30:12,215 --> 00:30:15,835
And there is no such thing going on in people filtering stuff.

376
00:30:15,835 --> 00:30:20,995
There's no such thing going on if people find a consensus around the cat, for instance.

377
00:30:21,095 --> 00:30:22,055
That's not censorship.

378
00:30:22,435 --> 00:30:23,775
It's not confiscation.

379
00:30:24,115 --> 00:30:27,355
It's just people agreeing that this is OK and this is not OK.

380
00:30:27,815 --> 00:30:30,935
This is not censorship because there are no guns involved.

381
00:30:31,035 --> 00:30:32,475
And I think people get that backwards.

382
00:30:33,795 --> 00:30:33,915
Yeah.

383
00:30:34,115 --> 00:30:36,235
So, yeah, censorship resistance is a big topic.

384
00:30:36,375 --> 00:30:41,575
I think that Merch and most of the core devs have a rather extreme view on this.

385
00:30:41,855 --> 00:30:44,615
And this goes back to the Schrodinger's Filter thing.

386
00:30:44,615 --> 00:30:54,775
Like they both think that, you know, running knots is censorship or like they both say that filters work and filters don't work.

387
00:30:54,975 --> 00:31:00,655
Right. So they'll say, oh, filters don't work unless, you know, 90 percent or more of the network is filtering.

388
00:31:01,035 --> 00:31:03,595
But then they'll say, oh, but filtering is censorship.

389
00:31:04,995 --> 00:31:08,115
Yeah. And so it's kind of like, OK, well, you have to pick one or the other.

390
00:31:08,115 --> 00:31:18,475
If it's easy to get a transaction confirmed that 10% of the network is relaying and 90% of the network is filtering, then censorship on Bitcoin is really, really, really hard, which is my position, right?

391
00:31:18,835 --> 00:31:27,055
Like, even if 100% of the network is filtering transactions, Bitcoin is still censorship resistant because you can just send your transaction directly to a miner.

392
00:31:27,735 --> 00:31:35,555
I think it's deeper, though, because I think this is back to the LARP-itarians versus the libertarians, because filtering is not censorship at all.

393
00:31:35,555 --> 00:31:43,875
And stopping someone from sending a transaction because it's not really a monetary transaction, I wouldn't define that as censorship at all.

394
00:31:44,055 --> 00:31:45,635
Like super far from it.

395
00:31:46,335 --> 00:31:46,555
Exactly.

396
00:31:46,895 --> 00:31:47,015
Yeah.

397
00:31:47,095 --> 00:31:53,815
So the Bitcoin transaction relay network is basically just, it's kind of like a bunch of people in a room playing telephone.

398
00:31:54,675 --> 00:32:00,035
You know, somebody is whispering things in your ear and then you're whispering things to all of your friends based on what they said.

399
00:32:00,035 --> 00:32:07,335
Right. And so what a filter is, is that sometimes when you hear somebody whisper a message, you think I'm not going to whisper that.

400
00:32:07,675 --> 00:32:17,115
That's all a filter is. It's just, you know, I am not going to enable this particular piece of information to propagate widely throughout the network.

401
00:32:17,355 --> 00:32:22,215
You know, the buck stops from me. Right. Obviously, on a distributed network, that's difficult.

402
00:32:22,435 --> 00:32:29,935
But, you know, as you were saying, it's important to still send that signal like these transactions are abusive and these transactions are.

403
00:32:30,035 --> 00:32:34,115
are not abusive right these transactions are data storage and these transactions are money

404
00:32:34,675 --> 00:32:39,555
so i run a node so that i can enable bitcoin to be better money and so i am enthusiastic about

405
00:32:40,355 --> 00:32:45,795
relaying payment transactions to my peers but i am not enthusiastic about relaying data

406
00:32:45,795 --> 00:32:50,835
transactions to my peers because those make bitcoin worse money satoshi set this precedent

407
00:32:50,835 --> 00:32:57,635
satoshi set the precedent of and you know this is a whole conversation about uh why the the

408
00:32:57,635 --> 00:32:59,295
the opportunity conflict happened.

409
00:32:59,795 --> 00:33:01,335
But basically the core position is,

410
00:33:01,475 --> 00:33:03,795
you know, well, there shouldn't be filters, right?

411
00:33:04,115 --> 00:33:06,975
You know, the relay, everything that gets reliably,

412
00:33:07,255 --> 00:33:09,335
everything that gets reliably mined

413
00:33:09,335 --> 00:33:11,155
should be relayed by the relay network.

414
00:33:11,535 --> 00:33:13,415
And the precedent that Satoshi set

415
00:33:13,415 --> 00:33:14,795
is completely counter to that.

416
00:33:15,255 --> 00:33:16,275
Satoshi set the precedent of,

417
00:33:16,415 --> 00:33:18,635
we're going to have very loose consensus rules

418
00:33:18,635 --> 00:33:22,135
so that we can always do softworks to upgrade the rules.

419
00:33:22,275 --> 00:33:24,435
And when you do softworks, you're restricting the rules.

420
00:33:24,515 --> 00:33:26,535
So you're taking this very like unrestricted rule set

421
00:33:26,535 --> 00:33:30,755
And then you're sort of incrementally restricting it over time to make Bitcoin better money.

422
00:33:31,135 --> 00:33:32,255
But the filters are the opposite, right?

423
00:33:32,315 --> 00:33:37,575
The filters, you want filters to be as restrictive as possible to only allow the monetary uses and not the data uses.

424
00:33:38,655 --> 00:33:39,995
And again, Satoshi set this precedent.

425
00:33:40,375 --> 00:33:46,955
And we've been doing that, you know, since the beginning, except for the last few years when Core has suddenly done a 180 on that.

426
00:33:48,155 --> 00:33:52,595
I think that you might slightly be misrepresenting that position.

427
00:33:52,595 --> 00:34:02,475
I think what March tried to get, the point March tried to get across was that it's more or less futile, not necessarily that they should be relayed.

428
00:34:02,535 --> 00:34:10,875
It's just that the filtering is kind of futile and that especially that the op-return policy is futile because these things get mined anyway.

429
00:34:11,275 --> 00:34:17,695
So their position is that it's harmful to have filters that are filtering things that are popular.

430
00:34:17,695 --> 00:34:20,135
For fee estimation and stuff like that, right?

431
00:34:21,015 --> 00:34:25,475
Yes, both for fee estimation, but mostly for mining centralization.

432
00:34:25,595 --> 00:34:33,435
So they say, OK, well, if you filter things that are popularly being mined, then you do a few things, right?

433
00:34:33,435 --> 00:34:35,495
You mess up fee estimation, which is wrong.

434
00:34:35,595 --> 00:34:38,075
You don't actually mess up fee estimation that much.

435
00:34:39,255 --> 00:34:41,255
Might it be a little bit different from the rest of the network?

436
00:34:41,375 --> 00:34:41,515
Sure.

437
00:34:41,655 --> 00:34:43,835
But that's not relevant for reasons we can get into.

438
00:34:43,955 --> 00:34:46,595
They say that it causes mining centralization for two reasons.

439
00:34:46,895 --> 00:34:49,895
One, because it makes block propagation slower.

440
00:34:49,895 --> 00:35:01,075
So basically that favors large miners because large miners can sort of do this accidental selfish mining attack where they, what is it?

441
00:35:03,235 --> 00:35:10,555
Yeah, anyway, when you make block propagation slower, I forget what the argument is exactly, but this is why it would be good to talk to a guy.

442
00:35:10,555 --> 00:35:17,475
I think there's a bunch of software that doesn't like that, that will not function as well.

443
00:35:17,475 --> 00:35:23,935
yeah it's basically okay if you if you if you're a well-connected miner and you're a well-funded

444
00:35:23,935 --> 00:35:27,875
miner right you're a large miner you can you can uh you can have better infrastructure and you can

445
00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:32,055
make sure that your blocks propagate more quickly and then if some of the network doesn't receive

446
00:35:32,055 --> 00:35:36,295
your blocks well that's actually an advantage for you because then you can just start mining on top

447
00:35:36,295 --> 00:35:40,515
of that block that you already mined and then the rest of the network might be a disadvantage to you

448
00:35:40,515 --> 00:35:44,475
because you have a higher hash rate and you can do what's called a selfish mining attack but the

449
00:35:44,475 --> 00:35:58,255
But the counter to that, that the not side makes, is that, well, you're harming yourself if the rest of the network doesn't see your block because a block that's filled with spam is going to get filtered, you know, is going to propagate more slowly because of block reconstruction.

450
00:35:58,595 --> 00:35:59,455
We can get into that.

451
00:36:01,135 --> 00:36:05,875
And so you have a higher risk of your block being orphaned.

452
00:36:05,875 --> 00:36:23,775
And actually, if you go back to the docs when compact blocks were added in 2016, you'll see that the Bitcoin Core official release in the release notes said, hey, miners, you should update to the official defaults of Bitcoin Core, because if you don't, your blocks are going to take longer to propagate and that will raise your risk.

453
00:36:23,775 --> 00:36:30,055
and then the the last way that it that it that they say it causes mining centralization is that

454
00:36:30,055 --> 00:36:36,875
it it pushes people to use out of band um out of band transaction submission and because larger

455
00:36:36,875 --> 00:36:42,155
miners are more likely to have direct apis and those direct apis are more likely to be seen

456
00:36:42,155 --> 00:36:46,475
you know by you know there's a power law right if you have a large miner that has a large amount

457
00:36:46,475 --> 00:36:49,815
of hash rate people are going to submit their transactions privately to that miner more than

458
00:36:49,815 --> 00:36:53,935
they're going to submit their transactions privately to smaller miners because those

459
00:36:53,935 --> 00:36:59,535
have less chance of getting confirmed. But there's a way around that, too, which we can also go into.

460
00:37:00,315 --> 00:37:01,735
What's the counter argument to that?

461
00:37:02,215 --> 00:37:07,875
The counter argument to that is you can easily build a protocol that allows users to submit to

462
00:37:07,875 --> 00:37:14,495
a pool of mining pools and that basically has whatever attributes the user likes.

463
00:37:14,495 --> 00:37:21,655
so instead of instead of a instead of a public relay network where everybody sees the transaction

464
00:37:21,655 --> 00:37:26,575
you have a a private relay network that nevertheless includes a lot of large miners

465
00:37:26,575 --> 00:37:34,395
and small miners so that would be completely feasible to build okay uh but but but still

466
00:37:34,395 --> 00:37:40,235
you have to build it so so there's a there's a slight hurdle of course yeah but what i'm saying

467
00:37:40,235 --> 00:37:45,735
is, you know, if we needed to build it, then we could. You should check out our latest sponsor,

468
00:37:45,935 --> 00:37:51,855
BitVault. BitVault is real hardcore Bitcoin security. They combine multi-sig with a time

469
00:37:51,855 --> 00:37:59,775
delay so that they discourage thieves from using five or 15 or $21 wrenches to bash your head in.

470
00:38:00,055 --> 00:38:05,555
This time lock function increases the risk for the thief, discourages coercion, and makes the

471
00:38:05,555 --> 00:38:11,415
whole act less likely to happen. Go to bitvolt.sv right now and check out their offers. You can get

472
00:38:11,415 --> 00:38:17,455
a yearly subscription for $129, and it's a fantastic product overall. Brush your teeth.

473
00:38:17,775 --> 00:38:22,855
Our favorite hardware wallet is, of course, the Bitbox. Check out our friends at Bitbox at

474
00:38:22,855 --> 00:38:28,375
bitbox.swiss. There you'll find a bunch of different products, but the main one,

475
00:38:28,635 --> 00:38:34,135
the Bitbox O2 Nova with the Bitcoin firmware installed, is a fantastic hardware wallet,

476
00:38:34,135 --> 00:38:38,655
and the software that comes along with it has a fantastic user interface.

477
00:38:38,935 --> 00:38:40,775
It is one of my personal favorites.

478
00:38:41,055 --> 00:38:42,815
It's easy to use and it's super secure.

479
00:38:43,155 --> 00:38:45,415
It's my personal favorite hardware wallet.

480
00:38:45,815 --> 00:38:50,275
It's super slick, super privacy focused and super easy to use.

481
00:38:50,275 --> 00:38:58,615
So go to bitbox.swiss and use code infinity for a discount.

482
00:38:58,975 --> 00:38:59,575
Check it out now.

483
00:38:59,575 --> 00:39:16,455
Yeah, this reminds me of why I initially really liked the CAT proposal, because it so clearly points out that Bitcoin, it is more risky to try to embed data on Bitcoin than to not do it.

484
00:39:16,455 --> 00:39:29,055
And that's the way it's supposed to be, because you expose yourself to the risk of the network being pissed enough to basically, well, quote unquote, censor your transaction at some point in the future.

485
00:39:29,055 --> 00:39:33,335
And it pointed out that that is possible as long as we agree on it.

486
00:39:33,655 --> 00:39:36,935
Whether we will or not is another question.

487
00:39:37,675 --> 00:39:45,975
But just the fact that it was never proof of work solely that shielded your transactions and made it safe.

488
00:39:46,175 --> 00:39:49,615
It was first and foremost the consensus of the network.

489
00:39:50,175 --> 00:39:51,315
And I love that.

490
00:39:51,575 --> 00:39:52,935
It's always people.

491
00:39:53,375 --> 00:39:53,935
Right.

492
00:39:53,935 --> 00:40:05,795
Yeah. And I love that you brought that up because the kind of the moment where the your interview with Murch became sort of less interesting is when Murch was like, yeah, I agree with you, but there's nothing we can do about it.

493
00:40:05,795 --> 00:40:14,295
So the cat points to the to what the solution is. The solution is to break the shit coiners protocols. That's the solution. And that's how we've always done it.

494
00:40:14,295 --> 00:40:20,755
If you go back to, you know, 2013, 2014, whenever the opera turn wars against the counterparty people and the Omni people and all that.

495
00:40:22,375 --> 00:40:28,295
Basically, the Bitcoin core devs were like, OK, you can build that, but we're going to add filters and consensus rules that break your shit.

496
00:40:29,575 --> 00:40:43,215
So so the scammers who were trying to launch these these, you know, spammy, scammy protocols on top of Bitcoin were like, oh, well, we're going to lose all our money if Bitcoin devs are at war with us, you know, and they're constantly escalating until we leave.

497
00:40:43,215 --> 00:40:49,315
And so let's just preemptively leave and go to some other blockchain, which is what they did. And then they left us alone for a decade.

498
00:40:49,315 --> 00:40:57,175
so uh if we give the core the benefit of the doubt there and say that the the argument i think

499
00:40:57,175 --> 00:41:03,235
from merch and others is that yeah but it's futile because they can just route around it and they can

500
00:41:03,235 --> 00:41:09,055
just do it again and blah blah blah and my counter to that is that yeah but at least that there's a

501
00:41:09,055 --> 00:41:17,275
cost attached next time and i think the cat very much points out that you you are putting yourself

502
00:41:17,275 --> 00:41:18,935
at risk by adding spam.

503
00:41:18,935 --> 00:41:20,675
Like it's it's real.

504
00:41:20,675 --> 00:41:21,815
The risk is real.

505
00:41:22,815 --> 00:41:23,175
Right.

506
00:41:23,775 --> 00:41:26,515
You know, and people are right to point out that that

507
00:41:26,515 --> 00:41:29,015
that is kind of confiscation.

508
00:41:29,015 --> 00:41:32,615
But at the same time, as Greg Maxwell pointed out, you know,

509
00:41:32,615 --> 00:41:34,735
Bitcoin is distributed authoritarianism.

510
00:41:34,735 --> 00:41:49,962
And if the entire network comes to a consensus to confiscate your coins well then your coins get confiscated I mean yeah like you know we like to think that we like to think that Bitcoin is like this magic thing that will never do anything hostile against any of its users

511
00:41:50,242 --> 00:41:54,462
But if its users are doing things that are hostile to it, it needs to be able to protect itself.

512
00:41:54,742 --> 00:42:02,022
And so if if 99 percent of the Bitcoin community comes to the agreement that we should change the rules, then we're going to change the rules.

513
00:42:02,222 --> 00:42:03,502
I mean, Bitcoin is a consensus system.

514
00:42:03,502 --> 00:42:31,102
Yeah, this was always true. And this was like, this is the deeper layer that people misunderstand. And when that works, by the way, then Bitcoin can only be better. Because we sort of define better. If we all agree, then it is better. Like, that's why we all agree. Like, so it can only evolve for the better. And when that light bulb moment happened for me, it was like, holy shit, this is like super evolution.

515
00:42:33,502 --> 00:42:40,362
it brings you know large human organizations back in line with human values and this is what and

516
00:42:40,362 --> 00:42:44,842
this is what libertarianism tries to do but i think misses the point a little bit and i think

517
00:42:44,842 --> 00:42:52,442
yeah okay i i think there that you have the wrong the wrong uh impression of what i could read

518
00:42:52,442 --> 00:42:56,582
between the lines of that shit long thread about that where we had a back and forth with all sorts

519
00:42:56,582 --> 00:43:01,402
of people uh was that i think you have the wrong view because i think you think the people at the

520
00:43:01,402 --> 00:43:08,722
narco were libertarians basically but it's not the the rothbardian ethical stuff stuff i mean there

521
00:43:08,722 --> 00:43:13,362
were it wasn't just those people i mean you like again you're kind of you're kind of doing what

522
00:43:13,362 --> 00:43:17,822
nirsch was doing with with my complaint about ibd you're all right oh well chris didn't do it right

523
00:43:17,822 --> 00:43:24,462
you know he didn't okay let's address the let's address the actual point then where do you think

524
00:43:24,462 --> 00:43:29,822
libertarianism is wrong about these points what do you think we get wrong i think it it

525
00:43:29,822 --> 00:43:32,742
underestimates the importance of enforcing the rules.

526
00:43:33,482 --> 00:43:36,902
So basically it considers,

527
00:43:37,182 --> 00:43:39,002
it assumes that all humans have human values

528
00:43:39,002 --> 00:43:43,402
and that there are no humans that are psychopaths.

529
00:43:43,402 --> 00:43:47,762
And so if you have, there are, you know,

530
00:43:47,862 --> 00:43:50,742
there's a natural feature of evolution,

531
00:43:50,742 --> 00:43:54,982
which is that some humans that have otherwise human DNA

532
00:43:54,982 --> 00:43:58,222
become predators and parasites to other humans.

533
00:43:58,222 --> 00:43:59,982
and these are called psychopaths.

534
00:44:00,162 --> 00:44:01,822
And when you have these people,

535
00:44:01,902 --> 00:44:02,862
you have to treat them differently

536
00:44:02,862 --> 00:44:03,942
from other types of humans

537
00:44:03,942 --> 00:44:08,662
because they see you as another type,

538
00:44:08,802 --> 00:44:10,442
as a different type of organism.

539
00:44:10,942 --> 00:44:13,042
And so with my example of, you know,

540
00:44:13,142 --> 00:44:16,122
if you have an anthill in your backyard

541
00:44:16,122 --> 00:44:17,922
and you decide to destroy the anthill,

542
00:44:18,482 --> 00:44:20,142
you know, the ants might think,

543
00:44:20,262 --> 00:44:22,202
oh no, you're infringing my property rights,

544
00:44:22,202 --> 00:44:24,242
but it doesn't matter because your shoe.

545
00:44:25,102 --> 00:44:26,762
Yeah, but I think-

546
00:44:26,762 --> 00:44:28,082
And so that's what psychopaths do, right?

547
00:44:28,082 --> 00:44:31,802
psychopaths say, well, I have more guns. And so it doesn't matter. Your rights don't matter.

548
00:44:32,342 --> 00:44:36,582
And so when you're dealing with those people, you have to treat you, you can't, you can't treat them.

549
00:44:36,682 --> 00:44:42,202
You have to put them in jail or do something with them, right? Or enforce the rules against those

550
00:44:42,202 --> 00:44:48,642
people. Yeah. But I don't think this is the, I don't at all think this is something libertarians

551
00:44:48,642 --> 00:44:54,742
miss or anarcho-capitalists miss. I think anarcho-capitalists is the only group that

552
00:44:54,742 --> 00:45:00,842
is actually honest about what happens because we have these psychopaths because these psychopaths

553
00:45:00,842 --> 00:45:07,782
end up as state leaders always like and they they wage wars which is just basically mass murder

554
00:45:07,782 --> 00:45:15,422
it's fucking awful uh so so we we are the only ones daring to imagine a system where this can't

555
00:45:15,422 --> 00:45:22,962
even be possible where we recognize each other's rights to defend ourselves to the fullest right

556
00:45:22,962 --> 00:45:42,582
Well, I don't know if you want to go through this whole can of worms, but I mean, yeah, I've done many, many years of deep reflection about all these questions, and I've hung out with a lot of people who call themselves anarcho-capitalists, and I've hung out with even leaders of the anarcho-capitalist movement, people who are widely influential in the libertarian movement.

557
00:45:42,582 --> 00:45:49,622
So, I mean, just to dismiss me as, oh, he hung out with the anarcho-capitalist people once, and he got the wrong idea.

558
00:45:49,622 --> 00:46:02,642
No, I'm saying that that's the vibe I got from that thread because I read a lot of the responses you were giving were not addressing the actual, you know, Hoppe and argumentation ethics and the non-aggression principle.

559
00:46:02,642 --> 00:46:11,902
You were misrepresenting those by not admitting that punishment is very much a thing in anarcho-capitalism.

560
00:46:11,902 --> 00:46:19,002
but when you actually go and hang out in libertarian or anarcho-capitalist society see

561
00:46:19,002 --> 00:46:23,842
this is the problem with anarcho-capitalists is they don't apply their ideas to reality they just

562
00:46:23,842 --> 00:46:28,462
talk about their ideas and they imagine futures and then they don't actually go and try it and so

563
00:46:28,462 --> 00:46:33,282
what i'm saying is i tried it i hung out with people who were who were freedom-minded and were

564
00:46:33,282 --> 00:46:39,502
who called themselves anarcho-capitalists and we tried to make a society that worked on anarcho-

565
00:46:39,502 --> 00:46:42,982
capitalist principles and it doesn't work. And you know why it doesn't work? Because the psychopaths

566
00:46:42,982 --> 00:46:47,802
come in and they take over and then you have to make a state either out of either the psychopaths

567
00:46:47,802 --> 00:46:51,842
make a state and now you just have, you know, a constitutive war where you have to make a state

568
00:46:51,842 --> 00:46:56,662
to fight off the psychopaths. And then the psychopaths come and take over whatever state

569
00:46:56,662 --> 00:47:05,422
that you made. Okay. I would just not frame that as it not working because it is like the,

570
00:47:05,422 --> 00:47:09,562
There is no working or not working since it's not a political ideology.

571
00:47:09,562 --> 00:47:15,442
It's just a lens to view the world through, which is more honest than every other lens.

572
00:47:15,442 --> 00:47:18,722
What I'm saying is, is it honest if you can't apply it in the real world?

573
00:47:18,982 --> 00:47:22,282
What I'm saying is you need to actually take into account incentives.

574
00:47:22,582 --> 00:47:25,222
You need to take into account the economics of violence.

575
00:47:25,822 --> 00:47:26,502
Okay, okay.

576
00:47:26,722 --> 00:47:35,402
So the way I see it is that two plus two will still equal four, regardless if there's a psychopath on top telling everyone that it equals five.

577
00:47:35,422 --> 00:47:41,922
it still equals four and the same is true for hopian argumentation ethics you cannot argue

578
00:47:41,922 --> 00:47:48,762
against that you control your own body because by doing the argumentation i need to control my body

579
00:47:48,762 --> 00:47:54,462
so thereby i prove that human beings have control over their bodies so it's the same kind of

580
00:47:54,462 --> 00:47:59,342
axiomatic thinking as mathematics it only works as long as the other person buys into your system

581
00:47:59,342 --> 00:48:07,462
If a psychopath says, 2 plus 2 equals 5, or I'm going to shoot you, then they're right.

582
00:48:07,462 --> 00:48:09,542
You're missing my point.

583
00:48:09,942 --> 00:48:13,342
It still doesn't invalidate the non-aggression principle.

584
00:48:13,702 --> 00:48:16,382
It's just someone violating it.

585
00:48:16,642 --> 00:48:23,302
It still doesn't make it less true, because it's still true that we would all be better off if we didn't aggress against one another.

586
00:48:23,402 --> 00:48:27,802
And there's no justification for aggression, no natural justification for it.

587
00:48:27,802 --> 00:48:31,822
That is still true, regardless of if someone violates it or not.

588
00:48:32,142 --> 00:48:35,382
Knut, the history of all of humanity.

589
00:48:36,202 --> 00:48:36,762
Yeah.

590
00:48:38,042 --> 00:48:42,162
There are incentives to violence.

591
00:48:42,302 --> 00:48:45,102
If there were not incentives to violence, then people would not be violent.

592
00:48:45,342 --> 00:48:49,942
But the fact that there's violence everywhere, there are incentives to violence.

593
00:48:50,642 --> 00:48:55,862
We're talking over each other's heads here, because my response to that would be,

594
00:48:55,862 --> 00:48:58,502
yeah, but what's a priori about human history?

595
00:48:58,622 --> 00:48:58,882
Nothing.

596
00:48:59,202 --> 00:49:01,602
Like you can say two plus two equals five

597
00:49:01,602 --> 00:49:04,382
because people have believed that for 10,000 years.

598
00:49:04,502 --> 00:49:05,562
It's still not five.

599
00:49:06,662 --> 00:49:10,042
A priori systems are not useful.

600
00:49:10,402 --> 00:49:11,942
The reason why mathematics is useful,

601
00:49:12,082 --> 00:49:14,362
mathematics does not say anything about underlying reality.

602
00:49:14,542 --> 00:49:18,162
Mathematics is a language that humans can use to describe reality.

603
00:49:18,622 --> 00:49:20,002
And so it's very useful at that.

604
00:49:20,262 --> 00:49:22,562
But there are alternate forms of mathematics

605
00:49:22,562 --> 00:49:24,642
that rely on alternate axioms.

606
00:49:24,642 --> 00:49:35,482
And so, you know, if you just take if you take different axioms, then you have a completely different system. And this is what and this is the problem that I have with praxeology and and Kansa.

607
00:49:35,682 --> 00:49:45,602
You know, they're just like they just declare that, oh, you know, this this is true and we're not going to worry about collecting evidence about whether whether our system is true or not.

608
00:49:45,602 --> 00:50:05,462
And that's precisely the problem. If you build a system on top of axioms that are not viable, then you'll end up with a system that causes more harm than good. And so that's what libertarians and anarcho-capitalists often do. They take these axioms to be true, and they're not.

609
00:50:05,462 --> 00:50:10,302
right they're they're true and these systems work as long as everybody buys into the system

610
00:50:10,302 --> 00:50:14,622
but as soon as you have a psychopath that doesn't buy into the system now you have to deal with that

611
00:50:14,622 --> 00:50:18,422
you have to deal with the incentive yeah but i have the other person to just come in

612
00:50:18,422 --> 00:50:23,242
yeah yeah but okay okay more anarcho-capitalist systems wouldn't we

613
00:50:23,242 --> 00:50:27,522
yeah well absolutely we would see more anarcho-capitalistic

614
00:50:27,522 --> 00:50:33,002
systems if there weren't psychopaths in the world i absolutely 100 agree with that because

615
00:50:33,002 --> 00:50:38,942
the psychopaths are the ones violating the non-aggression principle we should design

616
00:50:38,942 --> 00:50:47,642
systems that take into account okay who's we who's we people trying to build better systems

617
00:50:47,642 --> 00:50:54,402
yeah but so well i think that big winners are trying to build better systems i think that the

618
00:50:54,402 --> 00:50:57,802
reason are here is because we're trying to make a better system than what came before

619
00:50:57,802 --> 00:51:07,022
Yeah, and that's why we're building it on Austrian principles, which is the same branch of science that leads to anarcho-capitalism.

620
00:51:07,242 --> 00:51:10,602
I think we should build a new system on principles that work in reality.

621
00:51:10,762 --> 00:51:23,262
I think we should take into account reality and evidence and history instead of trying to just kind of intuit this utopia that is not actually applicable when you try to put it into the real world.

622
00:51:23,262 --> 00:51:35,082
Yeah, but okay, once again, I'm just defending my personal view here because I don't view it as a system that you transition into and all of a sudden you live in Ancapistan.

623
00:51:35,082 --> 00:51:45,982
I just view it as a lens to view the world through, to acknowledge to yourself what is justifiable behavior and what is not.

624
00:51:46,762 --> 00:51:52,922
And it's super simple because what can be true for all humans at all times?

625
00:51:52,922 --> 00:51:55,642
And the only universal principle is property rights.

626
00:51:55,722 --> 00:51:58,362
It's like, you cannot violate my property.

627
00:51:58,802 --> 00:52:04,122
Like, if we don't get closer to that, we get less civilized.

628
00:52:04,322 --> 00:52:06,862
If we get closer to that, we get more civilized.

629
00:52:07,262 --> 00:52:09,002
Like, it's so basic.

630
00:52:09,302 --> 00:52:16,602
And also, I'd like to hear you try to refute one of the praxeological axioms.

631
00:52:16,762 --> 00:52:21,322
You may pick whichever one you use and just argue against it.

632
00:52:21,322 --> 00:52:29,422
impossible to refute an axiom do you know what an axiom is it's yeah yeah fine to be true so you

633
00:52:29,422 --> 00:52:35,062
can't be like no no no but okay let me say principles instead let's say principles instead

634
00:52:35,062 --> 00:52:40,342
i'm using the word wrong uh so one of the austrian economics principles one of the

635
00:52:40,342 --> 00:52:47,582
praxeological principles can you argue against it like for instance human action is purposeful

636
00:52:47,582 --> 00:52:53,462
behavior. Can you argue against that? Yes, in most cases. Right. So what I'm saying is that,

637
00:52:53,542 --> 00:52:58,822
yes, the principles of libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism and Austrian economics are

638
00:52:58,822 --> 00:53:04,802
good principles in theory. But in practice, there are people who are going to ignore that system

639
00:53:04,802 --> 00:53:08,602
and are going to ignore those principles. And if you don't do something about that,

640
00:53:08,642 --> 00:53:12,602
if you don't do something about people who are ignoring your system, then your system is going

641
00:53:12,602 --> 00:53:16,942
to get eaten either from the outside or from the inside. And that's what we always see with

642
00:53:16,942 --> 00:53:21,522
with decentralized systems that tried to provide decentralized collective defense.

643
00:53:21,682 --> 00:53:28,842
But doing something about it that does not violate the non-aggression principle.

644
00:53:29,102 --> 00:53:32,602
Defense is not violation of the non-aggression principle.

645
00:53:32,962 --> 00:53:36,122
In fact, there's a book by Rothbard called The Ethics of Liberty

646
00:53:36,122 --> 00:53:40,002
that allows the victim to do, what's it called?

647
00:53:40,742 --> 00:53:42,342
Reparation and retribution.

648
00:53:42,342 --> 00:53:44,802
So it's basically two eyes for one eye.

649
00:53:44,802 --> 00:54:02,162
That's what the victim is entitled to. So none of this, none of this trying to fight psychopaths, none of that breaks the non-aggression principle at all. Like it's defense. We're allowed to do that. No, aggression is when you initiate violence. It's not when you defend yourself.

650
00:54:02,162 --> 00:54:30,402
I know I'm saying if it works, then show me an example. It doesn't work while you're deliberating about who has what rights. And, you know, you're litigating, you know, oh, who infringed on who first? The psychopaths are are stealing everything. They're just they're just going in and saying you aggressed on me first. And they're just lying. And then everybody has to go. And it's way easier to spread bullshit than to disprove bullshit.

651
00:54:30,402 --> 00:54:31,622
Have you heard that saying?

652
00:54:31,902 --> 00:54:34,162
Like, it's like a bunch of bullshit.

653
00:54:34,602 --> 00:54:37,542
And that just DDoS is everyone's time and attention.

654
00:54:38,322 --> 00:54:45,462
And then while you're trying to deliberate on who did what wrong, they've stolen everything and killed everyone.

655
00:54:46,382 --> 00:54:46,922
Yeah.

656
00:54:47,042 --> 00:54:48,902
And that's what we're living in now.

657
00:54:48,982 --> 00:54:49,642
And it sucks.

658
00:54:50,842 --> 00:54:50,962
Yeah.

659
00:54:51,382 --> 00:54:54,482
So now let me just let me just have you.

660
00:54:54,482 --> 00:55:10,422
Can I just slightly reframe? Because I think you don't get how I view the world. I think we live in Ancapistan, and I think it's unfortunate that we're not defending ourselves properly because we're being attacked all the time.

661
00:55:10,422 --> 00:55:16,462
But that does not change the fact that we cannot not live in Ankapistan.

662
00:55:17,642 --> 00:55:21,682
The only principle that can be justified is the non-aggression principle.

663
00:55:21,842 --> 00:55:25,762
And you can call it theoretical all day long and that it doesn't apply to reality.

664
00:55:27,282 --> 00:55:30,362
Just as I said, it's the same as 2 plus 2 equals 4.

665
00:55:30,722 --> 00:55:33,422
And to apply that to reality...

666
00:55:32,989 --> 00:55:38,509
a noun like two plus two apples equals four apples, then all of a sudden the mathematics

667
00:55:38,509 --> 00:55:42,989
is reality. And the same is true for the praxeological principles.

668
00:55:43,789 --> 00:55:47,209
Right. As long as your interpretation of the rules is the same as other people's

669
00:55:47,209 --> 00:55:48,089
interpretation of the rules.

670
00:55:48,229 --> 00:55:52,789
No, they're true regardless. That's the whole point. No, no, no. They're true regardless.

671
00:55:52,989 --> 00:55:59,769
That's the whole point. They do not rely on other people's opinions. That's the whole

672
00:55:59,769 --> 00:56:05,109
beauty of the system and they do not require empirical evidence in order to use mathematics

673
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:10,449
you need to be able to interpret what the statements that mathematics says in a way that

674
00:56:10,449 --> 00:56:14,849
other people are going to interpret it if you if you're using the rules of mathematics in a way

675
00:56:14,849 --> 00:56:20,489
that nobody else is using then it's totally useless yeah but two plus two apples is still

676
00:56:20,489 --> 00:56:26,269
going to equal four apples regardless of people's interpretation and language i can think of an

677
00:56:26,269 --> 00:56:32,469
interpretation in which two plus two apples does not equal four apples okay there's rule again so

678
00:56:32,469 --> 00:56:36,989
like you're assuming that other people are interpreting the world in the same way that

679
00:56:36,989 --> 00:56:41,569
you're interpreting the world but that's not always true people people have have all sorts

680
00:56:41,569 --> 00:56:46,529
of different ways of interpreting things no they come to a common understanding of those things

681
00:56:46,529 --> 00:56:52,869
it's not your rule system is not going to apply to reality it's not rules language and if nobody

682
00:56:52,869 --> 00:56:58,349
else speaks your language, then it's a useless language. What I'm assuming is that human action,

683
00:56:58,609 --> 00:57:03,749
deliberate, purposeful action is the bridge between our subjective, what we think about

684
00:57:03,749 --> 00:57:08,029
things and how we see the world and objective reality. It's the bridge between the two.

685
00:57:08,029 --> 00:57:17,969
Property and action, using means to acquire ends, to reach ends, is the bridge. That is the thing

686
00:57:17,969 --> 00:57:21,249
that binds the two realms together.

687
00:57:21,989 --> 00:57:25,969
So therefore, studying that is the most crucial thing

688
00:57:25,969 --> 00:57:30,469
to understanding how people can organize each other and find...

689
00:57:30,469 --> 00:57:32,629
What I'm saying is if other people have different goals

690
00:57:32,629 --> 00:57:34,309
from the rest of society,

691
00:57:34,469 --> 00:57:37,249
then you're still not going to be able to coordinate with those people.

692
00:57:38,189 --> 00:57:39,369
I know, I know.

693
00:57:39,849 --> 00:57:42,089
I'm failing to do that all the time.

694
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:42,949
And so are you.

695
00:57:43,189 --> 00:57:46,149
Like, we have a lot of people that we have different opinions with

696
00:57:46,149 --> 00:57:50,069
And people, we hate what they do, but we can't influence it.

697
00:57:50,389 --> 00:57:52,529
Right. So let me extend an olive branch.

698
00:57:52,629 --> 00:57:59,229
I think there is actually a resolution to this conversation because I had this exact argument in my head over many years.

699
00:57:59,729 --> 00:58:04,769
And my resolution is if you read The Sovereign Individual, the book, I think it explains what the resolution is.

700
00:58:04,769 --> 00:58:10,449
The resolution is that in times where so you have this this concept of economics of violence.

701
00:58:11,069 --> 00:58:14,349
And according to the book, you know, it flips every 500 years.

702
00:58:14,349 --> 00:58:17,769
And sometimes offense is more efficient than defense.

703
00:58:18,109 --> 00:58:21,029
And then you get a society that's very, very offensive and very, very violent.

704
00:58:21,429 --> 00:58:26,429
And then you get central banks and you get gunpowder and you get basically invading is cheaper than defending.

705
00:58:26,989 --> 00:58:28,789
And then after 500 years, it flips again.

706
00:58:29,009 --> 00:58:35,409
And then you see a lot of castles, you know, and you see a lot of decentralization of political power and you see a lot of sort of fragmentation of the state.

707
00:58:36,089 --> 00:58:40,969
And so what they say is that Bitcoin is going to bring about this this this flipping.

708
00:58:40,969 --> 00:58:41,669
Right. Yeah.

709
00:58:41,669 --> 00:58:48,809
They don't specifically say, great book, but they don't specifically say Bitcoin, right? Because it's written in 1999.

710
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:52,749
Right, but they say, yes, exactly. It was amazing that they wrote that in 1997.

711
00:58:52,749 --> 00:59:10,869
Yeah, something like Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah. And I use this analogy all the time. I talk about, you know, a spear and a sword and then eventually a shield and then a bigger sword and then a knight in armor and then a gun and then castle walls.

712
00:59:10,869 --> 00:59:13,269
We flipped back and forth and then atomic bombs.

713
00:59:13,489 --> 00:59:16,389
And now we're all, we've been stuck in this offense,

714
00:59:16,829 --> 00:59:20,069
Mexican standoff between states for a very long time.

715
00:59:20,069 --> 00:59:23,189
And all of a sudden, yeah, I had to talk about this too,

716
00:59:23,269 --> 00:59:26,649
like the similarities between Oppenheimer and Satoshi Nakamoto,

717
00:59:26,889 --> 00:59:32,189
because I think what they both did was find a way to use the power of physics

718
00:59:32,189 --> 00:59:34,549
to change human incentive structures.

719
00:59:35,029 --> 00:59:38,629
It's just that one did it very violently and very aggressively

720
00:59:38,629 --> 00:59:40,569
and the other very defensively.

721
00:59:40,569 --> 00:59:59,069
And I think that that's the beauty. And if that is this flippening that it promises to be like it, that's why I'm so fucking bullish on Bitcoin, because I love this. So I think we're very close here. And I think we have similar views. I think we have semantic differences for some things and mainly.

722
00:59:59,069 --> 01:00:04,429
Yeah. So so this is the problem, right? The problem that I have, and it's the core problem.

723
01:00:04,589 --> 01:00:16,569
The difference that I have with core devs is is this view is, again, after many years of hanging out with anarcho-capitalists, I realized that they didn't actually have a mechanism for implementing their ideas.

724
01:00:16,949 --> 01:00:21,489
Their mechanism was always, oh, we're going to educate people. We're just going to we're just going to get the word out.

725
01:00:21,489 --> 01:00:26,329
And then everybody is just like the scales are going to fall from everyone's eyes and they're going to realize, oh, the government is a big fraud.

726
01:00:26,329 --> 01:00:29,469
You know, Larkin Rose talking about, you know, the what is it?

727
01:00:29,469 --> 01:00:32,729
The most dangerous superstition that somebody has authority over you.

728
01:00:32,809 --> 01:00:35,089
People are just going to realize that authority is a bad thing.

729
01:00:35,089 --> 01:00:36,989
And it's like, no, that's not going to happen.

730
01:00:37,149 --> 01:00:41,969
And the reason why that's not going to happen is because the the incentives of the current

731
01:00:41,969 --> 01:00:46,929
technological regime are forcing everybody to to continue this game that we're playing

732
01:00:46,929 --> 01:00:47,849
this very violent game.

733
01:00:48,249 --> 01:00:53,109
But if and this is why I'm such a big Bitcoiner, if Bitcoin becomes the reserve asset of the

734
01:00:53,109 --> 01:00:57,169
world, now we are no longer going to have a fiat standard, which causes violence. We're going to

735
01:00:57,169 --> 01:01:03,269
have a Bitcoin standard, which causes peace. And then maybe we can have the anarcho-capitalist

736
01:01:03,269 --> 01:01:09,129
utopia, otherwise known as Anakapistan. I think that's beautiful. And it's so close to what I

737
01:01:09,129 --> 01:01:15,549
think. One of my earliest semi-viral tweets was like, being a libertarian without being a

738
01:01:15,549 --> 01:01:23,609
bitcoiner is futile and i still believe that like exactly exactly but i can still be an anarcho

739
01:01:23,609 --> 01:01:30,129
capitalist at heart and have an austrian view of the world but i also understand that for me to have

740
01:01:30,129 --> 01:01:36,589
any more freedoms for myself in my life i need to be a bitcoiner there's no other way like and i've

741
01:01:36,589 --> 01:01:41,589
i've fully accepted that for a decade now and that's i i love it yeah and as you and as you

742
01:01:41,589 --> 01:01:48,069
I completely agree that anarcho-capitalism and the non-aggression principle are good, as you say, lenses through which to view the world.

743
01:01:48,209 --> 01:01:52,689
I think that's useful because then you can find other people who are also viewing the world through that lens.

744
01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:57,029
And you can be very good friends with those people and you can cultivate those relationships and those become those bear fruit.

745
01:01:57,029 --> 01:02:11,529
And we're on the same page. But it's like when we argued in that thread, I think we had like a disagreement about the word fee because I cannot view a tax as a fee because a tax, a fee to me, to me is consensual.

746
01:02:11,589 --> 01:02:25,289
So, again, I think that you and I already agree that we are already living in Anikapistan, right? So if you look at Anikapistan, Anikapistan has private security agencies instead of public security agencies. And that's kind of the only difference.

747
01:02:26,009 --> 01:02:33,809
More than regular police officers, actually. Around the world, there are more security guards than police officers, like private police.

748
01:02:33,829 --> 01:02:34,709
Yes, but that's irrelevant.

749
01:02:35,289 --> 01:02:37,429
No, I think it's very relevant.

750
01:02:37,609 --> 01:02:39,349
Explain why. I'll explain why it's irrelevant.

751
01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:43,629
It's irrelevant because those security guards are operating within monopolies on violence.

752
01:02:43,629 --> 01:02:51,869
So security guards, like a security guard in Texas is answering to the police force of the state.

753
01:02:51,869 --> 01:02:55,769
And that police force is answering to the state police.

754
01:02:55,809 --> 01:02:56,189
Yeah, yeah.

755
01:02:56,289 --> 01:02:58,749
But I meant answering to the national police force.

756
01:02:59,149 --> 01:02:59,609
Absolutely.

757
01:02:59,849 --> 01:03:01,449
At the international level, we have Ancapistan.

758
01:03:01,709 --> 01:03:04,609
At the international level, things are completely anarchic.

759
01:03:05,129 --> 01:03:06,849
So we already live in Ancapistan.

760
01:03:06,849 --> 01:03:09,769
It's just that things are way more centralized than everybody wants.

761
01:03:10,389 --> 01:03:12,729
It's just like the criminal gangs are too big.

762
01:03:13,049 --> 01:03:14,769
That's the only problem, really.

763
01:03:14,989 --> 01:03:20,169
And that's why Trump can go and just pick Maduro out of the country and stuff like that.

764
01:03:20,589 --> 01:03:22,829
Because that's an ANCAP move.

765
01:03:24,709 --> 01:03:26,709
Well, and again, that's what happens.

766
01:03:26,749 --> 01:03:29,109
That's what happens with competing security organizations.

767
01:03:29,489 --> 01:03:33,789
If you have the big dog, which is the U.S., and you have the small dog, which is Venezuela,

768
01:03:33,789 --> 01:03:36,249
the big dog is going to push the small dog around.

769
01:03:36,249 --> 01:03:58,789
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I totally agree with that. It still doesn't justify it. What I wanted to point out was that the fact that there are more private security guards hints at that there's absolutely market demand for that and that people are willing to pay to be secured against whatever the criminal organization on top cannot take care of.

770
01:03:58,789 --> 01:04:08,029
Right. But so what I'm saying is the difference between Ancapistan and what we have now is is immaterial, except that Ancaps want everything to be more decentralized than they are now.

771
01:04:08,469 --> 01:04:22,551
So like for instance so they say oh we want we want everybody to pay a private security agency to secure their property rights Right So like you have these defense you know you have these dispute resolution organizations and you have these private security agencies

772
01:04:22,551 --> 01:04:27,551
Or cities or even countries, like they could all be consensual.

773
01:04:28,331 --> 01:04:34,071
If I can leave whenever I want and if it has sound money, then I have no problem with that.

774
01:04:34,251 --> 01:04:35,771
Then a country can be any size.

775
01:04:35,771 --> 01:04:41,011
If you own property in Ancapistan, you're still paying property taxes.

776
01:04:41,291 --> 01:04:42,711
The only difference is that it's not a property tax.

777
01:04:42,711 --> 01:04:43,591
No, you're paying fees.

778
01:04:43,691 --> 01:04:44,511
It's a property fee.

779
01:04:44,871 --> 01:04:44,891
Exactly.

780
01:04:45,171 --> 01:04:45,391
Yeah.

781
01:04:45,391 --> 01:04:45,591
Yeah.

782
01:04:45,871 --> 01:04:46,331
Yeah.

783
01:04:46,871 --> 01:04:54,491
So what I'm saying is, if I consent to pay my property tax on my property today, right

784
01:04:54,491 --> 01:04:58,511
now, if I'm already consenting, then I already live in Ancapistan as far as I'm concerned.

785
01:04:59,471 --> 01:04:59,951
Yeah.

786
01:05:00,031 --> 01:05:02,671
And that's good for you if you do consent.

787
01:05:02,671 --> 01:05:07,451
But I'm saying that you couldn't live where you live without paying that.

788
01:05:07,551 --> 01:05:10,491
You have no competing fee of service.

789
01:05:11,071 --> 01:05:11,151
Right.

790
01:05:11,331 --> 01:05:13,031
The tax is not on living here.

791
01:05:13,191 --> 01:05:14,671
The tax is on owning property here.

792
01:05:14,911 --> 01:05:19,211
And that's appropriate in my opinion because the government is protecting my property rights.

793
01:05:19,591 --> 01:05:22,711
Well, I would say it means that you don't want to defend me.

794
01:05:23,291 --> 01:05:26,831
I would say that it proves that it's not your property.

795
01:05:27,371 --> 01:05:30,811
You're living there by permission.

796
01:05:30,811 --> 01:05:36,531
You have the permission to live in that house because they decide what it costs you to live there.

797
01:05:37,011 --> 01:05:37,191
Exactly.

798
01:05:37,391 --> 01:05:40,591
So ANCAPs should not be complaining that they have to pay property taxes.

799
01:05:40,851 --> 01:05:42,611
They should be complaining that, well.

800
01:05:43,331 --> 01:05:46,231
Well, I wouldn't call it owning the house.

801
01:05:46,251 --> 01:05:47,651
Things are too expensive, right?

802
01:05:47,711 --> 01:05:49,671
I think people just think that taxes are too high.

803
01:05:49,771 --> 01:05:54,811
I think everybody would be totally fine paying fees to a security service if the fees were reasonable.

804
01:05:55,011 --> 01:05:59,231
But I think that most people feel that their taxes are higher than the benefits that they're getting.

805
01:05:59,951 --> 01:06:00,431
Absolutely.

806
01:06:00,811 --> 01:06:06,971
but I don't think they can be fair or low if they aren't consensual fees rather than taxes.

807
01:06:07,371 --> 01:06:08,231
But they are consensual.

808
01:06:08,511 --> 01:06:11,811
If I didn't consent to the tax, I would buy property in a different jurisdiction.

809
01:06:12,351 --> 01:06:14,431
So they are completely 100% consensual.

810
01:06:14,431 --> 01:06:15,771
That is not my definition.

811
01:06:16,071 --> 01:06:21,471
If you buy property and you are ignoring the fact that you're going to need to pay property taxes,

812
01:06:22,251 --> 01:06:24,951
you're an arbitrarian, or you're a communist.

813
01:06:25,071 --> 01:06:28,111
You're just trying to get somebody else to provide services to you for free.

814
01:06:29,351 --> 01:06:30,351
No, no, no, no.

815
01:06:30,351 --> 01:06:36,011
So you're misinterpreting what I'm saying because I'm saying that you don't really own the house.

816
01:06:36,091 --> 01:06:37,231
You never bought the house.

817
01:06:37,331 --> 01:06:42,451
You bought a permission to live in it for a certain – and you don't know when they will change the rules.

818
01:06:42,451 --> 01:06:45,871
If they increase the tax, you didn't agree to that.

819
01:06:46,531 --> 01:06:53,231
So what I'm saying is if libertarians just viewed the government as the actual owner of the land, then everybody would be fine with everything.

820
01:06:53,851 --> 01:06:54,711
No, no, no.

821
01:06:54,711 --> 01:07:00,651
At the moment, there's this sort of perception of fraud because you bought the title to the land.

822
01:07:00,791 --> 01:07:02,851
And so you feel like, oh, I'm the owner of the land.

823
01:07:03,351 --> 01:07:03,871
But you're not.

824
01:07:04,311 --> 01:07:05,951
But de facto, in reality, you're not.

825
01:07:06,071 --> 01:07:07,351
The government is the owner of the land.

826
01:07:07,691 --> 01:07:18,071
However, if the government just came out and said that and they were like, we're renting parcels of land for $1,000 a year, but we're not going to pay property taxes, libertarians would be fine with that.

827
01:07:18,171 --> 01:07:18,971
It's the same thing.

828
01:07:18,971 --> 01:07:25,431
if you want to find local bitcoin communities other bitcoiners bitcoin merchants and bitcoin

829
01:07:25,431 --> 01:07:30,991
events in your area there's no better way to do that than through the orange pill app wait a minute

830
01:07:30,991 --> 01:07:36,891
it's not the orange pill app anymore it's club orange club orange is an omni app that includes

831
01:07:36,891 --> 01:07:43,791
a lot of features including a list of events a wallet where you can send and receive sats over

832
01:07:43,791 --> 01:07:49,171
the Lightning Network. You can even geosap areas so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in

833
01:07:49,171 --> 01:07:54,411
one single area. You can also tap sap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I

834
01:07:54,411 --> 01:07:59,911
don't believe exists anywhere else. Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all around

835
01:07:59,911 --> 01:08:05,791
the world. So go to cluborange.org and sign up today. You won't regret it. It's not just a gay

836
01:08:05,791 --> 01:08:13,111
dating app. It's everything else too. You can use it. Forget about that. Go and sign up. Club Orange.

837
01:08:13,791 --> 01:08:18,471
If you want to really secure your Bitcoin, you should check out the Bitcoin Advisor.

838
01:08:18,871 --> 01:08:23,591
They have never lost a single set and they take care of your stack together with you.

839
01:08:23,791 --> 01:08:25,631
They can't use your stack. That's impossible.

840
01:08:26,071 --> 01:08:28,271
But they can help you with inheritance planning.

841
01:08:28,371 --> 01:08:30,391
They can help you huddle the Bitcoin long term.

842
01:08:30,391 --> 01:08:34,251
So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more and brush your teeth.

843
01:08:34,771 --> 01:08:37,351
Let's get into the merch conversation again, shall we?

844
01:08:37,411 --> 01:08:38,771
Yeah, we will go out there.

845
01:08:39,011 --> 01:08:41,131
We're going to go in circles here, I'm afraid.

846
01:08:41,131 --> 01:08:49,671
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, where are we going into that then? Is there anywhere else in that that you think is super important to point out?

847
01:08:50,451 --> 01:08:52,051
Yeah, I mean...

848
01:08:52,051 --> 01:09:03,031
Okay, here's one. 1330. Knut thinks UTXO sharing is not important. He's incorrect in this. It's very important, but filtering spam has nothing to do with it. So why is that important?

849
01:09:03,031 --> 01:09:14,131
yes um you said something like uh um what is it yeah utxo sharing merch said scaling bitcoin to

850
01:09:14,131 --> 01:09:19,151
the world is important which i agree with um and i hope that you agree with um absolutely now that

851
01:09:19,151 --> 01:09:23,311
we've both said you know that that uh bitcoin success as a medium of exchange is important to

852
01:09:23,311 --> 01:09:29,471
bitcoin success overall so utxo sharing is how bitcoin scales and merch was correct to point out

853
01:09:29,471 --> 01:09:31,351
that Lightning is a UTXO sharing scheme.

854
01:09:31,471 --> 01:09:32,791
If you have, do you have a Lightning node

855
01:09:32,791 --> 01:09:33,551
or a Lightning channel?

856
01:09:33,631 --> 01:09:34,131
Yeah, yeah.

857
01:09:34,891 --> 01:09:36,611
So a Lightning channel is a bilateral agreement

858
01:09:36,611 --> 01:09:41,131
where you're sharing a UTXO with your counterparty.

859
01:09:41,791 --> 01:09:44,531
And so Lightning is a very basic UTXO sharing scheme

860
01:09:44,531 --> 01:09:46,671
where you can share this UTXO

861
01:09:46,671 --> 01:09:48,831
as a two of two multi-sig with your counterparty.

862
01:09:48,871 --> 01:09:50,371
And you can have a bunch of these together

863
01:09:50,371 --> 01:09:52,891
and that forms the Lightning node.

864
01:09:52,891 --> 01:09:53,171
Yeah, yeah.

865
01:09:53,551 --> 01:09:56,651
But there's more complex forms of UTXO sharing

866
01:09:56,651 --> 01:09:58,571
like ARK and up from there, right?

867
01:09:58,571 --> 01:10:02,931
infinitely many ways you can share UTXOs with other people. And those are really how we scale

868
01:10:02,931 --> 01:10:08,671
Bitcoin because those are how we make effectively, you know, full reserve, full reserve Bitcoin,

869
01:10:08,871 --> 01:10:14,091
full reserve unilateral exit Bitcoin, not banks exactly, what do they call perfect,

870
01:10:14,091 --> 01:10:19,991
perfect money substitutes? You know, these things that, that, that seamlessly substitute for Bitcoin,

871
01:10:20,111 --> 01:10:23,591
like Lightning and ARK and things like that. I think it's important for Bitcoiners to draw

872
01:10:23,591 --> 01:10:29,931
a distinction between those types of constructions and things like Citria, which are one of N-Trust

873
01:10:29,931 --> 01:10:35,011
model, which are not fully trustless. Because if you start building things that are not fully

874
01:10:35,011 --> 01:10:42,531
trustless and you put a majority of the capital into those systems, then you get exactly what

875
01:10:42,531 --> 01:10:47,551
happened to gold, right? Basically, everybody treats the paper version of the gold as the real

876
01:10:47,551 --> 01:10:53,031
gold. And once you have that, then you have this sort of subversion and you no longer have sound

877
01:10:53,031 --> 01:10:58,511
money so this is super interesting because like some philosophical questions here then

878
01:10:58,511 --> 01:11:05,891
and this is wonderful to be talking to a developer about this because uh if now segwit segwit enabled

879
01:11:05,891 --> 01:11:11,611
a lot of spam let's just say that or the segwit got implemented and the spam happened that's

880
01:11:11,611 --> 01:11:19,171
empirical you know yes so segwit slightly encouraged more spamming um but there there

881
01:11:19,171 --> 01:11:22,231
There have always been ways of cramming data into the Bitcoin block.

882
01:11:22,231 --> 01:11:22,771
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

883
01:11:23,991 --> 01:11:25,431
There's always been ways of doing that.

884
01:11:25,531 --> 01:11:27,351
And the only way to fight that is by filtering it.

885
01:11:27,811 --> 01:11:33,851
So the fact that it's slightly cheaper, yeah, may have affected sort of the optics around inscriptions when they came up.

886
01:11:34,511 --> 01:11:39,391
OK, so let me do an abstract example instead, like a thought experiment.

887
01:11:39,391 --> 01:11:43,891
If now, like, so we're living in the timeline we're living in.

888
01:11:43,891 --> 01:11:47,351
And in this timeline, Segwit was implemented, Taproot was implemented.

889
01:11:48,331 --> 01:11:51,171
The Lightning Network happened before Taproot was implemented.

890
01:11:51,391 --> 01:11:52,691
But Lightning happened there.

891
01:11:52,991 --> 01:11:55,411
Everyone's happy because now Lightning exists.

892
01:11:55,511 --> 01:11:56,291
It's fucking awesome.

893
01:11:56,931 --> 01:11:57,671
We're doing that.

894
01:11:57,771 --> 01:11:59,471
Most of it is custodial, but who cares?

895
01:11:59,571 --> 01:12:04,471
It's still way better than banking, fractional reserve banking, so on and so forth.

896
01:12:04,471 --> 01:12:07,911
But also 2023, spam goes up.

897
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:12,411
Did you say we're okay with it being custodial?

898
01:12:12,491 --> 01:12:13,231
Because I'm not okay with that.

899
01:12:13,791 --> 01:12:14,191
No, no, no.

900
01:12:14,211 --> 01:12:16,931
But most people are okay with using custodial lightning.

901
01:12:17,151 --> 01:12:19,111
I think Bitcoiners should not be okay with that.

902
01:12:19,251 --> 01:12:20,171
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

903
01:12:20,211 --> 01:12:21,791
No, no, I can agree with that.

904
01:12:21,791 --> 01:12:30,631
So we're living in this world where Bitcoin is fantastic, but we have this spam issue that happened February 2023.

905
01:12:30,631 --> 01:12:48,791
So let's say if I pose an alternative timeline where SegWit was worked on for longer and Taproot 2 and weren't implemented, but were more carefully implemented, and we wouldn't have the Lightning Network, but we wouldn't have the spam.

906
01:12:49,171 --> 01:12:52,910
Would you have preferred that timeline to the one you're living in now?

907
01:12:54,111 --> 01:13:08,032
I don think so Yeah so there is this that a popular view on the not side oh well you know why didn we just take longer to do it And then we would have come up with something better And that maybe true But that ignores the fact that

908
01:13:08,032 --> 01:13:13,692
by implementing it, we were able to collect real world data on whether it would work and how it

909
01:13:13,692 --> 01:13:18,512
would fail. So, you know, at the end of the day, you have to do things. If you never do anything

910
01:13:18,512 --> 01:13:23,272
and you just, uh, you just keep theorizing and you never apply your ideas in the real world,

911
01:13:23,272 --> 01:13:25,932
then you're never going to find out whether there's those ideas actually.

912
01:13:25,932 --> 01:13:28,172
If you never fuck around, you'll never find out.

913
01:13:28,732 --> 01:13:33,112
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Some fucking around. Yes, that's, that's, that's beautiful. Some fucking

914
01:13:33,112 --> 01:13:36,672
around is, is, is necessary. You know, you, you have to kind of experiment with things.

915
01:13:36,672 --> 01:13:41,952
otherwise you're never going to figure out what the real solutions are and you

916
01:13:41,952 --> 01:13:46,452
know so I think that the correct you know the the slow and team slow and steady as

917
01:13:46,452 --> 01:13:49,752
they're calling it on the internet I'm on team slow and steady I'm on I'm not on

918
01:13:49,752 --> 01:13:53,112
team stop right I think there actually are like actual ossification is I don't

919
01:13:53,112 --> 01:13:57,972
find those people to be serious I think no me neither yeah I don't think

920
01:13:57,972 --> 01:14:04,452
can also fight I agree yeah there's always going to be a slightly different

921
01:14:04,452 --> 01:14:11,732
different version of the rules that, you know, in the event of a fork would actually accrue more

922
01:14:11,732 --> 01:14:16,492
value in the free market. So there's always going to be, and that's because reality is always

923
01:14:16,492 --> 01:14:21,872
changing, right? So this is evolution, right? This is why biological forms of life, you know,

924
01:14:21,872 --> 01:14:25,832
are constantly evolving because the environment is constantly changing.

925
01:14:26,132 --> 01:14:31,672
And how could anyone ever prove that it had ossified? It's unprovable. You can't prove a

926
01:14:31,672 --> 01:14:37,072
negative right there's still people people may choose other rules right yeah it's like saying

927
01:14:37,072 --> 01:14:42,172
you know evolution should ossify it's like okay well no and second of all that's impossible like

928
01:14:42,172 --> 01:14:47,612
if you tried if you tried to do that you would end up destroying everything so just just like

929
01:14:47,612 --> 01:14:54,172
let's go slow and steady you know the trodulites the trodulites tried that or the cockroaches

930
01:14:54,172 --> 01:15:00,032
like for a very long time yeah anyway yes there there are yes exactly like bitcoin could be seen

931
01:15:00,032 --> 01:15:04,512
like a cockroach. You know, it's very, very, very durable, you know, very, very hard to kill.

932
01:15:05,152 --> 01:15:08,952
But it's still it's still evolving slowly, you know, or I would like to see it more like humans.

933
01:15:08,952 --> 01:15:13,472
You know, humans have been around for a while, but it's not impossible that we that we're just

934
01:15:13,472 --> 01:15:18,532
going to that we're going to keep evolving. Right. Like it seems. Well, anyway, that's another whole

935
01:15:18,532 --> 01:15:22,652
conversation. But yeah, no, Bitcoin, Bitcoin should not ossify with the current rule set.

936
01:15:22,812 --> 01:15:26,752
If Bitcoin ossifies with the current rule set, it will inevitably be captured. Right. Because it

937
01:15:26,752 --> 01:15:31,152
doesn't work properly as a medium of exchange. And so there's no reason to expect it to perform

938
01:15:31,152 --> 01:15:34,852
better than gold in this respect. It will just get captured exactly the same as gold. So we have to

939
01:15:34,852 --> 01:15:38,212
keep scaling it. We have to make sure that it works as a medium of exchange for the world,

940
01:15:38,532 --> 01:15:42,952
for a global user base. Because if we don't, then there's no reason to expect Bitcoin to be

941
01:15:42,952 --> 01:15:47,592
more valuable than gold. There's no reason to expect people who are looking for a good store

942
01:15:47,592 --> 01:15:53,932
value to buy Bitcoin instead of gold. No, absolutely agree. No disagreement there.

943
01:15:53,932 --> 01:16:20,132
Yeah, we were talking about UTXO sharing. Yeah. So, so, so, so Merch is correct. We, he said, oh, you know, Bitcoin has this flexible scripting language and Satoshi made this flexible scripting language so that we could evolve Bitcoin and have it do more interesting things. And I completely 100% agree with that. But, but Satoshi also made mempool filters. So he, he, he left the consensus rules perfectly flexible and expressive so that people could build whatever they want.

944
01:16:20,132 --> 01:16:31,772
But he also implemented mempool filters so that if people start doing stupid shit, if people start building things that are more destructive than constructive, then we can filter those things out.

945
01:16:32,472 --> 01:16:39,112
So mempool filters are a very, very fundamentally useful thing that Satoshi built in from the beginning into the Bitcoin protocol.

946
01:16:39,692 --> 01:16:44,332
And the core devs in the last few years have suddenly decided that mempool filters are no longer useful.

947
01:16:44,712 --> 01:16:47,232
And that's bewildering and concerning.

948
01:16:49,112 --> 01:16:50,072
Yeah, yeah.

949
01:16:50,132 --> 01:16:56,272
um i agree and i still think it's it's strange there's so much that doesn't make sense to me

950
01:16:56,272 --> 01:17:02,032
out of this i can somewhat buy the argument that it's futile but but it's still the answer i've

951
01:17:02,032 --> 01:17:08,752
never gotten a really good straight answer to is why why was it important to increase the fucking

952
01:17:08,752 --> 01:17:15,572
thing right it wasn't and he even said that it wasn't yeah and so no so why did you do it like

953
01:17:15,572 --> 01:17:16,852
I still don't know why.

954
01:17:18,312 --> 01:17:19,052
He's explained.

955
01:17:19,192 --> 01:17:26,872
Merch himself has gone on social media and many different places and argued with lots of people who are less technical than me.

956
01:17:27,052 --> 01:17:28,572
His communication is only one way, right?

957
01:17:28,612 --> 01:17:29,772
He only tells people things.

958
01:17:29,812 --> 01:17:30,532
He doesn't listen.

959
01:17:30,772 --> 01:17:32,092
And so where was I going with that?

960
01:17:33,912 --> 01:17:35,232
I was answering your question.

961
01:17:36,672 --> 01:17:37,992
Shots fired, I guess.

962
01:17:38,152 --> 01:17:39,112
Okay, here's one.

963
01:17:39,352 --> 01:17:41,572
I was going to steal man their position.

964
01:17:41,572 --> 01:17:49,352
Okay, so their position is that leaving the opperturn filter in is bad for UTXO set bloat and mining centralization.

965
01:17:49,852 --> 01:17:52,912
And so as we've just talked about, it does neither of those things.

966
01:17:53,472 --> 01:18:01,892
And in the case of UTXO set bloat, it probably makes it a lot worse because as we've seen, BRC20, which was a result of not filtering inscriptions, caused 8 gigabytes of UTXO set bloat.

967
01:18:01,932 --> 01:18:10,632
Whereas Citria, the system that sort of prompted them to remove the opperturn limit, was 64 bytes, which is never expected to occur.

968
01:18:11,272 --> 01:18:18,272
So they were mostly like, oh, UTXO set load is a huge problem when it's Citria who needs us to get rid of the off return limit.

969
01:18:18,852 --> 01:18:26,592
But not when Bitcoin node runners who are struggling to sync Raspberry Pi nodes need us to help limit the UTXO set size.

970
01:18:27,792 --> 01:18:32,212
Yeah, and here's a point that says Citria needed 144 bytes, not 100,000.

971
01:18:33,052 --> 01:18:34,052
Exactly, exactly.

972
01:18:34,592 --> 01:18:38,052
So as I said, you know, appeal from laziness, you know, argument from laziness.

973
01:18:38,052 --> 01:18:43,212
You know, they were like, oh, well, we don't want to have to keep having this fight every six months.

974
01:18:43,272 --> 01:18:45,612
So we're just going to completely rip out the filter.

975
01:18:46,412 --> 01:18:50,272
It's something sensible like having a discussion about whether to raise the limit.

976
01:18:51,452 --> 01:18:53,552
Yeah, here's another one.

977
01:18:53,672 --> 01:18:57,052
Knut says that spammer calls spammers users.

978
01:18:57,392 --> 01:18:58,552
I apologize for that.

979
01:18:58,652 --> 01:19:00,232
I don't think they are users.

980
01:19:00,392 --> 01:19:01,552
I think they're abusers.

981
01:19:02,172 --> 01:19:05,732
Yeah, there's a much quote here that could be good to address.

982
01:19:05,732 --> 01:19:10,692
this highlights that the 80 byte op return limit has downsides.

983
01:19:10,692 --> 01:19:14,912
Please explain the downside of 64 bytes that could go,

984
01:19:15,232 --> 01:19:18,052
but are never expected to go into the UTXO set.

985
01:19:19,152 --> 01:19:21,212
Right. So that's what I was just saying right now.

986
01:19:22,752 --> 01:19:28,492
Citria built this rollup that uses 64 bytes in the UTXO set,

987
01:19:30,272 --> 01:19:34,772
because they needed 144 bytes of arbitrary data in a single transaction,

988
01:19:34,772 --> 01:19:39,832
which isn't allowed the bitcoin network came to an agreement that 80 bytes was the maximum in 2014

989
01:19:39,832 --> 01:19:43,872
and so they were like okay well we need to put 144 bytes in so we're going to put 80 bytes into

990
01:19:43,872 --> 01:19:48,032
an opera turn and we're going to put 64 bytes into fake pub keys which go into the utxo set

991
01:19:48,032 --> 01:19:52,772
this transaction is never expected to occur it's kind of like the justice transaction

992
01:19:52,772 --> 01:19:59,812
in lightning you know it only happens if stuff is really going sideways right if the coordinator is

993
01:19:59,812 --> 01:20:05,952
is executing things wrongly, you know, and basically trying to steal people's money.

994
01:20:06,832 --> 01:20:11,732
So they're basically saying, oh, my God, 64 bytes, which is never expected to occur,

995
01:20:12,452 --> 01:20:17,552
is worth getting rid of this, like, highly popular, highly respected

996
01:20:17,552 --> 01:20:23,492
op return limit to limit transaction, to limit arbitrary data storage on Bitcoin

997
01:20:23,492 --> 01:20:25,112
and keep Bitcoin as good money.

998
01:20:25,492 --> 01:20:28,292
They're basically saying, you know, like, the whole rationale was bullshit.

999
01:20:28,292 --> 01:20:31,492
And the thing is, I'm kind of the only one who knows why it's bullshit.

1000
01:20:31,612 --> 01:20:32,872
And this is why they won't talk to me.

1001
01:20:35,272 --> 01:20:41,152
So BAPS, this thing that Citra is pushing, to me, that sounds like complete bullshit.

1002
01:20:41,652 --> 01:20:43,392
What's your opinion on BAPS?

1003
01:20:45,532 --> 01:20:46,592
Same shit, different toilet.

1004
01:20:46,732 --> 01:20:49,932
I mean, it's the same thing that companies have been trying to do.

1005
01:20:50,032 --> 01:20:56,012
I mean, so Vitalik famously left Bitcoin, stopped trying to build Ethereum on Bitcoin in 2014.

1006
01:20:56,012 --> 01:20:57,252
when he...

1007
01:20:57,252 --> 01:20:58,932
He was pushed out, right?

1008
01:20:59,292 --> 01:21:02,172
Well, he said he looked at the situation with Oppurtern

1009
01:21:02,172 --> 01:21:04,572
and realized that the Bitcoin core devs

1010
01:21:04,572 --> 01:21:06,032
were going to be at war with him.

1011
01:21:06,132 --> 01:21:08,012
So he left Bitcoin entirely.

1012
01:21:08,372 --> 01:21:09,352
This is how we win.

1013
01:21:09,352 --> 01:21:10,852
Okay, so he went and built Ethereum.

1014
01:21:12,012 --> 01:21:14,612
Then there's a thing called Rootstock or RSK,

1015
01:21:14,892 --> 01:21:17,772
which, you know, because the Ethereum protocol was popular,

1016
01:21:17,912 --> 01:21:20,192
it used basically JavaScript-like programming.

1017
01:21:20,652 --> 01:21:22,612
And so it was very popular for lazy devs

1018
01:21:22,612 --> 01:21:23,532
who like JavaScript.

1019
01:21:23,892 --> 01:21:25,492
And so they were like, look, we can tinker around

1020
01:21:25,492 --> 01:21:27,032
and have all this fun with Ethereum

1021
01:21:27,032 --> 01:21:28,732
because it uses this language that's very similar

1022
01:21:28,732 --> 01:21:32,452
to JavaScript or very conducive to sort of web style programming.

1023
01:21:32,452 --> 01:21:35,032
That's why they call it web.

1024
01:21:35,032 --> 01:21:48,353
And so there was this idea early on oh we should just instead of having Ethereum be a separate blockchain we should we should make a copy of Ethereum and bolt it onto Bitcoin So that was Rootstock And so they made a federated sidechain and put the Ethereum virtual machine

1025
01:21:48,353 --> 01:21:52,173
in that. And there were a bunch of baps, they didn't call them that, but

1026
01:21:52,173 --> 01:21:56,313
just apps that people built on top of Rootstock, all of which were scams.

1027
01:21:56,893 --> 01:22:00,333
And Rootstock, nobody cares about Rootstock now because obviously it was a scam.

1028
01:22:01,153 --> 01:22:04,273
Maybe not Rootstock itself, but obviously it was misguided.

1029
01:22:04,273 --> 01:22:13,073
It was something that did not need to exist and it effectively only existed in order to enrich the people who were sort of building it.

1030
01:22:13,333 --> 01:22:17,313
Yeah, yeah. But this is what I'm saying. This is back to the Voorhees example.

1031
01:22:17,573 --> 01:22:23,973
Like this is this is pyramids upon pyramids of enabling each other to do like just enabling more and more scams.

1032
01:22:23,973 --> 01:22:33,933
Yeah, the game, if you're trying to start a tech startup, the game in fiat world is how do I get as many VCs to ape in to my startup as possible?

1033
01:22:34,273 --> 01:22:42,173
Well, in late game fiat world, the best way is to just be fraudulent, is to just market

1034
01:22:42,173 --> 01:22:44,913
really well, but not actually have a product that does anything useful.

1035
01:22:45,353 --> 01:22:45,453
Right.

1036
01:22:45,473 --> 01:22:47,953
So that's that's that's that's the name of the game in crypto world.

1037
01:22:48,053 --> 01:22:52,653
You know, in the crypto industry outside of Bitcoin, that's what everyone does.

1038
01:22:52,973 --> 01:22:53,073
Right.

1039
01:22:53,333 --> 01:22:54,693
And so they did that with rootstock.

1040
01:22:54,773 --> 01:22:56,293
And then Citria is the same exact thing.

1041
01:22:56,293 --> 01:23:01,793
Citria is literally rootstock, but with a slightly better pegging mechanism that doesn't

1042
01:23:01,793 --> 01:23:03,793
rely on a federated multisig.

1043
01:23:03,793 --> 01:23:09,453
It relies on a BitVM bridge, which is a one of n trust model instead of a, you know, eight of 15 or whatever.

1044
01:23:10,273 --> 01:23:14,713
But it's like there's pretty much no effective difference for the end user.

1045
01:23:14,813 --> 01:23:18,213
So there's no reason to expect Citria to be successful where rootstock was not.

1046
01:23:19,133 --> 01:23:20,973
So it's a cash grab, right?

1047
01:23:20,993 --> 01:23:27,193
It's just people looking around for a way to raise a bunch of VC money for a blockchain startup.

1048
01:23:27,193 --> 01:23:33,173
And this is what they landed on because now since Casey Rodemore invented inscriptions, now inscriptions are a thing.

1049
01:23:33,793 --> 01:23:34,433
Yeah.

1050
01:23:35,633 --> 01:23:39,933
And since Robin Linus invented BitVM, you know, so they were...

1051
01:23:39,933 --> 01:23:40,213
Yeah, yeah.

1052
01:23:40,833 --> 01:23:45,413
I met him in Prague after we had our conversation, I think.

1053
01:23:45,593 --> 01:23:51,813
Like after, yeah, I met a lot of core side people there at the Trezor event.

1054
01:23:51,953 --> 01:23:53,753
I guess they would be at that event.

1055
01:23:54,013 --> 01:23:57,593
But yeah, let's see where we are here.

1056
01:23:57,693 --> 01:24:02,633
Okay, so let's talk about the proposed forks, 110 and the cat.

1057
01:24:02,633 --> 01:24:07,733
like what are your opinions on those two because i think both of those were suggested after we had

1058
01:24:07,733 --> 01:24:13,833
our last conversation so so let's go in there what's what's your opinion on on on uh bit 110

1059
01:24:13,833 --> 01:24:27,333
um yes bit 110 is just a also known as bit 444 is a uh a proposal to sort of um reject data storage

1060
01:24:27,333 --> 01:24:33,533
strongly at the consensus level it was originally proposed in order to protect node runners against

1061
01:24:33,533 --> 01:24:41,853
um uh like a like a c-sam attack um you know and this is still sort of its its its um

1062
01:24:41,853 --> 01:24:49,933
strongest uh rationale in my opinion um but it sort of uh evolved into a yeah basically just a

1063
01:24:49,933 --> 01:24:53,113
general rejection of the data storage use case which i think is really really useful i think that

1064
01:24:53,113 --> 01:24:57,293
that you know bitcointers should be able to come together and say you know bitcoin is money it's

1065
01:24:57,293 --> 01:24:58,153
It's not data storage.

1066
01:25:00,333 --> 01:25:05,673
And Bitpoint 10, in my opinion, does this just about as well as anything I can imagine.

1067
01:25:05,933 --> 01:25:12,533
So, you know, we've been going in circles over, you know, what's going to be the next consensus change for the last few years.

1068
01:25:12,533 --> 01:25:26,613
And it seems like something conservative like this, something that solves some of the problems that were caused by SegWit and Taproot by the prior softworks, is probably the next best candidate for a consensus change.

1069
01:25:27,293 --> 01:25:30,273
So I think, yeah, I'm a big supporter of BIP444.

1070
01:25:30,993 --> 01:25:33,273
Yeah, you have it in your handle.

1071
01:25:33,893 --> 01:25:34,133
Yes.

1072
01:25:34,993 --> 01:25:35,173
Yeah.

1073
01:25:35,613 --> 01:25:37,913
And the cat is kind of interesting.

1074
01:25:38,173 --> 01:25:41,033
It's a lot more complex than BIP444.

1075
01:25:44,473 --> 01:25:49,753
And it's a lot more like it kind of changes the social contract of Bitcoin a little bit.

1076
01:25:50,193 --> 01:25:54,973
I mean, obviously, you know, as we were saying earlier, if Bitcoiners decide to activate it, you know, then it activates.

1077
01:25:54,973 --> 01:26:07,153
you know i mean so so the cat is is is much less mature than before for for bit44 already has

1078
01:26:07,153 --> 01:26:12,653
an activation client uh already published so um like i think it makes sense to just support that

1079
01:26:12,653 --> 01:26:17,993
and activate that uh since it's a you know it's a much more simple change it's very easy to review

1080
01:26:17,993 --> 01:26:25,453
it's it's ready to go you know let's turn it on um whereas with the cat you know it needs to be

1081
01:26:25,453 --> 01:26:32,173
developed further into uh into an actual piece of software that people can run and uh it's pretty

1082
01:26:32,173 --> 01:26:38,333
doubtful that that would happen soon but what i really like about the cat is that uh i don't know

1083
01:26:38,333 --> 01:26:44,273
if you noticed pretty much right after it was proposed spam went down all of the spammers went

1084
01:26:44,273 --> 01:26:50,073
away like i know that's why i loved it so much because it's it's regardless of if it's implemented

1085
01:26:50,073 --> 01:26:56,413
or not just the risk of something like that being implemented is fucking up their incentives and it's

1086
01:26:56,413 --> 01:27:02,573
all about incentives i i love i love it like we're not we're not gonna take it that's that's the

1087
01:27:02,573 --> 01:27:08,253
message it sent and it's wonderful right oh by the way my my power just went out so i'm on battery

1088
01:27:08,253 --> 01:27:11,973
so i'm not sure how long this is all right yeah yeah we've been going for one and a half hours i

1089
01:27:11,973 --> 01:27:16,873
think we should round out i just wanted to i just wanted to reiterate the point that merch says that

1090
01:27:16,873 --> 01:27:22,093
there's no way to fight spam and the cat demonstrates why this is wrong because all we

1091
01:27:22,093 --> 01:27:26,673
have to do is talk about breaking their protocols and they leave so now merch will say oh well that's

1092
01:27:26,673 --> 01:27:31,353
because they were outpriced you know they were they were priced out their their scams became

1093
01:27:31,353 --> 01:27:35,193
unprofitable unprofitable and it's like yeah but why did their scams become unprofitable yeah

1094
01:27:35,193 --> 01:27:36,393
because we're hostile.

1095
01:27:37,333 --> 01:27:37,833
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1096
01:27:37,973 --> 01:27:41,593
And also, like, the fact that we're talking about it

1097
01:27:41,593 --> 01:27:43,393
and doing these things,

1098
01:27:43,553 --> 01:27:46,733
maybe someone who was prone to buy one of these scams

1099
01:27:46,733 --> 01:27:51,393
had to think twice and refrained from doing that stupid shit.

1100
01:27:51,573 --> 01:27:54,793
So, like, that's why I still believe that education

1101
01:27:54,793 --> 01:27:56,053
is the most important thing.

1102
01:27:56,313 --> 01:28:00,113
And maybe you can't, you probably can't educate everyone in the world

1103
01:28:00,113 --> 01:28:02,273
to run a lightning node at home.

1104
01:28:02,393 --> 01:28:04,373
Like, it's too complex for most people.

1105
01:28:04,373 --> 01:28:07,553
but you can tell everyone why shitcoins are shit.

1106
01:28:07,713 --> 01:28:09,993
That's very simple to explain.

1107
01:28:10,313 --> 01:28:10,973
Right, yeah.

1108
01:28:11,113 --> 01:28:13,493
And if you basically say,

1109
01:28:13,593 --> 01:28:14,793
okay, Bitcoin is money

1110
01:28:14,793 --> 01:28:17,273
and we're not going to put up with your stupid spamming,

1111
01:28:17,613 --> 01:28:19,313
then that kind of refocuses everybody

1112
01:28:19,313 --> 01:28:20,973
and gets everybody back on the same page.

1113
01:28:21,033 --> 01:28:22,573
Oh, we should be improving Bitcoin is money.

1114
01:28:22,673 --> 01:28:24,093
And then it becomes easier to convince people

1115
01:28:24,093 --> 01:28:24,973
to run Lightning nodes.

1116
01:28:25,473 --> 01:28:28,193
And then it becomes easier and easier to run Lightning nodes.

1117
01:28:28,333 --> 01:28:29,253
The more in open source,

1118
01:28:29,513 --> 01:28:30,733
the more people that run a program,

1119
01:28:30,833 --> 01:28:32,153
the more eyes you have on that program

1120
01:28:32,153 --> 01:28:33,333
and the faster it improves.

1121
01:28:33,333 --> 01:28:34,353
So that's what we want.

1122
01:28:34,373 --> 01:28:39,173
We want lots of people running it, even though it's difficult, it's way easier than it was, and it's getting better.

1123
01:28:39,593 --> 01:28:41,453
And the more people that do it, the faster it will go.

1124
01:28:41,913 --> 01:28:42,633
So that's what we want.

1125
01:28:43,173 --> 01:28:43,373
Yep.

1126
01:28:43,873 --> 01:28:45,793
I have, you can see the box over there.

1127
01:28:45,953 --> 01:28:46,873
That's the start nine.

1128
01:28:47,033 --> 01:28:47,913
It's running over here.

1129
01:28:48,673 --> 01:28:48,913
Excellent.

1130
01:28:49,033 --> 01:28:49,233
Excellent.

1131
01:28:49,773 --> 01:28:53,873
Anyway, is there anything we haven't talked about yet that you wanted to bring up really?

1132
01:28:54,013 --> 01:28:56,693
Like, have we missed anything here before your battery runs out?

1133
01:28:57,093 --> 01:28:57,293
Yeah.

1134
01:28:57,313 --> 01:29:00,773
I mean, there's like, yeah, like I said, there's probably a ton in here.

1135
01:29:01,573 --> 01:29:03,193
I think we hit all the main points.

1136
01:29:04,373 --> 01:29:06,413
And some bonus points.

1137
01:29:07,073 --> 01:29:12,273
I just want to reiterate that I would love to have a direct conversation with Merch or anyone from the core dev side.

1138
01:29:12,533 --> 01:29:21,813
This problem wouldn't exist if they just treated our concerns as real concerns and treated us like human beings and actually talk to us and listen to our concerns.

1139
01:29:22,313 --> 01:29:30,633
That's a whole different can of worms to open up the not letting you guys even propose stuff on the forums and stuff.

1140
01:29:30,973 --> 01:29:32,533
That's a huge problem.

1141
01:29:32,713 --> 01:29:33,813
Let's not go there now.

1142
01:29:33,813 --> 01:29:38,433
So, I mean, I would absolutely love a conversation between you and Marge.

1143
01:29:38,533 --> 01:29:43,433
I would be glued to the screen, pretending I understood what you were talking about.

1144
01:29:43,893 --> 01:29:47,213
And I think a lot of my listeners would too.

1145
01:29:47,213 --> 01:29:52,573
So, like, subscribe and brush your teeth and comment if you want to see the things.

1146
01:29:53,533 --> 01:29:56,633
And Chris, thank you for coming back to the show.

1147
01:29:56,813 --> 01:30:01,133
You're welcome back whenever you want to do another rant or back and forth like this.

1148
01:30:01,333 --> 01:30:02,853
Follow Chris on X.

1149
01:30:02,853 --> 01:30:05,493
I guess that's the best way to follow you, right?

1150
01:30:06,133 --> 01:30:06,673
Yep, yeah.

1151
01:30:06,993 --> 01:30:08,213
Seaglita6 is my handle.