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Douglas, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Yeah.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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Happy to be here.

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Happy to have you here, Douglas.

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Um, yes, for our, our listeners who don't know you, can you give us a

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little introduction about yourself?

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What's the TLDR on Douglas Backham?

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Yeah.

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Uh, I guess I've had multiple lives.

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My, my current life is, with the, uh, Bitbox hardware wallet.

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So, um, I'm the original inventor of the, the Bitbox01, that's now retired.

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We're on the Bitbox02, a hardware wallet for storing Bitcoin.

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And, um, yeah, at the beginning I kind of did it all.

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I have a technical background, but now I'm, uh, maybe by

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default got stuck as the CEO.

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And so I'm doing mostly, uh, talking to people.

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And, um, yeah, before that, uh, I was actually, neuroscientist, uh, at the

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university here in, Switzerland, ETH.

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And, um, yeah, I have a PhD in, uh, neuroengineering actually.

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And before that, uh, mechanical engineering did robotics, AI.

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And so I kind of had the, Uh, from my mechanical engineering background,

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I guess I had some of the skills developed, like coding, hardware,

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embedded firmware stuff to kind of build a, build a hardware wallet.

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So somewhere in between rocket science and brain surgeon,

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Yeah, something.

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between rocket science and brain surgery, I should say.

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But yeah, so I'm curious, how does one invent a Bitcoin hardware wallet?

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Like where, where does one start?

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Like, do you start with imagining?

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the software or the hardware and like do you tinker like what what

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goes on there explain the process

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Yeah, so, um, I guess when I first heard about Bitcoin, it was 2013.

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then after playing around a little bit, I, I, uh, started tinkering with

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hardware wallets around 2014, early 2014.

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And the concept had existed at the time, but there was nothing on the market.

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And, also at the same time, there's a lot of scams going around in hardware,

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in particular with mining equipment.

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Uh, and so there's a lot of, um, like mining equipment.

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There's big pre orders you had to do, so you had to pool together

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a bunch of money, and then you could buy some mining equipment.

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but the problem was that some people started taking advantage of it and

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basically doing scams, so collecting big pre orders and then, uh, running

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off with the money, or even fake companies, um, just never delivering.

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And I didn't know if that would happen with hardware wallets also, uh, and

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so, I thought, okay, just make my own.

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And I know when I first bought Bitcoin, uh, given my technical

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background, I kind of had some ideas of the security issues involved.

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took me probably a good two weeks before I actually felt comfortable holding it.

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it myself, because I understood a lot of the risks involved with self custody.

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And at the time, the most secure way to do it was to, you know, put your tinfoil

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hat on and go grab some old computer, rip out the, know, the networking parts of it,

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install like a minimal Linux on it, and put Electrum on it, and then do all your

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transactions on this offline computer.

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I'm like, okay, you know, and this, this This Bitcoin stuff, or at least

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the technology behind it, uh, I thought was super special, super powerful, but,

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you know, it's never gonna get anywhere if people have to do this, of course.

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And so HardwareWallet's, you know, it's basically a way to make offline

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computers, air gap computers, air gap system, uh, simple.

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And so, yeah, I started building it.

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And, um, yeah, that was in my spare time.

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So my day job was still doing, um, yeah, neuroengineering,

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neuroscience experiments.

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Um, yeah, I was actually, I was a group leader at the time.

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So I had a little team, um, had a boss.

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Uh, he was pretty supportive of me also, uh, thankful to him.

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yeah, I was building some stuff and I guess the very first thing I did was,

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uh, try to understand cryptography.

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That's probably an important thing for, for this, this technology.

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Uh, and so I actually built my own, uh, cryptographic libraries to sign,

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uh, Bitcoin transactions, from scratch.

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It, it took a while, but it was, it was good for learning and they're

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very, very buggy, very, very slow.

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Probably full of vulnerabilities, but, uh, has a good learning experience.

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And then, uh, I think had that as a base and then started doing,

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uh, yeah, the hardware design.

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and yeah, people think hardware is kind of complicated, but,

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it's getting simpler and simpler.

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So, for example, for 10, you can get, at least at the time, you can get 10 PCBs,

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In 10 days, uh, for 10, uh, from China.

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And so you can do pretty rapid, prototyping cycles, uh, with that.

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And, yeah, and started, started doing some, uh, coding on Embedded

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Firmware, pick out some chips.

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you know, PCB design is kind of like, uh, connect the dots.

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I guess when you're a kid in grade school, you, you know, connect

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the dots between the numbers.

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It's kind of like that.

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You just have chips with pin numbers on it and you, uh, well, this one's for voltage.

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Okay, connect it to voltage.

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It's kind of a fun little thing.

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and lots of open source tools available.

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So, you know, anyone can really jump into it.

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And of course, you know, I'm, I'm simplifying it a lot.

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It takes a lot of work, a lot of, uh, uh, banging your head.

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There's probably a lot of times where I'm at night.

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I'm like, is this ever going to work?

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Um, but, you know, you keep fighting through it.

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I ended up getting a prototype and, um, yeah, I'm living in, um, uh, Basel

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at the time in Switzerland and, uh, went to some meetups in Zurich, Bitcoin

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meetups, really impressive, like a lot of big name, uh, people in the

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space were in the Switzerland area.

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I got to meet them at the meetups, um, and, uh, got really good feedback.

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And my co founder, who I started the business with originally.

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Um, Jonas Schnelly is one of the maybe most famous people in the Bitcoin space,

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one of the original core, maybe not original, but former core developer.

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Uh, we happen to live in the same city.

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And so then, yeah, we decided, uh, started meeting up every

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week and said, hey, let's try

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nice and did you did you ever consider viewing Making a Bitcoin

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hardware wallet to be neuroscience.

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So let me explain that question a bit.

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Like that's, that's sort of our, our thing here on, uh, on the Freedom Footprint

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show is we view Satoshis not just as mere data, but that's something else

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since, You need a human brain to keep a secret from all other human brains

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in order for Bitcoin to work, right?

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And if you think about it, every single aspect of the Bitcoin requires

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a human to do something deliberately.

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It's not just code, it's a guy running code.

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And the same goes for miners, and for node runners, and for users.

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It all requires, uh, human action and, uh, deliberate action.

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So, in a way, you could view, uh, keeping, uh, keeping the secret of where your

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hardware wallet is and, uh, the passphrase for it as Neuroscience, I guess,

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because it's a, it's a bridge between the human brain and, and the computer.

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Um, yeah, this is a bit hippie ish, I know, but yeah.

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I would say there's some, there's some theories in, um, computer science,

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cognitive science, um, that talk about, uh, the importance of embodied cognition,

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and this was actually kind of part of my research, um, part of my PhD.

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where the theory is that you can't really separate the brain from

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the body from the environment.

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It all works together.

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Uh, and so, like, uh, if you want to study intelligence, it has to be, uh,

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in situ, in, in, um, in its natural environment, uh, in order for it, because

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it's designed to operate from your senses, it's designed to operate from,

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uh, the world around it, around it.

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And so, and in that sense, uh, I would say neuroscientists.

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of them, maybe many of them, think that everything is, uh, part of the brain.

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You're saying everything is part of Satoshi.

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Neuroscience say everything is part of the brain.

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So maybe, yeah, I guess it fits together.

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Yeah.

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I love that.

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There's a lot of that, that kind of stuff in the, in the

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book we're writing currently.

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And like, because there's no, no one knows to which extent the brain creates

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reality and the, the, the objective subjective dichotomy might be entirely.

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You know, um, what's the word?

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Um,

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Fictitious.

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fictitious.

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Yeah, exactly.

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think, yeah, Philosophy 101, they teach you about the mind in a vat.

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Uh, experiment, I think, where how can you tell if you're in the real

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world or if you're in a simulation?

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I think there's no answer.

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Yeah.

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Are you familiar with the concept called the Boltzmann brain?

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Not the name.

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I'm not sure.

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Uh, there's Ludwig Boltzmann from Boltzmann.

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I, I don't, I don't remember if there's a von there or not, but Boltzmann, uh,

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came up with the concept of, you know, since, um, quantum mechanics is a thing.

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A particle can just.

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theoretically pop up, uh, into being anywhere.

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And if the universe is truly infinite, then there would be a chance of, um,

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particles just popping up to, uh, by pure chance to form a brain somewhere in

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literal vacuum in outer space somewhere to exist for just a couple of nanoseconds.

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But those nanoseconds will be enough for that brain to come up

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with an entire universe of its own.

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And there is no way of knowing if we're living inside one of

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those imaginary Boltzmann brain universes or the real thing.

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So, yeah, it's a very weird theory, but I love it because it's, it's so out there.

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And in there.

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Yeah, there was no question there.

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Luke, do you have a question in mind?

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Well, okay.

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So, I mean, this, this neuroscience topic is, is fascinating.

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And so, I mean, I guess that's the origins of, of, uh, of Bitbox, right?

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But, I mean, now, nowadays, uh, Bitbox is is up there with, you know, it's

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frequently cited as one of the easiest to use and the open source ethos of it.

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I mean, I think that's what attracted us to it.

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It was really just all by reputation, basically.

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So how did you build?

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What was your philosophy, I guess, in building this company

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and Growing it into that.

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Now there's the, the bit box zero two and, um, I don't know, just

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the, the takeover, uh, so to say of this, uh, hardware wallet market.

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uh, first of all, a small tangent.

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Yeah.

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So, So, it came out of a neuroengineering neuroscience lab, um, so it, we actually

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were a spinoff of the university, believe it or not, I think it was just

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marketing for the university, and you have to have some kind of what they call

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technology transfer from academia to, to the business, and that was basically

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the, um, so I say neuroengineering, so the lab I was in would build, um.

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New machines, new technology, including ASICs, uh, embedded

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stuff, uh, to study neurons, and I was using that to do experiments.

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And so the technology transfer was taking this, uh, like PCB design,

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embedded programming stuff, put it into a company and it completely different.

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Somehow that worked, so we got the label.

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then, um, besides that, I think there's probably no relation.

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I think with respect to, uh, this company, yeah, I guess, uh,

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I can't come from a small town, um, you know, modest upbringing,

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middle class family and in America.

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So I'm living in Switzerland, but from America originally.

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So I guess, uh, yeah, people say it's dying, but I think there's still some

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of this pioneer spirit left, uh, like independence, uh, things like that.

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Um, and so what really attracted me, one of the big things that attracted me

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to Bitcoin was kind of this concept of.

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Taking power away from central agencies and giving it to individuals,

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to people, such that they have an opportunity to improve their lives,

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build a better life for themselves.

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And I think anytime you take power away from the people or power to the people,

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if it's from centralized agencies or, you know, whatever it is, you know,

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fire, giving that to individuals.

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you can, you don't know what the future holds, but usually it's, uh, a better

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life for the whole world, in my opinion.

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and so I think Bitcoin, um, has this capability and I was really interested

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in contributing to it in some way.

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yeah, I didn't, with my neuroscience, um, uh, career,

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the next step would be academia.

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Um, didn't know if I wanted to do that.

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Um, didn't think anyone in Bitcoin would give me a job.

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Uh, so yeah, okay, can make a company, uh, give myself a job.

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That's, that's one aspect.

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And then particularly to this, um, like I mentioned before, it took me two

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weeks to get comfortable holding coins.

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And so I wanted to make it easy for people.

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Uh, and so equip people with the tools they need, um, empower them to

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participate in this, uh, ecosystem.

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00:13:37,573 --> 00:13:42,463
give them the security they need and try to make it as easy as possible such

231
00:13:42,463 --> 00:13:46,973
that they can be comfortable as many people can, uh, if they want, um, jump

232
00:13:46,973 --> 00:13:50,173
in and, um, do something for themselves.

233
00:13:50,672 --> 00:13:53,972
how did you come up with the slick design of the, of the bitbox?

234
00:13:54,392 --> 00:13:59,162
Because those little touch buttons that aren't really buttons at

235
00:13:59,162 --> 00:14:01,047
all, you just Touch the thing.

236
00:14:01,057 --> 00:14:02,967
Like, uh, I really like that.

237
00:14:03,367 --> 00:14:05,477
Um, so how do you come up with that?

238
00:14:06,542 --> 00:14:07,412
Yeah, um,

239
00:14:09,712 --> 00:14:11,052
personal philosophy, I guess.

240
00:14:11,112 --> 00:14:12,892
I've always been more of a minimalist.

241
00:14:12,972 --> 00:14:13,902
Type of person.

242
00:14:14,172 --> 00:14:18,862
Um, it's like kind of like a, a zen minimalist kind of, um,

243
00:14:19,812 --> 00:14:21,582
aesthetic has always attracted me.

244
00:14:22,182 --> 00:14:25,872
And so when I was designing, um, the original bit box and also the bit

245
00:14:25,872 --> 00:14:30,452
Box O2, uh, one thing we had in mind was to, um, kind of keep it discreet.

246
00:14:31,317 --> 00:14:33,627
Keep it simple, keep it really smooth, slick.

247
00:14:34,272 --> 00:14:37,962
and I think people appreciate that, uh, because, you know, if, if you

248
00:14:37,962 --> 00:14:41,342
have your life savings on one of these, you don't want people to, hey,

249
00:14:41,772 --> 00:14:42,972
I know what that thing is, you know.

250
00:14:43,552 --> 00:14:47,912
Um, so try to keep it looking kind of like a USB stick, uh, basically.

251
00:14:48,391 --> 00:14:53,664
and that also means, um, kind of hiding the user interface, so the touch

252
00:14:53,664 --> 00:14:57,979
buttons, like the Bitbox01 also had, um, A single touch button with an LED,

253
00:14:58,339 --> 00:15:01,059
but buried beneath the plastic, you wouldn't see it unless you plugged it in.

254
00:15:01,869 --> 00:15:06,379
Um, the Bitbox02 has the, yeah, call it invisible touch sensors on the side.

255
00:15:06,869 --> 00:15:09,669
Uh, also the screen, you wouldn't even notice it has a screen until

256
00:15:09,669 --> 00:15:11,019
you plug it in and it lights up.

257
00:15:11,664 --> 00:15:13,224
and then, of course, we want it to look pretty.

258
00:15:14,414 --> 00:15:16,164
I can't say how that happened.

259
00:15:17,384 --> 00:15:21,304
It's luck, or if there's some kind of innate, uh, providence

260
00:15:21,304 --> 00:15:22,304
or, yeah, probably luck.

261
00:15:23,224 --> 00:15:24,304
No, but it's super cool.

262
00:15:24,304 --> 00:15:29,044
And I'm like, yeah, I see all the other hardware wallet companies,

263
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,320
build these flashy things with, uh, big screens and color screens and

264
00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:38,730
tons of buttons and stuff, and like, I just want my, uh, hardware wallet

265
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,770
to be as simple as possible, like I want it to be the bare minimum, I

266
00:15:42,770 --> 00:15:44,380
don't want it to do anything else.

267
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:46,550
But then, then sign transactions.

268
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:47,680
That's, that's all.

269
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:52,990
Yeah, so, uh, I guess part of our core philosophy is to make

270
00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:54,210
things as simple as possible.

271
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:56,820
Again, so, you know, anyone can join.

272
00:15:57,490 --> 00:16:02,210
And, um, you know, it has to do with the whole UX, um, how you deal with

273
00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:05,030
it, how our app We also try to make our app really simple and minimal.

274
00:16:05,739 --> 00:16:08,679
besides that, we also think privacy is extremely important.

275
00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:12,576
and so a lot of things we do is with privacy in mind also.

276
00:16:13,186 --> 00:16:17,346
And so we don't have any labels of Bitbox on the hardware wallet itself.

277
00:16:17,973 --> 00:16:22,243
when we ship packages, we don't mention Bitcoin, um, don't mention

278
00:16:22,253 --> 00:16:23,673
hardware wallet, things like that.

279
00:16:24,213 --> 00:16:26,033
Um, and lots of other examples.

280
00:16:26,695 --> 00:16:31,415
And I guess you don't keep a database of all of your customers addresses

281
00:16:32,665 --> 00:16:37,145
for a hacker to hack, which allegedly happened to some other hardware

282
00:16:37,145 --> 00:16:38,645
wallets that we shall not mention.

283
00:16:39,128 --> 00:16:42,748
yeah, you can see our privacy policy on our website, but basically, um,

284
00:16:43,488 --> 00:16:47,628
yeah, we need to, like, we collect user information in the shop.

285
00:16:47,848 --> 00:16:50,928
Uh, we need to keep that until your order gets shipped out and maybe for,

286
00:16:51,208 --> 00:16:54,958
you know, a few weeks after, uh, in case you have any issues with shipping

287
00:16:54,958 --> 00:16:56,428
or you want to return it or whatever.

288
00:16:56,938 --> 00:16:59,518
Uh, but then we anonymize everything after about a month.

289
00:17:00,378 --> 00:17:05,278
And, uh, yeah, even we even talked to the Swiss government and they say, okay,

290
00:17:05,278 --> 00:17:07,698
yeah, you can anonymize your invoices too.

291
00:17:07,698 --> 00:17:08,568
That's, that's okay.

292
00:17:08,568 --> 00:17:09,158
That works.

293
00:17:09,698 --> 00:17:13,058
Um, and so, yeah, we try to minimize as much as possible.

294
00:17:13,608 --> 00:17:14,788
Yeah, we do have a newsletter.

295
00:17:14,848 --> 00:17:19,118
Um, so we have, uh, but we collect the minimal amount of information, just your

296
00:17:19,958 --> 00:17:23,638
email address and your, your name can be whatever you can use anonymous stuff.

297
00:17:24,118 --> 00:17:28,048
Uh, and I would say that, um, yeah, unfortunately with.

298
00:17:28,403 --> 00:17:31,463
Um, mailing newsletters, you kind of, kind of have to use

299
00:17:31,463 --> 00:17:32,893
a centralized entity to do it.

300
00:17:33,363 --> 00:17:37,943
Um, and so you, you should just expect with us or with anyone that if you put

301
00:17:37,943 --> 00:17:40,023
data on a newsletter, it's probably going to get hacked at some point.

302
00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:42,213
But we try to minimize the exposure.

303
00:17:42,954 --> 00:17:43,634
Good to hear.

304
00:17:43,694 --> 00:17:48,464
So speaking of privacy and things like that, like, what's your view

305
00:17:48,474 --> 00:17:51,134
on the current state of Bitcoin?

306
00:17:51,314 --> 00:17:55,094
Do you think we're in a healthy state or not at the moment?

307
00:17:56,693 --> 00:17:59,183
yeah, I, I don't really think of healthy or not.

308
00:17:59,183 --> 00:18:00,073
I think just early.

309
00:18:00,563 --> 00:18:01,123
I think it's early.

310
00:18:01,553 --> 00:18:03,733
I think there's still going to be bumps in the road.

311
00:18:04,253 --> 00:18:07,658
Um, There's still going to be bumps in the road that we don't foresee,

312
00:18:07,848 --> 00:18:10,838
you know, right now some bumps in the road that people do see is with

313
00:18:11,228 --> 00:18:14,028
government regulation, things like that.

314
00:18:14,338 --> 00:18:18,398
Maybe some use cases for Bitcoin, how people are using the protocol itself,

315
00:18:19,349 --> 00:18:20,809
putting extra data in it, whatever.

316
00:18:21,739 --> 00:18:26,269
To me, I don't really focus on it too much because I think the technology

317
00:18:26,269 --> 00:18:29,749
itself is so superior that it's going to win out in the end anyways.

318
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,059
Of course, you know, it's good that people do pay attention to this.

319
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,389
They do bring up awareness and they do fight for the cause

320
00:18:36,769 --> 00:18:37,919
in whatever field they're in.

321
00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:47,469
If it's legal or coders keeping things legitimate, things like that.

322
00:18:47,809 --> 00:18:50,999
So I'm I'm not too worried about it.

323
00:18:50,999 --> 00:18:56,689
I think in general, um, I would judge maybe the health of it more

324
00:18:56,689 --> 00:19:00,359
based off of adoption and knowledge.

325
00:19:00,741 --> 00:19:03,171
and I think even there, we're still pretty early.

326
00:19:03,231 --> 00:19:08,171
So now, compared to 2014, you know, when almost no one knew about it,

327
00:19:08,781 --> 00:19:11,641
I think a lot of people in the world have at least heard about it.

328
00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:15,346
Although I think most of the people in the world still don't understand it.

329
00:19:16,056 --> 00:19:18,616
And so it's baby steps, right?

330
00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:23,016
And I think it's an ongoing educational thing and I think it takes people a

331
00:19:23,016 --> 00:19:25,116
different amount of time to figure it out.

332
00:19:25,146 --> 00:19:27,126
But I'm pretty confident in the direction.

333
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:28,599
Yeah, good to hear.

334
00:19:28,629 --> 00:19:35,349
Uh, yeah, there's one thing that there that I'm, I'm, Myself, I'm conflicted

335
00:19:35,349 --> 00:19:41,139
about, and that is, uh, if I prefer a pro Bitcoin politician or an anti

336
00:19:41,349 --> 00:19:46,669
Bitcoin politician, because there's, there's a dilemma there because if, if

337
00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:51,219
you need a politician to allow you to use Bitcoin, then, then what's the point?

338
00:19:51,379 --> 00:19:53,029
It doesn't really work in that case.

339
00:19:53,059 --> 00:19:57,849
So maybe an anti Bitcoin politician would even be preferable because it

340
00:19:57,849 --> 00:20:00,369
would push people into best practices.

341
00:20:00,469 --> 00:20:02,669
So do you have any views on that?

342
00:20:04,049 --> 00:20:05,959
No, I think how you state it is

343
00:20:07,969 --> 00:20:08,579
nicely done.

344
00:20:10,129 --> 00:20:12,579
It's a debate I don't think I have an answer for.

345
00:20:13,619 --> 00:20:18,269
Maybe one thing I could say is another analogy to my academic career.

346
00:20:18,994 --> 00:20:24,203
is, um, oftentimes you see, like science is all, some people think

347
00:20:24,203 --> 00:20:27,853
science is like a fix, people know facts and stuff like that, but it's

348
00:20:27,853 --> 00:20:31,173
not at all, especially in the brain, people really don't know anything.

349
00:20:31,233 --> 00:20:33,283
They have theories and stuff like that, but they get proven

350
00:20:33,283 --> 00:20:34,653
wrong every, every decade.

351
00:20:35,383 --> 00:20:38,653
And so oftentimes, not only in neuroscience, but in any field,

352
00:20:38,683 --> 00:20:42,683
when someone comes with a new idea that challenges the existing

353
00:20:42,713 --> 00:20:44,818
dogma, There's always pushback.

354
00:20:45,668 --> 00:20:50,628
And usually what happens with scientific revolutions is actually the pushback

355
00:20:52,768 --> 00:20:58,018
ends after, you know, a generation or two of scientists retire.

356
00:20:59,218 --> 00:21:01,828
And then the new scientists who come up have a more open mind,

357
00:21:01,838 --> 00:21:04,108
they read the research, like, oh, this makes a lot of sense.

358
00:21:04,858 --> 00:21:05,898
Oh, this makes a lot of sense.

359
00:21:05,948 --> 00:21:08,268
And so you get new people coming, they understand it.

360
00:21:08,658 --> 00:21:11,908
And then within a few generations, then you have a new scientific theory

361
00:21:12,208 --> 00:21:13,748
that's established and accepted.

362
00:21:14,538 --> 00:21:17,258
And probably it's going to be the same for, for Bitcoin.

363
00:21:18,258 --> 00:21:21,788
And so I think, yeah, you know, right now around the world, especially in America,

364
00:21:21,888 --> 00:21:28,888
there's a lot of, um, politicians who are maybe should be retired, but they're not.

365
00:21:28,888 --> 00:21:33,483
Transcribed And I think, you know, in a matter of time as, um, new

366
00:21:33,483 --> 00:21:36,653
generations come and they understand the technology better, they understand

367
00:21:36,653 --> 00:21:39,073
the impacts better, that's probably how the change is going to happen.

368
00:21:39,753 --> 00:21:43,833
Yeah, they're, they're regarded rather than retired anyways.

369
00:21:44,153 --> 00:21:49,333
So, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's your explanation there that to me, that's

370
00:21:49,363 --> 00:21:55,443
the difference between science and the science, which is, uh, what most people

371
00:21:55,743 --> 00:21:58,553
think is science, but it really isn't.

372
00:21:58,613 --> 00:22:02,193
If, uh, if you can't question it, it's not science.

373
00:22:02,223 --> 00:22:06,813
Like nothing is ever, never, ever, uh, fully established

374
00:22:07,534 --> 00:22:08,134
okay, so go.

375
00:22:08,224 --> 00:22:11,614
Going back to going back back to the bit box itself a little bit,

376
00:22:11,974 --> 00:22:15,004
um, what is the, uh, uh, the.

377
00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,299
Uh, the, the, the privacy, the privacy aspect is, is great.

378
00:22:19,299 --> 00:22:20,539
I'm glad you touched on that.

379
00:22:20,869 --> 00:22:24,229
Uh, what are the other things that sort of set Bitbox apart

380
00:22:24,289 --> 00:22:26,169
from the other options out there?

381
00:22:26,169 --> 00:22:28,959
Because there, there are plenty of hardware waltz to choose from.

382
00:22:28,959 --> 00:22:31,679
Why, why would someone pick the Bitbox?

383
00:22:32,106 --> 00:22:33,046
yeah, thank you for asking.

384
00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:36,450
I guess when it comes to hardware wallets, there's two main concepts.

385
00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:40,560
One is, um, Security, of course, another is usability.

386
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,800
I think privacy kind of fits into security.

387
00:22:43,497 --> 00:22:45,857
and I, in my opinion, of course, I'm biased.

388
00:22:45,857 --> 00:22:49,037
I think the Bitbox outshines the competition in both aspects.

389
00:22:49,597 --> 00:22:53,132
Although I would say security now, um, you probably can't go

390
00:22:53,132 --> 00:22:55,602
wrong with any major hard rule.

391
00:22:56,062 --> 00:23:00,042
Right now, um, they're all, they're all pretty secure, so it's more kind of

392
00:23:00,082 --> 00:23:04,381
nitpicky in the details, although I think we have some, more advanced concepts

393
00:23:04,431 --> 00:23:09,811
that kind of, kind of do put us ahead, such as, um, anti klepto, um, stuff for,

394
00:23:10,711 --> 00:23:15,735
Some really, really tangential security on how you do signatures, encrypted

395
00:23:15,735 --> 00:23:18,365
RAM, um, yeah, some things like that.

396
00:23:18,665 --> 00:23:21,841
But I think where we really shine, is in usability.

397
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:25,579
so one thing we're really proud about is oftentimes we hear people say, Hey!

398
00:23:26,469 --> 00:23:30,519
The bid box is the hard role that I will give to my, my partner or my family.

399
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,380
and I, I think, you know, that really makes me feel, feel nice because

400
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:36,630
that was kind of the goal, you know, to get more people involved.

401
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:39,720
And if bid box is the, the harder role, the choice that they make

402
00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,600
to, uh, get other people involved that they think should be involved,

403
00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:45,340
uh, yeah, that, that feels good.

404
00:23:45,345 --> 00:23:45,595
And so.

405
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:52,095
Um, yeah, we have the, the touch sensors, um, which, uh, allows for, um, you know,

406
00:23:52,095 --> 00:23:56,655
I think, unique, fun experience, but also functionally allows for faster input.

407
00:23:57,013 --> 00:24:00,093
it's very, very new, very novel, so it takes a little while to get used to,

408
00:24:00,093 --> 00:24:03,743
but once you're used to it, you know, a couple of tries, then you'll Um, I

409
00:24:03,753 --> 00:24:05,003
think it's a pretty nice experience.

410
00:24:05,482 --> 00:24:11,022
one thing that we did from the very beginning was, um, adding a

411
00:24:11,052 --> 00:24:13,422
micro, onboard micro SD card slot.

412
00:24:13,832 --> 00:24:16,942
I think we're still the only one who does this, uh, in

413
00:24:16,942 --> 00:24:19,362
terms of backups and recovery.

414
00:24:19,952 --> 00:24:23,982
Uh, and so one thing, um, if you're used to software wallets or hardware

415
00:24:23,982 --> 00:24:27,782
wallets, you, when you make a backup, when you first create the wallet, You

416
00:24:27,782 --> 00:24:29,162
have to write down this word list.

417
00:24:29,992 --> 00:24:35,411
It's 12 or 24 words called a mnemonic seed, and we call it mnemonic anxiety,

418
00:24:35,451 --> 00:24:40,101
where, you know, it can take 20 minutes, 30 minutes to do this on a

419
00:24:40,101 --> 00:24:43,591
hard wallet, because then after you write it down, you have to reenter it to

420
00:24:43,591 --> 00:24:44,791
make sure you didn't make any mistakes.

421
00:24:45,241 --> 00:24:48,905
It's quite stressful because if you make one typo, you could be locked out of

422
00:24:48,905 --> 00:24:50,805
your funds if you ever try to recover.

423
00:24:51,158 --> 00:24:54,238
and what we do is, uh, try to eliminate that.

424
00:24:54,288 --> 00:25:00,138
So, uh, we use a onboard microSD card such that when you set up the wallet,

425
00:25:00,568 --> 00:25:02,758
um, all this stuff happens instantly.

426
00:25:03,081 --> 00:25:05,711
uh, as a backup onto the micro SD card.

427
00:25:05,721 --> 00:25:09,351
So instead of spending 20 to 30 minutes in a very stressful way, you can just

428
00:25:09,351 --> 00:25:12,881
take, you know, a few instances, uh, in a stress free way, in a way people

429
00:25:12,891 --> 00:25:14,661
understand also, that's important.

430
00:25:14,931 --> 00:25:18,471
People don't really understand why they're doing this, uh, where this, what the

431
00:25:18,481 --> 00:25:20,261
meaning is, what I need to do with it.

432
00:25:20,971 --> 00:25:24,117
Uh, and I, I think, um, that, that's another nice example.

433
00:25:24,427 --> 00:25:26,017
And I, of course, mentioned the app again.

434
00:25:26,107 --> 00:25:29,517
Uh, we do a lot to, you know, keep it clean, uh, basic and functional.

435
00:25:30,382 --> 00:25:31,582
Yeah, the app is great.

436
00:25:31,622 --> 00:25:36,402
I mean, the whole functionality of the thing is very slick

437
00:25:36,402 --> 00:25:38,492
and very, very nice to use.

438
00:25:38,995 --> 00:25:43,775
So what's, what's on the, for lack of a better word, roadmap?

439
00:25:44,315 --> 00:25:46,905
What's in the future for Bitbox?

440
00:25:46,906 --> 00:25:46,921
Bitbox.

441
00:25:47,572 --> 00:25:47,792
yeah.

442
00:25:47,812 --> 00:25:48,282
So.

443
00:25:49,615 --> 00:25:55,365
I always hesitate to to, to give timelines or deadlines or things like that because

444
00:25:55,485 --> 00:25:57,285
it always takes longer than expected.

445
00:25:57,615 --> 00:26:01,781
But I guess in general, uh, one thing we're really interested in, yeah,

446
00:26:01,781 --> 00:26:04,211
we're doing a lot of development both at hardware and software.

447
00:26:04,271 --> 00:26:06,311
One thing we're really interested in is user feedback.

448
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:10,211
Uh, and so yeah, just maybe quickly, first I'd say anyone listening out there.

449
00:26:10,586 --> 00:26:12,306
We used a Bitbox.

450
00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,396
If you have any feedback, we're really, really happy to accept

451
00:26:15,406 --> 00:26:20,066
that feedback, to take it when we're trying to build new products.

452
00:26:20,526 --> 00:26:23,586
And so, yeah, we're working on new hardware versions.

453
00:26:24,006 --> 00:26:25,446
The Bitbox02 is not going to go away.

454
00:26:25,576 --> 00:26:28,915
We're planning that to continue, but we're working on complementary versions.

455
00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:34,346
Hardware wallet versions, too early to go into details, uh, but then also, uh,

456
00:26:34,806 --> 00:26:39,116
continuously spending a lot of time on the app itself, trying to make it more

457
00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:43,786
and more user friendly, uh, try to add in functions that people, uh, request.

458
00:26:44,266 --> 00:26:48,146
Uh, so I think one really nice thing about the Bitbox, uh, we have a

459
00:26:48,146 --> 00:26:51,526
partnership with another Swiss company called Pocket, uh, which allows,

460
00:26:51,546 --> 00:26:55,256
um, buying Bitcoin, like dollar cost averaging, uh, things like that.

461
00:26:55,895 --> 00:26:59,705
Really nice thing is that based in Switzerland, uh, there's a law where

462
00:26:59,705 --> 00:27:04,295
there's no extra KYC, so they need to know your bank account, of course,

463
00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:05,615
when you send in money, but that's it.

464
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:10,470
And there's no extra KYC, and you can buy a Bitcoin for a thousand

465
00:27:10,510 --> 00:27:15,270
euro, about a thousand francs a day, uh, without any extra KYC.

466
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,063
And I think, really nice thing is if you're getting into, um, the Bitcoin

467
00:27:21,063 --> 00:27:22,823
space, you don't know where to start.

468
00:27:23,343 --> 00:27:26,153
Uh, one thing you can do is just simply buy a Bitbox.

469
00:27:26,893 --> 00:27:30,143
Uh, you don't need any crypto to begin with, any Bitcoin to begin with.

470
00:27:30,733 --> 00:27:32,203
And, um, just.

471
00:27:32,698 --> 00:27:35,988
Set up your wallet, and then inside the app itself, we have an integration

472
00:27:35,988 --> 00:27:39,198
with Pocket, where it's like really, really simple just to get started

473
00:27:39,198 --> 00:27:40,588
and buy some, buy some Bitcoin.

474
00:27:41,218 --> 00:27:43,598
and we're going to implement, uh, Cell soon.

475
00:27:43,748 --> 00:27:44,298
That's coming.

476
00:27:45,048 --> 00:27:49,076
Um, we've been working on, um, some Lightning stuff.

477
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,715
still kind of experimental, but hopefully that will happen.

478
00:27:52,035 --> 00:27:56,200
That will come out sometime later, working on, yeah, just, you know,

479
00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:58,290
small bug fixes, things like that.

480
00:27:58,410 --> 00:28:02,928
I recently came out with a watch only wallet, thinking about, um, you know,

481
00:28:03,768 --> 00:28:07,088
easier ways to import, export notes, uh, you know, a bunch of small things

482
00:28:07,148 --> 00:28:11,668
that, uh, basically, You know, we try to listen to our users and try

483
00:28:11,668 --> 00:28:15,948
to implement their feedback and then make a better and better product.

484
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:17,090
Nice.

485
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:20,050
And, and yeah, there's a lot going on in Switzerland.

486
00:28:20,050 --> 00:28:24,700
I was in Switzerland two weeks ago, uh, in Lugano on the other side.

487
00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:29,610
Uh, so do you have any collaborations there with, with the Plan B

488
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:30,900
or, or anything like that?

489
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,170
I'd say no, no close collaborations, but we, we talk to them all the time.

490
00:28:35,230 --> 00:28:39,560
Um, so we're, we've always been, um, uh, part of their conferences

491
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,440
that happen in the fall, which are excellent, excellent conferences.

492
00:28:44,055 --> 00:28:49,354
and yeah, go there, help with, um, the agenda, give talks, give

493
00:28:49,354 --> 00:28:51,844
workshops, um, sponsor, have a booth.

494
00:28:51,994 --> 00:28:55,564
Um, it's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful city.

495
00:28:56,874 --> 00:28:57,884
It's really nice.

496
00:28:58,364 --> 00:28:58,784
Um,

497
00:28:58,809 --> 00:29:03,769
I, like my experience there is that everything is five star.

498
00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:07,519
It's a five star town in a five star, uh, country.

499
00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:09,569
And it's a five star conference.

500
00:29:09,569 --> 00:29:11,329
I mean, Lugano Plan B is great.

501
00:29:11,819 --> 00:29:16,009
Uh, yeah, uh, all aspects of it is just phenomenal.

502
00:29:16,622 --> 00:29:16,772
Yeah.

503
00:29:16,772 --> 00:29:20,402
So in speaking of conferences, uh, we, we actually, we all met for the first

504
00:29:20,402 --> 00:29:25,142
time on, on Madera, and that's where we, where, where we first, uh, I guess

505
00:29:25,142 --> 00:29:29,702
we, we heard the, the a, a bit of the roadmap from the, the bit box side.

506
00:29:29,707 --> 00:29:33,122
And we ended up spending, uh, uh, some time in the, the line

507
00:29:33,122 --> 00:29:34,442
waiting for the, the plane.

508
00:29:34,532 --> 00:29:34,922
Uh.

509
00:29:35,417 --> 00:29:39,747
Uh, off of, off of Madeira, I think to our, to our first, uh, layover back home.

510
00:29:39,747 --> 00:29:43,657
But, uh, um, so it's just great to, to catch up to, uh,

511
00:29:43,717 --> 00:29:45,527
with Bitcoiners in person.

512
00:29:45,777 --> 00:29:48,757
I guess one question is what did you think of the, uh, the Madeira

513
00:29:48,757 --> 00:29:49,957
conference, Bitcoin Atlantis?

514
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:51,480
yeah, Madeira was great.

515
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,160
Uh, yeah, I didn't really have any expectations going in.

516
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:57,370
It was their first conference.

517
00:29:57,430 --> 00:30:01,755
Um, But it got there a really beautiful location also, really

518
00:30:01,755 --> 00:30:05,944
amazing location, really fun conference, uh, in a, in a football

519
00:30:05,944 --> 00:30:10,824
stadium, which is really interesting and, um, great, great speakers.

520
00:30:10,934 --> 00:30:15,074
They attracted, like, really nice speakers, not in, in Europe.

521
00:30:15,074 --> 00:30:20,059
Sometimes you don't get all of the, um, I guess North American speakers to come.

522
00:30:20,439 --> 00:30:23,989
Uh, but they're all there, so a really nice mix of both, uh, the European

523
00:30:23,989 --> 00:30:25,539
and the North American communities.

524
00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:27,529
Um, really great vibes.

525
00:30:27,959 --> 00:30:30,139
Uh, yeah, quite, quite loved it.

526
00:30:30,959 --> 00:30:35,389
I'm very happy to hear that, and yeah, we'll see when the next one will be,

527
00:30:35,469 --> 00:30:41,659
uh, But, uh, yeah, it's a great, we have some great conferences in Europe, uh,

528
00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:47,549
Madeira and, and, uh, Logano and, uh, Prague and Riga come to mind, uh, the,

529
00:30:47,639 --> 00:30:50,589
all, all, uh, super high signal events.

530
00:30:51,364 --> 00:30:51,894
Exactly.

531
00:30:52,094 --> 00:30:52,244
Yeah.

532
00:30:52,927 --> 00:30:54,067
That's how we want it.

533
00:30:54,832 --> 00:30:58,052
Yeah, we're going to be going to Prague just around the corner here.

534
00:30:58,052 --> 00:31:00,592
This episode will be out just after Prague.

535
00:31:00,632 --> 00:31:04,172
But yeah, any anything special planned there?

536
00:31:04,771 --> 00:31:08,721
yeah, so we'll have a booth, um, yeah, it'll come out after the conference,

537
00:31:08,761 --> 00:31:11,561
but otherwise I'd invite you to come, come hang out and meet us.

538
00:31:12,874 --> 00:31:18,694
but I'm actually gonna have a talk on the main stage, um, about customer support.

539
00:31:18,974 --> 00:31:19,034
Thank you.

540
00:31:20,304 --> 00:31:23,574
And how interesting stories from customer support and how that

541
00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:25,264
shapes our product development.

542
00:31:26,619 --> 00:31:26,939
Yeah.

543
00:31:26,969 --> 00:31:31,469
Um, well, uh, you can, you're going to Riga too, right?

544
00:31:32,297 --> 00:31:33,237
very likely, yes.

545
00:31:33,237 --> 00:31:33,627
Obi and

546
00:31:34,232 --> 00:31:34,652
Yeah.

547
00:31:34,742 --> 00:31:39,012
So, so, so well, everything we say about Prague now, uh, applies to

548
00:31:39,012 --> 00:31:41,152
Riga too, I guess, or most of it.

549
00:31:41,202 --> 00:31:41,432
Yeah.

550
00:31:42,507 --> 00:31:44,117
Riga, very, very likely.

551
00:31:44,167 --> 00:31:48,027
And then also, uh, Lugano, very, very likely in the fall.

552
00:31:48,502 --> 00:31:53,672
Yeah, our promo code works for Riga too, by the way, uh, the code Freedom,

553
00:31:53,702 --> 00:31:55,642
and maybe it works for Lugano too.

554
00:31:55,642 --> 00:31:59,802
I haven't spoken to those yet, but like, we'll see.

555
00:32:00,672 --> 00:32:06,537
Can you give us a little bit of a preview of your, your, your talk and, uh, Yeah,

556
00:32:06,537 --> 00:32:10,857
maybe a little behind the scenes for those who don't manage to make it to Prague.

557
00:32:12,062 --> 00:32:17,590
yeah, I mean, it's still in progress, but, uh, the general concept is, um, you're in

558
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:22,910
the space for a while, oftentimes you have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

559
00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:24,990
Um, so,

560
00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:26,550
For the Merkle trees,

561
00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:35,060
yeah, yeah, or yeah, if you're that deep, yeah, um, and so, you know,

562
00:32:35,060 --> 00:32:39,160
as oftentimes what comes into us in support, uh, can surprise us.

563
00:32:39,779 --> 00:32:42,889
like, oh, we had no idea that this was an issue, that this

564
00:32:42,889 --> 00:32:44,139
was coming, things like that.

565
00:32:44,619 --> 00:32:47,449
And so, maybe go through some interesting stories there.

566
00:32:47,829 --> 00:32:52,029
Also, um, you know, maybe remove a little bit of the stigma, because we're

567
00:32:52,029 --> 00:32:55,539
not aware of anyone actually talking about their own customer support.

568
00:32:55,999 --> 00:33:01,839
Because, you know, people maybe want to hide, um, supports all, like, bad

569
00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:03,369
things and problems and things like that.

570
00:33:03,369 --> 00:33:06,614
So maybe people want to kind of it away, don't know.

571
00:33:07,044 --> 00:33:10,284
And so we thought it would be interesting to kind of put this front and center,

572
00:33:10,354 --> 00:33:14,434
also highlight or emphasize, you know, like, we really care about support.

573
00:33:15,074 --> 00:33:16,484
We have a really great support team.

574
00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:19,914
They get, like, five star reviews, like on Trustpilot and so on.

575
00:33:20,834 --> 00:33:21,844
And so we're proud of that.

576
00:33:22,234 --> 00:33:23,334
And, um, yeah.

577
00:33:24,574 --> 00:33:29,344
I guess, uh, kind of, kind of bring, bring to people's attention that, you

578
00:33:29,344 --> 00:33:34,224
know, customer support's, uh, important, something we take very seriously, and

579
00:33:34,224 --> 00:33:38,344
it can also, uh, help improve your, your product design if you use it as a,

580
00:33:38,854 --> 00:33:40,304
uh, part of your product development.

581
00:33:40,943 --> 00:33:41,823
Yeah, sounds great.

582
00:33:41,823 --> 00:33:45,633
And I mean, again, this is another one of those things that I think, yeah, shows

583
00:33:45,633 --> 00:33:48,323
off why Bitbox is a bit, a bit different.

584
00:33:48,723 --> 00:33:53,823
Now, I've got another, I've got another, um, sort of angle on this, um, that, that

585
00:33:53,853 --> 00:33:58,448
everything we're talking about, we're, we're all Europe, And I think the, the

586
00:33:58,638 --> 00:34:02,998
Bitbox, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think, I think has a, has a bit of a

587
00:34:03,048 --> 00:34:06,518
more European, um, customer base as well.

588
00:34:07,084 --> 00:34:10,354
what do you, what do you think is sort of the, the difference between kind of the,

589
00:34:10,364 --> 00:34:16,694
the European community and market versus North America, Asia Pacific, uh, all that?

590
00:34:17,244 --> 00:34:18,354
well, we're trying to figure it out.

591
00:34:19,394 --> 00:34:21,744
So yeah, we're, we're, we're doing pretty well in Europe.

592
00:34:22,153 --> 00:34:23,503
quite, quite comfortable in Europe.

593
00:34:23,995 --> 00:34:26,775
trying to figure out ways to, you know, get a little bit awareness

594
00:34:26,815 --> 00:34:30,505
in America, but I think probably one of the big things is distance.

595
00:34:30,575 --> 00:34:34,055
Um, and so it's always, it's harder for us to get to America.

596
00:34:34,215 --> 00:34:37,925
It's farther away, costs more money, budgeting, things like that.

597
00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:43,407
there's a wider, probably a wider, or a lower signal to noise ratio.

598
00:34:43,407 --> 00:34:47,427
Um, and, Um, then a lot of, uh, European content, especially

599
00:34:47,427 --> 00:34:48,947
local language, European content.

600
00:34:49,437 --> 00:34:51,797
So it might be harder to break through that, that noise.

601
00:34:52,857 --> 00:34:56,977
Uh, and I, I think, you know, really to, to really get moving there probably

602
00:34:57,017 --> 00:35:00,877
needs some feet on the ground in America, um, to go and, you know,

603
00:35:00,927 --> 00:35:04,687
talk to people and maybe like a little grassroots campaign, things like that.

604
00:35:05,267 --> 00:35:11,337
Um, I think, you know, from, from the Bitcoiners I see, um, I think

605
00:35:11,337 --> 00:35:12,627
we're kind of all on the same page.

606
00:35:12,989 --> 00:35:15,589
But then it's a question of what is the, the broader market.

607
00:35:15,659 --> 00:35:19,059
So we hear some rumors that in America, you know, maybe there's a bit more

608
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,559
crypto, uh, rather than Bitcoin only.

609
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:26,009
Uh, I think Europe, uh, especially, uh, what we're aware of, like the

610
00:35:26,019 --> 00:35:30,139
German speaking regions, um, there's a, a bit more understanding of, like,

611
00:35:30,169 --> 00:35:34,359
why, uh, Bitcoin is unique, why it can distinguish itself from other coins.

612
00:35:34,409 --> 00:35:36,809
And I think that spreads through most of Europe.

613
00:35:37,659 --> 00:35:40,499
Um, and also thanks to the, these wonderful conferences

614
00:35:40,509 --> 00:35:43,219
that you had mentioned before, I think this is a big part too.

615
00:35:43,854 --> 00:35:48,995
And, you know, podcasts like, like you guys also, I think, yeah, some

616
00:35:48,995 --> 00:35:54,623
things in, um, Asia Pacific, yeah, I've visited, uh, a few times, uh, talked

617
00:35:54,623 --> 00:35:59,683
to some local people there, and from what I hear, uh, from them is that,

618
00:36:00,168 --> 00:36:03,138
crypto altcoins really kind of a thing.

619
00:36:03,138 --> 00:36:03,268
Yeah.

620
00:36:04,173 --> 00:36:09,813
Uh, have more of a, more of a dominance over there, and a big reason for that

621
00:36:09,823 --> 00:36:15,513
is, um, uh, from, from what I hear, from what they tell me is that Bitcoin

622
00:36:15,533 --> 00:36:17,283
doesn't have a marketing department.

623
00:36:18,073 --> 00:36:22,803
There's no marketing budget, whereas every other altcoin, including Ethereum,

624
00:36:23,293 --> 00:36:25,903
um, they have marketing, uh, budgets.

625
00:36:26,253 --> 00:36:32,173
Uh, and what happens is a lot of the, the content does get

626
00:36:32,183 --> 00:36:34,453
translated into Asian languages.

627
00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:38,010
thanks to these marketing budgets, but, uh, with Bitcoin,

628
00:36:38,090 --> 00:36:39,810
um, that kind of fell behind.

629
00:36:39,810 --> 00:36:42,440
There's no one pushing it, no money there to do that, so it really

630
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,840
has to be individuals doing it.

631
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,850
And because of that, you get, um, yeah, an oversaturation of information,

632
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,485
uh, leaning more towards altcoins.

633
00:36:53,205 --> 00:36:54,245
it makes sense to me.

634
00:36:54,645 --> 00:36:58,965
Uh, and so again, it's going to be an education, uh, kind of issue, uh, just

635
00:36:59,105 --> 00:37:00,905
learning experience kind of issue.

636
00:37:01,265 --> 00:37:02,265
People will learn in time.

637
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:07,992
you know, I think myself included, I think most people in the space, maybe

638
00:37:07,992 --> 00:37:11,592
not you guys, but most people in the space, when they first get started, uh,

639
00:37:11,592 --> 00:37:13,622
they are tempted to try to find, oh.

640
00:37:14,007 --> 00:37:14,747
Bitcoin's been around.

641
00:37:14,747 --> 00:37:16,297
What's the next best Bitcoin?

642
00:37:16,327 --> 00:37:19,687
What, what's the, Bitcoin must be MySpace, right?

643
00:37:20,187 --> 00:37:23,897
And, uh, this new shiny coin is, uh, Facebook, right?

644
00:37:24,517 --> 00:37:27,027
but you know, it's, it's, it's not a good analogy.

645
00:37:27,307 --> 00:37:29,417
Um, the better analogy is like, uh,

646
00:37:30,168 --> 00:37:37,028
the wheel, the wheel, or the circular shape as being the optimal shape

647
00:37:37,038 --> 00:37:38,738
for constructing a wheel with.

648
00:37:39,058 --> 00:37:43,428
Like, there are triangular shapes and hexagonal wheels, but yeah,

649
00:37:43,488 --> 00:37:45,298
Bitcoin is the circular shape.

650
00:37:45,888 --> 00:37:46,928
Yeah, that's a good one too.

651
00:37:47,608 --> 00:37:50,788
I was thinking like, I think Andres Antonopoulos was talking about

652
00:37:50,788 --> 00:37:55,808
it, how Bitcoin is more like, like internet, base layer of internet.

653
00:37:56,188 --> 00:37:58,168
It's a foundational thing.

654
00:37:58,608 --> 00:38:01,718
That base layer hasn't really changed so much, but things have been built

655
00:38:01,718 --> 00:38:06,628
on top of it to give us this, uh, Yeah, to allow us to do these, um,

656
00:38:07,228 --> 00:38:08,488
podcasts over the internet right now.

657
00:38:09,148 --> 00:38:13,858
and so, uh, yeah, it'll take people some time to figure that out.

658
00:38:14,477 --> 00:38:19,507
Yeah, I love that you keep your cool so much in all of this and just, I just want

659
00:38:19,507 --> 00:38:23,227
to tinker with my little invention here and like, don't worry about the noise.

660
00:38:23,297 --> 00:38:25,507
It will sort itself out sooner or later.

661
00:38:25,507 --> 00:38:29,487
We're more like on the barricades here and trying to like, because like,

662
00:38:29,487 --> 00:38:35,402
don't get me started about this, you know, both in, in And so Asia, both

663
00:38:35,402 --> 00:38:39,602
in Asia and in North America with the, the shit coiners and the shit

664
00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:43,232
coinery and marketing being the thing.

665
00:38:43,412 --> 00:38:48,332
And it's, it's all, you know, you can't have a nothing burger without word salad.

666
00:38:48,462 --> 00:38:55,297
Um, that's basically the, uh, All, all there is, and it annoys me so much, uh,

667
00:38:55,327 --> 00:39:00,817
and it makes me proud to be European because like, this is a more, a higher

668
00:39:00,817 --> 00:39:05,617
signal to noise ratio continent in, in, in terms of Bitcoin adoption, we might

669
00:39:05,617 --> 00:39:13,017
not have favorable politicians and the EU is a, is a bureaucratic cancer that

670
00:39:13,017 --> 00:39:19,062
is, you know, annoying us all, but, uh, But still, the German community, the

671
00:39:19,062 --> 00:39:23,482
Dutch community, the Swiss community, the Czech community, it's all great.

672
00:39:24,752 --> 00:39:29,132
So many people and so many high signal people, it's fantastic.

673
00:39:29,537 --> 00:39:33,657
So I guess you notice it also in North America and Asia, um,

674
00:39:33,937 --> 00:39:35,287
a lower signal to noise ratio.

675
00:39:36,135 --> 00:39:38,255
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely I do.

676
00:39:38,255 --> 00:39:41,395
Especially Uh, yeah, I should name names here.

677
00:39:41,545 --> 00:39:48,165
Uh, . But, uh, but, but that definitely is because I think in, I mean, in Asia

678
00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:49,935
there's a gambling culture, right?

679
00:39:50,115 --> 00:39:53,345
Uh, and in North America there's a marketing culture.

680
00:39:53,345 --> 00:39:54,485
Like everything is marketing.

681
00:39:55,045 --> 00:39:55,420
Uh, so.

682
00:39:56,470 --> 00:40:00,470
Uh, and I think here we're maybe more grounded, uh, maybe

683
00:40:00,470 --> 00:40:01,890
I'm biased here, but yeah.

684
00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:05,810
Luke, what's your, what's your, uh, general feeling there?

685
00:40:06,066 --> 00:40:10,016
Yeah, I mean, coming from Canada, I think the Canadian community is a

686
00:40:10,016 --> 00:40:12,356
little different from the American one.

687
00:40:12,651 --> 00:40:13,101
a little.

688
00:40:13,331 --> 00:40:17,261
It's, it's super based, uh, in the comparison to the U.

689
00:40:17,261 --> 00:40:17,421
S.

690
00:40:17,551 --> 00:40:20,041
Uh, like, Canadian community is one of the best in the world.

691
00:40:20,216 --> 00:40:20,926
Yeah, totally.

692
00:40:20,926 --> 00:40:24,856
But the thing is, I left Canada before I got connected with the Bitcoin community.

693
00:40:24,856 --> 00:40:28,546
And so it's really been the the American one that that I've had exposure to.

694
00:40:28,546 --> 00:40:32,266
And I think it's the same that That there's, there's just so many,

695
00:40:32,286 --> 00:40:36,296
there's so many things, uh, people are trying to, to find the, the thing

696
00:40:36,296 --> 00:40:41,916
that's going to hit and, um, see, see an opportunity to, to make money.

697
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:46,486
And, uh, yeah, I mean, comparing it to sort of say that, that one

698
00:40:46,496 --> 00:40:50,126
region of the world has the, the, the situation better or, or not.

699
00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:51,346
I mean, maybe that's unfair.

700
00:40:51,576 --> 00:40:54,286
There's, there's fantastic Bitcoiners all over the world.

701
00:40:54,656 --> 00:41:00,126
And I think it's sort of a case where maybe the local culture influences

702
00:41:00,186 --> 00:41:05,206
the community, the community growth, and local regulations I think

703
00:41:05,206 --> 00:41:10,156
also play a part certainly, right, because that if a country is I

704
00:41:10,871 --> 00:41:15,591
Really unfriendly to, to Bitcoin and really aggressively attacking it.

705
00:41:16,041 --> 00:41:20,641
I mean, I think American Bitcoin culture is extremely political right now.

706
00:41:20,641 --> 00:41:25,411
They're, they're really invested in, in their election, uh, coming up here.

707
00:41:25,411 --> 00:41:29,291
And, uh, maybe that noise just isn't quite so loud, uh, over

708
00:41:29,291 --> 00:41:31,041
here on, on this side of the pond.

709
00:41:31,478 --> 00:41:34,558
no, but this is a, this is a good discussion, I think, uh, uh, kind

710
00:41:34,558 --> 00:41:39,078
of the, the nature of building a, a Bitcoin company, right?

711
00:41:39,338 --> 00:41:42,148
Because, I mean, I think, I think one thing that we've been getting into a

712
00:41:42,148 --> 00:41:45,848
little bit on, on this show is that, is that maybe the, maybe the Bitcoin protocol

713
00:41:45,848 --> 00:41:47,853
itself be really, really, really cool.

714
00:41:48,103 --> 00:41:49,043
cautious with that.

715
00:41:50,253 --> 00:41:54,353
There's a lot of room to build on top of Bitcoin and build things that

716
00:41:54,353 --> 00:41:56,453
make the Bitcoin process easier.

717
00:41:56,453 --> 00:42:01,433
And I mean, my experience with using the Bitbox the first time, I tried to plug it

718
00:42:01,433 --> 00:42:03,803
into basically all of my own workflows.

719
00:42:04,383 --> 00:42:10,513
I'd been using the Sparrow app a lot, just for my own management, creating different

720
00:42:10,513 --> 00:42:12,943
wallets, multisigs and things like that.

721
00:42:13,548 --> 00:42:16,078
Bitbox worked perfectly right out of the box.

722
00:42:16,128 --> 00:42:16,768
I loved it.

723
00:42:16,958 --> 00:42:21,336
I tried the app as well, and I mean, I'm leery personally of kind

724
00:42:21,336 --> 00:42:25,036
of, um, the hardware wallet that has its own app coming from the,

725
00:42:25,036 --> 00:42:30,016
um, uh, well, the aforementioned, uh, company that, that got hacked.

726
00:42:30,036 --> 00:42:32,516
They've, they've, they've got all of their, uh, they send

727
00:42:32,516 --> 00:42:34,386
all your data, uh, back to that

728
00:42:34,721 --> 00:42:36,551
They had it on a ledger, I think.

729
00:42:36,991 --> 00:42:37,801
Yes, exactly.

730
00:42:37,801 --> 00:42:38,621
I have it on a ledger.

731
00:42:38,881 --> 00:42:43,851
Uh, but, but the, uh, the, um, uh, the Bitbox app, it's, it's

732
00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:45,661
also fully open source, right?

733
00:42:45,661 --> 00:42:50,261
And, and it's, it's, uh, uh, you can know exactly what's, what's going on with that.

734
00:42:50,261 --> 00:42:51,541
So that put me at ease.

735
00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:56,681
Um, and, and, so, I mean, I really get the feeling that it's, it's, uh,

736
00:42:57,101 --> 00:43:02,096
um, It's, it's made to be easy to use, but also have the features and

737
00:43:02,096 --> 00:43:05,546
functionality for the So-called Power users who really know what they're doing

738
00:43:05,546 --> 00:43:07,016
and wanna do something a specific way.

739
00:43:07,021 --> 00:43:12,386
So was was that part of the, uh, the idea or like, uh, like, I'm, I'm impressed

740
00:43:12,391 --> 00:43:14,276
by the, the, the flexibility of it.

741
00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:18,296
Like the, the ability that the, the platform that you, you have to be able to

742
00:43:18,296 --> 00:43:20,936
add the things that people are requesting.

743
00:43:21,631 --> 00:43:25,131
There was, there was some, um, script functionality I think we were

744
00:43:25,131 --> 00:43:28,861
talking about on, on Madera that had just been requested by someone

745
00:43:28,861 --> 00:43:29,951
and then it's added like that.

746
00:43:29,981 --> 00:43:30,611
That's impressive.

747
00:43:30,611 --> 00:43:35,241
So yeah, how did, how did that kind of, uh, uh, get developed in

748
00:43:35,241 --> 00:43:36,941
your, your development philosophy?

749
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,400
yeah, I guess one of the ideas is, um, yeah, we want to want to be

750
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,425
the place for, I guess, We call it the Crypto Curious, um, to kind

751
00:43:46,425 --> 00:43:48,505
of, uh, come and be comfortable.

752
00:43:49,335 --> 00:43:52,365
And part of that is, you know, hiding all these details.

753
00:43:52,425 --> 00:43:54,045
Uh, but they're still there.

754
00:43:54,255 --> 00:43:54,435
Yeah.

755
00:43:54,435 --> 00:43:55,545
We have expert settings.

756
00:43:55,545 --> 00:43:57,555
And so all the expert settings are there.

757
00:43:58,065 --> 00:44:00,405
Coin control can connect your own node.

758
00:44:00,905 --> 00:44:02,615
Um, you're talking about mini script?

759
00:44:02,765 --> 00:44:03,695
Uh, probably.

760
00:44:04,265 --> 00:44:08,435
Uh, and so yeah, we, we have some engineers who've, um, yeah, contributed

761
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,505
to Bitcoin core and so they kind of.

762
00:44:11,851 --> 00:44:15,251
their weekend hobbies will be to implement it because they want it.

763
00:44:17,978 --> 00:44:22,268
that's kind of how, how all the, all these things get stuck in there.

764
00:44:22,368 --> 00:44:23,818
Of course, we do listen to users.

765
00:44:23,818 --> 00:44:27,410
And so, we do want the Bitbox to be not only like your, your

766
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:28,860
starter, but it can grow with you.

767
00:44:28,860 --> 00:44:29,790
It can educate you.

768
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,900
We have like in app, in our app itself, we have in app guide.

769
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000
contextual guides to kind of show you about different

770
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,300
functions and teach you things.

771
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,480
Uh, we spend a lot of time with blogs and our knowledge base to educate people.

772
00:44:42,003 --> 00:44:46,133
and so we're, we're happy to also kind of, you know, grow, grow

773
00:44:46,133 --> 00:44:49,343
together, grow with you, help you, help you on your, your path.

774
00:44:49,443 --> 00:44:53,403
And that means, uh, being exposed to some of these more advanced, uh,

775
00:44:53,973 --> 00:44:57,433
uh, features that, you know, can be, can be important in different times.

776
00:44:58,448 --> 00:45:00,708
And how does that relate to also the security?

777
00:45:00,708 --> 00:45:06,028
Because none of these features on top of that compromise the core

778
00:45:06,028 --> 00:45:08,008
security of the wallet, right?

779
00:45:08,603 --> 00:45:08,873
Yeah.

780
00:45:09,173 --> 00:45:13,873
So, um, when it comes to security, we try to, we try to implement it.

781
00:45:14,513 --> 00:45:19,713
Uh, under the hood, I would say, and so I had mentioned this, um, uh, anticlepto,

782
00:45:19,823 --> 00:45:25,106
uh, thing before, um, and so that's really all under the hood and it's, um, it's

783
00:45:25,106 --> 00:45:30,176
basically, yeah, we also kind of have, um, yeah, security in depth kind of field,

784
00:45:30,656 --> 00:45:35,696
uh, where part of our philosophy is, um, try to minimize the amount of trust you

785
00:45:35,696 --> 00:45:42,756
need to be, you need to put into any one aspect of Of course, if you buy hardware,

786
00:45:42,966 --> 00:45:46,476
there's always gonna be some level of trust, but, you know, open source, uh,

787
00:45:46,556 --> 00:45:48,266
so we can have some accountability.

788
00:45:48,396 --> 00:45:51,586
So if something does happen, you can trace it back to where it did happen.

789
00:45:52,204 --> 00:45:56,194
and, uh, you know, community, uh, we have a bug bounty program, so

790
00:45:56,194 --> 00:45:59,244
people are welcome to go and hack the code and try to find, uh,

791
00:45:59,294 --> 00:46:01,144
issues, which we very much welcome.

792
00:46:01,807 --> 00:46:06,777
yeah, the anti klepto part is actually, um, if you don't trust

793
00:46:06,777 --> 00:46:07,987
the hardware wallet itself.

794
00:46:08,264 --> 00:46:14,234
and so, uh, for example, So, uh, when you do cryptographic signatures, like really,

795
00:46:14,234 --> 00:46:16,604
really important aspect is randomness.

796
00:46:16,954 --> 00:46:17,744
It's called entropy.

797
00:46:17,984 --> 00:46:21,634
Um, and so it's not only when you first create your wallet,

798
00:46:21,634 --> 00:46:23,304
it's also when you do signatures.

799
00:46:24,274 --> 00:46:28,512
And so, um, there's a way to do it deterministically that works really well.

800
00:46:28,772 --> 00:46:32,002
Um, but if you don't trust that that's happening in the hardware wallet,

801
00:46:32,032 --> 00:46:35,762
you can supply external entropy, external randomness, in addition,

802
00:46:36,222 --> 00:46:39,392
in a really clever way that's provable that it was actually used.

803
00:46:39,867 --> 00:46:46,177
Um, in the signature, and so, um, we have the, our app itself,

804
00:46:46,367 --> 00:46:50,597
um, also does some sanity checks on the hardware wallet itself.

805
00:46:51,097 --> 00:46:55,667
Uh, so in this aspect with respect to signatures, in another aspect where we

806
00:46:55,667 --> 00:47:00,097
have, um, what we call an attestation key, which is basically, um, a secret loaded in

807
00:47:00,097 --> 00:47:06,277
the secure element that, um, can detect if there's a counterfeit device, and so the

808
00:47:06,287 --> 00:47:11,477
app will send a challenge, It should get the right, um, response back using this,

809
00:47:11,507 --> 00:47:15,757
uh, private key in the secure element, uh, in order to detect counterfeit devices.

810
00:47:15,757 --> 00:47:17,807
And so, yeah, we do a lot of these things.

811
00:47:17,997 --> 00:47:21,107
Um, if you're a user, you don't have to worry about all of it.

812
00:47:21,227 --> 00:47:24,977
Just, you know, if a warning pops up, read it, um, basically.

813
00:47:25,613 --> 00:47:29,693
and then a lot of the, like, the optional features, the expert features,

814
00:47:29,723 --> 00:47:34,313
I would say those are probably more related to privacy, uh, than security.

815
00:47:34,923 --> 00:47:39,053
Um, and so coin control, for example, you can choose which coins to, uh,

816
00:47:39,133 --> 00:47:44,303
spend from so that you don't mix coins together for, uh, tracking on

817
00:47:44,303 --> 00:47:45,833
chain analysis, things like that.

818
00:47:46,883 --> 00:47:49,253
You can connect your own full nodes, so you can be confident that

819
00:47:49,903 --> 00:47:54,873
no one else is peeping in on your transactions, and so on and so on.

820
00:47:55,003 --> 00:47:55,043
I

821
00:47:56,078 --> 00:47:56,618
that's great.

822
00:47:56,688 --> 00:48:00,868
I remember back in the day when, when paper wallets was sort of still a thing.

823
00:48:01,058 --> 00:48:05,048
I, I don't, I don't hear anyone using paper wallets anymore, but there

824
00:48:05,048 --> 00:48:09,298
were these websites where you could create your own, um, paper wallets.

825
00:48:09,318 --> 00:48:14,638
And the thing you did was you went offline and then just moved your mouse and that

826
00:48:14,698 --> 00:48:17,660
added the entropy, Uh, it's pretty cool.

827
00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:19,690
Uh, yeah.

828
00:48:19,710 --> 00:48:22,850
I wonder if those are ever coming back as a, as a thing.

829
00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:28,752
don't think so, basically because with a paper wallet, you think it's on a piece

830
00:48:28,752 --> 00:48:32,852
of paper, so it's offline, but the problem comes when you want to spend your coins.

831
00:48:34,672 --> 00:48:38,862
So there's, as far as I understand, there's really no way to manually

832
00:48:39,262 --> 00:48:42,852
sign a transaction because it's so complicated, so computationally intensive.

833
00:48:43,432 --> 00:48:45,602
Uh, and so you need some kind of tool to do that.

834
00:48:45,912 --> 00:48:48,382
And so if you have a paper wallet and you want to spend those coins, you

835
00:48:48,382 --> 00:48:53,182
need to load up your secret into some type of device in order to spend it.

836
00:48:53,752 --> 00:48:55,002
You need to swipe it.

837
00:48:55,072 --> 00:48:56,342
It's the terminology,

838
00:48:56,432 --> 00:48:57,192
you need to swipe it.

839
00:48:57,192 --> 00:49:00,142
And so if you're using a computer or a phone, it's going to be on your computer

840
00:49:00,142 --> 00:49:01,922
and phone, uh, after you swipe it.

841
00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:04,262
So, that kind of defeats the whole purpose.

842
00:49:05,327 --> 00:49:08,707
Of course, you minimize the time it's exposed, but, you know, malware is

843
00:49:08,707 --> 00:49:11,807
getting smarter and smarter if it detects it, it's going to take it.

844
00:49:13,197 --> 00:49:16,247
And so you still, you need a harder wallet to spend it.

845
00:49:16,652 --> 00:49:22,492
I'll, I'll have to see if there I have any paper wallets left in a drawer somewhere.

846
00:49:23,282 --> 00:49:26,582
Yeah, so the security discussion is fantastic.

847
00:49:26,582 --> 00:49:31,712
I mean, device security is such a difficult area these days.

848
00:49:31,732 --> 00:49:35,382
As you say, the adversaries are getting more and more sophisticated.

849
00:49:35,382 --> 00:49:37,082
And when we're talking about money, Bitcoin.

850
00:49:37,862 --> 00:49:41,682
Uh, yeah, it's just an incentive to just take whatever is possible.

851
00:49:41,682 --> 00:49:47,112
So yeah, keeping, keeping the, uh, so called keys separate from

852
00:49:47,112 --> 00:49:50,472
the, the, um, from the computer.

853
00:49:50,512 --> 00:49:51,832
Very, very important.

854
00:49:52,162 --> 00:49:55,732
And maybe this is sort of a philosophical question, sort of in

855
00:49:55,732 --> 00:49:58,812
the hardware wallet space or idea.

856
00:49:59,252 --> 00:50:01,132
What do you think of the term hardware wallet?

857
00:50:01,612 --> 00:50:05,632
Should we be using a different term, such as signing device or

858
00:50:05,652 --> 00:50:07,262
keychain or something like that?

859
00:50:07,775 --> 00:50:09,705
yeah, semantic question.

860
00:50:10,975 --> 00:50:11,475
Harder wallet.

861
00:50:11,505 --> 00:50:15,725
I know a lot of people are calling it cold wallet now as opposed to hot wallet,

862
00:50:15,725 --> 00:50:18,045
which I think kind of makes sense.

863
00:50:19,375 --> 00:50:22,445
But yeah, the term wallet itself.

864
00:50:23,390 --> 00:50:28,400
Yeah, it's a misnomer, of course, um, you know, talking about

865
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,870
customer support questions.

866
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:34,300
Um, a lot of it comes around this, the, the term wallet, where

867
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,620
people are saying, oh, they assume their bitcoins are in the wallet.

868
00:50:38,030 --> 00:50:40,550
You know, we have this micro SD card for backups.

869
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:43,050
They think every time they make a transaction, they need to stick the

870
00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:46,140
micro SD card in in order to backup the transaction, but you don't.

871
00:50:46,929 --> 00:50:51,584
and they think, yeah, for example, If they're receiving coins, they need to

872
00:50:51,584 --> 00:50:55,274
keep the hardware wallet plugged in until the coin, the transaction is confirmed

873
00:50:55,274 --> 00:50:58,974
because otherwise it's not going to get into the hardware wallet, into their

874
00:50:58,974 --> 00:51:01,874
wallet, and so that's not true also.

875
00:51:02,174 --> 00:51:07,204
So there's all these misconceptions around it that probably could be solved with a

876
00:51:08,324 --> 00:51:13,854
different name like, yeah, a keychain, because it's basically a chain of keys

877
00:51:13,854 --> 00:51:15,314
that give you access to the coins.

878
00:51:15,849 --> 00:51:20,279
Whereas the coins themselves are stored publicly on the blockchain,

879
00:51:20,339 --> 00:51:23,369
and your wallet, if it's a hardware wallet or software wallet, is

880
00:51:23,369 --> 00:51:25,639
just there to access those coins.

881
00:51:26,109 --> 00:51:29,539
Use the private key, so on your keychain, and unlock it so you

882
00:51:29,539 --> 00:51:30,549
can send it somewhere else.

883
00:51:31,019 --> 00:51:34,429
So yeah, maybe that would save our support staff some time.

884
00:51:36,174 --> 00:51:36,474
Yeah.

885
00:51:36,774 --> 00:51:40,434
Speaking of support, like, uh, yeah, I just remembered where I put all my

886
00:51:40,484 --> 00:51:45,364
paper wallets and they, they were on the boat that sank, uh, fortunately,

887
00:51:45,604 --> 00:51:51,144
but, but say if you had a paper wallet and you wanted to swipe it, uh, using

888
00:51:51,144 --> 00:51:53,494
the bit box, how would you go about it?

889
00:51:53,554 --> 00:51:54,854
Would you use Electrum?

890
00:51:54,854 --> 00:51:58,794
Would you use like the, your app or how would you do that?

891
00:51:58,854 --> 00:51:59,374
Like this is a.

892
00:52:01,009 --> 00:52:05,269
Pretend I'm a customer support customer here.

893
00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:10,339
Yeah, um, I used to do customer support, I don't do it anymore.

894
00:52:11,919 --> 00:52:15,290
But, um, the Bitbox app does not support sweeping.

895
00:52:16,225 --> 00:52:17,635
I'm at the moment, at least.

896
00:52:18,485 --> 00:52:22,185
So you'd have to use some third party app if it's Electrum or Sparrow or whatever.

897
00:52:22,625 --> 00:52:27,105
Um, and then what we would always recommend is, uh, once you sweep into

898
00:52:27,105 --> 00:52:32,855
that wallet, always to immediately send those coins to a hardware wallet because

899
00:52:32,885 --> 00:52:36,220
the The private key you swept is now hot.

900
00:52:36,770 --> 00:52:39,210
Consider it radioactive.

901
00:52:40,106 --> 00:52:42,296
Well, that sounds easy enough.

902
00:52:43,826 --> 00:52:48,436
Is there anything else we haven't talked about, Douglas or Luke?

903
00:52:48,506 --> 00:52:50,486
Like, is there anything else you want to bring up?

904
00:52:52,091 --> 00:52:57,701
I think we've covered quite a bit here, uh, so, uh, yeah, uh, Douglas, where,

905
00:52:57,951 --> 00:53:00,021
where can we direct our listeners to?

906
00:53:00,021 --> 00:53:04,881
I guess to the, to Bitbox, of course, and, uh, uh, everything

907
00:53:04,881 --> 00:53:08,211
there, but, uh, is there anywhere else you want to send our listeners?

908
00:53:08,769 --> 00:53:11,839
yeah, so, I mean, if you're interested in hearing more, um,

909
00:53:11,939 --> 00:53:12,899
we're happy to hear from you.

910
00:53:12,899 --> 00:53:15,199
If you have any feedback, if you want to read more, you can

911
00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:16,369
come to our website, bitbox.

912
00:53:16,899 --> 00:53:17,519
swiss.

913
00:53:18,001 --> 00:53:20,101
and you can find a bunch of links to our social media.

914
00:53:20,171 --> 00:53:24,071
So, we're on Twitter, we're on LinkedIn, Telegram channel.

915
00:53:24,642 --> 00:53:26,242
and we're happy, happy to hear from you.

916
00:53:27,162 --> 00:53:28,802
And of course, use bitbox.

917
00:53:28,802 --> 00:53:32,872
swiss slash freedom or use code freedom for a 5 percent discount.

918
00:53:33,022 --> 00:53:34,082
Absolutely.

919
00:53:35,132 --> 00:53:39,652
Well, yeah, Douglas, uh, any, any last, anything else you want, want to mention,

920
00:53:39,652 --> 00:53:41,582
I'll just reiterate that, um, from Knut.

921
00:53:42,093 --> 00:53:44,863
no, I think, um, it's been fun talking to you guys.

922
00:53:44,883 --> 00:53:48,313
So, really appreciate, um, You're having me on.

923
00:53:48,423 --> 00:53:50,683
I appreciate the hard work you guys are doing.

924
00:53:50,703 --> 00:53:56,666
Keep it up and best wishes for everyone's financial sovereignty, I guess.

925
00:53:57,514 --> 00:53:58,234
Fantastic.

926
00:53:58,254 --> 00:54:03,514
Well, thank you so much for, for joining us, uh, for making this fantastic

927
00:54:03,514 --> 00:54:08,094
product, uh, yeah, making people's lives easier in securing their Bitcoin.

928
00:54:08,144 --> 00:54:09,784
So that's fantastic.

929
00:54:09,784 --> 00:54:12,824
So looking forward to seeing you again, it's after this episode is out, but

930
00:54:12,824 --> 00:54:16,624
looking forward to seeing you and, uh, Uh, not even really, I guess a couple of

931
00:54:16,624 --> 00:54:18,754
weeks here in, or a week, a week even in

932
00:54:19,144 --> 00:54:19,604
A week.

933
00:54:19,604 --> 00:54:19,984
Yeah.

934
00:54:20,234 --> 00:54:20,864
Fantastic.

935
00:54:21,164 --> 00:54:21,874
time flies.

936
00:54:22,114 --> 00:54:22,654
Time flies.

937
00:54:23,044 --> 00:54:23,994
Or time fries.

938
00:54:24,284 --> 00:54:24,524
Yeah.

939
00:54:24,834 --> 00:54:25,754
Any last words, Knut?

940
00:54:26,874 --> 00:54:27,804
Any last words?

941
00:54:28,004 --> 00:54:28,334
Yes.

942
00:54:28,554 --> 00:54:29,424
Spadoinkle.

943
00:54:30,564 --> 00:54:31,904
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

944
00:54:31,914 --> 00:54:32,814
Thanks for listening.