Matteo, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.
Knut, thanks for having me. It's been a while.
It has been a while. I don't even remember, were we the Freedom Footprint show still when
you were last on? I can't remember. I think you were on when we had rebranded. And speaking
of rebrands, another one of my favorite Bitcoin apps has rebranded from Orange Pill app to
now Club Orange. Can you tell us a little bit about that, please?
Yes, well, you know, the number one reason why we rebranded is because my wife told me that she came up with the name Orange Pilab, which is not true.
I said, I'm going to change the name so you can't tell me this anymore.
No, I'm just kidding.
But she did actually claim that she was the creator of Orange Pilab.
But in any way, no, I mean, joking aside, Orange Pill Up was cool, but it has some issues that, you know, the biggest one was basically that it was getting misspelled all the time in ways that you can't even believe it.
So one time I went to an accountant here in LA, right?
So English speaking, I'm almost English speaking person.
And, you know, I was given the name of the company, Orange Pill Up, right?
and he wrote orange obviously you can't misspell that t-i-l-l and then up up till i'm like yeah i'm
like okay this is a sign if the guy in front of me cannot you know whatever so anyway so
yeah people will misspell p-i-l-l-e-d so number one the misspelling was a problem number two
the length was the problem in fact people would start calling opa which is cool obviously it's a
cool it's a cool uh you know acronym problem is if you go on google or in the app store or anywhere
or twitter or nostor wherever you go and you type opa nothing comes up you wouldn't find orange
collab and then the last point was the word peel it was it's it's it wasn't exactly the best word
to have in a in a social network it kind of sounded like a pharmacy or some drugs you know
whatever so anyway so we decided to we decided to change the name we went on a journey of discovery
and we come out with so many names you were in the group chat so you might remember some
and then eventually we landed on club orange which i think is pretty cool the main advantage is
number one you cannot misspell club like how do you say club in swedish
so it's very similar yeah italian club french club spanish club so it's very easy to uh to get it
also it's kind of also gives like more of a it's funny because in the onboarding of the app
since we launched, we said we created a private club for big corners. So the word club has been
there since the beginning. But we never, you know, we never use it. So a club is more like
open. It's more like France community belonging than Orange Peel. So I think, you know, I think
it works better. And what I'm, you know, what I'm really surprised is all the feedback that I got.
maybe people just want to be nice. I don't know. But everybody says it's a great name. I love it.
So the feedback has been great. And you know, Club Orange is the name.
Yeah. And Club doesn't mean grandfather in German, which Opa does.
It's funny because my daughter has a grandfather, of course, my wife's father,
which is American by of German origin. And she called him Opa.
Is he on Orangeville or is he on Club Orange?
He's the, he, you know, he's the stuff, he owns a bank. So I preemptively ban him from joining the
app. And you got a Club Orange sweater on that must be new. And that's a very cool design. So
So it has the logo, which is the intersection of an actual orange,
but the sweater has the lower part as a sunset, right?
With a boat or something in the way.
I didn't make this.
Somebody on the app made it.
Yeah, the logo essentially, if you want to talk about the logo,
the logo originally was an orange with the slices.
I remember that group chat too.
Right.
but then I'm like I don't know you know it's too much orange uh orange not the word not the color
that the the fruit which has nothing to do with the app or bitcoin or anything and so I went so I
start playing with the with the slices and then I remove one I say oh okay this is pretty cool
because it's like a keyhole it's a lighthouse yeah so I think it works I think it's a nice logo
actually. It sure does. And yeah, here's a disclaimer for people who don't know. I've been
an advisor for Club Orange or formerly Orange Pill App now for almost three years, I think.
And we have this, and it's a great group of advisors. We have these wonderful meetings
every month where we brainstorm new ideas for the app. So a lot has happened since Orange Pill App
was first launched. It's really a completely different app at this point, I would say.
And I love some of the features of it.
I love the wallet that has been there for a while now.
I also love that it's super simple.
I love the group chats and the feel of the thing, the events,
how easily you can find not only other Bitcoiners, but merchants.
And I do see more people on it wherever I go.
And as you know, I travel quite a lot and there's always like more and more Bitcoiners close by than the last time I checked wherever I go.
So it's pretty cool to see it.
And also there's some misconceptions about the app.
The first thing is that, Matteo, is it a gay dating app?
No, it's not a gay dating app.
It can be used as such, though, if you're in need of a gay dating app.
This is probably the best app for that purpose.
So not excluding anyone.
Oh, my God.
Well, the joke is that it's a dating app only if you're good looking.
So it would be for you, not for me.
But, you know, you know this, but maybe people don't know.
somebody got married through the app um two years ago and now they have a baby i hope they call him
matteo i don't know yeah nice yeah oh and but it's not it's not it's a woman and man it's woman and
man just for the record for the record yeah yeah but uh it's uh yeah you know it's a social network
and uh when you put when you put people together somebody's gonna date somebody's gonna build a
business. Somebody is going to make friends. Somebody is going to start some sport team.
You know, it's, it's about putting people together and, uh, you know, and that's, I think for
me, that's where the magic happens instead of being online all the time and being on
Twitter all the time and listening to the podcast and the YouTube. And, you know, I think the
magic it's like, so I have a meetup, obviously have a meetup every Saturday morning, uh,
9am. I think I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the planet that has a meetup on Saturday at 9
in the morning. Every week, by the way, it's a weekly meetup. And we got seven, 10, sometimes 15
people. And it's the best part of the week for me. It's like go out, you talk to the kids. And
also the cool part is that sometimes we don't even talk about Bitcoin. It's just a friend's
a way to meet with your friends with the excuse of Bitcoin.
And Bitcoin is kind of the filter, you know, and then you already know you're on the same page
on a lot of subjects that you don't have to go through. Like if you meet a stranger,
you know, it might be a liberal or a Republican or a vegan or a car, you know,
it's the process is long to say, oh, okay, I actually like this guy. Let's be friends.
And when you go through Bitcoin, and you had this beautiful phrase that we used to have
on our website, that when you go through the journey and the rabbit hole and the loneliness
and being ridiculed by pretty much everybody, especially even today, honestly, but especially
a few years ago, it kind of selects you and what kind of person you are.
And so it's very cool when you can meet other people that are on the same journey as you,
you know, in person, you know, especially.
Yeah, I think the quote, my quote that you had on the website was something about how
you can skip all the bullshit about the weather and go straight into like Hegelian philosophy
or quantum mechanics or whatever you want to talk about.
Like you can, you can, you can skip, skip the bullshit basically.
Yes, yes.
Not saying you have to talk about super intellectual stuff, but with Bitcoiners, I find it easier to not talk about superficial things.
That's what separates Bitcoiners from others, I think.
The conversations are never superficial.
I think there's, you know, because honestly, I mean, if you're a Bitcoiner or a Bitcoin maxi, you must have rejected a lot of mainstream ideas.
And so by default, you're very open-minded to new ideas, you know, like you're in a very special category of people that basically have rejected a lot of what comes from mainstream media and academia and science and all that kind of, you know, that kind of fiat world.
And so it's, yeah, it's very intellectually, how would you say, stimulating.
Yeah, it's selects for people who are more immune to politicized things to talk about, or politicized opinions or politicized anything. It's more for people who see through that veil.
And yeah, like Bitcoin itself, Bitcoiners are more apolitical than most.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so yeah, and there are a ton of other cool features and we'll get to that soon.
The video chatting and the tap saps is one of my favorite new features.
But let's like tell people what this thing is and how it works today.
So the first thing that differentiates Orange Pill App from other social media networks is that there's no feed.
So this is not for you to get hooked to an algorithm.
That's not the purpose of the app at all.
There is no algorithm.
No, there is no algorithm.
But it's a paid app, so there's a small fee every month, or you can pay a yearly membership, and you can still buy a lifetime membership, I believe, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Of course.
and all you have to give up to sign up is an email address.
And that might be any email address.
That's the only information you collect about the user, right?
Or an Oster MPUB, which is even more private.
And there's no default sharing of your location or anything like that.
You can share your location if you want,
and then other people see a circle, right?
Tell us about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, number one, yes, you can sign out with the email.
Obviously, you can make one app or not through AMP up, which is even more, I guess, private.
And so basically, the choice is to the user what they want to disclose.
They can use their name.
They can use no name or their pictures, whatever.
Now, when it comes to the location, number one, we never show locations.
We only show distances.
Now, distances can be turned off.
which means I don't know how far you are from me, right?
Which is kind of the point of the app
because, you know, the goal of the app is to find people
that are in your vicinity so that you can meet them.
So obviously we need to know roughly where you are.
We asked the user approximate location,
which is a 10 miles radius, which is very wide.
But we have made that, now we have made that optional
a few months ago because now we have enough features
that don't require the location.
like for example the wallet, the group chats, that kind of stuff.
So the user can allow location, which again is approximate.
We never show it. We only show the distances, which by the way,
we also approximate the distances on top of the approximation of the location It very let say it very approximate In fact people used to be upset how approximate this thing is Say no wait a second I was in India and now I in America but it still showed me as India
I'm like, did you open the app?
Because we don't do ads, right?
We don't do ads because the business model is very simple.
You pay to use the product, so you're not the product.
And so because we don't do ads, we don't care about your location when you're not using the app.
So if you fly and you don't open the app, we use your, it's called last known location.
I mean, people used to be upset about this stuff in the other direction.
Like I said, well, if you open the app, then we, you know, we check your new location and we show you nearby events, merchants, and obviously people, Bitcoiners.
So that's the main goal of the app is a social network, not a social media.
So media means there is a feed, there is some media to consume.
That's the definition of social media.
Social network, which used to be, by the way, social network used to be Facebook and Twitter
used to be social network because all you can see is your friends.
Now it's like, now it's like, you don't see, now you don't see your friends.
You see whatever the algo wants you to see.
Yeah, it's more media than social.
Yeah, exactly.
It's the new media essentially.
But we believe, yeah, we go in the opposite direction essentially.
We just said, okay, I think we've reached peak online.
In fact, if you look at the stats, the trend is going down, especially with AI, it's going
to be even more offline economy.
So I like to think about the online economy and the offline economy.
And I think for the past 20 years, if you were betting on the online economy, it was
the bet to be.
It was the good bet.
Going forward, I think the offline economy, the restaurants, the theater, the concerts,
the conference, the meetup, the fitness, all these kind of industries, they're going to
boom because AI, so essentially that we're not going to be able to compete with AI online.
slop like if there's more slop than people don't exactly like what's the point like i don't care
about what chadgpt thinks about bitcoin honestly i care about what newt cares i care about what newt
thinks about bitcoin i don't care about chadgpt opinion of bitcoin but if i i'm on twitter or
and I don't know if I'm looking at Knut feed
or Knut AI agent feed,
then it's kind of like lose the whole value.
Yeah.
Cleb slop beats AI slop any day.
Yes.
True Cleb slop for the win.
In real life slop beats AI slop.
Yeah, so the point of Clarence is again,
it's a it's a the technical definition is a location based social network so you download
the app you sign up you paid so by the way the reason why we charge there's a paywall is so we
don't have bots and scammers and spammers which of course is a huge problem with social net
and you know even even we get some that's crazy to me it was crazy like
we are a small niche app everybody has to pay there is no free trials
even we you know because now we got so many members we still get some spammers and scammers
every now and then you must think like how big is that problem when there is no paywall it's just
like incredible yeah yeah yeah so but there is no befriend function on club orange right you you
don't you can start a conversation with people but there's no database tracking who knows who
no no no that's yeah exactly there is no follow right no the only thing you can do is connect and
have a conversation yeah but you can also see which groups you you have in common i guess
yeah so there is some web of trust to it in the in that sense if you belong to right because
there's a lot of communities on there so you can join a lot of different i'm in a group for instance
called Bitcoin Writing and Books. And there's a bunch of people in there. So if you want to,
I'm not advocating for anyone doing this, but if you want to meet a random Bitcoiner in a dark alley
to sell some dirty fiat, there are some ways of getting to know the person first. I mean,
it's a very good app for getting to know one another. You can, for instance, have a video
call with the person like all the features of like a signal or a whatsapp are on orange pill
app and more you can actually zap people tap zapping it's called where you just tap your
screen and you instantly send one set per tap to the other person i think that's a very neat
function and that is one of the the cool zapping functions the other is geo zapping tell us more
about that, please.
So we launched a wallet in February.
Somebody said, well, wouldn't it be cool
if you can zap people based on the location
since we have that data, right?
So that's a cool idea.
So we built this thing called GeoZap,
which is essentially you can type in the wallet
a city, a state, a country, a continent,
or earth, and you zap everybody on earth.
my dream is that one day you can zap somebody on mars if you live long enough
you can zap somebody on mars it would take like seven minutes ten minutes to get it but you know
but anyway so might work with the custodial lightning but not on chain that's not very
feasible you know because of the center of hash of course but that's a different discussion
I remember the article
yeah no exactly
yeah custodial
GeoZap couldn't work if you don't do custodial
you know that's a lot of things
it's a trade off essentially
but obviously you can withdraw from the wallet
anytime
any amount
to your self custodial
node or wallet whatever it is
so GeoZap
essentially like
took over because now we have done
more than 3 million transactions
in 10 months. I think it makes us the fastest growing wallet, lighting wallet, pretty sure.
But anyway, so yeah, you can set up 16,000 people at once. You can set people in,
if there is a conference, you can set people in that city. The other cool part is that you can
add a message and a link. So we inadvertently created essentially an advertising platform on
Bitcoin. Yeah. And I've seen people use it several times, and I'm using it in the area I was in,
like in El Salvador last time, for instance, suddenly there's a GeoSAP in San Salvador about
some event going on there. So it's working. And if you think into the future a bit, this has
limitless potential. If there's a tsunami in fucking Bali or something, we could all,
Bitcoiners could come together and there could be a relief fund in seconds, literally.
It's super cool.
The potential is just limitless for a thing like that.
It's awesome.
Yes, the ability to unilaterally send sats to somebody without asking for an invoice,
an URL, you don't have to ask for anything.
If they're on the app and they enable the location, then you can zap that person.
An infinite amount of stats, an infinite amount of times, based on where they are.
I mean, approximately, obviously.
Imagine what kind of Pokemon game you could build on top of this.
Like, it's insane.
Yeah.
Truly insane.
Instead of, you know, fetching virtual eggs in a cafe somewhere, you could actually get paid.
And geocaching, you remember that?
when you walked around and found goodies and stuff in reality through some...
I never played Pokemon, but I got the ideas.
You could do...
This was not Pokemon.
Geocaching was another thing.
So it's another game which was combined reality with internet stuff.
So someone planted a little bag of goodies or something or things
and hid it from everyone else and then put out the location of the thing
and others had to find it through this app.
Wow.
This could be done with, definitely be done.
I mean, you could put a paper wallet or an open dime.
We could do something easier.
We could say, if you go to this location, automatically you get a thousand sets.
Yeah, exactly.
And if you read this message on this paper at this location, you get another thousand sets.
Yeah, there's so many.
Yeah, there's so many things we can do.
So this is merely the beginning of something big, I think.
Yeah.
And there are so many, like this is such a cool app,
especially the filtering function of having it a paid thing,
because it's not much, but you do get rid of all the spammers
and you get the Bitcoiner to Shitcoiner ratio
is like just through the roof if you compare it to X, for instance.
Yeah. So the analogy I tell when I talk to investor, say, imagine I tell you, hey, I love to play basketball. And you say, oh, me too. Then I show up with a tennis racket. That'll never happen, right? Because we both know what basketball is and how it works. But in Bitcoin, you can say, I love Bitcoin. I say, me too. And then I start talking about NFT or Solana.
It's very common.
So this is like in this community of crypto slash Bitcoin,
because obviously in crypto, everybody has Bitcoin.
Yeah.
All of them.
That's the base.
That's the point of crypto scams, to get people's Bitcoins.
Yeah, exactly.
And so there is this dynamic where you can say,
yes, I have Bitcoin, but I'm also a shitconer.
So yeah, actually, honestly, the reason why I built this idea
because I went to a Bitcoin meetup three years ago now, more, maybe four.
And it was a Bitcoin meetup.
And then I went there, drove an hour, and then it was like NFT,
Ethereum, this was like 20.
Yeah.
And I'm like, wow, what a waste of time.
And that's actually how I started thinking about this problem.
And then I eventually landed on the social network.
So the question for me was, how do I prevent this app to become like that meetup?
And I don't know if you know this, but at some point I was going to do a test to sign up.
I didn't have the paywall idea yet.
I had a 60 second test.
Like, you know, how many, what's the maximum supply of Bitcoin?
What's the halving block?
And then I figure, well, you could cheat this game.
And then what if you're a newbie and you just want to learn about Bitcoin, then you can't sign up.
Eventually landed on the paywall. But, you know, yeah, I mean, also the paywall is like Bitcoin.
When you think about it, a Bitcoin works because it's not free. Everybody has to pay. Whether you're
a sailor or a player with 1 million sats, the network doesn't care how many Bitcoins you have.
have. If you want to use the network, you have to pay the fees. There's no discrimination.
There is no advantages. It's very, so it's kind of the same. Honestly, it's kind of the
same concept. If you want to use Club Orange, you have to pay. And then you know that everybody
has also paid, which gives you more confidence to then meet them and start a relationship,
whatever it may be.
So it's proof of work, essentially.
It is, and proof of results, which is my preferred term.
So yeah, and how much is the membership nowadays?
I can't remember.
It's based by geography.
Generally speaking, let's say in the US, in the US is $5 a month, $40 a year, and the
lifetime, which is very cheap, it's $100.
So you can pay once and be done.
By the way, you can pay in Bitcoin, but Apple and Google don't let us tell you once you sign
up.
So you have to do on the website because people tell me all the time, oh, why can I pay in
Bitcoin?
I said, well, I wish we could take Bitcoin on the hour.
It would be amazing.
You can pay in Bitcoin if you go on cluborange.org and there is a giga chat membership, which
is like, you know, you can pay extra basically.
You don't get anything more like a donation.
Not at the moment, but maybe in the future.
I guess.
Yeah, we're actually going to
we're actually going to have a special
membership,
which is in the work right now,
which is going to be very expensive.
But it's not through the app.
It's not through apps.
It's kind of like a like a like a
VIP area of the Club
Orange but you can get a giga show membership today I think it And some people do you know they just want to support the mission I guess Maybe you get access to a lounge area or something in the future
Yes, yes, yes.
Maybe there's some special events.
Who knows?
Fantastic.
I mean, there's infinite potential in this.
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yeah so so speaking of this google the app store and the play store here and the barriers to entry
and how you can't use sets because of this jurisdiction this is where my ancap hat comes
on again. And think about how much innovation all of this interventionism from the state
just hinders by putting up these barriers everywhere. And Google and Apple have to
play ball and they have to follow suit and just do whatever each jurisdiction's financial
bullshit tells them to do, which means it's harder to innovate because we don't dare to
build products that send and receive sets completely freely without any worry we can do
it to a certain extent but it's it's kind of crazy when you think about it like that and i know a
couple of apps that don't even try to get onto these play stores and app stores because of that
because they they need to be and then of course the reach is like nothing in comparison to if they
would have been on the stores you have any thoughts about that well i can tell you so we have a web
app. We have a web app, which is kind of fully developed. You can't do exactly everything,
but you can do a lot. You can use the wallet. You can use the messages. You can address
VPU2 events. So we have a web app and it's like, so we have 19,000 members on Club Orange now.
And every day we get, let's say a thousand people using the app, right? 1000, maybe 2000.
the web app is 10 people one is me one is my developer so it's like nobody uses it yeah so
i mean the rich you know yeah people want to use up that's that's the thing that i've learned
an app is just so convenient it's on your phone so you don't have to log in to a website
yeah i mean when it comes to google and apple i think uh the problem with the payment is that
they can't take a cut. I don't think they care that much about
people paying Bitcoin. The problem is that they wouldn't be able to take a cut
like they can in the fiat world. Because essentially what happens is
in fact, when you sign up through Apple or Google
you don't even pay us, you pay them. Then they take a
cut and then they send us the money sometimes
60 days later. So your $5
dollars a month I'll get four 60 days later which obviously it's the biggest uh it's lost the economy
so much because I cannot reinvest I cannot hire people you know in Bitcoin I get paid immediately
no commission whatsoever um and I can redeploy the next minute essentially instead of waiting 60 days
you know they have the distribution of like billions of people on their ecosystem you have to play you
to play the game as they say on the field.
I would love, man, I would love that people could just click a button,
paying Bitcoin through the app.
That would make my life much easier.
I would get less email, less reviews that are negative
because we can't pay in Bitcoin.
I think eventually, you know, in the US, as you know,
the political wins, at least for now, are very pro-Bitcoin, pro-crypto.
So I wouldn't be shocked that at some point,
Apple or Google would allow people to use, I don't know, stable coins, for example.
I think stable coins are going to be used widely on the apps. Yeah, I think we're going in a world
of stable coins, to be honest with you. I don't know what you think of stable coins. Of course,
it's not Bitcoin. I think there is a use case for it. Yeah, I think there is somewhat
unfortunate, necessary stepping stone for many people and for things like Google and Apple too,
I guess before they but it's a step in the right direction and the wrong direction at the same time
if that can be true because they if they morph into CBDCs that's very bad but if they just more
can stay what they are and faster fiat that's better I mean it's already a CBDC if you're
using a credit card or a debit card right yeah exactly it's a gateway to Bitcoin I think it's
also a gateway to Bitcoin because it's like, oh, okay, so I can use money on the blockchain.
Now I can also, once you get people to that place that they use the blockchain, it's easier
for them to understand, I think the value of Bitcoin, which is on the blockchain.
It's like a stepping stone.
Okay.
I don't have to use my credit card anymore.
I can use this USDT, USDC.
I think it's a gateway to Bitcoin.
blockchain is a dangerous word though like it can also lead to shit coinery like i prefer time
of course but you know stable coins don't have a time chain if you're talking to the masses you know
it's uh you know you have to start from blockchain right yeah yeah that's another thing blockchain
that's another thing with the word orange pill it's it's very common amongst bitcoiners every
Every Bitcoiner knows what orange pilling someone needs and what it means, but no one
outside of Bitcoin knows at all what it means.
They don't even know what red pill or they haven't seen the matrix.
It's kind of ridiculous.
Yeah.
Yes.
I remember when we got shut down by orange in the phone company, they shut us down, crazy
story.
I wrote an email, an open letter where I talk about the matrix. I say, maybe these guys have
never watched the matrix. So let me tell them about the matrix. Yeah. That was a crazy story.
That was a crazy 35 days. Yeah. I remember that. That was weird.
Yeah. In retrospect, we should have changed the name back then, you know, but I like a fight.
And it's such a great example of how intellectual property laws are bullshit to begin with.
I mean, if you're big enough, you can just create these artificial monopolies and defend
a word like orange.
Like orange is a word that should be usable by anyone on the planet because it means orange.
It's a color and a fruit.
What?
Yeah, no.
Yeah, it's a strange world.
Obviously, I'm very now like I've learned a lot because of the incident.
You can honestly, you can just so you know, two companies can use Orange
as long as the class is different.
So class or company.
Yeah. So essentially you can have a company called Orange that does
pizza. Plumbing.
Or plumbing or blockchains, but not.
Not a telecommunication company.
So it's not as bad as it sounds, but yeah, it was an education for sure.
In fact, now that we have this new name, I don't even know if I want to get a trademark.
Because last time we did that, we opened a kind of worm there.
I don't know.
Yeah.
yeah no like i say the only reason to get a trademark is to stop others from getting your
trademark before you do like and it creates this weird incentive to chase something that's basically
also you know you could you could also you know you could say that it's not just that it's also
like somebody could create an app called club orange that does exactly the same thing and then
confuse people
and maybe instead of Bitcoin is about
shitcoin
you know there's also
Bitcoin.com is a
very
good example of that that had nothing
to do with Bitcoin and
the Bitcoin handle on
X same thing there had nothing
to do with Bitcoin the point is
there's no seal there's no seal of Bitcoin
no no no so there's no one
can like counter sue them
or blockchain.info
had nothing to do with the actual blockchain.
Really?
Coinbase has nothing to do with Coinbase transactions.
There's a lot of confusion.
Yeah, there's a lot of confusion.
No.
Yeah.
But yeah, so we'll see if we get a trademark,
but I'm a little scar from the experience.
Yeah, I can imagine.
Anyway, it's a great app to have,
not only at conferences, of course,
but wherever you are in the world.
I guess you have the most users in the US, right?
So it's the app is-
Well, yeah.
So the split is like, obviously the US is the most, you know, there's 300 million people.
It's the most, I guess, crypto slash Bitcoin friendly country now and blah, blah, blah.
But we have a lot of Canadian, UK, Germany actually has a lot of Bitcoiners.
There's a lot of meetups in Germany.
And then it's Australia, Australia.
Also, countries like the Philippines.
There's a lot of people in the Philippines.
Obviously, El Salvador, you know.
Yeah, I mean, it's also like North Korea.
There's people in North Korea.
How many?
Three.
That's fantastic.
If you go to the wallet and you type North Korea,
you can zap people in North Korea.
and good luck to you i guess fantastic it's everywhere sometimes i'm like how do these
people even like like iceland saudi arabia it's it's iceland has a lot of mining yeah that's true
yeah yeah so is innovation easier now with this administration than the last one like do you think
Bitcoin companies have started to loosen up?
For sure, we wouldn't have launched a wallet
under the previous administration, for sure.
Yeah, it's definitely, I mean,
whether you like Trump or not,
it's obviously more crypto slash Bitcoin friendly,
like a lot more.
Literally in doing, you know,
it's definitely a new chapter.
in the US when it comes to Bitcoin. It might end in four years or three years, whatever it may be.
It might end. So you might want to do stuff while you can. But yeah, it's definitely more. I mean,
there's a story that I can tell now because it's almost public. I won't name the bank,
but I go to a coffee place with my daughter every Sunday and I met this woman. And one day I had a
a Bitcoin hat. Actually this one, this one right here, this Bitcoin hat. And so she goes like,
oh, are you in Bitcoin? Is that a Bitcoin hat? Yeah. Yeah. So we start talking. So they have
a Bitcoin company, et cetera, et cetera. And she basically told me that she's the head of crypto
of a major US bank. And they're about to launch Bitcoin custody to their retail.
Look, you know, so imagine Citibank is not Citibank, but it's much in Citibank.
It's just millions and millions.
Well, the banks are going to be allowed to people to store Bitcoin.
I mean, my dream is that I can spend Bitcoin from a card without, honestly, I mean, I know
you're not a fan of banks, but it's just the natural, I think it's the natural next step
that I can have my paycheck go to a bank account,
transfer into Bitcoin or not.
And then I can go and spend from that debit card
from my Bitcoin bonds without selling,
without thinking how much money.
So the Bitcoin bank sorry the banks are coming into the Bitcoin world in the US in a couple of months major banks But wouldn that have to mean that they would have to drop the capital gains tax
which they should in every country, but that's like the key.
Yeah, I know, I know.
That would be nice.
That would be very nice.
I don't know what's the, you know, I don't know behind the scenes what the discussion.
I would assume that if you let people use like major banks' cards to spend Bitcoin, eventually
they might say, okay, it's like a currency.
But it's definitely a way to entrench Bitcoin into the financial system.
So then it's in the interest of the banks, the governments to actually protect.
You know, maybe we can talk about this.
I have, I guess, a very unique view on quantum fund.
I don't know if you've seen it on X.
Everybody's super worried about quantum, right?
Yeah, I'm not.
Maybe you can tell me why, but let me tell you why I'm not.
I am not worried about quantum because I think there's only two entities
that can develop quantum computing capable of breaking ECTSA.
One is the Chinese government and one is the U.S. government.
It's not going to be knut in his basement for the quantum computing.
No, I'm not even trying.
No, but the point is, or even North Korea, right? I think that the mistake in quantum
FUD is thinking everybody's going to have quantum computing. No, it's not going to be like that.
It's going to be like kind of like the Manhattan Project. The US government is going to take over
quantum development from Google or Microsoft, whatever gets closer to the quantum, like a
real quantum because right now, quantum computing is more like a marketing thing.
And then the question is, why would the US government steal the Bitcoin? I don't see why
they would do it, especially if the Bitcoin is entrenched into the US financial system.
No, it would just reduce the value of the assets. So they'd probably be better off keeping whatever
they have than steal. Yeah, but why would they do it? What would be the incentive of them stealing it?
well same incentive as stealing all the gold
they've stalled over the last
hundred years
but the gold was back in the dollar
stealing is all they do
taxes and inflation
and so on
the gold was back in the dollar
that's why they had to steal the gold
you know
it's a different proposition
so devil's advocate that
why wouldn't they steal
stealing is all they do
because it's
If Bitcoin, by the time we get to, my argument is this, if by the time we get to quantum computing that is capable of breaking ECDSA, which is probably going to be 10 years, right?
Everybody thinks 10 years.
By then, Bitcoin is maybe a $10 or $23 million asset.
And maybe, I mean, there is ETF in the US.
BlackRock is a funnel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They would destroy a lot of things by doing that.
Correct.
But that's what I think.
That's my argument.
Well, I have an easier theory, and that is that quantum computing won't happen.
Not in the way we think, simply because it's just like life on Mars or the VR explosion.
It's been on the cover of every science magazine for 30 years or a theory of everything.
Like it's one of these headlines that never, never actually becomes a thing.
Yeah, well
Yeah, I mean, AI was also that way
And then, you know, we had some breakthrough
Yeah, yeah, AI is the exception to that, I guess
Then you can also say that, well
General, sentient AI is still, I think
A total science fiction
Because an AI cannot feel uneasy
And therefore it doesn't have agency
Because it cannot want anything
There is no agency at all
No, so it can be the perfect slave, but never its own master.
It can even be a slave because he can't feel anything.
It's just a tool.
Yeah.
Well, a tool is a slave in a sense, but a dead one.
So it doesn't hurt it to be a slave.
We are expanding the word slave.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The tool is a better word.
Yeah.
I've written a lot about that. All tools we ever invented have the same single purpose, is to save us time. Save someone time somewhere. So that's the purpose of even a Gucci handbag for a million dollars. It's saving that girl time.
To do what?
Find a billionaire mate.
Bingo.
Yeah, exactly.
Or it's a status signaling.
Yeah, yeah, and that is also a tool
In certain situations for a certain
Type of people, so that's why it exists
Of course, yeah, people
You know, I had this
Theory, I don't know if I ever told you
I think you would like this
One day, I was in New York, when I moved to New York
I don't know, 10 years ago now
I was, so I was walking
On the pavement
And I saw a homeless guy in front
Of a Rolex store
And I'm like
what's the point of Rolex?
Well, we could just give the money to the homeless guy.
And then I kept walking and I saw,
what is it called?
You know, this circle,
the thing that they put on the street
that you can remove to get on the piping?
What is it called?
Manhole.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Then I'm like,
oh, that's why you need Rolex.
If you don't have Rolex,
there's no guy building the manhole.
above certain threshold so here's my theory let's see if you like it if you don't have a
luxury segment of the economy or the entertainment segment of the economy then you don't have enough
incentive for people to go and do boring jobs or boring businesses like what is the point of
building manhole which obviously is very boring i'm just giving an example right above a threshold
where you have a house you have a car you can go vacation no you want to build more manhole or you
want to build them faster or you want to be cheaper so that you can afford rolex yeah i would add to
that though yeah yeah i would add to the theory that most of those are are not for the actual
thing itself but they are as you said before for signaling status and when you signal status you
can the hope is that you will one day mate with someone from that societal group or that you will
get to know more people from that societal group if that's a secondary goal maybe but it's all about
getting laid in the end probably all of these status things like more or less or networking
you know you go to a networking event you well dress people think oh this guy's money or this
guy is a successful person yeah you know that's the point of these status i guess you can call
this status economy that's why i love ending up in those in situations where those games are played
and completely not played at all like sailors parties for instance i don't give a shit about
no signaling or or like i'm just hanging out and it's fun like yeah and a lot of other bitcoiners
too. I'm not banging my own chest here. It's like you're hanging out there and, or for instance,
the dinner with Bukele, sort of same thing. Sure. There's a bit of gravitas to it and whatever,
but for the most part, Bitcoiners don't give a shit. We're unemployable. We don't chase these
things anymore and it's beautiful. Yeah. We had to be the own apps to get a job.
Yeah. So look, look what I found, by the way, stack friends who stack sats on one card and
you will meet Bitcoiners and you will be happy.
That's the first one.
That's the first card we haven't made.
On the backside, it has the equation the wrong way around.
Oh yeah, it's true.
21 million divided by everything.
Yeah, that's true.
It's a prototype.
I wasn't well-versed back then.
It's funny.
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and brush your teeth so yeah i i want to also like uh this is an area we haven't gone into
what's coming for for or for club orange i keep saying orange pillar i know trust me very much
what's what's in the pipe for uh uh in the pipeline for for club orange going into the future
I mean the biggest thing that we're building right now is the ticketing platform
You know we have events we have people going to events
Now we have a wallet so it's natural that we allow people to buy tickets
From the app through the app
Especially through the wallet I think what's really cool is because you have a wallet
If you have enough balance then you can buy a ticket
Obviously in Bitcoin with one click
without invoice, without LNURL.
You just, if you have enough balance,
you just, you know, you just,
we get the sales from you
and we give it to the organizer.
You know, we get a little commission.
So the ticketing is, by the way,
building a ticketing platform is a nightmare.
It's so complicated.
I thought that, you know,
we build a social network,
a messaging platform,
a wallet, geolocation,
push notification, all kinds.
I was like, okay, you know,
how hard can it be to build a ticketing platform?
platform, it is the hardest thing that we haven't built, but it has to be done.
So ticketing is going to be for 2026, our focus is like events, like give them events
organizer, another reason to use Club Orange and also kind of like closing the loop for
the members.
It's like down, they can do pretty much everything to the app.
They can find the event, they can buy a ticket, they can find a group shot for the event.
They can geodes up people to the group show, to the event.
So yeah, ticketing, I hope it's the final piece of the puzzle,
but every time I say that, six months later, I have another idea.
So, well, I'm sure there's something else to build.
I guess merchants also, it's very interesting to us.
Now Square has enabled, you know, in theory, millions of merchants.
I told Jack, you shouldn't have merchants enable it.
you should be enabled by default.
And then the user chooses
if they want to be in fear of Bitcoin.
There must be some regulation,
some reason they didn't do that.
But anyway, Square now in the US,
you can accept Bitcoin to a Square portal,
which is very cool.
And actually, I go to a coffee all the time now,
close to my house.
They take Bitcoin.
I met the owner.
The owner owns a Club Orange.
and so merchants I think maybe not in the short term but in the long term might be the biggest
thing that we do because obviously the you know the the bitcoin parallel economy
it would kind of be like massive at some point especially if they remove capital gain taxes right
then there is no reason not to use bitcoin but that's more down the line when it comes to like
the roadmap. So for now it's the events
ticketing. Then at some point
it's going to be, I mean, by the way
we already had the merchants on the app, right?
So you can create an account, you
can create group chats, you can build
up people and tell them about your store, the
promotion. But we're
not focusing on
merchants yet just because
that segment
is not very active.
But at some point it will be.
Square is definitely
a stepping stone.
Well, for a place like El Salvador, they're very active.
Have you been yet, by the way?
Not yet. I have to.
You should come down in January for the Plan B Forum.
Yes, I should be. I should.
Yeah, and take some more days if you can.
I know you're a family man, but if you have a couple of extra days,
especially coming from Europe,
it's like night and day.
Like here, if I tell people I work in Bitcoin
or do Bitcoin stuff,
they answer with at least suspicion,
like that I'm doing something dodgy.
And the governments themselves,
they do think I'm doing something dodgy.
I mean, you sort of feel like a semi-criminal,
even if you haven't done anything wrong.
Like it's Europe, exactly.
And the US is better,
but still you have cap gains taxes you have all sorts of sorts of just like in any other
so-called developed part of the world and then you come to el salvador and you're revered rather
than you know just treated with it's it's night and day man like and there are no yeah i should
no barriers to anything and club orange would there's such a great big market there maybe not
you know, money wise, but user wise, absolutely. Yeah. Everyone would want to be on our coverage.
I always say that, honestly, I always say if I was single, I would be living in El Salvador.
If it was just me, no family, no kids, no nothing, I would just move to El Salvador.
Same here. But you know, I'm not single and you're not single.
No, but I might move anyway. Like at some point, like it's so good. It's just,
yeah yeah it's tempting every time i'm there and now you're a friend with the president even better
yeah uh you might get a job in the government i would love that uh yeah yeah yeah minister of
i imagine that right imagine just uh the number of people who've been calling me hypocrites and
i went to a fucking dinner all right yeah that's all i did it's the first step to get a job
You never had a school lunch or anything?
Like what?
It's also taxpayer funded in some countries at least.
Maybe not in the US.
Was the dinner taxpayer funded, Knut?
Come on.
I don't know.
I didn't ask.
Yeah.
I mean, it must be.
It's a fun dinner, I'm sure.
I would have gone on.
It was fun.
Yeah, yeah.
I can imagine.
Yeah.
It was cool.
No, I keep pinching myself that these things just keep happening to me.
It's bizarre, but I'm sure I'm enjoying all of it.
Yeah, Bitcoin has changed my life in unimaginable ways, honestly.
Yeah.
I now know people that could potentially call the president.
Yeah, same here.
Of the United States.
which is why
because I'm also an immigrant
I came here, I didn't know anybody
sometimes I wonder what I would be doing if I didn't discover Bitcoin
I have no idea
maybe I
I guess I'll do something
and it's not that interesting
because you would probably be stuck in some hamster's wheel
chasing more fiat
of course
that's where most people end up
few people
actually get to the level
where they can truly start self-reflecting and get out because the most successful fiat
people are not the ones that do that.
To be successful in fiat it better to move fast and break things than to have patience So the inverse of clown world everything that true for fiat the inverse is true for Bitcoin Right Like your your first million sats is the easiest not the hardest
Like in fiat, the first million dollars is the hardest and then it gets easier.
Like that's what every billionaire says.
Yes.
And Bitcoin is the opposite.
Pretty much.
There is no staking and getting yield on your Bitcoin.
And if you do, you're probably going to end up with no Bitcoin.
No, fiat around and find out.
That's what that is.
Yes, yes, exactly.
Somebody should write a book called The Clown World, The Inversion of...
What is the name?
The Inversion of Clown World.
It's right there.
What are the chances?
Available on Amazon Doc.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And BitcoinInfinity.com if you want to use money that's not stealing from your kids.
And Club Orange, maybe.
Yeah.
You can probably find it through Club Orange by some means, I guess.
Send a DM to Knut on Club Orange.
Yeah, yeah.
And get a book and pay in sass through the wallet.
Easy peasy.
and
yeah
everyone has
I was thinking
about referral
codes here
and since
we're
talking about
such things
in on
Club Orange
each and
every member
has a referral
code right
yeah
so you just
have a QR
code to give
to other
people and
5,000
Sats
5,000
Sats
each sign
up
somebody has
made
more than a
million sets to referrals.
Cool.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
That's a cool thing because every user for us is income, it's revenue.
So we can pay a very high referral bonus.
And there is no limit.
You can refer a thousand people, we'll pay a thousand.
We will give you five million sets.
That's fantastic.
And a million sets, that's a thousand dollars.
So that's quite a lot of money for referring people.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Well, that's a good thing about having the same.
So that's incentive alliance.
You know, that's the thing.
Because if you don't, yeah, there you go.
Show us your QR code.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I sort of have to now that we're talking about it.
So here you go, people.
And get rid of the reflections.
That's a QR code to find you.
Post a video.
Oh, God damn it.
That's secure code to find you, which is good.
Yes.
If you go in your settings and then there's a.
All right.
Settings on the top right and then refer.
Go to the near you tab, go to the main page, then click on your profile picture on the
top right.
Yes, that's what I did.
And then I'm just being a boomer here.
Refer and earn.
Oh, the button was too big.
So here it is with the beautiful new logo in the middle.
And of course, it's too bright here now.
Yeah, exactly.
I know what to do.
This is a tip here, by the way,
to everyone trying to scan a lightning invoice
at a conference or something.
Turn down the brightness on your phone.
And that's how these things work.
Actually here the QR code And now it brighter again But you had it there you can pause the video if you want to use my referral code And let see if that works Let see if we get some new clubbers on board
Clubbers.
She's better than orange killers, I guess.
Yeah.
Pill now or suppository later, right?
That's the question.
So that's the situation on the ground.
Maybe we should call it club suppository.
Oh my God.
Next company, next Bitcoin app.
We'll do that.
Yeah, we're not at the suppository stage yet, though.
That's far off into the future.
If there even is a suppository state.
I mean, you can always be early.
You're always early to Bitcoin.
There is no late.
It's always early.
You know what I say?
What I say?
Bitcoin is forever
so you can never be late
no exactly
that's 100% true
exactly
it's fantastic
and that's why you should get a lifetime membership
because Bitcoin is forever
so there's no
there is no
there is no oh you know
maybe I don't watch Netflix anymore
no, Bitcoin is forever
you can get a lifetime membership
fantastic
Matteo are there any other features or anything
or anything else you want to talk about
before we wrap this up?
I think we covered a lot, man.
We covered a lot, yeah.
Yeah, we covered a lot.
Honestly,
I mean, there could be
an infinite amount of things,
but, you know,
Club Orange,
new name, new logo.
Yeah.
Same mission of connecting
big corners in real life.
Just kind of the mission,
big corners, events, merchants.
That's been the mission from day one,
and it will be the mission in five years.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
And it's working.
It's growing every month.
I've been impressed by the numbers
and it keeps growing.
I hope people get used to the new name quickly.
It's a much better name, so they should.
So where can people find you
and where can people find the app?
Well, you can find me on,
oh yes, Club Orange,
but I'm also on Nostor.
I'm also on ex-Matteo Pellegrini.
But I honestly, obviously, I reply to every single message on Club Orange,
not so much on the other platform. And cluborange.org is the website and Club Orange on the App Store or
Google Play Store, whatever you download your apps. Also, it's on this thing called Zap Store,
which is a North Store base, I think. Zap Store and Club Orange everywhere.
Easy to find. Can't misspell it.
Yes, and you can DM me on Club Orange,
and I will also reply to every single DM eventually.
I might not do it the same day, but usually within the same week at least.
Low-time preference.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's a good way to reach out.
And then I know you're for real because this takes commitment.
There are no Asian ladies asking you how your trade is going on Club Orange,
unless they actually are Asian ladies who want to know how your trade is going
you want to know a funny story you want to know a funny story
no I went to I went no okay oh yes I mean yes yes I said no but I meant yes
okay good I went to a meetup in LA a few weeks ago and there was an Asian lady I told her about Club Orange No no no wait I told her about Club Orange She signed up and I kid you not the profile picture it would be like an Asian lady that sent you out of your trades going but it a real person
and like wait this is you it's like you look like a like a bot uh i didn't say that but it's like
it was like a it was like a like an inception you know like they become reality oh my god so
this asian lady might some of them are real just so just so you know yes and there might be a real
nigerian prince out there who actually has something for you but who knows i'm sure when
they'll meet one of those people too i'm sure anyway there's there's only one asian lady
on club orange and there's only one bot we didn't talk about the boat wait a minute only one asian
lady really oh that's girl that i that i met yeah but there must be more asian ladies on club orange
i'm sure yeah the bot the satoshi bot have you used it it's so good on club orange yeah yeah
We built the bot.
It's so cool.
I built it this summer while I was in Italy.
It was so hot, I couldn't go out.
I'm just going to beat the bot.
And it's trained on Satoshi Nakamoto writing public for only the public.
And it kind of talks like Satoshi.
It's like a little bit dismissive sometimes.
But it's the best way to learn about Bitcoin or lighting or blockchain,
time whatever you want to learn about bitcoin is so if you go on club orange and you and you go
search and you type satoshi nakamoto bot it looks like a profile it looks like a regular profile and
then you can just talk you know people have been told me like they've learned like like a lot
it's amazing did you find it satoshi nakamoto bot just type satoshi nakamoto bot bot yes
I typed it as one word and that didn't, but yeah, Satoshi Nakamoto connect.
And then there's a statue of, uh, yeah, yeah.
The statue. Yeah. Yeah. I saw the statue. Now I'm connected to Satoshi Nakamoto bot here.
It's so much fun, man. It's the only bot that we have on the app. That's it.
It's the only one. Yeah. Yeah.
Hello. Ask me about Bitcoin. There you go.
If I don't understand, I don't have the time to tell you.
Yeah, well, yeah, I'll write something.
It's fun, man.
It's honestly fun.
I can imagine.
Yes.
All right, Matteo.
Always a pleasure.
Thank you very much.
I know you have to get going here soon.
So, yes, thank you for coming on.
And everyone should get on Club Orange, of course.
Thank you.
Knut, it was a pleasure.
I hope to see you in El Salvador with your new friend, Bukele.
Yeah, you should definitely come.
And that's a good time of year to visit for sure.
And that's a great conference too.
Yeah.
See you there, hopefully.
Okay.
Thank you.
Otherwise, somewhere else in the world.
Yes.
Take care.
Always a pleasure.
Ciao, ciao.
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
Brush your damn teeth.