1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,690 My experience I noticed like one thing that's been working in Africa 2 00:00:03,857 --> 00:00:07,372 with business owners, just from a mining perspective is mining is legal. 3 00:00:07,669 --> 00:00:10,342 Just explore, how much electricity do they have? 4 00:00:10,342 --> 00:00:11,756 How much electricity do they consume? 5 00:00:11,811 --> 00:00:12,847 the cost of electricity. 6 00:00:12,931 --> 00:00:16,162 Convince them to put a miner to transform a cost center into a 7 00:00:16,162 --> 00:00:17,371 profit center in their business. 8 00:00:17,416 --> 00:00:18,607 the adoption, it's. 9 00:00:18,659 --> 00:00:22,986 is accelerating from my view for the small to medium business owners, 10 00:00:23,050 --> 00:00:24,450 in Africa and the Middle East. 11 00:00:24,477 --> 00:00:26,422 no one heard of ordinals in Africa. 12 00:00:26,457 --> 00:00:29,338 But the impact of the ordinance and the transaction fees. 13 00:00:29,466 --> 00:00:30,457 They know of that. 14 00:00:30,711 --> 00:00:34,047 They don't want to dive into the intricacies of lightning 15 00:00:34,075 --> 00:00:35,138 Opening channels, et cetera. 16 00:00:35,138 --> 00:00:35,545 No. 17 00:00:35,545 --> 00:00:38,610 they heard that Bitcoin has a, they can transfer money for cheap, 18 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:41,310 they can wait 10 minutes or like 15 minutes or whatever for, to get 19 00:00:41,310 --> 00:00:44,501 their $101,000 or, or 10 K or 20 K. 20 00:00:44,615 --> 00:00:48,114 They want that and they hear it's, it's been the most secure 21 00:00:48,168 --> 00:00:50,077 network to transact on for them. 22 00:00:50,077 --> 00:00:53,432 They don't care about the speed, as long as it's cheap and secure. 23 00:00:53,432 --> 00:00:56,068 But with the ordinals, it only made that more difficult. 24 00:02:43,190 --> 00:02:46,291 Sooly Kobayashi, welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show. 25 00:02:46,291 --> 00:02:47,121 Thanks for joining us. 26 00:02:47,398 --> 00:02:48,938 Thanks for having me, Luke, Knut. 27 00:02:49,378 --> 00:02:49,578 Yeah. 28 00:02:49,578 --> 00:02:50,718 Nice to see you, Sooly. 29 00:02:51,064 --> 00:02:55,644 could you start by giving our listeners a little introduction through to yourself? 30 00:02:55,664 --> 00:02:59,164 Give us, give us the TLDR on Sooly Kobayashi, please. 31 00:02:59,668 --> 00:03:00,118 sure. 32 00:03:00,728 --> 00:03:03,298 SuSoolyLebanese born and raised. 33 00:03:03,614 --> 00:03:10,434 lived through the Lebanese public corruption before all the inflation and 34 00:03:10,444 --> 00:03:12,384 Lebanon getting into the mainstream media. 35 00:03:12,834 --> 00:03:18,364 Uh, worked into international NGOs, uh, United Nations humanitarian 36 00:03:18,364 --> 00:03:21,844 development programs in Lebanon, uh, working with ministries, 37 00:03:21,844 --> 00:03:23,994 working with cash programs, etc. 38 00:03:24,614 --> 00:03:29,414 I've always been an IT geek since seven, uh, when I disassembled the first PC. 39 00:03:29,414 --> 00:03:35,324 And then, uh, yeah, 2014, I moved to Europe, to the corporate world, 40 00:03:35,484 --> 00:03:37,514 where it happens just moving. 41 00:03:37,534 --> 00:03:39,094 I hear about something called Bitcoin. 42 00:03:39,774 --> 00:03:41,578 Didn't really, Look into it. 43 00:03:42,598 --> 00:03:47,408 That's my, my 10 year anniversary memorial, uh, since 2014. 44 00:03:47,781 --> 00:03:52,351 and then, um, yeah, I started traveling to Africa, uh, Southwest Africa and 45 00:03:52,351 --> 00:03:57,011 the Middle East for the last decades, every six weeks for three weeks. 46 00:03:57,351 --> 00:04:05,129 and Just before the inflation that hit Angola in 2016, I had started to 47 00:04:05,129 --> 00:04:10,129 dabble into the TradFi kind of trading traditional finance just as a hobby. 48 00:04:11,464 --> 00:04:17,334 2016, I am in Angola, the, there's all this inflationary syndrome that the 49 00:04:17,334 --> 00:04:23,444 country is going through from capital controls to prices to, uh, price controls, 50 00:04:23,729 --> 00:04:27,744 to the banks, not transferring money, um, outside the country, et cetera. 51 00:04:28,502 --> 00:04:32,842 And then, yeah, that's, just wanted to, to, to share that because for me, 52 00:04:32,842 --> 00:04:38,032 as a Lebanese, I saw that in 2016 and as soon as it started 2019 in Lebanon, 53 00:04:38,332 --> 00:04:40,042 uh, I saw a lot of similarities. 54 00:04:40,552 --> 00:04:45,532 Now, um, through my Bitcoin story, just 2017, I told you 1,016, I started 55 00:04:45,532 --> 00:04:49,373 like stratify, um, Bitcoin, uh, um. 56 00:04:50,207 --> 00:04:53,934 It happened that I picked up Bitcoin on my, investing, trading 57 00:04:53,964 --> 00:04:56,084 radar, just like any other asset. 58 00:04:56,104 --> 00:04:58,724 I didn't know what it was, just traded it just like that. 59 00:04:59,164 --> 00:05:04,204 other funds and oil and metals, et cetera, had no cloud bought custody. 60 00:05:04,627 --> 00:05:09,277 and back then I was like, I was proud that, yeah, I started, uh, I 61 00:05:09,277 --> 00:05:11,067 own some Bitcoin on a trading app. 62 00:05:11,457 --> 00:05:14,217 I thought it was like mine anyway, in the first place. 63 00:05:14,667 --> 00:05:24,282 and then 2019 is where I really started to realize that this is very time consuming. 64 00:05:24,302 --> 00:05:28,772 I was lucky that I, unfortunately, the only thing I lost was 65 00:05:28,812 --> 00:05:31,732 time and time preference. 66 00:05:31,886 --> 00:05:36,326 and I only realized the, the, the importance of time preference in 67 00:05:36,616 --> 00:05:41,836 2019, where it was affecting really my life, uh, family, friends, work, 68 00:05:41,876 --> 00:05:43,346 because I was doing this on the side. 69 00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:49,992 And, You have to follow the news, um, Asia, Europe, uh, the States, uh, 70 00:05:50,002 --> 00:05:54,972 having two or three screens, uh, on and like trying to understand graphs and 71 00:05:55,012 --> 00:05:58,712 astronomy, um, so it was quite a thing. 72 00:05:58,722 --> 00:06:00,372 And then I noticed that everything followed Bitcoin, 73 00:06:01,182 --> 00:06:02,602 uh, for a reason or another. 74 00:06:02,912 --> 00:06:08,826 So that triggered my curiosity, and frankly, I, I go through these 75 00:06:09,216 --> 00:06:12,786 annual self reflections, uh, where I had to change something in my life. 76 00:06:13,056 --> 00:06:17,836 Uh, everything was okay except sleep and like quality, uh, relationships. 77 00:06:18,506 --> 00:06:21,116 I was like, you know what, uh, I'm going to convert all these 78 00:06:21,666 --> 00:06:24,616 top 30, 40 crypto to Bitcoin. 79 00:06:25,090 --> 00:06:29,640 I did that, 2019, just at the beginning, even though I started 80 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,627 dabbling because like I always followed Buffet's, uh, advice on like, always 81 00:06:34,937 --> 00:06:36,737 buy when there's blood on the street. 82 00:06:37,057 --> 00:06:41,246 Uh, I understood back then that Bitcoin was, uh, an asset that had 83 00:06:41,246 --> 00:06:46,505 some legitimacy, uh, even back then, and then converted to Bitcoin 2019. 84 00:06:46,715 --> 00:06:50,415 And I started entering the rabbit hole, uh, 2019. 85 00:06:50,445 --> 00:06:55,375 I meet a great guy, Bitcoiner and a friend, Marco from Lebanon, who's the 86 00:06:55,375 --> 00:06:59,294 founder of the biggest, Bitcoin community in Lebanon, education community. 87 00:06:59,954 --> 00:07:05,504 And we started, I remember like, Like for weeks debating about like, you know, he's 88 00:07:05,504 --> 00:07:08,234 a maxi, he was a maxi, I wasn't one then. 89 00:07:08,704 --> 00:07:12,224 Um, a money maximist, let's sound money maximist, let's keep it, uh, 90 00:07:12,324 --> 00:07:17,134 let's clarify it now, it's 2024, we need to, we need to clarify, I guess. 91 00:07:17,634 --> 00:07:21,384 Um, and then I realized like, wow, this is really something. 92 00:07:21,404 --> 00:07:25,884 And I started converting all my other trad5 holdings to Bitcoin. 93 00:07:26,841 --> 00:07:32,211 Um, 2020, unfortunately, it was unfortunate for the COVID, uh, syndrome 94 00:07:32,251 --> 00:07:36,329 and impact on the world, but, uh, being home without traveling, made 95 00:07:36,369 --> 00:07:40,499 me discover that there was something called Clubhouse, which was like the 96 00:07:40,769 --> 00:07:42,869 early generation of Twitter spaces. 97 00:07:43,719 --> 00:07:47,839 I got educated by Max Hillebrand in a toxic way that I really loved it, man. 98 00:07:48,009 --> 00:07:48,819 I loved it. 99 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:53,439 I loved every single hour, like it was like, it was like, I was so 100 00:07:53,439 --> 00:08:00,239 thirsty for learning and, um, started organizing sessions on Clubhouse 101 00:08:00,249 --> 00:08:05,939 for, to educate Bitcoin and Arabic 2020 weekly with Marco, that's. 102 00:08:06,599 --> 00:08:07,349 took off. 103 00:08:07,429 --> 00:08:12,845 And then, uh, back then I didn't know that, uh, Swan was, uh, on 104 00:08:12,845 --> 00:08:15,845 one of the clubs and they saw that I was organizing these sessions 105 00:08:15,845 --> 00:08:17,225 in Arabic every, every week. 106 00:08:17,225 --> 00:08:20,225 And they reached out and asked me how it's going. 107 00:08:20,225 --> 00:08:25,278 And like, if I'm interested in like, to do something further and back then, really, 108 00:08:25,278 --> 00:08:31,493 like even now, I don't, I, um, I work in a, in a family business, um, and I don't 109 00:08:31,493 --> 00:08:36,563 have time to do any real operational work, but I was like, I was so frustrated 110 00:08:36,573 --> 00:08:40,923 back then, you know, like you just like swallow the toxic orange pill where you 111 00:08:40,923 --> 00:08:46,533 see the, you're, you're, I think toxicity levels decreases over time and you keep, 112 00:08:47,293 --> 00:08:50,903 at least for me, uh, um, uh, a switch. 113 00:08:51,258 --> 00:08:52,878 Where you can switch it on. 114 00:08:52,908 --> 00:08:53,898 Uh, this is how I do it. 115 00:08:53,898 --> 00:08:58,148 I think like you can be a maxi gentleman, uh, without using the 116 00:08:58,148 --> 00:08:59,678 toxicity left, right and center. 117 00:09:00,608 --> 00:09:04,338 And then I was like, uh, what are you doing in the Middle East and Africa? 118 00:09:04,338 --> 00:09:07,698 Since you're asking, because like I, I know the market quite well. 119 00:09:07,698 --> 00:09:12,258 I know the, who are the players, the exchanges, the applications, 120 00:09:12,258 --> 00:09:13,518 and I know what's happening. 121 00:09:13,578 --> 00:09:18,423 And I was like, I ranted and vented and vomited it all on a call. 122 00:09:19,453 --> 00:09:22,953 And the guy was like, uh, maybe I think you should talk to Corey. 123 00:09:23,083 --> 00:09:32,908 I was like, okay, and taught me that you create your own reality, uh, in 124 00:09:32,908 --> 00:09:40,348 the sense where that's years ago, fast forward today, I do Bitcoin consulting, 125 00:09:40,458 --> 00:09:45,123 business consulting, uh, for, Bitcoin companies wanting to work in the Middle 126 00:09:45,123 --> 00:09:50,063 East and Africa, but most of my work is to onboard non Bitcoin companies onto 127 00:09:50,063 --> 00:09:56,973 Bitcoin through, um, acquiring Bitcoin, custodying Bitcoin, um, mining, point 128 00:09:56,973 --> 00:10:01,723 of sale, um, a la carte menu, kind of, if someone needs it, just because like 129 00:10:01,743 --> 00:10:07,585 during, through my work, which is, um, a fiat job nowadays, the, we're entering 130 00:10:07,585 --> 00:10:12,883 the, we're, we're diversifying into a Bitcoin, uh, business unit as well. 131 00:10:12,968 --> 00:10:16,428 That's all that I'm handling, but it exposes me to a lot of 132 00:10:16,458 --> 00:10:20,448 manufacturers, supply chain distributions, business owners. 133 00:10:21,418 --> 00:10:27,648 And yeah, it's been really mind blowing how you tell me like, what's the TLDR? 134 00:10:27,648 --> 00:10:30,208 It's just like how it all started. 135 00:10:30,258 --> 00:10:34,768 And Bitcoin just gives you, um, I mean, first off, you just want to do 136 00:10:34,768 --> 00:10:41,050 something a Bitcoin and, um, By the way, I did give a talk on the, one of the 137 00:10:41,060 --> 00:10:45,340 European meetups, the Antwerp Belgium meetups about how to find a job and to 138 00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:47,000 create your opportunities in Bitcoin. 139 00:10:47,460 --> 00:10:48,800 Like everyone wants to work on Bitcoin. 140 00:10:48,830 --> 00:10:54,160 Everyone wants to go on the website to look for jobs and Bitcoin companies. 141 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,230 The best way, frankly, is to create your own. 142 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,430 Um, because we're, we're not too many and we need each other. 143 00:11:02,580 --> 00:11:08,989 Um, and one thing that the TLDR of this thing is that basically every company 144 00:11:08,989 --> 00:11:14,319 would need someone who believes in a goal and an area, if you have an area 145 00:11:14,319 --> 00:11:19,879 of spec, uh, specialty of expertise, really just go do your homework 146 00:11:19,979 --> 00:11:21,629 and not start knocking on doors. 147 00:11:21,669 --> 00:11:23,109 If one doesn't work, the other will. 148 00:11:23,999 --> 00:11:24,639 That's it. 149 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,759 Sorry for the longer TLDR. 150 00:11:27,874 --> 00:11:29,414 no, this is very interesting. 151 00:11:29,424 --> 00:11:30,594 There's a lot to unpack there. 152 00:11:30,824 --> 00:11:34,664 First of all, I'm curious what brought you to Angola in the first place. 153 00:11:35,024 --> 00:11:39,114 It's not a country that you just happened to end up in, I guess. 154 00:11:39,184 --> 00:11:40,594 Like, what brought you there? 155 00:11:41,209 --> 00:11:46,529 my fiat job is, I'm going to try not to talk myself much about this topic. 156 00:11:46,529 --> 00:11:50,239 It's just like Angola, uh, and the surrounding countries, Sub Saharan 157 00:11:50,259 --> 00:11:58,819 Africa is, um, is one of the operations we have, um, in my fiat job and, 158 00:11:58,849 --> 00:12:01,129 um, it's all supply chain based. 159 00:12:01,179 --> 00:12:03,239 Um, so yeah, this is, this is why. 160 00:12:03,619 --> 00:12:07,409 Um, like I'm based in Europe where the head offices are in Europe, 161 00:12:07,419 --> 00:12:11,189 but, uh, the arms of the business are in Africa and the Middle East. 162 00:12:11,686 --> 00:12:13,496 Okay, we won't dox you any further. 163 00:12:13,576 --> 00:12:17,026 Uh, I mean, that could mean literally anything from oil of 164 00:12:17,026 --> 00:12:19,936 Yulee to Barbie dolls to whatever. 165 00:12:20,206 --> 00:12:20,676 I don't know. 166 00:12:20,956 --> 00:12:23,411 Uh, so, uh, So let's not go there. 167 00:12:23,521 --> 00:12:29,441 Um, another thing that interests me, like the, the little I know about, uh, 168 00:12:29,821 --> 00:12:36,041 Islamic banking or, or like Arab banking is that, uh, I think it's taking interest, 169 00:12:36,131 --> 00:12:38,541 interest is sort of a sin in Islam. 170 00:12:38,571 --> 00:12:39,421 Isn't that the case? 171 00:12:39,441 --> 00:12:42,791 And it's, it's forbidden to, to, uh, give out loans and, 172 00:12:43,891 --> 00:12:46,141 uh, require interest payments. 173 00:12:46,481 --> 00:12:47,381 How does that work? 174 00:12:47,867 --> 00:12:54,016 so it's three parts or like, let's say four parts for first, Halal money in 175 00:12:54,016 --> 00:12:56,846 Islam is like avoiding Reba or interest. 176 00:12:56,846 --> 00:13:01,746 Like you mentioned, second is, um, this money to have 177 00:13:01,896 --> 00:13:03,376 an ethical business practice. 178 00:13:04,164 --> 00:13:05,734 Third is transparency and fairness. 179 00:13:08,164 --> 00:13:11,494 Transparency fourth and fairness, uh, sorry, transparency 180 00:13:11,494 --> 00:13:13,314 third and fairness fourth. 181 00:13:13,484 --> 00:13:19,082 So if you notice, like, if you, if you draw similarities with Bitcoin, if like 182 00:13:19,122 --> 00:13:23,992 from the creation of Bitcoin, from the code, the code is written in a fair way. 183 00:13:24,997 --> 00:13:30,157 The proof of work mining is done in a democratic, fair way, especially 184 00:13:30,157 --> 00:13:31,707 with the difficulty adjustment. 185 00:13:32,167 --> 00:13:36,717 Um, and the ethical business practices today, we know the illicit practices 186 00:13:36,797 --> 00:13:42,167 on fiat compared to Bitcoin, how it is and why Bitcoin prevents those illicit 187 00:13:42,287 --> 00:13:43,897 practices from, uh, from happening. 188 00:13:44,571 --> 00:13:46,821 So, so would you say Bitcoin is halal money? 189 00:13:47,324 --> 00:13:49,894 Yes, I say this, even though, disclaimer, I'm not a sheikh, 190 00:13:50,144 --> 00:13:53,004 even though we have a sheikh in the space called Muawiyah Tucker. 191 00:13:53,004 --> 00:13:54,864 You need to definitely, I don't know if you spoke with him. 192 00:13:55,434 --> 00:13:59,487 Uh, he's He is an official sheikh a teaching Sharia, et cetera. 193 00:13:59,967 --> 00:14:00,957 That's something else. 194 00:14:01,017 --> 00:14:01,287 Yeah. 195 00:14:01,287 --> 00:14:03,897 This is, this is, there's a, there are, there are a couple. 196 00:14:03,927 --> 00:14:09,597 There's also, uh, also, um, another, uh, bitcoin in this place called, uh, Muslim 197 00:14:09,602 --> 00:14:12,327 Bitcoin, who's also, uh, advocating a lot. 198 00:14:12,332 --> 00:14:16,827 And they both, both been, uh, writing papers, blogging, blogging about this. 199 00:14:17,416 --> 00:14:22,306 and there are even like, uh, I did some just by diving into the rabbit hole. 200 00:14:22,576 --> 00:14:25,376 Because, you know, when, when you just discover Bitcoin, you start asking 201 00:14:25,376 --> 00:14:29,476 questions, obvious questions, at least for me, like, why is the logo orange? 202 00:14:29,856 --> 00:14:31,166 Um, is it halal? 203 00:14:31,196 --> 00:14:35,916 Is anyone like, uh, has any sheikh or like any priest or any 204 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:38,606 rabbi spoke about Bitcoin before? 205 00:14:38,606 --> 00:14:39,236 What did they do? 206 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:39,636 Et cetera. 207 00:14:39,826 --> 00:14:44,631 And there are, um, there are a couple of, um, None, um, uh, let's 208 00:14:44,631 --> 00:14:48,541 say a couple of sheikhs and Islam, I think in Saudi Arabia and in Bahrain 209 00:14:48,931 --> 00:14:54,361 who have done lectures on YouTube about Bitcoin being halal in Arabic. 210 00:14:54,401 --> 00:14:58,081 And one of them has written a paper that I can share with you after the pod. 211 00:14:58,441 --> 00:15:01,311 Um, yeah, it's, it's quite interesting. 212 00:15:01,331 --> 00:15:03,791 I think today there's a lot. 213 00:15:04,086 --> 00:15:08,996 Uh, happening when it comes to, I mean, if you go to Dubai, you can see like 214 00:15:08,996 --> 00:15:13,346 from the airport, you see the, the, the crypto shitcoin area ads, um, welcoming 215 00:15:13,346 --> 00:15:15,476 you at the airport, uh, the highways. 216 00:15:15,506 --> 00:15:20,276 If you go on Twitter spaces, you see how Saudi Arabia, despite the non 217 00:15:20,286 --> 00:15:24,636 legislation is like booming when it comes to trading, et cetera, just because 218 00:15:24,636 --> 00:15:26,466 today they're using it as a property. 219 00:15:27,501 --> 00:15:33,211 Uh, not as, so today it's kind of, uh, unspoken halal property that everyone is 220 00:15:33,211 --> 00:15:39,441 using to trade regardless to huddle or to trade, like really, um, short term. 221 00:15:39,911 --> 00:15:45,321 Um, but you don't find any, anyone talking about money. 222 00:15:45,696 --> 00:15:52,016 And, uh, I know for a fact that I don't want to mention someone if they don't 223 00:15:52,016 --> 00:15:57,416 want to be mentioned, but I know for a fact that the mainstream media in the 224 00:15:57,416 --> 00:16:02,446 Arab world is refusing to talk about Bitcoin, comparing it to, like, talking 225 00:16:02,446 --> 00:16:04,046 about sound money on mainstream media. 226 00:16:04,946 --> 00:16:10,556 They are able, they are ready to speak about Bitcoin, the tech property, 227 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:11,836 but don't bring up the sound money. 228 00:16:12,747 --> 00:16:18,747 yeah, there's, uh, proven, proven, uh, incidents or events where, um, people 229 00:16:18,757 --> 00:16:23,677 who went on TV shows who were able and more, more than capable to talk about 230 00:16:23,677 --> 00:16:27,237 the subject, they were requested not to speak about the sound money aspect of it. 231 00:16:27,931 --> 00:16:28,882 100%. 232 00:16:29,137 --> 00:16:31,967 that problem is sort of everywhere. 233 00:16:32,037 --> 00:16:36,887 I know they're for like, uh, this week when we reached a new all time high and 234 00:16:36,887 --> 00:16:42,907 stuff, the Bitcoin was mentioned in Sweden as well on, um, public service media. 235 00:16:43,517 --> 00:16:47,677 And, uh, of course they, they never talk about the, the sound money aspect. 236 00:16:48,277 --> 00:16:52,887 That's, that's just, it's mentioned like Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency, like 237 00:16:52,887 --> 00:16:57,247 implying that there are more, and this is purely speculative is something they 238 00:16:57,247 --> 00:17:01,807 say over and over again, never realizing that everything is purely speculative, 239 00:17:01,927 --> 00:17:04,447 uh, since value is subjective, right? 240 00:17:04,447 --> 00:17:09,206 So, so you never hear these, um, Other takes, you only hear it 241 00:17:09,236 --> 00:17:14,596 from the perspective of a statist Keynesian mindset, I guess. 242 00:18:08,739 --> 00:18:12,219 Hey, so maybe you can take us through a little bit about your experience 243 00:18:12,219 --> 00:18:18,539 with the general MEA Middle East Africa, um, kind of adoption there, 244 00:18:18,539 --> 00:18:22,229 because I know that that's one thing that you're heavily involved in here. 245 00:18:22,229 --> 00:18:23,734 Maybe, maybe a quick question. 246 00:18:23,984 --> 00:18:27,244 Sort of a combination for some, some background, like, like, what's 247 00:18:27,244 --> 00:18:32,004 your, what's been your experience with, with, uh, Bitcoin in, in these 248 00:18:32,014 --> 00:18:33,694 regions that you're working with? 249 00:18:34,453 --> 00:18:37,013 From a grassroots project, there's a lot happening. 250 00:18:37,293 --> 00:18:42,462 Um, and there are, evolution and challenges at the grassroots level. 251 00:18:42,832 --> 00:18:43,932 And we can dive into that. 252 00:18:44,342 --> 00:18:48,162 Uh, from a institutional level, there's a lot of evolution. 253 00:18:48,557 --> 00:18:52,647 Um, and from a regulatory point of view, there is, unfortunately, not much 254 00:18:52,647 --> 00:18:58,497 evolution except, um, in some of the, like, Dubai like cities, uh, we're talking 255 00:18:58,557 --> 00:19:02,697 about Bahrain, we're talking about Dubai, um, in particular Abu Dhabi and the UAE. 256 00:19:03,167 --> 00:19:05,547 And you have the religious perspective as well. 257 00:19:05,856 --> 00:19:09,946 now it depends if you're talking about the Middle East or Africa, that's about 258 00:19:09,946 --> 00:19:14,226 the, from the religious perspectives, mainly the Middle East, but for Africa in 259 00:19:14,226 --> 00:19:19,856 particular, man, the evolution happening there and the progress is mind blowing. 260 00:19:20,221 --> 00:19:25,771 Um, I mean, we met in Lugano, Knut, and compared to the African 261 00:19:25,781 --> 00:19:30,781 conferences, um, the, the conference I attended in September was in Ghana. 262 00:19:31,613 --> 00:19:37,293 The amount of energy people want to work on, on, on Bitcoin, the amount 263 00:19:37,293 --> 00:19:41,783 of developers working on Bitcoin, the, the initiatives of like. 264 00:19:42,323 --> 00:19:47,103 Coding, like incentivizing people to code on Bitcoin and to create like 265 00:19:47,113 --> 00:19:49,863 on ramps, off ramps is mind blowing. 266 00:19:49,993 --> 00:19:52,423 Um, so I would start with Africa. 267 00:19:52,423 --> 00:19:57,204 Africa is I think that the leading, leading continent in 268 00:19:57,294 --> 00:19:59,414 adoption, but also development. 269 00:20:00,054 --> 00:20:06,714 Um, and this comes from a simple idea is that if Bitcoin is stopped 270 00:20:06,744 --> 00:20:12,229 for any reason, In Europe, from a legislation point of view, I'm 271 00:20:12,229 --> 00:20:13,509 talking because it cannot be stopped. 272 00:20:13,539 --> 00:20:18,139 We all know that, uh, or in the West, nothing will change for the Westerners, 273 00:20:18,959 --> 00:20:24,889 but if, uh, Bitcoin is like, let's just, from a legislation point of 274 00:20:24,889 --> 00:20:26,909 view, try to be stopped in Africa. 275 00:20:27,214 --> 00:20:29,404 The Africans won't allow it to stop. 276 00:20:30,154 --> 00:20:33,334 Um, today they need Bitcoin more than anything else. 277 00:20:33,684 --> 00:20:38,084 They, I mean, there's today also the, the split between some are like, 278 00:20:38,524 --> 00:20:41,794 uh, complete hodling and some are like with the medium of exchange. 279 00:20:41,794 --> 00:20:47,721 And Africa is needs Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, uh, more than a store of value. 280 00:20:47,741 --> 00:20:52,121 Of course, store of value helps you in a highly inflationary environment. 281 00:20:52,431 --> 00:20:58,761 But if, for example, like Angola or Sierra Leone or South Africa, 70 percent 282 00:20:58,761 --> 00:21:04,871 of the market is informal markets, which means, um, you have most of the trade, 283 00:21:04,931 --> 00:21:06,871 commercial trade, the food and non food. 284 00:21:07,046 --> 00:21:10,686 It's happening on the streets, on tables, on the ground, like the mamas and papas 285 00:21:10,706 --> 00:21:15,416 are just like putting their shampoos next to their oils and cereals, etc. 286 00:21:15,416 --> 00:21:16,466 And you go buy from there. 287 00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:19,906 This is what 70 percent of the population does. 288 00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:22,056 And you have public markets everywhere. 289 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:29,726 Now, the governments want these traders or these ladies to register 290 00:21:29,726 --> 00:21:32,756 their VAT or their tax registration. 291 00:21:33,291 --> 00:21:36,171 And they want them to start invoicing customers. 292 00:21:36,501 --> 00:21:41,761 Some have, believe it or not, those ladies that might be selling something on a table 293 00:21:41,861 --> 00:21:45,891 might own multiple shops in the back, and they have a lot of money, and they 294 00:21:45,891 --> 00:21:51,511 can afford going through the registration process, but this is the minority of 295 00:21:51,511 --> 00:21:54,581 those, um, traders on the streets. 296 00:21:55,101 --> 00:22:00,886 What I'm trying to say here is, like, as a medium of exchange, these These traders, 297 00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:08,826 these commercial business women and mainly ladies in Africa, they cannot register 298 00:22:09,166 --> 00:22:15,186 for taxes just because they live in the slums and every time there is rain, they 299 00:22:15,186 --> 00:22:17,606 will be changing their house every season. 300 00:22:18,641 --> 00:22:24,331 This is how informal the African continent still is, even though 301 00:22:24,771 --> 00:22:28,011 you go as a tourist and you go, you see the nice places, et cetera. 302 00:22:28,061 --> 00:22:32,161 But Africa has so much potential and they need Bitcoin. 303 00:22:32,162 --> 00:22:35,421 And this is why M Pesa exponentially grew there. 304 00:22:35,421 --> 00:22:40,471 This is why you see all these innovations on Bitcoin using mobile 305 00:22:40,611 --> 00:22:44,901 phones in Africa, because this is really the core need for Africa today. 306 00:22:45,511 --> 00:22:50,476 So from an adoption today, it's It's very, um, it's very young. 307 00:22:50,706 --> 00:22:55,456 Um, I wouldn't say premature to try anything at this stage. 308 00:22:55,496 --> 00:22:58,486 I think there's a lot of innovation and development happening. 309 00:22:58,776 --> 00:23:03,496 Like if you see a Cassie in South Africa, or if you see, um, a Bitcoin 310 00:23:03,497 --> 00:23:05,986 Dua in Ghana or a Bitcoin Dada in Kenya. 311 00:23:06,586 --> 00:23:07,976 They're doing great work. 312 00:23:08,186 --> 00:23:13,586 Uh, each of them is trying to educate and trying to, to work around, like to create 313 00:23:13,616 --> 00:23:17,816 a circular economy where, where, where they're working and they are progressing, 314 00:23:18,346 --> 00:23:22,697 but without the support, of the rest of the Bitcoiners around the world, this 315 00:23:22,707 --> 00:23:25,007 is not really gonna take off, I think. 316 00:23:25,282 --> 00:23:29,092 Um, and this is another story, but yeah, this is for, for Africa 317 00:23:29,092 --> 00:23:30,302 from an adoption point of view. 318 00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:34,120 yeah, I don't know if you want to learn more about, uh, the Middle East, we 319 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:39,700 can, but I think Africa is the most interesting developing, um, location 320 00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:41,990 for, for Bitcoin adoption nowadays. 321 00:23:42,805 --> 00:23:48,665 Yeah, yeah, and, uh, uh, Africans really have the chance to leapfrog everyone else 322 00:23:48,665 --> 00:23:51,895 here by, by, by being faster on the ball. 323 00:23:51,895 --> 00:23:58,472 It's, and it's a, it's beautiful because it's, uh, Uh, well, for lack of a better 324 00:23:58,472 --> 00:24:05,392 word, revenge for 50 years of failed politics trying to solve their problems. 325 00:24:05,572 --> 00:24:11,142 Um, so, um, uh, yeah, a lot of exciting stuff happening there. 326 00:24:11,202 --> 00:24:17,704 And, and these, uh, miners, Providing electricity to places that otherwise 327 00:24:17,714 --> 00:24:22,414 wouldn't have any chance of getting on any type of grid, I find that 328 00:24:22,604 --> 00:24:27,504 extremely fascinating too, and as you say, it's going fast, and I think 329 00:24:27,504 --> 00:24:32,874 we've just seen, like, the snowball start to roll down the hill, and it's 330 00:24:33,104 --> 00:24:35,817 only gonna get bigger, and it's gonna 331 00:24:36,098 --> 00:24:36,828 Absolutely. 332 00:24:36,868 --> 00:24:42,778 Um, talking about miners, uh, when you, when you see what, uh, gridless is doing 333 00:24:42,788 --> 00:24:48,398 in Kenya and Africa is amazing, but it's unfortunate there's a divide between West 334 00:24:48,398 --> 00:24:53,798 Africa and East Africa from a regulatory maturity in my opinion, or wisdom. 335 00:24:54,098 --> 00:24:55,388 Uh, for example, Angola. 336 00:24:56,798 --> 00:25:01,798 who has 97 percent of Angolan energy is hydro. 337 00:25:02,808 --> 00:25:08,198 More than 65 percent of the Angolan energy produced from hydro is in excess 338 00:25:08,238 --> 00:25:11,558 abundance, so no one is, uh, absorbing it. 339 00:25:12,348 --> 00:25:15,308 And they banned proof of work in December 2023. 340 00:25:16,118 --> 00:25:18,068 So, this is just an example. 341 00:25:18,683 --> 00:25:25,433 of a country that had one of the cheapest electricity on the globe in abundance, 342 00:25:25,981 --> 00:25:31,391 where it can serve the rural and the urban areas because in Africa, even the urban 343 00:25:31,391 --> 00:25:33,131 areas need some development, et cetera. 344 00:25:33,811 --> 00:25:38,161 What you're saying is that is indeed fascinating for the governments who 345 00:25:38,171 --> 00:25:41,202 really, understood the benefits from it. 346 00:25:41,582 --> 00:25:47,374 But, uh, some other countries with greater, unique value proposition 347 00:25:47,394 --> 00:25:49,324 or advantage to start mining. 348 00:25:49,884 --> 00:25:53,604 are just like shooting, shooting their, their selves in the foot, unfortunately. 349 00:25:54,148 --> 00:25:58,868 Malawi, uh, same, uh Latitude as Angola. 350 00:25:59,202 --> 00:26:01,362 there's a facility there, I know. 351 00:26:01,442 --> 00:26:05,012 Uh, a couple of our friends were there visiting, uh, and 352 00:26:05,012 --> 00:26:06,062 they started up something. 353 00:26:06,572 --> 00:26:09,942 So, things are happening all over the place, it seems. 354 00:26:10,379 --> 00:26:14,369 Yes, Bhutan, Bhutan is, is growing big time as well. 355 00:26:14,459 --> 00:26:19,569 Like Ethiopia, uh, Ethiopia is also, I mean, Hashlabs, the guys are doing great, 356 00:26:19,689 --> 00:26:21,549 great work in, in Ethiopia as well. 357 00:26:22,009 --> 00:26:23,939 Um, I mean, everyone is scouting, right? 358 00:26:23,999 --> 00:26:27,079 Everyone is scouting for countries with cheap electricity, but the 359 00:26:27,659 --> 00:26:32,069 many, few, or many are scouting for, for cheap electricity and 360 00:26:32,069 --> 00:26:34,339 few are scouting for cheap. 361 00:26:34,494 --> 00:26:39,654 properties, real estates with like, uh, really like a waterfall or some 362 00:26:39,754 --> 00:26:44,722 green energy kind of, innovation they can build on to, to mine and really 363 00:26:44,722 --> 00:26:47,002 develop the area where they will be based 364 00:26:47,642 --> 00:26:49,432 Yeah, fascinating continent. 365 00:26:49,482 --> 00:26:50,922 It's a land of opportunity. 366 00:26:50,982 --> 00:26:54,322 Uh, always has been in a way, but especially like in times like 367 00:26:54,322 --> 00:26:58,432 these when, when there's a whole new industry to be explored here. 368 00:26:58,552 --> 00:27:00,632 Um, fascinating. 369 00:27:00,702 --> 00:27:01,142 percent. 370 00:27:01,742 --> 00:27:07,517 Um, like for me, um, the, um, My experience, like when I go, I 371 00:27:07,517 --> 00:27:10,677 started like orange Bitcoin left, right and center like all of us. 372 00:27:10,717 --> 00:27:16,977 And then I noticed like one thing that's been working in Africa with manufacturers, 373 00:27:17,077 --> 00:27:21,820 um, or business owners, just from a mining perspective is mining is legal. 374 00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:26,100 Just explore, um, the, the homework of like, to know how 375 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:27,650 much electricity do they have? 376 00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:29,270 How much electricity do they consume? 377 00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:31,177 How much, the cost of electricity. 378 00:27:31,407 --> 00:27:35,766 And just, Convince them to put a miner to transform a cost center into 379 00:27:35,766 --> 00:27:37,136 a profit center in their business. 380 00:27:37,786 --> 00:27:41,356 One miner becomes two and two becomes five and five becomes ten. 381 00:27:41,366 --> 00:27:43,686 And then I was like, Oh, I need to buy more Bitcoin because I don't 382 00:27:43,696 --> 00:27:45,796 have space for miners in my business. 383 00:27:46,084 --> 00:27:49,634 yeah, this is, I think the, it's unfortunate. 384 00:27:49,634 --> 00:27:51,704 Like the, the adoption, it's. 385 00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:57,149 is accelerating from my view for the small to medium business owners, 386 00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:59,229 um, in Africa and the Middle East. 387 00:27:59,259 --> 00:28:02,839 Um, uh, but not for the individual. 388 00:28:02,879 --> 00:28:04,779 I'm talking from a mining perspective. 389 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:07,870 Fascinating you should mention Bahrain there before. 390 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:13,440 I spent some time there, but my family used to live there, and I used to 391 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:15,810 semi live there, or I was on and off. 392 00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:20,890 I was working on boats at the time, and so I was like out for six weeks, and then 393 00:28:20,890 --> 00:28:24,990 I spent like four weeks in Bahrain maybe, and then two weeks in Sweden or something. 394 00:28:25,631 --> 00:28:27,921 So, and it's a fascinating place. 395 00:28:28,995 --> 00:28:34,435 From what I know, they recently converted from an emirate to a kingdom, I think. 396 00:28:34,515 --> 00:28:39,604 Uh, so, so, um, what do you know about the regulations and stuff there? 397 00:28:39,604 --> 00:28:42,564 It's, it's a bit more liberal than Saudi Arabia. 398 00:28:42,564 --> 00:28:43,324 I know that much. 399 00:28:43,324 --> 00:28:47,614 It may be not as liberal as, as Dubai, but, uh, somewhere in between. 400 00:28:48,129 --> 00:28:49,161 what, what's going on? 401 00:28:49,781 --> 00:28:55,401 Uh, from a liberal point of view or liberalism, uh, is something, 402 00:28:55,541 --> 00:28:56,681 liberty point of view. 403 00:28:57,412 --> 00:29:02,012 listen, uh, I once heard like one saying, like, if you don't have a gay 404 00:29:02,132 --> 00:29:05,422 parade on the street of a country, that means you don't have liberty. 405 00:29:06,067 --> 00:29:13,437 Um, and, uh, at the same time, uh, liberty, uh, sphere of speech, et cetera. 406 00:29:13,617 --> 00:29:17,142 Now We're going to talk about what's happening in the region. 407 00:29:17,542 --> 00:29:18,112 Today. 408 00:29:18,652 --> 00:29:23,372 Um, there is a competition between Dubai or the UAE and 409 00:29:23,372 --> 00:29:25,782 United Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. 410 00:29:26,082 --> 00:29:26,412 Okay. 411 00:29:26,762 --> 00:29:31,802 So Kingdom Saudi Arabia decided, uh, last year to have this vision that they want 412 00:29:31,802 --> 00:29:34,532 to be the leading city in the Middle East. 413 00:29:34,612 --> 00:29:38,682 Um, like one of their regions, uh, one of their areas in the, in Saudi. 414 00:29:39,012 --> 00:29:42,202 Um, they want to convert it into really like a mind blowing 415 00:29:42,202 --> 00:29:43,612 futuristic kind of city. 416 00:29:44,312 --> 00:29:47,762 Um, and of course, before that vision, you had Dubai in the Middle East 417 00:29:47,772 --> 00:29:49,712 that had a similar kind of view. 418 00:29:49,752 --> 00:29:52,122 And today you have a competition between both. 419 00:29:52,632 --> 00:29:53,192 Um, 420 00:29:53,377 --> 00:29:54,277 Neom, right? 421 00:29:54,682 --> 00:29:55,312 yes, correct. 422 00:29:55,342 --> 00:29:55,762 Correct. 423 00:29:55,822 --> 00:30:01,122 Neon is one of the, yeah, is, is, is DCT that got the marketing and the, the 424 00:30:01,122 --> 00:30:05,762 spotlights about how things are, um, expected to be, et cetera, like you have. 425 00:30:06,722 --> 00:30:11,612 Like, I don't know, like flying cars and like schools and hospitals, like 426 00:30:11,622 --> 00:30:15,202 above each other on a horizontal line in the desert, like really mind blowing 427 00:30:15,202 --> 00:30:16,582 from an architecture point of view. 428 00:30:17,042 --> 00:30:19,802 But let's see about that with like all like the budget was 429 00:30:19,812 --> 00:30:21,802 about like 60 billion or something 430 00:30:22,032 --> 00:30:23,932 It's a very fiat y project though. 431 00:30:24,042 --> 00:30:26,502 It's like central planning all over the place, right? 432 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,730 a hundred percent, like, okay. 433 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:37,290 So, um, I don't think the, the Middle East or Africa is getting 434 00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:38,410 away from central planning. 435 00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:39,480 Any time soon. 436 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:40,440 Okay. 437 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:46,020 Unfortunately, uh, from a freedom footprint point of view, I think 438 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,360 things are getting better in some areas that have witnessed already some, 439 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,390 um, uh, oppression over the years. 440 00:30:54,390 --> 00:30:57,845 However, There are other areas like Lebanon, Syria, 441 00:30:57,895 --> 00:30:59,915 Palestine, Egypt with Sudan. 442 00:30:59,955 --> 00:31:01,715 Things are getting worse and worse. 443 00:31:02,375 --> 00:31:06,995 And you have the oil rich countries like Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the UAE 444 00:31:07,005 --> 00:31:11,695 that are really working on the regulatory point of view that to actuate and open to 445 00:31:11,695 --> 00:31:16,975 absorb basically the international, uh, investment, um, when it comes to Bitcoin. 446 00:31:17,377 --> 00:31:21,217 Bahrain is one of the leading ones, I think, after the UAE. 447 00:31:21,502 --> 00:31:27,748 So you have Dubai first, Abu Dhabi second, Bahrain maybe third, but despite 448 00:31:27,828 --> 00:31:33,131 all the, what you read on the media, that even Dubai, let's talk only about 449 00:31:33,131 --> 00:31:37,281 Dubai just because for you to understand what I'm talking about, today you have 450 00:31:37,741 --> 00:31:42,721 Bitcoin companies who've been, who went and opened offices in Dubai a year ago, 451 00:31:42,721 --> 00:31:48,131 recruited, uh, opened bank accounts with a lot of like, um, headache doing it, 452 00:31:48,181 --> 00:31:50,151 and they still didn't get their license. 453 00:31:51,011 --> 00:31:53,691 And it's been like 360 days since they applied. 454 00:31:54,341 --> 00:31:59,901 Now today in Dubai, and we're talking about the most open city slash, um, 455 00:31:59,931 --> 00:32:03,921 country in, in the world that should be really absorbed, be open minded 456 00:32:03,931 --> 00:32:08,991 about, about Bitcoin and absorbing the, the businesses and individuals. 457 00:32:09,511 --> 00:32:12,711 Today, if you are a business, and I spoke with compliance departments 458 00:32:12,721 --> 00:32:15,761 and banks trying to convince them of like Bitcoin, et cetera. 459 00:32:16,161 --> 00:32:19,791 You have, you might read that a bank is really Bitcoin friendly. 460 00:32:19,791 --> 00:32:24,181 You go, uh, they tell you, yes, it's crypto friendly or Bitcoin friendly. 461 00:32:24,191 --> 00:32:25,881 You open a bank account as a business. 462 00:32:25,881 --> 00:32:29,977 I'm talking at the moment, you're going to receive a transaction, from, 463 00:32:30,007 --> 00:32:32,677 um, A buying or selling Bitcoin. 464 00:32:33,017 --> 00:32:35,527 Let's say you have sister companies in Africa and you want to just 465 00:32:35,547 --> 00:32:38,097 transfer because like doing your own treasury management. 466 00:32:38,612 --> 00:32:43,462 you go through, um, a very long, difficult process. 467 00:32:43,858 --> 00:32:48,158 now apparently there are some new banks that are trying to make it easier 468 00:32:48,158 --> 00:32:49,918 for you, from a banking perspective. 469 00:32:50,268 --> 00:32:53,948 From a licensing perspective, Today depends what you want to do. 470 00:32:53,998 --> 00:32:56,498 Um, and it applies also the same in Bahrain. 471 00:32:56,925 --> 00:33:01,965 today you have, and you can notice from the couple of exchanges in the region, 472 00:33:01,965 --> 00:33:06,365 you have a couple of exchanges that are, you don't have Bitcoin only exchanges 473 00:33:06,375 --> 00:33:08,285 for a fact, unfortunately, not yet. 474 00:33:08,626 --> 00:33:13,096 but the exchanges you have, uh, have only few as a few, like 475 00:33:13,096 --> 00:33:15,016 couple of crypto and only Bitcoin. 476 00:33:15,564 --> 00:33:16,934 Um, if you want to. 477 00:33:17,094 --> 00:33:20,904 Uh, open a business today in the Middle East, um, you need to really 478 00:33:20,924 --> 00:33:24,984 find, uh, because you have, uh, it depends on your business model 479 00:33:25,024 --> 00:33:26,614 that you have different licenses. 480 00:33:26,923 --> 00:33:31,780 and if you read just the law, it's, it's really crazy how they've, 481 00:33:31,780 --> 00:33:35,730 they're, they're trying to regulate everything from wallets to exchanges. 482 00:33:36,435 --> 00:33:40,115 To if you're minting or not, if you're holding custody or not, 483 00:33:40,195 --> 00:33:44,744 if you, if you are just a normal startup, you're not holding custody. 484 00:33:44,744 --> 00:33:48,834 If let's say you're creating a Bitcoin app, right, where you can integrate 485 00:33:48,864 --> 00:33:53,234 with other applications, um, you can't open a normal bank account. 486 00:33:53,234 --> 00:33:55,144 You need to go through a specific directory. 487 00:33:55,944 --> 00:33:56,624 a process. 488 00:33:57,075 --> 00:34:00,535 So it's still good, better than other areas where they really don't 489 00:34:00,545 --> 00:34:02,285 allow you to do anything, to be fair. 490 00:34:02,395 --> 00:34:06,565 Um, we're still early because when you talk to banks, they don't have a clue 491 00:34:06,565 --> 00:34:08,725 still about what we're talking about. 492 00:34:08,795 --> 00:34:13,155 Um, but yeah, I had the same conversation with Portuguese banks, 493 00:34:13,205 --> 00:34:17,785 uh, of companies operating in Angola, trying to move their liquidity through 494 00:34:17,825 --> 00:34:22,111 Bitcoin, with a Portuguese bank that they have in Angola and Portugal. 495 00:34:22,521 --> 00:34:23,971 And the Portuguese bank didn't. 496 00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:28,126 like new or at least they didn't tell me that they acted really idiots 497 00:34:28,146 --> 00:34:33,468 not understanding what, uh, what's the Portuguese, crypto legislation. 498 00:34:33,988 --> 00:34:37,988 So I went on online on chatgpt for like three hours meeting with the 499 00:34:37,988 --> 00:34:41,878 CFO of a company and the compliance department in Lisbon, Portugal, copy 500 00:34:41,908 --> 00:34:45,008 pasting their own legislation, telling you, like telling them, listen, guys. 501 00:34:45,428 --> 00:34:51,018 Your country has some legislation about cryptocurrency and you can apply that. 502 00:34:51,128 --> 00:34:54,838 And they started asking about like, how can you trace Bitcoin transactions? 503 00:34:54,878 --> 00:35:00,398 Like things are, and, and, and I was like, even, um, having a conversation with your 504 00:35:00,408 --> 00:35:06,233 friend, Jeff Booth, Knut, asking him like, are they stupid or are they playing dumb? 505 00:35:07,083 --> 00:35:10,393 And he was like, I think they're playing dumb just because 506 00:35:10,523 --> 00:35:11,933 a bit of both I think. 507 00:35:12,335 --> 00:35:18,265 but when you're talking about with like people, uh, that are not boomers who've 508 00:35:18,265 --> 00:35:23,405 been in this space and who have read few things, you imagine there's a minimum. 509 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,200 Um, I think today that the world don't, I mean, as much as they have 510 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,200 the ETF and they're happy with the ETF and the banks are gonna, are 511 00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:35,340 marketing Bitcoin as a good thing. 512 00:35:36,420 --> 00:35:40,980 I'm, uh, more on the conservative, pessimistic side from a 513 00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:42,570 legislation point of view. 514 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:50,115 Um, I'm Over time, long term, as much as I'm hugely, um, uh, bullish on 515 00:35:50,125 --> 00:35:56,455 Bitcoin, I am, uh, I'm a sole money maximalist, uh, but I'm very pessimistic 516 00:35:56,495 --> 00:35:59,535 about the future, unfortunately, when it comes to real legislations, et 517 00:35:59,535 --> 00:36:01,935 cetera, and seeing the CBDCs happening. 518 00:36:02,345 --> 00:36:06,125 Abu Dhabi, for example, is working on a CBDC to go hand in hand with the 519 00:36:06,125 --> 00:36:08,325 Chinese CBDC in specific, for example. 520 00:36:08,465 --> 00:36:10,575 And Abu Dhabi has the central bank of the UAE. 521 00:36:10,989 --> 00:36:14,939 And you keep thinking about all these things, like how, like, okay, we're happy 522 00:36:14,939 --> 00:36:16,969 with the price going up great, but like 523 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,940 There is another perspective though, and that is that these regulations 524 00:36:20,940 --> 00:36:25,490 are, are forcing people to actually adopt a Bitcoin standard and do 525 00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:29,910 business on Bitcoin without involving banks or governments or anything like 526 00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:34,396 that, because a business on a Bitcoin standard doesn't have to be a Anything. 527 00:36:34,406 --> 00:36:35,896 You don't have to do any paperwork. 528 00:36:35,896 --> 00:36:39,506 It can be a Telegram group or a Nostr chat, you know? 529 00:36:39,966 --> 00:36:43,586 So, uh, uh, So, it is unstoppable in that sense. 530 00:36:43,586 --> 00:36:48,172 If you, if you, if you really use it, the way you can. 531 00:36:48,202 --> 00:36:51,922 And there are tools like Wasabi, for instance, and CoinJoints and stuff. 532 00:36:51,922 --> 00:36:57,512 You can, you can be completely private, and you can be completely independent. 533 00:36:57,512 --> 00:37:01,472 And that, uh, At the end of the day, that's the point of the whole thing, 534 00:37:01,912 --> 00:37:05,872 because it can't be permissionless if it needs permission from people, 535 00:37:05,932 --> 00:37:11,522 like, either it is permissionless or not, and, uh, it can't really compete 536 00:37:11,562 --> 00:37:15,257 with any other currency or, or asset. 537 00:37:15,617 --> 00:37:18,987 If it isn't, it needs to be outside of the law. 538 00:37:19,007 --> 00:37:24,907 It needs to be independent from what any human being, regardless if it's 539 00:37:24,907 --> 00:37:30,097 an emir, a king, or a president, or a, you know, a prime minister. 540 00:37:30,797 --> 00:37:34,037 Bitcoin needs to not give a fuck about that. 541 00:37:34,422 --> 00:37:38,102 Like, and, uh, and that's, that's a feature, not a bug. 542 00:37:38,602 --> 00:37:42,292 So, so I think what they're, what, what they're really achieving with all of 543 00:37:42,292 --> 00:37:46,812 this, especially when the threatening with CBDCs and stuff is that they're pushing 544 00:37:46,822 --> 00:37:50,179 everyone with a brain out away from. 545 00:37:50,624 --> 00:37:53,304 The legacy systems and on to this new standard. 546 00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:58,108 and I, uh, I take the, the more optimistic view. 547 00:37:58,258 --> 00:38:03,978 We have, you know, these, uh, Riverside here, or Zoom calls or video 548 00:38:03,978 --> 00:38:08,538 conferencing, we have social media, including Nostr, which is sort of 549 00:38:08,538 --> 00:38:12,798 unstoppable, uh, and we have Bitcoin, which is very much unstoppable. 550 00:38:12,998 --> 00:38:14,978 Um, so we're unstoppable. 551 00:38:15,133 --> 00:38:17,373 They, they can't stop this from happening. 552 00:38:17,773 --> 00:38:22,823 And sure, they can make martyrs out of this or that bitcoiner. 553 00:38:23,263 --> 00:38:29,463 They can imprison this or that guy, but on the whole, uh, there will be a 554 00:38:29,583 --> 00:38:33,743 segment of the world population that just don't have to care about this. 555 00:38:33,943 --> 00:38:35,073 laws and regulations. 556 00:38:35,123 --> 00:38:42,613 Just as, um, I guess the, the, uh, central bankers and, uh, quote unquote 557 00:38:42,623 --> 00:38:46,563 diplomats of the world don't have to care about laws and regulations right now. 558 00:38:46,583 --> 00:38:49,493 Like the, the so called elites, which is just basically the 559 00:38:49,503 --> 00:38:50,703 most successful thieves. 560 00:38:51,413 --> 00:38:58,053 Uh, but we're, we're creating a new global class of citizenry here that doesn't 561 00:38:58,063 --> 00:39:04,193 have to care about Um, what about laws the way, um, you know, legacy people do? 562 00:39:04,624 --> 00:39:06,164 a hundred percent, a hundred percent. 563 00:39:06,314 --> 00:39:13,244 But I think my frustration comes from stems from, um, the lack of the effort. 564 00:39:13,244 --> 00:39:14,834 I mean, there, there are a lot of efforts. 565 00:39:14,834 --> 00:39:15,584 Don't get me wrong. 566 00:39:15,624 --> 00:39:16,194 Just like. 567 00:39:16,529 --> 00:39:18,289 There's a lot of development happening. 568 00:39:18,319 --> 00:39:22,553 Like, yeah, we need to develop this, wallet 2. 569 00:39:22,553 --> 00:39:23,223 0. 570 00:39:23,233 --> 00:39:28,503 We need to develop this, uh, solution, uh, second, third layer, etc. 571 00:39:28,503 --> 00:39:29,643 It's all good for Bitcoin. 572 00:39:29,983 --> 00:39:32,603 But when it comes to Middle East and Africa. 573 00:39:32,643 --> 00:39:35,513 When I talk about Middle East and Africa, I'm not talking about the rich 574 00:39:35,533 --> 00:39:40,373 countries like Nigeria, the, or I'm talking about Dubai or Saudi Arabia. 575 00:39:40,483 --> 00:39:43,633 I'm talking about really the poor countries that really 576 00:39:43,633 --> 00:39:45,103 need Bitcoin as Bitcoin. 577 00:39:45,524 --> 00:39:52,386 today, in order to, use Bitcoin or to feel To build resilience for the people 578 00:39:52,386 --> 00:39:56,666 because we understand Bitcoin, but like it took you thousands of hours or hundreds 579 00:39:56,666 --> 00:40:02,556 of hours to be where you are today, but the normal business owner convincing 580 00:40:02,556 --> 00:40:09,356 him today with, um, with Bitcoin, it got much more difficult with the ordinals. 581 00:40:09,726 --> 00:40:10,956 Uh, that's one thing. 582 00:40:11,376 --> 00:40:17,006 Um, second thing, um, we need to, like, in order to, like what you said 583 00:40:17,016 --> 00:40:22,926 about like, um, Bitcoin doesn't care, doesn't, doesn't give a fuck by design. 584 00:40:24,306 --> 00:40:31,036 if those individuals can't spend their Bitcoin to buy their needs, they really, 585 00:40:31,086 --> 00:40:34,866 they don't really need to see the benefits from it other than store of value. 586 00:40:35,616 --> 00:40:36,676 Remittances, yes. 587 00:40:36,886 --> 00:40:40,386 To receive it from their diaspora from outside their continent where they 588 00:40:40,386 --> 00:40:41,986 have billions, millions and billions. 589 00:40:41,986 --> 00:40:42,206 Yes. 590 00:40:42,206 --> 00:40:42,596 Okay. 591 00:40:43,146 --> 00:40:47,826 But today it's very crucial to really accelerate a circular 592 00:40:47,826 --> 00:40:49,786 economy for these areas. 593 00:40:49,816 --> 00:40:52,196 And I think there are a couple of initiatives happening around the 594 00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:54,356 world that would only help that. 595 00:40:54,576 --> 00:40:58,726 Once you have a circular economy, um, I'm not talking about the on 596 00:40:58,726 --> 00:41:00,486 ramps we have, like Bitrefill. 597 00:41:00,526 --> 00:41:03,646 I'm talking about really the, like normal businesses. 598 00:41:03,646 --> 00:41:03,686 Yeah. 599 00:41:03,701 --> 00:41:08,351 To really accept, uh, Bitcoin for, from anything to anything really, 600 00:41:08,671 --> 00:41:12,611 that would help and they would, that would help feel the communities that 601 00:41:12,621 --> 00:41:16,641 they can adopt Bitcoin and to use it without going through the fiat on ramp 602 00:41:17,521 --> 00:41:22,196 until we get that, we still rely on the continent, still rely on the region, 603 00:41:22,196 --> 00:41:27,966 still rely on the banks, even like today you have unbanked people in Africa, 604 00:41:28,246 --> 00:41:31,396 but some share, uh, M Pesa account. 605 00:41:31,496 --> 00:41:32,976 Some share a SIM card today. 606 00:41:33,171 --> 00:41:37,061 In Africa, just because they can't handle the fees, et cetera. 607 00:41:37,401 --> 00:41:42,146 So, self sovereignty, they need to feel like they can survive. 608 00:41:42,196 --> 00:41:48,416 They can thrive from medical services to foods, to travel using Bitcoin. 609 00:41:48,909 --> 00:41:53,259 if they don't know about Bitrefill or any other, uh, option, that's, that's 610 00:41:53,269 --> 00:41:55,359 also, um, a problem until today. 611 00:41:56,265 --> 00:41:56,735 Yeah. 612 00:41:56,785 --> 00:42:01,255 So, um, that's like, we have to keep pushing the mantra, accept 613 00:42:01,425 --> 00:42:02,735 Bitcoin for your goods and services. 614 00:42:02,785 --> 00:42:04,465 That's, that's the most crucial thing. 615 00:42:05,026 --> 00:42:06,461 if you do, then you help people. 616 00:42:06,611 --> 00:42:09,201 Then you help this thing happen, regardless of where you're from or 617 00:42:09,201 --> 00:42:10,871 where you happen to be in the world. 618 00:43:28,109 --> 00:43:33,889 So you mentioned that, you mentioned the, the ordinals thing being a barrier 619 00:43:33,889 --> 00:43:38,269 to adoption for businesses, like they see that and it makes it more difficult. 620 00:43:38,289 --> 00:43:39,389 Can you explain that a little bit? 621 00:43:39,822 --> 00:43:45,102 I mean, uh, they don't, like, no one heard of ordinals in Africa. 622 00:43:45,122 --> 00:43:48,982 I mean, at least the people who I see and work with. 623 00:43:49,214 --> 00:43:52,384 but the impact of the ordinance and the transaction fees. 624 00:43:52,524 --> 00:43:53,614 They know of that. 625 00:43:53,944 --> 00:43:58,364 And, um, of course now that it got better than before, because like 626 00:43:58,404 --> 00:44:01,964 the, with the hype a couple of months back, it was just ridiculous. 627 00:44:02,434 --> 00:44:02,794 Yes. 628 00:44:02,794 --> 00:44:05,404 It was an opportunity to onboard them on Lightning and to explain 629 00:44:05,404 --> 00:44:06,484 what Lightning is, et cetera. 630 00:44:06,484 --> 00:44:10,108 But frankly speaking, When you're talking to a business owner who's like 631 00:44:10,621 --> 00:44:14,761 in his 40s or something, his 20s or something, but when you're talking for 632 00:44:14,761 --> 00:44:17,771 someone in his 60s, just explaining something very simple, you don't 633 00:44:17,771 --> 00:44:19,261 want to, you want to keep it simple. 634 00:44:20,101 --> 00:44:25,691 They don't want to dive into the intricacies of lightning and if 635 00:44:25,691 --> 00:44:27,731 they need privacy for liquid or not. 636 00:44:27,751 --> 00:44:30,441 And they're like, Opening channels, et cetera. 637 00:44:30,441 --> 00:44:30,951 No. 638 00:44:31,471 --> 00:44:35,761 So they, they heard that Bitcoin has a, they can transfer money for cheap, 639 00:44:35,761 --> 00:44:38,731 they can wait 10 minutes or like 15 minutes or whatever for, to get 640 00:44:38,731 --> 00:44:42,241 their $101,000 or, or 10 K or 20 K. 641 00:44:42,901 --> 00:44:47,071 They want that and they hear it's, it's been the most secure 642 00:44:47,131 --> 00:44:49,231 network to transact on for them. 643 00:44:49,231 --> 00:44:53,341 They don't care about the, the speed, as long as it's cheap and secure. 644 00:44:53,341 --> 00:44:55,261 They don't wanna trust a third party. 645 00:44:55,356 --> 00:44:55,706 Great. 646 00:44:56,951 --> 00:44:59,851 But with the ordinals, it only made that more difficult. 647 00:44:59,961 --> 00:45:06,906 Now, yes, maybe history and block size war taught us that it only accelerates 648 00:45:06,906 --> 00:45:10,086 the development of layer 2s, layer 3s, to make things better, blah, blah, 649 00:45:10,086 --> 00:45:11,846 blah, yes, yes, yes, and all the above. 650 00:45:11,876 --> 00:45:15,956 But frankly speaking, on the ground, we still, we're still not there yet. 651 00:45:16,397 --> 00:45:19,897 Well, the ordinalist problem seems to be solving itself now if you 652 00:45:19,907 --> 00:45:24,974 have a look at the mempool, because like, if I switch to the data, you 653 00:45:24,974 --> 00:45:27,164 know, visualization here on mempool. 654 00:45:27,174 --> 00:45:30,774 space, it's not at all as bad as it was like a month ago. 655 00:45:31,434 --> 00:45:34,294 So there, they might be finally running out of money, this. 656 00:45:34,595 --> 00:45:36,285 That's just for any given block, though. 657 00:45:36,325 --> 00:45:43,681 I mean, like, and I empathize with your point here, Sooly, that like, what 658 00:45:43,681 --> 00:45:47,331 I've seen as being the biggest problem is that it's contributed to create 659 00:45:47,691 --> 00:45:50,308 basically a minimum price right now. 660 00:45:50,508 --> 00:45:53,535 I mean, the ordinals are adding just enough demand that 661 00:45:53,545 --> 00:45:55,385 the mempool isn't clearing. 662 00:45:55,885 --> 00:45:56,635 At, at all. 663 00:45:56,635 --> 00:45:59,485 Like it, like it used to say six months ago or, or a year 664 00:45:59,485 --> 00:46:00,655 ago or something like that. 665 00:46:00,775 --> 00:46:04,285 And, and there can be an argument that maybe that's a good thing, right? 666 00:46:04,285 --> 00:46:09,535 But, uh, the, the, the thing is, uh, the, the combination of that Binance comes in 667 00:46:09,535 --> 00:46:14,088 and does, uh, a batch of consolidation transactions that's going to fill up 668 00:46:14,088 --> 00:46:18,738 20 blocks and then, and then you have these, these spiky fe it still happens. 669 00:46:18,738 --> 00:46:20,148 That, that there's a, a big. 670 00:46:20,383 --> 00:46:25,333 Spike, and it's all from some kind of, uh, inscription mint or something like that. 671 00:46:25,503 --> 00:46:28,503 And so those spike for a while, and so those, those Binance 672 00:46:28,533 --> 00:46:30,493 transactions don't get dealt with. 673 00:46:30,493 --> 00:46:32,053 It takes, it takes longer, right? 674 00:46:32,403 --> 00:46:37,613 And, and I mean, I think the, uh, the thing that, uh, I, I appreciate 675 00:46:37,613 --> 00:46:39,933 you saying is that there is an effect on the ground, right? 676 00:46:40,203 --> 00:46:44,568 The, the problem solving itself, okay, I, I, I can kind of see that to some extent. 677 00:46:44,568 --> 00:46:48,678 It's certainly not as bad as it as it was three months ago, for example, 678 00:46:48,928 --> 00:46:56,258 but higher fees are higher fees, and it prevents users from transacting, 679 00:46:57,498 --> 00:47:03,468 actually transacting money like a monetary transaction at the at the 680 00:47:03,478 --> 00:47:09,928 fee rate that they could if here, I'll, I'll, I'll Um, maybe try to be 681 00:47:09,928 --> 00:47:11,078 a little more succinct about this. 682 00:47:11,598 --> 00:47:14,528 There's no such thing as waiting for a couple of days 683 00:47:14,538 --> 00:47:16,278 for fees to go down anymore. 684 00:47:16,448 --> 00:47:21,508 It's just that fees sort of have this floor, and you put a transaction 685 00:47:21,508 --> 00:47:24,318 in, you have to do it above that floor, or you have no idea. 686 00:47:24,898 --> 00:47:26,908 How long it's going to transact from. 687 00:47:27,298 --> 00:47:30,558 So that floor used to be one sat per vbyte. 688 00:47:30,988 --> 00:47:33,988 Now it's something in the realm of 12. 689 00:47:34,458 --> 00:47:37,508 It was 20, uh, a month ago or something. 690 00:47:37,508 --> 00:47:37,718 Right. 691 00:47:37,718 --> 00:47:39,128 So, so it's just raised the floor. 692 00:47:39,188 --> 00:47:42,168 It's raised the ability for someone to, to transact. 693 00:47:42,178 --> 00:47:42,388 Right. 694 00:47:42,388 --> 00:47:43,148 So yeah. 695 00:47:43,208 --> 00:47:44,278 What, what do you think about that? 696 00:47:44,278 --> 00:47:46,088 Is it that, is that really having an effect? 697 00:47:46,647 --> 00:47:48,507 I mean, three months ago, it was an issue. 698 00:47:48,932 --> 00:47:53,962 And people just like, especially like, you have a lot of crypto bros 699 00:47:53,982 --> 00:48:01,922 trying to enter the market, especially after the finance shake last year. 700 00:48:02,282 --> 00:48:04,062 There's a lot of opportunities in Africa. 701 00:48:04,682 --> 00:48:11,043 And they keep, for me, it's like Bitcoin in a way or marketing 702 00:48:11,043 --> 00:48:13,093 Bitcoin over other shitcoins. 703 00:48:14,133 --> 00:48:18,108 I mean, of course, going through the The basics, uh, but when it comes from 704 00:48:18,108 --> 00:48:20,968 a transaction point of view and the fees point of view, that was an issue. 705 00:48:21,048 --> 00:48:22,208 Now it's no longer the issue. 706 00:48:22,279 --> 00:48:24,039 and education is key. 707 00:48:24,149 --> 00:48:28,629 At the same time, the more you educate the better, um, the more chance you have 708 00:48:28,629 --> 00:48:31,679 to educate, the more time you have to educate depends who you're talking to. 709 00:48:31,999 --> 00:48:35,709 If you're talking to a family office, with a board, you need 710 00:48:35,709 --> 00:48:37,509 to pick the youngest age group. 711 00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:41,199 If you're talking to, um, a um, a barber. 712 00:48:41,369 --> 00:48:45,559 In Africa, uh, who's in his sixties is going to be just tough. 713 00:48:45,689 --> 00:48:48,289 You need to download, download, unfortunately, a lightning wallet 714 00:48:48,319 --> 00:48:51,889 and transact, uh, on, uh, what if Satoshi to convince them 715 00:48:51,899 --> 00:48:53,869 and then orange them this way. 716 00:48:54,059 --> 00:48:55,199 Uh, so things change. 717 00:48:55,229 --> 00:48:59,899 Uh, there isn't, yes, it affected the, the, the education. 718 00:49:00,029 --> 00:49:03,875 Um, just like, you know, when you were orange billing. 719 00:49:04,235 --> 00:49:08,565 For a long time, using the same techniques, you don't have to 720 00:49:08,565 --> 00:49:12,645 worry about the fees, and from one day to another, fees are up. 721 00:49:12,875 --> 00:49:18,115 You need to change the whole, I mean, for me it's a bit, I'm a bit OCD, I'm a 722 00:49:18,175 --> 00:49:22,210 perfectionist in the sense where Yes, of course you can pitch for the lightning. 723 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,620 But lightning has its weaknesses as well. 724 00:49:24,660 --> 00:49:31,770 I don't like to pitch something, um, that I'm not 100 percent sure of. 725 00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:33,530 I'm 100 percent sure of Bitcoin today. 726 00:49:33,570 --> 00:49:37,280 Am I 100 percent sure of lightning in a controlled environment? 727 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:37,950 Yes, I am. 728 00:49:38,550 --> 00:49:43,570 Um, like I know people who and I even encouraged and did some some 729 00:49:43,570 --> 00:49:47,030 presentations where they had different offices across different countries. 730 00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:49,780 They have different nodes and they can transact their own channels, 731 00:49:50,140 --> 00:49:51,850 um, in a self sovereign way. 732 00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:53,480 But this is not your typical. 733 00:49:53,810 --> 00:49:55,170 business owner today. 734 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,260 And if we're going to drive adoption, I think there's a lot of, 735 00:50:00,460 --> 00:50:04,630 I mean, despite the development on L2s and L3s, and it's fantastic. 736 00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:09,560 L1 is still the way to go, in my opinion, for Africa when it 737 00:50:09,580 --> 00:50:12,630 comes to, I'm not talking medium of exchange, just to teach about 738 00:50:13,564 --> 00:50:17,784 A bit, a bit of a historical perspective here, though, from, from, uh, like, 739 00:50:17,844 --> 00:50:23,934 having lived through the segwit, um, the, the fork wars back in 2017. 740 00:50:24,374 --> 00:50:28,614 So there was a period, like, before the fork, but also after, like, 741 00:50:28,624 --> 00:50:33,484 during 2018, where no one thought the mempool would ever clear again. 742 00:50:34,169 --> 00:50:34,789 But it did. 743 00:50:35,029 --> 00:50:38,859 Like, it took months and months, but then it cleared up again. 744 00:50:39,469 --> 00:50:43,989 And, uh, and, uh, same, same thing in, uh, uh, when was that? 745 00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:45,499 Like, 2021? 746 00:50:46,049 --> 00:50:49,819 We had high fees for a while, like, the fir I think this is the, like, the first 747 00:50:50,619 --> 00:50:56,549 Ordinal type, if it's even that, but then it cleared again, and now we're having 748 00:50:56,609 --> 00:51:03,239 this spike, and it's going down again, and we can think that it's never gonna clear 749 00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,429 again, but we don't really know that. 750 00:51:06,779 --> 00:51:08,409 We'll have to wait and see, I guess. 751 00:51:08,867 --> 00:51:09,767 Bitcoin doesn't care. 752 00:51:11,237 --> 00:51:11,707 We don't. 753 00:51:12,638 --> 00:51:17,688 you don't, the funny part is like, really, this is like the whole, we're 754 00:51:17,708 --> 00:51:23,787 entering the ordinance topic, just like in Africa or the Middle East, it's a, it's 755 00:51:23,787 --> 00:51:28,747 a region that needs really sound money for the characteristics of sound money. 756 00:51:29,532 --> 00:51:35,902 And Ordnance is just another fiat centralized VC way of doing things. 757 00:51:36,202 --> 00:51:41,292 Uh, it would be, yeah, creating hype and demand and adoption and blah, blah, 758 00:51:41,292 --> 00:51:46,012 blah, getting people back or like someone really trying, liking, like the mind 759 00:51:46,012 --> 00:51:50,860 blowing thing is just like today you have NFT artists claiming to be Bitcoin maxis 760 00:51:50,890 --> 00:51:54,070 because they believe in Bitcoin network to be the strongest network on earth. 761 00:51:54,130 --> 00:51:57,115 It's like, What am I doing here? 762 00:51:57,682 --> 00:52:03,342 Yeah, we saw some real Bitcoin art at Bitcoin Atlantis, uh, Fractal Encrypt, uh, 763 00:52:03,382 --> 00:52:07,602 tons of other artists, but Fractal's piece was the centerpiece of this art gallery. 764 00:52:07,862 --> 00:52:11,652 Absolutely mind blowing stuff, just mind blowing, and that's 765 00:52:11,652 --> 00:52:12,872 some real art right there. 766 00:52:13,067 --> 00:52:16,007 And not, not, not clogging the chain at all. 767 00:52:16,147 --> 00:52:20,417 It's like even that Fractal works so hard on his art, so he doesn't 768 00:52:20,417 --> 00:52:23,457 have time to do any on chain transactions, so he's even offloading 769 00:52:25,202 --> 00:52:26,662 I have practiced work at home. 770 00:52:26,812 --> 00:52:27,832 I love his work, man. 771 00:52:27,882 --> 00:52:28,122 Yeah. 772 00:52:28,792 --> 00:52:32,842 Um, uh, I, I wasn't able to make it for Atlantis this year, but 773 00:52:32,842 --> 00:52:35,202 I only saw amazing reviews guys. 774 00:52:35,202 --> 00:52:35,692 Well done. 775 00:52:36,067 --> 00:52:40,977 We had, we had such a wonderful time, and yeah, we're releasing a 776 00:52:40,977 --> 00:52:42,767 lot of episodes from that right now. 777 00:52:42,807 --> 00:52:46,767 This will of course be released after that, so it doesn't matter to this show. 778 00:52:47,597 --> 00:52:53,047 Anyway, Sooly, uh, tell us a bit about your, uh, uh, your current thing, 779 00:52:53,127 --> 00:52:55,127 like, uh, the consulting you do. 780 00:52:55,207 --> 00:53:00,657 Um, you, you consult Bitcoin businesses, you said, and like individuals as well? 781 00:53:01,072 --> 00:53:01,572 Yes. 782 00:53:01,642 --> 00:53:01,962 Correct. 783 00:53:03,117 --> 00:53:10,237 So, uh, what I do from, um, from the Bitcoin space, um, I'm always 784 00:53:10,337 --> 00:53:16,427 on the hunt to try to do my homework to see if there's any opportunity 785 00:53:16,457 --> 00:53:21,978 for a Bitcoin only company, to find opportunities for Bitcoin only companies. 786 00:53:22,108 --> 00:53:24,158 And the market in Africa or the Middle East. 787 00:53:24,538 --> 00:53:28,800 So what I do is like I assess the market, and knock on their doors, 788 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,630 uh, proposing a strategy to work on. 789 00:53:32,081 --> 00:53:35,371 so yeah, I did that with Swan. 790 00:53:35,461 --> 00:53:40,646 Uh, I did that with Jam3, even though Jam3 and, um, Their perspectives 791 00:53:40,646 --> 00:53:43,916 like, okay, but like, you know, for example, Dubai doesn't need Gen 3. 792 00:53:44,286 --> 00:53:46,746 They have enough money for Gen 3, but this is exactly the point. 793 00:53:46,756 --> 00:53:51,726 Like the whole region needs Gen 3 and we will see more of Gen 3, 794 00:53:51,736 --> 00:53:54,186 I'm sure, uh, this year in Africa. 795 00:53:54,647 --> 00:53:57,936 so this is what I do for the Bitcoin companies. 796 00:53:58,247 --> 00:54:03,227 Um, now even like I expanded into, um, like there's a lot of services that 797 00:54:03,237 --> 00:54:06,162 some of the Bitcoin companies, they don't have Pleasants in the Middle East. 798 00:54:06,162 --> 00:54:10,930 I need to, run some, um, uh, some assessments, uh, some vetting 799 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,730 for partners, uh, et cetera. 800 00:54:12,770 --> 00:54:13,820 So I did that. 801 00:54:13,820 --> 00:54:19,230 But the core is really onboarding individuals and businesses, um, high 802 00:54:19,230 --> 00:54:23,390 net worth individuals in specific or business owners that are That can be 803 00:54:23,470 --> 00:54:28,950 just a barber or like really nonprofits, Bitcoin organizations like Bitcoin 804 00:54:28,990 --> 00:54:34,520 Dada in Kenya and Ghana, uh, just to see how can Bitcoin help them grow. 805 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,730 Because at the end of the day, I strongly believe that, um, like all 806 00:54:38,730 --> 00:54:43,280 of us, like helping each other and helping Bitcoin entities thrive, 807 00:54:43,740 --> 00:54:45,570 we will all benefit from it. 808 00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:50,060 Um, so yeah, what I do is like, it all starts with a, I call it the Nakamoto 809 00:54:50,070 --> 00:54:53,060 approach where it's like, I divided the. 810 00:54:53,608 --> 00:54:59,318 It's just a normal, um, thinking where it's, you do the assessment, 811 00:54:59,318 --> 00:55:03,438 you have your white paper, and after the white paper, you do, basically, 812 00:55:03,458 --> 00:55:06,838 the first step is a discovery call, getting to know the client, etc. 813 00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:11,308 And then we do a preliminary deep dive of like the white, white paper 814 00:55:11,308 --> 00:55:15,988 preparation where we go, um, we do a SWOT analysis of the strategy, 815 00:55:15,988 --> 00:55:18,267 the vision of the person, et cetera. 816 00:55:18,647 --> 00:55:22,997 Um, and then I write like a clear proposal to serve the, 817 00:55:23,027 --> 00:55:25,087 the entity or the organization. 818 00:55:25,347 --> 00:55:30,337 And by the way, I like, it's varies between, uh, all sectors, agriculture, 819 00:55:30,417 --> 00:55:32,137 manufacturing and services. 820 00:55:32,427 --> 00:55:37,537 Um, as well, you have like great, um, business owners who've been building, 821 00:55:37,567 --> 00:55:39,487 uh, or using Bitcoin in different ways. 822 00:55:39,517 --> 00:55:44,322 And for me, orange billing has been so Interesting is in the sense 823 00:55:44,322 --> 00:55:48,162 where not convincing people to buy Bitcoin, just convincing people to, 824 00:55:48,632 --> 00:55:50,912 to really optimize their operations. 825 00:55:51,352 --> 00:55:54,012 Bitcoin brings you marketing today. 826 00:55:54,812 --> 00:55:59,712 Bitcoin brings you a point of sale and less accounting heads in your 827 00:55:59,712 --> 00:56:02,722 accounting department for less reconciliations during the day to do. 828 00:56:03,032 --> 00:56:05,332 There's a lot of things and energy and mining. 829 00:56:05,332 --> 00:56:10,652 So, frankly, Bitcoin is so easy to defend because it's so strong and amazing. 830 00:56:10,682 --> 00:56:12,772 So, um, and then, um. 831 00:56:12,982 --> 00:56:15,972 There's a session called the protocol alignment, where there's 832 00:56:15,972 --> 00:56:20,272 a roadmap of what needs to be done milestones wise based on the business 833 00:56:20,282 --> 00:56:21,882 or the high network individuals. 834 00:56:23,212 --> 00:56:24,632 And then there are checkpoints in between. 835 00:56:24,642 --> 00:56:26,582 And then there's a block confirmation. 836 00:56:26,622 --> 00:56:29,422 I call it in the, in the process, the block confirmation is like 837 00:56:29,422 --> 00:56:32,432 the strategy implementation, and there's a difficulty adjustment. 838 00:56:32,782 --> 00:56:35,402 At the end where there is always a check. 839 00:56:35,402 --> 00:56:38,682 So there's a timeline of a roadmap of different sessions. 840 00:56:38,712 --> 00:56:40,642 I try to, I call it Nakamoto approach. 841 00:56:40,642 --> 00:56:41,412 It's very transparent. 842 00:56:41,412 --> 00:56:44,432 This way it made me consistent with all the clients and to make 843 00:56:44,432 --> 00:56:45,802 sure that everything goes well. 844 00:56:45,802 --> 00:56:49,282 And it's very transparent, very methodical and it works. 845 00:56:49,702 --> 00:56:50,922 So yeah, this is what I do. 846 00:56:50,922 --> 00:56:55,382 And, um, Unfortunately, I haven't finalized the website 847 00:56:55,382 --> 00:56:58,972 yet because sometimes I have a too low time of a preference. 848 00:56:59,842 --> 00:57:01,592 My time preference is too low sometimes. 849 00:57:02,042 --> 00:57:06,202 Um, but yeah, um, I'll be launching this website very soon. 850 00:57:06,242 --> 00:57:09,932 And just because I need, didn't need the website before, but now that with 851 00:57:09,942 --> 00:57:13,362 all the hype and everyone wants more Bitcoin, it just makes more sense. 852 00:57:13,824 --> 00:57:17,464 So, so where can people find you online if they can't find you on the website? 853 00:57:17,709 --> 00:57:20,329 Uh, Sooly Kobayashi on Twitter, on LinkedIn. 854 00:57:21,219 --> 00:57:23,489 And yeah, that's me on all platforms. 855 00:57:23,609 --> 00:57:24,509 Sooly Kobayashi. 856 00:57:24,944 --> 00:57:27,914 And if they want your services, they can shoot you a DM, I guess. 857 00:57:28,171 --> 00:57:28,891 Always open. 858 00:57:29,071 --> 00:57:29,511 Thank you. 859 00:57:29,763 --> 00:57:31,223 Sooly, this has been fantastic. 860 00:57:31,223 --> 00:57:32,533 Thank you so much for joining us. 861 00:57:33,028 --> 00:57:33,518 Likewise. 862 00:57:33,558 --> 00:57:34,178 Thanks, guys. 863 00:57:35,073 --> 00:57:35,543 Yeah. 864 00:57:35,893 --> 00:57:36,333 Take care. 865 00:57:36,433 --> 00:57:37,503 Good luck with everything. 866 00:57:37,751 --> 00:57:39,321 This has been the Freedom Footprint show. 867 00:57:39,321 --> 00:57:40,981 Like, subscribe and brush your teeth. 868 00:57:41,021 --> 00:57:41,891 Thanks for listening.