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Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity show, brought to you by Bitbox, the

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com for our books, merch, and all other things Bitcoin Infinity.

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LFG.

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Derek, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Thanks so much for joining us.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah.

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Hi.

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Glad to have you here, Derek.

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Um, so let's start off with, uh, uh, the TLDR.

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Okay.

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Um, who are you and why

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Well, it's, uh, my, my dad liked Bo Derek, so he chose the name, the name Derek.

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I don't know if we want to go that far back.

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Uh, um, so I fell in love with Nostr, uh, back in, in December of, 2022

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when Jack Dorsey, uh, discovered Nostr when he was looking for projects to

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fund open source projects to fund and a bunch of Bitcoin developers and

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Bitcoiners said, Hey, you should fund, uh, fund Nostr and check out Nostr.

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So a lot of Bitcoiners checked out Nostr at the same time too, when

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they discovered it and, and I found out that, that I could build Nostr.

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Basic services on Nostr, because it was pretty simple to do so and add

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a few bells and whistles for people.

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And, uh, I just really embraced the technology, really embraced

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what Nostr could mean for the world and started talking about Nostr

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and, And now, that's my passion.

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I love going around to conferences, Bitcoin conferences, building and

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growing Nostr, and that's kind of, I guess, brought me to you guys today.

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Yeah, I mean, we're, we're here at Nostriga, basically

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the beginning of Nostriga.

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Still the morning has, has happened.

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Yes.

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But, uh, I mean, this, this place is awesome.

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We had the Noob day yesterday, and you gave.

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Nostr 101 at the Noob Day, and so I don't think we need Nostr 101 for this

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audience necessarily, but can you at least do like a broad strokes of the

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important points of Nostr just so we have a little bit of a baseline?

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And

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Well, Nostr is decentralized and censorship resistant, and if that sounds

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familiar, it's because it shares a lot of the same ethos that Bitcoin shares.

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So I recognized immediately, you know, how important Bitcoin is for the world.

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Like I've been a Bitcoiner for a few years now, and I recognize that Nostr

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shares a lot of the same ethos, where it is censorship resistant, decentralized.

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You can control your social information similarly to Bitcoin, where you

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can control which financial rules you decide to run on your own node.

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So it gives you a lot of, A lot of ownership over your financial

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transactions for Bitcoin.

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Nostr gives you a lot of ownership over your social transactions, so I,

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I really liked the correlation to the two that really resonated with me.

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It was, it was really easy to understand if Bitcoin is the freedom to transact,

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then Nostr is the freedom to communicate, and I really liked that relationship.

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And I, I really recognized that social media is broken and Nostr

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fixes a lot of that by giving the power and the choice back to users.

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And I really think that that paired with a portable digital social identity that

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you own and you control for the very first time that you can take with you.

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To whatever application, whatever social application you want to use, it's just

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really unique because you can't log into Twitter, take your social graph

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and then log into TikTok with it.

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You know, you just can't do that now.

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Nostr, you could technically do that.

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You could have a video streaming app and you log into, and then you

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log into an audio streaming app or a podcast app or your general social

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app, and you have the same followers, the same, the same social graph, your

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contact list, everything is all there.

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And that, that's really, really neat.

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And I think that that's a unique thing that we've never had before.

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you explain the social graph in a little bit of detail?

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I think that's the level we're probably at

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Yeah.

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So your, your social graph is basically who you are social with.

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It's your, you know, your circle of friends, your followers, the people

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you interact with on a daily basis in traditional social media that

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varies from different app to app.

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You had, you would have to ask everybody.

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Hey, what's your Instagram account?

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I want to follow you there.

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What's your Twitter account?

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I want to follow you there.

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So your social graph is all of your, the people you interact with, the people

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you follow, the people that follow you.

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You're allowed, you're able to bring that with you with Nostr, no matter what app

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you sign into, all of that comes with you.

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That's all, that's all portable.

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That your, your social circle, your social experience.

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Yeah.

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So, so the key feature of Nostr in that respect is this portability, but this

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is all still tied down by the, the, uh, public private key cryptography

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similar to, similar to Bitcoin.

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In fact, it's the same, uh, cryptography setup as Bitcoin.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So just like Bitcoin, you know, you, you want to keep your private key safe.

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Nostr is the same way.

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Your private key unlocks access to your social identity, just

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like your Bitcoin private key unlocks access to your Bitcoin.

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So you want to keep them safe.

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You want to make sure that you're, you're practicing safe nsex and

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you're, you're storing your, uh, Yeah, like, I like that dad joke.

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So I always use

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It's a good one.

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But you, you, you make sure that key is secure and you're not putting that

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key into random applications because like I said, it unlocks your identity.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think, I think on a practical level, that actually is kind of a scary

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thing in this early days of, of Nostr, because first of all, people who are

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into the Nostr environment early are going to get this extremely strong web

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of trust with other early Nostr users.

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Is it Nostr or Nostr?

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How do you say

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Oh man, this is a fighting point.

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Like the Nostr is decentralized.

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So there's no correct way to say it.

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I've heard Nostr, Nostr, Nostra, like whatever you want, whatever you want.

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It's just like the logo.

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There's no official logo.

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You know, you can make a logo and you can use it.

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You can make your own saying and use it.

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Nostr actually seems like the

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say,

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we, we'll go with no

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I, you know, the next, the next time you're gonna have somebody else in

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your show, they're gonna say Nostr.

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It's just how it is.

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Totally.

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I mean, the decentralization aspect of it, that's good.

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But the, so, okay, I think that the point I was getting at is that, is that, yeah,

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these, these NSECs are really actually valuable in the, in the sense of that,

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uh, nothing is going to, from this point onward, if, if someone loses their NSEC,

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you're not really going to get back the same kind of network in the same way.

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Yeah, that's, that's about, yeah, that's a valid point.

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If I spent, let's say, a year building my reputation, building

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my web of trust, my social graph.

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And then I leak my NSEC accidentally, I have to start all over again, and that's

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going to be hard because I essentially lost the last year's worth of work.

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I lost all that proof of work.

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Now, people that know you and interact with you, people you maybe, that you've

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met in person, they'll immediately, You know, transfer that trust to the

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new identity, but everybody else that doesn't physically know you, that's

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going to take time to rebuild that.

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Yeah, and, okay, this is, this is I think, uh, a point here.

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Why is it important to have this trust and reputation?

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Why does Nostr need that to work?

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Well, I think that, in, in Bitcoin, we say, you know, don't trust verify.

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But, I think that a certain level of trust for certain social

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interactions has to happen.

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You know, if we're constantly afraid of interacting with other humans or,

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uh, you know, stepping outside our comfort zone and being social with

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humans because we need verification, it just, paints a negative picture.

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It, you know, I, I think that a certain level of trust.

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Trust will allow us to be more human, more social because we do have to

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trust for certain aspects of life.

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And you know, uh, if we don't want a third party to have to KYC us and we have to

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play by all sorts of other rules, I think that our reputation becomes our identity.

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And that allows us to have all these new types of experiences,

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new types of interactions.

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Like if I wanted to sell something on Nostr.

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People, people use this, this all the time.

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Cause I, I have a lot of people that follow me and they say,

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Hey, I tried to sell something on Nostr and I wasn't able to do it.

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I said, Oh, I've sold stuff on Nostr.

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They're like, yeah, but you're Derek.

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And you have a lot of people that follow you.

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And I was like, Oh, okay.

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I get it.

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And then I've had people.

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Come to me and say, hey, can you reshare this item that I'm selling to

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gain exposure because I have a lot of people that follow me and I say, well,

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I don't know if I want to do that.

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I told a guy recently, I didn't know if I wanted to do that

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because I didn't know them.

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He wasn't in my web of trust and I didn't want to promote essentially

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his item that he was selling.

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Because I didn't know who he was.

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Now, if he was in my web of trust, maybe Luke, if you were selling

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something and you wanted me to, I know you, I I've interacted with you.

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Sure.

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You're in my web of trust.

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I will help you out.

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I will reshare the item you're selling.

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And I think that that type of trust in.

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You know, human interactions is okay.

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uh, one question I have about this whole thing and that, that I, I still

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haven't wrapped my head around is like.

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It's super simple to fire up a cryptographic key pair.

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So, so, uh, what's preventing basically DDoS attacks and someone

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firing up a ton of these and like,

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There's, uh, I mean, there's essentially really nothing preventing it.

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We had a Bitcoin Core developer.

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It was his name, Ron Stoner, I believe, recently.

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He decided to show this exact example.

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And he mined like four million end pubs and he sent a million of

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them to follow Will from Damus and just to show that, you know, this

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is a, uh, essentially an exploit.

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maybe, um, we need clients to start to look at low, I'll call them low value

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key, uh, accounts that don't really follow anybody that have no credit.

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interactions, uh, you know, that look like they're spam because

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ultimately anybody can create an infinite number of, of new keys.

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Like that's just, that's kind of how it works.

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Yeah, I know Twitter's way of mitigating that is probably the blue check nowadays,

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like where they, I love that they kick the celebrities off of their high horses and

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like now everyone can get a blue check.

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It's just a, uh, a small payment per month.

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I don't know if it's 8 or something, but that, uh, as I understand it, that's

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the way to, to fight the bots because like you need to get above a threshold.

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And that kind of exists, uh, in a way on Nostr.

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So Nostr has, it's not the same type of verification that you would have

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on Twitter because nothing is truly being verified except for A website

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exists that says this person has some way of updating a file on this

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webpage, it's a NIP05 Nostr address.

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Nostr Improvement Protocol,

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Improvement Protocol, or no, Nostr Implementation Possibility.

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Yes.

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Uh,

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because you don't have to implement it if you don't want to.

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It's, you know, there's no consensus.

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If you don't want to implement it, you don't have to.

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And possibility was a miss, uh, it was proposal I was thinking

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of, but yeah, possibility.

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Yeah.

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Proposal.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That, that rings a bell.

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. Yeah.

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Yeah,

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Yeah, so, with these Nostr addresses, like, you can kind of have Some type of

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verification that somebody exists, but then bots could sit there and just spin

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up new accounts and constantly just verify themselves over and over and over again.

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So that's not a really good spam, uh, mitigation technique.

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I think the best that we have right now is rate limiting and, uh, and relays.

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being paid.

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It's kind of a paywall.

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So there's free relays that are public that anybody can write to.

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But then there is also the paid relays where maybe it's a monthly fee.

237
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Maybe it's a one time fee, yearly fee, but it's some type of paywall.

238
00:12:27,449 --> 00:12:29,719
Can you lightly refresh the relay client,

239
00:12:29,884 --> 00:12:30,674
Sure, sure.

240
00:12:30,674 --> 00:12:36,439
So Clients are just like your web browser, or just like your email browser, your

241
00:12:36,439 --> 00:12:38,249
email client, your email application.

242
00:12:38,709 --> 00:12:44,929
They connect to relays that store all of your Nostr data.

243
00:12:45,109 --> 00:12:51,329
Relays are just like, uh, servers, they're nodes, and they store all of your events,

244
00:12:51,329 --> 00:12:53,119
all your nodes, all your Nostr content.

245
00:12:53,309 --> 00:12:57,624
A client then connects to, uh, All these different relays that a user

246
00:12:57,624 --> 00:13:02,604
would be utilizing and downloads or pulls the content from the relays.

247
00:13:02,684 --> 00:13:05,214
And then the user sends the content to the relays for other

248
00:13:05,214 --> 00:13:06,744
people to pull, to pull down.

249
00:13:06,934 --> 00:13:10,694
The relays are the, are the real, real, like dumb part of Nostr.

250
00:13:10,714 --> 00:13:14,414
They don't really do anything overly exciting besides store

251
00:13:14,414 --> 00:13:18,204
and house information where clients are, are the power houses.

252
00:13:18,234 --> 00:13:22,944
Clients are the ones that are unique and doing all the, Unique, uh, features

253
00:13:23,084 --> 00:13:25,274
and displaying the content differently.

254
00:13:25,274 --> 00:13:25,544
You have,

255
00:13:25,624 --> 00:13:32,364
So, so is there a risk that it goes the same route as SMTP and email and we end

256
00:13:32,364 --> 00:13:34,650
up with your Hotmail and your Gmails are

257
00:13:35,074 --> 00:13:36,144
centralized servers.

258
00:13:36,144 --> 00:13:41,094
Like there's like, what I can remember running email servers, uh, you know, two

259
00:13:41,094 --> 00:13:42,974
decades ago and it was like no big deal.

260
00:13:42,974 --> 00:13:44,894
And now it's a lot harder.

261
00:13:45,144 --> 00:13:48,164
Uh, you basically get blacklisted by all the big, uh, all the big

262
00:13:48,174 --> 00:13:52,104
companies, uh, for, for being an unknown new host, essentially.

263
00:13:52,134 --> 00:13:54,544
Um, Could we see that?

264
00:13:54,914 --> 00:14:02,964
Maybe, but there's a new methodology that clients are starting to adopt that

265
00:14:02,974 --> 00:14:06,554
drastically improves decentralization.

266
00:14:07,104 --> 00:14:11,454
Right now, we would have to, on the majority of clients right now, for

267
00:14:11,454 --> 00:14:15,454
us to communicate and know each other exists on Nostr, we would have to

268
00:14:15,454 --> 00:14:17,904
share at least one relay in common.

269
00:14:18,384 --> 00:14:21,934
So that way our content is both sent to and pulled from at least

270
00:14:21,934 --> 00:14:23,534
one server that we have in common.

271
00:14:23,664 --> 00:14:26,364
So we know each other exists and we can communicate that way.

272
00:14:27,134 --> 00:14:32,394
Which means you could then have centralization issues where everybody

273
00:14:32,394 --> 00:14:38,369
could be using the same Ten whatever relays in common, and you really don't

274
00:14:38,369 --> 00:14:40,539
want that in a true decentralized model.

275
00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:45,309
So there's a new, there's a new methodology that developers are slowly

276
00:14:45,309 --> 00:14:47,089
starting to implement in their clients.

277
00:14:47,219 --> 00:14:51,919
It's referred to as the outbox model, and the way that this works is, is

278
00:14:51,959 --> 00:14:57,729
that the client will look at all of the people, or all the end pubs, the

279
00:14:57,729 --> 00:15:04,849
profiles that A user is following and go out to that user's relays where they're

280
00:15:04,899 --> 00:15:09,279
publishing their content and pull the content down from that user's relays

281
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:13,879
instead of the initial user's relays.

282
00:15:14,139 --> 00:15:19,639
So it drastically improves decentralization because the two users

283
00:15:19,639 --> 00:15:22,359
don't have to share a relay in common.

284
00:15:22,789 --> 00:15:25,899
The client does all the work pulling the content down from

285
00:15:25,899 --> 00:15:27,049
whichever the relays are.

286
00:15:27,049 --> 00:15:32,329
So I could, in theory, publish all of my content to just like the Derek relay.

287
00:15:33,099 --> 00:15:38,699
And if your client supports this new type of outbox model and you don't use

288
00:15:38,699 --> 00:15:42,429
the Derek relay, you could still see my content because your client knows to go

289
00:15:42,429 --> 00:15:44,269
to the Derek relay to get Derek's content.

290
00:15:44,464 --> 00:15:47,464
but, but nothing is forcing people to implement this model.

291
00:15:47,464 --> 00:15:47,674
Right.

292
00:15:47,764 --> 00:15:49,174
No, no, no, exactly.

293
00:15:49,174 --> 00:15:52,584
So that, that's why right now we don't have every single client across

294
00:15:52,614 --> 00:15:56,674
Nostr using it, but they're, but if clients are built with the, the, uh,

295
00:15:56,734 --> 00:16:02,134
NDK, the Nostr development toolkit, Outbox is supported by default now.

296
00:16:02,544 --> 00:16:08,924
Um, Snort, Iris, Amethyst, uh, Coracle, I believe.

297
00:16:08,924 --> 00:16:11,164
There's a handful of clients that support it now.

298
00:16:11,164 --> 00:16:13,314
And Dalmas doesn't have it yet.

299
00:16:13,374 --> 00:16:16,164
Primal doesn't have it yet, but they, but their developers are both

300
00:16:16,164 --> 00:16:17,654
committed to adding it in the future.

301
00:16:18,144 --> 00:16:22,014
Once all the major clients are doing it, it, it's kind of, it's, it's like

302
00:16:22,014 --> 00:16:24,224
a social consensus at that point.

303
00:16:24,909 --> 00:16:26,349
And just a quick follow on, on this.

304
00:16:26,349 --> 00:16:29,139
I think the distinction, the reason this works in my understanding, right.

305
00:16:29,139 --> 00:16:32,869
Is that most of these relays would be anyone can read, but you have

306
00:16:32,889 --> 00:16:34,569
to have access to write to it.

307
00:16:34,944 --> 00:16:35,944
Is that, is that correct?

308
00:16:35,944 --> 00:16:36,474
And how would you

309
00:16:36,594 --> 00:16:37,094
Yeah.

310
00:16:37,144 --> 00:16:38,094
Well, yeah.

311
00:16:38,194 --> 00:16:42,484
For example, like for my relay, anybody can read from my relay, but only, I only

312
00:16:42,484 --> 00:16:46,184
allow my wife and I to write to my relay, but since everybody in the world can read

313
00:16:46,184 --> 00:16:51,194
from it with the outbox model, you don't have to specifically tell your client.

314
00:16:51,804 --> 00:16:53,744
Or I'm sorry, you don't have to specifically have

315
00:16:53,964 --> 00:16:55,554
my relay on your profile.

316
00:16:55,554 --> 00:16:59,714
Your client will know where my content is and go to my relay to get it for

317
00:16:59,934 --> 00:17:00,334
right?

318
00:17:00,334 --> 00:17:04,484
So a model that actually would in fact work in, in this scenario is

319
00:17:04,484 --> 00:17:09,844
someone signs up for maybe one or two big paid relays, something like that.

320
00:17:10,144 --> 00:17:13,824
And that relay just lets anyone, as long as that policy is that

321
00:17:13,824 --> 00:17:15,364
relay lets anyone read from it.

322
00:17:15,674 --> 00:17:19,534
Then this outbox model would just let people pull down from those paid relays.

323
00:17:19,534 --> 00:17:23,134
And you wouldn't have to join these, these public, large public relay, such

324
00:17:23,134 --> 00:17:24,544
as like the Damus relay, the Primal

325
00:17:24,764 --> 00:17:26,424
Yeah, that, yeah, that's one scenario that would work.

326
00:17:26,424 --> 00:17:31,594
I think we'll see in the future a lot more smaller community based

327
00:17:31,594 --> 00:17:35,554
relays just because that methodology will just work like right now.

328
00:17:35,979 --> 00:17:40,509
If you have all sorts of smaller community relays, you have to know where the

329
00:17:40,509 --> 00:17:42,589
people you follow publish their content.

330
00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,399
And then if they would start publishing it on a new relay and

331
00:17:45,399 --> 00:17:48,569
no longer use that relay, you could lose contact with that person.

332
00:17:48,769 --> 00:17:50,379
So this new method will fix that.

333
00:17:50,989 --> 00:17:57,729
It's, uh, I mean, all of this sounds complicated, and I think like, uh,

334
00:17:57,739 --> 00:18:04,099
do, does Nostr get the masses, uh, like, and can it be fixed with, uh,

335
00:18:04,399 --> 00:18:07,109
improved user interfaces and stuff?

336
00:18:07,139 --> 00:18:07,759
Like how?

337
00:18:08,264 --> 00:18:11,744
Uh, there's always a trade off between usability and security, right?

338
00:18:11,744 --> 00:18:13,464
So like, uh, so how do you see that

339
00:18:13,619 --> 00:18:17,959
I like to say that technology works best once it fades into the background.

340
00:18:18,239 --> 00:18:21,769
You should not know The protocol that you're using.

341
00:18:21,769 --> 00:18:25,029
You shouldn't know how all of the sausage is made.

342
00:18:25,159 --> 00:18:26,629
You should just know, man, I like sausage.

343
00:18:26,629 --> 00:18:27,269
It's delicious.

344
00:18:27,469 --> 00:18:28,729
Like, that's all you need to know.

345
00:18:29,019 --> 00:18:29,389
Right?

346
00:18:29,389 --> 00:18:32,259
Like, and Nostr needs to, to get to that level.

347
00:18:32,259 --> 00:18:33,179
Are we there yet?

348
00:18:33,829 --> 00:18:34,729
Definitely not.

349
00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:40,589
I, I, you know, relays are important, but maybe in the future, whenever a new

350
00:18:40,589 --> 00:18:44,619
user signs in, they don't actually really need to choose the relays that often.

351
00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:46,519
Maybe it's just going to randomize.

352
00:18:47,294 --> 00:18:50,054
You know, there's a thousand relays out there just randomly picks,

353
00:18:50,154 --> 00:18:55,474
uh, six relays or something, a half a dozen relays of at random.

354
00:18:55,514 --> 00:18:58,414
So it's drastically increasing decentralization.

355
00:18:58,804 --> 00:19:00,614
And it does all this in the background.

356
00:19:00,614 --> 00:19:03,654
And then under an advanced setting, you can add your own personal

357
00:19:03,654 --> 00:19:04,764
one or something like that.

358
00:19:04,914 --> 00:19:07,024
And most people won't ever go into advanced settings.

359
00:19:07,034 --> 00:19:09,854
They'll just, they'll just use their app because everything else

360
00:19:09,854 --> 00:19:11,094
just fades into the background.

361
00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:12,699
They'll just use it.

362
00:19:12,699 --> 00:19:15,899
They won't need to know to go in to add media servers or they

363
00:19:15,899 --> 00:19:19,729
won't know to go in that they need to go in and configure relays.

364
00:19:19,729 --> 00:19:22,869
The clients will just do all of this for them because the

365
00:19:22,869 --> 00:19:26,639
technology stack has improved to the point where this can be done.

366
00:19:27,504 --> 00:19:29,134
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

367
00:19:29,364 --> 00:19:33,334
Uh, hope, hopeful it is, but like, yeah, I'm going to continue

368
00:19:33,344 --> 00:19:34,984
on the devil's advocate, like

369
00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:35,709
absolutely.

370
00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:36,279
Fire away.

371
00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:36,499
We need

372
00:19:36,594 --> 00:19:37,849
attack vectors here.

373
00:19:38,159 --> 00:19:44,569
So, uh, so since it's so open and anyone can develop Nostr stuff, like right

374
00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:48,759
now you have the ethos and like all the developers, like, I love that all of

375
00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:54,249
these young 180 IQ developers are now, they're not making shitcoins anymore and

376
00:19:54,269 --> 00:19:58,489
they're They're all on Nostr, and like, I love that fact, because that's, that's

377
00:19:58,489 --> 00:20:00,599
the right usage of that brainpower.

378
00:20:00,939 --> 00:20:06,609
But going forward, and if this really takes off, or when this really takes off,

379
00:20:07,139 --> 00:20:11,859
uh, don't you see, you'll, you'll, don't you think you'll see, uh, I mean, people

380
00:20:11,859 --> 00:20:17,999
with not as ethical intentions get into the space and try to like, take over?

381
00:20:18,184 --> 00:20:19,194
Yeah, I mean, sure.

382
00:20:19,194 --> 00:20:23,568
I think that, you know, uh, Nostr is an open protocol.

383
00:20:23,638 --> 00:20:27,678
So anything will be tried because it can be tried because it's open.

384
00:20:28,528 --> 00:20:32,688
But then we, we need to look at the free market and we

385
00:20:32,688 --> 00:20:34,318
need to look at staying open.

386
00:20:34,338 --> 00:20:39,128
If Nostr is truly permissionless, then yes, shitcoiners should

387
00:20:39,138 --> 00:20:40,638
be able to come build on Nostr.

388
00:20:40,978 --> 00:20:42,628
I don't want to use their clients.

389
00:20:42,908 --> 00:20:44,778
I won't recommend anybody.

390
00:20:45,098 --> 00:20:49,778
To use their clients, they should be able to come and try to build something because

391
00:20:49,778 --> 00:20:57,138
Nostr is open and maybe they'll only have their shitcoin corner of Nostr and they'll

392
00:20:57,138 --> 00:20:58,788
have their own community over here.

393
00:20:58,788 --> 00:21:00,648
The rest of us won't be using that.

394
00:21:01,253 --> 00:21:03,203
And that's, that's probably okay.

395
00:21:03,283 --> 00:21:03,618
Well,

396
00:21:03,738 --> 00:21:05,828
It's all about optionality, right?

397
00:21:06,498 --> 00:21:10,538
that, that I think is, is the, is the issue that Nostr really solves

398
00:21:10,538 --> 00:21:13,198
is because it's giving people choice.

399
00:21:13,598 --> 00:21:16,638
And in legacy social media, you don't really have a lot of choice.

400
00:21:16,638 --> 00:21:19,608
You need to use what you, what is spoon fed to you.

401
00:21:19,608 --> 00:21:24,048
So if somebody wants to come build, you know, uh, Ethereum tipping or

402
00:21:24,118 --> 00:21:26,758
Solana tipping or something on Nostr, I mean, that's, that's, that's.

403
00:21:27,068 --> 00:21:27,488
Cool.

404
00:21:27,498 --> 00:21:28,938
Like I'm not going to use it.

405
00:21:29,008 --> 00:21:33,518
I'm not going to tell my wife to, you know, that she now needs to Ethereum

406
00:21:33,518 --> 00:21:39,528
zap me, you know, but, but the fact that somebody could do it would prove that

407
00:21:39,528 --> 00:21:41,428
Nostr really is permissionless and open.

408
00:22:41,833 --> 00:22:46,173
Yeah, this ties, this leads me directly to a deeper philosophical question.

409
00:22:46,173 --> 00:22:46,233
Yeah.

410
00:22:46,688 --> 00:22:49,778
Because, uh, in your mind, what happens first?

411
00:22:49,778 --> 00:22:52,288
Hypernostrification or hyperbitcoinization?

412
00:22:52,668 --> 00:22:56,628
And the reason I ask this now is like, uh, because if we get

413
00:22:56,628 --> 00:23:03,143
hyperbitcoinization first, then it might be harder for, uh, for shitcoins or

414
00:23:03,593 --> 00:23:04,113
Oh yeah.

415
00:23:04,348 --> 00:23:06,158
But in your mind, what happens first of the two?

416
00:23:06,693 --> 00:23:07,653
I, I don't know.

417
00:23:07,793 --> 00:23:11,533
Again, we're going to go to a Derekism, another saying I like to say.

418
00:23:11,643 --> 00:23:14,523
I like to say that the purple pill helps the orange pill go down.

419
00:23:15,143 --> 00:23:15,673
And

420
00:23:15,818 --> 00:23:16,588
So it's lube.

421
00:23:18,303 --> 00:23:25,333
I think that, I think that we, we see more Nostr adoption first, and that helps

422
00:23:25,363 --> 00:23:29,913
with Bitcoin adoption through just ease of use and fun and frictionless manners.

423
00:23:30,143 --> 00:23:33,363
I really think that, you know, we know the money's broken,

424
00:23:33,363 --> 00:23:35,043
but social's also broken too.

425
00:23:35,053 --> 00:23:43,138
So, but I don't think, uh, The world is, is entirely going to move to Bitcoin.

426
00:23:43,138 --> 00:23:45,228
You know, we're going to see hyperbitcoinization in the next couple

427
00:23:45,228 --> 00:23:49,828
of years, but maybe we'll see hyper Nostrification in the next couple of

428
00:23:49,838 --> 00:23:55,628
years as applications slowly start to rebuild and, and try out Nostr

429
00:23:55,658 --> 00:23:57,048
and see how that works for them.

430
00:23:57,048 --> 00:23:57,458
And then.

431
00:23:57,778 --> 00:24:01,588
And then from there, you know, they get on boarded to, to Bitcoin through that.

432
00:24:02,573 --> 00:24:07,747
So the reason that the web is broken, and the reason social media is

433
00:24:07,747 --> 00:24:11,283
broken, is that because of bad money.

434
00:24:11,473 --> 00:24:13,173
Like, what's the correlation there?

435
00:24:13,223 --> 00:24:14,763
Like, have you thought about that?

436
00:24:15,438 --> 00:24:23,318
Maybe I like to think back to, you know, two decades ago, if you wanted

437
00:24:23,318 --> 00:24:28,896
to run a server out of your house to run your own media server, your own,

438
00:24:28,896 --> 00:24:32,296
you know, photos, your own documents, you know, movies, music, whatever

439
00:24:32,296 --> 00:24:34,056
you wanted to do, any type of social.

440
00:24:34,429 --> 00:24:35,629
you really couldn't do it.

441
00:24:35,639 --> 00:24:37,859
Like we didn't really have the infrastructure or the

442
00:24:37,859 --> 00:24:39,109
technology to really do it.

443
00:24:39,159 --> 00:24:42,279
It was very expensive to run a server at home.

444
00:24:43,099 --> 00:24:46,069
we didn't have point and click installs for the average person.

445
00:24:46,459 --> 00:24:50,089
We didn't have point and click, you know, setups for in configurations

446
00:24:50,089 --> 00:24:52,609
for route routers, we just didn't have the technology.

447
00:24:53,459 --> 00:24:56,979
For the average person to do it, you know, if, if you're a, you know,

448
00:24:56,979 --> 00:24:59,619
systems administrator, network engineer, sure, you can do all that stuff.

449
00:24:59,629 --> 00:25:04,189
I mean, I was doing that 20 years ago too, but nobody else, you know, besides people

450
00:25:04,189 --> 00:25:05,929
in that like profession really did that.

451
00:25:06,339 --> 00:25:13,909
Nowadays, you can spend 50 and buy a raspberry pi and Install piece of software

452
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:17,849
on it and touch a couple buttons and boom, you can deploy all these home services.

453
00:25:18,666 --> 00:25:20,346
so get back to your question.

454
00:25:20,346 --> 00:25:25,376
I think that since we couldn't do that 20 years ago, 30 years ago,

455
00:25:26,176 --> 00:25:30,756
we moved the technology stack into these large data centers where.

456
00:25:31,176 --> 00:25:34,626
The technology existed for people to run these services because they

457
00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:38,346
had the software, they had the high bandwidth, they had the, you know,

458
00:25:38,346 --> 00:25:40,356
the, the fast servers, computers.

459
00:25:40,586 --> 00:25:44,626
So we moved everything into these data centers and we trusted these

460
00:25:44,626 --> 00:25:48,556
large technology companies because they had the resources to do that.

461
00:25:49,166 --> 00:25:52,726
But then as technology improves, the infrastructure improves.

462
00:25:53,201 --> 00:25:55,201
Software improves and becomes easier.

463
00:25:55,201 --> 00:25:58,031
Now we can start pulling that out of the data center and

464
00:25:58,031 --> 00:25:59,141
the users can do it at home.

465
00:25:59,291 --> 00:26:02,054
I don't think it's related to bad money.

466
00:26:02,054 --> 00:26:06,134
I just think it's related to, you know, uh, we can use the worst or early meme.

467
00:26:06,144 --> 00:26:09,884
You know, we were, we were early, so we moved to centralization because we

468
00:26:09,884 --> 00:26:14,374
had to, and now that we've advanced enough, you know, now we can kind of.

469
00:26:14,774 --> 00:26:16,404
Recapture that and pull it back.

470
00:26:16,534 --> 00:26:16,934
Yeah.

471
00:26:17,709 --> 00:26:20,919
actually, I actually like that, that argument for this because I mean, it,

472
00:26:20,939 --> 00:26:22,839
it comes, it's the gold thing, right?

473
00:26:22,859 --> 00:26:25,939
Like the, the gold physically couldn't do these things, but

474
00:26:25,949 --> 00:26:28,029
now Bitcoin, Bitcoin does that.

475
00:26:28,029 --> 00:26:30,069
So, so gold centralized into vaults.

476
00:26:30,539 --> 00:26:31,909
Because that was just the way that

477
00:26:31,964 --> 00:26:33,884
And fiat solved that problem.

478
00:26:34,519 --> 00:26:35,019
exactly.

479
00:26:35,049 --> 00:26:38,049
So, so, so now maybe, maybe what you're saying is that, yeah, at the

480
00:26:38,059 --> 00:26:41,069
time, the actual server infrastructure had to be centralized like that.

481
00:26:41,069 --> 00:26:42,699
And now there's a decentralized alternative.

482
00:26:42,699 --> 00:26:43,489
I, I can buy that.

483
00:26:43,694 --> 00:26:48,307
And, and here's, here's a, here's a really, like, a thought on this,

484
00:26:48,377 --> 00:26:54,917
uh, maybe fiat money and, uh, you know, the, our kids take the bill

485
00:26:54,917 --> 00:26:59,367
and pushing things forward faster and faster, uh, that led to the computer

486
00:26:59,367 --> 00:27:01,087
revolution and the internet revolution.

487
00:27:01,437 --> 00:27:04,567
If that had been done in a sounder way, then maybe the internet would

488
00:27:04,567 --> 00:27:08,507
have developed slower, but in a more sound way, and we would have, yeah.

489
00:27:08,557 --> 00:27:12,437
maybe, maybe the, you know, technology, be a technology bills getting

490
00:27:12,437 --> 00:27:15,257
published and, and, uh, in, yeah.

491
00:27:15,257 --> 00:27:19,807
And money printing to fund, you know, so they just build fast and

492
00:27:19,807 --> 00:27:21,287
quick and they built too fast.

493
00:27:21,287 --> 00:27:23,977
Maybe to, it wasn't sustainable.

494
00:27:24,167 --> 00:27:26,507
The only way to be sustainable was to centralize who knows.

495
00:27:26,862 --> 00:27:28,042
It's all related to bad money.

496
00:27:28,132 --> 00:27:28,642
I get it.

497
00:27:29,357 --> 00:27:33,617
My tip is to not spend 50 on a raspberry pi, but spend a couple of hundred

498
00:27:33,617 --> 00:27:35,457
bucks and buy a start 9 instead.

499
00:27:35,822 --> 00:27:36,692
Yeah, yeah, totally.

500
00:27:36,692 --> 00:27:37,402
Something like that.

501
00:27:37,422 --> 00:27:39,667
Like, uh, uh, something that, uh, Definitely has

502
00:27:39,677 --> 00:27:41,437
the slightly more resources.

503
00:27:41,437 --> 00:27:45,297
And I mean, I think definitely, uh, we, we had, uh, someone asked

504
00:27:45,297 --> 00:27:48,847
the question at the noob day about, about running relays and everything.

505
00:27:48,847 --> 00:27:52,527
And I mean, it's great that people are actually wanting to do the self sovereign

506
00:27:52,527 --> 00:27:56,802
thing with Nostr the same way as they, Do with the Bitcoin nodes and stuff.

507
00:27:56,802 --> 00:27:59,192
And it's great to see that these like node in the box

508
00:27:59,572 --> 00:27:59,952
Yeah.

509
00:28:00,262 --> 00:28:02,592
are actually making that easy for people.

510
00:28:02,592 --> 00:28:06,352
So maybe, maybe here's like a, like a practical thing, uh, just like a little

511
00:28:06,352 --> 00:28:09,362
bit on running your own relay and being as self sovereign as possible.

512
00:28:09,362 --> 00:28:12,642
And Nostr, um, do you have some thoughts on that?

513
00:28:12,962 --> 00:28:13,412
Yeah.

514
00:28:13,412 --> 00:28:16,512
So I, I personally run two different relays.

515
00:28:16,732 --> 00:28:22,342
I run a relay on my phone just to basically act as a place for my

516
00:28:22,352 --> 00:28:24,532
DMs and my offline notes to go.

517
00:28:24,942 --> 00:28:27,612
So I can have my, I'm sorry, not DMs.

518
00:28:27,612 --> 00:28:28,222
I meant drafts.

519
00:28:28,272 --> 00:28:30,922
The other D with drafts for my drafts to go.

520
00:28:30,922 --> 00:28:36,162
And then for my offline notes to go, I run a relay in my house for my wife and

521
00:28:36,162 --> 00:28:37,702
I to use, as I had mentioned earlier.

522
00:28:37,702 --> 00:28:42,062
And I do a little bit more of a complicated method because I

523
00:28:42,062 --> 00:28:47,192
want my relay in my house to be accessible from the outside world.

524
00:28:47,612 --> 00:28:52,052
That piece of the puzzle was still a little bit technical because you have

525
00:28:52,052 --> 00:28:58,142
to configure some network settings to allow the outside world to connect in to

526
00:28:58,152 --> 00:28:59,752
a computer that you're running at home.

527
00:28:59,792 --> 00:29:03,316
So that, portion of it isn't like point and click easy yet.

528
00:29:03,796 --> 00:29:09,126
But, if you do have a start nine or you do have an umbral, you can point and

529
00:29:09,126 --> 00:29:11,036
click to have a relay at home installed.

530
00:29:11,426 --> 00:29:15,306
And then while you're at home on, you know, Wi Fi or if you have a

531
00:29:15,306 --> 00:29:18,156
desktop, it's hardwired, whatever, anything that's on your home network

532
00:29:18,166 --> 00:29:20,316
can easily use those local relays.

533
00:29:20,886 --> 00:29:25,146
And then if you want to access them from the outside world, you have to know that

534
00:29:25,146 --> 00:29:30,516
networking piece that I was just talking about, or you need to use like a home VPN.

535
00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:32,526
Or something like tail scale.

536
00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:34,216
And then you can accomplish that.

537
00:29:34,446 --> 00:29:38,736
But it's a little bit of a friction piece there, but if you

538
00:29:38,736 --> 00:29:40,276
want to do it, you still can.

539
00:29:40,891 --> 00:29:47,321
So, so when will my 78 year old mother, um, fire up a Nostr, keep her?

540
00:29:48,416 --> 00:29:49,036
I don't know.

541
00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:49,556
You know what?

542
00:29:49,556 --> 00:29:51,726
Maybe does she use social media now?

543
00:29:52,031 --> 00:29:52,751
Yeah, she does.

544
00:29:52,786 --> 00:29:53,626
What does she use?

545
00:29:54,251 --> 00:29:55,241
Facebook, mainly.

546
00:29:55,506 --> 00:29:56,046
Okay.

547
00:29:56,456 --> 00:30:00,146
Well, maybe, maybe someday I, you know, I think Facebook's

548
00:30:00,176 --> 00:30:01,406
going to be a holdout on this.

549
00:30:01,406 --> 00:30:01,756
I think.

550
00:30:02,136 --> 00:30:05,166
Maybe we'll see Elon do it in the next, uh, you know, two or three

551
00:30:05,166 --> 00:30:11,049
years, but I think someday we'll, we'll see a legacy, a large legacy.

552
00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:17,179
Traditional social media client turn into a very highly customized Nostr client

553
00:30:17,289 --> 00:30:18,759
and users really won't even know it.

554
00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:22,839
They'll custody the keys for the user, give you a username and password.

555
00:30:23,179 --> 00:30:24,259
They'll do all of that stuff.

556
00:30:24,259 --> 00:30:30,569
It'll be a, maybe a very, uh, filtered relay, maybe moderated relay, who knows.

557
00:30:30,589 --> 00:30:35,039
But it'll essentially look the same and function the same for users, except

558
00:30:35,439 --> 00:30:37,649
they'll be connected to the Nostrverse.

559
00:30:37,689 --> 00:30:41,439
You know, they'll be publishing publicly to Nostr, and they won't even know it yet.

560
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:45,049
So maybe when that happens, uh, then she'll have her keys.

561
00:30:45,399 --> 00:30:49,599
Otherwise, I don't know, I think the onboarding process needs

562
00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:51,029
to be improved a little bit

563
00:30:51,179 --> 00:30:51,499
Mm hmm.

564
00:30:52,224 --> 00:30:56,164
We can have 78 year olds, uh, actively using Nostr.

565
00:30:56,254 --> 00:30:58,774
I'm going to, there's going to be a 78 year old that uses Nostr

566
00:30:58,774 --> 00:30:59,624
is not going to yell at me.

567
00:30:59,624 --> 00:31:03,224
I know, but, but I think it needs to be easier.

568
00:31:03,429 --> 00:31:03,859
Boomer.

569
00:31:04,364 --> 00:31:04,564
Yeah.

570
00:31:05,174 --> 00:31:08,594
Well, some 78 year olds are more tech savvy than others,

571
00:31:08,859 --> 00:31:12,319
Yes, yes, most of them are more tech savvy than my mother for sure.

572
00:31:13,104 --> 00:31:13,694
there you go.

573
00:31:14,034 --> 00:31:19,594
But this actually leads to another point here, is that the Twitter alternatives are

574
00:31:19,594 --> 00:31:22,564
really the clients that are the big thing.

575
00:31:22,774 --> 00:31:27,404
And actually, I think even people who are in the Nostr ecosystem already,

576
00:31:27,694 --> 00:31:31,854
Don't really do much outside of these Twitter alternatives, but there are other

577
00:31:31,854 --> 00:31:35,664
ways to display the Nostr information that looks a lot different, right?

578
00:31:35,934 --> 00:31:36,954
Can you go into that a little bit?

579
00:31:37,069 --> 00:31:41,439
yeah, I think that the reasons that Twitter alternatives are the most popular

580
00:31:41,439 --> 00:31:44,729
is because that's what we needed most, you know, and that's what was the most

581
00:31:44,739 --> 00:31:48,999
popular use case in the beginning, and it still holds true today, but it's also

582
00:31:48,999 --> 00:31:54,379
because These applications kind of manage the key for you, like on your device.

583
00:31:54,729 --> 00:31:59,039
And a lot of this other stuff, a lot of these new unique use cases

584
00:31:59,719 --> 00:32:03,489
are web applications, they're websites, and people don't want to

585
00:32:03,489 --> 00:32:07,309
just go and paste their private key, their NSEC into a random website,

586
00:32:07,309 --> 00:32:08,804
which you should never do anyways.

587
00:32:09,774 --> 00:32:15,544
I found out that using extensions is something a lot of people don't use.

588
00:32:16,184 --> 00:32:19,234
Like, with my app, NostrNest.

589
00:32:19,254 --> 00:32:22,774
com, so many people just don't use extensions.

590
00:32:22,774 --> 00:32:24,814
And you need to use an extension to sign in.

591
00:32:25,674 --> 00:32:28,534
The extension manages your key for you on the web.

592
00:32:28,684 --> 00:32:32,864
It acts as like your, your, your key management signing device.

593
00:32:33,274 --> 00:32:34,999
And a lot of people just don't use it.

594
00:32:35,399 --> 00:32:37,069
I would tell them, oh, you need to use an extension.

595
00:32:37,069 --> 00:32:38,349
They're like, well, how do I use an extension?

596
00:32:38,829 --> 00:32:40,559
It's like, oh, you just need to go here and install that.

597
00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:42,529
And so many people just aren't familiar with it.

598
00:32:42,689 --> 00:32:44,849
It's really, that was really surprising to me.

599
00:32:45,069 --> 00:32:50,589
So my, my point is, is that the other stuff, while it can be very exciting

600
00:32:50,589 --> 00:32:54,610
and unique and fun and cool, it's not used as much because I think

601
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:59,495
signing into all these web apps is, Very different from the average user.

602
00:32:59,775 --> 00:33:01,765
They're used to using a username and password.

603
00:33:01,765 --> 00:33:06,145
They're not used to have having to go and install an extension in Safari

604
00:33:06,145 --> 00:33:10,575
or install a whole nother web browser on Android or a whole nother app,

605
00:33:10,765 --> 00:33:12,835
you know, to, to access a website.

606
00:33:12,845 --> 00:33:14,135
That's weird.

607
00:33:14,465 --> 00:33:17,085
You know, it's a little too different.

608
00:33:17,395 --> 00:33:23,865
And once that workflow improves, then maybe we'll see, you know, your, your,

609
00:33:23,865 --> 00:33:27,755
uh, your Twitch alternative or your, uh, medium alternative, like blow up.

610
00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:29,610
And become more popular.

611
00:33:29,790 --> 00:33:32,710
Well, and actually the funny thing is almost the counterintuitive

612
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:34,330
thing is the experience.

613
00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:36,830
Once you have the extension set up and you just go

614
00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:37,530
Oh, it's easy

615
00:33:37,550 --> 00:33:40,500
clients, like frictionless, it's perfect.

616
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,640
Maybe you get annoyed by having to click a yes.

617
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,560
I agree to these transaction types a few

618
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:48,480
But once you get over that hurdle of installing the extension, putting

619
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,480
your private key into it and logging into that first website where it says,

620
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,620
Hey, you're trying to log in and this website wants to know who you are.

621
00:33:54,620 --> 00:33:55,470
Do you want to allow it?

622
00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:56,100
Yes.

623
00:33:57,010 --> 00:33:59,850
You're, you're going to post something and you know, do you want

624
00:33:59,850 --> 00:34:01,450
to have this post to your profile?

625
00:34:01,450 --> 00:34:01,760
Yes.

626
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,200
Once you understand how that works, then it's a no brainer, but it's

627
00:34:05,260 --> 00:34:08,200
just that first technical hurdle that so many people struggle with.

628
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:13,800
But hopefully we can make this, I say the royal we, you know, hopefully we, uh,

629
00:34:13,830 --> 00:34:18,360
Nostr developers can make this easier, uh, you know, in the, in the coming future.

630
00:34:18,432 --> 00:34:22,082
it's, it's, it's like, it's, it's the natural innovation beyond because,

631
00:34:22,082 --> 00:34:26,382
because a lot of, a lot of services had been adopting a password lists, uh,

632
00:34:26,452 --> 00:34:30,602
authentication model, basically just send it, send a code to your email address.

633
00:34:31,027 --> 00:34:32,287
And, and I like that model.

634
00:34:32,287 --> 00:34:33,937
I think that's a, that's a lot more secure.

635
00:34:33,937 --> 00:34:37,267
You just have to worry about your, your email being secure basically.

636
00:34:37,477 --> 00:34:41,737
But then you go, you go one next, one, next level, and it's everything is

637
00:34:41,737 --> 00:34:44,107
from that, that ansec, that key pair.

638
00:34:44,107 --> 00:34:44,917
It's, yeah.

639
00:34:44,917 --> 00:34:48,277
Yeah, like, I mean, we are Nostr pilled as far as the, the, the

640
00:34:48,277 --> 00:34:49,687
use case and, and what it is.

641
00:34:49,687 --> 00:34:53,767
But it comes down to, I think, a little more of the, the pain points and, and

642
00:34:53,767 --> 00:34:55,837
the usability of it, because I mean.

643
00:34:56,657 --> 00:35:01,517
I will use Nostr, like the, the feed and everything, but I'll also use the,

644
00:35:01,517 --> 00:35:05,177
the Twitter feed as well because there's just so much more information on that.

645
00:35:05,787 --> 00:35:10,167
And, and the thing is, my current thing that, that I would like to, to

646
00:35:10,167 --> 00:35:14,717
see improvement on, or at least my, my ability to make my own improvements

647
00:35:14,717 --> 00:35:16,277
on is the algorithm selection.

648
00:35:16,972 --> 00:35:20,562
And, and I know you've got a talk, uh, coming up about this, like how to

649
00:35:20,562 --> 00:35:23,072
tailor your own algorithm, basically.

650
00:35:23,072 --> 00:35:26,992
And so before I give any other specific questions on this topic,

651
00:35:27,142 --> 00:35:29,972
could you preview, uh, what you're going to talk about in terms of how to

652
00:35:30,042 --> 00:35:30,622
Sure.

653
00:35:30,862 --> 00:35:31,212
Sure.

654
00:35:31,292 --> 00:35:35,182
So even though not, there is no blockchain, time chain, whatever for

655
00:35:35,182 --> 00:35:38,972
Nostr, I like to say that Nostr is a proof of work protocol because there

656
00:35:38,972 --> 00:35:41,982
are no algorithms at the protocol level.

657
00:35:41,982 --> 00:35:42,102
Cool.

658
00:35:42,102 --> 00:35:42,122
Cool.

659
00:35:42,322 --> 00:35:47,612
And the content isn't necessarily all the time brought forward for you.

660
00:35:47,612 --> 00:35:49,102
You're not spoonfed content.

661
00:35:49,262 --> 00:35:50,952
So that means you have to do the work.

662
00:35:51,112 --> 00:35:52,802
You have to put in the work to be social.

663
00:35:52,802 --> 00:35:56,162
You have to do the work to get discovered and to discover content.

664
00:35:56,172 --> 00:35:59,862
And people aren't so much used to that anymore because they're used to

665
00:35:59,872 --> 00:36:04,102
being spoonfed a fire hose of content from your, your major platform.

666
00:36:04,102 --> 00:36:09,632
So with Nostr, we have the ability to regain and control our attention.

667
00:36:09,967 --> 00:36:11,967
And we can control our social experience.

668
00:36:12,407 --> 00:36:14,344
So you have to do the work.

669
00:36:14,344 --> 00:36:19,184
You have to go out and comment on people's posts and you have to socially engage.

670
00:36:19,404 --> 00:36:21,254
You need to let people know that you're here.

671
00:36:21,254 --> 00:36:22,564
You have to make your voice heard.

672
00:36:22,784 --> 00:36:24,314
You have to interact with people.

673
00:36:24,314 --> 00:36:25,694
You know, you have to zap people.

674
00:36:25,694 --> 00:36:27,824
You have to just be social.

675
00:36:27,824 --> 00:36:33,914
And it's really, it's just an interesting take because right now on these

676
00:36:33,944 --> 00:36:38,324
traditional platforms, you can kind of just lurk and have a decent experience

677
00:36:38,334 --> 00:36:39,994
because you're, you're fed content.

678
00:36:40,314 --> 00:36:45,644
And on Nostr, that isn't the case most of the time, but now we have these, uh,

679
00:36:46,744 --> 00:36:51,764
algorithm stores that are starting to pop up, where you, you can use them if

680
00:36:51,764 --> 00:36:55,714
you want to, you, it's not a requirement, which is, you know, like, maybe on, you

681
00:36:55,714 --> 00:37:00,254
know, Twitter or Instagram or something like that, like, you, the algorithm is, is

682
00:37:00,254 --> 00:37:05,269
there, and maybe you can view a different feed, but It's, it's, uh, not the default.

683
00:37:05,269 --> 00:37:09,919
And, and right now, like Nostr clients, the default is your chronological feed.

684
00:37:09,919 --> 00:37:11,799
And as, if that's what you want, you can always have it.

685
00:37:12,114 --> 00:37:17,934
But if you want to do some algorithm, you know, you want to experience something

686
00:37:17,934 --> 00:37:19,654
else, you can choose to do that.

687
00:37:19,934 --> 00:37:22,104
And it's open and transparent.

688
00:37:22,114 --> 00:37:25,394
So you could go and look at the algorithm that, you know, if you were

689
00:37:25,394 --> 00:37:26,934
a developer to see what it's doing.

690
00:37:27,664 --> 00:37:28,534
And that's just unique.

691
00:37:28,544 --> 00:37:30,834
We don't really have that type of user choice.

692
00:37:31,264 --> 00:37:33,544
So you can be your own algorithm socially.

693
00:37:33,894 --> 00:37:36,149
Or you can use an algorithm that somebody else built.

694
00:38:41,375 --> 00:38:41,675
All right.

695
00:38:41,675 --> 00:38:45,575
So, so I think this, this was sort of, at least partially, uh,

696
00:38:45,765 --> 00:38:47,395
an answer to my next question.

697
00:38:47,395 --> 00:38:50,785
And this, this is something I talked to Giacomo about, but because of

698
00:38:50,785 --> 00:38:55,035
the very reasons you just mentioned, you get very high quality people on

699
00:38:55,035 --> 00:38:58,415
Nostr and people who agree with one another and are nice and friendly to

700
00:38:58,415 --> 00:39:01,485
one another and you take care, it's your reputational capital and so on.

701
00:39:02,795 --> 00:39:03,335
But.

702
00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:07,670
Many people are on Twitter for, for the opposite reason, that

703
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:08,770
they want to argue with people.

704
00:39:08,770 --> 00:39:11,600
So how do we get more assholes on Nostr that are wrong on

705
00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:12,570
the internet, you know, and

706
00:39:12,655 --> 00:39:13,345
you know, I,

707
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:16,615
Yeah.

708
00:39:17,055 --> 00:39:22,925
Um, but I like to say that these algorithms on these traditional

709
00:39:22,925 --> 00:39:27,355
platforms were built to keep us enraged and engaged because if we're

710
00:39:27,365 --> 00:39:33,745
constantly upset and engaged, we're going to be using the application more.

711
00:39:33,765 --> 00:39:35,245
We're going to see more ads.

712
00:39:35,585 --> 00:39:38,455
Ads are going to make more, they're going to make more money.

713
00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:43,010
And it's going to fuel them to build bigger, better, more algorithms.

714
00:39:43,010 --> 00:39:44,910
We're going to, they're going to be more honed in.

715
00:39:44,910 --> 00:39:46,220
We're going to use the app more.

716
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,830
We're going to be more engaged and more enraged.

717
00:39:47,830 --> 00:39:50,000
And it's just, it's just a never ending cycle.

718
00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:55,670
I, I think that sure, if somebody wanted to build an asshole algorithm

719
00:39:55,670 --> 00:40:00,930
and just only show you controversial, mean content on Nostr, it's open.

720
00:40:00,930 --> 00:40:01,840
You can do that.

721
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,400
And then they, they can have their asshole feed, I guess.

722
00:40:05,075 --> 00:40:12,405
But, but, okay, this ties into a more serious point, uh, if, if the, um,

723
00:40:12,445 --> 00:40:17,765
traditional platforms are optimized for engagement and, and, uh, you know,

724
00:40:17,815 --> 00:40:23,865
yeah, to keep you on, how does Nostr take off if it doesn't have that drug,

725
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:24,580
Yeah, sure.

726
00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:30,300
I, I mean, maybe I'm being too optimistic here, but I think most humans are

727
00:40:30,310 --> 00:40:34,430
generally, uh, you know, want to be good people and, and don't want to

728
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,830
be bad and negative all the time.

729
00:40:37,070 --> 00:40:41,790
It's just that, you know, like media has, it really portrays that

730
00:40:41,790 --> 00:40:45,540
and it really fuels that it's, you know, clown world also is very

731
00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:47,400
upsetting to people sometimes too.

732
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:51,240
And it drives their social experiences that way.

733
00:40:51,550 --> 00:40:55,030
Like, I like to say, again, another Derek ism is that, you know, we're

734
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:57,000
doom scrolling on other platforms.

735
00:40:57,310 --> 00:41:00,550
But humans weren't born to doom scroll, they should bloom scroll, right?

736
00:41:01,230 --> 00:41:05,370
Like people want to be good, I hope, maybe I'm wrong here.

737
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,350
If you're surrounded by good content, it's going to make you more positive.

738
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:13,270
If you're surrounded by negative content, it's going to make you more negative.

739
00:41:13,570 --> 00:41:18,180
Yeah, yeah, I certainly hope that people will use it more, because it

740
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:23,810
ties into why newspapers that have aggressive headlines and like fearful

741
00:41:23,810 --> 00:41:27,670
headlines sell better, like, because our brains are wired to, for fear,

742
00:41:27,865 --> 00:41:28,865
Yeah, exactly.

743
00:41:29,175 --> 00:41:30,285
We need, we need to change that.

744
00:41:30,285 --> 00:41:31,165
We need to take it back.

745
00:41:31,195 --> 00:41:32,835
We need to use Nostr to take it back.

746
00:41:32,835 --> 00:41:35,435
Like, like, uh, we, we should, we, we should be selling

747
00:41:35,435 --> 00:41:36,785
good stuff, not bad stuff.

748
00:41:37,380 --> 00:41:38,540
I totally agree, uh,

749
00:41:38,625 --> 00:41:39,765
Is it going to work in practice?

750
00:41:39,785 --> 00:41:40,065
I don't

751
00:41:40,190 --> 00:41:41,825
we'll see, we'll see.

752
00:41:42,105 --> 00:41:46,745
actually, so, so part of the practical thing on this, you can, you can

753
00:41:46,755 --> 00:41:50,260
scroll virtually infinitely on these, on these, these, uh, Twitter apps.

754
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:53,310
But Nostr, there always is some kind of limit.

755
00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:55,020
And let me explain what I mean by that.

756
00:41:55,250 --> 00:42:00,740
So the, the, there's, in Primal, for example, Primal being the, the app that I

757
00:42:00,740 --> 00:42:05,400
use mostly on the, the web and the phone now, I do like, uh, some others such as,

758
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,170
uh, Amethyst, and I've, I've tried other, other, uh, Um, clients for, for the web,

759
00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:15,230
great to have the variety, but mostly I use Primal for the ease of use factor.

760
00:42:15,230 --> 00:42:17,500
You got into this, uh, at the noob day a little bit.

761
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:22,690
but the, the two styles of, of feed that I get there through, through

762
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:24,630
Primal is basically a, a latest.

763
00:42:25,090 --> 00:42:29,050
A, a version of latest and a version of, uh, trending.

764
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:35,620
Something like trending and the, the ways that, so, okay, not to overcomplicate

765
00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:40,240
this exactly, but I, I like, uh, for example, concepts of, uh, your

766
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:45,280
tribe, the, the, the people who you follow and who follow you Exactly.

767
00:42:45,490 --> 00:42:47,770
Li limits based on the web of trust, I think.

768
00:42:47,770 --> 00:42:51,010
I think that's good And primal gives you tools to limit.

769
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:55,620
So if you decide you want to see a wider feed, maybe you get the

770
00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:57,760
people who your followers follow.

771
00:42:58,090 --> 00:43:01,280
And then when I click that, I always get a whole ton of Japanese

772
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,960
and Thai stuff like that, right?

773
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,710
So, so it's, it's funny that it's, it's, it's not quite perfect at that level.

774
00:43:07,850 --> 00:43:10,680
To be able to discover new stuff.

775
00:43:11,110 --> 00:43:11,390
Okay.

776
00:43:11,390 --> 00:43:13,840
I'm, this is actually going to be multiple questions.

777
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,560
So maybe we'll, maybe we'll start with that one.

778
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:21,650
But how do you discover new stuff on, on Nostr that isn't like the

779
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,390
top, top, top most trending thing?

780
00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:24,860
Cause this is another side of the problem.

781
00:43:25,110 --> 00:43:29,070
Uh, but isn't someone that you already know and already follow.

782
00:43:29,105 --> 00:43:35,595
so I use uh, my main client is Amethyst and there's several clients now that

783
00:43:35,595 --> 00:43:37,705
support these things called DVMs.

784
00:43:38,135 --> 00:43:40,165
It stands for Data Vending Machine.

785
00:43:40,175 --> 00:43:46,515
It, it, it sounds kinda, you know, nerdy but all it is, is a, an algorithm, really.

786
00:43:46,525 --> 00:43:50,005
I mean, that, an algorithm that is executed when somebody says,

787
00:43:50,005 --> 00:43:54,395
hey, I want to, I want to, Require this, I want to obtain this piece

788
00:43:54,395 --> 00:43:56,225
of data from you, give it to me.

789
00:43:56,435 --> 00:43:59,105
Some of these data vending machines may be free.

790
00:43:59,135 --> 00:44:02,515
Some of them may be like a vending machine where you pay it some sats, and then

791
00:44:02,515 --> 00:44:06,575
it gives you the data, the algorithms executed after it gets, it gets paid.

792
00:44:06,915 --> 00:44:10,235
So I use DVMs to find new content.

793
00:44:10,245 --> 00:44:12,805
Like that's part of that, that whole algorithm to discover content.

794
00:44:12,815 --> 00:44:14,175
There's all sorts of different ones.

795
00:44:14,415 --> 00:44:15,375
Like maybe I want to.

796
00:44:15,645 --> 00:44:21,465
Find, uh, popular notes of cats or dogs, fluffy friends

797
00:44:21,465 --> 00:44:22,695
is what I think it's called.

798
00:44:22,855 --> 00:44:26,845
Or maybe I want to find, uh, a trending, or there's a, there's a

799
00:44:26,845 --> 00:44:28,965
new DVM that was suggested recently.

800
00:44:28,965 --> 00:44:29,815
It's really cool.

801
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:33,530
It, it finds the latest note from people you follow.

802
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:39,060
So if you constantly are posting in the feed every single day, all day long,

803
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,270
and then there's other people that maybe post once a week or something,

804
00:44:42,420 --> 00:44:44,670
they wouldn't, you would never see their content because they're always

805
00:44:44,670 --> 00:44:46,450
drowned out by more active users.

806
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:50,760
So this new data vending machine, uh, like algorithm, it'll go out

807
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,970
there and find just the top latest note from somebody you follow.

808
00:44:53,970 --> 00:44:56,790
So it's just a feed of like latest notes and that's a, that's

809
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:58,330
a way to find content that you.

810
00:44:58,575 --> 00:45:03,182
Might generally miss, um, and that there's actually one called, something

811
00:45:03,182 --> 00:45:06,482
like what, while you were away or find content while you weren't active,

812
00:45:06,482 --> 00:45:07,872
or something like that on Nostr.

813
00:45:07,892 --> 00:45:09,812
And it tries to find content for you that way.

814
00:45:09,812 --> 00:45:12,872
There's all these unique ways to find content and, and now that

815
00:45:13,282 --> 00:45:17,332
they're showing up more and more clients like no strudel and cortical.

816
00:45:17,997 --> 00:45:22,707
Coracle does some really neat stuff on, uh, discoverability, uh, content,

817
00:45:23,217 --> 00:45:24,487
you know, finding content now.

818
00:45:24,487 --> 00:45:27,637
And this gets back to building your own, your own algorithm.

819
00:45:27,637 --> 00:45:30,717
If you want that and you use these clients and it helps you, you

820
00:45:30,717 --> 00:45:33,897
find content and you're right.

821
00:45:33,907 --> 00:45:35,567
Like sometimes they're not perfect.

822
00:45:35,567 --> 00:45:39,407
Like maybe you'll see like some, uh, content from other languages, you

823
00:45:39,407 --> 00:45:41,417
know, but you know, that, uh, yeah.

824
00:45:41,536 --> 00:45:42,856
It's fine that that exists.

825
00:45:42,856 --> 00:45:45,176
It's just not relevant to me at all.

826
00:45:45,246 --> 00:45:47,186
Uh, and, and I mean, I know there are

827
00:45:47,277 --> 00:45:51,337
that's a feature, maybe, maybe that's a, a, a, a filter or something like that

828
00:45:51,337 --> 00:45:57,227
on a client that needs to be built in is only show content from my native, or

829
00:45:57,227 --> 00:46:02,227
from my language that I post, normally post in, or, or my locale, or something

830
00:46:02,227 --> 00:46:06,117
like that is a way to You know, a new to maybe, maybe that's a new DVM right there.

831
00:46:06,127 --> 00:46:07,437
If we just figured it out, we need,

832
00:46:07,516 --> 00:46:11,046
Well, and okay, how do users find information on DVMs?

833
00:46:11,056 --> 00:46:13,946
Because I'd heard of this, but I don't know where to

834
00:46:14,127 --> 00:46:18,237
yeah, well, if you're at, this gets back to the, we're early

835
00:46:18,237 --> 00:46:19,567
and Nostr is very technical.

836
00:46:19,737 --> 00:46:24,007
They're onboarding on Nostr as a whole generally sucks.

837
00:46:24,107 --> 00:46:26,507
It does because it's technical.

838
00:46:26,507 --> 00:46:30,567
We need more explanations or we need things to be simpler.

839
00:46:31,147 --> 00:46:35,297
And because these things, neither of these exist, there's probably a lot of people

840
00:46:35,297 --> 00:46:38,977
that use maybe Amethyst or maybe use.

841
00:46:39,437 --> 00:46:43,197
Nostrudel or Coracle that have no clue what these things are.

842
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:48,980
today, Primal announced their DVM store.

843
00:46:49,260 --> 00:46:52,450
Their, uh, algorithm marketplace, essentially.

844
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,760
And they do it very, very well.

845
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,690
It's gonna be, it looks like it's gonna be kind of front

846
00:46:57,690 --> 00:46:59,380
and center for you to choose.

847
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,740
And you can configure your feed with just a toggle radio button.

848
00:47:03,930 --> 00:47:06,410
It looks like it's designed really, really nice.

849
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,970
And maybe we'll see some of this user experience slip over to other clients,

850
00:47:10,990 --> 00:47:14,840
because right now you can get to them on several other clients, but they're,

851
00:47:15,590 --> 00:47:19,830
they need a little bit more work, I think, to be, uh, more user friendly.

852
00:47:20,580 --> 00:47:25,430
Sure, and well, okay, and so, you find this stuff even by asking

853
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:26,810
where to find this stuff on Nostr?

854
00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:28,930
Like, honestly, yeah, yeah, I guess so, I guess

855
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,860
mean, I can give you a website, I don't know the name of it, but it, it's

856
00:47:32,450 --> 00:47:34,670
something like datavendingmachines.

857
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:38,110
com or, or something along those lines, or nostrdvms.

858
00:47:38,110 --> 00:47:41,590
com, I don't remember the exact domain name, but it lists them all and explains

859
00:47:41,590 --> 00:47:42,620
what they are and how they work.

860
00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:43,040
It does it.

861
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:48,020
A little bit better, but there's, again, you're probably, uh, we need

862
00:47:48,020 --> 00:47:52,150
it telling a user to go to another website to read all about it.

863
00:47:52,150 --> 00:47:54,620
It's probably not the greatest, uh, user experience.

864
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:56,940
You should, we should have some of that in app, I think, to

865
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:58,400
have a better user experience.

866
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,340
And how difficult is it to make your own?

867
00:48:02,770 --> 00:48:06,450
Does it actually require deep understanding of Nostr itself

868
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:11,330
Um, I, well, to, to make your own DVM or to, or to use one.

869
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,140
even, for example, just configure it or something

870
00:48:16,140 --> 00:48:16,460
Yes.

871
00:48:16,610 --> 00:48:17,000
So.

872
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,370
To make your own DVM, you probably need to be a Nostr developer.

873
00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:25,010
You need to know how to do some development programming.

874
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:27,980
But if you want to utilize one, it's just a few clicks of a button.

875
00:48:28,750 --> 00:48:33,800
The most configurable one that exists today, Coracle.

876
00:48:33,820 --> 00:48:38,500
You can build these custom feeds with DVMs, with hashtags, with lists of people,

877
00:48:38,740 --> 00:48:43,230
with all sorts of stuff, and you can build a very, very user customized, uh, feed,

878
00:48:43,540 --> 00:48:48,050
and I believe Damus NoteDeck is going to have something similar like that, too,

879
00:48:48,060 --> 00:48:51,140
where in the future, you know, they'll have these algorithm stores and all these

880
00:48:51,140 --> 00:48:55,170
different types of feeds that you're going to be able to very easily point

881
00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:59,900
and click and build these feeds, but to build your own feed, Custom DVM, yeah, you

882
00:48:59,900 --> 00:49:01,410
should probably be a developer for that.

883
00:49:01,580 --> 00:49:04,650
Otherwise, you'll just use somebody else's DVM that they built.

884
00:49:05,070 --> 00:49:08,520
Okay, and then, so, I guess the other side of this you're saying

885
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,120
is the engagement side of it.

886
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,980
That's the other way to so called build your own feed?

887
00:49:14,490 --> 00:49:18,050
right, like if, and this kind of mimics the real world, right, if we're

888
00:49:18,050 --> 00:49:22,820
standing outside in the conference hall and and you and Knut are talking and I

889
00:49:22,820 --> 00:49:26,130
want to interject in the conversation, I'm not gonna just stand there off

890
00:49:26,130 --> 00:49:29,470
to the side and hope that you look at me and say, hey, do you want to talk?

891
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,470
I gotta go over and stand there and I gotta join the conversation.

892
00:49:32,785 --> 00:49:35,485
And that's really what you need to do on, on Nostr.

893
00:49:35,645 --> 00:49:39,905
If it, you know, if somebody is commu posting, commenting, replying, whatever,

894
00:49:40,135 --> 00:49:42,985
if you want to join the conversation, you need to join the conversation.

895
00:49:42,985 --> 00:49:44,245
You need to comment and talk too.

896
00:49:44,545 --> 00:49:47,645
And then those people are going to be like, Oh, hey, look, Derek's replying.

897
00:49:47,645 --> 00:49:50,515
I don't know who he is, but now he's joined the conversation.

898
00:49:50,515 --> 00:49:51,485
I liked his reply.

899
00:49:51,485 --> 00:49:53,125
Maybe I want to follow him.

900
00:49:53,155 --> 00:49:55,435
And it just mimics real world in that.

901
00:49:55,715 --> 00:49:56,665
Yeah, in that case,

902
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,790
and as I understand it, the primal algorithm is largely reply based, like,

903
00:50:00,790 --> 00:50:06,110
uh, the, uh, the trending is, is, uh, notes that get a lot of, uh, replies,

904
00:50:06,140 --> 00:50:09,330
and, uh, that, that's, that's important for that algorithm, and that's, this is

905
00:50:09,330 --> 00:50:12,480
actually one of these things I would like to personally be able to, to, to toggle,

906
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,480
is, is, I don't necessarily look for the things that have the most interest.

907
00:50:17,925 --> 00:50:20,865
Uh, replies, maybe I want it, maybe I want, because that's engagement,

908
00:50:20,915 --> 00:50:24,755
maybe I want the things that, that have the most likes, or, uh, the

909
00:50:24,755 --> 00:50:27,555
most zaps, that one, that one's easy, I like that, that one's usually,

910
00:50:27,625 --> 00:50:29,315
uh, pretty available and all this,

911
00:50:29,385 --> 00:50:33,985
yeah, the mentioning the Primal algorithm for their trending is an interesting

912
00:50:33,985 --> 00:50:39,145
topic because over the past year, like when they first announced trending I

913
00:50:39,145 --> 00:50:43,795
think their signal indicator might have been zaps and people were doing like fake

914
00:50:43,795 --> 00:50:48,985
zaps and just to show that this could be gamed and then Primal went back and

915
00:50:48,985 --> 00:50:53,140
they You know, retooled a little bit and then it was people were doing like

916
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:58,260
spamming like thousands and thousands of reactions and then hitting trending again.

917
00:50:58,370 --> 00:50:59,460
It's an open protocol.

918
00:50:59,460 --> 00:51:00,710
Anybody's going to do anything.

919
00:51:01,270 --> 00:51:04,150
And then, you know, Primal went back again and retooled and made their

920
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:10,210
algorithm better and, and, uh, then they, once they, uh, hit a working model

921
00:51:10,210 --> 00:51:14,060
that couldn't be gamed as easily, then they published it very transparent.

922
00:51:14,060 --> 00:51:15,430
This is how our algorithm works.

923
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:18,040
You can go review it all on GitHub, yada, yada, yada.

924
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,070
And, you know, that's kind of where we're at today.

925
00:51:20,070 --> 00:51:26,387
I, I, I think that, uh, having an algorithm or having a DVM or

926
00:51:26,387 --> 00:51:29,437
something that, You could customize, Hey, I want to see most likes

927
00:51:29,437 --> 00:51:30,977
or most zaps or most replies.

928
00:51:31,157 --> 00:51:32,157
I think that's cool with it.

929
00:51:32,167 --> 00:51:35,667
Cause maybe your signal indicator is different than, than mine.

930
00:51:35,687 --> 00:51:40,727
And you know, you'll have the one from, uh, the, the client, like however their

931
00:51:40,907 --> 00:51:44,417
algorithm is configured, but maybe you can go in and configure your algorithm

932
00:51:44,417 --> 00:51:48,247
just a little bit differently because you, you know, you like comments, but,

933
00:51:48,277 --> 00:51:51,697
but you want to see the, those, those big zaps and there actually is a DVM for

934
00:51:51,697 --> 00:51:53,427
like top zaps or something like that.

935
00:51:54,491 --> 00:51:57,461
It sounds like there's something for everyone here, it's just a

936
00:51:57,461 --> 00:52:00,661
matter of figuring out how to use it and finding out what's available.

937
00:52:00,742 --> 00:52:01,762
maybe not everyone.

938
00:52:01,762 --> 00:52:04,262
It's sort of like the saying with Bitcoin.

939
00:52:04,302 --> 00:52:07,202
Bitcoin is for everyone and people pointing out that no, it's not.

940
00:52:07,212 --> 00:52:08,092
It's for anyone.

941
00:52:08,412 --> 00:52:10,622
Yeah, and that's a better description.

942
00:52:10,886 --> 00:52:13,886
Well, and actually this is another philosophical question here, right,

943
00:52:13,886 --> 00:52:17,136
because still we're going to get people that come into this who aren't

944
00:52:17,146 --> 00:52:21,996
going to be willing to, or willing is maybe the wrong word, but who aren't

945
00:52:21,996 --> 00:52:23,896
going to want to do any customization.

946
00:52:23,906 --> 00:52:26,576
They just want to come in and have it work and be like their Twitter.

947
00:52:26,966 --> 00:52:30,636
And then what happens is that the default algorithm of the

948
00:52:30,636 --> 00:52:33,496
largest app turns into the new

949
00:52:33,542 --> 00:52:34,562
into like the default.

950
00:52:34,642 --> 00:52:35,431
yeah, yeah,

951
00:52:35,616 --> 00:52:38,966
which also turns into the things that people see and all of this.

952
00:52:38,966 --> 00:52:41,686
And so do you see any issues with that?

953
00:52:42,095 --> 00:52:49,955
well, right now, as far as I know, there are no clients that the default

954
00:52:49,965 --> 00:52:52,025
feed that you get is an algorithm.

955
00:52:52,785 --> 00:52:57,975
I think you have to go in and configure that and change

956
00:52:57,975 --> 00:52:59,545
that and choose to do that.

957
00:52:59,765 --> 00:53:01,255
As long as that stays the case.

958
00:53:01,705 --> 00:53:05,775
You know, the chronological, you know, some, some people might say chronological

959
00:53:05,775 --> 00:53:09,135
order is its own algorithm, but as long as the, you know, like that

960
00:53:09,605 --> 00:53:14,075
chronological algorithm is, is the default one, I really don't see that's

961
00:53:14,305 --> 00:53:19,603
that big of a deal, but even if it is, uh, we have user choice, you're right.

962
00:53:19,603 --> 00:53:24,503
If the most popular client would automatically say, Hey, We're gonna

963
00:53:24,503 --> 00:53:26,143
switch to using this algorithm.

964
00:53:27,063 --> 00:53:31,433
Whenever Facebook makes a feed change, or Twitter would make a feed

965
00:53:31,433 --> 00:53:36,013
change, you know people are up in arms and they yell and they complain,

966
00:53:36,443 --> 00:53:37,923
but you can't do anything about it.

967
00:53:38,303 --> 00:53:39,433
Well, Nostr's different.

968
00:53:39,953 --> 00:53:43,993
You, you literally can, you can say, well, I'm going to use a new client.

969
00:53:44,463 --> 00:53:50,113
So I'm curious what would happen if, if, uh, you know, the, the most popular

970
00:53:50,113 --> 00:53:53,873
client makes a major change like this, they change the algorithm, the default

971
00:53:53,883 --> 00:53:58,467
algorithm, would everybody really do what they say they want to do on Facebook?

972
00:53:58,467 --> 00:54:01,637
Like I'm never using Facebook again because you changed my feed.

973
00:54:01,877 --> 00:54:03,527
Well, they, they can't go anywhere else.

974
00:54:03,537 --> 00:54:05,537
So they stick to Facebook, but now you could.

975
00:54:05,837 --> 00:54:07,867
So would people actually move to another app?

976
00:54:08,382 --> 00:54:11,462
Funny that you should say that, because that's one of the things

977
00:54:11,462 --> 00:54:14,082
that made me leave Facebook, right?

978
00:54:14,132 --> 00:54:17,752
Because they actually did some social experiment by pissing

979
00:54:17,782 --> 00:54:18,912
people off or something.

980
00:54:19,367 --> 00:54:20,947
but now you would have a choice, right?

981
00:54:20,947 --> 00:54:23,037
Like, so that, that, that opens up a whole new

982
00:54:23,102 --> 00:54:25,502
Yeah, yeah, and I could take my posts with me.

983
00:54:25,707 --> 00:54:28,107
You take your content, your social graph with you.

984
00:54:28,107 --> 00:54:28,547
Yeah.

985
00:54:28,937 --> 00:54:32,917
So, so maybe, so maybe we won't see that, or maybe once someone does it, they shoot

986
00:54:32,917 --> 00:54:35,557
some self in the foot and they're like, Oh, we don't, maybe we shouldn't do this.

987
00:54:35,557 --> 00:54:36,757
We should give users a choice.

988
00:54:37,788 --> 00:54:42,038
There's another thing about the social graph and the, the, the

989
00:54:42,078 --> 00:54:48,688
permanency of it, like how permanent it is, uh, because everyone should

990
00:54:48,688 --> 00:54:51,878
know that anything you do on the internet is as permanent as a tattoo.

991
00:54:51,878 --> 00:54:57,838
And that's why you can't like delete posts from Nostr, like the whole deleting,

992
00:54:57,978 --> 00:55:00,548
deleting of data is, is a, is a mirage.

993
00:55:00,548 --> 00:55:01,638
It's not real.

994
00:55:01,858 --> 00:55:05,988
I mean, you can, well, you can delete, but not every relay is

995
00:55:05,988 --> 00:55:07,148
going to honor that request.

996
00:55:07,238 --> 00:55:08,818
So it's a delete request.

997
00:55:08,968 --> 00:55:09,368
Yeah.

998
00:55:10,198 --> 00:55:17,128
but what I'm coming to here is that, um, is that going to scare people that

999
00:55:17,478 --> 00:55:22,398
their stupid post from when they were 15 years old will be there forever?

1000
00:55:22,738 --> 00:55:31,108
Well, um, what I'd be curious about is, on legacy social platforms, when

1001
00:55:31,108 --> 00:55:35,843
you hit delete, Is it actually deleted from a database or is it just flagged

1002
00:55:35,843 --> 00:55:37,573
as deleted and don't show again?

1003
00:55:37,868 --> 00:55:39,058
probably the latter.

1004
00:55:39,338 --> 00:55:39,688
Yeah.

1005
00:55:39,853 --> 00:55:44,423
Yeah, so probably, you know, you can screenshot stuff.

1006
00:55:44,423 --> 00:55:47,303
Like if you post something on the internet, it's literally

1007
00:55:47,303 --> 00:55:48,503
never going to go away.

1008
00:55:48,503 --> 00:55:48,913
So

1009
00:55:49,620 --> 00:55:50,900
People just need to learn this.

1010
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,870
So maybe Nostr is the way that they learn that, because it's more honest.

1011
00:55:55,125 --> 00:55:56,165
it is, it is more honest.

1012
00:55:56,165 --> 00:55:59,705
Like I can make a request for a deletion from every relay

1013
00:55:59,715 --> 00:56:01,605
that my content exists on.

1014
00:56:01,750 --> 00:56:02,090
Yeah.

1015
00:56:03,155 --> 00:56:07,355
If I, you know, let's say there's a thousand relays and 999 of them.

1016
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:12,670
Yeah, 999 of them delete the content, but one of them says, yeah, I'm going to

1017
00:56:12,670 --> 00:56:14,400
archive everything, I'm not deleting it.

1018
00:56:14,740 --> 00:56:17,880
Well, then it still exists on the internet, like it just, so that's

1019
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:18,960
why we say there's no delete.

1020
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,870
Yeah, maybe you're right, maybe it is the most honest that you can request it

1021
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:26,580
to be deleted, but there's no guarantee that the request is going to be honored.

1022
00:56:27,414 --> 00:56:27,814
Good.

1023
00:56:28,014 --> 00:56:28,354
Yeah.

1024
00:56:28,779 --> 00:56:29,029
Yeah.

1025
00:56:29,029 --> 00:56:30,009
I mean, I mean, okay.

1026
00:56:30,009 --> 00:56:35,269
So, so the, the principles of Nostr seem to be getting pretty clear here

1027
00:56:35,289 --> 00:56:38,859
that, that it's, it's all about this portability, this decentralization,

1028
00:56:38,869 --> 00:56:42,279
this new way of doing things, and yes, there is going to be some, some.

1029
00:56:42,664 --> 00:56:47,624
Switchover, that people have to do to, to, um, really get the most out of it.

1030
00:56:48,334 --> 00:56:53,194
But, that said, there's so much cool stuff going on, that once you make that switch,

1031
00:56:53,214 --> 00:56:55,364
that there's this whole new world of it.

1032
00:56:55,364 --> 00:56:58,704
And, for me personally, the biggest thing that's prevented me from going

1033
00:56:58,824 --> 00:57:03,209
all in is, I guess I just, I haven't got quite the right The right thing,

1034
00:57:03,209 --> 00:57:05,869
the right feed, the engagement.

1035
00:57:06,099 --> 00:57:11,499
I mean, I think timezone right now plays a big role here, because

1036
00:57:11,509 --> 00:57:13,959
when is everyone actually active?

1037
00:57:13,979 --> 00:57:15,709
How do you get involved in conversations?

1038
00:57:16,809 --> 00:57:18,019
For Europe, it's a bit tough.

1039
00:57:18,019 --> 00:57:23,149
You almost have to post on Nostr in the European evening to get any

1040
00:57:23,459 --> 00:57:28,309
engagement with North American users, which at the moment are the majority.

1041
00:57:28,339 --> 00:57:29,779
At least in the English speaking world.

1042
00:57:31,404 --> 00:57:36,924
That, I don't know, it'd be nice if it didn't depend so much on the time of day.

1043
00:57:37,034 --> 00:57:41,074
that goes back to, you know, user content being brought forward.

1044
00:57:41,094 --> 00:57:44,104
That doesn't really happen unless you specifically seek.

1045
00:57:44,369 --> 00:57:45,149
That on Nostr.

1046
00:57:45,189 --> 00:57:49,839
So a little hack about being your own algorithm that I've used over the

1047
00:57:49,839 --> 00:57:54,269
past, you know, year and a half or so is, you know, people used to say

1048
00:57:54,269 --> 00:58:00,459
it was bad form to, to retweet your own tweets, but you need to do that.

1049
00:58:00,459 --> 00:58:02,639
You need to boost your own content on Nostr.

1050
00:58:02,779 --> 00:58:04,954
You need to, I do it specifically for different time zones.

1051
00:58:04,954 --> 00:58:08,559
Like you said, you know, maybe I posted something really good.

1052
00:58:08,984 --> 00:58:12,324
In 8 o'clock in the morning and then six hours later, I'm like, you know what?

1053
00:58:12,324 --> 00:58:14,914
There's more people up and out and about in the world right now.

1054
00:58:15,124 --> 00:58:17,314
I'm going to boost that because I thought that was really good.

1055
00:58:17,494 --> 00:58:21,224
I don't do it for every single one of my notes because that's probably overkill.

1056
00:58:21,244 --> 00:58:24,974
But maybe once or twice a day, if I thought I did something, I

1057
00:58:24,994 --> 00:58:27,374
think, man, that needs more views.

1058
00:58:27,824 --> 00:58:31,304
You know, and in time zones are a bitch and you know, people may not

1059
00:58:31,304 --> 00:58:34,544
have been active at the time, or maybe they were active and there was

1060
00:58:34,544 --> 00:58:35,904
a whole bunch of other people active.

1061
00:58:35,904 --> 00:58:38,884
So this gets back to being your own algorithm.

1062
00:58:38,904 --> 00:58:40,654
So I would say try that.

1063
00:58:41,399 --> 00:58:43,309
People aren't going to hate on you for it.

1064
00:58:43,439 --> 00:58:46,439
You know, I've been saying now that I've been doing this for a while and I

1065
00:58:46,439 --> 00:58:47,869
see a lot of other people doing it too.

1066
00:58:47,869 --> 00:58:48,629
It's not just me.

1067
00:58:48,629 --> 00:58:52,099
Like, people understand that you need to be your own algorithm and

1068
00:58:52,099 --> 00:58:53,609
bring your own content forward.

1069
00:58:56,179 --> 00:59:02,859
know how Nostr reminds me of that I shouldn't be, that I should be more

1070
00:59:02,859 --> 00:59:07,149
careful on the internet because like sometimes I accidentally like posts that

1071
00:59:07,149 --> 00:59:11,529
I want to, I want to declick the button and make the like go away, but it doesn't.

1072
00:59:12,009 --> 00:59:14,899
But well, that, that, that, so that depends on the client.

1073
00:59:15,339 --> 00:59:17,949
So what that would do is that would send a delete request

1074
00:59:18,114 --> 00:59:19,874
yeah, exactly what we talked about before.

1075
00:59:20,034 --> 00:59:24,844
Yeah, to all like amethyst supports on, you know, unliking, but it sends

1076
00:59:24,844 --> 00:59:28,364
a delete request to all the relays saying, Hey, delete that, that reaction.

1077
00:59:28,374 --> 00:59:28,464
Yeah.

1078
00:59:28,674 --> 00:59:29,024
Yeah.

1079
00:59:29,084 --> 00:59:29,804
that's the thing.

1080
00:59:29,804 --> 00:59:33,734
It's, it reminds me of what's actually going on under the hood while, while the

1081
00:59:33,734 --> 00:59:38,024
other social media platforms just are optimized for make it simple for the user.

1082
00:59:38,604 --> 00:59:38,934
Yeah.

1083
00:59:38,944 --> 00:59:40,234
So no, it's good.

1084
00:59:40,704 --> 00:59:45,714
Um, to take this in a slightly different direction and, um, a final

1085
00:59:45,714 --> 00:59:51,954
point here, like, um, we've found out why you're so bullish on Nostr.

1086
00:59:53,714 --> 00:59:55,034
Why are you bullish on Bitcoin?

1087
00:59:55,044 --> 00:59:58,024
Like what's, what's your, what are you most excited for in

1088
00:59:58,024 --> 00:59:59,914
the Bitcoin space right now?

1089
01:00:00,264 --> 01:00:06,264
The most exciting thing about Bitcoin for me is to see these developing

1090
01:00:06,274 --> 01:00:10,874
communities around the world, like using Bitcoin because it's

1091
01:00:10,884 --> 01:00:12,844
better than their corrupt money.

1092
01:00:12,844 --> 01:00:14,404
They're, they're inflated money.

1093
01:00:14,814 --> 01:00:19,394
And seeing them being able to save for the very first time and being

1094
01:00:19,394 --> 01:00:23,064
able to essentially like be their own bank, you know, banking the unbanked

1095
01:00:23,064 --> 01:00:26,374
and just being better money for them.

1096
01:00:26,374 --> 01:00:27,664
I think that is so cool.

1097
01:00:27,664 --> 01:00:31,879
Like I absolutely love watching all these videos of Communities around the

1098
01:00:31,879 --> 01:00:36,979
world bettering themselves and educating their youth or children on money and

1099
01:00:36,979 --> 01:00:41,449
finances and seeing the kids being able to have better lives because of this.

1100
01:00:41,459 --> 01:00:42,879
Like that's the use case.

1101
01:00:42,879 --> 01:00:43,369
It's cool.

1102
01:00:43,369 --> 01:00:44,039
I mean, sure.

1103
01:00:44,229 --> 01:00:45,879
You know, wealth preservation is cool.

1104
01:00:46,199 --> 01:00:48,929
I understand, you know, sound money is great.

1105
01:00:49,369 --> 01:00:50,645
I understand why.

1106
01:00:51,154 --> 01:00:54,324
Everything is broken, uh, after reading, like, Safedine's,

1107
01:00:54,374 --> 01:00:56,124
uh, uh, the fiat standard.

1108
01:00:56,234 --> 01:01:00,134
I, you knew about all these things in, in, in the real world and, and reading,

1109
01:01:00,134 --> 01:01:04,464
you know, uh, about how, thinking about Bitcoin is another element in,

1110
01:01:04,494 --> 01:01:10,034
in, uh, you know, like, there's a lot of really interesting use cases about

1111
01:01:10,054 --> 01:01:13,629
Bitcoin and, and really, you know, Interesting ways to think about it.

1112
01:01:13,659 --> 01:01:18,509
But my favorite is, is, is just communities having these circular

1113
01:01:18,509 --> 01:01:20,189
economies and bettering themselves.

1114
01:01:20,577 --> 01:01:21,017
Great.

1115
01:01:21,512 --> 01:01:24,072
Yeah, fantastic answer and very much aligned with us.

1116
01:01:24,102 --> 01:01:29,372
And, and, uh, since, since we've been, uh, poking at different bits of Nostr

1117
01:01:29,372 --> 01:01:32,752
this, this whole time, I also was hoping to end on a, on a optimistic

1118
01:01:32,782 --> 01:01:34,672
note on the Nostr side as, as well.

1119
01:01:35,242 --> 01:01:38,782
So what are you most excited about that's coming up right now?

1120
01:01:38,782 --> 01:01:40,902
What do you think is going to make the biggest impact in

1121
01:01:40,912 --> 01:01:42,732
the, in what you're aware of?

1122
01:01:43,102 --> 01:01:45,482
There's so many really cool projects out there.

1123
01:01:45,482 --> 01:01:45,912
Oh man.

1124
01:01:45,912 --> 01:01:49,382
There's, there's, there's probably ones being demonstrated right now that I've

1125
01:01:49,392 --> 01:01:51,692
never even, you know, wasn't aware of.

1126
01:01:51,722 --> 01:01:58,822
Um, I, I really like the, the ability to have, uh, so the,

1127
01:02:00,572 --> 01:02:02,032
There's a Nostr app called zap.

1128
01:02:02,272 --> 01:02:02,752
store.

1129
01:02:03,142 --> 01:02:12,672
It is a Google Play or App Store, uh, replacement, FOSS, built on Nostr.

1130
01:02:13,332 --> 01:02:16,949
It allows us to see, applications that are reviewed and

1131
01:02:16,949 --> 01:02:18,709
installed by our web of trust.

1132
01:02:19,289 --> 01:02:25,804
So An application that's really popular and has good reviews by people, you

1133
01:02:25,804 --> 01:02:28,704
know, people that are in your web of trust versus who knows who they

1134
01:02:28,704 --> 01:02:31,914
are, if they're bots or whatever on, you know, these other app stores.

1135
01:02:32,074 --> 01:02:34,134
I think that that's a very neat use case.

1136
01:02:34,414 --> 01:02:38,884
You know, we, we see problems in the Bitcoin ecosystem where apps get

1137
01:02:38,884 --> 01:02:44,809
removed from app stores all the time, and And it just seems that everything

1138
01:02:44,809 --> 01:02:47,719
is getting choked in this regard.

1139
01:02:47,749 --> 01:02:50,749
So I think that's a neat use case, especially what's been

1140
01:02:50,749 --> 01:02:52,259
going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

1141
01:02:52,449 --> 01:02:56,339
I'm really excited to see that continue to grow and get fleshed out.

1142
01:02:57,112 --> 01:02:57,712
I think just.

1143
01:02:58,737 --> 01:03:01,777
Everything being able to be more interoperable on Nostr.

1144
01:03:01,777 --> 01:03:05,327
I'm really bullish for the next big thing to be built on Nostr and

1145
01:03:05,327 --> 01:03:08,227
then all these other clients to be like, wow, I want to implement it.

1146
01:03:08,237 --> 01:03:09,377
And then they all implement it.

1147
01:03:09,377 --> 01:03:13,027
And that feature then is used everywhere, but there's just so much stuff.

1148
01:03:13,027 --> 01:03:14,567
It's hard to be bullish on one thing.

1149
01:03:14,577 --> 01:03:20,047
Like, you know, Pablo's, uh, Nutsack, uh, Cashew wallet is really cool.

1150
01:03:20,537 --> 01:03:20,747
Yeah.

1151
01:03:20,747 --> 01:03:21,817
That's such a fantastic

1152
01:03:21,982 --> 01:03:22,322
What a

1153
01:03:22,547 --> 01:03:22,797
Yeah.

1154
01:03:22,797 --> 01:03:23,027
Yeah.

1155
01:03:23,027 --> 01:03:23,387
Yeah.

1156
01:03:23,387 --> 01:03:28,727
It takes balls to, to, to decide the kind of name.

1157
01:03:29,097 --> 01:03:29,277
Yeah.

1158
01:03:29,277 --> 01:03:29,627
Yeah.

1159
01:03:29,747 --> 01:03:30,147
does.

1160
01:03:31,257 --> 01:03:31,587
All right.

1161
01:03:31,637 --> 01:03:35,121
So other than Nostr, where can people find you on the internet

1162
01:03:35,191 --> 01:03:35,801
and where do you want to

1163
01:03:35,821 --> 01:03:36,301
know what?

1164
01:03:36,341 --> 01:03:40,331
I got tired of Odell yelling about Nostr only and me being a huge

1165
01:03:40,331 --> 01:03:42,341
Nostr bull, not being Nostr only.

1166
01:03:42,341 --> 01:03:45,021
So a couple of months ago I deleted everything.

1167
01:03:45,071 --> 01:03:45,751
It's all gone.

1168
01:03:45,751 --> 01:03:46,511
I have no Twitter.

1169
01:03:46,511 --> 01:03:47,271
I have no Facebook.

1170
01:03:47,271 --> 01:03:48,701
I have no Instagram, no LinkedIn.

1171
01:03:48,731 --> 01:03:49,621
I'm Nostr only.

1172
01:03:49,711 --> 01:03:50,291
All right.

1173
01:03:50,431 --> 01:03:53,811
you want to find me, You need to go to Nostr because I don't

1174
01:03:53,811 --> 01:03:55,141
exist anywhere else anymore.

1175
01:03:56,216 --> 01:04:00,936
any specific things that you're working on that you'd like to tell us

1176
01:04:01,041 --> 01:04:03,901
Uh, you know, yeah, sure.

1177
01:04:03,991 --> 01:04:04,041
Yeah.

1178
01:04:04,041 --> 01:04:10,701
So the most exciting thing that I've personally done recently is I organized a

1179
01:04:10,701 --> 01:04:18,321
community led Nostr booth at BTC Prague, where I basically said to the community,

1180
01:04:18,321 --> 01:04:23,201
Hey, Nostr needs to have a big presence so we can, or we can purple pill Prague.

1181
01:04:24,371 --> 01:04:25,181
Let's have a booth.

1182
01:04:25,181 --> 01:04:28,201
I want developers to be able to come to the booth, talk to their

1183
01:04:28,201 --> 01:04:30,081
users, talk about their products.

1184
01:04:30,291 --> 01:04:31,491
Getting a booth is expensive.

1185
01:04:31,751 --> 01:04:35,081
And a lot of these like indie, smaller developers, they can't afford that.

1186
01:04:35,251 --> 01:04:37,811
So what if they just donate a little bit of Bitcoin?

1187
01:04:38,751 --> 01:04:40,351
We pooled those funds together.

1188
01:04:40,381 --> 01:04:45,356
We had maybe a couple large, uh, larger, uh, Developers, sponsors, you know,

1189
01:04:45,356 --> 01:04:46,726
and we pull all these funds together.

1190
01:04:46,726 --> 01:04:47,886
We have this Nostr booth.

1191
01:04:48,456 --> 01:04:49,896
Um, it was great.

1192
01:04:49,906 --> 01:04:52,306
I think it was one of the most well received booths.

1193
01:04:52,456 --> 01:04:55,626
I'm a little biased there, but it was busy for three days straight.

1194
01:04:55,836 --> 01:04:57,556
We had tons of people there all the time.

1195
01:04:57,956 --> 01:05:00,266
Uh, everybody that I talked to absolutely loved it.

1196
01:05:00,266 --> 01:05:01,236
It was great to see.

1197
01:05:01,646 --> 01:05:04,756
You know, the whole Nostr community come together for this, essentially

1198
01:05:04,756 --> 01:05:10,186
an educational slash marketing effort really to help grow Nostr and teach

1199
01:05:10,246 --> 01:05:11,666
and educate people about Nostr.

1200
01:05:12,146 --> 01:05:13,156
I'm excited to do it again.

1201
01:05:13,216 --> 01:05:17,266
Like I don't know when and where, but I want to do it again.

1202
01:05:17,266 --> 01:05:20,996
I think it was great and I would love to have the same initiative

1203
01:05:21,216 --> 01:05:22,646
at some point in the near future.

1204
01:05:23,092 --> 01:05:23,562
You know what?

1205
01:05:23,622 --> 01:05:24,912
That is awesome.

1206
01:05:25,362 --> 01:05:27,502
Derek, thanks a lot for coming on.

1207
01:05:27,672 --> 01:05:28,192
for having me.

1208
01:05:28,502 --> 01:05:33,352
We could probably continue to try and pick your encyclopedic brain on the

1209
01:05:33,352 --> 01:05:34,962
Nostr stuff, but we'll give you a break.

1210
01:05:34,962 --> 01:05:36,012
We know you've got another panel

1211
01:05:36,047 --> 01:05:37,797
So enjoy the rest of the conference.

1212
01:05:38,187 --> 01:05:39,627
Thanks for coming on, Derek.

1213
01:05:40,942 --> 01:05:41,612
Thanks again, Derek.

1214
01:05:41,612 --> 01:05:43,042
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1215
01:05:43,072 --> 01:05:44,022
Thanks for listening.

1216
01:05:45,222 --> 01:05:45,652
All right.

1217
01:05:46,122 --> 01:05:47,012
Thank you guys.

1218
01:05:47,032 --> 01:05:47,622
That was fun.

1219
01:05:47,622 --> 01:05:48,532
I appreciate it.