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All right, Martti, thank you for joining us.

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Welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, Marty is a, for those of you that don't know, Marty

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is a true legend in the space.

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Uh, you had contact with Satoshi himself back in the day, did you?

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Did you not?

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Yeah.

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On the BitcoinTalk forums, I guess.

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Yeah.

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Actually email before that.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So there's, uh, and you re quite recently, like a couple of months back, released,

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uh, a couple of, uh, email, um, back and forths that hadn't been released before.

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Yes.

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Uh, so what's the story that, why did you do that?

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Yeah.

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So I was asked to be a witness in the Craig Wright trial, Wright

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versus Copa trial in the UK.

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Mm-Hmm,

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So I shared my emails for that one.

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I just didn't feel, I had been asked to share them before,

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but I didn't feel comfortable.

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Like sharing private correspondence, but this seemed like a worthy cause.

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Okay.

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And, and what was the, the, what was like the TLDR on the

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information that came out there?

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That

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Maybe, I'm not sure if I'm the best person to answer that because

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it's more interesting what other people get out of it because it's

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been on my mind all the time.

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So maybe others have made better like rehashes

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of that all.

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maybe we should go all the way back to the, the beginning.

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how did the,

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how did the contact start and, and maybe just a little bit

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about your, your background.

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Yeah, so in 2009, I was a computer science student at

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Helsinki University of Technology.

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Um, but I, I didn't waste time studying too much.

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Um, so I had a lot of free time.

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To think about the world and everything, um, I'm quite passionate about liberty,

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like many of us Bitcoiners, but I wasn't inspired by politics at all,

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instead I was inspired by making a difference through technology.

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without asking the boomers for permission, most of people are not

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libertarians and we will not be able to convince them to vote libertarian.

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So, I was thinking what would be the most impactful thing you could change,

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and I figured it would be money, because everything runs on money.

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And if you give government and central banks control over our money, they

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have too much control over our lives.

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So, I went looking for alternatives.

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There had been alternative monies like e gold and pekunix and something like that.

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Liberty dollar was maybe a few years later, I'm not sure.

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But they were all centralized in some way.

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But then I was googling around for something like peer to peer

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currency, and Bitcoin came up.

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It had just been released.

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It was April 2009 when I found it, and it had been released just earlier.

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I took some time to read the white paper and think about it,

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and I wrote about it on Twitter.

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Some forums, antistate.

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com and free domain radio forums asking what they think.

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Satoshi later found those and joined the threads.

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Um, then I sent email to Satoshi.

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That's how it started.

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Okay, so, yeah, so what's the first email you sent to Satoshi?

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What was in that and what's the reply you got?

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Uh, I was mentioning, I started those, those threads on those forums

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and I was saying, um, I want to help Bitcoin if there's something I can do.

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And, uh, he, he, uh, asked me to do some writing.

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He said like, there's not much that's easy to do on the coding side.

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I was a junior developer at the time.

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So I helped him first writing and I started writing an FAQ.

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He sent me some, some, uh, replies he had, sent to some

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people to help me with the FAQ.

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It's quite interesting to read.

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and did you ever have any, uh, of these other things before Bitcoin?

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Like, did you ever own any Liberty dollars or e cash or Egold

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or whatever they were called.

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Mmm.

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I remember I, I, was about to buy.

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Pecunix at some point.

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I'm not sure if it was before or after Bitcoin, but the

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whole process was so shady.

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You were supposed to wire money to Hong Kong and something like that.

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So I just canceled it.

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All right.

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And, and then, after the FAQ phase, like, how did you continue working on Bitcoin?

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Like what,

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Yeah.

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So he also gave me access to bitcoin.

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sourceforge.

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net.

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And eventually, I don't recall the exact, uh, order of.

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Events, but eventually I also was managing bitcoin.

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org and the site over there.

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We made experiments with different forum software, very interesting,

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technical, like configuration discussions you can read in the emails.

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And we settled on simple machines, forum software.

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And Satoshi was even himself doing some, some PHP configurations

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like custom captcha, so spam bots would not find their way there.

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what's your, what's your like feeling towards Satoshi?

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Like what was he like in your mind?

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Like, what, what is this person?

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Like, do you have a vision in your

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Yeah.

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Well, first I thought he's Japanese because of the name and on some

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social profile, he mentions he's a man from Japan, but I had my doubts

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because his English was so perfect

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and that's not usually the case, maybe.

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Well, when Dorian Nakamoto surfaced or was doxxed, I was like, this is

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how I imagined Satoshi to look like.

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I'm not sure if that's actually, if I actually did, or if

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it's like after the fact.

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No, no, maybe I think of something like that.

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All right.

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And do you think it's a single person or maybe a group of people?

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that's the impression you get if you read our correspondence.

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That it's a single person.

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Yeah, I think, uh, many other, many others have also, um, come to the

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conclusion from the correspondence.

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All right.

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But yeah, that's what I always thought.

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Also, the theory is that Satoshi's CIA or whatever, I think, are pretty

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much debunked by our correspondents.

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Unless they're like playing 4D chess.

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Yeah.

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Do you have a, like a, a candidate you can disclose or would you rather not?

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I mean, I don't have any secret insights.

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Sabo is an interesting, like, candidate and everything.

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I don't really know.

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Yeah.

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Even, even if you would have answered here, we would have cut it out probably.

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No, it is Knut's, right, because, because I, I, I think this has been

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coming up a, a, a lot in the space is the, the idea of anonymity or

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pseudonymity and how important it is to maintain that and let people.

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Maintain that, like how danger dangerous it is for people who are developing

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in the space, but for whatever reason want to stay private and, and then

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people getting doxed accidentally.

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So yeah.

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What, what do you think should satoshi remain anonymous?

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Uh, pseudonym.

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It's more interesting if he's unknown.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Uh, so we wrote a bit about this in the book about the, because there's a part,

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uh, there's a, uh, one part of the Bitcoin community who wants to, uh, like that

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sees Satoshi as this messianic figure and wants to put him on a pedestal and

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make him to this superhero, which is very understandable because, because of

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the, Supposed, uh, act of martyrdom that he did, like, just disappearing and not

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taking the opportunity to become the richest man in the world, it was just,

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it's a biblical story.

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so, so, but I see a danger in, in, in, like, hero fying him too much, though,

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because that creates, creates like a, a, a, it makes us more into a cult,

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Yeah, that's true.

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This is what Jesus would say.

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okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Is it what Craig would say?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I

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Probably not.

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yeah.

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Anyway, so there's, there's, there's a lot, there's a bunch of more

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Bitcoin history attached to you.

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Like, uh, uh, we have a Bitcoin pizza day, for instance, where, where I, um, Laszlo

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bought two pizzas for 10, 000 Bitcoin.

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And you did a similar thing just, uh, like a year later, or maybe two years later.

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Yeah.

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And I was there congratulating Laszlo on the next post after him.

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I was there.

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Um, yeah.

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So I, in 2011, I sold over 10, 000 BTC.

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It was a bit over half of what I had.

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So maybe 20, 000 left.

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So I sold a bit over half of it when the exchange rate peaked.

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around 15 to 30 dollars that year.

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So, yeah, so I bought an apartment near Helsinki, in London, studio apartment.

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Pretty nice, but today you would buy the whole district.

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Yeah, you could buy Helsinki with the money.

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Like in 10 years from now, you can probably buy Finland with

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Who knows?

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yes, as I always say, at least I got more than two pizzas.

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Do you regret that?

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Or is that like, uh,

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I have a good story.

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yeah, yeah,

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Of course would be Um, fun to be, be a billionaire or something, but, uh, that

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was not the point when we started working on Bitcoin and I, I can't, um, it's not

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like I've lost anything on this journey.

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Quite that contrarian.

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yeah, yeah, that's the right attitude, I guess.

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I, I, I mean, Yeah, it's such a strange phenomenon because like

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sooner or later, uh, you get Helsinki apartment Bitcoin parity where it's

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one to one and that's pretty close.

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It's like, we were talking about this just before, it's like four Bitcoins

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for the same apartments today, right?

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So what's that?

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A 2, 500 X price increase?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, Yeah, number go up, technology persists, so it can

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happen again and again and again.

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Yeah.

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So, so a little, a little more about the, the early days.

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Like what, what, what else did you get up to then, and, and how long

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were, were you really involved in the Bitcoin development community?

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Uh, I was like really active from 2009 to maybe 2010.

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2009, I was.

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Making some, some contributions to the Bitcoin software.

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I think I made my last push to the repository in 2010 early, but in,

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I needed a real job and Bitcoin was not a real job at that time.

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So I got my first real job in 2010.

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So from then on, I had less time to contribute.

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To beat Bitcoin.

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I am, I think I managed the forums for a few more years.

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Um, usually I say from 2009 to 2011 was my contribution.

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What was the last contribution?

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mostly with the forums, but uh, I also.

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I had bitcoinexchange.

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com for some while, 2010, um, the first like semi automated, uh,

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Bitcoin exchange site, uh, where you could buy and sell Bitcoins from me.

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And it would give you a quote automatically pricing.

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But I lost like 30, 000 Bitcoins.

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I wasn't running it like a business, just wanted to.

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Bitcoin faucet.

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That's at least six pizzas, like, so, so, uh, uh, yeah, so, so what's

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your view on Bitcoin nowadays?

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Like, are you happy with how, how the project has evolved

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over the years and like,

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Yeah, yeah, I'm very happy.

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You walk around here in BTC Prague, you see all the amazing

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things people are building and walking in a mining container.

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Maybe that's something you wouldn't have imagined back in 2009.

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Or when I first went to like a professional mining

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operation in 2014, you know.

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Or yeah, 14.

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In Finland, um, some of the first ASICs that my friends were bringing

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to Finland, they had an old steel factory with like a 10 megawatt

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power line and full of these miners.

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And it was surreal.

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Bitcoin existed only in the virtual space for me for such a long time.

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Now it's real and it's changing the world and I'm, of course, they are, we are

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living, um, critical, interesting times, with all the corporate Bitcoin stuff

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going on, but yeah, I've been following on the sidelines, but I'm, I'm quite happy.

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do you see any, any threats to the project?

247
00:13:48,331 --> 00:13:48,621
And

248
00:13:48,901 --> 00:13:48,968
I

249
00:13:49,021 --> 00:13:56,311
guess like the KYC versus non KYC Bitcoin split seems like a risk.

250
00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:57,266
Yeah.

251
00:13:57,836 --> 00:14:00,286
Oh, what about, what about the spam?

252
00:14:00,296 --> 00:14:04,046
Do you have any opinions there about like people putting other stuff on Bitcoin?

253
00:14:04,924 --> 00:14:06,994
I don't have a strong opinion.

254
00:14:07,444 --> 00:14:09,894
Um, it's a bit annoying, I guess.

255
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,100
Feels unnecessary to me, but they're paying transaction fees and Bitcoin

256
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:20,330
is still working on a lightning network is working and I'm, I'm

257
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:22,220
using it a lot with Nostr these

258
00:14:22,526 --> 00:14:23,415
Yeah, yeah.

259
00:14:23,775 --> 00:14:28,985
Let's not segue to Nostr just yet, but let's get there, of course.

260
00:14:29,385 --> 00:14:34,875
The original tone of the project back in early days, how would you compare

261
00:14:34,875 --> 00:14:40,385
that to now, in terms of the difference between how people were talking

262
00:14:40,385 --> 00:14:44,285
about it, thinking about it, acting about it, and yeah, this day and age?

263
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:51,550
It was a bit different in the very early days when Bitcoin had no value, basically.

264
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,070
Um, maybe I liked it more back then.

265
00:14:56,070 --> 00:15:06,930
It was only idealistic, um, and maybe late 2010 or something when GPU

266
00:15:06,950 --> 00:15:08,540
mining started and like the 2010s.

267
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:08,990
Thanks.

268
00:15:09,870 --> 00:15:14,740
We had an influx of people who were only interested in mining and making money.

269
00:15:15,448 --> 00:15:17,698
Nothing wrong with that per se.

270
00:15:18,038 --> 00:15:20,628
It's like Bitcoin's incentives are working.

271
00:15:21,138 --> 00:15:25,508
Non Bitcoiners are adopting Bitcoin, which is a good thing,

272
00:15:26,088 --> 00:15:29,938
but the vibe changed a little bit.

273
00:15:30,668 --> 00:15:35,158
Well, so, so the original goals of the, the project then back before

274
00:15:35,218 --> 00:15:39,738
it had a value that that's, it's like the cypherpunk mentality, but

275
00:15:39,738 --> 00:15:41,128
you came at it from the money angle.

276
00:15:41,298 --> 00:15:42,168
Is that, is that right?

277
00:15:42,228 --> 00:15:44,598
Yeah, yeah, I was never like an OG cypherpunk.

278
00:15:46,728 --> 00:15:50,858
But, but you were, you were convinced by the, the project pretty quickly, right?

279
00:15:50,858 --> 00:15:54,248
That, that it was going to do, do what, what were you thinking

280
00:15:54,248 --> 00:15:56,978
about, uh, before finding Bitcoin?

281
00:15:56,998 --> 00:16:01,168
Like the, what were you thinking about the, the money system?

282
00:16:01,168 --> 00:16:05,418
Because I'm, I'm interested that, that, You know, were, were you

283
00:16:05,418 --> 00:16:06,678
thinking about other people?

284
00:16:06,678 --> 00:16:10,428
What, whatever about the, the problems with the, the money

285
00:16:10,428 --> 00:16:11,898
system already way back then.

286
00:16:11,898 --> 00:16:16,038
Because one angle about the cipher punk stuff is that they weren't

287
00:16:16,038 --> 00:16:18,048
really thinking about solving money.

288
00:16:18,048 --> 00:16:20,568
They were thinking about solving payments.

289
00:16:21,588 --> 00:16:23,688
What, what is there, is there any truth to that?

290
00:16:23,688 --> 00:16:26,628
What, what were you thinking about that, that got you into the project?

291
00:16:26,763 --> 00:16:31,283
Yeah, well, it was both payments, payments over the internet.

292
00:16:31,583 --> 00:16:36,323
You could send money as easily as email with no middlemen, uh,

293
00:16:36,383 --> 00:16:38,273
but also about the money itself.

294
00:16:38,923 --> 00:16:44,403
I had, well, I was 20 years old at that time, so I, I wasn't that wise yet, but I

295
00:16:44,403 --> 00:16:50,563
had looked into currency a little bit and like, uh, silver and gold money standards.

296
00:16:51,395 --> 00:16:57,395
I think it wasn't really until like 2016, 17, when, uh, uh, especially

297
00:16:57,425 --> 00:17:02,885
Seyfriedin's book, uh, uh, popularized it, but it wasn't until somewhere

298
00:17:02,885 --> 00:17:07,025
there that people started to take this Austrian economics angle to its

299
00:17:07,025 --> 00:17:10,545
full extent and talk about sound money and number go up and stuff like that.

300
00:17:11,150 --> 00:17:16,440
Yeah, was that angle present at all, uh, back early days, even in your thinking,

301
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:17,580
did you come across any of that?

302
00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:19,390
Uh, you mean sound money?

303
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:21,060
Yeah, exactly.

304
00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:22,740
Yeah, of course, that's the whole point.

305
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:23,390
The government

306
00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:23,880
Uh, yeah.

307
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:31,980
Well, Hal was onto it, like Hal Tweeted, uh, wrote, or not tweeted, but , um,

308
00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:36,210
he tweeted running Bitcoin, but he, he, he hinted at Bitcoin going to,

309
00:17:36,750 --> 00:17:38,880
uh, a million dollars very early on.

310
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:38,970
Right.

311
00:17:39,655 --> 00:17:39,965
Hmm.

312
00:17:40,205 --> 00:17:44,155
Yeah, I guess I like realized in theory, this could have a lot of value.

313
00:17:44,215 --> 00:17:48,375
I didn't have a life experience to tell me that good theories can become true.

314
00:17:48,435 --> 00:17:49,135
And who knows?

315
00:17:49,195 --> 00:17:50,795
Maybe most ideas.

316
00:17:52,205 --> 00:17:52,835
So, so what?

317
00:17:53,015 --> 00:17:54,695
Did you ever have a shit coining face?

318
00:17:55,045 --> 00:17:55,435
Yeah.

319
00:17:55,465 --> 00:17:55,775
Yeah.

320
00:17:55,975 --> 00:17:56,835
Unfortunately,

321
00:17:57,355 --> 00:17:57,765
uh, Not,

322
00:17:57,795 --> 00:17:58,005
not

323
00:17:58,005 --> 00:18:03,815
seriously, but like, well, I was, um, in 2015, I think Goldman Sachs

324
00:18:03,825 --> 00:18:05,715
started pushing this, uh, meme.

325
00:18:05,745 --> 00:18:07,045
It's it's blockchain.

326
00:18:07,045 --> 00:18:07,715
It's not Bitcoin.

327
00:18:07,915 --> 00:18:08,745
Like they could not

328
00:18:08,785 --> 00:18:11,645
discredit the entire thing, but they didn't like Bitcoin back then.

329
00:18:11,645 --> 00:18:11,855
Yeah.

330
00:18:12,105 --> 00:18:14,385
I never believed in it.

331
00:18:14,825 --> 00:18:17,695
There was this, all this blockchain hype and I was like,

332
00:18:17,695 --> 00:18:19,535
it's the Emperor's new clothes.

333
00:18:20,545 --> 00:18:24,425
Um, I went to Satoshi Roundtable a couple years ago.

334
00:18:24,475 --> 00:18:26,915
I guess that's when shit coinery struck me.

335
00:18:26,915 --> 00:18:30,595
I thought it was, it's like, everyone's doing this stuff.

336
00:18:31,005 --> 00:18:36,175
Um, not like seriously or scamming, but, um, we, a couple of years ago,

337
00:18:36,175 --> 00:18:38,395
we had this social nouns project.

338
00:18:38,405 --> 00:18:39,735
So if you know, there's.

339
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:45,590
A DAO called Nouns on Ethereum, so every day they generate, the smart

340
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:50,630
contract generates these random pixel dude avatars on chain and auctions them.

341
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,650
They were selling for crazy amounts, like a hundred F and they had like

342
00:18:56,010 --> 00:18:57,840
$30 million in their treasury.

343
00:18:58,340 --> 00:19:02,330
And, um, the NFTs would be shares of the DAO.

344
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,350
So DAO kind of interesting idea.

345
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,925
We forked, um, nouns and made like a finished culture themed version of it.

346
00:19:11,385 --> 00:19:12,285
Was movements

347
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:13,190
?  No.

348
00:19:13,195 --> 00:19:14,090
It's like,

349
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:16,060
okay.

350
00:19:17,050 --> 00:19:17,340
Yeah.

351
00:19:17,410 --> 00:19:18,370
and everything.

352
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:18,970
Um.

353
00:19:19,945 --> 00:19:25,545
So we ran that for a while with the mission to fund, uh, decentralized

354
00:19:25,575 --> 00:19:27,645
social networking initiatives.

355
00:19:27,675 --> 00:19:32,195
It was like, I was about to, so I had been working for decentralized

356
00:19:32,215 --> 00:19:33,435
social media for a while.

357
00:19:33,475 --> 00:19:40,835
I was about to quit because it wasn't like, um, it wasn't gaining traction.

358
00:19:41,365 --> 00:19:43,115
So that was like the last effort.

359
00:19:43,705 --> 00:19:45,615
We ran the DAO for a while.

360
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:49,340
But we didn't feel like continuing it, so we shut it down and

361
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:51,010
returned the funds to the buyers.

362
00:19:51,265 --> 00:19:55,525
So it wasn't decentralized or and autonomous then if you could shut it

363
00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:56,040
No,

364
00:19:56,270 --> 00:19:56,610
because

365
00:19:56,610 --> 00:19:56,790
we

366
00:19:56,790 --> 00:20:00,780
had the majority of the tokens, so we could vote

367
00:20:01,015 --> 00:20:01,855
Alright, alright.

368
00:20:01,945 --> 00:20:02,095
Yeah.

369
00:20:02,370 --> 00:20:03,250
return the funds.

370
00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:10,430
Well, so, so, okay, um, shitcoining aside, and, I mean, that's the single

371
00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:16,920
most interestingly, at least, branded cool project I've heard of, so that's funny.

372
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:17,670
I'll give you

373
00:20:17,995 --> 00:20:19,015
Because of the costing cover.

374
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:19,980
Because of Kostka and Korra.

375
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:20,570
Yeah, Exactly.

376
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,950
So, what gave you the idea about decentralized social network?

377
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:07,670
What was, yeah, the original thought behind that?

378
00:22:08,485 --> 00:22:12,575
that's something that crossed my mind pretty soon after Bitcoin.

379
00:22:12,575 --> 00:22:16,905
I was like, what would be the next most important thing we should decentralize?

380
00:22:16,905 --> 00:22:21,755
And I thought it's, well, actually first it wasn't even social media.

381
00:22:21,755 --> 00:22:24,875
It was like reputation and identity.

382
00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:31,360
That I was thinking about, uh, so I was thinking we need an alternative, like,

383
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:40,840
um, um, social force for good, like, um, an alternative to government courts.

384
00:22:41,921 --> 00:22:48,091
so like, like we have this rating system, some Uber and Airbnb and whatever,

385
00:22:49,051 --> 00:22:50,941
and sometimes they work pretty well.

386
00:22:51,191 --> 00:22:55,006
But I was thinking we should have like a decentralized version of

387
00:22:55,006 --> 00:23:01,316
this, um, and also an alternative to centralized identity like domain

388
00:23:01,326 --> 00:23:03,426
names or phone numbers or whatever.

389
00:23:04,718 --> 00:23:09,228
Yeah, and so, okay, this is actually an interesting point here.

390
00:23:10,648 --> 00:23:14,828
Was doing this on or around Bitcoin ever in the discussion or was this

391
00:23:14,838 --> 00:23:19,358
always through some other, you know, Ethereum or whatever it is?

392
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:19,533
Yeah.

393
00:23:19,798 --> 00:23:24,328
And no, I, I didn't ever think we would need a blockchain for that.

394
00:23:24,883 --> 00:23:27,133
Okay, so, so yeah, I get this.

395
00:23:27,143 --> 00:23:30,043
So this is, this is an interesting, interesting ideas, right?

396
00:23:30,043 --> 00:23:36,413
Because why, what's the, what's the thought process about blockchain

397
00:23:36,413 --> 00:23:40,963
versus no blockchain or, or using, using some kind of DAO versus not?

398
00:23:40,963 --> 00:23:42,513
What, what was your thought process there?

399
00:23:43,148 --> 00:23:47,268
Because, um, blockchain is necessary to prevent the double spending problem.

400
00:23:47,318 --> 00:23:51,413
And if you need a global consensus, but In a reputation system or in a

401
00:23:51,413 --> 00:23:56,443
social network, you don't actually want an expensive and a slow, um,

402
00:23:56,493 --> 00:23:58,993
and low bandwidth global consensus.

403
00:23:59,923 --> 00:24:00,163
No.

404
00:24:00,163 --> 00:24:03,343
So cryptography is enough in this sense, I

405
00:24:03,623 --> 00:24:04,023
Yeah.

406
00:24:04,153 --> 00:24:04,523
just

407
00:24:04,523 --> 00:24:07,173
a public key based peer to peer system

408
00:24:07,353 --> 00:24:08,053
like, like

409
00:24:08,083 --> 00:24:08,813
Nostris now.

410
00:24:09,053 --> 00:24:09,283
Yeah.

411
00:24:09,313 --> 00:24:11,603
And you're, you're working on Nostr now, right?

412
00:24:11,673 --> 00:24:14,153
Uh, working for Snort.

413
00:24:14,253 --> 00:24:14,893
Is that right?

414
00:24:15,557 --> 00:24:20,017
yeah, we joined, so I, I've been working on my client named Iris

415
00:24:20,027 --> 00:24:21,617
for quite a while, but we joined

416
00:24:21,617 --> 00:24:23,467
forces with Snort, another client.

417
00:24:23,487 --> 00:24:23,677
Yeah.

418
00:24:23,677 --> 00:24:23,897
Yeah.

419
00:24:25,017 --> 00:24:28,117
Take us through the whole thing, like, finding Nostr

420
00:24:28,147 --> 00:24:30,277
and realizing it was the one.

421
00:24:30,687 --> 00:24:32,597
Yeah, so.

422
00:24:33,502 --> 00:24:37,612
I started with, so from the reputation thing, I eventually

423
00:24:37,652 --> 00:24:39,072
pivoted to social media.

424
00:24:39,142 --> 00:24:41,852
I realized it's a more familiar concept to people.

425
00:24:41,902 --> 00:24:47,847
It's um, like, um, familiar concept to follow someone instead of giving,

426
00:24:47,947 --> 00:24:50,227
uh, like trust ratings or something.

427
00:24:50,874 --> 00:24:56,338
It used to be called Identify My Identity thing, then I came up with the name Iris,

428
00:24:56,338 --> 00:25:02,818
which means rainbow in ancient Greek and kind of symbolizes the plurality of voices

429
00:25:02,818 --> 00:25:05,838
and diversity of humanity in a good way.

430
00:25:07,098 --> 00:25:11,518
And it's also the Greek goddess of the rainbow and the messenger

431
00:25:11,518 --> 00:25:14,008
of gods, so it seemed fitting.

432
00:25:15,349 --> 00:25:21,560
In 2019, I think, when I had Iris, the decentralized social network, it was

433
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,840
not Nostr back then, it was another, another decentralized system, very

434
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,150
similar, public key based, and you would synchronize stuff over web sockets.

435
00:25:32,168 --> 00:25:36,239
so 2022, it was not gaining traction.

436
00:25:36,369 --> 00:25:40,649
I was ready to abandon it, but then the Nostr happened.

437
00:25:41,429 --> 00:25:47,399
I think that's when Jack Dorsey joined Nostr in December 2022.

438
00:25:47,969 --> 00:25:51,329
And, uh, that's when it started booming.

439
00:25:51,339 --> 00:25:57,979
And, um, as it was so similar to my system, it was easy to

440
00:25:57,979 --> 00:25:59,959
convert Iris into a Nostr app.

441
00:26:00,794 --> 00:26:05,534
So, I got a bit of a head start with that and uh, many people

442
00:26:05,534 --> 00:26:07,714
were using Iris back in the day.

443
00:26:07,724 --> 00:26:10,354
So Iris is a browser based Nostro client.

444
00:26:10,514 --> 00:26:12,364
Very easy to start using.

445
00:26:14,184 --> 00:26:18,784
Yeah, and so, can you explain what is a client and a little bit about the

446
00:26:18,804 --> 00:26:22,964
architecture of Nostr for those who aren't familiar, like, why does it work?

447
00:26:23,589 --> 00:26:27,689
Yeah, so Nostris works because it's really simple and it's very

448
00:26:27,689 --> 00:26:29,969
easy for developers to work with.

449
00:26:30,849 --> 00:26:33,179
So accounts are basically public keys.

450
00:26:33,589 --> 00:26:36,739
You don't need a service provider, unlike email or something.

451
00:26:37,069 --> 00:26:38,159
It's, it's like Bitcoin.

452
00:26:38,169 --> 00:26:40,819
You just generate a public key and that's your account.

453
00:26:41,869 --> 00:26:43,019
Permissionless system.

454
00:26:43,721 --> 00:26:43,931
Yeah.

455
00:26:43,931 --> 00:26:48,381
We had, uh, Miljan from Primal on the show just a couple of weeks back.

456
00:26:48,761 --> 00:26:52,651
It was very interesting about, about, uh, like the developments in Nostr.

457
00:26:52,941 --> 00:26:56,531
And there's also this Nostriga thing happening in August.

458
00:26:57,026 --> 00:27:03,036
So, and we're doing a lot of stuff there, uh, as, so, uh, there'll be a big event

459
00:27:03,296 --> 00:27:07,716
starting on Infinity Day and then the rest of the week is all Nostr and Bitcoin.

460
00:27:07,786 --> 00:27:09,666
Uh, we're looking forward to that a lot.

461
00:27:10,166 --> 00:27:11,556
Uh, are you, are you coming to Riga?

462
00:27:11,557 --> 00:27:12,126
Yes.

463
00:27:12,126 --> 00:27:12,436
Yeah.

464
00:27:12,986 --> 00:27:14,146
It's just next doors, right?

465
00:27:14,306 --> 00:27:14,606
Yeah.

466
00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:16,026
Yeah.

467
00:27:16,046 --> 00:27:18,196
So, so, uh, yeah, you can use code Freedom.

468
00:27:19,756 --> 00:27:21,346
for 10% off, I think.

469
00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:22,096
Yeah.

470
00:27:22,561 --> 00:27:23,201
Exactly.

471
00:27:23,551 --> 00:27:26,401
Yeah, so, so, okay, Nostr is simple.

472
00:27:26,701 --> 00:27:29,091
The relay systems is sort of how it scales.

473
00:27:29,371 --> 00:27:29,691
Right?

474
00:27:30,001 --> 00:27:33,851
That, uh, individuals don't need to connect to every other individual.

475
00:27:33,851 --> 00:27:37,651
They can go through this, this relay system to get connected.

476
00:27:38,269 --> 00:27:38,616
Yeah.

477
00:27:38,886 --> 00:27:42,106
Although I would like to advance the peer to peer side as well.

478
00:27:43,056 --> 00:27:45,646
Like, clients connecting directly to each other.

479
00:27:46,286 --> 00:27:50,656
There's, relays are a bit difficult, um, for scaling.

480
00:27:50,686 --> 00:27:53,526
I mean, like, they're expensive to host.

481
00:27:54,856 --> 00:27:59,386
There are some, like, paid relays, but, um, it would be in some ways

482
00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:01,096
easier if you connect to your friends.

483
00:28:01,126 --> 00:28:05,016
Like, everyone's already paying for storage on their phone and, uh,

484
00:28:05,056 --> 00:28:07,396
for their bandwidth with their ISP.

485
00:28:07,751 --> 00:28:10,526
I, I remember in the early days of file sharing, there was a

486
00:28:10,526 --> 00:28:12,866
program called DC plus Plus.

487
00:28:12,871 --> 00:28:12,951
Yeah.

488
00:28:13,046 --> 00:28:13,546
I used it.

489
00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:16,976
That was, uh, it was before Torrance were a thing,

490
00:28:17,136 --> 00:28:17,396
Yeah,

491
00:28:17,396 --> 00:28:17,616
that's

492
00:28:17,786 --> 00:28:18,266
great.

493
00:28:18,746 --> 00:28:23,176
But also Pirate Bay was one of my inspirations with Bitcoin.

494
00:28:23,346 --> 00:28:25,206
Actually, when I had my BitcoinExchange.

495
00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:27,806
com, I used the layout of PirateBay.

496
00:28:27,866 --> 00:28:28,396
com as

497
00:28:28,756 --> 00:28:30,276
the template for my site.

498
00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:30,466
Yeah.

499
00:28:30,466 --> 00:28:33,286
I have a bit of, a bit of history with Pyro Bay as well.

500
00:28:33,586 --> 00:28:36,671
Uh, I grew up in the same town as one of the three founders.

501
00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:40,276
And I was friends with his older brother, I think, because we

502
00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:41,976
were a couple of years older.

503
00:28:42,406 --> 00:28:47,236
And then we made a music video, uh, like, uh, what can that

504
00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:48,216
have been, like 12 years?

505
00:28:48,436 --> 00:28:51,656
No, it's like 10 years ago now, something like that.

506
00:28:52,056 --> 00:28:56,106
And, uh, uploaded it to, they had something called the Promo Bay.

507
00:28:56,566 --> 00:28:58,066
So they promoted local bands.

508
00:28:58,066 --> 00:28:59,926
And all of a sudden, our video was on.

509
00:29:00,446 --> 00:29:07,456
on the front page of the Pirate Bay and and the the views just kept kept

510
00:29:07,456 --> 00:29:10,806
rolling in so we got like a hundred thousand views in three days or something

511
00:29:10,806 --> 00:29:15,736
and it's like my first experience of something weird happening on the

512
00:29:15,736 --> 00:29:20,906
internet to me so like sitting there pressing f5 and like holy shit this

513
00:29:20,906 --> 00:29:23,236
is going on as a exhilarating for sure

514
00:29:23,266 --> 00:29:26,706
At one point, like, half of the internet traffic was BitTorrent.

515
00:29:27,386 --> 00:29:31,246
yeah yeah it's uh yeah super cool and it's i mean it's still working

516
00:29:31,646 --> 00:29:31,916
Yeah.

517
00:29:32,562 --> 00:29:32,792
Yeah.

518
00:29:32,792 --> 00:29:37,312
And, and like, so, so, Bitcoin, BitTorrent, Nostr, all of

519
00:29:37,312 --> 00:29:38,652
these decentralized things.

520
00:29:39,982 --> 00:29:40,952
Are we there now?

521
00:29:40,982 --> 00:29:47,222
Do we have the toolkit to be able to get out from the centralized

522
00:29:47,672 --> 00:29:50,532
authorities and the centralized services?

523
00:29:51,092 --> 00:29:54,392
is, is is it there, even if it's still early, the network effect

524
00:29:54,392 --> 00:29:58,242
hasn't really gotten there yet with Nostr, for example, is, is, is there

525
00:29:58,242 --> 00:29:59,912
anything, is there anything else needed?

526
00:30:00,827 --> 00:30:06,077
Yeah, I think Bitcoin does a good job with money and I think, maybe,

527
00:30:06,177 --> 00:30:08,527
I hope Nostr can do everything else.

528
00:30:09,757 --> 00:30:13,567
The public key based accounts and the social graph that they form

529
00:30:13,877 --> 00:30:17,807
can be used for many kinds of purposes, not just social media.

530
00:30:18,012 --> 00:30:21,092
Emilien was saying that it basically solves the spam problem

531
00:30:21,142 --> 00:30:25,922
immediately by just taking the accounts that other people follow.

532
00:30:25,922 --> 00:30:28,722
The spam accounts can't get their own followers.

533
00:30:28,947 --> 00:30:34,652
Yeah, web of trust, web of trust was like, One of my core ideas back in

534
00:30:34,862 --> 00:30:40,952
2013 14 when I started the identity thing and I'm so glad it's catching on.

535
00:30:41,682 --> 00:30:42,572
Yeah, that's fantastic.

536
00:30:42,882 --> 00:30:47,702
Uh, back briefly to the Pirate Bay, did you see the documentary they made about

537
00:30:47,702 --> 00:30:50,412
the trial against these three guys?

538
00:30:51,192 --> 00:30:51,942
Might have seen.

539
00:30:51,942 --> 00:30:52,567
Yeah.

540
00:30:53,102 --> 00:30:58,576
that was also like, for me, that's like, uh, some kind of, uh, inflection

541
00:30:58,576 --> 00:30:59,946
point or whatever you may call it.

542
00:30:59,976 --> 00:31:07,166
Like, uh, uh, it, it really, uh, shone a light on how corrupt the juridical

543
00:31:07,176 --> 00:31:11,826
system is and the international courts and stuff, because these people weren't doing.

544
00:31:11,901 --> 00:31:15,211
They only hosted links.

545
00:31:15,241 --> 00:31:16,831
They didn't host anything, really.

546
00:31:17,121 --> 00:31:17,881
So it's just links.

547
00:31:17,891 --> 00:31:21,311
So they were, they were, Google were just as guilty as they were

548
00:31:21,311 --> 00:31:23,011
because they linked to them.

549
00:31:23,111 --> 00:31:23,511
So,

550
00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:24,956
Like the U.

551
00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:25,136
S.

552
00:31:25,166 --> 00:31:27,326
media corporations are using the U.

553
00:31:27,326 --> 00:31:27,476
S.

554
00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:29,116
government to pressure Sweden.

555
00:31:29,271 --> 00:31:33,921
yeah, and there were so many really weird things, like the police officer

556
00:31:33,921 --> 00:31:40,001
who, who, uh, who had the, uh, what's it called, who knocked on their

557
00:31:40,001 --> 00:31:42,681
doors and, yeah, yeah, arrested them.

558
00:31:42,681 --> 00:31:46,801
But what's it called when you get, I, I Um, the word, yeah, yeah, the

559
00:31:46,801 --> 00:31:53,691
search warrant, uh, to go in and ransack the flat, uh, he, he got a job

560
00:31:53,691 --> 00:31:56,031
at some Hollywood studio afterwards.

561
00:31:56,581 --> 00:31:59,001
So he like moved out to Sweden and got a job with like

562
00:31:59,001 --> 00:32:00,021
Warner Brothers or something.

563
00:32:00,866 --> 00:32:03,236
It's just so, so corrupt.

564
00:32:03,616 --> 00:32:05,556
Uh, but if you haven't seen it, you should.

565
00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:06,186
It's called TPBAFK.

566
00:32:09,766 --> 00:32:10,406
I've seen it

567
00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:10,856
a long

568
00:32:10,866 --> 00:32:11,404
time ago.

569
00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:14,576
there's a quote from the documentary that they prefer

570
00:32:14,626 --> 00:32:18,586
the abbreviation AFK to, to, um.

571
00:32:19,191 --> 00:32:24,191
IRL, because I'm just away from keyboard, the internet is the real

572
00:32:24,191 --> 00:32:27,961
world, like there's no such thing as IRL and then the internet, it's

573
00:32:28,181 --> 00:32:29,661
just away from keyboard or not.

574
00:32:30,291 --> 00:32:33,211
So yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, great movie.

575
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:38,049
We're jumping around a bit, but on the topic of court cases, so

576
00:32:38,979 --> 00:32:43,139
the involvement in the recent Coppa case, that's what we

577
00:32:43,739 --> 00:32:45,649
touched on at the beginning there.

578
00:32:46,449 --> 00:32:49,669
What made that feel worthwhile to you?

579
00:32:49,679 --> 00:32:51,879
Was there a real threat there, did you think?

580
00:32:52,717 --> 00:32:54,507
Well, I kind of wanted to.

581
00:32:54,897 --> 00:32:57,457
Avoid the whole thing and have nothing to do with it.

582
00:32:58,747 --> 00:33:03,900
But, um, sometimes I guess it's important to speak the truth.

583
00:33:04,010 --> 00:33:07,380
And I really appreciate Hodlonaut and everyone else

584
00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:10,740
who's been doing exactly that.

585
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:16,280
Do you regret that you were always yourself, uh, in, in this space?

586
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:16,570
Well,

587
00:33:17,510 --> 00:33:18,810
actually, actually, actually, wait, wait,

588
00:33:18,905 --> 00:33:20,155
as opposed to anonymous, you mean?

589
00:33:20,350 --> 00:33:21,960
what was the story on, on that?

590
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,550
Because I know you, you, you still have, uh, some of the original,

591
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,760
the original handle, um, right?

592
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,980
Do you still go by Sirius, um,

593
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:30,540
Yeah, I

594
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:33,250
was never like, uh, pseudonymous or anonymous.

595
00:33:33,250 --> 00:33:34,700
It was just my handle.

596
00:33:35,341 --> 00:33:39,011
but, but you, you weren't, you weren't trying to hide your identity or anything.

597
00:33:39,021 --> 00:33:41,301
Do, do you have any, any regrets about that?

598
00:33:41,331 --> 00:33:41,351
Yeah.

599
00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:42,021
not at all.

600
00:33:42,816 --> 00:33:46,106
So what's, what's your thinking, uh, on that?

601
00:33:46,986 --> 00:33:53,456
The, the, um, the benefits, um, versus the drawbacks of, of being anonymous.

602
00:33:53,486 --> 00:33:54,616
What, what do you think about that?

603
00:33:55,121 --> 00:33:59,941
No, I guess you, if you want to be like truly anonymous and stay, stay hidden,

604
00:33:59,951 --> 00:34:03,661
you need to go to, um, links like Satoshi.

605
00:34:04,181 --> 00:34:04,511
Yeah,

606
00:34:04,661 --> 00:34:07,261
You store everywhere and be really careful.

607
00:34:08,171 --> 00:34:14,961
Um, there'll be many people who have been doxxed like the Nostr founder recently.

608
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:21,469
I guess, I guess, um, like the lawsuits have shown that.

609
00:34:21,619 --> 00:34:30,299
It has its advantages to stay anonymous sometimes and like, um, yeah, yeah.

610
00:34:30,309 --> 00:34:34,069
And recently the maybe samurai wallet or

611
00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:34,799
yeah, yeah.

612
00:34:36,089 --> 00:34:38,049
but it's, you need to be really careful.

613
00:34:38,049 --> 00:34:43,899
And it's, I, I'm not sure if I would be willing to do that, to take that stress

614
00:34:43,899 --> 00:34:45,829
from staying anonymous and hidden.

615
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:49,429
No, the opposite side of that coin is that we need people on the battlefront

616
00:34:49,429 --> 00:34:54,439
who are ready to take the, I mean, this whole thing, we, we just saw Erik Cason's

617
00:34:54,439 --> 00:34:56,739
opening speech here at the, at the venue.

618
00:34:56,749 --> 00:34:57,919
It's great speech.

619
00:34:58,289 --> 00:34:59,169
Uh, and because,

620
00:34:59,294 --> 00:35:00,324
to BTC Prague, it's

621
00:35:00,324 --> 00:35:00,724
actually

622
00:35:00,829 --> 00:35:02,549
it's absolutely fantastic.

623
00:35:02,739 --> 00:35:07,329
And it's so spot on that, like, these people that want to take

624
00:35:07,339 --> 00:35:09,439
our stuff against our will.

625
00:35:10,044 --> 00:35:11,174
Are the criminals.

626
00:35:11,794 --> 00:35:13,004
They are the problem.

627
00:35:13,414 --> 00:35:20,924
And if there's a, a juridical system that can, that can, like, make a, a,

628
00:35:20,994 --> 00:35:26,894
a great guy such as Hodlonaut have to fight a legal battle for five

629
00:35:26,894 --> 00:35:30,684
years, like, he's one of the most ethical, ethical people I know of.

630
00:35:30,964 --> 00:35:34,334
And, and, and the Pirate Bay people, and all of this.

631
00:35:34,874 --> 00:35:37,214
It's happening in this world we're living in now.

632
00:35:37,324 --> 00:35:45,014
So, so Bitcoin and Nostr are the tools to get out of this thing and like show people

633
00:35:45,014 --> 00:35:48,014
that these ideas don't come from nowhere.

634
00:35:48,354 --> 00:35:53,094
They come from insights about human action and what we are and what we

635
00:35:53,094 --> 00:35:56,454
do and violence versus non violence.

636
00:35:56,964 --> 00:35:57,144
Uh,

637
00:35:57,484 --> 00:36:01,244
and that's the fight we're taking, and like, we're proud to be taking it.

638
00:36:01,274 --> 00:36:03,754
Like, we should, we should really stand our ground.

639
00:36:04,139 --> 00:36:04,729
Yes.

640
00:36:05,746 --> 00:36:08,506
that, that anonymous pseudonymous, there's anything wrong with that.

641
00:36:08,546 --> 00:36:08,996
And then

642
00:36:09,026 --> 00:36:11,806
there's, there's reasons for people making, for making that choice, right?

643
00:36:12,156 --> 00:36:15,296
I mean, with, with Hotlinet, it was, it was like too unique.

644
00:36:15,816 --> 00:36:18,996
Things that were wrong with the world.

645
00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:26,916
Uh, it was that the UK libel laws are very specifically super easy for

646
00:36:27,086 --> 00:36:31,076
a famous person to just say, you've libeled me, I've got lots of money and

647
00:36:31,076 --> 00:36:34,771
I can sue you, and then that all the other countries say, you've libeled me.

648
00:36:35,101 --> 00:36:37,811
We will follow your legal rulings and

649
00:36:38,261 --> 00:36:39,311
exactly, Exactly.

650
00:36:39,321 --> 00:36:40,851
So it's, it's that interconnectedness.

651
00:36:40,881 --> 00:36:44,841
It's the, it's the states backing each other up is the real root problem.

652
00:36:45,151 --> 00:36:49,731
If you get it, I can't imagine that, say, the Federated States of

653
00:36:49,731 --> 00:36:54,801
Micronesia could decide that, you know, that, that their libel laws are

654
00:36:54,811 --> 00:36:57,841
just absolutely like nuts bonkers now.

655
00:36:57,891 --> 00:37:00,441
And, and all of the other countries of the world would do that.

656
00:37:00,441 --> 00:37:05,081
But the UK has the historical standing and they're, Legal system, and so, it's

657
00:37:05,081 --> 00:37:10,861
just, he got screwed so many ways, and then of course, the motivation to find

658
00:37:10,861 --> 00:37:15,061
out his identity and all this, it's tough, and so, I guess back to the idea

659
00:37:15,061 --> 00:37:20,291
of that, yeah, maybe it's better to just have the control yourself, and not

660
00:37:20,321 --> 00:37:25,891
be pseudonymous, because in a way, you take control of your own identity, I

661
00:37:25,891 --> 00:37:31,201
am me, and there's nothing hidden here, so you can't take that away from me.

662
00:37:32,711 --> 00:37:33,271
Right?

663
00:37:35,381 --> 00:37:38,331
You can't get your identity taken away from you.

664
00:37:38,331 --> 00:37:42,521
You can't have that overlay layer can't ever get stripped back, right?

665
00:37:42,971 --> 00:37:47,561
I think that's the risk of being pseudonymous or anonymous, right?

666
00:37:47,746 --> 00:37:50,736
it might give you a false sense of security, I guess.

667
00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:51,176
Yeah.

668
00:37:51,977 --> 00:37:54,877
It can become catastrophic if you lose it, basically.

669
00:37:55,982 --> 00:38:02,012
But like, Bitcoin has pointed out so well that money printing is, is evil,

670
00:38:02,132 --> 00:38:08,667
and it's, uh, it's enriching people on levels that are just Unimaginable.

671
00:38:08,957 --> 00:38:14,587
Uh, the state has so much power everywhere and they use it for

672
00:38:14,637 --> 00:38:17,357
other evil stuff, like, uh,

673
00:38:17,682 --> 00:38:20,472
and Bitcoin has opened our eyes in this regard.

674
00:38:20,522 --> 00:38:24,842
Many people have only with Bitcoin started thinking about these things.

675
00:38:25,167 --> 00:38:30,307
yeah, which is, which is in hindsight, it's so like, how could, before, before

676
00:38:30,827 --> 00:38:36,877
the Bitcoin paradigm, how could everyone on earth just Buy into this bullshit,

677
00:38:37,067 --> 00:38:41,297
it's, it's, it blows, blows the mind that, that everyone fell for it.

678
00:38:41,387 --> 00:38:45,427
And like, only a handful of people on the entire planet was

679
00:38:45,447 --> 00:38:46,837
thinking about a solution for it.

680
00:38:46,867 --> 00:38:48,707
It's just, it's just weird.

681
00:38:48,872 --> 00:38:49,322
yeah.

682
00:38:50,172 --> 00:38:51,962
Bitcoin like forces you to think about it.

683
00:38:51,982 --> 00:38:53,752
First you're like, no, it's not gonna work.

684
00:38:53,762 --> 00:38:54,402
Then you start.

685
00:38:54,582 --> 00:38:57,862
I'm thinking, wait a minute, how does money actually work?

686
00:38:57,912 --> 00:38:58,232
Yeah.

687
00:38:58,787 --> 00:39:01,867
And then, wait another minute, it has to work.

688
00:39:02,087 --> 00:39:03,967
Like, otherwise, like, it's just darkness.

689
00:39:04,532 --> 00:39:10,942
Ahead, you know, programmable people and CBDCs, uh, yeah, that's awful.

690
00:39:10,952 --> 00:39:11,522
So yeah.

691
00:39:12,082 --> 00:39:17,212
Fight the fight, increase your freedom footprint, brush your teeth, amen.

692
00:39:18,457 --> 00:39:20,577
Share, like, subscribe, etc, etc.

693
00:40:20,943 --> 00:40:25,813
Maybe on a, maybe on a slightly related note here, bringing it close to home,

694
00:40:25,943 --> 00:40:30,903
slightly literally, uh, Finland has actually been really involved in

695
00:40:31,153 --> 00:40:35,103
Bitcoin from the very early days, and I mean, our listeners know and

696
00:40:35,103 --> 00:40:39,643
understand, I'm the pseudo Finn, I'm the, I've picked Finland as my adopted

697
00:40:39,643 --> 00:40:43,663
home and all this, and I guess this is, this is a whole line of questions.

698
00:40:44,093 --> 00:40:47,573
Uh, one of the things is, I've, I've been sort of asserting that I think Finland

699
00:40:47,573 --> 00:40:52,923
is one of the least insane places on the planet, but that's sort of biased from

700
00:40:52,923 --> 00:40:55,363
someone coming from outside to, to in.

701
00:40:56,013 --> 00:40:57,443
What, what do you, what do you think?

702
00:40:57,443 --> 00:41:00,283
What, what keeps you, uh, in Finland?

703
00:41:00,283 --> 00:41:04,123
Is it actually, compared to other places, less insane?

704
00:41:04,966 --> 00:41:08,816
Well, I guess family and friends is what keeps me in Finland.

705
00:41:09,776 --> 00:41:10,746
Native culture.

706
00:41:10,826 --> 00:41:12,306
I guess it's my home after all.

707
00:41:12,736 --> 00:41:16,156
Korskyn Korva?

708
00:41:16,636 --> 00:41:16,936
Yeah.

709
00:41:17,636 --> 00:41:21,616
Summer is pretty nice, but everyone in Finland fantasizes about moving,

710
00:41:21,706 --> 00:41:23,736
going somewhere south in the winter.

711
00:41:23,786 --> 00:41:25,126
I guess it's the same in Sweden.

712
00:41:25,466 --> 00:41:27,436
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I did.

713
00:41:28,016 --> 00:41:31,556
So how, why do you think Finland is less insane?

714
00:41:32,123 --> 00:41:39,716
Yeah, to, to me, the social system, uh, is pretty okay in terms of that things work.

715
00:41:40,776 --> 00:41:44,966
And not just the social system, I mean, government run stuff, just

716
00:41:45,046 --> 00:41:48,506
society as a whole works pretty well.

717
00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:53,306
Of course, of course there are cases where it doesn't work for someone in particular,

718
00:41:53,606 --> 00:41:56,566
and every type of bureaucracy or something

719
00:41:56,926 --> 00:42:01,126
This is relative to other countries and not relative to the private sector.

720
00:42:01,396 --> 00:42:01,656
Yeah.

721
00:42:01,671 --> 00:42:02,151
Exactly.

722
00:42:02,151 --> 00:42:06,531
Well, but I'm also talking about that there's private sector elements,

723
00:42:06,531 --> 00:42:10,791
like, companies all have this, everyone has the same types of,

724
00:42:10,801 --> 00:42:12,621
for example, vacation policies.

725
00:42:13,151 --> 00:42:15,891
I don't believe there's a law that says the companies have to

726
00:42:15,901 --> 00:42:21,051
give an extra vacation bonus, but they all do, because the employees

727
00:42:21,051 --> 00:42:22,451
wouldn't work for them otherwise.

728
00:42:23,076 --> 00:42:24,946
Uh, something, something like this.

729
00:42:24,946 --> 00:42:29,416
And, and so it's, it's just, to, to me, my impression is that, is that

730
00:42:29,456 --> 00:42:36,746
Finland is, is pretty well functioning as a society compared to many, if not

731
00:42:36,746 --> 00:42:38,676
most of the other places in the world.

732
00:42:38,676 --> 00:42:43,016
And that maybe there's some lessons to learn about that the society

733
00:42:43,046 --> 00:42:45,096
can build in a way that's cohesive.

734
00:42:45,391 --> 00:42:49,201
Yeah, I guess it's the same in all of Scandinavia, like culture of trust

735
00:42:49,201 --> 00:42:54,361
and we have institutions that work to some extent, like the corruption

736
00:42:54,391 --> 00:42:56,051
is maybe on a different level.

737
00:42:56,101 --> 00:43:00,530
You don't bribe, bribe the officials in everyday encounters, it's,

738
00:43:01,010 --> 00:43:05,400
No, no, I see it as you have to bribe them on a higher level, like you bribe

739
00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:08,940
the top instead of the policemen on the street, you have to bribe the entire

740
00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:15,890
institution, which, and I've, coming from Sweden, I've seen, like, I think that is

741
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,180
the main problem with the Scandinavian countries, this culture of trust in

742
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:24,180
the institutions, because when the institutions fail, it's dangerous as fuck.

743
00:43:24,745 --> 00:43:27,245
well, I don't necessarily mean trust in the institutions.

744
00:43:27,255 --> 00:43:30,480
Uh, more like trust in Each other

745
00:43:30,605 --> 00:43:31,795
Yeah, that's also true.

746
00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:32,180
Yeah.

747
00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:37,960
that, that on average, you know what to expect from any other person you

748
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,460
encounter on the street, basically.

749
00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:40,720
And, and that's pretty nice.

750
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,990
It works as long as people are honest.

751
00:43:43,255 --> 00:43:48,075
But, when they're not, it's, it's, it's very bad.

752
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:52,980
So what made Finland a hotbed for, for the Bitcoin community early on?

753
00:43:52,980 --> 00:43:56,460
Because it, it wasn't, it wasn't just you, there was local bitcoins,

754
00:43:56,490 --> 00:43:59,190
there's, um, mining stuff going on.

755
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,261
What do you think was the factor on that?

756
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,350
I don't know technology post Nokia.

757
00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:10,950
I guess that was around the time when Nokia started losing to Apple.

758
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:11,440
I don't know.

759
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:15,929
Well, that's an interesting theory, and actually that's a theory why Finland

760
00:44:15,929 --> 00:44:20,859
has such a big video game industry as well, is that it was a post Nokia thing.

761
00:44:20,859 --> 00:44:23,939
It's really interesting how that's affected the country, and in the cyber

762
00:44:23,939 --> 00:44:27,949
security industry, nearly everyone who has been in the industry long enough

763
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:30,394
was, worked at Nokia at the time.

764
00:44:30,834 --> 00:44:31,404
Some point.

765
00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:31,879
Yeah.

766
00:44:31,879 --> 00:44:36,619
And demo scene is as well, um, credited for the game industry.

767
00:44:36,969 --> 00:44:42,849
What's the, the, the, sats, uh, snake, uh, competition called again?

768
00:44:43,214 --> 00:44:44,194
Chain duel?

769
00:44:44,259 --> 00:44:45,419
Chain Duel, yeah, yeah.

770
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:49,719
That wouldn't have been a thing if it wasn't for the Nokia 3310, right?

771
00:44:49,759 --> 00:44:53,909
Because that's, that, that phone sort of popularized the snake game.

772
00:44:54,969 --> 00:44:56,969
Wasn't that where it sort of started?

773
00:44:57,054 --> 00:44:57,454
Sure,

774
00:44:57,469 --> 00:44:58,549
The snake hype.

775
00:44:59,439 --> 00:44:59,949
yeah, yeah.

776
00:45:00,164 --> 00:45:04,754
But was there, was there, like, um, uh, something that, not just the

777
00:45:04,754 --> 00:45:09,374
technology side, like, something about understanding the money side of

778
00:45:09,374 --> 00:45:11,184
things or the solution to the problem?

779
00:45:12,028 --> 00:45:17,528
I don't really know if there's anything, anything, uh, in that, that regard.

780
00:45:18,038 --> 00:45:22,558
Like if you think about Prague, they have a history with Soviet Union.

781
00:45:22,963 --> 00:45:26,663
Like they, they don't, East Europe doesn't have the same naivety as

782
00:45:27,053 --> 00:45:29,233
maybe Scandinavia or Finland has.

783
00:45:29,428 --> 00:45:30,138
Exactly.

784
00:45:30,503 --> 00:45:33,433
Although, although Finland with with its own history,

785
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:34,233
we, Yeah,

786
00:45:34,233 --> 00:45:34,413
we

787
00:45:34,413 --> 00:45:36,953
have our own history, but it's a bit different.

788
00:45:36,983 --> 00:45:41,723
We never like purged the Soviets from the government that occupied it

789
00:45:41,783 --> 00:45:46,523
after we fell under Soviet influence to some extent after the war.

790
00:45:46,738 --> 00:45:48,378
No, you never, you never let them in.

791
00:45:49,463 --> 00:45:53,493
Well, there's still the social Democrats, the old

792
00:45:53,493 --> 00:45:54,293
communists in the

793
00:45:54,293 --> 00:45:54,723
government.

794
00:45:55,439 --> 00:45:56,209
that's interesting.

795
00:45:56,209 --> 00:46:00,389
I mean, I don't I don't mean for myself personally to paint a picture of that.

796
00:46:00,389 --> 00:46:03,779
I think I think it's a perfect place, but I do think it's I do

797
00:46:03,779 --> 00:46:08,689
think it's a great place to live if you can manage the unique things.

798
00:46:09,019 --> 00:46:11,979
And I'm also interested now in I'm interested in.

799
00:46:12,789 --> 00:46:16,529
Bitcoin adoption in Finland, because there are a lot of things in the

800
00:46:16,529 --> 00:46:19,249
way of Bitcoin adoption currently.

801
00:46:19,249 --> 00:46:22,139
I don't think that, I don't think this is unique in Europe, but the capital

802
00:46:22,139 --> 00:46:25,529
gains tax is stupidly high in Finland.

803
00:46:25,529 --> 00:46:26,999
It's like 30 percent on anything.

804
00:46:27,009 --> 00:46:28,399
It's not unique to Bitcoin.

805
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:33,689
Uh, the VAT is just going up as well, and that's, and that's Just going to

806
00:46:33,689 --> 00:46:37,869
make all businesses harder to run, but, but then again, we've got, uh,

807
00:46:37,899 --> 00:46:42,089
Bitcoin mining is starting to become a bigger thing in, in Finland, uh,

808
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:44,739
there, there's a bunch of companies that are coming in and, and all this.

809
00:46:44,749 --> 00:46:49,449
So, I mean, are, are you, are you involved much in, in sort of the, the

810
00:46:49,449 --> 00:46:52,109
local scene adoption in, in Finland?

811
00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:56,749
No, I'm not actually very much involved with the Bitcoin scene in Finland.

812
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:58,789
Will be interesting to see.

813
00:46:59,504 --> 00:47:04,844
Um, if Bitcoin starts changing or affecting the politics anytime soon.

814
00:47:05,887 --> 00:47:10,437
Yeah, the, the irony and the downside to things working so good.

815
00:47:10,832 --> 00:47:15,122
Is that maybe Finland is one of the last places for it to pick up with

816
00:47:15,422 --> 00:47:17,282
any institutional level, right?

817
00:47:17,652 --> 00:47:18,632
The individuals.

818
00:47:18,722 --> 00:47:19,042
Yeah.

819
00:47:19,292 --> 00:47:23,732
but maybe if we get some industry, maybe if we got some,

820
00:47:23,732 --> 00:47:26,342
like our own micro strategy in,

821
00:47:27,162 --> 00:47:31,012
Yeah, and I think it also has to do with what's happening in other countries.

822
00:47:31,012 --> 00:47:36,202
Like, like right now, it's hard to see that the Scandinavian countries would ever

823
00:47:36,202 --> 00:47:41,862
get, like, we'll ever see institutional adoption, adoption of Bitcoin, but like,

824
00:47:42,872 --> 00:47:48,252
the world around Scandinavia changes and, and, uh, we can't, they can't

825
00:47:48,282 --> 00:47:50,862
like, like, ignore reality for too long.

826
00:47:51,352 --> 00:47:55,732
yeah, I guess maybe climate could be one of our advantages.

827
00:47:55,762 --> 00:47:57,412
Like we need heating in the North

828
00:47:57,432 --> 00:47:57,702
Yeah.

829
00:47:58,362 --> 00:47:59,292
that could be done with Bitcoin.

830
00:47:59,862 --> 00:48:00,532
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

831
00:48:01,412 --> 00:48:02,612
Good, good angle.

832
00:48:02,772 --> 00:48:02,942
Yeah.

833
00:48:02,942 --> 00:48:04,092
A bunch of companies doing that.

834
00:48:04,092 --> 00:48:05,212
I think it's genius.

835
00:48:05,382 --> 00:48:08,092
The, the problem I can't get my head around and we should talk to

836
00:48:08,092 --> 00:48:10,942
someone about this is, is, well, what do you do in the summer?

837
00:48:12,522 --> 00:48:16,062
Do you just turn, do you just turn the Bitcoin miners off or run a,

838
00:48:16,537 --> 00:48:19,947
At a loss, does the power company have to keep, or no, sorry, the

839
00:48:20,477 --> 00:48:24,097
district heating company still need to keep buying your, your power?

840
00:48:24,097 --> 00:48:26,097
Like, what's the, what's the idea?

841
00:48:26,342 --> 00:48:28,432
You hit the swimming pools and spas,

842
00:48:28,842 --> 00:48:29,652
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

843
00:48:29,777 --> 00:48:30,287
There we go.

844
00:48:31,202 --> 00:48:31,347
The Mi

845
00:48:31,387 --> 00:48:32,327
the lakes, yes, heat

846
00:48:32,357 --> 00:48:32,707
Lakes.

847
00:48:32,707 --> 00:48:32,972
You can, yeah.

848
00:48:32,972 --> 00:48:33,992
The mining pools.

849
00:48:34,142 --> 00:48:34,322
Yeah.

850
00:48:34,907 --> 00:48:36,027
,  mining pools,

851
00:48:38,227 --> 00:48:38,947
Good joke.

852
00:48:40,477 --> 00:48:42,917
Maybe we should, um, turn back to Nostr a little bit.

853
00:48:42,917 --> 00:48:45,717
So, so we've scratched the surface, but, but, uh, yeah, what, what

854
00:48:45,877 --> 00:48:47,367
are you working on right now?

855
00:48:47,367 --> 00:48:49,567
And I mean, specifically, what's, what's the.

856
00:48:49,642 --> 00:48:54,822
Uh, at the Iris Snort, um, what do you call it?

857
00:48:55,132 --> 00:48:56,292
Partnership or whatever it is.

858
00:48:56,322 --> 00:48:57,122
What are you working on?

859
00:48:57,782 --> 00:49:00,542
Yeah, so for the past few months I haven't actually worked

860
00:49:00,542 --> 00:49:02,452
on the social side too much.

861
00:49:02,952 --> 00:49:05,912
I've done like iris docs, docs.

862
00:49:06,332 --> 00:49:06,972
iris.

863
00:49:07,332 --> 00:49:10,122
2 is like a Google Docs alternative.

864
00:49:10,552 --> 00:49:14,672
I don't recommend it yet, but it's like, it's a prototype at this point.

865
00:49:15,262 --> 00:49:19,442
And also I made like, um, if you're a developer, you can type in the console,

866
00:49:19,712 --> 00:49:26,652
npm create iris, it will give you a template, uh, for a react application,

867
00:49:26,682 --> 00:49:30,972
web application, uh, that, uh, for Nostr with all the basic building blocks

868
00:49:30,972 --> 00:49:33,222
like login and avatars and whatever.

869
00:49:33,852 --> 00:49:38,182
Um, and, uh, for the past few months, uh, for the past month,

870
00:49:38,222 --> 00:49:41,072
I've, um, uh, been helping a team.

871
00:49:41,342 --> 00:49:45,942
that is pursuing a bounty on a github on Nostr.

872
00:49:46,522 --> 00:49:52,692
So Jack Dorsey is offering a 10 bitcoin bounty for a github replacement on Nostr.

873
00:49:53,082 --> 00:49:55,942
So I've been helping a team that is trying to do that.

874
00:49:55,942 --> 00:49:56,802
Yeah,

875
00:49:56,842 --> 00:49:57,052
Yeah.

876
00:49:57,052 --> 00:49:57,952
That's super cool.

877
00:49:58,042 --> 00:50:02,812
So the, the, the big GitHub was bought by Microsoft, was it?

878
00:50:03,412 --> 00:50:03,622
Yeah.

879
00:50:03,622 --> 00:50:05,122
Yeah, yeah.

880
00:50:05,122 --> 00:50:06,082
There's a danger there.

881
00:50:06,650 --> 00:50:11,410
yeah, git is just, as a protocol, it's a little bit decentralized already.

882
00:50:11,420 --> 00:50:14,490
You have a repository on your local computer already.

883
00:50:14,550 --> 00:50:17,630
You can always Run your own server and push it there.

884
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:19,340
Use multiple servers.

885
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:19,940
All right.

886
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,590
This is another interesting area, actually.

887
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,170
So, yeah, local computer, um, running a node, the cloud, all of these things.

888
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,080
We've, we've, um, we've gotten, uh, we've really started, like, uh,

889
00:50:31,850 --> 00:50:36,210
there are a lot of great nodes, um, node in a box, uh, companies and

890
00:50:36,210 --> 00:50:37,970
stuff, but we really like Start9, uh,

891
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:44,000
Yeah, it's like everything for everything you want to run on your own.

892
00:50:44,005 --> 00:50:48,775
exactly, yeah, their mindset is great, this sort of sovereign computing thing,

893
00:50:48,775 --> 00:50:56,885
like running your own server node to run all the things, like, is this a big

894
00:50:56,885 --> 00:51:04,065
component of sort of being a full part of the Bitcoin Nostr ecosystem, running

895
00:51:04,065 --> 00:51:08,360
a node and stuff Taking your own data yourself, hosting your data yourself.

896
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:10,560
Yeah, it's good.

897
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,710
But I don't think that's what everyone's gonna be doing.

898
00:51:13,950 --> 00:51:17,190
I think we need to have all that stuff on your phone in your pocket.

899
00:51:17,250 --> 00:51:19,890
That's how everyone could do it.

900
00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:26,210
So does this create sort of a, a, almost like a relay layer approach because,

901
00:51:26,340 --> 00:51:30,130
uh, I guess the idea is the number of Bitcoin node runners is vastly less

902
00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:34,230
than the number of Bitcoin users, hodlers or whatever you call them.

903
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,560
Uh, and the number of Nostr users is vastly less than

904
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,570
the number of relays, right?

905
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:44,810
Uh, and so is this sort of a related thing, like it sort of creates a

906
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:47,840
new layer of the cloud, basically?

907
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,200
Someone else's computer, but it's slightly closer to the user?

908
00:51:52,167 --> 00:51:58,637
Yeah, I mean, it's uh, it's a good idea to, um, host your own stuff.

909
00:51:59,887 --> 00:52:00,727
I just wonder if.

910
00:52:01,527 --> 00:52:03,867
Um, if the layman is going to be doing that.

911
00:52:05,097 --> 00:52:07,567
Well, what's the melee quote?

912
00:52:07,587 --> 00:52:12,717
Like, it's more important to awaken the lions than to shepherd

913
00:52:12,727 --> 00:52:15,827
the sheep or herd the sheep.

914
00:52:17,177 --> 00:52:20,807
Yeah, but I guess another angle to this though, right, is that, is

915
00:52:20,817 --> 00:52:27,855
that, for example, if I were wanting to host my own git, The issue turns

916
00:52:27,855 --> 00:52:32,045
into that, okay, well, I've got my computer and I, if I'm able to connect

917
00:52:32,045 --> 00:52:33,925
to my computer, I can, I can use it.

918
00:52:33,955 --> 00:52:38,075
People can connect to it all this, but then there's no redundancy, right?

919
00:52:38,155 --> 00:52:39,125
It's my computer.

920
00:52:39,165 --> 00:52:43,445
And if that computer If that goes down, then there's nothing.

921
00:52:43,445 --> 00:52:46,025
There's, there's, there's a problem there, right?

922
00:52:46,515 --> 00:52:53,205
Is this, my, my understanding a little bit is that the relay thing starts to solve

923
00:52:53,205 --> 00:52:57,525
this redundancy problem a little bit by, by relaying it throughout the network.

924
00:52:57,525 --> 00:53:02,292
You can just Pick up back again, basically, even from the Nostr side

925
00:53:02,292 --> 00:53:06,142
of it, you can set up your own relay and request all of your old, uh,

926
00:53:06,332 --> 00:53:09,712
uh, notes and, and all this, and then basically get all of your data

927
00:53:09,712 --> 00:53:11,112
back yourself, something like that.

928
00:53:11,247 --> 00:53:12,587
Yeah, that makes sense.

929
00:53:12,617 --> 00:53:18,187
Like content addressed file storage, like BitTorrent content is addressed by

930
00:53:18,547 --> 00:53:22,567
the actual content and not the network location, which will change over time.

931
00:53:22,967 --> 00:53:27,807
So with content addressing, you can store it in multiple locations

932
00:53:27,837 --> 00:53:30,017
and download from multiple peers.

933
00:53:30,737 --> 00:53:37,637
I think a crucial part of this is teaching honeypots, like

934
00:53:37,637 --> 00:53:39,077
having too much data stored.

935
00:53:39,952 --> 00:53:45,072
Somewhere, uh, there was a great story from, uh, that I heard someone told me, I

936
00:53:45,072 --> 00:53:50,752
don't remember whom, but in, um, Amsterdam last year about, uh, a village in, in

937
00:53:50,762 --> 00:53:56,152
Holland where, like, like all the villages had a voluntary voluntary Like, accounting

938
00:53:56,152 --> 00:54:01,362
of the population, so you're filled in a form with, like, height and shoe size

939
00:54:01,412 --> 00:54:07,532
and, uh, religion, uh, and, uh, they were storing it in the, mostly in the churches

940
00:54:07,582 --> 00:54:09,922
in every little one horse town in Holland.

941
00:54:10,727 --> 00:54:13,817
And then, of course, when the Nazis came, they went there and, you

942
00:54:13,817 --> 00:54:17,877
know, looked up all the Jews and sent out Hans Landa to catch them.

943
00:54:18,277 --> 00:54:23,157
And, but in this particular village, uh, where this guy was from, his

944
00:54:23,157 --> 00:54:27,387
father had burned down the house where they stored the documents.

945
00:54:27,457 --> 00:54:29,767
I don't think it was the church, but it was like, like

946
00:54:29,767 --> 00:54:30,727
some warehouse or something.

947
00:54:30,727 --> 00:54:34,087
So, when the Nazis came, it just burned down the honeypot.

948
00:54:34,397 --> 00:54:36,367
And they had like 40 percent more documents.

949
00:54:36,942 --> 00:54:39,792
Holocaust survivors there because they couldn't catch them.

950
00:54:40,202 --> 00:54:43,582
So that's, that's the thing with honey, but it's such a great illustration

951
00:54:43,582 --> 00:54:49,272
of what, what the dangers are with these like, uh, single entities

952
00:54:49,272 --> 00:54:50,942
that hold people's information.

953
00:54:51,802 --> 00:54:55,992
Um, yeah, I, I think people are so unaware of the risks with that

954
00:54:56,823 --> 00:54:58,013
What do you think is the solution?

955
00:54:58,023 --> 00:55:04,353
Because, because data is sort of freeing us, the digital revolution,

956
00:55:04,353 --> 00:55:08,543
and being able to use data to, to enhance our own capabilities.

957
00:55:08,553 --> 00:55:08,743
A.

958
00:55:08,743 --> 00:55:09,083
I.

959
00:55:09,768 --> 00:55:14,068
Being an example of this, to the extent that AI is actually useful,

960
00:55:14,498 --> 00:55:17,728
it does simplify a lot of things.

961
00:55:17,788 --> 00:55:21,208
You can ask the AI, how do I do this?

962
00:55:21,528 --> 00:55:24,488
And it can give you step by step instructions how to do

963
00:55:24,488 --> 00:55:26,298
something and save a lot of time.

964
00:55:26,593 --> 00:55:34,203
But by giving the AI your data, that puts yourself at risk.

965
00:55:35,063 --> 00:55:42,383
Putting your data on a cloud service, it's convenient to download it, but you've

966
00:55:42,383 --> 00:55:44,573
given all your data to someone else.

967
00:55:45,183 --> 00:55:48,723
Do you have any idea, is there a solution here in Nosterland?

968
00:55:48,723 --> 00:55:48,953
And

969
00:55:49,733 --> 00:55:54,193
Um, well, I hope we're going to be moving to edge computing, like it's

970
00:55:54,233 --> 00:55:59,563
happening on your own devices, phones, or devices instead of the cloud.

971
00:56:00,833 --> 00:56:06,493
I hope maybe Apple, Apple is taking that direction, maybe to some

972
00:56:06,493 --> 00:56:12,203
extent, like, um, already some models are running on your iPhone.

973
00:56:13,489 --> 00:56:17,749
yes, I would much rather run the AI on my own devices than the cloud.

974
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:27,835
so, so, what are the things that you would suggest that a typical Uh, layman or user

975
00:56:27,835 --> 00:56:32,915
of these technologies, uh, work to do now, what are some best practices in your view?

976
00:56:34,940 --> 00:56:35,850
For AI or,

977
00:56:36,105 --> 00:56:39,025
To, to stay private, um, to, to,

978
00:56:39,070 --> 00:56:40,440
self sovereignty in general.

979
00:56:40,475 --> 00:56:41,695
for self sovereignty, yeah.

980
00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:45,680
well, use Nostr and Bitcoin.

981
00:56:46,060 --> 00:56:52,230
Um, if there's small, even small steps to improve your privacy, like using

982
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:54,840
encrypted cloud storage or something,

983
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:03,770
I guess it could exponentially like lower your footprint, surveillance footprint.

984
00:57:04,060 --> 00:57:05,820
Yeah, surveillance footprint.

985
00:57:05,820 --> 00:57:07,360
We don't want that.

986
00:57:08,555 --> 00:57:09,625
No, we don't want that.

987
00:57:10,245 --> 00:57:15,675
So what's, what's the, um, what are you most excited about with Nostr?

988
00:57:16,606 --> 00:57:17,756
Well, it's interesting that.

989
00:57:18,976 --> 00:57:25,926
Nostr is really the only, only public key based, uh, decentralized network,

990
00:57:26,006 --> 00:57:27,986
because it's not like rocket science.

991
00:57:29,666 --> 00:57:32,086
It opens up so, so many possibilities.

992
00:57:32,086 --> 00:57:38,036
We can, We could basically decentralize all the platforms to be trusty

993
00:57:38,066 --> 00:57:40,876
third parties, no points of failure.

994
00:57:42,296 --> 00:57:44,146
I'm really quite bullish on it.

995
00:57:44,926 --> 00:57:48,326
It's a MeTube rather than YouTube.

996
00:57:49,341 --> 00:57:50,041
It's a good joke.

997
00:57:51,921 --> 00:57:54,261
How would that, how would that work in practice in the sense of that

998
00:57:54,981 --> 00:57:59,451
anywhere where you still need a sort of centralized server to work, right?

999
00:57:59,791 --> 00:58:06,181
Well, okay, the centralized services, a lot of them work because, uh,

1000
00:58:06,461 --> 00:58:11,001
because they can centralize the decision making and keep everything

1001
00:58:11,001 --> 00:58:13,181
in one place and it's convenient.

1002
00:58:13,191 --> 00:58:15,791
You give, you give up, you give up sovereignty for convenience.

1003
00:58:16,401 --> 00:58:19,846
How does that work in a world where the identities are central?

1004
00:58:19,846 --> 00:58:22,691
What I'm trying to say is that most people are, uh, decentralized.

1005
00:58:22,691 --> 00:58:27,426
Would you still need the centralized service, but interact with it

1006
00:58:27,426 --> 00:58:29,546
with the decentralized identity?

1007
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,980
Yeah, I mean, you could use Nostr in different configurations.

1008
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:39,380
There could even be, you could only connect to one, one relay.

1009
00:58:40,220 --> 00:58:43,010
If you want, but you can always change it afterwards.

1010
00:58:44,410 --> 00:58:47,700
It's always better to be more decentralized.

1011
00:58:48,319 --> 00:58:51,149
Okay, YouTube as an example.

1012
00:58:51,389 --> 00:58:56,189
Say YouTube, um, changes it so that you can, you can watch YouTube,

1013
00:58:56,379 --> 00:59:00,339
have a YouTube account with, with a Nostr public key, right?

1014
00:59:00,609 --> 00:59:07,989
But YouTube could still say, your account gets banned if you do the wrong things.

1015
00:59:08,349 --> 00:59:12,369
Well, you could, theoretically, you could store the videos locally, right?

1016
00:59:12,369 --> 00:59:15,779
And then connect peer to peer and watch them instead of having them on a server.

1017
00:59:16,179 --> 00:59:16,499
Yeah.

1018
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:20,919
Like, um, file storage is, um, a hot topic on Nostr

1019
00:59:20,969 --> 00:59:21,439
right now,

1020
00:59:21,439 --> 00:59:24,729
because right now Nostr is only for textual content and,

1021
00:59:24,729 --> 00:59:26,639
uh, media files are typically.

1022
00:59:26,969 --> 00:59:30,059
Hosted by normal HTTP hosts

1023
00:59:30,089 --> 00:59:32,379
servers somewhere by normal URLs.

1024
00:59:32,799 --> 00:59:35,969
I need, I think we need to decentralize that in some way.

1025
00:59:36,619 --> 00:59:40,509
Um, I mean, media servers, they are like a moderation liability.

1026
00:59:40,559 --> 00:59:41,599
They're quite expensive.

1027
00:59:41,659 --> 00:59:46,359
Imagine if you upload this podcast somewhere, two hours, um, it's

1028
00:59:46,359 --> 00:59:47,849
going to be expensive to host.

1029
00:59:48,294 --> 00:59:50,414
And their peer to peer could help.

1030
00:59:51,389 --> 00:59:53,919
That's why we broke Nostr when we published my book on it.

1031
00:59:54,394 --> 00:59:55,294
Did you hear about this?

1032
00:59:55,484 --> 00:59:55,764
No?

1033
00:59:55,789 --> 00:59:59,169
think I told you breakfast yesterday, like, so that's how we met Miljan.

1034
00:59:59,489 --> 01:00:03,869
We were at this fancy rooftop cocktail party in Madeira, and he walks up to

1035
01:00:03,879 --> 01:00:05,539
me and is like, uh, you're Knut, right?

1036
01:00:05,939 --> 01:00:06,869
And I'm like, yeah.

1037
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:08,919
Oh, you broke my Nostr client.

1038
01:00:09,469 --> 01:00:09,819
So it

1039
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:11,689
turns out that, oh, did I?

1040
01:00:12,789 --> 01:00:14,729
Did I unlock an achievement on the internet?

1041
01:00:14,739 --> 01:00:20,304
Like, because we decided to, uh, Publish my entire first book, just copy the

1042
01:00:20,314 --> 01:00:24,704
text file and put it as a single post on Nostr, because just because we could.

1043
01:00:25,634 --> 01:00:26,904
And apparently that broke

1044
01:00:26,994 --> 01:00:27,154
think

1045
01:00:27,154 --> 01:00:30,854
that even fits in a Nostr event, like many relays limit the size

1046
01:00:30,854 --> 01:00:32,794
to 60 kilobytes or whatever.

1047
01:00:33,054 --> 01:00:37,784
But I think that was the problem that they didn't, uh, before, before that happened.

1048
01:00:38,284 --> 01:00:39,124
Yeah, something like that.

1049
01:00:39,124 --> 01:00:40,459
The idea of

1050
01:00:40,459 --> 01:00:40,904
a

1051
01:00:40,984 --> 01:00:41,754
ask him about it.

1052
01:00:41,814 --> 01:00:42,144
Yeah.

1053
01:00:42,384 --> 01:00:43,034
Exactly.

1054
01:00:43,094 --> 01:00:49,604
He says there's a spec for a long form note, but the whole idea was just to

1055
01:00:49,754 --> 01:00:51,274
post the whole damn thing so that it's

1056
01:00:51,824 --> 01:00:51,994
Yeah.

1057
01:00:52,179 --> 01:00:54,259
out there information, right?

1058
01:00:54,959 --> 01:00:55,619
But, But

1059
01:00:55,629 --> 01:00:57,719
yeah, I guess it didn't

1060
01:00:57,719 --> 01:00:58,219
scale.

1061
01:00:58,439 --> 01:01:01,979
Yeah, maybe it's a bit technical, but I think Nostr Web of Trust

1062
01:01:01,999 --> 01:01:03,889
can help finding the content.

1063
01:01:03,889 --> 01:01:08,989
So when you address content by its content hash, um, you don't have the

1064
01:01:09,019 --> 01:01:11,249
URL, the locator part in the network.

1065
01:01:11,289 --> 01:01:15,089
But I think Nostr, it's a bit technical, but Nostr can help there.

1066
01:01:15,119 --> 01:01:19,669
You can like, um, find out where the author keeps their media files and

1067
01:01:19,679 --> 01:01:21,189
locate it on the network that way.

1068
01:01:22,219 --> 01:01:26,939
Is there anything as far as that, sort of, maybe relays or something else would,

1069
01:01:26,959 --> 01:01:32,139
would come to the rescue in terms of being this sort of layer in the middle?

1070
01:01:32,179 --> 01:01:37,004
It's not, it's not YouTube, but it's, it's something in the

1071
01:01:37,004 --> 01:01:39,764
middle where the videos can live.

1072
01:01:39,764 --> 01:01:41,724
And, but maybe they are, they live in more than one place

1073
01:01:41,744 --> 01:01:43,814
because back to the redundancy.

1074
01:01:43,814 --> 01:01:45,424
I think that's, that's always the thing.

1075
01:01:45,424 --> 01:01:46,704
If you have it only on the edge.

1076
01:01:47,309 --> 01:01:51,489
Right, and it's not distributed, and I mean literally distributed, in more

1077
01:01:51,489 --> 01:01:55,549
than one node, more than one edge node, that node goes down, the content

1078
01:01:55,574 --> 01:02:01,024
Yeah, yeah, I imagine like if there's a media file that is less popular

1079
01:02:01,224 --> 01:02:06,074
than it, um, that might be exist only in a few places, then I guess

1080
01:02:06,204 --> 01:02:08,434
servers can be useful in that case.

1081
01:02:08,459 --> 01:02:10,149
Is this the reinvention of BitTorrent?

1082
01:02:11,070 --> 01:02:16,290
yeah, maybe we need a little bit improved version of BitTorrent, like

1083
01:02:16,530 --> 01:02:20,990
BitTorrent works for popular files like movies, but if you're gonna put

1084
01:02:20,990 --> 01:02:25,080
your whole file system on it, then BitTorrent is not good for that.

1085
01:02:26,405 --> 01:02:27,769
Yeah,

1086
01:02:27,935 --> 01:02:31,995
interesting to see how this is going to develop, I mean, I love that the ideas

1087
01:02:32,055 --> 01:02:36,395
are being discussed though, because It would be an amazing solution to be

1088
01:02:36,395 --> 01:02:41,585
able to, to self, self sovereignly, host content and, and keep data backed

1089
01:02:41,585 --> 01:02:45,975
up and, and all this, it just, the, the, I think the skeptical parts that

1090
01:02:45,975 --> 01:02:48,885
we've had in discussions is first of all this, first of all, the scaling,

1091
01:02:49,335 --> 01:02:54,495
does it actually work to, to run an US relay in a, in a way that's economical.

1092
01:02:55,305 --> 01:02:55,545
Yeah.

1093
01:02:55,605 --> 01:02:59,155
So I think still some debate about to what degree is it, is

1094
01:02:59,155 --> 01:03:00,865
it possible to, to, do that?

1095
01:03:00,865 --> 01:03:02,485
But the, but the other thing for me is that just.

1096
01:03:02,905 --> 01:03:07,755
Uh, how does it work in practice to, to completely take away

1097
01:03:07,785 --> 01:03:11,895
these central services that we've started to rely upon, right?

1098
01:03:11,905 --> 01:03:15,735
And again, this, this comes back to, this isn't a problem.

1099
01:03:16,415 --> 01:03:18,504
until it becomes a problem.

1100
01:03:18,585 --> 01:03:21,565
It's fine, the centralized services all work until they decide that

1101
01:03:21,565 --> 01:03:25,795
you're not a person that they want to do business with anymore.

1102
01:03:26,395 --> 01:03:28,575
And so distributing that becomes the problem.

1103
01:03:28,605 --> 01:03:31,215
So these are still questions.

1104
01:03:31,275 --> 01:03:33,995
I don't know, no exact question there, but yeah, any thoughts still?

1105
01:03:34,250 --> 01:03:38,580
I guess IPFS has been trying to tackle some of these issues for a long time.

1106
01:03:39,910 --> 01:03:41,880
It's not simple, but I hope we're getting

1107
01:03:42,165 --> 01:03:43,515
What, what's IPFS?

1108
01:03:43,635 --> 01:03:43,815
Uh,

1109
01:03:43,930 --> 01:03:44,130
So

1110
01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:46,620
interplanetary file system.

1111
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:53,240
It's basically a distributed network for content addressed files and directories.

1112
01:03:53,952 --> 01:03:57,952
yeah, it's, it's sort of like the David Goliath scenario with the state,

1113
01:03:58,022 --> 01:04:03,842
like, uh, the, the, uh, the smaller protocols battling, battling the

1114
01:04:04,012 --> 01:04:07,122
conglomerates of, of Silicon Valley.

1115
01:04:08,047 --> 01:04:11,317
Yeah, I, again, I'm just, I'm just glad that, that there's people out there

1116
01:04:11,377 --> 01:04:15,487
looking for the solutions to make this so much more because, because it's great

1117
01:04:15,517 --> 01:04:20,097
that this is, that this is solving the problem of text, just text communication.

1118
01:04:20,097 --> 01:04:21,405
The, the Twitter replacement.

1119
01:04:21,732 --> 01:04:21,902
and

1120
01:04:21,902 --> 01:04:22,555
social graph.

1121
01:04:23,742 --> 01:04:26,092
But just like, just like people are unaware of the

1122
01:04:26,092 --> 01:04:28,752
problems of inflation, mostly.

1123
01:04:29,027 --> 01:04:33,737
And, uh, they are unaware of the problems of, of, uh, data centralization,

1124
01:04:33,747 --> 01:04:37,137
like, uh, it's, it's, uh, most people just don't care about this stuff.

1125
01:04:39,047 --> 01:04:40,037
No, apparently not.

1126
01:04:40,212 --> 01:04:44,517
And what about on the, the, the bitcoin front, the sort of interconnection

1127
01:04:44,517 --> 01:04:46,707
of Noster and, and bitcoin?

1128
01:04:47,362 --> 01:04:52,242
Uh, I guess, what's the, what's the role of, of Bitcoin in all this?

1129
01:04:52,632 --> 01:04:56,942
Yeah, well for some reason all of the Nostr users seem to be bitcoiners.

1130
01:04:57,497 --> 01:05:02,957
Well, there's, there's normies as well, but yeah, maybe it's the

1131
01:05:02,957 --> 01:05:04,447
similarity permissionlessness.

1132
01:05:05,737 --> 01:05:09,747
Um, also Bitcoin is, Lightning is pretty much integrated with

1133
01:05:09,757 --> 01:05:12,297
all the popular Nostr clients.

1134
01:05:12,307 --> 01:05:18,617
So you can zap, you can tip for posts with lightning and it's quite unique.

1135
01:05:18,637 --> 01:05:19,017
Really.

1136
01:05:19,547 --> 01:05:23,227
I don't think Twitter is ever going to be able to implement something

1137
01:05:23,227 --> 01:05:25,517
like that because of KYC and whatever.

1138
01:05:26,617 --> 01:05:32,587
No, no, and, uh, yeah, so, uh, at least use Nostr in parallel to whatever social

1139
01:05:32,597 --> 01:05:37,822
media account you're on, because, like, uh, It's, um, it's hard to move from

1140
01:05:37,822 --> 01:05:41,822
one social media platform to another because if you're a content creator,

1141
01:05:41,822 --> 01:05:46,072
because you have all your following there, so it's a, the exodus can be

1142
01:05:46,252 --> 01:05:51,132
tough, but like the, the sooner you start up your Nostr thing, the, the easier

1143
01:05:51,132 --> 01:05:57,542
the transition will be when, when you eventually, when you're eventually forced

1144
01:05:57,572 --> 01:05:59,547
out of whatever platform you, you're on.

1145
01:05:59,947 --> 01:06:00,457
You're on.

1146
01:06:00,617 --> 01:06:04,147
And I hope we're going to have better cross posting tools so you

1147
01:06:04,187 --> 01:06:08,367
can make a post and easily publish it on all the relevant platforms.

1148
01:06:08,377 --> 01:06:08,727
Yeah.

1149
01:06:09,377 --> 01:06:11,277
Of course, Twitter doesn't want that.

1150
01:06:11,327 --> 01:06:11,607
They.

1151
01:06:11,902 --> 01:06:14,792
They don't want any integration with others, they want to keep their

1152
01:06:14,792 --> 01:06:15,622
network, but

1153
01:06:15,672 --> 01:06:18,032
maybe we can work around it one way or the other.

1154
01:06:18,087 --> 01:06:22,192
I heard an interesting theory about, like, I had a conversation with

1155
01:06:22,192 --> 01:06:24,697
Giacomo about Nostr versus Twitter.

1156
01:06:25,172 --> 01:06:28,032
And it's like, uh, everyone's saying that Nostr is so much

1157
01:06:28,042 --> 01:06:29,702
better because there's no drama.

1158
01:06:29,942 --> 01:06:31,772
It's like, everyone's friendly on Nostr.

1159
01:06:32,022 --> 01:06:35,492
And he was like, yeah, but that's sort of why I'm on Twitter.

1160
01:06:36,692 --> 01:06:41,622
Because, like, someone's wrong on the internet, and you immediately attack it.

1161
01:06:41,622 --> 01:06:44,782
So like, there is definitely a different culture.

1162
01:06:45,282 --> 01:06:49,852
Actually, this is, this is an interesting, um, uh, point here, the, the algorithms.

1163
01:06:50,102 --> 01:06:53,622
And so, uh, you, you were telling us earlier that, uh, Iris actually

1164
01:06:53,622 --> 01:06:55,972
does have, have algorithms now.

1165
01:06:57,192 --> 01:07:03,462
algorithm, like, um, based on the users you usually like, and the

1166
01:07:03,462 --> 01:07:08,632
people who have reacted or interacted with the same posts that you.

1167
01:07:11,527 --> 01:07:16,117
I'll say my wishlist for Nostr, just for the usability of it.

1168
01:07:16,117 --> 01:07:20,377
It doesn't have to be exactly the Twitter clone thing, but first of

1169
01:07:20,377 --> 01:07:21,687
all, this algorithm sounds great.

1170
01:07:21,947 --> 01:07:27,627
I would like that when I'm scrolling down, it can say, I've seen this

1171
01:07:27,627 --> 01:07:29,177
note, I don't want to see it

1172
01:07:29,337 --> 01:07:29,677
Yeah,

1173
01:07:29,717 --> 01:07:31,267
that's what it also does.

1174
01:07:31,417 --> 01:07:32,367
That's fantastic.

1175
01:07:32,387 --> 01:07:36,377
And then the second thing is that, yeah, that it would refresh

1176
01:07:36,577 --> 01:07:38,562
periodically A little bit.

1177
01:07:39,092 --> 01:07:44,402
Because the biggest problem is the exact latest queue is like, there's

1178
01:07:44,402 --> 01:07:46,532
just no organization to that none.

1179
01:07:47,102 --> 01:07:51,742
Uh, and the top posts of the day or even the last four hours or hour or

1180
01:07:51,882 --> 01:07:54,687
something like that It's the same posts

1181
01:07:55,277 --> 01:07:58,137
until 24 hours passes again.

1182
01:07:58,747 --> 01:08:01,057
So just something that works in the middle, I think would

1183
01:08:01,057 --> 01:08:02,917
be absolutely fantastic.

1184
01:08:02,917 --> 01:08:03,207
So

1185
01:08:03,267 --> 01:08:05,107
Yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing.

1186
01:08:05,157 --> 01:08:09,837
I'm usually updating it like once a minute and it's also mixed in some of the

1187
01:08:09,837 --> 01:08:12,187
recent posts, so it stays interesting.

1188
01:08:12,547 --> 01:08:13,777
It's working pretty well for me,

1189
01:08:13,997 --> 01:08:14,397
I think.

1190
01:08:14,902 --> 01:08:17,642
Do you guys know what an algorithm is?

1191
01:08:19,887 --> 01:08:23,717
It's, it's when you have a result that you want to get to, and you

1192
01:08:23,717 --> 01:08:27,047
write a mathematical formula that you can repeat over and over again

1193
01:08:27,167 --> 01:08:30,467
to get to that point that you already decided before you made the formula.

1194
01:08:32,447 --> 01:08:33,457
This is an actual thing.

1195
01:08:33,517 --> 01:08:34,847
It's not a, it's not a joke.

1196
01:08:34,947 --> 01:08:37,597
There's, there's an actual thing called algorithm.

1197
01:08:37,657 --> 01:08:38,297
I hadn't heard of

1198
01:08:38,297 --> 01:08:38,907
this before,

1199
01:08:39,417 --> 01:08:39,707
I know.

1200
01:08:40,667 --> 01:08:41,967
You learn something new every day.

1201
01:08:42,167 --> 01:08:43,077
something new every day.

1202
01:08:43,887 --> 01:08:44,317
No, that's great.

1203
01:08:44,317 --> 01:08:45,867
I'll have to try, uh, try Iris more.

1204
01:08:45,867 --> 01:08:49,307
I, I'd used Iris maybe six, eight months ago, a little bit more.

1205
01:08:49,307 --> 01:08:51,477
I think when it changed interfaces to snort, I sort of.

1206
01:08:51,937 --> 01:08:55,667
Got confused and, uh, I think it actually, it didn't work for a

1207
01:08:55,667 --> 01:08:57,887
while, the, the, the, the caching.

1208
01:08:57,917 --> 01:09:00,647
I had to control F5 and then, oh, it works now.

1209
01:09:00,887 --> 01:09:01,187
Yeah.

1210
01:09:01,277 --> 01:09:02,617
We need to make it faster.

1211
01:09:02,647 --> 01:09:07,757
It has a great, like a local, local relay, so it stores a lot of stuff locally.

1212
01:09:08,237 --> 01:09:10,107
And it's like a peer to peer ready.

1213
01:09:10,147 --> 01:09:13,787
We can, I've been experimenting on peer to peer already, so,

1214
01:09:14,947 --> 01:09:15,517
Very cool.

1215
01:09:15,767 --> 01:09:17,047
we just need to make it faster.

1216
01:09:17,567 --> 01:09:21,487
The, the competition between clients is, is fantastic and, and it seems like

1217
01:09:21,487 --> 01:09:22,957
it's a, it's a friendly competition.

1218
01:09:22,967 --> 01:09:27,777
Everyone is learning from each other and, uh, Primal, Primal has somewhat taken

1219
01:09:27,777 --> 01:09:29,337
the consciousness, uh, a little bit.

1220
01:09:29,337 --> 01:09:32,992
It's sort of the one that a lot of people are, uh, You know, saying

1221
01:09:32,992 --> 01:09:35,632
they're, they're using these days, but I think it's, I think it's great

1222
01:09:35,632 --> 01:09:37,152
that you can use different clients

1223
01:09:37,337 --> 01:09:37,493
Yeah.

1224
01:09:37,577 --> 01:09:38,197
It's so good

1225
01:09:38,197 --> 01:09:38,997
for the users.

1226
01:09:39,167 --> 01:09:41,747
I think that's one of the reasons why Nostr will win because

1227
01:09:41,957 --> 01:09:45,267
there's the constant battle between clients, evolution.

1228
01:09:45,567 --> 01:09:50,727
Yeah, we have, uh, been thinking a lot about this in competition in Bitcoin

1229
01:09:50,987 --> 01:09:56,677
companies specifically, and how, how, like in praxeology that differentiates

1230
01:09:56,707 --> 01:10:00,387
between biological competition and catalytic competition, right?

1231
01:10:00,627 --> 01:10:03,417
Where, where biological competition is the fang and claw.

1232
01:10:03,812 --> 01:10:07,812
A battle of nature where the, the, the strongest survive as

1233
01:10:07,812 --> 01:10:09,272
the law of the jungle, basically.

1234
01:10:09,632 --> 01:10:13,892
And catalytic competition are free markets, totally free markets, so

1235
01:10:14,232 --> 01:10:21,282
where, where both parties don't engage in the interaction unless

1236
01:10:21,312 --> 01:10:24,222
they both think they have something to win from the interaction.

1237
01:10:24,222 --> 01:10:27,502
So it's not a zero sum game, it's better for everyone, always.

1238
01:10:27,782 --> 01:10:32,492
And what we're living in today is like sort of in between Fang and Claw and

1239
01:10:32,512 --> 01:10:36,692
Catalactic because there's interventionism everywhere and there's inflation and

1240
01:10:36,692 --> 01:10:41,652
stuff, which you could categorize as more Law of the Jungle stuff, uh, winner take

1241
01:10:41,652 --> 01:10:43,792
all stuff than actual free market stuff.

1242
01:10:44,142 --> 01:10:47,827
But when you think about it on a Bitcoin standard, It's even weirder

1243
01:10:47,827 --> 01:10:53,167
than, it's even more powerful than, uh, than, than the normal free market,

1244
01:10:53,197 --> 01:10:59,182
because at least in the adoption phase, um, pre hyperbitcoinization, because

1245
01:10:59,182 --> 01:11:06,027
Bitcoiners are incentivized to, uh, and Bitcoin companies are incentivized to

1246
01:11:06,037 --> 01:11:10,017
help one another with whatever they're doing, because the success of the

1247
01:11:10,017 --> 01:11:12,117
Bitcoiner is the success of Bitcoin.

1248
01:11:12,647 --> 01:11:15,757
So, so, so we're like, we're, we're there.

1249
01:11:15,757 --> 01:11:19,957
There's, there's no, uh, uh, reason to even compete, uh, if you're.

1250
01:11:20,862 --> 01:11:24,592
Hardware wallet providers, for instance, or conference organizers,

1251
01:11:24,952 --> 01:11:31,862
there's like this weird, uh, synergy and, uh, culture of collaboration.

1252
01:11:31,892 --> 01:11:33,032
And we see it everywhere.

1253
01:11:33,062 --> 01:11:35,032
Like we see these effects more and more.

1254
01:11:35,032 --> 01:11:39,982
And I think like Nostr is, is very similar and open source development in

1255
01:11:39,982 --> 01:11:45,922
general, that people want to, want to see the other, the other guys succeed.

1256
01:11:46,527 --> 01:11:48,297
Yeah, it's true.

1257
01:11:48,512 --> 01:11:49,802
There's no backstabbing,

1258
01:11:50,387 --> 01:11:50,737
Yeah.

1259
01:11:50,972 --> 01:11:52,522
in the same way as in Fiatland.

1260
01:11:52,932 --> 01:11:53,172
Yeah.

1261
01:11:53,172 --> 01:11:55,852
It's, it's great to see maybe, maybe we can, um, yeah, touch

1262
01:11:55,852 --> 01:11:59,342
on our lovely hosts here, the reason we're all in the same room.

1263
01:11:59,342 --> 01:12:02,892
Although, although, yeah, this is, this is one of the cases where we could have

1264
01:12:02,892 --> 01:12:07,152
actually done this from, uh, from, you know, another location a lot more easily.

1265
01:12:07,352 --> 01:12:11,002
Knut would have to come to Finland, but, uh, you know, maybe next time

1266
01:12:11,002 --> 01:12:14,232
we'll, we'll, uh, do it from the, the oldie library or something like that.

1267
01:12:14,305 --> 01:12:14,952
Uh, one of the rooms

1268
01:12:15,022 --> 01:12:15,922
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see.

1269
01:12:15,922 --> 01:12:16,052
Yeah,

1270
01:12:16,432 --> 01:12:16,452
yeah,

1271
01:12:16,577 --> 01:12:17,397
a sauna rip, yeah.

1272
01:12:17,522 --> 01:12:18,332
No, from Riga!

1273
01:12:19,067 --> 01:12:19,307
Well,

1274
01:12:19,307 --> 01:12:20,697
yeah, I guess so, I guess so.

1275
01:12:20,827 --> 01:12:26,467
And it occurred to me, because we also have the heavy metal in common, and so

1276
01:12:26,837 --> 01:12:30,717
this is another case where we could do a heavy metal only episode, except you're

1277
01:12:30,737 --> 01:12:34,967
way more interesting than just to do a heavy metal episode, so we have to talk

1278
01:12:34,977 --> 01:12:36,077
about all the other things as well.

1279
01:12:36,712 --> 01:12:39,522
Maybe next time we try that we start with the heavy metal stuff

1280
01:12:39,752 --> 01:12:41,212
What's your favorite metal band?

1281
01:12:42,026 --> 01:12:46,026
Uh, Children of Bodom is why I started playing guitar as a teenager.

1282
01:12:46,093 --> 01:12:47,496
Nightwish is still

1283
01:12:47,571 --> 01:12:47,771
of Bonn.

1284
01:12:48,686 --> 01:12:48,851
And

1285
01:12:48,956 --> 01:12:51,766
will you participate in the Rock A Moto here tomorrow night?

1286
01:12:52,506 --> 01:12:55,316
Um, sounds very interesting.

1287
01:12:55,386 --> 01:12:56,106
Excellent.

1288
01:12:56,381 --> 01:12:59,111
we should, uh, maybe we should, uh, yeah, get,

1289
01:12:59,161 --> 01:12:59,961
Figure out some finish,

1290
01:13:00,101 --> 01:13:00,561
some finish

1291
01:13:00,591 --> 01:13:01,051
metal for

1292
01:13:01,076 --> 01:13:05,966
the Yeah, shout out to Maz and Lightning Ventures for organizing that.

1293
01:13:06,426 --> 01:13:06,896
And

1294
01:13:06,946 --> 01:13:08,526
play guitar or drums there?

1295
01:13:08,816 --> 01:13:09,726
Yes, you can.

1296
01:13:10,246 --> 01:13:12,136
Yes, absolutely.

1297
01:13:12,296 --> 01:13:13,146
Absolutely.

1298
01:13:13,631 --> 01:13:14,681
Fantastic.

1299
01:13:15,541 --> 01:13:15,751
But.

1300
01:13:16,596 --> 01:13:21,776
So, so Anywhere you want to send our listeners any, any, like, before we

1301
01:13:21,776 --> 01:13:23,496
wrap this up, is there anything else?

1302
01:13:23,496 --> 01:13:27,306
I think we're approaching a good stopping point here.

1303
01:13:27,861 --> 01:13:30,321
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the only other thing I wanted to just, just

1304
01:13:30,641 --> 01:13:31,861
pick your brain on a little bit.

1305
01:13:31,871 --> 01:13:34,501
How are you finding, uh, Prague, BTC Prague?

1306
01:13:35,211 --> 01:13:36,211
It's wonderful.

1307
01:13:36,241 --> 01:13:40,341
Um, such optimism and positive energy.

1308
01:13:40,651 --> 01:13:41,641
The venue is great.

1309
01:13:41,701 --> 01:13:46,661
Prague has become one of my favorite cities, if not the most favorite city.

1310
01:13:47,371 --> 01:13:50,681
Beautiful architecture, nice, um, relaxed vibe.

1311
01:13:51,676 --> 01:13:53,146
Yeah, totally agree.

1312
01:13:53,301 --> 01:13:53,891
Totally agree.

1313
01:13:54,561 --> 01:13:55,111
Fantastic.

1314
01:13:55,111 --> 01:13:57,001
So right, right back to Knut's question.

1315
01:13:57,351 --> 01:13:59,391
Any, that, that was, that was, that was it.

1316
01:13:59,421 --> 01:14:01,141
Martin and Matthias, hopefully you liked that.

1317
01:14:01,401 --> 01:14:01,721
Um,

1318
01:14:02,595 --> 01:14:06,195
Well, um, get on Nostr if you're not already.

1319
01:14:06,395 --> 01:14:08,465
Maybe you can start at nostr.

1320
01:14:08,525 --> 01:14:08,795
com.

1321
01:14:09,740 --> 01:14:13,350
Um, you can find Iris and me on iris.

1322
01:14:13,580 --> 01:14:15,450
to slash Sirius.

1323
01:14:16,390 --> 01:14:17,320
I hope it's gonna work.

1324
01:14:19,380 --> 01:14:20,190
Are you serious?

1325
01:14:20,860 --> 01:14:21,270
Yes.

1326
01:14:21,500 --> 01:14:22,010
Business.

1327
01:14:23,650 --> 01:14:25,820
I actually have Sirius Business Ltd.

1328
01:14:27,170 --> 01:14:27,840
Fantastic.

1329
01:14:28,130 --> 01:14:32,110
Marty, so much for coming on and enjoy the rest of the conference.

1330
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:33,250
Likewise.

1331
01:14:33,395 --> 01:14:33,805
thanks Martin.

1332
01:14:34,345 --> 01:14:34,675
Yes.

1333
01:14:35,035 --> 01:14:36,425
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1334
01:14:36,605 --> 01:14:37,415
Thanks for listening.

1335
01:14:37,810 --> 01:14:38,330
Bye bye.