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Pierre, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.

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Hey, thanks for having me on.

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This is actually quite the moment for me because yours was the first pod I was ever on.

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Back when you had the Noded podcast, I looked it up. It was episode 63, I think, of the Noded podcast.

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I had just released Sovereignty Through Mathematics, and we had, I believe, met in Riga, maybe, or maybe it was before Riga.

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I remember, I remember it because I missed it.

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I missed the date because I was at an amusement park with my kids and I totally fucked up.

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And I thought I had made the biggest blunder of my life, but it turned out pretty well.

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Now, even though I missed the park.

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You can never go wrong going to the amusement park with your kids.

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I think that's the right move.

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Yeah.

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Except in Sweden, because it's shit cold at the amusement parks.

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But anyway, that was, that was a good time.

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Yeah.

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And a lot has happened since.

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What, first of all, what, what, maybe we should start with giving our listeners a TLDR

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on Piero card, since you haven't been on my show before.

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So, so just give them the, the short one.

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Yeah, sure.

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So, you know, before Bitcoin existed, I got interested in monetary economics.

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I was kind of a sound money, gold and silver student of the Austrian school.

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And I also got interested in open source software.

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So I was listening to Richard Stallman, and I never thought those two things would cross.

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But fast forward to the end of 2012, and I really took a deep dive into Bitcoin at the behest of my friends, Michael Goldstein and Daniel Krewitz, who would later go on to develop some of these thoughts at the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute.

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And Michael Goldstein continues to maintain the Nakamoto Institute.

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He's the president there.

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So for people who really want to go deep on coin philosophy and history and kind of cypherpunk and all of the literature around that, I highly recommend it.

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And to donate and support it so that it continues to grow in its content.

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So fast forward to, you know, kind of, I took a career in accounting.

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I got my bachelor and master in accounting at UT Austin.

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Started kind of a normal TradFi accounting role.

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but really wanted to work in the Bitcoin industry.

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So I took a role at BitPay

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in their accounting department in Atlanta.

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That was a Bitcoin payment processor.

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They still exist actually,

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but I feel like they're maybe less prominent

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than they were at the time.

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And worked in TradFi as well,

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later at Hudson River Trading,

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which is a high-frequency trading shop there.

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I was doing accounting, nothing to do with Bitcoin,

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but definitely, you know, fiat mining, right?

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and also learning a lot about how the financial system and capital markets work.

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So when I really wanted to focus on open source full-time, I was really interested in the Lightning

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network. I'd started seeing videos of Jack Mahler's working on his Lightning software,

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and I thought it was really cool. And I was a Python guy. He was more of a, I think, you know,

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JavaScript guy. And I like JavaScript, but I felt more comfortable with Python. So

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I started working on some different lightning related projects. I did what they call a residency

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at ChainCode Labs back then. And you do a project as part of that. And so my project was

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actually an Excel plugin that allowed you to send lightning payments from within Microsoft Excel.

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So I had a lot of fun doing that. And then that led me to the node launcher because the hardest

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part of that on Windows was actually running a Bitcoin and lightning node side by side and

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having them communicate with each other. And that led me to Kraken because Kraken was really

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interested in integrating with the Lightning Network. And it took a little while, but we

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eventually got that done. And then Elizabeth Warren started attacking Bitcoin miners. And so

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I joined Riot Platforms as their VP of research to provide the intellectual arguments for why she's

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wrong and pushed back on this by hiring lobbyists, hiring public policy experts to go and make sure

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that the regulatory risk around Bitcoin mining in the US was minimized. That was successful beyond

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anyone's imagination that we completely won that battle. Nobody cares anymore about Bitcoin mining

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from a political perspective and that decided to go out and focus on other things, namely

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the financialization of Bitcoin.

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I think that's probably the biggest topic for the next few decades.

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You know, payments will continue to be important, obviously, and mining will continue to be

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important.

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But what I'm really excited about is taking over the financial system.

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Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there and a lot like we've had parallel careers in this.

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like but in completely different directions it's kind of kind of fun to to pinpoint that the timeline

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and what happens when and yeah i like to do this with a lot of bitcoiners like uh first of all like

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i remember using lightning back the first time we met was baltic honey badger 2019 this is the second

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year they do the conference i believe and i remember using lightning then and custodial

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lightning of course like i i could accept custodial lightning payments for my book i don't have

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anything against custodial lightning in fact you know that's what we need to crack and uh and it

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worked really well but i i don't have you know it's like because if you already have an account

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open at the exchange it's just so convenient yeah and i mean i view it as a superior form of a bank

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account because like sure you can do fractional reserve on on custodial lightning theoretically

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you could absolutely do that.

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I reckon did proof of reserves, right?

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So it was, but yeah, I agree that it's a risk, right?

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That that would happen.

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I mean, it's safer than a regular bank

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because if there was a bank run on a custodial Lightning wallet,

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then there is no central bank to bail the Lightning provider out.

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Yeah.

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So that's actually a good thing then.

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So, yeah.

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And, you know, it's funny because people say,

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oh, what happens if Bitcoin becomes fractional reserve?

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It's like, well, what happened to FTX?

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What happened to MacGuy's?

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The people there get wiped out,

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and then everybody else in the Bitcoin economy is like,

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hey, you shouldn't have done that.

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No, it's as it should be.

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It's what banking used to be before the central banks.

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If you weren't doing your due diligence

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to check if the bank was legit or not as the customer,

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you got wrecked.

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Yeah.

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And no one else got wrecked.

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The taxpayer didn't get wrecked.

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So that's the difference.

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People still get wrecked.

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It's just that it's obscured.

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And then, you know, to take it even further, like Sam Beckman-Fraid, he's in prison today.

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I don't think anybody who was responsible for the 2008 financial crisis is in prison today.

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No.

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No.

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There was one guy who committed suicide.

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Slightly shortly after.

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But other than that, I've heard of no, if you can call that a repercussion, maybe it shouldn't, because who knows whatever made him make that horrible decision.

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But I mean, they haven't been held accountable, that's for sure.

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And the scariest part about that, and I remember even back then reflecting on this, even though it was happening on the other side of the globe, like the Democrats and the Republicans just colluding and saying that this was the best way forward to just bail out the bad guys.

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And I never understood it.

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I think that to not do it would have required admitting, like, because they actually didn't do anything illegal.

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That's why they didn't go to jail.

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because all of this nonsense is legal.

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And it's legal by exception.

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It says that nobody can do this except this oligopoly,

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this cartel that can create money out of thin air

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and everybody else, it's counterfeiting.

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Yeah, I mean, this is where the distinction

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between legal and lawful from a libertarian perspective comes in.

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It may be legal, but it sure as hell ain't lawful.

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No, not at all.

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Because it's breaking natural law.

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So, yeah, back when I did the pod with you, that was episode 63 of Noded, which you did with Bitstein or Michael Goldstein.

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So when did that whole thing start?

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When did you start doing that pod and why?

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Like what was the origin story there?

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The origin story was that there was an altcoin podcast that was becoming popular.

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And I thought, well, there should be a Bitcoin podcast as well.

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it might not become popular, but there should be one. And I enjoyed being a guest on other people's

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podcasts at that point. And so I was like, well, I could start my own. And with Michael Bilstein as

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well, because we have good chemistry together in having some sense of humor about this stuff.

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And the title came from a famous Barry Silberg tweet responding to what we would call it today,

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a Bitcoin pleb. And he said that the pleb, I forget his name now, but he said something

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along the lines of like that he thinks Barry Silbert's a scammer or something, right?

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And Barry Silbert replied, noted, N-O-T-E-D, you know, period of like somehow, you know,

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Barry Silbert's writing this guy's name down and, you know, their enemies text.

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I thought it was a lot of people on Twitter thought it was a funny, you know,

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weird, egotistical thing to write.

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And so it kind of took off as a meme.

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And then I thought, well, how about noted?

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I know D-E-D.

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It's a playoff of the peer-to-peer network.

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And how many episodes did you record in total?

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Like for how long did that, is it a latent project, by the way?

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Is there a chance you'll revive it?

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We try to get an episode out once a year now.

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So it's still going.

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You know, both Michael and I, we've got kids.

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It's hard to find both time that synchronizes with each other and with a guest.

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It's a little bit too much overhead.

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So we did do just Michael and I podcast episodes for the Nakamoto Institute.

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It's called the Reorg.

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And we went back and we looked at past writings on the Nakamoto Institute website

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and kind of have they withstood the test of time, you know, 10 years later.

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So how early was noted, like in comparison to, you know, what Bitcoin did or Tales from the Crypt?

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Well, that's a good question.

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I'd have to go look because I was the first interview guest on Tales from the Crypt.

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I had met Marty Bett in New York.

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We were both living there and we had bone broths together while walking the streets of New York, I remember.

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And yeah, we recorded the, I think it was a two or three hour rip that we had as the first episode.

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So I definitely recommend people go back and listen to that.

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I think I want to say that was 2019.

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So after we started Noted.

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And then what Bitcoin did, I remember I was a guest on pretty early.

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I'd have to go look.

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but Peter McCormick was asking about like what why are you a Bitcoin maximalist was kind of the

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gist of the podcast and I still think it's one of the most important questions in you know in the

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world but yeah I'd also recommend people go go listen to that one it was a while back he had just

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gotten himself into trouble for for saying something anti-maximalist but he does that right

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he gets himself in trouble, then, then, then talks about it for a little while.

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And, and it, I think it's an interesting way to go.

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Maybe there's a tactic there.

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I'm, I'm, I, I w I will not comment any further on that, but it's this trying to

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become a big podcaster is a different game than trying to become a, a

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respected maxi for sure.

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Anyway, anyway, let's not, let's not talk about that.

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Uh, I have him down as a respected maxi for the record.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I do too.

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Like the, the way I judge people is usually like, is their net contribution positive or

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negative?

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And like, I, I judged them on that.

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So you can have, I mean, it's not a, it's not a purity test in that sense, but like people

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do do things that sometimes farnish their reputation, but then they redeem themselves

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by just putting out good content, like, and a lot of it.

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So on the whole, are they a net benefit or a net detriment?

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That's how I try to, like, judge people.

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I don't know.

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Do you have a method for that?

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I try not to judge people.

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You know, I feel like who am I to judge?

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But also when I think about Bitcoin adoption, yeah, I don't know where some of these things

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net out, right?

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where I don really know you know for example like let say Mt Gox like you could say well obviously a net negative right But it got a lot of people on self custody

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And so how do you balance the positive things that came out of something

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negative with, you know, the means don't justify the ends?

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Yeah.

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I didn't necessarily mean judge meant judging people, but judging people's

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actions is a better term, I guess, because like, and how do you balance like, uh, if

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because you, you, you can't escape, you, you do value a person's opinion according to how much

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you trust them sort of like, you have to base it on some something.

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I just find it hard sometimes to disentangle whether their actions were motivated by, like,

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I feel like that, that matters is, was it motivated or was it out of ignorance?

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And sometimes it's kind of in a gray area.

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Yeah.

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I don't have all the information.

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No, there's a saying nowadays that you either die a big coiner or you live long enough to see yourself become the suit coiner.

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You know, I love the term suit coiner.

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I would definitely put myself in the camp.

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I was a suit coiner, you know, in high school, I was on the debate team.

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And so I got to wear a suit all the time.

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And, you know, I was into silver coins.

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So I was Citcoining, you know, quite early in my life.

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And I think that one of the challenges for Bitcoiners is, well, and I think it's true

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historically, right?

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So if you look at any kind of what we could call a revolutionary movement, if they are

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successful, then there's a point where they have to change gears into governing because

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they've won.

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And I think that that makes Bitcoiners intrinsically uncomfortable.

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role and we want to continue the revolution right it's like oh no we're not done yet we can't be

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satisfied here and i think that you know that for example like luke is like if if if not everyone is

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running a node and using a node then bitcoin has failed that's that's one of his axiomatic beliefs

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is that bitcoin has failed if if grandma is not running her node and i think i think the the the

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actual quote is like, if not at least 85% of the network of the coins are run by people who run

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or are owned by people who run nodes or something like that. I think it's slightly, it's not everyone,

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but like the majority needs to run nodes. Which I mean, the obvious problem is how would you know

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where you are on that spectrum? It's impossible, right? Yeah, it's impossible. But I also think

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that what really matters is the option value, the ability to run a node, the freedom to run a node,

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if you want to, is really why Bitcoin is decentralized. It's the cost of entry,

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basically. And so to me, the biggest question is, what's the cost of running a node? And what

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percentage of the world's population could afford to pay that cost if they were motivated to do so?

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And I think that if it's framed that way, then we don't have to continue the revolution until 85% of the coins we verify are being self-custody by people running their own nodes.

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And so I think that, yeah, that's where my headspace is at on the suit coining versus the bitcoining.

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All right. Yeah, there's a lot to dive into there. A lot of moral questions about how to rationalize for yourself, like merging the Bitcoin world with the legacy world. Isn't that what we're trying to get away from?

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And aren't we sort of giving in if we're like on a dollar standard in legal terms?

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So I guess the deeper question is, if a politician gets to dictate what a node is or isn't,

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haven't we already lost the game?

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Or at least on a very slippery slope to do so?

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Yeah, I don't know that a politician has that power to decide what is a Bitcoin node or not.

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I don't know how they would be able to coordinate that. Maybe the closest thing we have to that is

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Luke and the core developers. Maybe they're the politicians who decide what a Bitcoin net is.

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Trump isn't really in a position to do that. Also, if you look at, for example, BlackRock,

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right they've got this giant ibit etf they're charging fees on it and the c's are so substantial

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in the aggregate that it's actually now a material percentage of their revenue for blackrock the

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world's biggest asset manager and if you go look at and so to me like larry fink is the epitome of

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the suit coiner right like he is the the king of suits maybe not the coiner but the suit well he

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was on national television saying that Bitcoin is above governments. And so I think that raises

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a really serious philosophical question of whose side is he on, right? And then if you look at their

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marketing materials for iBit, you know, the central question they're trying to answer is why does

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Bitcoin have value, right? Because they're selling a Bitcoin ETF, right? They're not selling an ETF,

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ETF, they're selling a Bitcoin ETF. They sell lots of other ETFs. And if they wanted to,

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you know, warn people against that, they could take the Vanguard approach and warn people against

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it. So what does the marketing material say on their prospectus on kind of what they're trying

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to sell to investors? Bitcoin is decentralized. It's scarce. It's permissionless. And you can,

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you know, use it 24-7 globally. And that's why it's increasing in market share. You can self-custody

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it. So it's quite the paradox that they're advertising the centralized product using the

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properties of the underlying. And obviously, people are very interested in an ETF because

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it's convenient. They don't have to think about keys. They don't have to think about all the

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tech aspect of it. They can use it for options trading. They can borrow against it at much

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better terms than other options out there. And so would Larry Fink want to take over Bitcoin

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and co-opt it and centralize it and run all the nodes or decide what a node is?

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I actually don't think so. I think that would be against his rational profit maximizing commercial

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interests. I think that he would be killing the goose that's laying the golden egg right now for

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and that if anything, what I see them actually doing is going in the opposite direction.

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For example, they are pushing to be able to create redeem in kind, meaning that you'd

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be able to convert from physical, you know, real UTXOs into IBIT and back in as frictionless

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of a manner as possible.

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And the reason why they want to do that is because that's ultimately how they get paid

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the most fees, right?

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is to have the most users, have the best product.

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And they know that people can opt out very easily, right?

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If IBIT is annoying and inconvenient,

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people just go use real UTXOs.

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And so I think that the option value of self-sovereignty

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ultimately puts massive competitive pressure

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on anybody trying to build long-term profitable products

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around Bitcoin.

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The other part of it, when we look at, you know,

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So the state, like here in Texas, I had the joy of testifying for a strategic Bitcoin reserve for the state of Texas.

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And I couldn't believe it.

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The state senator, who is the chair of the Business and Commerce Committee, very serious guy.

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He opened up the reasoning why we need to have a strategic Bitcoin reserve is because the U.S. dollar is going to collapse.

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and so the state needs to have you know an insurance policy against that and that's where

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i think that kind of on one hand okay we don't want to empower the state by having its own you

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know having more bitcoin right and more resources on the other hand we do want to disempower the

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state by removing its monopoly on the issuance of currency right on the senior edge and that

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it's not going to happen overnight. But I think that if we don't build bridges between the fiat

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world and the Bitcoin world, because we hate fiat, the outcome is extremely immoral. Because

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the outcome is that you have a handful of people who, one, are young and risk-seeking enough to

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hold Bitcoin because it's so volatile, and two, tech-savvy enough to run their own node,

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hold their own keys. Everybody else in society would have to essentially experience the collapse

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of fiat, which might take centuries. Let's be realistic because Soviet Union took decades to

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collapse. Fiat could last another century. There's no question about it. I think that that would be

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the worst outcome. The best outcome would be that we find ways to help everybody upgrade to Bitcoin

301
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and meet them where they're at. If they think Bitcoin is too volatile, then they can go invest

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in securities offered by strategy, like the perpetual preferreds that are powered by Bitcoin,

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but are not volatile. And so all of these critiques of Bitcoin ultimately are just

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00:24:02,826 --> 00:24:09,446
an opportunity for businesses to build products that address those problems by taking advantage

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of Bitcoin's properties. Okay, I'm trying to come up with a good devil's advocate angle here,

306
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because it's usually the best for getting the conversation going. If we go back to the core

307
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versus not debate, if there's one thing I think people should be happy about, it would be the fact

308
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that this thing is happening at all because it is making people run nodes to like a lot of people

309
00:24:37,046 --> 00:24:41,526
are now running nodes because this debate is happening and they are doing their homework

310
00:24:41,526 --> 00:24:47,986
sure they might be making the wrong decisions regardless of what side of the debate you're on

311
00:24:47,986 --> 00:24:52,426
you will probably think that they're making the wrong decisions if they're on the other side of

312
00:24:52,426 --> 00:24:57,766
the debate or what but they are running nodes and they are actively participating in the network

313
00:24:57,766 --> 00:25:03,106
and that's a good thing so so like and this is something you cannot say about

314
00:25:03,106 --> 00:25:10,346
the strategic reserve companies like they are not actively they all have their coins with

315
00:25:10,346 --> 00:25:16,086
custodians right and if there's one phrase i miss from mishearing at these conferences it's

316
00:25:16,086 --> 00:25:21,486
not your keys not your coins you never hear that anymore because it's all about these paper bitcoins

317
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And we went sort of from being very, very adamant about the crucial importance of not your keys, not your coins, because it's a whole new form of ownership in a way.

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Abstract thinking that other people don't have the secret you do, kind of not really owning anything at all, but just keeping a secret.

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And we've gone from that to this all of a sudden thinking that paper bitcoins is okay.

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And it's the same thing with mining.

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If now mining is centralized, which some people raise alarm bells about mining being centralized

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and really owned by the same entity.

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And if that is true, then Bitcoin still has some type of resilient architecture because

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no miner wants to destroy Bitcoin.

325
00:26:09,186 --> 00:26:14,626
They don't have an incentive to actively destroy Bitcoin, but it's not at all as robust as

326
00:26:14,626 --> 00:26:18,826
it would have been if the node runners were actually in charge of what was going on.

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So like, what do you, what do you view as the biggest attack vector here?

328
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And is there, is there an attack vector baked into all this to the suit coining,

329
00:26:29,266 --> 00:26:31,306
let's say, or to the paper bitcoins?

330
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Yeah.

331
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I mean, I think that it's, I think the challenge is that the economic equilibrium

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00:26:38,766 --> 00:26:42,506
outcome is different than our ideological preferences.

333
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And so if we look at, for example, not your keys, not your Bitcoin, that

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00:26:48,826 --> 00:26:56,626
I think addresses two risks. One is the risk by the custodian of stealing the Bitcoin,

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00:26:56,966 --> 00:27:05,586
right? Or getting hacked. And if you look at the history of exchanges, there's plenty of examples

336
00:27:05,586 --> 00:27:09,926
to point to, right? But there's also plenty of counter examples to point to. So, you know,

337
00:27:09,926 --> 00:27:15,946
Coinbase, Kraken, BitGo, they've not gotten their private keys compromised.

338
00:27:15,946 --> 00:27:22,766
there have been lots of accounts compromised at these exchanges so I still think that

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00:27:22,766 --> 00:27:29,286
self-custody is actually better in that regard that you know I I worked at Kraken like I heard

340
00:27:29,286 --> 00:27:33,626
these stories all the time of somebody getting their account drained because their credentials

341
00:27:33,626 --> 00:27:40,646
got you know compromised but that's not materially different than somebody inputting their seed phrase

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00:27:40,646 --> 00:27:51,992
on an online service and getting swept right Which also happens right But I think that the equilibrium of well actually a lot of these custodians

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have done a semi-decent job of, you know,

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not stealing people's Bitcoin

345
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or losing people's Bitcoin.

346
00:27:59,351 --> 00:28:01,731
If Coinbase got hacked tomorrow, right,

347
00:28:01,792 --> 00:28:03,471
and the private keys got compromised,

348
00:28:04,332 --> 00:28:07,532
I think that we would see hardware wallet sales take off

349
00:28:07,532 --> 00:28:11,312
and that then there would be kind of a renewal of the ethos

350
00:28:11,312 --> 00:28:20,052
but it's kind of hard to say that oh i hope coinbase gets hacked so that we see more not

351
00:28:20,052 --> 00:28:26,091
your keys not your bitcoin because lots of innocent people would be harmed right so i feel like that's

352
00:28:27,312 --> 00:28:35,552
not not not not necessarily like a good idea to advocate for and then on the 6102 attack side

353
00:28:35,552 --> 00:28:47,512
I think that this one is much more serious in the sense that governments are going to be facing financial difficulties and they're going to be incentivized to seize Bitcoin.

354
00:28:47,512 --> 00:28:52,711
we just saw the u.s government seize i think it was a hundred thousand bitcoin

355
00:28:52,711 --> 00:29:01,992
from this pig butchering scam in asia where these people were you know i think it was chinese men

356
00:29:01,992 --> 00:29:08,471
who were being seduced by foreign women and then they were sending bitcoin or something like that

357
00:29:08,471 --> 00:29:15,032
i'm still asking chat gpt to figure it out for me and somehow the u.s got their hands on the

358
00:29:15,032 --> 00:29:19,691
Bitcoin. So I was like, how did the U.S. seize the Bitcoin on something that seems like it was

359
00:29:19,691 --> 00:29:26,411
not happening in the U.S., right? And so the question is, will the U.S. seize IBIT? And

360
00:29:26,411 --> 00:29:35,451
it could. I think that what we'll start seeing is institutions using multi-sig in multiple

361
00:29:35,451 --> 00:29:42,671
jurisdictions. So if you have a three or five multi-sig and you set it up in areas that have

362
00:29:42,671 --> 00:29:47,711
better asset protection, right? So you put a key in Hong Kong, you put one in London,

363
00:29:47,711 --> 00:29:57,012
you put one in Zurich, and then one in the US, and then one in St. Kitts or Bermuda or something,

364
00:29:57,512 --> 00:30:02,351
where now in order to seize the Bitcoin, the US government would have to jump through a lot more

365
00:30:02,351 --> 00:30:08,691
hoops. And so I think that, or even more practically speaking, civil litigation, right?

366
00:30:08,691 --> 00:30:13,471
What happens if somebody sues BlackRock and, you know, tries to take the Bitcoin or something

367
00:30:13,471 --> 00:30:14,072
like that?

368
00:30:14,572 --> 00:30:23,512
So I think that just reputationally, that's a different situation than we were in five,

369
00:30:23,611 --> 00:30:24,371
10 years ago.

370
00:30:24,631 --> 00:30:29,691
And we could argue against it until our faces are blue and wish, you know, people would

371
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take Not Your Keys, Not Your Bitcoin more seriously.

372
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But ultimately, I think that that responsibility is on the people who are offering those services,

373
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right if if you're like if we look at the landscape of self-custody there's plenty of

374
00:30:44,752 --> 00:30:50,671
services that are open source and free and people can go use those and it's pretty frictionless i'd

375
00:30:50,671 --> 00:30:57,111
point to like sparrow as as an example of something that's really easy to set up multi-sig on and i've

376
00:30:57,111 --> 00:31:03,471
helped other people set them set themselves up on that and i don't really see what the practical

377
00:31:03,471 --> 00:31:13,451
problem is where like why is it that more people are not doing that right and i i think it's just

378
00:31:13,451 --> 00:31:17,871
because they don't have the motivation to do it and then it's like how do you create that motivation

379
00:31:17,871 --> 00:31:26,371
okay let me offer an explanation yeah i i think entities like coinbase and kraken have our forces

380
00:31:26,371 --> 00:31:31,072
in the opposite direction because of course they want people to custody their bitcoin with them

381
00:31:31,072 --> 00:31:38,131
and yeah you rightfully say that they've been good at not losing people's bitcoin

382
00:31:38,131 --> 00:31:45,272
but a lot of that has to do with them making enough money to not lose people's bitcoin because

383
00:31:45,272 --> 00:31:50,931
because they've been scamming people with all this fucking shit coins and and like marketing

384
00:31:50,931 --> 00:31:59,431
shit coins as as legitimate as bitcoin like and uh i mean uh uh what's his name the bog the

385
00:31:59,431 --> 00:32:00,371
the Coinbase guy.

386
00:32:00,671 --> 00:32:01,471
Brian Armstrong, yeah.

387
00:32:02,352 --> 00:32:03,451
Yeah, Brian Armstrong.

388
00:32:04,092 --> 00:32:06,832
He never says the word Bitcoin.

389
00:32:06,971 --> 00:32:08,252
It's always Bitcoin and crypto.

390
00:32:08,532 --> 00:32:13,191
And it's like he can't say anything but crypto

391
00:32:13,191 --> 00:32:17,832
because he needs to keep this fooling people over and over again

392
00:32:17,832 --> 00:32:20,252
to be able to store people's Bitcoin.

393
00:32:20,252 --> 00:32:22,852
So he's not fucking over Bitcoiners, sure.

394
00:32:23,211 --> 00:32:26,772
But he's fucking over other people by legitimizing these other things.

395
00:32:26,772 --> 00:32:29,951
And so don't you see a problem with that?

396
00:32:30,072 --> 00:32:31,451
Is that morally okay?

397
00:32:31,631 --> 00:32:33,292
Or like, what's your view?

398
00:32:34,012 --> 00:32:37,971
Well, I mean, I think that it's putting it.

399
00:32:38,312 --> 00:32:41,292
Look, I think that morally it's not okay.

400
00:32:41,471 --> 00:32:42,951
I like services like River.

401
00:32:43,391 --> 00:32:46,971
I recommend people use river.com over Coinbase.

402
00:32:47,211 --> 00:32:53,252
From a market perspective, it seems like a losing battle for them, right?

403
00:32:53,252 --> 00:32:59,552
that if you look at Bitcoin dominance, it's actually pretty healthy. The S coins keep getting

404
00:32:59,552 --> 00:33:06,451
wrecked. And, you know, even like the Ethereum ETFs have been a lot less successful than the

405
00:33:06,451 --> 00:33:15,691
Bitcoin ETFs. So, you know, even like on the treasury company side, I think that the altcoin

406
00:33:15,691 --> 00:33:22,332
treasury companies are going to underperform the Bitcoin treasury companies. And, you know, it's like

407
00:33:22,332 --> 00:33:29,572
I've met, you know, over the past decade, plenty of altcoiners. Some of them are just trying to

408
00:33:29,572 --> 00:33:34,111
make more Bitcoin. And so that I feel like that's kind of dishonest, right? I think it's more honest

409
00:33:34,111 --> 00:33:39,852
to say like, oh, I actually believe this has utility and like I'm accumulating Ethereum so

410
00:33:39,852 --> 00:33:46,332
that I can spend gas on my future stablecoin payments. That would be the best honest, but

411
00:33:46,332 --> 00:33:52,292
utterly ridiculous, you know, position to have. Usually they're just trying to flip and, you know,

412
00:33:52,332 --> 00:33:58,231
get more Bitcoin at the end of the day. So I think that ultimately the market-driven process

413
00:33:58,231 --> 00:34:05,492
is twofold. One is just the fundamentals, right, of Bitcoin just has more reliable software

414
00:34:05,492 --> 00:34:12,392
parameters than any other network. But two is economic on the liquidity, right? So Bitcoin has

415
00:34:12,392 --> 00:34:20,211
liquidity network effects that are self-reinforcing and ultimately will make it such that these altcoins,

416
00:34:20,211 --> 00:34:24,791
despite Kraken and Coinbase screwing over their customers,

417
00:34:25,512 --> 00:34:29,731
will not really take market share from Bitcoin.

418
00:34:30,191 --> 00:34:33,552
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419
00:34:33,872 --> 00:34:36,271
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420
00:34:36,771 --> 00:34:39,412
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421
00:34:39,412 --> 00:34:46,931
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422
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423
00:34:54,651 --> 00:34:57,731
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424
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425
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426
00:35:05,151 --> 00:35:07,831
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427
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428
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429
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430
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It's easy to use and it's super secure.

431
00:35:30,311 --> 00:35:32,572
It's my personal favorite hardware wallet.

432
00:35:32,992 --> 00:35:37,451
It's super slick, super privacy focused and super easy to use.

433
00:35:37,651 --> 00:35:45,751
So go to bitbox.swiss and use code infinity for a discount.

434
00:35:46,151 --> 00:35:46,831
Check it out now.

435
00:35:46,831 --> 00:35:55,412
But isn't the strategic reserve companies, Bitcoin on the balance sheet companies,

436
00:35:55,412 --> 00:36:01,092
isn't that this cycle shit just this cycle shit coins then because a lot a lot of them are going

437
00:36:01,092 --> 00:36:07,072
to rug people right like it's uh there's a lot of added third-party risk third-party risk upon

438
00:36:07,072 --> 00:36:13,231
third-party risk since it's held by a custodian and then you buy the stock of the company that

439
00:36:13,231 --> 00:36:19,691
is keeping its coins with it's double right so so do you view them as as that i'm i know you're

440
00:36:19,691 --> 00:36:25,251
involved with some of them so so obviously you don't view the ones you're involved with as that

441
00:36:25,251 --> 00:36:27,552
But I see a big risk there.

442
00:36:27,631 --> 00:36:27,971
Do you?

443
00:36:28,872 --> 00:36:29,831
So I don't.

444
00:36:29,892 --> 00:36:31,251
I think it's a huge opportunity.

445
00:36:31,532 --> 00:36:35,631
And so one is on, are these, this cycle's S coins?

446
00:36:36,311 --> 00:36:43,112
And what I look for is like, what is the valuation model for the asset?

447
00:36:43,572 --> 00:36:50,432
So when I look at SHIB or Dogecoin or, you know, all these other altcoins,

448
00:36:50,432 --> 00:36:58,331
like, okay, what is almost, I know this is anti-Austrian, but just, you know, the terminology

449
00:36:58,331 --> 00:37:06,092
intrinsic value, right? Fundamental value, right? Or what's my, or my subjective valuation of them

450
00:37:06,092 --> 00:37:11,092
would be the more Austrian way to put it. And when I do my subjective valuation of Dogecoin,

451
00:37:11,771 --> 00:37:19,372
the value I come to is zero, right? Zero BTC is what one Dogecoin is worth from my perspective.

452
00:37:19,372 --> 00:37:29,492
When I look at the value of a Bitcoin treasury company, I first start with how many Bitcoin per share do they have, right?

453
00:37:29,592 --> 00:37:31,651
As kind of the first fundamental.

454
00:37:32,572 --> 00:37:36,552
Then secondly, kind of what's the trajectory for that?

455
00:37:36,711 --> 00:37:39,331
Is that going to increase or decrease?

456
00:37:40,191 --> 00:37:48,971
And then what risk probability do I assign to having to rely on third parties, right?

457
00:37:48,971 --> 00:37:55,331
And basically, in order for a Bitcoin treasury company to be interesting from a valuation

458
00:37:55,331 --> 00:38:01,771
perspective, my subjective valuation of it has to be less than the market price.

459
00:38:02,572 --> 00:38:08,671
So if the market price is greater than my valuation of it, then that overvaluation

460
00:38:08,671 --> 00:38:15,471
is the S-coin component of it, where I just think that it's overvalued relative to its

461
00:38:15,471 --> 00:38:15,831
fundamentals.

462
00:38:15,831 --> 00:38:26,572
But it could also, you know, there could be times where sentiment is bad and people's expectations, I believe, are incorrect subjectively.

463
00:38:27,072 --> 00:38:31,932
And that coin treasury company is undervalued relative to my subjective valuation of it.

464
00:38:32,471 --> 00:38:43,492
And so, you know, whether at any particular point in time the company is overvalued or undervalued in its stock price, I think that that's open to debate.

465
00:38:43,492 --> 00:38:46,412
what I don't think is open to debate is to say,

466
00:38:46,811 --> 00:38:50,432
oh, the fundamental value of these companies is zero, right?

467
00:38:50,631 --> 00:38:54,771
That's just saying my subjective risk assessment,

468
00:38:55,171 --> 00:39:00,771
I multiply the probability of the Bitcoin disappearing by 100%.

469
00:39:01,392 --> 00:39:05,072
And so there I would say, well, you're mispricing the risk.

470
00:39:05,612 --> 00:39:09,052
And that really, you know, it's from a, but that's subjective, right?

471
00:39:09,072 --> 00:39:11,032
So you can disagree with me and that's what makes a market.

472
00:39:11,032 --> 00:39:27,831
Yeah, but if you extrapolate into infinity, so if you think of this on the longest timeframe you can, then they do go to zero.

473
00:39:27,831 --> 00:39:33,932
because either Bitcoin outperforms them in case it was better to hold Bitcoin

474
00:39:33,932 --> 00:39:37,992
than to hold these paper Bitcoins with added counterparty risk,

475
00:39:38,331 --> 00:39:41,392
or Bitcoin goes to zero and then they also go to zero

476
00:39:41,392 --> 00:39:44,171
because then they have no underlying asset.

477
00:39:44,831 --> 00:39:48,191
So what timeframe are we talking about here?

478
00:39:48,191 --> 00:39:53,671
Or do we have to reevaluate these things every year or every month or every week

479
00:39:53,671 --> 00:39:55,151
or every decade?

480
00:39:55,151 --> 00:39:57,951
Nate, what's your time frame when you talk about these things?

481
00:39:58,671 --> 00:40:02,072
Yeah, you have to reevaluate them on a daily basis.

482
00:40:02,372 --> 00:40:05,572
I think that's really the strongest argument against Bitcoin treasury companies,

483
00:40:06,191 --> 00:40:11,092
is that the active management of the asset, you have to keep your eyes on it

484
00:40:11,092 --> 00:40:16,352
if you actually want to understand when to sell the stock or buy the stock.

485
00:40:17,092 --> 00:40:23,271
And I think that most Bitcoiners are not interested in investing in equities.

486
00:40:23,271 --> 00:40:29,251
They want to save money. They want to hold stats in cold storage and hold Bitcoin.

487
00:40:29,572 --> 00:40:36,872
And so that's why I think that Bitcoin treasury companies are not particularly interesting to most Bitcoiners.

488
00:40:37,572 --> 00:40:43,711
It's kind of a niche interest of you have to be interested in capital markets.

489
00:40:44,131 --> 00:40:49,731
You also have to believe that the U.S. rule of law and property rights are going to hold together well enough

490
00:40:49,731 --> 00:40:53,451
that this isn't going to be an issue going forward.

491
00:40:54,412 --> 00:40:59,372
And yeah, so I definitely don't think that it's, for most people,

492
00:40:59,811 --> 00:41:02,731
something that they can wrap their heads around and keep tabs on.

493
00:41:03,151 --> 00:41:05,251
Even within the Bitcoin treasury industry,

494
00:41:05,771 --> 00:41:09,191
sometimes I'll hear people say things that I believe are incorrect

495
00:41:09,191 --> 00:41:11,331
and they're in the industry, right?

496
00:41:11,331 --> 00:41:15,592
So it's like, well, yeah, I think that even I say things incorrect

497
00:41:15,592 --> 00:41:19,072
because I would also point out this is very new.

498
00:41:19,072 --> 00:41:27,171
So the Bitcoin Treasury playbook only, I would argue, started getting written this year because

499
00:41:27,171 --> 00:41:30,791
of the perpetual preferreds that started this year.

500
00:41:30,791 --> 00:41:45,797
So before it was only about convertible bonds and what Sealer was doing with that kind of leverage Now we on a completely new model And so I think that not only are you underwriting all the risks that we discussed you also kind of underwriting

501
00:41:45,797 --> 00:41:52,097
a new business model. And so it's almost like you're a startup VC more so than just a value

502
00:41:52,097 --> 00:41:59,877
investor. Yeah. I mean, the biggest positive I see with them is that they somehow managed to tap

503
00:41:59,877 --> 00:42:07,037
into this giant pond of boomer money that was inaccessible to that wasn't flowing into bitcoin

504
00:42:07,037 --> 00:42:14,257
before but now somehow it's like everything connects to bitcoin in a way that it didn't

505
00:42:14,257 --> 00:42:19,917
before like it's it's even in the swedish pension funds now because they own some micro strategy

506
00:42:19,917 --> 00:42:25,317
stock or something so like inadvertently like everything touches bitcoin and all the boomer

507
00:42:25,317 --> 00:42:29,397
money and they're going to have to live with it. That's a good aspect of it, I guess.

508
00:42:29,957 --> 00:42:37,537
I think it's crucial from a political perspective. This is actually what minimizes the risk of a 6102

509
00:42:37,537 --> 00:42:44,597
is that everybody in society has some kind of exposure to Bitcoin. So everybody is getting rich

510
00:42:44,597 --> 00:42:53,297
together. Yeah, there is though in the EU, there's a 6102 light in a way because they're trying as

511
00:42:53,297 --> 00:43:00,817
hard as they can to ban what they call unhosted wallets. So they're basically trying to prevent

512
00:43:00,817 --> 00:43:07,877
you from owning or from holding your own keys, which is like vulgar to a Bitcoiner. I mean,

513
00:43:08,277 --> 00:43:14,257
I never wanted to meddle with these. Like you say, if you have to check the price every day,

514
00:43:14,377 --> 00:43:21,277
I mean, the reason I found Bitcoin so compelling, one of the reasons was that I didn't want to be a

515
00:43:21,277 --> 00:43:26,197
trader. Like, I don't want to watch charts all day and not know if I was going to win or lose when

516
00:43:26,197 --> 00:43:33,437
I can just hold the sats for a decade and be happy. And I believe you can still do that. You're still

517
00:43:33,437 --> 00:43:38,357
going to win massively if you hold sats for a decade. Like, the chances that you will are

518
00:43:38,357 --> 00:43:43,677
enormous. The upside is still enormous. So, yeah, where was I going with this? I don't really know

519
00:43:43,677 --> 00:43:50,777
where I was going with this. Thoughts? Yeah, so, I mean, I think that to me, like, what big picture

520
00:43:50,777 --> 00:43:56,637
from an economic perspective, the reason why I think Bitcoin treasury companies came about and

521
00:43:56,637 --> 00:44:03,437
will continue to grow at an astonishing rate is really because they are doing a speculative attack

522
00:44:03,437 --> 00:44:11,537
on fiat currencies. And so on one hand, they are going leverage long Bitcoin with the equity part,

523
00:44:11,657 --> 00:44:16,977
let's say MSTR. On the other hand, they're shorting fiat currencies by issuing these

524
00:44:16,977 --> 00:44:23,557
perpetual preferreds. And so they, for example, you know, yesterday they announced STRE, which is

525
00:44:23,557 --> 00:44:31,077
a stream, which is aimed, it's denominated in euros. And I think it pays like a 10% yield or

526
00:44:31,077 --> 00:44:35,377
something like that. I'd have to go double check, but it's basically, you know, double digit

527
00:44:35,377 --> 00:44:43,937
percentage. In Europe, the current fixed income products are paying single digits, low single

528
00:44:43,937 --> 00:44:52,737
digits. And so what happens when an investor in Europe, they sell their government bond that's

529
00:44:52,737 --> 00:45:01,877
paying 1% or 2% or whatever it is, and they go buy Stream that pays 10% and they give euros to

530
00:45:01,877 --> 00:45:08,957
Michael Saylor and then Michael Saylor goes out and buys Bitcoin. And then Bitcoin does better

531
00:45:08,957 --> 00:45:16,057
than 10% over the long run, that then this fixed income instrument was smoothing out

532
00:45:16,057 --> 00:45:24,037
the returns of Bitcoin in the short run so that the boomer has price stability and has

533
00:45:24,037 --> 00:45:27,477
income on his euros or her euros.

534
00:45:28,077 --> 00:45:34,837
And that, okay, well, wouldn't it be better if these people could just buy Bitcoin and

535
00:45:34,837 --> 00:45:43,137
be okay with being down 80% and then up 5,000%? Yes, in theory, it would be better. In practice,

536
00:45:43,457 --> 00:45:49,017
they would panic sell, or they would sell too early during the bull market. They would make

537
00:45:49,017 --> 00:45:53,737
trading mistakes despite us yelling at them to hold it in cold storage and ignore it.

538
00:45:54,417 --> 00:46:00,837
And one of the reasons why is that either they're very risk averse or they need the income this year,

539
00:46:00,837 --> 00:46:07,357
right? They needed the 10% income this year. And so they have to go sell some percentage of the

540
00:46:07,357 --> 00:46:13,317
Bitcoin if they were holding Bitcoin. And that a lot of people are just, they're worried about

541
00:46:13,317 --> 00:46:20,797
the principle. And what if Bitcoin goes sideways or down for three years that they can't hold

542
00:46:20,797 --> 00:46:27,817
through that psychologically or economically? So I think that these products are solving a real

543
00:46:27,817 --> 00:46:32,597
problem for the people buying them. And they're solving a real problem for strategy because

544
00:46:32,597 --> 00:46:38,617
strategy wants to get leveraged along Bitcoin. And so that's the two legs of the Bitcoin treasury

545
00:46:38,617 --> 00:46:48,217
trade. And so, you know, how do we get to a world without fiat? Well, the governments are going to

546
00:46:48,217 --> 00:46:57,357
have to do some things, right? If people are selling government bonds to buy Stream or any

547
00:46:57,357 --> 00:47:01,537
of these other fixed income products, the governments are either going to have to compete

548
00:47:01,537 --> 00:47:02,817
and raise interest rates.

549
00:47:03,777 --> 00:47:05,837
They can't do that because they're over indebted.

550
00:47:06,037 --> 00:47:12,257
And so that would cause the financial system, the fiat financial system to, you know, get

551
00:47:12,257 --> 00:47:17,017
into some serious problems or they impose capital controls.

552
00:47:17,017 --> 00:47:24,657
You could imagine that the EU could ban strategy from issuing perpetual preferreds or, you

553
00:47:24,657 --> 00:47:29,977
know, Elizabeth Warren could try to ban strategy from holding Bitcoin. They could say you can't

554
00:47:29,977 --> 00:47:35,717
have more than 50% of your Bitcoin or balance sheet in Bitcoin. So that's capital controls.

555
00:47:35,897 --> 00:47:40,597
And I would argue that's what they tried here in the US with Operation Chokepoint 2.0,

556
00:47:40,777 --> 00:47:44,257
where they were trying to stop Bitcoin companies from having bank accounts.

557
00:47:44,877 --> 00:47:48,157
So they try to separate. It's funny, it's kind of the horseshoe theory. Like,

558
00:47:48,857 --> 00:47:52,357
there's Bitcoiners who want to separate the financial system from Bitcoin.

559
00:47:52,357 --> 00:47:56,397
And there's also fiat Nazis who want to do the same thing, right?

560
00:47:56,437 --> 00:47:59,057
They don't want Bitcoin to get intermingled with the financial system.

561
00:47:59,577 --> 00:48:07,157
The third thing that governments can do and I think should do in order to stabilize their

562
00:48:07,157 --> 00:48:14,297
currencies is to print fiat to buy Bitcoin and to do that until they can back the fiat

563
00:48:14,297 --> 00:48:20,757
one-to-one with Bitcoin and speed run the gold standard in reverse with Bitcoin.

564
00:48:20,757 --> 00:48:25,957
Yeah, we're going to have to see how that plays out because like, that seems like

565
00:48:25,957 --> 00:48:27,157
Those are the only three options.

566
00:48:27,157 --> 00:48:28,917
There's not like a fourth option that they have.

567
00:48:29,797 --> 00:48:33,797
Well, there's the non option, which is just letting it die.

568
00:48:33,797 --> 00:48:42,757
And it's sort of, this seems to me like, you know, a dead horse having spasms.

569
00:48:42,757 --> 00:48:44,037
Like it's already dead.

570
00:48:44,037 --> 00:48:44,517
Yeah.

571
00:48:44,517 --> 00:48:49,877
It's like already dead when you can get this product that has based on Bitcoin that can

572
00:48:49,877 --> 00:48:57,277
guaranteed 10% yield, which is probably not really 10% because I believe the real euro inflation is

573
00:48:57,277 --> 00:49:03,077
above 10%, and especially if it's denominating Bitcoin. And as an Austrian, we know that

574
00:49:03,077 --> 00:49:15,137
the natural state of the free market is falling prices. So stable currency is a lie in itself,

575
00:49:15,137 --> 00:49:22,897
right we should have see falling prices and it's definitely not going to cover if you take that into

576
00:49:22,897 --> 00:49:29,217
account so so like i agree i mean it's just about having the the least worst product right it it's

577
00:49:29,217 --> 00:49:33,857
it's like when you're running from the bear you just have to be faster than the slowest person

578
00:49:34,897 --> 00:49:40,017
oh yeah i saw that in some some documentary about a guy that was worried about peak oil once

579
00:49:40,017 --> 00:49:47,477
yeah that very analogy but that's that's a good yeah the other analogy is the musical shares like

580
00:49:47,477 --> 00:49:53,477
that's how fiat works there's always a loser and on a bitcoin standard there there are no losers

581
00:49:53,477 --> 00:49:58,077
like we're all winning together and i think people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around

582
00:49:58,077 --> 00:50:04,397
that because they never lived in an economy where in order for someone to win someone else always

583
00:50:04,397 --> 00:50:06,457
had to live, always had to lose.

584
00:50:06,657 --> 00:50:08,757
They never realized

585
00:50:08,757 --> 00:50:10,077
that it can be

586
00:50:10,077 --> 00:50:12,257
all boats rise with the tide

587
00:50:12,257 --> 00:50:14,197
game. It doesn't have to have losers.

588
00:50:15,457 --> 00:50:16,417
The money

589
00:50:16,417 --> 00:50:17,937
printing is creating the losers.

590
00:50:18,857 --> 00:50:20,417
And also

591
00:50:20,417 --> 00:50:22,557
the very notion of

592
00:50:22,557 --> 00:50:24,517
separating the two systems.

593
00:50:24,837 --> 00:50:26,197
Sure, we want Bitcoin to win

594
00:50:26,197 --> 00:50:28,357
and the dollar to eventually die

595
00:50:28,357 --> 00:50:30,597
but us to have a lifeboat when it does.

596
00:50:31,957 --> 00:50:32,317
Still,

597
00:50:32,317 --> 00:50:38,997
if you just look at the internet movie database are you aware of kevin bacon numbers and how

598
00:50:38,997 --> 00:50:45,437
interconnected people are like the the the they could find like six degrees of separation between

599
00:50:45,437 --> 00:50:51,677
a person who has been in a movie with kevin bacon that has kevin kevin bacon himself has kevin

600
00:50:51,677 --> 00:50:56,617
bacon number zero and if you've been in a movie with him you have kevin bacon number one if you've

601
00:50:56,617 --> 00:51:01,017
been in a movie with a guy who's been in a movie with kevin bacon number two and so on the longest

602
00:51:01,017 --> 00:51:07,337
chain they could find was six degrees of separation. So there is no circular economy. There is no fiat

603
00:51:07,337 --> 00:51:13,337
economy in a Bitcoin economy. We're all connected and every action we take has an effect on other

604
00:51:13,337 --> 00:51:21,017
people's lives. Butterfly effects are everywhere. So I don't believe they do coexist for now and one

605
00:51:21,017 --> 00:51:26,537
is going to win and the other is going to lose in the end. We can't have them coexist forever.

606
00:51:26,537 --> 00:51:27,557
I don't know about that.

607
00:51:27,657 --> 00:51:30,577
I mean, I think that the way Bitcoin wins

608
00:51:30,577 --> 00:51:33,157
could be through the continued existence of,

609
00:51:33,617 --> 00:51:34,377
let's say, dollars,

610
00:51:34,937 --> 00:51:36,677
where $1 equals one Satoshi.

611
00:51:37,417 --> 00:51:40,537
And so people just use those words interchangeably.

612
00:51:41,677 --> 00:51:45,117
And that, you know, there's JPMorgan Chase

613
00:51:45,117 --> 00:51:48,217
has dollar bank accounts that are just,

614
00:51:48,837 --> 00:51:51,077
you know, you can deposit there with lightning.

615
00:51:52,617 --> 00:51:53,917
Yeah, but why though?

616
00:51:53,917 --> 00:52:01,037
like it's because people are um uh you know not highly regarded but they're they're set in their

617
00:52:01,037 --> 00:52:11,317
ways i could smell that word coming yeah you know if you've been it's like do you know how many

618
00:52:11,317 --> 00:52:17,637
people still think the dollar is backed by gold most i guess yeah it's an astonishing percentage

619
00:52:17,637 --> 00:52:20,937
And so I think there's a huge amount of momentum.

620
00:52:21,837 --> 00:52:30,217
And there's also just the ethical question of, okay, somebody was saving dollars their whole life for their pension fund.

621
00:52:30,877 --> 00:52:39,057
And then the dollar goes to zero and they don't have any savings for retirement.

622
00:52:39,057 --> 00:52:49,337
it. And it's not because they had any kind of moral culpability in the dollar. They're just

623
00:52:49,337 --> 00:52:56,257
basically collateral damage from this. And so I just think that it would be much better if we

624
00:52:56,257 --> 00:53:04,137
actually bridged it so that dollars become Bitcoin and that dollars become backed by Bitcoin one for

625
00:53:04,137 --> 00:53:08,997
one. And you might say, well, you know, if we're recreating the gold standard, won't the same thing

626
00:53:08,997 --> 00:53:14,997
happen again, where the government will default on the exchange ratio between dollars and Bitcoin

627
00:53:14,997 --> 00:53:21,837
and print too many dollars? Maybe, right? But that's certainly less bad than the alternative

628
00:53:21,837 --> 00:53:28,197
of the dollar going to zero. And that's just, I look at it from the perspective of the people

629
00:53:28,197 --> 00:53:33,257
who are relying on the continued existence of the dollar. And they're not all parasites,

630
00:53:33,257 --> 00:53:38,337
right some of them were just people who grew up in the dollar system and are retiring of it

631
00:53:38,337 --> 00:53:43,337
no most of them like if they are parasites they're probably unaware that they are

632
00:53:43,337 --> 00:53:50,457
but the whole system is is corrupt right and there's nothing ethical about it

633
00:53:50,457 --> 00:53:57,037
if you can conjure i mean fiduciary media is by its very nature unethical it's giving out

634
00:53:57,037 --> 00:54:02,497
conjuring up a loan out of thin air and demanding to get paid back with interest,

635
00:54:03,577 --> 00:54:06,677
it's stealing from everyone else who holds that currency.

636
00:54:06,677 --> 00:54:07,397
Yeah, sure.

637
00:54:07,577 --> 00:54:12,597
But if I look at, for example, insurance contracts are denominated in dollars,

638
00:54:13,237 --> 00:54:19,497
the insurance contract can be completely libertarian and not coercive at all

639
00:54:19,497 --> 00:54:21,477
and perfectly rational.

640
00:54:21,897 --> 00:54:25,837
But because it was denominated in dollars, now its value goes to zero

641
00:54:25,837 --> 00:54:27,517
if the dollar goes to zero.

642
00:54:28,177 --> 00:54:30,577
And so I just think that there's a lot of systems

643
00:54:30,577 --> 00:54:34,417
that are depending on the dollar as a unit of account

644
00:54:34,417 --> 00:54:36,797
that if the dollar goes to zero,

645
00:54:37,397 --> 00:54:40,857
it tears apart the social fabric of society

646
00:54:40,857 --> 00:54:45,297
in a really chaotic manner that is unnecessary

647
00:54:45,297 --> 00:54:47,957
if we build bridges

648
00:54:47,957 --> 00:54:51,177
and we actually get the government to do the right thing.

649
00:54:52,337 --> 00:54:52,897
Yeah.

650
00:54:52,897 --> 00:55:14,937
Yeah, we'll see. It's a hopeful thought, and I hope you're right in that this is a good transition thing, because you say it's less bad than what the dollar is now, yes, but it's also less good than just educating people to hold their own keys and doing it better and properly.

651
00:55:14,937 --> 00:55:16,497
do we have time?

652
00:55:16,737 --> 00:55:18,137
Do we have the time to do that?

653
00:55:19,357 --> 00:55:20,117
I think that

654
00:55:20,117 --> 00:55:21,677
if we had

655
00:55:21,677 --> 00:55:24,837
how long would it take to

656
00:55:24,837 --> 00:55:26,637
onboard everyone onto Bitcoin?

657
00:55:27,377 --> 00:55:28,697
Currently, let's say

658
00:55:28,697 --> 00:55:30,837
we've got about 100,000 people

659
00:55:30,837 --> 00:55:33,257
or maybe a million people

660
00:55:33,303 --> 00:55:36,143
holding their own keys? I don't know what your estimate would be.

661
00:55:36,583 --> 00:55:40,143
Closer to a million, but maybe a hundred thousand in the US. Yes.

662
00:55:40,603 --> 00:55:42,123
Or globally, a million?

663
00:55:42,563 --> 00:55:46,583
Yeah. I don't have, like, I'm pulling numbers out of my ass.

664
00:55:47,023 --> 00:55:47,983
Just like...

665
00:55:47,983 --> 00:55:50,183
Well, let's say it's like 10 million even, right?

666
00:55:50,403 --> 00:55:55,603
In 16 years, the growth rate has not been accelerating as far as I can tell.

667
00:55:56,343 --> 00:55:59,883
You know, on-chain is kind of empty. That's why we've got all this spam coming on.

668
00:55:59,883 --> 00:56:05,223
And so how many more decades would it take to get everybody onboarded?

669
00:56:06,163 --> 00:56:16,163
If you want to find local Bitcoin communities, other Bitcoiners, Bitcoin merchants, and Bitcoin events in your area, there's no better way to do that than through the Orange Pill app.

670
00:56:16,723 --> 00:56:17,183
Wait a minute.

671
00:56:17,503 --> 00:56:18,863
It's not the Orange Pill app anymore.

672
00:56:19,043 --> 00:56:20,223
It's Club Orange.

673
00:56:20,223 --> 00:56:30,763
Club Orange is an omni app that includes a lot of features, including a list of events, a wallet where you can send and receive sats over the Lightning Network.

674
00:56:31,063 --> 00:56:36,443
You can even geosap areas so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in one single area.

675
00:56:36,623 --> 00:56:42,563
You can also tap sap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I don't believe exists anywhere else.

676
00:56:42,763 --> 00:56:46,503
Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all around the world.

677
00:56:46,503 --> 00:56:49,783
So go to cluborange.org and sign up today.

678
00:56:49,783 --> 00:56:50,963
You won't regret it.

679
00:56:51,163 --> 00:56:52,463
It's not just a gay dating app.

680
00:56:52,643 --> 00:56:53,823
It's everything else too.

681
00:56:54,363 --> 00:56:55,423
You can use it.

682
00:56:56,183 --> 00:56:57,123
Forget about that.

683
00:56:57,563 --> 00:56:58,223
Go and sign up.

684
00:56:58,883 --> 00:57:00,383
cluborange.org

685
00:57:00,383 --> 00:57:02,963
If you want to really secure your Bitcoin,

686
00:57:03,183 --> 00:57:04,663
you should check out the Bitcoin Advisor.

687
00:57:05,083 --> 00:57:07,063
They have never lost a single set

688
00:57:07,063 --> 00:57:09,803
and they take care of your stack together with you.

689
00:57:10,003 --> 00:57:11,123
They can't use your stack.

690
00:57:11,223 --> 00:57:11,843
That's impossible.

691
00:57:12,303 --> 00:57:14,483
But they can help you with inheritance planning.

692
00:57:14,603 --> 00:57:16,603
They can help you hodl the Bitcoin long-term.

693
00:57:16,603 --> 00:57:19,463
So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more.

694
00:57:19,783 --> 00:57:25,463
and brush your teeth. Well, let me offer you a perspective on that. Because I think the

695
00:57:25,463 --> 00:57:30,903
dichotomy between store of value and medium of exchange is false and very influenced by

696
00:57:30,903 --> 00:57:37,863
Keynesian mindset. So I view them as two sides of the same coin and medium of exchange over space

697
00:57:37,863 --> 00:57:44,023
and time. Like, store of value is just medium of exchange with your future self from a certain

698
00:57:44,023 --> 00:57:50,343
perspective and that's that that whole framing is just to to point out that the the you can't have

699
00:57:50,343 --> 00:57:56,183
one without the other really and gold was a good store value and fiat was good medium exchange that's

700
00:57:56,183 --> 00:58:02,183
the narrative and now we have something that can do both right but we still come from a fiat mindset

701
00:58:02,183 --> 00:58:09,063
where velocity of money is a is a important metric according to keens like that's why the that's why

702
00:58:09,063 --> 00:58:13,483
why they're pro money printing because they think they create value every time a hundred dollar bill

703
00:58:13,483 --> 00:58:19,043
changes hands yeah that's basically basically the kinsian theory what they what they omit from the

704
00:58:19,043 --> 00:58:23,903
theory is that yeah but what's the alternative that could have what can that hundred dollar bill

705
00:58:23,903 --> 00:58:30,083
have been used for if if it had been sounder and people were saving and you know delaying

706
00:58:30,083 --> 00:58:36,183
gratification and so on and so forth so we think that it's not being used at the mean medium exchange

707
00:58:36,183 --> 00:58:38,623
but maybe we just have the wrong time frame.

708
00:58:38,623 --> 00:58:41,943
Maybe people just choose to not use it for 100 years.

709
00:58:41,943 --> 00:58:44,983
And who's to say that that's wrong or right, right?

710
00:58:45,623 --> 00:58:48,343
So if Bitcoin is just...

711
00:58:48,343 --> 00:58:54,583
And I can predict, like, right now, there's a ton of micropayments everywhere.

712
00:58:54,823 --> 00:58:58,783
You pay to go to the bathroom in the central station somewhere in Europe

713
00:58:58,783 --> 00:59:02,123
by putting a coin in a slot to open the door,

714
00:59:02,883 --> 00:59:04,863
blip your card at a machine somewhere.

715
00:59:04,863 --> 00:59:09,783
there's always a transaction and i think on a bitcoin standard it's much more likely that you

716
00:59:09,783 --> 00:59:15,983
buy a lifetime subscription service to all the train rides you can and wash your rooms you could

717
00:59:15,983 --> 00:59:22,783
ever want because the the seller always has an incentive to acquire the bitcoin sooner rather

718
00:59:22,783 --> 00:59:31,203
than later so so what i what i take away from that is like fewer transactions in total because

719
00:59:31,203 --> 00:59:33,203
Because you don't need as many transactions.

720
00:59:33,203 --> 00:59:39,563
It's like if you have 10 poor friends who eat together for 10 days, then they all buy

721
00:59:39,563 --> 00:59:50,593
a pot of noodles each because no one can afford to pick up the bill If you have 10 billionaires who eat together for 10 days then they someone picks up the bill every night and maybe it the

722
00:59:50,593 --> 00:59:56,313
same person picks up all bills regardless there's fewer transactions taking place because when

723
00:59:56,313 --> 01:00:01,773
when everyone's wealthier and you have money that goes up in value you don't need to transact as

724
01:00:01,773 --> 01:00:07,633
often as you do when when you have inflation like the whole point of the inflation according to the

725
01:00:07,633 --> 01:00:13,833
inflationists themselves is that they want many transactions to happen. So yeah, thoughts about

726
01:00:13,833 --> 01:00:19,513
that? Yeah, I mean, I think that like one way to think about market share would be transactional.

727
01:00:19,513 --> 01:00:25,733
The other would be balance sheet, right? So Bitcoin's a $2.1 trillion asset at this point.

728
01:00:26,533 --> 01:00:33,753
Global wealth, you could say it's like 500 trillion of stocks, bonds, real estate, art,

729
01:00:33,753 --> 01:00:45,613
gold. And so how do we get more market share for Bitcoin in this context? I think that essentially

730
01:00:45,613 --> 01:00:53,173
we're firing on all cylinders on Bitcoin as a spot commodity, right? Whether it's because of

731
01:00:53,173 --> 01:01:00,553
self-sovereignty reasons that people have demand for real Bitcoin, or it's because they like the

732
01:01:00,553 --> 01:01:07,753
risk return profile. And so they've got IBIT, right? In order to tap those other adjacent

733
01:01:07,753 --> 01:01:13,493
markets like the bond market or like the equity market, then you have to actually build products

734
01:01:13,493 --> 01:01:20,533
for those. And so I don't think that there's a path to, well, so I mean, the other path would be

735
01:01:20,533 --> 01:01:29,213
that bonds go to zero, stocks, you know, really in SATs terms go to zero and that we're only

736
01:01:29,213 --> 01:01:36,333
onboarding people onto real Bitcoin. And I feel like that's the nirvana fallacy of,

737
01:01:37,093 --> 01:01:42,253
because that would be the ideal world, we're going to reject the existing...

738
01:01:43,073 --> 01:01:49,613
It's kind of the Soviet new man thing. We're going to create a new person,

739
01:01:50,133 --> 01:01:55,293
and he is the sovereign individual. And he holds his own keys, and he runs his own node.

740
01:01:55,293 --> 01:02:01,833
and we're going to reprogram society and re-educate everybody to be like this.

741
01:02:02,593 --> 01:02:08,713
And I don't know that we have time to do that, I'll be honest. I also think that in order to

742
01:02:08,713 --> 01:02:15,773
get to that pragmatically, the best way to do that is to upgrade society to Bitcoin through

743
01:02:15,773 --> 01:02:23,153
these products. And so I really see it as long-term, even if your goal is to just have people

744
01:02:23,153 --> 01:02:29,793
self-cost eating Bitcoin, the shortest path to that is all of these custodial products.

745
01:02:30,053 --> 01:02:32,093
And it's as frustrating as that may be.

746
01:02:33,533 --> 01:02:36,153
Yeah, well, time will tell, I guess.

747
01:02:36,393 --> 01:02:42,253
There's also, like, we use the word we a lot here in this discussion.

748
01:02:42,513 --> 01:02:47,393
And maybe that's, like, the crucial, from an Austrian perspective, that would be a mistake

749
01:02:47,393 --> 01:02:49,053
because who's we, really?

750
01:02:49,313 --> 01:02:50,473
Like, what society?

751
01:02:50,653 --> 01:02:51,713
And so on and so forth.

752
01:02:51,713 --> 01:03:04,153
And there is a point to it being more important that, you know, honest and daring and intelligent people hold Bitcoin than everyone holds Bitcoin.

753
01:03:04,153 --> 01:03:11,253
Like Bitcoin is more for anyone than for everyone from a not your keys, not your coins perspective, I guess.

754
01:03:11,253 --> 01:03:21,253
and and because right now we have like you can you can become very wealthy from quite bad bad

755
01:03:21,253 --> 01:03:27,633
behavior like from quite immoral you can have a quite immoral code of conduct and still get very

756
01:03:27,633 --> 01:03:32,893
wealthy and that's much harder on a bitcoin standard because you can't manipulate stuff as

757
01:03:32,893 --> 01:03:40,993
easily so so maybe it's more important to just on board honest entrepreneurs than than everyone

758
01:03:40,993 --> 01:03:45,833
And then these derivatives and stuff could be for everyone else.

759
01:03:45,833 --> 01:03:48,953
Is there a middle of the bell curve thing here going on?

760
01:03:48,953 --> 01:03:49,453
I don't know.

761
01:03:50,113 --> 01:03:50,493
Yeah.

762
01:03:50,653 --> 01:04:05,364
Well I think that it you know it it reminds me of like the the Hal Finney forum post where he was saying like oh this is going to end up you know decentralizing the banking system but people will still use banks

763
01:04:05,924 --> 01:04:12,664
I think that was kind of the gist of the Bitcoin standard book from Safety and Amos as well and the conclusion of it.

764
01:04:12,904 --> 01:04:19,524
And I think that ultimately the past is the best predictor of the future.

765
01:04:20,344 --> 01:04:26,984
And so I do think it'll continue to be a mix of people self-custody and of companies,

766
01:04:27,464 --> 01:04:31,364
large platforms being trusted third-party custodians.

767
01:04:31,744 --> 01:04:36,804
But at the same time, I like to point out all of the Bitcoin are self-custody, right?

768
01:04:36,804 --> 01:04:39,584
So Coinbase is self-custody against Bitcoin.

769
01:04:40,724 --> 01:04:45,664
And you've got claims on those Bitcoin and they have specific properties and trade-offs.

770
01:04:45,664 --> 01:04:51,764
but ultimately you know from a systemic perspective it's not like there is some

771
01:04:51,764 --> 01:04:58,764
kind of ephemeral permanent trusted third party here no this is uh this is the point i'm trying

772
01:04:58,764 --> 01:05:03,684
to make all the time when i talk about these things and that is that some guy at coinbase

773
01:05:03,684 --> 01:05:10,424
has a lot of power at this point and could could just evaporate and buy an island some somewhere at

774
01:05:10,424 --> 01:05:17,064
any point. That could still happen. Yeah, then he'd end up in prison like SBF, right? So I think

775
01:05:17,064 --> 01:05:23,104
that in the current context, with great power comes great responsibility. If we were to descend

776
01:05:23,104 --> 01:05:31,904
into chaos, maybe that would change, right? If there really was a destruction of society such that

777
01:05:31,904 --> 01:05:39,244
the whole judicial system fell apart, then people could get away with just looting like that. But

778
01:05:39,244 --> 01:05:46,964
SPF went to jail. So I don't know that there's one person at Coinbase who has control over the keys.

779
01:05:47,104 --> 01:05:53,624
I imagine they've got a slightly different system, but also that those people, they're getting,

780
01:05:54,084 --> 01:06:00,084
they are getting paid money to hold those roles, right? They're not like doing it for free because

781
01:06:00,084 --> 01:06:04,944
they know they're going to be able to steal the Bitcoin. I think they're requiring to get paid

782
01:06:04,944 --> 01:06:08,164
because they're having to have this responsibility hanging over their head.

783
01:06:09,244 --> 01:06:13,964
Yeah, absolutely. And it seems to be working for now, and hopefully it does.

784
01:06:13,964 --> 01:06:22,104
The not your keys, not your coins part is, for me, that was what intrigued me from the get-go.

785
01:06:22,364 --> 01:06:27,164
I was fascinated by the promise of something on the internet that couldn't be copied.

786
01:06:27,884 --> 01:06:30,504
And it took me like 10 years to realize why.

787
01:06:30,664 --> 01:06:33,484
And that is because the coins are actually not on the internet.

788
01:06:33,684 --> 01:06:37,184
They're in people's heads, like really literally in people's heads,

789
01:06:37,184 --> 01:06:40,024
because it's just keeping a secret from everyone.

790
01:06:40,624 --> 01:06:46,084
And also believing that the system is set up in such a robust way

791
01:06:46,084 --> 01:06:51,664
that it will not change to such an extent that the 21 million cap will change or something

792
01:06:51,664 --> 01:06:53,764
so that my coins become valueless.

793
01:06:54,144 --> 01:06:55,804
So I was thinking about this the other day.

794
01:06:55,964 --> 01:06:59,484
You know, we back up our private keys on metal plates,

795
01:06:59,644 --> 01:07:04,804
was 12 or 24 words, to be resistant to fire or flood, right?

796
01:07:05,424 --> 01:07:05,644
Yeah.

797
01:07:05,644 --> 01:07:30,564
Why don't we back up the entire Bitcoin source code and the 600 gigabytes of transactional history onto metal plates and just add a plate every day that has that day's history somewhere or in multiple places that protects it from EMP attacks or more extreme scenarios?

798
01:07:30,564 --> 01:07:35,184
I was thinking about this. I asked ChatGPT how much it would cost. About $30 million.

799
01:07:35,644 --> 01:07:45,424
there's nothing yeah this is a really cool project this is because i've been thinking for a long time

800
01:07:45,424 --> 01:07:51,704
like these metal plates that i heard somewhere there was like 70 competing companies worldwide

801
01:07:51,704 --> 01:08:00,224
that are manufacturing like steel seed solutions like and my my question is like will these things

802
01:08:00,224 --> 01:08:17,335
even exist 50 years down the line or even 10 years down the line Like will people are these things as permanent as they pretend to be And maybe they are but only if we can store the rest of it So that would be the ultimate insurance against

803
01:08:17,335 --> 01:08:21,975
quantum computers, right? Because then we can always freeze the chain in time and then solve

804
01:08:21,975 --> 01:08:32,775
the problem and start building on the last metal block. Yeah. So 30 million, let's say you need it on

805
01:08:32,775 --> 01:08:40,775
all different continents so that that's 150 million maybe and yeah super cool idea i bet that

806
01:08:41,415 --> 01:08:46,135
i bet that that thing would be worth more than 30 million once it's actually done

807
01:08:47,815 --> 01:08:53,895
well it's kind of a tragedy of the comments because everybody would benefit from this right

808
01:08:54,615 --> 01:09:01,575
yeah but but you could being the custodian of the blockchain on metal plates it's a pretty

809
01:09:01,575 --> 01:09:08,775
cool thing to be like, and how big would each plate like, so so so a block is at most four

810
01:09:08,775 --> 01:09:16,695
megs. So how much is four megs etched into it into metal? Like, yeah, I'd have to dig into the most

811
01:09:16,695 --> 01:09:22,375
efficient encoding method, because then you want to be able to scan them back in right as well.

812
01:09:22,375 --> 01:09:28,695
So maybe giant QR codes. I don't know. Yeah, or just the hashes. But that's sort of you want the

813
01:09:28,695 --> 01:09:29,455
The raw data.

814
01:09:30,095 --> 01:09:30,335
Yeah.

815
01:09:30,335 --> 01:09:30,975
The raw data.

816
01:09:30,975 --> 01:09:31,215
Yeah.

817
01:09:31,215 --> 01:09:38,335
So yeah, I think that, you know, it would take some laser etching, but it's not like it's

818
01:09:38,335 --> 01:09:39,495
infeasible, right?

819
01:09:39,495 --> 01:09:41,775
It's not like an unsolved physics problem.

820
01:09:42,055 --> 01:09:46,015
It's just purely, you know, a cost engineering consideration.

821
01:09:47,015 --> 01:09:47,375
Yeah.

822
01:09:47,855 --> 01:09:48,135
Yeah.

823
01:09:49,335 --> 01:09:50,175
Well, cool idea.

824
01:09:50,975 --> 01:09:55,775
Pierre, it's been absolutely great talking to you anywhere we haven't gone yet.

825
01:09:55,775 --> 01:09:58,615
the stuff you wanted to talk about that we haven't covered yet?

826
01:09:59,735 --> 01:10:01,015
No, we covered so much.

827
01:10:01,075 --> 01:10:03,235
I really appreciate the tough questions.

828
01:10:03,235 --> 01:10:07,335
I think that it's important to get people's perspectives out there.

829
01:10:08,035 --> 01:10:09,175
Yeah, absolutely.

830
01:10:09,175 --> 01:10:10,015
I think so too.

831
01:10:10,015 --> 01:10:14,215
Like civil debate is we humans have two ways of resolving conflicts

832
01:10:14,215 --> 01:10:16,375
and one is aggression and the other is communication.

833
01:10:16,375 --> 01:10:18,575
And I, I definitely prefer the latter.

834
01:10:19,015 --> 01:10:23,735
So, so anywhere you want to send our listeners, where can they find you?

835
01:10:23,735 --> 01:10:30,395
Pierre on X. I'm also on Nostra, but I won't, I won't, you know, spell out my whole Nostra key here.

836
01:10:31,035 --> 01:10:33,795
But yeah, come, come and find me. Watch out for impersonators.

837
01:10:34,655 --> 01:10:37,975
Yeah. And are you coming to Historico next week?

838
01:10:38,895 --> 01:10:43,095
Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it. I really wanted to go, but I have a conflict.

839
01:10:43,855 --> 01:10:46,775
Oh yeah. I think I saw you on the, on the list there somewhere.

840
01:10:46,775 --> 01:10:51,875
Yeah, I was a yes. And then something family related came up that I couldn't say no to.

841
01:10:51,875 --> 01:10:55,355
Oh, well, I hope it's something good.

842
01:10:55,355 --> 01:10:56,015
It is.

843
01:10:56,015 --> 01:10:56,435
Yeah.

844
01:10:56,435 --> 01:10:57,455
Good to hear.

845
01:10:57,455 --> 01:10:59,795
Family is the most important thing.

846
01:11:00,055 --> 01:11:02,135
So we won't see each other there.

847
01:11:02,275 --> 01:11:03,855
When's the next time we'll see each other?

848
01:11:04,155 --> 01:11:04,755
I don't know.

849
01:11:04,755 --> 01:11:05,715
Are you going to Las Vegas?

850
01:11:06,875 --> 01:11:08,355
No, I'm not.

851
01:11:08,715 --> 01:11:10,855
I'm boycotting them.

852
01:11:10,935 --> 01:11:11,415
That's okay.

853
01:11:11,895 --> 01:11:12,495
That's okay.

854
01:11:13,035 --> 01:11:14,395
What about BitBlockBoom?

855
01:11:14,695 --> 01:11:15,335
Gary Leland?

856
01:11:15,895 --> 01:11:17,555
I'd love to go to BitBlockBoom.

857
01:11:17,735 --> 01:11:17,955
Yeah.

858
01:11:17,955 --> 01:11:25,095
I think that's probably the most based Bitcoin conference in the US at the moment, don't you think?

859
01:11:25,475 --> 01:11:26,375
I do think so.

860
01:11:26,555 --> 01:11:28,395
And it's an easy drive for me.

861
01:11:28,495 --> 01:11:29,735
So I'm definitely going to be there.

862
01:11:30,915 --> 01:11:31,175
Yeah.

863
01:11:31,335 --> 01:11:32,195
When is that?

864
01:11:33,195 --> 01:11:35,815
I believe that's in April.

865
01:11:36,235 --> 01:11:40,675
Let me double check for our audience so that they don't book tickets on the wrong date.

866
01:11:40,935 --> 01:11:41,955
April 9th to 12th.

867
01:11:42,875 --> 01:11:44,175
April 9th to 12th.

868
01:11:44,295 --> 01:11:45,895
Yeah, I should check that out, actually.

869
01:11:46,015 --> 01:11:46,655
I'm writing it down.

870
01:11:46,655 --> 01:11:55,155
I know I might be going to the U.S. end of next summer to Lake Satoshi.

871
01:11:56,175 --> 01:11:56,515
Oh, yeah.

872
01:11:57,315 --> 01:11:58,055
We'll see.

873
01:11:58,615 --> 01:12:00,155
Anyway, great chat.

874
01:12:00,575 --> 01:12:02,995
Good luck with everything and see you next time.

875
01:12:03,395 --> 01:12:03,735
Thank you.

876
01:12:03,775 --> 01:12:04,295
See you next time.

877
01:12:16,655 --> 01:12:46,635
Thank you.