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the problem with ordinals is that you are, creating an arbitrary game.

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Which not only interfere, but also conflicts with the previous

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conventional, but not arbitrary and very consequential game that you were

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already playing on the same information.

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So we're already playing a game that was a game of money, a game of

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property with some enforceability due to Unknowable private keys, or

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unpredictable block numbers, or proof of work thermodynamical characteristics.

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So there was already a game, it was a very cool game, not an

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arbitrary game, just half assed.

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It was a very intelligent game, and now your nothing burger, On top

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of conflicting with another game.

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin

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philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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And we're here today with our good friend, Giacomo Zucco, who's going

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to tell us a little bit more about what's going on with ocean mining,

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everything to do with ordinals, and maybe a few other interesting things

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such as his recent trip to El Salvador.

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We figured this was timely because this is all going down around Christmas time.

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We're recording this on December.

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27th, aiming to get this out within a couple of days, I think, and so

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we're in the Christmas spirit and we have our good friend Giacomo, so

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Giacomo, welcome back to the show.

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Thank you for having me back.

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Yes, it's a very good time, so I will be less toxic because I'm still a little bit

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infused with Christmas spirit, so I will be, I will be very kind to everybody.

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Yeah, how, how was the Christmas spirit in El Salvador?

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Uh, I was still not you as an Italian from north of Italy and now live in Switzerland

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where everything is cold in December.

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I was not used to do the typical, you know, Christmas with palms stuff.

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So I didn't really feel the, the, the Christmas, uh, there were some

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lights, I have to say, but, uh, but I'm still not ready to spend the actual

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Christmas day in a tropical land.

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Still too weird for me.

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Yeah, I love, uh, uh, like when they decorate palm trees with,

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uh, with Christmas lights.

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It's, it looks like something else.

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Yeah, but yeah, but also it's weird because I mean, uh, in Italy, we have

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all the, um, uh, the nativity scenes everywhere and, uh, for, uh, nativity

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scenes, it happened, even if it was December, it was, uh, it was basically

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Bethlehem, so it was Middle East, it was kind of hot, and, but to me, to see

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that without the snow and without the, the pine trees is weird, so we, we, it's

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like a global European Mandela effect.

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We know that Jesus was born in the Uh, in the cold situation, and we cannot

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accept that there were palms and not pine trees in the actual scenes.

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It's very weird.

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at least Isaac Newton was born in the cold and, uh, we actually know his birth date.

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So that's, uh, that's, uh, yeah, I'm trying to promote, uh, the

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option, optionality when it comes to Christmas, uh, so, so the, so that you

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can celebrate it whenever, whenever you want, really, like, why are we

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all celebrating at the same time?

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Newton was fine, but you know, I'm more like a Leibniz guy.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Well, we, we did an episode like, uh, um, about a month back about, uh, you know,

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um, the fees being high and it was my best attempt at, um, uh, explaining why.

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Uh, and why it's, uh, regarded, uh, but, uh, uh, I thought we'll bring you in to,

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to explain a bit more about this and, uh, why, um, why things are the way they are.

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So first, first of all, why are ordinals retarded?

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So, ordinals, just to clarify, are not directly connected with the fee situation.

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So we will dive in into all the distinctions and details.

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Ordinals are, um, the new name for a scheme proposed in 2012.

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Uh, you can still find it on, uh, Bitcoin to, I will send you the link.

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You can put it in the description.

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And, uh, in 2012, somebody said  In Bitcoin there is not an notion of a

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single Satoshi that doesn't exist.

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You have a UT xo, you spend the UT XO entirely, and then you create other UT xo.

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So the Satoshi amount is just a natural number that

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describes the size of the ut so.

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But you cannot distinguish the single atoms of the UTXO, you just know the size.

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Then you kill it and a new one is born.

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But somebody said in 2012, what if we assign arbitrarily one single

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number for each Satoshi, uh, so we can track it even after we spend it.

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For example, we can do, you can do that arbitrarily, you can do something

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like a first in first out logic.

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So you say, okay, let's, let's say that the UTXO I'm spending Uh, as the first

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Satoshi, which is somehow connected with the first Satoshi of the first, uh, output

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of the same transaction when it comes out.

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So we do first in, first out logic, and, uh, we, we can, we, we, we

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delete the fees, we adjust, and we can track Satoshis arbitrarily.

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This is, is important to, to say that this is completely arbitrary, not just in

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the sense that any software is arbitrary.

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As you teach me, Knut, every software is just agreement, so we can have

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a meta agreement on top of that.

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But it's a different level of arbitrarity in the sense that, uh, there is no

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specific, uh, clear reason to choose this, uh, versus any other kind of correlation.

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It's just like, it's not even a software decision.

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It's just an arbitrary, um, order, ordering decision, but it's

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equivalent from a functionality point of view from a First in, last

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out, or just speak it in between.

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Let's, let's give a metaphor to these, uh, assuming that Bitcoin is like gold.

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Let's see that, uh, we don't, we cannot track single gold atoms, uh,

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inside the gold bars and gold bullions.

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We can't.

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So, uh, gold is fungible, but we don't like that because for some

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reason we want to track gold atoms.

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And so, uh, we, we took the satellite images of gold trucks going into

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big foundries and coming out.

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And so we say, okay, from now on, every atom of every truck coming in is the

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first atom of the first truck coming out.

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So we know that something can happen within the foundry where

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we don't see from the satellite.

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So we know that it can be switched.

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They can be moved, they can be sold, they can be both, but we just say

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that we decide this is a thing.

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Uh, so it's, it's a, it's a very weak kind of a meta protocol.

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It's a meta protocol that will miss a lot of valuable information

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about what happens in between.

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So people reacted to this idea in 2012 in very different ways.

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I was not there in Bitcoin yet until the next year, and then I started to read all

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the discussion in 2013, and there were many, and I had some physical discussion

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with, I remember back then I was discussing with Peter Todd, Alex Mizraki,

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Loris Naum, a few other people about this, the French guy that created CoinPrism,

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and he said, you But anyway, there was like CoinPrism, CoinSpark, um, um,

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ChromaWay, a lot of colored, uh, colored names to do this colored coin thing.

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The main objections were, one, uh, Satoshis are fungible and they should

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remain fungible if you create a logic on infungibility and you actually manage it.

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So if this scheme is successful.

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We do lose social fungibility, basically.

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So people, something is fungible because people consider it fungible.

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If people stop considering it fungible, you are breaking fungibility of an object.

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The counter objection was, yes, but this is just opt in, so you can do it or not.

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Yeah, but if you do it, you reduce the fungibility of everything else.

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If this scheme becomes very successful, in every transaction, you have a lot of

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Satoshis that are not fungible anymore.

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And so all the other Satoshis, they will lose, uh, uh, fungibility set, basically.

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And then you will also damage privacy because people that applies, uh,

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chain analysis heuristic, they will be able to add a new heuristic.

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Like now, I assume.

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That this is the change.

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This is the payment.

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I assume that all the inputs are from the same person, but I also assume

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that people will try to preserve the first Satoshi with the first Satoshi

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and the second with the second.

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So I can easily undo a CoinJoin because now there is no CoinJoin anymore.

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Like this output here must be this because this is a Satoshi that people doesn't want

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to lose in exchange for another Satoshi.

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So for example, you cannot have CoinJoin anymore.

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You cannot have Lightning Routing anymore.

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Because if you, in Lightning, you put Satoshi's into UTXO, assuming this, uh,

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this meta protocol, and then Satoshi stays there from a non chain perspective,

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but actually they get exchanged from the point of view of routing, and

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the ordinal theory cannot track this.

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So you lose this information completely.

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So, uh, these, uh, These collored coin schemes, they

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were problematic for privacy.

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Also, they were problematic for the divisibility, because if you

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want to represent money, uh, 2.

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1 quadrillion of unity seems like And now for at least the next couple of

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thousands of years, but if you want to represent literally everything like it

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was the theory, you can represent, uh, stocks, uh, bonds, uh, bonus points, uh,

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uh, higher for higher, uh, higher miles.

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Our time of cell phones, if you want to represent everything that

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is represented in a, in, in Google spreadsheet or Microsoft Excel right now

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using, uh, unfungible Satoshis, now 2.

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1 quadrillion runs out pretty, pretty quick, even just assuming

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the, uh, discount, uh, operation of the major supermarket in Europe.

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So there was a problem of divisibility.

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Then people started to say, instead of doing the single Satoshi tracking, which

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is unsustainable, we can just do something else, like in every transaction, we write

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something in a transaction, we encode some information, just like imagine that we are

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sending bank wires and we use the Swift.

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protocol to play, uh, to play, um, basically some chess game.

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So I put, uh, uh, like Bishop in C3 in the Zwift protocol and we play a game.

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This is inefficient, but I mean, uh, as long as, as long as SEPA wires are free.

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Why not to do that?

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We can do that.

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This has some advantages for privacy, for example, uh, compared to, to the

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Colorect coin idea, and it's more divisible because now you can, in

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single UTXO with, let's say, 3 million of satoshis, can actually contain 3

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billions of these arbitrary units.

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So stuff evolved from that 2012 idea very far from there.

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And the latest evolution in, not just chronologically, but also in my opinion,

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from a point of view of maturity of the idea, is what I called RGB in 2018,

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which is basically Let's just use a Bitcoin transaction that can send Bitcoin

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to other people for other purposes.

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Let's just use them for what they do very well, which is avoiding double spending.

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So following the theory that Peter Todd called the single use seal.

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So the Bitcoin transaction is just a.

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untradeable spending, uh, kind of seal that you close around something

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and then all the relevant data, you put them completely off of chain and

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off band and you pass it in a peer to peer network that is not Bitcoin.

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So the, the, what are ordinals actually and why they are retarded?

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Basically a couple of years ago, Somebody, coming from the shitcoin

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wars, rediscovered the same idea of 2012, instead of making a, a, a, like

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a prior art research and just saying this old idea was cool, I fixed it

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somehow, the problems that made it fail in 2012, they just completely ignored

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the story, and even more, the people Uh, following this idea, they were

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completely unaware of the Bitcoin story, completely unaware of the trade offs,

190
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of the problems, of the reasons that people didn't like the idea originally,

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uh, of the consequences on the up return wars, uh, back in 2000, 2013, 2014.

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So there were a lot of, uh, uh, there was a big chunk of Bitcoin history.

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Completely deleted, uh, for the typical eternal September, uh, effect.

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So these people are coming now.

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They are coming from usually shit coins.

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They're coming from other kind of stuff.

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They don't know Bitcoin history.

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We are not very well organized and equipped to transmit it probably because,

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uh, uh, there is, I mean, there is a BitMEX research that they has, they have

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a great Uh, article about the OpReturn, uh, war, uh, you can find, uh, uh, uh,

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Bitcoin talk is still indexed on Google.

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You can search it so you can find stuff.

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That's true, but there is not an easy way to say, okay, I have this idea.

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Let's see, uh, organically if it was already discussed.

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And you know, there is the law in Bitcoin that everything that seems new.

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Was already discussed in between Turkey 2013 and usually proposed first by

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Gregory Maxwell and usually, usually also killed first by Gregory Maxwell.

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So, uh, the rule is, is um, is, well this is a, an exception because the

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proposal was not Gregory, but one of the people killing it was actually Gregory.

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And, uh, so the, I use them, uh, in Prague in my speech.

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I use the words, uh, the word, uh, retarded, not just to trigger

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political correctness, but also to, uh, sin signify that this is.

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Just coming late, all this debate was already had, and all the objections

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that we can make, and we will make them, they were already being made.

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So, in my opinion, the hype of ordinals, they were not just a problem.

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Because of the issues of this scheme for privacy, for divisibility,

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and for everything else.

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They were a problem because they were a symptom of a very

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strong eternal September effect.

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So the fact that you think, so I started to read articles about Ordinance

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being the only innovation in Bitcoin.

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So an idea already proposed, implemented, and rejected by the community to several

223
00:14:26,304 --> 00:14:31,534
degrees in 2012, and an idea that was already used as a stepping stone to,

224
00:14:31,694 --> 00:14:35,584
to actually move away from that idea in completely different research lines.

225
00:14:35,954 --> 00:14:37,324
That is innovation.

226
00:14:37,454 --> 00:14:40,644
So just go going back, reproducing the same thing,

227
00:14:40,654 --> 00:14:42,134
ignoring completely the history.

228
00:14:42,394 --> 00:14:47,064
So for me, ordinals were not just a problem in themselves because I don't

229
00:14:47,064 --> 00:14:52,114
think they, uh, I think that eventually it's true that if a ordinal theory

230
00:14:52,394 --> 00:14:56,974
gets widespread, widespread, you lose privacy, but it's also true, it's

231
00:14:56,974 --> 00:14:58,674
also true that if you need privacy.

232
00:14:58,914 --> 00:15:02,274
That need will destroy Ordinal Theory because people will need Lightning

233
00:15:02,274 --> 00:15:05,934
Network, they will need CoinJoin, and so they cannot track Satoshi because

234
00:15:05,944 --> 00:15:07,774
they need fungibility to his money.

235
00:15:08,014 --> 00:15:09,244
So it's the other way around.

236
00:15:09,244 --> 00:15:13,414
I think that the need for privacy and divisibility will make it fail

237
00:15:13,414 --> 00:15:16,184
again and again like it was in 2012.

238
00:15:16,514 --> 00:15:22,019
But what really triggered me was not The, the proposal, it was the complete, uh,

239
00:15:22,669 --> 00:15:27,429
misunderstanding of the, of the history of Bitcoin that, that, uh, uh, portrays

240
00:15:27,559 --> 00:15:32,779
these proposal as something new, as a novelty, as innovation, when it's actually

241
00:15:32,799 --> 00:15:37,089
going back, uh, to ignore all the steps that we had done in the last years.

242
00:15:37,339 --> 00:15:42,249
So for me, the retardedness was not just a cognitive, uh, point, but

243
00:15:42,249 --> 00:15:43,849
it was also a chronological point.

244
00:15:44,019 --> 00:15:45,649
We're just, we're just coming.

245
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:47,929
This is, this debate is coming too late.

246
00:15:48,169 --> 00:15:49,289
We already solved it.

247
00:15:49,539 --> 00:15:50,779
And there are no new elements.

248
00:15:50,829 --> 00:15:54,379
The only new elements are, uh, I mean, there are new elements.

249
00:15:54,419 --> 00:15:55,479
That, that would be unfair.

250
00:15:55,709 --> 00:16:00,259
The new elements are basically the fact that there was a, um, uh, an idea that

251
00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:05,529
was already, um, uh, used in Bitcoin with counterparty, rally papers, that

252
00:16:05,529 --> 00:16:07,499
this idea of digital collectibles.

253
00:16:07,789 --> 00:16:15,319
This idea was a niche in the back in 2012, 2013, and now during the cycle of 2021,

254
00:16:15,359 --> 00:16:18,659
it became the new mainstream buzzword.

255
00:16:18,929 --> 00:16:21,979
So if ICOs were the buzzword in 2017.

256
00:16:22,934 --> 00:16:26,054
Uh, NFTs were the buzzword in 2021.

257
00:16:26,324 --> 00:16:30,004
So that's the only new, uh, thing, uh, at the social layer.

258
00:16:30,284 --> 00:16:34,744
Uh, there was an interest by noobs into an idea that was already broken.

259
00:16:35,084 --> 00:16:40,354
This idea had his new primetime, then it died again, basically, in shitcoins.

260
00:16:40,414 --> 00:16:42,044
So NFTs became the thing.

261
00:16:42,294 --> 00:16:48,064
And that you remember, like, um, the metaverse, I mean, Jack Dorsey selling

262
00:16:48,084 --> 00:16:49,804
the tweet and everything was like.

263
00:16:50,104 --> 00:16:51,004
Incredibly big.

264
00:16:51,024 --> 00:16:53,074
And then everything basically disappeared.

265
00:16:53,554 --> 00:16:58,564
So this idea of I do that on Bitcoin was also, was from a sociological

266
00:16:58,564 --> 00:17:03,844
point of view, was a way to keep alive a hive that was dying because

267
00:17:03,854 --> 00:17:05,604
NFTs on shitcoins are dying.

268
00:17:05,884 --> 00:17:08,884
So we need a new narrative to keep our NFT alive.

269
00:17:09,104 --> 00:17:12,644
And a new narrative was, what if we do the same, but on Bitcoin?

270
00:17:13,304 --> 00:17:18,394
That's very, very new, except that exactly how it started back in the days.

271
00:17:19,519 --> 00:17:26,109
Yeah, and, uh, doing it on Bitcoin, like, sort of goes against their own

272
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:31,539
previous narratives because it sort of validates Bitcoin as the, the thing.

273
00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:35,829
Uh, so if, if you're gonna scam me, scam me on Bitcoin because that's, uh,

274
00:17:36,269 --> 00:17:41,109
uh, at least I know that the Satoshi is worth something in the future.

275
00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:41,989
It does.

276
00:17:42,199 --> 00:17:45,559
And this is also one of the reasons that I think this is a problematic point

277
00:17:45,569 --> 00:17:49,489
though, because from one point of view, it does validate what we always say.

278
00:17:49,489 --> 00:17:54,579
So basically you, you, you add a narrative that shit coins were new

279
00:17:54,649 --> 00:17:56,649
and Bitcoin was old dinosaur tech.

280
00:17:56,679 --> 00:17:57,749
That was your narrative.

281
00:17:57,999 --> 00:18:01,629
And now your narrative is, is wait, we're not dead yet.

282
00:18:02,364 --> 00:18:03,834
We can do the same, but on Bitcoin.

283
00:18:04,284 --> 00:18:05,574
So this is the novelty.

284
00:18:05,694 --> 00:18:08,874
So first Bitcoin was the old tech, and now it's the novelty.

285
00:18:09,084 --> 00:18:13,014
So it's clearly a capitalization on the narrative point of view, but that's also

286
00:18:13,014 --> 00:18:17,994
one reason why people in the Bitcoin camp, people passionate about Bitcoin

287
00:18:17,999 --> 00:18:23,894
and caring about Bitcoin felt not, uh, trigger like me about something retarded

288
00:18:23,894 --> 00:18:25,784
going on, but actually flatter it.

289
00:18:25,814 --> 00:18:27,884
Like if is they're recognizing.

290
00:18:28,139 --> 00:18:31,569
That Bitcoin is actually the cool thing, uh, even if they're recognizing

291
00:18:31,569 --> 00:18:35,289
that for a very misguided reason, they're still saying that I'm cool.

292
00:18:35,509 --> 00:18:38,799
So these people, these shitcoiners, they were saying that we were dinosaur

293
00:18:38,859 --> 00:18:44,689
tech, and now they're calling this old 2012 idea novelty and innovation.

294
00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:45,789
I mean, I'm flattered.

295
00:18:46,274 --> 00:18:49,574
I mean, I love you guys, come back and yeah, call me new,

296
00:18:49,604 --> 00:18:51,164
call me innovative, please.

297
00:18:51,714 --> 00:18:55,054
So there was this, this thirst to be recognized.

298
00:18:55,674 --> 00:19:01,304
So this, I don't know, something like, uh, if you have, uh, your enemy calling

299
00:19:01,304 --> 00:19:07,354
you a good name for the wrong reason, uh, uh, you, you, you feel flattered and

300
00:19:07,354 --> 00:19:12,104
you accept it and you enable the wrong reason because now you feel flattered.

301
00:19:12,134 --> 00:19:15,504
So many Bitcoiners lower their bullshit detector.

302
00:19:15,749 --> 00:19:20,269
Um, settings, because, uh, these, what you're describing is true.

303
00:19:20,489 --> 00:19:25,159
There was a narrative capitulation in favor of Bitcoin, and that basically

304
00:19:25,179 --> 00:19:31,219
made everybody way less skeptical, not just of bullshit, but also of possible.

305
00:19:31,834 --> 00:19:37,364
Intentional attacks, which is a conspiracy theory, Pandora's box that we

306
00:19:37,364 --> 00:19:39,534
can open eventually in the discussion.

307
00:19:40,774 --> 00:19:44,194
The metaphor I'm thinking of here is that like, uh, most people don't know

308
00:19:44,194 --> 00:19:49,204
that more time passed between this, the, the extension of extinction of

309
00:19:49,684 --> 00:19:55,914
thete ofor and the T-Rex than between the T-Rex and humanity like . So

310
00:19:55,914 --> 00:19:57,474
they're getting the recordation wrong.

311
00:19:58,084 --> 00:20:04,766
So, so . I tried to like, you're obviously way more knowledgeable about the technical

312
00:20:04,766 --> 00:20:09,096
stuff than me, but I tried to make a tweet about this and try to, I've been trying to

313
00:20:09,096 --> 00:20:16,548
find like a way to condense this, why this is, uh, why there are a scam and the thing

314
00:20:16,998 --> 00:20:21,558
I came up with it and I want you to like, uh, devil's advocate this thing and, uh,

315
00:20:21,578 --> 00:20:27,363
and, uh, try to like point out where I'm wrong here, but as, As I see it, Satoshi,

316
00:20:27,623 --> 00:20:34,923
as you say, Satoshis don't exist, they do exist in our heads, like, it's, but it's

317
00:20:34,923 --> 00:20:40,463
not just data, it's something else, it's connected to the human being, so, because,

318
00:20:41,033 --> 00:20:45,533
like, you need a private key to unlock them, so the Satoshi is really just a

319
00:20:45,533 --> 00:20:52,273
measurement to which extent you're allowed to change the network structure by, uh,

320
00:20:53,213 --> 00:20:55,403
You, you know, spending, uh, Bitcoin.

321
00:20:55,874 --> 00:21:01,794
and the, like, the, uh, the, the arbitrary data is in the op return thing, right?

322
00:21:01,799 --> 00:21:05,004
So it's not connected to the Satoshi, but to the, to the

323
00:21:05,004 --> 00:21:06,414
Coinbase transaction, right?

324
00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:11,684
And so, so when you move those Satoshis, like what, what happens really?

325
00:21:11,689 --> 00:21:14,114
Because you can't move the arbitrary data.

326
00:21:14,114 --> 00:21:17,774
You can only move the Satoshis, which don't exist, uh,

327
00:21:18,254 --> 00:21:18,584
So.

328
00:21:18,914 --> 00:21:19,804
So how does this work?

329
00:21:19,804 --> 00:21:24,784
These Ordinal's people, do they, do they take all this data and, and

330
00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:30,974
like, how do they move it to the next, uh, next place in the blockchain?

331
00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:32,874
Like, or time chain?

332
00:21:32,904 --> 00:21:35,344
How, uh, how does this work?

333
00:21:35,694 --> 00:21:37,104
They just copy paste it?

334
00:21:37,274 --> 00:21:38,674
Like, like everything else?

335
00:21:39,314 --> 00:21:39,914
That's that.

336
00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:46,472
So now I will play David's advocate against your issue, but it's

337
00:21:46,472 --> 00:21:49,292
important to clarify that now we are introducing a new buzzword.

338
00:21:49,512 --> 00:21:54,102
So ordinates were just a new name for the old way to track satoshis.

339
00:21:55,342 --> 00:21:58,502
Or, or pretend that you're tracking and make pretend.

340
00:21:58,757 --> 00:22:01,067
to track satoshis, uh, with some problems.

341
00:22:01,427 --> 00:22:06,037
Now, on top of that, um, the idea was the idea of inscriptions.

342
00:22:06,427 --> 00:22:09,537
So, uh, why should they track some satoshi?

343
00:22:09,547 --> 00:22:10,287
Nobody cares.

344
00:22:10,517 --> 00:22:13,457
Well, one reason could be that this satoshi is connected to some

345
00:22:13,457 --> 00:22:14,687
transaction, which is important.

346
00:22:14,697 --> 00:22:17,797
For example, let's say that we're tracking satoshi from the first

347
00:22:17,817 --> 00:22:22,312
half Finney, Transaction from, uh, from, uh, Satoshi himself, or we are

348
00:22:22,312 --> 00:22:26,922
tracking the first Satoshi from a new difficulty era or from a new halving.

349
00:22:27,162 --> 00:22:33,202
So there are like, uh, uh, some kind of different, uh, uh, tiers of rarity, which

350
00:22:33,202 --> 00:22:37,092
are depending on the system itself from, uh, they are depending, uh, directly

351
00:22:37,102 --> 00:22:39,872
from the blockchain, uh, time chain.

352
00:22:40,092 --> 00:22:43,002
Uh, kind of, uh, intrinsic characteristic.

353
00:22:43,502 --> 00:22:48,402
What if we can make some of this satoshi connected to psychologically

354
00:22:48,422 --> 00:22:51,812
connected to something else, for example, with inscriptions.

355
00:22:51,912 --> 00:22:56,962
So we use a technique that was already existed and unrelated to ordinals

356
00:22:57,242 --> 00:22:58,842
and unrelated to colored coins.

357
00:22:59,052 --> 00:23:01,642
It was used, for example, in eternity wall.

358
00:23:01,952 --> 00:23:07,382
Was a cool website created by my friend Ricardo Kata in 2016 and 17.

359
00:23:07,892 --> 00:23:08,922
Oh yeah, I remember that.

360
00:23:09,542 --> 00:23:10,262
remember it was cool.

361
00:23:10,262 --> 00:23:11,822
It was Twitter on chain.

362
00:23:11,822 --> 00:23:15,392
So you pay your transaction to write something on a return, then

363
00:23:15,392 --> 00:23:17,342
you can answer, you go to answer.

364
00:23:17,342 --> 00:23:21,182
And then there is a link in which the first output will basically pay the

365
00:23:21,182 --> 00:23:22,712
previous, uh, the previous output.

366
00:23:22,712 --> 00:23:25,412
And so basically you will create on chain a graph.

367
00:23:25,917 --> 00:23:26,697
Of answers.

368
00:23:26,697 --> 00:23:29,937
And you can also put like, and if you put, like, you will spend

369
00:23:29,937 --> 00:23:31,977
a few Satoshis to like a tweet.

370
00:23:32,307 --> 00:23:35,967
So the, the, it was there were, the, the main point of eternity

371
00:23:35,967 --> 00:23:40,197
wall was this tweet will never be deleted, so they remain forever.

372
00:23:40,377 --> 00:23:42,747
So they, they were especially love letters.

373
00:23:43,262 --> 00:23:48,942
Or hate letters was the two strongest sentiments that you want to last forever

374
00:23:49,522 --> 00:23:51,112
or to pretend they will last forever.

375
00:23:51,412 --> 00:23:56,472
And, um, so alternative world was cool, uh, but it was unrelated to ordinance.

376
00:23:56,512 --> 00:23:57,892
There was no ordinal theory.

377
00:23:57,892 --> 00:24:02,842
It was just this, the only meta protocol was this answer idea in

378
00:24:02,842 --> 00:24:05,012
which we interpret the sum of return.

379
00:24:05,552 --> 00:24:11,692
Uh, in the same transaction, paying to some outputs as a graph of trading in

380
00:24:11,712 --> 00:24:13,602
Twitter when you answer to something.

381
00:24:14,022 --> 00:24:16,712
So that was an unrelated kind of thing.

382
00:24:16,992 --> 00:24:20,082
And inscriptions are the idea of bringing these together.

383
00:24:20,362 --> 00:24:24,792
So instead of just saying that this Satoshi is more rare because of

384
00:24:24,792 --> 00:24:30,252
something, uh, like the difficulty period or the, or the halving period.

385
00:24:30,392 --> 00:24:34,252
We say that it's scarce because it's connected to the encoding

386
00:24:34,282 --> 00:24:35,492
that I put in the op return.

387
00:24:35,742 --> 00:24:40,492
So I write hello in the op return, and now when I use the original

388
00:24:40,502 --> 00:24:45,232
theory on top of the encoding, I will move my hello to somebody.

389
00:24:45,652 --> 00:24:51,222
So this doesn't make any sense, but the argument would be that, yes, but

390
00:24:51,222 --> 00:24:53,552
that was not making any sense already.

391
00:24:53,802 --> 00:24:57,867
So if we are already pretending that something which is not Technically

392
00:24:57,917 --> 00:25:02,847
distinguishable or distinct like Satoshi is moving from this address to

393
00:25:02,847 --> 00:25:04,367
this address, which is not the case.

394
00:25:04,717 --> 00:25:08,667
So basically if we are pretending that Bitcoin is account based where you can

395
00:25:08,667 --> 00:25:12,787
move some asset in some different account, then what's the, what's the problem

396
00:25:12,787 --> 00:25:17,047
in to pretending on top of that, that now you are moving some kind of moral

397
00:25:17,097 --> 00:25:20,197
ownership of the sentence or an image.

398
00:25:20,457 --> 00:25:24,207
So I say a sentence like, Merry Christmas to everybody.

399
00:25:24,557 --> 00:25:26,307
Now, there is no.

400
00:25:26,532 --> 00:25:29,582
technical way to own this sentence because the sentence is

401
00:25:29,582 --> 00:25:33,952
information and it's replicated in everybody's head when they read it.

402
00:25:33,952 --> 00:25:37,042
There is no concept of ownership which can be defined.

403
00:25:37,402 --> 00:25:42,372
But if we are already able to make up concepts that are not technically

404
00:25:42,412 --> 00:25:44,622
consistent, Why, why stop to one?

405
00:25:45,092 --> 00:25:47,902
Why, why do we have to stop to transfer the Satoshi?

406
00:25:48,092 --> 00:25:51,202
Let's also transfer the ownership of the Merry Christmas.

407
00:25:51,622 --> 00:25:52,772
It doesn't make any sense.

408
00:25:53,242 --> 00:25:56,642
And, uh, so that's a good philosophical distinction.

409
00:25:56,962 --> 00:26:01,712
So why can we, when you say that Bitcoin is an agreement, that's very interesting

410
00:26:01,712 --> 00:26:05,557
because, uh, Everything basically that we do is an agreement, everything is some

411
00:26:05,557 --> 00:26:11,297
kind of convention, but there is a subtle line between conventional and arbitrary.

412
00:26:12,147 --> 00:26:16,957
Conventional is like, we have to agree on something to make it real, we have to act

413
00:26:17,247 --> 00:26:21,757
upon a certain agreement, upon a certain convention to make it real, but it's not

414
00:26:21,757 --> 00:26:26,212
arbitrary in the sense that If there are reasons, the convention is made like this

415
00:26:26,372 --> 00:26:28,122
and not in a completely different way.

416
00:26:28,432 --> 00:26:31,792
When people talk about money, for example, there is this meme

417
00:26:31,802 --> 00:26:33,712
that money is a shared delusion.

418
00:26:34,102 --> 00:26:40,962
Uh, this is a Somehow deep, somehow dumb mean is deep because it takes

419
00:26:41,332 --> 00:26:46,142
in the conventional side of money, but it's dumb because it makes money

420
00:26:46,182 --> 00:26:50,252
arbitrary, like a money with a different kind of scarcity, different kind

421
00:26:50,252 --> 00:26:53,932
of disability, a different kind of recognizability that didn't matter.

422
00:26:54,162 --> 00:26:57,942
So gold was money, but sushi could have been money as well.

423
00:26:58,252 --> 00:27:02,482
No, that's not true because the objective external characteristics of Sushi

424
00:27:02,672 --> 00:27:08,072
were making the arbitrary choice of using Sushi as money, uh, objectively

425
00:27:08,202 --> 00:27:12,412
worse than the other, uh, choice, conventional choice of using gold.

426
00:27:12,742 --> 00:27:17,012
So, the point is that if people think that Bitcoin is not just an agreement.

427
00:27:17,347 --> 00:27:21,687
But it's an arbitrary agreement that it is like that, but it could be just like that.

428
00:27:21,967 --> 00:27:24,767
Then they can add other arbitrary agreements of top.

429
00:27:25,017 --> 00:27:30,757
One is, let's assume that Satoshis are trackable with this arbitrary convention.

430
00:27:31,047 --> 00:27:33,387
This is arbitrary and not just conventional because

431
00:27:33,487 --> 00:27:35,517
it's technically inconsistent.

432
00:27:35,717 --> 00:27:37,467
So you, you will lose information.

433
00:27:37,477 --> 00:27:39,377
You will break information.

434
00:27:39,377 --> 00:27:41,127
You will break how the system works.

435
00:27:41,327 --> 00:27:42,167
So it's not just.

436
00:27:42,687 --> 00:27:46,357
Arbitrary, but it's wrong in a kind of objective way.

437
00:27:46,367 --> 00:27:50,297
It will break down the system in a, in a way that is not functional.

438
00:27:50,567 --> 00:27:54,207
And what you're describing just one small step of imagination more.

439
00:27:54,777 --> 00:27:59,407
Let's also move around Merry Christmas, the sentence, you can't.

440
00:27:59,872 --> 00:28:05,342
But if, if everybody pretend that they can, so it's like, uh, you know, uh,

441
00:28:05,552 --> 00:28:10,902
there were, so you are not religious, uh, or in a conventional way, but you

442
00:28:10,952 --> 00:28:16,202
have to know that somebody in, in, in eBay, in, uh, it was, uh, I think it was,

443
00:28:16,267 --> 00:28:21,787
Well, I, I, I act as if Bitcoin exists, to paraphrase Peterson.

444
00:28:21,787 --> 00:28:24,137
So that's, that's the extent of my religiousness.

445
00:28:24,167 --> 00:28:28,797
But in a traditional sense, you may be skeptical about Deville, the Deville

446
00:28:28,807 --> 00:28:31,477
buying souls for Deville contracts, right?

447
00:28:31,747 --> 00:28:36,747
But you have to know that in PayPal, there was a moment, I think it was around 2002,

448
00:28:36,857 --> 00:28:40,917
I don't remember, but with my friends in high school, we were watching that, and

449
00:28:40,977 --> 00:28:43,867
people started to sell souls on eBay.

450
00:28:44,792 --> 00:28:49,402
So there were people saying, I sell my soul and just for the lulz, somebody

451
00:28:49,402 --> 00:28:51,962
else was buying those like 3 for a soul.

452
00:28:52,252 --> 00:28:55,062
And PayPal had to actually, I don't remember the details.

453
00:28:55,252 --> 00:28:59,592
I have to research this, but I remember PayPal basically stopping some of the

454
00:28:59,592 --> 00:29:03,722
trades, like if you, if you cannot donate organs or something like that.

455
00:29:04,132 --> 00:29:06,072
So this is another example.

456
00:29:06,092 --> 00:29:11,432
So there is no way we can meaningfully sell your soul.

457
00:29:11,722 --> 00:29:13,092
On, um, on Paypal.

458
00:29:13,362 --> 00:29:14,402
Oh, sorry, on eBay.

459
00:29:14,852 --> 00:29:17,712
Uh, there is no trivial way to do it, but, uh

460
00:29:17,717 --> 00:29:18,977
Satoshis, please.

461
00:29:19,593 --> 00:29:20,013
Exactly.

462
00:29:21,153 --> 00:29:26,323
So we can make a convention that I'm selling my soul to you that will

463
00:29:26,323 --> 00:29:30,893
not have any impact or on anything which is consistent to anything.

464
00:29:30,913 --> 00:29:32,153
So it's totally arbitrary.

465
00:29:32,403 --> 00:29:36,563
You can say, uh, after a while, you can say, no, I changed my mind and now I

466
00:29:36,563 --> 00:29:40,633
exit the agreement and there will be no way to enforce the agreement on you, uh,

467
00:29:40,673 --> 00:29:43,033
socially or technically or economically.

468
00:29:43,423 --> 00:29:44,263
So it's just.

469
00:29:44,583 --> 00:29:50,903
A game, just a LARP, uh, so Satoshi transfers is the same and, um, and

470
00:29:50,913 --> 00:29:57,643
transferring an image or transferring a, sorry, transferring the ownership on a

471
00:29:57,663 --> 00:30:03,983
public image or the ownership on a public sentence is just, um, it is just a dream.

472
00:30:03,983 --> 00:30:05,163
It's just an imagination.

473
00:30:05,473 --> 00:30:06,393
Interestingly enough.

474
00:30:06,743 --> 00:30:09,743
Somebody could say, wait, but that's patent as well.

475
00:30:10,043 --> 00:30:14,593
If you are like copyright on a song, I, I go around, I whistle the song, right?

476
00:30:14,803 --> 00:30:15,763
I whistle the song.

477
00:30:16,093 --> 00:30:20,413
And now this song will, you will listen to it and it will change something in

478
00:30:20,413 --> 00:30:22,273
your brain, which is your property.

479
00:30:22,483 --> 00:30:27,043
So now you can reproduce the song arbitrarily, but somehow that's the

480
00:30:27,043 --> 00:30:28,273
fact that your brain is changed.

481
00:30:29,038 --> 00:30:30,228
is now my property.

482
00:30:30,228 --> 00:30:33,628
So I own that piece of your brain that can reproduce the song.

483
00:30:33,648 --> 00:30:36,168
So now you have to pay me every time you used it.

484
00:30:36,528 --> 00:30:39,448
You didn't enter an agreement with me when you listened to the song.

485
00:30:39,458 --> 00:30:42,328
You just turned on the radio without entering any agreement.

486
00:30:42,618 --> 00:30:44,018
The radio changed your brain.

487
00:30:44,018 --> 00:30:47,078
Now I own that part of your brain without your consent.

488
00:30:47,448 --> 00:30:48,308
So this is corporate.

489
00:30:48,358 --> 00:30:49,388
It doesn't make any sense.

490
00:30:49,798 --> 00:30:54,838
But, uh, in this case, we can make it affect reality with guns.

491
00:30:55,368 --> 00:31:00,723
So when a mafia with guns Take some arbitrary, uh, meaningless,

492
00:31:00,733 --> 00:31:06,723
inconsistent, uh, agreement, uh, and they enforce it with guns, you

493
00:31:06,763 --> 00:31:08,853
can make it exist for some time.

494
00:31:09,003 --> 00:31:11,913
It's not a good existence, it will ruin a lot of things economically,

495
00:31:12,043 --> 00:31:14,173
it will be a negative some game.

496
00:31:14,568 --> 00:31:16,358
But it will exist in reality.

497
00:31:16,708 --> 00:31:20,668
The problem, but also the beautiful thing in Bitcoin, is that people cannot

498
00:31:20,688 --> 00:31:25,428
come to you and shoot you if you, if you reuse the Merry Christmas sentence

499
00:31:25,438 --> 00:31:26,748
that you read on the opera turn.

500
00:31:27,008 --> 00:31:32,548
Or if you, if you right click a frog image from, uh, encoded in an opera turn.

501
00:31:32,798 --> 00:31:37,658
So, in that sense, it's completely stupid, because, luckily, there

502
00:31:37,658 --> 00:31:41,198
is nobody with guns that can prevent you from right clicking.

503
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,380
Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp.

504
00:31:45,671 --> 00:31:50,001
After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we

505
00:31:50,001 --> 00:31:53,406
would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode

506
00:31:53,406 --> 00:31:57,496
with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit,

507
00:31:57,746 --> 00:32:01,676
and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always

508
00:32:01,676 --> 00:32:05,766
says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

509
00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:08,429
The big news about AmberApp is that they're going to be

510
00:32:08,429 --> 00:32:10,239
launching their version 2.

511
00:32:10,456 --> 00:32:13,966
I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic.

512
00:32:14,261 --> 00:32:18,072
They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an

513
00:32:18,092 --> 00:32:22,343
anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going

514
00:32:22,343 --> 00:32:23,683
to be an exchange, of course.

515
00:32:23,924 --> 00:32:26,826
it's going to be just this super app,  They're also going

516
00:32:26,826 --> 00:32:28,176
to be launching globally.

517
00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:29,746
Everyone's going to be able to use it.

518
00:32:29,986 --> 00:32:31,716
we're really excited about all that.

519
00:32:31,846 --> 00:32:34,486
Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it.

520
00:32:34,686 --> 00:32:37,036
And for now, check out their website, amber.

521
00:32:37,286 --> 00:32:39,996
app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

522
00:32:40,303 --> 00:32:41,842
Next up WasabiWallet.

523
00:32:42,082 --> 00:32:45,532
The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin

524
00:32:45,532 --> 00:32:47,242
wallet with CoinJoin built in.

525
00:32:47,822 --> 00:32:51,812
It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private.

526
00:32:52,377 --> 00:32:55,387
And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app.

527
00:32:55,697 --> 00:32:58,647
They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced

528
00:32:58,757 --> 00:33:01,307
features for power users, they just keep getting better.

529
00:33:01,827 --> 00:33:05,307
You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of

530
00:33:05,307 --> 00:33:09,427
other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end.

531
00:33:09,967 --> 00:33:13,477
Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint

532
00:33:13,627 --> 00:33:15,307
without worrying about your privacy.

533
00:33:16,187 --> 00:33:17,097
So, check out wasabiwallet.

534
00:33:17,097 --> 00:33:20,267
io and download Wasabi today.

535
00:33:20,493 --> 00:33:24,383
This, this reminds me of a birthday gift we gave to my

536
00:33:24,433 --> 00:33:26,743
grandmother like 30 years ago.

537
00:33:26,993 --> 00:33:31,693
She's long since passed, but we gave her a star, because there was

538
00:33:31,693 --> 00:33:36,323
this website where you could buy the, uh, the, um, property rights.

539
00:33:36,853 --> 00:33:38,623
Or the copyright or whatever.

540
00:33:38,623 --> 00:33:44,093
You could name a star and buy a certificate that said you owned the star.

541
00:33:44,563 --> 00:33:47,453
And to me, this is exactly what these things are.

542
00:33:47,683 --> 00:33:53,223
Like, uh, the reason that I describe Bitcoin as an agreement, like, it's

543
00:33:53,483 --> 00:33:55,063
not only that, it's an agreement.

544
00:33:55,343 --> 00:34:01,058
The only reason that we agree on these rules Is because these rules make it,

545
00:34:01,328 --> 00:34:04,958
uh, more expensive to try to cheat the system than to play by the rules.

546
00:34:04,988 --> 00:34:08,048
That's, that's the reason we agree on these rules.

547
00:34:08,798 --> 00:34:11,318
So anything outside of those rules aren't really Bitcoin.

548
00:34:11,648 --> 00:34:12,728
It's, it's something else.

549
00:34:12,733 --> 00:34:19,366
And . And so, so owning one of these JPEGs is, or owning, quote unquote.

550
00:34:19,901 --> 00:34:26,861
It's just like that star registry thing, uh, it's, it's, it's there, it, I mean,

551
00:34:26,871 --> 00:34:32,901
the star is, um, a bit trickier and a bit more ownable because you need, uh,

552
00:34:32,941 --> 00:34:37,421
a telescope to see it because all the stars you can see have already been named.

553
00:34:37,421 --> 00:34:42,111
So, so this was a star that was far away, but, uh, But, uh, and it's

554
00:34:42,131 --> 00:34:45,681
there, and it's there for everyone to see, and your property rights to

555
00:34:45,681 --> 00:34:49,101
it don't really do anything, because you can't do anything with a star.

556
00:34:49,531 --> 00:34:51,061
and it's the same with a JPEG.

557
00:34:51,111 --> 00:34:55,851
Like, it's even, even easier for everyone to see that, because

558
00:34:55,861 --> 00:34:57,411
it's an open public ledger.

559
00:34:57,441 --> 00:35:02,881
Everyone can see everything in it, so any arbitrary data on it is just not ownable.

560
00:35:03,181 --> 00:35:07,571
Like, the only thing, and you could argue that a Satoshi is not Ownable either.

561
00:35:07,601 --> 00:35:10,401
I mean, it's not even real or a private key.

562
00:35:10,631 --> 00:35:14,981
Like it's just a number that the only thing that you attach, the reason you

563
00:35:14,981 --> 00:35:19,801
attach value to it is that, you know, how hard it is to like, just guess the

564
00:35:19,801 --> 00:35:22,381
number it'll take you millions of years.

565
00:35:22,391 --> 00:35:24,471
So that's why you find it valuable.

566
00:35:24,771 --> 00:35:25,756
But these things.

567
00:35:26,336 --> 00:35:30,836
I mean, it's, it's a great big nothing burger or nada burgessa,

568
00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:31,866
we would say here in Spain.

569
00:35:32,686 --> 00:35:33,986
I think your analogy is perfect.

570
00:35:34,396 --> 00:35:38,726
I just want to make it a little bit worse because stars are not really used

571
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:40,416
for everything else, anything else.

572
00:35:40,526 --> 00:35:46,166
So when you name some invisible star after your grandmother, okay, that

573
00:35:46,176 --> 00:35:47,806
does not, that doesn't change reality.

574
00:35:47,806 --> 00:35:49,026
It's not enforceable.

575
00:35:49,066 --> 00:35:52,906
And I can, so it's double spendable because you can give the star to your

576
00:35:52,926 --> 00:35:54,976
grandmother and I can give the same star.

577
00:35:55,201 --> 00:35:58,521
to my grandmother and nothing will ever happen because there is no way to

578
00:35:58,521 --> 00:36:03,461
tell the difference but unless there is like a centralized enforcement but

579
00:36:03,461 --> 00:36:07,771
let's now assume that we create another website Then instead of assigning

580
00:36:07,781 --> 00:36:10,901
stars, it does assign other websites.

581
00:36:11,281 --> 00:36:15,721
So now we say, if you pay me, I will tell you that you now own coca cola.

582
00:36:15,971 --> 00:36:16,281
com.

583
00:36:16,651 --> 00:36:18,201
And this is the same level.

584
00:36:18,431 --> 00:36:20,081
So you cannot change the coca cola.

585
00:36:20,301 --> 00:36:25,731
com website because you don't have SSH access or FTP access to the domain.

586
00:36:25,931 --> 00:36:32,051
So the domain from the HTTP protocol point of view is in the hands of

587
00:36:32,051 --> 00:36:33,611
the Coca Cola corporate company.

588
00:36:33,851 --> 00:36:39,061
But in my website If you pay me, I tell you that you do own coca cola.

589
00:36:39,271 --> 00:36:39,521
com.

590
00:36:39,801 --> 00:36:42,671
So now this is not just equally meaningless.

591
00:36:42,871 --> 00:36:44,321
It's not just a nothing burger.

592
00:36:44,551 --> 00:36:48,281
This is a stupid burger because now you think you own Coca Cola, but

593
00:36:48,291 --> 00:36:52,691
actually Coca Cola people do own that in the sense that they can change it.

594
00:36:52,981 --> 00:36:57,201
So there is like an, um, uh, the, the problem with the colored coins

595
00:36:57,421 --> 00:37:04,561
or, or ordinals is that you are, uh, creating an arbitrary game.

596
00:37:04,821 --> 00:37:09,371
Which not only interfere, but also conflicts with the previous

597
00:37:09,581 --> 00:37:14,241
conventional, but not arbitrary and very consequential game that you were

598
00:37:14,271 --> 00:37:16,351
already playing on the same information.

599
00:37:16,621 --> 00:37:19,671
So we're already playing a game that was a game of money, a game of

600
00:37:19,671 --> 00:37:26,066
property with some enforceability due to Unknowable private keys, or

601
00:37:26,086 --> 00:37:31,546
unpredictable block numbers, or proof of work thermodynamical characteristics.

602
00:37:31,576 --> 00:37:34,626
So there was already a game, it was a very cool game, not an

603
00:37:34,626 --> 00:37:36,186
arbitrary game, just half assed.

604
00:37:36,186 --> 00:37:41,346
It was a very intelligent game, and now you're putting your

605
00:37:41,346 --> 00:37:43,116
nothing burger, just name a star.

606
00:37:43,501 --> 00:37:46,881
On top of conflicting with another game.

607
00:37:47,081 --> 00:37:51,251
For example, now we have Bitcoin with Lightning and we say that we create

608
00:37:51,281 --> 00:37:55,591
the channel and we move money from this channel without any on chain transaction.

609
00:37:55,921 --> 00:38:00,591
And these name a star convention, which is ordinance, they, it will conflict.

610
00:38:00,846 --> 00:38:05,926
With the, with the routing movement, because for us, we moved the money and for

611
00:38:05,936 --> 00:38:08,246
them outside, nothing happened on chain.

612
00:38:08,446 --> 00:38:11,366
So there is no way to tell where the Satoshi went.

613
00:38:11,646 --> 00:38:15,336
So it's, uh, it's, it's, it's even worse than that, but now we introduced, so we

614
00:38:15,336 --> 00:38:19,186
started the conversation with fees and now we have to get back to fees because

615
00:38:19,416 --> 00:38:24,337
once you only have, uh, since you only had these, uh, name star nothing burger or

616
00:38:24,337 --> 00:38:27,341
stupid burger, uh, moving Satoshis around.

617
00:38:27,591 --> 00:38:30,851
You at least didn't write a lot of stuff on the blockchain.

618
00:38:30,861 --> 00:38:35,271
You didn't create a lot of problems, but when you, well, some maybe, because maybe

619
00:38:35,271 --> 00:38:38,831
you're making some transactions that you were not going to make otherwise,

620
00:38:39,111 --> 00:38:42,541
but I mean, they are transactions, but when you can write arbitrary data.

621
00:38:43,191 --> 00:38:48,281
On the time chain and, and pretend to own this arbitrary data, you

622
00:38:48,281 --> 00:38:50,691
now create a serious spam problem.

623
00:38:50,981 --> 00:38:54,621
So let's go back a second to, um, to Eternity Wall.

624
00:38:55,441 --> 00:39:01,126
I would, I did use Eternity Wall and, uh, Luke Daschle was angry at Ricardo and me

625
00:39:01,126 --> 00:39:03,570
because, uh, because he said this is spam.

626
00:39:03,570 --> 00:39:05,456
And me and Ricardo were answering.

627
00:39:05,456 --> 00:39:07,161
This was, I think, 2015.

628
00:39:08,101 --> 00:39:09,311
Or 2016.

629
00:39:09,641 --> 00:39:11,161
And we said, well, why spam?

630
00:39:11,271 --> 00:39:12,981
We are paying the fee to write.

631
00:39:13,271 --> 00:39:18,121
And Luke said, oh, yes, you're paying the fee to one miner, not to my node.

632
00:39:18,211 --> 00:39:21,911
And I still have to download it and to, and to validate it and to store it if I

633
00:39:21,921 --> 00:39:23,531
want a full node, a full archival node.

634
00:39:23,791 --> 00:39:27,021
So you are using my resources for a way that I didn't agree

635
00:39:27,021 --> 00:39:28,811
with when I joined Bitcoin.

636
00:39:28,826 --> 00:39:34,166
Because I joined Bitcoin knowing that I had to, unfortunately, keep track

637
00:39:34,346 --> 00:39:38,846
of all the UTXO set, but that was a sacrifice that I did because that was

638
00:39:38,996 --> 00:39:40,856
functional to the, so it was useful to me.

639
00:39:41,466 --> 00:39:45,406
When you download all the chain, and you build your UTXO set, you

640
00:39:45,406 --> 00:39:46,946
do that for a selfish reason.

641
00:39:47,176 --> 00:39:51,196
Because even if You're, you're keeping somebody else's transaction.

642
00:39:51,616 --> 00:39:55,986
These transactions are needed to you to be able to receive that money eventually.

643
00:39:56,216 --> 00:39:59,856
So you're, you're building the UTXO set for you, for yourself.

644
00:40:00,176 --> 00:40:03,196
If you don't do it, you will not be able to distinguish which

645
00:40:03,206 --> 00:40:05,226
money has been spent or not.

646
00:40:05,546 --> 00:40:09,931
So in the future, every transaction that you actually validate, in your

647
00:40:09,931 --> 00:40:13,631
node is a transaction that could be eventually spent to you in the future.

648
00:40:13,841 --> 00:40:15,341
So you do this for selfish reasons.

649
00:40:15,761 --> 00:40:20,491
While, while Luke was downloading my Eternity Wall messages and valid

650
00:40:20,501 --> 00:40:24,811
and wasting bandwidth, wasting time and when wasting hard this

651
00:40:24,881 --> 00:40:29,971
space, it was not for his future benefit because this big up return.

652
00:40:30,211 --> 00:40:35,881
with my joking love hate messages or curse words, they were not,

653
00:40:36,151 --> 00:40:38,141
they were not useful for him.

654
00:40:38,441 --> 00:40:40,161
So he said, this is spam.

655
00:40:40,371 --> 00:40:41,781
And we had a discussion about that.

656
00:40:42,131 --> 00:40:46,121
Uh, and, and, and I, this is another case of retardedness

657
00:40:46,161 --> 00:40:48,771
because many of the discussion I'm having today about inscriptions.

658
00:40:49,616 --> 00:40:54,836
I had it about eternity wall, and my point was, if I'm paying, that's, uh, my first

659
00:40:54,836 --> 00:41:00,316
point was, if it's a valid transaction, cannot be spam, to which Luke said, wait,

660
00:41:00,656 --> 00:41:03,596
uh, email spam is always a valid email.

661
00:41:03,916 --> 00:41:06,966
The definition of validity has nothing to do with spam.

662
00:41:07,256 --> 00:41:11,286
The point of spam is that this is unwanted information for you that is

663
00:41:11,286 --> 00:41:15,076
consuming your scarce resources, but it's not that it's violating the protocol.

664
00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:17,246
And then the second point was, but we are paying.

665
00:41:17,606 --> 00:41:19,736
And Luke said, yeah, but you're not paying me.

666
00:41:19,976 --> 00:41:26,356
If you receive spam phone calls, the, the, the, the spammer, he's paying the network.

667
00:41:26,616 --> 00:41:29,286
The problem is that he's not paying you and your time to receive

668
00:41:29,286 --> 00:41:30,276
this stuff that you don't want.

669
00:41:30,516 --> 00:41:34,686
So they're disrupting you, but they're not paying you otherwise, it will not be spam.

670
00:41:34,896 --> 00:41:36,066
They're paying somebody else.

671
00:41:36,546 --> 00:41:40,056
So let's say that I, uh, let's, let's take away the telephone network.

672
00:41:40,561 --> 00:41:45,001
Even if I don't, if I have free calls, I still pay my energy that

673
00:41:45,001 --> 00:41:46,651
I put plug in my, in my cell phone.

674
00:41:46,651 --> 00:41:48,581
I pay these to the electrical company.

675
00:41:48,621 --> 00:41:52,901
So in order to call you and to, and to ruin your day with bullshit, uh, and to

676
00:41:52,911 --> 00:41:57,741
make you pranks all day, I have to pay somebody because I need the energy, but

677
00:41:57,741 --> 00:42:00,691
that doesn't mean it's not, it's not spam because I'm paying somebody else.

678
00:42:01,171 --> 00:42:02,101
I'm not paying you.

679
00:42:02,471 --> 00:42:04,611
So there was a discussion, discussion about spam.

680
00:42:04,901 --> 00:42:06,371
I think that Luke was right.

681
00:42:06,591 --> 00:42:10,741
From the philosophical point of view, but I also, we, me and Riccardo, we

682
00:42:10,741 --> 00:42:14,721
also felt it was a little bit like inconsequential because since there

683
00:42:14,721 --> 00:42:19,481
is a cost and the cost is going to go up eventually in, uh, in, uh, in time,

684
00:42:19,481 --> 00:42:21,171
the fees will go very up in Bitcoin.

685
00:42:21,171 --> 00:42:21,821
And we know that.

686
00:42:22,241 --> 00:42:25,881
So eventually this is a self mitigating problem.

687
00:42:25,881 --> 00:42:30,951
Yes, we are free riding your node, but this is going to become so expensive.

688
00:42:31,721 --> 00:42:35,861
Then we will eventually stop, uh, because the incentive for me to

689
00:42:35,861 --> 00:42:41,851
write stuff on the time chain is just Goliardic, romantic kind of, uh, I

690
00:42:42,051 --> 00:42:44,161
mean, there's no real point to do that.

691
00:42:44,171 --> 00:42:45,221
There's not real need.

692
00:42:45,531 --> 00:42:47,541
It's just like a, it's a full leisure.

693
00:42:48,126 --> 00:42:51,966
Full leisure, full, uh, full Goliardic, uh, romantic leisure.

694
00:42:52,246 --> 00:42:53,906
So we will stop it eventually.

695
00:42:54,306 --> 00:43:00,666
When you put the ordinal theory on top of this, uh, encoding on the

696
00:43:00,676 --> 00:43:02,596
time chain, now you have the problem.

697
00:43:02,856 --> 00:43:07,676
Because, uh, when I did write on Eternity Wall, I was spending some

698
00:43:07,676 --> 00:43:11,616
money, not as much as today it would be, but I was spending some money, and

699
00:43:11,616 --> 00:43:13,886
I was getting in return just some fun.

700
00:43:14,406 --> 00:43:18,416
When you do the same, but people believe that you can resell this message to

701
00:43:18,416 --> 00:43:22,866
somebody else, now I spend some money, maybe I have some fun, or maybe not

702
00:43:22,886 --> 00:43:29,346
even, but now I resell this stuff in this make believe market, I can resell it

703
00:43:29,356 --> 00:43:31,236
to other guys that have an expectation.

704
00:43:31,541 --> 00:43:33,671
of it to become even higher in price.

705
00:43:33,681 --> 00:43:38,821
So you introduce a speculation gambling, uh, policy expectations

706
00:43:39,081 --> 00:43:41,071
inside the data writing.

707
00:43:41,301 --> 00:43:46,061
This changes the dynamic because before people were writing stuff on the time

708
00:43:46,061 --> 00:43:48,491
chain that was considered spam by Luke.

709
00:43:48,631 --> 00:43:50,031
Luke was very angry about that.

710
00:43:50,516 --> 00:43:55,946
I was not, because I, I, yes, it is spam, you're right, but it's not so

711
00:43:55,946 --> 00:43:59,806
much and people will just get tired, but when you introduce the Ponzi

712
00:43:59,866 --> 00:44:04,646
expectation of a greater full theory inside the spam, so now you, you, you

713
00:44:04,666 --> 00:44:09,436
spend money for the spam, But you, if you can manage to sell the spam, you

714
00:44:09,436 --> 00:44:11,296
will make more money than you spent.

715
00:44:11,576 --> 00:44:17,656
So now you created basically a game, a bad game, a negative sum game, but you

716
00:44:17,726 --> 00:44:21,856
can create a game that is self sustainable for a while and that will basically

717
00:44:21,856 --> 00:44:27,801
create incentive for people to write Spam on the time chain because now they can

718
00:44:28,011 --> 00:44:32,881
resell like the stars is like, let's, let's try to make it, uh, to, as always,

719
00:44:32,881 --> 00:44:35,671
to abuse our metaphors to the extreme.

720
00:44:35,911 --> 00:44:41,371
So we have, we have the star registers and, uh, and now, uh, the market for star

721
00:44:41,371 --> 00:44:43,471
registers become, uh, goes in bubble.

722
00:44:43,651 --> 00:44:47,821
And so now you can name a star and then if you transfer it to somebody

723
00:44:47,821 --> 00:44:49,151
else, somebody else will pay you.

724
00:44:49,776 --> 00:44:52,776
Million times more than when you paid an initial naming.

725
00:44:53,116 --> 00:44:57,736
So now there will be basically an incentive to, uh, to send a lot of

726
00:44:58,116 --> 00:45:02,076
hydrogen in some place and to keep it together in order to create a giant star.

727
00:45:02,286 --> 00:45:06,196
And that can be destructive for the gravitational equilibrium of the world,

728
00:45:06,426 --> 00:45:08,066
but you have a strong incentive to do it.

729
00:45:08,376 --> 00:45:12,316
Now, that's not very practical, but spamming the time chain is more practical.

730
00:45:12,506 --> 00:45:13,496
And that's what's happening.

731
00:45:13,756 --> 00:45:17,126
So, let's imagine two different things.

732
00:45:17,376 --> 00:45:22,816
One thing is Creating an arbitrary idea like a star register that you

733
00:45:22,816 --> 00:45:27,181
can track something that you cannot meaningfully track because it's not

734
00:45:27,181 --> 00:45:29,326
scarce, it's infinitely reproducible.

735
00:45:29,756 --> 00:45:34,436
Now, uh, you create, you have the idea that you can write on the time chain

736
00:45:34,586 --> 00:45:38,696
whatever you want and people will be forced to download it and validate it

737
00:45:38,696 --> 00:45:40,916
and store it if they don't prune forever.

738
00:45:41,256 --> 00:45:42,966
Now you put these ideas together.

739
00:45:43,401 --> 00:45:48,401
And this is, this is where the problem happens because only writing on

740
00:45:48,401 --> 00:45:53,631
the chain, it's, it's, it is spam, it is problematic, but, uh, it's,

741
00:45:53,791 --> 00:45:55,841
it's eventually not sustainable.

742
00:45:55,841 --> 00:46:02,161
You will get tired, uh, moving around Satoshis as they are, um, uh,

743
00:46:02,181 --> 00:46:06,231
more valuable, it's a problem for fungibility, privacy, but at least

744
00:46:06,231 --> 00:46:09,391
it's not a problem for technical, uh, scarce resources of Bitcoin.

745
00:46:09,391 --> 00:46:11,181
It doesn't spam very much the network.

746
00:46:11,471 --> 00:46:12,691
If you put them together.

747
00:46:12,926 --> 00:46:14,656
Now you have a serious spam attack.

748
00:46:15,056 --> 00:46:19,886
Now it could be completely, uh, it could be completely, uh, physiologic,

749
00:46:19,896 --> 00:46:24,646
like, uh, it could be completely, let's say, spontaneous, or it could be also

750
00:46:24,646 --> 00:46:27,846
a smart form of attack against Bitcoin.

751
00:46:28,186 --> 00:46:30,166
This is the conspiracy theory part.

752
00:46:30,426 --> 00:46:37,166
So we all know since 2000, since the first discussion in 2014, 15, what are the

753
00:46:37,166 --> 00:46:40,136
main mining related attacks on Bitcoin.

754
00:46:40,466 --> 00:46:42,746
The first obvious, so let's assume that the government.

755
00:46:42,986 --> 00:46:47,766
can pay for hash rate, if a government can pay for hash rate, what they

756
00:46:47,786 --> 00:46:53,236
can do is basically, they can, they can pay miners to stop mining.

757
00:46:53,236 --> 00:46:54,646
This is the first kind of attack.

758
00:46:54,776 --> 00:46:55,896
Just don't mine anymore.

759
00:46:56,006 --> 00:46:58,516
I pay you if you keep your ASIC shut.

760
00:46:58,996 --> 00:47:02,386
If you do that, that's not very effective because the difficulty, the difficulty

761
00:47:02,386 --> 00:47:06,476
will go down and now other miners will outcompete the private miners.

762
00:47:06,686 --> 00:47:07,806
So that's not very effective.

763
00:47:08,106 --> 00:47:10,966
The second could be, let's do empty blocks.

764
00:47:11,006 --> 00:47:12,356
So keep mining.

765
00:47:12,631 --> 00:47:16,501
But only with the coinbase to pay yourself and stop including

766
00:47:16,541 --> 00:47:17,631
other people's transactions.

767
00:47:17,871 --> 00:47:21,911
So now you have the same effect of no blocks at all for the other

768
00:47:21,911 --> 00:47:25,671
bitcoiners, but now you do keep the difficulty at the same level.

769
00:47:25,991 --> 00:47:31,781
This is a bad attack, especially if you don't, if you not only mine empty blocks,

770
00:47:32,151 --> 00:47:34,541
but you also orphan non empty blocks.

771
00:47:34,841 --> 00:47:38,541
So every time you see a non empty blocks, you do orphan it to attach

772
00:47:38,541 --> 00:47:41,151
to the previous empty blocks, and you create an empty chain.

773
00:47:41,441 --> 00:47:46,251
Which is keeping the difficulty up, but at least this is bad, but at least the

774
00:47:46,251 --> 00:47:51,671
full nodes during the time of inactivity of Bitcoin, they will not be required to

775
00:47:51,671 --> 00:47:57,041
increase their, bandwidth or CPU or data because there's nothing coming basically.

776
00:47:57,221 --> 00:48:01,331
So it's bad because Bitcoin is frozen, but also your data in your

777
00:48:01,331 --> 00:48:03,391
disks and your bandwidth is frozen.

778
00:48:03,731 --> 00:48:06,421
The third kind of attack, which is even more nasty, is

779
00:48:06,751 --> 00:48:08,791
we pay the miners to do blocks.

780
00:48:09,241 --> 00:48:14,471
And not empty, but just not including any meaningful, economical activity, they're

781
00:48:14,471 --> 00:48:16,281
just, uh, they're just full of shit.

782
00:48:16,731 --> 00:48:20,661
If we do this, this is a perfect attack, because now, difficulty

783
00:48:20,661 --> 00:48:25,271
will stay up, uh, the, transaction will not happen on the base layer.

784
00:48:25,611 --> 00:48:31,351
But also your, scarce resources to run a node will become higher and higher

785
00:48:31,481 --> 00:48:34,041
as if there was full economic activity.

786
00:48:34,461 --> 00:48:39,581
So you get the, the, all the problems of full florent economic activities,

787
00:48:39,691 --> 00:48:42,821
which is increasing your ETXO set, in your time chain, in your mempool.

788
00:48:44,176 --> 00:48:47,536
Plus all the problem of having a frozen, uh, a frozen activity.

789
00:48:48,016 --> 00:48:52,346
This is a, I'm not saying that this is happening for sure, but what

790
00:48:52,346 --> 00:48:57,276
is also triggering for me from the sociological level is that the self

791
00:48:57,316 --> 00:49:03,746
appointed skeptical, uh, adversary thinkers of Bitcoin are completely

792
00:49:03,806 --> 00:49:08,686
ruling out the possibility that if not this time, another time, spam

793
00:49:08,716 --> 00:49:11,186
could be used as a very effective way.

794
00:49:11,451 --> 00:49:13,651
Uh, attack against Bitcoin on the layer one.

795
00:49:14,065 --> 00:49:20,755
we already defined that spam is not, uh, defined by the value for the spammer.

796
00:49:21,055 --> 00:49:24,125
Uh, there is some people that say spam is subjective.

797
00:49:24,435 --> 00:49:27,575
Uh, what is spam for you is not spam for me.

798
00:49:27,940 --> 00:49:31,880
Yes, that's true, but the problem is that the definition, the only definition

799
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,430
that makes sense for spam is from the point of view of the receiver,

800
00:49:35,690 --> 00:49:40,500
because for the sender, spam always by definition makes sense economically,

801
00:49:40,570 --> 00:49:41,650
otherwise they will not do it.

802
00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:46,730
From a Misesian point of view, if you don't find value in spamming

803
00:49:46,740 --> 00:49:48,550
somebody else, you will not spam.

804
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:51,200
So the, uh, spam is always.

805
00:49:51,425 --> 00:49:54,785
Valuable from the point of view of the sender of the spam.

806
00:49:55,085 --> 00:49:59,435
Sometimes spa spam is also valuable from the point of view of the network

807
00:49:59,465 --> 00:50:03,305
of the intermediate intermediaries or the guys selling me electricity

808
00:50:03,455 --> 00:50:06,965
to spam you with my phone calls or sending me the minutes of the network.

809
00:50:07,145 --> 00:50:10,535
So it's valuable for me because I'm the spammer and I find value

810
00:50:10,655 --> 00:50:13,805
in spamming is valuable for the network and for the electricity

811
00:50:13,955 --> 00:50:15,845
because I'm paying them to spam you.

812
00:50:15,980 --> 00:50:19,270
It's just the problem that they're only, the only meaningful definition

813
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:20,800
is that it's not available for you.

814
00:50:21,290 --> 00:50:22,740
That's, that's the old definition of spam.

815
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:29,720
So, spam attack can be a very smart kind of attack, uh, on Bitcoin.

816
00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:34,090
And, uh, and this is the, uh, the, the other problem.

817
00:50:34,090 --> 00:50:34,520
So.

818
00:50:34,730 --> 00:50:38,860
There is a problem that I see of not knowing history, a problem that I

819
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,190
see of not thinking clearly about the definition of what can be considered

820
00:50:43,210 --> 00:50:47,770
spam, and then there is a problem of not even thinking that it could be,

821
00:50:48,130 --> 00:50:49,610
if not this time, maybe the next.

822
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:55,070
Uh, but it could be the prototype of a organized, well funded, structured

823
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:56,880
attack on Bitcoin's layer one.

824
00:50:57,792 --> 00:50:58,062
Wow.

825
00:50:58,062 --> 00:50:59,152
That's a lot to take in.

826
00:50:59,426 --> 00:51:04,236
yeah, these, when the fees go up, when people buy these stars, I

827
00:51:04,236 --> 00:51:07,346
mean, they, as we've established, they can't really own a star.

828
00:51:07,566 --> 00:51:12,895
It's just someone else owning Uranus, but, uh, uh, it's

829
00:51:14,046 --> 00:51:14,126
this?

830
00:51:15,016 --> 00:51:15,526
Knots.

831
00:51:17,107 --> 00:51:19,307
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Like, fees, the fee proportion of the, of the miner's reward in, like,

873
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:22,059
in relationship to, in relation to the subsidy will go up over time.

874
00:53:22,199 --> 00:53:23,829
So we will have higher and higher fees.

875
00:53:24,099 --> 00:53:27,619
Uh, like, imagine, like, the, um, the spam attack you're talking about, like,

876
00:53:27,669 --> 00:53:31,749
if you have a money printer, if you're the Federal Reserve, you could, you

877
00:53:31,769 --> 00:53:37,999
could do this kind of attack for quite a while, like, and, and, what, so, the

878
00:53:38,039 --> 00:53:44,329
question, a question here would be, like, how would, uh, the, um, uh, your

879
00:53:44,359 --> 00:53:51,201
average node running bitcoiner your pleb, uh, um, what, what, what can a single

880
00:53:51,201 --> 00:53:53,331
pleb do to prevent this from happening?

881
00:53:53,331 --> 00:53:56,721
And why, like, why was op return there in the first place?

882
00:53:56,721 --> 00:54:00,611
Like, uh, is it even necessary to have the op return?

883
00:54:00,611 --> 00:54:05,491
Like, why, why are we, are we entering another fork worth at some point?

884
00:54:05,841 --> 00:54:07,341
Will we fork it away?

885
00:54:07,341 --> 00:54:13,151
Or, uh, do we just do the Luke thing and, and, uh, run, um, uh, what's this?

886
00:54:13,151 --> 00:54:13,391
Uh.

887
00:54:14,241 --> 00:54:15,701
What's his version called?

888
00:54:16,011 --> 00:54:16,581
Knots.

889
00:54:16,601 --> 00:54:18,081
Yeah, yeah, it's a very nice name.

890
00:54:18,351 --> 00:54:21,611
Uh, so, uh, So, so what happens there?

891
00:54:21,621 --> 00:54:22,781
What do you foresee?

892
00:54:22,821 --> 00:54:26,211
In the near term and long term future?

893
00:54:27,051 --> 00:54:31,681
So this is another, uh, I told you that one of the reasons why the Bitcoin

894
00:54:31,681 --> 00:54:36,301
community is not very effectively, uh, answering to this problem.

895
00:54:36,421 --> 00:54:40,876
And it's very confused and there is a lot of debate and a lot of, uh, Uh, of

896
00:54:40,986 --> 00:54:45,156
drama, that one of the reasons is that there is the flattering thing that, okay,

897
00:54:45,206 --> 00:54:47,876
now shitcoiners, they are saying that bitcoin is better, so I'm flattered.

898
00:54:47,876 --> 00:54:52,656
That's one, but the other one is that there is, I admit that in my opinion, and

899
00:54:52,656 --> 00:54:57,056
I disagree with Luke about this, there is not an obvious solution to this attack.

900
00:54:57,086 --> 00:54:59,666
There are, there are mitigations, but they are not obvious.

901
00:54:59,936 --> 00:55:01,136
They are not perfect.

902
00:55:01,536 --> 00:55:03,036
They are not silver bullets.

903
00:55:03,156 --> 00:55:04,286
They are kind of hard.

904
00:55:04,476 --> 00:55:05,996
And now I will discuss some of them.

905
00:55:06,306 --> 00:55:10,561
So, uh, the problem is that many people, Uh, started to, to say,

906
00:55:10,621 --> 00:55:14,241
if I don't have a solution, then I want to say, this is not a problem.

907
00:55:14,621 --> 00:55:19,811
So, you know, like there is a, there is a, there is a word hunger or cancer.

908
00:55:20,221 --> 00:55:21,561
Uh, I cannot stop it.

909
00:55:21,911 --> 00:55:22,771
So it's fine.

910
00:55:22,781 --> 00:55:23,451
I mean, it's fine.

911
00:55:23,761 --> 00:55:26,891
I don't, I don't want to call it a problem anymore because I don't, because

912
00:55:26,891 --> 00:55:30,081
I'm used to say that, I'm used to think that if there is a problem in Bitcoin,

913
00:55:30,081 --> 00:55:31,486
there is an obvious way to fix it.

914
00:55:31,756 --> 00:55:35,806
If I can't find the obvious way to fix it, then I have to deny it's a problem.

915
00:55:36,036 --> 00:55:40,014
I think that's, that's another issue that we are facing right now.

916
00:55:40,254 --> 00:55:41,324
So what we can do?

917
00:55:41,714 --> 00:55:43,994
We can do an escalation of things.

918
00:55:44,364 --> 00:55:48,564
Um, but first, let me answer to your, your second, uh, question.

919
00:55:48,744 --> 00:55:50,789
Why there is even an operator there?

920
00:55:51,009 --> 00:55:56,939
Well, the point is that encoding spam into any kind of cryptographic

921
00:55:56,949 --> 00:56:03,019
system, it's almost, almost look, look, Dasher made a few example, uh,

922
00:56:03,019 --> 00:56:07,609
that makes it very, very hard, but it's all almost impossible to prevent.

923
00:56:07,989 --> 00:56:11,469
For example, in Bitcoin, people that wanted to encode stuff, they

924
00:56:11,469 --> 00:56:12,849
didn't start to do it in Operator.

925
00:56:12,899 --> 00:56:15,314
They started to do it with fake Multisig.

926
00:56:15,724 --> 00:56:21,554
So they were sending Bitcoin to an address, to a script that was composed

927
00:56:22,134 --> 00:56:27,414
of, let's say, these five public keys we'll have to sign in order

928
00:56:27,414 --> 00:56:29,324
to move this UTXO in the future.

929
00:56:29,524 --> 00:56:32,364
And the five public keys, they were not real public keys, in

930
00:56:32,364 --> 00:56:33,724
the sense that nobody knew.

931
00:56:33,964 --> 00:56:35,284
the correspondent private key.

932
00:56:35,634 --> 00:56:40,084
Uh, but, but you cannot tell that technically because every number

933
00:56:40,084 --> 00:56:43,754
of that format could be a valid public key as far as you know.

934
00:56:44,014 --> 00:56:47,284
It is not, but the reason it is not is that nobody knows the

935
00:56:47,284 --> 00:56:50,844
correspondent private key and the public key is just an encoding.

936
00:56:51,024 --> 00:56:55,354
of some message or some image or some fart noise or, or whatever.

937
00:56:55,624 --> 00:56:59,824
So the, the public key is encoding other, is not functioning as a

938
00:56:59,824 --> 00:57:03,604
public key, but from a technical perspective, you cannot know easily.

939
00:57:04,064 --> 00:57:07,614
So the, what, and the, the problem of creating.

940
00:57:07,949 --> 00:57:14,859
New unspendable outputs is that you don't only, uh, uh, spam the time chain, you

941
00:57:14,859 --> 00:57:19,749
also spam the so called UTXO set, which is basically the collection of the unspent

942
00:57:20,609 --> 00:57:22,789
coins that you may receive in the future.

943
00:57:23,179 --> 00:57:26,579
This collection is very delicate in Bitcoin, even more than the time chain,

944
00:57:26,589 --> 00:57:30,149
because the time chain You have to download it all if you want to run

945
00:57:30,149 --> 00:57:31,809
a node, but then you can delete it.

946
00:57:32,109 --> 00:57:34,539
You can prune it after you validated it all.

947
00:57:34,829 --> 00:57:37,099
While the UTXO set, you have to keep it all.

948
00:57:37,289 --> 00:57:38,319
You cannot delete it.

949
00:57:38,729 --> 00:57:44,089
The time chain has a, um, uh, block space limit to its growth.

950
00:57:44,329 --> 00:57:48,344
So for now, after segwit, We have four megabytes maximum of growth.

951
00:57:48,364 --> 00:57:52,974
So in the worst case scenario, the attacker can feed us four megabytes

952
00:57:53,014 --> 00:57:57,794
of spam every 10 minutes, which is a lot, but I mean, that's, that's it.

953
00:57:58,014 --> 00:58:02,114
In the UTXO set, uh, there is no, there is no limit to the growth.

954
00:58:02,304 --> 00:58:04,974
It could, it could, there is a maximum limit, which is.

955
00:58:05,499 --> 00:58:10,719
If you only put UTXO set information in all the blocks in the future,

956
00:58:10,739 --> 00:58:13,299
then you get to the same limit, but it's a terrible limit to have.

957
00:58:13,509 --> 00:58:17,339
Like, nobody will run a node when there are 4 megabytes

958
00:58:17,339 --> 00:58:19,799
of UTXO set every 10 minutes.

959
00:58:19,799 --> 00:58:21,219
Because it's not prunable.

960
00:58:21,409 --> 00:58:22,289
You cannot prune it.

961
00:58:22,319 --> 00:58:23,859
You have to keep that forever.

962
00:58:24,179 --> 00:58:27,599
Uh, or at least it's not printable in a very obvious way.

963
00:58:27,949 --> 00:58:29,920
So the idea of operator return.

964
00:58:30,184 --> 00:58:34,029
Operator return is, um, the name operator return is actually a return

965
00:58:34,089 --> 00:58:35,679
operator in, in computer science.

966
00:58:35,859 --> 00:58:40,419
It says when you arrive here and you, and you see this o code, your

967
00:58:40,419 --> 00:58:42,544
transaction, just your output, just, uh.

968
00:58:43,699 --> 00:58:43,739
fails.

969
00:58:43,909 --> 00:58:45,429
So you can basically not spend it.

970
00:58:45,429 --> 00:58:49,569
So if you, if you write a transaction that has an OP return in the

971
00:58:49,569 --> 00:58:51,569
output, the transaction is fine.

972
00:58:51,879 --> 00:58:55,709
But if you try to spend this output, when the script engine will

973
00:58:55,739 --> 00:58:58,629
meet the OP return, it will fail immediately because this is return.

974
00:58:58,689 --> 00:58:59,139
Stop it.

975
00:58:59,389 --> 00:59:00,599
So you can never spend it.

976
00:59:01,019 --> 00:59:04,959
If you cannot, if you have the guarantee that you cannot spend it,

977
00:59:05,149 --> 00:59:09,439
your node can become smart and can say, let's prune away all the OP returns.

978
00:59:09,449 --> 00:59:14,894
So all the output, That by, by definition of, of the script language

979
00:59:14,894 --> 00:59:18,964
of Bitcoin are not spendable, you will delete it from the UTXO set.

980
00:59:19,334 --> 00:59:24,104
So the, the, the, the idea of the Bitcoin developers to enable up return was

981
00:59:24,384 --> 00:59:27,394
to give a venting venue for spammers.

982
00:59:27,404 --> 00:59:32,824
So if you want to spam, at least spam in a way that will make for us easy.

983
00:59:33,044 --> 00:59:37,364
To prune the UTXO set and to, and to don't keep this pen forever.

984
00:59:37,754 --> 00:59:40,064
So, op return was a venting mechanism.

985
00:59:40,384 --> 00:59:45,264
That's also why Knots, the Luke Dasheer version of Fork of Bitcoin

986
00:59:45,314 --> 00:59:47,434
Core, they do have an op return.

987
00:59:47,674 --> 00:59:52,284
Luke said, okay, you may want to use Bitcoin to start to store stuff.

988
00:59:53,204 --> 00:59:58,274
I, I, I believe that you storing gigabytes of movie would be unacceptable for

989
00:59:58,284 --> 01:00:01,869
me because it would be Too demanding for my node without paying me.

990
01:00:01,869 --> 01:00:03,219
So I, I don't accept that.

991
01:00:03,569 --> 01:00:09,019
But if you want me to store forever and for you a hush of a document, that's a

992
01:00:09,019 --> 01:00:12,769
very, I mean, that's probably, that's still spam from a philosophical point

993
01:00:12,769 --> 01:00:14,599
of view, but that's like acceptable.

994
01:00:14,809 --> 01:00:23,449
So, um, hash is 30 something bytes of, uh, the, of, uh, usually to 256, um,

995
01:00:23,539 --> 01:00:27,119
uh, Shah, uh, plus some identifier.

996
01:00:27,624 --> 01:00:28,674
Okay, I can store that.

997
01:00:28,944 --> 01:00:33,824
So Luke and Bitcoin Core, they said, let's give everybody for every

998
01:00:33,894 --> 01:00:40,854
transaction, 40 bytes of arbitrary data, not because it's good, but because if

999
01:00:40,854 --> 01:00:44,444
you have these, at least you will not put it in a way that it's even worse.

1000
01:00:44,864 --> 01:00:48,824
So there was a, there was a, like a real politic.

1001
01:00:49,384 --> 01:00:53,954
Uh, pragmatic conception, uh, to the idea that if you really want to spam,

1002
01:00:54,174 --> 01:00:58,674
at least spam in a way that doesn't hurt the users as much as before.

1003
01:00:58,914 --> 01:01:04,194
So they created for the 40 bytes, then Bitcoin Core increased it eventually

1004
01:01:04,284 --> 01:01:08,954
in, um, back in 2015 or something, increased it to 80 bytes, while

1005
01:01:08,954 --> 01:01:13,934
Knut's Kept the original, uh, the original size because Luke said, no,

1006
01:01:14,054 --> 01:01:15,542
well, uh, I mean, what was the limit?

1007
01:01:15,542 --> 01:01:18,774
This is an interesting point, and then I will go to the answer about what to

1008
01:01:18,774 --> 01:01:20,604
do, what, what, what a pleb can do.

1009
01:01:20,934 --> 01:01:24,134
But I want to also make another distinction, which is very,

1010
01:01:24,134 --> 01:01:27,414
very important, and people tend to misunderstand Bitcoin.

1011
01:01:27,824 --> 01:01:32,244
There is a difference from validity rules and standardness rules.

1012
01:01:32,594 --> 01:01:37,704
Validity rules are those rules that if violated, you will reject a block.

1013
01:01:38,224 --> 01:01:41,754
Uh, so you will just reject the block, even if there is a lot of proof of

1014
01:01:41,754 --> 01:01:46,134
work, if there is a transaction that is inflating beyond the schedule, or is still

1015
01:01:46,134 --> 01:01:49,834
in Bitcoin without the proper signature, this transaction will make the entire

1016
01:01:49,834 --> 01:01:52,124
block invalid, and so the block goes away.

1017
01:01:52,274 --> 01:01:52,884
It's invalid.

1018
01:01:52,894 --> 01:01:58,964
Your node will censor this transaction systematically because it's not valid.

1019
01:01:58,964 --> 01:02:02,114
But there is something more subtle, which is standardness.

1020
01:02:02,674 --> 01:02:07,594
If you receive a transaction that is valid, but not standard, Your

1021
01:02:07,674 --> 01:02:12,944
node will cancel it from the mempool and will not rebroadcast it because

1022
01:02:12,944 --> 01:02:14,274
it's considered non standard.

1023
01:02:14,414 --> 01:02:17,304
So it's probably spam or something fishy going on.

1024
01:02:17,494 --> 01:02:22,364
So you reject it, but if you find it in a block, then you say, okay,

1025
01:02:22,364 --> 01:02:23,624
now at this point I accept it.

1026
01:02:23,964 --> 01:02:29,224
So there are transactions that are standard and valid and some transactions

1027
01:02:29,224 --> 01:02:30,944
that are non standard but valid.

1028
01:02:31,739 --> 01:02:35,209
And some transactions that are non valid and so obviously also non standard.

1029
01:02:35,649 --> 01:02:38,279
This one example is a DAST transaction.

1030
01:02:38,529 --> 01:02:41,089
So I make a transaction that moves one Satoshi.

1031
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:47,229
The problem is that the economic cost for every node to download, validate,

1032
01:02:47,229 --> 01:02:51,949
and rebroadcast the transaction is currently higher than one Satoshi.

1033
01:02:51,949 --> 01:02:54,479
So this is clearly not a good deal for everybody.

1034
01:02:54,839 --> 01:02:59,159
So if you find a transaction that spends only one Satoshi in the block,

1035
01:02:59,444 --> 01:03:03,514
You will accept it, but if you find it in your mempool, your mempool spam

1036
01:03:03,514 --> 01:03:05,144
filter will immediately delete it.

1037
01:03:05,494 --> 01:03:06,974
Another example is op return.

1038
01:03:07,264 --> 01:03:11,774
If you create an op return with 100 bytes and you put it in a block,

1039
01:03:12,114 --> 01:03:15,774
Bitcoin Core and also Bitcoin Knots will accept it as valid.

1040
01:03:16,044 --> 01:03:21,864
So Luke's node will accept your giant op return in a block if it finds it, but

1041
01:03:21,864 --> 01:03:23,544
it will not accept it in the mempool.

1042
01:03:23,784 --> 01:03:27,464
So like you have two Two defense mechanisms.

1043
01:03:27,704 --> 01:03:31,264
One is the timeless wise, like this looks like suspicious.

1044
01:03:31,354 --> 01:03:31,994
I don't want it.

1045
01:03:32,024 --> 01:03:32,994
I will not broadcast it.

1046
01:03:33,204 --> 01:03:35,984
And the second is, yeah, but now there's proof of work on this.

1047
01:03:35,994 --> 01:03:38,154
So I will have to be a little bit more considerate.

1048
01:03:38,774 --> 01:03:41,224
So Bitcoin Core always used both.

1049
01:03:42,054 --> 01:03:46,004
For example, any transaction that has a long up return

1050
01:03:46,254 --> 01:03:47,524
is valid potentially, right?

1051
01:03:47,839 --> 01:03:52,039
But non-standard, if it goes beyond, beyond 80 in core or

1052
01:03:52,039 --> 01:03:56,649
beyond 40 in crowns, uh, every transaction that has two up returns.

1053
01:03:56,919 --> 01:03:59,739
So you can have transaction with two up returns and two opt options.

1054
01:04:00,009 --> 01:04:01,839
This is valid, but it's non-standard.

1055
01:04:01,839 --> 01:04:04,899
Your Bitcoin core will reject any transaction with two

1056
01:04:04,899 --> 01:04:06,399
up returns in the outputs.

1057
01:04:06,699 --> 01:04:08,589
And there are other examples like this.

1058
01:04:08,999 --> 01:04:12,119
And, uh, and so now the point is what we do.

1059
01:04:12,629 --> 01:04:15,809
So at the end of my presentation in Prague, I made, um.

1060
01:04:16,114 --> 01:04:20,044
A classification of stuff from the most obvious stuff to do to the

1061
01:04:20,104 --> 01:04:21,754
more, most unlikely stuff to do.

1062
01:04:22,114 --> 01:04:25,624
I think that most obvious stuff is waiting, wait it out.

1063
01:04:25,744 --> 01:04:29,254
I, I, many people are, I think are, are, say, I'm criticizing this as

1064
01:04:29,254 --> 01:04:32,814
doing nothing, but I think that there is some value in just waiting.

1065
01:04:32,819 --> 01:04:38,664
So I will not, I will, I will tell people you don't have to be passive, but you

1066
01:04:38,669 --> 01:04:42,764
don't have to be rushing into something that could be worse than the, problem.

1067
01:04:42,984 --> 01:04:45,204
So be calm, understand.

1068
01:04:46,109 --> 01:04:49,519
Think, breathe, and don't do something stupid immediately.

1069
01:04:49,609 --> 01:04:49,909
So,

1070
01:04:49,929 --> 01:04:51,009
HODLing is using,

1071
01:04:51,499 --> 01:04:51,689
yeah,

1072
01:04:51,719 --> 01:04:52,199
exactly.

1073
01:04:52,429 --> 01:04:53,199
an active act.

1074
01:04:53,749 --> 01:04:58,649
and waiting and resisting is reacting in some way, even if you just passively wait.

1075
01:04:59,179 --> 01:05:02,909
The second point would be, basically study history.

1076
01:05:03,129 --> 01:05:05,629
So, uh, be, study logic.

1077
01:05:05,949 --> 01:05:11,839
Be able to, to say, so you cannot do technical stuff like a fork, like a

1078
01:05:12,199 --> 01:05:16,339
mempool filter, if you don't are, if you're not even able to name correctly

1079
01:05:16,339 --> 01:05:19,599
the problem and to describe the problem correctly in a consistent way.

1080
01:05:19,919 --> 01:05:25,134
So, before you apply any patch, before you apply any fork, before you create

1081
01:05:25,134 --> 01:05:29,979
a mining farm, At least think clearly about what is spam and what is not

1082
01:05:29,979 --> 01:05:35,109
spam, what is censorship and what is not censorship, what is, uh, uh, validity

1083
01:05:35,109 --> 01:05:39,119
and what is standardness, and I think we are very stuck at point two right now.

1084
01:05:39,409 --> 01:05:46,629
Uh, we, The problem can be analyzed and, can be mitigated better if

1085
01:05:46,629 --> 01:05:50,379
more users understand at least the terms of the problem, and I think

1086
01:05:50,379 --> 01:05:55,294
we are severely lacking about this, so my, effort right now is not, On

1087
01:05:55,294 --> 01:05:58,624
the other points of the list that I will tell you some other people are

1088
01:05:58,654 --> 01:06:00,114
thinking about that, but I'm stuck.

1089
01:06:00,224 --> 01:06:01,174
I'm stuck here.

1090
01:06:01,364 --> 01:06:05,714
Like, first, we have to make things clear, which is also a problem that

1091
01:06:05,714 --> 01:06:08,814
we had in the blocksize wars because the blocksize wars were not just a

1092
01:06:08,814 --> 01:06:13,224
problem of creating lightning, solving malleability or enlarging the block.

1093
01:06:13,234 --> 01:06:16,799
It was a problem of clear thinking about the trade offs in Bitcoin

1094
01:06:17,039 --> 01:06:18,569
and the, and the goals in Bitcoin.

1095
01:06:18,599 --> 01:06:23,839
So we are still stuck at the, at the like thinking problem, like understanding

1096
01:06:23,919 --> 01:06:25,629
even what the terms of the problem are.

1097
01:06:25,979 --> 01:06:33,009
The third point could be the, um, update of the filters in Bitcoin Core at the

1098
01:06:33,009 --> 01:06:35,629
level of mempool or moving to Knots.

1099
01:06:35,899 --> 01:06:40,979
So if you are an odd runner, Right now, your Bitcoin Core will reject,

1100
01:06:41,479 --> 01:06:45,629
uh, any, uh, so there is, there is a field in your configuration file,

1101
01:06:45,659 --> 01:06:47,229
which is called data carrier size.

1102
01:06:47,559 --> 01:06:54,319
So any, any time that some transaction will include this suspicious,

1103
01:06:54,529 --> 01:06:59,369
um, data that is probably spam, your mempool will reject it.

1104
01:06:59,884 --> 01:07:06,544
Unless that is found within a Taproot, uh, Tapscript spend, because when

1105
01:07:06,574 --> 01:07:11,294
Taproot was introduced, Bitcoin Core didn't find consensus about updating

1106
01:07:11,534 --> 01:07:15,274
the same logic of filters that were in there before, also to Taproot,

1107
01:07:15,544 --> 01:07:17,624
so there was just a lacking update.

1108
01:07:18,034 --> 01:07:20,514
Luke in Knots updated the filter.

1109
01:07:20,849 --> 01:07:22,379
But Bitcoin Core did not.

1110
01:07:22,699 --> 01:07:23,979
You can do it manually.

1111
01:07:24,219 --> 01:07:28,469
You can do it manually if you are able, or you can, uh, install a patch which

1112
01:07:28,469 --> 01:07:33,589
is called disrespector patch, in order to disrespect the ordinance, uh, or you

1113
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:36,539
can, uh, install Knots and run Knots.

1114
01:07:36,879 --> 01:07:38,839
So what is this third option doing?

1115
01:07:39,139 --> 01:07:43,734
This is doing something like, your node, We'll save some resources, so

1116
01:07:43,734 --> 01:07:48,244
you're, you will save some bandwidth resources for your node, some, um,

1117
01:07:48,444 --> 01:07:52,454
some, uh, CPU resources for your node and some disk resources for your node.

1118
01:07:52,834 --> 01:07:57,214
The nodes connected to you will not receive the spam from you, which is,

1119
01:07:57,354 --> 01:08:00,684
they will receive it anyway, because every node is very well connected.

1120
01:08:00,714 --> 01:08:03,824
So if the spam is out, they will eventually receive it, but not from you.

1121
01:08:04,094 --> 01:08:07,454
So you're doing like, you know, like the gif, I'm doing my part.

1122
01:08:07,464 --> 01:08:08,424
You do the little part.

1123
01:08:08,749 --> 01:08:13,149
Not to spam your friend notes, which is appreciated, I think, and you're

1124
01:08:13,209 --> 01:08:14,959
saving some resources on your note.

1125
01:08:15,499 --> 01:08:18,229
Now, if you do that alone, that's it.

1126
01:08:18,489 --> 01:08:22,169
You have the moral ground of feeling you're not spamming your friends and

1127
01:08:22,169 --> 01:08:25,859
you can, you're saving a little bit of resources in your note, but when the spam

1128
01:08:25,859 --> 01:08:30,439
will enter a block, you will acquire it anyway and you will validate it because

1129
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:32,249
it is valid, even if it's not standard.

1130
01:08:32,659 --> 01:08:35,829
So there is no validity problem, just a standardness problem.

1131
01:08:36,299 --> 01:08:42,229
So now, uh, the, uh, the, if it's only you, it's basically it, you're

1132
01:08:42,229 --> 01:08:43,749
not gaining more, more, more.

1133
01:08:44,159 --> 01:08:48,879
But if everybody does it, then propagation of spam becomes harder.

1134
01:08:49,169 --> 01:08:52,129
And so spam will have a very hard time to get into blocks

1135
01:08:52,489 --> 01:08:54,579
because propagation is affected.

1136
01:08:55,079 --> 01:08:57,509
Uh, this is actually happening right now in Bitcoin Core.

1137
01:08:57,674 --> 01:09:03,014
If you create a long up return of 90 bytes and you pay a lot of fees, very,

1138
01:09:03,014 --> 01:09:06,844
very high fees, and you send it in the network, this will probably not be mined

1139
01:09:07,064 --> 01:09:12,244
because even if fees are very high, the every bitcoin core node will just cut

1140
01:09:12,244 --> 01:09:14,074
it, so we'll never get to the miners.

1141
01:09:14,594 --> 01:09:18,284
The objection to this, and it's a serious objection, I'm not downplaying

1142
01:09:18,284 --> 01:09:22,964
it, is that this is an incentive for people really motivated to spam people.

1143
01:09:23,244 --> 01:09:27,694
to call the mining pool directly and to send them off band.

1144
01:09:27,994 --> 01:09:31,134
This is actually not even just theoretical, that happened the first

1145
01:09:31,374 --> 01:09:36,104
All four megabyte blocks in the history of Bitcoin was full spam, zero fee.

1146
01:09:36,214 --> 01:09:38,344
It didn't pay any fee to the worker.

1147
01:09:38,344 --> 01:09:43,904
So people working on the Luxor four megabyte, uh, Taproot Wizard, they

1148
01:09:43,904 --> 01:09:46,944
got zero fees, uh, for, for that spam.

1149
01:09:46,944 --> 01:09:49,104
It was a block full of only spam.

1150
01:09:49,414 --> 01:09:50,234
And why did Luxor?

1151
01:09:51,019 --> 01:09:54,409
Spent, uh, they, their, with their workers' money on that

1152
01:09:54,819 --> 01:09:56,409
because they were paid off.

1153
01:09:56,529 --> 01:09:57,939
Uh, we don't know the, the amount.

1154
01:09:58,209 --> 01:10:01,479
It's, it's impossible to verify, but there is a claim that they was

1155
01:10:01,509 --> 01:10:03,999
paid directly by the, by the spams.

1156
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,379
So, uh, basically you have this problem of, uh.

1157
01:10:09,049 --> 01:10:13,759
Incentivizing people sending directly, uh, this type of band.

1158
01:10:14,029 --> 01:10:17,889
So there is a debate to be have, to be had here that I respect.

1159
01:10:18,119 --> 01:10:21,939
I don't respect much the debate that is like, there is no spam.

1160
01:10:22,029 --> 01:10:24,639
Spam is in your heart and nobody can define spam.

1161
01:10:24,669 --> 01:10:26,309
No, you can define spam very well.

1162
01:10:26,659 --> 01:10:29,449
There is no, I don't respect calling censorship.

1163
01:10:29,834 --> 01:10:32,844
What Knots does, but not what Core does.

1164
01:10:33,014 --> 01:10:34,514
That doesn't make any sense.

1165
01:10:34,564 --> 01:10:38,504
If, if Knots is censorship, then Core is a censorship machine.

1166
01:10:38,774 --> 01:10:40,064
So that doesn't make any sense.

1167
01:10:40,434 --> 01:10:44,044
But, and so, and censorship becomes good in that case, and Bitcoin is not

1168
01:10:44,074 --> 01:10:47,594
censorship resistant, nor it should be, if we define censorship like that.

1169
01:10:47,984 --> 01:10:50,934
But at this, at this level, there is something to be said.

1170
01:10:51,264 --> 01:10:57,019
So look, for example, now the sides of the debate are, Luke is saying, Bitcoin Core

1171
01:10:57,019 --> 01:10:59,849
always mitigated spam with membo filters.

1172
01:11:00,089 --> 01:11:05,199
To some degree, it did work and it did not push people off band so much.

1173
01:11:05,239 --> 01:11:09,059
So you're, you're saying that this, this solution, which is certain

1174
01:11:09,299 --> 01:11:10,709
is to be ruled out completely.

1175
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:11,299
I disagree.

1176
01:11:11,499 --> 01:11:13,149
We did it for core until now.

1177
01:11:13,239 --> 01:11:17,109
Let's keep it doing it after taproot and let's keep updating the filters.

1178
01:11:17,539 --> 01:11:21,699
And, um, and the other party like Peter Todd on Band Karma, they

1179
01:11:21,699 --> 01:11:23,689
are saying there are even more, there are two extremes like.

1180
01:11:24,079 --> 01:11:25,599
They are looked at the same.

1181
01:11:25,679 --> 01:11:28,389
Let's keep doing that and update the filters in the mempool.

1182
01:11:28,739 --> 01:11:31,469
And there is Ben Carman and Peter Todd saying.

1183
01:11:31,874 --> 01:11:32,534
You know what?

1184
01:11:33,184 --> 01:11:36,834
Even the, even the old filters in Bitcoin Core, they are wrong.

1185
01:11:37,104 --> 01:11:40,654
There is no reason we should filter out stuff if they pay a lot of fees.

1186
01:11:40,934 --> 01:11:44,604
Because temporarily, you are, you are putting them out of the mempool.

1187
01:11:44,794 --> 01:11:48,334
But if they pay high fees, eventually somebody will include them.

1188
01:11:48,604 --> 01:11:53,934
So when you see something with high fees, even if the obvious spam Just include

1189
01:11:53,934 --> 01:11:58,194
it because eventually somebody will, so you're just fighting against the,

1190
01:11:58,494 --> 01:12:03,264
you're, you're fighting against the, the economic incentives and in between there

1191
01:12:03,264 --> 01:12:07,264
are people that are like politically disoriented that say, I don't want to

1192
01:12:07,264 --> 01:12:11,474
update the filters, but I also don't want to delete the filters that I have, so they

1193
01:12:11,474 --> 01:12:16,384
are in this inconsistent, so core right now is an inconsistent position between

1194
01:12:16,384 --> 01:12:22,594
two consistent extremes that are keep doing filtering, Or like look, or stop

1195
01:12:22,594 --> 01:12:26,674
doing filtering for high fee transactions in general, even the old filters.

1196
01:12:27,014 --> 01:12:31,484
And core is just, I don't know, I'll do nothing, don't get me into this.

1197
01:12:31,944 --> 01:12:34,814
So this is the third option about mempool filtering.

1198
01:12:35,154 --> 01:12:38,834
Then there would be a fourth option that would be creating

1199
01:12:38,834 --> 01:12:43,304
some anti spam mechanism, also at the level of consensus validity.

1200
01:12:43,744 --> 01:12:45,854
So forking spam away.

1201
01:12:46,084 --> 01:12:49,194
So when you find some transaction which is spam, even if it's

1202
01:12:49,194 --> 01:12:50,619
in the block, You reject it.

1203
01:12:51,119 --> 01:12:54,659
This is not something that most people, including Luke, are

1204
01:12:54,699 --> 01:13:00,779
considering seriously because the definition of spam, dust, while kind

1205
01:13:00,779 --> 01:13:03,169
of objective, it's very dynamic.

1206
01:13:03,499 --> 01:13:07,689
For example, one satoshi is dust right now because one satoshi

1207
01:13:07,689 --> 01:13:09,189
is a fraction of dollars.

1208
01:13:09,379 --> 01:13:13,039
One satoshi, when one satoshi would be one dollar, may not be spam at all.

1209
01:13:13,229 --> 01:13:16,509
It will make a very, a very reasonable transaction to do.

1210
01:13:16,839 --> 01:13:22,194
So the idea of, uh, Or even like, Operator, we may change signatures

1211
01:13:22,194 --> 01:13:25,874
in a way that witnesses will be very large, very short, we may have

1212
01:13:25,884 --> 01:13:27,674
mimbo wimbo kind of complications.

1213
01:13:27,684 --> 01:13:33,464
So, fix in the consensus, this kind of filters, is a bad idea.

1214
01:13:33,884 --> 01:13:37,744
So, uh, the initial design of Satoshi was twofolds.

1215
01:13:38,384 --> 01:13:41,014
With consensus, we are kind of liberal.

1216
01:13:41,264 --> 01:13:45,094
We allow for strange stuff, because we don't know why you may use it.

1217
01:13:45,484 --> 01:13:51,099
With mempool policies, Default, we are strict because here when there is

1218
01:13:51,109 --> 01:13:52,649
obvious bullshit, we will delete it.

1219
01:13:52,989 --> 01:13:57,929
So almost nobody is proposing to fork the consensus in order to

1220
01:13:57,929 --> 01:14:01,659
delete, um, spam from, uh, blogs.

1221
01:14:02,089 --> 01:14:07,409
Most of the people are, I mean, I'm stuck, I'm stuck here, which is at

1222
01:14:07,409 --> 01:14:09,089
least let's define spam correctly.

1223
01:14:09,409 --> 01:14:14,009
And most of the people are fighting here like, do we update the mempool filters

1224
01:14:14,009 --> 01:14:15,439
on Bitcoin Core or do we use Knots?

1225
01:14:15,634 --> 01:14:16,064
Or not.

1226
01:14:16,664 --> 01:14:19,384
Then there is, uh, uh, there is this, this, this block

1227
01:14:19,384 --> 01:14:22,434
situation, which is something that almost nobody is discussing.

1228
01:14:22,834 --> 01:14:24,124
There are two variants here.

1229
01:14:24,594 --> 01:14:29,934
Uh, about the mempool, one variant is, uh, what if your node is not just

1230
01:14:29,934 --> 01:14:33,714
your node, you're not a pleb, but you are, you are a pleb with ASICs.

1231
01:14:34,114 --> 01:14:36,174
You are a pleb that can crunch hashes.

1232
01:14:36,634 --> 01:14:37,944
Now, that's very different.

1233
01:14:38,094 --> 01:14:42,274
That's completely different because now, if you do apply filters and you

1234
01:14:42,334 --> 01:14:46,674
are a pleb with ASICs, For example, you are Ocean, a mining pool, or you

1235
01:14:46,674 --> 01:14:49,594
are crazy solo miners with some ASICs.

1236
01:14:50,084 --> 01:14:55,244
Now, it changes completely because not only you are avoiding to transmit the

1237
01:14:55,244 --> 01:14:59,424
spam to other peers, and you are sparing your resources from the event pool spam.

1238
01:14:59,669 --> 01:15:04,629
for a while, but now you are producing blocks eventually that are spam free.

1239
01:15:05,149 --> 01:15:09,489
These blocks are not blocks with less, fewer transactions.

1240
01:15:09,789 --> 01:15:13,289
They are blocks with more economic transaction because the transaction

1241
01:15:13,289 --> 01:15:17,129
that were stuck out because of the spam, they can finally enter your block.

1242
01:15:17,529 --> 01:15:22,769
So for example, Luke Dasher point about Ocean is, look, even if we lose the fight

1243
01:15:22,769 --> 01:15:28,609
against spam, Ocean block is a block that gives reliefs to all the transactions

1244
01:15:28,619 --> 01:15:30,169
that are priced out by the spam.

1245
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:32,929
So it's not true that the sum is zero.

1246
01:15:32,939 --> 01:15:34,969
It's not true that what we are doing is useless.

1247
01:15:35,379 --> 01:15:40,149
Even if spam keeps existing and keeps entering the blocks, at least in my

1248
01:15:40,149 --> 01:15:45,449
block, as long as I can find some, there is no spam and there is more

1249
01:15:45,449 --> 01:15:49,579
space for actual Bitcoin transactions, which is, which is something.

1250
01:15:49,864 --> 01:15:51,504
Uh, interesting to discuss.

1251
01:15:51,754 --> 01:15:55,384
Of course, there is another discussion here, which is, yes, but then you

1252
01:15:55,384 --> 01:15:59,644
make make, uh, you will make less money, so you will go out of business

1253
01:15:59,644 --> 01:16:03,444
compared to people that are actually including spam, but which is a,

1254
01:16:03,694 --> 01:16:05,334
which is an interesting argument.

1255
01:16:05,674 --> 01:16:10,384
But it's not 100% sure for the simple se, for, for the reason that right

1256
01:16:10,384 --> 01:16:15,694
now, uh, all the entities that are accepting spam, they're also, uh, for

1257
01:16:15,694 --> 01:16:18,694
the same reason of of profit maximizing.

1258
01:16:18,874 --> 01:16:22,414
They're also accepting out ofAnd payments of very, uh,

1259
01:16:22,444 --> 01:16:24,064
different, different, uh, style.

1260
01:16:24,064 --> 01:16:26,849
For example, Luxer, they accept that spa.

1261
01:16:27,369 --> 01:16:31,969
But they created lots of blocks with zero fees for the miners and only

1262
01:16:32,009 --> 01:16:34,299
off chain, off band payment of spam.

1263
01:16:34,559 --> 01:16:41,639
So these blocks was very, uh, it was, it was, uh, profitable for the pool, but

1264
01:16:41,639 --> 01:16:45,129
not profitable for the miners because they didn't see anything of that.

1265
01:16:45,519 --> 01:16:50,019
And pool For various reasons, maybe including also all the

1266
01:16:50,099 --> 01:16:52,569
covert, Isaac Booth, we don't know, but for many reasons, they

1267
01:16:52,569 --> 01:16:53,889
create a lot of empty blocks.

1268
01:16:54,419 --> 01:16:58,389
So, Npool leaves a lot of, of my, of fees on the table.

1269
01:16:58,729 --> 01:17:02,669
So, Ocean doesn't create empty blocks and doesn't create

1270
01:17:02,879 --> 01:17:04,319
spam blocks paying off band.

1271
01:17:04,329 --> 01:17:05,679
It cannot be paid off band.

1272
01:17:05,679 --> 01:17:11,249
Uh, it doesn't do the, uh, the typical casino share payments.

1273
01:17:11,959 --> 01:17:13,869
The idea is that we don't really know.

1274
01:17:13,949 --> 01:17:20,689
I'm not convinced that a mining pool doing, um, or a, or a miner

1275
01:17:20,989 --> 01:17:25,719
doing filtering of spam will be necessarily less profitable.

1276
01:17:26,099 --> 01:17:29,689
Uh, it's, it's an argument, but even there, there is a philosophical

1277
01:17:29,689 --> 01:17:32,649
argument by not pimping this.

1278
01:17:32,649 --> 01:17:36,079
I don't remember but it's probably, uh, it's a Bitcoiner that's saying this

1279
01:17:36,079 --> 01:17:39,019
every time, by not pimping out my wife.

1280
01:17:39,354 --> 01:17:43,264
I'm losing profit comparably, to other friends that do.

1281
01:17:43,394 --> 01:17:43,784
That's true.

1282
01:17:43,804 --> 01:17:44,504
That's objective.

1283
01:17:44,874 --> 01:17:48,764
Still, sometimes in life, there is a reason to be less, relatively less

1284
01:17:48,764 --> 01:17:52,244
profitable because sometimes you don't want to do something which is profitable

1285
01:17:52,244 --> 01:17:56,374
because it's wrong or bad or has other consequences that you don't want.

1286
01:17:56,684 --> 01:18:00,444
So maxima, profit is a great proxy measure.

1287
01:18:00,784 --> 01:18:02,464
Profit is a great number.

1288
01:18:02,774 --> 01:18:07,324
To tell you that, to test if what you're doing is sustainable, but profit is

1289
01:18:07,354 --> 01:18:15,644
not, uh, this is like, this is like a, caricature of capitalism to, uh, to

1290
01:18:15,644 --> 01:18:22,289
depict capitalists as somebody that are only maximizing short term um, Margins.

1291
01:18:22,409 --> 01:18:25,109
That's not the way people work People.

1292
01:18:25,319 --> 01:18:30,749
Uh, it is not like you are a great, you are a great astrophysicist, and then

1293
01:18:30,749 --> 01:18:34,259
you realize that opening a pizzeria would be slightly more profitable,

1294
01:18:34,259 --> 01:18:35,889
and so you just switch to a pizzeria.

1295
01:18:35,909 --> 01:18:36,539
That's not it.

1296
01:18:36,719 --> 01:18:41,669
You are, you are sticky because you have objectives, goals, patience preferences,

1297
01:18:41,789 --> 01:18:45,509
priorities, moral, uh, your morals.

1298
01:18:45,809 --> 01:18:48,179
There are other things in play, even in Bitcoin.

1299
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:50,369
The fact that mining is very competitive.

1300
01:18:50,694 --> 01:18:56,864
And very fast and very low margins makes the competition a little bit more harsh,

1301
01:18:57,144 --> 01:19:00,654
but it doesn't mean that the competition is only on the short term margin.

1302
01:19:00,664 --> 01:19:02,604
There are other factors in play.

1303
01:19:02,924 --> 01:19:10,904
I will, I personally, I, if I do have a few ASICS I will willingly and forever,

1304
01:19:11,554 --> 01:19:16,334
prefer to point them to a pool, which is better for Bitcoin, making less money.

1305
01:19:16,344 --> 01:19:19,904
That's part of my personal, trade off assessment.

1306
01:19:20,174 --> 01:19:21,524
And I'm not the only one.

1307
01:19:21,754 --> 01:19:23,544
I, may be in a minority.

1308
01:19:23,914 --> 01:19:28,834
So the, there is this idea of, of the money, of the mining node.

1309
01:19:29,144 --> 01:19:32,704
There is another, then I close because I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm talking too much.

1310
01:19:32,714 --> 01:19:35,444
But, uh, you know, sugars during the Christmas party.

1311
01:19:35,444 --> 01:19:37,074
So too much sugar and then go on.

1312
01:19:37,349 --> 01:19:37,679
Too much.

1313
01:19:38,019 --> 01:19:44,019
But the, the consensus change, there is one idea that maybe we don't want to

1314
01:19:44,319 --> 01:19:48,999
price out, we don't want to filter spam out of consensus, because that would

1315
01:19:48,999 --> 01:19:54,049
be, uh, likely stupid, because it's consensus, because it's a dynamic problem

1316
01:19:54,049 --> 01:19:55,569
that we cannot change in the future.

1317
01:19:55,969 --> 01:20:00,669
But maybe, uh, a proposal would be It will never pass, but I would like

1318
01:20:00,669 --> 01:20:05,719
it, it would be to remove the Whitney discount that was introduced with Segwit.

1319
01:20:05,789 --> 01:20:06,179
Why?

1320
01:20:06,669 --> 01:20:11,679
Because the Whitney discount says that you can get up to 4 megabytes

1321
01:20:11,739 --> 01:20:16,989
in theory, if, uh, of, of Segwit, uh, of, uh, of witness data.

1322
01:20:17,499 --> 01:20:20,479
No real transaction can get to that point.

1323
01:20:20,659 --> 01:20:24,559
You will never have a non spam block of 4 megabytes.

1324
01:20:24,569 --> 01:20:27,639
That's impossible because every bitcoin transaction We'll have

1325
01:20:27,639 --> 01:20:30,749
some not with witness data, by definition, you need the outputs.

1326
01:20:31,289 --> 01:20:36,189
So the only kind of transaction that can actually harvest the

1327
01:20:36,189 --> 01:20:39,139
full segwit discount is only spam.

1328
01:20:39,399 --> 01:20:43,429
There is no way a real transaction could harvest that bonus.

1329
01:20:43,819 --> 01:20:47,529
So the segwit discount is basically.

1330
01:20:48,249 --> 01:20:50,859
A dis a a, an incentive for spam.

1331
01:20:51,209 --> 01:20:55,919
Uh, and there is an argument that it could be removed by consensus.

1332
01:20:56,269 --> 01:20:57,919
Uh, it will not delete spam.

1333
01:20:58,069 --> 01:21:00,529
Some of the current spam is not even in the witness.

1334
01:21:00,649 --> 01:21:04,579
They are, they're so bold right now that they're also spamming the non witness.

1335
01:21:04,669 --> 01:21:06,229
They ignoring the discount.

1336
01:21:06,469 --> 01:21:08,569
So the spam attack right now is suitable.

1337
01:21:08,569 --> 01:21:13,639
That is also ignoring the discount, but at least eliminating a discount

1338
01:21:13,969 --> 01:21:17,249
that proved, uh, very attractive.

1339
01:21:17,614 --> 01:21:20,764
To spam may be part of the discussion.

1340
01:21:21,588 --> 01:21:26,098
Yeah, so, so It all boils down to time preference, doesn't it?

1341
01:21:26,198 --> 01:21:28,608
Like, the time preference of the, uh, the miners.

1342
01:21:28,978 --> 01:21:33,608
So if they, if, if they intend to sell the bitcoins instantly, uh, when they've

1343
01:21:33,608 --> 01:21:38,678
mined them, then, of course, they're gonna mine the, uh, the, uh, the ones that pay.

1344
01:21:38,963 --> 01:21:43,923
The most, but if they intend to huddle the Bitcoin and use the Bitcoin at some points

1345
01:21:44,213 --> 01:21:49,853
later on in the future, then the incentive is to not include the spam because you

1346
01:21:49,853 --> 01:21:53,423
want the functionality of Bitcoin to be optimized in the long run, right?

1347
01:21:53,992 --> 01:22:01,202
Indeed, many things that are depicted as a conflict between profit and morals are

1348
01:22:01,212 --> 01:22:05,842
not, are just a conflict between profits now and more profits in the future.

1349
01:22:06,092 --> 01:22:09,702
Most of the moral behavior is just low term preference behavior.

1350
01:22:09,922 --> 01:22:11,232
It's just, I'm reducing.

1351
01:22:11,652 --> 01:22:14,412
My game right now, because I want to make it sustainable in

1352
01:22:14,412 --> 01:22:17,712
the future by not hurting other people and other kinds of things.

1353
01:22:18,122 --> 01:22:19,002
So you're right.

1354
01:22:19,982 --> 01:22:24,192
One of the optimistic lines of thinking is that miners are always

1355
01:22:24,242 --> 01:22:28,512
have, by definition, some low temp preference in the sense that even if

1356
01:22:28,512 --> 01:22:32,292
they sell all the Bitcoin, they have the hazards that are not very liquid.

1357
01:22:32,502 --> 01:22:34,892
And if Bitcoin goes down, the ASICs are just bricks.

1358
01:22:35,402 --> 01:22:38,502
So there's, there's some vested interest in Bitcoin.

1359
01:22:38,782 --> 01:22:41,762
This is a weak argument though, if you think about really sophisticated

1360
01:22:41,762 --> 01:22:45,322
attacks, because first of all, the government, the central bank can pay you

1361
01:22:45,322 --> 01:22:47,602
more than your ASICs to damage Bitcoin.

1362
01:22:47,602 --> 01:22:50,122
And so you just maximize your profit by, by breaking Bitcoin.

1363
01:22:50,382 --> 01:22:55,752
And now you break your ASICs, but whatever, your, your loot was more.

1364
01:22:56,122 --> 01:22:59,752
Second, you can use financial instruments to compensate.

1365
01:22:59,792 --> 01:23:02,062
So you attack Bitcoin, you short Bitcoin.

1366
01:23:02,277 --> 01:23:05,297
Now your ASICs have died, but now you're making money with the short.

1367
01:23:05,527 --> 01:23:08,027
So it's not that, it's not bulletproof.

1368
01:23:08,317 --> 01:23:10,967
It is a good thing that you have a vested interest in ASICs.

1369
01:23:11,077 --> 01:23:14,027
It's a good thing of ASICs, but it's not bulletproof.

1370
01:23:14,237 --> 01:23:16,257
It's not that no miners will ever do it.

1371
01:23:17,389 --> 01:23:19,349
Oh, this is, this has been so great.

1372
01:23:19,379 --> 01:23:21,949
I like the, there's a couple of other things I want to go into

1373
01:23:21,969 --> 01:23:23,399
before we wrap this thing up.

1374
01:23:23,819 --> 01:23:28,469
Uh, so when you talk about these points and that you're stuck on number two,

1375
01:23:28,819 --> 01:23:36,039
which basically, basically I could, uh, uh, boil that point down to, uh, you

1376
01:23:36,059 --> 01:23:38,589
trying to make Bitcoiners less retarded.

1377
01:23:39,144 --> 01:23:46,154
It's like, which ties in nicely to your education effort that is coming.

1378
01:23:46,154 --> 01:23:51,564
You want to completely rug everyone and centralize Bitcoin education.

1379
01:23:52,354 --> 01:23:53,244
That's the plan, right?

1380
01:23:53,824 --> 01:23:55,614
So can you tell us a bit more about that?

1381
01:23:55,954 --> 01:24:00,574
I would love to be a part of that in some sense, like we had this idea a

1382
01:24:00,574 --> 01:24:06,697
couple of years back of, um, like the, now we will do the praxeology course

1383
01:24:06,707 --> 01:24:10,537
some other way, but the plan is still to make the praxeology book I wrote

1384
01:24:10,587 --> 01:24:12,657
last year into a course of some kind.

1385
01:24:13,007 --> 01:24:18,457
And the idea back then was to have this praxeology course as a part of a

1386
01:24:18,467 --> 01:24:20,347
master's degree in self sovereignty.

1387
01:24:20,672 --> 01:24:23,782
Which I think, still think it's a fantastic idea, like, uh, that you

1388
01:24:23,792 --> 01:24:28,222
get this, uh, it's the only education you need, really, and then you can

1389
01:24:28,222 --> 01:24:29,712
fuck off and do whatever you want.

1390
01:24:29,772 --> 01:24:33,782
Like, it's the perfect actual education in my mind.

1391
01:24:34,082 --> 01:24:38,232
So, so, anything we can do there, like, um, yeah.

1392
01:24:39,226 --> 01:24:42,276
Enough about that, like, tell us about the education effort, what is that?

1393
01:24:43,001 --> 01:24:47,361
So education effort is something that I was already trying to do but alone and

1394
01:24:47,361 --> 01:24:51,351
my fixation since many years is to take people that are doing the same thing

1395
01:24:51,391 --> 01:24:55,691
and centralize them in a single point of failure because, uh, by jokes apart,

1396
01:24:55,921 --> 01:25:01,201
I think that decentralization is always anti-fragile but very inefficient with

1397
01:25:01,201 --> 01:25:03,061
a lot of redundancies, a lot of waste.

1398
01:25:03,541 --> 01:25:07,701
Centralization is very efficient until it's not because it dies and it fails.

1399
01:25:08,091 --> 01:25:14,201
But if we do open source Uh, efforts that produce something that people can reuse,

1400
01:25:14,471 --> 01:25:18,611
then we eliminate the single, single point of failure or we mitigate it because now

1401
01:25:18,701 --> 01:25:23,551
I will centralize all the organization of, education efforts by many entities

1402
01:25:23,561 --> 01:25:25,801
that are doing everything, uh, yet again.

1403
01:25:26,091 --> 01:25:29,511
Now we create one single entity that will do all that.

1404
01:25:29,631 --> 01:25:30,771
It will be more efficient.

1405
01:25:30,851 --> 01:25:31,521
It will cut redundancies.

1406
01:25:32,571 --> 01:25:34,641
It will, uh, it will rationalize resources.

1407
01:25:34,921 --> 01:25:38,181
And when it fails, because eventually we will become.

1408
01:25:38,301 --> 01:25:43,301
We will get corrupted or tired or lazy or complacent.

1409
01:25:43,581 --> 01:25:48,341
Now we produced a body of open source knowledge that everybody else can reuse.

1410
01:25:48,571 --> 01:25:50,481
Not just the content, but even the platform.

1411
01:25:50,761 --> 01:25:51,761
So what is the mission?

1412
01:25:52,041 --> 01:25:57,611
To create a single internet platform called PlanB Network that

1413
01:25:57,741 --> 01:26:01,701
will put together all the most relevant educational resources.

1414
01:26:02,121 --> 01:26:05,711
The initiative is taking over the Plan B summer school

1415
01:26:05,961 --> 01:26:07,431
that I was part of in Lugano.

1416
01:26:07,816 --> 01:26:12,416
And the CUBO+ program in El Salvador and the Summer of Bitcoin program for

1417
01:26:12,416 --> 01:26:16,456
developers by Yadi and a few other things, including especially the

1418
01:26:17,046 --> 01:26:19,706
Sovereign University, which is very close to what you were discussing.

1419
01:26:19,926 --> 01:26:23,486
Roxy is a French guy that was creating a Sovereign University.

1420
01:26:23,716 --> 01:26:29,416
So I merged all these initiatives together with my personal, BHB

1421
01:26:29,416 --> 01:26:33,256
network education initiative that I was already running in one single.

1422
01:26:34,296 --> 01:26:38,916
Now, we are running a little bit late because, uh, you see, if you don't have

1423
01:26:38,916 --> 01:26:43,266
resources to do stuff, then you just do that in your, in your free time.

1424
01:26:43,526 --> 01:26:48,396
But if you do have relevant resources, now you have to organize the resources

1425
01:26:48,406 --> 01:26:49,776
in a way that nobody will fight.

1426
01:26:49,816 --> 01:26:53,036
And so now we are still creating, so we created a non profit

1427
01:26:53,036 --> 01:26:54,061
foundation in Switzerland.

1428
01:26:54,441 --> 01:26:57,691
Uh, now we create the for profit company that will manage the

1429
01:26:57,691 --> 01:26:59,631
site that will receive a mandate.

1430
01:26:59,951 --> 01:27:01,341
And now we are creating the team.

1431
01:27:01,561 --> 01:27:03,011
So the website is there.

1432
01:27:03,021 --> 01:27:07,101
If you go to PlanB.Network there is already the net, the website, but

1433
01:27:07,101 --> 01:27:10,011
it's right now mostly free education.

1434
01:27:10,256 --> 01:27:12,756
Which is, which is cool, which is the objective, but we also

1435
01:27:12,756 --> 01:27:14,766
want to do paid education.

1436
01:27:14,986 --> 01:27:20,156
So in this website, in hopefully in one month or two months top, you

1437
01:27:20,156 --> 01:27:25,166
will find dates in which you can subscribe to a paid course and pay

1438
01:27:25,166 --> 01:27:31,666
money To do a course of praxeology with notes or nu or we can do a course

1439
01:27:31,666 --> 01:27:33,676
of something with, uh, with somebody.

1440
01:27:33,886 --> 01:27:37,386
So the idea is to intermediate good Bitcoin teachers.

1441
01:27:37,596 --> 01:27:40,566
Uh, so you don't have to do your own registration.

1442
01:27:40,686 --> 01:27:42,186
You don't have to to search.

1443
01:27:42,276 --> 01:27:45,516
Basically, it's a typical network, network deal.

1444
01:27:45,786 --> 01:27:47,826
You don't have to find your demand.

1445
01:27:48,066 --> 01:27:49,416
We aggregate the demand.

1446
01:27:49,786 --> 01:27:52,911
And, when the demand is there, they don't have to go around

1447
01:27:53,141 --> 01:27:54,331
searching for the supply.

1448
01:27:54,491 --> 01:27:59,031
We aggregate and select and curate a good anthology of supply.

1449
01:27:59,231 --> 01:27:59,731
So that's it.

1450
01:27:59,941 --> 01:28:01,151
It's a very simple concept.

1451
01:28:01,151 --> 01:28:04,291
It's just a, uh, network concept on education.

1452
01:28:04,571 --> 01:28:08,361
There's also another side to this story, which is separated, which

1453
01:28:08,361 --> 01:28:10,191
is a network of physical places.

1454
01:28:10,201 --> 01:28:14,656
Because one of the things I learned over the years is that, uh, Online is cool.

1455
01:28:14,676 --> 01:28:15,476
Like we can do this.

1456
01:28:15,626 --> 01:28:19,676
We could not, we could not do this without the, the, uh, without these

1457
01:28:19,976 --> 01:28:25,066
technical means, but, uh, when you want to create a good educational effort, you

1458
01:28:25,076 --> 01:28:29,816
need some kind of physical coexistence of people that the bandwidth that we

1459
01:28:29,816 --> 01:28:34,246
have when we are in the same room is never the same, or maybe we will be

1460
01:28:34,246 --> 01:28:35,426
eventually, but right now it's not.

1461
01:28:35,946 --> 01:28:41,906
So, uh, Plummy Network will also be a network of physical buildings.

1462
01:28:42,311 --> 01:28:45,821
Where you can actually have a subscription and then you go to the

1463
01:28:45,821 --> 01:28:49,421
office in Madera, to the office in Lugano, to the office in San Salvador.

1464
01:28:49,661 --> 01:28:51,461
So this is not a new idea either.

1465
01:28:51,671 --> 01:28:54,101
You remember the old idea of Bitcoin embassies?

1466
01:28:54,221 --> 01:28:56,981
This is the same thing we tried over and over again.

1467
01:28:56,981 --> 01:29:01,901
We tried again to do a, a network of physical places so we can, you can have

1468
01:29:01,901 --> 01:29:07,691
one single membership to go to stay in a Bitcoin, Airbnb, uh, in, uh, in Tokyo,

1469
01:29:07,691 --> 01:29:10,511
or to to work in an office in Madera.

1470
01:29:10,716 --> 01:29:15,716
Or to learn in a classroom in Lugano or to put your developer

1471
01:29:15,936 --> 01:29:18,196
in a talent pool in San Salvador.

1472
01:29:18,396 --> 01:29:19,776
So this is the idea.

1473
01:29:20,256 --> 01:29:25,916
It's two things, open source education and physical places networked together.

1474
01:29:25,966 --> 01:29:26,926
That's the initiative.

1475
01:29:27,750 --> 01:29:29,110
Yeah, because it's very needed.

1476
01:29:29,130 --> 01:29:33,450
Like, um, I watched two or three pods yesterday.

1477
01:29:33,450 --> 01:29:34,900
I had a lot of spare time yesterday.

1478
01:29:35,290 --> 01:29:38,270
Uh, so my wife and daughter went to Sweden.

1479
01:29:38,270 --> 01:29:40,540
So I'm here with my, my son only.

1480
01:29:40,540 --> 01:29:42,840
And that means I have more time on my hands.

1481
01:29:42,860 --> 01:29:47,350
So I managed to listen to three pods yesterday and two of them was, one

1482
01:29:47,350 --> 01:29:49,720
was Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris.

1483
01:29:49,810 --> 01:29:50,920
They did something new.

1484
01:29:50,940 --> 01:29:54,550
And the other was, uh, Jordan Peterson and Michael Malice.

1485
01:29:54,690 --> 01:30:02,580
Uh, and what's so, what's so Striking to me is these obvious, uh, holes

1486
01:30:02,620 --> 01:30:07,190
in, in their, uh, all three of these people have holes in their knowledge

1487
01:30:07,440 --> 01:30:12,190
because like with, with the conversation with Jordan and Sam, they're missing,

1488
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:14,540
they're, they're like circling around.

1489
01:30:14,675 --> 01:30:18,915
Praxeology and Misesian ideas, but they never get to them because

1490
01:30:18,915 --> 01:30:20,655
it's like they never read Mises.

1491
01:30:20,995 --> 01:30:25,335
So, uh, and the, uh, and the other thing with Michael Mallis, the thing was

1492
01:30:25,355 --> 01:30:30,005
like, well, you're talking about Bitcoin all the time here, but, but you're not

1493
01:30:30,005 --> 01:30:31,605
saying it because you're not aware of it.

1494
01:30:31,625 --> 01:30:35,595
And like, Jordan should be aware at this point, and Michael as well, but

1495
01:30:35,595 --> 01:30:37,755
still, there's a lot of people in this.

1496
01:30:38,070 --> 01:30:42,540
Uh, what used to be called the intellectual dark web, that seem to have

1497
01:30:42,790 --> 01:30:47,060
these obvious holes in their knowledge about what's actually available today

1498
01:30:47,070 --> 01:30:53,280
and what tools are there and what, so is there a question here, like how do

1499
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:59,240
we as bitcoiners reach these people and make like bitcoin more in the

1500
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:05,140
awareness, like make mainstream be more aware of what this thing actually is,

1501
01:31:05,809 --> 01:31:10,969
One of, one of the possible traits could be this, uh, it's not, it's not a

1502
01:31:10,969 --> 01:31:16,359
perfect solution, but it's, it could be a mitigation, again, uh, which is, uh,

1503
01:31:16,409 --> 01:31:21,589
as you said, we want, Plan B network will not be Bitcoin only, not in the sense that

1504
01:31:21,589 --> 01:31:25,539
it will be shitcoins, but in the sense that it starts with a Plan B for money.

1505
01:31:25,869 --> 01:31:26,639
Which is Bitcoin.

1506
01:31:26,999 --> 01:31:30,339
Then the idea is to expand to other Plan B.

1507
01:31:30,559 --> 01:31:35,199
So right, just like Bitcoin is the new Plan B sovereign, decentralized

1508
01:31:35,199 --> 01:31:39,489
alternative to central banking, then we can do Plan B for energy and

1509
01:31:39,489 --> 01:31:41,579
discuss about off the grid solutions.

1510
01:31:41,579 --> 01:31:45,649
We can do Plan B for communication and discuss Nostr, holepunch,

1511
01:31:45,649 --> 01:31:49,599
and peer to peer mesh networks.

1512
01:31:49,949 --> 01:31:53,899
Uh, what you can do Plan B for, and eventually The idea is to

1513
01:31:53,899 --> 01:31:58,479
have plan B for medicine with bro science and stuff like that.

1514
01:31:58,749 --> 01:31:59,919
So we can expand.

1515
01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:05,849
So if we expand, we can get other people that are part of what you call, what was

1516
01:32:05,849 --> 01:32:09,889
called the Intellectual Dark Web, which is basically the plan B for global culture.

1517
01:32:10,229 --> 01:32:12,509
And we can have part of those people involved.

1518
01:32:12,509 --> 01:32:15,999
Uh, the only thing is that I think it will not be happen soon because

1519
01:32:15,999 --> 01:32:17,669
otherwise the impression would be off.

1520
01:32:18,259 --> 01:32:19,759
Uh, lack, lack of focus.

1521
01:32:19,759 --> 01:32:24,499
So if you enter TTO now, and there are three good courses about Bitcoin and

1522
01:32:24,499 --> 01:32:29,419
one psychology with Jordan Peterson, or, or, or, or, that's, that's a little

1523
01:32:29,419 --> 01:32:31,789
bit like a sense of, I, I don't like it.

1524
01:32:31,789 --> 01:32:36,389
I prefer that we go, we, we create something incredible about Bitcoin, then

1525
01:32:36,394 --> 01:32:40,889
we tackle the things that are obviously directly connected, like Pology, Austin

1526
01:32:40,889 --> 01:32:43,709
Economics, cybersecurity game theory.

1527
01:32:43,709 --> 01:32:46,169
So the parts that are very, very strictly connected.

1528
01:32:46,484 --> 01:32:52,914
And then after my plan B is that after maybe one year of this, we can do

1529
01:32:52,914 --> 01:32:55,734
something which is really unrelated.

1530
01:32:55,734 --> 01:33:01,264
We can do, we can do stuff, which is still a plan B, but it's not Bitcoin

1531
01:33:02,044 --> 01:33:03,944
contiguous in a significant way.

1532
01:33:03,954 --> 01:33:05,239
Just the philosophy of.

1533
01:33:05,779 --> 01:33:09,049
Sovereign alternative to the mainstream is the only unifying picture.

1534
01:33:09,359 --> 01:33:11,719
So Plan B will be extended to that.

1535
01:33:12,059 --> 01:33:15,559
Uh, the problem is that I want to start focused on Bitcoin

1536
01:33:15,559 --> 01:33:19,149
and only when we are perfect in Bitcoin, we start to branch out.

1537
01:33:19,838 --> 01:33:21,508
Yeah, sounds like a good starting point.

1538
01:33:23,178 --> 01:33:25,728
Uh, Luke, do you have a question for Giacomo?

1539
01:33:25,738 --> 01:33:26,888
We haven't let you in yet.

1540
01:33:27,758 --> 01:33:28,158
All good.

1541
01:33:28,158 --> 01:33:32,678
You know what, Giacomo, I'm not, we basically asked you one question and then

1542
01:33:32,678 --> 01:33:36,758
you talked for beyond the hour we were going to, we were going to do with you, so

1543
01:33:36,928 --> 01:33:39,518
I'm not going to hold you any longer here.

1544
01:33:39,518 --> 01:33:40,738
This has been fantastic.

1545
01:33:40,928 --> 01:33:45,688
Can't think of a better person to have on to talk about this whole ordinals thing.

1546
01:33:45,688 --> 01:33:47,348
The explanation was fantastic.

1547
01:33:47,508 --> 01:33:51,158
So I'll just ask, any final thoughts, anything you'd like to

1548
01:33:51,178 --> 01:33:53,538
leave with us for this session?

1549
01:33:54,778 --> 01:33:58,548
Uh, I like why, uh, I like how you say it in a very kind way that you are afraid

1550
01:33:58,548 --> 01:34:02,888
of asking me one question because last time you did this, I spent one hour and a

1551
01:34:03,108 --> 01:34:06,578
Well, what you're doing, Giacomo, is you're spamming the Freedom

1552
01:34:06,578 --> 01:34:07,448
Footprint show, aren't you?

1553
01:34:07,738 --> 01:34:08,368
Right, right.

1554
01:34:08,438 --> 01:34:10,898
Luke is just censoring you in a polite way here.

1555
01:34:12,628 --> 01:34:16,528
No, I don't, uh, I, I had the plan B to shield, but I already did.

1556
01:34:16,748 --> 01:34:23,308
Um, so let's, let's, uh, I would say an appeal to everybody would be think

1557
01:34:23,468 --> 01:34:28,978
more and let's, uh, before we fix the consensus that maybe we will never fix

1558
01:34:28,978 --> 01:34:30,968
them before we fix the mempool filters.

1559
01:34:31,258 --> 01:34:36,178
Then maybe we fear we will fix or not, we have to fix the bug at the

1560
01:34:36,188 --> 01:34:38,648
social layer of people being retarded.

1561
01:34:38,888 --> 01:34:40,678
So, or at least mitigate that.

1562
01:34:40,978 --> 01:34:45,948
So, let's patch our retardedness together by studying and thinking

1563
01:34:45,968 --> 01:34:50,033
and applying clear thinking about Words and meanings and stuff.

1564
01:34:50,443 --> 01:34:51,883
This is my appeal to everybody.

1565
01:34:52,173 --> 01:34:56,223
If you are a miner or a usher, if you have ASICs, my appeal would

1566
01:34:56,233 --> 01:34:57,633
be, I mean, do whatever you want.

1567
01:34:57,633 --> 01:34:59,373
Of course, that's the point, that you can.

1568
01:34:59,603 --> 01:35:02,973
But you can also point your ASICs to OceanXYZ.

1569
01:35:04,303 --> 01:35:06,933
And while there, you will have three templates.

1570
01:35:07,733 --> 01:35:11,753
Because the whole point of Ocean in the long term The goal is to make miners

1571
01:35:11,993 --> 01:35:16,333
build their own templates, including bad templates that people in Ocean

1572
01:35:16,333 --> 01:35:21,283
don't like, because still it's better if people can decentralize bad choices

1573
01:35:21,513 --> 01:35:23,213
instead of centralizing bad choices.

1574
01:35:23,543 --> 01:35:24,983
So you will find three templates.

1575
01:35:25,413 --> 01:35:29,143
One template will be the template that we really like with a lot of

1576
01:35:29,143 --> 01:35:33,683
spam filtering, so they can include a lot of financial transactions.

1577
01:35:34,223 --> 01:35:38,003
And the other is, the other two are basically Bitcoin Core with a patch.

1578
01:35:38,373 --> 01:35:43,553
Uh, which limits the spam a little bit and Bitcoin Core as is, which only limits

1579
01:35:43,583 --> 01:35:47,973
the spam in the, in the, in the, in the traditional sense, but not the new spam.

1580
01:35:48,403 --> 01:35:52,713
Um, I, I personally, I was a minority within the company.

1581
01:35:52,733 --> 01:35:56,913
I suggested a new option, which is the crazy no filter version.

1582
01:35:56,933 --> 01:36:00,473
So if you really want to test the Todd Karman idea.

1583
01:36:00,703 --> 01:36:04,883
Just go there without any kind of spam and just create shitty blogs, which

1584
01:36:04,893 --> 01:36:09,223
we advise against, but you can, but eventually people will be able to do

1585
01:36:09,223 --> 01:36:14,583
that with Stratum V2 anyway, so, uh, but anyway, if you are a usher, uh, uh,

1586
01:36:15,113 --> 01:36:19,073
consider that, I think it's good for Bitcoin, you can even spam the network

1587
01:36:19,093 --> 01:36:21,213
using Ocean, at least you're helping me.

1588
01:36:21,413 --> 01:36:28,463
Other people to include spam free blogs, if you want, um, if you are not a minor or

1589
01:36:28,473 --> 01:36:33,583
a normal player, but you are an educator, uh, and you want to sell courses and

1590
01:36:33,583 --> 01:36:36,553
you don't feel like organizing alone.

1591
01:36:36,848 --> 01:36:41,538
Reach out, uh, me or Roxy with Plan B and we will get you set up in

1592
01:36:41,538 --> 01:36:43,178
the platform as soon as possible.

1593
01:36:43,508 --> 01:36:48,138
And, uh, if you are an owner of a Bitcoin dedicated building

1594
01:36:48,208 --> 01:36:52,648
somewhere around the world, like an office or a house or a hacker,

1595
01:36:52,758 --> 01:36:55,568
hackerspace or anything, reach out.

1596
01:36:55,718 --> 01:36:57,488
We may put you in the network.

1597
01:36:58,783 --> 01:36:59,353
Excellent.

1598
01:36:59,358 --> 01:37:02,413
Just, just a point about the back to Ocean here.

1599
01:37:02,563 --> 01:37:06,823
So I think Ocean has around one pound, 1% of the hash rate at the moment, right?

1600
01:37:06,823 --> 01:37:06,943
That

1601
01:37:07,098 --> 01:37:08,358
Oh, no, you wish, no, it's

1602
01:37:08,703 --> 01:37:12,243
uh, it's, it's, no, no, it's more even, it's not even

1603
01:37:12,478 --> 01:37:14,488
Ah, not even, yeah, yeah, no, no, not even close.

1604
01:37:14,893 --> 01:37:15,793
Uh, not even close.

1605
01:37:15,793 --> 01:37:22,073
So, but, but do you think that, that that ocean will, the, the, the existence

1606
01:37:22,073 --> 01:37:27,473
of Ocean will put pressure on the other mining poles to be more transparent?

1607
01:37:27,923 --> 01:37:28,523
Already did.

1608
01:37:28,833 --> 01:37:33,803
Another, after, uh, transparency was a point of allegiance until 2017.

1609
01:37:33,803 --> 01:37:34,913
It was the only one.

1610
01:37:35,273 --> 01:37:37,243
Allegiance disappeared in 2017.

1611
01:37:37,603 --> 01:37:41,983
Now, when it came, and there was no transparency for, for, for, for six years.

1612
01:37:42,613 --> 01:37:45,963
Once Eligius came back, there was another pool immediately doing

1613
01:37:45,973 --> 01:37:50,753
the transparent, uh, pre existent template view for the user.

1614
01:37:50,753 --> 01:37:54,233
So you mine on something that you know beforehand instead of after.

1615
01:37:54,393 --> 01:37:57,233
That will happen like two days after Ocean already.

1616
01:37:57,233 --> 01:38:00,573
We are to, this is a very small mining pool, even smaller than Ocean,

1617
01:38:00,873 --> 01:38:02,283
but it's already working that way.

1618
01:38:02,593 --> 01:38:07,443
And, uh, all this debate, even if it was a lot of drama, it created a lot

1619
01:38:07,443 --> 01:38:13,603
of thinking about, uh, Uh, off band payments, uh, like some people, people

1620
01:38:13,603 --> 01:38:17,823
were mining with Luxor, not even thinking they were mining with Luxor.

1621
01:38:17,823 --> 01:38:21,143
Now there's this block of four megabytes where, where, where

1622
01:38:21,143 --> 01:38:22,813
the spammers pay Luxor directly.

1623
01:38:23,053 --> 01:38:26,757
They were not even thinking, how do we How is it possible that we gain from this?

1624
01:38:26,757 --> 01:38:27,763
How is it possible that we gain from this?

1625
01:38:27,763 --> 01:38:29,743
How they are redistributing this payment?

1626
01:38:30,193 --> 01:38:32,023
And nobody was thinking about this stuff.

1627
01:38:32,363 --> 01:38:38,753
Now, or even just consider like, uh, all the drama that was, uh, about Ocean was

1628
01:38:38,753 --> 01:38:40,593
because the Ocean template was public.

1629
01:38:40,853 --> 01:38:45,125
So people were able to look at the template and say, oh, there are like,

1630
01:38:45,125 --> 01:38:47,043
there are few descriptions here.

1631
01:38:47,408 --> 01:38:52,728
So, ah, censorship, debate, let's discuss, but that was not possible before with

1632
01:38:52,758 --> 01:38:57,278
all the other legacy pools, because even if they were excluding transactions,

1633
01:38:57,448 --> 01:39:02,158
because Core is excluding transactions, or for other reasons, including, uh,

1634
01:39:02,188 --> 01:39:06,408
F2Pool doing the OFAC lease and stuff like that, nobody was able to even discuss

1635
01:39:06,408 --> 01:39:08,088
that because it was always exposed.

1636
01:39:08,368 --> 01:39:10,048
So that effect is already happening.

1637
01:39:10,238 --> 01:39:14,868
And frankly speaking, I'm a very small investor of Ocean, so if Ocean doesn't

1638
01:39:14,868 --> 01:39:16,498
make money, I will lose some money.

1639
01:39:16,848 --> 01:39:21,208
I'm super happy to donate some money just to create this effect.

1640
01:39:21,408 --> 01:39:25,068
So even if Ocean will not be able to reach a great share of the hash

1641
01:39:25,068 --> 01:39:29,188
rate, but we will force other people to, to do this in the discussion.

1642
01:39:29,188 --> 01:39:30,378
That's a win for Bitcoin.

1643
01:39:30,398 --> 01:39:31,428
So it's a win for me.

1644
01:39:31,578 --> 01:39:32,938
So it's, it's money well spent.

1645
01:39:34,143 --> 01:39:34,963
Fantastic.

1646
01:39:35,553 --> 01:39:42,383
Yeah, uh, final point, do you know, um, that I have, I've had for years now,

1647
01:39:42,433 --> 01:39:47,183
two rules for my kids, like this is how I do, how I raise kids, and I've been

1648
01:39:47,183 --> 01:39:52,263
having the two same rules for like, five years now, or even more, like, well,

1649
01:39:52,293 --> 01:39:53,873
since they were Three or something.

1650
01:39:54,473 --> 01:39:55,733
And it's very simple.

1651
01:39:55,973 --> 01:39:57,923
The first rule is don't be retarded.

1652
01:39:58,418 --> 01:40:02,753
And, and , the second rule is sort of baked into the first rule already, but

1653
01:40:02,753 --> 01:40:04,163
the second rule is shut the fuck up.

1654
01:40:04,803 --> 01:40:08,373
And if they follow these two rules, everything is fine.

1655
01:40:08,463 --> 01:40:11,913
So they, they like, uh, so whenever they do something, I don't like,

1656
01:40:11,913 --> 01:40:15,813
I, I, I, I tell them that you, you broke rule number one again.

1657
01:40:16,113 --> 01:40:17,893
So like, and yeah,

1658
01:40:18,008 --> 01:40:18,768
flexible rule.

1659
01:40:18,788 --> 01:40:19,378
Yeah, and I

1660
01:40:19,568 --> 01:40:20,478
a very flexible rule.

1661
01:40:20,628 --> 01:40:24,748
this is, this is in effect what you're doing to the Bitcoin community,

1662
01:40:24,758 --> 01:40:29,328
like you're trying to force them to not, or force them, you're telling

1663
01:40:29,328 --> 01:40:31,378
them not to break these two rules.

1664
01:40:34,358 --> 01:40:36,328
My kids are going to thank you one day.

1665
01:40:39,768 --> 01:40:44,008
All right, Giacomo, looking forward a lot to seeing you in person next

1666
01:40:44,008 --> 01:40:50,358
time, hopefully sometime soon, and we'll, we'll continue the discussions.

1667
01:40:51,038 --> 01:40:54,798
Uh, about retardedness, uh, over a steak or something.

1668
01:40:55,138 --> 01:40:58,878
So, yeah, thanks so, so much.

1669
01:40:58,958 --> 01:41:00,258
Yeah, you too.

1670
01:41:00,368 --> 01:41:04,788
And we hope to, hope to be spamming, spamming the Freedom Footprint show

1671
01:41:04,788 --> 01:41:06,598
with more Giacomo whenever we can.

1672
01:41:06,888 --> 01:41:07,558
Looking forward.

1673
01:41:07,648 --> 01:41:08,588
always welcome back.

1674
01:41:09,018 --> 01:41:09,908
Thanks again, Giacomo.

1675
01:41:09,908 --> 01:41:11,458
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1676
01:41:11,588 --> 01:41:12,288
Thanks for listening.