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Jeff, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show, thanks for joining us.

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Ah, thanks for having me again Luke and Kurt, did I do?

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We're off to a good start.

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Yeah,

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Always lovely to see you, Jeff.

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I think of you as my older brother that I never had.

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So

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had a, we've had a lot of good times.

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yeah, we have had a lot of good times.

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And it's always a pleasure.

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I know you're, you can be hard to get a hold of because you're a busy man.

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But I don't remember when last we did this, like, was it like

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more than a year ago now, maybe?

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It was actually, yeah, yeah.

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It wasn't that long

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Uh, that,

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that long.

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Yeah, but we met a couple of times in between, and we've done other stuff,

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And you're going to, um, and you're going to Columbia too, right?

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Yes, I am.

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So we'll see each other in mid January.

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and we'll go to El Salvador also afterwards.

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So I'm doing the Medellin conference in mid January and then at the

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end of January there's a Plan B conference in El Salvador I'm doing.

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So I'm planning to, like, use that, those two weeks to see El Salvador,

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because it'll be my first time there, so looking forward to that a lot.

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It's awesome.

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I, I, I'll probably do the same.

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I'll probably, I've already been to El Salvador, but I'd like to go again.

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So I might, uh, I might do the same.

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Maybe we'll be traveling together.

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Totally.

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a, uh, uh, uh, uh, that's a favorite, uh, a replay of a favorite thing, a bus tour.

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We've, uh, we actually have had some, uh, very, very cool, uh,

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experiences through this world and, uh, and Bitcoin, haven't we?

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Yeah,

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swimming in the pools in Spain and, and, uh, going on the strange lifts in Madeira

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and, uh, and traveling around Bulgaria.

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Yeah.

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They're really cool.

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Anyway, uh, we're not here to talk about that.

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We don't know what we're here to talk about, but we're here to find

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out what we're about to talk about.

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So, uh, so let's start off with how's your year been?

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Um, like, well, or.

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Last half year, I guess, or what are you excited for?

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What are you worried about?

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All the things.

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I, I, I say it all the time.

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You say it all the time.

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Like the, the, um, Bitcoin is imposing this reality on the world for the

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first time, for the first time ever, we live in a global free market.

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And you don't have to believe it to live in it, right?

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If you want to measure that, uh, from the other system, you can, but Bitcoin's

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imposing the global free market on people and repricing people who don't believe it.

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And so, so if you're living in that world and measuring from that

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world, You see what should happen in the world and prices falling.

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Most people, even when they're talking about the fiat based instrument, they're

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converting bitcoin to their fiat unit to be able to price the world, and

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they think prices are still going up.

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But what's really happening is you have a, you have global deflation.

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Global productivity gains, um, driven by Bitcoin is repricing

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everything from that energy based, decentralized, secure protocol.

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so it's wild to be, uh, To know that and to be living in that and to,

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to, to, with a whole bunch of other people that are doing the same.

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And it's just that that knowledge is expanding kind of person by person,

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person and moving, moving to the new system that is going to unite

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8 billion people on this planet.

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Yeah, couldn't agree more, and this is great that we start off here,

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because I read a Rothbard book on my way to Amsterdam, to the conference

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in Amsterdam a couple of months back.

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And, uh, uh, there he touched on some things that we touch on in the, in the

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new Clown World book, uh, and that is that, uh, money is, it's, it's often

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described as a, uh, uh, store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account.

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But, but the store of value part is, is kind of, uh, it's not, it's

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a metaphor and it's not optimal because you can't really store value

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since value is subjective, right?

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So, so we prefer like, um, the term medium of exchange over time.

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And that is what Rothbard, uh, because, and Mises himself described money just

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as a medium of exchange and nothing else.

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And Rothbard explains that more.

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The book I read is, uh, What Has Government Done to Our Money?

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I don't know if you read it or not, but it's a great

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read it.

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so he describes that money, uh, all fiat money or all money before

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Bitcoin was a receipt for something.

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So usually a commodity in a bank vault and usually gold.

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And if, if you didn't get the amount back that you put into the vault at some

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point, someone is stealing from you.

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And this is always true.

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And he makes that point very clear that no inflation is ever okay,

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because what we are having is a receipt for another commodity.

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And so I started to think about that and think about what that

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means for Bitcoin, because Bitcoin isn't a receipt for anything.

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This is what some no coiners, uh, don't get.

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They, they, they ask, what is Bitcoin backed by?

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But the thing is, Bitcoin is backed by, if you put in a certain amount

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of energy or time and energy in your workforce to, to, uh, your man hours

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to acquire a certain amount of Bitcoin.

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Then if you don't get that, that value back in the future,

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then the receipt didn't work.

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So it's sort of, and since Bitcoin is incorporating like the, all the

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energy and time and focus of every other person on earth, then that

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pie is inevitably growing forever.

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It's, it's just that it goes up and down before, before we reach, you know,

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Get closer to a hyperbitcoinization point, but theoretically it cannot

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go down on any longer time frame.

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What are your thoughts?

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Yeah.

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So, uh, so it's completely in line with what, uh, uh, what I've, what I see and

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what I see in this, uh, in this system.

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And it's the, these are.

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These are all different ways of explaining a system that has never

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existed before in humankind to, to be able to transition to that.

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They're just fractals of, of the transition to be able to explain it.

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Because in Rothbart and Mises and time, there was no way to

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escape what I'm about to say.

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5, 000 years, we've always lived in extractive systems.

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Somebody had to lose for us to win, right?

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And so we would, we would.

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Um, it would rise to top of emperors or nation states or kings, and they would

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invade other lands and put them into servitude and steal their resources,

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to be able to have the people within the, within the one land have success.

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So it's always been extractive and then, um, and then those extractive

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systems decayed over time because they centralized more and more and

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more and they became less productive and a new extractive system.

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It would, uh, would emerge.

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And the history of Hu Humans has always been through that and we've

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always consolidated money to, to be able to do that to other people.

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Whether we did it on gold, to be able to extract somebody else's gold, uh, and, and

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resources and put it in them in slavery.

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Whether we did it on, um, whether we reprice the gold, 'cause we won

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the war, whether we ensured our own citizens because we repressed the

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gold, but we always, always did that.

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So in 5,000 years of human history.

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of our thoughts on what the world must look like are within an extractive

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system that it's always looked like.

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And that's why this is so hard to understand for people, because this

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is a cooperative system and, and, and it's, and you can't change the rules.

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It's imposing that cooperative system on society and you don't

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have to even agree with it.

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It'll impose the cooperative system on you, right?

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Um, because if you're outside of the cooperative system, operating

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in the dishonored system.

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You're getting repriced anyways.

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No, it's super beautiful, and it's, uh, the way I see it from a praxeological

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or Austrian economics lens is that you have the catalytic competition

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and biological competition, right?

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So you have fang and claw in the world of nature, which is the biological

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competition where the winner takes all and there's always a loser involved.

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And catalytic competition is the free market process, uh, in which

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at least theoretically both parties win, or at least both parties think

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they have something to gain from the interaction, because it's consensual.

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And Bitcoin is moving us away from the fang and claw and

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into the cooperation thing.

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So it's, it's super simple.

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Like, the civilized way of doing things is, is pretty simple.

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Not aggressing against the other actor, and the barbaric way is to

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shove an axe into his forehead, so, and we're going away from that.

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Yeah, but why this is so important?

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Because most people's mindset is still in the other model.

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Most people's mindset, they believe that they can win.

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In a model that's extracting from other people and they're, they don't realize

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that if you're in the, if you're in the U.

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S.

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and you're at the, let's say if you're in middle of the U.

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S., you're, you're, um, then you're extracting a great deal from those

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in Africa and South America through, and other regions in the world.

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through a system that must be extractive.

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So you think, you put your head in the sand and you say, it's not me, those

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people aren't working hard enough, or those people, because you don't even know

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that you live in an extractive system.

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And so, a different way of saying this, Knut, which is just what I said in

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my book, the records skip across the, uh, the kind of, People understood.

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The natural state of the free market is deflation.

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That might be deflation, because we use things that give us more value,

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and the free market, when you said it gives us more value, we trade

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with people we don't like to gain more value, and both of us win.

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We don't need to, we don't need to be told to do it.

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We just naturally do it because it gives us more value, and that

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competition constantly competes.

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So the only way to be able to create a a monopoly inside of that

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system is to regulate it, to stop the free market, right, to stop

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the natural process from happening.

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And if the natural process happened.

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by the way, not, and I'm not saying if, because it is happening on

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Bitcoin, you have, um, you, the natural extension of that natural process is

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you have 8 billion people in service of 8 billion people and the amount of

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ideas that you remove people from the extraction, where they can't even live.

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Or they can't think like this and you move them to an area of contribution.

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Everyone wins.

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Everyone wins.

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add 7.

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5 billion minds.

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Two ideas, that compete for us in service of us.

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And that's what Bitcoin's doing.

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It's crazy.

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The,

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Yeah, it's super beautiful, and like, the, the, the, I think this is why

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it's so hard to grok for people, because it's, it's almost too simple.

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We do things without any violence.

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We exclude, we remove all the violence and everything gets better.

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We do, we cooperate.

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it's because of the idea is so profound and it's never existed before.

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It creates a cognitive dissonance in our brain, right?

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And it does for every single person going through Bitcoin,

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including me and including you.

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When you first understand Bitcoin.

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So if you use.

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That cognitive dissonance that I wrote this tweet the other day or Nostr post

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the other day that said that cognitive dissonance of the free market is

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deflationary, then creates this break against all of your previous past and

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what your brain does is tries Defend the reality that you live in while trying to

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hold this thought, because it is true.

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Both thoughts are true, right?

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And so what does it mean in the world that you live in?

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It means you've always lived in an extractive model.

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It means every single system, communism, free markets, socialism, capitalism,

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all of those systems are on top of a system that was always a control system.

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And so it forces that break and, and, and what happens in our brains is,

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is we try to resolve the conflict and can't resolve the conflict.

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The conflict becomes so big for us, for, for many people,

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especially experts in this.

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I'm just going to ignore it because it's too, I don't want to change my mind.

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I don't want to, because my mind, I was always right.

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And that, and that forces inside.

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I was always right.

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Because you weren't, neither was I, neither were you,

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neither were I, and you weren't.

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And that adapted in your mind to realize everything the construct that I believed

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in the world to be true wasn't true.

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And sometimes that's our ego holding us into that other thing

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that we cannot let go because it changes our perception of us.

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That's why this is such a hard journey for a lot of people because

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they can't let go of their previous.

236
00:14:59,081 --> 00:15:04,281
Mental construct to be able to understand that this, this is in service of everybody

237
00:15:04,321 --> 00:15:09,521
because they're trying to, they're trying to rationalize their old beliefs, right?

238
00:15:09,891 --> 00:15:14,001
And that, that cognitive dissonance, it creates a break in people's brains, right?

239
00:15:14,001 --> 00:15:20,811
And you can see, you can see even in my book, I had many people, we talked about

240
00:15:20,861 --> 00:15:28,001
this with even Peter McCormick, that, uh, that, that they read the book a bunch of

241
00:15:28,001 --> 00:15:32,726
different times, listen to the podcast, like, Interviewed for tons of different

242
00:15:32,726 --> 00:15:38,336
times and still kept going back and you see most people in Bitcoin at some

243
00:15:38,336 --> 00:15:42,886
point enter and they're still measuring Bitcoin from the other system and they're

244
00:15:42,886 --> 00:15:48,066
trying to resolve that conflict, um, but, but they'll all eventually resolve the

245
00:15:48,066 --> 00:15:50,716
conflict because it doesn't actually care.

246
00:15:51,306 --> 00:15:51,496
Right?

247
00:15:51,496 --> 00:15:53,531
It's, it's, it's, Forcing that,

248
00:15:54,608 --> 00:15:55,728
it's, it's so simple.

249
00:15:55,738 --> 00:15:59,978
Like, I, I see sometimes now, now that Bitcoin is touching a hundred thousand

250
00:15:59,978 --> 00:16:05,133
dollars, that some Bitcoiners To virtue signal, they say that, oh, but that's not

251
00:16:05,243 --> 00:16:10,313
just for inflation, and you should measure against gold, but measuring against

252
00:16:10,343 --> 00:16:18,173
anything is pointless, because this, to begin with, money is not a yardstick,

253
00:16:18,203 --> 00:16:22,433
but bitcoin is so different, they don't understand, it's not digital gold.

254
00:16:22,998 --> 00:16:24,058
It's a number in your head.

255
00:16:24,268 --> 00:16:27,048
It's not a commodity.

256
00:16:27,048 --> 00:16:28,038
It's a number in your head.

257
00:16:28,048 --> 00:16:31,758
It's a secret you keep from someone else that enables you

258
00:16:32,158 --> 00:16:34,738
to be friendly to your enemies.

259
00:16:34,798 --> 00:16:39,588
Like, to collaborate with anyone regardless of what they think about

260
00:16:39,618 --> 00:16:40,958
you and what you think about them.

261
00:16:41,857 --> 00:16:47,107
That's why you very rarely find Bitcoiners who go down to the depth of the

262
00:16:47,107 --> 00:16:51,747
understanding that then go back up, right?

263
00:16:51,997 --> 00:16:57,237
Because what it means, what it means is, if I go to the depth of the understanding

264
00:16:58,097 --> 00:17:01,947
of what this means and then go back up and choose something different, what

265
00:17:01,947 --> 00:17:06,367
it actually means is, I want to steal from other people to get rich fast.

266
00:17:06,887 --> 00:17:07,577
Exactly.

267
00:17:08,532 --> 00:17:13,252
And what it means is, and I talk to Odell a lot about this in Nashville

268
00:17:13,252 --> 00:17:16,422
a little while ago, and he's been in it longer than I have, and he goes

269
00:17:16,782 --> 00:17:21,102
it's interesting to watch what happens because everybody that tries to cheat

270
00:17:21,132 --> 00:17:24,302
bitcoin cheats themselves in the end.

271
00:17:25,622 --> 00:17:29,872
Because a cooperative system, just being cooperative in it.

272
00:17:30,387 --> 00:17:31,037
You do better.

273
00:17:31,458 --> 00:17:33,588
Yeah, it's the, it's the honey badger don't care.

274
00:17:33,618 --> 00:17:35,718
Like, that's exactly what that means.

275
00:17:35,718 --> 00:17:36,918
Honey badger doesn't care.

276
00:17:38,008 --> 00:17:40,518
no, and it's, uh, it's so beautiful.

277
00:17:40,548 --> 00:17:45,918
And like, uh, yeah, we've talked a bit about this, uh, great many times and

278
00:17:45,928 --> 00:17:51,483
I've fleshed out the whole idea of, uh, How the bitcoins exist within you.

279
00:17:51,573 --> 00:17:55,863
I, I truly believe that that, like on the deepest level, a bitcoin, a a

280
00:17:55,863 --> 00:17:57,963
satoshi is not a thing on the internet.

281
00:17:57,993 --> 00:18:03,283
It's a thing within human beings because the ability to move them is just a secret.

282
00:18:03,283 --> 00:18:07,633
We keep from one another, and the protocol is nothing but an agreement on a fixed set

283
00:18:07,633 --> 00:18:12,073
of rules that we agree on, because they're more expensive to try to break than

284
00:18:12,073 --> 00:18:17,713
to, than to just follow, which enables this trust, like ironically enough.

285
00:18:18,448 --> 00:18:24,868
Don't trust verify becomes global trust and it points out, I think

286
00:18:25,068 --> 00:18:28,938
it's also Bitcoin as a mirror, a mirror for the world and a mirror

287
00:18:28,938 --> 00:18:32,638
for everyone in it to see themselves through and see the world through.

288
00:18:33,658 --> 00:18:39,503
One of the things is this KYC bullshit, because like money was.

289
00:18:39,503 --> 00:18:46,543
Invented to, in order for people to not have to do KYC, like within a

290
00:18:46,543 --> 00:18:51,433
family, you know, everyone, like, so, so everything in Fiat land is so

291
00:18:51,503 --> 00:18:54,323
clownish and so absurd at this point.

292
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,390
it's like when you go to the bank and they ask you what you want to use your money

293
00:18:58,390 --> 00:19:03,080
for, like a bank is basically a multi sig, two out of three multi sig between

294
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,830
you, the state and the bank at this point.

295
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,310
And, and then they have no money.

296
00:19:07,629 --> 00:19:14,609
what is also true is, is, uh, most, just about everyone I know is still trapped

297
00:19:14,609 --> 00:19:16,139
in some regard in the other system.

298
00:19:17,629 --> 00:19:21,239
And a lot of Bitcoiners are still trapped in the other system and

299
00:19:21,239 --> 00:19:22,499
they're measuring price go up.

300
00:19:22,509 --> 00:19:22,529
Yeah.

301
00:19:22,529 --> 00:19:22,623
Yeah.

302
00:19:23,384 --> 00:19:26,404
And, and, and what they're doing is actually strengthening the

303
00:19:26,404 --> 00:19:32,124
derivative instrument of Bitcoin by, by thinking prices go up and

304
00:19:32,124 --> 00:19:33,894
Bitcoin goes up faster than prices.

305
00:19:34,914 --> 00:19:40,344
So the, that's, uh, and, and, and, and so if you, if you just think through

306
00:19:40,344 --> 00:19:42,294
that, these two systems are incompatible.

307
00:19:42,444 --> 00:19:45,614
The free market is incompatible over a long time with an inflationary

308
00:19:45,614 --> 00:19:48,204
based system because it has to steal more and more and it has

309
00:19:48,204 --> 00:19:49,334
to centralize more and more.

310
00:19:49,704 --> 00:19:51,374
The two opposite systems.

311
00:19:52,799 --> 00:20:03,259
And, and so, so if you're strengthening the fiat system by, if you are, by, uh, by

312
00:20:03,269 --> 00:20:08,549
pricing in fiat, then you're strengthening the system that's extracting from you.

313
00:20:10,759 --> 00:20:15,179
Um, and eventually, like if everybody did that, they won't, and this, the, the, the

314
00:20:15,179 --> 00:20:20,779
won't is because what you said before, uh, Knut, is, uh, what protects Bitcoin?

315
00:20:20,849 --> 00:20:21,309
Us.

316
00:20:21,409 --> 00:20:22,079
We are Bitcoin.

317
00:20:22,079 --> 00:20:26,579
And there's too many of us that already have seen it behind the veil.

318
00:20:27,344 --> 00:20:31,994
Uh, and, and, and are building the next and the next and the next to keep,

319
00:20:32,004 --> 00:20:35,884
make sure this stays decentralized and secure in a medium of exchange and

320
00:20:35,884 --> 00:20:40,294
private and all of these other things that are coming to be able to, to,

321
00:20:40,634 --> 00:20:44,934
uh, that, that the existing system has no idea they're even coming, right?

322
00:20:45,994 --> 00:20:51,999
That, um, because those people know that this is, this is, A state change

323
00:20:52,009 --> 00:20:55,939
for humanity to move to 8 billion people in service of 8 billion people.

324
00:20:56,209 --> 00:20:57,319
That's what those people know.

325
00:20:57,849 --> 00:20:59,929
And there, and there's more of us every day.

326
00:21:00,099 --> 00:21:03,509
Like if you look at what it was four years ago or eight years ago, there's

327
00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:07,649
more of us every single day, adding our voices and adding our minds to

328
00:21:07,659 --> 00:21:09,639
be able to protect this and see.

329
00:21:10,109 --> 00:21:13,479
And then there's a whole bunch of new people coming in that aren't quite there.

330
00:21:14,669 --> 00:21:18,679
But when you tell those new people, like sometimes when you go so deep as we're

331
00:21:18,689 --> 00:21:22,654
going right now, And you tell those new people, it's like, it's like you're

332
00:21:22,654 --> 00:21:27,414
talking crazy talk because they're still measuring Bitcoin in that other system.

333
00:21:27,784 --> 00:21:31,524
They're still thinking, they're still, all of their work, all of their, uh,

334
00:21:31,544 --> 00:21:36,514
their houses are going up in value, all of this, their entire structure is

335
00:21:36,514 --> 00:21:39,624
still in that old system and they're just trying to buy Bitcoin as a store

336
00:21:39,624 --> 00:21:44,174
of value or I need to get this to get rich quick to be able to trade Bitcoin.

337
00:21:44,934 --> 00:21:47,114
And some of those people will trade it and they'll lose out.

338
00:21:48,189 --> 00:21:50,769
And they'll constantly, they'll do the same thing and then a bunch of them

339
00:21:50,769 --> 00:21:55,249
will get wrecked and they'll move, a bunch of those people will move down

340
00:21:55,249 --> 00:21:58,999
and be like us in this new system and contribute all your time to this

341
00:21:58,999 --> 00:22:04,289
new system as this permeates across time and space to all people, right?

342
00:22:04,289 --> 00:22:04,989
That's that.

343
00:22:05,479 --> 00:22:08,199
So just such a natural evolution.

344
00:22:08,629 --> 00:22:10,869
Um, and there's all different levels.

345
00:22:10,869 --> 00:22:16,219
When we say Bitcoin on a decentralized and secure protocol, everybody

346
00:22:16,219 --> 00:22:17,869
understands it at a different level.

347
00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:23,860
Bitcoin And so you just have to, I tend to think, I don't need to do anything

348
00:22:23,950 --> 00:22:25,880
but let somebody else be where they are.

349
00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:30,590
I'm not trying to, like, I just know my truth.

350
00:22:30,670 --> 00:22:32,340
I know what I'm doing.

351
00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:36,450
And if their truth lives in this other thing, I'm not going to get mad at them.

352
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:39,900
It's just, eventually they'll see it.

353
00:22:40,365 --> 00:22:43,155
Yeah, there's no use in being mad at anyone.

354
00:22:43,205 --> 00:22:45,115
Like, not anymore.

355
00:22:46,095 --> 00:22:48,455
So, so two things there.

356
00:22:48,525 --> 00:22:55,460
I, uh, yeah, I hear from some Bitcoiners, some big names, uh, with, uh, that own,

357
00:22:55,580 --> 00:23:01,460
uh, 200, 000 bitcoins or more, that, uh, uh, let's say that the, the dollar

358
00:23:01,470 --> 00:23:06,930
and Bitcoin can coexist for a long time to come like, uh, and I don't see that.

359
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,100
I think I like Bitcoin is the, the antidote to the dollar in the long run.

360
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,830
Uh, so, so how long can they coexist?

361
00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:19,940
And is there a world where, where these two paths exist at the same time?

362
00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:22,730
And it's not obvious that the new system is better.

363
00:23:23,895 --> 00:23:27,865
this is a very nuanced question that, that you could, uh, that,

364
00:23:28,085 --> 00:23:31,675
um, that you have to break down in a whole bunch of different stages.

365
00:23:31,675 --> 00:23:36,235
And, and, and I might, even in breaking it down, because there's so much kind of

366
00:23:36,355 --> 00:23:41,745
taking aside in this, let's, let's try to, so push me on, on, on some of this.

367
00:23:42,035 --> 00:23:44,140
Let's, let's start with, The U.

368
00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:44,280
S.

369
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,080
dollar system.

370
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:46,520
For the U.

371
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:46,660
S.

372
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:49,640
dollar system to work, inflation is required.

373
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,340
And that inflation extracts more from other nations than it does the U.

374
00:23:55,340 --> 00:23:55,730
S.

375
00:23:57,290 --> 00:24:00,170
So those, those countries have to fail faster.

376
00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:04,820
But most people in those countries want the U.

377
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:04,970
S.

378
00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:05,520
dollars.

379
00:24:06,765 --> 00:24:10,815
Can you just, just explain why, why inflation is necessary?

380
00:24:10,855 --> 00:24:11,115
Like.

381
00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:16,540
So, so a credit, a credit based system has to have inflation because deflation

382
00:24:16,540 --> 00:24:17,840
is the natural state of the world.

383
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,160
So it has to have inflation to counteract the deflation because deflation

384
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,360
would kill the credit based system.

385
00:24:23,215 --> 00:24:23,815
It has to.

386
00:24:24,415 --> 00:24:26,575
Uh, so it's a mathematical certainty.

387
00:24:26,745 --> 00:24:30,585
And then inflation has to keep on rising to be able to pay back the debt.

388
00:24:31,535 --> 00:24:35,835
It's just a piece of paper that's worthless and eventually

389
00:24:35,845 --> 00:24:37,505
it has to, it has to resolve.

390
00:24:37,555 --> 00:24:37,995
Why the U.

391
00:24:37,995 --> 00:24:38,105
S.

392
00:24:38,105 --> 00:24:43,675
dollar lasts so long is they keep finding tricks to be able to extend its life first

393
00:24:43,705 --> 00:24:48,655
from the, take it off the gold reserve and then tie it to energy in the form of oil.

394
00:24:48,655 --> 00:24:49,370
That's Right?

395
00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:55,020
And, um, and now they're likely going to tie it to Bitcoin and to be

396
00:24:55,020 --> 00:25:00,730
able to remove the debt in Bitcoin terms and start the process over.

397
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,980
And most people within that, most people in that, so in Bitcoin terms

398
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,540
from people in Bitcoin, uh, as U.

399
00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:08,820
S.

400
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,930
builds treasury and other nations compete for treasury, um, denominated in U.

401
00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:14,080
S.

402
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:19,190
dollars, um, that's a centralizing function in Bitcoin, right?

403
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:20,650
They're competing to centralize.

404
00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:28,290
On a, on a system, uh, that looks like that, um, and, and from, from that system,

405
00:25:28,590 --> 00:25:34,070
it would appear you could make your debt go, go away because you're repricing as

406
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:35,690
you're buying, uh, as you're buying it.

407
00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:40,860
And then from that new stability of a system, stability.

408
00:25:41,690 --> 00:25:46,280
You could lever it up again, and most people wouldn't know, and they

409
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,710
would be trading in the derivative instrument of, because it wouldn't be

410
00:25:51,710 --> 00:25:53,520
as bad inflation as it's always been.

411
00:25:55,130 --> 00:25:56,900
And so they wouldn't know what's happening.

412
00:25:57,050 --> 00:26:00,150
They would think you've resolved the debt problem.

413
00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:01,860
And they would start again.

414
00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:06,530
Um, and in other nations, they would even do it more because

415
00:26:06,540 --> 00:26:07,910
the U S dollar would, right.

416
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:10,920
And, uh, and because they would want the U S dollar too.

417
00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:14,390
And there'd be a race for U S dollars, the derivative instrument

418
00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:16,290
on Bitcoin instead of Bitcoin itself.

419
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,590
And so that's a centralizing function.

420
00:26:19,650 --> 00:26:23,020
And most people are going to be completely blind to, uh, to that.

421
00:26:23,050 --> 00:26:29,650
In fact, all of the people right now that are, that are trading their Bitcoin for

422
00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:34,510
other other kind of holding a contract for Bitcoin and somebody else's self custody.

423
00:26:35,130 --> 00:26:39,450
Because they think Bitcoin is going up, whether it's any ETF and everything

424
00:26:39,450 --> 00:26:40,530
else, they're doing the same thing.

425
00:26:41,730 --> 00:26:45,860
I'm gonna get rich in this new system, it's going to reprice the other system.

426
00:26:45,860 --> 00:26:50,636
And, and I'm, I'm really thinking in US dollars and, and that

427
00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:52,556
trick is likely to be successful.

428
00:26:53,348 --> 00:26:54,878
And and then what would that mean?

429
00:26:55,298 --> 00:26:58,148
It would mean you'd resolve the, the, the debt crisis.

430
00:26:59,008 --> 00:27:03,348
Just like you resolved it from going to gold to the oil,

431
00:27:05,371 --> 00:27:10,291
you were able to bring it down into a more serviceable area and it'd all start again.

432
00:27:11,011 --> 00:27:12,971
And it's still an extractive based system.

433
00:27:13,471 --> 00:27:16,901
And because most people would live in that system and they would

434
00:27:16,911 --> 00:27:19,721
be pricing not in Bitcoin, they wouldn't be spending in Bitcoin.

435
00:27:20,186 --> 00:27:21,456
They would be spending in the thing.

436
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:27,156
Then as that central, centralized, because that system has to be inflationary,

437
00:27:29,766 --> 00:27:34,076
as that centralizes more and more, then the attack to Bitcoin comes

438
00:27:34,076 --> 00:27:37,729
from there later, a lot later, right?

439
00:27:37,789 --> 00:27:41,749
Because people will give up the, their self custodial, they'll give up

440
00:27:41,749 --> 00:27:46,829
their, or some people would, if enough people, let's just imagine, in thinking

441
00:27:46,829 --> 00:27:50,199
through these things, it's worth, we're thinking about our human action.

442
00:27:50,664 --> 00:27:50,974
Right?

443
00:27:51,574 --> 00:27:55,094
And what most people do, whether they say they'll do it or not.

444
00:27:56,204 --> 00:28:00,634
So, so today, everybody's yelling at the government, How dare you?

445
00:28:00,634 --> 00:28:01,234
How dare you?

446
00:28:01,234 --> 00:28:01,904
How dare you?

447
00:28:02,824 --> 00:28:06,854
Well, they would never vote for a deflationary spiral, because everything,

448
00:28:06,884 --> 00:28:10,544
every bank would collapse, every house, they own houses, all those houses would

449
00:28:10,554 --> 00:28:14,624
be worth zero, or, or a hundred dollars, because you would have no financial

450
00:28:14,624 --> 00:28:16,244
system, the whole thing would fail.

451
00:28:16,614 --> 00:28:19,539
So they yell at these people, Well, they make it stronger.

452
00:28:20,539 --> 00:28:22,649
Everything, all of these people, like all.

453
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:25,009
So there is no they, it's only us.

454
00:28:25,249 --> 00:28:26,139
And those incentives.

455
00:28:26,139 --> 00:28:28,979
So what would those people do in this new system?

456
00:28:29,389 --> 00:28:33,949
They're more than likely to trust other centralized actors.

457
00:28:35,139 --> 00:28:37,449
'cause it would appear that they were getting richer than

458
00:28:37,449 --> 00:28:39,529
other people in, in Bitcoin.

459
00:28:39,589 --> 00:28:43,414
And that trust, while they would all make like the US dollars had, uh,

460
00:28:43,434 --> 00:28:46,229
had, uh, had a lot of strength, right?

461
00:28:46,229 --> 00:28:50,129
It has strength right now as other countries, uh, collapse, that

462
00:28:50,129 --> 00:28:51,419
would be a centralizing function.

463
00:28:51,419 --> 00:28:55,499
And they would, they would eventually, or many people would eventually

464
00:28:55,969 --> 00:28:57,919
not understand the true risks.

465
00:28:58,469 --> 00:29:04,549
Of having something outside of that system in self custody that you were able to

466
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:10,089
trade with anybody all over the world that, uh, the, um, and then if that, if

467
00:29:10,089 --> 00:29:16,879
that gained enough centralization and the powers from that centralization, then the

468
00:29:16,879 --> 00:29:22,629
attack vector would come to, to how do we and, and the, the incentives from who?

469
00:29:23,409 --> 00:29:28,139
Kind of who's going to go against microstrategy, who's going to go

470
00:29:28,139 --> 00:29:32,969
against the US government, uh, on, on a bunch of these different things

471
00:29:33,019 --> 00:29:37,579
versus a repricing, repricing event or fork or whatever of Bitcoin.

472
00:29:37,619 --> 00:29:42,949
So that, that attack is still, is still probably a long ways away and a lot

473
00:29:42,949 --> 00:29:47,299
of, and a lot of people don't, don't understand that that attack has to happen.

474
00:29:48,729 --> 00:29:51,959
Has to, because you have two incongruent systems.

475
00:29:52,969 --> 00:29:54,139
One has to be inflation.

476
00:29:54,489 --> 00:29:55,289
One's deflation.

477
00:29:56,439 --> 00:29:59,639
But if you're pricing Bitcoin and you're in self custodial and

478
00:29:59,639 --> 00:30:04,084
you're building to, so what does, and then, That has nuance as well.

479
00:30:04,734 --> 00:30:09,514
That has nuance because, because, because, and that has nuance that

480
00:30:09,514 --> 00:30:12,764
even goes in beyond Bitcoin, like some of the different protocol or some of

481
00:30:12,764 --> 00:30:17,874
the different coins that said Bitcoin will fail because of, uh, because it

482
00:30:17,874 --> 00:30:25,404
doesn't have security or just isn't private are actually kind of right.

483
00:30:26,259 --> 00:30:28,149
In a different time frame, right?

484
00:30:28,469 --> 00:30:35,539
But they centralize their privacy coin to try to achieve it, and that wouldn't work.

485
00:30:35,869 --> 00:30:37,759
So privacy comes in other layers.

486
00:30:38,869 --> 00:30:43,929
Privacy comes in another layer on top of Bitcoin that gives it the privacy.

487
00:30:44,214 --> 00:30:47,704
And keeps the decentralization and security and that's what, that's

488
00:30:47,704 --> 00:30:51,444
what Fede, that's what Fedement would be, that's what Cashew would be.

489
00:30:51,914 --> 00:30:56,584
And so you're building this parallel path that some of the people, if

490
00:30:56,584 --> 00:31:00,504
you, if you, you could just say binary, they're all shit coiners.

491
00:31:01,504 --> 00:31:06,144
Or you could say inside some of the ideas of the shit, Bitcoiners were

492
00:31:06,144 --> 00:31:08,004
important ideas for Bitcoin as well.

493
00:31:09,494 --> 00:31:13,654
They, but, but the, but the way they, they came about it.

494
00:31:14,014 --> 00:31:15,784
They didn't understand this was a protocol.

495
00:31:15,784 --> 00:31:16,984
They thought it was a technology.

496
00:31:17,594 --> 00:31:22,064
And so if you, if you're, if you say, if you take the idea of privacy instead

497
00:31:22,154 --> 00:31:25,044
of the naming, those people are bad.

498
00:31:25,044 --> 00:31:26,004
These people are good.

499
00:31:26,484 --> 00:31:30,764
If you just take the idea and you realize it's going to come into a different

500
00:31:30,774 --> 00:31:36,624
layer, then those layers are going to be increasingly important in the next fight.

501
00:31:37,649 --> 00:31:42,379
think I, uh, I have a slightly different view here.

502
00:31:42,959 --> 00:31:43,449
But that's good.

503
00:31:43,779 --> 00:31:44,209
That's good.

504
00:31:44,484 --> 00:31:46,634
Yeah, so let's, let's see what you think about this.

505
00:33:22,216 --> 00:33:28,156
my hope and what I think is true, it is that there are already enough hodlers of

506
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:33,186
last resort to prevent that centralization of all the money from ever happening.

507
00:33:33,766 --> 00:33:39,726
Uh, so, and I based that on that, like most of the coins have already been mined.

508
00:33:39,776 --> 00:33:44,056
Like it's somewhere between 90, 95%.

509
00:33:44,096 --> 00:33:46,346
I think it's like 93, 94 or something.

510
00:33:47,001 --> 00:33:49,951
All of those coins are already on the market.

511
00:33:50,131 --> 00:33:57,511
Uh, very many of them are already held, uh, by individuals, uh, and individuals

512
00:33:57,561 --> 00:33:59,051
who we don't know who they are.

513
00:33:59,631 --> 00:34:04,431
And, uh, so, so governments and, and, and micro strategy for that

514
00:34:04,461 --> 00:34:08,001
matter can throw as much money as they want onto this thing.

515
00:34:08,341 --> 00:34:11,806
Like, MicroStrategy owns like a bit more than 1 percent of

516
00:34:11,806 --> 00:34:16,006
the total supply, and how many billions have they put into it now?

517
00:34:16,156 --> 00:34:21,556
Uh, it, like, in Bitcoin, it's the, uh, it, in fiat land, they say that

518
00:34:21,576 --> 00:34:23,116
the first million is the hardest.

519
00:34:23,146 --> 00:34:24,716
In Bitcoin, it's the other way around, right?

520
00:34:24,816 --> 00:34:28,576
The first million sats are the easiest, and it gets exponentially

521
00:34:28,576 --> 00:34:30,036
harder the more you try.

522
00:34:30,066 --> 00:34:34,406
And what you're doing at the same time is you're giving power, political power,

523
00:34:34,486 --> 00:34:42,566
economic power, everything, to Those who got it before you did, and the

524
00:34:42,576 --> 00:34:46,936
earlier they got it, the more likely it is that they are actual Bitcoiners

525
00:34:46,956 --> 00:34:50,626
and that they have these actual deep insights, if they still have the coins.

526
00:34:51,346 --> 00:34:54,806
Otherwise, they would have spent them, so their conviction is not that deep.

527
00:34:55,176 --> 00:35:00,846
So, like, the whole system is sort of self, it's designed in such a way to

528
00:35:00,846 --> 00:35:02,876
prevent exactly this from happening.

529
00:35:02,876 --> 00:35:04,806
What are your thoughts?

530
00:35:05,871 --> 00:35:06,091
Yeah.

531
00:35:06,091 --> 00:35:11,401
So, so I agree with those thoughts and I think, but, but just here, here's maybe,

532
00:35:11,941 --> 00:35:16,811
um, maybe a different way in, uh, in, in saying this in 5, 000 years of human

533
00:35:16,811 --> 00:35:22,651
history, We've always known how, uh, that, that many people have always known this,

534
00:35:22,671 --> 00:35:27,841
the secret that we now know that deflation and how money is controlled against us.

535
00:35:27,881 --> 00:35:32,396
Many people throughout, through a timeless understand the risks of it.

536
00:35:32,396 --> 00:35:35,121
And we've never been able to prevent it because of our, the

537
00:35:35,121 --> 00:35:37,331
centralization of that and why.

538
00:35:37,381 --> 00:35:40,701
And, and that means we must be part of the centralization.

539
00:35:42,611 --> 00:35:47,161
And, and, and because, uh, and we, maybe we never had the technology

540
00:35:47,161 --> 00:35:49,311
to be able to do, but your hope.

541
00:35:50,796 --> 00:35:56,776
Um, I have a way higher bar because, because I don't think

542
00:35:56,786 --> 00:35:58,216
people understand the incentive.

543
00:35:58,236 --> 00:36:01,016
They make trade offs for the short term incentives versus long term

544
00:36:01,016 --> 00:36:02,396
and they don't understand this.

545
00:36:02,616 --> 00:36:06,506
There are, I agree with you, there's more and more people coming down all

546
00:36:06,506 --> 00:36:09,846
the time and more and more people keeping this decentralized and secure.

547
00:36:10,056 --> 00:36:13,856
So I'm actually not at all worried about the failure of Bitcoin

548
00:36:14,576 --> 00:36:17,696
at all because we are there and there's more and more people.

549
00:36:19,416 --> 00:36:22,116
The failure of a lot of people on the way through.

550
00:36:23,446 --> 00:36:27,116
Because they're going to, they're going to be price and maybe nation states and

551
00:36:27,116 --> 00:36:31,496
everything else, they are going to be building from a debt based system and

552
00:36:31,576 --> 00:36:37,626
an inflationary based system and all of what that means against a, a, a neutral

553
00:36:37,626 --> 00:36:39,576
reserve assets that's deflationary.

554
00:36:40,246 --> 00:36:46,006
And if Bitcoin, a really simple axiom you could use is if Bitcoin

555
00:36:46,016 --> 00:36:48,176
failed as a, as a medium of exchange.

556
00:36:48,891 --> 00:36:50,711
It will fail as a store of value.

557
00:36:51,739 --> 00:36:55,039
This is, this is where I don't follow because how

558
00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:02,519
so, so, because, because if you didn't use it ever and you just, or you used

559
00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:08,175
it to lend against it, and you held it and you just created the lending

560
00:37:08,175 --> 00:37:12,635
environment again, all you have is new kings and those new kings would

561
00:37:12,635 --> 00:37:18,405
eventually be over, uh, overthrown by, by a centralized, uh, uh, structure.

562
00:37:18,675 --> 00:37:20,825
This has to be a medium of exchange.

563
00:37:20,885 --> 00:37:25,415
It has to be a peer to peer medium of exchange to stop the centralization

564
00:37:25,455 --> 00:37:28,405
of that, um, uh, from that.

565
00:37:28,635 --> 00:37:30,525
Uh, so, it will be.

566
00:37:31,095 --> 00:37:32,295
It is already.

567
00:37:33,785 --> 00:37:39,185
It's, it's building more privacy tools to be able to resist, uh, uh, resist that.

568
00:37:39,185 --> 00:37:41,855
So I'm not worried that it won't be.

569
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,510
But it has to be used as a medium of exchange to your point to your

570
00:37:46,510 --> 00:37:48,260
point on Rothbard in the beginning.

571
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:51,600
It's a medium of exchange.

572
00:37:52,328 --> 00:37:55,218
Yeah, but medium will change over time and space.

573
00:37:55,228 --> 00:37:58,838
So here's the counter argument to that from a slightly technical level.

574
00:37:59,248 --> 00:38:04,568
And, um, if I think this comes from your presentation, Luke, like the, the

575
00:38:04,628 --> 00:38:06,828
two transactions per lifetime figure.

576
00:38:07,238 --> 00:38:10,258
So if you divide all the Bitcoin between all the people, you, We each

577
00:38:10,258 --> 00:38:14,788
get like something like 232, 000 sats, um, or something like that.

578
00:38:14,798 --> 00:38:17,838
Well, I think that's the figure of 218, 000 or whatever it was.

579
00:38:18,468 --> 00:38:23,738
And there's enough, if we take a lifespan to be somewhere around 80, 85 years,

580
00:38:24,298 --> 00:38:28,748
uh, and everyone on earth is on Bitcoin and on chain, not on lightning, but on

581
00:38:28,748 --> 00:38:31,298
chain, we all get to do two transactions.

582
00:38:32,763 --> 00:38:33,893
in our, during

583
00:38:33,918 --> 00:38:34,493
our lives.

584
00:38:34,923 --> 00:38:35,283
that's

585
00:38:35,373 --> 00:38:36,853
all there is block space for.

586
00:38:37,423 --> 00:38:41,773
So, so, and we need, we need transactions to pay the miners.

587
00:38:41,843 --> 00:38:45,203
The miners need some income, especially after the last block is

588
00:38:45,413 --> 00:38:48,593
the last halving has played out.

589
00:38:49,163 --> 00:38:53,003
So, we need some activity on chain, but I'm not worried about that at all,

590
00:38:53,303 --> 00:38:58,953
because of the simple fact that there are so few, that block space is so limited,

591
00:38:59,513 --> 00:39:06,693
uh, so there will be a free market for, uh, for, um, competing, for making those

592
00:39:06,693 --> 00:39:12,342
transactions, and I think that's enough, and if you don't, please explain why.

593
00:39:12,342 --> 00:39:12,829
Yeah,

594
00:39:12,975 --> 00:39:13,285
Yeah.

595
00:39:13,285 --> 00:39:15,825
So, so, so I don't think he was.

596
00:39:15,835 --> 00:39:20,115
So if it ended up being that on on chain, that's why it won't ever look like that.

597
00:39:20,115 --> 00:39:20,995
It's a protocol.

598
00:39:21,495 --> 00:39:26,995
That, that, that moves it into lightning and, uh, to be able to transact at

599
00:39:27,005 --> 00:39:29,365
high volumes, um, around the world.

600
00:39:29,385 --> 00:39:33,505
And then it moves from there, uh, into Fediments and, and free

601
00:39:33,505 --> 00:39:35,945
banking, uh, it's completely private.

602
00:39:36,025 --> 00:39:39,665
And so you have a, you have a, you have a security, you have a

603
00:39:39,665 --> 00:39:41,295
security and decentralized layer.

604
00:39:42,045 --> 00:39:46,015
Um, and when fees go to, you could trade on it if you want, or you could trade,

605
00:39:46,105 --> 00:39:47,915
uh, lots of money on it if you want.

606
00:39:47,955 --> 00:39:50,545
And that's very open for people to see.

607
00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:56,280
If it was only that, and it was open to people to see and everybody were

608
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,200
trading on this other thing, and not very many people could trade on this,

609
00:40:01,390 --> 00:40:05,750
then eventually the government being that big, because it was, would come

610
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:09,080
and find those people and stop that.

611
00:40:10,610 --> 00:40:14,980
So it has to move up into, it has to move up into, uh, liquid

612
00:40:14,981 --> 00:40:20,185
lightning, uh, um, whether it's ARK, an interoperability layer.

613
00:40:20,845 --> 00:40:21,955
That is on top of that.

614
00:40:22,875 --> 00:40:26,185
And for two reasons, it has to move that because if you didn't have the

615
00:40:26,845 --> 00:40:31,085
interoperability layer on top of that, then people would try to to

616
00:40:31,205 --> 00:40:36,675
force changes onto the base layer that could pretend to to to and then and

617
00:40:36,685 --> 00:40:40,545
misunderstand something that could end up leading up to breaking Bitcoin.

618
00:40:40,955 --> 00:40:41,085
Right?

619
00:40:41,105 --> 00:40:42,645
It wouldn't harden, right?

620
00:40:42,665 --> 00:40:47,455
They would, they would introduce a change that could produce risk onto Bitcoin

621
00:40:47,815 --> 00:40:50,715
from a, from a base, base layer change.

622
00:40:51,205 --> 00:40:56,435
So you move the, you move the interoperability layer up into

623
00:40:56,435 --> 00:40:57,625
lightning and everything else.

624
00:40:57,625 --> 00:41:00,305
Now people can trade with it all over the world and it's more private.

625
00:41:01,045 --> 00:41:03,435
Um, and it still can't reach 8 billion people.

626
00:41:03,650 --> 00:41:09,170
Doing the transactions volumes that they do even on lightning and liquid.

627
00:41:09,370 --> 00:41:13,020
It might be able to get close, but fees would go higher and

628
00:41:13,790 --> 00:41:16,260
higher and higher through that.

629
00:41:16,810 --> 00:41:22,075
So then you have something that's extraordinarily private, Um, and

630
00:41:22,075 --> 00:41:24,995
Secure, and Fediment, and Cashew.

631
00:41:25,895 --> 00:41:31,115
That almost acts like the cities, so you have, you have the base layer, then you

632
00:41:31,125 --> 00:41:35,595
have the interconnectivity layer to the cities, and your city could be arbitrarily

633
00:41:35,595 --> 00:41:37,155
as big or small as you want it.

634
00:41:37,185 --> 00:41:39,065
Your city could be your family.

635
00:41:39,715 --> 00:41:43,875
Your city could be, um, a million people in your federation.

636
00:41:43,876 --> 00:41:48,155
And the trade off in that federation is the bigger the federation it is,

637
00:41:48,665 --> 00:41:53,725
the more risk in that private banking model, that the guardians rug pull you.

638
00:41:54,417 --> 00:42:00,427
but what, what gives that the ability to scale infinitely is you have the choice.

639
00:42:01,727 --> 00:42:04,187
It's not this, you can only use this bank.

640
00:42:05,177 --> 00:42:08,367
You have the choice to be in 10 banks at the same time, and you can have

641
00:42:08,367 --> 00:42:10,557
whatever trust model you want in that.

642
00:42:10,557 --> 00:42:13,907
And you can move money instantly without any fees and completely

643
00:42:13,907 --> 00:42:16,497
private within that, uh, within that.

644
00:42:16,497 --> 00:42:19,882
And that projects in layers, The entire stack.

645
00:42:22,188 --> 00:42:26,008
what people don't realize is that most of these things are already here.

646
00:42:26,743 --> 00:42:28,253
Yeah, that's it.

647
00:42:28,623 --> 00:42:29,023
That's it.

648
00:42:29,033 --> 00:42:31,173
They're already here and they're already emerging.

649
00:42:31,343 --> 00:42:33,413
They're emerging and they're growing really fast.

650
00:42:33,953 --> 00:42:39,203
And, um, just like Bitcoin has been here for 16 years, and if you have,

651
00:42:39,243 --> 00:42:44,773
if you bought it in the beginning, um, then your world, your worldview,

652
00:42:45,553 --> 00:42:46,953
the world was always deflationary.

653
00:42:48,533 --> 00:42:53,178
And if you, if you didn't get it until, uh, last year, And you

654
00:42:53,178 --> 00:42:56,508
were living in an inflationary environment until you got it right,

655
00:42:57,343 --> 00:42:57,703
Yeah.

656
00:42:57,888 --> 00:42:59,778
but all these things, all these things exist.

657
00:42:59,778 --> 00:43:03,048
They're already, they're already here and they're expanding really fast because

658
00:43:03,048 --> 00:43:07,718
more people are starting to understand the implications and move their time over

659
00:43:09,533 --> 00:43:09,893
Yeah.

660
00:43:09,933 --> 00:43:13,033
Um, Oh, um, there's so many thoughts in my head here.

661
00:43:13,073 --> 00:43:17,953
Uh, so, so, so let's say, let's say we, we, we, we, let's build

662
00:43:17,953 --> 00:43:20,333
up a pretty optimal scenario here.

663
00:43:20,433 --> 00:43:26,773
Uh, that most Bitcoiners, they get both the number go up technology, uh, function

664
00:43:27,373 --> 00:43:32,023
and the, uh, or I should say purchasing power go up instead of number go up

665
00:43:32,168 --> 00:43:34,328
way better way, be way, way better, way better

666
00:43:36,063 --> 00:43:38,663
So they get the purchasing power go up aspect of it.

667
00:43:39,413 --> 00:43:44,343
And they get the, uh, necessity of the medium of exchange thing from it.

668
00:43:45,153 --> 00:43:51,483
Uh, so that everyone realizes that their stacks should grow so big in

669
00:43:51,483 --> 00:43:57,303
purchasing power that they can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, uh,

670
00:43:57,363 --> 00:44:02,393
just a small portion of their entire stack so that they, so that the, the

671
00:44:02,643 --> 00:44:09,483
increasing purchasing power of the stack will, will increase, uh, so that

672
00:44:09,483 --> 00:44:12,968
they never have to worry about money again and still And they can still

673
00:44:12,968 --> 00:44:17,258
chip off the top and use, uh, this is like living off of compound interest,

674
00:44:17,258 --> 00:44:18,928
but there's no compound interest.

675
00:44:19,198 --> 00:44:23,248
There's no compound interest the other way where someone pays debt, uh,

676
00:44:23,978 --> 00:44:27,708
but like right now, it's very, it's very expensive to be poor and very,

677
00:44:28,083 --> 00:44:30,183
Uh, cheap to be rich in this world.

678
00:44:30,243 --> 00:44:36,013
And if you measure in fiat in Bitcoin, it's, uh, that's equalized.

679
00:44:36,953 --> 00:44:41,483
So I, I, I just said this on a different podcast, but, but I,

680
00:44:42,083 --> 00:44:45,833
I don't like to, I, I'm, I'm not trying to be a Bitcoin speaker.

681
00:44:45,893 --> 00:44:46,103
Right.

682
00:44:46,103 --> 00:44:47,963
I'm trying, like, I, I will.

683
00:44:47,963 --> 00:44:52,253
I, so, so I donate my time to a lot of conferences or, or podcasts

684
00:44:52,253 --> 00:44:53,543
to be able to move this out.

685
00:44:53,543 --> 00:44:57,583
But sometimes, like, I just to be able to actually almost

686
00:44:57,583 --> 00:44:59,263
stop all the demand on my time.

687
00:44:59,713 --> 00:45:03,223
The, uh, I, I hired an agent that just kind of.

688
00:45:03,783 --> 00:45:07,673
is speaking gigs, but I charged a lot for it.

689
00:45:08,553 --> 00:45:12,993
Because I, it's not something I want to spend my time doing all, uh, all the time.

690
00:45:13,603 --> 00:45:16,767
So, a personal version of what you're saying.

691
00:45:17,037 --> 00:45:21,617
So, so what was the fee that I wanted to charge if I, if I, if I

692
00:45:21,637 --> 00:45:23,287
said yes and I was free to do it?

693
00:45:23,647 --> 00:45:24,587
The fee was half a bitcoin.

694
00:45:25,972 --> 00:45:34,032
So now that, now my fee, now my fee, so, is in Canadian dollars, almost

695
00:45:34,032 --> 00:45:37,132
70, 000, 70, 000 an hour, right?

696
00:45:37,522 --> 00:45:43,582
And so that, um, and, and, that, maybe if I want to keep, if I want to do

697
00:45:43,582 --> 00:45:45,482
some, maybe I move it a quarter bitcoin.

698
00:45:46,312 --> 00:45:48,032
If I don't want to do any, maybe I move it up.

699
00:45:48,402 --> 00:45:51,672
But again, that fee will come down and down and down if I want

700
00:45:51,672 --> 00:45:53,862
to do that, uh, uh, that job.

701
00:45:54,137 --> 00:45:57,407
Because it'll be forced to in the free market of competitors and other people

702
00:45:57,407 --> 00:45:59,217
wanting to wanting to do that job.

703
00:45:59,727 --> 00:46:04,037
And so every single thing from that mindset is exactly the same.

704
00:46:04,047 --> 00:46:08,587
Like your house value is falling, your all energy prices are falling, all prices

705
00:46:08,587 --> 00:46:14,357
are falling relative to that as the free, the global free market competes in that.

706
00:46:14,487 --> 00:46:16,637
And it's just a unit bias that people have.

707
00:46:17,162 --> 00:46:22,462
to their old system that is keeping them trapped in, uh, in, in the trap system.

708
00:46:22,462 --> 00:46:25,042
And most people are taking Bitcoin to convert it to the piece of

709
00:46:25,042 --> 00:46:26,732
paper to then price the world.

710
00:46:27,022 --> 00:46:33,422
And they're not, they're, they're not in, they're still in the unit bias, right?

711
00:46:33,422 --> 00:46:36,342
They're still in the, they're still in the, they're still in the matrix.

712
00:46:36,342 --> 00:46:39,452
They think they're out of the matrix because they're, because

713
00:46:39,462 --> 00:46:43,792
they're, um, their purchasing power is going up in US dollars.

714
00:46:44,487 --> 00:46:47,137
Versus other people that is going down if you don't hold Bitcoin,

715
00:46:47,417 --> 00:46:48,527
but they're still in the matrix.

716
00:46:49,247 --> 00:46:49,487
yeah.

717
00:46:49,487 --> 00:46:54,647
So this is so fascinating because like in a way that, that effect you just

718
00:46:54,647 --> 00:46:59,137
described about your price pricing, your talks, maybe Bitcoin is trying to

719
00:46:59,137 --> 00:47:04,097
tell you something like maybe Bitcoin is trying to tell you, this is like, so.

720
00:47:04,407 --> 00:47:07,187
You should follow the market signal, right, if you want to make money.

721
00:47:07,547 --> 00:47:11,767
And that means, uh, you allocate your time and resources to what people want

722
00:47:11,827 --> 00:47:16,597
to do, want you to do the most so that you're of most value to other people.

723
00:47:17,127 --> 00:47:21,287
But Bitcoin and pricing things in Bitcoin and your, your own value and

724
00:47:21,287 --> 00:47:23,477
how you value yourself is going up.

725
00:47:23,777 --> 00:47:28,912
So maybe the market You know, in a, in a system that where 8 billion people

726
00:47:28,912 --> 00:47:32,692
are helping 8 billion people, maybe the system tells you to be home with

727
00:47:32,692 --> 00:47:34,532
your family more and not work as much.

728
00:47:34,937 --> 00:47:35,777
Well, yeah.

729
00:47:35,847 --> 00:47:40,977
So it's, it's so that this thing, because it has to touch it's, it's the only non

730
00:47:40,977 --> 00:47:46,067
counterparty asset or non counterparty that's not centralized in the world.

731
00:47:46,137 --> 00:47:47,082
Every other thing.

732
00:47:47,202 --> 00:47:50,452
Every other thing is priced from the system, GDP, all of these

733
00:47:50,462 --> 00:47:51,932
things are all within the matrix.

734
00:47:52,272 --> 00:47:56,102
And then you have this bound, you have this open decentralized protocol

735
00:47:56,332 --> 00:48:00,072
bounded by energy that is telling you the truth, that's a truth machine.

736
00:48:00,622 --> 00:48:04,452
And so it's, it's describing this 8 billion people in

737
00:48:04,452 --> 00:48:05,642
service of 8 billion people.

738
00:48:05,642 --> 00:48:09,102
And what should ha, what should happen in the deflationary system?

739
00:48:09,182 --> 00:48:13,422
What should happen is productivity growth is faster deflation.

740
00:48:14,432 --> 00:48:15,502
What should happen.

741
00:48:16,112 --> 00:48:19,152
Um, that's, that's why it's actually so simple.

742
00:48:19,172 --> 00:48:23,482
It's so simple because if you're in this system, what should happen is

743
00:48:23,482 --> 00:48:25,222
actually happening everywhere, right?

744
00:48:25,312 --> 00:48:28,892
It's having faster and faster rate because it doesn't matter if a

745
00:48:28,892 --> 00:48:30,422
government wants to get way bigger.

746
00:48:31,862 --> 00:48:35,552
It doesn't matter if a government wants to print 10 trillion.

747
00:48:36,032 --> 00:48:37,932
It doesn't matter any of this thing.

748
00:48:38,192 --> 00:48:42,222
This is imposing this discipline on the world.

749
00:48:42,552 --> 00:48:44,932
And you, and prices should be falling on everything.

750
00:48:45,212 --> 00:48:46,472
And they are falling on everything.

751
00:48:46,572 --> 00:48:51,412
It's just you're, most people are, still think they're rising in their bill.

752
00:48:51,512 --> 00:48:54,032
Uh, uh, and it doesn't matter.

753
00:48:54,032 --> 00:48:57,392
Like, you know, the, uh, Weimar chart, that massive, right?

754
00:48:57,392 --> 00:49:01,632
Uh, deflation, inflation, deflation, deflation.

755
00:49:01,942 --> 00:49:05,542
And if you were whipsawed, uh, if you were whipsawed across that and trying to

756
00:49:05,542 --> 00:49:09,807
make choices within that system, you'd get, Flushed out on one side, flushed

757
00:49:09,807 --> 00:49:11,587
out on the other, flushed, flushed, flushed, flushed, flushed, flushed,

758
00:49:11,587 --> 00:49:15,207
because you couldn't, you're, you're, you're, you're inside an unstable system.

759
00:49:15,697 --> 00:49:18,617
And we laugh at that and all the people say, oh, those people,

760
00:49:18,627 --> 00:49:19,777
how didn't they understand it?

761
00:49:20,267 --> 00:49:21,637
And they're doing that right now.

762
00:49:23,187 --> 00:49:26,647
All of, all the people in the world are measuring that, are doing that right

763
00:49:26,647 --> 00:49:28,867
now at some sort of relative debasement.

764
00:49:30,357 --> 00:49:32,307
Let's imagine both scenarios, right?

765
00:49:32,357 --> 00:49:35,017
So the world's balance sheet is 900 trillion dollars.

766
00:49:36,767 --> 00:49:37,787
Your house.

767
00:49:38,787 --> 00:49:40,537
is in that 900 trillion dollars.

768
00:49:41,097 --> 00:49:47,347
Uh, the, uh, the, it's, it's backed, it's by 400 trillion dollars of debt.

769
00:49:47,737 --> 00:49:49,447
So you probably have a mortgage on your house.

770
00:49:49,817 --> 00:49:55,747
Um, that, uh, uh, or somebody said to me, um, I'm not long enough Bitcoin.

771
00:49:56,127 --> 00:49:59,947
Because I have a house.

772
00:49:59,947 --> 00:50:04,097
But you probably have a mortgage on your house.

773
00:50:04,607 --> 00:50:08,547
That 400 trillion dollars that is backed by all of that debt, and I'm

774
00:50:08,547 --> 00:50:11,764
not talking unfunded liabilities, I'm just talking known liabilities,

775
00:50:11,764 --> 00:50:14,612
that 400 trillion dollars.

776
00:50:14,862 --> 00:50:15,882
It's already insolvent.

777
00:50:15,942 --> 00:50:20,162
It would take, uh, 12, 873, 000 years paying back a dollar a

778
00:50:20,162 --> 00:50:21,612
second to pay back that debt.

779
00:50:22,212 --> 00:50:25,872
So, so you know this, we talk about it all the time, but if you just

780
00:50:25,872 --> 00:50:32,582
say, insolvent, but then carry to the logical thing, that means your

781
00:50:32,582 --> 00:50:34,212
house isn't worth the same price.

782
00:50:34,512 --> 00:50:38,862
Because if that debt is insolvent, and your house is on top of

783
00:50:38,862 --> 00:50:42,512
that, if the debt ever became insolvent, your house is worth it.

784
00:50:42,872 --> 00:50:43,432
pennies.

785
00:50:45,332 --> 00:50:48,122
You couldn't sell your house because there'd be no money

786
00:50:48,142 --> 00:50:49,312
to be able to buy your house.

787
00:50:49,562 --> 00:50:50,472
Nobody would have it.

788
00:50:50,702 --> 00:50:55,062
It would be, that would be such a cleansing and a deflationary spiral.

789
00:50:55,152 --> 00:50:55,952
Everything would fail.

790
00:50:55,952 --> 00:50:56,792
Every bank would fail.

791
00:50:56,852 --> 00:50:57,752
Everything would fail.

792
00:50:58,542 --> 00:51:02,572
And you would be begging governments to print more money to make your house

793
00:51:02,612 --> 00:51:06,762
because your, that means your debt that you have on your house would fail and

794
00:51:06,772 --> 00:51:08,362
you would be in servitude to the debt.

795
00:51:09,552 --> 00:51:11,422
And if that happened before the bank failed, right?

796
00:51:11,702 --> 00:51:15,587
And you would be begging the governments to centralize And bail out the economy.

797
00:51:15,937 --> 00:51:17,587
So that's our human action.

798
00:51:17,647 --> 00:51:20,557
And we say it's all those other people, but it's us, right?

799
00:51:21,387 --> 00:51:27,367
And so, so, but if that happened, and it just, and that's why if you just

800
00:51:27,367 --> 00:51:32,617
look at really binary or really end, uh, point, uh, uh, examples and I,

801
00:51:32,617 --> 00:51:36,217
you understand what would human nature look like in that en environment?

802
00:51:36,567 --> 00:51:40,517
Then you can understand this at a, uh, then you can kind of play

803
00:51:40,517 --> 00:51:43,157
all of the different scenarios on, on, on the way through.

804
00:51:43,857 --> 00:51:46,487
But if that happened, that tail event happened, which it won't.

805
00:51:47,482 --> 00:51:52,372
But if that tail event happened, then Bitcoin would be the only thing of value.

806
00:51:54,272 --> 00:51:56,682
There wouldn't be anything else.

807
00:51:56,992 --> 00:52:00,442
And all of the other prices would fall so far

808
00:52:03,202 --> 00:52:05,122
that your Bitcoin would still be infinite,

809
00:52:06,902 --> 00:52:07,282
This

810
00:52:07,282 --> 00:52:07,642
right?

811
00:52:08,002 --> 00:52:08,522
divided by

812
00:52:08,677 --> 00:52:11,782
divided by that.

813
00:52:11,782 --> 00:52:15,947
And if the other event happens, The inflationary event, which is far more

814
00:52:15,947 --> 00:52:19,977
likely as currencies continue to do this.

815
00:52:20,737 --> 00:52:24,507
Then if you're measuring from the current currency, it will appear bitcoins just

816
00:52:24,507 --> 00:52:29,278
going up faster than the inflation rate, A lot faster, like a 50 percent

817
00:52:29,288 --> 00:52:35,098
IRR, whereas if you own a house, the IRR for the last 100 years is 8.

818
00:52:35,098 --> 00:52:39,058
5 percent because what's the, what's the IRR of a house?

819
00:52:39,078 --> 00:52:41,858
It's exactly the M2 rate of money printing.

820
00:52:42,958 --> 00:52:43,858
It hasn't gone up.

821
00:52:43,988 --> 00:52:49,348
It's just the money that's gone down, but people, um, and so, so in both

822
00:52:49,428 --> 00:52:53,658
appearances in on both those tail events, it actually doesn't matter.

823
00:52:53,898 --> 00:52:56,308
Bitcoin is repricing the world in any event.

824
00:52:56,338 --> 00:52:57,768
It doesn't, it doesn't care.

825
00:52:58,128 --> 00:52:58,368
Right?

826
00:52:58,858 --> 00:53:01,968
And then you're, and now let's do the math on that.

827
00:53:02,173 --> 00:53:07,763
So the math on that is if it, and it's not exact math because, but I'm

828
00:53:07,793 --> 00:53:12,583
just saying your perceived purchasing power, if you had a house with a

829
00:53:12,583 --> 00:53:19,223
million dollars of equity and 200, 000 of debt, you believe your perceived

830
00:53:19,233 --> 00:53:22,303
purchasing power is about 800, 000.

831
00:53:22,333 --> 00:53:25,633
You believe it's a bank that you can, you can spend.

832
00:53:25,643 --> 00:53:28,003
You think like that and lots of people do.

833
00:53:28,143 --> 00:53:31,363
I can always draw on my house to be able to spend.

834
00:53:31,693 --> 00:53:38,013
So our perceived purchasing power of 900 trillion, balance sheet, divided

835
00:53:38,013 --> 00:53:43,893
by, uh, divided by 21 million, or what if you could divide it by 17 million

836
00:53:43,893 --> 00:53:49,123
if you said lost coins, but if you, uh, it's 43 million dollars today.

837
00:53:50,528 --> 00:53:56,828
In perceived purchasing power, um, if we just advance next year, next

838
00:53:56,828 --> 00:54:00,208
year, next year, we know the 900 trillion won't be 900 trillion.

839
00:54:01,348 --> 00:54:04,658
We know it's going to be higher and the 400 trillion won't be 400 trillion.

840
00:54:04,658 --> 00:54:06,558
It's going to be in the quadrillions because the money

841
00:54:06,558 --> 00:54:08,888
printing machine has to go crazy.

842
00:54:09,348 --> 00:54:12,818
So the perceived purchaser purchasing power of Bitcoin.

843
00:54:12,828 --> 00:54:18,038
So when people talk prices in Bitcoin, I like, I, I get crazy.

844
00:54:18,683 --> 00:54:22,503
Because, because they're, they're, they're, they're talking about these

845
00:54:22,513 --> 00:54:27,843
things from this nonsense, measured in the nonsense, without taking all of

846
00:54:27,843 --> 00:54:31,203
the variables, uh, uh, into account.

847
00:54:31,233 --> 00:54:33,563
So they're actually reinforcing the nonsense.

848
00:54:34,148 --> 00:54:39,738
So, but, but in purchasing power, and all Bitcoin has to do is stay decentralized

849
00:54:39,738 --> 00:54:41,358
and secure for this to happen.

850
00:54:41,868 --> 00:54:46,568
In purchasing, today's purchasing power of a Bitcoin, in time, is 43 million

851
00:54:46,568 --> 00:54:48,128
dollars against today's balance sheet.

852
00:54:49,077 --> 00:54:52,917
now add another variable, and this is probably a bigger variable, and

853
00:54:52,917 --> 00:54:55,097
this is where this heals the world.

854
00:54:56,097 --> 00:54:57,827
You could never spend that, ever.

855
00:54:58,097 --> 00:55:00,157
You couldn't come close to spending that, ever.

856
00:55:00,487 --> 00:55:04,047
Because in this world, prices will always fall.

857
00:55:04,317 --> 00:55:08,447
So the purchasing power of that 43 million goes up and up and up.

858
00:55:08,807 --> 00:55:11,207
Because the productivity rate of the world flows to you.

859
00:55:12,780 --> 00:55:14,080
it's so beautiful.

860
00:55:14,340 --> 00:55:20,940
Like, this reminds me of, um, uh, an old article you wrote called

861
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:22,610
Finding Signal in the Noise.

862
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,680
And we have our own take on that in the book as well, which is

863
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:28,840
that Bitcoin is not the signal.

864
00:55:29,310 --> 00:55:32,450
Bitcoin is just the greatest noise removal tool ever invented.

865
00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:37,170
Because what it does, what you're describing here is exactly that.

866
00:55:37,350 --> 00:55:39,780
This is like taking away all the layers of noise.

867
00:55:40,250 --> 00:55:46,310
So that you can find your signal, like where you're needed, where you can be

868
00:55:46,310 --> 00:55:52,640
valuable to others, where you can do most good, and where you can fit in to

869
00:55:52,890 --> 00:55:56,760
make the planet a little better when you leave it than when you entered it.

870
00:55:57,287 --> 00:55:59,547
So I loved this take.

871
00:55:59,547 --> 00:56:03,682
I'm going to, um, I'm going to, uh, uh, credit a friend of mine,

872
00:56:03,712 --> 00:56:05,772
Tom, that, so he found my book.

873
00:56:05,782 --> 00:56:08,642
He read, uh, uh, uh, rockstar real estate.

874
00:56:09,212 --> 00:56:16,282
Um, and, but I saw him do an interview, uh, that, uh, took some of my work and

875
00:56:16,282 --> 00:56:20,902
actually then expanded on it and, and, and, and in, in a very personal way.

876
00:56:22,112 --> 00:56:25,592
And so why do we choose a job and what do we, what do we do?

877
00:56:25,872 --> 00:56:30,762
And a lot of times, a lot of humans are, are trading what they do best.

878
00:56:31,577 --> 00:56:34,777
For what they need to get the most money from.

879
00:56:37,047 --> 00:56:41,627
So, so today my, my son wants to go into finance.

880
00:56:41,717 --> 00:56:42,857
Why does he want to go in finance?

881
00:56:42,857 --> 00:56:46,327
And I'm trying to talk him out of it like crazy, because, because I said

882
00:56:46,537 --> 00:56:50,557
the, the, that's where all his friends think they can make the most money.

883
00:56:50,567 --> 00:56:53,327
And that's where the kind of the fee I need to make enough money.

884
00:56:54,962 --> 00:57:00,692
Um, and, and, and a lot of these people are the best musicians or the best artists

885
00:57:00,692 --> 00:57:05,532
or the best, uh, best anything that have ever existed, but they've trapped their

886
00:57:05,532 --> 00:57:11,952
time in a system working because they need to make money in, uh, in that system.

887
00:57:11,972 --> 00:57:15,062
So they give up on who they really are, the, the, the

888
00:57:15,062 --> 00:57:16,752
genius that they could give us.

889
00:57:17,642 --> 00:57:22,762
Because, because of the trap of the system, and we all lose because of that.

890
00:57:23,582 --> 00:57:27,382
And so, and, and, and if you think, I'll bet you a whole bunch of people

891
00:57:27,382 --> 00:57:32,952
listening to this podcast right now are doing that in the other system,

892
00:57:33,652 --> 00:57:35,332
because they need to make the money.

893
00:57:35,892 --> 00:57:40,102
They need, they're so, I need, I, one day I'll get out if I just make enough,

894
00:57:40,342 --> 00:57:43,132
and it's getting further and further away from them, and they're feeling,

895
00:57:43,182 --> 00:57:46,212
feeling trapped, and they don't know they're trapped from the very same thing.

896
00:57:46,222 --> 00:57:49,032
And you can just move your time, and you start moving your time.

897
00:57:50,482 --> 00:57:52,012
And you see something totally different.

898
00:57:52,595 --> 00:57:57,815
Absolutely, like, this, back to the signal and noise, like, I think, I

899
00:57:57,815 --> 00:58:03,065
think this is, uh, when you listen to this undistorted market signal that is

900
00:58:03,185 --> 00:58:07,665
with all the noise removed, which is Bitcoin, like, or what the market is

901
00:58:07,665 --> 00:58:12,453
trying to tell you to do, That is the same thing as as dropping your ego.

902
00:58:13,163 --> 00:58:17,563
It really is because your ego is what you're describing right now that you're

903
00:58:17,593 --> 00:58:22,783
in the in the fiat system where you want to do stuff because you want to make the

904
00:58:22,793 --> 00:58:24,843
most amount of money the quickest way.

905
00:58:25,388 --> 00:58:31,168
That is your ego trying to, trying to achieve something, uh, that is not

906
00:58:31,168 --> 00:58:35,138
really good for you and, or not good for your psyche, not as good for you as

907
00:58:35,138 --> 00:58:39,905
it would have been to just follow your heart and, and also listen to the market

908
00:58:39,955 --> 00:58:41,745
tell you where you're needed the most.

909
00:58:41,755 --> 00:58:43,885
So like, if you're good at carpentry, you could be a

910
00:58:44,105 --> 00:58:49,345
it might, it might not be like, so it, it, it could be, but it could be just

911
00:58:49,375 --> 00:58:51,275
like, if you, if you think about kind of.

912
00:58:51,875 --> 00:58:56,285
Like base needs and somebody what they tell themselves, I have to have this.

913
00:58:56,695 --> 00:59:02,695
I don't want to call, maybe at a higher level enlightenment it is around ego, but

914
00:59:02,695 --> 00:59:06,855
I don't, I certainly don't want to call somebody out, because they feel, because

915
00:59:06,965 --> 00:59:12,385
their world is true for them, and it's just a mere reflection, but if you feel

916
00:59:12,395 --> 00:59:17,450
like you can't, Pay your bills, and you can't do this, and you need two jobs to

917
00:59:17,450 --> 00:59:21,690
be able to pay, uh, uh, pay your bills and do whatever so your family can, uh,

918
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,040
no matter where you are in the world, or if you're somewhere else and you have to

919
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:32,000
get on a boat to save your family against the excruciating, punishing system, who

920
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,060
am I to be able to judge that person?

921
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:39,730
Because for their, for their view, from their point of view, it might not

922
00:59:39,730 --> 00:59:41,570
be ego at all, it might be survival.

923
00:59:42,405 --> 00:59:44,875
No, no, it's being, it's being enforced.

924
00:59:45,015 --> 00:59:47,785
Like, so it's being imposed upon people.

925
00:59:47,820 --> 00:59:48,650
yeah, yeah, they just

926
00:59:48,650 --> 00:59:48,820
don't

927
00:59:48,915 --> 00:59:50,075
a deliberate choice.

928
00:59:50,485 --> 00:59:54,335
Uh, just most people just don't know that they actually do have a choice.

929
00:59:54,985 --> 01:00:02,450
Uh, and that, and that choice in, It can, can help you find this ego dropping

930
01:00:02,450 --> 01:00:04,170
state that comes 10 years down the line.

931
01:00:05,025 --> 01:00:08,425
totally, because we've all, we all go through the same thing in Bitcoin, we

932
01:00:08,425 --> 01:00:12,625
have to resolve the paradoxes in our own mind as we go deeper and deeper

933
01:00:12,625 --> 01:00:16,845
and we, we see the world for what it really is or was, but we didn't know it

934
01:00:16,845 --> 01:00:20,695
before we started the journey either, right, even if we could, even if we

935
01:00:20,695 --> 01:00:27,315
could sense it, like the, for me, the, it's always something I could sense,

936
01:00:27,975 --> 01:00:29,495
but I couldn't put my finger on it,

937
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:31,750
I feel exactly the same.

938
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:36,760
The, the, um, yeah, and, and it took a, it took a, it took a long

939
01:00:36,790 --> 01:00:39,160
time to be able to resolve that.

940
01:00:39,490 --> 01:00:42,890
I had to unlearn a whole bunch of the things I took for granted to be

941
01:00:42,890 --> 01:00:46,930
able to really understand the depth of what we're talking about here.

942
01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:48,930
Yeah, it's truth goggles.

943
01:00:49,180 --> 01:00:53,990
That's why I think that that old John Carpenter movie, They Live, that's one

944
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:57,230
of the best memes, my favorite memes in Bitcoin, where the guy has the truth

945
01:00:57,230 --> 01:01:00,330
goggles and he puts them on and he sees the world for what it really is.

946
01:01:00,515 --> 01:01:00,885
Yeah,

947
01:01:01,345 --> 01:01:04,865
That's exactly what Bitcoin feels like, like just seeing the

948
01:01:04,865 --> 01:01:08,425
world through this lens, like the prices should be going down.

949
01:01:08,425 --> 01:01:11,915
It's obvious, like, if you practice doing something, do you get better

950
01:01:11,915 --> 01:01:13,365
or worse at doing that thing?

951
01:01:13,795 --> 01:01:14,525
You get better.

952
01:01:14,745 --> 01:01:18,315
So, why aren't all prices going down forever, always?

953
01:01:18,365 --> 01:01:22,215
Like, that's the inevitable, like, that should be the follow up question.

954
01:01:24,485 --> 01:01:28,275
that's the point, and it's such a record skip, like it just drags across

955
01:01:28,275 --> 01:01:34,165
your brain, and most people when you hear, when I say that the natural

956
01:01:34,165 --> 01:01:38,725
state of the free market is deflation, it's crazy how many people nod.

957
01:01:40,235 --> 01:01:42,915
And, but then go directly back to their old system.

958
01:01:43,694 --> 01:01:47,954
but it must be the, the bias comes from having lived for 5,

959
01:01:47,954 --> 01:01:49,904
000 years in the opposite system.

960
01:01:50,914 --> 01:01:55,844
Yeah, we're literally, we talked about this, we kind of went deep,

961
01:01:56,134 --> 01:01:59,324
kind of on a spiritual level on our last podcast and how that comes

962
01:01:59,324 --> 01:02:01,904
into action, uh, for all of us.

963
01:02:02,694 --> 01:02:03,174
Uh,

964
01:02:05,229 --> 01:02:07,299
Where does, where does a thought come from?

965
01:02:07,299 --> 01:02:13,549
So, um, it's emergent from what we're talking about.

966
01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:14,069
It's emerged.

967
01:02:14,079 --> 01:02:19,439
So if we lived in a system of extraction, then you would expect most thoughts

968
01:02:19,449 --> 01:02:22,949
from that system to be on top of that.

969
01:02:23,319 --> 01:02:26,349
So to be able to see something that's totally different, that you, where

970
01:02:26,349 --> 01:02:28,939
you don't have a mental model, you don't, you actually don't have the

971
01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:31,439
mental lattice to hold on to this.

972
01:02:32,319 --> 01:02:35,699
It's, it's why, it's actually why it's actually such an exciting

973
01:02:35,709 --> 01:02:39,659
like what you do on your podcast, what others do on their podcast,

974
01:02:40,009 --> 01:02:42,049
is actually exploring these things.

975
01:02:42,704 --> 01:02:46,554
There are this fractal of all different ways to be able to describe this,

976
01:02:46,654 --> 01:02:53,674
this, this thing from, from something that most, most of us and none of

977
01:02:53,674 --> 01:02:56,724
us at one time had a mental model.

978
01:02:56,984 --> 01:02:59,854
We don't have the neurons firing to hold onto that thought.

979
01:03:00,764 --> 01:03:03,454
So it's easier to hold on, it's easier to hear it.

980
01:03:04,174 --> 01:03:07,954
And then go back to the other safety or what perceived safety of the other system.

981
01:03:08,374 --> 01:03:10,474
'cause all of our thoughts re reside in that.

982
01:03:10,864 --> 01:03:15,294
But once you're, once you, once you do have a mental model of

983
01:03:15,294 --> 01:03:16,494
what it actually looks like.

984
01:03:16,614 --> 01:03:21,934
And by the way, I can see, I, I can see I don't wanna imperfect clarity

985
01:03:21,934 --> 01:03:25,234
or in my mind's eye I can see even if I can't describe it either.

986
01:03:25,644 --> 01:03:29,214
But yeah, it to totally how beautiful this world looks like.

987
01:03:29,244 --> 01:03:30,384
How fast.

988
01:03:30,924 --> 01:03:36,004
Uh, how fast the cooperation happens, how, what it actually looks like for people

989
01:03:36,004 --> 01:03:41,664
when you unlock seven and a half billion brains in service of, uh, like eight

990
01:03:41,664 --> 01:03:45,634
billion brains in service of eight billion people, what we will find, what we will

991
01:03:45,634 --> 01:03:48,604
discover in service of us, we are Bitcoin.

992
01:03:49,782 --> 01:03:49,982
Yeah.

993
01:03:51,262 --> 01:03:56,222
I mean, uh, uh, all this talk about AI, like this combined

994
01:03:56,222 --> 01:03:58,772
brain power of 8 billion brains.

995
01:03:59,082 --> 01:03:59,482
Yeah.

996
01:03:59,562 --> 01:04:00,472
Take that chat GPT.

997
01:04:00,892 --> 01:04:01,422
Like, uh,

998
01:04:01,527 --> 01:04:09,247
Yeah, but what is the idea, you heard in Madeira, I said about this, how

999
01:04:09,247 --> 01:04:13,627
do these thoughts, this is what I was trying to explain in Madeira, I don't

1000
01:04:13,627 --> 01:04:18,727
know how well I did or not I did, but the, but the idea Let's, let's

1001
01:04:18,727 --> 01:04:20,607
use Faraday, right, as an example.

1002
01:04:20,617 --> 01:04:27,297
Most people don't even know who he is, um, but electromagnetism was, uh, was in his

1003
01:04:27,297 --> 01:04:31,447
mind that, that was always all around us.

1004
01:04:32,587 --> 01:04:37,517
It was all, it was always all around us and it was discovered in, uh, in his mind

1005
01:04:38,057 --> 01:04:43,457
that then he, And then we reside on top of those thoughts where James Maxwell Clarke

1006
01:04:43,467 --> 01:04:49,717
created the math to be able to describe what he just saw in his mind, that then

1007
01:04:50,787 --> 01:04:54,727
we make use of all lighting, electricity, electric communications, everything.

1008
01:04:55,137 --> 01:04:57,847
And so we, most people don't even know who he is.

1009
01:04:59,097 --> 01:05:05,217
Let alone that idea that was always there at all times for somebody to find,

1010
01:05:07,227 --> 01:05:11,597
that couldn't have been found unless, unless somebody had an idea for a printing

1011
01:05:11,597 --> 01:05:16,837
press that unlocked his mind to be able to be able to be able to contribute it.

1012
01:05:17,307 --> 01:05:21,157
And, and now if you just extend, extend that and all of those ideas

1013
01:05:21,157 --> 01:05:24,427
from the printing press were the age of enlightenment and a lot of things

1014
01:05:24,427 --> 01:05:27,587
we take for granted without even knowing those people that helped us.

1015
01:05:27,932 --> 01:05:32,172
Live in the world that we, uh, all the failures, all the successes, all of those

1016
01:05:32,172 --> 01:05:36,382
people, we sometimes look at the heroes, just like we look at the hero of Satoshi,

1017
01:05:36,932 --> 01:05:42,432
and we have a, but we don't look at all of the tries on net from all the cypherpunks.

1018
01:05:44,872 --> 01:05:49,542
Had to fail to be able to get to the discovery that, uh,

1019
01:05:49,572 --> 01:05:51,672
that Satoshi had to, had to be.

1020
01:05:51,942 --> 01:05:56,812
And so all of those people are also instructive in, in creating the

1021
01:05:56,812 --> 01:05:59,162
world that we, uh, we reside on.

1022
01:05:59,172 --> 01:06:01,352
All of us, we are completely connected.

1023
01:06:01,742 --> 01:06:06,402
Now connect 8 billion more minds on a system of cooperation.

1024
01:06:06,952 --> 01:06:10,442
And it's so unbelievably profound what that means.

1025
01:06:11,022 --> 01:06:15,992
Cause we're going to find, we're going to find tens of thousands of Einsteins.

1026
01:06:17,932 --> 01:06:25,732
That are, that are right now working in a, uh, uh, a short life, working in the

1027
01:06:25,732 --> 01:06:32,182
Democratic Republic of Congo to dig up, uh, to, uh, to, uh, to dig up cobalt.

1028
01:06:32,717 --> 01:06:36,337
Um, because they're slaves to our system and we're going to unlock them

1029
01:06:36,337 --> 01:06:42,977
in service of us, in service of them, in service of us, and the amount of, and

1030
01:06:43,427 --> 01:06:47,697
they don't know they can unlock right now because Bitcoin is an open protocol.

1031
01:06:48,257 --> 01:06:51,037
They don't know, they don't need to wait for the U.

1032
01:06:51,037 --> 01:06:51,167
S.

1033
01:06:51,167 --> 01:06:52,287
government to say yes.

1034
01:06:52,622 --> 01:06:53,852
They could do it, just do it right now.

1035
01:06:54,962 --> 01:06:57,272
They don't need, they don't need it to wait for anybody.

1036
01:06:57,272 --> 01:06:59,042
They could just move a little bit of their time.

1037
01:06:59,422 --> 01:07:02,022
So what, how do, how does that happen?

1038
01:07:02,022 --> 01:07:04,302
How does that happen throughout society?

1039
01:07:04,302 --> 01:07:10,132
How does, how does your and my relationship spur some

1040
01:07:10,132 --> 01:07:11,032
of these conversations?

1041
01:07:12,142 --> 01:07:15,532
That then build, Oh, what about that way?

1042
01:07:15,532 --> 01:07:16,182
What about that way?

1043
01:07:16,182 --> 01:07:20,442
And we both see, we both come away from a, from any, every talk, maybe

1044
01:07:20,442 --> 01:07:23,922
a little bit more enlightened, but hey, I can't do that.

1045
01:07:24,642 --> 01:07:28,572
It's, we both come away from this discussion and as many people that,

1046
01:07:28,652 --> 01:07:30,962
uh, uh, That will listen to that.

1047
01:07:31,702 --> 01:07:37,682
This we are the ai, we're the, we're the supercomputer.

1048
01:07:39,237 --> 01:07:43,327
I prefer the Terry Pratchett quote here, uh, real stupidity, uh, beats

1049
01:07:43,377 --> 01:07:47,057
artificial intelligence every time, like, and we're the real stupidity,

1050
01:07:47,057 --> 01:07:49,737
it's just that there are eight billions of us, uh, eight billion

1051
01:07:49,737 --> 01:07:58,031
of us, uh, no, it's, uh, it's super, super beautiful, uh, I mean, yeah, um.

1052
01:07:58,412 --> 01:08:03,382
It's good to be reminded, um, and to go back down into the rabbit hole

1053
01:08:03,402 --> 01:08:08,442
and, and just really explore how, how, how beautiful this thought is.

1054
01:08:08,952 --> 01:08:10,052
Uh, so what do you think of this?

1055
01:08:10,052 --> 01:08:14,072
I don't know if I told you this one before, but, uh, just like

1056
01:08:14,082 --> 01:08:21,507
electromagnetism was always there, even before Faraday, like, uh, So was Bitcoin.

1057
01:08:21,707 --> 01:08:24,827
It's just that the hash power was zero before 2009.

1058
01:08:26,092 --> 01:08:26,242
yeah.

1059
01:08:26,692 --> 01:08:28,972
It, it, or, or to, or take a look at.

1060
01:08:29,212 --> 01:08:30,922
Uh, um, interesting.

1061
01:08:30,922 --> 01:08:33,762
That's a interesting, uh, look, the, um.

1062
01:08:35,502 --> 01:08:40,902
But, or, or look at it this way, what have we always done in, uh, in humanity

1063
01:08:40,932 --> 01:08:44,902
to be able to, we overcome scarcity and provide, produce an abundance.

1064
01:08:45,192 --> 01:08:51,982
Anything that's ever been scarce, our mind solves that, uh, solves that problem.

1065
01:08:52,002 --> 01:08:56,652
It's all from our mind that we, and, and that's created because it creates margin,

1066
01:08:56,942 --> 01:09:01,192
right, or creates an opportunity to be able to be solved, and we solve problems.

1067
01:09:01,272 --> 01:09:02,092
We constantly do.

1068
01:09:02,102 --> 01:09:03,572
It's a never, never ending.

1069
01:09:04,202 --> 01:09:05,582
So, um.

1070
01:09:06,312 --> 01:09:10,832
If you think about powering the zoom call and powering the computer that runs your

1071
01:09:10,832 --> 01:09:15,442
computer here right now, it is a silicon chip that's made of a grain of sand.

1072
01:09:16,282 --> 01:09:17,122
We took sand.

1073
01:09:17,842 --> 01:09:22,312
Made, made and, and re-engineered it to make, uh, uh, ma uh, make the

1074
01:09:22,312 --> 01:09:24,262
base, uh, base o uh, of computers.

1075
01:09:24,592 --> 01:09:29,872
You think about what we're capable of, um, together to be able to create all

1076
01:09:29,872 --> 01:09:33,472
of the efficiency and all of the things that we, we, we create in our lives.

1077
01:09:33,682 --> 01:09:36,562
But the, but what's happening to today and what's happening and

1078
01:09:36,562 --> 01:09:38,302
happening for a long time is.

1079
01:09:38,937 --> 01:09:43,537
We steal that efficiency and we, we aggregate it up in only very few people

1080
01:09:43,757 --> 01:09:48,337
instead of letting it flow to the, uh, uh, to all people in the form of,

1081
01:09:48,437 --> 01:09:53,257
uh, this connection, but from Bitcoin, it is flowing to all people and all

1082
01:09:53,257 --> 01:09:58,097
of these things that we will, so now connect that into Bitcoin and the

1083
01:09:58,107 --> 01:10:03,877
timing in Bitcoin, if you, if you zoom and take yourself out of the mix and

1084
01:10:03,877 --> 01:10:06,107
you said it was another planet, Right?

1085
01:10:06,187 --> 01:10:10,667
And you had a evolution of history and you, and, and, uh, biological,

1086
01:10:11,137 --> 01:10:16,957
uh, evolving and, and then at some point they would have to trade with

1087
01:10:16,957 --> 01:10:20,767
something and they'd probably eventually use the hardest material there.

1088
01:10:22,057 --> 01:10:24,897
And then they would go through this exact same thing and they would

1089
01:10:24,897 --> 01:10:31,277
create, um, um, this, this fight because if you could extract more

1090
01:10:31,277 --> 01:10:35,897
from somebody else, you would, um, and that would keep going as technology,

1091
01:10:36,047 --> 01:10:37,807
it might move further and further.

1092
01:10:38,972 --> 01:10:45,962
Um, and it would reach a breaking point where your weapons and the fight

1093
01:10:46,422 --> 01:10:48,292
would either destroy the civilization

1094
01:10:50,332 --> 01:10:54,912
completely, because the weapons would be so, so powerful, or you

1095
01:10:54,912 --> 01:10:59,732
could step off of an extractive model to a cooperative one, and it would

1096
01:10:59,772 --> 01:11:03,192
look the same if you just thought, you know, How would things emerge?

1097
01:11:03,202 --> 01:11:08,682
It would look the same anywhere, because that's what, um, and what, what

1098
01:11:08,692 --> 01:11:12,362
we're doing right now are Satoshi's gift, and, and many of the cypherpunks

1099
01:11:12,392 --> 01:11:17,022
before Satoshi that understood what the, uh, what, what this looks like.

1100
01:11:17,402 --> 01:11:17,772
Is it?

1101
01:11:18,312 --> 01:11:22,492
It's almost the thing that had to come at the time that it had to come

1102
01:11:23,722 --> 01:11:27,982
because of the same, because of the same scarcity and the same, the same

1103
01:11:27,992 --> 01:11:34,652
what would happen to society under the outhold model created, created the

1104
01:11:34,652 --> 01:11:37,902
need for the, for the new transition.

1105
01:11:39,867 --> 01:11:43,437
It's almost a solution to the Fermi Paradox.

1106
01:11:43,487 --> 01:11:43,757
Like,

1107
01:11:43,847 --> 01:11:44,947
That's the way it is.

1108
01:11:45,157 --> 01:11:47,047
It is a solution to the Fermi paradox.

1109
01:11:47,047 --> 01:11:50,917
If you think about right now, what the world through the monetary lens

1110
01:11:50,917 --> 01:11:57,467
has always been that it's, it's, you extract your, eventually, eventually

1111
01:11:57,467 --> 01:12:01,727
the extractions become so great to let's use people moving to, to the U.

1112
01:12:01,727 --> 01:12:01,937
S.

1113
01:12:01,967 --> 01:12:02,267
and the U.

1114
01:12:02,267 --> 01:12:02,417
S.

1115
01:12:02,417 --> 01:12:06,087
fight for independence was everybody moving to a free market.

1116
01:12:06,127 --> 01:12:10,077
Free market was more productive, became, uh, became the most successful.

1117
01:12:10,447 --> 01:12:11,707
And those people left.

1118
01:12:11,997 --> 01:12:16,617
The closed markets, right, the control markets, they fought for the

1119
01:12:16,617 --> 01:12:20,567
independence, it was more productive, and then it got captured by the banking,

1120
01:12:20,817 --> 01:12:26,647
uh, banking system that then creates opportunity, uh, for another nation

1121
01:12:26,647 --> 01:12:30,692
to be more productive and, and in this system that we're currently trapped in.

1122
01:12:31,012 --> 01:12:37,682
We, or we always have been trapped in, how we reset is we go to war and we

1123
01:12:37,682 --> 01:12:42,762
convince, we easily convince, first we convince inside our country that it's

1124
01:12:42,772 --> 01:12:46,162
those people against, like you're the smart one, it's those other people.

1125
01:12:47,072 --> 01:12:49,612
When that happens, then we consolidate power.

1126
01:12:49,662 --> 01:12:54,632
Some, we give power to some dictator or, or somebody who, who removes our

1127
01:12:54,632 --> 01:12:58,502
individual rights and freedoms more in this in, because we believe they can,

1128
01:12:58,532 --> 01:13:00,202
they're the only person that can save us.

1129
01:13:01,857 --> 01:13:05,327
And then, then it can't work because it's a structural problem.

1130
01:13:05,757 --> 01:13:06,497
So what do they do?

1131
01:13:06,507 --> 01:13:13,287
They create an enemy outside the borders and convince you to go fight to kill

1132
01:13:13,287 --> 01:13:18,237
somebody else because it's those other bad people that you're, you're going to do.

1133
01:13:18,367 --> 01:13:22,127
And we, we, and, and then if we win the war.

1134
01:13:23,092 --> 01:13:24,252
We reset the currency.

1135
01:13:25,292 --> 01:13:27,342
Say we promise not to do it ever again.

1136
01:13:27,562 --> 01:13:31,432
We put up institutions to, to solidify that promise because

1137
01:13:31,432 --> 01:13:33,382
we'll never act like that again.

1138
01:13:33,392 --> 01:13:34,502
We've learned our lesson.

1139
01:13:35,002 --> 01:13:36,102
We do it started again.

1140
01:13:37,382 --> 01:13:41,052
Entire history of us through that lens is exactly the same

1141
01:13:41,052 --> 01:13:44,262
thing that repeats through time based on an extractive system.

1142
01:13:44,877 --> 01:13:46,907
And right now we're at the brink of that same thing.

1143
01:13:46,907 --> 01:13:50,657
And most people, most people are giving the strength to that system,

1144
01:13:50,657 --> 01:13:53,637
whether it's Ukraine, whether it's, uh, whether it's Palestine,

1145
01:13:53,637 --> 01:13:59,927
whether it's, uh, and, and they're feeding it with all of their energy.

1146
01:14:00,517 --> 01:14:05,107
And they literally, I was with a YPL friend last, last night, and he literally

1147
01:14:05,107 --> 01:14:07,627
said, Um, those people are good.

1148
01:14:07,627 --> 01:14:08,537
Those people are bad.

1149
01:14:08,897 --> 01:14:12,947
I said, Oh my God, how do you define good bad?

1150
01:14:14,347 --> 01:14:18,857
It's like defining when cold turns into hot.

1151
01:14:20,047 --> 01:14:21,297
What do you mean by that?

1152
01:14:21,367 --> 01:14:21,597
Right?

1153
01:14:21,627 --> 01:14:26,353
Because you're listening inside the system and you're making

1154
01:14:26,353 --> 01:14:29,088
it stronger with that bias.

1155
01:14:29,088 --> 01:14:37,032
Because if If good is, is sitting inside a system and preaching good

1156
01:14:37,042 --> 01:14:40,332
because you're stealing money from that system and somebody else has

1157
01:14:40,332 --> 01:14:43,512
to lose, now he doesn't know this.

1158
01:14:43,513 --> 01:14:44,742
These

1159
01:14:47,322 --> 01:14:50,692
things, that's why they repeat in time because we're so easily fooled.

1160
01:14:51,542 --> 01:14:53,562
We're so easily fooled from this.

1161
01:14:53,562 --> 01:14:57,912
And this discovery of Bitcoin, I was just, Gary read Satoshi, and now

1162
01:14:58,062 --> 01:15:03,662
us in Bitcoin is putting a new path forward that society forever is going

1163
01:15:03,672 --> 01:15:05,302
to get out of this extractive model.

1164
01:15:06,997 --> 01:15:11,727
The question is, can we make it before we blow ourselves up?

1165
01:15:12,377 --> 01:15:13,397
that's the big question.

1166
01:15:13,727 --> 01:15:20,167
Like, we explore a similar thing in the book, but you have to zoom out

1167
01:15:20,177 --> 01:15:22,527
a bit and go into biology as well.

1168
01:15:22,807 --> 01:15:28,542
If you take, like, the evolutionary process from The smallest amoeba and

1169
01:15:28,572 --> 01:15:38,642
up to Janet Yellen, uh, we, we, we, um, for any other being that exists now,

1170
01:15:39,182 --> 01:15:48,022
um, a fruit fly, uh, then the, the, uh, uh, if you look at the, uh, the, um,

1171
01:15:48,542 --> 01:15:52,982
Prisoner's Dilemma, um, game theoretical scenario, so when you have two people

1172
01:15:53,372 --> 01:15:59,572
that have the choice either to rat out on the other prisoner or, or to, uh, um,

1173
01:16:00,482 --> 01:16:05,462
collaborate and, um, well, they can, what, what are the things, help me here, Luke,

1174
01:16:05,522 --> 01:16:11,662
like, they can either, uh, collaborate or, or just, uh, rat on one another.

1175
01:16:11,782 --> 01:16:12,262
Defect

1176
01:16:12,327 --> 01:16:13,437
Defect is the word.

1177
01:16:13,437 --> 01:16:13,707
Yeah.

1178
01:16:14,127 --> 01:16:14,757
Or defect.

1179
01:16:14,907 --> 01:16:19,467
Uh, and it turns out that if you, if you play this game once, then what you should

1180
01:16:19,467 --> 01:16:23,097
do is, uh, um, lie to the other guy.

1181
01:16:23,397 --> 01:16:24,147
You should cheat.

1182
01:16:24,727 --> 01:16:28,747
But if you play it over and over again, the, the best, best mathematical

1183
01:16:28,747 --> 01:16:31,597
way to do that, to optimize the game when you know that you're playing

1184
01:16:31,597 --> 01:16:33,837
the game forever is to cooperate.

1185
01:16:34,277 --> 01:16:37,607
And if the other player, uh, does something bad, aggresses.

1186
01:16:38,817 --> 01:16:40,697
This is a metaphor for aggression.

1187
01:16:41,167 --> 01:16:44,167
Uh, then you should retaliate appropriately, like eye for an

1188
01:16:44,167 --> 01:16:47,897
eye, and then go back to trusting the other guy again when, when the

1189
01:16:47,897 --> 01:16:49,957
punishment has been carried out.

1190
01:16:50,847 --> 01:16:53,557
And so this happens in nature all the time.

1191
01:16:53,567 --> 01:16:57,247
And this is why free markets win, because the optimal strategy for all

1192
01:16:57,257 --> 01:17:00,287
beings is to cooperate and not to fight.

1193
01:17:01,157 --> 01:17:03,317
And it depends on.

1194
01:17:04,127 --> 01:17:09,017
The scale and all sorts of things and organisms within organisms.

1195
01:17:09,017 --> 01:17:13,287
And, uh, there's always this balance in nature between fang and claw, but

1196
01:17:13,317 --> 01:17:18,757
catalactics is just as much a thing in the, in the animal kingdom as well.

1197
01:17:18,907 --> 01:17:21,877
From this perspective, it's collaboration or.

1198
01:17:22,277 --> 01:17:23,247
Fighting one another.

1199
01:17:23,647 --> 01:17:27,467
It's just that with Bitcoin, and I think these cycles of war and

1200
01:17:27,467 --> 01:17:29,737
totalitarianism or not, it's the same.

1201
01:17:29,757 --> 01:17:32,037
It's that playing out in humanity.

1202
01:17:32,047 --> 01:17:35,987
So it's, it's a mixture of collaboration and fang and claw.

1203
01:17:36,017 --> 01:17:39,377
We still have a handicapped monetary system.

1204
01:17:39,677 --> 01:17:42,987
It's still, it still works to a certain extent.

1205
01:17:43,047 --> 01:17:46,937
The thing that's happening though, in the long run is that free market,

1206
01:17:46,997 --> 01:17:52,562
the free market forces are more powerful than, than the, um, Then

1207
01:17:52,562 --> 01:17:56,032
the pure, uh, uh, aggressive forces.

1208
01:17:56,112 --> 01:17:56,522
Yeah.

1209
01:17:57,232 --> 01:18:01,602
So, so in a way this was inevitable, like it's just the free market winning,

1210
01:18:02,222 --> 01:18:07,502
uh, and the computer revolution and everything, uh, well from Gutenberg and

1211
01:18:07,502 --> 01:18:11,832
the printing press and, and so on, it's just has accelerated the process so much.

1212
01:18:11,832 --> 01:18:15,642
So we're living in this exponential, the hockey stick is already here.

1213
01:18:16,262 --> 01:18:18,862
And with Bitcoin, the hockey stick is like insane.

1214
01:18:20,100 --> 01:18:26,170
we're moving the Nash equilibrium from a, I have more weapons than you,

1215
01:18:26,220 --> 01:18:27,620
that you have to compete with me.

1216
01:18:28,335 --> 01:18:33,065
Um, or you have to cooperate with me, so I cheat, but you have to, you have to,

1217
01:18:33,365 --> 01:18:39,545
and we're moving the Nash equilibrium to, to a model of cooperation, and so I, I, I

1218
01:18:39,715 --> 01:18:46,755
explored that in my book as well, and it's just, it's a really crazy, uh, crazy thing

1219
01:18:46,755 --> 01:18:50,255
in game theory, this, this move, Right?

1220
01:18:50,365 --> 01:18:52,075
That we've never been able to move before.

1221
01:18:52,997 --> 01:18:59,807
No, and it's one of my most popular quotes from the second book, like when,

1222
01:19:00,247 --> 01:19:03,447
when you cannot know how much another person owns and you cannot take it by

1223
01:19:03,447 --> 01:19:08,527
force, the, the only way to extract value from that other being is to, is to

1224
01:19:08,567 --> 01:19:11,007
collaborate rather than to, to attack.

1225
01:19:11,602 --> 01:19:16,962
And, uh, and it changes everything, and I just don't think people find, oh,

1226
01:19:17,212 --> 01:19:19,612
here's another ADD brain thought, uh,

1227
01:19:20,458 --> 01:19:22,808
I love your ADD brain thought.

1228
01:19:23,818 --> 01:19:31,188
thank you, so does Luke, uh, think, anyway, um, the, um, The question is,

1229
01:19:32,188 --> 01:19:36,798
is this also true for bitcoin mining or do Bitcoin miners actually have

1230
01:19:36,798 --> 01:19:38,418
an incentive to attack one another?

1231
01:19:38,998 --> 01:19:43,908
Because attacking the other miner and also blaming the third miner

1232
01:19:43,908 --> 01:19:47,628
for the attack, uh, could give you a competitive advantage in mining.

1233
01:19:48,198 --> 01:19:48,468
So

1234
01:19:48,468 --> 01:19:51,408
are are the in, are the incentive structures in mining?

1235
01:19:51,858 --> 01:19:55,838
think it's such short term, like it's just the biggest incentive structure

1236
01:19:55,838 --> 01:19:58,088
in my, having a monopoly in mining.

1237
01:19:58,923 --> 01:20:04,933
Is actually typically a negative for your, uh, uh, for your company, because, because

1238
01:20:05,373 --> 01:20:09,833
the cost of the capital reproduction, trying to find energy cheaper in that size

1239
01:20:09,833 --> 01:20:17,263
of a size of, uh, system is, uh, is always going to incent like the incentivist,

1240
01:20:17,343 --> 01:20:21,323
where, where a monopoly competes today and the incentivist for the monopoly,

1241
01:20:21,353 --> 01:20:22,663
because they can block competition.

1242
01:20:23,598 --> 01:20:28,398
The incentive in Bitcoin mining is to the new person because they buy the

1243
01:20:28,398 --> 01:20:32,818
new equipment and they, they, they, uh, they find energy and at lower,

1244
01:20:32,938 --> 01:20:35,128
lower costs and a more, more diverse.

1245
01:20:35,638 --> 01:20:38,988
And they, and because the energy is cheaper and they have more newer

1246
01:20:39,058 --> 01:20:41,448
mining equipment, they make more money.

1247
01:20:43,408 --> 01:20:46,668
So, and that's, you want a free market force.

1248
01:20:46,668 --> 01:20:48,658
That's why mining is such a hard business.

1249
01:20:49,243 --> 01:20:52,403
Because, because you have to be counterintuitive, you have to be

1250
01:20:52,403 --> 01:20:56,453
countercyclical, you have to sell when everybody else is buying, and

1251
01:20:56,453 --> 01:20:59,673
then you have to buy when everybody else is selling, and you have to

1252
01:20:59,673 --> 01:21:01,763
constantly chase cheaper energy.

1253
01:21:02,723 --> 01:21:03,223
Constantly.

1254
01:21:03,503 --> 01:21:10,478
I use an example, the, the This is a story for some of the people who have

1255
01:21:10,478 --> 01:21:13,478
heard this before, but it's probably a good one for people who don't

1256
01:21:13,508 --> 01:21:14,998
know what mining would look like.

1257
01:21:16,128 --> 01:21:19,698
Just, I use the example, you have a bakery.

1258
01:21:20,598 --> 01:21:25,488
I walk into your bakery and I say, can I buy all the stuff you

1259
01:21:25,488 --> 01:21:26,678
throw out at the end of the day?

1260
01:21:27,308 --> 01:21:28,468
but I just want a discount.

1261
01:21:29,568 --> 01:21:32,458
The next day, you produce too much times as much bread,

1262
01:21:32,878 --> 01:21:34,128
and I come in, I buy it all.

1263
01:21:34,138 --> 01:21:36,578
The next day, four times you're hoping I show up, I buy it all.

1264
01:21:37,278 --> 01:21:39,998
The next day, you, you say, well, this is a good gig.

1265
01:21:40,018 --> 01:21:41,338
I'm going to buy more ovens.

1266
01:21:41,368 --> 01:21:42,348
I'm going to hire more people.

1267
01:21:42,348 --> 01:21:44,518
I'm going to produce 10, 000 times more bread.

1268
01:21:45,193 --> 01:21:46,133
I come in, I buy it all.

1269
01:21:47,303 --> 01:21:52,573
Um, by having a buyer, an always on buyer, I've financed your, the, the

1270
01:21:52,583 --> 01:21:55,033
building of you building abundant bread.

1271
01:21:55,883 --> 01:21:56,933
I've created abundance.

1272
01:21:57,803 --> 01:22:02,433
Now insert energy for bread, and, uh, and that's all a Bitcoin miner is.

1273
01:22:02,693 --> 01:22:06,863
And it's competing against cons, a whole bunch of people wanting to make

1274
01:22:07,003 --> 01:22:09,253
abundant bread all over the world.

1275
01:22:09,578 --> 01:22:11,598
And, and chasing abundant energy.

1276
01:22:11,718 --> 01:22:14,698
It's always, it's always been abundant on our, on our planet.

1277
01:22:15,058 --> 01:22:18,178
It's a, uh, it's a way of how do we harness it?

1278
01:22:18,918 --> 01:22:21,058
How do we pay for it to become abundant?

1279
01:22:21,348 --> 01:22:26,288
And you've just inverted the entire paradigm of, of capital to,

1280
01:22:26,588 --> 01:22:28,068
to create abundance and energy.

1281
01:22:28,368 --> 01:22:32,688
It's such a simple concept, but it's, but owning a, owning a Bitcoin miner,

1282
01:22:32,718 --> 01:22:35,348
it means you're competing in the free market against all of those other

1283
01:22:35,348 --> 01:22:37,578
people trying to create abundant energy.

1284
01:22:38,938 --> 01:22:39,798
And they can be anywhere.

1285
01:22:41,021 --> 01:22:45,471
Yeah, we just attended a mining conference in Slovenia where we heard

1286
01:22:45,471 --> 01:22:50,031
some interesting ideas about mining, and one of them was that, like, uh, the

1287
01:22:50,031 --> 01:22:54,801
miners today, a lot of the big mining pools and everything, they are leveraging

1288
01:22:54,811 --> 01:22:59,281
the fiat system, so they have access to cheap loans, artificially cheap loans,

1289
01:22:59,671 --> 01:23:04,081
and that's why they can mine so much, and that allows them to be fiat minded.

1290
01:23:04,406 --> 01:23:10,346
Uh, right now and sell the bitcoins fast, uh, but over time, uh, as, uh,

1291
01:23:10,356 --> 01:23:14,776
fees go down, uh, as, um, rewards go down and everything, and the fee

1292
01:23:14,776 --> 01:23:19,876
market might not keep up and all of this, then, uh, mining necessarily

1293
01:23:19,886 --> 01:23:25,131
has to be, uh, Like the energy used in mining cannot only be used for mining.

1294
01:23:25,141 --> 01:23:28,741
You will have to like use the excess heat for heating a

1295
01:23:28,741 --> 01:23:31,811
greenhouse or something else on top.

1296
01:23:31,966 --> 01:23:34,626
drying coffee beans, drying chocolate, has to be,

1297
01:23:35,181 --> 01:23:35,711
Exactly.

1298
01:23:35,911 --> 01:23:41,591
Which in turn means that the miners who value the Satoshi higher are the winners.

1299
01:23:41,661 --> 01:23:44,951
Like the miners who value the fiat higher.

1300
01:23:45,346 --> 01:23:49,146
They, they will be out competed by miners who can actually hold on

1301
01:23:49,146 --> 01:23:52,736
to the Satoshi and, and, and see the actual value of this, of the

1302
01:23:52,736 --> 01:23:54,836
KYC free Satoshi they just got.

1303
01:23:55,706 --> 01:24:01,596
you have a global swarm, anybody, globally, that can, when we went to

1304
01:24:01,596 --> 01:24:06,026
Malawi, you have this, but I'll finish the other thought first, you have

1305
01:24:06,026 --> 01:24:11,516
a global swarm, if you use Saylor's version, cyber hornets, that are,

1306
01:24:11,616 --> 01:24:16,566
that are descending on energy, to make more money, and nobody can stop them.

1307
01:24:17,936 --> 01:24:20,256
That's what's backing this.

1308
01:24:21,246 --> 01:24:27,226
And the more decentralized you are, the more the cheaper energy

1309
01:24:27,226 --> 01:24:30,556
you are, the faster you can do this, the more money you make.

1310
01:24:30,586 --> 01:24:33,006
And it just keeps on doing that forever.

1311
01:24:33,666 --> 01:24:39,476
So we were in Malawi last December and there's these projects in Malawi,

1312
01:24:39,506 --> 01:24:42,416
like just these brutal projects.

1313
01:24:42,761 --> 01:24:50,001
Government projects, IMF type of projects, they have to, they have to drive solar in

1314
01:24:50,001 --> 01:24:54,151
their economy, solar for charging of cars.

1315
01:24:54,971 --> 01:24:58,881
There isn't an electric car anywhere to be seen in Malawi.

1316
01:24:59,701 --> 01:25:02,701
They don't have the money for an electric car, yet you have these electric

1317
01:25:04,071 --> 01:25:06,591
solar systems to charge electric cars.

1318
01:25:07,116 --> 01:25:11,786
That is just a, just a money loot, like it's just such a useless use of

1319
01:25:11,786 --> 01:25:15,706
capital because it funded somebody else to be able to say, let's, let's

1320
01:25:15,726 --> 01:25:17,486
impose what we want for Malawi.

1321
01:25:18,116 --> 01:25:19,026
It's so useless.

1322
01:25:19,026 --> 01:25:20,726
But so what do you think happens there?

1323
01:25:20,736 --> 01:25:24,716
A whole bunch of people in Malawi are plugging in their miners to this

1324
01:25:24,716 --> 01:25:28,296
free electric power, to this free source of power and distributing.

1325
01:25:28,626 --> 01:25:28,996
Why?

1326
01:25:29,196 --> 01:25:30,466
Because there's money to be made there.

1327
01:25:30,516 --> 01:25:31,456
The bakery example.

1328
01:25:31,716 --> 01:25:36,286
So it's just, this is, um, this can't be stopped.

1329
01:25:36,651 --> 01:25:40,771
And it's inverting the, it is completely inverting the power structure of what,

1330
01:25:40,861 --> 01:25:44,051
what, what, uh, What energy looked like.

1331
01:25:44,993 --> 01:25:49,143
Yeah, I, I met the guy in, um, Buenos Aires, the, the Malawi guy,

1332
01:25:49,203 --> 01:25:51,493
what's his name, uh, was it Erik?

1333
01:25:51,583 --> 01:25:53,313
Um, name escapes me.

1334
01:25:54,003 --> 01:25:55,983
We actually both met him on Madeira.

1335
01:25:56,053 --> 01:25:59,813
we both met him on Madeira too, do you remember his name, look, Erik,

1336
01:25:59,873 --> 01:26:01,693
Erik, yeah, Erik with a K, I believe.

1337
01:26:02,344 --> 01:26:02,964
Yeah, it's cool.

1338
01:26:03,014 --> 01:26:07,474
So you're seeing, you're seeing these things pop up in the free market, right?

1339
01:26:07,504 --> 01:26:08,704
That is also secure.

1340
01:26:09,164 --> 01:26:12,064
That's also bounding this protocol to energy.

1341
01:26:12,064 --> 01:26:13,414
I

1342
01:26:14,059 --> 01:26:15,919
Yeah, it's super beautiful.

1343
01:27:46,839 --> 01:27:49,679
Jeff, we've been going for one and a half hours.

1344
01:27:49,679 --> 01:27:51,789
I want to let Luke in because, uh, because

1345
01:27:54,259 --> 01:27:54,869
I haven't yet.

1346
01:27:55,389 --> 01:27:57,379
So, so let's see what he has for you.

1347
01:27:58,125 --> 01:27:59,105
Jeff, oh my goodness.

1348
01:27:59,105 --> 01:28:05,675
I can't think of a conversation that's been more optimistic ever on this show.

1349
01:28:05,715 --> 01:28:06,705
This has been amazing.

1350
01:28:07,475 --> 01:28:12,875
I really have liked your lucid explanations of these things that

1351
01:28:12,875 --> 01:28:17,935
are so high up there in the clouds, I think, for most of these things.

1352
01:28:17,935 --> 01:28:22,809
I really feel a sense of optimism that we are, in fact, going in the right

1353
01:28:22,809 --> 01:28:24,332
direction, which is just awesome.

1354
01:28:24,332 --> 01:28:26,465
Just a general comment on the show.

1355
01:28:27,155 --> 01:28:28,275
Conversation so far.

1356
01:28:28,850 --> 01:28:29,580
appreciate that.

1357
01:28:30,325 --> 01:28:30,905
Yeah.

1358
01:28:31,045 --> 01:28:34,725
But, uh, uh, I think maybe just my, my only question is to bring this

1359
01:28:34,735 --> 01:28:36,605
in a little more, more practical.

1360
01:28:36,865 --> 01:28:40,505
What are you thinking about in the coming year, a couple of years,

1361
01:28:40,505 --> 01:28:45,295
because everyone is still, you know, uh, concerned about the, the now, like

1362
01:28:45,295 --> 01:28:50,035
we were sort of talking about, what do you see the effects of, um, this?

1363
01:28:50,330 --> 01:28:51,780
Purchasing power go up.

1364
01:28:52,230 --> 01:28:59,210
And, um, maybe the part two to this, if we get there is, is the, what challenges are

1365
01:28:59,210 --> 01:29:03,330
you foreseeing in the, in the immediate future that we'll need to overcome?

1366
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:08,080
Yeah, so I, I just think this isn't not like, depending on what system you're

1367
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:09,780
measuring from, it's either a challenge.

1368
01:29:09,810 --> 01:29:11,540
It's, it's not a challenge at all.

1369
01:29:11,700 --> 01:29:13,390
It's a crazy opportunity or.

1370
01:29:13,745 --> 01:29:17,495
Or from the other system, it's a really big challenge, right?

1371
01:29:17,505 --> 01:29:21,345
And, and, and every single person on the planet right now has a choice of

1372
01:29:21,345 --> 01:29:23,185
which one they want to decide, right?

1373
01:29:23,195 --> 01:29:26,725
So, so it's a, it's a personal choice that people can measure

1374
01:29:26,725 --> 01:29:27,835
whatever system they want.

1375
01:29:27,885 --> 01:29:28,965
They don't, might not know it.

1376
01:29:29,630 --> 01:29:33,530
And that personal choice that they don't know will lead them to still divide and

1377
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:35,320
fight and everything else within that.

1378
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:38,080
So those are some of the greatest challenges because most people don't

1379
01:29:38,090 --> 01:29:42,370
know this yet, but podcasts like yours are touching more people and then

1380
01:29:42,370 --> 01:29:44,920
those people will touch more people and then those people will touch more

1381
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,745
people like All great change happens.

1382
01:29:48,445 --> 01:29:55,465
Um, it just permeates across society because people choose the better way.

1383
01:29:55,815 --> 01:29:55,995
Right?

1384
01:29:56,005 --> 01:29:56,375
That's all.

1385
01:29:56,575 --> 01:30:01,805
So, but that's bound to be messy and chaotic because we've never

1386
01:30:01,805 --> 01:30:03,005
lived in a system like this.

1387
01:30:03,005 --> 01:30:05,325
And it's a misunderstanding of what this means.

1388
01:30:05,665 --> 01:30:07,685
So, um, but you can be immune.

1389
01:30:07,795 --> 01:30:09,525
You can be mostly immune from that.

1390
01:30:10,005 --> 01:30:14,065
If you've just moved your time and energy into the new space and you, you

1391
01:30:14,085 --> 01:30:18,455
know, this Luke from going to a bunch of Bitcoin conferences and as people get

1392
01:30:18,455 --> 01:30:26,255
deeper into this, the connection to those people also is so deep and, and which

1393
01:30:26,255 --> 01:30:30,855
would make, which would make natural sense because to understand this at a deeply,

1394
01:30:31,175 --> 01:30:33,075
uh, uh, philosophical point of view.

1395
01:30:33,285 --> 01:30:36,925
spiritual level, like to go down that deep into what this means to

1396
01:30:36,925 --> 01:30:40,535
cooperate, you have to abandon a whole bunch of the things that you

1397
01:30:40,535 --> 01:30:42,265
thought ruled your life before.

1398
01:30:43,065 --> 01:30:47,325
And you know that other people who've gone that deep did the same thing.

1399
01:30:47,725 --> 01:30:50,975
So of course you see the beauty in humanity.

1400
01:30:51,675 --> 01:30:52,765
Of course you see that.

1401
01:30:53,015 --> 01:30:57,565
It's just such a natural extension because you're living in it all the time

1402
01:30:57,565 --> 01:30:59,555
and you're seeing people all the time.

1403
01:31:00,205 --> 01:31:05,295
But that, in some people, and they're, they're so deep in there

1404
01:31:05,365 --> 01:31:07,605
and then the clown world is so crazy,

1405
01:31:10,955 --> 01:31:15,195
they can't, they can't let other people be them and find it in their own time.

1406
01:31:15,195 --> 01:31:19,645
You They yell, because they want to be right.

1407
01:31:19,805 --> 01:31:23,835
They want to be, and that's typically an ego thing, because they need to

1408
01:31:23,845 --> 01:31:25,555
be the one that told them, right?

1409
01:31:25,595 --> 01:31:27,975
I have to be the one.

1410
01:31:28,365 --> 01:31:33,135
If you just, if you just be you in this new system, if you're kind of in this,

1411
01:31:33,575 --> 01:31:38,155
and let somebody else be them, whatever they are, and just, Talk your truth.

1412
01:31:38,595 --> 01:31:44,455
I find it just more, uh, it, and let, it's not orange pilling somebody else.

1413
01:31:44,515 --> 01:31:48,335
Every single person, I don't know somebody who says that person orange pilled me.

1414
01:31:48,335 --> 01:31:50,575
Everybody thinks they did it themselves, right?

1415
01:31:51,555 --> 01:31:55,045
And, and so, but, but we, we talk about orange pilling

1416
01:31:55,065 --> 01:31:56,105
people, orange pilling people.

1417
01:31:56,105 --> 01:31:57,275
That's just an ego thing.

1418
01:31:57,325 --> 01:32:01,455
So it's just the, um, let people find it in their own time.

1419
01:32:01,455 --> 01:32:05,085
You be the best you, um, in, in this, but it's going to be.

1420
01:32:05,620 --> 01:32:06,760
It's going to be chaotic.

1421
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:11,300
It's going to, people are going to mismeasure the system, what's happening.

1422
01:32:11,300 --> 01:32:14,570
But every time on the way down through that chaos, you're going

1423
01:32:14,570 --> 01:32:19,310
to mint more and more people on Bitcoin that are never going back.

1424
01:32:19,900 --> 01:32:20,120
Right?

1425
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:23,510
That are never, that are never, no matter what, they're never going back.

1426
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:29,965
And so, and that is bound to just be Over time, transition across the

1427
01:32:29,985 --> 01:32:32,185
society over a long, long arc of time.

1428
01:32:34,345 --> 01:32:36,025
This is, this is so beautiful.

1429
01:32:36,025 --> 01:32:39,545
I mean, yeah, I, that was not what I was expecting.

1430
01:32:39,615 --> 01:32:44,675
Uh, I'll, yeah, seriously, because, because I'd, I'd, uh, um, listen to

1431
01:32:44,675 --> 01:32:48,305
your, your pod with, uh, with Saifedean about, about Feddy and, and some other

1432
01:32:48,305 --> 01:32:50,775
things you've talked about recently.

1433
01:32:51,175 --> 01:32:56,745
Uh, and, and, uh, I was somewhat expecting a little bit about that

1434
01:32:57,055 --> 01:33:04,235
maybe we've got some immediate term challenges just in the perspective

1435
01:33:04,235 --> 01:33:10,715
of that there are immediate threats to Bitcoin that might be executed on.

1436
01:33:11,025 --> 01:33:12,925
no, I'm with, uh, I'm with Knut here.

1437
01:33:12,965 --> 01:33:17,525
There, um, it will feel like that to some people that are doing this and a

1438
01:33:17,525 --> 01:33:20,365
whole bunch of people, but you can even see some of the attacks and some of

1439
01:33:20,365 --> 01:33:22,225
the, you can see inside the community.

1440
01:33:23,185 --> 01:33:26,645
People are aware of this and they're fighting and, and, and

1441
01:33:26,645 --> 01:33:27,905
it's creating, it's creating.

1442
01:33:28,245 --> 01:33:32,725
Different sides of an issue, even within, uh, within Bitcoin and that side

1443
01:33:32,725 --> 01:33:34,515
of that issue is like, I like Saylor.

1444
01:33:34,515 --> 01:33:38,265
Saylor has been really, uh, really great with us, but I also disagree

1445
01:33:38,265 --> 01:33:39,885
with Saylor that this is not a U.

1446
01:33:39,885 --> 01:33:40,045
S.

1447
01:33:40,045 --> 01:33:40,775
based system.

1448
01:33:41,585 --> 01:33:42,385
It can't be.

1449
01:33:42,755 --> 01:33:47,255
It's a global system of cooperation and for, uh, and so it might in the

1450
01:33:47,255 --> 01:33:50,035
meantime look like consolidation.

1451
01:33:50,035 --> 01:33:50,275
The U.

1452
01:33:50,275 --> 01:33:50,415
S.

1453
01:33:50,415 --> 01:33:53,275
might be able to get out of their debt just like Gil Salvador is getting out

1454
01:33:53,275 --> 01:33:54,815
of their debt by collecting Bitcoin.

1455
01:33:54,995 --> 01:33:55,915
That's likely to happen.

1456
01:33:57,655 --> 01:34:01,355
It has to be a medium of exchange in time, and it will be a medium of exchange

1457
01:34:01,355 --> 01:34:06,085
in time, so I have no worry, uh, no worry about that, yet, I can have it,

1458
01:34:06,275 --> 01:34:12,335
I can, I can respect somebody a lot, and like them a lot, and disagree with

1459
01:34:12,345 --> 01:34:16,587
them too, so, well, we don't have to disagree, we don't have to agree on

1460
01:34:16,597 --> 01:34:20,307
everything else, you can, you can, Care about somebody even deeply, and you don't

1461
01:34:20,307 --> 01:34:24,497
have to agree with them on everything else, and so it's not about the, for me,

1462
01:34:24,497 --> 01:34:30,217
it's never about the person, it's about the, the issue or the, the idea, right?

1463
01:34:30,217 --> 01:34:34,857
And this, uh, and, and so I can easily dissociate the, and even if somebody

1464
01:34:34,857 --> 01:34:40,617
attacks me, it's not about their view of what that looks like, it's their

1465
01:34:40,657 --> 01:34:42,387
welcome to that, that, that view.

1466
01:34:42,387 --> 01:34:46,537
It's a, uh, it's more for me about the ideas.

1467
01:34:48,942 --> 01:34:53,092
Yeah, I've had this for a long time.

1468
01:34:53,592 --> 01:34:57,452
The ideas that have helped me the most have come from people that are

1469
01:34:57,712 --> 01:35:00,992
getting attacked from all sides.

1470
01:35:02,212 --> 01:35:04,802
Jordan Peterson through Joe Rogan, etc.

1471
01:35:04,842 --> 01:35:05,602
Lots of J's.

1472
01:35:05,632 --> 01:35:12,322
But it's, yeah, when an idea works and it actually helps people, that's it.

1473
01:35:12,342 --> 01:35:16,852
And even if the messenger is a flawed person, we're all flawed people, right?

1474
01:35:16,872 --> 01:35:17,422
And, uh

1475
01:35:18,147 --> 01:35:20,117
And all genius, right?

1476
01:35:20,217 --> 01:35:21,237
We each have our own genius.

1477
01:35:21,237 --> 01:35:28,477
The world emerges from that genius, those flaws of us competing on ideas.

1478
01:35:28,677 --> 01:35:33,497
Here's an interesting thought on a company that would, um, I won't say the name

1479
01:35:33,497 --> 01:35:35,437
right now, but people might know it.

1480
01:35:35,927 --> 01:35:42,167
We funded a new company that is, is, is, uh, is essentially, uh,

1481
01:35:45,462 --> 01:35:52,722
Building, uh, records into the blockchain, uh, uh, uh, block using, uh, op open sets.

1482
01:35:52,782 --> 01:35:58,242
Um, and, uh, and so what if history couldn't be changed?

1483
01:35:59,422 --> 01:36:01,432
What if you owned your real history?

1484
01:36:02,372 --> 01:36:05,042
And it might not be true, but it's true for you.

1485
01:36:05,132 --> 01:36:06,512
But history couldn't be changed.

1486
01:36:06,512 --> 01:36:07,442
It couldn't be rewritten.

1487
01:36:07,502 --> 01:36:10,502
'cause we've always lived in a world where the winners write the history

1488
01:36:10,502 --> 01:36:15,112
books and then we repeat, repeat, repeat errors throughout time.

1489
01:36:15,747 --> 01:36:16,837
because of the same thing.

1490
01:36:17,787 --> 01:36:19,337
So what would AI look like?

1491
01:36:19,337 --> 01:36:22,847
And what would, uh, uh, what would our history look like if we could

1492
01:36:22,847 --> 01:36:30,417
learn from the real history, the immutable truth, rather than somebody's

1493
01:36:30,417 --> 01:36:34,167
interpretation of what it was through their, their, uh, their lens.

1494
01:36:34,407 --> 01:36:39,727
So as you, as you inscribe this into, uh, into this, and I'm not talking

1495
01:36:39,727 --> 01:36:44,187
inscriptions, but I'm talking, um, the, uh, but as you, as you take this

1496
01:36:44,207 --> 01:36:47,327
protocol and you actually, you do that.

1497
01:36:47,667 --> 01:36:51,057
With historical records and everything else or voting

1498
01:36:51,057 --> 01:36:53,557
records or, or this, it produces

1499
01:36:56,737 --> 01:36:59,997
a learning for all of humanity, just like we're doing right now.

1500
01:36:59,997 --> 01:37:03,357
We make mistakes, we, we update our model.

1501
01:37:03,707 --> 01:37:04,917
We've, uh, we fix them.

1502
01:37:04,987 --> 01:37:06,347
Uh, we have fixed a mistake.

1503
01:37:06,817 --> 01:37:10,797
And so, so if we can do that as a global civilization, that's, we're

1504
01:37:11,007 --> 01:37:13,517
encoding our truth in each thing.

1505
01:37:13,517 --> 01:37:14,527
It doesn't have to be right.

1506
01:37:15,437 --> 01:37:16,327
But we learn from it,

1507
01:37:17,033 --> 01:37:21,213
This is also a, where I strongly disagree.

1508
01:37:22,583 --> 01:37:24,403
For once, I strongly disagree.

1509
01:37:24,783 --> 01:37:30,033
I think every, every other use case that then money for, for Bitcoin is,

1510
01:37:30,113 --> 01:37:36,183
is in a way an abuse case because just like, uh, jewelry makes, uh, gold a

1511
01:37:36,183 --> 01:37:40,813
worse form of money and industrial use cases make gold a slightly worse form

1512
01:37:40,813 --> 01:37:47,908
of money than, uh, Any other use case for Bitcoin than, than Satoshi's that

1513
01:37:47,908 --> 01:37:54,608
we can send through time and space, I, I, I think that's, uh, not optimal.

1514
01:37:54,708 --> 01:38:00,808
Uh, and, and we're, we're valuing like the whole system is, it has

1515
01:38:00,808 --> 01:38:05,778
this internal mechanism that is at the same time robust and it's

1516
01:38:05,778 --> 01:38:08,498
delicate and robust at the same time.

1517
01:38:09,313 --> 01:38:15,063
And the robustness comes from the Satoshi being the, the special thing that is

1518
01:38:15,083 --> 01:38:19,173
completely different from anything else and anything that can tie that Satoshi

1519
01:38:19,173 --> 01:38:26,223
to, to, to something else, uh, just reduces the power of the Satoshi and I

1520
01:38:26,233 --> 01:38:30,493
love Satoshi so, so much that I wouldn't want to dilute them with anything,

1521
01:38:30,513 --> 01:38:36,533
like, regardless of how, how a good record of history it was, I want my time

1522
01:38:36,533 --> 01:38:43,483
chain to be as Un, uh, uh, besmirched by other information as possible.

1523
01:38:43,723 --> 01:38:46,683
That's, that's my stance and that's what I'm going to fight

1524
01:38:46,693 --> 01:38:48,093
for with everything I got.

1525
01:38:48,113 --> 01:38:52,763
Like, I even, I even dislike Chancellor Umbrink of the second bailout for banks.

1526
01:38:52,773 --> 01:38:53,993
I wish that wasn't there.

1527
01:38:54,023 --> 01:38:56,973
I wish this was only about the Satoshis.

1528
01:38:57,543 --> 01:39:02,363
right, but again, in the free, in the free market, people are going to do this.

1529
01:39:02,363 --> 01:39:07,043
And if the value to them is that I actually, I tend to agree with you

1530
01:39:07,043 --> 01:39:11,663
from a standpoint of a whole bunch of the nonsense that's come on, uh, on

1531
01:39:11,663 --> 01:39:15,553
top of this, but, uh, but, um, The,

1532
01:39:17,653 --> 01:39:25,083
if there's a, uh, if, if there's a use case for, uh, uh, for, let's say, my

1533
01:39:25,083 --> 01:39:31,633
will to put a, to put a timestamp on my will, and maybe it's not the entire

1534
01:39:31,633 --> 01:39:35,563
thing, but it's a timestamp saying I did this, uh, I did this will at this time.

1535
01:39:36,123 --> 01:39:40,533
That proved, that proved it was me at that time and that was my last will.

1536
01:39:41,163 --> 01:39:42,033
I might want to do that.

1537
01:39:43,002 --> 01:39:46,002
Yeah, that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

1538
01:39:46,022 --> 01:39:48,022
Open timestamps are kind of awesome.

1539
01:39:48,452 --> 01:39:50,922
Yeah, so, so, so, that's, that's, by the way, that's

1540
01:39:50,922 --> 01:39:51,922
actually what I'm talking about.

1541
01:39:51,952 --> 01:39:53,232
I'm talking open timestamps.

1542
01:39:53,452 --> 01:39:56,002
I'm not talking, I'm not talking, I'm not talking about written inscriptions.

1543
01:39:56,782 --> 01:40:02,252
As usual, this, this, uh, uh, debate is, uh, manufactured.

1544
01:40:02,892 --> 01:40:03,942
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1545
01:40:04,706 --> 01:40:10,226
But, uh, no, anyway, uh, I mean, there's, there's so much more to explore.

1546
01:40:10,226 --> 01:40:13,336
I wish we had all week to talk and maybe we do in January.

1547
01:40:13,366 --> 01:40:16,366
And I'm looking forward to that a lot, if that's the case.

1548
01:40:16,846 --> 01:40:20,246
Now, uh, Jeff, this has been an absolute pleasure.

1549
01:40:20,256 --> 01:40:23,636
Is there, is there anywhere where you want to send our listeners?

1550
01:40:24,161 --> 01:40:27,551
I think most of your listeners know where to find me, um, just,

1551
01:40:27,581 --> 01:40:29,791
just not on Twitter, on Nostr.

1552
01:40:30,356 --> 01:40:30,846
All right.

1553
01:40:31,286 --> 01:40:32,356
Well, all the best.

1554
01:40:33,436 --> 01:40:34,336
Until next time.

1555
01:40:34,791 --> 01:40:35,121
too.

1556
01:40:35,651 --> 01:40:36,011
See you,

1557
01:40:36,186 --> 01:40:37,286
thanks again, Jeff.

1558
01:40:37,286 --> 01:40:40,226
I'll echo that and let's just leave off with that.

1559
01:40:40,236 --> 01:40:42,016
Thanks again for the awesome conversation.

1560
01:40:42,251 --> 01:40:42,521
Yeah.

1561
01:40:42,521 --> 01:40:43,656
Right back at you, Luke.

1562
01:40:44,346 --> 01:40:44,576
Take care.