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one number that I've long looked at, like for a very long time is,

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just simple internet adoption.

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If you look at the percentages   I think early 1995, it was 9%, and then it

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jumped to 16 percent in the next year.

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So to me, that is what I want to see in Bitcoin, where like, we can

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really say like, Ooh, this is a moment where we're really going mainstream.

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And I think it's coming this cycle.

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it doesn't mean we have complete saturation, but it does mean that the.

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The S curve starts to accelerate

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin

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philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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In today's episode, we're joined by Tur Demeester, editor in chief at Adamant

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Research and long time Bitcoiner.

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In this in person interview recorded at Baltic Honey Badger 2023, we

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explore a wide range of topics.

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We discuss the connection between Bitcoin and Austrian economics.

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We explore trends in Bitcoin adoption.

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And we consider Bitcoin's resiliency.

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We even cover how we can avoid the biggest long term threat to Bitcoin.

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Stay tuned for that.

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But before we jump in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show

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is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value

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podcasting app such as Fountain.

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If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain.

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You can earn sats from listening and you can support us and

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You can also support us on geyser fund or send sats directly to our

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lightning address freedom at getalby.

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com.

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And if you want to exchange your dirty fiat, you can support us on Patreon.

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All our links are in the description.

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If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode

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and subscribe to the channel.

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Even if you're listening as a podcast, head over to our YouTube

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channel and subscribe to us there.

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It would be a big help.

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And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors Wasabi Wallet,

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Orange Pill App, The Bitcoin Way.

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We'll be talking a bit more about them later.

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And now, without further ado, here is Thurde Meester on

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the Freedom Footprint show.

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Welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Yeah.

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We've, we've been, uh, eager to talk to you for a long time.

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Yeah.

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Or like, we've been talking about talking for

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quite some time.

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Yeah.

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And it's so nice when you can finally meet someone in person.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It just, it's so much nicer than to do it over

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Zoom.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, yeah, give us the, the T L D R on tour.

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Dester, who are you?

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And uh, what is your thing

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like, uh, sure.

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Yeah.

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Um, I mean, I grew up in Belgium.

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I, um, kind of was very undecided about what to do after, after high school.

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I tried like a million things.

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I dropped out of university.

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Um, I traveled.

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I, I lived in Norway for a year, all kinds of stuff.

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Um, eventually found, um, Some Austrian school ideas, like early on, like, uh,

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you know, Human Action from Mises and some other books that, and not just

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me, like, several friends of mine.

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Did you read Human

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Action

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at an early age?

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It was it was, uh, it was Human Action.

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We were, I mean, not that young, like, you know, twenty...

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Maybe I was 22, 23 or something, um, but yeah, to me, it was very profound to

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encounter that stuff, because not only was it economic ideas that made sense,

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but like, the first part of human action is just, you know, hardcore philosophy,

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and he basically just, you know, wipes the floor with like, relativism, and

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a lot of things I had been struggling with, like free will, or like, you

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know, the power of the group, or like, all these kind of ideas that are, I

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Almost, like, subliminally passed on to you through public schooling, you know.

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Mises was very, not only talking about them, but very decisively

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debunking a bunch of those things.

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And it was such a, it was very emotional, like, for me to, like,

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you know, be exposed to that.

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And, uh, and so from then on, I really, that became a big part of my life.

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Like, you know, economics, Austrian school, philosophy.

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Yeah, same thing happened to me.

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Like, I, I, I couldn't let go of the book.

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People think it's a hard read, but I felt, uh, I think it flows very well.

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And I mean, there are long sentences, but.

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Come on.

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And it's also, it's so quotable, like it's so dense.

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I love that.

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There's no fluff.

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You can just

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like...

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It's like 1, 800 pages of no fluff.

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So that's why I wrote the Praxeology book, to like squeeze those

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1, 800 pages into 130 instead.

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And like, uh, I don't know if I succeeded or not, but I, I felt there was a...

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whole in the market there for a

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beginner's level, of course.

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And Mises, like, he invents new words.

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I mean, clearly he is German in his mother tongue.

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I think he only moved to the US when he was

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60.

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Yeah, and he was friends with Ayn Rand, or became friends over there,

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and they have, like, a similar story.

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His life story is fascinating.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, that whole rabbit hole is so, to me it felt like reading

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something like Newton or something, something very fundamental that was

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just missing from the entire school curricula, like, this is like, holy

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shit, why haven't we talked about this?

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This is as important as mathematics, really, but, and I think it was

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Rob Breedlove who said in a, just a casual conversation that Uh,

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praxeology is to the subjective what mathematics is to the objective.

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And I, of course, I use that in my book because I think it's so, I think

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that puts the finger on what it is.

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I think Mises would be very happy with that because his brother

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was a mathematician, right?

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And so to like, to have that validation that people see his, his

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thoroughness as a, as being so Solid, that you can actually even compare

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it with something like mathematics.

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Yeah, and, yeah, because, like, mathematics is a priori, too, in a sense.

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It starts from a set of irrefutable axioms, like 1 plus 1 equals 2,

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because we define 2 as 1 plus 1.

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Yep.

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Sort of, and, uh, yeah, this...

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Just a priori versus a posteriori or logical deductive

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reasoning versus empiricism.

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I think that's so much there, like it, for me, it put the finger on why,

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like, why science, empirical science.

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And empirical science by itself just isn't enough to understand the

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world, like you need to understand incentives to understand anything.

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Right, and empirical science has a lot of presuppositions that are not

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talked about, that are actually a

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priori.

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Yeah, yeah, and also that it's never precise because the map

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can never be the territory.

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That's the a priori is precise and that's, that's why it's limited, but it's also

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why it's so more rigid, I would say.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I think there is only one.

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It's hard to say if it's, I would have to study it more to decide, like, is

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it really a gripe for me with Mises?

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It's just that I personally lean more Aristotelian, you know,

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which is phenomenology and you're looking at more things from, from

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different angles, uh, rather than.

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The Kantian framework feels a bit more like, you know, this, this,

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this thing is on the board and then you kind of just reason within your

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mathematical proof, so to speak.

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And I think sometimes you lose aspects of reality.

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Like, for example, the, you know, Mises, you know, being so emphatic that,

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um, economics needs to be wertfrei, like free from value judgments.

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I think he...

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Eventually you get stuck, like it gets too limited if you cannot talk about fraud

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or theft or, you know, and that's where Rothbard has a bit of a different take.

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But like as far as purely aesthetically or just purely as a,

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as an experience, I prefer Mises over any of the other, you know, it's,

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it's incredible to read, to read

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him.

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Did you read a Hopper book called, uh, Economic Science and the Austrian

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Method?

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I, I think I've read.

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Parts of it.

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Cause at some point, cause he's, this is a method, methodology.

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It's a lot about methodology.

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Yeah.

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I've read parts of it,

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I think, a long time ago,

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but yeah.

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I love that book.

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That was also very dense.

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It's very much shorter than human action, but yeah, it talks a lot about methodology

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and like the differences and how

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significant they are.

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And does the, uh, go into argumentation ethics there?

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Uh, uh, If I remember it, because it touches on it, but argument,

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his argumentation, I think it's one of the most profound insights

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of the last century and it's never talked about and like, Yeah,

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it's, uh, it's very under, underappreciated.

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I agree.

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It's so powerful.

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It's so powerful.

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Yeah.

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Um, and, and, I mean, who knows in the future, we'll see some, it

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would be great to have some debates about how, how it started and

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where, where, um, Uh, where, uh, Argumentation Ethics started, because...

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I think they were independently kind of uncovered, discovered, uh, both by

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Hoppe and then a little bit earlier, Frank van Doorn, but he wrote in

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Dutch, and so he had a whole, uh, the, the foundational principle of law,

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which he basically makes the argument from argumentation, um, And so they

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really complement each other nicely.

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But I agree.

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It's so, you know, it's so foundational.

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Although I think, you know, if you're an Aristotelian, it's more like it's one

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proof, but I think you can find multiple proofs to kind of, kind of, you know, be

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going at the same framework eventually.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's tightly connected to philosophy, as you say, like they're tangent

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to one another, the way I see it.

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All right.

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So, so, if we take the, uh, the deep hopium stuff about Bitcoin and that we

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will hyperbitcoinize and it'll take over everything, does that in your mind, does

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that remove violence from the equation?

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Almost entirely, so that what we have is, left is argumentation

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and just conversation and, well, peace, world peace.

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Is that

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where we're going?

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Yeah, I, I, I'm afraid it's not enough.

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I, I really am of the camp that like, even under a gold standard, you had

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enormously bloody wars and, you know, and, and, uh, a lot of, a lot of issues.

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I think that, you know, there's a great.

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Opportunity here.

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Like that's what I had my talk about today.

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This is great opportunity because uh, if you think about the principles

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that allow for peace in society, one of those principles, I think

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there are four according to Van Den and I follow him, there's four.

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One of them is Restriction of access, you know, because if you have open

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access, if any kind of, there's no real property rights, right?

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If your stuff and mine, it's all fuzzy and that then people live

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in this perennial uncertainty, anxiety, anything can be conscious.

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The Fiat regime is kind of like that.

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Because literally your bank account is just a free for all, you know,

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they can take value from it whenever, whenever they want, you know,

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banks or governments or whoever's, whoever can add to the money supply.

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And so Bitcoin.

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And of course, the cypherpunk movement as a whole, and encryption, all that

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technology allows you to restrict access, um, restrict the world from

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accessing your, what's yours, your property, and so it's a great engine

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for peace, you know, and it creates that certainty, so it's a super important

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and foundational But I still think we need more than just that to, to really

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go towards, um, a society where, yeah, I mean, ideally there is no war, right?

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I mean, that's a pretty, pretty.

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What would that more be

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though?

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Yeah.

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So, so the other principles.

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One of the other two foundational principles, uh, is, is unity, which you

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00:11:54,292 --> 00:11:59,062
could kind of dismiss because unity is the idea that if, if, uh, you know, you

246
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are sitting there with two, you're both thirsty, there's only one bottle of water.

247
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How do we prevent conflict?

248
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Well, we make sure there's only one person sitting there.

249
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So, so like physically, how do you do that?

250
00:12:09,462 --> 00:12:11,962
How do you create one out of multiple people?

251
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And I do think there is something to be said for Embracing the idea that

252
00:12:17,749 --> 00:12:21,569
you are part of something bigger, like that's why we don't murder other people,

253
00:12:21,579 --> 00:12:25,049
because we feel like we're part of humanity, right, it kind of, it kind of

254
00:12:25,089 --> 00:12:29,399
elevates us, or like, you know, people have certain ethical standards because

255
00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:32,706
they feel like, it's not just for me selfishly, it's just because it is.

256
00:12:32,706 --> 00:12:32,893
It is.

257
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I want to be part of something bigger that, that is, that, that means something.

258
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And so that is like another, that, that sense of, of unity to be, to voluntarily,

259
00:12:43,794 --> 00:12:49,179
which is important, to voluntarily give up a little bit of your Individual

260
00:12:49,179 --> 00:12:54,359
preferences to elevate the greater good, I think is, uh, it's, it sounds very corny,

261
00:12:54,359 --> 00:12:58,459
but I think it's, it's pretty, pretty foundational because in a way, like some

262
00:12:58,459 --> 00:13:04,829
of the goodwill is, some of that goodwill is sometimes what people give up to invest

263
00:13:04,889 --> 00:13:08,279
in understanding Bitcoin, because they feel like, oh, maybe this is something

264
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that can make things better for everyone.

265
00:13:11,369 --> 00:13:14,469
Um, or, or even if it's against my career, I'm still going to have

266
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the intellectual honesty, just, you know, so that's just one, one other.

267
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Example, and then there's a few more, but there they're more higher up.

268
00:13:22,469 --> 00:13:25,709
And it's more to do with like, uh, having a healthy debating culture,

269
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for example, like free speech.

270
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And, and, uh, I think, I don't think Bitcoin guarantees that.

271
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I think Bitcoin can facilitate some of it, but we still need to do the work to Well,

272
00:13:36,089 --> 00:13:38,939
can Bitcoin culture though that then like Yeah.

273
00:13:38,939 --> 00:13:40,049
Is, is Oh yeah.

274
00:13:40,049 --> 00:13:40,050
Yeah.

275
00:13:40,319 --> 00:13:43,769
But it's, but it, but that's something that is alive and that we also need Yeah.

276
00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:44,549
It's like a garden.

277
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You need to maintain it.

278
00:13:45,809 --> 00:13:45,959
Yeah.

279
00:13:45,964 --> 00:13:46,139
Yeah.

280
00:13:46,139 --> 00:13:46,259
You

281
00:13:46,259 --> 00:13:47,389
know, but that's the thing.

282
00:13:48,549 --> 00:13:53,239
For me, it's hard to make the distinction between the protocol, the money, the

283
00:13:53,249 --> 00:14:00,359
culture, like it's all part of the same organism in a way, and it's, I see it

284
00:14:00,359 --> 00:14:05,409
as, as like being just different aspects of the same phenomenon, which is just

285
00:14:05,729 --> 00:14:10,439
Oh, we found a way to communicate value with one another without third parties.

286
00:14:10,609 --> 00:14:15,589
And that's so profound, like that means, that means peace.

287
00:14:15,619 --> 00:14:19,929
Like the way I put it in one of the books was like, when you cannot put a, when you

288
00:14:20,179 --> 00:14:22,119
cannot know how much another person owns.

289
00:14:22,594 --> 00:14:26,574
Which is true for everyone on earth right now, since they might

290
00:14:26,584 --> 00:14:30,834
hold a private key in their heads, and you cannot take it by force.

291
00:14:31,624 --> 00:14:35,104
The best way to enrich yourself is by interacting peacefully

292
00:14:35,104 --> 00:14:36,204
and trading with that person.

293
00:14:36,434 --> 00:14:37,744
And violence, the, the...

294
00:14:38,509 --> 00:14:42,969
The shelling point for violence, if you will, or like the incentive to, to aggress

295
00:14:42,979 --> 00:14:44,759
against another goes down drastically.

296
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:49,869
But what, what I struggle with is like, how drastically, like, uh, game theory

297
00:14:49,869 --> 00:14:53,599
sort of says that you get half of the Bitcoin if you like torture the guy.

298
00:14:53,869 --> 00:14:58,739
But, uh, but, but still, I think it's, I think it's more than that

299
00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,409
because the, the incentives to just be good to one another are.

300
00:15:05,019 --> 00:15:06,419
They get boosted as well.

301
00:15:06,439 --> 00:15:10,449
Like that, that vector is very, very powerful.

302
00:15:11,599 --> 00:15:11,959
Yeah.

303
00:15:11,959 --> 00:15:13,519
I mean, I, I hear you.

304
00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:15,019
I think it's very significant.

305
00:15:15,049 --> 00:15:20,519
Uh, I, where I would hesitate is just, you know, maybe it depends on how long

306
00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:21,829
a timeframe we're talking about here.

307
00:15:22,219 --> 00:15:26,239
For example, when, when the printing press was invented and, and, and, you

308
00:15:26,239 --> 00:15:30,029
know, gradually books became cheaper, like the price of a book went roughly

309
00:15:30,029 --> 00:15:34,914
from, A year's labor, which is in the Middle Ages, to the price of a chicken.

310
00:15:34,924 --> 00:15:38,094
Like that's, that's how much drastically information became

311
00:15:38,094 --> 00:15:39,774
cheaper in that one century.

312
00:15:40,254 --> 00:15:47,074
Um, you know, back then, imagine realizing like, oh my God, information has been

313
00:15:47,084 --> 00:15:49,144
locked up for centuries and centuries.

314
00:15:49,174 --> 00:15:51,074
All of a sudden, it's liberated.

315
00:15:51,344 --> 00:15:54,214
Everyone is going to have access to these incredible ideas.

316
00:15:54,624 --> 00:15:56,484
They can make up their own opinion, you know.

317
00:15:56,904 --> 00:15:58,934
Uh, this is such a force for good.

318
00:16:00,109 --> 00:16:05,019
I would agree with that, but at the same time, over many generations, some of

319
00:16:05,019 --> 00:16:10,239
the appreciation for how valuable it is to have like a plethora of ideas, how

320
00:16:10,239 --> 00:16:13,489
important it is to have freedom of speech, because I think a lot of the enlightenment

321
00:16:13,499 --> 00:16:18,109
thinkers were really trying to Come up with theoretical foundations for why

322
00:16:18,109 --> 00:16:21,599
freedom of speech is important, because they, it was a fact, it was happening,

323
00:16:21,599 --> 00:16:26,049
people were interacting more freely than before, and so they needed new theories

324
00:16:26,059 --> 00:16:30,169
to try and justify that, and so, you know, I think still, the theory, and I think

325
00:16:30,169 --> 00:16:34,929
they You know, you could kind of debate on how successful the Enlightenment was in

326
00:16:34,929 --> 00:16:38,369
really elevating humanity and not throwing the baby away with the, because there

327
00:16:38,369 --> 00:16:42,479
were some good things in the Middle Ages, so, so that's, I think, you know, that's

328
00:16:42,479 --> 00:16:46,608
kind of our job, is to start working on trying to sort of live up to that.

329
00:16:46,959 --> 00:16:51,979
Really, uh, treasure what's great about Bitcoin, help people understand what's

330
00:16:51,979 --> 00:16:57,159
great about Bitcoin so that the ethos of Bitcoin can really spread and people don't

331
00:16:57,159 --> 00:16:59,329
get confused in a couple generations.

332
00:16:59,819 --> 00:17:04,239
There's, there's a section in a Rothbard book called The Ethics of Liberty

333
00:17:04,289 --> 00:17:09,068
about freedom of speech, which changed my mind on it because like he, he,

334
00:17:09,219 --> 00:17:15,059
points out that everyone forgets to ask, like the, there's a word missing.

335
00:17:15,149 --> 00:17:17,279
Are you, are you pro freedom of speech?

336
00:17:17,729 --> 00:17:21,319
Well, the question should be freedom of, the counter question

337
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:22,769
should be freedom of speech where?

338
00:17:23,349 --> 00:17:27,879
And you realize that it's only in publicly owned spaces that freedom

339
00:17:27,879 --> 00:17:32,139
of speech is important, because he argues that freedom of speech is only

340
00:17:33,099 --> 00:17:37,859
Necessary because property rights have been violated at some point, because

341
00:17:38,109 --> 00:17:43,919
if I own my house, I get to dictate the rules in my house from natural law and

342
00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:46,429
ethics, Austrian ethics, if you will.

343
00:17:46,859 --> 00:17:52,759
Uh, so, so, so he argues that freedom of speech is sort of a facade in the

344
00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:57,724
sense that It needs to be preceded by a violation of property rights.

345
00:17:58,794 --> 00:18:01,264
I find that framework very interesting.

346
00:18:01,404 --> 00:18:03,034
Wow, yeah, I like that a lot.

347
00:18:03,064 --> 00:18:08,634
And you can think about a place like Dubai or even Saudi Arabia as

348
00:18:08,634 --> 00:18:13,814
compared to, you know, a European free speech maximalist place.

349
00:18:15,469 --> 00:18:21,579
And you could argue that, yeah, sure, uh, freedom of speech is suppressed here in

350
00:18:21,579 --> 00:18:27,669
the, uh, in Dubai to a certain extent, but, but the property rights are stronger

351
00:18:28,099 --> 00:18:32,709
and which one is more important because like in, in Sweden, for instance, you

352
00:18:32,709 --> 00:18:36,259
don't have the same level of property rights, but you have freedom of speech,

353
00:18:36,699 --> 00:18:41,859
uh, which leads to people burning the Quran and, uh, there's a big, um, uh,

354
00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:46,069
police escort for the guy burning it and there's a big riot and the media

355
00:18:46,069 --> 00:18:52,719
is there and they're turning this into this big news event and like what what's

356
00:18:52,719 --> 00:18:57,339
more important like property rights or freedom of speech or is is that dichotomy

357
00:18:57,339 --> 00:18:59,569
real or what are your thoughts on that

358
00:18:59,569 --> 00:19:03,239
yeah yeah Yeah, well I think property rights are more foundational.

359
00:19:03,239 --> 00:19:07,599
I think property rights belong to, um, the, the layer of

360
00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:08,999
the restriction of access.

361
00:19:09,099 --> 00:19:11,479
And I think that is, that is just more foundational.

362
00:19:11,849 --> 00:19:17,619
Um, and then that enables, uh, the safety to engage in open debates, to

363
00:19:17,689 --> 00:19:19,339
have all these differences in opinions.

364
00:19:19,339 --> 00:19:23,849
Because if I know that you're going to respect my body, we're, we're, Get

365
00:19:23,849 --> 00:19:25,179
into argumentation ethics, almost.

366
00:19:25,439 --> 00:19:27,989
If I know you're going to respect my bodily integrity, well,

367
00:19:27,989 --> 00:19:29,429
then I feel safe to say things.

368
00:19:29,439 --> 00:19:32,439
If you're sitting in front of me and you're playing with your

369
00:19:32,439 --> 00:19:35,729
knife, and I know you have a history of assault, I'm going to be

370
00:19:35,919 --> 00:19:36,399
more careful.

371
00:19:36,589 --> 00:19:37,739
What's that quote?

372
00:19:37,829 --> 00:19:40,449
It's easier to get what you want with a kind word and a

373
00:19:40,449 --> 00:19:42,219
gun than with just a kind word.

374
00:19:42,809 --> 00:19:43,279
Exactly.

375
00:19:43,689 --> 00:19:44,699
Yeah, no, totally.

376
00:19:45,704 --> 00:19:46,174
Yeah.

377
00:19:46,444 --> 00:19:46,794
So yeah.

378
00:19:46,794 --> 00:19:48,404
And so to me, that, that is also right.

379
00:19:48,404 --> 00:19:52,914
I mean, had, had Rothbard been around during the enlightenment and kind of

380
00:19:52,914 --> 00:19:58,134
like, you know, whip some sense into metaphorically into the philosophy of

381
00:19:58,134 --> 00:20:02,484
the day, maybe there would have been a stronger foundation for, for freedom

382
00:20:02,484 --> 00:20:08,274
of speech or, or just thinking about intellectual expression than we have now.

383
00:20:08,821 --> 00:20:12,001
I think, I think this is a really interesting line here when we, when we

384
00:20:12,001 --> 00:20:15,311
tie it into the Bitcoin of it all, right?

385
00:20:15,661 --> 00:20:20,241
Uh, I, I think the, the line between all we'll talk about here,

386
00:20:20,241 --> 00:20:23,501
the, the argumentation ethics, Austrian economics and all this.

387
00:20:24,466 --> 00:20:28,066
What, so this is the first thing that you brought, brought up basically, like

388
00:20:28,066 --> 00:20:29,746
you found this stuff before mm-hmm.

389
00:20:29,986 --> 00:20:30,316
Bitcoin.

390
00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:30,406
Oh, yeah.

391
00:20:30,586 --> 00:20:30,796
Right.

392
00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:30,916
Oh yeah.

393
00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,126
And so, and so how did that influence your journey into Bitcoin

394
00:20:34,126 --> 00:20:37,846
and, and how you, uh, found it and, and how it impacts your life?

395
00:20:38,586 --> 00:20:38,736
Yeah.

396
00:20:38,736 --> 00:20:41,326
So, Austrian economics.

397
00:20:41,326 --> 00:20:43,516
Like we started the Rothbard Institute in Belgium.

398
00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:46,306
We translated some books, organized seminars, things like that.

399
00:20:47,030 --> 00:20:54,100
and, uh, I, I started to look for ways to, to use this somehow.

400
00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:57,670
I mean, I, I, I made a little tiny bit of money translating,

401
00:20:57,670 --> 00:20:58,900
so that, that kind of helps.

402
00:20:58,900 --> 00:20:59,260
Actually.

403
00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:03,160
You might know this book, uh, money Bank Credit and Economic Cycles by De Soto.

404
00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:05,020
Yeah, yeah, I heard about it.

405
00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:05,460
I haven't read it.

406
00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:06,500
I translated that to Dutch.

407
00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:08,010
Oh my God.

408
00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:09,510
What's the title in Dutch?

409
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,630
I spent nine months doing that.

410
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:11,990
Sorry?

411
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:12,890
What's the title in Dutch?

412
00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:14,500
Geld, Krediet en Krisis.

413
00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:19,310
Yeah, and it's, it appeared in a very low volume, but it's still out there.

414
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:22,000
Um, the footnotes are just enormous.

415
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:22,820
It was really hard.

416
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:27,330
And actually, Koen Swenkels, another Bitcoiner, helped me translate it.

417
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,390
Um, but so yeah, that was, that was work that I did.

418
00:21:30,780 --> 00:21:31,260
Um.

419
00:21:31,765 --> 00:21:36,685
And then, uh, with the Rothbard Institute, uh, yeah, we just wanted to connect with

420
00:21:36,685 --> 00:21:41,185
other communities in Europe, um, and so I remember, for example, going to the

421
00:21:41,195 --> 00:21:47,485
Libertarian Alliance Conference in London 2009, Sean Gabb organized that, and,

422
00:21:47,485 --> 00:21:55,205
uh, they had, um, um, David Friedman, he spoke about, uh, anonymous e cash and

423
00:21:55,215 --> 00:22:00,275
assassination markets, which is very, I mean, weirdly I just listened to it

424
00:22:00,275 --> 00:22:03,765
as a theoretical thing and then only thought about it much later, but I do

425
00:22:03,765 --> 00:22:08,605
think that, like, had a little bit of a seed for me, and then also, I, I needed

426
00:22:08,605 --> 00:22:12,345
to start some kind of a career because I was involved with little private schools

427
00:22:12,345 --> 00:22:16,485
and I was like, man, If, if I ever want to send my kids to a school like this,

428
00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:17,805
I need to find a way to make money.

429
00:22:17,805 --> 00:22:20,565
Like I, you know, I need to be able to pay for tuition and things like that.

430
00:22:20,565 --> 00:22:20,655
Yeah.

431
00:22:21,315 --> 00:22:23,355
So I was like, all right, how do I make a career?

432
00:22:23,355 --> 00:22:27,075
And I started writing about the markets, 'cause the, the things started rumbling by

433
00:22:27,075 --> 00:22:30,645
2006 seven in, in the, in the US markets.

434
00:22:30,645 --> 00:22:30,646
Mm-hmm.

435
00:22:30,652 --> 00:22:34,575
. And so I started writing about the crisis, the economic crisis.

436
00:22:34,875 --> 00:22:39,015
And uh, eventually, uh, in 2010, a publisher found me and

437
00:22:39,015 --> 00:22:41,235
he is like, Hey, you know, you wanna make your job out of this?

438
00:22:42,370 --> 00:22:46,660
I was doing it for free and he basically offered me an opportunity

439
00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:50,280
to become an author of a A financial and investment newsletter.

440
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:51,580
So that's what I started doing.

441
00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:52,730
That became my career.

442
00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:59,330
And so then, because I was, you know, I had some history background of banking

443
00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:01,560
and finance and this Austrian stuff.

444
00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:05,900
And so I was really thinking about how to find investments

445
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:07,720
that will keep you safe during...

446
00:23:08,105 --> 00:23:12,035
A banking crisis or doing a very high inflation because I was worried about the

447
00:23:12,035 --> 00:23:13,745
euro or, you know, scenarios like that.

448
00:23:14,145 --> 00:23:18,415
So I traveled to Latin America to learn more about how people, people

449
00:23:18,565 --> 00:23:20,485
survive inflation in general.

450
00:23:20,505 --> 00:23:24,645
And, um, and so then, you know, in Argentina, I learned about Bitcoin.

451
00:23:25,005 --> 00:23:30,295
Friends of mine were mining Bitcoin in their basement, literally in 2011 and, um.

452
00:23:30,565 --> 00:23:31,375
Uh, I'm trying to think.

453
00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:34,485
There was some other touch points with Bitcoin early on.

454
00:23:34,905 --> 00:23:39,425
Uh, well, I guess, yeah, I was just looking for that gold.

455
00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,975
I was into the gold world and investing, uh, investigating

456
00:23:43,985 --> 00:23:46,285
mining companies and so...

457
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,450
It made sense.

458
00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:52,030
I had been, you know, downloading, I don't know, like, self help books

459
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:55,600
with BitTorrent and movies and stuff like that, and so the idea

460
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,750
of, like, a BitTorrent for money, it kind of made sense, you know, so.

461
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,140
And when was this?

462
00:24:02,110 --> 00:24:04,050
I first learned about Bitcoin in, like, uh...

463
00:24:04,295 --> 00:24:06,295
I don't know, I think April 2011 or something.

464
00:24:06,295 --> 00:24:07,075
Yeah, pretty early.

465
00:24:07,095 --> 00:24:08,635
Yeah, very early actually.

466
00:24:08,635 --> 00:24:11,995
And, and, uh, and I had the time to just research it.

467
00:24:11,995 --> 00:24:17,355
And then by early 2012, I, I went, uh, I, I wrote about it for

468
00:24:17,355 --> 00:24:21,875
my subscribers, uh, and actually recommended it also as an investment.

469
00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:26,645
And then I went to a Bitcoin conference in London in 2012 as well.

470
00:24:26,645 --> 00:24:29,985
And then I started making some connections in the Bitcoin world.

471
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,250
So it clicked easily for you?

472
00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:35,290
Like, it clicked fast?

473
00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:36,590
I was just lucky.

474
00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:39,970
I was so lucky that I had, you know, some of the Austrian background, like, you

475
00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:45,430
know, and that also I ran into, I reached out to Pieter Goyle, core developer who

476
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:48,930
was living in Leuven at the time, like, he's a Belgian, and I had, like, a long

477
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,040
Skype call with him, which I transcribed into an interview for my readers.

478
00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:58,860
And then, of course, my friends in Argentina, like, they really...

479
00:24:59,470 --> 00:25:03,190
were really into Bitcoin, they really, and they also knew their Austrian

480
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:07,230
economics, so it just, it just really helped to solidify things, yeah.

481
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:07,740
So,

482
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,110
uh, Argentina, like, there's a Bitcoin scene there now, I don't know how

483
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:17,330
big it is, but, but it's still kind of small as far as I understand.

484
00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:20,700
And why do you think that is when it's been around for so long?

485
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:24,500
Like, why doesn't it take off in a place like that where it's, because

486
00:25:25,450 --> 00:25:29,500
people always tell me that it's easy to, um, uh, orange pill people.

487
00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:31,215
who have lived through hyperbitcoinization.

488
00:25:31,235 --> 00:25:32,515
And I've seen it firsthand.

489
00:25:32,605 --> 00:25:37,415
I mean, uh, so, um, so why do you think that is?

490
00:25:37,415 --> 00:25:38,865
Why, why is the community not

491
00:25:38,915 --> 00:25:39,625
larger?

492
00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:42,555
I think there's two, two things I'm thinking of.

493
00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:46,085
One is just Bitcoin is just incredibly volatile.

494
00:25:46,085 --> 00:25:49,755
And so for a lot of Argentinians, you just, you save in dollars, you save.

495
00:25:49,755 --> 00:25:53,685
And I remember back in the day, the number was like 50 billion in paper

496
00:25:53,685 --> 00:25:55,095
money circulating in Argentina.

497
00:25:55,095 --> 00:25:57,125
I think it's now triple that or more.

498
00:25:57,565 --> 00:25:59,745
And so, you know, if you want to buy a house, you just, you know,

499
00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:01,125
just a suitcase with dollar bills.

500
00:26:01,125 --> 00:26:05,395
Like, so, so in a way, they are on a dollar standard in, in, in many

501
00:26:05,415 --> 00:26:07,535
practical, you know, sense of the word.

502
00:26:07,575 --> 00:26:09,315
And so Bitcoin cycles are so long.

503
00:26:10,165 --> 00:26:13,205
It is, you know, if you don't have a lot of savings, really risky to be

504
00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:17,715
very exposed to it, uh, for, for, you know, more than like a couple months.

505
00:26:18,255 --> 00:26:19,275
So I think that's one reason.

506
00:26:19,275 --> 00:26:23,145
I think the other reason may be that there could actually be more adoption,

507
00:26:23,655 --> 00:26:25,735
but there's not a lot of showing.

508
00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:29,650
You know, like, for example, in Belgium, I talked to some people, and I'm surprised,

509
00:26:29,650 --> 00:26:33,920
it's like, man, there's actually quite a lot of adoption, but people keep quiet,

510
00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:40,350
because they don't want to be seen as being rich, or, you know, and so, the

511
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,160
thing is, especially in countries with high inflation, you just don't want to

512
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:49,650
become a target, so, I think it could 500 billion worth of value around the world

513
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,185
somewhere, and, um, Yeah, I don't know.

514
00:26:53,235 --> 00:26:56,835
So I don't know if it's necessarily lower than in other countries.

515
00:26:56,855 --> 00:27:01,775
I do think the level of education and level of like, um, tech, you know, if a

516
00:27:01,775 --> 00:27:05,235
country is very tech savvy, you do tend to see more Bitcoin adoption, I think.

517
00:27:05,285 --> 00:27:05,575
Yeah.

518
00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:08,049
So how are you enjoying this episode so far?

519
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541
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562
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Alright back to it.

563
00:29:11,649 --> 00:29:13,349
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth.

564
00:29:13,776 --> 00:29:18,886
We, um, recently Found out a number, uh, talking to Christiana,

565
00:29:18,886 --> 00:29:21,256
the, the founder of the B T C X.

566
00:29:21,256 --> 00:29:23,176
The, the oldest Swedish Exchange.

567
00:29:23,386 --> 00:29:23,566
Yeah.

568
00:29:23,656 --> 00:29:27,166
And he is, had around 300,000 customers over the years.

569
00:29:27,256 --> 00:29:28,306
Is this all Swedish?

570
00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:30,196
Uh, almost all Swedish.

571
00:29:30,201 --> 00:29:30,466
Yeah.

572
00:29:30,466 --> 00:29:30,676
Wow.

573
00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:34,546
So, so, and if you add the other big exchange there and the fact that

574
00:29:34,546 --> 00:29:38,386
people buy from others and accept Bitcoin and buy from, you know,

575
00:29:38,386 --> 00:29:43,986
Kraken or whatever, Coinbase, uh, the, we, we sort of estimated them.

576
00:29:44,166 --> 00:29:49,121
There might be a, um, Half a million people owning Bitcoin in the country,

577
00:29:49,241 --> 00:29:50,881
which is a 10 million population.

578
00:29:50,911 --> 00:29:55,181
Yeah, so it's it's 5 percent of the population Yeah, and then you

579
00:29:55,181 --> 00:30:00,641
realize that All of these people can pay other people in Bitcoin, and

580
00:30:00,651 --> 00:30:07,431
100 percent of the population can receive it within a minute by just

581
00:30:07,431 --> 00:30:08,961
installing something on their phone.

582
00:30:09,321 --> 00:30:12,051
Yeah, and all of a sudden, Bitcoin standard doesn't sound so crazy anymore.

583
00:30:12,071 --> 00:30:12,401
No,

584
00:30:12,451 --> 00:30:16,191
so, so, so, and the way, uh, yeah, my experience, like, traveling to

585
00:30:16,191 --> 00:30:18,821
all these conferences around the world and seeing the communities

586
00:30:18,821 --> 00:30:20,651
and meetups and stuff, it's that...

587
00:30:21,141 --> 00:30:24,841
It's sort of small everywhere, but it's literally everywhere.

588
00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:29,471
And every one horse town in every country, there's a Bitcoiner somewhere.

589
00:30:29,841 --> 00:30:33,511
And like, so I feel this like undercurrent, it's,

590
00:30:33,711 --> 00:30:35,571
it's just waiting to explode.

591
00:30:36,051 --> 00:30:36,561
Uh.

592
00:30:36,866 --> 00:30:39,326
Then again, it has felt that for quite some time.

593
00:30:39,326 --> 00:30:42,196
So like what, what's your view on that?

594
00:30:42,256 --> 00:30:43,426
Like, is is that a

595
00:30:43,486 --> 00:30:44,836
accurate representation?

596
00:30:44,866 --> 00:30:45,466
I think so, yeah.

597
00:30:45,466 --> 00:30:49,216
Do, do you think there is Bitcoiners in like North Korea or the Vatican or both?

598
00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:51,776
Oh, that's, that's

599
00:30:51,776 --> 00:30:52,406
hard to tell.

600
00:30:52,406 --> 00:30:54,446
I mean, the, uh, yeah.

601
00:30:54,566 --> 00:30:57,536
In North Korea, I, yeah, definitely.

602
00:30:57,566 --> 00:30:58,166
I would think so.

603
00:30:58,166 --> 00:30:58,556
Yeah.

604
00:30:58,616 --> 00:31:02,186
Uh, the Vatican is, uh, significantly smaller.

605
00:31:02,186 --> 00:31:02,336
Yeah.

606
00:31:02,336 --> 00:31:02,996
I, many, there's not a

607
00:31:03,001 --> 00:31:03,596
lot of people actually

608
00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:03,956
living there.

609
00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:04,046
Right.

610
00:31:04,046 --> 00:31:06,006
They're, they're quite conservative there, right here really are.

611
00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:08,076
That's the first thing I hear about it.

612
00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:08,856
So, I don't know.

613
00:31:08,926 --> 00:31:10,306
Uh, very

614
00:31:10,306 --> 00:31:13,396
tied up in the fiat system as well, I believe, so, yeah,

615
00:31:13,456 --> 00:31:14,366
their, their own version

616
00:31:14,366 --> 00:31:14,626
of it.

617
00:31:14,636 --> 00:31:18,056
I mean, I mean, in terms of portfolio, they have a lot of art, they have some

618
00:31:18,056 --> 00:31:20,036
gold, like they have real estate, like.

619
00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:25,226
I mean, don't trust verify, it doesn't sound like a, like a mantra that's,

620
00:31:25,506 --> 00:31:27,116
that's compatible with the Vatican.

621
00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:27,536
I don't know, I

622
00:31:27,536 --> 00:31:32,006
don't know, like the Catholic tradition, you know, the, the, the scholastics

623
00:31:32,006 --> 00:31:34,726
like Aquinas, they believe like through, through reason, you could,

624
00:31:34,746 --> 00:31:36,486
you can reason your way, you cannot.

625
00:31:36,651 --> 00:31:40,461
Through reason, know everything about God, but you can at least prove

626
00:31:40,461 --> 00:31:44,391
that he exists and, and, you know, discover parts of his nature so well.

627
00:31:44,391 --> 00:31:46,971
There's a, there's a, you know, I'm not convinced , it doesn't mean

628
00:31:46,971 --> 00:31:50,171
that there's still, you know, but I mean, you know, there, there's at

629
00:31:50,171 --> 00:31:52,691
least, there's at least a, a pathway.

630
00:31:52,696 --> 00:31:53,171
Yeah, yeah.

631
00:31:53,171 --> 00:31:55,151
For, for reason, for sure.

632
00:31:55,241 --> 00:31:56,741
So, but I, I forgot your question.

633
00:31:56,741 --> 00:31:57,221
I'm sorry.

634
00:31:57,491 --> 00:31:59,771
Uh, I don't even know if there was a question in there.

635
00:31:59,856 --> 00:32:00,686
It was, it was,

636
00:32:00,696 --> 00:32:04,086
uh, the, the situation, I guess, on hyperbitcoinization generally, since

637
00:32:04,126 --> 00:32:08,306
we're, we're maybe at some kind of inflection point, maybe in terms of

638
00:32:08,306 --> 00:32:13,346
the number of people who now have, have had or used Bitcoin, it doesn't

639
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,976
take long to, I mean, maybe we're in a bacon number situation, if that makes

640
00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:20,616
sense, like the, the number of people who are, who know a Bitcoiner is almost

641
00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:21,876
getting to all the people, right?

642
00:32:22,166 --> 00:32:23,996
So, so, so what do you think about that

643
00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:24,606
situation?

644
00:32:24,816 --> 00:32:25,116
Yeah.

645
00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:28,896
I mean, one number that I've long looked at, like for a very long time is,

646
00:32:28,996 --> 00:32:31,916
um, is just simple internet adoption.

647
00:32:31,946 --> 00:32:37,526
Like that trend, um, you know, you, you, you also remember in 1995 being

648
00:32:37,526 --> 00:32:43,021
such an important point in time where all of a sudden it went from how do

649
00:32:43,021 --> 00:32:47,581
you do this, what is the internet, to like, okay, here's a box, you

650
00:32:47,901 --> 00:32:51,241
press the button, and we are online.

651
00:32:51,251 --> 00:32:53,241
Like, that was the Windows 95 moment.

652
00:32:53,251 --> 00:32:55,171
Like, all of a sudden it came together.

653
00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:59,746
And, uh, and, and if you look at the percentages, adoption went from

654
00:32:59,746 --> 00:33:03,896
9 percent in 1994, I believe, or maybe it was 1995, and I think early

655
00:33:03,896 --> 00:33:08,176
1995, it was 9%, and then it jumped to 16 percent in the next year.

656
00:33:08,226 --> 00:33:12,486
So to me, that is what I want to see in Bitcoin, where like, we can

657
00:33:12,486 --> 00:33:16,136
really say like, Ooh, this is a moment where we're really going mainstream.

658
00:33:16,146 --> 00:33:18,096
And I think it's coming this cycle.

659
00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:19,226
I really do believe that.

660
00:33:19,376 --> 00:33:23,366
I, it doesn't mean we have complete saturation, but it does mean that the.

661
00:33:23,746 --> 00:33:25,026
The S curve starts to

662
00:33:25,136 --> 00:33:25,706
accelerate.

663
00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:26,366
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

664
00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:33,026
I, I, uh, uh, remember 95 and 96 vividly and what I was doing and like,

665
00:33:33,686 --> 00:33:35,576
seeing the potential of the internet.

666
00:33:35,616 --> 00:33:38,516
Like, uh, guys, have you seen this thing?

667
00:33:38,526 --> 00:33:42,896
Like, and so many people like not getting it or like not seeing that.

668
00:33:43,186 --> 00:33:43,426
Yeah.

669
00:33:43,466 --> 00:33:47,186
And for, for me, that was, that experience when, when I

670
00:33:47,186 --> 00:33:48,636
discovered Bitcoin, it was like.

671
00:33:49,671 --> 00:33:50,451
I see this now.

672
00:33:50,471 --> 00:33:51,891
This is 1995.

673
00:33:52,221 --> 00:33:53,121
I should be in this.

674
00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:54,201
I should be doing this.

675
00:33:54,241 --> 00:33:55,181
I should be acting on it.

676
00:33:55,191 --> 00:33:58,311
Because at the time in 95, I decided to like, not go into

677
00:33:58,351 --> 00:33:58,371
it.

678
00:33:58,431 --> 00:34:00,811
I also felt like I knew a secret, but I didn't know.

679
00:34:00,811 --> 00:34:02,221
I mean, I was maybe a little bit younger.

680
00:34:02,221 --> 00:34:05,821
I was, I think I was like 14 or 15 when 1995

681
00:34:05,831 --> 00:34:06,331
happened.

682
00:34:06,441 --> 00:34:07,301
Yeah, it would be.

683
00:34:07,681 --> 00:34:08,001
Yeah.

684
00:34:08,141 --> 00:34:09,781
I think you were a couple of years younger than me.

685
00:34:10,021 --> 00:34:13,641
Well, and also I only had my first own, my own computer when I was

686
00:34:13,641 --> 00:34:15,886
like, 20 years old or something.

687
00:34:15,936 --> 00:34:19,566
So in a way I always felt like my friends were far ahead of me

688
00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:21,086
because they had that access.

689
00:34:21,126 --> 00:34:24,286
Like Pietro Bello told me he started programming at age 10.

690
00:34:24,826 --> 00:34:25,916
Yeah, so

691
00:34:26,426 --> 00:34:28,486
did I, but I gave it up for a long time.

692
00:34:28,536 --> 00:34:31,806
So like, I had a Commodore 64, if that counts.

693
00:34:31,866 --> 00:34:34,166
Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't really count that.

694
00:34:34,166 --> 00:34:35,776
But, but it certainly gave me a...

695
00:34:36,646 --> 00:34:41,146
A basic understanding of what a computer is and what it can and cannot do.

696
00:34:41,586 --> 00:34:44,776
And one thing it couldn't do was, you know, keep a secret or,

697
00:34:44,796 --> 00:34:47,446
or make something uncopyable.

698
00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:47,856
Yeah.

699
00:34:47,856 --> 00:34:50,456
So that's, that's the aha moment for me with Bitcoin.

700
00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:51,476
Like, holy shit.

701
00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:51,836
Yeah.

702
00:34:52,296 --> 00:34:53,196
Something that cannot

703
00:34:53,206 --> 00:34:53,806
be copied.

704
00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946
That was, that was my big...

705
00:34:56,766 --> 00:34:57,856
Point of doubt.

706
00:34:57,956 --> 00:35:00,986
When I first learned about it, I was like, wait a minute, how do you

707
00:35:00,986 --> 00:35:02,536
actually create, like, I was suspicious.

708
00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:03,766
How do you actually do this?

709
00:35:04,696 --> 00:35:08,096
So that's where talking to the engineers was like, okay, like there

710
00:35:08,096 --> 00:35:09,816
is actually, they thought about this.

711
00:35:12,516 --> 00:35:18,186
So for me, the, the denial of the Seg two X hard fork was a, a, an important

712
00:35:18,246 --> 00:35:23,346
point because that's when I realized that holy shit, this really, really works.

713
00:35:23,346 --> 00:35:31,346
That like, that's the evidence I needed for, for this to be like full blown 100%.

714
00:35:31,466 --> 00:35:32,396
This is the thing.

715
00:35:32,401 --> 00:35:33,056
Yeah, yeah.

716
00:35:33,061 --> 00:35:34,766
To fight for this is the hill to die

717
00:35:34,766 --> 00:35:34,946
on.

718
00:35:35,366 --> 00:35:40,406
Like, and then that was why I think the year 2015 was so different from 2017.

719
00:35:40,411 --> 00:35:40,736
Yeah.

720
00:35:41,006 --> 00:35:41,486
Because.

721
00:35:41,896 --> 00:35:45,396
The year 2015, there was so much doubt about like, but what if we get an attack?

722
00:35:45,746 --> 00:35:46,486
Are we going to survive?

723
00:35:46,486 --> 00:35:49,234
And then 2017, we're like, man, like, we can do this.

724
00:35:49,234 --> 00:35:49,976
Yeah, we got this.

725
00:35:50,326 --> 00:35:50,636
Yeah,

726
00:35:50,696 --> 00:35:51,016
yeah.

727
00:35:51,686 --> 00:35:52,006
So.

728
00:35:53,186 --> 00:35:55,856
So, have you seen something similar?

729
00:35:56,426 --> 00:36:02,186
Similar in anything else to something similar to the Seg two X, hard fork denial

730
00:36:03,146 --> 00:36:06,656
, like that kind of proof of resilience

731
00:36:06,776 --> 00:36:08,786
in in literally anywhere else in the world?

732
00:36:08,816 --> 00:36:09,296
Yeah.

733
00:36:09,296 --> 00:36:13,501
Uh, Well, I haven't seen it in shitcoins and I don't think you have

734
00:36:13,501 --> 00:36:15,991
either, but, but in, in any, can you...

735
00:36:16,111 --> 00:36:16,951
That's a good question.

736
00:36:17,011 --> 00:36:18,311
Uh, that's a really good question.

737
00:36:19,422 --> 00:36:24,022
I was actually just listening to a podcast about a guy who was a big, big...

738
00:36:24,827 --> 00:36:30,227
LSD dealer in the 70s and he even sold like LSD to Steve Jobs and like, you

739
00:36:30,227 --> 00:36:35,897
know, and he was talking about how they would have 50 gallon jars full

740
00:36:35,917 --> 00:36:39,837
of LSD pills, like just enormous.

741
00:36:40,182 --> 00:36:44,712
Just oceans of this stuff was made and the shelf life was about five years and

742
00:36:44,722 --> 00:36:47,102
he remembered they were talking about it and like thinking like five years

743
00:36:47,102 --> 00:36:52,362
is forever and so their plan was they thought and he said later I believe I

744
00:36:52,732 --> 00:36:57,862
was wrong but they basically thought that using this chemical they could

745
00:36:57,962 --> 00:37:00,222
make everybody become peaceful, right?

746
00:37:00,382 --> 00:37:05,807
That was the hippie idea and that's why there's this story of um, you know, They

747
00:37:05,807 --> 00:37:08,397
were going to lace, um, Nixon's coffee.

748
00:37:08,397 --> 00:37:10,467
Like they were going to slip some LSD in there.

749
00:37:10,467 --> 00:37:12,637
But so he's saying like, that was our plan.

750
00:37:12,637 --> 00:37:15,657
Like we would just kind of, you know, LSD pill the world.

751
00:37:15,657 --> 00:37:17,927
We had so much supply, we could just do this.

752
00:37:18,537 --> 00:37:22,637
And, uh, and then he said, yeah, eventually I discovered that if someone

753
00:37:22,637 --> 00:37:25,117
who's in a certain kind of mindset.

754
00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:30,252
They just won't change, like they will have this experience of near

755
00:37:30,252 --> 00:37:33,462
death or ego death and then they will just kind of still say the same.

756
00:37:33,932 --> 00:37:38,622
Um, but so anyway, I'm just thinking out loud, you know, like is there maybe,

757
00:37:39,572 --> 00:37:44,302
maybe a parallel to where like, you know, that experience that we had was so...

758
00:37:46,297 --> 00:37:49,787
important that we, we think like, Oh, now we're good.

759
00:37:49,787 --> 00:37:50,067
Right.

760
00:37:50,067 --> 00:37:53,597
Whereas like in the seventies, like we created all this LSD, like we're winning.

761
00:37:53,677 --> 00:37:54,767
Like that's what they thought.

762
00:37:55,127 --> 00:37:59,147
And so I'm not saying that there's exact parallels here, but it's like,

763
00:37:59,177 --> 00:38:02,227
it's kind of the avenue where I would, I would want to think about,

764
00:38:02,227 --> 00:38:03,907
like, you know, are we that safe?

765
00:38:03,907 --> 00:38:09,167
And I, I just keep going back to trying to double check all the math, right.

766
00:38:09,167 --> 00:38:11,607
They're really trying to like, which I'm sure we're all doing right.

767
00:38:11,607 --> 00:38:12,947
If you're in Bitcoin, you're like.

768
00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:15,342
Am I having survivor bias?

769
00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:20,222
Like, do I feel like I'm invincible because I survived 10 years, or is this

770
00:38:20,222 --> 00:38:22,882
really as sustainable as I hope it is?

771
00:38:22,942 --> 00:38:23,762
Yeah, yeah.

772
00:38:24,222 --> 00:38:29,330
And that, like, that, LSD parallel, and especially the ego death.

773
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:30,180
Parallel.

774
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:37,420
Like the way I I view that is, uh, like since, since all Bitcoin all

775
00:38:37,420 --> 00:38:39,400
owning Bitcoin is, is keeping a secret.

776
00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:44,510
So like the, the first thought I had was, holy shit, if you, if you memorize

777
00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:46,400
your seed phrase, you are your bitcoins.

778
00:38:46,790 --> 00:38:50,270
If, if that seed phrase is nowhere else, but then when you think deeper

779
00:38:50,270 --> 00:38:53,680
about that, like, uh, all seed, all.

780
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,050
Everything that unlocking a Bitcoin is, is like someone keeping a secret.

781
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,650
So even if you have the seed phrase written down, if the attacker doesn't

782
00:39:03,650 --> 00:39:06,600
know what he's looking for, there's no way he knows, like it's just

783
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,900
words or it's just numbers or it's just ones and zeros and whatever.

784
00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:17,480
So, so viewed through that lens, all Bitcoins exist within people's heads.

785
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:23,510
And also the, all the nodes and all the miners that they're not really the

786
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:25,750
machines, they're the people who decide.

787
00:39:25,930 --> 00:39:31,840
To take the deliberate action of firing them up and running them, um, because

788
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,000
they require a human being to do that.

789
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,730
They, yeah, they, so it's, it's backed by human action and not energy in that sense.

790
00:39:40,140 --> 00:39:40,230
Yeah.

791
00:39:40,235 --> 00:39:45,300
And, and, and, uh, a computer, a minor, and Luke is laughing because

792
00:39:45,305 --> 00:39:51,820
he's heard this a quadrillion times, but, uh, uh, a minor, uh, all it

793
00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:54,250
does is guess a number and, uh, do.

794
00:39:54,735 --> 00:39:55,585
Mathematics.

795
00:39:56,135 --> 00:40:01,085
So a computer is just a fancy abacus that helps our, it's an extension of our minds.

796
00:40:01,175 --> 00:40:01,795
So it is us.

797
00:40:02,345 --> 00:40:03,555
It's, it's nothing but us.

798
00:40:04,505 --> 00:40:06,475
So, so the entire network is us.

799
00:40:06,525 --> 00:40:10,385
And I, I, this is how I see that it connects people on this, this

800
00:40:10,595 --> 00:40:14,215
profound level, like, because we are the same entity now.

801
00:40:15,005 --> 00:40:16,755
So, so that might be the.

802
00:40:17,090 --> 00:40:20,880
Like, ego death, LSD sort of thing.

803
00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:22,809
Like, do you think there's something to it?

804
00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:22,900
Like,

805
00:40:22,930 --> 00:40:24,630
we're all part of something bigger, right?

806
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:27,180
I mean, we are kind of, this is a new way to connect.

807
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:29,010
It's a way that didn't exist.

808
00:40:29,010 --> 00:40:30,360
A more profound way to...

809
00:40:30,670 --> 00:40:31,800
I think that's, I like that.

810
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,320
I think that's very true.

811
00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:34,430
Um...

812
00:40:34,925 --> 00:40:36,025
I like that a lot, yeah.

813
00:40:36,445 --> 00:40:41,205
And also, when you take into consideration the lowered time preference, so we,

814
00:40:41,645 --> 00:40:46,305
you know, to a large extent, value quality over quantity and all this,

815
00:40:46,445 --> 00:40:50,705
and saving and stuff, and we're also all, we all want Bitcoin to succeed,

816
00:40:50,735 --> 00:40:51,975
so we're incentivized to help.

817
00:40:52,055 --> 00:40:53,055
other bitcoiners.

818
00:40:53,095 --> 00:40:53,325
Yeah.

819
00:40:53,475 --> 00:40:58,075
So we're just, and you, I experienced this every day in this space that

820
00:40:58,075 --> 00:40:59,255
people are just awesome to one another.

821
00:40:59,765 --> 00:41:04,305
Like there's, there's no, there's no resistance to, the

822
00:41:04,315 --> 00:41:06,185
resistance is futile in a sense.

823
00:41:06,565 --> 00:41:11,075
Yeah, there's this virtual side of, um, uh, what do you call it?

824
00:41:11,085 --> 00:41:14,215
No, virtual, um, virtuous cycle.

825
00:41:14,435 --> 00:41:14,675
Yeah.

826
00:41:14,715 --> 00:41:15,715
Yeah, exactly.

827
00:41:15,935 --> 00:41:16,135
Yeah.

828
00:41:16,235 --> 00:41:19,795
And, and at the same time, maybe that's where I'm coming from is that I think

829
00:41:19,795 --> 00:41:25,605
that in order to, maintain the, where we're, you know, we're, we're doing

830
00:41:25,665 --> 00:41:28,385
good, but in order to maintain things.

831
00:41:29,245 --> 00:41:33,635
We need that productive paranoia, I think, where you have some vigilance of

832
00:41:33,635 --> 00:41:38,465
like, Hey, you know, you know, things, things are not guaranteed to go great.

833
00:41:38,525 --> 00:41:41,815
Cause then you can get into dogmatism and you can get into

834
00:41:41,815 --> 00:41:43,585
routine and then you get sloppy.

835
00:41:43,905 --> 00:41:44,915
And then what if we start...

836
00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:49,380
Oh, maybe it's not that important to always remember your secrets or, you

837
00:41:49,380 --> 00:41:53,340
know, you know, so and then people start custodying with a centralized

838
00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:56,830
custodian and, you know, so, so the vigilance, I think, is important.

839
00:41:57,110 --> 00:41:57,460
Yeah,

840
00:41:57,490 --> 00:42:03,190
but the way I see it, it's the vigilance that enables the trust between people.

841
00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:06,490
So ironically enough, the don't trust verify attitude of the

842
00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:10,860
hardcore core of this thing is enabling people on the outer layers.

843
00:42:11,025 --> 00:42:12,615
Just to trust one another more.

844
00:42:12,775 --> 00:42:13,755
Yeah, absolutely.

845
00:42:13,815 --> 00:42:15,615
And that's so weird because it's like...

846
00:42:15,955 --> 00:42:16,195
It's

847
00:42:16,195 --> 00:42:17,015
counterintuitive.

848
00:42:17,015 --> 00:42:17,525
Yeah, it is.

849
00:42:18,025 --> 00:42:22,935
Yeah, and I think I touched on a very related topic when today in

850
00:42:22,935 --> 00:42:25,995
my presentation I talked about, um, this is one of the other kind of...

851
00:42:26,060 --> 00:42:30,340
Foundational principles of order is that continuum between,

852
00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:33,630
um, diversity and consensus.

853
00:42:33,660 --> 00:42:38,350
So diversity means you're just, not only do you disagree, but you're entrenched in

854
00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:42,910
your disagreement and you start boycotting the other or you start attacking them.

855
00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:47,880
And then consensus is actually a situation where it doesn't mean you have to agree.

856
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,950
On the topics, but, um, there is a healthy debating culture, like

857
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,180
the Greeks, the ancient Greeks.

858
00:42:56,210 --> 00:42:57,320
We agree to disagree.

859
00:42:57,350 --> 00:42:57,660
Yes.

860
00:42:57,690 --> 00:43:01,230
And so, because that becomes the peaceful situation.

861
00:43:01,260 --> 00:43:02,240
Stalemate is fine.

862
00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:04,700
And we, in Bitcoin, we have to explain this all the time.

863
00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:09,640
People are like, yes, but my Bitcoin improvement proposal, it's important and

864
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,340
it's urgent and we need to do it now.

865
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,970
And then we say, I don't know, maybe not.

866
00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:16,030
Let's just wait.

867
00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:17,760
And then they're like, but, but, but.

868
00:43:17,790 --> 00:43:18,280
And so.

869
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,960
Even though there's this heated debate, there's no violence, there's no coercion.

870
00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:27,570
So it's totally, it's a very important overlooked thing in game theory.

871
00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:31,530
People think like, either you agree or you disagree, but you

872
00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:33,100
can also agree to disagree.

873
00:43:33,450 --> 00:43:36,550
And so it's such an important engine for peace, I think.

874
00:43:36,570 --> 00:43:37,760
It's argumentation ethics.

875
00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:39,080
Agreeing to disagree.

876
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:40,840
That's the basis of that.

877
00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:41,490
Yeah, I didn't think

878
00:43:41,490 --> 00:43:43,230
of that either.

879
00:43:43,230 --> 00:43:43,730
Exactly.

880
00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:45,690
We just reinvented our invention,

881
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:45,960
at least.

882
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,580
And by the way, I don't think you ever have actually said the phrase that

883
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,100
Bitcoin is backed by human action.

884
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:54,220
I don't think you've actually

885
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:54,290
said that.

886
00:43:54,290 --> 00:43:56,700
I think I've said that in a talk or something.

887
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:57,270
Not

888
00:43:57,830 --> 00:43:58,680
on the pod, though.

889
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,640
I don't remember you saying that while I was listening.

890
00:44:01,140 --> 00:44:03,360
That's what I was actually smiling about.

891
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,500
I think that's a really good...

892
00:44:05,965 --> 00:44:07,135
Way of framing it, right?

893
00:44:07,135 --> 00:44:07,405
Yep.

894
00:44:07,405 --> 00:44:10,765
That, that you have to have the human actions that, that, that, that trigger

895
00:44:10,765 --> 00:44:12,175
all of the things that make Bitcoin.

896
00:44:12,175 --> 00:44:13,315
I think that's really important.

897
00:44:13,315 --> 00:44:13,435
And

898
00:44:13,555 --> 00:44:16,165
of course, like human action requires energy.

899
00:44:16,255 --> 00:44:18,715
Like we are energy consuming creatures.

900
00:44:18,715 --> 00:44:21,565
So, so in that sense it's backed by energy, but more.

901
00:44:22,015 --> 00:44:25,375
By the energy in our foods, right?

902
00:44:25,385 --> 00:44:28,125
Than the electricity in the miners, in that sense,

903
00:44:28,255 --> 00:44:28,495
you know?

904
00:44:28,515 --> 00:44:32,645
And it's very synergistic, like how, uh, I don't know, like, we live

905
00:44:32,645 --> 00:44:34,835
synergistically with fire, for example.

906
00:44:34,845 --> 00:44:37,285
Like, it's happened for, you know, millions of years.

907
00:44:37,455 --> 00:44:41,095
And, and, and, and there's so many things that we...

908
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:44,810
Maybe take for granted, but they're actually not technically, physically

909
00:44:44,810 --> 00:44:48,450
in our bodies, that are in the outside world, but that are so intertwined with,

910
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,030
with our society and our lives, um, you know, sources of water, we're drinking

911
00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:58,430
water, like in a way we live in synergy with water, and so I think similarly,

912
00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:00,650
yeah, we, we live in synergy with Bitcoin.

913
00:45:01,374 --> 00:45:02,574
Wonderful phrase here.

914
00:45:02,574 --> 00:45:05,634
And, uh, now I kind of want to come, come to a different point here.

915
00:45:05,694 --> 00:45:09,014
Uh, the panel that you, that you had actually just now that, uh, yeah.

916
00:45:09,014 --> 00:45:10,194
That you wanted to write after.

917
00:45:10,494 --> 00:45:15,204
Uh, it, it had the provocatively bullish, uh, when, when 100 k basically.

918
00:45:15,504 --> 00:45:18,474
Uh, but I, I wanna know, do, do you see any threats to Bitcoin?

919
00:45:18,479 --> 00:45:20,456
Like what would be the biggest threat to Bitcoin that you,

920
00:45:20,514 --> 00:45:21,624
that you can think of right now?

921
00:45:21,944 --> 00:45:28,244
Yeah, I really tried to go over that in my last report, because I think

922
00:45:28,244 --> 00:45:32,324
it is always at the end of a bear market, people have a long list of

923
00:45:32,324 --> 00:45:34,374
like, here are all the bad things that are going to happen to Bitcoin.

924
00:45:34,654 --> 00:45:38,774
And so I wanted to take it seriously and go over, you know, go over some of the

925
00:45:38,774 --> 00:45:43,314
worst scenarios and, and And, and, and because that's ultimately what happens

926
00:45:43,314 --> 00:45:49,984
is that when you go into a bull market, um, slowly the worries are debunked.

927
00:45:50,004 --> 00:45:52,924
Like you start to realize like, oh, well, we don't actually don't need to

928
00:45:52,924 --> 00:45:54,154
worry about that, but what about this?

929
00:45:54,184 --> 00:45:57,094
And then you get the wall of worry where you get the, the sell offs

930
00:45:57,104 --> 00:45:59,854
and, and eventually in the long run, it's just all a big uptrend.

931
00:45:59,864 --> 00:46:02,824
But in the moment you're like, oh no, we're going back to

932
00:46:02,824 --> 00:46:04,264
where we started or, or lower.

933
00:46:04,284 --> 00:46:08,934
Um, so, so in terms of biggest threats to Bitcoin, I think.

934
00:46:09,954 --> 00:46:14,464
I think Binance going bust is a pretty big one, um, as, as

935
00:46:14,464 --> 00:46:15,644
a, as a potential scenario.

936
00:46:15,644 --> 00:46:15,844
Wait, what?

937
00:46:15,954 --> 00:46:16,674
Long term?

938
00:46:17,354 --> 00:46:17,684
No, no, no.

939
00:46:17,684 --> 00:46:18,204
Oh, sorry.

940
00:46:18,214 --> 00:46:18,884
You mean long term?

941
00:46:18,884 --> 00:46:20,134
I thought I meant for this cycle.

942
00:46:20,134 --> 00:46:21,274
Oh, I definitely meant long term.

943
00:46:21,284 --> 00:46:22,264
Oh, I see, I see.

944
00:46:23,534 --> 00:46:27,384
Because I think long term, it's a necessity.

945
00:46:27,464 --> 00:46:28,284
Oh, yeah,

946
00:46:28,284 --> 00:46:28,584
yeah, yeah.

947
00:46:28,634 --> 00:46:29,034
Creative

948
00:46:29,034 --> 00:46:29,694
destruction, right?

949
00:46:29,694 --> 00:46:30,134
Yeah, of course.

950
00:46:30,484 --> 00:46:32,874
It's the great shitcoin purge.

951
00:46:33,174 --> 00:46:33,434
Yeah.

952
00:46:33,594 --> 00:46:34,464
No, absolutely.

953
00:46:34,474 --> 00:46:35,304
That's continuously happening.

954
00:46:35,709 --> 00:46:35,939
Yeah,

955
00:46:35,939 --> 00:46:36,419
no, no, no.

956
00:46:36,649 --> 00:46:38,429
No, we're totally on the same page.

957
00:46:38,939 --> 00:46:43,889
Long term, the biggest threats, I mean, in line with what you're saying, right,

958
00:46:43,889 --> 00:46:48,159
if Bitcoin is backed by human action, then complacency is the biggest risk, where we

959
00:46:48,349 --> 00:46:55,049
forget about the values, forget about what standards we have to hold up, for example,

960
00:46:55,399 --> 00:46:57,629
if all of us forgot how to apply rules.

961
00:46:58,549 --> 00:46:59,699
How electricity works.

962
00:46:59,729 --> 00:47:01,619
Literally, all humanity had amnesia.

963
00:47:01,619 --> 00:47:03,219
We don't, we forget how electricity

964
00:47:03,219 --> 00:47:03,459
works.

965
00:47:03,459 --> 00:47:04,179
That sort of happened

966
00:47:04,179 --> 00:47:04,799
here in Europe.

967
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:06,959
Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, right?

968
00:47:07,029 --> 00:47:09,939
I mean, so then, then the infrastructure would start to crumble.

969
00:47:09,949 --> 00:47:11,489
Like the machines don't work on their own.

970
00:47:11,499 --> 00:47:13,089
We need to understand this.

971
00:47:13,399 --> 00:47:13,979
Yeah, yeah.

972
00:47:14,019 --> 00:47:17,019
So to me, that's, that's always been the biggest, uh, the biggest one.

973
00:47:17,379 --> 00:47:17,799
All right.

974
00:47:17,839 --> 00:47:20,959
I'm going to go, uh, down one of my little rabbit holes for a second.

975
00:47:20,959 --> 00:47:24,999
And Knut's smiling because I, I do this every once in the Vikings.

976
00:47:25,409 --> 00:47:26,789
Well, no, not this time.

977
00:47:26,789 --> 00:47:27,459
The Egyptians.

978
00:47:27,524 --> 00:47:34,054
So, so, so I, I am a big fan of the idea that, that, uh, there, there was a

979
00:47:34,064 --> 00:47:40,264
civilization, uh, long before civilization theoretically was like, um, 11, 600 years

980
00:47:40,264 --> 00:47:44,974
ago, younger Dryas, uh, impact hypothesis that a comet came down and basically

981
00:47:44,974 --> 00:47:48,714
ended something in civilization that there's Plenty of evidence for that.

982
00:47:48,774 --> 00:47:52,254
And the, the result and, and I'll, my, the, the source

983
00:47:52,254 --> 00:47:53,874
I'll give here briefly Sure.

984
00:47:53,874 --> 00:47:54,954
Is, is Graham Hancock.

985
00:47:54,984 --> 00:47:55,614
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

986
00:47:55,614 --> 00:47:59,274
The, the fingerprints of the gods, uh, magicians of the Gods American

987
00:47:59,274 --> 00:48:02,484
before Great books to, to check out on this topic, but the, the point,

988
00:48:02,754 --> 00:48:04,194
the thrust of also now on Netflix.

989
00:48:04,194 --> 00:48:05,094
Right, exactly.

990
00:48:05,574 --> 00:48:06,624
Uh, ancient apocalypse.

991
00:48:06,624 --> 00:48:06,774
Yeah.

992
00:48:06,774 --> 00:48:06,984
Yeah.

993
00:48:06,984 --> 00:48:07,434
Very good.

994
00:48:07,434 --> 00:48:08,874
So, so, so the, the.

995
00:48:08,939 --> 00:48:13,459
The point though is that, his point is that we are a society with amnesia, that

996
00:48:13,859 --> 00:48:22,049
this actually happened to us, that the, we don't know necessarily what this society

997
00:48:22,049 --> 00:48:24,074
was capable of, but we have some of it.

998
00:48:24,274 --> 00:48:27,594
evidence of it and these massive monuments such as the pyramids and

999
00:48:27,814 --> 00:48:31,834
and other, uh, other things that we're starting to find that are vastly old.

1000
00:48:32,754 --> 00:48:36,684
These are the, the bits of evidence and it's not to say aliens did stuff

1001
00:48:36,684 --> 00:48:41,199
like that, it's to say humanity was capable of, of Extraordinary things.

1002
00:48:41,299 --> 00:48:44,529
And so this is just to bring it back to the complacency point.

1003
00:48:44,529 --> 00:48:44,879
Yeah.

1004
00:48:45,099 --> 00:48:45,139
So,

1005
00:48:45,149 --> 00:48:51,169
yeah, it's so interesting, you know, and this is related to your general point I

1006
00:48:51,179 --> 00:48:54,909
just read and I don't know how credible it is, but apparently there's new, a new

1007
00:48:54,909 --> 00:49:00,589
research paper coming out arguing based on just DNA evidence of human beings that,

1008
00:49:00,589 --> 00:49:05,349
and this is a longer time frame, but that about 800, 000 years ago, the, the, the

1009
00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:08,399
human population pool shrank to about.

1010
00:49:08,444 --> 00:49:12,504
1, 200 individuals and it stayed there for like a hundred thousand years.

1011
00:49:12,534 --> 00:49:13,874
Insane, right?

1012
00:49:13,874 --> 00:49:15,264
And so we're all inbred.

1013
00:49:15,884 --> 00:49:17,004
Well, yeah, I guess.

1014
00:49:17,404 --> 00:49:17,644
Yeah.

1015
00:49:17,644 --> 00:49:19,224
Who knows how we got out of there?

1016
00:49:19,514 --> 00:49:23,114
Um, but also how much amnesia must they have had?

1017
00:49:23,114 --> 00:49:26,974
Like, imagine if humanity shrank to a thousand, this is only so

1018
00:49:26,984 --> 00:49:28,184
much information you can hold.

1019
00:49:28,184 --> 00:49:33,104
And so, yeah, I, I, I like the, you know, Younger Drives impact type, a little, I

1020
00:49:33,104 --> 00:49:35,204
mean, amateur as I am about this stuff.

1021
00:49:35,534 --> 00:49:41,384
Um, uh, to me, the most compelling is the, I like watching the Ancient Architects

1022
00:49:41,384 --> 00:49:43,234
channel on YouTube, the British guy.

1023
00:49:43,274 --> 00:49:44,144
I think he's British.

1024
00:49:44,584 --> 00:49:48,794
Um, and uh, just, you know, I forget there's also this Australian

1025
00:49:48,794 --> 00:49:51,014
researcher who often travels to Egypt.

1026
00:49:51,014 --> 00:49:51,634
Uncharted X.

1027
00:49:52,134 --> 00:49:54,014
I forget his name actually, but yeah.

1028
00:49:54,014 --> 00:49:54,194
Yeah,

1029
00:49:54,194 --> 00:49:54,674
that guy.

1030
00:49:54,934 --> 00:49:57,554
You know, I think it's really compelling when he talks about

1031
00:49:58,434 --> 00:50:00,454
how this stuff was actually made.

1032
00:50:00,454 --> 00:50:04,474
Like, you know, lifting these enormous stones inside the pyramids.

1033
00:50:04,904 --> 00:50:08,174
Uh, and then like how this, uh, what is it, alabaster?

1034
00:50:08,194 --> 00:50:09,014
How, how all that is.

1035
00:50:09,144 --> 00:50:11,244
Carved with this incredible precision.

1036
00:50:11,624 --> 00:50:15,994
Um, and then these like, uh, these simple bowls that they find, right?

1037
00:50:15,994 --> 00:50:20,434
And you try and you analyze and it's incredibly symmetrical and it has,

1038
00:50:20,844 --> 00:50:23,964
not only is it like symmetrical, but then it has perfect handles on them.

1039
00:50:24,344 --> 00:50:27,889
And this is in like a very brittle Extremely hard material.

1040
00:50:27,889 --> 00:50:29,899
Like basically stuff they cannot replicate today.

1041
00:50:29,909 --> 00:50:32,209
Like to me, that's already evidence of amnesia, right?

1042
00:50:32,209 --> 00:50:36,129
If we find something we can't replicate, well, we must've forgotten, you know?

1043
00:50:36,129 --> 00:50:40,049
And then, I mean, there was also the more like mainstream accepted stories

1044
00:50:40,049 --> 00:50:43,509
of like, Oh, the Greeks, they had the, uh, I think it was the, maybe the

1045
00:50:43,509 --> 00:50:46,559
Romans, they invented like the steam engine and then they just shelved it.

1046
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:47,829
And, you know, so I think it happens.

1047
00:50:48,119 --> 00:50:51,229
Like, I think the big thing I actually have been wondering,

1048
00:50:51,229 --> 00:50:53,529
like that Graham Hancock theory.

1049
00:50:54,329 --> 00:50:56,999
Even regardless of if it's true or not, but it's compelling.

1050
00:50:57,309 --> 00:51:00,499
It's now hitting the mainstream like Netflix and places like that.

1051
00:51:00,979 --> 00:51:05,209
I think it's kind of breaking the idea that, that of progressivism.

1052
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:06,329
Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1053
00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:07,789
Things always get better.

1054
00:51:07,799 --> 00:51:10,719
Therefore, we just listen to the politicians because

1055
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,109
they know what we need to do.

1056
00:51:12,109 --> 00:51:15,639
We're just going to follow because who's talking about a cliff?

1057
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:16,909
We can never fall off a cliff.

1058
00:51:17,479 --> 00:51:18,909
And all of a sudden we have COVID.

1059
00:51:18,919 --> 00:51:20,269
All of a sudden we have inflation.

1060
00:51:20,609 --> 00:51:22,129
And here's this guy saying that.

1061
00:51:22,379 --> 00:51:24,889
You know, we had an amazing culture and it went to shit.

1062
00:51:24,899 --> 00:51:27,639
Like, you know, maybe we need to rethink some things.

1063
00:51:27,809 --> 00:51:27,909
I

1064
00:51:27,909 --> 00:51:32,359
think the amnesia is you don't need to rewind the clock 8, 000 years.

1065
00:51:32,429 --> 00:51:36,859
I mean, amnesia in society happens all the time.

1066
00:51:36,859 --> 00:51:38,989
Like, uh, like Austrian theory.

1067
00:51:38,999 --> 00:51:41,499
Sorry, but like Rahim, for example, like he's the last.

1068
00:51:41,634 --> 00:51:43,134
Austrian, Austrian economy.

1069
00:51:43,914 --> 00:51:45,774
Like Austria forgot about economics.

1070
00:51:45,974 --> 00:51:46,354
Yeah.

1071
00:51:46,354 --> 00:51:52,954
And not only that, but Marxist policies, policies get voted in over and over

1072
00:51:52,954 --> 00:51:59,184
again everywhere, even though they've been like debunked for years and like,

1073
00:51:59,214 --> 00:52:00,954
does anyone remember the lockdowns?

1074
00:52:01,024 --> 00:52:04,684
It seems like there's a big dose of amnesia going on there.

1075
00:52:04,694 --> 00:52:06,624
Like it seems like people for.

1076
00:52:06,969 --> 00:52:07,479
Forget.

1077
00:52:07,479 --> 00:52:08,139
So, yeah.

1078
00:52:08,169 --> 00:52:09,099
Quickly what, yeah.

1079
00:52:09,219 --> 00:52:15,639
What led up to all of these things like, and where the, where the, uh, where

1080
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:17,589
the enemy is and what the enemy is.

1081
00:52:17,739 --> 00:52:21,789
I think it's part of why I'm like a really big believer in, in, um,

1082
00:52:22,449 --> 00:52:27,049
um, Mental health, like education and the pursuit of mental health.

1083
00:52:27,049 --> 00:52:31,019
Cause I think a really huge driver for why people forget

1084
00:52:31,359 --> 00:52:32,899
is they just get overwhelmed.

1085
00:52:32,939 --> 00:52:36,719
They just cannot control the emotions that come up when they think about

1086
00:52:36,939 --> 00:52:40,029
what it was like, or what, you know, what was impacting their

1087
00:52:40,029 --> 00:52:41,959
life or how, how things changed.

1088
00:52:41,999 --> 00:52:45,099
And, um, and, uh, and, and oftentimes people.

1089
00:52:45,524 --> 00:52:48,404
People go to crazy lengths to avoid feeling ashamed.

1090
00:52:48,534 --> 00:52:51,754
You know, why did, you know, all the policies that Russia is doing, for

1091
00:52:51,754 --> 00:52:55,344
example, a lot of it is to protect the national honor and, you know, prevent,

1092
00:52:55,664 --> 00:53:00,634
you know, if you think about the, um, the, the humiliation that happened

1093
00:53:00,644 --> 00:53:04,164
around the first world war and like, you know, the, the reparation payments

1094
00:53:04,164 --> 00:53:09,014
and like, so it's weirdly Crazy things happened because of simple emotions.

1095
00:53:09,014 --> 00:53:12,044
Anyway, so it was a, that's a different rabbit hole, but I just No, it was very

1096
00:53:12,044 --> 00:53:17,594
interesting, like the, yeah, I, and I think that's, you know about

1097
00:53:17,594 --> 00:53:21,764
this Belgian, um, psychologist, ma Mathias Desme, I think is his name.

1098
00:53:21,764 --> 00:53:22,304
Oh, I'm not familiar.

1099
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:22,394
No.

1100
00:53:22,424 --> 00:53:25,754
Uh, yeah, he was, he had a, a, a big rise to fame during covid.

1101
00:53:25,759 --> 00:53:30,344
He talked about mice mass psychosis and mass for, he didn't call it that because

1102
00:53:30,344 --> 00:53:34,365
it's sort of a triggery word, but mass formation, I think is the word he used.

1103
00:53:35,049 --> 00:53:41,169
And how, how humans in a flock behave a certain way and when, when something

1104
00:53:41,169 --> 00:53:47,309
becomes a virtue signaling mechanism, like following, like I'm doing my part,

1105
00:53:47,649 --> 00:53:54,234
the, the Starship Troopers thing, like, uh, when you've, um, so, so during a.

1106
00:53:55,224 --> 00:54:01,824
During the lockdowns, uh, the further into those years we got, the weirder the rules

1107
00:54:01,854 --> 00:54:05,384
got, and the more often they changed.

1108
00:54:05,534 --> 00:54:10,334
So it became a virtue mechanism to know the most recent rule and follow that.

1109
00:54:10,334 --> 00:54:11,044
Yeah, exactly.

1110
00:54:11,044 --> 00:54:12,414
And I'm playing my part, you know?

1111
00:54:13,894 --> 00:54:19,354
And how societies get out of that is like, well, humor plays a big role.

1112
00:54:19,354 --> 00:54:23,134
Like, if you ridicule people for doing stuff, then all of a sudden...

1113
00:54:23,459 --> 00:54:26,649
People seem to wake up of it and it just disappears, just like

1114
00:54:26,649 --> 00:54:28,559
the East Block here in Europe.

1115
00:54:28,739 --> 00:54:34,019
It sort of disappeared overnight, almost, in comparison to like the Roman Empire.

1116
00:54:34,029 --> 00:54:38,579
So, yeah, I think there's a lot to be learned from like

1117
00:54:38,589 --> 00:54:40,269
group psychology in that sense.

1118
00:54:40,579 --> 00:54:43,439
Yeah, I remember my parents telling me that they were like

1119
00:54:43,499 --> 00:54:45,739
celebrating, I think this is 20, hmm.

1120
00:54:46,314 --> 00:54:47,024
2020 maybe?

1121
00:54:47,034 --> 00:54:49,854
I think they were celebrating, they were definitely celebrating um,

1122
00:54:49,864 --> 00:54:53,504
New Year's Eve and one of their friends had to go home before

1123
00:54:53,504 --> 00:54:55,154
midnight because there was a curfew.

1124
00:54:56,014 --> 00:54:57,054
Like insane, right?

1125
00:54:57,054 --> 00:55:00,834
They were not allowed to go on the street before midnight, even on New Year's Eve.

1126
00:55:01,489 --> 00:55:05,319
Just crazy stuff, like how does it even make sense to have an

1127
00:55:06,019 --> 00:55:08,609
outdoor curfew, it's absurd, right?

1128
00:55:08,669 --> 00:55:09,779
Total absurdity.

1129
00:55:10,129 --> 00:55:15,439
Yeah, and I guess, I want to learn more about, yeah, mob mentality, there's

1130
00:55:15,449 --> 00:55:17,619
a little book that I remember, um.

1131
00:55:18,304 --> 00:55:18,814
Reading.

1132
00:55:18,814 --> 00:55:21,114
I don't think I read the whole thing, but it was fascinating.

1133
00:55:21,114 --> 00:55:24,534
Written by Boris Sidis or Sidis.

1134
00:55:24,644 --> 00:55:28,794
He was the father of William James Sidis and, um, and William James was

1135
00:55:28,794 --> 00:55:33,564
like, uh, one of the, the, the real famous prodigy children back in the,

1136
00:55:33,914 --> 00:55:38,089
the same time of, um, um, Uh, William James, the psychologist, actually,

1137
00:55:38,099 --> 00:55:41,559
because this William James, the prodigy, was named after the friend

1138
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:44,029
of his father, uh, the psychologist.

1139
00:55:44,059 --> 00:55:51,129
So, anyway, so Boris Tsidis was, uh, grew up in Russia, and, uh, he was, uh, sent, I

1140
00:55:51,129 --> 00:55:55,569
believe, either to prison or to the Gulag, uh, for three years because he had...

1141
00:55:56,119 --> 00:55:58,289
uh, taught some farmers how to read and write.

1142
00:55:58,489 --> 00:56:00,049
Like, that was his crime in Russia.

1143
00:56:00,479 --> 00:56:04,869
And, uh, and so he then later was a very passionate psychologist and he

1144
00:56:04,869 --> 00:56:08,569
wrote about the psychology of the mob because he had witnessed it so often.

1145
00:56:08,999 --> 00:56:12,459
Uh, and, and just really writing about how dangerous it is, you know, when

1146
00:56:12,459 --> 00:56:14,209
people get whipped into a frenzy.

1147
00:56:14,449 --> 00:56:19,279
And then you have, you write that virtual signaling or it's almost like, and you

1148
00:56:19,319 --> 00:56:24,749
see it in cults as well, where, where it's almost like You know the environment is

1149
00:56:24,749 --> 00:56:30,909
crazy, you know that somebody is going to pay, there's going to be a punishment,

1150
00:56:31,029 --> 00:56:35,969
somebody is going to be made the example, and you want to not be at the bottom, so

1151
00:56:35,969 --> 00:56:39,869
you want to be the one running away from the bear that's a little bit farther away,

1152
00:56:39,869 --> 00:56:43,899
and so you just, in North Korea, you see it, right, where there's somebody dies

1153
00:56:43,899 --> 00:56:47,969
and everybody's trying their best to cry the hardest, because the one who cries

1154
00:56:47,989 --> 00:56:51,799
the least, even if it's already crazy, they're going to get in trouble, so yeah.

1155
00:56:52,229 --> 00:56:52,559
www.

1156
00:56:53,549 --> 00:56:54,259
Insanity.

1157
00:56:54,269 --> 00:56:54,289
Yeah.

1158
00:56:55,119 --> 00:56:55,619
Absolute

1159
00:56:55,689 --> 00:56:56,379
insanity.

1160
00:56:56,429 --> 00:56:56,959
And it was

1161
00:56:56,999 --> 00:56:59,499
so, wasn't it surreal to witness it in real time?

1162
00:56:59,539 --> 00:56:59,989
Yeah.

1163
00:57:00,099 --> 00:57:00,289
It

1164
00:57:00,299 --> 00:57:00,489
was.

1165
00:57:00,489 --> 00:57:01,649
I've never in my life seen that.

1166
00:57:01,649 --> 00:57:07,139
And like, it's a reminder that, uh, it's, it's never safe with humans.

1167
00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:12,219
Like the, we, uh, complete craziness can happen at any point, like, and

1168
00:57:12,219 --> 00:57:16,319
it's, it made you, makes you more vigilant and pick up on these little...

1169
00:57:17,899 --> 00:57:22,059
And, uh, I recently read the white pill by Michael Malice.

1170
00:57:23,959 --> 00:57:27,409
It's about the, the Soviet, the history of the Soviet Union, basically.

1171
00:57:27,839 --> 00:57:32,719
And, uh, um, in that there, there are examples of, of people who committed

1172
00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:39,529
crimes in, in, In late Soviet, late Soviet era, that knew that they

1173
00:57:39,529 --> 00:57:43,419
were innocent, but that willingly went to the gulags anyway, because

1174
00:57:43,419 --> 00:57:44,839
they wanted to defend the system.

1175
00:57:44,959 --> 00:57:51,129
And like, so, so, so, so deeply entrenched into their minds that, that the system

1176
00:57:51,129 --> 00:57:52,719
was the important thing to uphold.

1177
00:57:52,899 --> 00:57:53,239
Wait, wait, so,

1178
00:57:53,819 --> 00:57:54,649
I don't

1179
00:57:54,649 --> 00:57:54,929
follow.

1180
00:57:54,929 --> 00:57:55,589
It's like...

1181
00:57:55,789 --> 00:58:00,679
Ultimate collectivism, when you, you, you know that you're innocent, but you play

1182
00:58:00,679 --> 00:58:03,419
along anyway, because the system says so.

1183
00:58:03,919 --> 00:58:04,656
It's a lot of practice.

1184
00:58:04,656 --> 00:58:05,489
It was a series of crimes,

1185
00:58:05,489 --> 00:58:08,629
they were accused, but they didn't do it, but they just went along with it.

1186
00:58:08,659 --> 00:58:08,949
Yeah.

1187
00:58:09,209 --> 00:58:12,329
And, and, and it was, but they were accused, but could they...

1188
00:58:12,914 --> 00:58:15,184
Was it even an option to defend themselves?

1189
00:58:16,164 --> 00:58:20,884
Uh, yeah, okay, this is from memory and according to the book.

1190
00:58:20,884 --> 00:58:24,164
But there were obvious cases where they could have just said, no, look

1191
00:58:24,164 --> 00:58:25,624
at this evidence, I didn't do this.

1192
00:58:25,744 --> 00:58:29,904
But it was futile to a certain extent.

1193
00:58:29,954 --> 00:58:34,874
But still, just having a chance of not getting into the gulag would be...

1194
00:58:36,254 --> 00:58:37,074
Wow, yeah,

1195
00:58:37,074 --> 00:58:41,614
really, like, it's like the frog jumping back in the pot or something.

1196
00:58:41,614 --> 00:58:42,064
Yeah, yeah.

1197
00:58:42,624 --> 00:58:45,064
Yeah, wow, hmm.

1198
00:58:45,804 --> 00:58:50,624
So what can we do to avoid this complacency, this scenario?

1199
00:58:50,634 --> 00:58:51,144
We're doing

1200
00:58:51,144 --> 00:58:51,734
it right now.

1201
00:58:52,434 --> 00:58:55,894
I, you know, I think this is really important to, you know, just keep,

1202
00:58:55,924 --> 00:59:01,784
um, remembering the past, talking about Just universal, immutable

1203
00:59:02,404 --> 00:59:05,434
principles, trying to, trying to be vigilant there too, where you don't

1204
00:59:05,434 --> 00:59:08,954
get stuck in being complacent and just assuming, you know, always go back,

1205
00:59:09,254 --> 00:59:11,374
do the math again, go over the proofs.

1206
00:59:11,704 --> 00:59:15,634
Um, yeah, I, I believe a lot in interdisciplinarity.

1207
00:59:15,674 --> 00:59:18,894
I really believe that, you know, that, that we can build bridges between,

1208
00:59:19,154 --> 00:59:23,789
and, because in a way, Science, in the broadest sense, has gotten very

1209
00:59:23,789 --> 00:59:28,569
fragmented because of how everything is subsidized and become bureaucratic.

1210
00:59:28,569 --> 00:59:32,419
And so I think there's this great project where we can bring things back

1211
00:59:32,419 --> 00:59:35,909
together in a more unified way and, um...

1212
00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:40,949
And so that more people can become part of this conversation, like there were times

1213
00:59:40,949 --> 00:59:44,709
in history where, like I mean, even the ancient Greeks, like we, now what we find

1214
00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:48,769
back is like about 1 percent of the stuff they actually produced, with in terms of

1215
00:59:48,769 --> 00:59:53,899
plays and books and all that, and even with that, this overwhelming evidence

1216
00:59:53,959 --> 00:59:59,344
that, The percentage of intellectuals, the percentage of people who really were

1217
00:59:59,524 --> 01:00:05,684
very aware and, and engaged and, and, and just brilliant was incredibly high.

1218
01:00:05,704 --> 01:00:08,394
And these people didn't have different genetics than we do.

1219
01:00:08,774 --> 01:00:12,724
So it is possible to just have much more, a much higher percentage of the

1220
01:00:12,724 --> 01:00:17,624
population get like alive and activated and be part of that great discussion.

1221
01:00:17,994 --> 01:00:21,484
And so, yeah, it's like we're, we got to keep the flame alive.

1222
01:00:21,484 --> 01:00:21,634
Right.

1223
01:00:21,634 --> 01:00:21,884
I mean,

1224
01:00:21,894 --> 01:00:22,424
absolutely.

1225
01:00:22,879 --> 01:00:23,209
Yeah.

1226
01:00:23,249 --> 01:00:24,579
So you heard it from the man.

1227
01:00:24,609 --> 01:00:28,879
If, uh, so if you want to avoid Armageddon, don't forget to

1228
01:00:28,889 --> 01:00:31,829
like, subscribe, click the bell for notification, brush your

1229
01:00:31,849 --> 01:00:33,169
teeth and all that, you know?

1230
01:00:33,289 --> 01:00:33,909
Exactly.

1231
01:00:34,019 --> 01:00:34,389
Amen.

1232
01:01:35,408 --> 01:01:35,698
Thanks.

1233
01:01:35,698 --> 01:01:38,518
I think this, I think this is a good.

1234
01:01:38,548 --> 01:01:42,498
Just thought to maybe tie this one off, but can you tell our, our viewers

1235
01:01:42,498 --> 01:01:45,418
and listeners where they can find you and what you're up to these days

1236
01:01:45,908 --> 01:01:46,398
and that sort of thing?

1237
01:01:46,398 --> 01:01:48,868
Yeah, I would say just Google my name, Thurde Meester.

1238
01:01:48,868 --> 01:01:52,578
Um, it's a bit of a weird name, but, um, just do that and

1239
01:01:52,578 --> 01:01:53,878
you'll see my Twitter account.

1240
01:01:54,068 --> 01:01:54,948
We like weird names.

1241
01:01:54,968 --> 01:01:57,158
Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1242
01:01:57,698 --> 01:01:59,908
Uh, my last name has four E's in it.

1243
01:01:59,948 --> 01:02:04,078
Anyway, uh, but so my, my company is adamantresearch, A

1244
01:02:04,078 --> 01:02:06,818
D A M A N T, adamantresearch.

1245
01:02:06,818 --> 01:02:07,168
com.

1246
01:02:07,168 --> 01:02:12,208
So if you go there, you'll see an archive of all my, uh, my reports

1247
01:02:12,208 --> 01:02:17,658
going back to 2012 and also a link to my latest, which is free, it's called

1248
01:02:17,658 --> 01:02:19,768
How to Position for the Bitcoin Boom.

1249
01:02:20,113 --> 01:02:24,663
20 pages, very dense, and it's literally what I sent to my own friends and family.

1250
01:02:24,683 --> 01:02:24,983
Yeah.

1251
01:02:25,463 --> 01:02:26,133
Fantastic.

1252
01:02:26,773 --> 01:02:29,013
Thank you very much for a very good conversation.

1253
01:02:29,433 --> 01:02:29,733
Yeah.

1254
01:02:29,733 --> 01:02:31,313
And good luck with everything.

1255
01:02:31,623 --> 01:02:32,093
Thank you.

1256
01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:34,760
So, what did you think of that episode with TOR?

1257
01:02:35,180 --> 01:02:36,930
I always enjoy digging into big topics.

1258
01:02:37,050 --> 01:02:40,400
The importance of avoiding complacency is my biggest takeaway from this one.

1259
01:02:40,460 --> 01:02:41,160
What was yours?

1260
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:42,120
Let us know.

1261
01:02:42,332 --> 01:02:45,222
You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube,

1262
01:02:45,232 --> 01:02:46,882
or get in touch on Noster or Twitter.

1263
01:02:47,282 --> 01:02:49,422
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode

1264
01:02:49,422 --> 01:02:50,562
and subscribe to the channel.

1265
01:02:50,942 --> 01:02:54,072
Our show's sponsors are Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, The

1266
01:02:54,072 --> 01:02:56,542
Bitcoin Way, Zelox, and Bitcoinbook.

1267
01:02:56,542 --> 01:02:56,862
shop.

1268
01:02:57,302 --> 01:02:58,862
Check out their details in the description.

1269
01:02:59,432 --> 01:03:00,262
That's all for now.

1270
01:03:00,652 --> 01:03:03,082
See you next time, and thanks for listening.