I got into Bitcoin
first of all
because of politics.
I saw Bitcoin
as a political instrument
to destroy the state.
Bitcoin allows us to achieve
similar ends,
which is a complete
to restructuring
of the state
and political order.
And all we have to do
is basically run
these little computers
and like download
these apps on our phones.
It's beautiful.
In my office,
I have a gigantic metal frame
with two words,
which is destroy Fiat.
That's the mission.
The mission is to destroy
fiat.
Was Bitcoin an invention
or a discovery?
My contention is that
Bitcoin was invented.
I see Satoshi's genius
as being the person
that created
all the components
and made them come together.
Like an engineer
who was designing a motor.
The underlying principles
of like a motor,
like thermal dynamics
were discovered,
but the motor itself
was created and engineered.
Bitcoin does not exist
in nature.
It's definitely like
a manmade phenomenon.
The stupidest argument to me
that you shouldn't
spend Bitcoin.
Oh really?
What should I spend
fiat if I shouldn't
spend bitcoin?
Because Bitcoin
is going to be worth
more in the future.
Why the f*** should I
be holding Fiat
in the first place?
People think money
is the root of all evil
when it's actually
the other way around.
Evil is the root of all money
except bitcoin.
Francis, welcome to
the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
Thanks, man.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah I'm very happy
to have you here.
Unfortunately,
Luke is not with us
here at the beginning.
I hope Luke can join later,
but right now, it's
just you and me.
And we've been waiting
to do this for a long time.
I'm so happy
to have you here.
So let's let's start
for our listeners
that don't know you,
can you give us,
a tldr on Francis
and what you're doing now
and how you ended up there?
Yeah. Well, I'm,
bitcoin og quote unquote.
I've been working
in Bitcoin for, 12 years now.
I've been doing many things
in my bitcoin career,
but the last ten
years I've been, focused on,
self-custody
tools for,
sovereign individuals.
That's kind of like my,
my focus in Bitcoin
is to facilitate,
sovereignty and,
by creating software,
by creating apps.
And the most known app of
that is the Bitcoin exchange,
which is,
a Bitcoin
only non-custodial exchange.
And what a
non-custodial exchange
is, is basically
when you buy Bitcoin,
you can't leave it there.
You actually have to
give like a lightning address
or a bitcoin address
before you buy.
Like there's just no option
to leave it on the platform.
So 100% of
every Bitcoin purchase
is also a withdrawal.
So kind of forcing
people to take custody.
And I also work
on a lot of open source
software initiatives.
That's been my my passion
for the last couple of years.
I built a non-custodial,
bitcoin wallet,
the Bitcoin wallet.
I work on back
end infrastructure.
So my background is more of,
like an economics
policy type guy originally,
but over the years,
I kind of gradually went into
the software
and business and
app development
side of the coin.
And I think if I'm correct me
if I'm wrong, but,
just as Luke,
you're a refugee
from the People's
Republic of Canada
also, right?
They have, yeah.
Fled the communism
over there.
Yeah. Right.
That's
that's a very big
part of my story.
So I was born in Montreal.
I was,
Quebecer,
for most of my life,
and actually in Montreal,
we had a physical,
Bitcoin community center
called the Bitcoin Embassy.
That was great
from 2013 to 2017.
So, I was really
like Montreal.
Like, I love the city,
but I decided to leave,
during Covid.
You know, it was pretty
bad in, in Quebec
and living in a big city
in, in, like,
Montreal is really awful.
So I left Canada
for, Costa Rica, where,
completely coincidentally,
I hooked up with this,
local group of Bitcoiners.
Well, not coincidentally,
because you know how
you know
how these things got right.
So, you know,
you move to a new place,
and like,
I was telling myself,
okay, I'm going to.
I'm going to stay low profile
this time.
I don't want people
to recognize me.
I don't want to be
a Bitcoin guy.
And then after
like a few months, I'm like,
I'm organizing
a Bitcoin meetup.
Fuck this, you know?
And like,
where is all the bitcoiners?
I want to see my people.
So we organized
a Bitcoin meetup
and then
I moved to this place
called the Bitcoin Jungle.
And here there is,
a really, really incredible
Bitcoin circular
economy project. I think that
a lot of people have
seen some of my videos.
There's there's like
a lot of videos of,
you know, people
going around Costa Rica
like buying stuff
at the farmers market.
But the scale of of
it is hard to comprehend
where like,
I don't use fiat,
I really don't use my credit
card, almost never ever.
And I also don't use cash.
I use bitcoin, everywhere
throughout the country.
So we have a physical office
here for, Bitcoin education.
And so that's
also kind of like my passion
project is
I came from the Bitcoin
education side.
That's how I started
at the Bitcoin embassy
like 12 years ago.
I love installing wallets.
There's like nothing
I like
more in the world
than to signing up someone
to Bitcoin
by signing up, you know,
showing him
how to download the wallet,
showing them
what a backup is doing,
the first transaction,
signing up merchants.
And, it's
a really fantastic thing.
We have this public office.
It's basically
like office hours.
It's like a
it's like an information
desk.
And people walk in
and they're like,
they have a problem
with Bitcoin, like physical,
like a
like a practical issue.
Or they want to learn more
or they want to move money
and they need some advice.
And then every day
there's kind of like,
you know
Bitcoin is kind of weird.
So you always have like
these interesting stories.
And, you know,
just the other day
I have this guy
who walks into my office
and he just says, I'm here
to reclaim my sovereignty,
like this American guy.
And I'm like, well,
you're in the right
place, buddy.
So, you know,
we move the coins
away from his coinbase
onto a call card,
and we do that for free.
It's just a really fun
passion project.
Yeah, I've heard
a lot of good things
about Costa Rica.
I was just
I just came back from
El Salvador first.
First time I've been there.
And like, I love it.
I love the, the
the fact that you can
walk into any place,
just randomly and,
ask if they accept
bitcoin and,
and a lot of them do like,
more than you think.
So yeah.
And I had of
I had heard a lot of like
no adoption
is not what you think it is.
They don't accept it
everywhere. They're not.
But I think the adoption
is absolutely phenomenal.
And,
in El Salvador
and I think
it's orders of magnitude
higher than everywhere else.
Right.
So yeah, like, you know, so,
even,
even if you have a few places
in the town that accept
when it's already
it's it's already more
than, you know, like,
I don't know where to spend
bitcoin in Paris,
maybe like, you know,
ten locations
for a city of like,
10 million people.
Whereas it's very
ironic, like here in the,
where I live is kind
of like Bitcoin beaches.
So it's, it's pastoral.
It's the countryside.
It's far from infrastructure.
People are,
you know,
people are not
necessarily poor
because there's like tourism,
but they're not, you know,
it's not a big city.
And you'll have like these
very incredible situations
where you have like
a person selling
fruits on
the side of the highway,
like a,
like a grocery store
with a tin roof.
But they have Starlink
and they have BTC pay
server running.
It's it's really
it's really mind
blowing, you know,
and for them it's
totally ubiquitous. Right?
So if I go to a store
and I say, hey,
can I pay with Bitcoin?
It's like, yeah, sure.
You know,
take the phone,
scan the QR code
and that's it.
So they don't
they don't have that kind
of like psychological barrier
to Bitcoin
that a lot of
Western heads do.
Where a very good example
if I turn to Orange Village
merchants here in Costa Rica
this is how the conversation
goes.
Hey can I pay with bitcoin.
And they're like no.
And I say why not?
And they will reply,
well I don't have the app.
I don't know how it works.
And I just say, okay, cool,
give me your phone,
I'll download the app. Right.
But you know, do a
things on the phone
and then I explain
and then I do a
little payment
and then they have bitcoin
and then that's it. You know.
And nobody's
going to say like
I don't want to
accept bitcoin.
It's money
for criminals or terrorists.
Like they don't have that
like normie
psychological block
that, you know,
you would get in Canada
or Europe or something.
Now that was my experience
in El Salvador too.
Like this.
This one tooth old lady.
And, in a supermarket.
And I ask
if you accept Bitcoin
and she's like, no, no, no,
but my daughter is around.
I'll call her.
And ten minutes
later, her daughter
shows up in a pickup
truck and accepts bitcoin.
So it's nice, but
but I love the the the like.
The first word that comes
to mind
when I think about you
is based like
and the same thing for
for that like in Costa
Rica it's
as you say BTC pay server
and Starlink and stuff.
It's the real deal.
It's not some silver
wallet bullshit.
It's it's,
it's full on hardcore.
And the same goes
for bull bitcoin.
Yeah.
I remember
like first time I saw you
I think was in Riga 2019,
which is like the first
real conference I went to.
And like so many,
so many connections
I made there, it's
it's just insane.
In hindsight,
what kind of
people were there? And,
bull bitcoin.
You had a whole
squad of,
of Canucks over there.
Yeah.
Mate X was there,
there was a bunch of people
there.
And, you know,
we organized a shooting range
for bitcoiners
to shoot your first gun, and.
Yeah, it was great, man.
And it was.
It was right at the time,
I think, where
four Bitcoin started to
exist as a new brand,
because I had been running
for Bitcoin
under another brand
for many, many years
under brand called bills.
And bills
was to pay your bills
with Bitcoin.
So yeah with the way
you bills.
Yeah yeah
yeah I remember that.
Yeah exactly.
It started out as a
as a bill payment processor.
Kind of like
kind of like a bit refill
ish I guess.
But more more focus
for like big purchases,
like buying cars
and like paying your rent
and like that and stuff.
So we rebranded it to bought
Bitcoin in late 2018 where,
you know, I had this
kind of like midlife crisis
in Bitcoin where I was like,
so what am I
doing in this thing?
Because I had also been,
you know, doing
some, some,
you know,
research and blockchain.
I was
I was like into debates
with shit corners
about blockchain technology.
I'm like,
what what am I doing?
Like, what is this thing?
And we were like coming
out of the four corners,
you know?
So I was trying
to figure out like,
what is the identity
of like what
we're trying to do.
And it was bitcoin maximalism
and cypherpunk
values like this is
this is like
what's as a as a company
we're not just a company.
We are a cultural thing.
Because after the fork was
we kind of like realized
that there is some kind of
there's
some kind of
politics in Bitcoin
and there's different
factions.
You know,
there's like the normie NPCs,
Bitcoin, blockchain people,
and then there's a Cypherpunk
and then there's
the new maximalist types.
And I was like, okay,
so like
we are like in this
in this
corner of the,
of the cultural zeitgeist
and we really want to
push for that.
So like,
our identity is basically
like sovereignty
cypherpunk
principles and maximalism.
Like we came out with this
Bitcoin only,
kind of like
theme, which I
don't want
to take credit for,
like a bitcoin only company.
But I really think
that there was like
very few companies
that were using that
as a marketing thing. Right.
So some people,
some companies were like,
they just are
a Bitcoin company,
but they were not a bitcoin
maximalist company
like outspokenly. So.
So we kind of like
said like let's
make this our theme like
fuck this shit coin.
So like as a, as a,
as a corporate strategy,
you know,
and now that was fun.
And then
everybody that Bitcoin is
is very based,
you know,
it's a self-funded startup.
It's very organic.
It's started out,
you know, me
and another guy and,
you know,
I was paying bills
every single day
like manually like
when people
were sending Bitcoin.
It started out
really like garage.
Like the way
the bills worked is like
I had a electrum wallet
and people would send
coins to my wallet
and I would log in
to a banking system
and pay people's
bills for them.
So it was really,
really manual
and it grew really slowly.
It took a long, long time
for us to grow
because I didn't
want to take any investor
money at all.
So like
everybody had one Bitcoin
that I recruited
was was very deliberate
and I only hire
like based bitcoiners.
I discriminate 100%
when I hire someone.
And nowadays, you know,
I discriminate a little less
because we have like
very talented engineers
that are
maybe they're
not as based as, as I am.
But yeah.
So, so the company is really
just when you say base
like that
makes me very proud
and satisfied
that that's the first thing
that comes to mind.
No, but
that I absolutely love it.
There's one of my
favorite companies
in Bitcoin for short,
just because of
this attitude,
because there are
so many companies
that that take pride
in following the new
Mica regulation
and doing
the ESG score bullshit
and doing the KYC properly
and all of that stuff.
And bull Bitcoin,
it's like the opposite.
They're like,
refuse to take orders and
like,
correct me if I'm wrong,
but I think you can mail cash
in via
the Canadian
postal system and get bitcoin
on the other side, KYC free.
You used to unfortunately,
we were
we were shut down,
in Canada
on that specific thing
and the the order to shut
us down came.
We don't know where exactly,
but it's, it's
very clear that it came from
from pretty, pretty high up,
in the government.
So, yeah,
you used to be able to buy
because, you know, there's,
there's like there, there's
when you look at regulations,
like my attitude,
my personal philosophy is to,
interpret it in
the way that benefits
the users the most
and to never give
a single inch on,
on any technicality. Right.
So really, like,
for example, in Canada,
there's KYC
requirements, there's AML,
and there's all that stuff,
but there is like a threshold
where you can,
you can allow
no KYC transactions
under a certain threshold.
So of course
we're going to allow that.
And of course we're going
to encourage that.
Same thing
for selling Bitcoin,
you know,
and there's
all sorts of things that,
you know,
they sound
like technicalities.
But the way that even
we create our databases,
the way
that we report information,
you know, like,
we're always
giving the least amount
of data
humanly possible
in a way that,
we can stay in business.
And my attitude
is always to be like,
well, we're just gonna
we're just going to do it.
And then
the regulator is unhappy.
Like,
let them send me
a letter, right?
And then
we'll figure out
where the line is,
because
companies, tend
to be over compliance
because they're
they're afraid. Right. So
and it's
even in the case of
Micah, another regulations
like there's some,
some of the things
that the exchanges are doing,
they don't have to do.
They don't have to do them.
Right.
They're just
they're just over
complying
in order to please
the regulator
to make sure
that they're going to.
And there's
in the exchange space.
It's all it's it's
kind of interesting.
There's
there's a fear of
getting debunked.
So,
I don't think
a lot of exchange operators
are afraid of going to jail.
What they're afraid of
is that
their bank
is going to it's
going to
close down
their bank accounts,
because they're
non-compliant.
And you know what?
I've been doing
is just opening
tons of bank
accounts everywhere. And.
Yeah, it has happened.
You know,
when we had this thing
in Canada where,
it became known
that you could buy Bitcoin
with no KYC
at the post office.
And, you know,
maybe it was a
mistake on my part,
but I definitely
advertised that a lot.
You know,
I, I made it a big thing
and it was incredible. Man.
The volumes were insane
and like, it was crazy.
People were absolutely
lining up at the post office
buying bitcoins
with piles of cash.
And, as a result of this, you
some politician
heard about this, obviously,
and became offended
like a little virgin
and then, pressured
some of our banks
to the bank.
Us and, you know,
I lost the bank
account over that,
but I have many others, so.
Yeah, I mean, the the
it it's
and it's interesting
because as a, you know, I'm
a big libertarian.
I'm like
close to the
as close to an anarchist
anarcho capitalist
as you can get
without being a full and cap.
You know, I'm kind of like
I'm kind of like
just I'm a monarchist,
so I don't,
and I am passionately.
So that's how
I got into Bitcoin.
I got into Bitcoin
first of all,
because of politics.
I saw bitcoin as a
as a political instrument
to destroy the state. Right.
So that's like
why I'm in here.
So it is it is very, annoying
to run a Bitcoin exchange
because you are faced
with all sorts of compliance
and it's really,
really like emotionally
and like psychologically
and spiritually damaging
to have to comply
to regulation.
So, you know, we do we,
we we do the best we can,
you know, to to to do
as little as we can
in order to stay, alive.
And, you know,
I've always known
in the back of my mind,
like maybe,
you know, the idea of Bitcoin
getting banned,
is always in the back
of my mind.
Like, I know that it's
something that
that can happen.
And, you know,
there are certain lines
that I'm not willing to cross
in order to make money.
So right now
I think that we're
navigating the line of mica,
for example,
like mica is a
fucking pain in the ass.
It's really annoying.
But there's certain things
that we can do to
soften it up.
Like,
you know, certain ways
that the travel rule
is implemented.
Like there's ways to for us,
like we don't have to do
as much as some exchanges do.
So we try to do that.
There are certain lines
that I, that I like
while cross,
like, for example,
you know, giving,
a government,
the entire database
of everybody's
transaction as a big dump
because they want
to tax them.
Like that's
not something that we do.
Like we don't do that.
The governments
don't ask us for people's
bitcoin trades
unless it's like
suspicious of money
laundering and stuff
like that.
So there's like certain lines
that we don't cross.
And that's also
why I've been
working on this.
I have other projects,
you know,
like the Bitcoin wallet.
Bitcoin wallet is great
because it's
a non-custodial wallet.
It's not linked
to an exchange.
I don't have a bank account.
So, you know, if
if I become too based to
to be allowed to exist,
I can always work
on an open source
software project.
I don't mind doing that.
Hello there
fellow Bitcoin
or take your coins
off the exchange right now
you need to take
self-custody of your coins.
Now how do you do that?
First of all,
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The show
I think that some of
now first
of all the Ancap angle
I think
the correct way
to view or correct,
I mean, the way I view it
is that,
no government at all
is probably utopia,
but fighting for a smaller
government is always
the right choice, regardless
of how small it is.
Like,
you can always try to make it
smaller.
That's
probably the right thing
to do, right?
So yeah, I think that's
what you meant
by minimalist or something.
Like something. Yeah, yeah.
And I really,
I really like the, the, the,
the terminology
of monarchists.
So anarchist is basically
law like courts.
Courts of law.
Yeah.
And like a prison system
and like a police. Right.
So I've, I've,
I have been and kept it
like fully and kept
in the past
that back
when I first also got into
bitcoin and you know, like
AC decentralized
assassination markets
and private armies
and all sorts of, you know,
like zero zero government
kind of,
snow crash, utopian future.
But then again,
something happens
also when you have like, kids
and when you become
a little older,
you're like, actually,
you know, like,
I'm not sure I'm
not sure if I,
I think having courts of law
like a strong rule of law
for, for enforcing contracts,
it's probably, probably good.
And no,
the contracts
are not going to be enforced
on the blockchain.
And yes,
you're going to have,
you know, to have some kind
of police and courts
to settle disputes.
Not everybody's going to be,
no, everything is going to be
a smart contract
that's just self-regulating.
So and that's and that's the
that's the goal.
I'm not in my office,
but in my office
I have a gigantic metal frame
with one big word to words,
which is destroy fiat.
That's the mission.
The mission is to destroy
fiat.
So, yeah,
the way that I,
the way
that I got into Bitcoin
was I was,
a libertarian policy analyst.
So what does that do?
It's basically
I write
these little academic papers
and like blog posts
talking about the free market
and why the government sucks.
And,
so, so
it's like a think
tank, right?
I was working for
a libertarian think tank.
And then,
the the goal
of the libertarian
think tank is
kind of like
what Elon is doing with Doge.
You know, it's kind of like,
we're going
to cut a little bit here,
and then we're going
to cut a little bit there.
And slowly
but surely we will
unravel the state.
But then it's
kind of like trying
to scoop the water
against the tide,
like you cannot
stop the tide.
And even though
I really appreciate
what they're doing with Doge,
there's like systematic
things
that they can't change,
which is a
like they're printing
an insane amount of money.
And as long as
you have the money
and then
at some point you realize
what is the source
of all of this, like,
why is the tide rising?
You know, it's like,
what's the
gravitational force
making the tide rise?
And it's the money printer,
the money printing,
the money printer.
Is that so?
It's like,
okay, I can cut
I can try to cut
taxes by 10%.
But then if the government
still has the
the control over the funds,
they can still finance
all of their bullshit. Right?
And there's
a whole cycle
of government debt,
of interest, of boom
and bust cycle
and all of that.
So,
so the goal of both
Bitcoin is destroy fiat.
And the end goal of that
is to have a small state.
So I see Bitcoin as a
there is Bitcoin
is is a thing in itself
for me also
because at some point
like you start
Bitcoin is its own end.
It's not just a
means to an end,
but you know, it's
it is also a
means to the end,
which is
the massive reduction
of, of the state.
And ultimately,
if the government
cannot pay the enforcers,
the enforcers
will not work for free.
So the bureaucracy,
the spy agencies, the,
the global cabal
that is trying to
micromanage our lives,
they are paid
rather well, actually,
that's what
we're seeing with Doge.
You know, it's
like these bureaucrats,
they're paid
450 grand a year, you know,
to, like, enforce
these policies on it.
So it's a cut off
the money printer
and then the state
will shrink, on its own.
And it's also beautiful
because that's
that's like
a peaceful revolution,
you know, throughout history.
What do you do
if you want to
have a revolution
against a state
and change a dramatically?
I'm not talking about
like a little reform
like they're doing
in the States.
What I see
what Trump is
doing is not a revolution.
It's a reform.
He's a reformer.
He's not a revolutionary.
So historically,
how do you do a revolution
to completely change
the state?
You have to kill people,
right?
There's like,
that's that's
just the way
that it's been done.
So Bitcoin
allows us to achieve
similar ends,
which is a complete
restructuring of the state
and political order.
And all we have to do
is basically run
these little computers
and like download
these apps on our phones.
It's it's beautiful. Right.
So we're really lucky
to be able
to be revolutionaries,
but without
having to kill people.
It's it's awesome.
No, it's
the peaceful revolution.
It is being advertised as
by us, I guess
it's it's absolutely great.
It allows you to
elevate yourselves,
outside of these systems so
that you don't have to comply
with whatever bullshit
they come up with
because, like, yeah,
if you believe
in the non-aggression
principle,
which is basically saying
you have the right
to be left alone,
no man has the right
to decide over
another man's life if,
if it doesn't intrude
on other people's,
property or, or,
or physical being.
So if I don't,
violate against you,
you have no right to tell me
what to do.
And Bitcoin allows you to
to live that,
to actually live that.
And I think it's
absolutely beautiful.
We were we
we talked a bit
about exchanges before
and them being afraid
and therefore
they comply with these
whatever,
whatever the regulators say.
And some of them are afraid
of losing their bank accounts
as you said,
they opened a ton of bank
accounts.
I think,
I'd love
to pick your brain on this.
I think a lot of them
are actually,
their goal
is to be bought by a bank
at some time. So.
So they they,
they follow these regulations
and they're good little boys.
So good little dogs
just in order to for,
a big
bank to that
they hope that a big bank
will buy them at some point.
What do you think?
I think
I think that's
probably correct.
And, you know,
as a, as an entrepreneur,
which is running exchange,
you think about it.
Okay.
So, so what is
what is my exit strategy.
Right.
So you can do an IPO.
But doing IPO is really,
really hard
and really, really risky.
And like not it's it's
not it's not the best way to
you know liquidate
your your company.
So an acquisition by a bank
is probably
what a lot of people are
aspiring to.
I think some exchanges
also are thinking
about becoming banks as well.
I think we're going
to see that more and more
where they have, you know,
they have so much capital
that they can literally apply
to become a bank charter.
So yes,
it is
not only that
they are looking to,
keep their existing
banking arrangements,
but also I think, yes, they,
they do
want to become
part of the system
because that's, that's
how you kind of like
liquidate your assets and
and there's, there's,
there's like two ways,
you know, at both like I
and also
I, I'm not sure how much visa
I don't know how VC works,
to be perfectly honest,
I, I've never had a VC.
I don't know
I know a lot of VCs,
you know, like
and we have friends in common
that are visas.
You know we have like yeah,
we have a lot of friends
that are venture capitalists.
So I know them,
but I've never had
a working relationship
with a VC.
I think some of
the ones that,
we know are
probably not as bad
as the other ones.
And I'm talking about, like,
you know, like 1031 or,
when Jeff
Booth and Preston and,
time chain capital and,
Alan Franco, there's like.
Yes, like a few VCs
that I think
are are probably cool guys,
but I think there's
a lot of VCs
that are putting pressure
on these exchanges
to be like, shut the fuck up.
Take zero
risks over
comply, and then,
you know, raise
the second round
and then we'll raise
the third round.
And then after
the fourth round,
we're either going to IPO.
And if you IPO
you have to be
ultra compliant,
ultra ultra compliant
of course.
Or we're going
to get acquired
by Chase or by JP Morgan
or by this other big bank.
So I think that VCs
might be putting
a lot of pressure here.
And there's
there's another thing
which is very interesting.
So again,
I don't want to talk
too much about those,
but it's on my mind
because it's on,
you know, it's on Twitter.
But you have these,
when a company becomes
very big
and companies become very,
very big
because they raise
tons of money. Right?
Because bull
bitcoin is not very big.
We have like 32 employees.
And we probably have,
you know,
like I would say we're not
we're not like
a big exchange. Right.
So we're not Coinbase.
We're not Kraken
and we're not Bitfinex.
But we're also not
in the small exchange
category.
We're like we're definitely
like in the middle category.
You know,
we don't publish our volumes,
but they're big
like we do big volumes.
But we're only 30 people,
whereas, you know,
and I don't want to
take a stab at Kraken
because I like the Kraken
guys, but, you know,
they have like 5000 employees
or something.
I don't
remember the
3 to 5000 employees
or something.
So these companies,
they grow really rapidly.
And what happens
when they grow rapidly.
And so you have like
these factions
within the companies
that become their own
little bureaucracies.
So like
a compliance department
for example,
will comply over
they comply
because they need to
to justify their existence
and their paycheck. Right.
So you have these companies
that have
compliance department
that are like 75 people
that are almost
like this segregated
micro entity
within the company,
which which has
its own decision
making power.
So raising
a ton of money really early
and growing really,
really fast.
So like,
you know, if you look at,
like I have a personal
touch on every single
part of the business
and the compliance people
that work for me,
there are people that
share our ideology
and share our values. Right?
You know,
whenever a decision is
being made,
is is this causing
a privacy leak?
Is this causing
a security leak?
Is this necessary
or are
is the data
that we're giving
the minimum that we can?
Are we giving
too much data like
and they think like this
because I spent time
with them
and I have like
not control over them.
But you know,
like we stick
on a regular basis.
Whereas these
very large companies
that raise a ton of money,
the founders vision,
because the founder may
have been
originally a cypherpunk,
but that
the value of the founder
has not permeated the company
because it grew too fast.
Look at guys like
like Jesse Powell,
like crack On,
or you look at the Bitfinex
founders,
like the tether founders,
you know,
and even guys like Mark,
even guys like,
I don't know,
maybe not Coinbase,
but some of
these companies like
I kind of think like early on
they must have been
cypherpunks like, they must
they must have
in the very early
beginning of their careers,
at least
because they got
they all got interested
in Bitcoin,
you know,
between 2011 and 2014.
And that was like
the cypherpunk libertarian
era of Bitcoin
before it became,
you know, mainstream.
So I think these guys
must have originally been,
you know, pro privacy
and pro sovereignty.
But then their companies
grow to too big.
And then
you know, they're focused
on the finance side
of the company and growing,
user acquisition and this
and, you know, also
the other thing is like
they listed all these check
coins, right?
So now their mind is
just filled
with shit corners.
And, and they have to do
with securities regulation
and all that.
By the way,
like being a Bitcoin
only company is so clutch
in terms of
like not having to deal
with securities
regulation, compliance,
all that kind of nonsense.
It's so amazing.
And even just like focusing
on technology, you know, so,
there's things that,
that we focus on
that we do at bull
that it's not really well
advertised and marketed, but,
you know, in 2017
we started to to sign with
every single
bitcoin invoice that we were,
publishing because
I thought, okay,
so what if what if, what if,
what if someone wants to,
wants to pay a car
that's $70,000 and I display,
an invoice on my website,
and then I change the address
afterwards,
and I tell the guy
you sent it
to the wrong address.
I could do that.
I could screw people
over all the time.
And they'd be like,
no, no, no.
I sent it to the address
that was on the screen.
I'm like, well,
you must have sent it
to the wrong address.
How does
the person have a proof
that this was
a legitimate invoice
created by me?
Or maybe there's,
like, a man in the middle,
or maybe it's a
spoofed website.
Or maybe I can
change the rates
and be like,
oh, actually, like,
the rate was this rate
when you sent it.
It's like, no, actually,
I'm pretty sure was it.
So we start the times
to sign those
with PGP and timestamp.
Right.
And this took
like a long time to build
because we,
we only had Bitcoin
to worry about.
We're not
worried about integrating
Solana or Ethereum or Monero
like this takes a long.
I had this conversation
with a hardware wallet
manufacturer years ago
where I was like,
why don't you
make this feature?
I think it was PSV
or whatever.
And I was like, yeah,
we kind of want to do that.
But you know,
we have to integrate Monero.
And this also
recently happened with, with,
our software,
mobile wallets,
like we integrated pay,
join in the Bitcoin wallet
and it wasn't insanely hard,
but it was like, not trivial.
It was like a
it's it's a pretty it's
pretty sophisticated thing
to integrate pay join.
And I was talking
to this other wallets
and it's like why didn't
you integrate pay join.
And you know
I was looking at their their
what they're doing.
It's like,
oh it's
you guys are
working on Solana right now.
Okay, I see, I see. Right.
So you don't have time
for pay.
Join because
Solana is the new thing.
So you have to run
after Solana.
And so instead of like
getting deeper and deeper
into what Bitcoin can do,
you're, you're,
you're scratching the surface
on all the shit
coins and bitcoin right.
So because Bitcoin
can do a lot more things
and we can develop,
we can have an app
layer on top of Bitcoin
which solves
a lot of the
protocol problems
that people say
that we need to solve for
for I'm
not like anti off
fork forever.
I have I'm, I'm
a bitcoin conservative right.
And but
I'm not like
out of principle
opposed to soft fork
but and partly
because a lot of the problems
that we're trying
to fix with soft forks
actually we can fix
with apps instead. Right.
So pay joins a good example.
So page one fixes
some of the privacy issues
that we can do.
There's all sorts of stuff
that we can do
with, silence payments
with the liquid network
with Noster with lightning.
I'm not like the biggest
fan of E cash, but there are
there are some things
that we can do with e cash
and and if you combine
lightning liquid
e cash noster
Bitcoin sum
after our Bitcoin protocols,
you can achieve some,
some like
pretty incredible things.
If, if you focus on bitcoin
in a nutshell coins
that's the key right.
Because if you're just
doing the main features
of bitcoin send and receive.
And then you move to Solana
and then you move
to the other thing
and then you
we never have the
we're never going
deep enough in Bitcoin
to like fully exploit it.
So Bitcoin is
under exploited.
And also if you
look at the blockchain
you know all the spam
that's happening
like all
the exchanges
are doing transactions
that are spammy.
And I'm not talking
about ordinals, I'm
talking about
just the way that they use
Bitcoin is so inefficient.
It's unreal.
Like major exchanges
like like Binance
they have like this.
They reuse like one address
for a bunch of shit.
And then they do
these stupid ass
consolidations
at random times
and you're like,
okay, so
before we increase
the block size, like
if all of the exchanges
had guys like
the guys that work
at Bull Bitcoin
that were
given the leeway
to be like, hey,
can we spend like four months
to just
look at the way
that we create transactions?
And I bet
we could reduce the, the,
the size of
the existing transactions
by like 80%, right?
I'm sorry,
I was going on
a big rant here.
Oh no, no, I love it
I love it. Yeah.
But yeah,
the whole point is like
focusing on Bitcoin
allows us
to get deeper
into Bitcoin
and discover
what we can do with Bitcoin,
which right now,
is being massively,
I think massively
under exploited.
Now I, I0I agree
with all of these points
and I love it
because like
I grew up with
a Commodore 64.
So all you had
was 64kB of memory
to do everything,
which meant the programmers
had to be really careful
with how they used
code, like the code
had to be super efficient
and like, so.
So when I see
people harass the
the time chain with bullshit,
the consolidations
and or even worse,
like the ordinals and runes
and stamps and whatnot,
like the equivalent of like,
14 year old girl
spamming the internet
with cat pictures.
I mean, it's vulgar to me.
Like,
and and I think in the long
run we'll have to
people will have to use,
based base layer Bitcoin
more efficiently
because it's
going to be
insanely expensive to, to,
to be wasteful there.
And that's a good thing.
So,
yeah, that
there was something else
on my mind.
Luke usually helps me out
when I lose my train
of thought like this.
But but.
Yeah.
What what are your thoughts
on the whole spam issue?
Because, like,
I was, recently
had a talk in San Salvador.
So let's let me lay it
out for you.
So, the way,
the way I view it,
like real estate,
for instance,
when being used as money,
but which it is now
because money doesn't,
work as a store of value or,
or as I prefer a medium
of exchange over time,
because I think the dichotomy
is false, like
median emotional store
value is just two sides
of the same coin.
It's just another dimension.
So right now
the billionaire
buys up all the C from
real estate. Because because
it solves
a problem for
the billionaire.
It solves
the inflation problem
so that,
because he can't hold cash,
he needs to buy,
equity or,
stocks and bonds
or real estate.
So buy up
all the real estate,
which also drives up
the prices and,
like, eliminates
the middle classes
that no longer can
live in a nice house
at the beach
and the houses are empty
and there's no one in them,
which is like
house is being used
as money is destroying.
It's destroying
their functionality
as houses.
And I think
the inverse is true
because I think there's like
I call this
the first law of cloud, where
the dynamics
that everything
that is true for fiat,
the inverse is true
for Bitcoin.
So I think
any other use case,
then there's a
strict monetary
use case for money
reduces its functionality
as money. So if you could put
a legit the cat pictures
which aren't
even cat pictures
because they have
nothing to do with
you can't order sets like
but if you say that you can
and you spam
the chain with this bullshit
and if you do
bad consolidations
or whatever,
then you're not using bitcoin
as money,
which actually makes Bitcoin
a slightly worse
form of money.
Every time you do that,
it makes it more expensive
to send,
and receive Bitcoin.
Because you're
using it for other shit.
So so
what do you think of that?
Can you.
Well, I,
I agree 100%
with what you said.
And you said something
very interesting.
I really like the way
you said it about,
store of value
and medium of exchange
being one of the same.
Yeah.
The first time
I actually heard
someone say it in this way.
But this is exactly the way
that I've been
thinking about it,
and especially
with something like Monero.
And I'm just going to divert
very quickly to
an arrow because,
I have this thing
where, I don't know, I just,
I just pick on
whenever people are like,
I don't know, maybe they
they pick on me or something,
I don't know, whatever.
But,
the reason
why Monero
is not a good
medium of exchange,
because the Monero
people argue,
oh, you guys going to have
your new
and will do
the medium of exchange.
And the reason why Monero
is not a good medium
of exchange is
because it is also
not a store of value.
So in order for someone
to accept a mineral payment,
let's say you're
a drug dealer, okay?
And you accept them in error
payments.
What are you going
to do with that? Monero?
Well, what they say is, well,
what if we just keep
the Monero
in a circular economy?
Because of course,
if the drug dealer
is actually going to do
is he's going to convert it
to Bitcoin,
that's what he's going to do.
Right.
So so the first thing
he's going to do
is he's going to go on a
peer exchange.
He's going to switch that
to Bitcoin.
And then he's
going to move
the bitcoins around
going join them.
And he's going to sell
Bitcoin.
He's not going to sell them
when they work for fiat.
That's not
that's not what
these guys do.
They sell them
when they work for Bitcoin.
They move
the bitcoins around.
If they're smart.
If they're not
they just sell it right away.
But they all go back
to bitcoin and fiat
because
when I roll loses
its value over time.
And that's undeniable.
So because because
if you want adoption
you need a circular economy.
And if you want a
circular economy,
you need the value
of the currency to to remain.
So I fully agree with you.
Like for me, new
and medium
of exchange are one
and the same.
You cannot have a medium
of exchange without new
or at least you know
NI like it's
either number goes
equal or number goes up like
it needs to be either
equal or up, right.
For people
to accept
as a medium of exchange.
And I don't,
I don't really see.
And that's another huge
philosophical argument,
I guess.
But I,
I, I don't really see the new
use case
being at least that solid
without medium of exchange.
Right.
And, of course,
the reason why
people buy
beachfront property
is because it is, scarce.
Right? So land is not scarce.
There's a lot of land,
but what's scarce
is beachfront land
that's fucking scarce.
And especially
with a nice view.
And people understand
scarcity instinctively.
They understand that if I
buy something that is scarce,
and it's
like a very, like,
80 IQ way
of thinking about it.
But it's like,
if I buy something
that's rare, it's
going to go up
and this land is facing
the ocean,
and there's only eight lots
that are looking
at the ocean here.
So and clearly
we cannot build more
ocean view lots.
I mean, you know,
you can build more condos,
but you can't build
oceanview lots.
Like there's just
a finite amount of
ocean of view in the world.
So people understand that.
And they respond by buying it
and investing in it. Right.
So, so seeking
scarcity is just
it's probably hardwired
in our brain through,
you know,
the human evolution.
We understand that
there's some things that are,
hard to get.
And if you find something
that's hard to get
and you can get it,
you should probably get it,
because
even if you don't want it,
someone else might want it
in the future.
So so scarcity
is, like, baked in,
and of course, that's,
that's that's
why real estate,
especially like,
land costs are,
like, insane, insanely high,
because of that
pursuit of scarcity,
which is ingrained,
I think, in the human psyche.
And regarding ordinals,
you know, as
I was very, very a perturbed
because I'm, I'm
a big proponent of,
and also, you know,
what's interesting,
when you run a company
like Bitcoin,
every purchase
is a Bitcoin withdrawal.
Okay.
So we do a lot of
transactions like,
we may not have as many users
as Coinbase,
and Kraken and Bitfinex,
but we do
a lot of transactions
because 100% of every trade
is a Bitcoin payment.
And even though we,
we have used lightning since,
I mean,
the first lightning prototype
we did was 2018
didn't work really well.
And then we fully
launched it in 2021. I think,
it's it's
mostly on chain, right.
It's still still
mostly on chain.
And we also we also do
a lot
of internal transactions,
to manage our wallets
in order to,
let's just call it,
make it harder
for hackers and fraudsters
to spy on our users. Right.
So so we do
a lot of
unchained transactions.
So when the fees go up,
it actually does
cost me a lot more money.
And, you know, at some point,
the, the amount of money
I'm spending on fees
per month
is, is an amount
that's so high
that I think
people would blush,
you know, that I,
I'm a big financier
of the Bitcoin
mining industry.
Let's just say for bitcoin.
So obviously when the fees
go really high it hurts.
And even though we are
doing our best to optimize,
the, the subsidy of
Bitcoin VC money
into the Bitcoin
network is being,
so these technologies
are subsidized
to make Bitcoin transactions
that we also have to pay for.
And it's like,
you know, people say,
hey, like let them spend
let them spend their money
like idiots. Yeah.
But like
I'm also spending the money.
Right.
So like when they expand
the chain, I spend money too.
It's not just them
that are wasting money,
they're wasting my money. So,
and and obviously
I agree with you.
Bitcoin should not be a data
layer and, usage.
Yeah.
More importantly,
they both the utxo
set and make,
running a node
is firing up
a node more costly.
And that's absolutely
crucial to so,
so it's a bad behavior
and it's a flaw of
the fiat system.
This infinite lending thing
that allows them allows them
this amount of cash to
to do bullshit
like it's not productive.
No one in the world,
humanity is not better off
because someone spams
the blockchain with JPEGs.
Like that's just not okay.
And I think that
there are so many like
we're going
to see more of these,
like late stage Fiat games,
like having their,
debit bounces.
Yeah.
Trying to trying
to like, mess with bitcoin,
you know,
various degrees of success.
But it requires bitcoiners
to be somewhat vigilant
and like,
take the fights
when we need them.
I mean, yeah,
we won the battle,
the big battle,
like the hash size
or the block size force or,
which were never
about block size
but about control.
But we want that.
So like,
we showed the man
that the users are in charge.
We need to
win the next
such battle as well.
We need to stay vigilant.
The AI, in my view,
is absolutely
the only only threat to to
to Bitcoin is
the US not being
vigilant enough or it's,
what is the complacency
is the word I'm looking for
like absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah.
There is like this phenomenon
that okay, so,
everything's
good for Bitcoin. Why?
Okay.
So so this is something
that a lot of Bitcoin is
say like well
everything good
for Bitcoin anyway.
So why is everything good
for bitcoin.
Well that's
because of the antifragile
nature of bitcoin.
Like let's go deep in that.
And Bitcoin is antifragile
because it's
composed of humans
which react.
It has white blood cells
which are nodes. Right.
And so
if the white blood cells
don't do their job
and Bitcoin
is not antifragile.
And in that case not
everything is good
for Bitcoin,
everything is good
for Bitcoin.
As long as as you say,
as long as we
remain vigilant.
That's like the premise.
So people should
say everything's
good for Bitcoin
as long as we are
not complacent. Right.
That's like the
the thing that people
don't said the second,
the second part of the
of the mantra
and what
when when the original
things happened, I,
you know, I was
I was very upset
because I was thinking like,
these guys are using
we are in a time
frame of easy money.
So. Right.
So there's
the fiat money printer,
which goes down to the funds,
which goes down to the LPs,
which goes to the VCs,
which goes to the owners
to pay
for their Bitcoin fees.
Right.
So it all flows
from the money printer
because in a sane
society like, you know,
most downward the right
and like
and like in a sane
society like,
of course nobody would spend
thousands of bitcoins
on transaction
fees like we had
of the housing in 2024, 2024.
Right.
So, so
that's that's
completely
irrational behavior
for people to,
to spend bitcoin
transaction fees
in order to get their Jpeg
faster than the other guy's
Jpeg onto,
whatever it is, the scheme 20
I don't know.
So it is obviously behavior
that is eliminated,
from the market over time.
As the subsidy of the money
printer, it goes away. Right.
But
but you have
these short term,
periods of time
where the market
has not readjusted itself.
Right?
And they actually do,
some damage.
What eventually,
you know, and the beginning,
I was like, fuck it.
Like I was the kind of like,
on the mechanic,
bitcoin mechanic, like,
side of things
where I was like,
we should fix the filters.
And that was my first thing.
It's like,
we should fix the filters.
We should
increase the dust limit.
We should.
We should do that something.
And then,
you know,
I, I began to realize that
there is
things that we can do.
There are things
that we can do.
But these are like,
these are some pretty
severe nuclear
options, right?
And,
they require us
to be willing to die
on that hill.
Like we could
we could solve for Bitcoin
and, like, reduce
the block size.
We could,
you know,
we could do some things with,
like removing
the SegWit discount,
for example. Right.
That was put in,
which is
what was initially exploited
by the Taproot Wizards,
which is the fact that,
you know,
some part of the data
is not counted
towards the blocksize.
And, and,
you know, you can
you can sneak
your shit in there.
That was not part of
the social contract.
That was one of the things
an unforeseen consequence of,
yeah.
Well, well-intended move.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In hindsight,
that was definitely a bad,
a bad decision
because when, when the
and the block size
was increased. Right.
So I hate it
when people say that,
you know,
they refuse
to increase the size.
What if no, no,
it's increasing
by 150%, like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I think I think it's,
it's,
blocks are pretty much three
and a half, megabytes. Yeah.
That's like 250% like. Yeah.
Because yeah,
they met
with one megabyte before.
Yeah, yeah.
And then,
and then the
social contract was
we want to encourage
the use of SegWit.
Therefore,
all the nodes agree
to subsidize its SegWit usage
by discounting the size.
Right.
This is
this is like very important.
Like we wanted to encourage
specific type
of transactions.
Therefore
we agreed to share the burden
of that transaction
because we want people
to move over to SegWit.
And then
the corners
that figure it out,
that they could use this
to put their
JPEGs on the chain.
So we are encouraging the use
of ordinals
with the SegWit discount
like we are encouraging it.
No, no, we're
encouraging the use of the,
false notion of ordinals
because they don't exist.
I know, I know, and
and of course, it's
an important point
because that we shouldn't
give the scammers like this.
We shouldn't
encourage them more
because what they are
selling is
complete vaporware.
First of all,
you can't own a JP.
But the thing is,
the sets aren't ordered.
They only ordered on a third
party website.
That has nothing to do with
with Bitcoin.
So it's all false.
It's like it's
like someone claiming
you can,
only own a star
in the Andromeda galaxy.
Yeah.
No, it's the same thing.
Yeah, it's.
Yeah, it's,
But but it's
not only like it's.
You can own a star
on this third
party website
that that shows a picture
of the Andromeda Galaxy.
Exactly.
And it will clog
people's nodes.
Fantastic.
Like it's
the oldest scam
in the book, man.
Like, they've
they've done this before.
Exactly.
Like selling moon land
or something.
You have a moon
land certificate.
Like, try to enforce that
without my
like your piece
of paper is worth. Yeah.
So also that's also don't
exist, right.
No. No. Exactly.
That itself
does exist
but sides don't exist.
So all of your entire
premise is false.
And like that's
that's also why
I had this, this war
with Bitcoin magazine,
which is really
which is really a shame
because I had that a really,
really long
and great relationship
with Bitcoin magazine,
because the Bitcoin Embassy
was the first retailer
of the Bitcoin magazine.
So in my office
in 2014, 2013,
I was selling physical copies
of the Bitcoin magazine
like a newsstand, you know.
So I knew David from way,
way, way, way, way back.
And that
thing with the originals,
that's that's
what I think like really was
bothering me so much.
It's like you,
it's somehow
real OG legit bitcoiners.
And despite
what you want to think about.
Bailey. Right.
You know,
he says some cringe things
sometimes he is
like a fucking real legit
og bitcoin or, you know,
and they were bamboozled
into thinking
that ordinals
are good for bitcoin. Right.
And like
how how exactly
this cognitive dissonance
appeared in their head
where it's a good thing
if all the shit coins
happened on Bitcoin
because I think it's
probably like Ethereum
derangement syndrome where
a lot of bitcoiners,
they hate Ethereum so much
that they are happy
to take away the shit corner
away from a theorem
and onto Bitcoin.
But at what cost?
You know, at the cost
of no
decentralization of Bitcoin.
Yeah, we were back at the
the monetary use cases,
being the only
legit use cases
because everything else you
reduces is functional.
I love the debate.
And I was like,
well, Bailey,
one thing he,
he tweeted once
that all roads
lead to Bitcoin.
And my first thought is yeah.
And I think I tweeted it back
like, yeah,
but there are roadblocks
like you can
put up roadblocks
and this is exactly
what you're doing by allowing
the shit coins to be here.
Yeah.
Like yeah there's no
there's no there's
no need to take
the long road.
And I don't know,
I think that's a detour.
And a lot of people think
like, oh, like shit.
Coining is a necessary part
of every bitcoin or is like.
So I mean, it's
not it's not like
I never had a coin face,
but I mean, you know,
I had and $10,
I spent $10 on a coin, $1
and each
and eight of them went down
and two went up.
And I'm like, fuck this.
I'm never going to like,
it's bullshit anyway.
Like so.
And it's like,
why I, I,
you know, a lot of normies,
you know,
they don't need to get rekt
in order
to understand Bitcoin
like I can.
You can persuade them
not to get rekt.
There's, there's no neces
it's not necessary
for them to get rekt. Right.
And I, I find it
I find it very, very sad
because a lot of people
and also they say like,
well, you know,
if you're buying Trump
coin it's
because you're
fucking retards
and it's it's two by three.
There's a lot of,
there's a lot of like victim
shaming in Bitcoin
where it's like,
well,
if you're investing
in these coins,
you're fucking retarded.
Well,
you have to see it
from their perspective.
Like they are not inside
the maxi circles
and they don't
necessarily understand.
And they think
that bitcoin
and crypto is one thing.
And they heard about Bitcoin.
They like Bitcoin.
So everything
must be the same.
And they are
getting defrauded
by psychological abuse
and manipulation by con men.
Right.
And it's like
some of them are gen gamblers
that know what
they're getting into.
It's kind of like
the casino, right?
So some people are
professional poker players
and they know what
they're getting into,
but some people are being
and like not
everybody is high IQ
and not everybody is
is has wisdom.
And just because someone
is a little stupid
and like it's
not it's not knowledgeable
does not
does not make it
okay for them
to be to to be scam.
And like the reason
why I became
so toxic, by the way,
is because when you run
a physical bitcoin office
like I did from 2013 to 2017
and like I'm doing
now in Costa Rica,
you see the
scammer, the scam
victims face to face, right?
So the old lady
who got bamboozled
by her grandson
into pulling the money
and putting it
into a meme coin
and it's all gone like that
exists, right?
And people
who thought, you know, like,
you know, they
they saw an ad on Facebook
to buy Trump coin.
And, you know,
a lot of people
are fucking scared
because their
retirement savings
are like going down.
And a lot of old people
also are very vulnerable
to these high yield
like scams,
because
they see their bank account
and they're like,
I have $200,000
in my bank account
and I'm 67 years old.
Like, I'm fucked, right?
You are fucked, right, man.
Try to live
for 20 years with 200 grand.
Like it's
just not going to happen.
And then, yeah,
I make like,
you know,
I make like
8% a year
on my savings account,
but the fucking money
goes down 8% a year anyway.
Everything's 8%
more expensive a year anyway.
So these people are like,
I need to do something.
I need to do something
to increase my wealth.
And you know,
they see this scammer
who's like,
hey, like,
you can make five x
with this fucking shit coin.
And they don't understand
that you're being scammed.
They're being manipulated.
So I see that as being like
evil right.
So scammers are evil people.
They are corrupt
in their souls
and they're taking money
and it's like it's not okay.
It's like it's not fun
and it's not like,
oh, well, you know, like,
are you against gambling?
And it's like, the thing
is, it's different
with gambling
because everybody understands
that casino like
like most people understand
the casino like the risks
and the rewards
of the casino.
Whereas
these meme coins and shit
coins and NFTs, they're,
they're they're being
pitched as like,
you remember
when when ordinals came out,
people were like
like even
bitcoiners were like,
these are going to be worth
fuckin like,
this rare sight
is going to be worth
like an insane, insane you.
Right.
And they were selling SATs
for like 100 bitcoins, right?
Arguing that they were rare
where SATs don't even exist.
It's like it's so dishonest.
Anyway.
Yeah, we agree on that.
I know we agree on that. So,
I'm going to run for a
little while now
because, like,
I really want to go deeper
and pick your brain
on a couple of things like,
I love the run.
Like, first of all,
let's go back to,
yeah.
Because my train of thought
came back,
the organizational
thing, like,
how companies that are
too large
become institutions
in themselves
and become bureaucratic.
I think this has something
to do with Dunbar's number.
Like so.
So Dunbar's numbers
around 160 individuals.
And that's the
the amount of people
you can know
personally and like,
remember who they are
and have a personal
relationship with.
And this is
it's about the same for,
for humans
as for our closest relatives
in nature like bonobos
and chimpanzees
and stuff like that. Right.
So,
and I think the, the,
the reason that humans
can, can form
organization, ones
that are bigger than that is
because we can have
this collective
hallucinations
or collective fantasies
or whatever
you call them, like
religions, nation
states, money,
or fiat money,
I should say
not proper money.
But but all of
these frameworks
we build around ourselves
that we believe in,
and therefore we can form
larger groups
with maybe a evolutionary
good for the group,
but not necessarily
for the individual
in the group. So.
So you may be part
of a great nation,
Lord, like the Soviet
Union was big,
a big as fuck for a while,
but the people in it were all
like living
completely miserable lives.
So I think like,
I saw that back
in my old Fiat, y'all,
by the way,
my last don't laugh,
but my last Fiat
job was as an H.R.
manager
for a shipping company,
and this was a company
that was had just outgrown
the Dunbar's number.
So like 2 or 300 employees.
And I saw all sorts
of growing pains
that came with like,
the CEO not knowing
everyone anymore.
And I think
maybe on a Bitcoin standard,
it would be a lot harder
to form these organizations
because you don't need to
and the
like organization
will stay like 160
individuals or less.
So you get these
smaller entities,
but more of them and more
more this
distributed
I like distributed
better than the centralized.
That's just that's a word
I don't like the buzzword.
I think the centralization
is an unfortunate means
to a greater end in Bitcoin,
which is sound money.
But do you think there's
something there
with a Dunbar's number
and that
that that may
be a force at play here?
Absolutely.
And Dunbar's number is also
there's an evolutionary
mechanism to it where,
you know,
that's, that's the
amount of people
in, in your tribe in, like,
an actual animal level tribe.
Exactly.
You don't need to have these,
systematic processes
like laws and money and,
institutions,
if everybody
knows each other. Right.
If everybody
knows each other,
then you can
you can ad hoc, improvise,
you know,
social relationships
and for sure in companies,
it's it's
the exact same process.
And this is where it becomes
very critical to have.
So this hallucination
that you talk about this
framework, right,
this, cognitive,
space that we all agree
to share
or that we all share
spontaneously.
It needs to be simple
and it needs to, to,
to be very,
very strong and un bendable,
so that the institutions
are not necessary.
This is why, for example,
like the US was so successful
as a nation
for the longest time
because they had a
simple constitution
with simple principles
of individual rights
and freedoms.
And like that's something
that we can all agree.
We can all agree on this
small thing.
It's like I have,
I have rights,
you don't have the
right over me.
It's, it's it's very clear.
And this is why
Bitcoin scales really, really
well because it has very,
very simple
and flexible rules.
So Bitcoin
as a social kind of like
system can,
can scale
to a very large number
of users. Right.
Because the,
because the rules
are extremely difficult
to change. Extremely.
And that's, that's good.
Why has the US gone to shit.
It's because
the US Constitution
is not being respected,
right? It's not.
Which is because
of the Federal Reserve.
As soon as you get
control of the money printer,
you care not
who makes the country's laws
because you can bypass them,
because you can fucking
bribe everyone.
And this is back to the shit
coins again.
Like the original shit
coin with a precedent on it.
It's not fucking trump coin.
It's it's the dollar.
Yeah,
and that's not even issued
by a precedent.
It's issued by us.
It's a so,
so I, I like to frame it
as klepto currencies
and cryptocurrency.
So yeah, klepto currencies
are the old Fiats
and the crap
those are the cryptos,
but they're the same thing.
And by the way, number
go equal
is also someone scamming you.
Because on the free market,
if there's actual sound
money number has to go up
because the prices
of everything else drops.
It's like the
easiest way of framing that
I think is like
if you practice
doing something,
do you usually get better
or worse at that thing?
And it's obvious
when you get better.
So why aren't
or why aren't oil prices
dropping forever?
Well,
if you use the
correct denominator,
or so I congratulate.
Absolutely.
This is probably
the biggest scam.
The biggest psychological
psyops of all time
is that people believe
that prices going up over
time is a natural phenomenon.
It's like a winter.
It's like summer.
It's like the moon.
It goes up, it goes down.
Prices just go up over time.
That's just the way it is.
Right?
But that's not like
and some of it is the
opposite is true because like
if, if we
have better technology
to make the same thing
and better
organizational processes
and like stronger connected
trades ties,
like obviously
this fucking coffee cup
should, should decrease.
The price
should decrease over time
because we're getting better
and better at it. Right.
And and
we have technology
to make it more efficient.
So like deflation
is the natural,
state of prices.
And, you know,
unlike other guys like,
you know,
I think Jeff, Jeff Booth has,
this, this,
this thing, it's like,
everything's
going to exactly zero.
It's not going to go exactly
to zero, right?
No, it's
marginal cost of production
every, every
go down the field,
it approaches
its marginal
cost of production,
which is right
trending towards zero.
That was a but so like,
zero marginal cost.
I think it's a book
like written
like 15 years ago maybe.
Yeah.
Everything is trending
that direction.
Yeah.
Never,
never go to absolute zero.
But it is trending
in that direction.
And there's things
that you can't produce, like
you can't produce human time
and you can't produce
beachfront real estate.
Right.
So so there are things that
so, so,
so money will always be,
like even if there's
deflation over time,
the argument
that money
is going to disappear one day
because everything
is going to be free
is, is nonsensical.
Because there will
there will always be a,
a pick
an original Picasso
and you'll say, well,
I can 3D print
that Picasso with I.
Yeah, but it doesn't matter.
Like I am not.
I am willing to pay
for the original Picasso,
even though you can create,
the exact
you can create the exact
same thing, Adam.
For Adam,
it will not have
the same value
as the original Picasso.
Right.
There are
there are
there are things that people
subjectively value,
and that are
that are objectively scarce.
Like an original Picasso,
there will only be one
Mona Lisa,
regardless of
how many Mona Lisa's you
3D print with.
I you know what I mean?
And only when people
at the same.
Yes.
Oh no one
so so this is I'd love that.
I love this because this
this is
something
I've been thinking of
for a long time
and having
difficulty explaining,
but this is like
one of the most
one of the deeper parts
of the rabbit hole. So.
So you say it like,
imagine this world
where everyone uses
Bitcoin as the denominator,
so they can actually see that
everything is dropping
towards zero.
Except,
you know,
beachfront houses and stuff.
So things that
are actually scarce,
but everything else
is becoming
abundant
and available to people
because the cost is so low
denominated
in the right denominator,
which is Bitcoin in sets.
So, and add to that,
this whole thing
that the dichotomy
between store of value
and meaning
exchange is false.
So you have meaningful
change over time and space.
In my
mind that
that world
looks something like,
barter and, and,
you know, people
just being kind to one
another actually goes up
and the number
of transactions
that need to be done at all
monetary transactions,
the need for them goes away.
Because I think,
and this is
such a weird mindfuck,
because micropayments,
everyone's talking
about micropayments
and lightning is great
because you can zap people
for nodes and stuff.
But micropayments in my mind
is a very fiat thing.
Like paying $0.50
to go to the bathroom
at the central station
will be replaced
by some subscription model
where you can go buy
any train
anywhere in the world
for the rest of your life
with a one time
bitcoin payment,
because numbers go up.
So so I think like the
there's a scaling
solution there, quote
unquote solution there.
And just money
not being as needed
because why was money
invented or discovered.
We'll get into that later.
It was
between people who
didn't know each other.
Like if you didn't
trust the other guy,
then money was a very good
medium of exchange.
And you didn't need it
if you knew the other guy,
because then you could
just trust one another.
And ironically,
this don't trust verify
that underpins
Bitcoin has led us to a state
where we can trust
each other more.
I mean, you, for instance,
I've, I've known you for,
a couple of years.
We've only met in real life
like a handful of times.
And we've had
brief conversation.
We had conversations
like this
a couple of occasions.
But still, I know you
from your reputation online,
and I would trust you
with my savings.
I don't think
you'd fuck me over
like I know you that well.
And this goes
for so many other Bitcoiners.
So, like,
ironically, like
this reputation
we've gained from not,
not compromising
our principles
has given us this
amazing ability
to trust one another.
And, like,
I know that
if I pay for a dinner
with a bunch of bitcoiners
or someone else will pay
next time, like, we're
we're inherently good
to one another.
And it's also
because we know
deep inside
that what is good for
the other Bitcoiners
is good for Bitcoin.
So we are doing it
for egotistical reasons
to we're pumping our backs.
But it's it's all
and all of a sudden
you get to
this insanely powerful
utopian society
where 8 billion people
are helping 8 billion people
whatever they want.
Like if we can get to that,
like I
this is why I'm bullish.
This is why
I think this is so powerful,
because it's
just it
increases the value
of being a human being,
and it increases the value
of other human
beings around you
because you can trust them
all of a sudden.
You can. Yeah.
But what are your
thoughts on this?
I think, the,
you know, the Maslow
pyramid, right?
Like the, the most,
the most basic needs
of hierarchy of needs.
Yeah, yeah I agree.
And these
I think
what's going to happen
is the things that are
the most
needful for people
are going to become
exceedingly cheap,
if not three
and just an example
I was thinking about
when you were talking
is water, right? So,
clean water,
if you go to
anybody's house and be like,
hey, like my car broke down,
can I have a glass of water?
I mean, you know,
no, nobody's
going to charge you
for water, right?
And water is, like,
pretty much free
at this point.
But this is something that's
exceedingly crazy
in terms of human history,
that clean water is available
pretty much anywhere
in the world for free. Right.
And then if you
think about other stuff
like food and lodging,
the cost of food production
should be very,
very low in the future.
The cost of lodging
also should be low,
it should be
very low in the future.
And we're not talking about,
of course,
expensive beachfront
real estate.
We're talking about
just like basic
lodging, clothing,
kind of like
the basic needs like
these are going to
these
prices are going to drop.
And I think you're right
that on a long
enough timeline,
you know, maybe not food, but
also kind of food
like they
will trends to a very,
very, very low cost.
And if they are
exceedingly abundant
like these are
the things
that are creating conflict.
Like when you
when you're
competing for food
and you're competing
for lodging
and you're
competing for water
and you're
competing for like,
you know, safety, you know,
or security.
So these are
the things that cause,
like human conflict.
And I think
what's going to happen
is as these things,
the cost translate
to very little,
then we're going
to be starting
to think about we're going to
we're going
to go up into the Maslow
pyramid,
and we're going
to be starting
to produce things
that were previously
incredibly hard
and difficult to produce.
Right?
So it's like
now that these things
are basically free
and the
the margin of return on like,
you know, something
is, is, is so low that
who cares about,
you know,
who cares
about reducing the price
of corn,
0.01%
more than it already is.
Let's produce other things.
And this might
be technologies,
this might be
medical sciences,
this might be space travel.
This might be,
I don't know, like building
fucking cathedrals
for no good reason
other than because it's
fucking awesome or, you know,
so, so I think like,
not everything
is going to be free,
but the stuff that the stuff
that we are competing over
now will be very
variable costs.
And then this,
this will free up our time
and energy
to produce things
that were previously thought
to be impossible
to produce, like
life extension technologies.
And I think space travel
is probably like
the better example.
And, you know,
like once, once,
once.
It takes far
less people to build housing,
you know, like,
what are people
going to build?
They're going to be
fucking space rockets,
because that's the new thing
that's in demand.
So this is how this is
how we evolve as a society.
Like stopping this,
stopping to focus our energy
on low Maslow pyramid things.
And we go higher,
higher, higher
into the more like,
I don't know, like,
you know, like
extending life, for
example, is not a priority
for a peasant. Right.
So the peasants has no
concept of
maybe I can live
to like 150 years.
You know,
the peasant has
the concept of need
to feed my family,
like the next
three quarters, you know,
subsistence lifestyle
is basically
like the next three months
in a,
like a medium case scenario.
And like the worst case
scenario,
it's like the crackhead
on the street,
which is like the next
six hours.
Right?
But, as, as we extend
like, okay, I'm pretty good.
I'm pretty good
for the next ten years,
you know, like, I'm,
now let's think about
more and more and more.
And this is how we elevate
ourselves above,
like the our base
nature of, like, subsistence.
So, this is why
deflation is good.
Like deflation
allows us to
elevate ourselves.
And if the price of things
are always going up and
due to.
And I just thought
about something
that the stupidest argument
ever is the argument of like,
well,
if the price of things
goes up
when the price of wages
goes up also.
Yeah, but the wages, your,
your savings
are still being devalued.
So if,
if you use that argument
it's like okay,
so you have to keep
working forever
just to catch up.
Right.
You can
you can never escape
like the fiat slave mindset.
You can never be like,
all right,
I have enough savings now.
I don't need to work from
9 to 7 every single
fucking day of my life
and like,
you know, work on this hobby
that I have.
I have an idea for this,
like, new motor.
You know, I'm a mechanic,
you know, like,
I have an idea
of how to make cars,
more efficient.
But I don't
have time to do that
because I'm
a fucking fiat slave,
and I hate to fucking work
9 to 7
every single day,
including Saturday,
in order to just keep up
with the cost of living.
So the idea
that deflation is bad,
I think,
and I mean, I haven't
you know,
I stopped really
getting deep
in economics like,
you know, years ago
now I'm more into technology,
but the idea
that deflation is bad
seems to be like current.
It still is current,
like mainstream
economic theory.
It's it's
the biggest lie ever told.
And it doesn't pass
the smell test
of the layperson.
So it can only be
created through a science.
Because if you ask the
average person, it's like
paying less
for the same stuff
over time, good or bad,
everybody that has a fucking
brain is going to say, well,
obviously that's good.
Like it takes
a lot of psyops
to make it the official
like dogma that, no,
actually it must be 2% more
every year.
That's like
the necessary target.
And that's like
Unchallengeable. Right?
Like our entire
system is like,
you know,
it must be between 1
and 3% more
every single year.
And you must accept
that as being true.
And people don't
even think about that,
you know.
Hello there.
I'm Kurt Swann home,
and I'm
an International Village
idiot and author.
These are my books
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There's an economic,
phenomenon called
Jevons paradox.
And it's states that
when prices go down,
you think that
people will buy
like what they need
in terms of that product
and then stop buying it.
But that's not true.
They'll buy
more of the product
because they can afford
more of it.
It's very simple,
like the whole notion
that prices
have to go up in order
for people
to spend their money.
It's it's it's bullshit.
Yeah.
And, and the best example
in the real world,
I think, is
the, is computers
and the internet,
like a device,
like a mobile phone,
which is like James Bond
with dream just 20 years ago.
Like,
we have everything, access
to absolutely everything.
You can manage
your entire life
and have all the world's
entertainment in this thing,
like books,
CDs and, movies, everything.
The fact that you and I
can have a conversation
without lag
between, like,
from on
different sides
of the planet,
it's just insane.
Mainly good. Like.
And this is the thing.
And this is just a
tiny little taste
of what's to come.
If you start using the right,
the nominee
and quality will go up,
like people
will buy more
and you will like,
okay, so this computer thing.
Yeah.
Just to finish the point,
like, yeah, it's
it happened
despite fiat
because it's
so it's so powerful
that despite
all the Fiat being printed
just that actually hinders
the process.
It happened anyway.
And like
when you remove that,
like it's absolutely
mind blowing what
this can lead to.
So yeah. Yeah.
No, no.
And absolutely you're right.
Like we have seen deflation
for certain things
where the
technology innovation
was so rapid
and so like powerful
that even despite fiat
it's still cheaper over time.
Like,
you know, like the TVs,
you know,
that we have
in the random Airbnb
that are fucking gigantic
like that used to be.
You are a multi
fucking millionaire.
If you have a gigantic flat
screen TV in your house.
And now every single cheap
Airbnb in the world
has like
four gigantic
televisions in it,
it's like a commodity.
Yeah.
And to your point about,
about quantity
and quality and deflation,
of course.
Okay.
Let's say that
I'm again, I'm
a peasant
and I spend $10 on,
I don't know, cornmeal
to feed my family.
And now cornmeal is $1.
I'm not going to buy
ten times more cornmeal.
I'm going to buy
ribeye steaks,
you know,
and I'm
going to be increasing
my quality of life
with higher quality goods.
And when ribeye
steaks are $1,
I don't know
what I'm going to buy,
but I'm I'm not going to buy
ten times more ribeye steaks,
but I'm going to buy stuff
that, you know,
I don't know, organic fruits
and I'm going to sweat.
I'm going to stop
buying the fucking
disgusting pesticide
full, fruits.
And I'm going to be
buying the organic fruits
and so on and so forth.
And then, you know,
once I've reached my
the highest quality of food,
then I'm going to move
to quality of housing,
and then I'm going to
move to quality of
health care,
and I'm going to get high
quality transportation,
and then I'm going
to get high
quality education,
and I'm going to get
how high quality
entertainment, you know,
and so everything
is just going to get
and it's
and but I'm going to still be
spending
the same amount of money.
Right.
So like,
you know, I'm
going to be I'm
still going
to be spending money,
but I'm going to
be getting more for my money
and I'm going to
be more happy.
And and I will save two.
Right.
So there's like both sides.
So, so let's say that
everything goes down
over time.
Like,
yes, I might be spending
the same amount of money
because I'm buying
higher quality goods,
but there's like a
max level of quality
that you can get.
You know what I mean?
Like like like a,
like a rib eye, you know,
I mean like, no, no, no.
Okay.
You can't get much
better than a ribeye.
And I, like,
you can buy a $30
bottle of wine
and you can buy
a $3,000 bottle of wine.
The difference
is less than between
a $30 and a $20 bottle.
Yeah.
Like, yeah,
like the absolute limit.
Like.
And life
doesn't get much better.
Like.
Yeah, I mean, I,
we partied at Saylor's house.
I mean,
he still has to take
a shit in the morning, like.
Yeah, with friend.
We were still human beings.
It doesn't matter
like basic needs,
but it's the Maslow thing.
And I think the, the,
the thing we're getting away
from is vulgar
consumerism and, like, buying
Chinese crap
just for the sake
of buying crap.
And it's going to be so good.
I think this is also
one of the
deeper thoughts I have.
This is a saying that rings
in the back of my head
for my grandfathers.
I used to say that
which you can do
without your own.
And I think there's
a profound truth in that,
because I think the
the opposite of quality
is not,
lack of call it,
it's equality.
Yeah, yeah.
But like,
you can't have both.
And I think, like you,
you get to
this inside of that,
which you can do
without your own.
Now, if you
if you have money
that's appreciating in value,
you don't want
to spend on shit
like you want to
spend on quality.
What you actually need,
and you don't use the urge
to spend on other shit
just goes away.
You know, the sell
all your cherished meme
like, yeah, that's what.
And Jack, my, for instance,
a great example
of that sitting in that empty
closet and just,
no, I'm
not I'm going to stack.
I'm not gonna
I'm not going to fall
for any of this bullshit.
Like, yeah, yeah,
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
And this is,
this is very bullish for art.
So, you know, like,
one of the reasons
that we're talking is,
I think you were
talking with mate X.
Yeah, mate,
we had a couple
of conversations
with, with mate X,
and they proudly.
So that's,
our other friends
in both Bitcoin right now.
Yeah, we have many
and but yeah.
And mate
X you know he's
he's basically
my best friend.
I've known him
for a long time and, and,
I,
I was never interested in art
before.
Before meeting him
and before kind of,
understanding his his vision
and his principles for art.
And, you know,
we talk a lot about,
you know, cathedrals
and the Renaissance
and how we can,
why is this art's
so important
to the human soul,
first of all?
And why is the art
not happening today?
And, you know, one
thing, it's like
I have
this is the only this
is the only piece of jewelry
that I that I own. Right?
And it's a, it's a mate X
bull.
Bitcoin gold, gold pendant.
Oh yeah.
I have a 2007,
Rav4 and a 1978
old fucking LandCruiser.
I don't own anything
really expensive
other than a laptop
and a phone.
But I do collect art.
Like I do collect
art that I find to be very,
very good
out of principle because,
this art is the only thing
that's, like,
worthy of my money, right?
The art is
the only thing that
can't like
that can't be easily
reproduced or,
you know, like the the,
it's very,
very difficult
to, to reproduce,
like extremely good
art versus like a fucking,
for example,
like a fucking jpeg.
So thinking about, like,
a second
architectural
and artistic renaissance,
especially when
you think about
like increasing
the quality of stuff,
architecture and
building, man.
Like the house
that I'm in, right now
is just a typical Airbnb.
I don't know how
long it took to
to fucking build.
Probably three months.
You know, I bang on the walls
and it's oh,
my camera's automatically.
I bang on the walls
and like the,
you know, it's it's
the constructions
shit, you know,
and it's not going to
like this
house is not gonna last
more than 20 years before
it needs to be taken down
from old and shit like that.
And how come you have
these buildings
in Europe, for example,
or in Asia,
that are built of stone
and that have been built
in the 15th century,
and they're still livable
and great today.
It's because
they had sound money there,
and they had very,
very low time preference,
in their building
because they had sound money
and because they thought
on the very long term.
So I'm very,
very bullish on art
and architecture.
No more ugly fucking shit.
No more cheap Chinese crap.
And and.
Yeah.
So, you know,
this this is the,
the one of the topics
I love the most about,
about, like,
high and low time preference.
And, you know,
I never really thought
about that
until reading
safety in the book,
which was,
illuminating.
And that was probably in 2018
or something.
The cons
and and this,
this is probably the line
that I talk to
people about, like,
what's the social gain
of bitcoin?
You know, a
lot of people are.
And my immediate answer
is to tell them, like,
who gives a fuck?
You're right.
It's good for you.
So like you,
you should use it.
But, but
people do want to hear,
you know,
what's the social
benefit of Bitcoin?
And even though
it makes me cringe
to have to justify
the social benefit
of something
because
who gives a fuck, right?
If it's good for
you just to do it?
I that's what I talk about
and I talk about
lowering people's
time preference
and what happens in a society
where you have,
generalized
low time preference.
Well, you have cathedrals,
you have monuments,
you have the Mona
Lisa and the David.
You have gigantic
stone aqueducts
like the Roman Empire had.
And you have generally,
just incredibly beautiful
and high quality things.
And is that not
something that you want,
like, do you like living,
seeing these condo towers
that are fucking cheap
and that are going to
crumble in 70 years
and you know,
that are going to become low
income housing,
you know, these modern condos
that you have there
all the fucking same.
Every fucking city
has the same goddamn
fucking condo,
same fucking thing.
It looks exactly the same.
It's the same fucking
building materials.
It's the same architecture.
And like
these are supposed
to be modern, expected,
expensive things.
And it's insane.
Like you'll pay
$1 million for a condo.
I guarantee you
that in 50 years,
this is going
to be low income
housing, right?
This is going to be like
a whorehouse, right?
It's incredible.
No.
And isn't it insane
that we're personal
friends of people
like, matrix and and Fractal
Crypt and apex and all that,
like these are the,
the Leonardo da Vinci
of of of RH, like.
Yeah, yeah.
And we're fucking buddies
with them.
It's just insane.
Like because
they have this low time
preference thing. Yeah.
And I love it.
Even though I would say that
I can, I can appreciate
some high tech reference
art, like pop music.
There are good pop songs
and, like that,
in a way,
they're not both a
high time preference,
because they're probably made
by people
who had a lifetime
of experience
producing this stuff. Yeah.
And I, I like to
this is another rabbit hole,
but I
like the term
proof of results
rather than proof of work.
Like I think pop
songs are fine.
I don't, I don't,
I like to listen to pop songs
and like house music.
You know, the thing
is, every house music
song is more or less
the same song, right?
Yeah, yeah, every,
every pop song is more
or less the same song.
But it's enjoyable, right?
It's like it,
it's like our base,
you know, the bass, the drum,
you know, it's like kind of,
Sometimes you don't want
to elevate your spirits,
you know, you don't
you don't always.
You don't want,
always want to have the
the ninth Symphony with. No.
You know,
there's only one, right?
There's only one ninth
Symphony of Beethoven,
you know, I mean, yeah,
none of the
symphonies are alike,
you know what I mean?
They're all different.
But all the pop songs
are the same.
But it's it's
okay to have some cheap shit,
you know,
we we can't have or
are guilty pleasures,
but it's the illusion.
It's the illusion
of diversity
of the cheap shit, right?
It's like the same thing
with, like, not
same thing
with, with all the shit coins
and thing
with all the houses.
It's like
you have an illusion
that,
you have some diversity.
But it's all the same
right there.
It's like 200 different
brands of cornflakes, like.
Yeah, well,
you could have the ribeye
steak, like. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly the way
or the way I look at time
preference is like,
if you take
the shortest time preference
I prefer short or long,
but this is just
all this bullshit.
But anyway, if you take the
highest time preference,
possible, which is
all the,
all your possessions
are removed,
so you're naked
in the streets
and you have nothing.
What?
It's that like
that is a state of fear.
And if you take
the opposite of fear,
what's the opposite of fear?
Like it's love.
So the longer your time
for like time preference is.
So the process
of civilization
delaying gratification is.
It's the Robinson
Crusoe example
of like delaying
saving up fish
so that you can eat
while constructing
constructing the fishing net
in order to,
catch more fish per
time unit in the future.
That is the process
of civilization.
There is no other
like like
the opposite of that
is just bashing
the other guy over the head
with a stick
and taking his stuff.
So and that's
the highest time preference
there is the crime.
So, so
it's, it's it's
the dichotomy is fear
and love.
It's the same thing
as a high
and a low time preference.
And I think I use that a lot.
I use that a lot here
because where I live,
it's a very, kind of hippie,
kind of
pagan, almost,
like element, I guess.
Like, like, isn't it? Right.
So it's it's yoga,
it's surf, it's nature.
People who are here,
they are.
I guess it's
kind of a weird,
left libertarian
type of people where
everybody's like Antifa,
but it's kind of like Robert
Kennedy style, you know?
Like,
you know, everybody's
kind of like anti
big pharma, anti-capitalist,
but also they're
all entrepreneurs
and they all make money.
So it's kind of like weird.
But I use this example a lot
because we are facing this,
political situation
of gentrification, right,
where there's
a lot of foreigners
are moving here
and, people are
anti capitalistic
because they think it's bad
for the environment.
But I explain to them, like,
like if I am
a wealthy individual
and I move to Costa Rica
and I'm
buying a thousand
acres of land,
what is going to be my desire
to do with this land?
I am going to preserve it.
I'm going to preserve it
because I don't need.
And then,
if but if I am a peasant
and I have a thousand
acres of land,
what am I going to do?
I'm going to cut it all down.
I'm going to sell the wood,
I'm going to burn it,
and I'm going to make a field
for my cows. Right.
So so I use this
this example of,
you know, it's
kind of like the fear, love
and subsistence and,
and higher,
higher achievement.
And it's like if,
if we're all rich,
we're not going to be
fucking building
condo towers on the land
that we buy.
And, you know,
I also use this example
with people here.
And it's like the
for me, the,
the ultimate
luxury to own is a Jaguar.
But I tell them it's I'm
not talking about a car,
I'm talking about an actual
fucking Jaguar.
Like,
I want to have 10,000
acres of jungle,
and I want to have jaguars
live on my land,
and I derive an insane
amount of pleasure
from knowing
that I have jaguars
in my backyard like that.
And that's that's
because I'm.
And I'm
able to value something
so abstract
as like the fact,
the fact that I'm allowing
the jaguar to exist
and to do its life
and without that,
without me protecting him,
he would not exist
because someone
would have cut
the forest down.
So that I can make a field.
I derive an incredible amount
of pleasure from that.
And this is like
the state of love
that you're talking about.
Like, I mean, oh, there's a
yeah, sorry for
interrupting, but
but but I get that like,
this is the typical lefty
derangement thing
because they think
they're against capitalism
when what
they're actually against
is crony capitalism. Yeah.
Because we never
had capitalism.
We never had falling prices.
It's always been
a centrally planned economy
where someone has access
to a money printer.
So we never seen
actual capitalist,
we never seen the state
of love.
We never seen
the state of that
which you can do without.
We all know
we haven't seen this
greater civilization,
but we're about to
and it's yeah, it's fantastic
because we have a front row
seat. It's just amazing.
And and here
when we try to orange
build this kind of community.
Right.
So, the kind of like Bitcoin
jungle and,
yoga, alternative community.
This is very interesting
for me
because the argument
that people have
is against money itself.
Right.
So you explain to someone,
you don't need to explain
to someone here
that fiat money is evil.
They already know
that, right?
They they understand.
But in their mind
they have made the connection
that money itself is evil.
Therefore the solution
is barter. Right?
So a lot of people here
they are for barter
and then the end
and and then you have
to explain like
I understand
where every argument
you have against
money is a good argument,
but that's
because you don't understand
sound money
and specifically censorship
resistant sovereign wealth
like Bitcoin.
So I don't have to argue
against fiat
and credit cards here.
I have to argue
against barter
and like, well, you know,
like sure.
And barter works as you say,
with like kind of like
a Dunbar's
Dunbar's
number type of situation,
but like, okay, like we
if you want to barter,
that's completely fine.
But fucking
give me your iPhone.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no,
give me your conurbation.
No subway station was ever
built without money.
Like there was never
a barter civilization.
Because you.
Because your kids
will by
mutual coincidence of need.
And it never happens.
Like your
your children will die
at childbirth.
And be a mother.
And you will live
to be 55 years
old, if you're lucky.
And that's
that's totally fine.
And I'm not.
And you have to explain,
like I'm
not talking about
having because.
And then they'll think like,
I don't need to Chinese shit.
I'm like, I'm
not talking about
fiat Chinese shit.
I'm talking about like,
high quality
food and high quality shelter
and high quality
and efficient transportation,
you know?
So, yeah,
people have insight ups
into thinking
capitalism is bad and the.
Yeah, other.
And then
so what we need is,
is, is radical
utopian communism and barter
and it's like that
is that is
a destructive mindset,
super destructive.
Like these people
think money
is the root of all evil
when it's actually
the other way around.
Evil is the root of all money
except Bitcoin.
Because Bitcoin in a way,
I think it's degrading
to Bitcoin to call it money
because it's more like
it's just a way
for us to communicate
love like,
and to to actually
be good people
to one another.
And we have a mathematical
formula for,
for expressing
who we truly are and,
and our true potential.
I think it's just insane.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Let's let's go.
There was Bitcoin
an invention or a discovery?
This is something
you tweeted the other day.
So we should have a battle
like let's go. Yes.
My my contention is
that Bitcoin was invented.
And sometimes, you know, I,
I understand
that it's not a, it's
not and it's not like
against the Toshi.
And when people say
that bitcoin was discovered
understand that it has it's
not like an insult
to Satoshi,
but I,
kind of get triggered
on that because, I, I see,
I see
Satoshi's genius
as being the person
that created
all the components
and made them come together
like an engineer
who was designing a motor.
Right.
So, like the underlying
principles of,
like a motor,
like thermodynamics
were discovered,
but the motor itself
was created and engineered,
and that might
the distinction that I bring
is basically
that,
Bitcoin does not exist
in nature.
Bitcoin is not
a natural phenomenon.
It's definitely
like a manmade phenomenon.
Right.
So the idea, for example, and
one of the most mind
blowing revelations
I've had with Bitcoin
was, okay,
so how do you prove that
something that's not exists?
It's something that in nature
you cannot do right
because the space
is infinite.
Then like,
how do I know that this big
Spaghetti monster is not
right behind me?
I can't verify
that the Spaghetti Monster
is not like,
right, right above my head.
How do I prove a negative?
I can't prove a negative.
So what I did
was he conscripted.
He created a box,
which is the blockchain,
and each block.
And he said,
for the purpose of us
talking about money,
this box is
the entire size
of the universe.
And you can download it
on your computer.
And if there is no double
spent transaction
inside this box,
we agree that it
is not exists. Right?
So so what's associated
is like
we are able
to prove the absence
of a double spend
by reducing
the size of the universe.
When it comes money
to this little block
and this other block
and this other block.
So, Bitcoin did not
exist before
Satoshi invented it.
Although I will concede that,
like the underlying,
you know,
the underlying
principles and digital
digital scarcity
also did not exist.
So the other counter argument
is that okay,
so Bitcoin was invented,
but digital scarcity itself
was discovered.
No
digital scarcity
did not exist.
It did not exist before it.
We needed to engineer it.
And not only do
we need to engineer it,
we need to maintain it.
Right?
Because if Bitcoin crumbles,
digital scarcity will.
It's not like
it's still going to be there
after Bitcoin crumbles.
And then we can
rediscover it again.
So I my contention
is that Bitcoin
didn't exist before.
Before Satoshi
digital scarcity
did not exist before Satoshi.
And yes,
some of the
mathematical principles
of Bitcoin exist.
I think
mathematical principles
exist, right?
And I think
physics exists
outside of us, right?
So if we die,
if humanity just all dies,
gravity
thermodynamics will still be
in mathematics.
Mathematical patterns
will still exist,
but Bitcoin will not.
All right, all right.
So devil's advocate back here
I love the whole box thing
that it's very reminiscent
of Jesus. Fantastic.
Like the
the map is now the territory.
Like it.
Bitcoin is
the first thing ever
where the map
defines the territory
and the other way around.
And I love that way
of looking at it.
So for me,
the reason
I've been promoting
the discovery
thought is that it it helps,
to I think that that kind of
framing helps the no coiner
differentiate between
bitcoin and crypto,
because saying that
it's an invention
implies that it,
that it can be
something better,
can be invented,
or that it can be
improved upon
and like
in ways
that Bitcoin
can really be improved upon.
And as you say, if, if,
if, Bitcoin stops
functioning from
for some reason,
let's say they ordinals
people actually win this war.
And it becomes unusable.
And then people stop
using it.
Then we can't
we can't really
replicate the experiment
because everyone would have
insider information
about the first time around.
So this, this,
immaculate conception,
the first ten years, it's
very important
that they played out
the way they did.
Like, if I, if I use a towel
before I take a shower,
I get a very different result
than if I use the towel
after I take a shower.
So the order of events is
what makes it that unique.
It needed
this immaculate conception
and this
this way
of spreading to the people,
because otherwise,
like it's a it's
just another shift coin.
So that's
where the discovery part
comes in to me.
Like that's why
I choose
to view it as a discovery.
And you can also say that
like numbers
do numbers like sets.
Not not really,
but they're in our heads.
The sets, do they exist?
No. There are,
you Texas on the,
on the time chain.
And but the actual
ability to move
the sets are in our heads.
Like everything in Bitcoin
is probabilistic.
We we say that we own them
because we know
that the probability
that someone else has
the same key is so low.
And we say that
there are 21 million of them,
because we know
that the probability
of exchanging any
at any time in the future
to a different number
is also so low,
because it's
in the collective
consciousness now, that's
how it works.
So all of it is is this
it's between the worlds.
It's bridging the objective
and the subjective.
It's bridging
the the realm of the mind
with the realm of the of
of what we call
objective reality.
It's it's
some, some type of bridge
between the two.
And you can also view it.
This is also an
argument for discovery.
Bitcoin has always
existed
since the
Big Bang or whatever,
whatever. Bang.
And since the dawn of time,
let's just say that,
the it's just that
the hash
rate was zero, up until 2009.
So you could view it
that way, like, well,
every component was there.
It's just that
the hash rate was zero.
So, so
but but my main, my main
like practical argument
and like real world argument
for framing it as a discovery
is because I think it helps
no corners differentiate
between the real thing
and the shit.
Like if for for sure,
for sure it does.
And it
and it's and it's
because the other explanation
about the
immaculate Conception
and what makes victims
scarce is very complex.
It's it's
and and
like in order to understand
like why you
why can't someone
copy bitcoin
a and make bitcoin
be and like make it work.
Right.
And the immaculate conception
is is very hard to grasp
for a lot of people where
not only there's like
so not only
you have like this
historical figure
which basically
sacrificed himself
for the greater good,
which is Satoshi. Right?
Because, you know, I, I, I,
I kind of believe that he,
he actually
he or they,
most likely,
most likely there is a
he and there is also a
they that's,
that's what I think that
there's once it's oh sheep.
But there was also a group.
But one of the guys
was actually Satoshi.
That's, that's
kind of like the way
I see it.
And what is the
likelihood that he or they
decided not
to spend their
bitcoin
or to deliberately burn
their keys like, and not,
and not do like a pre-modern.
It's, it's it's very,
very, very, very low.
And then as you say,
bitcoin was
it was was not antifragile
at birth. Right.
It was very difficult.
And it would have been
if you launch a shit
coin today,
everyone going to attack it
with hash rates
and all sorts of things.
And it benefited
from this historical point
in time
where it went under the radar
and was allowed
to organically develop
an immune system,
because
why do people have premiums
and all that?
All this centralizing aspects
is because
you need to inoculate it
at birth
with like a foundation,
which is going to whatever,
build it.
And then
you also had like this
unique moment in time
with the cypherpunks
that are willing to work
for free on something
and willing to die
on this hill,
like the how
things of the world and the
the marketing money
of the of the world.
And like all these guys.
So and also
you have like this
very intricate
play of economic interests
that are decentral ideas
and hash rate
and node and businesses
and all of that.
You can't
copy that
into something else.
And it's like really,
really difficult to explain.
I have a I did a talk,
in Calgary in 2020.
I need to find the video
where it was like,
these are the five layers
of Bitcoin scarcity.
Just to finally kill
that argument,
which is like, well,
why can't we just create
a better Bitcoin
in the future?
And also if you fork bitcoin,
it does not.
And that's another thing
that, it's
very hard to explain.
You can't hard fork Bitcoin.
You cannot.
It is not possible
because the other Bitcoin
will exist still. Right.
So what you can do is
you can airdrop
a new token
onto a new blockchain
with the same balances
with the same
you texels right.
You can copy the utxo set,
dump it on a blockchain,
and you can call it Bitcoin,
but it will not be bitcoin
because it will not be
compatible retro
compatible
with the original Bitcoin.
And that's
and diverging
a little bit here.
But that's my main argument
against raising
the block size.
That's my main
argument right.
Because could
we actually
raise the block size
to ten megabytes?
I mean,
in terms
of computing resources like
and so the argument is moot
from the beginning, right?
It's like, well,
if it was a soft fork
like SegWit, you know, well,
I'm like, let's I'm
not for it.
I don't want
another hard fork.
I don't want another
blocksize increase
even with the software.
But if it's a can decrease,
we can decrease,
we can decrease, we can.
And that are just the fact
that we can decrease it
with a soft fork.
That makes it a possibility
that I can entertain
in my mind.
But a hard fork for me,
it's it's it's it's none.
Because every single person
needs to be retro
compatible
from the beginning.
There is a social contract
in bitcoin, right.
That is if you
if you bought Bitcoin in 2011
and you put it
on a fuckin paper wallet,
you expect to be able
to spend it in in 2050
without needing
to have like that
weird airdrop
where you split your coins
and all of that.
So, so it's it's very, very,
very difficult
to explain
why Bitcoin
is unique to people. And,
it that
and that's why
we make these shortcuts.
You know, like when it,
when somebody
is trying to
I'm explaining it to someone,
you know,
instead of explaining
all of this thing, I'm
just going to show them
a chart of Bitcoin versus
a coin.
You know, it's like,
why should I buy Bitcoin
and the other ones?
Well, here's
the chart of bitcoin
and here's
a chart
of all the shit coins.
So I yeah.
And like
it took like
how long do you think
it took me to understand
why Bitcoin is unique.
I mean for sure
like from 2013 to 2017
I didn't know how
bitcoin worked,
like it was
only the block size.
Was that really like
how is Bitcoin governed?
Like who controls bitcoin.
That question.
Was it the miners.
Is it the nodes
I mean it is it is the nodes.
But it's not only the nodes,
it's the nodes
and the miners.
And it's also
the economic nodes.
And like what
exactly defines
an economic node.
And then at a certain point
you realize, okay,
it it's,
it's, it's
the fact that
the node is receiving
payments on a continual basis
that makes it
an economic node
like a holder.
It's not exactly
an economic node
if you start,
because if you
stop validating
payments coming
in, you're not validating.
So all all of that
and like the whole
interplay of,
of like
finance and engineering
and, and core developers
and like the,
the core developers
control Bitcoin.
I mean,
no, but
if everybody auto updates
because there's
one implementation,
then kind of yeah,
you know, so it's
very complex,
very, very complex.
And then on top of that,
you have
so so
that's why Bitcoin is
is like scarce
because of this interplay.
And on top of that
you have like
the whole
like mystical birth and the,
the ways that of course
it's, it's so hard, it's
so hard to explain to people.
But like at least you know,
and one of the things
I'm the most grateful for,
for the soft fork wars
and the for choirs is like,
we have a proof of Bitcoin's
resistance, right?
Because people say,
all right,
what if Blackrock
wants to fork Bitcoin
and increase
the size of bitcoin?
Well I mean
you may not know that.
But in 2017
we had our own Blackrock
and it was Coinbase right.
So Coinbase was way
more powerful back then.
Yeah we had we had Coinbase.
We had BitPay.
We had blockchain. That info.
We had Kraken,
we had this guy
and we had like the 30
top exchanges, which are like
95% of all
trading volume in the world.
And then we have
90% of the hash rate
in the world.
And then you have
all these influencers
and podcasters
and whatnot
that are for this thing.
And then
they were not able
to fork Bitcoin
to double
the block blocksize,
which like is not a huge deal
compared to doubling
the amount of bitcoins.
Because the 21 million
is the social contract,
the block size is not
part of the social contract.
The block size is
a technical thing, right?
So like
the social contract is,
is that it's decentralized
and there's 21 million
and that nobody can like
that's where the contract.
If Bitcoin
is still decentralized
at eight megabytes
and there's no such.
And we had a soft fork
to raise it
to eight megabytes,
I don't think
we would be massively
breaking the social contract.
But still
they were not able
to do that. Right.
So it's impossible
that they're going
to be able to do that with a,
with a hard fork.
And then, you know,
there's nothing.
My God, there's nothing
I would love more
than a confrontation
with Blackrock. It will suck.
I love this so much Francis.
Because like my story
is, is exactly the same.
I don't view myself
as understanding Bitcoin
until like that.
The Blocksize wars
and the outcome of
that was like,
Holy shit,
that actually fucking works.
Yeah, and like,
hang on a minute,
the miners aren't
mining for bitcoin,
they're mining for blocks,
and they're totally
the slaves of the node.
Like how what is.
And I think this is why,
Riga 2019 was so special
because all of us
that were there and not that
your random
crypto conference.
But we went to this Bitcoin
only thing.
By the way Bitcoin
first means bitcoins. And
so we were all there
like oh all of the
like the people that have
so many people
that there that were there
that are still
as based
now as they were back then
and just walked the walk
all the way through.
And I,
by the way, for for you.
Yeah.
My mind is all over the place
here,
but I'm going to go
back to the discovery
invention argument like one.
One of my most popular quotes
is for my second
book, and it's called
the One Shot
principle, is my pretentious
attempt at,
explaining why
Bitcoin is unique
in one sense.
In one short,
a couple of sentences,
and it's something like,
absolute
mathematical scarcity
in a sufficiently
distributed,
digital network
was a discovery
rather than an invention.
It cannot be replicate.
It cannot be replicated
by people
aware of this discovery,
because the very thing
discovered was resistance
to replicability itself.
That's how I put it.
Like that's how I view it.
Bitcoin might
not have been discovered,
but but engineered.
But the resistance
to replicability
that that is
what was discovered.
You cannot replicate
the resistance.
The replicability
either works or doesn't like.
It's only one time thing.
So that's. Yeah.
What do you think of that?
Oh I, I totally agree.
And that's also why like
during the four
corners and after
why I'm so like
we only have one shot.
Like we can't,
we can't create
Bitcoin again.
You know, and like
we all have ideas of
if we had been Satoshi
what would we have done?
I have an idea
of what I would have done.
I would have had a much less
aggressive reward schedule.
Right.
I would
probably have had
the rewards schedule
be softer over time.
And because we have 21,
we have 20 million coins out.
Right.
So like the subsidy
is kind of like gone.
So transaction
fees are pretty high.
And, I think that Satoshi,
I think the reason why
Satoshi did this
actually, is
because he understood
that we needed
to bootstrap rapidly,
to protect the network.
And what I would tell
Satoshi is basically like,
by the way, like,
nobody's really
not going to give
a fuck for, like,
the first ten years.
So, you know, like,
there's not going to be
state level
tax for
like the first ten years
maybe, but like
and the reason
why the block
reward is decreasing
is also
because you, you like
want people to come in early.
Right.
You want to
incentivize people
to come in early
with with a block reward
that's decreasing
because you know that it's
going to be much,
much scarcer in the future.
And I would have
told Satoshi,
you know, people will work on
people will mined bitcoin
for fun.
You know, like
we don't need to artificially
incentivize miners
to join the network
so early on.
I mean,
this is just like
my contention,
but you know what?
Like we can't fucking change
anything.
That's a
totally fucking decided,
you know what I mean?
And it's like, it's
is it perfect?
Like,
it's it's perfect
because it exists, right?
So it is perfect
in that sense
because it exists
and it works.
I mean,
it never needed
to be perfect.
It just needed
to be good enough
to last forever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, exactly.
And and it needed to be
good enough to last until
the, it became too
big to be a tax, right?
It needed it.
We needed, like, an
when did it become
resistant to a tax?
Well, at least by 2017.
We know that. Right?
So by 2016, 2017,
it was big enough
to resist the tax.
If the four quarters
had happened in 2013.
It there's like
a much higher chat.
The who knows right.
Who knows
what would have happened.
But it was
it was strong
and resilient enough.
And that's the Rick
replicability argument.
Right.
Which is why people don't get
it's like
we needed to have this period
of organic growth
that you can't replicate.
Right.
And you cannot bootstrap
a blockchain
without centralization.
That's just not possible.
No, it's just
why Mars Coin won't work.
For instance,
like you cannot bootstrap
a new Bitcoin on Mars.
I just don't buy that.
No, no, no, of course,
of course not.
So like we have one shot
and you know
everybody accepts this.
Like the gravity
pull of Bitcoin.
People come to accept it
if they're honest
and if they are self-aware.
A great example of that,
is like,
there's there's a famous
Nostre developer.
I'm not going to name him,
but there's a famous
Nostra developer.
And I've been hanging around
Noster developers
more and more.
And, a lot of them are like
total commies, right?
They are not at all.
They're not at all, like,
based like bitcoiners are.
And,
they're all great people,
you know, they're all like,
they're kind of like the left
wing activist types,
Antifa types
and that kind of stuff
that are into
decentralized networks
for other reasons.
But this guy,
we were,
just three weeks ago,
we were at this conference
in Costa Rica,
and he said something
that was so interesting,
which is
esthetically,
I am so for Ethereum, like,
I like
and the guy has like
purple hair,
you know, and he's,
he's a he's a great guy.
But he said something like I,
I associate esthetically
and culturally with Ethereum.
But I cannot
help being a bit corner.
Right.
I just cannot help
being a bitcoin or
no matter like it's just
and it's just everybody
kind of like realize that
when they it's like
it's the one
and it doesn't matter if,
if there's
the smart contracts
are different
or this doesn't work
the way it I want, then
it's like autistic
nerds are kind of like,
oh, well, ripple is better
because you can have this,
you know,
like none of that.
None of that matters, right?
None of that matters.
What matters is that
there's only one
that can actually work
overtime and, like,
resist attacks.
And you either submit to that
or you get destroyed.
And another great quote about
that is like,
you know,
Paul starts
so Paul starts
it's kind of a
friend of mine, you know,
and I've known Paul for ever.
Like,
I think the first time I met
Paul was in 2014.
And, you know,
we drank together,
like back in the day.
So we go way back,
and I actually
really like the guy, like,
I really like him.
I think he's very smart.
And I think he's
probably one of the people
in the entire world
that understands
Bitcoin consensus.
The best
I have
I have no doubt
that if he really, truly
wanted to force his soft
fork on Bitcoin,
I think, I think that
he is probably,
under knowledgeable of how
the, the,
the loopholes of consensus,
the loopholes of USSf
and the loopholes of are
and all that dynamic.
Like he's he's very,
very smart.
I have no opinion
on that 300.
By the way,
I am absolutely
neutral on it.
But not
and that's the way
that consensus
works, by the way.
It's like
if I'm neutral on something,
it's not going to happen
because I need to
be able to willing
I need to be willing to die
on that hill. Right.
And I will die
on the hill of a,
speedy trial.
Right?
I will die on that hill.
It doesn't matter how much
I want confidence, right?
Or ktrv.
I will die on the hill
if you try to
to sneak that in and, and,
and if someone
tries to force it,
I will yourself it.
But he says something.
Money is
the strongest network effect.
Because if
you're on the wrong
network, you die.
And that is the
difference between
languages,
social media,
Http versus Https.
What happens
if you learn the
wrong language?
Like you're not going to die
if you don't speak English?
I love that for me,
I love money.
Money is the strong
because if you're
on the wrong one, you die.
Like, I love that
because money is like,
was handsome.
On top of that said, it's,
the back to that
Hopper quote.
It's the
the the best available.
Insurance for uncertainty.
Like hedge
against uncertainty.
Yeah. And yeah. Yeah.
That's what
that's what it is like.
And that's why
the dichotomy me
the only cents
over time and space.
Like why it's false.
Because it
it needs
the overtime factor
to be able to be
the over space factor
and vice versa.
Doesn't work
if you can't send it
and it doesn't work
if it doesn't hold its value
like it's super simple.
Yeah.
And and and that's the
that's like
the practical logic,
practical arguments for,
Bitcoin maximalism is that
because the
risk of being on the
not the wrong network
is so high,
the default behavior
of everybody
is going to go on the safe
network, right?
The, the one
that is the least,
the one that's
the least likely to cause me
to have zero money and like,
not be able
to feed my family.
So, so
the safe bet is always,
bitcoin.
And then another revelation
also, in my bitcoin
maximalist journey
is, I used to be a
fractional like
Bitcoin maximalist,
where Bitcoin
maximalism is inevitable
because of economic forces
and because of
human rationality
and human behavior. Right?
Human behavior
will lead people
to go to Bitcoin
and everybody,
everything else
is a distraction,
because the market
will essentially
correct itself
by moving
to Bitcoin over time.
And then
the other, side of
it was actually
and this is like where
the toxicity
of like Bitcoin
and all of that came in
and it's like it's
not only
a practical argument,
there is a ethical argument
that we must
destroy this bitcoins
as fast as possible,
like they must
they must be destroyed
for ethical grounds.
Because the existence
and that that arguments came
I was
I was at a party in
like 2018 and
someone I can't remember
exactly the situation,
but someone told me, like,
all right,
so I'm talking about
shit coins,
and someone's like,
all right,
so you say they're all
Ponzi schemes
because everybody wants
to, like,
just pump them and dump them
and, like,
why is Bitcoin
not a Ponzi scheme?
Like, don't
you just want to
like, hold the bitcoin
and also like sell it
when the price is high?
Like, isn't
that what you're
talking about
when you're talking about,
you know,
and you and about deflation.
And then I was like,
I didn't really have
like a really resounding
argument against that
because it is true
that I'm it's true
that I want the price
of bitcoin to go up
and that I inevitably,
at one point
intend to spend it.
And then what I realized,
and I started thinking about,
like the dynamics of it.
And the first thing
I realized was,
I don't want to
buy Bitcoin early
because I want
to sell it for high.
I want to buy Bitcoin early
because it will it it
the amount of time
I think about like
salary right.
Let's say
you make 50 grand a year
a Bitcoin is 100 grand.
I don't know.
These are not the right,
pleasing examples,
but it's going to take you
like two years
to acquire a Bitcoin today
in the future, it's
going to take you ten years
to acquire
a Bitcoin on salary.
So I can acquire a Bitcoin
for ten x less time today.
And and I'm
going to want that bitcoin
in the future.
So I don't buy bitcoin
to sell it
I buy bitcoin
because it's cheaper
for my current self
than for my future self
to acquire. Right.
And and
and I tend to spend it on
goods and services
in the future.
Not to trade traded for fiat.
And then the other
thing about capitalism
is like in capitalism.
And I realized
this really early on
because I started
to do currency
trading at the Bitcoin
embassy like cash to Bitcoin,
and I got into
currency exchange desks
and that for a while
we were like running
a traditional
currency exchange
kiosk with euros and pounds
and, you know, U.S.
dollars, $90 and all that
and, and capitalism
and a purely
capitalist system,
every trade
is mutually
beneficial, provided
that it's not fraud,
provided that
the information is like,
you know,
let's agree
that the information
is is free
and there's no deception.
Every trade is, is
is mutually beneficial.
There's no winner.
There's no loser.
Everybody gets what they want
because it's consensual.
Right.
And I thought about
currency exchange trades.
There is always a loser
in a currency
exchange straight.
There is no scenario
where someone is going to win
and someone
both are going to win.
One currency
is going to go up,
the other is
going to go down.
Someone's going to
end up being a loser.
So if capitalism is good
because both parties benefit
and because
both parties
benefit,
the amount of wealth
increases in the world
through a trade,
generally speaking.
It's a good thing, right?
But a currency exchange
trade is inherently evil.
It's inherently destructive
because one person
is going to lose
every single time, right?
There's no scenario
when what
we're both people will.
If I trade €2 for dollars
and one of them goes
up, the other one goes down
and that's it.
So currency exchange
trades are the only
type of trade
that's like widespread,
which is inherently bad.
Where where
where someone will lose.
So we
we must eliminate currency.
There must be only one
currency in the world.
There must be. Right.
Otherwise we are
letting this kind
of like, evil, destructive
behavior continue.
So as long as
there are
multiple currencies,
there are transactions
that are win lose.
If there is only one currency
in the world,
all transactions
are a win win. And a win win.
Transactions
is something that creates
an a win lose transaction
is something that destroys.
And ultimately,
regardless of the morality
that you have,
whether it's Christian,
whether it's
I believe that
the root of
of morality is creation
versus destruction, right?
Destruction is bad.
Creation is good.
Period. Yeah.
Right. Yep.
So, so like
regardless of religion.
And that's why like,
you know, an atheist,
I think that you have also
strong opinions on that.
And I think
we're 2.5 hours in.
So we want to think on this.
We we go we go Noster
the God debate next time.
Right, right, right.
But but yeah, yeah,
I would say I have a sense
destruction is
is a universal.
I think it's a universal
moral principle. Like. Yeah.
Is that creation is good.
Yeah.
I think like
for just a short
one on the atheist thing,
I am not saying that
I absolutely
think that
there is no God, like
most people
would probably call
me an agnostic,
but I think that's
a bit of a copout.
I would say that
I'm an atheist
in the same sense
that I'm a libertarian.
Like I don't want others
to impose ideas upon me.
I want to come to
my own conclusions.
I want to be in
the driver's seat.
So that's that's the thing.
If there is
and and the word God to me
has so many
different definitions,
every person I talk
to have said
their own definition of it.
So I think the word is
kind of redundant,
like whatever that is.
And I think morality,
by the way,
handsome man,
hope it back to him again.
The argumentation ethics,
perfectly frame it
like it's, it's
if you argue with some
someone about something,
you argue to come
to a conclusion
over a conflict
over something.
So it's communicating
rather than using violence.
And if one if one party
chooses
to discard the argument
and whatever you came
conclusion, you came to
and and violates you instead.
So for instance,
if you have an argument
with the taxman
or during the lockdowns
when you tried
to leave Canada, where
having an argument
with some of the mask
mandate officers
or something,
if you can have a
sound argument
and the guy
can agree with you,
but if they still choose
to enforce that shit,
it's not an argument anymore.
It's mockery
and therefore unethical.
So, and
this is where absolute
property rights come from.
And I think like
we have as humans,
we have two ways of
resolving conflict.
One is words,
the communication speech
and the other is violence.
And there's
this is a civilized way
and this is a barbaric way.
And right now
with inflationary currencies,
there's always
a percentage of aggression
in every single trade
we make
because someone has access
to the money printer.
And Bitcoin removes
that completely. Completely.
You're sure you have to pay
the miners
a tiny fee
to facilitate the thing,
but it's transparent.
There is no fraud.
There is no aggression.
There is no one
that can take advantage
of anyone else.
And and it's
so much more powerful
than people think
because 5000 years of history
have been tainted by
some people
elevating themselves.
Let's say that they're kings
or they're central bankers,
or they're closer to God.
Whatever you choose,
it's all from this
people saying
that they're
better than others.
Like, yeah,
that's where evil.
Evil is
the root of all money.
Like, except Bitcoin.
Yeah, that's
that's the way I view it.
So, so like,
but yeah.
And yeah,
the way that I see
like the moral argument
there is also,
if something allows you
to liberate
more time for yourself,
it is inherent.
That's
and that's
also the definition of wealth
that I,
that I try
to explain to people
like what is wealth?
What constitutes wealth?
Wealth is basically the time
that you create for yourself,
for your future self. Right.
So, let's say that,
wealth must be measured
in terms
of, of your, of your time,
like how, how much time it,
would it take for me
to create a sandwich
from scratch, like years?
Yeah.
Right.
Like like it takes years
to create a sandwich
from scratch,
you know, like,
it's it's not.
It's probably not even.
And with with enough time,
you can do anything. Right.
So it's like if I was
if I was living
a million years, like,
of course
I can create a computer
from scratch,
like, I'm not going to be,
you know, I'm going to be
creating class.
I'm going to be
creating plastic,
and I'm going
to be tinkering,
and eventually I will be able
to create a computer.
But, that's the
I'll say you would create
nothing like.
Oh, right.
Sorry for interrupting,
but this is like
one of my arguments
against God.
If you were immortal
and indestructible,
you would never have
an incentive to do anything,
because it always postpones
everything to the day after.
Of course, of course.
Like, if I was
if I was immortal,
I probably.
Yeah, it
probably would take me, like,
a trillion years to create.
You wouldn't
need the sandwich
in the first place.
I would
yeah, I would, I would
I definitely
would not need the,
the sandwich. But yeah.
So like wealth
is hard to explain
and like I find that
explain wealth
in terms of time
and explaining
the fact that like
do you want more time
or less time?
Is it a good thing
if people more people
have time to do other things?
And this also comes back
to this idea
of like moving away
from the magical pyramids.
It's like it's objectively
it's objectively good, right?
Like deflation
is objectively good
because it allows us
to devote more time
to other things.
And then, you know,
and again,
I, I'm
also like a libertarian.
So I don't really give a fuck
what you do with your time.
Like you,
as long as it doesn't
fucking harm me, you know,
and as long as it doesn't
create a system
which systematically
oppresses
me and, you know, going back
to like also one of my first,
like retail.
So when I got into Bitcoin,
I was still annoy me.
When I got into Bitcoin
I was like a
libertarian normie. Right.
So you know
I'm like your typical
like conservative
Republican style,
libertarian style normie.
And I didn't
really understand it. Yeah.
And like what I was doing,
it's only like
maybe 2014, 2015
where I understood that
by holding,
when the government
creates money
and I decide to hold it,
I give value,
I give purchasing
power to the government.
Right.
So I allow the government
to spend that money,
purposefully and
we finance
the government in two ways.
We give money
to the government
with our taxes,
and we hold
the government money
giving it,
because we are the
we accept to be the bottom
of the Kantian
pyramid, right? Yeah.
We're allowing
them to print it.
So whenever we hold it,
they're printed.
So we're effectively
stealing from our children
by holding fiat. Yes.
We are stealing
from our children
and we are financing
the government.
And what is the government
doing with our money?
They're killing people.
They're repressing people.
So so my framing
and I was like
maybe 25
at the time or something
like ten years ago,
I was like,
if I hold government
money, I'm complicit.
I cannot claim, I cannot
claim to not be complicit
like I, I,
I know that
my money is being used.
I know that my time
and my energy
is being used to kill people.
And I have the choice
to not do that
by opting into Bitcoin,
and I'm not
taking that choice.
So I went full Bitcoin
as a and I didn't have,
you know, I'm an OG,
but by the way,
I was a student at the time.
Like I was getting paid
like 20 bucks an hour.
So I wasn't like
making a big move in Bitcoin.
I was just like,
I'm just not going to hold
fiat anymore, right?
That's I'm just I'm just
I would not hold fiat.
And that's
also the funny argument.
It's the stupidest
argument to me
that you shouldn't
spend bitcoin. Oh really?
What should I spend?
Fiat.
So if I, if I
shouldn't send bitcoin
because Bitcoin
is going to be worth
more in the future,
why the fuck should I
be holding
Fiat in the first place?
It makes zero sense, right?
So when you're spending
you're always spending
an opportunity costs right?
So if I'm spending fiat,
I'm spending
the the
I could have bought bitcoin
with the fiat
that I spent anyway.
So I decided to go
for bitcoin
only I'm like I'm going
to fucking spend
I'm going to spend bitcoin.
I've been spending
bitcoin forever.
But guess what?
I've also been
earning bitcoin right.
So what matters is
that positive Bitcoin
cash flow just like
and what's
what's interesting
with Bitcoin
is like
when you spend bitcoin
you need to fucking make
fucking money fast.
Because if you want
if you want to make it back.
So there's two things
that happen
when you live on a Bitcoin
standard eight you spend less
and B you earn more, right.
So it's like
but the argument
of like don't spend bitcoin
because it's
going to be worth
more is
completely ridiculous.
Because whenever
you're spending fiat
you're spending bitcoin.
Opportunity costs.
You could have bought bitcoin
with the same bitcoin.
So that's like
a ridiculous argument.
And like yes,
maybe it's like
less convenient.
And by the way why
okay so in Costa Rica
we have this thing where
we created
this Bitcoin to fiat real
where you can.
So a lot
let's say like 500 merchants
accept Bitcoin directly.
We also have this fiat rail
where you can spend bitcoin
and the merchant receives
fiat automatically.
So even if
my mechanic doesn't
accepts bitcoin
I can still spend my bitcoin.
And he gets fiat.
And this is
what I had built with
bills in Canada
where the
the reason why I decided
to go on a full blown
bitcoin standard
is because
I discovered this trick,
which is
you can have negative fiat
with a credit card.
That was my first
like I was like,
so because I got debunked
basically, like in 2015,
I got the bank,
I was doing,
I was doing like
local bitcoin trading
and then my personal bank
accounts were shut down.
But my credit card,
ironically, was kept alive.
So the bank was allowing me
to have a credit card,
but not a bank account,
and I was able to pay
my credit card
with bitcoin through bills
because there's allowed
credit cards payouts.
So I was like,
oh, you mean
I can live on negative fiat?
So I don't have the taint
of owning fiat,
but I can still spend
fiat by owning bitcoin.
And like that's
that's
kind of like the thing.
And that's also the thing
that I'm doing in Europe,
by the way.
Like in Europe
we also have bills like with
Bitcoin in Europe.
And that's what I replicated
in Costa Rica.
And I'm replicating it
in Mexico.
So I'm a big fan of
just fucking hold okay.
For me
it's like just
just hold
all your fucking wealth
in Bitcoin.
And you know what?
When it's a bear market,
just earn more money.
Like earn more money.
Get off your fucking earn.
Devil's advocate
question here.
This isn't new Fiat created
every time you go
negative fiat.
So because you're
basically taking a loan
and you need to pay it
back with interest,
and that's how the banks like
conjure up
the new money, right?
So you're actually aren't
you aren't you like
just accelerate in a way.
It's like I'm like
Beth from Fiat.
So so it's a good thing
that way.
But but you're also
creating more fiat
by by going I'm credit.
I might be,
but I'm not holding it right.
I might be,
but I'm not giving it.
I'm not giving you
purchasing power. Right.
So I might be
I might be participating
in the creation of fiat.
You're accelerating
the death of fiat. Yes. Yes.
And I'm not prolonging it
by holding. By holding fiat.
You're prolonging
the existence of fiat.
By borrowing fiat, and,
by borrowing fiat.
And, you know,
either buying
Bitcoin or buying
or, like, not selling
bitcoin, right?
So if you borrow fiat,
you don't have to buy
bitcoin, right?
You borrow fiat,
you spend it
because you're not
spending bitcoin.
So you're holding bitcoin
by borrowing fiat.
Whether or not
you're actually buying it
with your credit card
or you're actually,
you know, buying a coffee
that you otherwise
would have spent
with with Bitcoin,
you're
you're moving the money
from fiat to bitcoin.
And and honestly like,
when I made that decision,
I'm like, I'm
just going to opt out of fiat
and like see what happens.
And that's that's like
my that's like my,
my story of being like, well,
you know, I never invested
in bitcoin actually.
Like I was not
investing in Bitcoin.
I was young and I was stupid
and I was I didn't have kids
and I didn't have expenses.
And I was like,
I'm just going to do this
thought experiments
where I'm just going to opt
out of the banking system
entirely, right?
Still, to this day,
I don't have a bank account
like I have a I have a pseudo
bank account somewhere.
In an undisclosed location,
but I don't actually use it.
By the way,
I haven't used a bank.
I haven't used
a debit card in.
I mean, like
three, two
and a half, three years.
I haven't used a debit card.
I've just been living off
of credit cards
and the Bitcoin standard
on the list and zero.
And, it's just been.
And it's, it's, it's
it's possible to do that now
and that's like
that's that's what,
that's what I do
for a living at this point.
It's like I need.
And that's why Costa Rica has
bought Bitcoin.
There's, there's, there's a
in Costa Rica
although it's huge
in Costa Rica it's it's
by far the biggest exchange.
It's like
and it started out
where I was like,
I need to replicate
what I did in Canada
in Costa Rica
because I want to use that.
Right.
And the same thing
is happening now in Europe.
Where in Europe?
We well,
we replicated
Bitcoin in Europe,
but we also have this thing
where the thing
that the thing
that sucks in Europe
is that people
don't pay each other
with Sepa like at the store,
whereas in Costa Rica,
like they have Sepa,
you pay it at the store
like I go to a grocery store
and I will pay
with the separate equivalent,
like with a bank transfer.
Like not credit cards,
like not debit cards.
People use bank payments
because they're like
SMS based.
So it's like,
you know,
I put your phone number,
it's a bank transfer
that has it's
not an SMS money,
it's a bank transfer.
But that uses SMS
as the communication layer.
So we can't
replicate the
same thing in Europe
because you're not going
to pay your dinner with Sepa
when you go to
the grocery store, right?
You're going to pay
with a debit card.
But, for anything else
like so if because I want to
live in Europe,
I do want to live in Europe
like I, I've,
I've had my time
in Costa Rica. It's great.
I'm going to always
live a large part of the year
in Costa Rica.
But I miss
the civilization of Europe.
Like, you know,
you've been to El Salvador.
It's great. It's awesome.
But think about living there
for five years.
It's it's long, man.
It's like it's long.
Yeah, yeah.
That's why I also like
when I met you in my there,
I was like, yeah,
I mean, I was
there was great
because it's kind of like
it's kind of like
a little jungle
and the little out there.
Yeah,
but all still civilized.
Yeah.
When I went to live there,
I was like, there is fucking.
There was the Beethoven
Ninth Symphony,
which is my favorite
symphony,
playing at the orchestra
of Madera.
And I'm like,
I kind of missed that
because like,
the only thing
to do here in Costa
Rica and I mean, I know
a lot of people
want to move to Costa Rica,
and I highly encourage you
to do that.
It's a great lifestyle.
It's amazing.
Like you'll be healthy,
you can do nothing in
Costa Rica and be healthy.
Like you'll
just become healthy
by living there.
It's hard to explain,
but you will.
You're going
to become stronger.
There's more manual labor.
There's some
the fruits, the meat,
everything's great.
But like,
what is the social thing
to do in Costa Rica?
Well,
you just go to the beach
and watch sunsets, right?
And the sunsets are amazing.
But, you know,
it's I'm like at my
1700 sunsets.
It's like I kind of.
But still
the whole point being
if if I'm a
sovereign individual
and I want to live in Europe,
I need to have a bank account
because I need to pay rent
by car,
I need to do
all those things.
So that's why
we replicated this like bills
in in Europe.
It's because I want it.
My wife is French.
My baby is French.
I'm also a French citizen,
even though I'm
a Canadian citizen.
I'm also a French citizen.
So so it's like
if if
I'm going to live somewhere,
I want to be able to live
on a Bitcoin standard.
And if the infrastructure
doesn't exist
or it's not as good as I
want, I'm going to build it.
Yeah true that but
I Frances this
this has been a
great conversation.
I absolutely love it.
It's always great
to see you and
always great
to see like
to confirm that you have this
deep connection
with other Bitcoiners
that may have, like,
discovered this thing
through a completely
different route than you did,
but you still have these
core values
that are just that.
I just that just resonates.
I absolutely love it.
And if there's anything me
and Luc
can do for, for,
for to help build
bitcoin, take over Europe,
we will be more than happy
with any type
of collaboration.
Anything we can do for you.
We love it
and I hope to see you again
soon at one of
the conferences.
Oh, definitely.
I'm going to be
I'm going to go
project this year.
Yeah, I'm
going to
I'm going to be in Prague
this year.
And like the
the Bitcoin crew
that we have in Europe
is fucking so good.
These guys are
French bitcoiners.
So you got,
Theo Meunier, which is
just incredibly intelligent
and like extreme the base.
And what's funny
is like the bull Bitcoin
team in France is like,
not at all
like the general culture
of France.
It's like
I just got the most base guy.
Yeah, we got Jimmy G
and yeah.
And JJ
JJ is like insanely JJ great.
Yeah, yeah yeah
JJ is hilarious.
So so we got
we got these guys and then,
you know,
we're starting out
so it's available
everywhere in Europe.
But we started out in France
because, you know,
I'm French,
we all speak French.
And what bitcoins.
Well Bitcoin
is like international,
but like still
a lot of us are from Quebec.
So French is like the
the main language
with English.
So it just made sense
for us to be in French,
but in France.
But yeah, man,
I'm like so excited
to start doing
content in Spanish
and Italian
and Portuguese and,
the way that we,
you know, what
we call marketing,
it's like it's
it's really like
there's two things
that, that, that we use
for our mark
called marketing.
It's meetups.
And, and content. Right.
So it's like for me
meetups is the absolute key.
I mean,
I've been running
the Bitcoin.
I don't run it anymore.
But I'm the owner
of the Bitcoin meetup
since 2013, in Montreal.
And like
why do I have such
a deep knowledge of Bitcoin?
It's because
I, I've been to like
I want to say like
300 bitcoin meetups
in my life
or something like that.
And it's my favorite thing
to do. It's, it's like this.
And you've been to,
you know what it is
because you go
to a lot of conferences.
Right?
So you understand that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm made up to like,
this is the way I view it.
Like after
having traveled the world
for a couple of years,
ping ping pong
the conferences
I like Bitcoin
is small everywhere,
but it is fucking everywhere.
Like, it's
absolutely everywhere.
There's a Bitcoin on
every one horse town
in every country on earth.
Like we're everywhere
and we're unstoppable.
Like it's insane.
And the odds,
the odds of you
becoming friends
with, like a random guy
at the grocery store is low.
The odds of you
becoming friends
with a Bitcoin
are high regardless
of what other childhood
you may have had.
Experience
inevitable background
and like you know.
And if if it's a cypherpunk
Bitcoin maxi,
the odds of you becoming
good friends are like
I would say like 85%,
you know what I mean? Yeah.
So it's like
it's like,
no, it's very rare.
It's very rare that I,
that I'm not friends with
a Bitcoin.
I'm actually cypherpunk guy.
And like
it might not be a safe
long term strategy, but I
as you said, like
if I know that
your values are solid
in terms of these two things,
like you are for privacy
and sovereignty
and self-custody
and also you're not
a shit corner, then
I, I'm
going to I'm going to
have a soft spot
in terms of trust. Right?
I'm going to immediately
lower my barrier.
And again,
that's going to be exploited.
So people have to be careful
because anybody can tell you
that they're a
cypherpunk maxi
if they know that that's
what you want to hear.
And I
live out
of the Bitcoin embassy
by people telling me
they were
libertarians, right?
Because I used to immediately
trust libertarians.
And then I realized that
not only
a lot of libertarians
are fucking scammers.
I don't know
if that's the way
when the name of
the game is money itself, it
of course
attracts a ton of scammers,
like 99%,
which is why crypto exists.
But it also attracts
these high integrity,
high intelligence people
that are the tiny fraction.
But they're the best people
in the world.
Like, yeah,
and thank God for open source
software and Twitter
and social media
because like
when I meet someone
and this is something
also that makes talk me it's
the question is like, okay,
what do you do for Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Like what have you built like
show me, you know, like,
and you don't have to be
a software developer, right?
No. Like like, okay.
So you know,
you have content
from your content,
like, you have this.
Show me this, like,
prove to me, like,
what's your proof of work
in bitcoin, right.
So and, you know,
if someone tells me like,
oh well I've just
been holding bitcoin
and doing nothing, I'm like,
okay, I'm not going to
look at it.
I'm not going to
use that against you.
You know,
because it's totally fair.
It's totally fine to just
hold a coin
and do nothing for Bitcoin.
That's totally fine.
But it's not
that interesting.
No, it's
not that interesting.
And I'm not going to have
this rapport with you
because
even though
we are all bitcoiners,
if we hold Bitcoin
there's, there's a
there's a
difference between
a bit corner and like
a Bitcoin builder,
like someone who,
someone who is in
someone who's like I'm
in Bitcoin
and like because it's
my mission,
is different
than I'm in Bitcoin
because I want to
preserve my wealth
and that's
totally respectable
and it's totally fine.
But it's not the same thing
saying no.
And I think like
I can only speak for myself,
but I can't help myself.
Like I needed to be
evangelize like,
yeah, spread
this skeptic's
version of the gospel,
if you will. Like.
That's what.
That's what it's just
I couldn't resist.
Like, I needed to write.
I needed to
get out there
and create content. Yeah.
So it's like it's
kind of like these,
early European,
like monk, monasteries
or something like,
the thing that we have
that bring us together
is we have we have a flame.
And it's hard
to explain what it is,
but, like,
we all have this
burning desire inside of us.
And like,
I see it in
other people, and I'm like,
if you have this burning
desire and I have this
burning desire, then
like, it's it's like there's
you can't have
the burning desire
to evangelize Bitcoin
if you're evil. Right?
It's really hard,
you know,
but we've seen like the,
we've seen the,
we have the truth
goggles thing.
Like we've seen the future.
What it can hold like
we've seen
how beautiful it can be
and what greater costs
to fight for.
I don't know, Francis.
I'm going to have to, like,
stop that. Yeah.
So I got to go to.
The thing is,
I want to say
a couple of other things.
You're coming to Prague.
You said,
I think I'm
coming to Calgary.
I don't know, I don't know.
Oh, shit. Really? Sorry.
Yeah, yeah,
I'm gonna go to both.
It's in the final stages.
I think I'm coming.
We're still negotiating, but.
But there's a good chance,
And I want you to come to.
Or we want you to come to BTC
hell in, August, if you can.
Are you coming up
Baltic Honey Badger again?
Yeah.
The week after in Helsinki.
Oh. Really?
We are.
Luke and I are part of,
organizing this conference
in Helsinki.
And Marty, old man's,
also there.
I'm going to be spending
my summer in Europe, so,
I'll be I'll
definitely be around.
It sounds good to say how
we'll send you
all the details and stuff.
Like,
we'd love to have you there.
The Scandinavians need
based voices.
They need to hear that
there's, there's
another way
than just being a sheep
and saying bye bye
and following whatever.
And the authorities.
I'm.
I'm glad you're
coming to the rodeo.
We're going to
have great fun.
And we're going to give you
a taste of the cowboy
lifestyle.
So, yeah,
mate, X is a proper
fucking cowboy.
Yeah.
So we're we're going to
we're going to do
some redneck,
redneck North American shit,
you know, shoot guns,
blow shit up.
I love to have tons of fun.
All right. It's great.
Is there anywhere on the on
the internet
do you want to
send our listeners
before we wrap up,
other than Bitcoin everywhere
or Bitcoin.com?
Yeah. Well, actually, so the,
well, Bitcoin has
two apps right now.
There's the Canada app
and then
there's the European app,
which are fully
different apps.
So if you want to try it out,
go to app
dodgeball, Bitcoin.com, app
dodgeball, Bitcoin.com.
If you go on
Bitcoin.com,
you're going to see
like a Europe kind of button.
But if you just want to go
straight to the app,
go to Apple Bitcoin.com
and, you know, try it out.
We launched it like
three months ago.
And, it's a new app.
It's not the same
as the Canadian one.
So it's,
you know, it's not in beta.
It's like,
obviously it's functional,
it works.
But if you have
any suggestions
or comments or,
feedback is like
absolutely critical.
And, it's
not like complaining
to Coinbase
where they're just
going to tell you that.
No, like
if you have something
that you don't like
or that you like or something
that's missing,
that you want,
as I say, we're a small team
and like
people would be surprised
how quick we can add stuff,
you know?
Hey, I would like to
have a button here
to do this, like.
Okay, cool.
Like, I didn't think
anybody wanted that, so
I'll just put the button
there like you want it. So.
So it really is,
like dynamic.
And also the
Bitcoin wallet on right now
it's only Google Play.
It's going to be on iOS
as soon as I,
I'm in a little legal scuffle
with iPhone anyway.
Paperwork stuff.
But it's, it's way easier
to create an Android app
than an iPhone app,
I guarantee you that.
But try try to make an app.
There's also a telegram group
when you,
when you download the
Bitcoin wallet,
if you go to settings,
there's a telegram group for
enhancements, comments,
improvements,
that kind of stuff.
It's it's pretty active.
It's actually pretty fun.
So try it out
and then same thing like
we have,
I don't know, 14
engineers working on bull.
We're a lot of engineers.
Half of the team
is engineering. So.
Hey, I would like
this feature,
but just just
don't hesitate to say it.
And there's like
a non-zero chance
that we'll just immediately
put it in if you want.
So bull
Bitcoin app on on Android
download it, join
the telegram group.
Give feedback
at double Bitcoin.com.
If you have feedback,
there's a live chat.
This is actually
my favorite feature
with bull Bitcoin.
We never had a ticket system.
I was always I'm
against customer
support tickets.
There is just a live chat
that's never ending.
So there's no
it's just
and it's a human behind it.
So if if you want questions
just go in the live chat.
I guarantee you someone's
going to answer within
like 30 minutes.
So, give us your feedback,
let us know what you need.
Let us know what's missing.
And, we'll
we'll find a way to
find a way
to put that in there.
Yeah. Right.
Thanks.
Going to
we'll have to
put in the code infinity
for some special feature,
because you can
use code infinity
for all sorts of other stuff
on the internet including.
Oh yeah. Okay.
Cool discount on the tickets
to all those conferences.
We would talk. Yeah. No, no.
So yeah, we'll,
we'll give you a code
and then whoever
uses the code gets, 0.25% off
on the Bitcoin price.
So it's actually pretty good.
So all
you heard it from the man.
Yeah. All right.
There we go.
Thank thank you friends.
This is you.
Have a good evening.
You timelines.
This has
been the Bitcoin
infinity show over and out.